Dance Central July / August 2018

July/August 2018

Dance Central A Dance Centre Publication

v

Boundaries

Bounded Ecstasies A conversation with Billy Marchenski Page 2

Contemporary Traditions A Roundtable Discussion Page 8

Welcome to Dance Central

Thinking Bodies A conversation with Billy Marchenski

AK: You were one of the first artists I spoke to when I took over Dance Central, as an example of a performer working across the boundaries of dance, theatre and writing. That was nearly seven years ago, and I am curious to find out how the work has changed you, or how you have changed the work, and how you experience the role you play now in the dance and theatre community.

BM: Being a bit older and having a bit more experience, and looking back at shows of the past years, I realize that what I am really looking for is some kind of experience of ecstasy — whether it is though movement or words or through a simple task.

AK: Where are you finding it?

BM: I have been lucky; I have had many experiences where I was so immersed or overwhelmed, or possessed

Welcome to the July/August 2018 issue of Dance Central, which appears after a delay for which we apologize, necessitated by health reasons, but all is well and on we go! This issue features a conversation with Billy Marchenski that follows up on the very first of our series on 'Thinking Bodies' and explores how an artist views a career spanning nearly twenty years, what it takes to be of service,

BOUNDED ECSTASIES

by something, that I felt I was part of something beyond myself, or part of an experience of transformation. I find that in many places: with Radix (Theatre) where it was a concern with TBD, and even Assembly— although that project began by poking fun at the very idea of the transformational self. I also find it in a lot of the work I have been doing recently with Justine A. Chambers and Kokoro Dance, where I have often entered a state of heightened awareness and transformation, usually by doing very

where to look for ecstasy as a performer, and what

simple tasks and movements; it is probably a combination

it means to be a dancing parent.

of repetition and the difficulty of physically accomplishing a task.

The second feature is a set of notes from a round table discussion that took place at Scoatiabank

AK: Is it mainly an internal experience or do you think the

Dance Centre in April of 2018, organized by

audience shares it in some way? I am thinking for example

Colleen Lanki of TomoeArts and Linda Blankstein,

about method acting which may communicate a feel-

Associate Producer with The Dance Centre, on the

ing but the audience will never know what the performer

question of how the division between 'traditional',

is using as an internal image to achieve the effect. What

'classical' and 'contemporary' dance informs and

you are describing sounds more akin to rituals that bring

often limits the perception and discourse of dance.

everyone into a shared ecstatic state.

As always, we thank all the artists who have

BM: It depends. With Radix we often talk about immersing

agreed to contribute and we welcome new writ-

the audience, or in fact getting them to be the perform-

ing and project ideas at any time, in order to con-

ers, with us just facilitating, witnessing, and guiding them,

tinue to make Dance Central a more vital link to

using the structure of the text and the movement so that

the community. Please send material by e-mail to

they can experience some kind of transformation. But you

members@thedancecentre.ca or call us at

need some kind of container to help them go through that.

604.606.6416. We continue to look forward to the

For myself I find it really exciting how much intimacy you

conversation!

can have when communicating with strangers, and that's

Andreas Kahre, Editor

what I look for.

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Thinking Bodies A conversation with Billy Marchenski

observing someone acting and it feels deeply 'authentic', and if you ask them about it, they tell you they are just turning their head to the left and then tap their toe;

AK: When we spoke seven years ago, an important quality you described in your work was how you approach performance differently as a dancer, an actor, and as a writer.

Have these entities grown closer together, or become more distinct, or have they blended into some sort of superhuman amalgam?

BM: I worry less about the distinction between them, and I try to be honest as to where my curiosity is leading me, so sometimes it is a piece of text and often it is an image, or I may just see someone do something in the street; a movement or a gesture and I stop and wonder how that person did that thing I feel baffled by.

AK: Speaking of being baffled, I remember how you were fascinated by your then newborn daughter and her way of acquiring movement, going through all the stages that you had learned about during your training. In the seven years since then, I imagine a similar process must have gone on for you both with language.

BM: Yes, it was as if she found a kernel of what language was and then began to improvise from there. Maybe it was the same with movement, where she figured out the basic idea of how it worked in her body and began to improvise — or 'play'— and then, through trial and error, found out how she liked to sing, or move. I don't think she is the only child who does this, but she really just tries different things and adjusts to the reaction she gets from us or from others. I remember looking at her as a baby, with a big smile on her face, and it was as if she was trying it on, and based on our reaction she figured out that 'oh, if I giggle or smile like this, they smile back and that feels really good, and so I will do it again.'

