Back Issue #106 by TwoMorrows Publishing

GOLDEN AGE IN BRONZE ISSUE! 2018

6 0 1 . No8.95 August

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THE ’70s REVIVAL OF THE JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA

ROY THOMAS headlines an all-star cast: GERRY CONWAY • RICK HOBERG • ARVELL JONES • BOB LAYTON PAUL LEVITZ • TOM MANDRAKE • DOUG MOENCH • JERRY ORDWAY • JOHN OSTRANDER • JOE STATON Justice Society and related characters TM & © DC Comics. All Rights Reserved.

THE RETRO COMICS EXPERIENCE!

Edited by MICHAEL EURY, BACK ISSUE magazine celebrates comic books of the 1970s, 1980s, and today through recurring (and rotating) departments like “Pro2Pro” (dialogue between professionals), “BackStage Pass” (behind-the-scenes of comics-based media), “Greatest Stories Never Told” (spotlighting unrealized comics series or stories), and more!

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“Indie Super-Heroes!” NEAL ADAMS Ms. Mystic interview, Continuity Comics, BILL BLACK Captain Paragon interview, Justice Machine history, STEVEN GRANT/ NORM BREYFOGLE Whisper “Pro2Pro” interview, and the ’80s revivals of Mighty Crusaders and T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. With BUCKLER, DEODATO, ELLIS, GRINDBERG, GUSTOVICH, ISABELLA, REINHOLD, ORDWAY, PÉREZ, & a NEAL ADAMS cover!

“Creatures of the Night!” Moon Knight’s DOUG MOENCH and BILL SIENKIEWICZ in a Pro2Pro interview, Ghost Rider, Night Nurse, Eclipso in the Bronze Age, I…Vampire, interviews with Batman writer MIKE W. BARR and Marvel’s Nightcat, JACQUELINE TAVAREZ. Featuring work by BOB BUDIANSKY, J. M. DeMATTEIS, DAVE SIMONS, ROGER STERN, TOM SUTTON, JEAN THOMAS, and more. SIENKIEWICZ and KLAUS JANSON cover!

“Marvel Fanfare Issue!” Behind the scenes of the ‘80s anthology series with AL MILGROM, interviews and art by ARTHUR ADAMS, CHRIS CLAREMONT, DAVE COCKRUM, STEVE ENGLEHART, MICHAEL GOLDEN, ROGER McKENZIE, FRANK MILLER, DOUG MOENCH, ANN NOCENTI, GEORGE PÉREZ, MARSHALL ROGERS, PAUL SMITH, KEN STEACY, CHARLES VESS, and more! Cover by SANDY PLUNKETT and GLENN WHITMORE.

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“Bird People!” Hawkman in the Bronze Age, JIM STARLIN’s Superman/Hawkgirl team-up, TIM TRUMAN’s Hawkworld, Hawk & Dove, Penguin history, Blue Falcon & Dynomutt, Condorman, and CHUCK DIXON and SCOTT McDANIEL’s Nightwing. With GERRY CONWAY, STEVE ENGLEHART, GREG GULER, RICHARD HOWELL, TONY ISABELLA, KARL KESEL, ROB LIEFELD, DENNY O’NEIL, and a GEORGE PÉREZ cover.

“DC in the ‘80s!” From the experimental to the fan faves: Behind-the-scenes looks at SECRET ORIGINS, ACTION COMICS WEEKLY, DC CHALLENGE, THRILLER, ELECTRIC WARRIOR, and SUN DEVILS. Featuring JIM BAIKIE, MARK EVANIER, DAN JURGENS, DOUG MOENCH, MARTIN PASKO, TREVOR VON EEDEN, and others! Featuring a mind-numbing Nightwing cover by ROMEO TANGHAL!

“BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES’ 25th ANNIVERSARY!” Looks back at the influential cartoon series. Plus: episode guide, Harley Quinn history, DC’s Batman Adventures and Animated Universe comic books, and tribute to artist MIKE PAROBECK. Featuring KEVIN ALTIERI, RICK BURCHETT, PAUL DINI, GERARD JONES, MARTIN PASKO, DAN RIBA, TY TEMPLETON, BRUCE TIMM, and others! BRUCE TIMM cover!

100-PAGE SPECIAL featuring Bronze Age Fanzines and Fandom! Buyer’s Guide, Comic Book Price Guide, DC’s Comicmobile, Super DC Con ’76, Comic Reader, FOOM, Amazing World of DC, Charlton Bullseye, Squa Tront, & more! ALAN LIGHT, BOB OVERSTREET, SCOTT EDELMAN, BOB GREENBERGER, JACK C. HARRIS, TONY ISABELLA, DAVID ANTHONY KRAFT, BOB LAYTON, PAUL LEVITZ, MICHAEL USLAN, and others!

ROCK ’N’ ROLL COMICS! Flash Gordon star SAM J. JONES interview, KISS in comics, Marvel’s ALICE COOPER, T. Rex’s MARC BOLAN interviews STAN LEE, PAUL McCARTNEY, Charlton’s Partridge Family, David Cassidy, and Bobby Sherman comics, Marvel’s Steeltown Rockers, Monkees comics, & Comic-Con band Seduction of the Innocent. With AMY CHU, JACK KIRBY, BILL MUMY, ALAN WEISS, and others!

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MERCS AND ANTIHEROES! Deadpool’s ROB LIEFELD and FABIAN NICIEZA interviewed! Histories of Cable, Taskmaster, Deathstroke the Terminator, the Vigilante, and Wild Dog, plus… Archie meets the Punisher?? Featuring TERRY BEATTY, MAX ALLAN COLLINS, PAUL KUPPERBERG, BATTON LASH, JEPH LOEB, DAVID MICHELINIE, MARV WOLFMAN, KEITH POLLARD, and others! Deadpool vs. Cable cover by LIEFELD!

GOLDEN ALL-STARAGE EDITORS IN BRONZE! ISSUE! ’70s Past Justice and present Society editors revival reveal “How with two I Beat Pro2Pro the Dreaded interviews: All-Star Deadline Squadron’s Doom”! Plus: ROYARCHIE THOMAS, GOODWIN JERRY ORDWAY, and MARKand GRUENWALD ARVELL JONES retrospectives, (with a bonus E. NELSON RICK HOBERG BRIDWELLinterview), interview,and DIANA The interview, ALLAN ASHERMAN Spectre’s SCHUTZJOHN OSTRANDER and TOM revisits DC’s ’70s department, MANDRAKE. Plus:editorial Liberty Legion, Air Wave, Marvel Assistant Editors’Avenger, Month, and athe hisJonni Thunder, Crimson Spectre ’87! WOOD, tory of revival PERRYof WHITE! With anCOLAN, unpublished CONWAY, GIFFEN, GIORDANO, & more! ZECK! 1981 Captain America cover by MIKE

FOURTH WORLD AFTER KIRBY! Return(s) of the New Gods, Why Can’t Mister Miracle Escape Cancellation?, the Forever People, MIKE MIGNOLA’s unrealized New Gods animated movie, Fourth World in Hollywood, and an all-star lineup, including the work of JOHN BYRNE, PARIS CULLINS, J. M. DeMATTEIS, MARK EVANIER, MICHAEL GOLDEN, RICK HOBERG, WALTER SIMONSON, and more. STEVE RUDE cover!

DEADLY HANDS ISSUE! Histories of Iron Fist, Master of Kung Fu, Yang, the Bronze Tiger, Hands of the Dragon, NEAL ADAMS’ Armor, Marvel’s Deadly Hands of Kung Fu mag, & Hong Kong Phooey! Plus Muhammad Ali in toons and toys. Featuring JOHN BYRNE, CHRIS CLAREMONT, STEVE ENGLEHART, PAUL GULACY, LARRY HAMA, DOUG MOENCH, DENNY O’NEIL, JIM STARLIN, & others. Classic EARL NOREM cover!

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Volume 1, Number 106 August 2018 EDITOR-IN-CHIEF Michael Eury PUBLISHER John Morrow

Comics’ Bronze Age and Beyond!

DESIGNER Rich Fowlks COVER ARTIST Joe Staton COVER COLORIST Glenn Whitmore COVER DESIGNER Michael Kronenberg PROOFREADER Rob Smentek SPECIAL THANKS Dewey Cassell Luigi Novi Ed Catto Dennis O’Neil Gerry Conway Jerry Ordway DC Comics John Ostrander Robert V. Conte Trevor Pearson Doiby Dickles Amanda Powers Mark Evanier Thomas Powers Len Gould Shannon E. Riley Grand Comics Bob Rozakis Database Joe Staton Robert Greenberger Dann Thomas Jack C. Harris John Trumbull Karl Heitmueller, Jr. Mark Waid Heritage Comics John Wells Auctions Rick Hoberg VERY SPECIAL The Jack Kirby THANKS Collector Roy Thomas Arvell Jones Bob Layton Paul Levitz Tom Mandrake Brian Martin Robert Menzies Ian Millsted John Morrow

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FLASHBACK: Everything Gold is New Again . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 The 1970s All-Star Comics revival and its youthful Super Squad UNKNOWN MARVEL: Bob Layton’s First Published Work for Marvel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 A new rotating department featuring Marvel UK rarities FLASHBACK: The Liberty Legion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 Move over, Invaders! Here comes Roy Thomas’ other Marvel Golden Age team ROUGH STUFF: Marvel Two-in-One #20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24 A close look at Jack Kirby’s cover art for Marvel’s Thing/Liberty Legion team-up FLASHBACK: Air Wave in the Bronze Age . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 A little-known Golden Ager makes a Bronze Age comeback PRO2PRO: Roy Thomas, Jerry Ordway, and Arvell Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 An All-Star Squadron interview with the men who fell to Earth-Two INTERVIEW: Rick Hoberg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46 A chat with the All-Star Squadron artist PRINCE STREET NEWS: Welcome, Golden Agers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48 A new cartoon by Karl Heitmueller, Jr. BEYOND CAPES: Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51 Remembering the Thomas/Giordano superhero/P.I. hybrid FLASHBACK: The Crimson Avenger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56 DC’s first masked hero and his 1988 miniseries INTERVIEW: Doug Moench and the Spectre . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 The first post-Crisis revival of the Ghostly Guardian PRO2PRO: John Ostrander and Tom Mandrake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71 The Spectre team supreme discusses their take on the character BACK TALK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77 Reader reactions BACK ISSUE™ is published 8 times a year by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614. Michael Eury, Editor-in-Chief. John Morrow, Publisher. Editorial Office: BACK ISSUE, c/o Michael Eury, Editor-in-Chief, 118 Edgewood Avenue NE, Concord, NC 28025. Email: euryman@gmail.com. Eight-issue subscriptions: $76 Economy US, $125 International, $32 Digital. Please send subscription orders and funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial office. Cover art by Joe Staton. Justice Society of America, All-Star Squadron, Jonni Thunder, the Spectre, and related characters TM & © DC Comics. All Rights Reserved. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © 2018 Michael Eury and TwoMorrows. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 1

The Justice Society of America first appeared in Justice League of America #113 (Oct. 1974). We all know that’s not true, but just stay with me for a minute. The issue featured a team-up between the two groups that was really my first exposure to the JSA. The comic was also one of the giant-size 100-page beauties that DC was publishing at the time (see BI #81 for a thorough examination of those Super Spectaculars). So, in addition to the lead tale, there was also a reprint of a Golden Age adventure of the Society that came from All-Star Comics #41 (June–July 1948). I suspect a lot of other readers were first exposed to the JSA around that time—not as a group per se, since they had been teaming up with the JLA on an annual basis since issue #21 (Aug. 1963) of the League’s title, but as the stars of their own adventures. Justice League of America #110 (Mar.–Apr. 1974) before, and #115 (Jan.–Feb. 1975) after, also featured reprints of Golden Age Justice Society stories, but there was certainly little or no chance that we youngsters would have ever seen or in most cases been aware of the original comics. However, when the Justice Society returned to headline their own book once more with All-Star Comics #58 (Jan.–Feb. 1976), we were ready. Slight glitch here, though. When the JSA returned, they were, kind of, sort of, not really the stars of the book.

by B

THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

It begins with the cover. In the Golden Age, the group never had a real logo on the cover of All-Star. Upon revival there was a little shield mid-right saying, “Featuring the Justice Society of America.” Great. Also, preceding that was “All-Star Comics presents… Super Squad!” To reinforce the idea, the JSA lay defeated in the foreground while the Squad races in to save them. Welcome back, guys. The Super Squad was not composed of total unknowns, for the most part. They consisted of the StarSpangled Kid, a Golden Age hero who had returned from limbo in Justice League #100– 102 (Aug.–Oct. 1972); the Earth-Two Robin, who had previously appeared in two JLA/JLA team-ups; and a new character identified on the banner atop the cover as Power Girl. The new group name came about because “I had this theory,” begins initial writer and editor Gerry Conway. “Putting out this book with the All-Star Super Squad would seem brand new and would gain more attention than putting out a book called Justice Society gerry conway of America, which people might confuse with the Justice League of America.” Courtesy of Gerry Conway. The creative team on this historical relaunch consisted of scribe Conway, Ric Estrada wielding the pencil, and industry legend Wally Wood finishing the art. Estrada has since passed away, but he commented in the All-Star Companion (ASC) vol. 3 that he got the job

Earth-Two Titans Make way, JSA, for the Super Squad! All-Star Comics #58 (Jan.–Feb. 1976), featuring the first appearance of Power Girl. Cover by Mike Grell. TM & © DC Comics.

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rian Martin

because “my style was very direct and very simple—plus I happened to be available at the time.” Inside, the JSA does get the benefit of first appearance, as the six members showcased at the start (Flash, Hawkman, Dr. Mid-Nite, Wildcat, Dr. Fate, and Green Lantern) gaze at a computer screen as they evaluate a threat they received the day before. The computer confirms that three disasters will occur at different locations on Earth, and if allowed to happen could wipe out life on the planet. Suffice to say the heroes do not want this to happen and split up to handle these crises. Why those six to start with? “The ones I picked were my favorites of the JSA,” says Conway. “But also they were characters I thought had potential, characters who had interesting speech patterns and personality traits, characters I thought sat well with the kind of stories I wanted to tell.” The issue’s story structure mirrors the construction of early All-Star and Justice rik estrada League issues where the team would split up to handle various aspects of a DC Wikia.com. menace. In this case it also allows each JSA pairing to meet up with and to introduce one of the Super Squad. Further, it acted as a device for storyteller Conway. “I felt when you are introducing a bunch of what were new characters to most readers, the most effective way to get to the essence of them is to have them play off against one other character. You would have the contrast, have time to develop characterization, potential conflict, and so on.” Hawkman and Dr. Mid-Nite encounter the StarSpangled Kid in Seattle, Washington, as that Pacific Northwest city is struck by an earthquake. The Kid has been given a power boost since previous appearances when he was merely another youngster in a costume who fought crime. Here he is in possession of Starman’s Cosmic Rod, as the Golden Age crimefighter has bequeathed it to him while laid up with a broken leg. In Capetown, South Africa [“Capetown” in the comic but “Cape Town” in reality—ed.], Green Lantern and Dr. Fate meet up with Robin to combat a massive leak of fluorocarbons into the atmosphere, while Flash and Wildcat gain the assistance of Power Girl when a volcano erupts in Peking. Much has been written in many other places [including BI #33 and 71—ed.] about Power Girl’s costume and physical attributes, so we will merely quote Ric Estrada from ASC on his contribution to the character. “I do know they liked the way I drew women, because I had done a lot of romance stories. I drew girls sexy, but not too muscular like they became later. I think they gave me a prototype for the costume and I sort of slicked it up a bit.” [Editor’s note: That costume prototype was by Joe Orlando and was shown in BACK ISSUE #33.] Since this is the first-ever appearance of Power Girl, she explains to Flash and Wildcat that she is the cousin of their Earth’s Superman while citing a lack of time to relate her history. Conway tells BI his plans for an origin were not concrete, but “I wanted to portray her as much

Wise Guy Brainwave thinks up trouble for his arch-foes in ASC #58. By Conway/ Estrada/Wood. TM & © DC Comics.

Breakout Star We can’t take our eyes off of the dynamic Power Girl on this stunning Estrada/Wood art page from All-Star #58. Courtesy of Heritage Comics Auctions (www.ha.com). TM & © DC Comics.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 3

Agents of Shield (left) Beginning with All-Star #59, the JSA’s shieldenclosed name got a bigger cover spotlight. (right) The villainous Vulcan has an axe to grind in issue #60. Covers by Ernie Chua. TM & © DC Comics.

more aggressive, assertive, and more of a feminist who would never have allowed herself to be put in a box the way Supergirl was. “So my thought was we were going to find out that she had developed into a young adult before she ever encountered Superman, and he tried to constrain her and she’s like, ‘No!’ And part of the definition of her character would have been that she didn’t take his name. She didn’t wear the Kryptonian symbol and wasn’t trying to be a female version of Superman.” Power Girl also reveals that she knows who is behind all these disasters, the Golden Age baddie Brainwave (alternately, Brain Wave). As well, she coins the term Super Squad (alternately, Super-Squad) to distinguish this new assemblage of heroes. The reader has been aware of Brainwave for a while, but still might have been a little confused as the villain shown behind the scenes is an impressive physical specimen while in his previous appearances he was portrayed as a small man with a large cranium. Before we move on, we must mention the letters page of the comic. Many comics sent out preview copies of new launches to established fans so they would have some early reactions to print. For the relaunch of All-Star, Conway did not even have to think about to whom to send copies. Roy Thomas and Jerry Bails were easily the two most famous fans of the Golden Age All-Star, and comments from both populated this first column. In the ASC Thomas and Conway mention that it was Thomas’ suggestion that prompted Conway to inquire about reviving the title, and that Conway offered to let Thomas ghost-write an issue, an offer Thomas declined since he wanted any JSA story he wrote to have his name on it. Conway’s story continues in the next issue with Robin determining that the gas leak is an illusion, while Star-Spangled Kid seals an earthquakecreated crevice. Since Power Girl had sealed the volcano in the previous issue, I think we can see a pattern developing. The various groups independently discover that Brainwave is operating from an orbiting satellite. As they converge, we find the reason for these disasters is so Brainwave can harness some of the released super-energy to revive a Golden Age ally of his, Degaton. Like Brainwave, the character in All-Star #59 bears little if any resemblance to his GA appearance, and also exhibits a genius level intellect he did not have before. The villainous duo employs a last-ditch doomsday weapon, but the Super Squad defeats them when Power Girl pushes the satellite closer to the sun. As it collapses, Brainwave shrinks back down to the bald,

bespectacled figure known in the Golden Age, his robust physique merely an illusion. That illusion would persist in the villain’s subsequent appearances, though, and eventually become the fighting togs of his son Brainwave, Jr. in later years. The deviation in the portrayal of Degaton is not given any explanation, though Gerry Conway mentions, “I didn’t feel any great commitment to following some ritualistic embracing of the mythology. I wanted to use what seemed good to me and ignore what didn’t.” The theme of a generational gap rears its head for the first time as the tale ends and the collection of heroes agrees to stay together under the Super Squad banner. Wildcat comments on how much the youngsters can learn from the old hands, prompting Power Girl to list off all of the contributions the “kids” made to the just-concluded adventure. Variations on this theme would underlie many tales in the series, with Conway commenting, “These are characters who have at least 20-to-25-year age differences and we definitely would have seen some conflict arise out of that, as well as some mentoring and some awkward friendships.” Though trumpeted on the first cover and prominently featured in the first two issues, strangely, Robin would not be a member after that. Gerry Conway feels, “I was probably urged to put in a Batman connection by publisher Carmine Infantino, but I just didn’t feel like he contributed anything to the story. It just wasn’t making it interesting. I was more interested in the Star-Spangled Kid and Power Girl, who had more personality to them and fulfilled some of the same functions.”

DEATH AND THE MAIDEN

Continuing the generational theme, as issue #60 (May–June 1976) begins, charging down the hall of JSA headquarters in a foot race come Power Girl and the Flash. PG leads early, but Flash ends up the victor. However, winning the race was not the young Kryptonian’s objective— she’s looking for something else. Feeling the Society members still think of her as a kid, by forcing Flash to actually strain a little, Power Girl earns the modicum of respect she was really seeking. The villain of the piece this time around is an axe-wielding, armor-plated foe calling himself Vulcan, who breaks into JSA headquarters, battles a quartet of our heroes to a standstill, then leaves, setting the building on fire in the process! Concurrently, Green Lantern is pondering the dire financial straits his broadcasting company is in, but is interrupted by Dr. Fate. The duo

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end up investigating the origin of Vulcan as Fate has received dire psychic emanations that lead them to an Army base where they discover that Vulcan was originally a hero-idolizing astronaut who was involved in a terrible accident and blames his hero worship for his condition. With Vulcan’s attack on the JSA rationalized, Lantern and Fate track him to a city rooftop, but the battle ends when the villain causes an entire building to collapse on Fate. The first creative change happens with this issue as a young Keith Giffen replaces Estrada as penciler, even though Giffen stated in that ASC, “I was just the layout artist. I can make a claim to some design work, the pacing of the story… then Woody would come along with his people and work his magic over the top of it.” Giffen’s stay would be slightly longer than Estrada’s, but not by much. During this tale, another facet of the advancing age of the Society members rears its head. As the group stands outside their burning headquarters, watching the firemen do their duty, Flash’s wife Joan arrives, worried about his welfare since he’s “not a young man anymore.” To placate her, he leaves with her. Not an everyday occurrence in superhero tales, to be sure. “This is a guy who’s in his late 40s, early 50s,” relates Conway. “His family is his touchstone. At one point the JSA would have been, but now his wife is. Having him leave with his wife made sense to me. The focus was intended to shift to those younger keith giffen characters. The kind of stories I wanted to tell were designed for the readers who were DC.Wikia.com. closer to my age.” Green Lantern summons the rest of the Society away from this scene to help dig out Dr. Fate. They do so, but their colleague is dangerously close to death. All current members of the team help except one. Power Girl has impetuously flown off on her own, a characteristic this fledgling creation would exhibit quite frequently early on. She has discovered a downed spacecraft and finds the creature within was actually responsible for the creation of Vulcan. When she brings the two together, the enraged axeman barbecues the alien on the spot. Luckily, he revealed Vulcan’s weakness to PG beforehand and the villain is defeated. The tale does not end happily, though, as Dr. Mid-Nite proclaims it will take a miracle to save Dr. Fate. Issue #62 (Sept.–Oct. 1976) begins with another creator change. With credits reading, “Gerry Conway – plot, Paul Levitz – patter [script], Keith Giffen – pacing [layouts], Wally Wood – pictures [finishes],” besides formalizing the demarcation of artistic duties that Giffen commented on previously, it also marks the final Conway contribution, as he had since departed DC to go back to Marvel. Paul Levitz, who had been Conway’s assistant editor from the series’ inception, would author the rest of the run and continue Conway’s plotlines, though he tells BACK ISSUE, “I don’t recall any specific conversations with Gerry about subplots. It’s certainly possible he mentioned his thoughts as he turned in his issues.” As they try everything they can to save their colleague, a clue sends a freshly returned Flash with Green Lantern off to Egypt, the place where Dr. Fate was “born.” The remaining heroes are sidetracked by the revival of a Lemurian wizard

As Seen on the CW… …Supergirl racing the Flash—Bronze Age Earth-Two style! Power Girl puts Jay Garrick through the paces on the opener of ASC #60. By Conway/ Giffen/Wood. TM & © DC Comics.

JSA HQ—and a Super-Squinter! From All-Star #62 (Sept.–Oct. 1976), a look at the team’s headquarters, plus the return of the Golden Age Man of Steel. Written by Conway and Levitz, art by Giffen and Wood. TM & © DC Comics.

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Cat vs. Bird The Fiddler and Solomon Grundy make mischief on this beautiful original art page (by Giffen and Wood) from ASC #63, Levitz’s first as the solo scribe. TM & © DC Comics.

named Zanadu (a play on Xanadu from poet Samuel actually the Injustice Society. The story reprinted in JLA Taylor Coleridge), who has kidnapped Hawkman’s wife. #113 had featured the group and later letters pages This causes the group to call in some help: in this pointed out the error. Levitz had already realized this case, a retired and very Joe Shuster-looking and it is corrected in the next issue.) That next issue reveals that the music is Superman. “That was right out of one of the old Fleisher cartoons,” Giffen revealed in courtesy of the Fiddler, of course. For muscle ASC. “To me, no one should ever know he has brought Solomon Grundy with what color Superman’s eyes are because him. Luckily, the Kryptonian pair, he is always squinting.” Strangely, frustrated by Zanadu, help defeat the they leave behind Hourman, who had two villains. Unfortunately, their Lemurian arrived with the Flash, causing this foe has escaped, still holding Hawkman’s first-generation hero to have second wife captive. thoughts about how he might fit in Back home, last-ditch efforts to save with the current incarnation of the JSA. Dr. Fate prove futile, causing Dr. Mid-Nite The generation gap widens. to contemplate giving up the superhero life, another elder statesman Appearing in Tokyo, Zanadu prepares to sink the island. While Power confronted by the passage of time. paul levitz Girl and Superman confront the mad Just then Zanadu appears overhead, © Luigi Novi / Wikimedia Commons. wizard, Hawkman and Wildcat attempt still intent on destruction. This prompts to help the populace, until Wildcat hears music and Hourman and the Star-Spangled Kid to attack him, assaults his teammate proclaiming himself a member of and during the battle the Kid sends Zanadu crashing the Injustice Gang! (Problem is, Earth-Two’s version is into JSA headquarters. Finally having had enough, the wizard marshals all of his Chaos energy to destroy them. Unbeknownst to him, this concentration of mystical energy reawakens the almost-.dead brain of Order servant Dr. Fate, reviving him. Taking Zanadu by surprise, Fate defeats him. As the dust settles, Superman realizes that he should stay retired, but another theme that runs through these issues—that of succession—appears as Supes insists the JSA take Power Girl as his replacement. Until this point PG and the Kid were not JSAers, just Super Squad members. Changes on the creative side continue as we arrive at issue #64 (Jan.–Feb. 1977). Keith Giffen is gone as penciler, and Wally Wood takes over complete art chores. Just so no one thought Power Girl was the only one championing the youth in this series, as the issue begins, Star-Spangled Kid reveals he has returned the Cosmic Rod to Starman and replaced it with a Cosmic Converter Belt he developed himself, adding in the jibe that “ideas are the province of youth.” Power Girl comments that it is fitting he has a new device since they have both been made Justice Society members. This pretty much puts an end to the Super Squad concept, though it would hold on to the cover spot a little longer. Signaled that Dr. Fate has recovered, the Flash and Hawkman return, but they are not alone. Hinted at in the previous couple of issues, the Shining Knight arrives with them. Strangely, there is no reunion between he and the Kid, even though they had served together in the Seven Soldiers of Victory (a.k.a. the Law’s Legionnaires) in the Golden Age. Maybe it was simply due to the fact that the Knight has a vital message to deliver. It seems someone is attempting to change history, and Merlin (yes, that Merlin) has summoned the Knight to help. Our heroes quickly agree to provide assistance, with Superman remaining just a bit longer. Fortunately, Flash reveals he has developed a Time Vortex—similar to his Earth-One counterpart’s Cosmic Treadmill—that will allow them to travel into the past. The group decides that Hourman should man the controls, further fueling the older hero’s alienation. The real shocker is when Green Lantern leaves, declaring he has neglected his business for too long—behavior that was probably unique to a senior character. Heading back to the time of Camelot, the JSA discovers the chronometric finagling is all a plan of Vandal Savage, another Golden Age foe returned. Savage was always known as an immortal, but now reveals he has lost that

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attribute and requires Superman’s death to get it back! Wally Wood is both plotter and artist of issue #65, an issue that shifts the action to a far-off world Savage has created, complete with kryptonite suns. Here he tries to kill Superman, steal the Man of Steel’s superhuman life force, and thereby restore his immortality. The Society throws a monkey wrench into his plans. The JSA forces Savage to retreat, but as he flees, a dark vortex opens up in front of him and two shadowy figures pull him inside. Unfortunately, any ideas concerning the continuation of this plotline must have perished with Wally Wood as it was never continued. Paul Levitz comments that he has no recollection of how it was intended to be resolved. Marv Wolfman was the next writer to use the once-again-immortal villain in Action Comics #515 (Jan. 1981), and no mention of this plot twist is made.

A LOGO OF THEIR OWN

With issue #66 (May–June 1977), there on the cover, bigger than life and just as beautiful, is the logo “Justice Society of America”—36 years after their debut. (And Rodney Dangerfield used to say he got no respect!) “I never cared for ‘Super Squad,’ ” Levitz stated in ASC. “I guess I’m a traditionalist.” A big change was in the offing art-wise, as well. Wally Wood has departed and in his place is Joe Staton, who takes up residence as penciler for the rest of the title’s lifespan and beyond. He is joined by inker Bob Layton, who would stay for a while as well. The story they illustrate begins with Superman departing and the JSA returning home to find their headquarters has been taken over by the remaining members of the Injustice Society, who have had the Icicle freeze Hourman and Wildcat. After a short battle the villains escape, taking their captives with them. The bad guys leave clues as to where they have gone, and the JSA split up to track them down. The Star-Spangled Kid does not like the chosen teams and scoops up Power Girl in his arms and heads off. This seeming attraction would continue for years to come, basically unrequited, until Roy Thomas pretty much settled the matter in a conversation between the two in Infinity, Inc. #30 (Sept. 1986). Advice to the lovelorn aside, there was still the matter of a pair of kidnapped teammates to attend to. Dr. Fate assists Flash and Hawkman in rescuing Hourman, and they take him to see Robin (still in South Africa), for medical assistance. With Fate a little befuddled by recent events, he finds Robin suspicious as to what is going on, and a subplot is set in motion. The Kid and PG rescue Wildcat in a battle that takes place at an oil refinery in Alaska. In a welcome show of continuity, just before PG puts the finishing touches on the Wizard, rather than get socked he offers to move to Earth-One, something he had already done in DC’s Secret Society of Super-Villains title. The villains defeated, the trio notices some strange pipes descending into the Earth, and with Power Girl’s prompting they decide to investigate. Plunging into the bowels of the Earth, they come up against the grayish-green, trollish Ayrn the Underlord and his minions, in league with the Injustice Society in an attempt to control the world’s oil supply. Flash and Hawkman arrive and together they defeat this bizarre foe. Back home, the strange behavior of Green Lantern is getting worse, and is about to come to a head. There’s just one little side trip we have to take first.

SO, HOW DID YOU GUYS MEET?

As hard as it is to believe in this day when a single character’s origin might take up an arc encompassing their series’ first four issues, the Justice Society sprang to life in All-Star Comics #3 (Winter 1940) as an already-functioning unit. That issue featured a meeting wherein they merely related solo stories to each other, but by #4 they were tackling problems as a group. In that less origin-obsessed time, the JSA went the entire Golden Age and never received one, and that continued right up until this point. Enough is enough, right? But the impetus for the telling of the tale came from an unexpected event. The letters page of All-Star #66 mentions a request from reader Charles Patterson. Mr. Patterson asked if, for the benefit of new readers, DC could reprint the origin tale of the Justice Society. Those involved thought the suggestion had merit and headed off to the DC library to find it—only to discover that there had never been such a story. So, with a cover date of September 1977, this oversight was finally remedied, but even then, though the regular creative team was on hand, the story did not appear in the group’s own book, but in DC Special #29. “We were doing extra-long specials fairly regularly, and it seemed a story worth the space,” comments Paul Levitz.

Logo Upgrade After having their team name appear in either type font or (top left) as a lettered logo tagline, the Justice Society finally got a real logo beginning with (top right) All-Star #66 (May–June 1977). Issue #65’s cover by Wally Wood, issue #66’s cover by Rich Buckler and Jack Abel. (bottom) Paul Levitz was tapped to tell “The Untold Origin of the Justice Society” in DC Special #29 (Aug.–Sept. 1977). Cover by Neal Adams. TM & © DC Comics.

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You Dropped the Bomb on Me Superman arrives in the nick of time on this utterly gorgeous Joe Staton/ Bob Layton page from DC Special #29. Courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

joe staton © Luigi Novi / Wikimedia Commons.

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The plot Levitz devised is fairly straightforward. In 1940 a British agent appeals to FDR for help as the Brits have discovered that Hitler plans to invade England. Since the president has promised to keep out of the war, he offers another solution: America’s mystery men. Initially the agent contacts Batman, Green Lantern, and the Flash. As the mission becomes more difficult, through the intervention of Dr. Fate, all those who would comprise the initial Justice Society are drafted into service and the Fuehrer’s plan is thwarted. Of course, that simple summary leaves out the Valkyries. And the Spear of Destiny, the mystical object said to have pierced Christ’s side on the cross and subsequently used by Roy Thomas in All-Star Squadron #4 (Dec. 1981) to explain why the JSA did not use their powers to end WWII much quicker. And the bomber targeting Washington. And the Atom saving FDR’s life. But you get the gist. In the end, the president thinks this assemblage of heroes is a good idea, and maybe the second most original idea in comics history finally has an origin. As a prime mover in the story, Dr. Fate exhibits many of the visual motifs that Joe Staton would use quite often. According to the artist, the template for these images was a fairly recent depiction. “The ankh and a good bit of the look of Dr. Fate were picked up directly from the 1st Issue Special that Walter Simonson had done with Martin Pasko.” [Editor’s note: This Dr. Fate story, from 1st Issue Special #9 (Dec. 1975), was examined in BI #24, and the entire run of FIS was covered in BI #71.]

A Team in Trouble (left) Green Lantern mixes it up with his JSA pals on the Al Milgrom/Jack Abel cover to All-Star #68. (below) From inside, Commissioner Bruce Wayne takes action. TM & © DC Comics.

YOU’RE A PSYCHO!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch… er, sorry, All-Star Comics, Green Lantern’s behavior finally comes to a head, and receives an explanation. Since leaving the team in #64, he has watched his company be dismantled, and wondered if this is the reward he gets for being a hero. But as he stands in contemplation, a stranger comes along and comments on his state of despair. When he subsequently goes on a destructive rampage, we find he has fallen under the spell of another old-time villain, the Psycho Pirate. Although there was a Golden Age Pirate, this is the Silver Age version seen in Showcase #56 (May–June 1965), a Dr. Fate/Hourman team-up. This is how the JSA finds GL, tearing up an airstrip, as issue #68 begins. After an initial clash, GL and the Pirate escape and the JSA regroups at their headquarters. There they argue over why they cannot track the Pirate, and Flash becomes disgusted, saying it’s time he looked after himself, and leaves to join the other pair, disappearing quickly. Though not mentioned in the story, could the Flash’s motivation be connected to his leaving the group in #61 to look after his family life? Dr. Fate finally realizes that the reason they cannot find their friends and foe is that they are no longer on Earth-Two, but have escaped to Earth-One. Armed with this knowledge, they quickly track them down, and after Wildcat uses a tip from his old boxing coach to beat the Pirate, the two JSAers are free. With this issue there is a minor creative credit change (don’t worry, no one left) as Levitz, Staton, and Layton all share the title of “storytellers” since the artists had begun to offer story ideas as well. During this time, the JSA still took part in their yearly team-up with the JLA. These days, of course, that would be grounds for a crossover tale between the two titles, but back in the ’70s the story appeared solely in the League’s book. There was a concession to All-Star, though, as shortly after issue #68 the annual team-up began in JLA #147 (Oct. 1977). That comic featured a prologue showing the JSA and their captive at the JLA satellite, ready to head back home before that year’s mayhem broke loose. Home, however, is definitely not where the heart is. Dr. Fate’s avoidance of Robin’s questions when he entrusted Hourman to his care, along with Green Lantern’s rampage, have combined to raise the suspicions of the one-time Boy Wonder and his former dynamic partner Bruce Wayne—so much so that when the team arrives home, Wayne is waiting to arrest them for reckless endangerment. Stir in Power Girl’s emotional response and a trigger-happy police officer, and the JSA find themselves on the run. How do you bring in a group of superheroes? With other superheroes, of course. Wayne calls in the retired Society members to bring in the current team. This leads to a protracted battle that only ends with the

commanding voice of probably the only being who could halt all these heroes: Superman. Amid the ceasefire he asks them all why they didn’t question Wayne’s motives more. Upon doing so, all realize Wayne too had fallen under the sway of the Psycho Pirate, and they free him. With all well again, we pull back to see a shadowy figure has been watching the proceedings.

DON’T CALL ME BATGIRL!

