32397352 32327207 new movement invictas marked swiss when in fact chinese 1

#1 Yesterday, 07:37 PM Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,773

DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek New Movement Invictas marked Swiss

Has anyone noticed that some Invicta models that previously used the ETA G10 and were marked Swiss Made are now using the Ronda 5040d and are now labled simply Swiss?

This includes some Reserve models as well - Akula for example.

There was some discussion about this when the Amazon exclusive models appeared, particularly the Venom. It was hundreds less used the Ronda 5040d and was marked Swiss.

My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labeled Swiss Made.

I asked JSkelton about this (when the Amazon Venom was being discussed) and he said he didn't know but he would ask Eyal.

I don't think the quality has suffered and the Ronda 5040d (even the Asian made version) has nicer features than the ETA G10. I just want to know if my theory is correct.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c)

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DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #2 Yesterday, 07:42 PM Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin Texas..... Y'all Posts: 2,233 Real Name: Jeff

I have wondered the same thing. If true it is pretty shady from my point of view.

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Evil Empire Member Member Geek

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yes we beat this subject to death earlier LOL Evil Empire View Public Profile Send a private message to Evil Empire Find all posts by Evil Empire Add Evil Empire to Your Contacts #4 Yesterday, 10:00 PM

rjaybass Senior Member Senior Geek

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Evidently there are Russian Divers on Amazon that are not Swiss Made... __________________ [SIGPIC] rjaybass View Public Profile Send a private message to rjaybass Send email to rjaybass Find all posts by rjaybass Add rjaybass to Your Contacts #5 Yesterday, 10:06 PM

samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,299 Real Name: Sam

Swiss and Swiss Made mean the exact same thing. Sometimes the word Swiss appears on the case back too. The vendor may even choose to not put it on there at all, but it is a selling point so they do. The wording and location are all at the discretion of the designer.

If there is room on the dial, etc. Ronda 5040 movements tend to have more complications on them and some Russian Divers even have them at the 3 O'clock position.

Please do a search of the forum on the subject of "Swiss vs. Swiss Made" and let's let this thread die before jumping to all sort of wild conclusions. __________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

samuelrz View Public Profile Send a private message to samuelrz Send email to samuelrz Find all posts by samuelrz Add samuelrz to Your Contacts #6 Yesterday, 10:14 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

Sorry, that wouldn't be allowed under U.S. Customs country of origin labeling regulations.

If you read the following excerpts from the regs. you will note that the country of origin of the movement must should appear on the dial or case back. A company subject to U.S. Customs regs, could not put Swiss on the dial when in fact the movement was made in Asia.

U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177 Chapter 91, Additional U.S. Note 4, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States, sets forth special marking requirements for watches and clocks: (a) Watch movements shall be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show: (i) the name of the country of manufacture, (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser, and (iii) in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical purpose as frictional bearings. (c) Watch cases shall be marked on the inside or outside of the back to show: (i) the name of the country of manufacture, and (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser.

The above movements and cases must be conspicuously and indelibly marked by cutting, die-sinking, engraving, stamping (including by means of indelible ink), or mold-marking.

Movements with opto-electronic display only and cases designed for use therewith, whether entered as separate articles or as components of assembled watches or clocks, are excepted from these special marking requirements.

Watches and clocks are also subject to the normal country of origin marking requirements of 19 U.S.C. 1304, and under these requirements, the movement’s country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back. In addition, watchbands should be marked with the country of manufacture of the band, unless the watchband is attached in the country where the watch was produced. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback

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wave3214 Senior Member True WatchGeek

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this has been discussed many many times in the past. search is your friend __________________

wave3214 View Public Profile Send a private message to wave3214 Find all posts by wave3214 Add wave3214 to Your Contacts #8 Yesterday, 10:18 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz Swiss and Swiss Made mean the exact same thing. Sometimes the word Swiss appears on the case back too. The vendor may even choose to not put it on there at all, but it is a selling point so they do. The wording and location are all at the discretion of the designer. If there is room on the dial, etc. Ronda 5040 movements tend to have more complications on them. Some Russian Divers even have them at the 3 O'clock position.

Please do a search of the forum on the subject of "Swiss vs. Swiss Made" and let's let this thread die before jumping to all sort of wild conclusions.

Sorry Sam, Swiss and Swiss Made as used in the U.S. do not mean the same thing.

In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark, and Federation member or not, their rules must be followed under their trademark rights.

Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made. It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial. So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #9 Yesterday, 10:20 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by wave3214 this has been discussed many many times in the past. search is your friend Steve, it seems that the search tool isn't going to be used in this respect, and as a result, I will continue to post the fact of the matter surrounding Swiss and Swiss Made until everyone has seen it . . . __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #10 Yesterday, 10:28 PM Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin Texas..... Y'all Posts: 2,233 Real Name: Jeff

Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback Sorry Sam, Swiss and Swiss Made as used in the U.S. do not mean the same thing.

In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark, and Federation member or not, their rules must be followed under their trademark rights.

Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made. It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial. So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.

Flyback, If customs requires the dial to be marked with the country of orgin, how did Invicta get away with the OTV carbon fiber RD's, and the Sea Spider Sport?

The Sea Spider Sport was marked "Swiss," the RD "Swiss Movt" on the dial. The casebacks were labeled "Swiss Parts Movt" on both.

We all know that "Swiss Parts Movt" are from the Orient in origin. So wouldn't the casebacks and dials need to be marked as such for importation?

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Add Kahuna Cowboy to Your Contacts #11 Yesterday, 10:30 PM Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin Texas..... Y'all Posts: 2,233 Real Name: Jeff

Wait a minute, I got it now. Send a Rhonda movement to the factories in the orient for build, ship back to Switzerland for sale to watch companies. That would do it right Brad?

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50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

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From what i understand swiss and swiss made are 1 in the same. There is a swiss parts movt. 5040d but it would say that on the watch somewhere. __________________

"We remember........."

50mm&up

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Flyback, If customs requires the dial to be marked with the country of orgin, how did Invicta get away with the OTV carbon fiber RD's, and the Sea Spider Sport?

The Sea Spider Sport was marked "Swiss," the RD "Swiss Movt" on the dial. The casebacks were labeled "Swiss Parts Movt" on both.

We all know that "Swiss Parts Movt" are from the Orient in origin. So wouldn't the casebacks and dials need to be marked as such for importation?

Excellent question, and one to which I don't have the answer. I rely on the published regs. when making my statements on the labeling issue, and there may very well be unpublished enforcement guidelines that allow this, or those who do so are just not being tagged for the non-compliance. In my thinkging, it would have to be one or the other. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #14 Yesterday, 10:35 PM

samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

We need a Swiss Forum. __________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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dacathey Senior Member Super Geek

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Swiss made is the trademarked phrase. Swiss is not except for Federation members of which Invicta is not a member. So if they put a swiss parts movement in a watch labeled "swiss made" then customs would pull them and enforce the trademark. If it says swiss then nothing happens. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz We need a Swiss Forum.

