❙ star chat ❙ By Alison James t was during the ﬁlming of the latest series of ITV’s Doc Martin that actor Martin Clunes, who plays the newlymarried yet still grumpy GP, started feeling under the weather and then soon extremely unwell. “I couldn’t cross a room, couldn’t walk the dogs and couldn’t really eat,” he says. “It turns out that I had a really nasty virus which left me with virtually no stamina and was completely debilitating. I had to take a couple of weeks off work – in 17 years of acting, I hadn’t had a single day off sick until then. “Luckily, there were all these bits in the ﬁlming schedule without me, so they could shufﬂe up the ﬁlming order and schedule all my stuff to a later date. “When I went back to work, I had to have three new suits made for the role, as I’d lost so much weight – the costume department couldn’t just alter the existing suits, there was too much to take in. I have put some weight back on, but I’m happy about that.” Apart from making him feel seriously ill, contracting the virus has, in retrospect, made Martin (51) view life in a different way. “It really brought home to me just how precious good health is,” he explains. ‘It made me realise that you can’t do what you want to do or be
With screen wife Caroline Catz and left, Port Isaac in Cornwall, where Doc Martin is ﬁlmed
‘Health scare changed my view of life’ Doc Martin star Martin Clunes on what really counts, rumours this is the last series and working with lions!
who you want to be if you don’t have your health. It’s an obvious thing to say but I don’t think you really realise it until you fall ill yourself. Losing my health is a fear I didn’t really have until I got sick. “I think you develop more fears as you get older – I developed a fear of heights after my daughter Emily (14) was born, for instance. I don’t know why. Probably my biggest fear is
the usual one about everything drying up, somebody taking everything away, leaving us to wonder how we’re going feed all the horses. But that’s probably not going to happen, so we’ll relax about that.” It’s been rumoured that this sixth series of Doc Martin will be the last. “That’s up to ITV,” Martin smiles. “Usually, towards the end of the shoot, my wife Philippa, who co-produces the show, and I turn to each other and say ‘never again!’ But that didn’t happen
❙ strap strap ❙
Martin with real-life wife Philippa
such a small village and it’s one reason we don’t ﬁlm every year.” Next up for Martin is a documentary in Kenya about rehabilitating lions. “I’m ﬁnishing it off, actually,” he explains, “and I honestly don’t know how it’s going to end. We’re ﬂying out to Kenya with Virginia McKenna to ﬁlm at Meru, where the Born Free lioness Elsa is buried. “Born Free was the ﬁrst ﬁlm I ever saw and, as a kid, I read all the books. Virginia has been an inspiration since I met her in the 90s and I’m really looking forward to working with her.” Does he prefer acting or playing himself in a documentary?
this year. This year, towards the end, we said we’d be foolish not to make another series if ITV asked us and we are able to do it. I know our crew want us to keep going because they love it in Port Isaac, Cornwall, where our ﬁctional village Portwenn is set. We all do.” As a thank-you, Martin, Philippa and the rest of the Doc Martin team have decided to give something back. “For four months, during the spring and summer, we ‘borrow’ the village and the residents welcome us and
“Can I say both?” he laughs. “I was nervous about doing the documentaries at ﬁrst, thinking they were going to diminish my stock in the day job, but they kind of complement each other. With documentaries, I get to go to put up with us,” says Martin. “We places, meet people and do things are donating a percentage of the I never would as an actor. I’d miss proﬁts to a trust fund to beneﬁt it now if I didn’t get to do them. the community. I’m lucky – and maybe just a little “Undoubtedly, Doc Martin bit smug – to be able to do both. has changed the character of the “I might go back into the village and done the business and theatre next year,” Martin muses. tourist industry a lot of good. The “It would be a challenge, although place has changed dramatically it’s annoying that my home since we started ﬁlming in 2004. in Dorset isn’t really near any On a ﬁne day, thousands of theatres. As my Men Behaving ✢ Doc Martin Badly co-star and friend people come to watch us ﬁlm. is on ITV1 But the locals lose a bit of Caroline Quentin once told me, on Monday peace at times. We try to be ‘It’s good to scare the hell out of evenings. sensitive about shooting in yourself every so often’!” YOURS
PICS: REX FEATURES; ALPHA PRESS; ITV
‘Being sick really brought home how precious good health is’
The caring dogs m a Our six deserving dogs need your votes – and you could be in with a chance of winning £100 worth of HiLife pet food By Laura Bradder e’re so excited to introduce you to this year’s Pets as Therapy (PAT) Dog of the Year ﬁnalists. As ever, the charity received hundreds of nominations, but these six stood out for the joy and comfort they bring to the people they visit. There are currently around 5,000 PAT dogs and cats visiting hospitals, hospices, schools and care homes nationwide, providing a unique friendship to those who need it most. Vote using the coupon provided, or visit www.yours. co.uk/PATDogs, and you could win £100 worth of HiLife dog or cat food in our free prize draw. The PAT Dog winner will be announced in a spring 2014 issue of Yours. ✢ To ﬁnd out more about the Pets as Therapy charity, call 01844 345445 or visit www.petsastherapy.org in association with media partner
Labrador owned by Val Howell Hope House Children’s Hospice nominated their ‘special friend’ Bill. They say: “We never have the Monday morning blues because we know Bill is visiting.” Easy-going Bill joins the children on their monthly canal boat trip and even starred in their Christmas panto! Staff say: “He has such a big heart.”