This shadowy figure would be formally introduced into the book’s pages late in #70 (Jan.–Feb. 1978), after appearing on the cover, but unlike the JSA she would be given an origin right off the bat (sorry). DC Super-Stars #17 (Dec. 1977) actually came out at the same time as All-Star #69. The book featured a retelling of Green Arrow’s origin, a tale that expanded on the beginning of the Legion of Super-Heroes, and the introduction of the Huntress! “On inker Bob Layton’s suggestion, we all agreed Power Girl was probably a bit lonesome surrounded by mostly middle-aged guys in the JSA and that she’d like another female character to talk to,” relates Joe Staton. “Paul Levitz and I agreed and Paul developed the origin of the Huntress, with input from colorist Anthony Tollin, so that she was the daughter of the Earth-Two Batman and Catwoman. I worked up the design with oversight by Joe Orlando. Tony is also responsible for the color scheme of her costume incorporating elements of both her parents’ costumes.” The story in DCSS relates the Bat/Cat-couple’s history, and when Catwoman is blackmailed into resuming her criminal career only to die in the resulting caper, the seeds are set for the creation of a new Gotham Guardian. When asked why the heroine was given an entire story to herself, Levitz tells BACK ISSUE it was “just the opportunity to tell the story at greater length than would have been possible in an issue with a handful of other heroes.” The Huntress is prominent on All-Star #70’s cover, but there was a little story to set up before her official entrance. After a full Justice Society meeting almost all of the team members head off, leaving Star-Spangled Kid, Power Girl, and Wildcat to mind the store. When PG chastises the Kid for suggesting they play Monopoly, probably further torpedoing

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Spreading Their Wings (left) After a quick cameo in All-Star Comics #69 marked her first appearance, the Huntress swooped into the spotlight on the Milgrom/Abel cover to issue #70 (Jan.–Feb. 1978). (top right) Huntress reveals her parentage to Wildcat in ASC #71. (bottom right) Hawkman’s new headgear, from ASC #72. Both by Levitz/ Staton/Layton. TM & © DC Comics.

his amorous ambitions, Power Girl leaves and heads straight into a three-issue solo stint in Showcase #97–99 (Feb.–Apr. 1978) that Levitz and Staton teamed with inkers Joe Orlando and Dick Giordano to create. It is interesting to note that though All-Star was bimonthly at the time, there were a number of extracurricular outings for the characters. The Kid and Wildcat head to a bar, but then catch wind of a bank robbery being perpetrated by a high-tech gang called the Strike Force. The group is so well equipped that they manage to capture the Society pair. Huntress makes her debut on the last two pages of the issue as she attempts a rescue, but they run smack-dab into the full Force. The following issue details the battle between the trio and the Strike Force. The major revelation of the tale is that the Force’s leader is Star-Spangled Kid’s nephew! Since the Kid was lost in time for a number of years, his nephew is now older than he, which just adds to the Kid’s shock. As the story ends, SSK realizes there is a lot of his life that he has to put back together. This mirrors a plotline used a few times for another temporally lost hero, Captain America, but the Kid’s departure has more to do with one of the creators involved as Levitz revealed in ASC that the character was “never a favorite of mine, had a complex backstory.” Conveniently, the Huntress is right there to take his roster spot, tangentially furthering the succession theme since SSK was originally a Golden Age character. You may notice that the name Joe Staton appears as the penciler for a lot of comics at the time, particularly Earth-Two material. Fact is, along with all the stories mentioned he managed to shoehorn in a new Dr. Fate origin story in DC Special Series #10 (1978) and somehow include the non-Earth-Two but character-packed Showcase #100 (May 1978). “How did I fit it all in,” recalls Staton. “I was young and it never occurred to me that I had limits.” After later illustrating Black

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Canary’s origin in Secret Origins #50 [Aug. 1990, about which you learned more in BI #98—ed.], Staton feels he has had a connection to that mythical world and says, “I was very happy on Earth-Two, and whenever something in that territory was on order I put my name in for consideration.” That thought has permeated fan culture to some extent as Joe says, “This year at the New York Comic-Con the JSA cosplayers called me over to pose with all the gang. I think I’m now the official mascot of the JSA and Earth-Two.”

JUST A THORN IN MY SIDE

All-Star’s 72nd issue (May–June 1978) finds the team combatting another Golden Age returnee, the Thorn, who is killing anyone in the way of her establishing a criminal empire. The JSA first crosses paths with her as she targets a judge. During their confrontation, Thorn scratches Wildcat with one of her poisoned thorns, and this leads to the explanation of a character point that had vexed some readers for a while. Since issue #66, there had been subtle changes in Wildcat’s speech pattern. Ted Grant, Wildcat’s alter ego, was a former boxing Heavyweight Champion of the World. Now his speech was beginning to reflect that as he began to sound more and more like a punch-drunk pugilist. In issue #72 we find out that when he was frozen by the Icicle’s gun back in #65, it caused a brain injury. That injury protects him now, but is preventing him from being cured of the poison at the same time. Doctors diagnose that they need a sample of the poison as well as Icicle’s gun if they are to save Wildcat. Luckily the gun resides in the JSA trophy room and Huntress is dispatched to retrieve it. The remaining adventurers encounter Thorn again, and thanks to the intervention of another returning foe, the Sportsmaster, they go down to defeat. But they come away with one of Thorn’s weapons dosed with the all-important poison sample.

The mission to retrieve the gun has hit a snag as well, as the Sportsmaster is married—to the original Huntress, a villainess. In a variation of the legacy theme, she is unhappy that a crimefighter has usurped her moniker and has laid traps for the heroic Huntress. If there seem to be a lot of 1940s villains cropping up, it’s not your imagination. Levitz admits, “I’m not great at villain creation, so I always leaned towards using legacy elements.” Pencil artist Joe Staton has some feelings regarding resuscitating rouges as well, telling BACK ISSUE, “I liked working with Solomon Grundy in the Huntress solo stories in the back of Wonder Woman. I also liked Rose and Thorn, but the villains in the series were never the main attraction. The Sportsmaster was especially annoying, with the sports gear. A ’40s idea that shows why not all ’40s ideas were good ones.” Issue #73 features the battle of the Huntresses, with the heroic version coming out on top. While the other members who debuted in this series replaced heroic predecessors, the new Huntress has to claim her legacy from a player on the other side. Afterwards, in true superhero fashion, she delivers Icicle’s gun just in time to save Wildcat’s life. This episode may have been meant to have further resonance, for while Joe Staton notes, “I was really fond of Paul Levitz’s take on Wildcat, with him being a boxer who had taken a couple too many punches to the head,” he also reveals, “I think there was a potential relationship of some sort between Wildcat and Huntress, though we never got around to it.” In issue #72, Hawkman unveils some new headgear, a move mostly motivated by the creative team since they all felt his mask at the time was just a glorified “bag on his head.” Staton tells BI, “I generally like heritage costumes, but I like the new version we came up with to look more Egyptian. I think it’s cool that our version is what Legends of Tomorrow on TV uses.” All-Star #74 (Sept.–Oct. 1978) benefited from the much-ballyhooed “DC Explosion” by having its story expanded from 17 pages to 25. And just in time, too, as all of the active members are pressed into service after a being called the Master Summoner tells Dr. Fate and Hawkman that it is a time of “Stellar Conjunction,” a time that will only last a few hours, but during which certain events may happen which will cause the end of life on Earth. Successful at preventing these events at first, the heroes’ efforts only seem to be making matters worse as things progress. This leads Fate to

Final Issue A poster-worthy group shot by Joe Staton and Dick Giordano graced the cover to All-Star’s last ish, #74, as did a modified Justice Society logo. TM & © DC Comics.

the realization that their powers are being channeled by the real villain, the Summoner, who intends to use that power to malicious ends. Sounds a fair bit like the basic plot that began this revival, doesn’t it? The irony of that will soon become apparent. The heroes instead stop all their actions, and when those few hours have passed, the Summoner appears to vent his frustration. His plan has been foiled. As the issue ends, we are given a preview box hyping the next issue, in which “One of the JSAers dies!” The real world was about to give the character a slightly longer lease on life, though, as #74 was the final issue of All-Star, and the story intended for the next issue would have to wait four months for publication. That plot similarity seems a nice bookend now, doesn’t it? A couple of final notes on All-Star Comics: Issue #74’s letters page gives a rundown on who is currently considered a member of the JSA. Of those listed, only two do not appear in this issue: Wildcat, who is listed as still recovering from his injuries, and Mr. Terrific, who is said to be absent for reasons revealed in another magazine. Research reveals that the comic they are probably referring to was never published! In issue #15 of Secret Society of Super-Villains, a group led by the Wizard began capturing JSAers one by one—but that was the final issue. Issue #16 was intended to showcase a battle between Mr. Terrific and Blockbuster. If the issue had been published it would have been a wonderful example of in-company continuity. If this supposition is correct, you just wonder about SSOSV #15, where the Atom and Dr. Mid-Nite had been captured, and then appeared in All-Star #74. Oh, well, still an admirable effort. Finally, the letters page of #70 mentioned that another Justice Society Special was scheduled for 1978 and would again feature a WWII adventure. Paul Levitz reveals that the story never made it past the initial idea stage.

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THE ADVENTURE CONTINUES

The JSA’s Big Adventure After the cancellation of All-Star Comics, the JSA found a home within the Dollar Comicsformatted Adventure Comics. Issue #461 (Jan.–Feb. 1979) cover by Jim Aparo. TM & © DC Comics.

Adventure Comics was one of DC’s longest-running titles, and also one of its most mercurial. After housing long runs of Aquaman, Superboy, the Legion of Super-Heroes, and Supergirl, among others, by issue #459 (Sept.– Oct. 1978) it had morphed into a 68-page anthology title in DC’s then-new Dollar Comics format [check out BI #57 for the story of DC’s Dollar Comics—ed.]. With Adventure #461 (Jan.–Feb. 1979), the Justice Society took up residence amid the mix of features, their inclusion being a last-minute decision. A cover for the issue was all ready to go, but to highlight the JSA’s unexpected arrival, Deadman, previously the cover’s centerpiece, was displaced by a new Jim Aparo JSA shot. The first half of the story meant for All-Star #75 is presented here, and since the story was originally conceived as one 25-page story, to flesh it out to a slightly longer piece, a capsule history of Earth-Two precedes this portion. Generational issues lead off the tale with Flash testing the strength of Power Girl and Green Lantern’s ring at the

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same time. When the ring emerges the victor and the two elders ignore her, PG leaves in a huff. She doesn’t have time to sulk, as the JSA is summoned to confront a mystic-powered maniac named Bill Jensen. Jensen is demanding to see Commissioner Bruce Wayne, claiming that Wayne had framed him and sent him to prison. He zaps the JSA, and this portion of the story comes to an end. Another Aparo JSA cover adorns issue #462, although inside, as part of the expansion of the remaining pages of All-Star #75, a Staton/Giordano cover originally intended for the comic is included. A photocopy of its original art also shows it was at one time earmarked to be the cover of this Adventure issue. Various other Staton Justice Society images from the period surfaced around that time and in the intervening years. Adventure #461 has a Staton/Giordano group shot as its back cover, while DC’s in-house fanzine Amazing World of DC Comics #16 has as its centerspread a Staton/ Layton illustration [for an in-depth look at AWODCC, see BI #100—ed.]. Fantagraphics’ fanzine Amazing Heroes #3 (Aug. 1981) features a Staton cover, while various venues, including ASC, have showcased a batch of shots of individual group members that some theorize may have been done for the DC Super-Stars Society, a DC-run fan club that was derailed by the DC Implosion. Unfortunately, other than recalling the Amazing Heroes cover being a commission drawing, Joe has no idea what any of these illustrations were originally done for. Story-wise in #462, the Batman comes out of retirement to confront Jensen. During their battle, part of the Dark Knight’s mask is burned away, revealing his true identity to Jensen. Jensen’s rage intensifies into “a fire not seen on this earth since creation,” consuming both men in a flaming flash before the shocked eyes of the Huntress. The Earth-Two Batman was dead. At the funeral of Bruce Wayne, another legacy thread appears as Dick Grayson vows to take over as Batman. Incredulously, when Huntress tells him he can’t, Dick asks her if she intends to! Retreating to their headquarters, the Society members ask themselves the question, Where did a previously normal man like Jensen get the power to battle the JSA and kill Batman? That would be the plot of the next issue, as the team tracks down a magician by the name of Fredric Vaux, who is attempting to kill the JSA to gain power from the “Nether Gods.” The Society is triumphant and Vaux pays the price. In name and M.O., Vaux seems to be the Earth-Two version of JLA villain Felix Faust, but Paul Levitz revealed in that ASC that he was actually named after Central Park designers Fredrick Law Olmstead and Calvert Vaux. The next Adventure features an eight-page Wildcat solo tale at the end of which the hard-knuckled hero leaves the team to train youngsters in fighting technique. (See, the legacy theme can encompass more than just new costumed characters.) The tale is one of Levitz’s favorites, but since the issue presented a full-length Deadman story that was intended for Showcase, Paul wrote the shorter tale, believing, “I was editing most of the title, and juggling the page counts.” Also of note is the fact that beginning with the issue’s cover, the JSA is banished from any prominent spot there, only receiving headshots or captions for the remainder of their residence. Adventure #465’s (Sept.–Oct. 1979) tale features the Justice Society racing against time to find a capsule of poison, and includes a final page depicting Mr. Terrific arriving to accompany his teammates on their regular visit to see the Justice League. The tale would end in tragedy in Justice League #171 (Oct. 1979), a story that would leave a plot thread that was not tied up until many years later.

THE LAST CASE OF THE JUSTICE SOCIETY

The downturn in interest in superheroes after World War II spelled the end of almost all costumed vigilantes in comics. The Justice Society held on longer than most, but even they succumbed by 1951. By the time they were revived, the fan community had discovered the concept of continuity. Surely some of them wondered why the team disappeared for a while, but the actual idea to tell this tale is attributed to future Marvel editor/writer Mark Gruenwald in All-Star #74’s letters column, a fact Paul Levitz tells BI he “didn’t recall until you reminded me, but it made me smile. I think it was coincidence that it was the last story in the run.” Marvel had come up with explanations for the absence of their Golden Age heroes early in the Marvel Age, but the Justice Society had to wait until this tale, ominously titled “The Defeat of the Justice Society!” Given the track record of superhero comics, it would be easy to think that some incredibly powerful villain or conflict must have been responsible for those missing years. But Paul Levitz had another idea. (Of course, a cosmic conflict was responsible when the JSA was again consigned to limbo in 1986, but that’s another story.) Resurrecting the ghosts of McCarthyism and the HUAC, the Society members do not disappear so much as they are forced into retirement. After a man tries to do away with them (by first pretending to give them a satellite headquarters years before, but technically years after, the JLA), our heroes are called before a congressional hearing. It seems their assailant was a high-placed foreign agent, and the government wants to know their connection to him and clear up some other inconsistencies in their past. They believe the best way to do this is to have the JSA reveal their true identities and go from there. To say the heroes disagree would be putting it mildly. Instead they decide to retire, thus explaining their 12-year absence from the printed

page. It could almost be considered the final, ultimate act of succession in the series as the JSA effectively step aside and make way for the Silver Age. It is appropriate that the story appeared when it did, as Adventure #466 (Nov.–Dec. 1979) marked the end of this series of Justice Society exploits and was a fitting sendoff. There have been many revivals of the team since, with another apparently on the horizon as of this writing. However, to those of us for whom this run was our entry into Society, the revived All-Star Comics will always exist in a special place. A world of its own, if you will. The author would like to thank Gerry Conway, Paul Levitz, and Joe Staton for their assistance in preparing this piece.

The Death of Batman (left) The shocking Aparo cover to Adventure #462 did not lie! (right) Inside, the Earth-Two Masked Manhunter met his demise. TM & © DC Comics.

Some people say BRIAN MARTIN lives in another world as well, but he prefers to think of comics as just a place he can escape to whenever he desires.

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[Editor’s note: UnKnown Marvel is a new, rotating department, written by Robert Menzies and examining rarities from Marvel’s UK division of the Bronze Age. UnKnown Marvel will return in BI #110.] They say that you should never meet your heroes, but perhaps the reverse is truer: maybe heroes should never meet their fans! It really wasn’t my intention to make Bob Layton squirm at his early artistic efforts. If that wasn’t enough, I also made him feel the weight of his years, not only through the art but by presenting him with a cake on his 63rd birthday. Bob, characteristically, coped with my terrible welcome to Scotland with his usual good humor. The MCM Scotland 2016 con, over the weekend September 24–25, 2016, was the fourth con where I had encountered Bob but his first trip to my homeland. Bob also graciously accepted my invitation to a meal—at his request, at a vegetarian restaurant—with some members of the Scottish comic scene after our interview. I spent most of the Glasgow con in Bob’s company and he clearly appreciates his fans and consciously embraces the idea that comics creators have a debt to repay. He is especially encouraging and positive with young fans—for instance, one of his “rules” is not to charge young fans for sketches. On the Friday prior to the con I arranged for him to meet Ben Wright, a young fan and the son of a work colleague, and when Ben was too ill to appear, he suggested we film a video message and send it to Ben. It was a spontaneous and genuine gesture that was much appreciated. On Sunday, a slightly seedy Ben met Bob and commented that Bob made him feel “amazing.” The one problem that weekend was caused by British Airways, which lost Bob’s portfolio on Friday on his way from Florida. All his commissions, sketches, and prints worth many thousands of dollars were in the portfolio, which appeared to be hiding somewhere in London’s Gatwick Airport. BA couldn’t locate it on Friday night… …or Saturday, which meant that Bob didn’t make a bean with sketches or prints and had to repeatedly apologize to fans. By Sunday morning Bob was understandably and inevitably becoming less forgiving and posted the following message on Twitter: “Don’t understand how British Airways totally lost my bag in post 9/11 era. I urge FAA Safety Brief and DHSgov to investigate their procedures!” At the mention of the Federal Aviation Authority and the Department of Homeland Security, BA managed to find the bag within the next half hour. Coincidence? Bob didn’t think so! Despite the recovery, the portfolio did not arrive until 9 p.m. that night, so Sunday was also a washout. Hopefully, Bob will return and Scottish fans— including Ben Wright—will be able to get a sketch from him. This interview took place in City Centre Comics, Glasgow, on Friday, September 23, 2016. The owner, Chris O’Brien, and I had covered the walls with comics with Layton covers. Bob, unsurprisingly, loved it. – Robert Menzies

In an Alternate Reality… Layton’s very first published Marvel art, part 1: The Avengers and the Savage Sword of Conan #135 (Apr. 17, 1976). Marshall Rogers pencils, Layton inks, on a new title page for a story reprinted from The Avengers #85 (Feb. 1971). TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

14 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

by R o b e r t

Menzies

Hanging Around Layton’s very first published Marvel art, part 2: Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #166 (Apr. 17, 1976). Michael Nasser pencils, Layton inks. Bob and Mike also worked together on backup stories in Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #222 (Dec. 1976) and 233 (Nov. 1977). TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

ROBERT MENZIES: The purpose of this interview is to look at your first published work for Marvel, Bob, a small pool of art that even the hardcore British fans were unaware of until Jason Schachter began his research. BOB LAYTON: [looking at comics on the table] Are these UK editions? Oh, my God! MENZIES: I don’t think you’ve seen these comics in 40 years. LAYTON: I’m so glad we’re on audio only, so you can’t see my expression now! MENZIES: [ironic tone] Unfortunately, this art will feature in the article. LAYTON: That’s okay. I can deal with it. In my early days at Marvel, that’s how many of us got little pieces of work here and there and worked out our drawing problems, by doing the re-done splash pages for the UK comics. MENZIES: So you were aware of the British department? LAYTON: Oh, yeah. A lot of us… me, Marshall Rogers, Joe Rubinstein—you can go down a list of guys—all started by doing those. The earliest pencil work I ever got was doing those UK things because they didn’t care, I guess, what you guys got! [laughs] So you just got whatever crap young artist was there to redo the splash page alongside the work of giants. MENZIES: Can you walk me through your early career so we can contextualize the British art? You and Roger Stern worked on the Charlton Bullseye fan magazine and that led you to be Wally Wood’s assistant. How does the British work fit into that? LAYTON: I started my first work at Charlton because Woody lived down years later at a con and apologized to the street in Derby, Connecticut [home of him in person. [laughs] Charlton Comics—ed.]. I was inking books MENZIES: Even if you concede that the issue at Charlton—badly—and at the same looks bad, which I don’t, I was under time I was working as Woody’s assistant, the impression that the Crusty Bunkers bob layton so my first published work was with [Continuity’s tag-team of deadline-busting Charlton. [Editor’s note: See BACK ISSUE inkers—ed.] did a lot of that issue… #100 for more about Charlton Bullseye.] Chris James. LAYTON: But they weren’t the MENZIES: How long were you Wood’s assistant? Crusty Bunkers, they were the Artificial Crusty Bunkers. LAYTON: About nine months. Then Woody retired. They were all the ones who weren’t good enough At that point Dick Giordano took me under his wing and to become Crusty Bunkers… yet. It was Bob McLeod, I went to work for him at Continuity Associates. Joe Rubinstein, myself, Bob Wiacek, all of those guys. MENZIES: Do you remember when it was you were MENZIES: But you all had successful careers. Wood’s assistant? LAYTON: Yeah, but at the time we were just snotty-nosed LAYTON: ’75, ’76. [pauses] I’m so damn old! kids who were up there at Continuity and weren’t good MENZIES: Iron Man #91 is the first US comic you inked. enough for primetime, as they say. We were still learning It’s dated October 1976. All your British art predates that, our craft. That didn’t stop me from doing that [asking Romita for the inking job on Iron Man #91], and it with perhaps one exception. LAYTON: I’ve told that story about the very first Iron actually turned out to be one of the smartest things I Man a million times in a million different interviews. ever did because back then they appreciated someone So just go find any other interview I did and find the who would get something in on time. They were willing bit where I talk about my very first job at Marvel. to sacrifice a great deal of quality for punctuality. [laughs] [Interviewer’s note: Bob overheard John Romita, Sr. Three days, we did that book. trying to find an inker and boldly said he could do it MENZIES: I’d like to look at your forgotten art. I have before the impending deadline.] I found George Tuska to pause here to make clear that we have Jason Schachter

MTIO Revisited Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #172 (May 29, 1976). Layton inks. Faithfully redrawn from the page 1 splash of Marvel Two-in-One #11 (Sept. 1975). TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 15

Bob and Ol’ Shellhead (top) A photo taken during the interview with Bob and the Marvel character he’s most identified with. Photo by Chris James. (bottom) Bob Layton inks over Jeff Aclin pencils, from Planet of the Apes #85 (June 5, 1976): a reinterpretation of the final panel (panel 4) from page 11 of Captain Marvel #28 (Sept. 1973). The dialogue is taken from panels 3 and 4 of the same page. TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

to thank for his tireless efforts in identifying the artists on hundreds of pages of British art. If it weren’t for Jason, fans wouldn’t know anything about your art and the art of many other artists. This art was very seldom signed and often incorrectly accredited. You actually had two “first” pieces of published Marvel art, Bob, as two came out the same day: Saturday, April 10, 1976. I think they were drawn no later than mid- or late February 1976. This artwork—your very first published Avengers art—appeared inside The Avengers and the Savage Sword of Conan weekly #135 (cover dated “week ending April 17, 1976”), a partial reprint of The Avengers #85 (Feb. 1971). LAYTON: This comic has Avengers and Savage Sword of Conan! They really match! Obviously, an immediate connection is drawn to mind! MENZIES: It was a controversial combination and practically every single letters page commented on it. LAYTON: [looks at his splash] Oh – my – God! That is Marshall Rogers and me. This sticks out like a sore thumb next to that beautiful John Buscema art. [laughs] It’s like John Buscema was hit in the head with a sledgehammer. This is what it would look like. [laughs] MENZIES: Did it bother you and other artists that your art was being credited as someone else’s? LAYTON: Oh, we never saw them! You don’t understand. We never saw the printed versions. We had no idea what they were being used for. MENZIES: I was told by a staffer of that period that British comics were on a rack in the British department’s New York office. LAYTON: Maybe I was lacking curiosity, or maybe I just didn’t want to see them. MENZIES: So, you’ve never seen this comic? LAYTON: No, I never have. MENZIES: As you know, British comics were not like American comics. LAYTON: They were serialized. MENZIES: So we would have two, three, four, five, maybe even as many as six strips in one comic. This Avengers comic reprints pages 11–20 of The Avengers #85, for instance. Normally these splashes were link pages, bridging the gap between one week’s episode and another, but this operates more like a cover and refers to what happens a few pages later. LAYTON: I know why they used them. They were serialized and they had to use new splash pages. Fortunately, young artists got the chance to draw stuff and most of us had never seen our work in print, so it was kind of an on-the-job-training kind of thing. MENZIES: Jim Starlin told me that he was unhappy doing splashes. He wanted to tell stories. LAYTON: Look, we all had to live in New York City, one of the most expensive cities in the world. We took any work that we could get, okay? There was a thing called “rent,” you know, that we had to pay. You couldn’t afford to say no to anything. It was a paycheck. [looks at comic] Wow. It’s ghastly. MENZIES: I quite like it. I see some Neal Adams in the Vision. LAYTON: No, no, you’re way too kind to me, or way too insulting to Neal Adams. I don’t know which one. It’s pretty amateurish. MENZIES: Maybe you’ll feel better about this one, your first published Spider-Man image. You inked a redrawn John Romita, Jim Mooney, and Tony Mortellaro splash from Amazing Spider-Man #117 (Feb. 1973). It appeared in Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #166 (Apr. 17, 1976). LAYTON: I actually do remember this one! I think that was Mike Nasser and me. MENZIES: Both of these pieces were in comics that came out the same day. LAYTON: I don’t remember the original art, but I can tell from the face it was Mike Nasser. He was another guy at Continuity at the time. All of us were just scraping for whatever work we could get. MENZIES: Nasser left all his artwork when he went off to California about 1978, so he doesn’t have any of the original art. Some artists who worked for the British department do. LAYTON: I don’t [have any art] either. What happened with me was that I had an unscrupulous art agent at the time and apparently he decided to run off—he skipped town and sold all my art to somebody on the sly. MENZIES: When you were visiting the Marvel offices, do you remember whom you would see?

16 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

LAYTON: Dave Cockrum was there. He was the cover editor. John Verpoorten ran production. Nelson [Yomtov] was his second-in-command there. Paty [Greer/Cockrum] was there. MENZIES: She’s a hoot. LAYTON: Yes, she is a hoot. I knew Dave from the fanzine days. We went way back, from when he got out of the Navy, you know. So, some people I knew from my fanzine days, before I got up there. I think in those days Archie Goodwin was the editor-in-chief. Boy, that’s going back… There was a quick turnover [of Marvel editors-in-chief] because nobody wanted the job because it was thankless. What people don’t understand, too, is that Marvel was suffering a decline, and while I have mixed feelings about Jim Shooter he came in with some innovative things that revitalized Marvel. And there was Star Wars. Star Wars saved Marvel. When the book came out, the sales were phenomenal. Marvel had been floundering for a few years and Howard Chaykin saved Marvel, basically, him and Roy Thomas. MENZIES: It was the same here. Star Wars Weekly vastly outsold other weeklies. LAYTON: There was no other merchandise. They wanted Star Wars and there was only the Marvel comic! MENZIES: I want to now show you your third piece of unique British art, a faithful recreation of a splash from Marvel Two-in-One #11 (Sept. 1975) by Bob Brown and Klaus Janson. This appeared in Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #172 (May 29, 1976), and I guesstimate this was drawn around mid or even late March. LAYTON: Yeeeeeeaaahh, well, it’s faithfully bad. MENZIES: I’ve always liked it. I’m not an artist, so can you explain to me why it’s “bad”? LAYTON: Well, because it’s flat and one-dimensional. There’s no sense of line weight or value to it. It’s like a kid tracing over a drawing. [laughs] That’s the best way to describe it. I’m looking at it with my mature eyes now, with 40 years or so behind me. I don’t know who penciled that. MENZIES: Despite asking many artists, Jason hasn’t been able to ID the penciler. It’s such a close copy of the original page. LAYTON: Yeah, it really is. I would venture, off the top of my head, that it was maybe Ed Hannigan. He was very prolific in those days. He would be my first guess, but it’s hard to say. MENZIES: These stories that you’re drawing splashes for, had you read them all when they came out? LAYTON: No. I was just inking so someone had already done the pencils, someone had already done the referencing. These had to be done quickly and overnight. It was just

another splash page. I’m sorry, but I really don’t think they gave you guys the dedication that they gave their regular comics. I mean, why would they be putting schmucks like us on them? Why not get the legitimate artists? John Buscema was still there! MENZIES: My generation loves these comics and looks back on them as an essential part of our childhood. You have to understand that US editions were hard to find in the UK back in the 1970s. Without these reprint comics I wouldn’t be a fan and we wouldn’t be chatting now. LAYTON: I actually love getting some of the French and UK editions because they are in black-and-white. I have no copies of the original art so I can actually scan that stuff, especially if someone asks me to do a recreation. MENZIES: I had never thought of that use for them before. LAYTON: Are you going to embarrass me again? MENZIES: Not intentionally! Here’s artwork number four, which I think you inked around late March or early April of 1976. Planet of the Apes #85 (June 5, 1976) reprinted some pages from Jim Starlin’s classic Captain Marvel tales. LAYTON: So they got Captain Marvel in with Planet of the Apes? That’s another great matchup, huh? [laughs] Monkeys. Space opera. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. MENZIES: The odd line-ups did expose fans to characters they might have otherwise missed. Planet of the Apes also had Don McGregor’s Jungle Action run [starring Black Panther], which I believe is one of the greatest comic runs of all time. I first saw my favorite comics, Jim Starlin’s original Warlock tales, in my little brother’s copies of Star Wars Weekly. So I find it easy to defend these mixed casts. Moving on, this art is a reinterpretation of the final panel (panel 4) from page 11 of Captain Marvel #28 (Sept. 1973) by Jim Starlin (pencils) and Dan Green (inks). The dialogue—by Mike Friedrich from a Jim Starlin plot—is taken from panels 3 and 4 of the same page. You inked the new splash penciled by Jeff Aclin. Do you remember him? LAYTON: Vaguely. MENZIES: He’s a talented artist and just the nicest guy you could ever meet. He disappeared from comics around 1981 and he took a bit of tracking to find. Jeff still has the original art. LAYTON: I don’t know if I ever met him. I’d have to go in the Wayback Machine for that. [Interviewer’s note: I spoke with Aclin after the interview and he doesn’t think they ever met, either.] Is he sure that’s me? Because a lot of it doesn’t look like me. MENZIES: The art is signed. It has your signature. LAYTON: Really? I’m looking at some of the feathering on this. It’s not my usual thing.

Bob Goes Solo Layton’s very first published full art, a centerspread poster from Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #191 (Oct. 6, 1976). The Maximus shown here is the Neal Adams version that first appeared in Amazing Adventures #5 (Mar. 1971) and is best remembered from the cover of Avengers #95. TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 17

MENZIES: That’s the only piece of the five where we have the original art to confirm the artists. LAYTON: Then again, I look at the metal and there’s little Bob Layton metal thingies in there, so you’re probably right. Who am I to argue with Jeff? MENZIES: That splash is a reimagining of this panel from Captain Marvel #28. LAYTON: Jim did it way better. I loved that stuff Starlin was doing. It was very exciting. He was from the generation just before me. There was a whole bunch of guys who came out of Detroit. Him and Al Milgrom, Keith Pollard, Rich Buckler, Arvell Jones. They were like a year, two years, ahead of us in terms of waves of creators. MENZIES: Did you ever bump into them? LAYTON: Oh, yeah. We all knew each other. It was inevitable. You’ve got to remember Marvel poker games! Before that generation came in, everyone looked like IBMers. They all had short white-sleeved dress shirts and they always wore a jacket when they came in to work. There was a huge age gap, and that was part of the problem. When all of us “punks” came in, the old school really resented a lot of us. We were just a rowdy bunch of whatever. I remember one day I came up to Marvel and there was Jim Owsley, all right, and he’s got one of those 17-inch Angela Davis afros, right, and he’s in shorts and roller-skates going down the hallway with a marker pen. And he’s got his boom box with him and he’s drawing on the walls while he’s roller-skating down the hallway! And I said, “This is the place I wanna work!” He wasn’t high, but my generation that came in, we were really tasked with redefining Marvel for another generation. MENZIES: Last one, your first full art for Marvel. This is a poster that appeared in Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #191 (Oct. 6, 1976). Triton, Black Bolt, and Medusa are wearing their classic outfits but the costume Maximus is wearing is informative. It is clearly the costume created by Neal Adams and only worn by Black Bolt’s brother in Amazing Adventures #5 and 6 (Mar. and May 1971) and Avengers #95 (Jan. 1972). [Interviewer’s note: In British reprint time, that is The Titans #5 and 6 (Nov. 22 and 29, 1975) and The Mighty World of Marvel #206–208 (Sept. 8–22, 1976).] LAYTON: Okay, I’m pretty sure this is actual size. [Interviewer’s note: Close, but not quite. Art was reduced to 93% of the original art.] I can tell it was me. Look at the Zip-A-Tone. I was apesh*t about that. I learned it from Wally Wood. This was my first full art for Marvel. I was trying so hard to ink like other Marvel people. Dick Giordano always had a great expression. He’d say, “You become good at your craft the day you stop trying to be someone else.” ’Cause we all start out trying to be someone else. And it’s really true. Look at Bill Sienkiewicz, as an example. He started out drawing like Neal Adams. Look at him now! He’s like one of the most brilliant artists that ever worked in this business. But he got good the day he quit trying to be Neal. I always wanted to be Dick Giordano or Joe Sinnott, because to me, that was Marvel inking. I’m trying so desperately to make my lines look like theirs, you know, and there’s a point, one day, when I said, “To hell with it! I know what to do,” and you just kinda make it your own at that point. This was back when I was still struggling to be somebody else. [examining the art] I remember all that stuff because it was really cool because I was such an Avengers fan. Neal’s Avengers was awesome. MENZIES: You’ve obviously either been looking at Neal Adams art or influenced by it because the Maximus depicted there, as I said,

Dinner Party Bob, first right, with a contingent of the Scottish comic scene. Left to right: Chris O’Brien, owner of City Centre Comics; James Lundy, owner of Edinburgh Comic Con; Mark Brogan, fan; John McShane, one of the main figures in the Scottish comic world for decades; and the author, Robert Menzies, second right. Chris James.

is a short-lived Neal Adams design. It only appeared in three issues. LAYTON: Again, Robert, you’re giving me way too much credit for putting conscious thought into this. [laughs] I wish I had put that much actual thought into it. It was just, “Oh, my God, I get to draw something and I get the money!” It was way fun. I also remember that it went into the ether after that because, like I said, I never saw the published comics. But the fact that I got to draw something [was great]. You can tell it’s me, it’s just really bad me. Here’s how you can tell. Look at Medusa’s hair. I went to work for Dick Giordano and one of Dick’s fortes was doing hair. You could always tell his Wonder Woman, she had great flowing hair. Something Dick was just amazing at. So eventually, I learned that technique from him. That looks like she’s wearing a giant cotton candy on top of her head. MENZIES: So, what would you do differently now? LAYTON: Well, I would draw it like hair! [laughs] MENZIES: I walked into that one! LAYTON: I was like, 19 years old at the time. [Interviewer’s note: Bob was actually 22.] I was fortunate to be doing anything. The backgrounds are great. See the Wally Wood influence? He gave me a whole bunch of his little photographic dots and so I used them whenever I could. Until I ran out of them. MENZIES: Looking at the publication date and how long it took to bring out a comic, maybe eight to ten weeks, this seems to be roughly the same time as Iron Man #91. The others are all months earlier. LAYTON: That’s when, ’76? So that’s 40 years ago… you may have to carry me to the restaurant! [laughs] Well, that’s the story of my British art. I’m sorry there’s nothing more glamorous about it. I can pretty much assure you that all my samples back then were equally lame. But why did Wally Wood take me on? Why did Dick take me on? I think they saw something there, they saw the germ of something. Hopefully with time this guy will be able to draw people like human beings. They were right, obviously, but I’m just saying thank goodness that they had the wherewithal to see that I might develop into a viable commercial talent. A massive thank-you goes out to Bob Layton, Chris O’Brien of City Centre Comics, and photographer Chris James. Also thanks to Mark Brogan, James Lundy, John McShane, and the Wright family—Brian, Audrey, and Ben. This interview wouldn’t have happened without the tireless investigative work of Jason Schachter. Thank you, Jason. ROBERT MENZIES saw one of Bob Layton’s first published Marvel artworks—the Spidey splash—the day it came out, although he didn’t know it for 40 years.

