Chapter 2
The Artworks (Fig. 3.) David Salle, Schoolroom, 1985. Oil on Canvas, 93 x 120 inches.
The collages and paintings of David Salle are regularly comprised of women positioned in pornographic and demeaning compositions. At times working directly from pornographic imagery, Salle’s typical motifs depict naked or scantily clad caricatures of women that aim to strip women of their dignity for the sake of emancipation from Salle’s own masculine fragility A reactionary take in the face of a growing modern feminist movement throughout the 1980s that continues into the present day (Rimanelli, 1991)(Schor, 1997). Infamously, the point of convergence of Salle’s work often negates women’s faces, their entire heads or any other humanising aspect of the female subjects depicted. “Schoolroom” (1985)(Fig. 3.) is an exemplary piece of satirical erotic art that portrays a woman pulling her skirt up only to receive a literal ‘foot up the arse’ (right), playing into themes of discipline and degradation synonymous with the teacher/student dynamic. The erotic tension of the right-hand side of “Schoolroom”(1985) (Fig.3.) is palpable and overt tones of fetishisation are evident. One does not see the woman’s face but rather the man’s foot up her ass (Linnea, 2017). The red panel (left) depicts a woman, bent over, and propped up on her elbows with her buttocks and the back of her legs obscured by a man’s face and a nondescript building respectively. Once
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again, a faceless woman is reduced to a demeaning state of objectification, viewed through the lens of the male gaze to be sold as art, a commodity.
(Fig. 4.) Nan Goldin, Bobby Masturbating, New York City [Bobby at home]. 1980.
Chromogenic printed photograph, 20 × 16 in | 50.8 × 40.6 cm.
Nan Goldin’s “Ballad of Sexual Dependency” is a series of photographs shot between 1970 and 1980, featuring Goldin’s social circle in their most intimate dynamics, covering life, love, loss, and the space between (MoMA, 2016). Selected from the iconic works is this particularly tender shot of “Bobby masturbating” (1980)(Fig. 4 ). The idea of male masturbation can unfortunately be seen as vulgar and repulsive, due, in part, to the testosterone-charged, muscle-filled, unsolicited “dick-pics” of the modern 21st century.
“More representations of men in media that do not follow the format of hyper-masculinity is desperately needed.”(Goldin, 1985).
“Bobby Masturbating” (1980)(Fig. 4.) is gentle and personal. It is a warmly lit and tasteful, sensual, and yet perverse look into the innate beauty of an average man allowing himself to be captured in a most compromising and vulnerable sexual act. Bobby himself is unpreened,
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wearing his body hair in its natural state, unlike the waxed, rippling, and airbrushed physiques usually shown in pornographic images (Weiss, 2023).
“If men in media are allowed to be soft and vulnerable, the next generation of boys will be able to feel secure in whatever ways they choose to express themselves.” (Stephens, 2007)
(Fig. 5.) Betty Dodson, Missionary, 1968, Graphite on paper, size unknown.
Paving the way for the pro-sex feminist movement, Betty Dodson (b.1929-2020) was known best for her workshops and manuals encouraging women to get in touch with their bodies and teaching them about female masturbation (Dodson and Ross, n.d.). Dodson’s erotic drawings and paintings tell intimate stories that depict the lustful escapades of men and women both engaging in and embracing pleasure (Dodson, 2011). “Missionary”(Dodson, 1968)(Fig. 5.)
portrays a drawing of a man and woman, forehead to forehead, looking down together in the moment, watching themselves. Their bodies link to make a circle, converging at their heads and genitals. This linking shows an intimacy beyond basic pleasure and despite the man being over the woman, they both appear to be equally immersed in their own perversion and pleasure.
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“I suggest we drop the term “pornography” and instead rebrand it as Sex Art” (Dodson, 2011). The point of art is that it's always a personal vision of the artist and it cannot be judged except by personal taste. Some art will be viewed as good and some as bad. We must remember that either judgement will always be in the eyes of the beholder.” (Dodson, 2011).
(Fig. 6.) A Four Chambered Heart, FUCKED, 2022. Video.
Vex Ashley (b.1989) is not only the mind behind A Four Chambered Heart and all their productions but is often a star in said productions – as is the case in the video in question, here simply titled “Fucked” (2020)(Fig. 6.). “Fucked” (2020)(Fig. 6.) is a pornographic film in stark contrast to traditional stereotypical “female-friendly” content on mainstream adult websites. Often, “female friendly” is a euphemism for soft, gratuitously romantic/gentle, and barely explicit content. “We watch porn for the fucking, not for the romantic tiptoeing” (Paasonen, 2021) a comment seconded by many in a survey done by Finnish women’s magazine Jenny+ (Paasonen, 2021) and a sentiment firmly evidenced in “Fucked”(2020)(Fig. 6.). From the empty and minimalist void-like setting to the mirrors and narcissus pool framing the sexual acts being captured, everything here is focused on the physicality of the sex being performed. Ashley has played with traditional stereotypes within the mainstream porn industry, like a Le Corbusier LC4 chaise longue, and the thigh length and high-heeled boots as the only item of clothing to be worn. The film itself plays into themes of submission and objectification, and the using of one another’s bodies with the aim of one’s own sexual gratification in mind. From the film’s intellectual conception down to its realisation,
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him to his sexual act. Holding a mirror to the long-standing objectification suffered by females.
(Fig. 8.) Sylvia Sleigh, Paul Rosano Reclining, 1974. Oil on canvas, 138.9 x 194.5 cm.
Sylvia Sleigh (b.1916-2010) is known for her progressive figurative portraits that play with conventional gendered poses, particularly male portraits in effeminate positions, exploring stereotypical gender roles and societal views.
“I had noted from my childhood that there were always pictures of beautiful women but very few pictures of handsome men so I thought that it would be truly fair to paint handsome men for women.” (Sleigh, 1995).
The artist notes that a sympathetic look at the naked man as perceptive and cherished beings was absent in Western art and has endeavoured to fill this gap. The nude, figurative portrait of ‘Paul Rosano Reclining’(Sleigh, 1974)(Fig. 8.) has Rosano splayed softly across the canvas, a myriad of shades of delicate pinks frame Rosano’s unashamedly hair-covered naked body. Special consideration has been afforded to the painting of Rosano’s every hair, creating a powerfully soft texture to the painting and further highlighting the subtly feminine tone carried throughout. In Sleigh’s painting of Rosano (Fig. 8.), in particular, reversing traditional roles and placing the man as the Aphrodite-esque muse was of specific importance.
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“Sleigh satirically juxtaposed the idealised stances traditionally given to gods or figure-heads with commonplace contemporary settings.” (University, Stanford and California 94305, 2016)
(Fig. 9.) Story of O, Pauline Reage, (real name Anne Desclos), Novella published 1954.
“Story of O”(Fig. 9.) by Anne Desclos (b.1907-1998), under the pseudonym Pauline Reage, is a dark-erotic piece of literature written by a woman in the 1950s during a time of women’s sexual repression alongside the struggles of women in building careers. It depicts the story of a young woman’s journey into the world of BDSM, willing but coerced sexual slavery, and her complex desires. Although the book is problematic in its relationship dynamics, it is important to understand that sexual fantasy is not black and white. The ethics of desire are multi-faceted, and the female gaze is too often assumed by society as rose-tinted, or that as feminists we are doing ourselves a disservice if we have submissive or rough sexual fantasies.
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“Porn, like all other creative work, acts as a mirror that often reflects our cultural consciousness and it’s absolutely true that consciousness is still to this day deeply embedded in misogyny, racism and inequality.” (Vex, 2020)
In the proposed exhibition, this literary piece (Fig. 9.) will be displayed as a quiet curtained space. An individual can spend time with a copy of the book in privacy, hidden from the view of others. A space where the reader can explore these themes without the judgement of others.
(Fig. 10.) Nancy Grossman, Heads, 1960-1990. Leather and wood, 31.80 x 19.00 x 23.10 cm
Nancy Grossman is renowned for her evocative works utilising discarded leather scraps. For instance, the famous Grossman’s ‘Heads' (1960-90)(Fig. 10.) are particularly acclaimed for embracing the medium in which the artist works to create masculine features and characteristics regardless of Grossman referring to these as portraits of the self. It’s widely noted that an abundance of the masks in “Heads''(1960-90)(Fig. 10.) share features traditionally noted as masculine and evoke relative overtones which masculinity traditionally embraces. Furthermore, in this context, they are examples of undisputedly fetish-centric virility and cut-and-dried ruggedness. Masculinity aside, it’s important to cast a light on the complexion of identity and gender censorship, fluidity and transience that is intrinsic to mask-wearing. Heads of carved wood are constricted and enveloped with moulded leather and adorned with metal zips and details, reinforcing stereotypically masculine energies evoked via even the choice of materials (Fig. 10.). When viewing Grossman’s heads through the explicit lens of the BDSM community, one finds that the sexually fraught enigma of
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sensory deprivation commonly associated with the “gimp” is impossible to escape. This parallel is made even more pertinent when Grossman’s own complicated life is regarded (Zucker, 2017). BDSM can and does provide a safe space for the reclamation of consent and trust damaged by past abuse and the celebration of one’s control over one’s trauma (Simula et al., 2023). Further exploring the evident connotations of BDSM and hypermasculinity captured within Grossman’s “Heads” (1960-90)(Fig. 10.), the “leather-daddy” is another icon that is suggested. In contrast to the submissive nature of the “gimp” the “leather-daddy” is powerful and in control of any given situation, in the context of the art this implies dominating over oneself and one’s past. These heads (1960-90)(Fig. 10.) are deliberately constricted. The senses are denied functionality through the use of zips and ties, thus illustrating the lack of voice and control often associated within abusive relationships.
