The Joe Matt Interview

Unlikemostreaders, I neversawJoeMall'searlycartoon diaries Inthepages of SnarfandDrawn andQuarterly.

Rather, myfirstexposure to Joe'sworkcame through thefirstfewissuesof hiscontinuing series,Peepshow, whichchronicle hisbreakup withhislongtime glrlfrlend, Trish,andhissubsequent attempts at rebuilding hislife. At thelime,likeJoe,I wasIntheconcluding ph.ases of a reiationshlp.

Joe'shonest depictions of hisanger,depression, andself-pity were faithfulto myownfeelings, andI foundmyselfreading Peepshow overandoveragain,withbetterthanaverage attention.ThemorecloselyI read,themore, Impressed I wasbyJoe'seffective pacingandstructuring of whatwasessentially autobiographical material.I wasalsoimpressed byhissensitive cartooning.

WhileJoe'sowncartoon persona is thoroughly unpleasant, hisfair-minded, deeply sympathetic depictions of supporting cbaracters likehislong-suffering friends SethandChester Brown, thestaffat theBeguiling, Charles, AndyandKim,andmany others,stuckwithme. Finding theKitchen Sink of single-page , collection stripsonlyconfirmed mybeliefthatJoeisoneofthemostaccomplished autobiographical cartoonists working today.

Theinterview wasconducted in onelong,uncomfortable session in anoverheated Toronto highrise inAugust 1995.Bythetimewefinished, JoeandI weresure theInterview wasa disaster, andlh~teachhatedtheother.Copy-editing thetranscript wasa pleasant surprise forusboth.Theinterview reveals a civil,wide• ranging_ conversation thatmovesfromtheparticulars of the earlieststrips,to thefaithfullydetailed anxieties andpsychological obsessions thattraosform Peepshow fromentertainment Intoart.

Christopher Brayshaw December 1995 • TI/ECOMICSJOURNAlJOE

MATT

INTERVIEW

#/8J JANUARY19%

47

"Itsounds stupid CHRISBRAYSHAW:Ina replytoonedjthelettersinthelatest issue,issue#8, yousay thiscurrentstoryyou're working butI wasn't aware 011, "Fair Weather,"is somethingyou've alwayswanted todo,andthatyouwereparticularlyinspiredtodoit after thattomake a seeing Chester'srecentamobiographica/ work.Whatisit cartoon lookmore 'aboufthisnewstorythathasheldyourinterestas longas likeachildyou've gottogiveIt amuch larger forehead.

IntheKitchen Sink collection Dave looks likea Neanderthal."

it hasandkep(it percolatingaroundin your mind?

JOE MATT: My firstinterestinthestorywasthatsinglepage I did a~outDavidin theKitchenSink collection.It seems I've alwayshada recurringbestfriendandthey'vealways shareda lotof thesamepersonalitytraits,orfilledthesame roleorneedsin mylife.I guessI classifySethas thelatest.

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TIIECOMttSJOURNAL JOE

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INTERVIEW

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,.," ., • (laughs)They're my malerelationships.It's alwayssuch a complexthingtor mebecauseon one level,fora friend, I'm attractedtosomeonethathasastrongpersonality.I'm very impressionable,so I'm drawn towards a stron'g personalitythat will innuenceme as wellas makedecisionsformeandleadme.EventuallyI endup resentingit, resentingall this powerI've given up. [laughs]When I thinkof thesefriendsnow- not Davein particular,but I've hada fewothersinbetweenheandSethovertheyears - I lookbackon a lotof themwitha lotof resentmentand bitterness,I'm alwaystryingto figureouthowmuchof it's my faultand how muchof it's theirfault,and howcan I preventit fromhappeningagain.

BRAYSHAW: So youseeyourfriendshipwithDaveas being theflrs4inaseriesof relationshipswhichhaverepeatedon intoY,ouradultlife?

MATT: Exactly.An ongoingcycle.

BRAYSHAW:Onethingthatinterestsme is the wayyou've ·changedthingsfrom when they first appearedin the single-pagestrip, "MyBestFriendDave." Forinstance, Dave's appearancelooksa lot different./11the Kitchen Sinkcollec1io11, Davelookswayuglier.

MATT: Icouldn'tdrawas well.[laughs]He'sugly,allright.

But so am I. II soundsstupid,but I wasn't awarethat 10 makea cartoonlookmorelikea childyou've got 10 give it a muchlargerforehead.In the Kit.Chen Sinkcollection Dave lookslikea Neanderthal.

BRAYSHAW:Whatstrikesme as .interestingabout "Fair Weather"is thatthe two issuesthathavecomeout sofar havebeenmuchmore"cartoony,"that is,thejigureshave beensimplified,and the settingshavenot beendrawnas realisticallyas in the earlierworki11Snarfor Drawnand Quarterly.

MATT: Really?I findthesettingsmorerealistic.Especially likein anestablishingshotbecauseI'm usingphotographs partof the timeforbuildingsandhouses.To methatgives it a morerealisticfeel becauseI haven't usedany photo referencepriorto this.But thecharactersand a greatdeal of the artworkis simplifiedbecauseI've got my eye on

colorihgit someday.

BRAYSHAW: Thiswouldbe somethingyou wouldliketo see collectedby, say, Drawnand Quarterly?

MATT: Sure,definitely.NotthatI'd liketo see it; myeye is completelyon the collection.It alwayshas been. Even fromthe veryfirstKitchenSinkpage.Iwasthinkingof that collection."FairWeather"is definitelygoingto be a third collectionsomeday.

BRAYSHAW: Canyou tellmesomethingabouireasonsas to whyyouchosefor movingawayfromthiilgsthathappened immediately10you, 10 dealingwitheventsthathad hap· penedfurtherbackin thepast?Whatwasyourinterestin thatshift of perspective?

MATT: It wastime10 thinkof a newcollection.I definitely didn't want10 re-treadthesamegroundfromissues#l-J/6.

I wasveryworriedaboutrepeatingmyself.Thefirstthing I wanted10 get awayfromwasthe wholesexualelement.

So the childhoodstoryappealed10 me becausethere was no sexualityin it. The voyeuristiclookingat sunbathers doesn't quite qualify10 me. This ~.,,, wasbeforeI gota holdof pornography- I wasn't quite as lustful... [laughs]I wanted10 do a storythat wouldallowme theopportunityto try todevelopasastoryteller.