PICS: TIM MOSSFORD/UNP
PICS: NEIL O’CONNORS/UNP
MARQUE Boxer owned by Anthony Cousins Marque is treasured at the Scope Rosewarne residential home in Cornwall, where staff say: “He has an insight into people’s emotions”. Marque also visits Illogan School in Redruth with the Pets as Therapy Read2Dogs scheme. One of the children wrote: “I like reading to Marque because he just sits on the ﬂoor and listens.”
Pets As Therapy
PICS: CHRIS SAVILLE/UNP
Golden Retriever owned by Carol Cleaver Murphy has visited Yeatman Hospital in Dorset for ten years, where staff say his level of engagement with dementia patients is beyond anything they would expect to see. He also visits Hayes Residential Home, where one very poorly resident held her hand on his head and said: “His eyes are looking into my soul.”
y PAT dog of the year y
m aking a difference
Jack Russell owned by Eileen Hodge Faces light up when Bodie walks into Merton Place, Conwy, where many of the residents are recovering from strokes. One 88-year-old lady, who is bedridden, says: “Bodie is a little dog with a big heart. He gives me something to look forward to every week and makes such a fuss of me, always putting a smile on my face.”
PICS: PAUlA SOllOWAY/UNP
PICS: MIkE POlOWAY/UNP
Airedale Terrier owned by Ruth Boyes Charlie enriches the lives of adults with learning difﬁculties in Whorlton Hall Hospital. He also spends time at HMP Wealstun, and visits a young offenders prison, where one boy says: “Charlie shows me that life is worth living.” Being reminded of their own beloved pets is a huge incentive to get out and stay out of prison.
How to vote B By website: www.yours.co.uk/PATDogs
Win £100 of HiLife pet food
B By post: Hilife PAT Dog of the Year 2013/14, 14a High Street, Wendover, Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire HP22 6EA to arrive by the closing date, Dec 27, 2013. Please tick one choice: ≈ Marque ≈ Bodie ≈ Charlie ≈ Bill ≈ Murphy ≈ Toastie Title
Surname Address Postcode
PICS: jOEl CHANT/UNP
TOASTIE Cocker Spaniel owned by Elaine Cole Toastie was nominated by the Child and Family Clinic, Borehamwood, for her amazing work with a 12-yearold dog-phobic girl. The girl’s mum calls Toastie “our wonder dog”. Residents of Hindermount Rest Home also love Toastie’s visits, with staff saying it is as though she knows when people need extra care and affection.
Email address* Please enter me into the free prize draw to win £100 worth of Hilife. Tick as applicable, dog food ≈ or cat food ≈
Terms and Conditions: Photocopies of this voucher will not be accepted. Please do not vote for more than one nominee. No nominations will be counted after the closing date: Friday, December 27, 2013. Yours standard competition rules also apply – see page 131. Bauer Media (publisher of Yours magazine) may wish to contact you by post or phone. Please tick here if you do not wish to be contacted by Yours magazine ≈ or by specially-selected partners ≈. *By entering your email address/ mobile phone number you are choosing to receive email and text messages from time to time with relevant ofers and promotions from Yours magazine. You can unsubscribe at any time and your details will not be passed on to any other organisations.