(Fig. 11.) Cindy Sherman, UNTITLED #256, 1992. Chromogenic print, 171.5 x 113cm
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Cindy Sherman (b.1954) is known primarily for her self-portrait work. This installation, “#256”(Sherman, 1992)(Fig. 11.), produced by Cindy Sherman in 1992, forms part of her “Sex Pictures” collection featuring medical dolls which have been dismembered and reassembled, modelled morbidly with the aim of exposing a discomforting and scathing criticism of a misogynistic culture of sex obsession and violence (Gaylord, 2016). In particular, #256 (1992)(Fig. 11.) shows the axeman/executioner extending a hand in invitation to the viewer to lie with him. His reclined pose is telling, his legs are splayed, and all lines point to the focus of the picture, his genitals. He is confident, relaxed, and shameless. The axe, a symbol of violence, is a silent threat, obvious but in the background. With a lack of expression shown from a hidden face, the eyes give a blank, cold stare. The dark and shadowy lighting has a foreboding aura in keeping with the theme of many of the works within “Sex Pictures”. The line between seductive temptation and outright repugnance is walked with many of Sherman’s dolls. #256 (1992)(Fig. 11.) in particular is a prime example of sadism and fetish converging in stout disapproval of conservative censorship, while simultaneously playing on over-sexualisation of the body (Jones, n.d.).
(Fig. 12.) Joan Semmel, Erotic Yellow, 1973. Oil on canvas, 72 x 72 inches.
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The immediately obvious focal point of “Erotic Yellow”(Semmel, 1973)(Fig. 12.) by feminist artist Joan Semmel (b.1932) is perhaps one of the most intimate and – certainly in the context of heteronormative sexual relations – forgotten about areas of a man. The bright pink heat of the woman lover’s hand contrasts with the muted yellow of the submissive male lover’s perineum (Fig. 12.). The placement of the lover’s hand suggests the instigation of sex, the ownership of the male lover’s pleasure as well as the considered conservation of his dignity in the face of the voyeur’s perspective. The anus and perineum of a heterosexual man are all too often a black-listed area during intercourse, perhaps due to a fear of emasculation and the vulnerability associated with submitting to one’s lover (Weiss, 2018). Misogyny, and therefore ‘normality’, dictates that it should be males that have control over the act of penetration and so the mere suggestion of it in “Erotic Yellow” (1973)(Fig. 12.) is powerful in its own right as it places the power in the palm of the female lover’s hand.
“I was convinced that the repression of women began in the sexual arena, and this would need to be addressed at the source.” (Semmel, 2015).
What is relevant still is the palpable pleasure of the female lover as she leans into her man’s body, savouring his satisfaction (Fig. 12.).
This piece stems from a wider series of photographs from which she produced these erotic paintings sharing the overtitle of “Fuck Paintings” in which Semmel has aimed to remove the fetishisation of the female form and bypass the male-centric power dynamic depicted prevalently in erotic art (Gouma-Peterson and Mathews, 1987).
“Images of sex, so often depicted from a male perspective whether for overtly pornographic purposes or with greater prurience in the high art context are in Semmel’s work reconfigured from her perspective as a woman witnessing, capturing, and interpreting the act.” (Semmel, 1971).
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Chapter 3
This chapter is framed around the primary research carried out through an interview with the UK's prominent sex museum curator, and erotic artist, Deborah Sim and backed with research from the book Sex Museums: The Politics and Performance of Display by Jennifer Tyburczy (Tyburczy, 2016).
In discussion with Deborah Sim (Totten, 2023), the topic of how to display and curate the erotic, and the difficulties inherent in doing so, were discussed. The lack of erotic art within public spaces is due to several areas of public concern such as funding issues – would the average man on the street want taxpayers’ money spent on such contentious explicit content?
Further issues Deborah highlighted in trying to exhibit the erotic, besides funding issues, include work being taken down due to complaints and legal requirements within the U.K. The recent shift to the populist-conservative right hindering freedom of expression and expanding censorship making it more difficult to bring exhibitions to the public were also discussed (Totten, 2023).
Where legality is concerned, as recently as 2023, government censorship policy in Scotland has become more restrictive. ‘The Edinburgh Museums and Galleries: Policy Renewals 2023-2026’ legislation states:
“Exhibitions will only be considered for selection if they demonstrate that they fulfil one or more of the aims and objectives of this policy and the remits of the various venues. For further guidance on how to submit an exhibition proposal, please contact the relevant venue.
‘MGE’ reserves the right to refuse work that may be deemed controversial or offensive to its staff and visitors.” (Culture and Communities Committee, 2023).
While censorship has its place, what is deemed acceptable, particularly surrounding sex, varies from generation to generation and household to household. Taking one of the first interracial kisses in film and TV into account - in the 1968 Stark Trek episode “Plato’s Stepchildren” television programme executives were inclined to change the script regarding Captain Kirk and Uhura’s kiss so as not to elicit backlash from reactionary conservatives
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(Han, 2022) This is a prime example of a situation in which censorship wouldn’t have been progressive.
In the context of the art world, platforming voices speaking for social justice and sexual and personal liberation inherently works to the benefit of not only the marginalised communities represented via the art but also to the expansion of the collective consciousness of all (West, 2018). Where over-censorship is concerned, these same voices for progression and liberation are all too often the ones being de-platformed and are unable to be heard as a result (Asare, 2020). In discussion with Deborah Sim, it was noted that not only was she refused funding from the National Gallery because her work was of a sexual nature but upon consulting the archives of the National Gallery, she found searching the word “rape” yielded a staggering 33 results of separate depictions relevant to the search term (Totten, 2023).
DS - “I put the word rape into the National Gallery website, and it comes up with 33 hits on rape being depicted within the National Gallery. So, I said, well, that's really interesting because my objects are, you know, they're much more complex than that. They're stories of sex, but they're not explicit.” (Totten, 2023)
This is, simply put, a gross double standard.
A historical, and one of the most prolific examples of censorship would be the fig leaf covering the groin. Adam and Eve, famously shamed by their nudity after eating from “The Tree of Knowledge” (Taylor, 2011) adorned themselves with fig leaves (Gotthardt, 2018).
This is widely acknowledged as creating a knock-on effect throughout art history wherein subjects depicted in paintings and sculptures have their ‘modesty’ obscured by fabric or foliage, notably the fig leaf with its established biblical connotations of sin. In more recent human history, take Michaelangelo’s (b.1475-1564) “David” (Michaelangelo, 1504)(Fig. 13.) into account. The original sculpture was finished in 1504, a naked male figure. A scale cast was made for the eyes of Queen Victoria, and in true puritanical Victorian form, a fig leaf was cast to conceal David’s genitalia. This artistic “moral” veil survives today in the council restrictions to what can and cannot be exhibited (Jankowicz, 2017).
The Fig Leaf (Fig. 14.) from Michelangelo’s David (Fig. 13.) introduced the “Seduced” (2007-08) exhibition at The Barbican in 2007-2008 with a clear invitation to consider “Seduced’s dialectic of expression versus repression acting as a kind of pantomime argument
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that only makes its plethora of sexual variety stand out in even sharper relief.”(Jankowicz, 2017).
The metaphorical fig leaf of censorship expands and shrinks alongside the ebbing and flowing of the changes to political correctness and moral fashions to this day
The use of “David's fig leaf”(Fig. 14.) to open the "Seduced” (Barbican, 2007) exhibition of erotic work was a clear statement against the censorship of expressing sexuality within art. The curators, against censorship for the most part, have applied their own censorship by choosing works that did not display aggressive violence or exploitative works, consent being their key to what was deemed appropriate or not to them (Jankowicz, 2017).
“Seduced” (2007) is a prime example of the curators making an effort, where they can, to include the female perspective in spite of difficulties posed by a lack of female work made available as a result of historical censorship and marginalisation. In the case of Andy Warhol’s (b.1928-1987) “Blowjob” (Warhol, 1964) (Fig. 15.) and the curatorial juxtaposition of "Requiem” by Kr Buxey (b.1967) (Buxey, 2002)(Fig. 16.), both pieces show men and women climaxing respectively bringing stark attention to the lack of female pleasure documented candidly and considered throughout history (Leite, 2007).
As a gallery space, it has been noted that “Seduced” at the Barbican had a less clinical and pretentious atmosphere the night that ‘Torture Garden”, the fetish club event, collaborated. “I visited on the night when the London club night Torture Garden was the guest event, and any pretence of an atmosphere of sober, historical reflection were whisked away entirely by gaggles of fetish clubbers and innumerable couples on dates.” (Jankowicz, 2017). This cultural phenomenon and celebration of sexual art history allowed for the spectators to transcend the art pieces themselves, becoming part of the exhibition in their own latex-clad right.
Where the inherent explicit nature of displaying curated erotic artwork is concerned, the policing of exhibits by galleries themselves conforming with censorship laws and public pressure is a constant variable. This can be circumvented, within reason, by using explicit content warnings and age restrictions to preface artwork being displayed.