It's not that complicated. I've manged intellectual property both nationally and internationally for a number of companies since the mid '80s. The problem here, no matter how many times something is stated, people only remember what they want to. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #17 Yesterday, 10:41 PM

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 662 Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz We need a Swiss Forum.

Flyback, Can you put together a Sticky in the General Swiss Watch Forum?

A comprehensive post, that would be used to point to, every time this comes up.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Time Bandit Flyback, Can you put together a Sticky in the General Swiss Watch Forum?

A comprehensive post, that would be used to point to, every time this comes up.

First of all, I'm just a regular member like you, so I can't put together a sticky. But if I was

asked to, I'd be happy to do so. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback It's not that complicated. I've manged intellectual property both nationally and internationally for a number of companies since the mid '80s. The problem here, no matter how many times something is stated, people only remember what they want to.

Another problem is that companies come out with marketing terms meant to confuse the buyer like "Swiss Parts Movement". Everyone wants to be associated with the Swiss. It happens in many industries too.

I wonder what would happen if Ford used the Japanese word for Ford on their vehicles?

Would you assume it was better quality because it was Japanese? Probably.

__________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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rjaybass Senior Member Senior Geek

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Their are new members joining daily I'm sure so I think some folks may not be so adept at negotiating this site for a while. Much of what I do here is done on my little iPhone screen on the fly. I'm very busy as most people are nowadays but even if it's only a minute or two to check in here I do it because I just love the whole "Invicta scene". __________________ [SIGPIC] rjaybass View Public Profile Send a private message to rjaybass Send email to rjaybass Find all posts by rjaybass

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by rjaybass . . . Much of what I do here is done on my little iPhone screen on the fly. . .

Thank the Lord for my 22" monitor! __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Quote: Originally Posted by Time Bandit I bet that looks funny when you hold it up to your head.

Do people stare at you?

Well . . . when you consider that I have a wireless keyboard with integrated mouse that rests in my lap while reclining in my Lazy Boy with the monitor situated about 24 inches in front and 12 inches to the right, so as not to interfere with my line of sight to my big screen TV, and that no strangers ever wonder through my living room. The answer is, no one ever stares at me regarding my internet access. However, when I'm at work or out in public wearing my cool watches, people do tend to notice. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #23 Today, 12:08 AM

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bigjimzlll Senior Member Super Geek

So Swiss and Swiss Made mean the same thing????

OK Ok...just kidding.

There only seems to be a handfull of companies that play it dead straight. Android and NFW come to mind.

My advice is don't get caught up in the whole Swiss Made thing. The Swiss guidelines are a joke...watch companies don't really have any reason to follow them...and most of all, if a unscrutiable company wanted too...they could bold face lie and nothing would happen. __________________

bigjimzlll View Public Profile Send a private message to bigjimzlll Find all posts by bigjimzlll Add bigjimzlll to Your Contacts #24 Today, 01:57 AM unclefixit Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE Has anyone noticed that some Invicta models that previously used the ETA G10 and were marked Swiss Made are now using the Ronda 5040d and are now labled simply

Swiss?

This includes some Reserve models as well - Akula for example.

There was some discussion about this when the Amazon exlcusive models appeared, particularly the Venom. It was hundreds less used the Ronda 5040d and was marked Swiss.

My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

I asked JSkelton about this (when the Amazon Venome was being discussed) and he said he didn't know but he would ask Eyal.

I don't think the quality has suffered and the Ronda 5040d (even the Asian made version) has nicer features than the ETA G10. I just want to know if my theory is correct.

D Originally Posted by RenatoDiamond Very nice, this is one of the swiss movement (not swiss made) RD's.

Sorry Gene that would be incorrect.

The words "Swiss" or "Swiss Made", usually at the 6 o'clock position on the dail, indicate a watch built meeting the guidelines of the Swiss Federation of Horology.

The words "Swiss Movement" (in the same font) indicate only a "Swiss built movement" that has been encased and assymbled into a completed watch, in a nonSwiss factory.

The words "Swiss movt." (note abbreviation) indicate a non-Swiss assymbled movement and of course watch.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Flyback, If customs requires the dial to be marked with the country of orgin, how did Invicta get away with the OTV carbon fiber RD's, and the Sea Spider Sport?

The Sea Spider Sport was marked "Swiss," the RD "Swiss Movt" on the dial. The casebacks were labeled "Swiss Parts Movt" on both.

We all know that "Swiss Parts Movt" are from the Orient in origin. So wouldn't the casebacks and dials need to be marked as such for importation?

Quote: Originally Posted by 50mm&up I got a Sea Spider from InvictaShark that has a 5040D Ronda asian parts movt. It says swiss at 6:00. lol. Anybody's guess is as good as mine and it doesn't really matter to me.

You're getting a sweet RD for $90, whats the problem?

Rick I know the watch your talking about, the Sea Spider Sport.

It's the one that caused a big to-doo here because it was sold with an incorrectly labeled dail ("Swiss" meaning Swiss Made).

This mistake (by the dail manufacturer) during manufacturing wasn't caught until after the watches were finished and ready for sale.

That's why your watch is labeled as it is...doesn't mean your watch is poor in quaility by any means.

What it does mean is that you saved a hell of alot of money and got a great watch.

Search is your friend...

Last edited by unclefixit; Today at 02:03 AM. Reason: more info added unclefixit View Public Profile Send a private message to unclefixit Find all posts by unclefixit Add unclefixit to Your Contacts #25 Today, 02:18 AM

bigjimzlll Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by unclefixit

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Redding,CA Posts: 1,608 Real Name: Jim

Originally Posted by 50mm&up I got a Sea Spider from InvictaShark that has a 5040D Ronda asian parts movt. It says swiss at 6:00. lol. Anybody's guess is as good as mine and it doesn't really matter to me.

You're getting a sweet RD for $90, whats the problem?

Rick I know the watch your talking about, the Sea Spider Sport.

It's the one that caused a big to-doo here because it was sold with an incorrectly labeled dail ("Swiss" meaning Swiss Made).

This mistake (by the dail manufacturer) during manufacturing wasn't caught until after the watches were finished and ready for sale.

That's why your watch is labeled as it is...doesn't mean your watch is poor in quaility by any means.

What it does mean is that you saved a hell of alot of money and got a great watch.

That statement is my whole point. A watched marked Swiss, that is not Swiss Made. Sure it maybe a mistake, but where is the policing? How much was the fine? Was Invicta sanctioned? or did nothing happen...as in...who cares...keep making "Mistakes" Today, 02:40 AM

unclefixit

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Universal City, Texas (about 10 miles N.E. of San Antonio) Posts: 1,434 Real Name: Jay

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjimzlll That statement is my whole point. A watched marked Swiss, that is not Swiss Made.

Sure it maybe a mistake, but where is the policing? How much was the fine? Was Invicta sanctioned? or did nothing happen...as in...who cares...keep making "Mistakes" This one case was unique in that the watches had been produced, shipped to the U.S., and sent to the customer (SNBC in this case) before anything was noticed.

