Relocating to Australia in those days was a huge undertaking – what were your expectations and how the reality match? We virtually had no choice other than relocate to Australia after our tour to Vietnam to entertain the troops got literally ‘bombed out’. We had already tidied up all our engagements in NZ and were ready to travel, so Benny got busy and got us a gig at the Cooma Hotel in the Snowy Mountain region, south of Sydney. It was a tough gig. They had us playing all sorts of hours, but it was a starting point. It was also the start of our time as fully professional musos. Our residency in Cooma was followed by a residency in Sydney at the Yagoona pub. From there we made some great connections that led to our eventual success in Australia. Dinah Lee, whom we backed at the pub one night, was instrumental in our joining the Cordon Bleu agency and under their guidance we never looked back. We changed our name to The Cleves, slowly changed our repertoire and all dressed in jeans. It was completely different to what we were used to. Times were changing and we also needed to become more original, particularly with our music. We began writing songs as a group and were able to do that because we all got along so well. In the end we became very experimental and developed our own form of progressive rock. Some if it was and still is quite bizarre! Those actual recordings have become available again today and are well worth checking out. We became a very popular group on the local scene – again TV appearances and radio exposure from our recordings were instrumental in our rise from obscurity to popularity, and once again great management proved to be a vital component for success. What sort of reaction did The Cleves get coming back to NZ? Had the scene changed? I don’t think the NZ scene had changed at all in that time, but we had. In fact we had changed dramatically, visually and sound-wise. Gaye now had an M100 Hammond organ complete with Leslie speaker, so we could replicate the sounds of Steppenwolf and Procol Harum etc. You just could not buy these instruments in NZ back then, so it was a jaw-dropper for our fans when they heard and saw us. We had also ditched our uniforms and stage dress for long hair and jeans, and finally we were a fully professional band, now called The Cleves. That was an extremely successful tour for us, but we were keen to get back to Sydney to start recording. You later moved on to the UK, renaming the band Bitch. How did you manage to land a new major label deal there so quickly? We decided that the UK market would be a little easier to crack. Even some American artists were going there for the same reason, but it was do or die, a huge risk. So many before had failed but it was something we all wanted to do, well three of us anyway. Graham our drummer was now married and chose to return to NZ for a life of wedded bliss. For Ron, Gaye and me it was all go. We just needed a new drummer, and we found a ripper in Ace (Adrian) Follington.
We dumped the old name in favour of Bitch in order to grab some attention. We had a new line up, new material and a new look. We managed to arrange a gig at the famous London venue The Speakeasy, and invited the top record company A&R people to come and check out this hot new Aussie band. They were all impressed and we ended up with a dream contract with WEA Records London. That resulted in Good Time Coming, our first UK single release. It hit the charts high in most European countries but not in the UK. That was strange. But not as strange as to why it was never even released in Australia or NZ. Maybe it was our name?
way around the studio and he was young and clever. We hit it off like magic. We had a great respect and understanding for each other, so together we made a great production team. All we needed were some great artists, and once we found them we began to make gold! Some of the songs we were presented with were quite average to start with but Ian and I managed to make then sound fantastic. Some artists, like Dave Dobbyn for example, were just naturals from the start. With every artist or band we worked with we became a part of them while recording, creating in harmony if you like. I think that is the secret. Everyone has their part to play in the big picture.
How did the recording experience differ in the UK for the newly named Bitch? There are three sides to the recording process: the business side, the production side and the creative side. If one fails they all fail. Bitch got caught up in a corporate shake up. The album had been completed so it was the business side that had let us down. Good Time Coming would have been a classic. It was and still is a great sounding track today. In fact British musical outfit UNKLE sampled the riff for their hit Restless. It’s a great track and worth a listen if you haven’t already heard it. It’s also great to see Bitch/Cleves material now available on vinyl and CD. The music industry can be a harsh place especially in such a huge and competitive market like the UK and Europe, but before the bubble burst we met and played with some great artists. Playing with Alan Price (ex-Animals) in Nice and at the Cannes Film Festival would have to have been the highlights of our time over there. That was an amazing week. Working with Muff Winwood after the band fell apart was where I really saw how a studio works. I spent more time in the control room than in the studio. When you get to see the Pommy recording system, it is no wonder how they get that great music out. It is big business.
The drum sound on Gutter Black was considered quite unique – how did that came to be recorded? The recording part was standard procedure. It’s what happened afterwards that created that sound. Whenever we recorded, the separation of the drum components was great, and people like Ian and me, well we live the music. It’s like an obsession if you like. Anyway the next day I arrived at the studio and Ian asked me to check something out. He had fed the snare drum track out through these huge Altec Lansing studio monitors at full blast, placed a mic at the other end of the church-like main studio, and that great sound was the result. Very ingenious. It sounded just perfect with the rest of the track so I pushed it right up front.
You returned to NZ in 1977, becoming an in-house producer at Stebbing Recording Centre in Auckland? I had just returned from the UK with my wife Val and I needed a job. One guy owned everything here – which was a big difference. It’s not corporate. Eldred Stebbing needed some success from his studio and experience and knowledge are the best tools to make that happen. I had them both. It was the beginning of a new career for me so a perfect fit for both of us. In England Ron and I had no choice but to call it quits. We had gone the full distance and then some. I chose NZ because of my family. It was time for a change, but it had to be music. I wanted to have a shot at producing, so I put my heart and soul into it. You worked with the late Ian Morris on albums that included Murray Grindlay, Th’ Dudes, Hello Sailor, Golden Harvest and commercial jingles. Apart from Murray Grindlay, hardly any of these artists had been inside a recording studio. Ian Morris was Eldred’s protégé so he knew his
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What led you to return to Australia to live? Family again was the main motivation. My wife had been away for almost 20 years and I was also frustrated and somewhat disappointed with the NZ music industry. I guess we were looking for a new challenge and change of scene. The period of time since moving back to Aussie is another story and I cover all of that in my new e-book The Undertow. The Cleves actually made a significant impact in Oz. Have you noticed something of a legacy develop there? Definitely in NZ, but I live in tropical North Qld, Townsville. It’s not far from Mars here and memories seem to stop at AC/DC. I have yet to meet someone who remembers the Cleves up this way. But I do know that an original copy of the Cleves album is one of the most sought after collectors’ albums in Australia. At last report there’s one available in Sydney for $995! And remember that was recorded in the late ’60s, the days of tape and vinyl and now we are all in our 60s! What’s the best book about music that you’ve read? The Undertow by Rob Aickin (itunes.apple.com/nz/book/id989734757) The best advice you ever got was...? Always be nice to your mother.
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