Maybe use more silentpanelsand let the storybreathemore.Anddo some- , thing that was more about two peopleas opposed10 one. I don't knowif ii feelsthat way,if it feels likeit's aboutthesetwo friends,or if it feelslikeit's all aboutme. But in my mind the focus is on this friendship.

BRAYSHAW:/ think there's 11111ch moreinterplaybetweenDaveandyou thantherewas,say, betweenyouand Trish.Thatis, Davecomesacrossto me as an equal,who'scriticizingyouand talkingbackto you and analyzingyour reasonsfor doing things,and I think

TH£COMJCSJOURNAL JOE

"Not thatI'dliketo seeit;myeyeis completely onthe collection.

It always has been.

Even fromthe veryfirstKitchen Sink page, I wasthinking of thatcollection.

'FairWeather' is definitely going tobe athirdcollection some day."

IIPSH8W

MATT INTERVIEW

1/81 JANUARY 1996

TOP: Same Dave, dijferenr

style:from "Fair Weather."

ABOVE:Coverto ~#8.

49

"There wasthat there'sa reallygoodsenseof interplaybetweenthehvoof you. Thatcomesthroughverywell. onelarge'Playtime.'MATT:I'm just tryingto keepthe twocharacterstogether Yeah, I rememberthroughoutthe wholestory.I alsowantto df<1woutdoor scenes-because thefirstsixissuespracticallytakeplace I wanted thattosit in my room.It feltveryclaustrophobic. nexttothe BRAYSHAW:There'salsoa se11sethati11thefirstfew issues, you spent a lot of tirneusi11gcuts betwee11 sce11es.to 96-panel strip. juxtaposeoneperson'sdialoguewiththe resultsof their "!'111 goingto go a11d do this."

Thatwasreally why actions: MATT:Yeah,I wantedtogetawayfromthatlittleboxinthe I didthat.-tomake it cornerthatwouldsay,''Threehourslater..." or,"Thenext ... " It seemsintrusive.I don't think I've used it yet. lookworse than day Like,"Laterthatnight..." isnotnecessaryifyoudoa night it was." shot,youknow?Soyeah,I havebeentryingtoavoidthose.

MATT:Thanks.I've been very happywith it.

BRAYSHAW: Youalsoalludedto thatsenseoffreedom:the

panels are bigger,you've 11wvedtowardsdoing much largersceneswithmuchmoredetailin them.Canyoutalk aboutyour interestin that?Is that more of 011artistic challenge?

MATT:Yeah,it's just to makeit moreenjoyableformyself, to be less restricted.Even in the firstsix issuesI limited myselfio squarepanels.Andnow, if I wantto do a long panel,I cando thatandthencut it anywherein thattier.It just makesit morefun.andsometimesit's necessary,so it feelsright.Ijust wishI wasfasterwiththeart![laughs]I'm so fuckingslow.

• BRAYSHAW: Oneof the thingsI thinkwillsurprisepeople whomight11ot haveseentheKitchenSinkco/lectionis, I'm BRAYSHAW: FairWeatherseemstoflow better,too.Thatis, thinki11g of someof the "Playtime"pieces,whereyouvery ,... ,_ ,,.,_.,_, ·_- ,..,~ co11sciously experimentedwithpage desig11 and panels, ~-o•-~ ,_ ....,_.....: "°'" ....,..,, ... ..--... ..,_., with differentpa11elshapesand differentpacing tech_,.., r '"'' ...,, TAIM -P ic.-~1.·11iques.

That'ssomethi11g I'm reallypleasedtoseecoming backi1110 the work.

MATT:Where'sit comingback?I don't see it.

BRAYSHAW: In geuingawayfrom thesmallsquare.

MATT:I see whatyou mean.

BRAYSHAW: Forpeoplewhohaven'tsee11thatearlierwork, theymaythinkthatthis is allyou de.

MATT:There was that one large "Playtime."Yeah, I rememberI wantedthat10 sitnextto the96-panelstrip.That wasreallywhyI did that-10 makeit lookworsethanit was.

BRAYSHAW: Tell111e a bit aboutthe referencethatyou're doingfor Fair Weather.Earlieryou weretalkingabout 11si11g photographicreference,and in the tellersyou've alsoalludedthatyou've bee11 talkingto yourmomabout thingsthatwent011in childhood.

MATT:Right.I took somephotosof the suburbsjust to try andget a feel.I don't reallyusethemtoo often.I've used them forDavid's house,the7-11,my house,nota whole lot more. And the school,that was an importantone I • •• '"'• r, wantedto havephotosof. Butyeah.I've askedmymom !•- ,....... .,.,, andDavid,andmysisterMonica,lotsof things.I thinkmy .,, ,..,.., ! sister has been the most helpful.She's almosttwo years older than me so we grew up very close together.The interestingthingis thatI am in touch withDavid.

BRAYSHAW: Theconclusionto thestripin theKitche11 Sink collectionseemedto i11timate thatyou had driftedapart, and thatyou weren'tin contact.

MATT:Yeah,but wegot backintocontacta fewyearsago.

My momis stillin the suburbsand so is he,and shegot a clericaljob for a milk company,and it turnedout that Davidis a milkmannow.So they wouldsee each other everymorningin theoffice.She toldhimabouttheolder issuesof the comicand he wantedto see thatstuffso we got in touchsoon after that.

BRAYSHAW: Has he see11thefirst coupleof parts of Fair Weather?

MATT:Yeah, he has. My mom told me he said it looks nothinglikehim.He doesn't feellikeit's reallyhim.It's moreprobablya questionoflikeness;I neverreallygo for a likenesswithmy cartooningbecauseit's just reallynot there'sa lotlesscuttingbehvee11 sce11es.

It'smorelike011e importantto me, and it's difficulton top of it. [laughs] great,big, /011g scene,a11dthereare i11teresting rhythms BRAYSHAW: I think that's somethingthat caughta lot of even in somethingsimplelike the coupleof pages with peopleby surprise.Likewhenthe coupleyoumeetin the Davejust riding his bike along. There'sa really11ice Beguilingturn out to look nothing like their cartoon rhythmandprogressio11 to tlwsesce11es. likenesses.