“Warning signs are museum labels that can precede and shape museum visitors' interactions with the objects beyond them. The advent of warning signs marks a recently institutionalised
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but rarely discussed museum practice and a post-culture war strategy for managing the public display and consumption of certain kinds of controversial material in museums.” (J Tyburczy, 2016).
I inferred from Deborah Sim in our discussion, that even in exhibitions in private gallery spaces, from her experience, that censorship was still applied by men who objected to being confronted with the erect penis, yet the substitution of an artwork of a female figure with a rose inserted into her anus was seen as an acceptable substitution (Totten, 2023). This is an example of mundane misogyny fed by male vulnerability.
DS - “It took one weekend before the whole show came down. Then I had to put it back up again. Then I had to re-redo it.” (Totten, 2023).
Helen Gorrill (b.1969), author of “Women Can't Paint: Gender, The Glass Ceiling and Values in Contemporary Art” (Gorrill, 2020) and dissertation tutor of the author, when discussing the public reaction to her degree show exhibition (Gorrill, 2009), stated:
HG - “Look at what happened to me, nobody would have bought my work if I hadn't been censored, because then everybody wants to know why your work's been censored. So actually, if it happens, you've got to turn it to your advantage.” (Totten, 2023).
In this case, Gorrill’s exhibition of paintings depicted BDSM-like dynamics, with the artworks of male figures on the floor in submissive positions and female figures standing over them, leather-clad, and in domineering stances (Gorrill, 2009). Due to complaints, the police stated she must use explicit content warnings. This worked in Gorrill’s favour as it gained media attention due to the controversy of the content and therefore notoriety for an artist at the start of her career.
Therefore, as a result of this triangulated research, the exhibition will be staged in the Dundee Contemporary Arts Centre. The DCA is a popular cultural hub with requisite footfall to boost the message of the exhibition to both a specific and broader public audience, potentially reaching an audience that may not have considered the disparity between male and female representation in erotic art. There is access to an enclosed gallery space, allowing close
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control i.e., the use of explicit content warnings, so helpful in publicising Gorrill’s exhibition (2009), in the 18+ environment required.
The Phallological Museum in Reykjavik was considered as an exhibition space, due to the sexual nature and focus on the phallus, but the laws surrounding pornography in Iceland (Asta, 2014) are far stricter than in the UK and as a result the exhibition would be breaking Icelandic law (Asta, 2014). Therefore, the decision was made to hold the exhibition in a place where such censorship would not occur. This allows the first hurdle of legality to be surpassed, the exhibition to be staged, and the second hurdle of acceptable popular morality to be challenged secure behind the barrier of 18+ controls. Additionally, when the moral controversy begins, this can be utilised as an advantage as any publicity is arguably good publicity and it will result in the exhibition bringing the argument of misogyny within erotic art into public discussion.
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Chapter 4
The Layout of the exhibition begins in (Fig. 17.), as shown below. The exhibition is introduced with David Salle’s “Schoolroom” (1985)(Fig. 3.), which creates a baseline in which all other pieces within the exhibition can be seen in contrast with. As the opening piece seen on the right upon entry, the misogynistic male gaze is framed and established instantly Forthwith all other subsequent pieces should be considered in juxtaposition. Due to its positioning one can assume the least amount of time and consideration will be spent upon “Schoolroom” (1985)(Fig. 3.) as footfall enters. The average person will see a room full of vibrant erotic art that far exceeds the depth of Salle’s piece and move on swiftly, as intended.
After viewing “Schoolroom” (1985)(Fig. 3.) following the same wall will lead you naturally to a particularly soft and intimate depiction of a nude man through the lens of the female gaze in Sylvia Sleigh’s, “Paul Rosano Reclining” (1974)(Fig. 8.) contrasting the prior Salle piece. As post-entry no flow will be enforced through directions (Fig. 17.), and if the wall is not followed, attention will almost certainly fall upon a lone example from Nancy Grossman’s “Heads” series (Grossman, 1960-90) towards the centre of the room (Fig. 17.). The clear theme of androgyny and sensory deprivation the piece connotes is intended here to be interpreted as a scathing commentary on all of our own censored sexualities and expression, drawing inspiration from the Barbican’s “Seduced” exhibition (2007)
From here on voyeurs in attendance have free reign to explore the contents of the exhibition noting that, as seen in (Fig. 18.) the furthest corner from the door is reserved as a quiet reading space (Fig. 20.) for the erotic novella “Story of O” by Pauline Reage (Reage,1954)(Fig. 9.). (Fig. 20.) shows in more detail the reading space envisioned with its one person seating area for consumption of “Story of O”(1954)(Fig. 9.). The artwork I have selected for being most closely adjacent to the discreet reading room is a hushed and soft charcoal piece seeping with intimacy depicting a heterosexual couple revelling in their intercourse named “Missionary” (1968)(Fig. 5 ).
As seen in the floorplan in (Fig. 22.) the viewing room for Screening “Fucked” (2020)(Fig. 6.) is in the most secluded part of the exhibition space, for the most explicit piece(Fig. 6.),
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unable to be seen without directly entering the space seen in (Fig. 21.), this will play on a loop in a dark cinematic space with a bench for the voyeurs.
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Fig.
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19.
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Fig.
Fig.
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Fig. 20
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Fig. 21.
Fig. 22.
Conclusion
Throughout art history to the present day the lens of the female gaze has struggled for its time in the limelight. Oppressive and dated societal standards have created a seemingly infinite regression in which the perspective of women has not been afforded the time and respect it deserves and thus has not been platformed to wider audiences - perpetuating the patriarchal despotism in keeping with a misogynistic society’s historically considered best interests. What we see through the curation of a vibrant tapestry of women’s art depicting the women’s viewpoint is a more nuanced and inclusive view of female sexuality and a more empathetic view of men than they afford themselves. Sexuality is one of the most natural and intrinsic qualities of life and through the language of it a different way of understanding the world can be achieved. Power dynamics, empathy, consent – all vital when sex is considered and when understood completely, aiding a wider world view.
The selection of the DCA as a public gallery space projects the message of the exhibition beyond the typical niche to a popular community cultural hub and to a more comprehensive audience that perhaps have not considered the negative impact of patriarchal views within erotic art Hopefully this leads to a deeper understanding of a more extensive spectrum of female sexuality and greater consideration of men as vulnerable and complex sexual beings beyond traditional hyper-masculine ideals amongst viewers.
The curation of the artworks chosen, together give a balanced and full spectrum of women’s opinions of heterosexual men’s sexuality, - from a scathing view of sexual aggression through Sherman’s “#256” (1992), to the empathetic and softer view of masculinity through a man in his natural state in Sleigh’s “Paul Rosano Reclining” (1974) In spite of their differences each piece has its own individual offering to the broader image of female sexuality, drawing attention to the need for more understanding and empathy towards all genders.
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Appendices
Glossary
BDSM - bondage, discipline (or domination), sadism, and masochism (as a type of sexual practice).
Cis-gender - A person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex registered for them at birth; not transgender.
Dark-erotic - Dark romance or erotica features horrific elements, non-heroic characters, and/or distressing situations.
Dick-pics - a photograph that a man has taken of his penis.
Female gaze - The ways in which women and girls look at other females, at males, and at things in the world. This concerns the kinds of looking involved, and how these may be related to identification, objectification, subjectivity, and the performance and construction of gender.
Fetish - An object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression.
Gimp - a sexual fetishist who likes to be dominated and who dresses in a leather or rubber body suit with mask, zips, and chains.
Heteronormative - denoting or relating to a world view that promotes heterosexuality as the normal or preferred sexual orientation.
Hooligan - a violent person who fights or causes damage in public places.
Jingoistic - characterized by extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.
Kink - Unconventional sexual taste or behaviour.
Leather daddy - a burly man who likes to wear leather either as a subset of the BDSM community, a genre of gay sexual expression, or both.
Macho-sexual - A strong or exaggerated sense of traditional masculinity placing great value on physical courage, virility, domination of women, and aggressiveness.
Male gaze - the perspective of a notionally typical heterosexual man considered as embodied in the audience or intended audience for films and other visual media, characterized by a tendency to objectify or sexualize women.
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Phallocentric - Focused on or obsessed with the phallus or biased towards cultural assumptions of male dominance symbolized by the phallus.
Sadism - the tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.
Voyeur - a person who gains sexual pleasure from watching others when they are naked or engaged in sexual activity.
Appendix 1 – Transcript of discussion with Deborah Sim
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:03
Yeah, but that's also unruly. So, but this could go anywhere, couldn't it? So I've looked at your questions and what you're trying to do.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:15
Now, if you don't mind.
I mean, I've got things I could send you 'cause my dissertation for my master's is, Was looking at it, touched on what you're doing, but it looked at something quite different, which was how female artists’ show their relation to origin, so that's to the mother or to woman.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:42
Yeah. OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:44
So it but it touched on the idea obviously of the male gaze and then. How to? Because people just use buzzwords of subverting the male gaze and all this sort of stuff. I I some young women who.
Hannah Totten (Student) 2:01
I do find male gaze and female gaze kind of over saturated in the way it's used, and I think it's. It's interesting the. I mean for, sorry I've interrupted. I'll say it very quickly, I I've found.