AK: That would suggest that what we call 'authenticity' functions as a feedback loop, which is curious given the status it has acquired as an expression of the 'true' self; something that is not contaminated by interaction with others...

BM: I agree, even though 'authenticity' and especially 'identity' are such slippery terms that touch on areas and feelings that people have very strong convictions about. Of course one person's reality is not like another's, but you may find yourself 4

Dance Central July/August 2018

they are thinking about it in a purely formal way. It is almost as if the more authentic you try to become the more false it reads.

AK: It is interesting to see how the notion of authenticity in the context of cultural, ethnic, or gendered identity includes the need to define what is, and what is not part of this authentic self, essentially creating a kind of 'branded self', and in the process causes us to lose as much as we gain.

BM: I think it was the Japanese theatre director Tadashi Suzuki, who uses extremely demanding physical training methods, who said something like 'the only time you see the personality of someone is when you take away all of their personality.' His training is very militaristic, with everyone working in a line and attempting to be in unison. He says that that is when you see people for what they really are; when you "burn away the

"What I am really looking for is some kind of experience of ecstasy, whether it is through movement or through words or through a simple

surface layers."

AK: Or is what you see then just a personality altered by duress? As with any ritual designed to put humans in extreme conditions, like boot camp or cult initiations, when you brutalize people, do you get an 'authentic' self or do you get what you have created — a traumatized self that is susceptible to being dominated?

task."

Speaking of extreme physicality, you have been working with various forms of Butoh for a long time, which is of course known for its extreme physicality. And having worked as a performer with many different artists for almost twenty years, how do the changing physical demands inform your experience?

BM: My body really hurts, and I am tired. Gigging is different than being with one company, and there is a certain level of exhaustion that comes with starting a project from scratch with a different group of people over and over again. It is exhausting even if you are in a full time company.

AK: And yet you have decided to continue working in some form of 'gigging mode' these past twenty years.

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Dance Central The Dance Centre Scotiabank Dance Centre Level 6, 677 Davie Street Vancouver BC V6B 2G6 T 604.606.6400 F 604.606.6401 info@thedancecentre.ca www.thedancecentre.ca Dance Central is published every two months by The Dance Centre for its members and for the dance community. Opinions expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent Dance Central or The Dance Centre. The editor reserves the right to edit for clarity or length, or to meet house requirements.

Editor, Art Director & Layout Andreas Kahre Copy Editor Hilary Maxwell Contributors to this issue: Billy Marchenski, Rosario Ancer, Kasandra "La China", Jai Govinda, Margaret Grenier, Anusha Fernando, Lesley Telford, Colleen Lanki, Jo Leslie, Linda Blankstein, Mirna Zagar, Andreas Kahre.

Photography: Chris Randle (cover), Erik Zennstrom, the shooting gallery Dance Centre Board Members Chair Ingrid M. Tsui Vice Chair Josh Martin Secretary Sheila G. Evani Treasurer Annelie Vistica Directors Layla Casper Carolyn Chan Eve Chang Jai Govinda Megan Halkett Anndraya T. Luui Jessica McMann Dance Foundation Board Members Chair Linda Blankstein Secretary Anndraya T. Luui Treasurer Samantha Luo Directors Trent Berry, Sasha Morales, Janice Wells, Andrea R. Benzel Dance Centre Staff: Executive Director Mirna Zagar Programming Coordinator Raquel Alvaro Marketing Manager Heather Bray Digital Marketing Coordinator Lindsay Curtis Associate Producer Linda Blankstein Venue and Services Administrator Robin Naiman Development Director Sheri Urquhart Lead Technician Chengyan Boon Accountant Elyn Dobbs Member Services and Outreach Coordinator Hilary Maxwell The Dance Centre is BC's primary resource centre for the dance profession and the public. The activities of The Dance Centre are made possible bynumerous individuals. Many thanks to our members, volunteers, community peers, board of directors and the public for your ongoing commitment to dance in BC. Your suggestions and feedback are always welcome. The operations of The Dance Centre are supported by the Canada Council for the Arts, the Province of British Columbia, the BC Arts Council, and the City of Vancouver through the Office of Cultural Affairs.