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MATT INTERVIEW

111/J JANU,\RY /'J'/6'

MATT: In thatinstanceI wastryingto get awaywithsomething,but ii wasso transparent.I feel like it would be like that withanychangeI wouldmake.It'slargely a part of my fearof me movingtowards fictionbecauseI worrythat it wouldbe 100 obvious.The wholequestionof "fiction"hasalwaysbeentroublesometo me becauseas a writer,you'realwaysdrawingon yourownexperiences,so to try to camouflageorchangethings,itjust seems likemoretroublethanit's worth.It's like tellinga lie,anditjust multiplies.I worry thatif I did somefictionalthingit would just snowballintothisthingI didn't know whereit was goingand I didn't have a grip on, and thingsjust get inconsistent becausethey'renotfactual.It's verycomplicated.

• BRAYSHAW: 8111 ina sense;you'renotjust doingstraightawobiographicalreportage. There is quite a bit of rewriting materialand reorganizingmaterialfor dramaticeffect.Youseemto havea good grasp of how to make somethingmore dramaticallyrelevant,or how to better structuresomethingto appear in semifictionalfon11.

MATT: I don't knowif"filmn1aker"is the besttenn,butl am kindof approachingit withthat sensibility.I am lookingback with a voyeuristiceye on my own life, and tryinglo presentit dramatically.

BRAYSHAW: Is therea sensein whichthat lookingback,OU!Side of whateverentertai111nent valueit servesfor an andience, in whichproducingthe workis usefulto you because when it's edited down or distilledor condensed.it allowsyou tosee thingsthatyoumightnot haveseenin the acrnallivingofyour life?

MATT: Sure,definitely.It's a lotof fun to just think about things:Things you've avoidedor... You'vereallygot to come toyourconclusions.

Thisiskindofironic, but [laughs)I don't wantto lookstupid.I don't wantto looklikeI don't knowwhat I'm doing.

BRAYSHAW: Eveninplaceswhereit looks likeyou're completelylost,like youjust don't have a clue what to do, at least there is that constantsense of a kind of questioningthecircumstancesyou'rein. Youneverjust lie there passively.That's one of the things that's really appealingaboutyou as a character- thisconstantrage againstcircumstances.

MATT: I guess.

BRAYSHAW: Youdon't comeacrossas passive: MATT: In the storyline,you mean?

BRAYSHAW: Yeah.Tome youseemtocqmeacrossas pretty consistentlyengagedwith whatever's going011.Even if • you're gellingabsolutelydumpedon, you're still strugglingand tryingto changethings.

MATT: Yougoua live,I guess.

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BIOGRAPHICAL STUFF BRAYSHAW: Okay,nowsomebiographicalstuff Youwere

born in Philadelphiain 1963?

MATT: That's right Lansdale,Pennsylvania,actually.

BRAYSHAW: Whatwasgrowingup in Philadelphialike?

MATT: It wasn'tPhiladelphia,it wasa suburbof Philadelphia,aboutan hour'sdriveaway.It wasverymuchlikeit appearsin the comic.

BRAYSHAW: Middle-classcommutersuburb?

MATT: Yeah.Verywhite,veryCatholic.A lot of Italians, Irish... ActuallyI wasoblivioustoallthenationalities, and

THECOMICSJOURNAl JOE MATT INTERVIEW

I/BJ JANUARY/996

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"When I wasa kid, BRAYSHAW: Tell me a birabouryourparents.Whardid somehow I decided theydo?

My motherwasahousewife.

Shehadherhandsfull Snoopy hada birthday MATT: raising four children.Evenwhen my sisterand I were ona certain dateand grownup,therewasa youngerone,Peter-I'm 31now, he's 17- so she'salwayshadher handsfuU.My I would celebrateand father... I'm no! exactlysurewhat he did. [laughs]He thisevery yearand seemedto drift fromjob 10job a 101.WhenI wasabout I remember heownedasmallcarpetingstorethathis make mymom throw five, father had set up. My grandfatherhad run a linoleum a littleparty withcake companyandheset my dadup with a shopthatI guess failed, I'm not sure.He workedfor H&RBlock for a andicecream and whileandthenfinally landedajob with Amtrakthathe's I'dinvite friends and hadfor the last 12or 15years.

BRAYSHAW: Did theshiftingberwee11 jobs meanfinancial everything.

I don't i11srability? remember howlong thatwenton,but , thelastyearwedidit • I remember feeling a littletooold tobedoing that."

MATT: We alwaysseemed to bepretty... I'm notsureif we

weremiddle-class or upper-middle-class. butall I knowis I didn't haveanyspendingmoney.I hadno money,really.

There wereno allowancesandtherewere no vacations.

We wentdown to theJerseybeaches once.Wedidn't go out to dinner... [laughs]I'm just painting a bad picture now. I don't know.I just didn't havea lot of money.The moneyI gotalwaysseemedlikeI hadto earn.Canyoubeat that?[laughs]I hadto mow lawnsor shovelsnowtor it, hence,it wasverypreciousto me.

BRAYSHAW: Did yo11fi11dyourselfin co,if[ictwith your

pare,11s' religiousor socialvalues?

MATT: No. I wentthroughgrades1-12in a Catholicschool

andI didn't evenreally questionit. I preuy muchbought it entirely.It's weird for menow,thinkingbackon it,just how muchtalkingto GodI did in my head.Theonly real dragfor mewastheclothes:Dressingup andwearingthat

C'MON, SETH!l'VEI-IAD ENOUGH!!

LET'S GETBACK I TOOURREALITY NOW !!

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TOP: Mall draw.t hi.'i own

origin.

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OPPOSITE: The torture of

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52

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MERRVX·MAS, PAL -.JOE nlECOMICSJOURNAL JOE

MATT

INTERVIEW

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lltJ

JANUARY 199d

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damn tie every day and then having to do it again on Sunday.I wasalwayspissedoff-I couldn'tstandit.But thatwas myonly real inconvenience.I hatedit..

being a person betweencrowds, a person who did11'r reallyfit in lo a11y011e particular group of people.

be collected.It wasbuggingmethatit wasn'tbeingreadas a continuity.SoI wascuttingthatouteverydayandgluing it into books.That was 1971or I972, becauseI stiIIhave the strips.I did that rightup until it foldedin '75.

Butaboutfittingin .withotherkids: I sort of perceive my childhoodas veryjoyfulandenjoyable,rightup until puberty.Thatwas whenlustandattractionto theopposite sexkickedin,andI feltpowerlessandeverythingwentbad fromthere.

MATT:I always had this image of myself as an artist.

BRAYSHAW: Beforepuberty,did you have womenfriends,

[laughs]It sounds so pretentious.But as a kid I was drawingaroundthe ageof five,and the label"artist"was hungon meby anyonethatknewme.I enjoyedit, I liked feelingspecialand all that shit. [laughs]

rhoris, boysand girls playing rogerlter?