Time of my
Ron Smith, pictured right, looks back on his time helping to care for London’s gentlest giant y father worked at London Zoo for 38 years, and I followed in his footsteps. During our time, most of the keepers lived around the zoo – for instance, my family lived in St John’s Wood which is very close to Regent’s Park, where the zoo is based – and the zoo was run by various families. Although I later worked there for 40 years, I spent most of my childhood there, too. School holidays were spent with Dad and his two gorillas, Mok (male) and Moira (female), who were very jealous of me! This sparked my great interest in gorillas, which I still carry today. The best time during my service was when my late wife and I hand-reared a baby gorilla named Salome from ten days until she was one year old, in our London ﬂat. Her mother
At home with Guy
Little Saul was another baby gorilla hand-reared by Ron
...the gorilla caption
had never raised a baby before, and didn’t know what to do with her, so we stepped in. I thought she was better behaved than a human baby! She is now 36 and lives at Bristol Zoo, but I still keep in touch with her through my contact with the keepers there. I was one of the keepers who cared for Guy at London Zoo. Guy was a lowland gorilla, and in his time became very famous. He was bought from a French couple named Falks, and arrived at the zoo on November 5, 1947, so what else could we name him but Guy? He weighed 14lb on his arrival, eventually reaching 35 stone. He
‘We hand-reared a baby gorilla who was better behaved than a human baby!’
was overweight, but as he was so popular with the visitors it became difﬁcult to stop them throwing chocolates and ice-creams into his cage, despite notices saying ‘do not feed the animals’. When he was young, the senior keepers would enter his cage to play with him, to stop him getting bored. This carried on until he grew larger and became very strong, and then he wouldn’t allow the keepers to leave. Someone came up with the idea of showing him a toy snake when they wanted to leave him – gorillas are wary of snakes in the wild. Eventually this stopped working, so no one ever entered his cage again. He did, however, have lots of famous people visit him – Sir Malcolm Sargent, the conductor, and John Aspinall, the famous gambler and future owner of Howletts Zoo, to name just two. Nearly every visitor brought
‘He preferred large, blonde, human ladies to female gorillas…’ After some 30 years, the head people at the zoo decided to buy a female as company for him. In 1969, a mature female specimen was obtained from Chessington Zoo called Lomie. After a few weeks being in adjacent cages, the pair were introduced. They played together and Guy treated her like a big teddy bear, cuddling her quite a lot. However, no actual mating was ever observed. Gorillas, like humans, learn by example and, as Guy had never seen another gorilla, he had
wants to KNOW
Ron’s dad makes a radio broadcast with his gorillas Mok and Moira
become humanised. For example, one day when I was outside his cage on duty, I spotted Guy lying on his front, apparently excited. I looked further down the cage barrier and saw a very large blonde lady from the catering department leaning over the barrier, calling Guy by name. He simply preferred large, blonde, human ladies to female gorillas! Eventually Lomie was sent to Bristol Zoo to be mated, but that’s another story… When she returned she was put back with Guy, who seemed pleased to see her again. As she was pregnant, they were separated at night, mostly because a male unrelated to a baby would kill the newborn. Guy carried on in his same old way, that is, until he began rubbing his teeth on the cage bars. The vet was called, and decided he would have to be treated, so Guy was tranquilised in a back cage, and the vet discovered he had some bad teeth, which were extracted. He came round and was OK, but some months later other teeth played him up, and again he was operated on. He started to come round, but suddenly collapsed with a heart attack. We in his cage could not believe he had gone, in fact I don’t think any of us had a dry eye. And so that was the end of a great Guy.