(This may speak to the lack of supervision during manufacture that seems to haunt Invicta) It was noticed by sneak peekers and early buyers, than braught to forum members attention in many many threads.

There was no fine to be given as Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation of Horology. unclefixit View Public Profile Send a private message to unclefixit Find all posts by unclefixit Add unclefixit to Your Contacts

#27 Today, 07:02 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 343 Real Name: Michael C.

mkcon Senior Member Senior Geek

Akula's are Reserve Watches - unless Invicta is changing their definition of Reserve the watch has to be Swiss Made - meaning Swiss movment. Why they changed the label to Swiss only - I have no clue but you have to assume it is Swiss Made. __________________ "The definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome." - Freud. mkcon View Public Profile Send a private message to mkcon Send email to mkcon Find all posts by mkcon Add mkcon to Your Contacts #28 Today, 07:07 AM Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Woodlands, TX Posts: 2,415 Real Name: Matt

watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback Steve, it seems that the search tool isn't going to be used in this respect, and as a result, I will continue to post the fact of the matter surrounding Swiss and Swiss Made until everyone has seen it . . .

May take you another 17,000 posts just on this topic though, Brad...LOL. __________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

-Billy Currington

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Gencoupe10

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Staten Island, New York Posts: 227 Real Name: Eddie B.

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIAMANTE Has anyone noticed that some Invicta models that previously used the ETA G10 and were marked Swiss Made are now using the Ronda 5040d and are now labled simply Swiss?

This includes some Reserve models as well - Akula for example.

There was some discussion about this when the Amazon exlcusive models appeared, particularly the Venom. It was hundreds less used the Ronda 5040d and was marked Swiss.

My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

I asked JSkelton about this (when the Amazon Venome was being discussed) and he said he didn't know but he would ask Eyal.

I don't think the quality has suffered and the Ronda 5040d (even the Asian made version) has nicer features than the ETA G10. I just want to know if my theory is correct.

D I think Ronda has factories in Japan ..... but i dont want to get Jim and Mike mad if i am wrong.......

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fnps90

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Senior Member Veteran Geek

Well the strange one for me was the Scuba's. The one on the bracelet say's swiss movement on dial and case back. The ones on rubber which I bought say's swiss on dial and caseback. Both are Rhonda 5040d. Jim said one time swiss means swiss made. Me, dont really matter cause I buy the watches I like. __________________

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

this is all very redundant. Hey! dont they make Swiss cheese in the USA???? licensing infringement?????? lol, google "swiss watch law"..........it's even more diluted.........

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Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: California Posts: 17,318 Real Name: Gene

RenatoDiamond Senior Member True WatchGeek

Some of these models are the F series you may have seen on Amazon.com, with swiss parts movements. __________________

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FloridaGary

Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 415 Real Name: Gary

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIAMANTE Has anyone noticed that some Invicta models that previously used the ETA G10 and were marked Swiss Made are now using the Ronda 5040d and are now labled simply Swiss?

This includes some Reserve models as well - Akula for example.

There was some discussion about this when the Amazon exlcusive models appeared, particularly the Venom. It was hundreds less used the Ronda 5040d and was marked Swiss.

My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

I asked JSkelton about this (when the Amazon Venome was being discussed) and he said he didn't know but he would ask Eyal.

I don't think the quality has suffered and the Ronda 5040d (even the Asian made version) has nicer features than the ETA G10. I just want to know if my theory is correct.

D Great observation. I noticed the same thing. I think the first I noticed was on the SAS just released in new color configurations. I expected the G-10, but noticed the Ronda movement instead. __________________ Too many watches, not enough time.

Rolex, Omega, Chase Durer, Poljot, Seiko, Orient, Invicta, Vostok Europe FloridaGary View Public Profile Send a private message to FloridaGary Send email to FloridaGary Find all posts by FloridaGary Add FloridaGary to Your Contacts #34 Today, 08:43 AM

Evil Empire

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Not to repeat myself. But I will any way. I understand why Invicta is doing this to keep prices down and I am sure they are good watches even though not Swiss made.

I wish they would just be upfront about where the watch and movement are made.

We are not stupid. Mike says yes..Jim says No..bla bla.

Sector is a swiss company any watch that I have from Sector with a non swiss movement does not say swiss any where on the watch back or front.

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kdog45 Senior Member Super Geek

thanks for the headz up. __________________

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DIAMANTE

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So why the change to Swiss only on the dials of the Akula, Venom, S1 Touring, etc....?

The change coincides with the change in movement - a movement that could be made in Asia.

I realize their is a lot of secrecy in the watch industry and if it comes out that in fact these newer versions are actually using the Asian made Ronda 5040d then Invicta's credibility is going to take a massive hit?

Invicta reps are on the record as saying when Invicta uses Swiss they are meeting the guidelines to use Swiss Made which means the movement must be Swiss Made. (although there are recent examples of this not being the case - and it was a "mistake" albeit one with no consequences.)

What we are talking about here is Reserve pieces.

All it is going to take is for someone to pop the case back and we will know for sure. I don't own one of these models but I'm tempted to buy one just take a look.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #37 Today, 10:18 AM

WileySG

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Member Member Geek

I find this whole "SWISS" / "SWISS MADE" / "SWISS MOVEMENT" issues very interesting! Geeks spend a lot of time covering this ground with NO SOLID answer from Invicta. I'm convinced that some watches are made in Switzerland. I'm also convinced that some watches are made in the Far East (with ??? parts). I believe Invicta makes a marketing point of "SWISS" (in any fashion). Hey for me...as long as the friggin hands dont fall off and it functions properly...I'm good! The styling of Invicta timepieces is the draw for me, not the "SWISS" logo!

That's just my opinion...I could be wrong! __________________

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit Flyback, Can you put together a Sticky in the General Swiss Watch Forum?

A comprehensive post, that would be used to point to, every time this comes up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback First of all, I'm just a regular member like you, so I can't put together a sticky. But if I was asked to, I'd be happy to do so.

I'm asking, I'm sure if you made a comprehensive post, It would become a Sticky, and member's would suggest just that.

Even as late as this morning, there is conflicting information regarding the word "SWISS" on the dial of a watch.

Some folks believe that "SWISS" without the word "MADE" means that it is a Swiss Made watch, but in reality it only has a Swiss Movement, as it pertains to the Swiss Federation Guidelines, and the Members of the Swiss Federation abiding by said Guidelines.

If there was a "goto, tellall, sticky" we could put this to rest, like Regis would say, "This is the Final Answer" in relation to this topic.

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watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit I'm asking, I'm sure if you made a comprehensive post, It would become a Sticky, and member's would suggest just that.

Even as late as this morning, there is conflicting information regarding the word "SWISS" on the dial of a watch.

Some folks believe that "SWISS" without the word "MADE" means that it is a Swiss Made watch, but in reality it only has a Swiss Movement, as it pertains to the Swiss Federation Guidelines, and the Members of the Swiss Federation abiding by said Guidelines.