Thinking Bodies A conversation with Billy Marchenski BM: Yes, but I have also been working with Radix since I came out of school almost twenty years ago, and I love the kind of relationship you can have with people that you

BM: There is a wonderful place in the interior, near Arm-

know so well, as artists and as people, that allows you to

strong, called Caravan Theatre, which has been around for

get the heart of things really quickly. I like that relationship,

about forty years. The last time I went there, I became fas-

and I like where work can go inside of that. I am also still

cinated by statues made from roadkill that were created

committed to Kokoro with whom I have worked for five

by my designer friend Stephan Bircher. They got me really

or six years. I go to class and dance in their studio. Part of

interested in animals and their carcasses. I found it bizarre

me has always been looking for that long-standing artistic

and fascinating how they remain where they died or, as

relationship, because I find it so rich — and at the same

their skeletons are laid out in nature, they are dispersed

time that kind of relationship with a choreographer or

by other animals, and how differently humans treat their

artistic director can be confusing because you go through

bodies. I started thinking about my own relationship with

so many different dynamics, as you put things on them as

death, and about members of my family whom I have

a leader, and they put on you, perhaps as a potential muse.

seen embalmed and made–up, in very expensive coffins.

There is a lot of room for that type of peer dynamic to

The difference fascinates me. I have also been reading

become very beautiful — or very toxic. At the same time, I

Antigone, with its chorus that goes on about how humans

really like working with new people.

are the most ingenious and skilled and masterful creatures, able to conquer any animal, while there is a woman

AK: Who else are you working with these days?

Dance Central July/August 2018

trying to bury her brother's body with a handful of dirt. So the point of inquiry is a question about the relationship we

BM: Besides Radix, which is ongoing, and Kokoro, I re-

have with ourselves, and with our own bodies.

cently worked on a piece with Diego Romero, who has been dancer for a number of years and is now emerging as

AK: Speaking of the body, seven years ago we talked

a choreographer/creator. I love his humour and his irrev-

about the difference between coming out of a dance

erence to the form, and I am really excited about what he

show and a theatre piece. At the time, we spoke of it in

is doing and where he is going. It is also very interesting to

terms of the 'dancer body' and the 'actor body' with their

work with someone who is almost twenty years younger.

shared and different qualities, which you described as

I am also working with The Biting School, Aryo and Arash

two different entities that you had to attend to in different

Khakpour, who are very different in their training and ap-

ways, with the latter needing to return to a psychologically

proach, but are both interested in combining physicality

centred state, and the former having to repair the physical

and language. There are more and more people blending

damage. Have they changed, and are they closer to each

those in interesting ways now.

other or further apart now? Do you maintain the rituals, habits, or behaviours related to those bodies?

Butoh walk, where you are pulling all your ancestors behind you,

and you are imagining all the people ahead of you, and you are taking all of that with you in time."

AK: Your first full-length work was Slowpoke, as I remember, inspired by a visit to the Chernobyl nuclear exclusion

BM: They are not much different any longer, or at least not

zone. What have you been doing since?

as much as they were. At the time we spoke, I think I was still trying to find myself a bit more in those worlds, and

BM: Last fall I made a piece with Alison Denham and Bev-

to understand what I was doing there, but I have stopped

erly Dobrinsky which we are now planning to tour, and in

thinking about that. Being older and having a child, I am

a couple of weeks I am starting a new process with Molly

less worried about my identity. I am still trying to analyze

McDermott and Japanese Butoh dancer, Daiichiro Yuyama.

what it is I am trying to say, but I have more of a feeling of

I had made some short works before Slowpoke, but that

understanding why I am there, and I know what I want to

was the first piece with a 'real' budget that involved other

express — whether it is dance or theatre, film or TV.

professionals, and this new piece will be similar in format.

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AK: What is the point of departure?

"You are in the past and the future at the same moment.