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Cathy Come Home ✢ This 1966 TV play provoked public outrage about homelessness and the treatment of people who fell on bad times, such as central characters Cathy, right, and husband Reg. ✢ One of the most haunting images is of a hysterical Cathy as her children are snatched away. One of the child actors was the actress’s real-life son. Cathy was played by Carol White, ‘the Battersea Bardot’, who died at 48. ✢ Jeremy Sandford wrote the story when he moved from Chelsea to Battersea and saw the homeless crisis ﬁrsthand. It was due to large scale slum clearance and the slow building of replacement homes. Homeless families were often split up and children forcibly removed by social services. ✢ A British Film Institute poll in 1999 named it the most important single play made for TV. ✢ 12m viewers saw the programme which was one of the BBC’s Wednesday Play series. ✢ Some good came from ‘Cathy’: a new national housebuilding programme and the forming of charity Shelter. Sadly, almost 50 years on, the charity is in greater demand than ever. YOURS
PIC: REX FEATURES. WORDS: LIZZY DENING
in the very best fruit for Guy, and one special Fellow of the zoo would arrive on Saturdays and spend the whole weekend with us. Another well-off couple would come down from the north and stay in a London hotel for the week, and visit Guy every day. There was something about Guy that pulled people to him. In those days, we would change into our dress uniform by 1pm and then go outside the animal house to mingle with the visitors, and answer their questions, plus, of course, asking them not to feed the animals. I can remember many occasions when, standing behind the barrier in front of Guy’s cage, I would have to dodge the food being thrown to him by the crowd. Despite his size, Guy was a good-natured animal and, if he knew you, he’d play with you through the bars, although he didn’t take to strangers.
5 low-cost options FULL OF FLAVOUR Cheap one-pot mains and puds for mere pennies
COST PER SERVING
£1.20 Crunchy Bacon Salad Garlic, lime and Italian bread… it works! Preparation time: 20 mins ■ 1 tbsp extra virgin olive oil, plus extra for drizzling ■ 110g (4oz) bacon lardons ■ 75g (3oz) focaccia, cubed ■ 2 cloves garlic, peeled and ﬁnely chopped ■ 50g (2oz) mixed salad leaves ■ Salt and pepper 90
■ Juice of 1 lime ■ Parmesan shavings, to serve 1. Heat the oil in a large frying pan over a medium heat. Cook the bacon for 5 mins, stirring frequently. Add the focaccia and cook until
Per serving 347 cals
Sat fat 6.7g
crispy like croutons. Stir in the garlic for the last few minutes. 2. Arrange the salad leaves on plates, then scatter with bacon and croutons. Drizzle with a little extra oil, lime juice and seasoning to taste. 3. Serve, topped with shavings of Parmesan cheese.
Recipes from Clever One Pot, a collection of 100 fabulous, fuss-free recipes. To buy call 0845 0948 128, visit www. dairydiary.co.uk, or put a note out for your milkman. Costings assume typical stock of spices and oil, and are exclusive of optional extra ingredients
Pasta with Melted Ricotta Lighter comfort food for a cool evening
Per serving 791 cals
Sat fat 11.3g
Preparation time: 10 mins Cooking time: 25 mins
■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■
COST PER SERVING
350g (12oz) dried penne or other pasta 110g (4oz) pine nuts 6 tbsp olive oil 70g (21/2oz) packet rocket leaves, chopped 2 tbsp chopped parsley 2 tbsp chopped basil 250g (9oz) ricotta, mashed 50g (2oz) Parmesan, grated Salt and pepper
1. Cook the pasta according to packet instructions. Drain, reserving 4 tbsp of liquid, and return both to the pan. 2. Add the pine nuts and oil together with the rocket, herbs, ricotta, half the Parmesan and plenty of salt and black pepper. 3. Stir until the pasta is evenly coated with sauce. Serve with remaining Parmesan sprinkled on top.
Per serving 482cals
Sat fat 13g
Meatballs in Tomato Sauce An unexpectedly satisfying surprise is concealed in this dish… Preparation time: 25 mins Cooking time: 25 mins
COST PER SERVING
■ 500g (1lb 2oz) minced beef ■ 3 cloves garlic, peeled and ﬁnely chopped ■ 2 tbsp ﬁne breadcrumbs ■ 1 egg ■ 1 tsp dried mixed herbs ■ Salt and pepper ■ 50g (2oz) Cheddar, cut into small cubes, plus extra grated, to serve ■ 2-3 tbsp olive oil ■ 2 onions, ﬁnely chopped ■ 2 x 400g cans chopped tomatoes ■ 500g (1lb 2oz) rice (cooked weight) 1. Mix the beef, 1 garlic clove, breadcrumbs, egg, herbs and seasoning in a bowl. Divide into 24 small balls, each the size of a large
marble. Press a small cube of cheese into the centre of each and re-roll. Then cover and chill while cooking the onions. 2. Heat 2 tbsp of oil in a large, heavybased frying pan over medium heat. Add the onions and cook until softened. Add the remaining garlic and cook for about another minute, and then add the meatballs (with an extra tbsp oil, if necessary). Cook for 10 minutes, turning twice. 3. Stir in the tomatoes and bring to the boil. Reduce the heat and simmer for 5-10 minutes until the meatballs are cooked through. If the sauce becomes too thick, add a splash of water. Remove from the heat and season to taste. 4. Serve on a bed of rice with a generous spoonful of sauce and topped with grated Cheddar. YOURS