BRAYSHAW: Did youget 011well with otherneighborhood

kids?

MATT:Sure, prettymuch,I guess.

BRAYSHAW: Youseemedto hove a senseof yourself as

BRAYSHAW: IV/tarsort of arr wouldyouhovebeenseeingar

thisage? Wasyour arr based011newspapercarroo/lSyou hadsee11?

Had you seencomicsrltar early?

MATT:Yeah, I fell in love with Peanutsat an incredibly

youngage. Probablybefore I couldeven speak,I knew Snoopy'simageand lovedhim.WhenI was a kid,somehowI decidedSnoopyhada birthdayon a certaindateand I wouIdcelebratethiseveryyearandmakemymomthrow a littlepartywithcakeandicecreamandI'd invitefriends andeverything.I don't rememberhowlongthatwenton, butthelastyearwedid it I rememberfeelinga littletooold to be doing that. [laughs] But yeah, Peanutswas an immediatelove.I thinkI was aroundsevenwhenI started cut!ingLi'IAb11eroutof thenewspapereverydaybecause I noticedtherewas a continuity,andI feltthisstuffshould

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"Ialways had this image ofmyself as anartist. [laughs] Itsounds so pretentious.

Butas a kidI was drawing around theageoffive andthelabel 'artist' washung onme byanyone thatknew me.I enjoyed it, I liked feeling specia andallthatshit." [laughs]

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THECO/.IICS/01/RNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW

ll8J JANI/ARY 111116

53

"It'sfunny talking enemycamps.

BRAYSHAW:Your sister and her friends seem to have about It.I wasvery developedverydifferentinterestsfrom yours.

My sisterandher friends?I don't thinkshe hasany young andI hadn't MATT: friendsin my comics. even heard about BRAYSHAW: Nobut,i11termsof howyoudepicther,itseems me thatpeoplewho wouldbefriends of the character, comic book bags and to wouldnot11ecessarily understand yourlovefor Peanuts...

I was, probably l.ike MATT: Yeah... Thedifferencesbetweenmalesandfemales consistent.I mean,a lotof theclichesstayconsistent. a.lotofkids, using stay Forinstance,analretentiveness seemspredominantly male: saran wrap and collectingthings and hoardingthem, and all that shit. (laughs]Guysaremuchmorelikethat.I don't knowwhy, wrapping themup but that's beenmy experience. andtaping them. BRAYSHAW:Wasthatalwaysa partof yourself?A ki,uiof acquisitiveness?Theneedto havethings?

It'scrazy! MATT: Yeah.

Godknows why ... BRAYSHAW:Did it matterwhatthosethingswere?

MATT: Sure. Completely.It's the collectingmentality.I Itwaslesscartoonywas collectingBig Daddy Roth stickers,called "Odd big-teethedmonstersdrivinghotrods.I thinkthose tome.I thought of Rods," were the first things I startedcollectingas a kid.'Even the[DCandMarvel] today,that collection'smy mostprizedpossession.And books. It just seemed like I had all of these artwork asmore Peanuts separatecollectionsgoingand it wasalwaysappealingto realistic, andhence, get moreof themgoingand watchthemgrow.

Weretheseintereststhatyoucouldsharewith superior.

I wasan BRAYSHAW: otherkidsyourow11age?

Orwerethesemoreor lessthings idiot!" you pursued011yourow11?

MATT: I prettymuchpursuedthemon myown.Anyoneelse that wascollectingcomics,Ijust figuredtheydidn't have thesa!llesensibilities,theyweren'tdoingit right.[laughs) They didn't have the righttastes.Somebooksjust don't belongwithotherbooksin my mind.I thoughtofArchies and Fu1111y Animal books and Little Lulu as more like disposablecomics, they weren't worth collecting.The ones to save were the superherostuff, the DCsand the Marvels.

BRAYSKAW: Whywas that?Wasitjust becauseDCs and Marvelshada strongercontinuity?

WAtr'LL YOU SEE HOW BIG MV COMIC COLLECTIONIS NOW!

I ·ve GOT ALMOST A THOUSAND:

MATT: Theyjust appealedto me morebecauseI wasmale.

The powerfantasiesand shit. I've got to stopsayingthe word,"shit"!

BRAYSHAW: Youcansay thosewords-this is theJournal.

MATT: [laughs)Theyjust appealedio me.The other stuff that also appealedto me too was, all the stuff I just mentioned,and De1111is the Me11ace, Littlelulu, Archie, Do11ald Duck,UncleScrooge... All thatstuffappealedto me,but it wasmoreor lessthrownintomy sister'scloset and lefithere.I didn't reallycare aboutpreservingthem; I wasn't preciouswiththemat all,the wayI was withmy own DCand Marvelbooks.

BRAYSHAW: Now,part of being "precious,"hadyoufigured0111 by thispointthatthesethi11gs mightconceivably be worthmoneyoneday?Orthatsomeof themwereworth moneyalready?

MATT: Sure,I knew that.But my eye wasn't on makinga profit.I figuredI wastakingthesethingsto thegraveand I wantedto preservethem. [laughs]It's funny talking abou1it I was veryyoungand I hadn't even heardabout comicbook bags and I was, probablylike a lot of kids, usingsaranwrapandwrappingthemup andtapingthem.

It's crazy!Godknowswhy.

BRAYSHAW: Didyou perceivethe kind of groresq11e male powerfantasiesthatwerepretrymuchrampa11t at DCand Marvelthen,did youperceivethemas somehowdiffere11t from the restof the sttiffthatwasgoing011?

MATT: Sure. It was less canoonyto me. I thoughtof the artworkas more realistic,and hence,superior.I was an idiot!

BRAYSHAW: / wasthinkingmoreaboutthesubjectmatterbeing opposedto everythi11g that was goi11g011i11the suburbs.

MATT: II seemedserious;it wasn't playedfor laughsthe wayeverythingelsewas.Andthestylecontributedto that.

Thestylewasn'tcartoonyand 1hecontentwasn't humorous. So that's all it was.

BRAYSHAW: Yousaidpreviouslythatyou ide11tified yourself as beingan artist,or wa11ti11g to be an artist.

MATT: Yeah,I thoughtof myselfas an artist.My mother PLUS, NOW 1',-,. GONNA HAVE To START A WHOLE NEW SECTION JUST FOR DAMAGEDCOPIES .'