18 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

by D e w e y

Cassell

When it comes to athletes, musicians, and actors, there are some good second- and third-tier ones that get overshadowed by the stars in their field. You never hear much about them and they often fade into obscurity without ever receiving their due, in spite of whatever strengths they bring to their endeavors. Comic-book characters are no different. The Golden Age of Comics brought us Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman, household names even today, but it also brought us characters you probably never heard of, like the Gay Desperado and Zanzibar the Magician. However, sometimes comic-book characters get a second chance. In May 1975, Marvel Comics launched The Invaders, the brainchild of editor and writer Roy Thomas, its first issue cover-dated August 1975. The Invaders featured the heroic exploits of the Golden Age stars of Marvel (then called Timely)—Captain America and Bucky, Human Torch and Toro, and Sub-Mariner—set against the backdrop of the Second World War. Early reaction to The Invaders was positive, so Thomas looked for a way to expand on the idea. Thus was born the Liberty Legion. The first Liberty Legion story weaved its way through The Invaders issue #5 and 6 and Marvel Premiere issues #29–30. Issue #5 (Mar. 1976) of The Invaders depicted Captain America, Human Torch, Toro, and Sub-Mariner captured and hypnotized by the villainous Red Skull. The Skull leaves Bucky behind because the lad does not possess any special powers, saying what readers have probably long thought themselves: “You were merely a mascot—a camp-follower—and I’ve no use for you.” The [former] Invaders wreak havoc under the Skull’s control. So Bucky recruits a new team to do battle with his old friends, using a radio program to plead with the other “heroes of America” to answer the call. Roy Thomas explains the origins of the new team’s name: “Back when I was about 12 or so, the very early ’50s, I made up a comic. It was about 60 or 70 pages that I wrote and drew. It was very crude stuff, but it told a story called the Liberty Legion. It was mostly made-up characters, although I think I had a character who looked just like the old Atom and I called him Tornado, and I think Green Lantern was in it. I don’t know why I used him. Then, two or three years later, I had this idea about a crossover comic book between DC and what I always thought of as Marvel or Atlas, and two or three other companies. This would have been about 1955. By that time, the Human Torch and Captain America had been discontinued. So I made up this group that was like the surviving heroes of comics. It was Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman from DC, Sub-Mariner, Plastic Man, and Blackhawk (without his other Blackhawk members), and the Blue Beetle, who was on his last legs at Charlton after having been revived, as well as the character Crimebuster. Sluggo from the Little Wise Guys and Daredevil comics was sort of their mascot. I did this whole comic, wrote it all out and drew it and even colored some of it, and it was called the Liberty Legion. Then about ’63

Homefront Heroes Bucky faces front on the cover to the first of two Marvel Premiere appearances for the Liberty Legion. MP #29 (Apr. 1976) cover by Jack Kirby and Frank Giacoia. TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 19

WHO ARE THE LIBERTY LEGION? The following background and origins of the members of the Liberty Legion are based on “FBI files” and footnotes by Roy Thomas from Marvel Premiere #29 and 30. • The Patriot Real Name: Jeff Mace First Appearance: The Human Torch #4 (Spring 1941) Origin and Abilities: Excellent athlete inspired by Captain America, with similar skills, but without the shield or super-soldier serum • The Whizzer Real Name: Robert Frank First Appearance: USA Comics #1 (Aug. 1941) Origin and Abilities: Super-speed endowed by a transfusion of mongoose blood after being bitten by a cobra

• Miss America Real Name: Madeline Joyce First Appearance: Marvel Mystery Comics #49 (Nov. 1943) Origin and Abilities: Strength and flight resulting from an experimental device struck by lightning • Red Raven Real Name: Unknown First Appearance: Red Raven Comics #1 (Aug. 1940) Origin and Abilities: Flight using artificial wings given to him by the bird people of Sky-land • The Thin Man Real Name: Bruce Dickson First Appearance: Mystic Comics #4 (Aug. 1940) Origin and Abilities: Extreme flexibility granted him by the lost civilization of Kalahia

• The Blue Diamond Real Name: Elton Morrow First Appearance: Daring Mystery Comics #7 (Apr. 1941) Origin and Abilities: Bulletproof skin and super-strength imbued from an explosion shattering an azure diamond • Jack Frost Real Name: Jack Frost First Appearance: USA Comics #1 (Aug. 1941) Origin and Abilities: Can create ice and objects made from it. Origin unknown, though some indication he may be an alien. Thomas tells BI, “His background was vague in the original stories, so I wanted to keep it vague.”

or so, Howard Keltner and two others who were called the Texas Trio were doing a lot of the amateur comics at the time, including one of the most popular, Star-Studded Comics. One issue of it was devoted to a kind of Justice Society adventure that was called the Liberty Legion. I remember it bugged me when I saw that, because I had already done two Liberty Legions by that time. So when I wanted to make up a group to be the spinoff of The Invaders, I thought about Liberty Legion. I thought it might look to these guys, who had done their Liberty Legion about 12 or 13 years earlier, as if I was copying their name, even if it wasn’t trademarked and nobody had done anything with it for years. But then I got to thinking, ‘Well, hell, I did my version—the first one—ten or more years before they did theirs,’ so I just went ahead and used it. So between me and the Texas Trio, there have been at least four groups named the Liberty Legion, and finally one of them made it into professional comics.” The roster of Marvel Comics’ Liberty Legion is a hodgepodge of second- and third-tier characters from the Golden Age, including the Patriot, Miss America, Red Raven, Whizzer, the Thin Man, Blue Diamond, and Jack Frost (see sidebar for details). Asked if he was always a fan of the early Marvel heroes, Thomas replies, “I wasn’t, really. I was really a fan of the early DC superheroes. With Timely, there weren’t many of them left by the time I started reading comics in 1945 and ’46, except for Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and Captain America. It was only in the 1960s when I discovered, through comics fandom, a few of the old comic books that I began to become aware that there had been this humongous number of Marvel characters. I thought most of them were nothing much, but a couple of them had possibilities. The Thin Man, for example, was interesting. Not quite just an imitation of Plastic Man, he was kind of a weird character in his own right, and he had this funny Dashiell Hammett name and turned into this superhero. And there were two or three others. I decided to see what I could do with them starting with bringing back the Red Raven as a villain in X-Men. So, when I decided I was going to try to expand The Invaders and see if I could get yet another group out of those old heroes, there were plenty of characters to choose from, but none of them were characters I had been aware of until I was in my 20s.” The exception was Bucky, who organized the Liberty Legion, but returned to the Invaders once they were freed from the Red Skull’s hypnotic control. Some of the characters chosen for the Liberty Legion were better known than others, but notoriety was not really a consideration in choosing the members of the Legion, as Thomas

Roy’s Roots (top) Miss America’s 1944 Marvel issue. Cover by Ken Bald. (bottom left) Whizzer and Miss America and their more famous teammates on the cover of All Winners Comics #19 (Fall 1946). Cover artist unknown. (bottom right) Thomas resurrected Red Raven as an X-Men villain in the Silver Age. Cover to X-Men #44 (May 1968) by Don Heck. TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

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explains. “I was just trying to get a balance of characters. To some extent, I suppose, my prototype was the Justice Society. I ended up with seven members, not counting Bucky, but I didn’t have a one-for-one relationship [with the Justice Society] in mind. I was just trying to get a nice mix of characters. For example, I thought there should be one good Captain America type, so that became the Patriot, who was the most popular of the Captain America types in the old Timely comics, after Cap himself. Red Raven was the Hawkman type. I felt I should also have a Sub-Mariner type and, in a way, Jack Frost kind of fit that bill. Of course, the Whizzer was the Flash type character. He and Miss America were two of the more popular characters among the also-rans back in the ’40s. Miss America sort of had her own comic for about one issue. She and the Whizzer had also both been members of the All-Winner’s Squad. To some extent, the All-Winner’s Squad had been a precursor of the Invaders, so I wanted to have those two characters be a part of the Liberty Legion. And then I played around a little bit with the Blue Diamond. I made him bigger and stronger. In the original comics, he’s just a guy about the same size as everybody else, and I bulked him up to make him a little more unique for that series.” Other characters received costume changes, particularly the Thin Man, whose original red and blue costume was deemed too much like other members of the Legion. Not everyone made the new team. In Marvel Premiere #29 (Apr. 1976), Bucky also mentions the Challenger, the Fin, and the Thunderer. The omission of these other Golden Age characters wasn’t for lack of merit, though, as Thomas notes, “I must have considered the Fin because it’s a Sub-Mariner kind of character, also created by Bill Everett. I probably would have brought the Fin in at some stage. Another character, the Challenger, was very interesting. Phil Seuling pointed him out to me back in the middle ’60s when we first met. Phil noted that the Challenger was a really great character that nobody ever did much with because his motif was that he would challenge a villain to fight him with a weapon of the villain’s choice, and he would beat him. That might be a limited gimmick, but it was an interesting gimmick and it made him a unique kind of character. However, it didn’t necessarily lend itself very well to being in a group, because he wouldn’t have the scope to do his main shtick in a group the way he would in a solo story, and that’s probably why I didn’t put him in there.” The explanation given in the story for why these other characters did not join the Legion is that they apparently did not hear—or chose not to answer—Bucky’s call, but Thomas admits, “That was just my excuse for why I didn’t use them. I did the same thing with All-Star Squadron. ‘Some people just didn’t show up.’ It was intended as a tease for the readers to make them think that at any time some favorite of theirs might show up, or they could ask for a particular character and maybe that would inspire me.” Don Heck drew the Liberty Legion stories in Marvel Premiere and Jack Kirby did the covers, giving the book a nostalgic feel. The use of Kirby was no accident, as Thomas recalls, “I did, starting with The Invaders, go after Kirby as the cover artist. As soon as he became available, I started having Jack do all the covers. I thought, ‘How could I go wrong?,’ and I’m really happy with those covers.” Coupled with Thomas’ writing, it was a truly compelling package. As for the new team, they had an immediate and urgent mission, but that didn’t make these seven people who had just met into best buddies. There were occasional disagreements and infighting, as we had come to expect from Marvel team books since the early days of the Fantastic Four. Thomas’ intent was “to differentiate them by having the Invaders spend more of their time in Europe and the Liberty Legion become the home-front heroes.”

For some characters, Marvel Premiere served as a launching point for their own book. Not so with the Liberty Legion. According to Thomas, it wasn’t for lack of trying, “For a little while we had a Liberty Legion book scheduled as a full title. Don Heck had drawn the first Liberty Legion story that I had worked out. I think it was just the fact that The Invaders, after the first seven or eight issues, began to lose a little steam. Therefore, if the title that had been the reason for the Liberty Legion’s being was sinking a little bit, then it was maybe time to put it on hold. Had The Invaders picked up [sales] at some later stage, we might still have done it. But as it was, The Invaders lasted only a relatively few years. It wasn’t a failure as a title, but still not a huge success, either.” After issue #6 (May 1976) of The Invaders, the Legion made guest appearances with the Thing in Marvel Two-in-One Annual #1 (1976) and Marvel Two-in-One #20 (Oct. 1976). Two years later, Thomas brought the Legion back to The Invaders beginning with issue #35 (Dec. 1978), which featured artwork from the unpublished first issue of the Liberty Legion solo title, as did issue #38. Issue #36 debuted a new villain, the Iron Cross, for which Thomas drew from his past experience. “That story involved a takeoff on Iron Man—the Iron Cross character—and I had some fun with that. I lived

Patriotic Pugilists The Legion mixes it up with the Invaders on the Jack Kirby/ Joe Sinnott cover of Invaders #6 (May 1976). TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 21

Give Me Liberty! (top left) LL’s second Marvel Premiere spotlight, #30. Cover by Kirby and Giacoia. (bottom) A return appearance, in Invaders #35 (Dec. 1978) Cover by Alan Kupperberg and Sinnott.

Give Me Liberty! (top middle) They’re back, now with the Thing, in 1976’s MTIO Annual #1. Cover by Kirby and Sinnott. (top right) Take a closer look at the MTIO #20 Kirby/ Giacoia cover art in the Rough Stuff column following. TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

at that time on East 86th Street between 1st and 2nd Avenue, and the next block up, the area was called Yorkville. It was really the old Germanic area of New York and they had a lot of German restaurants with names like the Lorelei, which was a bar, and the Bavarian Inn, and one or two others that I would frequent. When I did that Liberty Legion story, I took the walk-down bar on the north side of 86th Street called the Lorelei, and I changed that into the Rhinemaiden, which is just another name for the same creature in German folklore. So I was using my memories of living in Yorkville for that particular story.” Members of the Liberty Legion, particularly the Whizzer and Miss America, continued to appear alongside the Invaders through the end of the title at issue #41. They also appeared in the 1993 miniseries The Invaders, written by Thomas and penciled by Dave Hoover. In recent years, the Liberty Legion stories have been included in a couple of reprint books by Marvel, and some individual characters from the Legion have made solo appearances in other venues, most notably the Patriot. Season Four of the television series Marvel Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. introduced the character Jeff Mace, who took the place of Phil Coulson as head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and was later revealed to be the Patriot, sporting a costume loosely based on the comic book. In the concluding story arc of the season, the Patriot sacrifices himself to save his S.H.I.E.L.D. teammates and others held captive by HYDRA. The Liberty Legion stories were entertaining to read, perhaps because the characters were less well known, grounded in Marvel history but not burdened by it. However, as the saying goes, “Timing is everything.” Thomas explains, “If the Fantastic Four or Invaders were good enough to be a series, well, Liberty Legion was, too. It maybe wasn’t quite as good an idea because it didn’t have popular characters in it, but it was still a viable idea for a series if the time was right. The time wasn’t quite right, so it didn’t quite make it.” Who knows? Perhaps one day there will be yet another team to bear the name Liberty Legion and we’ll once again hear the clarion call, “Let’s Go, Legion!” Sincere thanks to Roy Thomas for his unique insight. DEWEY CASSELL is author of over 40 articles and three books, including The Incredible Herb Trimpe, available from TwoMorrows Publishing. He is currently writing a book about Mike Grell.

22 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

NEW FOR 2018! JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST: CENTENNIAL EDITION

This final, fully-updated, definitive edition clocks in at DOUBLE the length of the 2008 “Gold Edition”, in a new 256-page LTD. EDITION HARDCOVER (only 1000 copies) listing every release up to Jack’s 100th birthday! Detailed listings of all of Kirby’s published work, reprints, magazines, books, foreign editions, newspaper strips, fine art and collages, fanzines, essays, interviews, portfolios, posters, radio and TV appearances, and even Jack’s unpublished work! (256-page LIMITED EDITION HARDCOVER) $34.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-083-0 • SHIPS APRIL 2018!

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID! (JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #75)

This first-of-its-kind examination of the creators of the Marvel Universe looks back at their own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and television interviews, to paint a picture of JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s relationship—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Also here are recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, JOHN ROMITA SR., and more Marvel Bullpen stalwarts who worked with both Kirby and Lee. Rounding out this book is a study of the duo’s careers after they parted ways as collaborators, including Kirby’s difficulties at Marvel Comics in the 1970s, his last hurrah with Lee on the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel, and his exhausting battle to get back his original art—and creator credit—from Marvel. STUF’ SAID gives both men their say, compares their recollections, and tackles the question, “Who really created the Marvel Comics Universe?”. (160-page trade paperback) $24.95 • (Digital Edition) $11.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-086-1 • SHIPS FALL 2018!

COMIC BOOK IMPLOSION

AN ORAL HISTORY OF DC COMICS CIRCA 1978

Things looked bleak for comic books throughout the 1970s because of plummeting sell-through rates. With each passing year, the newsstand became less and less interested in selling comic books. The industry seemed locked in a death spiral, but the Powers That Be at DC Comics had an idea to reverse their fortunes. In 1978, they implemented a bold initiative: Provide readers with more story pages by increasing the pricepoint of a regular comic book to make it comparable to other magazines sold on newsstands. Billed as “THE DC EXPLOSION,” this expansion saw the introduction of numerous creative new titles. But mere weeks after its launch, DC’s parent company pulled the plug, demanding a drastic decrease in the number of comic books they published, and leaving stacks of completed comic book stories unpublished. The series of massive cutbacks and cancellations quickly became known as “THE DC IMPLOSION.” TwoMorrows Publishing marks the 40th Anniversary of one of the most notorious events in comics with an exhaustive oral history from the creators and executives involved (JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, and AL MILGROM, among many others), as well as detailed analysis and commentary by other top professionals, who were “just fans” in 1978 (MARK WAID, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, TOM BREVOORT, and more)—examining how it changed the landscape of comics forever! By KEITH DALLAS and JOHN WELLS. (136-page trade paperback with COLOR) $21.95 • (Digital Edition) $10.95 • SHIPS SUMMER 2018! ISBN: 978-1-60549-085-4

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES: The 1990s

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES: THE 1990s is a year-by-year account of the comic book industry during the Bill Clinton years. This full-color hardcover documents the comic book industry’s most significant publications, most notable creators, and most impactful trends from that decade. Written by KEITH DALLAS and JASON SACKS. (288-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $44.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.95 • SHIPS FALL 2018! ISBN: 978-1-60549-084-7

TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com

TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA

All characters TM & © their respective owners.

THE 1990s was the decade when Marvel Comics sold 8.1 million copies of an issue of the X-MEN, saw its superstar creators form their own company, cloned SPIDER-MAN, and went bankrupt. The 1990s was when SUPERMAN died, BATMAN had his back broken, and the runaway success of Neil Gaiman’s SANDMAN led to DC Comics’ VERTIGO line of adult comic books. It was the decade of gimmicky covers, skimpy costumes, and mega-crossovers. But most of all, the 1990s was the decade when companies like IMAGE, VALIANT and MALIBU published million-selling comic books before the industry experienced a shocking and rapid collapse.

by L e n

jack kirby Susan Skaar.

Kirby Uninked Courtesy of John Morrow and The Jack Kirby Collector, the King’s cover pencils to the Thing/ Liberty Legion pairing in Marvel Two-in-One #20 (Oct. 1976). TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

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Gould

There is a lot going on across the October 1976 coverdated Marvel Two-in-One #20. Harkening back to an earlier era, Kirby meticulously arranges incredible complexity here. The scene’s receding layout is tremendously intricate with Kirby taking advantage of every possible square inch of white space. The series’ title star, the Thing, is in the midst of fending off an attack by three villains in broad daylight on the streets of New York City. The Nazi Master Man, Skyshark, and the Sub-Mariner’s old foe, U-Man, are attacking our hero at once. Above the scene are the “Floating Heads” of each member of the Liberty Legion: the Whizzer, Miss America, the Patriot, and Blue Diamond. Marvel’s “Floating Heads” layouts appeared on a varied list of covers, across all genres and titles, starting from the very early 1960s through Kirby’s second departure in 1978, and on through today. Many of Marvel’s iconic covers (think Avengers #43 or 60) featured some sort of heads gazing downwards. Oftentimes the heads were left to be applied only once the title and masthead had been properly placed upon the artwork by the production staff. This allowed a bit of flexibility for the production team, which was prized in their deadline-driven world. However, on this cover they are meticulously hand drawn by the King. This work is far beyond an artistic rough or a preliminary workup—these are fully finished pencils. Frank Giacoia, the cover’s inker, laid such sure lines that they added vitality to the art without overwhelming either Jack’s line work or his vision for the finished piece. Giacoia was the perfect choice to ink this cover as he and Jack had known each other and worked with one another since the 1950s. Frank respected Jack’s pencils. There was no modifying of intent or blurring of vision. It’s also clear that Kirby invested quite a bit of time working on and refining the detailed streetscape in the background. Sprinkled in are all sorts of Kirby trademarks, including gems such as the vintage roadster and the startled crowd of onlookers that blend seamlessly with the highly detailed streetlight and buildings fading into the distance. When studying the evolution of this piece, from preliminary pencils through the finished and inked piece, emblem looks like Kirby [himself]… it is crystal clear that Frank Giacoia not sure which of us did that!” john romita, sr. [Editor’s note: The pencils on the was doing his best to fill in the blacks Pinguino. as Jack intended them. opposite page show that it was the This evolution also reveals two significant changes King who drew himself “as” the Master Man.] made to this cover scene. The first is the lowering of This powerful cover truly brought some of the the angle of U-Man’s left arm to allow more room for Golden Age’s lesser lights right into the heart of the Miss Liberty’s head, the title, and the masthead stats. Bronze Age, accomplished by sending the Thing back The second is that the bystander closest to U-Man’s to 1942 to make the story work. Jack Kirby was 59 going on 60 as he worked at his left leg has been transformed from an ordinary citizen drawing table on this. He had only recently returned into a policeman. A visit to the Grand Comics Database was in order to Marvel a few months earlier and the excitement in to determine if there was any commentary on these comics fandom was palpable. The King was back where changes. There was, and as it turns out, John Romita, he belonged. Sr. was listed as an additional artist for the cover. The Golden Age and its heroes were especially His credit was for “alterations.” relevant to Kirby for a whole host of reasons, the most While drawn and completed over 40 years ago, obvious being Kirby’s own personal experiences the spry, 87-year-old Romita tells BACK ISSUE, “I was throughout World War II. Decades later, as the United States approached its Stan Lee’s retouch man. The head on the left looks bicentennial and as Kirby neared his own significant like I touched it up.” Mr. Romita did not have any other recollections of birthday, he was tasked to create this patriotic cover. He earnestly took up the challenge. And the result working on this cover, although he adds, “The only other thing of note is the guy with the Nazi chest is what you see here.

Kirby Inked Frank Giacoia’s embellishments— along with alterations by John Romita, Sr.— over our spotlighted cover. TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 25

The airwaves got a little more crowded in 1941 when the FCC approved FM radio for commercial use. Touted for its higher sound quality than AM, the band Steely Dan would later proclaim in their 1978 hit “FM” that there was “no static at all.” The same didn’t hold true for a certain DC Comics hero introduced in December 1941’s Detective Comics #60, but Air-Wave got along just fine for nearly seven years. Clad in a green and yellow costume with antennae on his hood and a lightning bolt on his chest, the hero unnerved crooks by broadcasting his voice through metal objects like a gun. “I developed this belt radio to draw the natural radio-electric energy that exists all around us,” he declared in his debut. “It powers my radio set. My antennae enable me to hear conversations miles away and to send my voice by microphone. When I want to speed, I use these retractable skate-wheels on my boots.” The skates were also useful for what became an Air-Wave trademark: racing along electrical wires strung high in the air. The newcomer was really Larry Jordan, a law clerk who wore glasses and a fake mustache in the offices of District Attorney Cole. Seven episodes into the feature (Detective #66), Cole was murdered and Larry was named his replacement. (Ironically, Air-Wave had already displaced another D.A. when his feature replaced the long-running “Steve Malone, District Attorney” strip.) With Cole’s demise and the exit of recurring nemesis Professor Gurn (’Tec #61, 65), the supporting cast was reduced to a chatterbox parrot named Static whom Air-Wave picked up in Detective #64. Together they fought the likes of Doctor Silence (’Tec #77), Snake Eyes (’Tec #88), the Beam (’Tec #113), and an array of nondescript crooks. By the time the feature ended in 1948’s Detective #137, the duo was dealing with bicycle thieves. Believed to have been created by either Mort Weisinger or Murray Boltinoff, Air-Wave began and ended his career with the pencils and inks of Harris Levy (signing his work as “Lee Harris”). After he joined the military in 1942, Levy ceded the art assignment to his friend George Roussos (Detective #75–112, 1943–1946). The latter’s tenure is perhaps the most memorable of the feature’s run, less for his line art than the often groundbreaking color techniques he employed. A Roussos Air-Wave story was reprinted more than two decades later in 1971’s Superman #245 (a 100-Page Super Spectacular) and reprint editor E. Nelson Bridwell kept the Air-Wave love coming when he included a 1942 Levy-illustrated tale in 1972’s World’s Finest Comics #212.

AIR WAVE’S BRONZE AGE DEBUT

One can’t help but sense Bridwell’s hand in the eventual revival of the hero in October 1977’s landmark Green Lantern #100 (cover-dated Jan. 1978). GL was, after all, Hal Jordan, and the continuity-oriented ENB (assistant to editor Julius Schwartz) must have surely posited a relationship with the earlier Larry. If that was the case, though, GL #100 scripter Denny O’Neil has no recollection of it. “Alas, I remember little of the Air Wave saga,” he tells BACK ISSUE, “and what I do remember might not be accurate. Anyway, here’s what I think happened: Somewhere along the line, I became aware of AW. Maybe I remembered him from my comics-reading childhood, maybe I found him while rummaging through DC’s library. He seemed like a lightweight and maybe his obscurity wasn’t undeserved. But something in him seemed deserving of another chance, so I gave him one. I don’t recall what parts Julie and Nelson played in all this.” O’Neil revealed early into issue #100’s tale that the Golden Age crimebuster had died in the 1960s. Larry’s legacy was carried on by a teenage son who took the Air Wave name (note the lack of hyphen), but roller-skates and a loquacious parrot wouldn’t cut it in the 1970s. Instead, the novice utilized helmet-based technology conceived by his

Air Wave Tunes In Our young hero’s debut, on the cover of Green Lantern #100 (Jan. 1978). Cover art by Mike Grell. TM & © DC Comics.

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by J o

hn Wells

dad to literally transform into electrical energy. “It enables me to travel along any radio, radar, or television wave,” the young man explained. What Air Wave II lacked was experience. After mistakenly punching Green Lantern and getting socked in return, the kid admitted that he didn’t have “the remotest notion of how a super-hero is supposed to do his thing.” GL generously volunteered to mentor the kid and they joined forces to defeat a villain-for-hire called Master-Tek, who was soaking up broadcast energy and expelling it as waves of force. Afterwards, Air Wave revealed to GL that he’d deduced his civilian identity… with the kicker that he was also named Hal Jordan! Reflecting on the plot twist, Green Lantern realized that the teenager must be the son of his Uncle Larry. “I’m pretty sure [that idea came from] Julie,” Bob Rozakis tells BACK ISSUE. “It’s the kind of thing he would suggest, particularly if Nelson Bridwell told him the two were cousins.” The revival of Air Wave ultimately came down to his surname. If Larry had been named anything other than Jordan, the GL story and everything that followed would never have happened. In fact, the story itself almost hadn’t happened. When Green Lantern was revived in May 1976, the intention was for Denny O’Neil to write and edit three issues with co-star Green Arrow. After that, Julius Schwartz would take over the editing with issue #93 and switch to GL solo adventures. Once new DC publisher Jenette Kahn saw sales figures on the first issue of the revival, however, she insisted that Green Arrow had to stay. Consequently, a two-page epilogue was tacked onto GL #93 that returned the Ace Archer to the book.

By that point, O’Neil had already written a script for Green Lantern #94, one that introduced a new regular partner for the Emerald Crusader who was as far removed from Green Arrow as possible. When Green Lantern #100 appeared on his schedule a year later, Julius Schwartz saw an opportunity. He was already sitting on an unpublished Green Arrow/Black Canary meant for 1st Issue Special in early 1976. By doing a double-sized issue for GL #100, he could use that and the Air Wave story meant for issue #94. He just had to get it illustrated. Enter Alex Saviuk, a recent graduate of New York City’s School for Visual Arts. The artist had done only a few short stories to that point, the most recent of which had been a two-page horror piece for editor Murray Boltinoff. “I was doing this Neal Adams thing where I was staggering the panel sizes and having characters’ heads breaking the panel borders, etc.” Saviuk detailed to Keith Dallas in The Flash Companion (2008). “And Murray hated it!” Saviuk continued. “He said, ‘Oh, this is terrible! It’s so hard to read! It’s hard to follow.’ And he brought it in to show to [then-art director] Vince Colletta and within minutes Murray—may he rest in peace, and that’s probably why I’m getting away with telling this story—Murray came back and he looked in a bit of a huff, so I wanted to avoid him at all costs. Vince then called me into his office and he said, ‘Hey, kid, I just saw your story. It looked great!’ I said, ‘Gee, thanks! I don’t think Murray really liked it.’ Vince said, ‘Well, don’t worry about that. Hey, how would you like to draw Green Lantern?’ And I literally said, ‘What?’ ” Colletta explained that the book’s regular artist Mike Grell was otherwise occupied with drawing an upcoming Legion of Super-Heroes tabloid and they needed a

Hero in Training (left) Splash from Green Lantern #100, showing Air Wave tangling with Master-Tek. (right) Green Arrow tutors Air Wave in Green Lantern #104 (May 1978). By O’Neil/Saviuk/ Colletta. TM & © DC Comics.

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 27

Solo Series (top) Action Comics #488 (Oct. 1978) featured an Air Wave backup. Cover by José Luis García-López and Dick Giordano. (middle) AW’s splash from that issue. By Bob Rozakis, longtime Air Wave artist Alex Saviuk, and inker Frank Chiaramonte. TM & © DC Comics.

penciler for GL #100’s lead story. “I told Julie Schwartz that you’re better than [legendary GL artist] Gil Kane,” Saviuk recalled Colletta telling him. “And Vince said, ‘Yeah, your stuff is really tight, and I think you’re better than Gil Kane.’ And I’m thinking to myself, ‘God, I wish you wouldn’t have said that.’ “So, at any rate, I walked in to meet Julie Schwartz, and in his own inimitable way, without even saying ‘Hello,’ he asked, ‘So, what makes you think you can draw Green Lantern?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m a big fan of the character. I loved Gil Kane as I was growing up. I still love him right now. It just would be a wonderful opportunity, and I know I can do it justice.’ He goes, ‘Okay, draw me up a couple samples of the character. Let me see how you do it in your style.’ So I went home and drew a couple pages of samples, just drawing the character himself, not storytelling. I showed it to Julie Schwartz, and he liked it, and then he reached into his desk and handed me a script. So I was kind of freaked out because I was working on a Denny O’Neil Green Lantern story. That was the story that reintroduced Air Wave, and to be clichéd, I guess I would say the rest is history.” With four exceptions (the Mike Grell-penciled GL #106 and the Romeo Tanghal-penciled Action Comics #512–514), Saviuk drew all of Air Wave’s appearances through 1983, variously inked by Vince Colletta, Dave Hunt, John Celardo, Frank Chiaramonte, and Sam de la Rosa. Young Hal’s association with writer Denny O’Neil was much shorter, though. The 16-year-old picked up fighting techniques from Green Arrow and Black Canary in GL #104–106, even as he struggled to get a handle on controlling his energy form. A subplot found him first trapped in a phantom state and then stranded in Paris after riding an errant broadcast signal to rescue survivors of a plane crash.

AIR WAVE IN ACTION

The incident didn’t put him off air travel, though. At the end of a Bob Rozakis-scripted fill-in (GL #107), young Hal revealed that he was taking a flight to Dallas to join the household of the elder Hal’s district attorney brother Jack (previously seen in half a dozen Silver Age Green Lantern stories). With the Rozakis/Saviuk team in place, Air Wave returned to the editorial oversight of Julius Schwartz as a backup feature (rotating with the Atom) in Action Comics. Jack C. Harris, who became Green Lantern’s editor with issue #104, facilitated the exchange, telling BACK ISSUE, “I was happy to let Julie keep Air Wave and use him wherever he wanted.” In Action #488’s (Oct. 1978) first installment, Air Wave defeated hijackers at the Dallas Airport before he even had a chance to meet his new family in his civilian identity. Jack and his wife Jan introduced Hal to their toddler twins Jason and Jennifer, but the 16-year-old only had eyes for the babysitter. Karen Peterson was the classic girl-next-door and Hal was elated that Jack had made arrangements for his future Taylor High classmate to show him around town. Doused in aftershave lotion, the young man took a short detour from his date to derail the flying train of the villainous Casey Jones. Rozakis had built a reputation at DC as a writer of adolescent heroes— first Robin, then the Teen Titans—but those characters had been more worldly and experienced. Air Wave, by contrast, was a babe in the woods, prone to expressions like “Jeepers” and rather charming in his old-school demeanor. “The members of the Teen Titans had been trained by their respective mentors for a number of years,” Rozakis observes. “Since Hal had never been a ‘kid sidekick,’ I played him much more as learning on the job, remembering things that GL had told him. He started out on his own, whereas Robin, et al., began their careers working with an adult hero.” Hal took the lessons he’d learned in Green Lantern to heart, though, and a regular detail in Air Wave’s solo series found him drawing up relevant bits of advice from his superhero mentors. “He would always have these little thought balloons up there that’d say, ‘Hmmmm, what would Green Lantern say? How would he approach this?’ ” Alex Saviuk recalled in a 2006 interview with Daniel Best. “It would force him to more or less use his wits and come up with a solution instead of just plunging in and going off the cuff to try and solve a particular situation.” That didn’t prevent him from jeopardizing his secret identity right out of the gate. Once she caught a whiff of the aftershave-reeking Air Wave,

Costume Cut-Up (bottom) From Air Wave’s long-delayed return to Action, in issue #511 (Sept. 1980), Karen Peterson gives her beau some super-sartorial help. TM & © DC Comics.

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Karen Peterson knew exactly who he was. The cliffhanger was meant to be resolved in Action #490, but the story was disrupted by the DC Implosion. Forced to cut back on an ambitious expansion initiative, the publisher dropped eight story pages from each of its regular titles… and backups like those starring Air Wave were shelved. It was June 1980 before the expansion resumed and the second Air Wave eight-pager was published in Action Comics #511 (cover-dated Sept. 1980). After Jason and Jennifer discovered Hal’s costume and tore it up, Karen had confirmation that her new boyfriend was a superhero. With Hal sidelined by too much sun, Karen had time to not only patch up the costume but redesign it before she slipped the garment back in his closet. Oblivious to the changes, Air Wave only realized he had a new outfit when he captured a sniper at Six Flags and discovered handcuffs in a pocket that hadn’t been there before. Keeping her silence, Karen merely smiled. (The actual designer of the costume, incidentally, was DC writer Len Wein.) “I was trying to put Hal in a family situation as well as one that would fit with a young teen,” Rozakis says of the feature’s cast. “As a change of pace, Karen knew his secret identity (though he didn’t realize it). And having the twins act as younger siblings gave me an opportunity to put some humor into the situations.” Rozakis added in issue #516’s letters column that the story—with the backdrop of a heatwave—had been written in February of 1978… “during a blizzard!” Three other scripts from 1978 were belatedly penciled by Romeo Tanghal for Action #512–514. The first introduced a villain expressly designed to be Air Wave’s opposite number. Surrounded by a fiery aura, the Sunspotter “harnessed the energy of sunspots,” using it to jam radio alarms, fire magnetic charges, and “interfere with air waves.” That was problem for a hero called Air Wave, but Hal figured out a solution by adding an electromagnet to his costume.

AIR WAVE TEAM-UPS

Air Wave joined forces with Action’s other backup feature in issue #513 (Nov. 1980) when he and the Atom fought Green Arrow’s old foe, the Red Dart. Transporting back to the Justice League satellite at the end of the adventure, the Tiny Titan was hijacked by parties unknown. Action #514 revealed that the Atom had been inadvertently pulled along when a revenge-seeking Sunspotter used his powers to trap Air Wave within an electromagnetic bubble. Atom intervened but was frozen into an icicle before the Sunspotter took off for his latest crime. Resourcefully maneuvering his bubble beneath the dripping ice, Air Wave shorted out his prison, rescued the Tiny Titan, and united with Atom to defeat the bad guy once and for all. The rotation of backup solo series should have resumed at that point, but the surprise addition of an Aquaman feature to the book once again left Air Wave in limbo. Dallas’ foremost superhero finally returned in issue #524 (on sale in July 1981), reunited with both the Atom and penciler Alex Saviuk. Continuing from the previous two months’ Atom tales, the story found the heroes in conflict with the Calculator, a popular Rozakis creation first seen

Teen and Tiny Titan Together (left) The Ross Andru/Giordano cover to Action #513 (Nov. 1980), touting Atom and Air Wave’s team-up. (right) GL and AW’s reunion in Action #527 (Jan. 1982), co-starring Aquaman. By Rozakis/Saviuk/ Dennis Jensen. TM & © DC Comics.

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in 1976. The villain’s energy projections from his helmet made him vulnerable to Air Wave’s powers, and he wound up being shorted out on the last page. Hal resumed his solo adventures in Action #525 (Nov. 1981), accompanying Karen on a science-fiction art exhibit and fighting a thief dressed as fictional pulp adventurer Cosmic Corsair. Convinced that Hal had lost his memory of his alter ego thanks to a blow to the head, Karen dressed as the Corsair herself in order to snap her boyfriend back to the normal. It worked, but Karen was now committed to use the outfit at a masquerade parade to explain why she’d been wearing it. Her date came as a certain Emerald Gladiator, prompting Karen to laugh, “Who’d ever believe Hal Jordan could be Green Lantern?” (Another in-joke involved a display of the first s-f fanzine—1932’s The Time Traveller—that had been created by [among others] future DC editors Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger.) Issue #526’s installment was framed in a letter from Hal to his namesake cousin. Struck by lightning while in his energy state, Air Wave slowly realized he’d acquired the ability to read minds. The complement to his energy powers was short-lived, though, ending when he shorted out an electric chair that was meant to do in his district attorney cousin Jack. (Earlier in the story, incidentally, Jack had remarked that Hal’s dad Larry had inspired his career in law.) Green Lantern reunited with Air Wave in Action #527 (Jan. 1982) and helped his cousin track down Aquaman. Seeking an answer to the mystery of an alien hexapus that he’d discovered, Air Wave watched as the sea-faring hero was transported to an unknown world. After two issues working solo, Aquaman returned to Earth in issue #530 with the help of the Atom. Air Wave returned for the next transitional team-up in Action #533, helping the Atom stop an attack on a convention full of nuclear scientists. As issue #534’s new Air Wave story opened, Hal was fantasizing about joining the Justice League. Failing that, he noted that “I’m old enough now to become a Teen Titan.” Maybe Green Lantern could get him an interview with team leader Robin. The teenager’s thoughts grew more serious once he discovered an alien plot to test a world-killing bomb on Earth. With the clock ticking in Action #535 and no way of defusing the device, Air Wave flew it into space. Tearfully awaiting the end, Hal cursed the fact that “no one will know I saved the world. Never to see any of my family or friends again… never to grow up to become a Justice Leaguer… never to taste another of cousin Jan’s pecan pies… or smooch with Karen.” Minutes passed… and nothing happened. A relieved Hal concluded the bomb had been a dud. A week later, Air Wave was summoned before the Justice League and informed otherwise. “When you energized yourself and the bomb to carry it away from Earth, you converted it from matter to energy,” Batman explained. “Since an explosion is a conversion of matter to energy and that had already taken place, there was no explosion.” “Keep it up, Air Wave,” Hawkman added, “and one of these days you’ll be elected a Justice Leaguer!” As the team cheered, Air Wave blushed with pride. It was a nice moment for the young hero to go out on, at least as the star of a solo series. Rozakis adds, though, that “the last Air Wave story was not the last ‘Action-Plus’ story I did, so I doubt I was foreshadowing anything.” In any event, Action was poised to begin featuring full-length Superman stories and its backup heroes were given their walking papers following a final Aquaman arc. In the case of Air Wave, Rozakis and Saviuk weren’t quite done with him yet.