If there was a "goto, tellall, sticky" we could put this to rest, like Regis would say, "This is the Final Answer" in relation to this topic.

The thing is, "Swiss" at the 6 position may or may not mean "Swiss Made" depending upon if the company is part of the Swiss federation or not. Even if company X (like Invicta) is not a member, it does mean out of hand that the designation does not hold up as being Swiss Made. Frankly, Michael's post should also be a sticky as to Invicta's company policy and should be controlling until such time as anyone can prove that Invicta using "Swiss" at the 6 does NOT mean "Swiss Made." There are final answers as to what the law says, but there is also "final answers" in terms of what the actual reality is. It serves no purpose to use the regs and guidelines to denounce a company that is not part of the Swiss federation without the corresponding proof that they are bending those guidelines to their advantage. __________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

-Billy Currington

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

If I want a Swiss Made watch from Invicta then I will buy only a watch that says Swiss Made. Why would Invicta label a watch "Swiss" if it is Swiss Made especially after the same dial (i.e. Russian Diver, SAS and SAIII, etc.) for a long period already was labeled "Swiss Made". To me, it means that Invicta likely changed the piece from Swiss Made to only some other manufacturing standard/parts of origin/assembly, etc.

No other logical explanation. Since Invicta is not a part of the Swiss Federation (as posted by others whom I respect tremendously) then dont assume its Swiss Made just because it says Swiss. Again, why would Invicta go through the trouble of chaning the dials from Swiss Made to Swiss (on the same models) if ithe model remained Swiss Made??? Answer - they would not unless it was no longer Swiss Made. __________________

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 The thing is, "Swiss" at the 6 position may or may not mean "Swiss Made" depending upon if the company is part of the Swiss federation or not. Even if company X (like Invicta) is not a member, it does mean out of hand that the designation does not hold up as being Swiss Made.

That was my entire point.

SWISS alone, doesn't mean anything.

No matter what company makes it.

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tkromer Senior Member True WatchGeek

I think the real answer, the 5040 is an upgrade, regardless of country of origin. tkromer

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watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit That was my entire point.

SWISS alone, doesn't mean anything.

No matter what company makes it.

No, I got where you are coming from. Well, it does mean something definitively if you a member of the Swiss federation as the only way members of the federation may use this is if, in fact, the piece is Swiss made. However when Michael states that "Swiss" at the 6 position means the same thing as Swiss Made and that Invicta is following those guidelines set forth by the Swiss federation, I just wish people would either say they don't believe him or provide evidence he is not being truthful... __________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

-Billy Currington watchdude1 View Public Profile Send a private message to watchdude1 Find all posts by watchdude1 Add watchdude1 to Your Contacts #44 Today, 10:52 AM

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 I just wish people would either say they don't believe him or provide evidence he is not being truthful...

I don't believe it.

See Heavy Jumbo's post above Time Bandit View Public Profile Send a private message to Time Bandit Send email to Time Bandit Find all posts by Time Bandit Add Time Bandit to Your Contacts #45 Today, 02:21 PM

DIAMANTE

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,773

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 ....snip.... I just wish people would either say they don't believe him or provide evidence he is not being truthful...

I don't beleive it either. I give Mike the benefit of the doubt because he's probably going on what he has been told.

I 2nd the - See Heavy Jumbo's post above No one has definitive proof yet, but someone will eventually pop the back on one of these models and we will.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIAMANTE No one has definitive proof yet, but someone will eventually pop the back on one of these models and we will.

D

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Think about this, We all know this always comes up and we all know that Mike and Jim read these. and yet two of my Russian divers have swiss made and the two with the ISA 8176 have only Swiss on them. This is not because on this extremely large dial that there was not room to put the words swiss made on it. You know they would put it on there if it were truely swiss made since this would leave no doubt as to it being swiss made. Just go with your instincts. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit

I've seen these photos before, and although I don't remember where, it's also be debunked as not being real. Maybe Mehdi could take a look and give his opinion. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback I've seen these photos before, and although I don't remember where, it's also be debunked as not being real. Maybe Mehdi could take a look and give his opinion.

The Photographer of those pictures is a member here on WG.net.

I didn't wan't to name him publicly.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit The Photographer of those pictures is a member here on WG.net.

I didn't wan't to name him publicly.

Maybe it was even here then that I saw the discussion. Something about that movement and how it would or wouldn't fit in that case. That aside, it's such a nothing watch in comparison to what's being discussed, but one of the current reserve line watches showing the movement was Asian made would be an entirely different matter. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

DIAMANTE

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,773

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit The Photographer of those pictures is a member here on WG.net.

I didn't wan't to name him publicly.

That's a start. What we need is someone to take photos just like that of the Venom, Akula, SAN III, etc.. that are marked simply Swiss.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #52

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bat Senior Member Senior Geek

Thanks Jay that should make it simple. bat View Public Profile Send a private message to bat Send email to bat Find all posts by bat Add bat to Your Contacts #53 Today, 03:25 PM

Watchbear

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Morrison CO. Posts: 4,310 Real Name: Uncle Bob

WatchGeeks Moderator Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit The Photographer of those pictures is a member here on WG.net.

I didn't wan't to name him publicly.

No... thees pictures were taken for another forum and brought over here I Believe thees were proven to be fake, another movement was installed in the watch __________________ Da bear is in da house Yabba Dabba Dooo...Fred Flintstone...

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

want proof that Swiss is not swiss, here it is this movt is in my russian diver with the distressed strap and the dial and caseback says swiss but yet the movement says the following "ISA cal 8176/2050 3 jewels CHINA Invicta watch group. Also say on it far east assy, the battery says swiss made.

__________________

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchbear No... thees pictures were taken for another forum and brought over here True, they were posted on another forum, I didn't say that they weren't.

I found them by Google'ing.

I did say that the auther of the photo's was a Member here too though, not that the author posted those here.

Sorry that I was unclear about that.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 want proof that Swiss is not swiss, here it is this movt is in my russian diver with the distressed strap and the dial and caseback says swiss but yet the movement says the following "ISA cal 8176/2050 3 jewels CHINA Invicta watch group. Also say on it far east assy, the battery says swiss made.

Thanks Dave! The first thing someone questioning your picture is going to say is that you can't tell what watch that movement came from. As a preventative measure, can you post a few more pictures showing more of the watch?

__________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

this is from model number 5857 Rosegold, brown distress strap

__________________

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ukrany1 Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback Thank the Lord for my 22" monitor!

Is it a Swiss Monitor or a Swiss Made monitor? __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Brad there will still be disbelievers but here goes, these are from my own personal watch I just opened up for you watchgeeks.

__________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

So really what does the Word "Swiss" really mean __________________

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reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Looks like for different companies Swiss means very different things. __________________

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#62 Today, 04:20 PM

Kahuna Cowboy

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Senior Member Super Geek

icewolf64, is the movement marked with the country of origin? I can't see anything from the distance of the pics.