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54

11/ECOM/CSJOUR.VAlJOE MATT INTERVIEW

ll8J JMIUARY/'JU

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•

\.,

"My drawing has always been cartoony Even incollege it leaned more towards grotesque caricature kind ,ofbased onphotos likethatfatguy ' Inthesteam bath cover I didforGraphic Story Monthly #7, alotofmystuff looked likethat.

I would take photos and then distort them ••and then paint them.

I just had avery hard time with a_natqmy and allthatstuff; • itjustseemed way beyond me."

FAlltAC.RAPRICS BOOKS went to an schooland she drew andshe encouragedit in me. r should have said that earlier! She went to the PhiladelphiaCollegeof Art,whereI endedup graduating from.But she dropped.ou~after her first year to raise a family.Butourhousewasfullof heroil paintingsall over the walls.I enjoyeddrawingso much,I just decidedat a\ veryyoungagethat I wasan artistandI wasgoingto stick withthis foreverbecauseit seemedlikea goodjob. Itjust seemeda great ideato do art, when1 got older.

BRAYSHAW: Okay,so thequestionI'm tryi11g toask is,once you becameinterestedin readingprimarilyMarveland DCs11perhero comics,did you make the connectionthat peopleweregellif!g paid to writeanddrawthesethings?

Didyou havean interestin producingthatkindof work?

MATT: No,

not at all. I couldn'tevendrawthatstuff, I didn't even try to draw superherostuff, it was totallybeyondmyabilities.My drawing has always been cartoony.Even in collegeit leanedmore towardsgrotesquecaricaturekindof basedon photos- likethat fat guyinthesteambathcoverI didforGraphicStoryMonthly #7, a lot of my stufflookedlikethat. I wouldtakephotos andthendistortthemandthenpaintthem.Ijust hada very hardtime withanatomyand all that stuff,it just seemed waybeyondme.I neverthoughtforan instantthatI could do it.

TH£COMICSJOUR//AL JOE MATT INTERVIEW

ll8J JANUARY1996

OPPOSITE: Portraitofrhe

arti.,ras a youngcomic book collector.

ABOVE:A different,,tyle, fr11mGraphic Story Monthly and Drawn and

Quarterly,

55

Goingthroughhighschool,you werekeeping e11rolled illtothe PhiladelphiaCollegeof Art. Thatwasa "Upuntil college,BRAYSHAW: a sketchbook. four-yearprogram?

I copied everything MATT:Was I?! [laughs] MATT:Right. My major was illustration.Through my totheKitchenSinkstrips,youwere! whole college training,I thoughtI was going to be a I could getmyhands BRAYSHAW:According MATT:Okay.[laughs)It's painfulto admitit now,but my magazineillustratorbecausetheydiscouragedcomicsand on.Myonly realskill sketchbooksconsistedalmostentirelyof copiedartwork; said theydidn't pay. At.thatpointI reallyhad myeye on wouldcopy everybody,Frazettato politicalCartoons, makinga lotof money.WehadpeoplelikeRalphSteadman was drawing from lite. Ianything, superheroes... I felt completelysecurein my and Brad Hollandcome and give us talks, and I just I could draw from life copyingskills.I hardlyeverdidanythingoriginal.I would thoughtthat I wantedto be makingthe big bucks for a copy the coversto Warren's issues of The Spirit.They singleimage;a movieposterthat wouldmake$100,000 andfrom photographs wouldlookgreat wiihthe big logosand everything,and likeforApocalypseNow... TheIllustrationAnnualswere becausethatwaslike thenI would.trytodo myownentirelyoutofmyhead,and pusheddownourthroats,andwejust wantedtobe inthere. wasso embarrassed,and I hid thesethings!Everything . Thatwas the mentalityin college. copying tome.All Iwas sort of stiff, and the creasesin the clothingweren't BRAYSHAW: \Vereyouconti11ui11g to do eithercomicswork workonyourownseparatefrom whatyou were through college I was anywherenearright... It wasjust a mess.Everytime!tried orcopyi11g somethinglike that it failed. doingin college? dependent onphoto- BRAYSHAW: By the timeyou wereinhighschool,wereyou MATT: No,I hadmyhandsfullwithhomework.I hadnever co11ti11ui11g to workas artistor workillgas a profes- done anycomicworkeveron my own,untilthe veryfirst graphs foreverything. sio11al artist- wasthatprettymucha give11 for whatyou KitchenSink page.Basically,up until college,I copied SoI would cartoonwa111ed to do as a career? everythingI couldget myhandson. MyonIy realskiUwas Yeah.Thatwastheonlything.I neverthoughtforan drawingfromlife.I coulddraw fromlifeandfromphotothephotographs quite MATT: instantof anythingelse. graphs'becausethat was likecopyingto me. All through abit,andthatwas BRAYSHAW:Wereyour pare11tssupportiveof that career collegeI wasdependentonphotographsforeverything.So I wouldcartoonthe photographsquite a bit, and thatwas myillustration style choice?

MATT:Yes,entirely.Especiallymy mother,sinceshe was my illustrationstyleI was developing. an artistherself.

I wasdeveloping."

BRAYSHAW: Whatledyou to do yourfirst comicsworkfor Q/1

BRAYSHAW: Onceyou graduatedfrom high school,you

KitchenSink?

--

Tlf£COM/CSJ0URNALJOE

MATT INTERVIEW

l/8J

JANUARY/'Hf,

w'IIAT CAN I SAY

?

YOUNG AHO FOOLISH: I

NOW

HEY! THIS REAi.LYHIOES THE' DIRT!

WAS

vov

I'LL

REALtY•

TIST

LOOK LIKE AN

WHY.YES

MA'AM·· I AM •1

ARTIST,'

..

MATT:A completefailurein an illustrationcareer.I tried

hittinga lot of magazinesin NewYorkCityonce,!got my portfolio done. I was very set on startingat the top. [laughs]I hada labor-intensive styleandI thoughta lotof it, and I didn't want to be doing·anillustr~tionfor under $500.Itjust wasn'thappening.I wouldgo to theseplaces and sho,v them my portfolioand just stand'by silently figuringthe workshouldsell itself... and it neverdid. I couldn'tfigureout whynobodywascallingme back,but nobodycalled back. ConsequentlyI just rotted at my mom's housewatchingtelevisioneveryday.