0 Days out 1 BEST...
With our bargain entry deals, discounted events and even a free cuppa – there’s plenty to enjoy! ✢ Arts Botanica Botanical Art Exhibition LUTON HOO ESTATE, BEDFORDSHIRE In the conservatory at Luton Hoo Walled Garden you’ll ﬁnd a collection of work from the UK’s leading contemporary botanic artists. A lovely way to enjoy the outdoors, indoors! Oct 30-Nov 6, weekdays11am3pm, weekends11am-4pm. Entry £3, and free parking! Call 01582 879089 or visit www.lhwg.org.uk
✢ Alwinton Border Shepherd’s Show ALWINTON, NORTHUMBERLAND The 147th Alwinton Show is set to be the best of autumn in the north: fell racing, dog shows, sheep shows, craft tents, pipe bands – something is bound to tickle your fancy! Disabled parking available, though the show ﬁeld is bumpy in places. Oct12,10am-4.30pm. Adult £6, conc £5, child £2, under ﬁves free. Show ﬁeld car park £2. Call 01669 640216 or visit www.alwintonshow.co.uk
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30% OFF ✢ Autumn Colours Weekend
SHERBORNE CASTLE, DORSET See this beautiful Capability Brown landscape in all its autumnal glory, for less! In celebration of the turning leaves there’s discounted entry to Sherborne’s gardens and grounds. Discover Raleigh’s Seat, the Ginkgo Lawn and the Folly. Autumn Colours Weekend is Oct 26-27. Adult £3.50, under16s free. Call 01935 812072 or visit www.sherbornecastle.com
✢ Dylan Thomas Festival SWANSEA, SOUTH WALES Excitement is brewing for Dylan Thomas’s centenary in 2014. This year’s festival has some bargain ﬁnds: writer Rob Gittins will give a talk on October 30 about Thomas’s time in New York, and on October 31 poet and perfomer Mario Petrucci will be reading from his work. Adults £6, conc £4.20 for both. Festival runs Oct 27-Nov 9. Call 01792 463980 or visit www.dylanthomas.com
✢ Dartmouth Food Festival DARTMOUTH, DEVON This fabulous food festival is now in its 11th year. Award-winning food writer Mitch Tonks (above) will be entertaining the crowds, plus you can enjoy treats from local foodie ﬁrms including the South Devon Chilli Farm, Dartmouth Ice Cream Company, Georgie Porgie’s Puddings and Tarquin’s Gin. Food and wine demonstrations aplenty. Oct 25-27;10am-5pm Fri and Sat,10am-4pm Sun. Call 01803 752943 or for more information visit www.dartmouthfoodfestival.com
ROYAL VICTORIA COUNTRY PARK, SOUTHAMPTON Come along to Scarecrow Avenue near the chapel and welcome the autumn! Giant pumpkins, stalls and games await. The event, now in its 15th year, is organised by the Jubilee Sailing Trust. Dogs are welcome in the park. Oct12, noon-5.30pm. Adult £3, child £1. Call the venue on 02380 455157 and the organiser on 02380 641882, or visit www.jst.hampshire.org.uk
FREE ✢ Sudeley Castle NGS Day CUPPA WINCHCOMBE, GLOUCESTERSHIRE Sudeley Gardens and Exhibitions will donate all proceeds from ticket sales on October 11 to the National Gardens Scheme. A great way to give back while getting your money’s worth! Open 10.30am-5pm. Adult £11, conc £10, children £5, under ﬁves free. Call 01242 604244, or visit www.sudeleycastle.co.uk.
✢ Visit Sudeley on NGS open day (October 11) and receive a free hot drink. Simply show this page at the Visitor Centre on arrival to collect a voucher, redeemable at the coffee shop. One voucher per magazine, photocopies not accepted.