Hannah Totten (Student) 2:18
The because I'm looking at like the body. Like anatomically speaking, I talk about a lot about like male and female, but for my I'm obviously I'm talking about like. Cisgendered men and like cisgendered women, predominantly. In within my work, I don't really touch on like gender diversity too much. Not because I'm trying to exclude it, but like it's very…
That's a very wide stance to take for seven thousand words, you know.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 2:50
It it is and I'm… I mean, maybe I'm quite controversial on this. I don't know. It's quite tricky, you know, I had to give a talk at Kingston Uni on LGBTQ history, and I did think, Oh my God, I'm going to get blacklisted or something here. But, you know, for me, I studied semi masters in psychoanalysis, history and culture and I specialised in gender studies and visual culture, so a lot of what I well, a lot of it, is my observations, but also looking at psychoanalysis as a way to understanding but…
Deborah Sim (Guest) 3:27
Even by, you know, being gender neutral or whatever you'll do, you're still taking gendered ideas of what is feminine and masculine to. So I don't see. I mean, I find that the binary I might have to get leave the room. So you have to leave the room if you start working. Right. OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 6:31
Yes. So personally, you know, I have problems with that. So, I was just interested in. So you said, looking at the male body from. But I guess from what you're saying is a female gaze, but I don't quite get. Do you want to just talk to me just a tiny bit? just about this. What you're trying to do here if you don't mind.
Hannah Totten (Student) 6:58
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think within my own art practise, I am wanting to create work that's looking at the male body in an erotic light.
You know, but stripping back the like kind of man-made, and emphasis on the “man”-made part like ideals of, you know, like power and dominance and phallocentric centric imagery that men artists have predominantly put into art of the male body.
Think that also it's, you know, females like women's sexuality.
Is very, very often viewed, especially in like the mainstream as like you know, if you look at mainstream porn sites like Pornhub for instance, it's like there's like a woman's category and it's all like soft-porn and like beating about the, like the room of, like, sex and it kind of like, I find that quite. Not allowing like kinks and nuances and like extremities of like sexuality to be explored. And kind of like assuming that women are very like soft and like.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 8:19
But do you not think you don't mind butting in here, that this is again? Is it this is made by men to fulfil their fantasy of women because quite frankly, I can put you in contact with RAM books. I don't know if you've ever come across RAM books.
Hannah Totten (Student) 8:28
Yes. Yes, exactly. I think it's entirely misogynistic. I don't think so.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 8:41
They are on Holloway Rd. They're like one of the biggest.
All the girls, but it's one. It's owned by a guy who I know and I'm really keen on them. I think they're just great. But the women who work in there, they're just fabulous. So I really like them a lot and they have one of the biggest archives. I'd probably the biggest archive of porn outside of the police archive. I have **** in the UK. And they have said that something like, not like now they've got fetish everything, right, it's their thing. It's fetish. I think now 80% of their clients are women in their 20s and 30s.
Hannah Totten (Student) 9:15
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 9:24
So the whole thing has moved about.
So you know, I think that you know that it's, you know, that's not something that is manufactured, that's people going in and of their own free will. And it's not you know. So I think that that might be interesting to you know to offset that against you know what the reality of this is. I was also going to say that one of my favourite things I've had a few arguments about everything we're going to talk about.
One was fine. I recently had an installation in this private members club which we can talk about a bit later because there's a few of your questions are related to it and I've never done that before in a private members club. I've given talks but never had an installation and I was really shocked at some of the editing that I had to do in there, but one of the things that this guy came down, he'd just given a talk. Oh, God. Anyway, just given a talk upstairs and he started talking to me about female sexuality and about how you know women were, you know, wanted exactly what you're saying here this there is there is a certain thing about women in romance because, you know, women's romantic novels of the 18th, 19th century were. For women, because women do have this, which cannot be denied.
Hannah Totten (Student) 10:56
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 10:56
Storytelling thing that they will start telling as soon as they have had sex with somebody, and I don't know whether that's biological or being entered. And I mean, I think these things need to be looked at, but in the Middle Ages, it was completely the opposite where men would think that women, because of their high sex drives, were nearer to animals than they were, and they had a superior control of their sex drives. So you know, yes. So these things are of a time, and of a narrative that people want. So these things change. So I think you know.
He just he couldn't believe that I was saying that is true. I'm fine. I could sit. Maybe you could look into that. But it is. It's definitely something. Somebody, one of the women from Cambridge was giving a talk on on it.
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And I remember thinking, oh, my God, this is incredible. That females were thought of next to animals because they have such a high sex drive in the Middle Ages.
Hannah Totten (Student) 12:01
I absolutely love that. That's fantastic.
Hannah Totten (Student) 12:06
Because, you know, I think obviously men, for the most part will view women's sexuality as very, like, soft and romantic.
And its much more.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 12:18
In reality though, do you have you found that?
Have you? Is this a myth?
Hannah Totten (Student) 12:23
What men? Thinking that?
I don't if it's like a more of a mainstream media thing of how female sexuality is portrayed as opposed to in personal life.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 12:36
In our in, in films and in TV programmes now as being.
As being the predator more, and I mean the problem is they still portrayed as being manipulative. This is the problem.
Hannah Totten (Student) 12:51
Yeah, through using sex.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 12:53
Yeah, this is the problem.
Hannah Totten (Student) 12:53
Yeah, yeah, like villains that, use sex to manipulate, yes, yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 13:00
So yeah, I think anything I would say is, about that, because I do think That it's really difficult when you're putting yourself into the position that you're doing here is that you don't. It's very hard to be completely honest.
And still take a standpoint, and be passionate about your standpoint because I do from, from my experience of this is just well not only of women's literature since the 18th century, but that nearly all the girlfriends I know,
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they can switch off it, they can be passionate in bed, just they don't they're not going to be passive etcetera etc. But.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 13:55
They will nearly All tell a story about you know about this person. It's gonna be this part, you know? Like, I like a romantic novel within, like, about 10 minutes. And then, of course, they don't get the call back. And they're still because you can have that sort of that strength of sexuality. But I think we need to not lie about to ourselves as well. On the other hand, that we do that, we want connection or we want something more from a relationship or from Damascene. You know, I think that. It's quite a, you know, I think that I think it's easy to flip something round completely to. Oh, yes. Now what are you saying? You want to be the same as men? Or do you want to be a woman? And what is a woman then? It's a woman. A woman isn't just the same as a man with the same.
Hannah Totten (Student) 14:32
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 14:54
You know, we're seeing just having being. Being what is now conceived as a man which wasn't in the Middle Ages. Something that, that sexual freedom. But it is that sexual freedom to us.
Hannah Totten (Student) 15:09
Yeah.
I think it's interesting because I think also like. Women's like sexual freedom and not being. I think.
Especially in terms of, like men getting into relationships and stuff seems less so. Within like.
The younger demographics, at least because of like casual sex, being easily more easily available to them because of sexual freedom.
Hannah Totten (Student) 15:51
I don't necessarily think that that's always a bad thing because I I mean, I can't speak for all women. Of course, but.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 16:11
Can I say something that came into my head with all this muscle brand thing and I had a conversation with my friend about it is that, you know, I grew up in the ladette culture time, you know?
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 16:29
Got loads of my boyfriend run that bloody magazine loaded. You know, all this awful stuff which I don't agree, which at the time.
We.
And thought that.
We were having, we were, we had sexual freedom. We thought, yes, OK, we're behaving. And actually all we did is deny something in ourselves by just go. Oh, yeah. We're the same as men. But actually we were manipulated and. And it's really difficult to know what the difference between sex positive This is why I'm just saying this line. I think if you it's important to be honest.
To assert you know, you know, I mean, I do think that.
Is, you know when are you? You know, I mean I I love silly popular culture and stuff like this. I I had, you know, do you know zuzak?
Hannah Totten (Student) 17:26
No.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 17:27
Slovak zujic. Oh, my God, I love zuzak. You should look him up his fam. He was my head of department.
Hannah Totten (Student) 17:30
No.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 17:34
And he he does. He does all sorts of things on popular culture and it's it's why I wouldn't knock it. But I was watching. Oh, Oh my God. Celebrities go dating or whatever. And I found it fascinating. I think you can really see what's going on with culture. So they had, like, Lottie Moss, Kate Moss's sister on there. And.
Hannah Totten (Student) 17:53
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 17:55
And I thought it was really remiss of the. The sex therapist or whatever her 20 wasn't. So on. Captain going to Lottie. About Lottie Moss. Oh, you're so sex positive she wasn't. She was in extreme pain. She just thought if she went on a date and said to a man. Do you like ******* or do you like this or said something outrageous or something over sexual that that would that's being sex positive but she wasn't. She was in pain she because she thought that's what.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 18:29
Would get her. Yeah. So why? I'm just questioning on that is I think it's a really important you know decision to make as to how you know, how do you outside of society out of societies.
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Pressures or norms. How do you stand outside of that and get a true real? Idea of. Of you know what is female sexuality?
I think it's tricky.
Hannah Totten (Student) 19:02
Yeah, very.
I have found that when I've been writing that, you know, I feel like there's so many different perspectives and nuances within it that it's kind of hard to take a standpoint. Without being taking my own personal how I feel and you know, I think. And I know I've not really to be honest. I've not actually really thought about the what you said there about women.