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 Brad there will still be disbelievers but here goes, these are from my own personal watch I just opened up for you watchgeeks.

Dangerously deceptive in my book. I am sure Invicta has all the answers, but I am dissapointed. __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy icewolf64, is the movement marked with the country of origin? I can't see anything from the distance of the pics.

Yes is says CHINA __________________

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy icewolf64, is the movement marked with the country of origin? I can't see anything from the distance of the pics. look at post #55 __________________

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gman66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Hey! Is this one of those swiss/ swiss mvmt/ swiss parts mvmt/ swiss made threads?

Again? Been here, done this. Think I'd rather watch Phineas & Ferb... __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" gman66 View Public Profile Send a private message to gman66 Find all posts by gman66 Add gman66 to Your Contacts #67 Today, 04:26 PM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,292 Real Name: Paul

heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by gman66 Hey! Is this one of those swiss/ swiss mvmt/ swiss parts mvmt/ swiss made threads? Again? Been here, done this. Think I'd rather watch Phineas & Ferb... 'watch' whatever you want (sorry could not help myself). __________________

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gman66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavyjumbo 'watch' whatever you want (sorry could not help myself).

I get it... __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" gman66 View Public Profile Send a private message to gman66 Find all posts by gman66 Add gman66 to Your Contacts #69 Today, 04:28 PM

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

Good grief peeps! Ive been saying this for years, EVERYTHING now is made in China.

That doesnt make your watches less a watch, or less well made, all this "swiss" hype is exactly that.........ASSEMBLED IN SWISSLAND, that's it.........there are some stand up companies that tell you that like Renato.........altho most of my watches are Invicta, I do not pretend not to know the truth. I believe that the Swiss government is now trying to change the law from 51% of the value to 80%......not sure how that will work........Jim has been as honest as he can be by stating "only about 4-5 watch companies make TOTALLY Swiss made watches, and Invicta is not one of them".

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

I don't know if this is clearer

__________________

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

(i hear the sound of watch geeks through out the land opening the backs of their SANIII's) "click your heels three times, and say, there's no place like home, Dorothy" MREXE View Public Profile Send a private message to MREXE Find all posts by MREXE Add MREXE to Your Contacts #72 Today, 04:32 PM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,292 Real Name: Paul

heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

Maybe Invicta's conscience is clear because there is a swiss made battery in the watch. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukrany1 Is it a Swiss Monitor or a Swiss Made monitor?

Asian all the way . . . __________________

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gman66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Have we been buying stuff that's made in China? That's interesting...again...ad infinitum... __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" gman66 View Public Profile Send a private message to gman66 Find all posts by gman66 Add gman66 to Your Contacts #75 Today, 04:36 PM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 I don't know if this is clearer

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Oh wow. Well that is certainly interesting.

Today, 04:37 PM

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 Brad there will still be disbelievers but here goes, these are from my own personal watch I just opened up for you watchgeeks.

Your series of pictures are the first documented proof that I've seen from a known source of an Asian movement in an Invicta watch with only "Swiss" on the dial.

Perhaps Invicata should clarify their position given what you've shown us. At the very least, provide an explanation for what you found in your RD. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback Your series of pictures are the first documented proof of an Asian movement in an Invicta watch with only "Swiss" on the dial. Perhaps Invicata should clarify their position given what you've shown us.

I think an explaination is due. __________________

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#78 Today, 04:40 PM

Jamesmbb Senior Member Senior Geek

I hope invicta is using movementments or watches made in china

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#79 Today, 04:41 PM

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

I feel a price drop coming...............YIPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEE cat's outa da bag dudes..............

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reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Hard to spin this one. __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

I like the part were it say far east assy, I guess this voids my warranty, opp's

__________________

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TheMatrix Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE I feel a price drop coming...............YIPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEE cat's outa da bag dudes..............

I hear ya.

What this really translates to is lower pricing for consumers. Gotta luv lower prices. __________________ See my SO Imperial Turbillon here

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#83 Today, 04:51 PM

reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Maybe the battery meets their standard of SWISS. __________________

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#84 Today, 04:57 PM

erictrumpet

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,857

Senior Member Super Geek

I am so glad to see this thread going where it has gone.

Swiss does not mean Swiss Made! And in fact it might mean nothing... and even border on false representation of the product.

Does it break any laws? Probably not. So they'll keep saying it.

Eric. __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavyjumbo Maybe Invicta's conscience is clear because there is a swiss made battery in the watch. the funny thing is that my excursion which is marked swiss made does in fact have a swiss made 8173 movt in it with a USA made Energizer battery. __________________

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#86 Today, 05:17 PM

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RoyalOak Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 want proof that Swiss is not swiss, here it is this movt is in my russian diver with the distressed strap and the dial and caseback says swiss but yet the movement says the following "ISA cal 8176/2050 3 jewels CHINA Invicta watch group. Also say on it far east assy, the battery says swiss made.

Thank you for proving my doubts all along! I know the Swiss Federation regulations, and know "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" are the same for members, but not necessarily the same for non-members like Invicta. The very few times I've seen a real "Swiss Made" watch that just had "Swiss" on the dial also had its place of manufacture, e.g.

Geneve.

I brought up this issue in a thread I started a few months ago about Invicta Amazon Exclusives (F Series) marked "Swiss" on the dial not "Swiss Made," and questioned this issue at that time.

I bought an Invicta Amazon Exclusive SAS GMT on a P/U Strap that was marked "Swiss" only. Later, Shop was selling the SAS GMT on a P/U Strap, the difference being it was marked "Swiss Made" on those dials. Unfortunately, Invicta watches sold

by Amazon directly do not give you the name/number of the movement.

Last edited by RoyalOak; Today at 05:28 PM. Reason: typo

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

Geez, where are the Ops and owners debunking all of this horseradish? .........in a frantic meeting, I assume.

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#88 Today, 05:22 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

Originally Posted by Flyback Your series of pictures are the first documented proof that I've seen from a known source of an Asian movement in an Invicta watch with only "Swiss" on the dial.

Perhaps Invicata should clarify their position given what you've shown us. At the very least, provide an explanation for what you found in your RD. Was watching an Invicta show today and it was reported by the Invicta representative that because the question of "Swiss Made" and "Swiss" on the dial came up on emails and the Internet, he repeated the definition of what a Swiss made Invicta is.

I'm paraphrasing what was said, when Invicta has "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" on the dial it's a Swiss made watch because they follow the Swiss Federation guidelines for a Swiss made watch.

Now we have proof that Invicta is putting Chinese made movements in watches reported to be "Swiss Made." I do believe the Invicta representative was only stating what was told to him by Invicta. __________________

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#89 Today, 05:28 PM

2010gt Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ky Posts: 1,131 Real Name: Steve

Only buy Invictas with the 7750 auto if you are that fixated on the SWISS movement - you can see all the correct markings on the movement right thru the exhibition caseback. Problem solved. __________________

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#90 Today, 05:32 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010gt Only buy Invictas with the 7750 auto if you are that fixated on the SWISS movement - you can see all the correct markings on the movement right thru the exhibition caseback. Problem solved.