Whatever Happened to the Original Air Wave? DC Comics Presents #40 (Dec. 1981) answered that question, plus introduced readers to Helen Jordan as Air Wave II and hinted at an Air Wave in the making. TM & © DC Comics.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO AIR WAVE?

Months earlier, in September 1981’s DC Comics Presents #40 (cover-dated Dec. 1981), the creative team revealed “Whatever Happened to the Original Air Wave?” The story detailed how D.A. Larry Jordan had updated his costume to convert himself to energy only to be shot and killed in his own home by vengeful escaped convict Joe Parsons. Larry’s costume electronically materialized in his bedroom and his widow Helen took that as a sign that she should track out her husband’s killer. Using her ballet training to dance around Parsons, the female Air Wave (discreetly concealing her gender) succeeded in catching the murderer and put the costume away, vowing to bequeath it to young Hal one day. DC Comics Presents #55 expanded on the story as Superman traveled to the past and revisited his lone encounter with the original Air Wave. Larry had wanted nothing to do with the 14-year-old Superboy, snarling at him to stop interfering in one of his cases. As uncomfortable as the scene had been, the Man of Steel realized that Jordan had done him a favor. If he’d remained on the scene, the Boy of Steel would have been exposed to gold kryptonite and permanently lost his powers. Filled with gratitude, Superman flew to Dallas to somehow repay the favor. His plans were interrupted by a team-up between Casey Jones and the Parasite, but the hero was eventually able to take Hal on a visit to the past and let him personally witness the heroism of the original Air Wave. “I would have enjoyed doing more Air Wave stories, especially since I had control over pretty much everything about him,” Rozakis adds. “The ‘Whatever Happened to...?’ and DCCP stories were a great way to fill in more of the background of the character and his world.” The only real loose end was Hal’s mother. Early on, readers may have assumed that she was dead since teenage Hal was initially homeless and later moved in with

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TM & © DC Comics.

Jack’s family. In DCCP #55, though, readers saw Helen Jordan present her son with the Air Wave costume and happily waving goodbye as he went on the road… despite the fact that he was still a couple years away from high school graduation. “Thirty years later, it’s hard to recall what we were thinking,” Rozakis says, “but I suspect we originally had him orphaned and his nearest next-of-kin would have been GL and his brothers. That said, it made much more sense for young Hal to live with a family rather than his unmarried Uncle Hal. The scene in DCCP seems rather odd, in retrospect, since Hal was only about 15 or 16 at the time; it’s something we must have forgotten about.” Although his father made fleeting appearances in the World War II-based All-Star Squadron and Young All-Stars during the 1980s, Hal “Air Wave” Jordan mostly faded from view after 1982. His entry in 1985’s Who’s Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe #1 introduced a bright yellow and blue costume designed by Stephen DeStefano, but the outfit was only used in actual stories during that year’s Crisis on Infinite Earths #4, 5, and 12. Post-Crisis, Air Wave went back to limbo. When he did return in 1989’s Firestorm the Nuclear Man #88, the hero had been completely made over as a pawn of the sinister Sunderland Corporation. Bulked up with his brown hair dyed blond, Harold Lawrence Jordan (who preferred to be called Larry) wore a red, white, and blue costume and sported the new alias of Maser. The new persona lasted for only a handful of appearances. “Larry” returned as Air Wave in 1998’s Chase #9, and was seen again in 2000’s JSA #11 and 12. Imprisoned by the terrorist Kobra, he was freed by the Justice Society and reclaimed his original codename, now spelled as one word. Airwave made a few more appearances over the next several years before ultimately perishing in 2006’s Infinite Crisis #4.

HAS AIR WAVE TUNED OUT?

Air Wave did not appear in DC’s rebooted New 52 era, but writer Geoff Johns included an oblique nod to the character in the pages of 2016’s DC Universe: Rebirth #1. The introduction of an African-American version of Wally (Kid Flash) West seemed to preclude the earlier Caucasian Wally from having a place in the revised DC timeline, but Johns’ story revealed otherwise. Both Wallys existed as cousins, sharing the same name not unlike the earlier pair of Hal Jordans. In retrospect, one wonders if the hero’s relative obscurity might have been averted had the 1976–1977 revival of Teen Titans lasted longer. “If I had still been doing Teen Titans at the time,” Bob Rozakis notes, “I would have had Air Wave join them, occasionally, at least, if not permanently. It would have been interesting to have some of the other Titans mentoring him, perhaps setting up a clash between a couple (say, Robin and Speedy) over how to do it.” New Teen Titans creators Marv Wolfman and George Pérez had no interest in most of the previous run’s heroes when developing their 1980s incarnation, but subsequent writers and artists frequently revived anyone who had ever boasted a spot on the Titans roster. Air Wave had the misfortune of premiering during a publication gap in the Teen Titans’ history and would never enjoy the perks that came with membership. Nonetheless, a generation of fans recalls young Hal Jordan with fondness. “It just amazes me that people would even remember that I did Air Wave,” Alex Saviuk bob rozakis told Daniel Best in 2006, “because quite frankly they were Sammi Rozakis. these backup comics that I was doing for Action Comics and World’s Finest. In Action, I did Air Wave, the Atom, and Aquaman. In World’s Finest, I did Hawkman. I even did one installment of Green Arrow in World’s Finest, but out of all the backup characters that I did, they ask for Air Wave. I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me to draw them an Aquaman. I can count on my hand the amount of times I’ve gotten to draw Hawkman or the Atom for somebody, just out of the blue, someone asking me for that particular sketch. But yeah, I’m pretty surprised that people remember Air Wave.” Bob Rozakis adds his praise for Saviuk, telling BACK ISSUE, “There are very few artists that have drawn as many stories of mine as Alex. I always enjoyed the clean, crisp look of his work.” Four decades after his debut, a digital-powered superhero is more relevant than ever in 2018. Will Air Wave fly again? It seems almost inevitable. JOHN WELLS is a comics historian specializing in DC Comics who has served as resource for projects ranging from Kurt Busiek’s The Power Company to Greg Weisman’s Young Justice animated series. He is the author of the TwoMorrows books American Comic Book Chronicles: 1960–1964 and 1965–1969.

The Post-Crisis Air Wave (top) The hero formerly known as Air Wave, now Maser, from Firestorm the Nuclear Man #88 (Aug. 1989). By John Ostrander and Tom Mandrake. (bottom) Airwave’s in a new costume in this appearance in JSA #77 (Nov. 2005). By Geoff Johns, Jim Fern, and Mick Gray. TM & © DC Comics.

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It was much more than a Justice Society of America revival. When Roy Thomas, whose name was second only to Stan Lee’s as THE Marvel Comics writer/editor, vacated the House of Ideas for DC Comics in 1981, one of his projects was a World War II-based series featuring not just the JSA but just about every character that ever graced a DC book during comics’ Golden Age. The result was All-Star Squadron, a monthly title premiering with a Sept. 1981 cover date (after a preview the month prior in Justice League of America #193), blending retroactive DC continuity with US and world history. The series enjoyed a run of 67 issues with three Annuals, plus a spin-off (Infinity, Inc.) and a continuation (Young All-Stars). Initially drawn by penciler Rich Buckler and inker Jerry Ordway, ASS (insert your own sophomoric gag here) witnessed a squadron of amazing illustrators during its run, including Arvell Jones, who joined Roy, Jerry, and me (as moderator) for this panel at HeroesCon in Charlotte, North Carolina, on June 17, 2017. – Michael Eury roy thomas MICHAEL EURY: Any objections to my © Luigi Novi / Wikimedia. recording this for transcription in BACK ISSUE? ROY THOMAS: How about recording it for Alter Ego? [laughter] JERRY ORDWAY: I’d like to record it for the FBI… [laughter] EURY: I’m Michael Eury, the editor of BACK ISSUE magazine, and I am honored to bring you to Earth-Two today and introduce to you our All-Star Squadron panel. We’ll start with Arvell Jones. [applause] Then Jerry Ordway. [applause] And last, but not least… Roy Thomas. [applause] Before we get started, let’s observe a moment of silence to remember Rich Buckler, the original artist of this series, who passed away on May 19th. [silence] Thank you. Roy, we’re going to start with you. You’ve told this story many times before, but for the record, how did All-Star Squadron come about? THOMAS: I just wanted to do it, you know. I had just left Marvel, and DC wanted to keep me happy but they didn’t really want a Justice Society comic, because the Justice Society comic that Paul Levitz had been writing at the end had just died in the previous year or two, and I didn’t really want to revive it. I loved that group, but just bringing it back again a year or two later… I could have done it, but… I had been doing Invaders at Marvel for a number of years and I just got into the thing where I sort of liked doing World War II comics. I didn’t want to just write the Justice Society, I wanted to write everybody. Everybody, every character that ever existed at DC, maybe a few more. So I talked them into the idea of the All-Star Squadron, and that’s how it happened. It was a good seller for the first couple of years. When Ordway wandered off it didn’t help anything, but we struggled on. Arvell came aboard and we had some other good artists. It did okay. If it hadn’t been for that damn Crisis,

The Gang’s All Here… …and if they’re not, eventually they’ll show up in All-Star Squadron. Cover to issue #1 (Sept. 1981) by Rich Buckler. TM & © DC Comics.

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by M i c h a e l

Eury

transcribed by Brian Martin

it might still be going. We’d be up to about issue three or four hundred and I might even have gotten to 1943. [laughter] EURY: Was there any opposition to setting it during World War II? Because the last time the Justice Society had been seen, they were set in contemporary times. THOMAS: No, there really wasn’t a lot. I think probably because the previous JSA comic, having just failed in the present, made it easier for me to do despite the fact that Invaders had never been a huge hit. I was not under the illusion that All-Star Squadron was going to be the biggest hit ever—that was not my interest. I had very little interest in my audience anymore. If my audience was interested in what I wanted to do, and I had made them interested enough for me to make a living… but other than that, I had zero interest in writing comics for anybody except myself. But I had to fool the publisher and the editor into thinking that I did, and it sort of worked. It was a reasonably popular comic, and I think I probably did some things that didn’t make it more popular. Like having a cast of 80 people, or maybe not focusing on the same four or five or six over and over, but that wasn’t my interest. You know, I was interested in a tapestry, not just the usual group where you’ve got four or five people and a few others. I wanted to be dealing with everybody, and I was aware how risky that was and that it might not work. It lasted [67] issues, and then the Young All-Stars for another 30 issues after that. It wasn’t a bad run, and again, if it hadn’t been for Crisis it probably would have limped along, gotten back on track, and done well again. I was very lucky in the artists that I had. Buckler and Jerry in the beginning, then Jerry turned out he could actually draw! [laughter] First when they wanted him to, they said Jerry’s going to draw it, and I said, “Whaaat!?” We knew he could ink, and then I saw a few pages that great. Then I went to Arvell and a few other people later on to pick up the slack after Jerry left. In between we had Rick Hoberg, who did a really nice job for a while, and a few other people.

EURY: Adrian Gonzales… [Adrian Gonzales penciled issues #6–18 as well as Annual #1.] THOMAS: Yeah, Adrian Gonzales, he was really good, and especially, of course, there Jerry became really important, because Adrian did a pretty good job of storytelling and Jerry tied it together to give it that slick look. Well, he’ll tell you more about it. ORDWAY: Right. Adrian didn’t really have the same connection. I’d already been on it for a while, so I kind of understood the main characters and their appeal or whatever. So I think that was a big deal. Also costumes. I still think of that when I’m doing a sketch. THOMAS: I was a little particular about costumes. ORDWAY: But you know what, it made me think about it, too. I was drawing the Golden Age Green Lantern recently and I was like, “Wait, he’s left-handed,” and I remember that because— THOMAS: I don’t remember that. ORDWAY: —I always thought about it. Then Jade became left-handed with Infinity, Inc. THOMAS: You remember that?

Some Assembly Required (left) Rich Buckler/ Dick Giordano cover for the All-Star Squadron preview story in Justice League of America #193 (Aug. 1981). (right) Original art page from the preview by Buckler and Jerry Ordway. Courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

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FDR’s Super Seven (bottom) President Franklin D. Roosevelt was a recurring player in the pages of Thomas’ All-Star Squadron. Panels from issue #1. (top) The book’s original lineup, from #1: Plastic Man, Dr. Mid-Nite, the Atom, Johnny Quick, Liberty Belle, Hawkman, and Robotman. Art by Buckler and Ordway. TM & © DC Comics.

ORDWAY: That was the great thing. When I first started on the book, Roy, I was the finisher, I was the new guy, but I remember getting a box of like reference stuff—Xeroxes. THOMAS: That was just for one issue! [laughter] ORDWAY: It was literally a big box full of stuff including Xeroxes out of books. Nowadays, with the ability to Google something, it would be so much easier, but basically in those days it was hard to transport reference short of going to the library and finding the same book. But, yeah, when I got the project I had started at DC, I was part of the talent search in 1980, the summer of ’80. I got work—Joe Orlando chose me, Paul Levitz chose me—and I got a few little jobs during that summer. Then I got a call from Paul and he said, “Would you like to ink The Teen Titans?” I really didn’t want to. I had a fulltime job—I was working in an art studio—so it didn’t appeal to me in that sense like, I wasn’t going to quit for it. And then, a couple of months passed. I think at that point [editor] Len Wein called me and said, “There’s this project that Roy Thomas and Rich Buckler are doing, All-Star Squadron.” And then it was like, “Wow…” I was such a huge fan. During my Marvel years, The Avengers was my favorite book, so I was like, “This is Roy Thomas. It’s a team book. This should be great.” THOMAS: You would have been better off to go with Teen Titans. [laughter] ORDWAY: You know, at the time I didn’t realize… I would have displaced Romeo Tanghal [on New Teen Titans], so it would have made me a little uncomfortable. But it wasn’t the right time, anyway. It was just timing, but it was the idea of working—and again, the Avengers stuff that Roy did. Roy was the guy. When I was a reader he used Hawkeye and a lot of the second-string characters. He made them into the star attraction, which to me was always the key to All-Star Squadron. The core group was Liberty Belle, Johnny Quick, and Robotman—nobody really knew them that well, but Roy fleshed them out, made them real. That,

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to me, was the core of the book, the fact that you had second-stringers who were carrying it and the Justice Society came in and guest-starred and it’s like, “George Clooney’s in this episode,” or whatever, it really was that. EURY: Roy, why did you choose those particular characters early on? THOMAS: I felt that those guys were the best of the non-Justice Society characters. For one thing, I tried to choose the ones that had a superpower for the most part, because there were a lot of characters… I could have gotten Aquaman, Green Arrow, or a lot of Batman types. You get one or so in a group, it’s okay—you get three or four, it’s just a bunch of guys with masks on fighting. But these others—the Shining Knight had his winged horse and his sword. Firebrand was a new character we thought up. Liberty Belle… we needed a woman in there. Johnny Quick, I always loved. First of all I discovered, especially by the time I was an adult, that Johnny Quick had been drawn so much better than the Flash, especially in the early ’40s when Mort Meskin was doing it before Carmine [Infantino] and Lee Elias and Joe Kubert came in. Who was the other one? Oh, Robotman… I’d always loved him. I stuck Plastic Man in, but somehow, he never quite worked out. ORDWAY: And Fire— THOMAS: Firebrand. She was a new character, because we needed another woman and I just thought, “Let’s swipe the Human Torch and turn him into Firebrand,” because [the original] Firebrand was not much of a character. ORDWAY: He was a guy in a pink see-through shirt. THOMAS: We had to change that a little bit. [laughter] ARVELL JONES: You still went with the see-through shirt—you just added a bustier. [laughter] EURY: Roy, how did Rich Buckler get chosen as the book’s original artist? Did you choose him? THOMAS: No, Len [Wein, All-Star Squadron’s original editor] did the choosing, although Rich and I worked together a lot and Len knew that I would like that. The thing is, Len and I already got along, but remember, I’d been sort of his editor at Marvel. He was never mine, but he was the editor I was totally dependent on at DC. So when I got over there, Len took his editorial things very seriously because that was all he had. They’d already made a deal with me that—it wasn’t exactly that I was my own editor, but they weren’t going to interfere much. So Len knew that he wasn’t supposed to push me to do this or do that, to use this character or not that character. It wouldn’t have worked, because I just wouldn’t have done it. So I tried to leave him alone and grit my teeth, so I let him do the covers. So what did he do? The cover of the first issue—I don’t think I had anything to do with the idea, and it’s probably my favorite cover of any comic I ever wrote. He chose that. He chose Jerry. He may have shown me a sample [of Ordway’s art], but it was basically his decision. We had our differences, but mostly it worked out okay. EURY: Arvell, you were close to Rich… you started together in the Detroit area. JONES: Yeah, we were fans together, worked on the Detroit Triple Fan Fare. Back in the mid-’60s through around 1972, we had a fanzine called Fan Informer. Roy used to get back at us whenever we made a mistake, or reported the wrong thing, because we heard the wrong thing. But we were mainly artists who just loved to draw comics, not so much reporters. We kind of turned that fanzine into that and discovered Jim Starlin and Al Milgrom, Mike Vosburg… THOMAS: Weren’t some of them from Detroit? JONES: All of them! THOMAS: Starlin, too? JONES: Yes, he was.

THOMAS: Of course, Jerry Bails started the first fanzine. But there was a lot of stuff going on [in Detroit]. Plus Keith Pollard. JONES: Yeah, Keith… there were about 12 of us—Terry Austin, Tom Orzechowski, Keith Pollard, Aubrey Bradford, Tim Dzon, Mike Nasser [Netzer], and my brother, Desmond Jones, all from Metro Detroit. We were all working on this fanzine, just wanting to get into comics. And Roy would feed us a little bit of information every once and a while, between being very busy. I remember going up [to Marvel] and visiting him as a fan, and he gave me like, two minutes. You might not even remember it, Roy—you were in the lobby coming out and I was there to see, I think it was Nick Cuti, he was working there and he had some little things he was going to give us, so I was up there with another writer. Roy came out and gave us a little tidbit. I got half the information wrong—I was trying to write things down, but he talks about 90 miles an hour! [laughter] THOMAS: You’re talking about Nick Cuti, right? [laughter] JONES: After getting in over at Marvel and doing a little drawing, I was all excited. Stan was there, Roy was there, all the legends. All right—I’m working with the legends! Then one day Roy calls me up and says, “I’m going to DC. I’ve got some pitches, I want you to do a little bit of artwork.” So I did some layouts, I got them to him, and he said, “Thank you.” Then I didn’t hear anything else from him! [laughter] Those rough layouts were for Captain Marvel and some Justice Society book, and I think I still have the originals around here somewhere. Some time later on, I saw the book that Rich and Roy were doing and I said, “Aw, man!” I was a fan of the Golden Age stuff as well, and I just watched it and got excited. Then one day Roy just called me up and said, “Hey, I’ve got an issue of All-Star Squadron. I wonder if you could help us out?” I said, what do you need? “Well, Rich can’t finish the second half of a two-parter” [issue #37]. I said, “I’m on it—what is it?” He said, “It’s Superman versus Captain Marvel/Shazam. What do you think, do you think you’d like to do that?” I said, [enthusiastically] “YEEESSSS! “[laughter] I just fanboyed completely out. “GIVE IT TO ME!” So he gave it to me. THOMAS: Plastic Man was in it. JONES: Yeah, Plastic Man was in there… Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel, Jr. I just got excited. After I did that issue, I guess Roy kind of liked it and asked me on the book. At the time I was a little busy, getting ready to get married, working at the TV station. I was just offered the job as a news producer. So Roy gave me one issue, and then he said, “How would you like to do Starman? He’s never had an origin.” I said, “Really? Yeah, Starman has always looked cool to me with the big star and everything.” So he gave me that to do [All-Star Squadron #41]. Then he calls me up and he goes, “You’re a big Kirby fan, aren’t you?” And I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Name a Kirby character you’d like to do.” I said, “I always liked the Guardian.” So the next thing you know, I get this script it’s got the Guardian in it [All-Star Squadron #43]. I said, “Roy, I’m not George Pérez. Please don’t put a whole lot of characters in there.” [laughter] THOMAS: I didn’t do it on purpose! Rick Hoberg got the worst. Remember, he had to do that whole two-page spread— ORDWAY: Four-page. THOMAS: —four-page spread with everybody sitting around [All-Star Squadron #31]. He enjoyed it. I don’t know why—he’s as bad as Pérez [about enjoying drawing numerous characters.] JONES: This all took place in the fall/winter of ’84, I think. I got married in May of 1985. And the next thing, we went out to California for our honeymoon and Roy invited my bride Wanda and I to visit Roy and Dann out there, and as we were talking and had dinner he said, “How would you like to do the book?” I said… “Yeah!” THOMAS: I cheese-and-wined you away. [laughter] JONES: I think I would have enjoyed it too much—I could have died happy—except I had a nine-to-five job… and it

Double Vision (top) The cover for All-Star Squadron #3 (Nov. 1981), by Buckler/Dick Giordano. (bottom) Joe Kubert’s cover originally produced for that issue ultimately ran as the cover for Alter Ego: The Comic Book Artist Collection, from TwoMorrows. TM & © DC Comics. Alter Ego TM & © Roy Thomas.

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was working at a local TV station doing the news! So, every day I’m like doing 25 news graphics a night or more: “Oh, my God, a plane crash. Oh, my God, six cars got into an accident, there was a murder.” You know, doing all these graphics. Then I’d leave there and I’d get back home and I’d look at the script and think, [sleepy voice] “What’s goin’ on here? He’s got this what, this Metropolis thing?” THOMAS: Oh, Mekanique… [All-Star Squadron #59]. JONES: But I enjoyed doing it and Roy was very accommodating. He actually said, “We’ll get some other artists to work on various portions of the book to keep it going.” EURY: Question for both of you artists: What was the biggest challenge about drawing All-Star Squadron? You had a character-rich book that was also a history piece, and you produced it in an era when you didn’t have the Internet for research. ORDWAY: My biggest challenge was, I was always trying to make things right. Like I looked and they’re flying a plane, there was certainly a certain type of plane. Reference was a big thing, and drawing real people. Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill were, like, regulars in that book. And Winston Churchill was the hardest, because he didn’t necessarily look like Winston Churchill except in that one famous, I think, [Yousuf] Karsh [celebrated portrait photographer of the 20th Century] picture at the time where he’s kind of scowling with the cigar. In any other picture, he’s kind of just a chubby, elderly guy. The trouble was drawing him from different angles, because he only looked right from that one angle. He was in whole issues… he was in the Christmas issue with Commander Steel [All-Star Squadron #9]. THOMAS: It just so happened that in December of 1941, a couple of weeks after Pearl Harbor, he came over and spent a couple of weeks in the White House, so therefore it just worked out [to put Churchill in that issue]. ORDWAY: That was the fun part of the book. For me the biggest challenge was, it was my very first fulltime project, and there was a lot of pressure. I felt the pressure of it. Rich… honestly, Rich, he was doing his pages, and then he was done with them. You know, he was finished. And I would get these [pages] and Roy would write notes on them like, “This is incorrect” and whatever. The best one is still in the preview of All-Star Squadron [the preview was included with Justice League of America #193]— THOMAS: That is the best. ORDWAY: —where [Rich] had Robotman walking past… was it the memorial to Iwo Jima in Washington? And I was, like, “Wait… this is 1941!” THOMAS: Iwo Jima is still four years in the future. ORDWAY: That was the big thing—erase that and to figure out, do we put something there…? THOMAS: I think we put the Washington Monument

New Artist Detail from ASS #6 (Feb. 1982), the issue featuring the debut of new penciler Adrian Gonzales (inked by Ordway). TM & © DC Comics.

there, because that was pretty simple. But I was just as bad. In the same scene I write a caption about how he was braced against the wind! Well, Robotman wasn’t going to feel the wind, with or without a coat! I look back on it now thinking, “How could I write that?” In my own way I was as bad as Rich. ORDWAY: The funny thing, the biggest challenge of it, was, being an inker on the book, was the fact that John Costanza, I think he did his best lettering the first several issues, but he couldn’t find enough room for balloons. So when the pages would come to me, I can remember crowd scenes of these characters where there would be a balloon covering, say, Liberty Belle’s head, because there was just literally no room to put that, he had that packed up tight. So I would kind of take it upon myself, if I wasn’t asked to do it, I would always try to adjust characters downwards so they weren’t cut off. THOMAS: And I just thought John Costanza was doing a great job! [laughter] Thing is, I got spoiled in the later years at Marvel with Sam Rosen and Joe Rosen, who lettered smaller than almost anything, and I would try to get those guys. ORDWAY: I think they lettered narrower, that was the thing. Whatever it was, John, his type font that he would hand-letter, would come out a little wider, so he wanted to put more lines. That was always funny. The quandary of me being the new kid going, “If I ink this exactly as it is, it’s going to look really stupid because someone’s got a balloon covering up everything but their lips or something.” THOMAS: It’s my fault, really. I wasn’t the editor of that until after you came on [as penciler]. ORDWAY: The other thing—this is the weirdest one you could ever imagine—you had to admit this, years later. I remember there was always a struggle because Rich and I would have loved to be doing the [earlier] covers of the books [Joe Kubert illustrated the covers of All-Star Squadron #2 and 7–18], but Joe Kubert did and you can’t complain about Kubert… he’s Joe Kubert. THOMAS: He’s my favorite artist, but I would have rather had you guys. ORDWAY: We were the guys doing the book. I always thought you should sell what’s inside the book. And Len, he was really a stickler for that. I actually drew a couple of covers in the hopes that we could get the covers away [from Kubert], and they wound up as pinups or whatever. THOMAS: Well, Rich insisted on doing that one cover with Solomon Grundy [All-Star Squadron #3], so the Joe Kubert cover was not used, which he gave to me as a wedding gift. It got used as a pinup and I loaned it to DC for that purpose and it got stolen. ORDWAY: I finally got to ink a cover. It was the Hawkman with the sacrifice on the altar or whatever, issue #6, and it was, “Wow! I finally got to ink a cover!” And then Rich left the book and I’m like, “C’mon!” THOMAS: You ended up getting to ink a few more. ORDWAY: Yeah. It was funny, because Len called me up and said, “Well, Rich left the book.” I’m thinking I’m going to get fired, and he’s like, “I really hope you’ll stay on, because you’re kind of the look of it.

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We’ll get someone else [to pencil it]…” And I was totally expecting to get fired! THOMAS: No, it was obvious from the first issue, or by the time you’d done one or two… ORDWAY: The very first issue of All-Star Squadron, about 12 pages of it, were never ever found. Rich had sent them FedEx—I didn’t even know what FedEx was back then—he sent them FedEx, and they never arrived. THOMAS: Was it the whole 12 pages? ORDWAY: It was about 12… half of the issue that was gone. And I had to ink half of the issue on vellum, which was like thick tracing paper, inking over photocopies of the pencils. Roy would always write notes on the artwork, which was really helpful. The notes would be in the margins. The copier didn’t get any of the notes from the margins, so I inked what I could figure out. But the deadline—they were expecting it two weeks before, and I’m like, “I never got a package!” So somewhere—in a warehouse somewhere—it would be cool to find those pages. EURY: Your turn for that question, Arvell. What particular challenges did you have while drawing the series? JONES: I think in the very beginning, although I thought I was familiar with all the costumes and characters because I was a fan and everything, I would get some of the costume details wrong. I didn’t understand about [the Golden Age] Superman’s “S”—there was a slight difference in it. And I was drawing so quickly at times I gave Liberty Belle panties on the outside [laughter]. I remember that conversation

[with Roy], like, “Why are you doing that?” “I know, but I figured the inker could fix it…” “No! You don’t do that!” THOMAS: [playfully] Ah, you’re makin’ that up… JONES: No, I wasn’t— he was the editor by then! I promised to do better! [laughter] THOMAS: I do remember telling you to go back and forth between tight pants and these jodhpurs that she actually wore in the original 1940s comics. It was kind of an unattractivelooking thing because they flare out at the side, they don’t look that great. Not a great-looking character. JONES: She had a few issues. And then there were likenesses. [to Roy] You were asking for different 1940s actresses. I remember now… It was Veronica Lake as Libby Belle, Barbara Stanwyck or Lana Turner as Firebrand—it didn’t matter. I couldn’t capture a likeness to save my life back then. [laughter] THOMAS: Did you do the one where I had that, I think somebody else dialogued it [All-Star Squadron #44, dialogued by Paul Kupperberg], where they had the party where someone was going as Groucho Marx and this and that. The other part was that, I think there were four of the Squadron, two men and two women, like Tarantula and Firebrand [and Hourman and Phantom Lady], and a couple of others, but they were going to the party in each other’s costume. I kept thinking, “Is this Firebrand as Phantom Lady or Phantom Lady as Firebrand…?” JONES: I remember that getting me. I was drawing them the way they looked and then going, “Wait a minute! Firebrand has different hair, black hair,

Kubert Covers (left) All-Star Squadron #13’s (Sept. 1982) Joe Kubert cover featured a photo montage background. (right) Issue #15, part of a crossover with the JLA and JSA. TM & © DC Comics.

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The Cost of Victory Jaw-dropping original art (courtesy of Heritage) for the cover of issue #20 (Apr. 1983), by Jerry Ordway. TM & © DC Comics.

ORDWAY: I drew a thing called Red Menace [a 2006–2007 miniseries from DC’s Wildstorm imprint], but it had Joseph McCarthy and Roy Cohn—real characters—and I was given specific instructions from DC legal, because I had said, “What do I do here?” [I was told] you can’t base any drawing on any single picture, so the idea was you’d have to kind of come close. You could look at 25 pictures of an actor, but you had to come up with almost a caricature based on that. You couldn’t say, “Well, here’s a great picture. I’m going to draw it just like that.” So I took a sketchbook and started drawing Joseph McCarthy and came up with a Joseph McCarthy type that still evoked him. EURY: Roy, was All-Star Squadron the first regular series that really made use of retroactive continuity? THOMAS: Yeah. I didn’t use as much in The Invaders for Marvel. There was some—the Japanese-American internment camps were in there at the right time [Invaders #26–28]. I started that one out, too, with Churchill coming to the United States in December of ’41. It’s almost like you’re doing Earth-Two, Earth-Three… I’d just go to another company. It wasn’t the same story—it was covering the same events with a whole new story. In there I had the Invaders rescue Churchill, but in the other one [All-Star Squadron #7] I had an android or robot imitation of Churchill. ORDWAY: Plastic Man stood in for him, took the bullet, or whatever. You could have done The Mighty Crusaders, right, Roy? THOMAS: I could have done that. The Archie people came to me a jerry ordway couple of years ago, and I said, “Well, © Luigi Novi / Wikimedia. I’m not really that interested in writing those characters, but if you ever do a story set in World War II, I’ll do it.” That could be kind of interesting. Let’s see, I could have Churchill come to the United States… [laughter] ORDWAY: That would have been for their Red Circle stuff…? [Editor’s note: Archie’s Red Circle/Dark Circle imprint will be covered next month in BACK ISSUE #107.] THOMAS: It might have been, I don’t know, otherwise I could have done something in the present, but I was trying to get something I really wanted to do. Everyone has his own theme, and by that time, you were starting out new, but by the time I did All-Star Squadron I’d been in the field for 15 years. I’d even written a couple dozen issues of a World War II comic, so I was really looking for something different to do and I wasn’t as interested as I should have been for my own sake, I suppose, in the commerciality and things of that nature. Except to the point of survival, it just did not interest me. ORDWAY: But you know, if you were thinking about that, then [All-Star Squadron] wouldn’t have been what it was. THOMAS: Whatever it was. ORDWAY: I went through that with [The Power of] Shazam. There was always a bit of a bubble, but I was able to do Tawky Tawny and stuff that I wouldn’t have been able to do if I had thought, “Oh, it’s got to be a top seller.” I was given that freedom, and I think that you benefit as a reader from those stories because you followed your heart. But I think that’s the thing I was doing on All-Star Squadron. I understood the crowd scenes—I hear you on that, the crowd scenes are tough, especially when you have fights, because you have to come up with something good for each guy and you almost have to match them up in some way that made sense. So it wasn’t Liberty Belle fighting some molten lava guy or something weird. But the thing I always went back to was the fact that Roy loved this stuff. He wasn’t doing this to torture any of us— THOMAS: That was just a by-product! [laughter]

and I drew her with light hair. Well, maybe they’ll catch it…” ORDWAY: That’s what the inker gets to do! EURY: Were there ever any legal concerns from DC over likenesses? They used to be kind of gun shy about having real people in their books. THOMAS: They never gave us any that I know of. ORDWAY: You know, I think the likeness issue arose… Roy, did you use Einstein or something? THOMAS: Oh, yeah, later on, in the Young All-Stars [Young All-Stars #21–25, a reworking of the Superman vs. Wonder Woman All-New Collectors’ Edition since postCrisis, Superman and Wonder Woman no longer existed during WWII]. They had to turn him backwards on the cover to show his back, so you can’t see him. ORDWAY: His likeness is an intellectual property. To go back to Winston Churchill, I’m lucky, the only picture I had was a tiny picture. If you didn’t have that, you would be out of luck. JONES: For me it was just Hitler, Churchill, President Franklin Roosevelt… Hitler was easy—just add the little mustache. I couldn’t draw Winston Churchill at all, but my Roosevelt was okay.

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ORDWAY: —that was just the extra, added bonus. I always respected that and I think that’s what shows through with the longevity. I’m still getting copies [of All-Star Squadron] to sign and I’m doing sketches with these characters. That’s what Roy imbued, like a little special personality in those characters that makes them ones that you remember 30 years later. That’s kind of cool—that’s a special thing. JONES: For me, I was just a fanboy doing this stuff. And so while Roy was pulling together all these characters, I had to go and raid my dad’s comic-book collection, because he had some comics! He had some Captain Marvels, some C. C. Beck Captain Marvels. And then I looked up and said, “Wait a minute! This Uncle Sam guy, where did he come from?” You know, there were characters that I thought were published at Timely [early Marvel] or something—I didn’t know where they were coming from! THOMAS: You know, I never liked Uncle Sam as a comic-book character. He wasn’t around by the time I was reading comics. Somehow, since he wasn’t really a comic character, he was just a poster turned into a comic character. [The Uncle Sam issue] was the only issue of Secret Origins that I didn’t do—well, Dr. Occult [Secret Origins #17], I had Nelson Bridwell do because Nelson really wanted to do it and he knew that stuff and needed some work. Len [Wein] wanted to do Uncle Sam and I said, “You. Can. Have. It.” [laughter] He did a good job with it, with Murphy Anderson [Secret Origins #19]. But you know, Uncle Sam didn’t interest me too much. But if you’re going to have all these Quality characters, if I, every time I even look at the book I keep thinking, “Would it have been a better idea not to use the Quality characters?” Which I mostly got into because I needed the one or two women like Phantom Lady that I didn’t do too much with. ORDWAY: A lot of fans liked Phantom Lady! [laughter] JONES: She was fun to draw! THOMAS: She was at her best postwar. And Plastic Man. But somehow, I don’t know why, after I used him in those couple of stories, I dropped [Plas]. Even though I think he’s one of the great characters. And, of course, they wouldn’t let me use the Fawcett characters, because they didn’t own them and that time, and they had to pay money if they used them. ORDWAY: We had talked about it and you wanted to use Captain Marvel. But I always thought, even back then, that he had the greatest, and simplest, perfect costume. And the concept, always as a kid I liked it. [I read it] from the reprints, the tabloid size and such, and also the relaunch. But I remember, the rule was, Fawcett still owned rights to it or something so DC would have to pay a use fee for the characters and they wouldn’t pay it if he was only going to be in a couple of panels, but it cost them like a couple hundred bucks to use him in an issue, so it was only justified. THOMAS: I had to save him to make it a major story. ORDWAY: I was already gone by that point, but I did get to ink the cover [All-Star Squadron #36]. JONES: The issue that we did with Captain Marvel, and Liberty Belle and Johnny on their honeymoon [All-Star Squadron #52]… I remember looking at the script and going, “Wait a minute, you’re gonna have this little kid [Billy Batson, Cap’s alter ego] outside the honeymoon suite of Johnny Quick and Liberty Belle all night!” The things that little boy must have heard! [laughter] I mean, Johnny’s so quick! [laughter] EURY: All-Star Squadron gave birth to Infinity, Inc., a spinoff, then later was continued as Young All-Stars. Roy, did you envision the Infinity, Inc. spinoff when the characters first appeared, or did that grow out of the series? THOMAS: No, it came out of a whole other idea. My wife [Dann Thomas] and I had made up—I guess it was mostly me—I had made up this idea for a time-related group, but I forget exactly the details right now, but it was a whole different group. I don’t know if it was Time Busters, or Time something. [Editor’s note: In Alter Ego #9, an article by Roy Thomas cited the concept’s name as Time Titans, with a later Marvel concept he called Time Busters.] Whatever it was. So DC would fly me in once and a while

like they did as they did you [to Jerry]. They flew us in, put us up at a nice hotel. Dann and I came up to do this and we had an extra day before we went in, so we went out to the Statue of Liberty. I’d never been out there since the one time I was out there on a senior trip from Missouri back in high school, so we thought we’d go—she hadn’t seen it. You can only look at a statue of a woman with a torch for a couple of minutes—you know, “Send us your tired, etc., etc.”—so I don’t know why, but we started talking about this idea of the sons and daughters of the characters, just joking around, and at least two or three of the characters were made up right there by the time we got in. Then later we added more, and, of course, Jerry and Mike Machlan added more, and we changed the group around several times. It took a while to evolve, but by the time I went in I may have pitched the original Time idea, the only thing we had, I wanted, I had a title, I wanted to call it The Centurions, but they were coming up with a TV cartoon about that time called that. EURY: Didn’t DC publish a Centurions tie-in? I think it was a toy license. ORDWAY: Yeah, I remember there was a toy license. [Editor’s note: Centurions was a 1986 syndicated sci-fi animated TV series with a toy tie-in and DC’s miniseries tie-in.] THOMAS: Then Dann made up “Infinity, Inc.” I was never totally sold on the name, but it was the best thing we came up with. The good point was that Jerry Ordway and Mike Machlan would draw it. The bad point was, that meant they were going to be off All-Star Squadron. They got it off to a good start. ORDWAY: I remember Mike and I, after we had started doing the designs for characters, the group was a little fluid. Fury was going to be in it and there were specific ones that were added after, even onto the cover of the first one.