Despite being, you know, having like casual sexual relationships making up these. Romanticised ideologies about these men.
I had really thought about that before and I do think it's true.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 19:57
I think in an artist.
Really, when they if they're going to say something. I don't. I think you should say a truth.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 20:11
Whether it's just your own one that it doesn't matter how that can. You know, I think it's important, you know, to think about what is female sexuality not just saying it is, you know, the same as men or we're going to have. I mean, I don't believe it's really interesting because when we did gender stuff, it was like conversations on on equality.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 20:39
And you know the actress. The other idea that no, we do not want equality because equality is not equal. You know, I mean that's that's not I think maybe it's important to to recognise the difference and see how those differences can be measured out to then have an equal situation because all you know, not that I I of course I believe in equal pay. This is not that. But outside of that workspace.
Hannah Totten (Student) 21:06
No.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 21:11
You know what has that led to? It's led to lots of particularly lots of single women who are single parents having to run around, do absolutely everything.
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Or even now that 80% of all chores in the home are still done by women, but they're being told it's all equal, you know? So I think there's sort of.
Hannah Totten (Student) 21:30
Despite equal work hours.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 21:31
Whitewashing this. Yeah, this this. I think that's such a lot of manipulation in everything that I think it's like, it's important to just have a think.
Yeah, because you've got hair. I really. I really loved all these ideas, outdated stereotypes. Say another thing I thought.
About this from framing female perversions. Yeah, there's have you. Have you got that book? I'll photograph when I go back to my own place.
Female fetish. It's really interesting. Have you seen that book?
OK, I will send you some of the stuff because I I I did do something on female fetish and also one of the people who came to arts produced one of the things I put on. I'll send you some stuff. She worked for Skin 2 magazine which is like one of the big first fetish magazines and she said that again 70% of the kink and.
Skin choose they put on were all women.
But in the idea of psychoanalysis and the castration.
Complex, which I'm going to give you some very brief quick thing about because I think it's related to what you've said here, so.
Basically, say looking at men vulnerably I guess is.
You know, not with in a potent directions all over the place all the time, because the problem with.
The so I think so many things just come down the.
Are sort of inherited DNA understanding from our ancestors today is, is, is literally just based on how the physicality is. You know, women are penetrated, they have an internal space. They move differently because of all of these things. And men have the linear, straightforward thinking. They have a, you know, an erection which is an obvious way to understanding what they desire.
Because I know one of the great questions of psychoanalysis on female sexuality. Which is Freud's I think, which I didn't agree with Freud. But I'm just saying it's interesting, as you know, want does woman want? What does woman desire? Because there's no.
Let us know sort of outward physical.
Indicator of desire as there are in in men.
They don't get the erection, so if just if you were to look at it quickly, yes, you your body can move and everything, but it's not.
The very simplistic way of a man's body moves, and so the frustration, just the frustration, fear is the is the same as lack because when So what they say is like that men.
Hannah Totten (Student) 24:23
Yeah.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 24:36
Develop fetish because they.
As a little boy, realise they have a penis that's an appendage outside their body.
And that it can be lost. So this now has high anxiety over it being lost and then they will find an object. I don't know. Like it will go for a high heeled shoe that happens to be knocking around which what it seems to love and that will then become their fetish as a object that will replace you know that replaces the loss of the idea of the penis being lost and that's why he says that women do not have fetish, which is not true.
As we know, but again that's that's finding.
Hannah Totten (Student) 25:16
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 25:22
Something out, you know, like we like, I just said, ran books. All the women in this, the the owner of it said that, you know, it's 70% of the people that go in there now are young women interested in? He said that he'd take out some quite ******** stuff actually in there.
And that, you know to be something. Oh, gosh, I don't know, because they're all we're all within a cultural construct, aren't we? So maybe they're doing it to seem like they're equal. It's very it's. I guess you can only do your best within that. But yeah, so, OK, let's move on because you give me loads of questions and I haven't answered any. I've just concentrated on you. I'm so sorry, Hannah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 27:29
Yeah, I'm just saying that I had. I had to take a showdown a month ago. It was now, and I took it down. Really quickly because I have to beg, steal and borrow anybody that can help me with anything or store all the stuff.
And I had to do it really quickly. And then for the week after, I was like, really depressed because I didn't, you know, because now my existence is an existential problem. My existence is now the museum and being the keeper when I am not there.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 28:01
I now don't know who I am.
Hannah Totten (Student) 28:03
I mean, I I was actually down in London a few weeks ago and I was really hoping to be able to go to the museum. It was said online. It was temporarily closed and I was gutted.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 28:07
Oh.
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I'm on now. I've got them moved and now I maybe I would have been. It would have been stopped by then. I think it finished a month ago.
Hannah Totten (Student) 28:20
Yeah, it was three weeks ago. I was done.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 28:25
OK, I need to check what's going on on that website. Do you follow the museum on Instagram?
Hannah Totten (Student) 28:30 I do.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 28:32
I haven't posted on that for three weeks cause I've been really depressed and COVID, but on that normally it tells you exactly what's going on and if it is up or or down. Because I'm now working on something else so I now know who I am again.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 28:50
It's really funny. I mean, I always get ill. I got COVID last time and I was depressed last November when I took it down last time and again I got ill. It's the same patent happens every time. Because again, people, females are more. I mean.
Have more.
Relationship to their emotional body as well, which I think's really important to remember, you know. So, anyway, enough about me going on about Psychonauts there will. There will be some more coming in. Just to let you know.
So you've asked me.
About I am particularly interested in the people of the red X.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 29:39
Yeah, I think I need to give you more information. Did you look out curiosity if you went on the website which hasn't been updated and needs up, did you look at?
Hannah Totten (Student) 29:48
Yes, all been able to find out really is what's on your website. I think I just so I I'm AI work in ceramics predominantly. And I really love the idea of, like, documenting like secretive. Sexual exploits.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 30:10
And maybe you could make a piece for the museum for the next installation.
Hannah Totten (Student) 30:15 I'd love to. I'd absolutely love to.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 30:17
Oh yeah, let's do it.
Hannah Totten (Student) 30:18 OK, that's.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 30:20
People. Yeah, other people contribute and I've got like about six or seven different academic young academics who have finished their masters and you know, now having to go and work in with the hospitality for a bit. And, you know, they just they they just want to be involved and they're sending me things research, you know, it's good. It's anyway I would. Yeah. I definitely have something in the museum for the next exhibition. Want to make something?
Hannah Totten (Student) 30:49
Yeah, that would be brilliant. I'd love to.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 30:51
Yeah, so so basically, did you look at any of the press at all?
Hannah Totten (Student) 31:01
I'm not sure if I saw.
Related press stuff to the on the website.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 31:20
Even though even though that's not entirely true either. So the last installation I had in. I'll send you pictures of it and little video I made of it.
Hannah Totten (Student) 31:33 OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 31:34
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I had one of the professors of English literature from Leicester University came down to give a talk in the museum and.
Because I'm really interested in having conversations, but real conversations, not. You know, not, you know, talking about the grey areas. That's why I wanted to ask you questions about your work, because the grey areas are the bits that nobody talks about anymore. Talk about the black and white, and I'm really against that. But anyway, she came down.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 32:06
And gave a talk anyway, but her and her partner, her and her wife were looking around and they both professors at Leicester and I didn't have time to tell them anything about the museum. They were just reading.
The Gabriel Lawrence, which is the figurine. So I I make this is my sister's house, so I make. So I make the things in the museum, but then I make copies, replicas for the shop. So here we have a replica of Gabriel Lawrence and an Ivy's. They're like historical novels, you know, I research everything. So get. So Gabriel Lawrence was a milkman. They're nearly all working class histories as well.
Hannah Totten (Student) 32:52
Yes.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 32:53
But you can't see many of them because they're not on that at the moment. And anyway, so they and I don't know, he's got a little Adam's apple. He's dressed as a milk maid, which was very fashionable at the time anyway. So Gabriel Lawrence and I broke his arm in there. So he looks like he's had a journey and everything. And anyway, they read the piece of writing that went with it, and I didn't have time to explain to you how what it was because she was giving a talk. And I thought it wasn't my place to load her with loads of stuff about what it is.
And then I went up to Leicester a couple of weeks ago.
I've just got to say yes, I'm going to say the best piece of writing I have ever read. In short form was the bit accompanying Gabriel Lawrence and I said, Oh yes, I wrote that because I didn't tell it was fictive art, which is what this umbrella is.
And she said, oh, I know you wrote it, to put it on the.
On the Tombstone site I said no, I wrote it and she was like set because the difference between art and academia is so easily summed up.
So when I tell any of my artist friends about what I'm going to do and I say, do I tell the truth or not, they go absolutely not.
And then the academics just go out really like pat in it, apoplectic about the idea that somebody might lie to them. You've got to tell the truth and and say I think, Oh my God, if she really ****** *** because she, you know, that I have. I didn't tell her that this was all.
Effective art project and then and she actually really loved it. And that's why I said if you look through some of the press, you'll realise when people find out that it's effective are. But so basically the people of the red X will
45
see story that I came up with as a way of letting say it's all very well thought through. There's so many threads to this.