✢ Pensioner Days on Windermere Lake Cruises LAKE DISTRICT,
CROMFORD, DERBYSHIRE A charming village celebrates all things apple on its Scarthin Promenade, with a helping hand from Scarthin Books. Take along your windfalls and turn them into juice! Themed games, apple pie competitions and traditional ciders all await you at this gala of fruity delights.
CUMBRIA If you’re retired and live in the CA or LA postcodes you can enjoy a lake cruise for less on Fridays in October. Eligible pensioners can bring one local friend of any age. Bring proof of address (and retirement) to the Ambleside or Lakeside ticket ofﬁces; £4.50 for a 24-hour pass includes unlimited cruise travel.
Oct19,1-5pm. Donations welcomed. Call 01629 824182 or visit www.celebratingcromford.org
Call 01539 443360 or visit www. windermere-lakecruises.co.uk
✢ Apple Day Village Festival
Now visit www.yours.co.uk for more great leisure time ideas
✢ The Manchester Weekender MANCHESTER This weekend celebration is almost all free, with some ticketed events at low cost. Visit the Imperial War Museum North or enjoy roaming the Victorian arts and crafts centre – and it coincides with Manchester’s Literature Festival.
Oct 10-13, Call Manchester Tourist Information on 0871 222 8223 or visit www.creativetourist.com/weekender for further details.
Next issue: The top ten places for a dog-friendly UK break
PIC: JAYSON HUTCHINS AND SHERBORNE CASTLE, ORIGINAL IMAGE PHOTOGRAPHY, XANDER CASEY
✢ Autumn Pumpkin Festival & Scarecrow Avenue
❙ star chat ❙
My lessons from life…
Entrepreneur Deborah Meaden, 54, on her new Strictly challenge, being a Dragon and the importance of honesty ✢ I couldn’t say no to the Strictly challenge
✢ Being polite is important People everywhere approach me with their business ideas! I can be having a quiet dinner in a restaurant and someone will approach me, wanting to pitch – even the waiters! I politely suggest they contact me through my website. If we’re interested in their idea, we’ll get back to them.
Most things I do every day, I can just do – no problem! But Strictly Come Dancing is very different. It’s like stepping into the unknown and it’s scary. I did ballroom dancing at school, but was atrocious! I was distracted and didn’t like it – in honesty I was looking at the boys more than anything else as that’s what you do as a teenage girl! Then, with the Dragons, I did ‘Let’s Dance for Comic Relief’ and I loved it. I was doing something that was so unfamiliar to me and learning something that I didn’t know anything about. If I’d turned Strictly down I would have regretted it forever.
✢ Stay focused Above: Deborah with her fellow Dragons and, left, husband Paul
PIC: BBC; NEWS SYNDICATION; SNAPPERS
✢ There’s more to me than my TV image I’m aware that I can come across as quite tough and serious, but I don’t have a problem with that. There’s deﬁnitely a more fun side to me than people see on Dragons’ Den but you have to remember that I’m there to invest my own money, which can be quite sobering.
I can to help and support you. I know I expect a great deal of commitment from my team, but I don’t understand people who just ‘do the job’ when it is so much more rewarding if you get engaged and enthusiastic.
✢ Honesty is essential
To be successful in business, you’ve got to put your own feelings on the back burner. I get emotional about things, but my business life and my personal feelings are completely separate.
I don’t react well if I think someone is not being straight with me. On the other hand, if you’re open and honest with me, even if you’ve made a mistake, I’ll do all 146
✢ Keep business and feelings separate
When we’re ﬁlming Dragons’ Den, we have dinner with each other every night and all get on very well, but once we’re back in the den we’re in competition with each other. What viewers may not know is that sometimes the pitches and questioning goes on for hours rather than minutes. If you’re thinking about investing serious amounts of your own money, it requires serious discussion.
WHAT HAS HELPED MAKE YOU WHO YOU ARE TODAY? Many things, but if I had to pick one, I’d say the love and support of my husband, Paul. I couldn’t do what I do without him. You know the saying, ’Behind every good man there is an even better woman’? I’m changing it to ‘Behind every successful woman there is a man who has made it possible’. That’s very true in my case. ✢ Strictly Come Dancing is on BBC1, Saturdays and Sundays. Check listings for times. ✢ Deborah was talking to Alison James.