To Infinity and Beyond Meet Infinity, Inc.! Cover to All-Star Squadron #25 (Sept. 1983) by Jerry Ordway, who penciled the Infinity, Inc. book for writer Roy Thomas. TM & © DC Comics.

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The World’s Wickedest Villain Adolf Hitler, from ASS #36 (Aug. 1984). By Roy Thomas, Rich Buckler, and Richard Howell. Original art courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

THOMAS: The Silver Scarab, wasn’t he a late addition? ORDWAY: He was added in, and also, originally the female Wildcat was going to be part of that. THOMAS: La Garra, she was called. ORDWAY: Mr. Bones is part of that original sketch group, too. We were flown in and Roy and Dann were flown in at the same time. We went and met with Julie Schwartz, and it was originally going to be that we were going to introduce Infinity, Inc. in DC Comics Presents. It was going to be a Superman story and introduce Infinity, Inc. as kind of a teaser or whatever. And then something went wrong with that. THOMAS: Julie couldn’t fit it in in that schedule. Something technical. ORDWAY: He had his books scheduled for a year or so. THOMAS: He probably wouldn’t have done it anyway! He knew I didn’t toe the line too well. [laughter] ORDWAY: That was I think the really clever thing was to have them go back, have that time-travel thing, which was kind of interesting. That came out of the fact that it didn’t wind up being a DC Comics Presents issue team-up with Superman as the preview. So I wondered, with Infinity, Inc., Roy, where did you get the idea for the time travel? THOMAS: Probably necessity! ORDWAY: It hurts your brain to think about it when it happened in All-Star Squadron… Infinity, Inc. first shows up in All-Star Squadron #24 [Brainwave, Jr.] and 25 [balance of the group]. Then I think the end of issue #2 [of Infinity, Inc.] that the actual time-travel part in the present day happens, and they go off and it’s like they’re back in issue #3. And it’s like, “Wow, time travel can be complicated.” I just remember Brainwave or something had taken them back, and it was the story we had already done. THOMAS: You remember more of it than I do! Of course, you had to draw it—you spent more time with it. The time-travel thing might have been because, if we weren’t going to introduce them in DC Comics Presents—if we were going to introduce them in All-Star Squadron—it kind of has to be a time-travel story. Either the All-Star Squadron has to come to the 1980s or the other group had to go back there. It wasn’t the ideal way to do it, but it worked out okay.

ORDWAY: And it was a clever way of getting us to do the intro in the regular book. EURY: Okay, it’s time to talk about Crisis. THOMAS: Wash your mouth out with soap! [laughter] EURY: [laughs] For you, Roy, I guess that is a bad word since Crisis pulled the rug out from under you and All-Star Squadron since it got rid of Earth-Two. Who told you what was going to happen and how did they break the news to you? Did they involve you in any editorial meetings? ORDWAY: Did they send you flowers? [laughter] THOMAS: I don’t remember exactly, except I knew Marv [Wolfman] and Len were involved. I think originally Len was more involved than he actually became as it went along. But by that time I sort of saw the handwriting on the wall. I could see they wanted to do this. I remember distinctly being told that, “We won’t”—and I always assumed they were lying— “We won’t do this if you really object to it.” Like I’m going to believe that type of thing. So if I’d said, “Okay, don’t do it,” it’d have gone away? So I decided the only way to do it was cooperate, so I cooperated a lot and I wrote a lot of notes. We sort of worked out a deal that in All-Star Squadron, I’d still be able to do Superman, Batman, Green Lantern in there, Wonder Woman and so forth, and that was fine. And they said, “That’s fine, you can still go ahead and use them, it’ll be like some kind of little time warp or side universe.” And then, in 1985, I go to London. By coincidence as much as anything, there’s a convention there that Marv Wolfman is at. I go jogging in Hyde Park and I get hit by a motorbike while I’m crossing the only road in the park. A motorbike whams into me [slaps hands together] and I spend two days in the hospital. I looked like Two-Face with half my face torn away. I’m limping along, I looked like Quasimodo coming in there. Marv comes up and says, “I was in Madame Tussaud’s yesterday and I didn’t see anything looked as bad as you.” [laughter] He tells me DC has decided I won’t be able to use them. It’s not so much a lie—it’s a truth, like they said in Watergate times, it’s “no longer operative” or whatever. So that kind of made me sort of depressed about the whole situation. I cooperated as best I could, but I never have had good feelings about DC Comics since then, because I felt they lied to me several different times and they never seemed to notice. ORDWAY: I think some of it was fluid. I started doing finishes on Crisis with issue #5, at the same time I was going to do a Huntress miniseries— it was going to be my writing debut. And I was working on a plot and I had come up with this idea and I shared it with Pat [Bastienne] and Dick [Giordano] and it was going to happen.

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Then I think around issue #7 of Crisis, [Pat] called me up and she said, “You know, the idea that you have isn’t going to work, because it has to be a new Huntress.” And that was the first I remember thinking, like, “Why are you getting rid of Earth-Two?” The excuse was, they said that it was too confusing to have multiple Earths, and I was like, “This has been around for how many years that they’ve done multiple Earths?” THOMAS: It sold a lot of comic books! ORDWAY: It’s, like, their great big event, and when did it get confusing? THOMAS: When it was confusing was when you had writers or editors who didn’t know what they were doing. I certainly don’t claim that we never made mistakes or errors in judgment or anything like that. However, what happened is, a lot of people would just dip into Earth-Two for one story… they were the ones who were confused and messing it up. If you had one person [watching over Earth-Two continuity, it would be easier to police], so I became, like, the Earth-Two editor. It didn’t make any difference. At that stage a couple of people decided that it would be too confusing. I didn’t get a vote. I wasn’t there for that. ORDWAY: But then, artistically, the [Earth-Two] characters had different costumes. The only one that would be confusing was possibly Batman, but Batman they had kind of killed off. [Editor’s note: The Earth-Two Batman had been killed in Adventure Comics #462. See this issue’s lead article for more on that story.] THOMAS: I never used Batman in All-Star Squadron much anyway, and I could have done without him. If they’d said, “Just don’t bring Superman in much,” or even Wonder Woman, I would’ve gone along. ORDWAY: I always felt the Earth-Two Superman was distinctive, and whenever I drew him, I tried to make him distinctive. But I think Wally Wood even did that earlier in that incarnation. He’s a distinctive version, if you saw him—and again, that’s the problem, that a lot of time artists wouldn’t look up any reference or they would just draw a regular Superman of whatever and no one would catch it. So that’s the only confusion that there could be. [Multiple Earths] still is a great concept and we’ve seen it used on TV shows. EURY: In fact, it’s come back into comics, so that’s got to be a little frustrating. THOMAS: So, you had to mention it didn’t you? [laughter] One feels vindicated, but at the same time it’s too late, so what’s the use? I will say I think that Marv and George Pérez did a really nice job with the series. It’s a good-looking series, if you want to do kind type of thing. I just don’t think it should have been done. EURY: Let’s open up the floor to some questions… AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: If I were a Golden Age hero, I would join the “J-S-A,” but not the “A-S-S.” [laughter] Was there any pushback on the title? THOMAS: We just never used [the abbreviation]. There was always confusion about the name of All-Star Comics in the sense that, it was written as two words, “All Star,” on the cover, but everywhere else it was always hyphenated. They changed it when they made [the book] All-Star Western, I discovered only recently, but it [the title All-Star Comics] was always hyphenated, except that they didn’t put the hyphen on the cover. So when we were working out the design I kind of had to fight Len on this. I said, “I want that hyphen to be on the cover. It’s part of the name.” And I always objected when, once in a while, someone would mention the book and they’d leave it [the hyphen] off and I wanted to get it in there. And I didn’t do that because of the abbreviation. I just did it because I felt it should be because that was the way it had been.

But there was that problem—a guy [in All-Star Squadron] made a joke once that it’s a nice name if you don’t abbreviate it. We could have gotten around it, so I remember back in the ’50s, late ’40s, they’d call the JSA the “All-Stars,” even on the covers, so I figured that was good enough. ORDWAY: Do we know who did the logo for All-Star Squadron? Because really it’s a great logo. THOMAS: I thought maybe it was [Gaspar] Saladino, but I don’t know. [Editor’s note: Per a 11/25/17 confirmation from Todd Klein, the All-Star Squadron logo was indeed created by Gaspar Saladino.] The only change I got made after issue #2 was, one of the “S”s on there, the one on Squadron, looked too much like a backwards Z, it didn’t look like an S. And Len was looking for a letters page and I said, obviously on a book called All-Star Squadron the title of the letters page should be “All-Star Squadroom,” but he left it “All-Star Comments,” the early ’70s thing. Which I changed as soon as I became editor. It was just little stuff. We didn’t really have that many jokes. I mean, someone would notice about the abbreviation and that would be it, because we didn’t

By Land and Sea Arvell Jones’ debut on All-Star Squadron, from issue #37 (Sept. 1984). Story by Thomas, inks by Howell. TM & © DC Comics.

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Take Two, Times Two From a gallery in ASS #50 (Oct. 1985): (top) A revised version of the ASS preview cover originally seen in JLA #193. (bottom) A revised version of the cover of ASS #1. TM & © DC Comics.

do anything with it except once because, you know that the readers are going to be thinking that. So you mention it one time then, you know, you just let it go and that’s it. ORDWAY: Whenever I refer to it [the All-Star Squadron name]—I’ve written it in so many emails to different people and fans and back and forth—I always type it out. You start with the abbreviation and then, there’s no way around this. [laughter] THOMAS: Just one of those unhappy things. AUDIENCE MEMBER #2: Before the retconning that Crisis required, did you have stories planned out for All-Star Squadron a couple of years out? What would have happened, where would the characters have gone? THOMAS: I never thought that far ahead, you know. Sometimes I would probably have had some vague ideas in some books and sometimes internally, I but I can’t honestly remember having a lot of stories that were just waiting to be told. They’d have been there instead of those origins I put in at the end if it had gone on. [Editor’s note: All-Star Squadron #61–63, 65, and 66 featured origins of individual members instead of group stories.] ORDWAY: The industry wasn’t set up like that at the time. You could have long-term goals, but it was really make it up as you go along. THOMAS: After that time, I just reacted in horror to the way comics are done. I just didn’t like it. I remember when I was supposed to at one stage [in the late 1980s] do something for Denny O’Neil, a Batman Elseworlds, and it was like he wanted to know every single detail in advance. His motto was, “I don’t want any surprises.” “Denny,” I said, “when you’re writing along, there are surprises.” Sure, you have to know where you’re going or you’ll write yourself into a corner sometimes, but sometimes even that can work out. But I said I like the surprises. I want to have some spontaneity. I would think Denny, who had worked at Marvel, would realize that the most successful comic company in the last couple of decades before had not been DC but Marvel, and Marvel had almost always done it that way until the last couple of decades. Nowadays they have, I guess, a committee meeting, not just for a major project that understandably involves a bunch of writers and a bunch of artists, but even just for one character. They’ve gotta know exactly where it’s going. That kind of thing would just bore me to tears. ORDWAY: What you’re saying too is funny, because in the last maybe ten years, they would say pitch something if you didn’t have work. Or you’d try to pitch an idea that everybody wanted, they’d say pitch it, but they never wanted a Hollywood tag line, like, “X-Files meets something.” So I would wind up writing out things and I’d say, “You know, I’m writing on spec.” Ultimately you’re writing something for someone to turn down, because maybe they don’t even care. THOMAS: Keeping you busy. ORDWAY: It’s keeping you busy. So I have, like, a hard drive full of ideas that are too well thought out. THOMAS: ’Cause they’re getting paid while they’re sitting there listening to you. ORDWAY: Occasionally you’d see those ideas pop up, and you go, “Is that coincidental?” Well maybe. THOMAS: I thought Mort Weisinger died! [laughter] AUDIENCE MEMBER #3: What was your reaction was to things like the Golden Age series that they did where it was set in the ’50s? [Editor’s note: The Golden Age, written by James Robinson and illustrated by Paul Smith, was a four-issue Elseworlds miniseries exploring the postwar adventures of DC’s Golden Age pantheon.] THOMAS: Well, I thought it’s as legitimate an approach as my own. It wasn’t anything I wanted to write or read particularly, but it was well done in its own way. In some ways it was trying to be a little more realistic and get into a little grimmer world. I managed to keep World War II fairly light and frothy, I always think. [laughter] Now, on the other hand, I could see going back to it now if somebody said do a darker version, because, after all, World War II was dark. I could see doing it that way. There’s a lot of different approaches. My particular approach just came out of my work at Marvel and The Invaders in particular and The Avengers, things like this. Somebody else’s approach would come out of the comics that they liked or the things they wanted to bring to comics. EURY: Roy, speaking of other writers’ approaches, have writers who have used characters you created consulted you about continuity? THOMAS: The only discussion I ever had about any of this continuity was, one time, I guess Neil Gaiman must have called me, back before he was a real big deal when he was just in the early days of Sandman, and he was telling me or I had just learned that he had killed off the Fury character in Sandman, and he said he hoped I didn’t mind. I said, “No, no, I don’t mind at all, because you didn’t kill her at all, that was a clone.” [laughter] First and last time I ever talked to Neil Gaiman. He never called back. [laughter] And if I became an editor at DC Comics, 15 minutes later Fury would be back. Because it’s all just lines on paper, you know. I was noted for being a continuity freak. This was just my own particular viewpoint, maybe it’s not the way people feel now, but my idea was, if you didn’t have a world that was fairly consistent, then how could I care about it? I remembered when I was a kid and I was really kind of confused and offended when Superman would fight some Martians in one month, and in the next month

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No One Left Out There were no strangers from the DC Golden Age pantheon to Roy Thomas, who even brought little-known Western characters like Super-Chief and the Trigger Twins into All-Star Squadron’s pages. Cover to #55 (Mar. 1986) by Arvell Jones and Tony DeZuniga. TM & © DC Comics.

even Batman might fight some Martians, and they were totally different Martians! I just couldn’t take it seriously, so I decided that I was going to make that world consistent. This is the thing Marvel brought to it, Stan particularly, obviously with the help of Jack and others. And Marvel had stumbled into it by the happy accident of there being only one real writer. I mean, Larry Lieber was there, but Stan was over everything, was writing so much of it. As a result it had a certain consistency to the extent that he could remember what he did from day to day. And if he could get Jack to pay attention to the page he’d drawn before when he drew the next one instead of changing the costumes and things. So I was just trying to do this. I know Jerry was probably driven crazy sometimes by some of the costume stuff and everything, but that was just the way I was. ORDWAY: You see, I respected that, though. It’s not slamming anybody… but there always was a lot of laziness in the industry, and I felt that not being able to follow a continuity is laziness. Like, if I was hired to write Wonder Woman, I would read a lot of Wonder Woman comics. You could decide what you want to keep. You don’t

necessarily make it that everything didn’t happen. That’s kind of cheesy. THOMAS: One of the lines I hate the most, whether it’s in comics, movies, or any other thing, is when they say, “Forget everything you thought you knew about it.” There are one or two writer/artists in the comics field in particular who just feel they have to show that everybody else before them on the strip was an idiot. It just isn’t true. Even the person who is a genius is going to make some mistakes. AUDIENCE MEMBER #4: Not to mix the pot more, but all those wonderful characters you created, all of them were fleshed out and all in all very few of them have really been revisited since the end of the old series. Is there any particular reason why they are so neglected? Amazing-Man is an amazing character, but those guys have never been touched, outside of Liberty Belle and Johnny Quick. JONES: Amazing-Man and the Tarantula had two of the most modern-looking and coolest costumes in the series. I think both of them would have done well in a limited series, if not a regular one. DC has such a vast collection of heroes. It’s a shame that they may never get around to exploring these guys.

Metal Men Robotman’s got a grip on Mekanique on the cover of ASS #58 (June 1986), by Jones and DeZuniga. Original art courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

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More to Come Roy’s text page from the last issue of All-Star Squadron, #67, setting the stage for his new Young All-Stars book. TM & © DC Comics.

THOMAS: Well, part of it’s because they’re World War II characters and they’d be kind of old now. But they’ve got Jessie Quick. ORDWAY: Right, in the last incarnation of JSA, but yeah, they haven’t. Maybe they’ll revisit it once they reinstitute Earth-Two. The thing that we all know, any of us who’ve worked in comics, is that we don’t—even if we have a share in those characters—we don’t control them. If no one will let you write them, you have no control over them. So with Infinity, Inc., Roy and I both had problems with that, we had the desire to do more, but it’s not in your control unless somebody says you can write it and do what you know is right for the characters. We almost did a thing a couple of years ago, and it became such a stupid… It was like, “We want you to do these characters, but here’s how we want you to do them.” And that happens. THOMAS: I was real past that by that point. ORDWAY: I still felt badly it didn’t happen. THOMAS: I do, too. I don’t only feel bad, I feel angry every time I think about it. ORDWAY: It ultimately wouldn’t have been fun, either.

THOMAS: The guy who finally kissed me off the project came up to me at a convention later and caught me off guard. I was there and he shook my hand and as he walked away and I realized—I forgot who he was or I wouldn’t have talked to him! [laughter] I don’t want to be bearing hard grudges, but what got me was, they said they didn’t like certain things, they thought it might be too much like such and such, but all these superhero stories have a lot in common. I’d added a lot of different details and was willing to make some changes as long as it makes it the same story. And that just became an excuse to kiss me off and kill the whole project. It is about the funny animals on paper, but it’s also about people’s lives and careers, the work they put into it. And that’s why you get kind of jittery. ORDWAY: In comics, the funny thing is, everyone’s got their own enemies. It all does come down to, you want to do stuff that’s fun. You know it’s work but you also want to have fun. And if you want to hire somebody, you know what they’re going to produce and presumably that’s why you want them to do it. And that happens a lot, it really does. “We want you to do this, but here’s what we want you to do.” I wrote an Infinity, Inc. two-part thing for [DC’s] Convergence and they said, “Oh, we don’t really know, come up with something.” So I came up with something and then it’s like, “Oh, here’s what we want,” and then you rewrite it. By the point you’re done with it, you did the best you could but there’s no joy in it. It becomes just another failed thing that could have been better. THOMAS: It looked nice. I haven’t read it but… you can still draw. ORDWAY: But it’s a reappearance of those characters. It’s always tough. THOMAS: But I’m just really glad I had a chance to work on all those issues with these two talented guys, plus Rich Buckler and several others. Stan asked me once, “What was the comic you liked the best out of all the comics you ever wrote?” I said, “All-Star Squadron.” He didn’t know what that was! ORDWAY: “Did we publish that?” [laughter] THOMAS: He thought it’d be Conan the Barbarian or The Invaders or finally get down to The Avengers or something. You know, we’ve all got our passions and so forth. Jerry had, we both had it for Captain Marvel. So we just did the best we could. I just feel lucky to have been able to do All-Star Squadron, even if 60 or so issues wasn’t enough and I would have liked a few hundred more. The fact remains that I’m happy I had what I had. I still have people who come up to me at conventions anywhere across the country and tell me about liking this book, or someone who was aged just seven or eight or ten who certainly had never heard of Johnny Quick before, or I’ve had a couple of people who became history teachers at the high school or college level say, “Probably the first thing that got me started was All-Star Squadron.” That seems kind of crazy, but you know, it’s flattering. It’s all you could ask for, to influence people in a good way. [Frederic] Wertham was right, in a way— comics can influence people. For good as well as evil. JONES: That’s very interesting because, I just started doing conventions again, but it seems like every convention there’s at least one person who says, “I became a history teacher because of All-Star Squadron.” THOMAS: You wonder what he’s teaching his class! [laughter] Special thanks to Shelton Drum and Andy Mansell of HeroesCon, to John S. Eury for the loan of All-Star Squadron comics, to Brian Martin for his recording and transcription of this interview, and to Roy, Jerry, and Arvell for their time and recollections.

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arvell jones Tenebrae.

Heroes United Courtesy of Arvell Jones, a 2016 All-Star Squadron commission penciled by Jones, inked by Mike Gustovich, and colored by Rob Shalda. Characters TM & © DC Comics.

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by J o

Roll Call That’s a whole lotta heroes in Roy Thomas’ All-Star Squadron #31 (Mar. 1984). Penciled by Rick Hoberg and inked by Mike Machlan. TM & © DC Comics.

rick hoberg Facebook.

Rick Hoberg took over as the new penciler of All-Star Squadron shortly after Jerry Ordway’s run. A veteran designer and storyboard artist from such animated shows as Godzilla, Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, The Incredible Hulk, and G.I. Joe, Hoberg had previously collaborated with Roy Thomas at Marvel Comics on such titles as Star Wars and What If? Hoberg drew many of the seminal moments of All-Star Squadron, such as the death of Dian Belmont in #18, the origin of Amazing-Man in #23, the first meeting of the All-Stars’ full membership in #31, the origin of the Freedom Fighters and the death of the Red Bee in #32–35, and the Detroit race riot story in #38–39. He took the time to chat with me about his All-Star days via email in November 2017. – John Trumbull JOHN TRUMBULL: You’d done some fill-in work on All-Star before you became the regular penciler, inking Adrian Gonzales on issues #16–18 and penciling Amazing-Man’s six-page origin sequence in issue #23. How did these assignments come about? RICK HOBERG: Roy [Thomas] had been doing his best to get me in at DC when he went over. I was continuing to work in animation for companies like Marvel and Ruby Spears, but really wanted to get back into comics again. The break finally came through Len Wein, who was editing Brave and the Bold, gave me some work inking B&B over Ross Andru [issue #199’s team-up with Batman and the Spectre], which came out really well. [Author’s note: Hoberg also inked B&B #198, a Batman/ Karate Kid team-up, over Chuck Patton.] After a few jobs, I was handed the inking work over that trio of stories by Adrian Gonzales on All-Star Squadron. [DC executive editor] Dick Giordano really took a shine to my work and had me penciling in no time, including JLA Annual #1, the Amazing-Man backup, and issues of Captain Carrot [assorted stories in #15–20]. TRUMBULL: How did you get the regular assignment for All-Star Squadron? HOBERG: Roy had been leading up to it with the Amazing-Man backup. He was planning on launching

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h n Tr u m b u l l

Infinity, Inc. with Jerry and wanted me to become the penciler on All-Star. TRUMBULL: According to the bio you wrote in issue #32, you had a pretty steady career in animation going when you left the field to return to comics. What prompted you to make the switch? HOBERG: Not so much a switch as I had been doing extra work in comics while still doing animation work. I loved both, but animation was much more stable and comics could never pay a comparable wage at that time. It still can’t, unless you have some sort of star status in the medium. Anytime that work ran out in comics, I could return to the animation work. TRUMBULL: Did your animation and comics jobs overlap at all? Did that cause you any difficulties? HOBERG: Yes, there were overlaps, and they certainly caused difficulties like sleep deprivation, but seldom deadline problems, since I tried to balance the work. Still, it is the art life to take as much work as one can handle. You never know which job might be your last. TRUMBULL: All-Star Squadron #31, your first issue as the regular penciler, featured a staggering 61(!) different superheroes, including two double-page spreads. Did you know this was coming beforehand? Were you tempted to quit right then and there? HOBERG: No, I loved the opportunity to be the first to draw the initial meeting of all these classic heroes. It has become a signature piece of mine and the original art for it sold immediately after publication to a high roller who paid a ridiculous price at the time. I have also recreated the entire four pages for a couple of collectors as well. These big groupings of superhero teams were a lot of fun for me. TRUMBULL: By the time you joined All-Star Squadron on a regular basis, Roy Thomas was the editor as well as the writer of the book. Did that ever cause any difficulties between you two? HOBERG: No, I thoroughly enjoyed working with and for Roy every time I had the opportunity. I don’t even recall a deadline problem or design problem that cropped up during my times working with Roy.

Tsunami’s Big Splash (top) The Hoberg-designed troublemaker Tsunami, who debuted in the previous issue. Inks by Jerry Ordway. Original cover art to All-Star Squadron #34 (June 1984) courtesy of Heritage Comics Auctions (www.ha.com). (bottom) Rick’s cover preliminary for the Amazing-Man vs. Real American cover of issue #38 (courtesy of Heritage), and (inset) the Ordway-inked published version. TM & © DC Comics.

TRUMBULL: Did you have any input on the storylines of All-Star Squadron? Did you work full script or Marvel-style? HOBERG: Not really, as Roy had a plan for where he was going and I enjoyed the ride. He gave me pretty much free rein to draw it as I saw fit. Roy’s scripts were detailed plot breakdowns that he dialogued from the pencils, so it was a Marvel-style working relationship. TRUMBULL: You gave Liberty Belle a new, more traditional superhero costume in #31. Was this your idea or Roy’s? HOBERG: Roy wanted to jazz her up a bit. I was fine with it. TRUMBULL: You also designed new characters Tsunami (#33) and the Real American (the KKK-like supervillain from #38–39). Do you have a favorite among the designs you did for the book? HOBERG: Tsunami. I loved the idea of her. A loyal Japanese woman who had a conflict of conscience was intriguing to me. I liked Real American, but [I] couldn’t get the [Marvel Comics] Hate-Monger out of my head, even though he was designed to be a warped version of Captain America. TRUMBULL: You had a few different inkers on All-Star Squadron—Mike Machlan on #31, Bill Collins on your other issues as penciler, and Jerry Ordway on the covers. What did they each bring to the work? Did you have a favorite among them? HOBERG: I don’t want to offend anyone here, but Jerry was, hands down, my favorite inker. He had the skill to draw into the material he inked, adding his own feel to what he was working on without burying the penciler. That’s a rare talent. He still is an ideal choice for my style of work. Mike was also terrific, and suited my work excellently. Bill’s work was a little more mechanical to me, but he certainly drew well. TRUMBULL: Do you have a favorite issue or sequence you drew for All-Star? Which characters were your favorites to draw? HOBERG: The Japanese sub sequence and the issues with Baron Blitzkrieg were just terrific. I also loved the first issue I inked over Adrian Gonzales with Wonder Woman in it. It was a very elegant job and tremendously educational for a young inker like myself. TRUMBULL: What was the biggest challenge in drawing All-Star? The period setting? The large cast of characters? Something else? HOBERG: Getting the reference correct. Ah, to have had the Internet to do reference work back then! Still, Roy was great about supplying reference. There was also a big challenge in giving each character an individuality that could show through. The leads were certainly easier than the supporting cast. TRUMBULL: Why did you ultimately leave All-Star Squadron? HOBERG: It had to do with an inker, who shall remain unidentified here, that was being assigned to ink me. I didn’t like the person’s work and decided to step away rather than concede my fate. TRUMBULL: You briefly came back to All-Star to pencil a six-page sequence of the Atom on Mars in issue #57. How did this come about? HOBERG: Yikes, you will have to show me that job, as I don’t remember it. But I never had hard feelings with Roy over my decision to leave All-Star Squadron, so working for him again was an easy choice. TRUMBULL: Looking back, what is your fondest memory of your time on All-Star Squadron? HOBERG: Working with Roy on a group of characters and a time period we both loved. Rick Hoberg is available for commission work; please go to www.rickhobergstoryartist.com. JOHN TRUMBULL is a writer, artist, actor, stand-up comedian, and regular contributor to the website Atomic Junk Shop (www.atomicjunkshop.com). He is also the co-administrator of the BACK ISSUE Facebook page.

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48 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

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Catto

Fans in the Bronze Age witnessed a perpetual reintroduction and reimagining of comics’ premier super-team, the Justice Society of America. The demand was almost insatiable. Many rabid fans eagerly awaited each new iteration of these fabled characters. Imagine their surprise when, in 1984, DC Comics introduced a new Johnny Thunder. Despite the fact that the original character was instrumental in bringing the JSA together in their first published adventure, this new version would change the character’s gender, tweak the spelling of the character’s name, and eschew the character’s superheroic history. Despite all that, writers Roy and Dann Thomas and artist Dick Giordano created a refreshingly memorable treasure with the miniseries Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt, spotlighting a female private eye who just happens to harness a mystical Incan thunderbolt.

NOT QUITE A HOUSEHOLD NAME

Indeed, the name Jonny Thunder has had a rich history at DC Comics. But the earlier versions were very different from the protagonist Jonni Thunder. The first Jonny Thunder was a hapless everyman, often played for a stooge, who ended up doing heroic things despite his own incompetence. Johnny Thunderbolt, as he was originally (albeit briefly) called, started adventuring in Flash Comics #1 in 1940. Johnny, along with his mystic Thunderbolt, sort of a modern-day genie, were created by John Wentworth and Stan Aschmeier. Soon, Johnny become a member of comics’ first super-team, the Justice Society of America. He was running with the big dogs of the day, and probably doing better than anyone had expected he would. His popularity waned over the years, eventually losing his membership in the JSA, as well as his publishing spot, to his girlfriend, Dinah Lance, better known as the Black Canary. As a focused, competent crimefighter with a Veronica Lake peekaboo hairstyle, Black Canary had more in common with the Jonni Thunder who would debut in the 1980s than the bumbling Johnny Thunder. By the later part of the 1940s, experts predicted that superheroes’ days in comics were numbered and Western stories were the next big opportunity. With that in mind, DC Comics developed a Western hero named Johnny Thunder, debuting in All-American Comics #100. This version of Johnny Thunder was actually the secret identity of John Tane, a mousy schoolteacher. Tane consistently failed to live up to his father’s expectations of what it meant to be a real man and a real cowboy. Thus, he developed a convoluted scheme to impress and fool his father, performing heroic acts as his fictional alter ego. He was often helped by his horse, Black Lightning, and his teenage sidekick, Swift Deer. On one hand, it’s hard to understand the enduring appeal of this feature through the lens of modern times. On the other hand, with the vibrant art of top-notch artists like Gil Kane, Mort Drucker, Sy Barry, and Alex Toth gracing this feature, it makes sense. The Western Johnny Thunder would switch to All-Star Western and stay in the saddle until the end of the ’50s.

LIGHTNING STRIKES: THE CREATION OF JONNI THUNDER, A.K.A. THUNDERBOLT

Make Room, Magnum and Marlowe! Cover to Roy and Dann Thomas’ Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt #1 (Feb. 1985), drawn by Dick Giordano. TM & © DC Comics.

DC’s third Johnny Thunder almost came back as an American Indian. Roy Thomas, the legendary comics writer, reveals that he thought, at one stage, of revamping the character as a Native American. For a character, Roy liked the name Johnny, and he liked the detective characters that had used that name: Jonny Double and Johnny Dynamite in the comics; Johnny Dollar from old time radio. “For some reason,” he says, “Johnny just goes with the idea of a private eye.” It was a suggestion from friend and fellow comic writer Gerry Conway that sparked the notion creating a new Johnny Thunder as a female detective. The two writers would co-plot what would become the Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt miniseries. Although Roy was familiar with other female private eyes like V. I. Warshawski series of detective novels and Ms. Tree from comics, he wanted to try something a little different. This series would employ superhero elements, but was intended to stand alone from the rest of the superhero world. He thought that at some point down the road, there might be an opportunity for a superhero guest-star, but they’d

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Jonni Thunder, Take One Scanned by Ed Catto from DC’s Jonni Thunder #2, Ernie Colón’s original illos for the character, from 1981 and 1983. TM & © DC Comics.

figure that out later. “I wanted a modern girl,” says Roy. Determined to flesh out this contemporary “girl detective” idea, he introduced Jonni to his wife, Dann, who is also a writer with a passion for private eye novels. It was only natural that he collaborate with her for this series. Jonni Thunder dovetailed perfectly with Dann Thomas’ love of hardboiled detective fiction, especially in the vein of classic authors like Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler. Dann channeled that into the series. “Because I grew up in Los Angeles, I was especially fond of Chandler,” says Dann Thomas. “His imagery captured the people, places, and atmosphere with which I was familiar. As with Hammett’s Sam Spade, Chandler’s Marlowe engaged venal and degenerate opponents on behalf of clients only slightly less venal and degenerate. There were few innocents, just gradations of sinners. The contrast with the false beauty and romance of Hollywood hype appealed to me.” But she understood that these authors cast long shadows and had inspired so many other stories and characters. “There were so many Chandler-esque and Hammett-esque private eyes out there,” explains Dann. “This was a chance to do something a little different.” Unlike a traditional superhero adventure, Jonni Thunder crackled with witty, hard-boiled dialogue that would play an important part in the series. Many of the lines are memorable 30 years later. Dann was the one responsible for this dialogue. “Roy and I plotted the story together, but I wrote the first draft of the dialogue,” recalls Dann. “I loved the sparse, precise patter of film noir and the cynical detective genre, and actually made lists of favorite quotes from the best short stories, novels, and radio dramas. Jack Webb’s early Dragnet and Pat Novak for Hire were close to parody, but they over-boiled the genre into humor made even funnier by its seriously flat delivery. The research was great fun and helped me understand the rhythm and wordplay. I also used a slang thesaurus for inspiration. Underworld slang has a dark charm and is wonderfully inventive.” But the unique wrinkle of the series was that Jonni wasn’t just a detective. She had a superhero side to her, reminiscent of Johnny Thunder from the ’40s. This series told the tale of private eye Jonni Thunder’s adventure involving a mysterious statue of a lightning-like woman. In the course of the story, Jonni finds she can transforms into a life-size, living replica of the statue, complete with the ability to fly and zap wrongdoers with lightning bolts. As development for the series continued, Roy recounts that he and Dann weren’t given much encouragement for the series. Dick Giordano, the series’ editor, suggested that maybe they needed to change the series around, but Roy felt if they didn’t want to do the series as it was envisioned, then they wouldn’t be interested in writing it. They persevered.

GIRLS’ CLUB While hard-boiled detective Jonni Thunder may have been an innovation for comics, she wasn’t fiction’s first female private eye. In the Golden Age of radio, hard-boiled private detectives were all the rage. Sam Spade and Philip Marlow led the pack, but there were more radio detectives than broken dreams on a rainy Manhattan street. Candy Matson was the “girl detective” of this era and starred in a popular NBC West Coast show called Candy Matson, YUkon 2-2809 (the title’s numbers referred to her agency phone number), which ran from 1949–1951. The show starred Natalie Masters, and was created by her husband, Monte. Candy’s world embraced many of the standard detective tropes that would be revisited years later in Jonni Thunder. Candy lived in San Francisco, had a foppish sidekick, and a love interest who just happened to be a on the police force. Honey West debuted in the 1957 novel This Girl for Hire by G. G. Fickling, a pseudonym for the husband and wife team of Gloria and Forrest E. “Skip” Fickling. They would continue Honey’s adventures with several more novels. Like Jonni Thunder, Honey West is a second-generation detective, following in the footsteps of her father. The novels are fun, but

the character is best remembered for her short-lived TV series of 1966–1967. Although the show only ran for one season, fans still fondly recall its pet ocelot, sporty car, Bond-like spy gadgets, and delectable lead actress, Anne Francis. In the world of comics, Max Allan Collins and Terry Beatty introduced Ms. Tree in 1981. Ms. Michael Tree is a tough-as-nails female detective in the tradition of Collins’ friend and mentor, Mickey Spillane. In fact, Collins and Beatty created clever conceits to signal Ms. Tree’s connections to fictional detectives like Spillane’s Mike Hammer and Dragnet’s Joe Friday. The character would prove endearingly durable enough to survive for years and years amongst several different publishers. [Editor’s note: We explored her history in BACK ISSUE #26.] Jonni Thunder would be followed by many female P.I.s in comics including: • Dakota North, in 1987, created by Martha Thomases and Tony Salmons [see BI #90—ed.] • Jessica Jones in 2001’s Alias, created by Brian Michael Bendis and Michael Gaydos • Dex Parios in 2009’s Stumptown created by Greg Rucka and Matthew Southworth

52 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

Some En-Chandler-ing Evening (top) Comics noir, from the opening page of Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt #1 (Feb. 1985). (bottom) Jonni’s wheels. Story by Roy and Dann Thomas and Gerry Conway, art by Dick Giordano, colors by Anthony Tollin. TM & © DC Comics.