Hannah Totten (Student) 34:57
Wait, so the people of the red X is fiction?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 34:57
The the whole thing is is the the research is real. I've spent hours in the welcome. Well, you won't see all the things if I'm going to send you the little book, you'll see some of the more things in that. And I just look for stories that I think need telling.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 35:15
And then I guess because people move around space differently with objects in than if it's a film or or they're they're not going to research all these things in libraries like I have.
Because I find the injustice of history. But you know really upsets me. And so I make these quite controlled pieces to tell really.
Quite dark subject matters.
And the only the way that I could think about I'll send you links and then you can figure out more about it. That the way.
That I could think about how did because you know it, it sounds very plausible that people could be trying to say.
Stories because there is nobody to tell those stories. There's just fragments here and there. And so I thought, oh, no, what about all these crafts? People who wanted to keep their stories of, you know, petition perversion and and, you know, alive. And so they made objects. But I wanted the objects to look.
Very innocuous, like not something that's even related to sexuality or or the body because they then they go under the radar in a way that other things.
Don't like you asked me a question here.
I'm going down the.
I'm going down here. You said something about how? Oh, any tips on how to curate the ******?
Hannah Totten (Student) 36:55
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 36:56
And my answer to that is as if it isn't ******.
Hannah Totten (Student) 37:02
OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 37:04
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You see it's it's it's.
You need. I talk about things in such a because I guess, you know, academics can do that. I'm not an academic because I can't afford APHD, but job. Besides that, when you start talking about, you know, things in touch her autumn new manner.
Then you take away all, you strip away all the.
You know, like 'cause, I don't even know what ****** is any longer. I have absolutely no idea. I don't see things in the same way as other people, you know, like.
Hannah Totten (Student) 37:45
There's more academic interest than anything else, right?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 37:47
Yeah. Oh, I just hear I said, oh, that's really beautifully done. Or, you know, like I, I, the last exhibition I thought, oh, I had something called the wall of sexual heroes. I'll send you some pictures of it. But and I asked people to make things. Some people I've asked them to make things for me and one was.
Was an orby, Beardsley. Do you know Aubrey Beardsley?
Hannah Totten (Student) 38:13 I do actually.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 38:15 Late 1890s.
Illustrate a fabulous I think Aubrey bearsley is incredible. Again, working class guy who. What he wanted to upset the bourgeoisie of the time of the 1890s and.
He he did this by doing, by doing what he thought was the highest form of art in a way, was the grotesque. So he did like, can you see any of his work with, like, giant penises and? What I was going to say about aubrey Beardsley there is you'd asked something about should. Do you feel there should be a space within shows like the? Did you mean the world society? The arts?
Hannah Totten (Student) 39:10
In Scotland at least recent graduates are trying to get into the RSA. That's kind of like the pinnacle of recently graduated artists, and if I'm producing erotic art, there's little to no chance of getting in whatsoever because it's a public exhibition.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 39:35
Yeah, it's really, really, really tricky and I think we're getting more and more conservative.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 39:45
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The one I was going to say is Alby Baresley had a few years ago a show at the Tate Britain and they cordoned off with like a purple curtain.
His more ****** work. So you had to be over 18 or whatever, 16 or 18 to go in. Then have a look at it. Now. When I put this show up the couple of months ago, June in this private members club, I've never done anything. A private members club before. But I just thought I just don't see it in the same way.
Hannah Totten (Student) 40:16
Save 5 members club. What do you mean by that?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 40:18
It's very, very posh. It's beautiful. It's like Soho House.
Helen Gorrill (Staff) 40:58
People have to pay to join and it tends to be like a lot of rich, bankerry people who spend thousands of pounds and then you're able to go and drink there and meet with other rich people. You wouldn't like it, but interesting, you had that you had your show there. Sorry. I'm eating a piece of bread to keep me going. That's fine.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 41:04
Yeah.
And talk on it.
Only because the the curator wanted to do something different and said, oh, this is really culturally important. Think work that I'm doing. So I just got up there, just put it all up, put a few ***** up there embroidered. I was more in more, more enchanted by the beautifully embroidery. I don't. I mean, I don't see things has been ****** anymore. I or whatever they're meant to be. I just see them being beautiful shapes or something. You know, so.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 41:46
Anyway, I had this area that I called cacophony and I thought, oh great, this is where I put them up. Anyway, it didn't take. It took one weekend before the whole show came down. Then I had to put it back up again. Then I had to re redo it. I did manage though to get out because when I do the I take tours around it as the keeper and I really love talking about the history of everything, but also being able to say things like **** rows in a public space, which I've not been able to say since the last show.
Because one of the people who produced this wonderful piece of work, and it had a woman with a rose coming, but that seemed to go by the sensors without anybody noticing, the answer was, well, the ***** that were up there had to come down and I and I replaced them with an ********.
Hannah Totten (Student) 42:40
They're the most offensive always.
Men are so afraid of their cocks being on show.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 42:46
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Yeah, but I think before when I said to you before a hard cock at the same time. It also shows the lack of and the fear of the lack of. So you know I I think it's really interesting. So the arts race I put up there, nobody seems to notice that I had put that up there and taking the cop down except for that, everybody was all right with it, which I thought was fascinating. Plus, I had to go around.
Hannah Totten (Student) 42:58
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 43:17
Soho and do some rude, well obscene. It's called Victorian graffiti where I drew two giant penises cumming.
Hannah Totten (Student) 43:26
I saw the prick to prick.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 43:28
Three, yeah.
Every day I had to go and do two of those and I think it, Oh my God. I'm gonna get arrested or what are they gonna say? But it was in in chalk. I personally chose chalk because I thought, well, actually, it can just be water. It can just be rubbed off.
Hannah Totten (Student) 43:46
Can I just ask real quick the the Museum of sex objects itself? Is predominantly your own art. Yeah, but I did not realise.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 44:02
Yeah.
I like everything. I mean I I'm very obsessional. I will go and choose the right colour. Yellow that I know is used in in the 18th century or. Yeah, so. But anyway there's not very much on there. So when it gets updated you'll see some more and I will send you a Zine because it does need updating. So.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 44:26
Basically, yeah. So I I do everything. Look, even one of the the Winchester geese dish, that's. That's on that. That actually got taken. So that's actually to tell the story of how the church made money on prostitution. And people don't want to talk about it. There's no objects to say that this is what happened. So I thought, oh, we're going to say that this dish was made by Nanda Potter Turner, the 17th century, part time because, you know, women didn't work, didn't go into prostitution all the time.
49
Some people were part time. Maybe their husbands were had an accident or they were off the dock, or they had to. You know, there's not to tell a more clearer story of what prostitution or sex work was like. But anyway, the Bishop of Winchester say Winchester Cathedral, which is down South of England, it was taken down to Winchester Cathedral for the Bishop of Winchester.
To put it on the altar and, you know, sprinkle with some holy water to acknowledge the church's part. Play part they play.
Money getting money from the brothels on the South Bank of the Thames. So these things are activism, pieces in their own right. They go and they go on journeys outside of.
Hannah Totten (Student) 45:49
Was it agreed to?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 45:52
I I I. Oh yes, my friend was doing a PhD on sex work and sex workers rights on the South Bank, and she was at Winchester at not Winchester Uni. Oh, I can't. Whatever it is down. And so she'd asked the Bishop of Winchester because she wanted them. She wanted him to acknowledge and he did agree to it. And I gave her the dish to take down there for it to go on its journey and be blessed. So.
It these objects are quite political in a way, even though they don't look at it.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 46:26
It's all quite political and.
They they try to balance an injustice in the storytelling, you know, but the Bishop, the people of the red X, are literally.
A mythical group of people that I thought how wonderful that that's, you know, they are the people he made. Oh, yeah. So they've got a red X. You know that they go under and everything that's made and all the people have made things for the wall of sexual heroes because I've asked people to come and make things and make it.
A community sort of thing, they embod.
As well, and so that storytelling goes on and on. So it's much more complex than maybe you.
Might have thought.
Shall we go through the next one? How are we? I think we've got. How do you approach exhibiting ****** works in terms of find offensive as as I said.
People complain about it. Find it fact. Yes, they always find the phallus is offensive. And I think because it's a reminder of the of the the loss.
Hannah Totten (Student) 47:37
Yeah, I know, I know. Helen's degree show exhibition got shut down by the police. Predominantly because there was men in these very submissive, vulnerable states, which I think is hilarious but also ridiculous, you know?
I wonder if it was.
The other way round that would have been the case at all. I don't think so, you know.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 48:06
I I think it's if you think about the difference I I actually think we're in a much more powerful position if we were just to realise our power and not all be obsessed by relation to the phallus or to the phallus centric order and just bloody well try and step outside of that because they're the ones that are stuck in this relation to the phallus, which is very stressful.
It's very stressful and as you say, you know, I mean you could get shut down. I mean, I'm very surprised that it's always to do with the palace that everybody gets there. Well, women don't get too obsessed by, but it's always shut down because of that.
So I think that's very interesting. Can you any artist to include including my proposed exhibition, I will have to think about that.
Yeah.
Hannah Totten (Student) 49:00
Sure.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 49:01
I will think about that. What is influenced you to establish a museum at the need to readdress history? Basically you know as I was doing my master's, it was very academic and I just thought as I was doing it, I just thought, Oh my gosh, there's all these wonderful stories particularly like also in the welcome that nobody knows anything about. And even though you have, you know. Got a queer museums and blah blah blah. You normally only get stuff from the 20th century. So I saw and also I want to go further back.