In that sense, it is a lot like a

continued on page 12

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Critical Movements A Dance Centre Roundtable

Decolonizing the

Contemporary

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Dance Central July/August 2018

The Round Table, which took place on April 20th, 2018,

to a traditional, imposed form and canon of move-

was organized by Colleen Lanki and Linda Blankstein, as

ment. Similarly, Indian 'classical' dance, according to

part of TomoeArts' 2018 residency through The Dance

Jai Govinda, refers to a strongly established form with

Centre, and included a group of dance artists/artistic

a profound link to classical music and narrative struc-

directors: Rosario Ancer (Flamenco Rosario), Kasandra

tures. 'Traditional' dance, by contrast, means a form

"La China" (Kasandra Flamenco), Jai Govinda (Mandala

that is rooted in the customs of a people — which as

Arts, Margaret Grenier (Dancers of Damelahamid), Anu-

Govinda noted, would include such styles as hip hop

sha Fernando (Shakti Dance), Lesley Telford (Inverso

— or for example the eight traditional dance styles of

Productions) and Colleen Lanki (TomoeArts), as well as

the Indian subcontinent, which continue to evolve

Jo Leslie as moderator and Linda Blankstein and Mirna

each in their own context.

Zagar, representing The Dance Centre But the use of the term 'traditional' frequently lacks

• What makes a dance or a choreography 'classical', 'traditional', or 'contemporary'> • What can a process look like that allows audiences to perceive and understand work that is developed in the context of a traditional or classical form as contemporary – by which is to say that they are in fact new creations> • How do you educate your audience to know when something is evolving from a traditional form into a contemporary expression - in order to have an appreciation of groundbreaking and risk–taking development of the form>

The invitation was to enter into a dialogue about the

precision or an understanding of historical fact. For

relationship between so-called 'traditional' or 'classi-

example, as Rosario Ancer described, Flamenco

cal' forms, and 'contemporary' dance, particularly as

should be defined neither as a classical — in the sense

these distinctions and their underpinning assumptions

of stemming from the tradition of Spanish courtly

continue to create inequities in access to funding, train-

dances — nor as a traditional, or folk-based dance

ing and performance opportunities, and to an inclusive

form. Instead, it is a relatively recent development,

dialogue among artists and audiences.

evolving from its origins in the 1850s, along with its musical 'compass' and as such is really a modern

In order to explore these perceptions and to encourage

dance form. How and when 'modern' dances become

a critical discussion, three questions were presented to

'classical' brings up interesting questions in itself, as Jo

the participants:

Leslie pointed out, such as whether 'modern' techniques such Limón or Graham will eventually, or may

• What makes a dance/choreography 'classical', 'tradi-

have in fact already have become 'classical'.

tional', or 'contemporary'?

Colleen Lanki discussed how a form that is consid• What can a process look like that allows audiences

ered 'classical' is typically one that has been approved

to perceive and understand work that is developed in

and elevated by male arbiters in a Eurocentric model

the context of a traditional or classical form as contem-

of scholarship, while 'traditional' forms, by virtue of

porary – by which is to say that they are in fact new

having roots in non-Western cultural practices are

creations.

considered less relevant, even if they began as contemporary in their day. The term 'contemporary' has

• How do you educate your audience to know when

come to be identified with a privileged form based

something is evolving from a traditional form into a

on a Western perception of cultural value — often

contemporary expression - in order to have an appre-

in ignorance of the meaning and development of

ciation of groundbreaking and risk-taking development

non-Western forms that defy this binary interpreta-

of the form?

tion. This process of cultural validation is also often informed by a failure to recognize the significance of

There was agreement that the terminology is inher-

oral histories and lineages. It also separates forms into

ently problematic, especially when it serves to exclude

'traditional' or 'contemporary' based on their role in

certain practices from being perceived as contempo-

community, with greater artistic significance ascribed

rary. As Jo Leslie pointed out, in the Western context,

to the formality of performance over a shared com-

'classical' refers to a systematized way of learning and

munity experience.

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Margaret Grenier noted that by these standards, Northwest Coast indigenous dance is 'traditional' but not 'classical', as 'traditional' work emphasizes community involvement over rigour in training; it may just mean a gathering, parallel to the anthropological concepts of the 'primitive' which express a separation between traditional and contemporary, as socially constructed values. Having, or gaining access to training and to a form that contains a gap such as the potlatch ban is a particular challenge, she noted, and without access to older generations, 'revitalizing' a tradition is impossible without contemporary influence. Traditions also integrate 'contemporary' elements — she cited the example of button blankets — and emphasized that there is a responsibility in representing a form that is bigger than the self, for which training is the key.