SHE’S GOT THE LOOK

Artist Ernie Colón was initially onboard for the series. A master artist who would collaborate with the Thomases over the years, most notably on Arak, Son of Thunder, he also excelled at drawing ordinary people in street clothes (i.e., not only superhero costumes). Colón set the tone and contributed several Jonni Thunder concept drawings, which eventually found their way into the text pages of the miniseries. But soon Colón had to beg off the project. “He was very enthusiastic but then he wandered off to do something else [Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld—ed.],” laments Roy Thomas. “That’s when Dick Giordano got involved.” And so, the series’ editor would become the series’ artist. Jonni had a striking look in both her identities. There are plenty of beautiful blondes in comics, but this blonde bombshell would sport a memorable black-and-white fashion motif. This visual signature was evident in all her outfits, from her black-and-white suits to her black-and-white nightgown. And rendered by the legendary Giordano, each outfit’s panache and fashion led one to wonder about this private eye’s fashion budget. Jonni’s alter ego, the Thunderbolt, was just the opposite. This supernatural being was essentially a golden, nude woman with stylized hair. The smooth lines of her lithe body were in stark contrast with the shocking electrical textures of her hair. Giordano and colorists Anthony Tollin (#1) and Adrienne Roy (#2-4) always rendered the Thunderbolt in just yellow and colors, without the traditional black trap lines of comic-book inking. “I believe the artists, Ernie Colón and Dick Giordano, were the primary creators of the visual aspects with suggestions from Roy,” says Dann Thomas. “Roy and I provided photos of various buildings and landmarks to be included.”

THE FORECAST CALLS FOR THUNDER

The series starts with a Raymond Chandler quote. The reader is introduced to a shadowy figure, in obligatory trench coat, walking down a rainy Hollywood Boulevard. It’s the lovely Jonni Thunder, returning from two weeks off after the funeral of her father. He was also her business partner, and now she is coming to terms with sole proprietorship of their small detective agency. She enters her office for the first time “working solo” and is surprised to find a corpse there. To make things interesting, the dead man is holding a golden statue of a woman with a stylized mane of flowing hair. It’s a classic premise: The hero is suspected by the police of wrongdoing. Jonni must solve the murder while sidestepping the best efforts of the police in order to find out the secret behind this mysterious statue. Jonni soon interacts with her supporting characters, her love interest, and one of the villains. There’s a strange sequence with a small, mechanical insect-like robot, but the real action comes at the end of the first issue at the observatory to which Jonni has been lured. Artist Giordano is in top form with his action sequences, and readers are as thrilled and surprised as Jonni when she assumes the form and shape of the mysterious statue. The second issue starts with the aftermath of the fight from the previous night, and the local police, led by the handsome Lt. Mike Sanchez, are grilling Jonni about another corpse. Like all good detectives, Jonni gives as good as she gets. Jonni’s natural, human side routinely shines through, and here her tough-as-nails demeanor is taken down a few pegs. After a great exit with a snappy line, Jonni must sheepishly return to ask the police officers for a jumpstart. It turns out her car, a vintage Thunderbird ’57, won’t start. Roy and Dann Thomas provide this series with touches like that, giving it an enduring charm. The lead character employs the snappy patter and bravado of a classic fictional private eye, but she’s continually brought back to earth with uncomfortable situations. Giordano’s masterful art in the second issue includes a fight scene (Jonni wears only a stylish robe), a venue change from Hollywood to

San Francisco, and the introduction Red Nails, the owner of a hot spot called the Chickie Club. “Private Eye by Trade—Superhero by Chance!” adorns the high-concept issue #3 cover, effectively summarizing the series’ premise with another gorgeous Giordano illustration. This issue offers a Batman-style deathtrap, San Fransisco-based action scenes (with a trolley car and Coit Tower), and another battle with Jonni as the Thunderbolt. It all gets wrapped up in the fourth and final issue with “Farewell, My Lightning,” a title with a coy nod to a classic Chandler thriller. The climactic battle is surprising, as Jonni takes the high road and chooses not to switch into her electric alter ego to electrocute the villain. But the mystery gets solved, and Jonni walks offstage with her two love interests (!). As a way of saying goodbye, she teases the reader with one more cute superhero trick, Jonni’s version of Superman’s iconic wink to the camera.

WHO’S WHO IN JONNI THUNDER

This series overflows with fascinating ideas, intriguing locales, and clever characters, but somehow, given the skillful writing of Roy and Dann Thomas and the brilliantly thoughtful art of Dick Giordano, it never seems bloated or overstuffed. Some of the memorable characters include:

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• Detective Mike Sanchez – In short order, readers meet the lead police investigator on the homicide case that kicks off the series. He’s a handsome cop who gives Jonni a bit of leeway while publicly barking at her, as police liaisons so often do in hard-boiled fiction. He wastes no time flirting with Jonni either, suggesting, “I’ll buy you a drink sometime.” His sidekick is the cinematically named McGuffin, who represents the old-school police department establishment. • Harrison Trump – This private eye from San Francisco lacks scruples and begins an adversarial relationship with Jonni. He would, however, soon become a second love interest of the heroine. Roy explained that the name Trump was chosen without having anything to do with the flamboyant New York real-estate developer in the news at the time (I wonder what happened to him?), but to continue the playing-card thematic of detectives with names like Sam Spade and Richard Diamond. • Slim Chance – A devious Hollywood actor, Chance made his fortune playing cowboys and is also seeking the elusive lightning-bolt statue. He’s a smarmy and deceitful “family friend,” and Jonni harbors ill will toward him. She feels he made his fortune at the expense of her father, who was his stuntman. Roy Thomas jokes that if there were ever a sequel to Jonni Thunder, fans would meet Slim’s brother, Fat Chance. • Red Nails, also from San Francisco, is an exotic dancer who runs San Francisco’s Chickee Club. She’s also the leader of the Glamazons, a group of tough, thuggish women. She soon reveals herself to be the villain of the series. Her name was a based on a popular song, “Red Sails in the Sunset,” explains Roy. • Don Herron is a tour guide that appears in the third issue. Herron, a real person, is an expert on Sam Spade and detective fiction and used to give tours showcasing the real San Francisco locations from Hammett’s thrillers. (Interestingly, he also edited a Robert E. Howard book titled The Dark Barbarian Towers Over All. Roy Thomas, as many fans readers know, has long been associated with and is a champion of Robert E. Howard’s writings and characters such as Conan and Kull.) Prior to

writing the series, Roy and Dann Thomas had enjoyed Herron’s tour during a trip to San Francisco, so it’s not surprising that Jonni Thunder stumbles into one of these tours during this adventure. • Shamus – Along the way, Jonni adopts a pet rabbit. She names him Shamus, an old nickname for private eyes. Again, this reflects the writers’ experiences. Roy and Dann had house rabbits at that time they wrote the series. “We used to have one in San Pedro, California,” says Roy. “We kept it like a cat. In fact, once we had a rabbit and a cat. The rabbit fell in love with the cat. The cat didn’t care much for the rabbit.” Somehow, the rabbit Shamus worked as part of the comic, despite the fact that this drama was so chock-full of characters and concepts. • Jim Thunder – Like Nancy Drew, Honey West, Ms. Tree, and even Disney’s Michael O’Hara the Fourth, Jonni Thunder is trying to fill the big shoes of her detective father. We quickly learn that Jim Thunder was a good cop who was cast out of the corrupt L.A. police force. As the story begins, Jonni is mourning his recent death and coming to grips with being the sole owner of their detective agency. Her father had died from an animal attack—“Too many Camels, too much Wild Turkey,” explained Jonni in one of many clever lines of the series.

CHICKS (AND GUYS) DIG THE CAR

Jonni Thunder’s 1957 Thunderbird visually anchored the series and has a rich backstory of its own. The Ford Thunderbird, originally developed in response to the Corvette, has become an iconic auto embracing the style and panache of a bygone age. The ’57 Thunderbird was the last of the two-seaters, as Ford management was fearful that by not offering a four-seater sales potential would be limited. Thus, the ’57 T-bird is, for many, the most sought-after version of a sought-after classic model. To his credit, Roy Thomas did not romanticize the trials and tribulations of owning a classic ’50s car in the ’80s. Throughout the series, Jonni finds herself frustrated by the car’s frequent breakdowns. The car looks spectacular, especially as rendered by Giordano, but the auto’s breakdowns provides a real-world counterbalance to the series. [Editor’s note: Giordano was a car buff and enjoyed drawing autos; Charlton Comics’ hot rod comics were some of his earliest opportunities to draw cars.] “I never owned a Thunderbird,” laments Roy. “I rode around in one during ’64 and ’65 during my last year of teaching.” A wine-colored Thunderbird belonged to his roommate. It had been in a wreck and was refitted with a Volkswagen engine. Although he wanted to buy it, Thomas realized he’d have no place to park it as he moved to New York City to begin his career in comics. Roy would come close to purchasing a T-bird years later. At one point, a mechanic pal had suggested that he buy a kit and build one. Later, his wife Dann was going to buy one, but Roy nixed that idea after (“I swear to God,” he says) “I saw two Thunderbirds broken down on the highway in one night. “In the [Jonni Thunder] story, the Thunderbird breaks down,” remembers Roy. “That is part of me imagining I own it.”

LIGHTNING ALMOST STRIKES TWICE

The series was well received. In fact, issue #3 proudly excerpted Don Thompson’s glowing review from The Comics Buyer’s Guide. Although the character Jonni Thunder appeared in Roy Thomas’ Infinity, Inc., there was never a sequel. Schedules for the creators Dick Giordano and Roy and Dann Thomas never seemed to align. And while a similar character has appeared in DC’s Earth 2 series, further adventures for this sexy sleuth bombshell seem unlikely. Tantalizingly, Roy Thomas recalls a Jonni Thunder reboot that never was. “Five or ten years ago,” DC had asked Thomas for a Justice Society of America/Infinity, Inc.-themed series. He proposed a comic that would tie together the JSA’s Johnny Thunder, the Western Jonny Thunder, and the modern, female private-investigator version. “Somehow, DC wasn’t interested in that,” says Thomas.

Super Sleuth Original (and gorgeous) Giordano artwork from Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt #2 (Apr. 1985), courtesy of Trevor Pearson. TM & © DC Comics.

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Crossfire © Mark Evanier and Dan Spiegle.

THE OTHER ’80s COMIC DETECTIVE WITH A ’57 THUNDERBIRD

SFX, ’80s Style Note that the red lines in the original artwork appeared as a solid color (in this case, red) in the figure of the Thunderbolt. Dick Giordano cover art to Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt #4 (Aug. 1985), courtesy of Heritage Comics Auctions (www.ha.com). TM & © DC Comics.

FAREWELL, MY LOVELY

Maybe it wasn’t quite the Justice Society reboot that fans were clamoring for, but Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt delivered an innovative and enduring adventure: a detective thriller with just a dash of superheroics. Jonni and her cast were all intriguing characters bursting with potential, and having read it, it’s impossible not to wistfully wonder, “What happened next?” “Looking back I see so much we would do differently, but I’m very grateful to have been given the chance to work on the series and I’m always glad to learn that others enjoyed reading Jonni Thunder,” says Dann Thomas. ED CATTO is a marketing strategist with a specialty in pop culture. As co-founder of Bonfire Agency, Ed is dedicated to connecting brands with the “Geeks of the World” in innovative and authentic ways. And as a “retropreneur,” Ed leads a team specializing in rejuvenating brands (including Captain Action) for today’s audiences.

Another comic-book detective of the ’80s, Crossfire, also drove a ’57 Thunderbird… and that’s where it gets interesting. Crossfire was a comic written by Mark Evanier and illustrated by Dan Spiegle. In this series, originally published by Eclipse, bail bondsman Jay Endicott would solve crimes and fight evil in a ninja-like superhero outfit. Over time, the series would play to Spiegle’s artistic strengths and emphasize Endicott’s adventures as a non-superpowered, non-costumed hero. Thus, he could drive the mean streets of Hollywood in his light blue T-bird with the customized plates: Bail 4 U. Mark Evanier explains that he had a lifelong fascination with this particular car. Early in his career as a Hollywood writer, Evanier recalls, he was chatting up The Price is Right model Dian Parkinson. She owned a ’57 T-bird and he really wanted to buy it from her. Unfortunately, she thought Evanier was hitting on her. Parkinson was very curt and cut the conversation short. Evanier did finally purchase a ’57 Thunderbird in 1981— and it had belonged to Anthony Perkins. The Psycho star had used his T-bird in several movies. Perkins would lease the car out to each movie’s production company and make an additional fee. He would repaint it every time. But, as was the case with Jonni Thunder’s T-bird, Perkins’ car needed numerous repairs. By the time it was finally ready to roll, Perkins had downsized and didn’t have a spot to keep it. When told how much the total repair bill was, Perkins instructed the mechanic to just sell the car and keep the money. Evanier heard about this. He was excited to buy the classic car, but was short on cash. He couldn’t believe it when his dad called and told him that his recently deceased aunt had left him the exact amount of money he’d need for the car. The day Evanier bought the T-bird, he drove it to CBS, where he was working as writer on Dungeons & Dragons. He pulled into an executive parking spot. They were willing to bend the rules for him because the vintage car looked so good. As fate would have it, The Price is Right model Dian Parkinson walked up to Evanier and the car. She didn’t remember him or their prior conversation, but she did start telling him how she had owned one. She bragged how her husband had even put it in one of his shows—Vega$. Evanier, “returning the favor” from years ago, abruptly cut her off. “It felt so good,” he says. Evanier loved the car, but it would break down frequently. He couldn’t find a good mechanic, and it would often languish in a garage. Dan Spiegle, the Crossfire artist, only saw the car once but was able to draw it from every angle. Evanier was so impressed by Spiegle’s illustrations that he even wrote a car chase into an issue of Crossfire. “If anyone could draw a car chase in a comic, it would be Spiegle,” he reasons. The light blue 1957 Thunderbird would later be borrowed for another Evanier and Spiegle endeavor: Hollywood Superstars, published by the Marvel imprint Epic Comics in the early ’90s. Evanier reveals that Roy and Dann Thomas did indeed ride in this ’57 T-bird once. He was taking them to Chuck’s Steak House to pay off a steak dinner bet. Might that have helped sparked Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt?

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“I NEED SOME KIND OF COSTUME FOR THE PARTY TONIGHT.”

Between Superman and Batman lie the inspirations for many other subsequent superheroes published right up to the present day. However, chronologically, between Superman and Batman came the Crimson Avenger. With a first appearance in Detective Comics #20 (Oct. 1938), the Crimson Avenger followed Superman’s first appearance in Action Comics #1 (June 1938) and preceded Batman (Detective Comics #27, May 1939), making the character DC’s second costumed crimefighter and first masked hero. Although destined not to become a household name in the way that those other two characters did, the Crimson Avenger has continued to make appearances in the DC Universe. Rarely, though, has he been the headline act. In a several-year run (1938 to 1944) in Detective Comics, the Crimson Avenger shared the pages with Batman and others, and only twice appeared on the cover (#22, Dec. 1938, and #34, Dec. 1939). The Crimson Avenger also appeared regularly in Leading Comics from #1 (Winter 1941–1942) to 14 (Spring 1945), but only as part of the group the Seven Soldiers of Victory. Later appearances in Justice League of America and All-Star Squadron were also guest shots. That all changed in 1988 when the Crimson Avenger starred in a four-part miniseries that sought to explore and develop the roots and motivation of the character.

“YOU’LL BE THE ONE DRESSED AS A BLEEDING HEART.”

In fact, the story started earlier, with the Crimson Avenger starring in the fifth issue of Secret Origins (Aug. 1986) [see BACK ISSUE #98 for more on this incarnation of Secret Origins—ed.]. This version of Secret Origins was partly designed to focus on Golden Age characters. New retellings of the origins of Superman and Captain Marvel appeared in the first and third issues, respectively. The next berth scheduled for a Golden Ager went to the Crimson Avenger. Roy Thomas explained this perhaps surprising selection in the editorial of issue #5: “The Crimson Avenger never had an origin. He was already there, with a sometime supporting cast which included Wing and his secretary Miss Stevens. For the most part, I’m just as happy his origin wasn’t told in the old days— ’cause that gave me a chance to give him one.” Secret Origins #5 is a great comic, worth hunting down. Roy Thomas and his co-scripting wife Dann are joined by the art team of Gene Colan on pencils and Mike Gustovich on inks. The 1938 setting suits Colan’s

The Original Dark Knight Covers to DC’s four-issue Crimson Avenger miniseries of 1988. Cover artists: Greg Brooks and Mike Ebert (#1), Rick Stasi and Dick Giordano (#2 and 4), and Keith Wilson and Giordano (#3). TM & © DC Comics.

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by I a

n Millsted

From Cloak to Costume (left) Crimson Avenger’s original look, as seen on the cover to Detective Comics #22 (Dec. 1938). Cover by Jim Chambers. (right) CA’s red-andyellow superhero costume, as the hero appears alongside his fellow Seven Soldiers of Victory on Nick Cardy’s iconic cover to Justice League of America #100 (Aug. 1972). TM & © DC Comics.

noirish art style, and he responded with a stylish and atmospheric set of pages. “Gene, need it be said, was my first choice for penciler,” wrote Roy Thomas in that same editorial, “partly because of the feel for the late-’30s period he demonstrated in Nathaniel Dusk.” In the space of 21 pages, Thomas established an interesting and mature cast. The Crimson Avenger is Lee Travis, a socially conscious newspaper proprietor who previously fought against Franco’s forces in the Spanish Civil War. His driver, Wing, is a man willing to challenge Travis on world affairs—especially when they relate to the Japanese invasion of his former home country, China. Travis’ secretary, Miss Stevens, makes only a brief appearance but is quickly established as confident and witty. There are two characters particular to this issue. One is Claudia Barker, a magazine journalist who seeks to interview Travis. Barker is introduced as bright, formidable, and perhaps slightly jaded and pessimistic in her worldview. To be fair, there was plenty to be pessimistic about in 1938. Barker exits the story half way through (you’ll have to read it to find out why) but has significant influence on Travis’ development into the Crimson Avenger. The other guest member of the cast is none other than Orson Welles, as Thomas chose to set his story against the events of the radio broadcast of Welles’ adaptation of H. G. Wells’ The War of the Worlds. Colan draws a great Orson Welles as well as the gangsters, society ladies and gents, Martians (sort of), and period cars. There is plenty of sharp dialogue courtesy of Roy and Dann Thomas, and the story is resolved satisfactorily while establishing the motivation and trappings of the Crimson Avenger as a masked crimefighter.

“I’VE GOT ENOUGH BLOOD ON MY HANDS ALREADY.”

Of course, Roy Thomas had the experience of writing about the Crimson Avenger before the Secret Origins issue, having used the character in various issues of All-Star Squadron (see this issue’s Pro2Pro interview). However, that was a version of the character from late 1941 onwards, when he appeared and operated as a more overtly superherotype character with costume to match. The version Thomas was writing in Secret Origins and the miniseries is closer to the pulp antecedents such as the Shadow or the Green Hornet. Although issue #1 of The Crimson Avenger (June 1988) appeared nearly two years after Secret Origins #5, the internal chronology was only weeks later. In that time Travis and Wing have developed into both fully-fledged vigilante crimefighters as well as having become

partners and confidantes. “I’ll stake my driver against any in the city any day,” says Travis early on in the first issue. Wing is clearly still an employee, but the relationship is one of strong and mutual respect. Wing’s ethnicity is used to highlight the international political and military issues of the day. The nature of a series retrospectively fitting story into continuity meant that some of the future of the characters had already been revealed to readers. One such story was the appearance of the Seven Soldiers of Victory in Justice League of America #100 (Aug. 1972) to 102 (Oct. 1972), where writer Len Wein had established a significant end for Wing. Roy Thomas explains to BACK ISSUE that “both of us wanted to give Wing more character. After all, as I knew, he would one day heroically sacrifice himself for the other Seven Soldiers of Victory, as per Len Wein’s story.” The plot of the miniseries, with a story arc title “The Dark Cross Conspiracy,” involves Russian ballerinas, Chinese aviators, singing movie cowboys, and Nazi Bundists (going by the name of the Dark Cross, hence the title) in a pleasingly complex plot that unfolds over the four issues. “A lot of the complexity was Dann’s contribution,” adds Thomas. “She had at least as much to do with the plot of that series as I did, though, of course, I always retained a veto power and always wrote the final, actual synopsis that was sent to the artist.” The dialogue is, in places, a little more hard-boiled than in the Origins issue. Another point of interest is that, right from the outset, the female characters are well developed, mature, and independent. Miss Stevens returns in comedic form, dressed in comedy Adolf Hitler costume. That works better than it sounds, raising the moral issue of whether evil can be challenged best by laughing at it. New character Sonya Nabatov, a ballerina, is strong-willed and unafraid to show what she wants. Also new is Su Ling Fang, a long-distance aviatrix. Again, Roy Thomas gives credit to his wife and co-writer. “Dann would naturally think in terms of some women characters to balance out the men. And, of course, she had taken the lead in writing the Jonni Thunder a.k.a. Thunderbolt series with Dick Giordano, as well (see elsewhere this issue). The Crimson Avenger is often referred to as just “the Crimson,” reflecting the use of that version of the name from early issues of the original Detective Comics run. Gene Colan wasn’t available for the miniseries and the artist selected to replace him was relative newcomer Greg Brooks. Brooks had been recommended for the series by then-DC senior editor Mike Gold,

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who had suggested the series be commissioned. Brooks also had the support of Mark Waid, who was the associate editor on the series. Although Brooks’ involvement on The Crimson Avenger would end in tragedy, the signs were promising at the start. Brooks’ art on the first issue is atmospheric and strong on period detail. He was clearly influenced by other artists such as Alex Toth and, perhaps, Frank Miller. The likenesses are distinctive and expressive, and both comedic and dramatic moments work well. “He was DC’s suggestion,” Thomas reports, with hindsight. The comic books that Roy Thomas worked on at DC in the mid-to-late-1980s often featured the work of up-andcoming younger artists. Some, such as Todd McFarlane, who worked with Thomas on Infinity, Inc., went on to become big names in the industry. Others, less so. “In addition to being strong-willed about what I wanted in some cases,” continues Thomas, “I was often working with Golden Age concepts and these were not destined to earn big royalties, so that didn’t help me attract veterans. I was, for the most part, happy with the artists I worked with. Can’t blame anybody for not working with me for economic reasons.” Looking back at Greg Brooks’ art, Thomas observes, “I found it… uneven. Some good panels, some bad. A Toth influence, which I mostly liked. I think his unpublished Wildcat Secret Origins story was better than his Crimson Avenger.” BACK ISSUE asked Mark Waid how confident Brooks was as an artist at this point. Waid responds, “I don’t think he was ever terribly confident. He certainly ran hot and cold temperamentally. I remember how he once surprised me in my office with a cover for one of the issues (I don’t remember which one) without having run a sketch by me first, and when I told him it was good but too close to another cover running that same time, he lost his cool, tore the cover in half, threw it in my trash can, and stormed out of the offices.”

“MAYBE I’M NOT OFF THE LEDGE YET.”

By the third issue the setting had moved to San Francisco and Mike Gustovich had joined the art team. The action moves quickly and the mystery element of the story gradually pulls closer to home for Lee Travis before the events of the fourth issue comes back full circle when events from the Secret Origins issue have their full significance revealed. The ultimate villain is also revealed in issue #4 and describes Lee Travis in his Crimson Avenger identity as “part avenger, part boy scout.” The journey Travis goes on across these four issues is one in which he is forced to confront a choice between cynicism and idealism, and between inertia and

No Secrets Writer Roy Thomas dusted off the Crimson Avenger for an appearance in Secret Origins #5 (Aug. 1986). Original art by Gene Colan and Mike Gustovich, courtesy of Heritage (www.ha.com). TM & © DC Comics.

action. Politics is also to the fore. Travis is openly left wing, within the context of the politics of the era. His opposition to fascism had been strong enough for him to volunteer to fight against Franco in Spain and he is clearly more Democrat than Republican. Roy Thomas, who has said in his own Alter Ego magazine that he has voted both ways in his time, shares, “I feel there should be left- and right-wing, conservative and liberal people in stories, and that in general it’s best not to treat them as stereotypes. We get enough of that from the news.”

“THIS IS PERSONAL NOW.”

As the Crimson Avenger achieved resolution with the support of friends, artist Greg Brooks was caught up in a tragic storm of events. As with so many personal tragedies, the troubles were not apparent from the outside. Mark Waid detailed some of the events in Comic Book Creator #3 (Fall 2013): “I genuinely liked him. He would come into the office with his wife, Elizabeth, who was awesome, and she’d bring their infant baby with them. I referred to the baby as ‘their agent’ because it’s really hard not to give work to an earnest freelancer who’s literally showing you the mouth he has to feed.” Roy Thomas never met Brooks but “just talked on the phone with him a handful of times. Once I remember I called his place and his wife answered and, out of the blue and for no reason that I could ever figure out, was kind of snide and nasty to me.” Mark Waid continued the account in Comic Book Creator: “Turned out Elizabeth and Greg had been separated for a while—nobody knew that—and, he said, she’d come to the apartment to let him visit with the baby and she was taunting him about her new boyfriend while he was just trying to do some work around the house, building a bookcase. That’s when it became an EC story. She’s taunting him and he’s got a hammer in his hand. And he snaps and loses it and bashes her head in right in front of their infant kid. With no idea what to do next, he wraps garbage bags around the body and puts it in the bathtub while he tries to figure out how to proceed.” Waid adds further detail for BACK ISSUE: “It was after he turned in the final issue. When he went off the grid, he really went off the grid. When he killed his wife, he stayed in town for a while… and then off he went to Canada, leaving the baby with neighbors and claiming a family emergency. Once he returned, they caught up with him pretty quickly.” Before fleeing, Brooks had visited both DC and Marvel offices (he had started getting work at Marvel as well on the likes of Marvel Fanfare, for which he did full art on a Fantastic Four story which eventually appeared in #43, Apr. 1989) and told different stories at each place. He told DC his wife had hit her head after falling in the shower. At Marvel he said she had been hit by a car. There was a still further twist in this bizarre, tragic story. Waid, again from Comic Book Creator, added, “It turns out Elizabeth wasn’t who she said she was. She was living under an assumed name! Years before, she embezzled money from the insurance agency she was working at, stole her college roommate’s identification—and made a life for herself in New York. So when the cops found the body in the dumpster and checked fingerprints, nothing matched.”

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This is all a long time ago now. Greg Brooks has presumably served his time and been released. As far as I’ve been able to ascertain he has not tried to renew contact or seek work in the comics industry. It remains a tragic sequence of events and a sad postscript to the publication of a creatively successful comic story about idealism triumphing over cynicism.

“THAT CRIMSON FELLA SURE MAKES LIFE MORE EXCITING.”

The Crimson Avenger lived to fight many more days. Between Secret Origins #5 and the miniseries there had already been a notable guest-starring role in a Sandman story in Secret Origins #7 (Oct. 1986). “The Secret Origin of the Golden Age Sandman” is set at the 1939 World’s Fair and is written by Roy and Dann Thomas, with pencils by Michael Bair and inks by Steve Montano. The Sandman is a character not without parallels with the Crimson Avenger. They both started out as protagonists who wore regular clothes with just the addition of a facemask, or gasmask in the case of the Sandman. Later they both acquired colorful, full-body costumes. Each had a junior partner. However, in this story they start out as potential enemies before combining to fight a common enemy in the Phantom of the Fair. If the Crimson Avenger series is ever collected in book form it would benefit strongly by being bookended by the two Secret Origins stories.

That Phantom of the Fair story was revisited in another Sandman/Crimson Avenger story of the same name in Sandman Mystery Theatre. The Crimson Avenger is largely restricted to a cameo in #43 (Oct. 1996), where the character is portrayed in a fairly gung-ho manner at odds with what was seen in the ’80s series and contrasting with the humanistic personality of Wesley Dodds, a.k.a. the Sandman. Also of interest is the version of the Crimson Avenger that appeared in the Geoff Johns-scripted JSA series. Lee Travis was no longer the man behind the mask, but his successor had much potential. There have been other appearances and it is unlikely that the name or character will not return in some form again. Whichever creators take up the baton they would do well to take another look at the five issues detailed above by Messrs. Thomas, Colan, Brooks, and Gustovich.

Cloaked Crimebuster Greg Brooks’ moody Crimson Avenger art, as seen on the title splashes to (left) issue #1 (June 1988) and (right) #2 (July 1988). TM & © DC Comics.

With thanks to Roy Thomas and Mark Waid. IAN MILLSTED is writer and teacher based in Bristol, England. His latest books are the Western adventure Silence Rides Alone (Sundown Press), a critical study of Doctor Who in Black Archive 8: Black Orchid, and an anthology of ghost stories he co-edited, The Dark Half of the Year.

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The years 1986–1987 were a seminal period for DC Comics as it launched its post-Crisis on Infinite Earths universe. During this fertile creative period emerged The Spectre #1 (Apr. 1987), in which a more obscure but steady hero from the 1940s was relaunched by writer Doug Moench and artists Gene Colan and Steve Mitchell. For the first time, readers followed the exploits of a severely depowered Spectre. Gone was writer Michael Fleisher and artist Jim Aparo’s omnipotent, punishing, godlike Spectre who (in)famously starred in Adventure Comics #431–440 (Feb. 1974–Aug. 1975). In fact, during my interview with him, Doug commented on this controversial interpretation of the character: “When Sir Robert Greenberger called me up to see if I wanted to write The Spectre, I would ask if I could write the book in a certain way, and he would tell me that he would let me do it in that manner. It was that simple. Still, I asked him, ‘I don’t have to do the Fleisher ridiculous mutilations?’ ” Fortunately, Bob Greenberger gave Doug carte blanche to recraft the Spectre as a diminished supernatural figure who was forced to coexist with his human host, private detective Jim Corrigan. Thanks to his new energetic take on the Spectre/Corrigan pairing, readers witnessed the two working together in the form of a complex partnership that added new dimensions to each character. After having the unique privilege of interviewing the living comic-book writer legend who is Doug Moench in his Bucks County, Pennsylvania, home for my article on his Electric Warrior run (BACK ISSUE #98), my wife Amanda and I were constantly talking about when we would see Doug again. Luckily, BI editor Michael Eury contacted me and asked if I were interested in a follow-up interview with Doug concerning his run on The Spectre. Hence, Amanda and I found ourselves on a warm Saturday evening in October 2017 once more kindly being welcomed into the Moench’s beautiful home. (For more on its “true” origins, see the sidebar feature!) Wishing to impress Doug with the culinary wonders of the Teriyaki Chef, a Japanese restaurant located in the Quakertown Farmers Market, we arrived at his place with such delicacies as harumaki (a fried roll filled with a beef stuffing) and gyoza (potstickers) as our appetizers. For our main course, we ate chicken karaage (a fried dish that requires a three-day marinating process), katsudon (a fried pork cutlet with eggs and mushrooms over rice in a bowl, which Doug compared to egg foo young), and the special of the day, a grilled salmon platter. As we unpacked the cuisine, Doug brewed coffee, and we sat down to eat at his spacious rounded-booth dinner table, reflecting upon the recent death of Len Wein, whom Doug knew quite well. Then, he switched up the mood by entertaining Amanda and me with his lively anecdotes of his early 20s concerning an interaction with Roger Ebert when they both worked at the Chicago Sun Times (see Alter Ego #146, May 2017, for his hilarious version of this tale) and his unfortunate encounter one night with some outrageously spicy Indian food at a Chicago party. Yet, this interview isn’t just about chilling with Doug over Japanese food, but his thought-provoking work on The Spectre, right! On that note, we gradually flowed into his spacious rec-room and began discussing how he became involved with the book. (And, if you’re curious to see what he said to me first about several minor [*cough*] discrepancies in my BI #98 piece, see the aforementioned sidebar.) – Thomas Powers

by T h o m a s

doug moench

TM & © DC Comics.

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Powers

The Ghostly Guardian Returns Writer Doug Moench’s The Spectre #1 (Apr. 1987). Original cover art by Michael Kaluta. Courtesy of Heritage Comics Auctions (www.ha.com). TM & © DC Comics.

THOMAS POWERS: Doug, during your time on The Spectre, you wrote 31 issues and an Annual. DOUG MOENCH: You are kidding! I did 31 issues of The Spectre? That’s crazy! POWERS: Yeah, that’s a healthy run. How did you become involved with scripting the book? MOENCH: This was right before I got called to go to Hollywood again. That was 1987. I remember writing a lot of it out there. Bob Greenberger called me up and asked me to do it. The Spectre has always been one of my favorite characters. Well, Batman is my favorite DC character, and then the obvious ones like the Flash and Green Lantern, but then it was mainly the lesser ones like the Spectre and Hawkman. So I liked the idea of writing The Spectre, and Bob said, “All right.” And I always said yes back then, unless I would only sleep five hours a night. I remember telling Greenberger at some point— I don’t know if it was the first call or not—that we should bring the Spectre somewhere slightly back to Earth. He is just so ridiculously omnipotent. That’s why as much as I recognize Superman as an iconic character, I never really liked him. To me, I don’t see how Superman could possibly be a hero. He is never at risk. Nothing can hurt him. How many times can you use the kryptonite? More than once a year is too much for my money. POWERS: What did you think about Steve Gerber’s original pitch for DC’s 1987 relaunch of The Spectre, since he had been the original writer for the book?

Upon Amanda setting up the microphone and recording equipment on Doug’s glass coffee table held up by his twin stone gargoyles, I sat down with him on his couch ready to unlock his memories concerning his Spectre run, but he immediately said to me in regard to several statements I made in my last article on Electric Warrior (BI #98), “Let’s clear those things up first, so I can get it out of my head.” As I took a nervous breath, waiting to hear what I screwed up since I did not use a recording device last time, Doug gently smiled and said, “There are just two major things, Tom, like this green couch we are on, which you wrote as being brown in the Electric Warrior article, but that’s not important.” As he jovially laughed, I saw that we were indeed sitting upon a green couch, which made me realize that Doug, ever the consummate writer, had patiently plotted out this revelation to me weeks in advance, waiting for the right time and place to literally situate me in the proper environment for such a well-deserved admonishment! Next, in regard to me writing in that piece that he lived in a mid-19thCentury house, he remarked, “This house is actually a mid-18th-Century design. It was brand new in 1975, but it was designed to look like an old house. The builder, who was my neighbor, got the idea when he was stationed in Europe during World War II, and he saw this French country house and always wanted to build it. This room is an addition.” For fans of Doug’s Spectre run, issues #22–23 (Winter 1988–Holiday 1989) are especially interesting as they deal with such subject matter as cattle mutilations and men in black, which he later famously elaborated upon with his Paradox Press book, The Big Book of the Unexplained (1997). However, in my BI #98 article, I had jumped to the conclusion that he had once experienced a firsthand interaction with extraterrestrials. Specifically, Doug explained in regard to me laterally mentioning his encounter with a large-eyed deer when he was a boy in the last piece, “I did not claim to have been abducted by aliens. I was just, I assume without further proof, impressed by a pocket wonderland that I had come across during a visit to Canada with my father.” Doug likewise wanted me to specify that he does not claim to have given Roger Daltrey the idea to share with Pete Townshend for the rock-opera Tommy of the titular character being a deaf, dumb, and blind kid but that he suggested something that Townshend may have already been developing in a synchronicity-filled manner. In Doug’s words, “For the thing with the Who, however that came up, I interviewed half of the band once and had interactions with the other two. I sat down with and interviewed Roger Daltrey and John Entwistle, the bass player. And during the interview, Daltrey said that Pete Townshend has a great idea for a rock opera. The term ‘rock opera’ didn’t exist then. No one had ever thought about it before. I said, ‘Wow, that could be cool,’ and he said it is about a deaf, dumb, and blind kid. So I said that his only interaction with other people is touch. Daltrey then said, ‘Wow, I got to tell Pete about that!’ ”

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DOUG MOENCH’S CORRECTIVE COUCH: GREEN, LIKE THE SPECTRE’S CLOAK!