And so I thought, well, why not make them make them and then their conduits for storytelling?
Hannah Totten (Student) 49:45
Yeah. How are you finding? Like the academic research behind? How you're framing these narratives for the pieces that you make, you know, for for so far back.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 50:02 Umm.
Ah, well I what I do is I just tell the story. Say for instance, oh, if we just stick with one thing, because there's or even. Well, when you have a look, I made something that looks so innocuous you wouldn't even believe what it was about.
But can you hear Griffey still going nuts? I don't think I'll have to send you. I'll have to send you. It's got a broken. It's a paper papaya mache. Strange clamp looking thing covered in Victorian paper cup with a with a little butterfly with a broken wing at the bottom. Now it's called a cawtry clamp. Now it looks quite nice to look at. See that went under the radar.
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Nobody actually noticed that. That was probably one of the most horrible things on the whole exhibition. Just obsessing about the ******* penises. I would put something, really.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 51:01
Something that is I would maybe use a smoke screen or something. So with that quarterly clamp. I say that it was a reparational piece made by one of the victims of a guy called Doctor Isaac Baker Brown, who run the London surgical home for women in the 1850s, and he was also the head of the British Medical Association. And he.
For all you know, what we could call, well, all women's diseases. So hysteria. Menopause. Period. Problems, ************. Whatever you want to say or. The women would be sent there and they would have their clitorises cut off.
Hannah Totten (Student) 51:48 Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 51:49
So they had kleptonedectomies, which we don't ever speak about in this country, which I thought was important, that we own that as well and don't just go, oh, Africa does that. No, we also did this. This is quite an important thing to look at. You know, the seat of pleasure in women that is so frightening that it needs to be removed, you know, and has done throughout the centuries in different cultures. You know, so that looks like a. But what? I'm so that.
Information.
I I went through his Med. I went through his journals and books in the welcome, and then I tell the story. But which is what we all have to do in some way with the information we get is make a decision. But I don't say whether it was good or bad because I don't need to say that you can just look at it and read it and then you think Oh my God, that's really horrific or with Gabriel Lawrence. I looked through the.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 52:51 Court documents.
And then I looked through the history. You know, the history of the area, what smells would have been happening there, I guess, like historical novels, really. But people respond differently. You did ask something about space.
About exhibiting things somewhere, but because people. Do respond differently to being in a space with objects.
And I think that's important because it's part, it brings them into the now.
So that's the reality of now as well, because they're with it, with it, whether it's a sculpture or not, I think it's really important.
So I I met people can make up their own mind about things, but the stories are so upsetting that they, you know, they will it.
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They're so quite shocked at some of the things, you know, I'd say, but I say them in a way that. Or through an object that people cannot be actually offended by. I mean, I say that somebody is going to be offended by somebody soon.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 54:04
For sure, because I'm applied for this thing which I'm not sure how it's going to pan out, but I thought it's my duty to go out into the world and this is of a South London borough. And you know, go to different communities who are not going to like these stories and see what they think about them and see what happens.
Something unpleasant. You know, I will see what happens.
Yeah, so need to readdress history is what has influenced the establish museum. I think it's important I've got Arts Council funding. How do I get funding?
And so I got Arts Council funding and hopefully I have a private benefactor who's actually going to buy a barge near Shoreditch for me to put the museum on a barge, which I think would be great because, like, we're talking about this RSA.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 55:10
What's that? What's that short for? Because I'm too dyslexic. What's that mean, royal? What's our rest day?
Helen Gorrill (Staff) 55:21
Royal City Academy. So it's the Scottish version of the Royal Academy, yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 55:31
When you said to get your work in there, I've made a decision because I do think it's getting much more conservative out there and and all angles. I think it's I think censorship is getting really. It's it's it's very, very difficult I think because if you want to hear all parts of the conversation, then you should hear all parts of the conversation. And that's for good or bad. I think it's a really tricky thing, but censorship is becoming. Quite.
I I I think it's got a lot worse than somebody else was mentioning that to me the other day. But so I made a decision. I don't like the art wealth. Do you like the art world, Hannah?
Hannah Totten (Student) 56:19
Do I like the art world?
I I don't really know how to answer that, to be honest. I I mean I think it's. I kind of have to accept to a certain extent the the route that I have taken and the industry that I'm coming into.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 56:41
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I'm wondering if you do.
Hannah Totten (Student) 56:45
What have to accept it?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 56:47
Yeah. Why? I'm saying this is.
Hannah Totten (Student) 56:48 I thought, well, OK.
I think.
So a lot of the artists that I. I'm interested in follow have ended up not necessarily going down like the traditional art route because they can't make the work that they would like to.
Because of things like censorship and being able to get traditional funding based on that.
Hannah Totten (Student) 57:20
So I guess with the kind of direction that I would like to take, I'm not sure that it necessarily benefits me the current.
Climate.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 57:32
And I just don't know how you're going to change that within because. I just decided the other day. I mean, actually, it was really interesting because a friend of mine who. With Vivian Westwood's activism, she did all of the activism and put on a show. A couple of weeks ago when there was a big arms dealing in the O2 Arena. You know, down here and they put on arts, you know, against arts and blah, blah, blah. And I thought about that, and I'm all for activism, and I think, oh, yeah, that's that's nice. Then I started thinking to myself, actually, we're going to have one of the biggest. Art shows here.
In a few weeks, freeze is going to happen.
And actually, where does all this money come from? To buy the art at freeze? And they're trying to dodge out of paint any tax on anything that comes in. And one of my friends who was is quite well known. Painter is with the pace gallery. And he I saw him after freeze this year. Maybe the one just gone and he was really distraught and I said what's wrong with you? And he said Oh well, you know, pace me. Taste gallery make me go out and meet the buyers and I've got to go on a night out with them. And we were in Mayfair and sort of, you know, these really posh places which women were coming up to the table. It sounded it's not his thing at all. And the money. So these were a Belgian father and son, I think, who'd bought a lot of his work. And he was made to go out and do this horrible evening with and they made all the money from arms dealing.
And so, you know, The thing is, I also there was a question here that you said something about.
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It was something I've noticed recently. I just sat in the gallery. I sat in the town of Art Gallery, which is where the it's down on the South Coast. It's where. Oh, God. What's the big art art thing that's on now? They've chosen it the. Oh my God, the big show where people. You know, choose. Oh, God, what's the bloody thing? I'm going to have to look it up. It's. I'm not good in the afternoon, by the way. I wake up at 6:00 in the morning, so by the afternoon, you know.
Helen Gorrill (Staff) 1:00:03
Not the Turner Prize, is it?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:00:05 Turner Prize. Yeah. So the Turner Prize? Has. Yeah. So basically, what was I talking about? The Turner Prize for? Where did you go to China? Oh, I know. I was down there at the town and I wasn't looking as Barbara Hepworth, that I've seen over and over again. I do love Barbara Hepworth, but I just sat there one afternoon looking at who was coming into the calorie and how they were looking at things and how they were standing. And I thought I wasn't. I didn't really like it, to be honest, I thought, oh gosh, it's like it's so performative. Like people have come in there. They've been told this is something.
You know that they need to be looking at and they need to be looking at it in a way that they understand it and maybe relate to it when maybe they don't even do that with their hands behind their back. And like, you know, and it was like I thought actually what I don't like about galleries is not only I don't like the way that you know, they are the.
Arbiters of taste, you know. And then they, you know, then you know, they when they invest in an artist as well, then they have to uphold that storytelling.
Because then that's worth a certain amount of money and you know, basically I don't. I feel that for me because I've decided to myself last week that I do not want to.
Show any work in a gallery and I don't want to have anything to do with galleries. I've just made my mind up.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:01:45 So it is. It's all wrong terms within your own.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:01:46 I just make.
Oh, I'm. I'm just. I'm just junior. I'm not going to. I don't want them to sound my work. I don't want them. I just. I don't have any interest, and my sister's quite heavily involved in the art world, actually. And I all the things I know. But I think, Oh my God. OK, you've now found another outside artist who's really mentally unwell, and people are trying to buy the work before he commits suicide. But when he's committed suicide, it'll be great because it'll have gone up in, in.
In in worse.
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I find it truly repulsive, so I just why are you even bothered about it? So I'm just saying to you, you know, when you go about things a different way on your own terms, then you're more likely for them to come after you.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:02:37
Yeah, ironic.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:02:39 Yeah.
So I'm just thinking why I'm just saying to you, if you haven't, you know I I going to try and change them from within is a tricky thing. Is it really going to happen? I don't. I think you know, they are their own arbiters of of, of taste. Oh, I know. One other thing I was going to say to you one. So for me it's been quite tricky because I've got the word sex in the museum and I've had so many arguments.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:03:03
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:03:07
Before I put on so my first one I just cleared out my own flat and I sent. Thank you, the National Trust.
Saying it's Museum of sex, so I didn't tell them everything about it and anyway they.
Decided to put me as one feature my flat which I had to get my son out of and send him in his mate away for a week, sleep in a blow up bed, get all the factual and stash it out and open my flat up as a museum with the National Trust for Open House weekend.
So I thought, wow, you know, they've said, OK, this is, this is really helpful. Plus they featured it because they were tick boxing because it says LGBTQ history. So they had to do some tick boxing. I hate tick boxing, but I think if you can tick some boxes in your storytelling.