BRAYSHAW: Did anybodyfrom any of thesecommercial placesthat you showedthe work,or any teachersin art' schoolprovideeitherusefulcriticism10you, suggestthat maybecommercialillus1ratio11 wasn'1 going-tobe 'it,but thatyour talentmightlie in somedifferentdirectioh?

MATT:No, they encouragedthe illustrationcareer.Tbey totallydiscouragedcomics.This wouldbe.theearly,•~Os. Comicshopswere around,but...

BRAYSHAW: Black-and-whiteswere11 't,.goingro boo,;n for anotheryearor two.

MATT:Yeah,so it wasn't reallyan option.·1rememberin collegeI saw a few issuesof RAW;#4 or #5 is the one I remember.But thatjust seemedso avantgarde;it didn't even seem like comics to me, it seemed like weird, pretentiousartists.[laughs]

BRAYSHAW: Hadyou seen Crumb'swork,or an anthology like Weirdo?

MATT:No, I hadn't. I sawCrumb'sworkfor the firsttime onceI gotoutof college.I guessI was22 or so.Therewas somethingaboutthe stylethat seemedlike it wasalways familiarto me.It seemedlikeI hadbeenseeingit around since I was a kid. The whole stylejust gave me a real nostalgiccharge·that I've alwaysbeenattractedto.Evenas a child,thingslikethereallyoldlitr/eRascalsonTVor old movies,anythingthat spoke of an older world always grabbedme. Andc;rumb'sstuffjust felt likepartof some oldworld,i~didn'tfeelcontemppraryat all.SoI pickedup the early ZAps,and soon becametotalJyobsessedwith Crumb.Even as a child I was alwaysjumping fromone comicartistto another.I wasa big NealAdamsfan,then BerniWrightson,thenJohnByrne... It wasn'tuntilmuch laterthatI wisedup andgrabbedall the KirbyI couldfind.

BRAYSHAW: Whatledyou to do yourfirst comicswork?

MATT:The illustrationcareertotallyfizzledout.This was rightaftercollege~ndI wasIivingwithmymomfor about ninemonths.I waslosingmy mind,I hadno friends.I was just livingin that housein the suburbseveryday. I would venturedowntownto visitMattWagner,my friendfrom college, and he was doing Mage and just startingup Grendel.I wouldvisithimandhe wouldgivemeworkjust doing anything,cuttingfrisket,I startedcoloringfigures

THECOMICSJOURNAL JOE

MATT INTERVIEW

l/8J JANUARY/996

"I remember incollege I saw afewissues of Raw, #4or#5isthe oneI remember.

Butthatjustseem_ed soavant garde; it didn't even seem like comics tome,it seemed likeweird, 11 pretentious artists.

OPPOSITE:AnQ/her

painting, this rime a back coverfor Drown& Quarterly Ill. ABOVE:Matt's early art

.,clwal days. as portrayed' in Peepshow: The Cartoon Diary of Joe Matl.

57

"I'dseeCrumb's LISTEN,KID.AltTSATRICKY81/S/NESSM ..TAKEA Loot{ATMY Mlt.NATURAL NEXTTo sketchbooks aswell, •LEMMETELLYA.. V'NEEDALLTHEHEL, PROF.l,JoT/lSl'J<>UJ.E l=ROl"f £,(. SE611R's f'oPf.'fE 1 THRT5AN'IOIJE m,.P F!WMlNf £ARLYlt30s .'!SE£.?, soI started keeping YCMI6ET:: EVERYONE HASTHEIR INFLUENC£~ .. GODKNOWS onemyself and I'VE HADMINE... doing littlestrips about mylifeandjust in'cidents thatwould happen ona daily basis, likea diary."

.. So YOOt<EEP ATIT,KIO..

• Y'OOtN'FINE:t Wfu,_,YO(J KNOWliOW IT

IS.. HEH..HEH..

,,

. r,',

,,,

"'i,,..

--

TOP: Mnlf does Crumb.

ABOVE,: Cover to the KitcherJ Sink collec1io11.

OPPOSITE: Mau ':r life as ii

colorist mt displt,y.

58

right away.It wasgreat,I just wanted 10 bedowntownagain.I would sleep on his floor, I wasjust so happyto be out of my mom's house.I wasdeterminedto movebackinto thecity, but I didn't wantto getajob. [laughs)But I gotajob workingatFatJack'sComic Crypt,unloadingatruckatthreein the morning.That wasjust one night a week,andthatpaidthe$200a month rentthatI hadonceI gotanapartment with Kevin,myold roommate.Soany moneyI madecoloring for Man was moneyfor food.As I washangingout with Matt, he waskeepinga sketchbook... He's alwaysbeena very fast workerand a hard worker andI stancdkeepinga sketchbookas well. This coincidedwith thetime I wasreally discoveringCrumb.

Pekar,and Spiegelman'swork. I'd seeCrumb'ssketchbooksas well, so I startedkeepingone myselfanddoing little strips aboutmy life andjust incidentsthat would happenon a daily basis,like a diary. EveryoneI knew.

Mall andall his friends.gotabig kick out of lookingat my sketchbook.Soafter I felt confidentenoughI decidedto stan myfirst realpagethatsummerof '87. LikeMan,Ijust wantedto havemyown book.Hewasmakingreallygood THECOMICSJOURNAI. JOE

MATT

INTERVIEW

money,andhe wasworking ar home,and he ownedhis own copyright, and I just wantedto be like that So I figured I'd start this pageand stick with it until I had enoughdonefor a book.

BRAYSHAW:And Mallwassupponiveof thatwork?

MATT: Oh yeah.

BRAYSHAW:Didyou show the workto Comico?

MATT: Yeah,that was the only publisherI wasin touch with, andI wasin closecommunicationwith them.Diana [Schutz] liked the stuff, and there was probably some mention of them publishing it, but in my mind I did perceivethem as a cenain type of publisherthat really shouldn'tbe interestedin me.

BRAYSHAW:But KitchenSink was?

MATT: Yeah,KitchenSink seemedlike theoneI wantedto mostbewith. !sentthemthefirst20 pageswhentheywere done,xeroxes.And theyexpressedinterestright away.So I wasvery happy.

BRAYSHAW:Thoseappearedin Snarf?

MATT: Yeah,five at a time.I guessthat wasin 1988.

BRAYSHAW:Then subsequemlyDrawn & Quarterlyran

someas well?