And of course the Selita SW200 falls into that same category. __________________

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#91 Today, 05:37 PM

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

I have breathed a sigh of relief, that, finally, the watchgeek world has been informed as to what they are buying. From now on, if my watch is running correctly after 30 days, I will take the back off and take some pics...........just to keep the truth out there. Dang, I got about 50 pics to take this week alone..........THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

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#92 Today, 05:40 PM

timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

By putting a Chinese movement in a watch that has the word "Swiss" on the dial, not only violates their claim that they follow the Swiss Federations guidelines, but also violates the U.S. Custom regulations on the origin of the movement. According to U.S. Custom regulations the word "China" instead of "Swiss" should be on the dial to designate the country in which the movement was made. __________________

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#93 Today, 05:44 PM

timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010gt Only buy Invictas with the 7750 auto if you are that fixated on the SWISS movement - you can see all the correct markings on the movement right thru the exhibition caseback. Problem solved.

They also make a Chinese version of the 7750. Honestly.

Here is a photo of one.

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#94 Today, 05:46 PM Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 379

wilco Senior Member Senior Geek

That can be circumvented and is on a regular basis by both ETA and others. When discussing country of origin, remember, that these ETA and Ronda quartz pieces actually have the modules which are produced in Switzerland.

After the modules are produced in Switzerland; they are then shipped to offshore Asian assembly houses and the modules and other swiss parts are then assembled.

Country of origin? Well, they started in Switzerland and the majority of parts by value in the movement are of swiss origin and I imagine they could squeak by with some type of final inspection in Switzerland when they receive them back fully constructed from Asia. The actual modules are ASSEMBLED/Made in Switzerland. Just the component of the watch are assembled in Asia. Sort of a gray area, I believe.

So, not so sure an Asian assembled Swiss Origin movement is not considered in a Swiss timepiece.

Just a theory, but I have heard it a few times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback Sorry, that wouldn't be allowed under U.S. Customs country of origin labeling regulations. If you read the following excerpts from the regs. you will note that the country of origin of the movement must should appear on the dial or case back. A company subject to U.S. Customs regs, could not put Swiss on the dial when in fact the movement was made in Asia.

U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177 Chapter 91, Additional U.S. Note 4, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States, sets forth special marking requirements for watches and clocks: (a) Watch movements shall be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show: (i) the name of the country of manufacture, (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser, and (iii) in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical

purpose as frictional bearings. (c) Watch cases shall be marked on the inside or outside of the back to show: (i) the name of the country of manufacture, and (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser.

The above movements and cases must be conspicuously and indelibly marked by cutting, die-sinking, engraving, stamping (including by means of indelible ink), or mold-marking. Movements with opto-electronic display only and cases designed for use therewith, whether entered as separate articles or as components of assembled watches or clocks, are excepted from these special marking requirements.

Watches and clocks are also subject to the normal country of origin marking requirements of 19 U.S.C. 1304, and under these requirements, the movement’s country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back. In addition, watchbands should be marked with the country of manufacture of the band, unless the watchband is attached in the country where the watch was produced.

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#95 Today, 05:47 PM Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,757

Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

I just have one question... Does this SURPRISE anyone? I, for one, have known this for a very long time. __________________

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#96 Today, 05:47 PM

2010gt Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ky Posts: 1,131 Real Name: Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman They also make a Chinese version of the 7750. Honestly.

Of course, but assuming they don't stoop to marking them as ETA 7750 and SWISS on several visible places on the movements - I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in this case only. __________________

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#97 Today, 05:53 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE I have breathed a sigh of relief, that, finally, the watchgeek world has been informed as to what they are buying. From now on, if my watch is running correctly after 30 days, I will take the back off and take some pics...........just to keep the truth out there. Dang, I got about 50 pics to take this week alone..........THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. My guess/hope would be that those labeled Swiss Made will indeed have Swiss Made movements. As to those labeled Swiss, time will tell, but one would also hope there is some reason U.S. Customs regulations haven't been followed if that proves to be the case. • Under 19 U.S.C.1304, as interpreted by Customs, the country of origin of the movement of the watch or clock determines the country of origin of the watch or clock. Although the addition of the hands, dial, or case adds definition to the timepiece, they do not substantially change the character or use of the watch or clock movement, which is the essence of the watch or clock. Accordingly, a watch with one country of origin for the movement, another for the case, and another for the battery, is considered, for purposes of 19 USC 1304, to be a product of the country in which the movement was produced. The movement's country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back of the watch. __________________

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#98 Today, 05:55 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman They also make a Chinese version of the 7750. Honestly.

True enough, but it's not made by ETA and the suggestion was that the exhibition case back on Invicta's with the V7750 would reveal what's inside. __________________

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#99 Today, 05:57 PM

2010gt Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ky Posts: 1,131 Real Name: Steve

and the debate goes on and on and on and.............it doesn't take long to figure out that anything you buy may or may not be exactly what you think it is in most cases at some point, have a little faith, brothers!!!!! __________________

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#100 Today, 06:00 PM

timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback True enough, but it's not made by ETA and the suggestion was that the exhibition case back on Invicta's with the V7750 would reveal what's inside.

The Chinese version is made by Apogaum. __________________

Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 2,022 Real Name: Dave

icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilco That can be circumvented and is on a regular basis by both ETA and others. When discussing country of origin, remember, that these ETA and Ronda quartz pieces actually have the modules which are produced in Switzerland.

After the modules are produced in Switzerland; they are then shipped to offshore Asian assembly houses and the modules and other swiss parts are then assembled.

Country of origin? Well, they started in Switzerland and the majority of parts by value in the movement are of swiss origin and I imagine they could squeak by with some type of final inspection in Switzerland when they receive them back fully constructed from Asia. The actual modules are ASSEMBLED/Made in Switzerland.

Just the component of the watch are assembled in Asia. Sort of a gray area, I believe.

So, not so sure an Asian assembled Swiss Origin movement is not considered in a Swiss timepiece.

Just a theory, but I have heard it a few times.

This would be considered a swiss parts movement watch. __________________

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bigjimzlll Senior Member Super Geek

Oh my, I have the exact same Russian diver with the distressed band. I am wearing it today and was bragging it is Swiss Made....As P.T. Barnum said, There's a sucker born every minute, I just really believed I was old enuff and "experienced" that it didn't pertain to me.

I am physically ill over this. __________________

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

again, where is Invicta on this thread? what? did you pee yer pants? we need some answers here, dont ya think?

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjimzlll Oh my, I have the exact same Russian diver with the distressed band. I am wearing it today and was bragging it is Swiss Made....As P.T. Barnum said, There's a sucker born every minute, I just really believed I was old enuff and "experienced" that it didn't pertain to me.