That accompanies your work. Then you might get it in there.
Right, use the tick boxing to your advantage because I hate tick box tick boxing, but you could use it to your advantage. OK, so I think that would be good, but so I had that. And then every time I tried to, something's go. Well, you've got the word sex in now. So these people who have legs of buildings around London curate great thing they they're good things they do but they go well. We couldn't possibly do this because it's got the word sex in it and it's a museum and it's not even a museum. And I went OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:04:41
But you know we what what are the yummy mummies going to do? They're not going to be able to come around with their kids really quite aggressive with me actually. And I fortuitously had just been looking on the National Gallery website and I put the word rape into the National Gallery website and it comes up with 33 hits on rape being depicted within the National Gallery. So I said, well, that's really interesting because my objects are, you know, they're much more complex than that. How stories of that, but they're not explicit.
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Hannah Totten (Student) 1:05:16
Yes.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:05:18
And I said it's funny you should say that because do you think parents take their children round the National Gallery?
Why would you even ask that question? I said? Oh well, because there's 33 accounts of rape on the wall or within statues there and and they really, you know, I mean, people don't want to touch you. So now I know I'm talking a lot, but I'm quite excited.
I've applied for something really really weird, which they've asked me to apply for.
And I now want to do it but I couldn't understand why they'd asked me to. But say Merton is a borough in SW London and it's it's a very tricky borough actually because it's got very, very rich, as is all of London and incredibly poor. And I like this about the arts, the. Arts Council that they have tried to redistribute. That the money, and so instead of like putting them into established things, they've set up these libraries in Merton.
To be national portfolio organisations, which is like things like the National Valley, ARB and stuff like that, where they give them so much money to have artists and say, I'm just like, Oh my God, this doesn't sound like me. What am I going to anyway? Went down that last week and actually I've now decided once I've gone out of this idea.
I guess you have to think, are you gonna make money? I don't. It's not. That's. I mean, you need to survive. I understand, but I'd rather make money at something else than selling my myself. And I thought, actually, if I'm going to put my money where my mouth is, actually public spaces and the public and their reaction, not this looking round a gallery with their hands behind the back, thinking I have to relate to this in some way because someone's told me that I have to. It's probably more important to me. So I've sent my application in right now just before I spoke to you.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:07:20 Yeah, yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:07:24
As the artist in residence.
So we'll see how far I can go with with that, but it's a, it's a funny old thing, but then you know I I think who who do you want to get to? I mean eventually I think if you they will come for you. If they will come for you. But I just think maybe you think about how you want to present yourself.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:07:55
There must be ways around it.
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Hannah Totten (Student) 1:07:57
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:07:59
You know, there must be ways around it. I don't want to depress you at all. I want to encourage you. But you know, I think you know, you can knock your head against a wall so many times and you know the way things are going, you might not. But on the other hand, you've got to try both. But I think you should have a little backup plan. What is? How can you hire things in Dundee? Are you in Dundee, Hannah?
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:08:26 Look.
Yeah, I'm in Dundee at the moment. You mean like higher spaces?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:08:32
Yeah, or something or or even go to Glasgow or something.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:08:35 And.
Yeah, yeah, there's there's definitely gallery spaces that you can hire. I've been talking with a few people within my year group actually recently. About putting on an exhibition this year. Again, it depends on what kind of work I'm making, because my work that I put I made last year. I was told I couldn't put my work into the exhibition that I was curating with a few of my friends. Which to be fair, it was in a church. And it was.
Predominantly paintings of.
Nude images that I'd been sent by men. So I can understand why the church want that.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:09:32
I love that idea that.
I love that idea. It's just the wrong place. That's OK.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:09:39
I love it too, but it's not. It's hard to display it, you know, even on my Instagram I can only post so much without it getting taken down or me getting shadow band or whatever. You know, it's hard hard to share. Share your work when it's got not just nudity, but you know, highly sexually charged nudity. It's all about the Rex ****. Basically, if there, if there's no erect penis in it, it's fine, and if there is, it's not.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:10:16
You know, I mean, it's really crazy. I mean, I don't, you know, I honestly if you could look into zuzak, I think you should because I think zuzak is is pretty fantastic cultural commentator.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:10:17 It's hard.
Helen Gorrill (Staff) 1:10:30
Do you have the next sample of a book you could recommend? Debbie? Obviously, Zach, I've just been looking online and it's the one in particular you think would be useful for for Hannah to look at.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:10:45
I think I think you could just start. I mean there are quite a few you could just start off with the perverts going to the cinema or even you know and then have a look. But you know what? He gave a lecture once. He was like talking about how you know well. And I remember it like Europe, all all of Europe when I was growing up, when I was a young woman, we could just go topless on the beach. Nobody bothered about it. And you know how American friend Kate of his came over here and she was like, really shocked at how.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:10:53 Right.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:11:18
You know, but now because of the Internet and all these big companies like meta, bringing that awful evangelical Christian, you know?
Crusade to our shores, unfortunately has now affected how we are as well. I mean, I cannot understand why a ****** is just.
Is such a problematic thing, but again, it's just. It's a. It's a projection, isn't it? You know, you know, again, all of these are.
Living in a sort of like even a, you know, House of mirrors of strange perversions, which are not what we call perversions, but they are. It's pervert. They are perversions. They are perverting a certain honesty and truth into something I can still hear Griffey barking. But yeah, I love the idea of of doing paintings around images you've been sent on the phone.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:11:54 Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:12:17 I love that.
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Hannah Totten (Student) 1:12:19
Yeah, I I did that for my my first semester of my third year. Along with I made lots of little phalluses. I had them all on, just I had about 15 of them, all displayed on the wall and a 7 foot tall penis that you had to kind of like edge around to be able to get to the rest of the exhibition.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:12:41 thats good.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:12:43
That that's in particular was all about the ****, because it was I was trying to do some reactive work where I was looking at.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:12:46
Yeah.
Nice.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:12:51
The work of David Salle in particular, who displays, you know, women as these vessels with zero personality. And it's all just like close-ups of their bod, like their genitals and. You know, there is one of a woman with like, Duns caps on her breasts and you know.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:13:11
That's why I really love to.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:13:15
Again, it was, you know, if you look at this Freudian Lee and you look at ***********, they will say that actually it's.
You know, *********** is an attempt of the male to climb back inside their mother, and that what's the Caroline Smith sleemans the American when she put the camera up inside her. Do you ever, do you ever seen that? And because it's taken *********** to the most ultimate, which is yes, she had she put the camera.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:13:50
I'd invited men to come and have a look inside it, or it just looks like a what? Which it is a lot of Red Robin gristle, like we've all got inside us, you know.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:14:01
Annie. Sprinkle. Did the public cervix announcement where she had.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:14:10
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A queue of spectators coming and looking through a speculum with a torch and then discussing it's all after in front of her.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:14:14
Yeah.
I I had her come to do a talk at the museum on online, actually, yeah.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:14:22 Dead. Fantastic.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:14:25
Yeah. Yeah. Well, she does something called ecosexuality now, so I wanted to. I wanted to show all different types of sexuality and discuss all different types. And so she, her big obsession is ecosexuality now where she has married the earth and encourages other people to go and marry part of the planet or a tree or something. It's quite beautiful, actually, because, you know, as a reaction to, you know, the climate change disaster that we're. Middle of this horrific situation, but you know I love I I love this. This idea of these patches from.
That people have sent you. I love that.
Got to be ways of doing that without.
Without it offending.
OK, well think about it.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:15:24
Yeah.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:15:26
Yeah, I'll send you some stuff. OK. Do you think we? Oh, ***** last thing? Yes, I have. I haven't made anything with *****. I did, though.
Make a piece for the museum last September, which was about.
Lesbian love tokens and my friend who is at Oxford, Marburg, old she. She's been doing some work in the Pitt rivers and had found these wonderful love tokens.
Late 19th century love tokens between two women, and so her and her girlfriend. Why I reconstructed them and her and her girlfriend sent me their ***** through the post.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:16:23
Men keeping their lovers ***** and like their snuff box. Or like in their hat instead of like a feather or something.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:16:32
As either a symbol of devotion or exploit or whatever, you know.
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Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:16:37
Notch, notching or something?
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:16:44
Well, and my favourite artist is Louise Bourgeois, right? By far. I absolutely love her, love everything about her.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:16:55
Yeah, that's that's my favourite. And I think if we finished, you think.
Helen Gorrill (Staff) 1:19:40
This has been a mess and hopefully it's helped you think about your degree shohanna as well in terms of what you're going to put out there. And don't worry about it being censored because if it gets censored, you'll actually get more publicity from it. Do you know what I mean? So.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:19:58
I think the customer, I think maybe preempt it's gonna get censored.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:20:04
And maybe think of something clever to put in with that I didn't know, you know.
Hannah Totten (Student) 1:20:09
Yeah. OK.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:20:10
Maybe take something off the wall and there's something even worse behind. I I just think you know, you know, let's use our feminine unruliness. To preempt linear conversation.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:22:52
Scotland's a lot moving forward, thinking like you were saying. Do you think that it's it's, you know more crudish or that London is more accepted? I don't think so, no.
Deborah Sim (Guest) 1:23:05
You know, I don't, I don't think real people get insulted by. Erotica.
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It's the middle classes that get insulted by everything.
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