INTERVIEW WITH ROBERT GREENBERGER For the first half of Doug Moench’s run of The Spectre POWERS: While editing The Spectre, how did you interact (issues #1–15, Annual #1), Robert Greenberger served as with Doug? his editor. The following interview that I conducted via GREENBERGER: Doug and I had gotten to know one another email with him provides some great background context since I joined DC in 1984, so we eased into a fine working for the series and some illuminating anecdotes regarding relationship. He rarely came to New York, so we spoke frequently by phone. Gene was still eager to explore the his time on the book. THOMAS POWERS: What was your involvement with Steve supernatural, so he didn’t mind the change in direction. Gerber’s pitch for The Spectre? How did it differ from Doug’s Once Doug came up with the duality of Spectre and Corrigan at odds with one another, things took shape. Making him a version of the series? ROBERT GREENBERGER: As you know, Steve did very P.I. gave us freedom and the chance to build up a supporting little writing for DC although he was quite friendly with cast. I helped Gene come up with modern fashion and hair many of the editors. Dick Giordano told me Steve was for Kim Liang, and Doug relished the notion of playing looking to do some writing for the company with Jim and Kim and the Spectre and Madame around 1985 as we were deep in the throes of Xanadu as paired lovers. producing Crisis on Infinite Earths. Dick and POWERS: What did you think about Doug’s scripts? Steve had settled on the Spectre as a GREENBERGER: Doug loved the freedom to character worthy of reinterpreting, but first, explore both the supernatural and the “real” we had to figure out his role post-Crisis. world, eschewing the heroes and villains. As it was, Roy Thomas was already making He had some strong themes in mind, and I plans for his Last Days of the Justice Society was fine with the change-of-pace assignment. of America Special #1 (1986), so we needed When we had to tie-in with Millennium, I carefully to figure out how he intended to leave worked out the Week 4 events with Denny the Ghostly Guardian so that Steve had a O’Neil for Captain Atom and Detective Comics. Since that left me Suicide Squad and The starting point. robert greenberger Spectre, it proved to be, in my mind, the Given the milieu, Dick wanted to give strongest week of tie-ins. the penciling assignment to Gene Colan, who was coming off Detective Comics and would have time POWERS: During your work on the book, what artists did you on his hands. Once word got out Steve and Gene had The enjoy working with? Spectre, Steve Mitchell stepped forward to ink the project. GREENBERGER: Having Gene in New York City was a blessing because he would come in with the art, and I could sit with Suddenly, I had a formidable team at my disposal. Steve prepped a kickass premise and outline that would him and talk about his storytelling. He had decided the be heavily influenced by Miami Vice, which had debuted on rules were for breaking and kept experimenting with page NBC a year earlier and was a pop-culture mainstay for a while. layouts and design. Every now and then, I had to rein him He wanted it to be set on the Florida coast, partner Jim Corrigan in, asking him to adjust some perspective or alter something with another cop, and deal with the drug trade plus the for storytelling clarity, and he didn’t argue once he saw my point. In return, he’d bring his SVA [School of Visual Arts] kids Spirit of Vengeance. Everyone was excited, and this got a greenlight. Steve in once a semester, and I would address them about the plotted the first issue, Gene started penciling. Steve plotted business side of the field. the second issue, and Gene kept penciling. Then, we hit a I wanted to keep things visually interesting, so I settled wall. Steve was known for pushing his deadlines, so Dick on having a different artist provide three covers, kicking and senior editor Mike Gold, my boss at the time, had me off with Michael Kaluta. As a result, I got some strong make it clear to Steve that the first time he blew a deadline and fresh work from a bunch of people I truly admired. he would be fired. Knowing the Millennium crossover was coming, I arranged Back then, we were just beginning to use computers to it so Jerry Bingham, who was my regular cover artist on communicate, and a lot of our “instant” communication was other titles, would be my guy for the tie-in, executing the done through MCI Mail, which effectively was email, printed four-cover tie-in for Week 4. It was a thrill to get Art Adams and delivered. Steve and I spoke by phone often, but plots for the Annual cover, and he filled the crowd with plenty and business were also conducted this way. One day, I got of familiar faces, too familiar for the likes of our legal a note from Steve informing me that he would miss the department, so the cover got modified for print while the deadline for dialogue to issue #1. He was invited to visit the unaltered original is in my possession. set for the last day of shooting on Howard the Duck, and he POWERS: What is your memory of what happened with had a choice: pick up his dry cleaning or complete the issue #9, in which Madame Xanadu was (mostly) nude? GREENBERGER: I asked production director Bob Rozakis about dialogue. Howard and his clothes won. I had no choice but to fire Steve, and it was perhaps the the blue surprint, which was intended to cover Madame Xanadu most painful editorial decision I had to make since I knew enough so as not to cause trouble. I may have misunderstood this would have been a winner of a series. Steve took it well how much would be covered and was just as surprised as the enough, and Dick decided to offer it to Doug Moench, retailers and readers when the book was printed. Once the whose schedule was opening up. I recall sitting at lunch kerfuffle died down, Mike Gold informed me I was being with Dick and Doug hearing Doug’s thoughts about the series, taken off the book as its editor as a consequence. My error, which was vastly different but equally valid. my punishment, which is as it should have been. 62 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

(For Robert Greenberger’s POV on this pitch, see the POWERS: Then how does the Voice work in relationship to the Spectre for you? sidebar on the opposite page.) MOENCH: I was never told about Steve Gerber. MOENCH: Back in 1940, someone in DC at the time created POWERS: Really? the Spectre [Jerry Siegel]. The guy was Jewish and took a MOENCH: I thought I would know because he was a very Old Testament approach to it. You are not supposed good friend of mine. I went out to dinner several times to name God in Judaism, so it is just called the Voice. I went with him around that time, and he never said anything along with the idea that it’s God, but I decided that I was about it, so maybe he didn’t know that I was writing going to make it more mysterious and ambiguous. anything about it. POWERS: Does this mean that the Spectre and God are POWERS: When you were writing The Spectre, what was one and the same? Or is the Spectre Jesus-like? MOENCH: That is kind of why I didn’t go with it your process? MOENCH: I would jot down random things and completely. It is not what the original creator stick them with the Spectre notes, Batman intended, but I am going to go past that and notes, but I never would get to some of say he can feel love for a human being and them. I enjoyed The Spectre pretty much. that a human being can feel love for him. Some issues were hard to write. When I POWERS: So you see them as two was in Hollywood, I was putting in at separate individuals? least 12 hours at the Mighty Mouse MOENCH: Well, yeah, even if they are one studio and going to my rented apartment and the same. It is a Jekyll-Hyde thing— two different personalities, in effect. while my wife and kid were back in Bucks County. I wrote Mighty Mouse: The New POWERS: Getting back to Kimmie, whom Adventures from early 1987 to 1988. We had Corrigan would employ as his secretary to have the first season done by the fall, when that season started. As a showgene colan runner, I had to rewrite the episodes that sucked. I was the head of everything. © Luigi Novi / I had to stay up most of the night to Wikimedia Commons. make the deadline, five books at a time. Crazy schedule. I couldn’t wait to get down to a lighter one. POWERS: That sounds intense! So, in regard to Gene Colan’s work as penciler on the first six issues of The Spectre (Apr.–Nov. 1987), what did you think about working with him again, as you had recently collaborated with him a few years earlier on Detective Comics? MOENCH: When Bob told me that Gene Colan was going to be the penciler, I knew he was perfect for it. Since he did that long run of Tomb of Dracula, it was obvious to me he would be perfect for The Spectre. POWERS: Did Colan’s classic illustrating style shape your scripts for The Spectre? MOENCH: Sure. I like to know who the artist is, so I can visualize it. With Gene Colan, you know exactly what it is going to look like. POWERS: Now, with issue #1, on page 9, you have Jim Corrigan’s body in an urn, which is stored in a locker, and Kim Liang, your new character, can’t figure out what to do in terms of moving this heavy object, but these two guys who are either cops or security guards immediately, or “magically,” show up with a cart and help her out. MOENCH: I remember having the idea of Kimmie finding Corrigan in an urn and him being dead as the starting point for the whole run. It was the first thing that I thought of. POWERS: But is this the same Jim Corrigan who has been alive since the 1940s? He looks as if he is in his 20s or early 30s, but he is 60, 70, or 80 years old. MOENCH: When they brought Captain America back, they had him frozen in an ice block. Batman is over a hundred. You just can’t think about it. POWERS: Did you think of Jim Corrigan, then, as a blank slate? At times, you write him as being grumpy and weathered, and you give him a first-person narration, along with brooding and introspective characteristics. MOENCH: I try to add depth to every character. Hadn’t he been portrayed as a hardboiled detective before me? I think they work well in comics. POWERS: What about your decision to allow the Spectre to exist physically apart from Corrigan? You write it so the two only have a certain amount of time that they can be apart, or they will both die. So is the Spectre a different entity, or is he Corrigan? MOENCH: They are still one thing, just separated.

Crypt of Corrigan Tomb of Dracula’s Gene Colan’s art was perfect for the mood of Moench’s Spectre. Original art to page 11 of issue #1, signed by Colan, with inks by Steve Mitchell. Courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

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Pardon Me, Madame (below) The controversial page from The Spectre #9 (Dec. 1987) where the Disembodied Detective encounters the Disrobed Diviner, Madame Xanadu. Art by Gray Morrow, with strategic coloring by Adrienne Roy. (right) The issue’s cover, by Mike Mignola. TM & © DC Comics.

for his private detective agency, I really liked her character. And, as a fan reading The Spectre #1 when I was a freshman in high school, I felt as if it were the beginning of a TV show since this was a great intro issue. I especially appreciated the way you introduce Kimmie, and we see the story through her eyes. She’s such a well-rounded character, and I think it’s very progressive, in that Corrigan’s “costar” is Asian American. How do you remember her? MOENCH: It was no big deal to me. I had this argument with a conservative ex-friend. I went off on this thing, arguing that liberals are always right. It just takes 20 to 30 years for people to figure it out. We were right about equal rights for African Americans, Native-American rights, the environment, rights for women, the Vietnam War, equal pay for work, the Iraq War, climate change now, and right about everything but way ahead of the curve. I don’t know why that is. But anyways, having Kimmie being Chinese was just part of my natural writing process that reflected my liberal viewpoint. In fact, with Master of Kung Fu, I wrote Leiko Wu for ten years before this starting in 1973. POWERS: When you were conceptualizing Kimmie’s character, did any of those old black-and-white movies with the good-girl Friday trope influence you? MOENCH: Oh, the wise-cracking dames, absolutely! Boy, those old screwball comedies were great. The women characters were every bit as equal as the men. How did we get away from that? Why did we need the ’60s? It seemed like in the ’30s people had it right. POWERS: Kimmie’s definitely a strong character. Based upon the quirky fun of the Annual’s (1988) “Private Lives” backup story, “Fruitful Multiplication,” she could hold her own as a character. [I show Doug the Annual.] MOENCH: I remember this being cute and fun. She was my favorite, I can tell you that. I’d hang out with Kimmie any day! POWERS: In regard to some readers criticizing her characterization, do you have any thoughts on the pair of readers in the letters page to The Spectre #19 (Oct. 1988), who were commenting on the first page of the backup and thought that it was questionable when Kimmie is literally on her hands and knees scrubbing the floor of Jim Corrigan’s office? MOENCH: Corrigan hired Kimmie. Someone has to do the work, and he probably wasn’t going to clean anything, so how does it make it sexist? As liberal as I am, I do not like political correctness when it is taken to extremes. So, in the case of Kimmie scrubbing the floor, do you want me to turn her into a guy for the time it takes to scrub it? POWERS: I guess you’re right. That does sound silly. So what about your choice to make Madame Xanadu a supporting cast member? MOENCH: I can’t imagine anything sexier than a gypsy fortune teller. She’s barefoot with dangly earrings and décolletage. Come on! POWERS: So, is Jim Corrigan living your fantasy? MOENCH: Well, I guess so. I didn’t think of that consciously. POWERS: In issues #7 and 8 (Oct.–Nov. 1987), which Cam Kennedy drew, you are channeling a Silver Age story with Zatanna’s body parts showing up in different areas, while the villain, Wotan, is taking over the parts that he has stolen. Tonally, it is very different than the rest of the series. Any thoughts on that? MOENCH: I probably thought, “Let me do a Silver Age thing.” I tried to keep myself interested and amused. That is what a lot of the changes are. I was probably like, “Let me try something else.” I constantly had to change things up or you just get stale. Or you end up doing whatever another writer does and quit the book. Once I got on something, I never wanted to quit, but, once it started feeling stale, I knew I had to change it. POWERS: We’ve seen Zatanna’s body being fragmented in these two issues, so what about Madame Xanadu being presented as nude in issue #9 (Dec. 1987)? You didn’t really have a Comics Code Authority watching over you, so how do you work with something like that on a book like The Spectre? MOENCH: That’s where the big problem with Gray Morrow’s naked Madame Xanadu comes from with the nudity in this issue. I kept trying to explain, “Okay, this doesn’t have the Comics Code, so it will get through as there is no one to get through, but we are not putting a ‘Suggested for Mature Readers’ label on The Spectre, which would be fine if you want to do that.” But they wouldn’t do that with any acutely DC characters, meaning for characters like the Flash, Superman,

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Batman, Wonder Woman, and the Spectre. Vertigo later could, but not with the main DC characters. Regardless, you have pencils, inks, and coloring, all of these stages. When the pencils came in showing Madame Xanadu unclothed, I called Greenberger and said, “What the hell is Gray doing? If you don’t fix her being naked, this is going to be so horrible.” He replied, “Oh, Gray’s amusing himself. Once it goes to inks, he will fix it.” Just by fluke, I happen to be up there in the DC offices when the inked pages came in. I showed Greenberger that she was still naked in the inks. He said, “Yeah, oh, well, he was not supposed to do that. Don’t worry. We will fix it in the coloring.” I said that there is no color dark enough to cover the black India ink! You can’t do this. So at all three stages, I warned them that you can’t do this, and it got to print, and all of these mothers had a fit and threw the fit at the comic-shop owners. DC had all this blowback from the comic-shop owners. The underground comics would be in the back room. The only way they know it is safe to sell it to a kid is because of the Mature Readers label. Greenberger can’t say he wasn’t warned. That drives me crazy. Afterwards, DC was really upset. Maybe Greenberger did not get fired, but he got called on the carpet. And the sales went down after this issue. POWERS: Thanks for the background on that situation! Around this period of the book, you also start to have Kimmie and Madame Xanadu flirting with Corrigan and the Spectre respectively, and, in issue #9, you pretty much present Madame Xanadu having sex with the Spectre!

MOENCH: Okay, maybe she was feeling ecstasy, but they weren’t really having sex. They were feeling love, but it is not physical. POWERS: But, Doug, with the mist-like form of the Spectre floating around her body in the issue, aren’t you suggesting that she is making love to him in some sort of way? MOENCH: The way I did it, a mother flipping through the issue would never see a thing that would alarm her. A kid who was too young for this kind of stuff wouldn’t be able to see it, but anyone over the age of knowing what is going on would be able to handle it. POWERS: Is this the idea of her making love to a man, or is it perhaps more of a spiritual thing? MOENCH: Madame Xanadu is making love to a ghost. Even with her naked, you are not seeing pornography-like penetration because that is not happening. But it is making her feel like that and more. Like this is better than a f**k! POWERS: What about Corrigan and Kimmie becoming a couple at the end of this issue? Were you going to hold off on this romance, because it felt like the 1980s television show Moonlighting for a long time? MOENCH: Yes. It was deliberate. Slowly but surely we would reveal this. Each issue, I would advance the relationship a quarter of a millimeter, very deliberately. POWERS: Two issues later, one of the most horrifying moments of your Spectre run occurs in issue #11 (Feb. 1988). You have this character, Deschanta, who is a member of the Cult of the Blood Red Moon. She sort of looks like Grace Jones and is part of a truly shocking scene.

Justice League Dark Moench’s Spectre series tied in to DC crossover events Millennium and Invasion! (left) Spectre #11 (Feb. 1988) cover by Jerry Bingham. (right) Issue #23 (Holiday 1988) cover by Chris Wozniak. TM & © DC Comics.

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On pages 7–8, she goes into a bedroom to meet a demon and lets him peel the skin off her face. MOENCH: You know why the scene is red like that? They thought it was too yucky, and they wanted to put this dark color over top to cover up as much as possible. But they never learned. You can’t cover up ink lines. They are trying to subdue it, but, in some ways, it is freakier. There is no way to cover up Indian ink. Nothing is dark enough. POWERS: This is a shocking theme for DC Comics, maybe even for any horror comic. MOENCH: This is the kind of thing where I would see the art and say it is easy for me to say peel a woman’s face off, but actually seeing it being drawn, I knew it was radical, but I didn’t know it was like that. POWERS: On panel 6 of page 8, Deschanta even says to the demon, “Yesss… Now kiss me, Master… to the bone.” MOENCH: That’s because there is no Comics Code, but I didn’t go further than that because there is no Mature Readers label. She could just be happy. It doesn’t have to be sexual ecstasy. POWERS: Is she happy? There is this look of sadness on her face as she looks through her now-sagging skin on page 22. MOENCH: I assume that she is having profound regret. Any time you sell yourself to the Devil, I suppose that is a bad move. POWERS: Speaking of Madame Xanadu and magic, for the “Major Arcana” storyline that ran in issues #12–15 (Mar.–June 1988), what made you decide to involve a theme of Tarot cards? Did you feel that you wanted the readers to be aware of them? MOENCH: Well, I suppose it was when I decided to use Madame Xanadu, who practices scrying and is a jack-of-all-trades in the fortune-telling business. “Major Arcana” is a Tarot card term. It sounds to me like I had a specific card in mind for each issue. I don’t know if they were meant to be educational, but I wanted to introduce readers to this cool thing called Tarot cards.

Face Off The gruesome skin peel scene, on page 8 of Spectre #11 (Feb. 1988), by Moench and Morrow. Scan courtesy of Amanda Powers. TM & © DC Comics.

POWERS: On the subject of your readers, in issue #14 (May 1988), with pages 21–22, you are playing with their expectations when you had the Spectre punish a man through having him become part of the road. MOENCH: That’s a Michael Fleisher-type thing. I guess I gave the readers a little of it since I was aware that there were some who enjoyed Fleisher’s stuff. I would prefer not doing that version of [Spectre] as a writer. It was too powerful and too sadistic. I hate sadism. I hate torture. If you were the one being tortured, you wouldn’t be okay with it. POWERS: Probably not. With the next issue, #15 (June 1988), Gray Morrow closed out his run as artist on the book. MOENCH: God knows why he was allowed to do more issues. Wasn’t that after the naked Madame Xanadu in issue #9? He was allowed to keep doing it, but Greenberger was fired? POWERS: Well, officially, Bob Greenberger was listed as editor until issue #15, after which Andrew Helfer took over. MOENCH: I love Andy Helfer, but it’s a love-hate relationship. We’d have gigantic fights, and we would love each other afterward, but I ended up winning those fights, and I would say to him, “Look at all the time we just wasted!” POWERS: Did The Shadow, which Helfer was writing at the time, influence The Spectre from issue #16 (July 1988) onwards, most noticeably with issue #20 (Nov. 1988), in that Corrigan assembles a team of investigators who could be compared to Lamont Cranston’s operatives? MOENCH: No, I never read The Shadow. He really wanted me to. I would say to him, “Andy, what if I read it and don’t like it and our beautiful friendship goes up in smoke?” I don’t read the kind of books that I write. With Andy as my editor, it was the same as it was with Bob Greenberger— no rules, no putting the foot down, or saying I had to do this or that. That just never happened. POWERS: Also, once Helfer enters as your editor, Kimmie goes to the wayside. As we know, for the first year of the series, she has a lot more to do and say. She was the star for a time, yet, in later issues, she fades out. MOENCH: I don’t think Andy cut down on Kimmie, so it must have been me. I must have got sidetracked and planned on making her bigger and better than ever, and then I was off the book. POWERS: At the end of The Spectre #17 (Aug. 1988), on the last page of the issue, you had Jim Corrigan being shot pointblank, with a bullet coming out of his forehead.

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MOENCH: And then he becomes a zombie or something. I think I was definitely trying at “This will blow them out of their seats!” Yeah, but I knew because he was Jim Corrigan that he could be brought back again from the dead. And it was not like I shot Bruce Wayne in the head, and he could never be Batman again. POWERS: That’s right. You had him walking around as a zombie for issue #18 (Sept. 1988), and then you reincorporate the Spectre with him. But now they have to share the same flesh, and you would have imagery like the Spectre’s head coming out of Corrigan’s arm! MOENCH: I thought it was cool—kind of a literal visual way in which we could do it. POWERS: Getting back to issue #17, in the beginning of this tale, on pages 1–3, you have this cop doing coke and the Spectre punishing him. MOENCH: With the title, “Every Cop a Criminal,” I stole from Mick Jagger when he sings, “Just as every cop is a criminal and all the sinners saints.” That is from the Rolling Stones song “Sympathy for the Devil.” As for dirty cops, I don’t like them. How dare they bust someone for something they are doing? That is the apotheosis of hypocrisy. POWERS: At the same time, over the course of your run on The Spectre, in addition to having Jim Corrigan, who is already this kind of foil to Spectre, you gradually increase the role of another character, a grumpy cop, Lieutenant Peter Quarral, who first appeared in issue #2 (May 1987). What went into the conception of this character? MOENCH: I wanted to introduce another supporting character and get out of Madame Xanadu’s parlor a little more to broaden the story. I could always go back to her parlor, don’t forget. Hey, you have to get to the issue where I received my favorite compliment of all time. It was called “Jenny Dean is Dead,” and it was not a fill-in but a completely self-contained story. POWERS: Oh, yeah, I know what you’re talking about. Let’s see. [I scramble through my pile of Spectre back issues.] You’re referring to issue #21 (Dec. 1988)? MOENCH: That’s the one! I wrote this and felt very good about this tale because it was self-contained, and partly because it did something that I had never heard of being done at the time, which is a ghost appearing to a detective and imploring him to solve the mystery of her murder. I think that has since been done 80 billion times, but, as far as I know, this was the first time it had been done. And, after it came out, the phone rang, and it was Harlan Ellison, and he part of the human survival mechanism said to me, “Doug, I just want you to to believe in a god. When I became know that ‘Jenny Dean is Dead’ is by old enough to think things through, gray morrow far the single best comic I have ever I always felt that all you need is to do read, and I’ve read ’em all, kid!” And I the right thing, end of story, for no thought, “Wow, Harlan Ellison, one of my favorite ulterior motive or any other reason. science-fiction writers, said that? That’s not bad.” POWERS: Would you then consider yourself an existentialist? POWERS: That’s amazing! In this issue, you literally have MOENCH: No. I don’t think God ever existed, so how the soul of Jenny Dean stuck in Hell. could God be dead? I think God was made up by an MOENCH: That is the good twist. Not only is someone ignorant person way back when, by many ignorant asking to solve her murder, but she deserved going to persons. Look at how many gods there are! It’s just hell on top of it! ancient superstition as far as I am concerned—fantasy, POWERS: So, Doug, does this mean you believe in Hell? folklore, myth. MOENCH: No. Of course not. What evidence is there POWERS: Touching more upon issue #21, what are your that there is a Hell? Do you believe in Zeus? Osiris, Isis, thoughts on ghosts? Thor, or Odin? Mercury? Athena? You don’t believe in MOENCH: I guess I basically don’t believe in ghosts any of those gods! Why would you believe in any god? either. But I have had occasions to wonder. The whole Now, my wife goes to church every Sunday, so I am not truth or fiction, I don’t know what it is at this point, saying there is no reason to believe in God, because, that a person weighed while living 21 more grams than for a lot of people, there obviously is. But for a lot of the cadaver after death, it makes you wonder if invisible other people, those are bad-bad reasons. It might even be ectoplasm did leave the body. But I don’t know if that

Me, Myself, and I The magic of Gray Morrow’s artistry, in original art form, with a chat between Jim Corrigan and the Ghostly Guardian. Page 1 of The Spectre #12 (Mar. 1988), courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

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Mound of Skulls Charles Vess was among the stellar illustrators providing cover art for Moench’s Spectre book. From Heritage’s archives, original cover art to issue #14 (May 1988). TM & © DC Comics.

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is true. My mother was totally convinced that she saw ghosts all the time. She was Scottish, believed in ghosts. In England, Scotland, Wales, a lot of them believe in ghosts. POWERS: Continuing with this theme of weird stuff that shows up in your storylines during your time on The Spectre, in issue #22 (Winter 1988), you present cattle mutilation. Tonally, this issue is in the Southwest, which is cheery, bright, and completely different from its typical New York setting. We even see a cow falling out of the sky on pages 1–2. What influenced this change? MOENCH: I was thinking, “Let’s open the book up and do a different feel for a while.” POWERS: Then, what led to this choice? MOENCH: You know where this came from? I love Andy Helfer. We didn’t always fight all the time, and we would always end up talking. I remember talking to him on the phone about UFOs and cattle mutilation, and he said I should put it in The Spectre and do a story about it. I was just “conversating” with him. I also was obsessed with UFOs when I was 14 years old, and again when I was 20-something, and then again when I was 30-something. Not right now, but the ’90s was a big time for UFOs and me. There was always three, four, five years where I wouldn’t care, and then I would get obsessed again. Maybe I will again. POWERS: Interesting. You have also men in black in this and the following issue, #23 (Holiday 1989). MOENCH: The men in black go all the way to the ’50s. I think it was Albert Bender who wrote a book or an article about the men in black, and he was followed everywhere, something really weird about them. It became a very early part of UFO lore, and it came back in the ’80s, secret underground sites, etc. I remember John Keel, another paranormal writer and an investigator, was obsessed with men in black. I love Keel’s books. POWERS: With the next issue, #23, an Invasion! crossover, you show the Spectre meeting up with mystical DC characters such as Deadman, Dr. Fate, the Phantom Stranger, and the Demon. MOENCH: That was one of the first things I was supposed to do with DC in 1982. I told them that I would love to do a Justice League of the weirdo characters, but I never got to do the actual book. POWERS: Sort of like Justice League Dark? MOENCH: Yeah, but I never got to do the actual book. POWERS: You also brought in these five operatives a few issues earlier with The Spectre #20. Let’s see, Bug McGrew, Cynner, who is Kimmie’s roommate, Betty Bumphus, Hassan Al Armani, and Gina Sayles are all added to the mix. MOENCH: I wanted a big supporting cast, and I was probably thinking of Doc Savage and Uncle Scrooge McDuck, who has his three grandnephews, Huey, Dewey, and Louie. They were adventure stories, so I wanted to add a bunch of new characters to The Spectre in one fell swoop. POWERS: Since you have issues #22–23 set in the Southwest and the last two in Bucks County, were you tired of centering the book in New York? MOENCH: Not tired, but feeling the need for variety. I wanted to have it breathe more. That is where the cattle mutilations were occurring, or it was said they were. They were happening here in Pennsylvania, too. I didn’t know that at the time. POWERS: I also noticed that with the “Ghosts in the Machine” storyline that runs in issues #24–29 (Feb.–Sept. 1989), the look of the book radically shifts once more. I mean, even with the cover of issue #25 (Apr. 1989), you have the Spectre featured as literally the ghost in the arcade machine, which reminds me of the work you did on Electric Warrior. What influenced you to make this choice to bring computers into The Spectre?

MOENCH: Yeah, this is kind of wonky. Tom Artis, who penciled this story arc, was really into UFOs. He’s a black guy, and I remember him talking about aliens, and I was, too. Somehow he said something that implied that you people (white people) are aliens from somewhere else. I think he was kidding, but partly serious. I remember liking working with him, but I thought that he should take two steps back. He was just a little too close in the frame of the image, but other than that, he had an appealing style. POWERS: With issue #26 (May 1989), on pages 5–6, you present these two newscasters, and the guy then turns into this freaky-looking dude with his tongue hanging out, and he takes a giant wooden mallet and bangs it upon the woman’s head, and her eyes pop out. So you have cartoon violence in this issue, which is kind of like Robocop. Where did your ideas stem from to create such a disturbing cartoon image? MOENCH: Well, I grew up on Warner Bros. That was way before Robocop. POWERS: Up until this point, your run on The Spectre has featured themes dealing with faith, religion, ghosts, and now on the other side of all that is electronics, which this story addresses. Were you trying to attract new readers? In other words, this is a book about the supernatural, but you are bringing the ghost into the machine. MOENCH: I was trying to keep The Spectre going. The book was a big hit, and, after issue #9, as I had mentioned earlier, the comic’s sales went way down and never went back up to where it had been. The comic stores were afraid to order too many copies. Some would sell no issues. That was the way it was back then. POWERS: That’s a shame. I notice that toward the end of your run, DC didn’t even tell the readers that the book was getting canceled.

Man on the Street Spec makes roadkill out of a foe in Moench and Morrow’s Spectre #14 (May 1988). Scan courtesy of Amanda Powers. TM & © DC Comics.

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Men in Black Pages 4 and 12 from Moench’s “The Cow Butchers” in The Spectre #22 (Winter 1988–1989), from the writer’s UFO storyline. Art by Bart Sears and Mark Pennington. Scans courtesy of Amanda Powers. TM & © DC Comics.

Plus, they were losing any connection with them because they took away the letters pages for the final two issues. MOENCH: I don’t know… bad move. POWERS: In issue #31 (Nov. 1989), your last, the book just ends on an ambiguous note, with one of Corrigan’s investigators, Gina, asking in reference to this final adventure on the last two panels on page 22, “It… it’s over, isn’t it?” to which Corrigan responds, “Over, Gina? For Betty’s sake… Let’s hope not,” with the last phrase being featured in a closeup of his distraught face. MOENCH: I tried to write that it was over for the fans and the readers. POWERS: For these final two issues of the series, #30–31 (Oct.–Nov. 1989), you wrote a ghost story set in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. The story focuses on one of The Spectre’s supporting-cast investigator members whom you created, Betty Bumphus, who’s overweight and has multiple personalities. Yet you are giving a sympathetic vision of her. MOENCH: This is back when heavy people were rather rarer than now, and I guess choosing the Bucks County setting and the horror tone for this two-parter was more about variety. I don’t remember when I found out that the book was over. It was a surprise, and I had not prepared for it to end there, but I had enough time to do at least that small ending. But, overall, I don’t have any regrets from working on The Spectre. POWERS: That’s good to hear, but I have to be honest with you in that I’m also curious to know what you thought about John Ostrander’s coda for Kimmie and the cast of investigator characters you later developed for Corrigan’s detective agency in issues #6–7 (May–June 1993) of his Spectre run. In particular, with issue #7, Ostrander retroactively reveals on page 10 that Madame Xanadu and Kimmie were the same person and that Xanadu had taken a part of the Spectre’s power that he had given her to create “sendings,” who had been your extended cast of five characters, and an ectoplasmic version of Jim Corrigan who could exist outside of the Spectre. MOENCH: Sometimes I hear, “Have you read so and so’s version of Moon Knight?” and I’m like, “Why would I read it?” I am either going to hate it and get pissed off or read it and get jealous. But I am probably going to hate it, even if it is well done, because it is somebody messing with my stuff. For some reason, writers feel like they have to undo what other writers do. This is what is natural for a writer. They feel like they have to obliterate or explain it away as if it were a dream. This is stupid to me. If you don’t like it, ignore it and start your new version! For fans of Doug Moench’s interpretation of the Spectre, they were delighted in seeing him return to the character with a two-part story featured in Batman #540–541 (Mar.–Apr. 1997). I likewise wish to mention that at one point during my conversation with Doug, I had pointed out to him that his name appears on a matchbook that is featured on page 7, panel 4, of The Spectre #12 (Mar. 1988) in the form of a mysterious business (or product) called “Munckin’s Moenchies.” I then tried to push him to define what Munckin’s Moenchies exactly were to him, but he only responded, “I never wrote that into the script. It was probably Gray Morrow himself. Yeah, artists always do stuff like that. You know, I was at a convention with a pal, waiting in line for an awards ceremony where Bill Sienkiewicz and I were going to receive an award for Moon Knight. Someone in front of me asked if I had ever met Harlan Ellison. He then tapped on the guy in front of him, and it was my favorite sci-fi writer standing right in front of me. Ellison turned around and told me, ‘All my life I have tried to be a mensch, and you were born one.’ This is a Yiddish and German word that means ‘good person.’ ” On this positive note as I close out this piece, I would like to mention that for my wife and me, Doug Moench is truly worthy of Harlan Ellison’s vision of his surname, since he was once more kind enough to welcome us into his wondrous home and share his unique perspective on the supernatural superhero who is the Spectre! TOM POWERS, a college writing instructor, is the author of Gender and the Quest in British Science Fiction Television: An Analysis of Doctor Who, Blake’s 7, Red Dwarf and Torchwood (McFarland, 2016).