MATT: Yeah,Chris Oliveros had wrinen to me through KitchenSink, andcoincidentallywe wereboth living in Montreal,soJjust \ventandknoc)ced on hisdooronceI got his letter and we struck up a friendshipimmediately.I 11/U JANUARY199>1

startedputtingmorepagesinto his magazineas well.But my eye wasalwayson thecollection.

BRAYSHAW: You said that you hadn't looked over rhe marerialrecently,butdoyou haveanythoughtsabout1he Ki1che11 Sinkcollectio11, as a unit?

MATT: [laughs]Yeah,I see it as prettyjuvenile.It's embarrassingin a lotof ways.butnotcompletely,becauseI was doingmybestat thetime.ButI neverlookthroughit.Itjust doesn't appealto me.

BRAYSHAW: Oneof the rhi11gs thatdid interestme aboutit thoughis the wayyou don't eversel/le011storiesabout yourlifeas it iscurrentlyinprogress;they'reinterspersed with memoriesof growingup or withfantasiesor play strips.There'sa realsenseof varietyto thematerial.It's explodingall overrheplace.

MATT: I saw this collectionas a base that wouldsupport furthercollectionsthat wouldexpoundon some of the sametopicsor stories.likeI'm doingwith my childhood story.ButI wasunderthecompletedelusionthatI wasfast. ..JUSTREIIIEMIEf.[laughs)I wasthinkingI couldget out a collectiona year KIO• WHlfT'EV£R or something.God knowswhatI wasthinking.But I did wantto coveras muchgroundas quicklyas possible,just IN5P/1(£SYOU• in case that was maybethe only book I wouldever do.

Maybe I'd die, who knows?I wanted to get as much FO&.&OW coveredas quicklyas possible.

1'HIWkS BRAVSHAW: Somewherein there, Mau gave you work •u 'R' ,, IN" coloringthe infamousBatma11/Gre11del book. Wasthere ' away . wasa realclearsenseof commercialworktaking ! / timerhatcouldhavebeenusedto doyourown work?

1MATT:Sure, butI lookedat itas thelastbigkilling.Matthad ~"'. ·." quotedmea figureand it felt likewinninga lottery,so I ·umpedat it,andfiguredr coulddo it in twomonths,little realizingit wouldtakethreeyearsto get paidfor it. So for thosethreeyearsI waskindof adamant,eventhoughI was broke,it waslike,"Thatwasmylastjob, I toldmyselfthat I wasn'tgoingto do anymore!"AndI didn't, butfor those • threeyearsI hadan annualincomeof under$1,000each year.I waslivingoffof the50bucksa pagemystripswere

WO1.ooKAT THESi6EMSFROf'fTHE l'ISo's!! t1.Y~ MA~ZWESlfAOAMl>FoUNDEFFECTON E !! HAR\lfY t<URTZMIIN ..w1uEL.DfR..1,,J<X.VEl{ToN ...

"Matthadquoted meafigure and it feltlikewinning a lottery, soI jumped atit,andfigured I could [color Grendel] intwomonths, littlerealizing it would takethreeyears to getpaidforit."

•I!!

4

••

CMON, JOE-· FEEL

LOOI(, I OOliT CAREIF YOV ARE 8ANICAIIPT! AS MY EK· l'USLISHE/1,

EV !'1A1T: IS

8ATMAN's E

THE 8A8V ICICK!

You 8ASTARPS01,,1£ME MONEY AIJO I'VE GOT

OR PJIIIT oF' I/IS

CAPE?

EW! NO THANl(S!

PEOPLE To PAV!!

I'LL flASS:

NEVEi( 6ETrlN6 PAIP .I'M

_rt DANA NANA NA NA NA • DA NII NII NA NA NA N,4 • •

BATMAN,'~

FOIi THIS Jo8 !

MIIN, I TELL'y4 ...

SOP.RY,TRISH, ..

8AR.8 SPENDS

Bur

TI/E MONEV FASTEP.

I

T///11,J

CAN MAKE 1r ...

I 11.V

:r ,JVST CAN'T

•

R.ESIST WATCI/IN6 THIS

PLAVBOVCHIIHNEL!

8EStOES, Tl(E P.ECEPT/01,,s So SCRAMIU,EO, I CAN BAR.ELY SEE WI/AT'S HAPPEIJIN6

Tll£COMIC$JOURNAlJOE

I'D 8ETrER, 6ET To BED ANO !=IN! SH

THESE PAGES TOMORRow!

f

MATT

INTERVIEW

1/83 JAJIUAIIYl!l9<i

59

"Alright, masturbation!

Topofthechart!

Masturbation isrightupthere.

Reading comics, biking, shooting pool, playing cards, hitting bookstores ...

I spend alotoftime alone andI canjust layaround myroom justthinking for hours, youknow?"

u

spare time on his hands.

60

,r CO~ES! I-I-I~

G•GONNA

LET'S SEE NOW•- WHAT CAN I USE? MAYBE AN OLD PORNFILM ? NAH, I'M TIREDOF USING THOSE SAME 01.0 SCENES --·MAYSE THAT GIRL I SAW IN THE LIBRARYVESTERDAV- • /VAH, TOO MILK~ED. J!AHH-· I HAVE IT...

ABOVE: Joe Mau with .,ome

H·H·HERE

()

getting in S11arf and Draw11 &Quarterly.ln a lot of ways,I think this contributedto the break upofTrishandI because I wassodamnpennyconscious.I wasunbearable to be around.I wouldn't spend a dime for anything- I didn't haveit, and I wouldn'tworkfor it.

BRAYSl!AW: Do you feel that that wasa situation you couldhavecha11ged had you taken commercialwork?Thatyouhadmadea veryconsciouschoicenot to?

MATT:Yeah,I just fearedheadingdown a road I would neverget off of. I turneddownan animationjob on the Batmancartoonseries,and I turneddowncoloringjobs thatDianaSchutzwasofferingme.Everythingtakesmeso damnlong!I thinkI colored14issuesof Gre11del priorto Batma11/Gre11del, and it felt like I was spendinga lot of THECOl>IICSJOURNAL JOE MATT INTERVIEW

money... You justify your spendingas you make the moneyand it just becomesa viciouscycle and I really fearedbeingtrappedin it.

BRAYSNAW: Do youfeel that withthe sacrificesyou made in ten,,sof not takingwell-payingwork, thedifficultiesof beingpoor,and the resultingstrain that thatput 011your lifea11don your relationships,that thatdecisionwasstill a goodone?Havingthatfreedom to do your own work?

Wasdisciplinedeveloped?