When asked whether she felt included in the definition of contemporary Canadian dance, she responded that she did not; that the process may not be designed to delibera fight for self-expression on both fronts‚ that of the traditionalists in the indigenous community, and those in the contemporary dance community, when this is, or should not in fact be a dichotomy since everything is informed by the responsibility of contributing in a way not based on individual expression.

As Jai Govinda remarked, there is also a connection with spiritual values and rituals that are considered outdated by many, even if audiences and communities are interested in exploring forms of human expression outside of the 'self' — in other words outside of the Western, modern concept of the alienated individual. This spiritual dimension can of course be uncomfortable for a secular audience, especially when rituals are experienced as exclusive rather than inclusive, or when an appreciation of a dance form requires familiarity not only with the movement but with the musical forms it developed in parallel with. How

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Dance Central July/August 2018

let the meaning of that idea be determined by the artists,

meaning of a dance without an understanding of the

using whatever tools they might be to express them-

meaning of the music?

selves in a contemporary context. This would include the element of improvisation, which is not easily understood

Creation in this 'contemporary' model is rooted in the

without prior knowledge of the form (for example impro-

concept of an autonomous self that communicates an

vising with musicians in bharatanatyam). The perception

individual experience in relation or in opposition to es-

of what is contemporary of course also differs between

tablished norms. That separates it from traditions such as

cultures, and may or may not mean removing or reducing

Japanese nihon-buyo, which demand that an artist learn

traditional elements such as sets and costumes. In general

the form, first by copying, then may begin to express

there was agreement that, as another participant put it,

a personal aspect in the performance of the traditional

“Rather than being afforded the privilege of being deemed

material, and only then, at the third and final level is

contemporary, it should not be the form but the mentality

deemed fit to create in the form. The question is of

that determines where a work is situated."

course how audiences can become aware of the subtle differences between what is considered traditional and

As Leslie Telford pointed out, there are examples of this

innovative without an intimate knowledge of the form?

for instance in ballet, where the work of William Forsyth has been characterized as being 'contemporary creation

Jo Leslie directed the discussion toward the question

using a classical form'. At the same time, while ballet is

of how colonial experience intersects with authentic-

considered 'non-contemporary' by many, there is also an

ity, and the difficulty of maintaining and, in some cases,

assumption about its cultural positioning as privileged and

reviving traditional forms that have been lost or severely

part of establishment culture, leading her as a contempo-

impacted by colonization. In some instances, such as

rary artist to claim: "I am not a representative of classical

bharatanatyam a hundred years ago, or indigenous

dance, I am just a dancer!" Ballet training is also changing,

dance even now, the form had to be recovered. In other

as she noted in response to a question by Linda Blank-

contexts the form is part of a commercial enterprise that

stein, to include systems of imagery, that personal goals

controls who and how it is transmitted and presented,

matter more as training includes older dancers rather than

and might consider outsiders as a threat to its integrity.

the demands of a form-based technique, that improvisa-

Ethnicity is another important element, and one that

tion plays a larger role, and that there is a movement to

can be challenging for Non-ethnic practitioners (which

rethink what is 'disciplined' to allow for 'play' that includes

includes a number of the participants in the round table).

natural dynamics such as jumping, leading to initiatives

In the context of Northwest Coast indigenous dance, for

such as the Think Tank project.

example, there is both a movement to restrict access to outsiders — driven by a desire to preserve the authentic-

The structure of the funding system continues to play a

ity of the form — and a need to open the frame up and

large role in the process of exclusion and inclusion, and

make up for the loss of information, including the prac-

the discussion of issues of appropriation makes the situ-

tice of 'borrowing' dances, even if that means breaking

ation more complex. As Collen Lanki pointed out, a prac-

with protocol.

titioner's very body can become problematic in the eyes of those who view a 'classical' form as tied to a specific

Jo also asked how 'traditional' forms can develop without

ethnicity, which may cause them to be considered as ap-

losing artistic and cultural integrity, and at the same time

propriating—even if every aspect of their work follows the

grow to include new, broader audiences? How can

protocols of acknowledgment.

funders and institutions support their work and provide it a stronger basis? The answer, according to many of the

As Mirna Zagar noted, there is no standard model for

participants, would include a removal of the term 'con-

working outside of one's own ethnicity, but when you

temporary' from applications and jury selections, and to

have trained and become knowledgeable, and are com-

mitted to expanding how you express yourself in a form, it is not an act of appropriation. What sets it apart from monetizing something not your own is how you treat it, and how the community accepts it. Audiences can tell, she continued, and excellence, as Jai Govinda had pointed out earlier, is the best proof of commitment.