I am physically ill over this. yeah I thought the same thing, and then I saw the comments that ever one was making about oh not this discussion again and then it dawned on me that Invicta knows about this discussion too, So I thought to myself why would they not put the words swiss made on a Russian diver that has the largest dial face. It is obviously not because of lack of room.

So curiousity got the best of me. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE again, where is Invicta on this thread? what? did you pee yer pants? we need some answers here, dont ya think?

It's a holiday. It's not really fair to assume this is being ignored. It could very well be that it hasn't been seen as of yet. __________________

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 want proof that Swiss is not swiss, here it is this movt is in my russian diver with the distressed strap and the dial and caseback says swiss but yet the movement

says the following "ISA cal 8176/2050 3 jewels CHINA Invicta watch group. Also say on it far east assy, the battery says swiss made.

May I ask, did you purchase that watch in the picture on ShopNBC? If so, do you have a J# Time Bandit View Public Profile Send a private message to Time Bandit Send email to Time Bandit Find all posts by Time Bandit Add Time Bandit to Your Contacts #107 Today, 06:24 PM Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: colorado Posts: 969

MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

flyback, Please dont patronize me. this is the internet..........yer dog would tell you this is a hot topic on your OWN web forum............if shop and Invicta want to repair this "long coming" truth.....they should jump on it now, and put the fire out....

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit May I ask, did you purchase that watch in the picture on ShopNBC? If so, do you have a J# no I got this one from WOW but I do have another watch from shopnbc I will get back with pictures. __________________

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timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit May I ask, did you purchase that watch in the picture on ShopNBC? If so, do you have a J# Here are some from ShopNBC. Don't know if this is the watch in question.

Invicta Men's Russian Diver Swiss Quartz GMT Genuine Leather Strap Watch J177371 http://www.shopnbc.com/Invicta_Men_s...-_-M-_-J177371

Invicta Men's Russian Diver Swiss Quartz GMT Distressed Leather Strap Watch J177373 http://www.shopnbc.com/Invicta_Men_s...aspx?storeid=1

Invicta Men's Russian Diver Swiss Quartz GMT Sunray Dial Leather Strap Watch -

J177372 http://www.vvtv.com/Invicta_Men_s_Ru...V2-_-ONAIR-_-9

In the video this one is said to be Swiss Made. I don't know if the above watches sold on ShopNBC are the same as the one photographed in this thread. __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

this is the Quinataur I bought a year ago approximately from Shopnbc J #176920 this one at least has a gilt movement in it with 9 jewels instead of three however is still CHINA and FAR EAST ASSY

__________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

The plot thickens . . . __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

OK, Flyback, thot thar fer a sec you were from "the darkside of the planet"..........I apologize for a previous post.

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reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Looks like we may have found out where there factories are. __________________

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,518 Real Name: C.J.

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timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 this is the Quinataur I bought a year ago approximately from Shopnbc J #176920 this one at least has a gilt movement in it with 9 jewels instead of three however is still CHINA and FAR EAST ASSY

Invicta Men's Russian Diver Quinotaur Swiss Quartz GMT Rubber Strap Watch J176920

http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

In the video it's stated the watch is "All Swiss." __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE OK, Flyback, thot thar fer a sec you were from "the darkside of the planet"..........I apologize for a previous post.

Nope . . . me and Superman, truth, justice and the American way! __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Does this void my warranty, oh dang __________________

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samuelrz

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,299 Real Name: Sam

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE again, where is Invicta on this thread? what? did you pee yer pants? we need some answers here, dont ya think?

No. __________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 Does this void my warranty, oh dang

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,518 Real Name: C.J.

Do you have any (SWISS) autos? __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman Invicta Men's Russian Diver Quinotaur Swiss Quartz GMT Rubber Strap Watch J176920 http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N

In the video it's stated the watch is "All Swiss." you are correct, Eyal himself said the words " all Swiss" __________________

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Taxg8r00

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 34

Member Member Geek

I think it is pretty clear, unless a watch says "Swiss Made" on it is is not made in Switzerland. We can get into all sorts of sematics about the Swiss law on what makes a watch "Swiss Made" but that does not change the fact that the watch in question did

not say "Swiss Made". I think it has been said many times before by other posters if a watch manufacturer can legally put "Swiss Made" on a watch they surely would and would be idiots not to.

For the record I am Swiss citizen and spend and have spent a considerable period of time in Switzerland. My mom is from Biel/Bienne where lots of watch movements are made. I have Rolexes and still have no problem wearing my Rento. I even bought my dad a Swiss Legend Tungsten Chrono as a Father's Day gift. I think the issue with the watch in question goes more to false advertising as it seems like Invict is trying to pass something off as something it is not by putting "Swiss" on the dial. If the dial had said "Swiss Movt" would anyone be questioning this?

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by reliefcp Do you have any (SWISS) autos?

Sorry don't have any swiss auto's __________________

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erictrumpet

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,857

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Anyone with a Swiss Made RD they are willing to open? __________________

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet Anyone with a Swiss Made RD they are willing to open?

I opened my offshore RD which does have a swiss movement and it states on the dial swiss made.

__________________

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gman66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

1. There have been countless threads on the whole Swiss/ not Swiss thing, with no resolution.

2. I made light of it, as it was going nowhere IMO 3. Proof of China parts in Swiss labeled watches has been posted 4. I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my sarcasm 5. And now we can see things being touted as something other than what they really are, and that is disturbing.

I'll be interested in what we may hear after the holiday is over. This could be pretty damn big... __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" gman66 View Public Profile Send a private message to gman66 Find all posts by gman66 Add gman66 to Your Contacts #125 Today, 07:17 PM

erictrumpet

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,857

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by icewolf64 I opened my offshore RD which does have a swiss movement and it states on the dial swiss made.

To be expected. No surprise. Also no surprise (to me) that the watches labeled "Swiss" are indeed not.

Eric. __________________

reliefcp

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,518 Real Name: C.J.

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Bandit Flyback, Can you put together a Sticky in the General Swiss Watch Forum?

A comprehensive post, that would be used to point to, every time this comes up.

You asked this yesterday and what do you think now? I think it should. __________________

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bichondaddy1057 Senior Member Super Geek

Yep...this subject has been beat to death.... __________________

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timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,692 Real Name: Jerry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

So Invicta has been putting Chinese Swiss parts movements in watches they claim to be "Swiss Made." What excuse or explanation can they make? I'm waiting to hear how they explain this. When I say Invicta I mean Eyal. He is the CEO of the company and should know how his watches are being manufactured, and take responsibility for his company's actions. __________________

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watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkromer I think the real answer, the 5040 is an upgrade, regardless of country of origin.