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Writer John Ostrander and artist Tom Mandrake’s 1992 The Spectre ongoing series earned them accolades for their fresh take on Jim Corrigan, the hard-boiled (but very dead) human host of DC’s avenging spirit. Outside of Corrigan, the series also portrayed an array of fully realized supporting characters dealing with issues of faith, loss, love, bigotry, and redemption. I had the pleasure of interviewing Ostrander and Mandrake via email throughout September and October of 2017. Upon rereading the series in preparation for our conversation, I found The Spectre to be just as powerful of a read today as it was upon its release 25 years ago. – Shannon E. Riley

by S

hannon E. Riley

SHANNON E. RILEY: John, Tom—thanks so much for offering to revisit your seminal work on The Spectre. I’d like to go back to the very beginning: How did the two of you get paired up on the series? Did you pitch it together? What was your brief from DC editorial? JOHN OSTRANDER: Tom and I had been working on Firestorm and I was leaving after issue #100. Tom thought he would stay on but then DC decided to cancel the book when I left, so Tom became available. Tom and I really work well together, so I wanted to see what else we could get into. We had earlier talked about how much we both loved the Spectre and this seemed like the time to pitch it. The Spectre had a series only about a year or so before that, so DC was initially a little leery of doing another. Also, some had said that you couldn’t do an ongoing series about the Spectre—he was too powerful. You needed to reduce his powers to have a viable threat go up against him. We disagreed; downgrade the Spectre’s powers and you would lose the visuals that helped sell the character. We convinced DC that we had a clear vision and could make the character work. With the help of our editor, Dan Raspler, we got the go-ahead from DC, and our only brief was “Don’t screw up.” TOM MANDRAKE: As John says, we pitched the idea, and although editorial at DC felt the Spectre was a onenote character that couldn’t support an ongoing series, Dan Raspler helped us push it through. John and I talked at length about what we wanted to do and he wrote a great, concise proposal. I still have a copy of it! I worked up some character sketches of Corrigan, the Spectre, [supporting characters] Amy, Nate Kane, and Danny Geller. I ran across those recently as well; the characters weren’t quite jelled but I can see I was on the right track. RILEY: Did you feel beholden to any of the established Spectre mythology—specifically Michael Fleisher and Jim Aparo’s take on the character from their 1974–1975 Adventure Comics run? OSTRANDER: Yes and no. I’m a big fan of continuity in the broad sense, but I didn’t want to be tied to chapter and verse. We felt that if we included elements from as many of the previous incarnations as we could, then we were playing fair. MANDRAKE: I’m a fan of the various incarnations of the Spectre but also aware that over the many years and wide

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Man with a Mission The tormented Jim Corrigan, on page 1 of Spectre #1. Note the nod to Spectre co-creators Jerry Siegel and Bernard Baily (misspelled as Bailey). TM & © DC Comics.

variety of creators who worked with the character there not how to draw it. I used to joke that I would plot the was never any continuity regarding his powers or focus story and then Tom would draw the story he felt I should regarding his mission. That made it considerably have plotted. Not entirely true, but Tom did have the freedom to adjust the plot for the best visual and easier to feel we could redefine the Spectre. that was okay. The goal for both of us was, I loved the Fleisher/Aparo issues, but they “What is the best story that we can make?” aren’t the model for our series, just part of the background we could draw from. Ego always was to take a backseat to story. RILEY: You’d previously collaborated That’s not to say we didn’t have disagreeon Grimjack and Firestorm the Nuclear ments, but we both share a similar story sensibility. Besides, I knew that so long as Man, and a few years after this series I threw in an occasional flaming zombie, you’d work together again on the Tom would be happy. Martian Manhunter monthly. Clearly, MANDRAKE: By the time we got to you two have discovered a synergy. The Spectre, John and I were cruising as a What can you recall about your creative creative team. We knew how to get process for The Spectre? How collaborative was it? the best out of each other. The process john ostrander OSTRANDER: I think that synergy is usually involved long discussions on based on respect for each other’s talents. the phone or in person about where We were working plot first and I would Superman Celebration, Metropolis, IL. we wanted to go with the story, [then] break down the story into page and panels. I told Tom story pitches to the editor [Dan Raspler or Peter Tomasi] what the story was but, outside of an occasional suggestion, before John would write the plot. We always worked plot-style, but there was never any restriction on how much or how little needed to be said, so plots could be extremely loose if scenes were largely visual or relatively intricate if subtleties in storytelling needed to be expressed. We were lucky to have editors that trusted our abilities. If I suddenly had an idea for a great visual I felt free to throw it in, knowing that John would fly with it and make it even better… and yeah, flaming zombies. RILEY: Tom, The Spectre is distinct in that it looked like nothing else DC Comics was publishing at the time. Some of your more macabre scenes actually reminded me of Hieronymus Bosch’s hell panel from The Garden of Earthly Delights triptych. Were there particular artists or works that influenced you? Did you have a vision for how you’d approach the book when you landed the assignment? MANDRAKE: I was definitely not trying to fit into any style “look of the day” at the time, any more than I am now. The cover for The Spectre #1 (Dec. 1992) was a visual statement regarding how I wanted to approach the book. I know I did more roughs, redesigns for that cover than any one I’ve ever done with the exception of the cover for Kros: Hallowed Ground. The Spectre was a classic old-school superhero surrounded with horror. I stayed with “superhero horror” throughout the series. There are little tributes and outright homage/swipes to many artists from outside the comics field throughout the series, from Hieronymus Bosch, Goya, and N. C. Wyeth to Thomas Nast. There were many fine artists who worked on the Spectre before I came along including Murphy Anderson, Neal Adams, and Jim Aparo. I wasn’t trying to echo their work, I was doing my own interpretation of the character. I had an idea where I wanted to go when we were developing the concept for the Spectre series. My thought process was basically that Corrigan was dead, therefore he had no corporeal body. His clothes, the Spectre, and his uniform were all a construct, ectoplasm. So why was the Spectre wearing any clothes at all? I arrived at two reasons: 1) DCU wouldn’t allow for a naked superhero, and 2) Corrigan as a character would naturally clothe himself. So even as the Spectre he would maintain some sort of modesty. A redesign didn’t make sense and I really wasn’t interested in making the attempt as I did like the classic costume. However, I did quietly ease away from the pointed, structured collar in favor of a cowled hood. RILEY: The cover art was as integral to the vibe of the book as your interiors. By my count, you produced 12 covers out of the 63 issues (I’m including the #0 issue published in support of DC’s 1994 Zero Hour event). The works of luminaries like Rafael Kayanan, Alex Ross, Timothy Truman,

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Wiping Out Gun Violence Bill Sienkiewicz, Charles Vess, Kelley Jones, and Brian Bolland also graced the series’ covers. Can you recall how artists were chosen (top) The Spectre’s wrath, by Ostrander and Mandrake, for the covers? Did you or John have a hand in selecting them? from Spectre #6 (May 1993). (bottom) An undated sketch MANDRAKE: We were lucky to have a series of incredible artists creating covers for The Spectre. I had nothing to do with who by Tom Mandrake, from the archives of Heritage Comics got the call but I remember making suggestions occasionally. Mostly I would just advocate for more glow-in-the-dark covers, Auctions (www.ha.com). which I loved doing but it was always a bit of a struggle to make Spectre TM & © DC Comics. it happen. There was never any problem getting cover artists— it seemed everyone had at least one Spectre cover in them! RILEY: The depictions of the Spectre’s vengeance could be pretty brutal, from his battle in hell with Shathan the Eternal from issue #5 (Apr. 1993) to the destruction of Vlatava, an entire war-torn country, in issue #13 (Dec. 1993). Likewise, the subject matter was rather heavy for a mainstream comic book, ranging from issues of faith and religion to rape, AIDS, and homophobia. Were you at all concerned about pushback from DC editorial? Were there any instances where you were asked to change some storylines or scenes? OSTRANDER: There was no pushback from DC that I remember. This was a very experimental time at DC. Vertigo was just starting and the books that caused that were already out there. I don’t think we were any more out there than Alan Moore’s Swamp Thing. DC had already blown up the multiverse in Crisis on Infinite Earths and I already was shaking up things with Suicide Squad. We fit right in with the times. MANDRAKE: Well, I’ll disagree with John a little bit here. The Spectre was part of the regular DCU and while Vertigo titles had considerably more freedom to experiment, we were still playing a somewhat more delicate balancing act. Of course, this may have been hitting more on the visual end of things, as I did have an occasional act of violence turned back to me at the pencil stage with a request to tone it tom mandrake down. I remember some discussion regarding #13 and what happens to Vlatava. It wasn’t © Luigi Novi / a “You can’t do that” moment, more of a Wikimedia Commons. “We’d rather not go there but it does fit the story, so if that’s what you want…” kind of thing. RILEY: John, you really put the character of Jim Corrigan through his paces. The series posits that Corrigan is now world-weary, full of despair, and also quite dead since the 1940s, having been stuffed in a cement-filled drum and tossed in a river by gangsters. You note in your November 2015 ComicMix Spectre article that Corrigan, a take-no-prisoners police detective, was “hard, tough, and not afraid to use violence and even death to achieve justice.” Can you talk a bit about how Corrigan’s worldview influenced his actions as the Wrath of God? OSTRANDER: Corrigan was the linchpin to our interpretation of the Spectre. The Spectre himself, we didn’t change; it was Corrigan we altered. Too often he was depicted as this nebbish, just the vessel in which the Spectre hung out. He was like the Spectre’s Batcave with less personality than the Batcave. Also, somewhere along the line it was decided that Corrigan was alive again. For me, that took away a lot of his tragedy. No, we said Corrigan was dead since the 1940s although at times he thought he was alive. I looked at depictions of plainclothes detectives from the 1930s, including early Dick Tracy. In those days, Tracy was brutal. He was as hardboiled as the villains he faced, and I felt Corrigan would have been the same. A very black-and-white thinker, and that fed into his actions as the Spectre. He has the power of God but the way he used his powers was limited to his vision and understanding as a man. The evolution of that vision is what unites our entire run together. RILEY: Social worker Amy Bietermann, introduced in issue #1, becomes a key figure in the evolution of Jim Corrigan. Being HIV-positive, Amy suffers from extreme loneliness and finds a kinship with Jim. They embrace in a particularly touching scene in issue #6 (May 1993). Amy ultimately helps Corrigan start to rediscover aspects of his humanity, and he comes to love her. Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 73

Enough is Enough! The Ghostly Guardian’s had his fill, as shown on the opening pages of Ostrander and Mandrake’s Spectre #17 (Apr. 1994). This issue also features DC’s god of vengeance, Eclipso. TM & © DC Comics.

Tragically, Corrigan is unable to save her from the hands of serial killer Daniel Geller. What can you tell me about the genesis of Bietermann’s character? Was her fate at the end of issue #12 (Nov. 1993) always part of your plan? OSTRANDER: Actually, it was. We kept telling the readers that she would die (supposedly from AIDS) and people were still stunned when we really did it. We knew if we didn’t develop Amy as a character, make her important to the book, then her death wouldn’t have the impact we wanted. Also, AIDS was much more of a death sentence when the story was first published; not so much now. RILEY: John, you created the character of Father Richard Craemer in Suicide Squad #10 (Feb. 1988). Father Craemer becomes a major supporting character in The Spectre, assuming the role of Corrigan’s spiritual advisor. Given your theology background, was Father Craemer a stand-in for you and your views on God and religion? OSTRANDER: Yes and no. One thing we should clear up—me and theology. Yes, I did go to seminary for one year, my freshman year in high school. For the most part, it was just a normal high school. Maybe a touch of religion, but not really theology. The interests I had in questions of redemption and salvation and forgiveness and sin really stem from my Roman Catholic upbringing and eight years of Roman Catholic grade school, and it was those questions that brought me to and would shape my treatment of the Spectre. Father Craemer was a favorite character of mine, created by me and my late wife, Kim Yale, for Suicide

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Squad; at that time, religious characters, to the extent they were depicted in comics at all, were generally narrow-minded bible thumpers or Elmer Gantry types. That was not Kim’s or my experience. Her father was an Episcopal minister and I had an aunt who was a Roman Catholic nun and both were really good people. We wanted a character that would reflect that; in fact, his name was taken in part from both their names. I suppose to a great degree Father Craemer was my religious stand-in, but he wouldn’t have represented just me—he was Kim as well. Most of all, he was his own character. With Amy’s death, I felt that Corrigan needed someone else to talk to, and Craemer’s time with the Squad would give him something of a background to deal with… well… such an out-of-the-ordinary situation as being the father confessor to the Spectre. I think we can all agree that’s not normal. RILEY: As a young comic-book fan slowly coming to the realization that I was gay, I was particularly moved by The Spectre #45 (Sept. 1996). In “Acts of God,” the Spectre comes across a small group of religious zealots beating a gay couple, killing one. The assailants tell the Spectre that the men are abominations in the eyes of the Lord and “have no place in the natural order of things.” The Spectre leaves the men to be dealt with by the authorities, enraging the man who is now left to grieve the death of his partner. What follows is Jim Corrigan being challenged by Father Craemer for his 1940s views on homosexuality, with Craemer asking, “What if I told you I was gay? Queer? What would

you do?” The story is incredibly well done, and in my mind, ahead of its time. I was also heartened to read the responses to the tale in the letters columns of issues #51–52 (Mar.–Apr. 1997). John, what prompted you to write the story, and were you surprised by the response? OSTRANDER: Before I wrote comics professionally, I was a professional actor in Chicago and knew many folks who were gay or lesbian. They were people—some better than others, some not. People who happened to be gay or lesbian. As with Father Craemer, Kim and I wanted to represent people as we knew them. The secret in such cases is simply not to write the stereotype but to write characters who happened to be LGBTQ. I had seen accounts of gays being beaten or killed by extremely homophobic men. When I write, I prefer to write questions rather than answers. I wanted the questions you mentioned to be asked because they were being asked not only of Corrigan but of the reader. That was—and is—important to me. RILEY: The new Mr. Terrific, Michael Holt, is introduced in issue #54 (June 1997). In “The Haunting of Jim Corrigan, Part 3: Atonement,” you revisit the Gerry Conway JLA/ JSA murder mystery that began way back in Justice League of America #171–172 (Oct.–Nov. 1979). In the storyline, the Golden Age Mr. Terrific is killed by the Spirit King, who’s secretly inhabiting the body of Jay Garrick. The Spirit King ultimately escapes and the tale is never really resolved… until almost 20 years later in The Spectre. What can you recall about Michael Holt’s origins? And what was it about Gerry Conway’s JLA tale that stuck with you over the years? OSTRANDER: What stuck with me was the fact that the story was never completed. I read it at the time and I wanted to know “And then what happened?,” and that was never told. So I was in a position to tell it and I did. I was thinking about that and thinking about the origin tale for the original Mr. Terrific. It occurred to me that the

essentials would work very well in the modern day if you put it in an African-American neighborhood and if the new Mr. Terrific was black as well. That intrigued me as well. Mr. Terrific was supposedly one of the smartest guys on the planet. I really liked the idea that the smartest guy on the DC Earth was black. That made a very cool statement, in my opinion. Tom got on board with a really slick reimagining of the costume, and we were off to the races. RILEY: Mr. Terrific has since gone on to become a key player in the modern DCU, appearing in comics, animation, and even video games. Tom, any memories you can share around your costume design for Mr. Terrific? Did you look to his Golden Age predecessor, Terry Sloane, for inspiration? MANDRAKE: I have a love/hate relationship with the original Mt. Terrific because of his absolutely terrible costume design. Without a doubt it is so bad it’s good, with the weird combination of lapels, booties, cowl, tights, and topped off with that FAIR PLAY logo stamped across his belly. His origin goes back to the same era as the Spectre’s, so they have that in common. Conceptually we wanted to move far away from that look, as the concept

Fair Play (left) Michael Holt, the new Mr. Terrific, in his first appearance, from Spectre #54. (right) A gruesome encounter on this original art page from The Spectre #59 (Nov. 1997). Courtesy of Heritage. TM & © DC Comics.

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“Final Rites” Jim Corrigan hangs up his Spectre cowl in The Spectre #62 (Feb. 1998), the last issue of the Ostrander/Mandrake series. TM & © DC Comics.

for the new Mr. Terrific was far removed from the original Mr. Terrific in all respects, so a non-costume costume seemed like the right place to start. Since then the character has enjoyed an interesting evolution in his look that has blossomed into full superhero costume. Fun to watch! RILEY: The series had a finite ending, which proved to be a happy one for Jim Corrigan. “Final Rites” sees Corrigan giving up being the Spectre to pass on to the afterlife in issue #62 (Feb. 1998). A host of supporting characters, including the Justice Society of America and Father Craemer, are present to help Jim pass on. It’s suggested that Jim is reunited with Amy Bietermann as he steps into the golden light of Heaven. An epitaph reading “James Corrigan, Servant of God” magically appears on his tombstone as Father Craemer slowly departs from the graveyard. It’s a very touching and satisfying ending for a long-suffering character. Had you envisioned this conclusion for The Spectre when you started? And were declining sales a factor in the series coming to an end? OSTRANDER: Almost every comic that runs for a long time will experience declining sales. Maybe they can recover, maybe not. DC saw the writing on the wall but the decline was gradual enough that they could give us a year to wrap the whole thing up and they also let us end the series the way you describe. That’s huge; the Spectre was an important figure and had been around for decades. By allowing us to end the series as we did, we were really able to make it one long story. The entire series was about how Corrigan grows and changes. By literally giving up the mantle of the Spectre, Corrigan can surrender his anger and personal desire for revenge. That’s a big and bold thing for a company like DC to do, and I appreciate it and salute them for it. MANDRAKE: Releasing Corrigan from the Spectre was part of our original proposal (I had to double-check myself on that by rereading the original proposal this morning!). How that would be accomplished changed over time. The original concept involved giving the Spectre a new human persona. Ultimately we made a better choice by just

releasing Corrigan, leaving a clean slate for whomever picked up the character next. No one believed we could get 12 issues out of the Spectre when we started, but we wrapped it up on our own terms after 62! RILEY: In 2014, DC Comics released two volumes collecting the first 22 issues of the series, The Spectre Vol. 1: Crimes and Judgments and The Spectre Vol. 2: Wrath of God. Are additional volumes planned? OSTRANDER: I can only hope. MANDRAKE: I think it would be a shame not to finish reprinting the series! RILEY: You launched a successful Kickstarter campaign for your original graphic novel, Kros: Hallowed Ground, in 2015. Can you synopsize the story for BACK ISSUE readers? OSTRANDER: Um, I’ll try. The story combines the American Civil War, specifically the Battle of Gettysburg, with vampires. Kros is a dampyr—a vampire hunter who is himself half-vampire. Thus, he shares many of their strengths and few of their weaknesses. As Kros describes himself, he is a monster hunting monsters. I figured that the major battles of the Civil War would attract any vampire in the area, who would feed on the wounded at night. So you would have a battle during the day and a different one at night. Kros is expecting only a few vampires because, in general (according to us), vampires prefer to hunt alone. Unfortunately, he discovers a virtual army of them pulled together by one Bully Boyd, a former NYC gang leader. They are more than Kros can handle and so he must put together an army of his own to help destroy Boyd and his gang. Kros is not used to fighting with allies and doesn’t have the best social skills. RILEY: Should we expect more collaborations from you two in the near future? What’s in the works—any more Spectre tales to tell, perhaps? OSTRANDER: I love working with Tom; something special always results. We have other Kros ideas; we’ll just have to see if we can realize them. If a Spectre story came up and Tom was available, I’d love to do it. I have an idea for an Elseworlds story involving the Spectre and Batman which I think we could really make sing. You listening, DC? MANDRAKE: I’m always ready for another Ostrander/Mandrake collaboration! It was recently pointed out to me that it was 25 years ago last month that The Spectre #1 hit the stands; we should touch base with that again! Special thanks to John Ostrander and Tom Mandrake for generously offering their time for this article. SHANNON E. RILEY has been reading and collecting comics since 1978, when his dad bought him his first book, Detective Comics #475. Find him on Instagram @ShannonERiley and on Facebook at facebook. com/shannoneriley.

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PS: In BACK ISSUE #101, Robert Menzies refers to the subject of his article throughout as “Sir Paul McCartney.” It is not necessary to do this, and quite jarring to read. Paul McCartney was knighted in 1997, so for any event before this he need not be called by his current title. The Beatles, after all, were and always will be John, Paul, George, and Ringo—not John, Sir Paul, George, and Ringo. In the British press, the usual style guide when discussing someone with a knighthood is to start off by using their title—so “Sir Paul McCartney,” but to subsequently refer to them as either “Paul” or “McCartney.” In the UK we also use the term “Macca.” As far as I’m aware, he doesn’t seem to mind.

Send your comments to: Email: euryman@gmail.com (subject: BACK ISSUE) Postal mail: Michael Eury, Editor-in-Chief • BACK ISSUE 118 Edgewood Ave. NE * Concord, NC 28025

Find BACK ISSUE on

POWER GIRL BOOSTER

I enjoy BACK ISSUE and I have a suggestion for a future issue. You should do a major cover feature on Power Girl. I heard Wally Wood had a hand in creating the character, with an assist from another artist. (Maybe Ric Estrada? An article might clear this up.) – Jerry (no last name on letter)

CLASH OF THE TITANS

Just a quick plug for a highly recommended book: Slugfest, by Reed Tucker. Released last October by Da Capo Press, this 286-page, $27 (US) hardcover ventures “inside the 50-year battle between Marvel and DC.” Tucker’s definitely done his homework here, interviewing numerous comics pros past and present and researching dozens of reference sources for his compelling narrative of how comics’ Big Two have spent a half-century mostly at each other’s throats. Once I started reading this, I had a hard time putting it down, thanks to Tucker’s energetic writing and the wealth of information he shared (some of which I never knew). I’m honored to have a couple of quotes therein, and a few BACK ISSUE articles are cited as well. Thanks, Reed. Much success with the book!

TOD SMITH AVAILABLE FOR COMMISSIONS

Ye ed neglected to mention in BI #102’s Vigilante article that those interested in obtaining a commission from Vigilante artist Tod Smith may do so by contacting him at todsmith@cox.net.

MORE PRAISE FOR BI #100… AND McCARTNEY COMMENTS

Turning the spotlight in BACK ISSUE #100 on the supporting cast—the people who loved comics so much they devoted their time to sharing that love with others—was a generous gesture. I’ve never written a fanzine myself, but as a fan and reader of many years standing, I felt myself included in the issue. Fandom of all sorts has a poor reputation with the traditional press. It’s all too easy to sneer at devotees, particularly when it’s assumed that this devotion is focused on something not really worthy of merit. BACK ISSUE #100, with its painstaking history of some of the leading fan literature, did a lot to redress that balance. As someone who can recall a time before the Internet, when people communicated by post, and connecting with like-minded souls was more difficult, I can appreciate how much work went into these pioneering magazines. It was evident on every page. Of course, it won’t have escaped readers’ attention that many of these fanzines now change hands for considerably more money than many of the comics to which they were devoted. An irony if ever there was one. Congratulations again on your 100th, Michael; you deserve every plaudit you get. BACK ISSUE has been a jewel in the comics crown for every one of its 14 years and 100 editions. I look forward to each new issue as much, if not more, as I did when you first launched. – Simon Bullivant

Jerry, Power Girl’s roots are mentioned in this issue’s lead article on the JSA. But we’ve already done an article (albeit not a cover feature) on Power Girl’s history, back in BI #33. The print edition of that issue is sold out, but you can get it in digital form via twomorrows.com. There you’ll find, as mentioned in the JSA article, artist Joe Orlando’s original costume design for Kara of Earth-Two.

SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT

Thanks for the sweet SOTI article and dedication to Miguel [Ferrer]. All good memories. Onwards, – Bill Mumy

SOMETHING BORROWED…

Re: BACK ISSUE #101: “Something borrowed, something blue.” Roger Stern said, “Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue” (I believe, in Comics Buyer’s Guide) when asked by an interviewer if Superman would be coming back (following the Man of Steel’s death in Superman #75 in 1992). Robert Menzies’ quote in his second article in BACK ISSUE #101 reminded me of this. – Francis A. Rodriguez

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY?

[Re BI #101: Rock ’n’ Roll Comics:] No Ford Fairlane? – Delmo (The Saint) Walters, Jr. No room! But he’d be a candidate for a future Comics in Hollywood issue…

LEGION OF LETTERHACKS

Can you consider putting together a BACK ISSUE that focuses on letters pages that feature letters written by readers who went on to become pros (including McGregor, Sanderson, Macchio, Michelinie, Duffy, Mullaney, etc.), and those who were simply prolific and insightful, including Ed Via and TM Maple? When I go through back issues these days, I go straight to the letters pages, especially to see if any printed were written by any of the people specified above. Do letters from pros strongly hint at the way they would do things when they became pros? Also, from them and prominent writers such as Via and Maple, I learned great practical criticism, and critical thinking, and I gained an expanded vocabulary. Obviously, the letters pages meant a lot to someone such as myself, and I even had a bunch of letters printed myself, starting from about 1980 or so, and over a five-year period. – Paul Carbonaro

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 77

While it’s not commercial enough to warrant an entire issue, your suggestion is intriguing and would make a great article or series of articles. BACK ISSUE writers, if any of you are interested in this subject, please contact me privately.

(TRADE) PAPERBACK WRITER

Good issue. Unique idea to focus on Rock ’n’ Roll and comics. Always thought it was odd that the Beatles never had an ongoing comic. – Stephen Carlock, via Facebook

BLOWING US A KISS

Many thanks for mailing the latest BACK ISSUE, and a fine issue it is, well packed with superb features. And Mr. Menzies always contributes some great work, due no doubt to thorough research. Great stuff. A big bonus for me in this issue: the retrospective of KISS. I grabbed that first issue when it arrived with the artwork material for the British weeklies from Marvel’s New York office. Being associated with the music business, it was a real discovery. A new rock band— and in a comic-book format! I will now look at those early issues with a new insight. So thanks for that, and always a pleasure to help with any recollections of Marvel UK history. – Alan Murray

PLENTY OF FLASH BUT NO SPIRIT

Loved the BACK ISSUE #101 Rock ’n’ Roll Comics issue, but I do have one complaint. Why, oh why, when you did the otherwise-excellent interview with Sam Jones about his Flash Gordon movie, did no one think to ask about the TV pilot for The Spirit he did back in 1987?! I caught the 74-minute movie during an unannounced surprise showing on a local Canadian station way back in the day and enjoyed the heck out of it. Sure, it was a bit campy in a sincere and surprisingly sexy sort of way, and the low budget kept letting glimpses of California slip in to what was an otherwise earnest attempt to recreate Will Eisner’s noir cityscapes à la Tim Burton’s later Batman flick, but Jones was perfect in the part of the two-fisted, blue-suited masked detective (much better than he was as Alex Raymond’s aristocratic space hero, although his performance there does have its robust charms). And hey, the script was written by Steven E. de Souza, who wrote 48 Hrs. and Die Hard, so it had more going for it than the average cop show of the era. And it was certainly better than that unholy overblown mess Frank Miller came up with back in 2008… I’m pretty sure that Denny Colt never said, “I’m gonna kill you all kinds of dead!” in the original comic strip! And what’s with the wildly overacting Samuel L. Jackson wearing all those outlandish costumes when all Eisner ever showed of the Octopus was a purple pair of gloves? Ah, well, at least Warner Archives has released Jones’ Spirit on DVD, and it is certainly worth taking a look at for those who are interested in tracking it down. Now, if they’d only do the same for his wonderfully wild post– apocalyptic Mad Max-meets-Knight Rider series The Highwayman…. – Jeff Taylor

We’re happy with Robert Conte’s crowd-pleasing KISS coverage too, Alan. Speaking of that, here are two pages of KISS art submitted by Robert a bit too late for publication in BI #101, but too cool not to share: The black-and-white splash is completed line art from the 1994 KISStory book. It also appeared as an official KISS poster. The color page is from Comic from The Elder, published in the 1999 KISS: The Official Psycho Circus Tour Magazine. In both instances, the art was published in color. Art/colors rendered by Scott Pentzer (http://scottepentzer.deviantart.com/),

with words by Spike Steffenhagen. Both scans courtesy of Robert V. Conte (www.robertvconte.com).

78 • BACK ISSUE • Golden Age in Bronze Issue

Meanwhile, I concur with Doug Abramson about the Legion of Super-Heroes’ five years later run: It was great! At first, I couldn’t stand it and dropped it after the fifth issue, but a couple years later, I tried it again and loved it! Had to scramble to find all the back issues. An in-depth article and interviews with the Bierbaums and, of course, Keith Giffen about the run would be greatly appreciated in this corner! – Pierre Comtois Pierre, looking ahead, I’m planning to include that incarnation of the Legion in a future edition of BI.

I LOVE ROCK ’n’ ROLL

I just wanted to say thanks for creating issue #101 of BACK ISSUE. I expect it’s the superhero-focused issues that do best for you, but this was a real treasure trove for me: the Bolan, Bowie, McCartney, Harvey comic connections; the Alice Cooper Marvel Premiere issue I snapped up as a kid; the Monkees and Saturday morning supergroups… just perfect. I received it when I had lots of heavy deadlines, but couldn’t put it down. (I always tend to fantasize that you have a small British comics section and found myself filling it, this time, with the great ’60s Monkees strip from Lady Penelope weekly, the Beatles story serialization from Look-In, etc.). It’s such a great topic. I just wanted to say thanks for making it exist. – David Savage, via LinkedIn David, I hope you enjoyed writer Robert Menzies’ new “UnKnown Marvel” department, which debuted this issue. It will reappear in issue #110 and stick around for a while after that. Perhaps Robert can explore some of those British-produced music comics in future installments.

Dan Johnson, who interviewed Sam J. Jones during a panel at the Fayetteville Comic Con, had hoped to also discuss The Spirit but only had time to address Flash Gordon. Dan will be interviewing Mr. Jones about The Spirit for ye ed’s other magazine, RetroFan, for its Spring 2019 (#4) issue.

GOLDEN YEARS

Just a note to say I continue to enjoy reading every issue of BACK ISSUE even if some of its subject matter doesn’t interest me directly. It’s still fun to fill in the missing spaces of my collecting years with info on titles that never attracted me. (Of course, BACK ISSUE also features plenty that does!) Case in point: issue #96. I still recall the anticipation for the release of the first issue of Marvel Fanfare with its Michael Golden story. After that, I eagerly awaited the title to fulfill its promise of giving fans off-trail stories by the top artists and writers. Unfortunately, for this reader anyway, that promise was never fulfilled. I wanted to like the book but for some reason, the contents never grabbed me. But maybe I got a clue from BACK ISSUE #96, which seemed to indicate that Fanfare became a dumping ground for unused fill-in stories, new artist tryouts, and other aborted projects. Which goes to show that even when BACK ISSUE might not necessarily be covering anything a reader is interested in, it still serves a valuable service in reminding us why we skipped certain books back in the day (or, conversely, remind us of good books that we need to reassess!). Archie and related characters TM & © Archie Comic Publications, Inc. All Rights Reserved. BACK ISSUE TM & © TwoMorrows.

Loved the Hawkman edition of BACK ISSUE magazine [#97, “Bird People”]. Do you think that there is any chance of seeing a feature on the Spectre in the ’70s and ’80s? Perhaps this could be supplemented with an issue of Alter Ego focusing on the Spectre’s ’40s and ’60s runs similar to what was done with Flash and Green Lantern. Thanks. – James Rutledge

GIMME THE GHOSTLY GUARDIAN!

James, while a Spectre AE/BI crossover is a very good idea, as you’ll note in this issue we’ve now covered both the Doug Moench Spectre run of the late ’80s and the John Ostrander/Tom Mandrake Spectre run of the early ’90s. Also, we featured the Michael Fleisher/ Jim Aparo Adventure Comics Spectre series back in BI #78. Next issue: Archie Comics in the Bronze Age! Archie’s ’70s and ’80s adventures, STAN GOLDBERG and GEORGE GLADIR interviews, Archie knock-offs, Archie on TV, and histories of Sabrina the Teenage Witch, That Wilkin Boy, Cheryl Blossom, and Red Circle Comics. Featuring the work of CRAIG BOLDMAN, RICH BUCKLER, DAN DeCARLO, FRANK DOYLE, HOLLY G!, VICTOR GORELICK, GRAY MORROW, DAN PARENT, HENRY SCARPELLI, LOU SCHEIMER, and more. Featuring an Archies cover by Dan DeCarlo, one of the celebrated artist’s final illustrations before his 2001 death. Don’t ask—just BI it! See you in thirty! Your friendly neighborhood Euryman, Michael Eury, editor-in-chief

Golden Age in Bronze Issue • BACK ISSUE • 79

ctive owners. RetroFan is TM TwoM

orrows Inc.

The Ultimate Look at a Bronze Age Legend! From a seminal turn on Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes and creating the lost world of the Warlord, to his work on Green Arrow—first relaunching the Green Lantern/ Green Arrow series with DENNY O’NEIL, and later redefining the character in Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters—MIKE GRELL made an indelible mark at DC Comics in the 1970s and ’80s. But his greatest contribution to the comics industry was in pioneering creator-owned properties like Jon Sable, Starslayer, and Shaman’s Tears. Grell even tried his hand at legendary literary characters like Tarzan and James Bond, adding to his remarkable tenure in comics. This career-spanning tribute to the master storyteller is told in Grell’s own words, full of candor, optimism, and humor. Lending insights are colleagues PAUL LEVITZ, DAN JURGENS, DENNY O’NEIL, MIKE GOLD, and MARK RYAN. Full of illustrations from every facet of his long career, with a Foreword by CHAD HARDIN, it also includes a checklist of his work and an examination of “the Mike Grell method.” It is a fitting tribute to the artist, writer, and storyteller who has made the most of every opportunity set before him, living up to his own mantra, “Life is Drawing Without an Eraser.” By DEWEY CASSELL, with JEFF MESSER.

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Edited by Back Issue’s

MICHAEL EURY! RETROFAN #1 cover-features an all-new interview with TV’s Incredible Hulk, LOU FERRIGNO, and introduces a quartet of columns by our regular celebrity columnists: MARTIN PASKO’s Pesky Perspective (this issue: The Phantom in Hollywood), ANDY MANGELS’ Retro Saturday Mornings (Filmation’s Star Trek cartoon), ERNEST FARINO’s Retro Fantasmagoria (How I Met the Wolf Man—Lon Chaney, Jr.), and The Oddball World of SCOTT SHAW (the goofy comic book Zody the Mod Rob). Also: Mego’s rare Elastic Hulk toy; RetroTravel to Mount Airy, NC, the real-life Mayberry; an interview with BETTY LYNN, “Thelma Lou” of The Andy Griffith Show; the scarcity of Andy Griffith Show collectibles; a trip inside TOM STEWART’s eclectic House of Collectibles; RetroFan’s Too Much TV Quiz; and a RetroFad shout-out to Mr. Microphone. Edited by Back Issue magazine’s MICHAEL EURY! (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 • (Digital Edition) $4.95 • FIRST ISSUE NOW SHIPPING!

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ALTER EGO #153

ALTER EGO #154

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Remembering Fabulous FLO STEINBERG, Stan Lee’s gal Friday during the Marvel Age of Comics—with anecdotes and essays by pros and friends who knew and loved her! Rare Marvel art, Flo’s successor ROBIN GREEN interviewed by RICHARD ARNDT about her time at Marvel, and Robin’s 1971 article on Marvel for ROLLING STONE magazine! Plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

ALLEN BELLMAN (1940s Timely artist) interviewed by DR. MICHAEL J. VASSALLO, with art by SHORES, BURGOS, BRODSKY, SEKOWSKY, EVERETT, & JAFFEE. Plus Marvel’s ’70s heroines: LINDA FITE & PATY COCKRUM on The Cat, CAROLE SEULING on Shanna the She-Devil, & ROY THOMAS on Night Nurse—with art by SEVERIN, FRADON, ANDRU, and more! With FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

Golden Age artist/writer/editor NORMAN MAURER remembered by his wife JOAN, recalling BIRO’s Crime Does Not Pay, Boy Comics, Daredevil, St. John’s 3-D & THREE STOOGES comics with KUBERT, his THREE STOOGES movies (MOE was his father-inlaw!), and work for Marvel, DC, and others! Plus LARRY IVIE’s 1959 plans for a JUSTICE SOCIETY revival, JOHN BROOME, FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY and more!

All Time Classic Con continued from #148! Panels on Golden Age (CUIDERA, HASEN, SCHWARTZ [LEW & ALVIN], BOLTINOFF, LAMPERT, GILL, FLESSEL) & Silver Age Marvel, DC, & Gold Key (SEVERIN, SINNOTT, AYERS, DRAKE, ANDERSON, FRADON, SIMONSON, GREEN, BOLLE, THOMAS), plus JOHN BROOME, FCA, MR. MONSTER, & BILL SCHELLY! Unused RON WILSON/CHRIS IVY cover!

Fantasy/sci-fi illustrator DONATO GIANCOLA (Game of Thrones) demos his artistic process, GEORGE PRATT (Enemy Ace: War Idyll, Batman: Harvest Breed) discusses his work as comic book artist, illustrator, fine artist, and teacher, Crusty Critic JAMAR NICHOLAS, JERRY ORDWAY’S regular column, and MIKE MANLEY and BRET BLEVINS’ “Comic Art Bootcamp.” Mature Readers Only.

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BACK ISSUE #61: LONGBOX EDITION

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STANDARD-SIZE REPRINT OF SOLD-OUT #61! Covers every all-new ’70s tabloid, with checklist of reprint treasuries. Superman vs. Spider-Man, The Bible, Cap’s Bicentennial Battles, Wizard of Oz, even the PAUL DINI/ALEX ROSS World’s Greatest SuperHeroes editions! With ADAMS, GARCIALOPEZ, GRELL, KIRBY, KUBERT, ROMITA SR., TOTH, and more. ALEX ROSS cover!

ARCHIE COMICS IN THE BRONZE AGE! STAN GOLDBERG and GEORGE GLADIR interviews, Archie knock-offs, Archie on TV, histories of Sabrina, That Wilkin Boy, Cheryl Blossom, and Red Circle Comics. With JACK ABEL, JON D’AGOSTINO, DAN DeCARLO, FRANK DOYLE, GRAY MORROW, DAN PARENT, HENRY SCARPELLI, ALEX SEGURA, LOU SCHEIMER, ALEX TOTH, and more! DAN DeCARLO cover.

BRONZE AGE AQUAMAN! Team-ups and merchandise, post-Crisis Aquaman, Aqualad: From Titan to Tempest, Black Manta history, DAVID and MAROTO’s Atlantis Chronicles, the original unseen Aquaman #57, and the unproduced Aquaman animated movie. With APARO, CALAFIORE, MARTIN EGELAND, GIFFEN, GIORDANO, ROBERT LOREN FLEMING, CRAIG HAMILTON, JURGENS, SWAN, and more. ERIC SHANOWER cover!

SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE 40th ANNIVERSARY! CARY BATES’ plans for unfilmed Superman V, ELLIOT S. MAGGIN’s Superman novels, 1975 CARMINE INFANTINO interview about the movie, plus interviews: JACK O’HALLORAN (Non), AARON SMOLINSKI (baby Clark), JEFF EAST (young Clark), DIANE SHERRY CASE (teenage Lana Lang), and Superman Movie Contest winner ED FINNERAN. Chris Reeve Superman cover by GARY FRANK!

HALLOWEEN! Horror-hosts ZACHERLEY, VAMPIRA, SEYMOUR, MARVIN, and new interview with our cover-featured ELVIRA! THE GROOVIE GOOLIES, BEWITCHED, THE ADDAMS FAMILY, and THE MUNSTERS! The long-buried Dinosaur Land amusement park! History of BEN COOPER HALLOWEEN COSTUMES, character lunchboxes, superhero VIEW-MASTERS, SINDY (the British Barbie), and more!

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BRICKJOURNAL #53

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #17 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #18

KIRBY COLLECTOR #74

KIRBY COLLECTOR #75

VIDEO GAME ISSUE! Get ready as LEGO designers TYLER CLITES and SEAN MAYO show you LEGO hacks to twink and juice your creations! Also, see big bad game-inspired models by BARON VON BRUNK, and Pokemon-inspired models by LI LI! Plus: Minifigure customizing from JARED K. BURKS, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd’s DIY Fan Art, & more!

The legacy and influence of WALLACE WOOD, with a comprehensive essay about Woody’s career, extended interview with Wood assistant RALPH REESE (artist for Marvel’s horror comics, National Lampoon, and underground), a long chat with cover artist HILARY BARTA (Marvel inker, Plastic Man and America’s Best artist with ALAN MOORE), plus our usual columns, features, and the humor of HEMBECK!

Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

FUTUREPAST! Kirby’s “World That Was” from Caveman days to the Wild West, and his “World That’s Here” of Jack’s visions of the future that became reality! TWO COVERS: Bullseye inked by BILL WRAY, and Jack’s unseen Tiger 21 concept art! Plus: interview with ROY THOMAS about Jack, rare Kirby interview, MARK EVANIER moderating the biggest Kirby Tribute Panel of all time, pencil art galleries, and more!

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID! The creators of the Marvel Universe’s own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and TV interviews, painting a picture of JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s relationship—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Includes a study of their solo careers after 1970, and recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, & JOHN ROMITA SR.

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