The discussion ended on a note of agreement— to continue the discussion, to make it accessible, and to invite audiences and the dance community to continue to inform themselves about these forms and disciplines, and their histories. Among all the diversity of practices it was notable how much of all of them were eager to share their knowledge and experience, and while this was hopefully just a starting point for a larger exploration, it showed how much passion and commitment these artists share in making their practice relevant to a contemporary audience.

Thank you to all.

Contemporary

ately exclude indigenous dance, but that it appeared to be

can 'contemporary' audiences enter into the deeper

Decolonizing the

Critical Movements Decolonizing the Contemporary A Dance Centre Roundtable

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Thinking Bodies A conversation with Billy Marchenski continued from page 7

I think I understand that I am there to be of service on some level, whether that is for healing, or for entertaining, or whether it is to be provocative, but it is essentially of mutual benefit.

AK: Do you experience your role in the performing arts community—or communities—differently than before?

BM: I feel really connected to the contemporary dance community. I feel close to people in both communities, but there is a shift because a lot of people have had babies, and with that there comes a sense of hope. In the past, it was more difficult to contemplate to have a child, or even more than one, but now people seem more willing to take a risk, and there are a lot of children in the community, and that changes things. There are a lot of parents trying to be parents and make art at the same time, and that creates community because you depend on people more, even just in helping you look after your child and accomplish the rehearsal process. There are 'art families' now, with children growing up with one or both parents working at a high professional level. Not having come from such a household at all, I think it is really nice — but of course my daughter may go in a completely opposite direction in the end. More people are asking for money for childcare in their grants and more people are holding open rehearsals; not showings, but having a family and having to let go of certain things also opens the process of art–making to the larger community, and maybe the public is also invited more into the process. And of course, the mandate of inclusivity now includes families and children more than it did a few years ago.

People who had children tended to feel isolated in the performing arts community.

AK: Managing children usually involved a stepping back from the lifestyle, and the persona, real or imaginary, of the bohemian virtuoso...

BM: ...which is interesting because kids are so creative and inspir-

When you are gigging all the time, it pulls a lot out of you; you are being asked to assume so many different shapes, and sometimes I get pulled out of myself, and I can lose track of what my intentions are.

ing to be around, They are playful all the time and they are learning and rearranging the world, and they are so observant. You would think there is no better time to be an artist than when you are around them...

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Thinking Bodies A conversation with Billy Marchenski

"I have been reading Antigone, with its chorus that

goes on about how humans are the most ingenious and skilled and masterful creatures able to

conquer any animal, while there is a woman trying to bury her brother's body with a handful of

dirt."

AK: ...right up to the moment when they become sullen teenagers who stare at a cellphone all day long. Meanwhile, what will be next for you?

BM: I am trying to focus more on making my own work, and following my own curiosity and taking the time to really work on something until it feels ready — or to decide to give up, let it go and move on. When you are gigging all the time, it pulls a lot out of you; you are being asked to assume so many different shapes, and sometimes I get pulled out of myself, and I can lose track of what my intentions are. I am taking more time now, to let the piece emerge as it needs to, and to let that take however long that takes. I am trying to focus more on my dreams and on what I am trying to express. Creating Slowpoke was really challenging but I learned a lot.

AK: I remember how many conceptual revisions Slowpoke went through, until it eventually completely transformed, like a glove that has been turned inside out...

BM: ...and it has transformed again, because it became the source material Alison (Denham) and I used in a movement piece called The Abandoned Body that we presented last year. I felt I didn't have the capacity in language to express the experience of that situation; for me it had to be expressed through the body. That place, the Chernobyl exclusion zone, and the things that went thought my mind — thinking in terms of duration, and how tiny our sense of time is in relation to the planet, the galaxy, and the universe is endlessly fascinating to me.

AK: Has having a child changed your perception of personal and artistic time scales?

BM: Oh yes, you begin to think of ancestry, and generations upon generations, where your habits come from, and what you will pass on. You are in the past and the future at the same moment. In that sense, it is a lot like a Butoh walk, where you are pulling all your ancestors behind you, and you are imagining all the people ahead of you, and you are taking all of that with you in time.

AK: Thank you!

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