I'll take a G-10 Swiss Made movement any day over a 5040 Swiss parts movement. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

to all the "BEAT TO DEATH" comments, apparently not, I personnally, have been waiting paitently for this, I have been berated, insulted, and demonized for "implying" that the brand was dishonest...........JUST STAND UP, INVICTA, i personally have spent over 12k on Invicta wathes........and knew all along what I was buying. that said, I also knew what a true Swiss watch cost. I cant afford 20-200k watch. so, I buy "shop" watches. nuf said MREXE View Public Profile Send a private message to MREXE Find all posts by MREXE Add MREXE to Your Contacts #131 Today, 07:54 PM Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Citrus Heights, CA Posts: 702 Real Name: Gary

gman66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MREXE to all the "BEAT TO DEATH" comments, apparently not, I personnally, have been waiting paitently for this, I have been berated, insulted, and demonized for "implying" that the brand was dishonest...........JUST STAND UP, INVICTA, i personally have spent over 12k on Invicta wathes........and knew all along what I was buying. that said, I also knew what a true Swiss watch cost. I cant afford 20200k watch. so, I buy "shop" watches. nuf said I recently started a thread on what would be the story of the year for Invicta. It's dormant now, but we may have a winner with how this gets handled... __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"

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RDG Senior Member True WatchGeek

Swiss, Swiss Made, Swiss Components, Swiss Parts, Swiss Cheese, who cares! __________________

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watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

So to sum this up, it is safe to assume that any Invicta with Swiss or Swiss Movement on the dial has a Swiss Parts Movement (these are code words for Asian movements).

And if it says Swiss Made then it has a Swiss Movement inside. That makes sence because if you have a Swiss Movement and it was assembled in Switzerland you would be proud to put Swiss Made on the dial and maybe the case back. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts

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Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDG Swiss, Swiss Made, Swiss Components, Swiss Parts, Swiss Cheese, who cares!

Obviously some people care or else misleading marketing (to be most charitable) wouldn't be required... __________________

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samuelrz

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,299 Real Name: Sam

Senior Member Super Geek

Swiss Made means 51% per se. Why aren't you guys complaining about the other 49%???

Stop buying Invicta and let this thread die please. __________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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bigjimzlll Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDG Swiss, Swiss Made, Swiss Components, Swiss Parts, Swiss Cheese, who cares!

You know, I really don't care about the movement so much on a less than 200 buck watch.

I do care however when I get treated like a rube. The owner of the company mislead me...his employees mislead me and I feel like an idiot for trusting them. __________________

bigjimzlll View Public Profile Send a private message to bigjimzlll Find all posts by bigjimzlll Add bigjimzlll to Your Contacts #137 Today, 08:20 PM

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watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

Time Bandit wrote: "In my example, It's not a "Swiss Parts Movement" built in China.

It is actually a Zero Jewel Chinese Movement, not a "Swiss Parts Movement" built in China.

This is a different scenario than Icewolf's scenario, where his says Swiss and it's built in China."

I see what your saying. That adds on to list of using Asian movements and labeling them as Swiss or Swiss Movements on the dials. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #138 Today, 08:23 PM

reliefcp

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,518 Real Name: C.J.

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjimzlll You know, I really don't care about the movement so much on a less than 200 buck watch.

I do care however when I get treated like a rube. The owner of the company mislead me...his employees mislead me and I feel like an idiot for trusting them.

I dont care about the movement either they make quality watches for the most part but what I cant get out of my brain is Eyal hammering home these are TOTALLY SWISS MADE watches when in fact its not true at all. __________________

reliefcp View Public Profile Send a private message to reliefcp Find all posts by reliefcp Add reliefcp to Your Contacts #139 Today, 09:37 PM

chitown Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tampa Florida Posts: 1,645

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefixit Originally Posted by RenatoDiamond Very nice, this is one of the swiss movement (not swiss made) RD's.

Sorry Gene that would be incorrect.

The words "Swiss" or "Swiss Made", usually at the 6 o'clock position on the dail, indicate a watch built meeting the guidelines of the Swiss Federation of Horology.

The words "Swiss Movement" (in the same font) indicate only a "Swiss built movement" that has been encased and assymbled into a completed watch, in a non-Swiss factory.

The words "Swiss movt." (note abbreviation) indicate a non-Swiss assymbled movement and of course watch.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

Quote: Originally Posted by 50mm&up I got a Sea Spider from InvictaShark that has a 5040D Ronda asian parts movt. It says swiss at 6:00. lol. Anybody's guess is as good as mine and it doesn't really

matter to me. You're getting a sweet RD for $90, whats the problem?

Rick I know the watch your talking about, the Sea Spider Sport.

It's the one that caused a big to-doo here because it was sold with an incorrectly labeled dail ("Swiss" meaning Swiss Made).

This mistake (by the dail manufacturer) during manufacturing wasn't caught until after the watches were finished and ready for sale.

That's why your watch is labeled as it is...doesn't mean your watch is poor in quaility by any means.

What it does mean is that you saved a hell of alot of money and got a great watch.

Search is your friend...

Here is another quote, their must be a thousand different variations on this subject A Swiss watch movement

As we have seen, to be Swiss, a watch must use a Swiss movement. According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if: • • •

it has been assembled in Switzerland; it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

If the movement fulfills these conditions, but the watch is not assembled in Switzerland, the "Swiss" indication may be affixed to one of the components of the movement. On the outside of the watch, may then only appear the "mouvement suisse" or "Swiss movement" indication. Section 3 § 3 OSM requires that the word "movement" appear in full, and be written in the same type-face, of identical size and colour, as the word "Swiss".

-----------Right -----------------------Wrong chitown View Public Profile Send a private message to chitown Send email to chitown Find all posts by chitown Add chitown to Your Contacts #140 Today, 09:50 PM

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,356 Real Name: Brad

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by chitown Here is another quote, their must be a thousand different variations on this subject A Swiss watch movement

As we have seen, to be Swiss, a watch must use a Swiss movement. According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if: • • •

it has been assembled in Switzerland; it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

If the movement fulfills these conditions, but the watch is not assembled in Switzerland, the "Swiss" indication may be affixed to one of the components of the movement. On the outside of the watch, may then only appear the "mouvement suisse" or "Swiss movement" indication. Section 3 § 3 OSM requires that the word "movement" appear in full, and be written in the same type-face, of identical size and colour, as the word "Swiss".

-----------Right -----------------------Wrong

For the umpteenth time: If a company is not a member of the Swiss Federation, they DO NOT have to comply with any of this unless there is some other controlling factor that forces them to.

In the United States: 1. Swiss Made is a registered trademark of the the Swiss Federation.

Anyone who places Swiss Made on a dial of a watch sold in the U.S. must follow the Federation requirements due to their trademark.

2. To put Swiss on the dial in the U.S. has nothing to do with the federation, you have to follow U.S. Customs country or origin labeling requirements, that specify that the country of origin is where the movement is made, the watch can be assembled anywhere and so long at it's a Swiss movement, the dial can say Swiss. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #141 Today, 10:18 PM Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 964 Real Name: Bo

Justin Time Senior Member Veteran Geek

Eye Opening and Jaw Dropping thread.

As for me, I still prefer the words "SWISS MADE" Nevertheless... that 'Apogaum" with the Chinese 7750 looks like a pretty cool watch.

Also, the Marine Militare watches always get raves from WG's __________________

Copa Mundial 2010!