MATT:Yeah,disciplinewas developed,and I still have discipline.But [sigh]I'm just so lazy.How's that for a contradiction?

[Laughter].As it is now,I haven'tworked inabouta month,assoonasl finishedissue#8.ButI enjoy free timeso much,you know?It's worthit to me to not havethe moneythat wouldcomefromhavingdoneanythingelse.

BRAYSHAW: Whatdo you do in yourfree time?

MATT:!guessit's inthecomics.[laughter]Alright.masturbation!Top of the chart!Masturbationis rightup there.

Readingcomics,biking, shootingpool, playingcards. hittingbookstores ... I spenda lot of time aloneand I can just lay around my roomjust thinking for hours, you know?

BRAYSHAW: Now whenyou say "thinking," is that day-

ll8J JAJ/U~RY/99(,

a

dreaming?

MATT: Yeah,it's daydreaming.

BRAYSHAW: In a se11se, a lot of the prepatoryworkfor a book might not 11ecessprily involvethe physicalact of pe11cilling, inking,and le11eri11g.

But ratherstructuring somethingin yourmi11d.

MATT: Yeah,I'm constantlyformingscenesin my mind, and keepingthemveryseparateand wonderinghowI'm goingto arrangethesescenes.I'm alwaysthinkingabout the informationI wantto conveyin the currentstoryline.

It's alwaysa challengeto workall that informationintoa scenethat flowsnaturalistically.

BRAYSHAW: /,1 termsof wantingto conveyseveraldiffrent thingsifl the samescene? • _ MATT: Exactly.I c-0uldpullout.anypaneland explainhowdeliberateit was.Justthe things two people.might be saying to each other communicatesso muchabouttheircharacter and tells you so much about them, much morethanthe surfacelevel.Bui mostlyI'm just daydreamingaboutsomegirl or otherI l'Ughthave a crush-0n.

I

readerswouldreactto this?

MATT: I assumed,especiallywith a femalereader. that they'd be fairly indignant.I enjoyeda certainseriseof manipulativepowerthat I.wasgetting.[laughs] BRAYSHAW: In thesenseof instantnotoriety?

MATT: No,just pullingpeople'semotional•strings.

Notoriety wasn't the issueal all.

BRAYSHAW: Looki11g back, do you thi11kthat "pul/i11g people'sstri11gs" wasa successfulchoiceto makeat that particularpoint?

MATT: No.UltimatelyI feltthatthatmotivationwasimpure in the sensethat it wasn'tconduciveto whatI considered lo be art. It's somethingelse. Likedoing somethingfor fameor for money.orsomething.It was impureart. But

I DoN·r WANT YOUDOING A STRIP ABOUT THIS !

.

THIS ISN'T EVEN HOW IT HAPPENED.'!

OUTRAGEOUS AESTHETICS

BRAYSHAW: Tellme whatit's bee11 like working with ChrisOliverosat Draw11 & Quarterlyo11 theregularseries.Doeshe havea11y editorialinputinto thefinishedbooks?

MATT: No, none at a11.·He's very much a dream publisher:Just tum the book in, he printsit up beautifully,andthat's it. There's no editorializing.Even on lateness- he's too niceof a guy, he's reallynot cut out for p,ubJ.ishing.

He doesn't even berate you if you're late.

BRAYSHAW: Tell me about startingthe 11ew seriesfor Drawnand Quarterly.D/d itfeel like afresh start,or a chanceto do thingsdifferently?

MATT: Yeah.of course.Thechanceto drawlarger... Itjust seemedlikea reallybig opportunity.I reallyfelt likeI'd be visiblefor the first time,whereJ.was hidingin those anthologiespriorlo that. I wantedto makea big splash.

The firstissuewas verycontrivedin that sensebecauseI figuredthis was the most outrageousstory I could have told-a crushon my girlfriend'sfriend,andgivinghera blackeye... Justbasicallyspillingeverythingl couldand exaggeratingit. I knew this was going to be difficultto showto Trish,but I wasexaggerating.[laughs]But I was • verywaryof howshe'd receiveit. FoolishlyI washoping she'd stand behind me. like Howard Stern's wife or something,andbelievemewhenI triedto explainthata lot ofthis wasjust for show.

BRAYSHAW: Whatwas her reactionto it?

MATT: Shejust flewoff the handle.Some thingsarejust better left unspokenin a relationship,I guess. You're alwaysgoing to be attracted10 other people,but in this case,I don't thinkI evereven talkedto thatgirl.Andthat girlwasoneof a dozenmaytie.I mean,lookingbacknow, irwasreallythesymptomsof a relationshipwindingdown becausel hadn't lookedat anygirlspriorto thisforyears.

Andpartof it wasbeingin thecityagainafterbeingout in the suburbsfor a year.

BRAYSHAW: So whe11 you say you tookcircumstancesa11d deliberatelyexaggeratethem,how did you assumethat

"I knew thiswas going tobedifficult to show toTrish, but I wasexaggerating. [laughs] ButI wasvery waryofhowshe'd receive it. Foolishly I washoping she'd stand behind me,like Howard Stern's wife ' . orsomething, and believe mewhen I triedtoexplain that alotofthiswasjust forshow."

OHHH ... e>o wE. HAVE To GO

THIS

THROUGH

EVERY TtME ? •

•

•

YOUFUCKIN' ASSHOlE!!

I couldn't reallysee ii at the time. I felt it was the best story I had to tell at the time,andI enjoyeddoing it. But ultimatelyI feellikemy firstsix issuesstanctupalittlebit betterthan the KitchenSinkcollection,bui there was no grand planor scheme;I didn't envisionissue#6 when I started issue #1. Tha't's no way to put a collectionor a story together._ It's not a story.It's a meanderingthing.

But this is the problemI tried to correct withthe childhoodstory.I wanted,for thefirsttime,10 tryandconceive a large narrativeand proceedto tell it, knowingwhereit wasgoing.

BRAYSHAW: Somethingwitha begi1111i11g, a middle,an end,

TIIECOMIC'SJOURNAI..

JOE

MATT

INTERVIEW

1/&J JANUARY /99(,

ABOVE:Mall'., combative

rellllion:.hlp with Trish;

from the c;oncludlng portion.<<ifthe collection.

61

\o/l'Ll, I DO THIS COMIC BOOK CALLEO PEEPSHOW. SEE ? ITS ·AUT08to6RIIPHtC:IIL, ALTHOUGH I DON'T LIKE TO C~LL IT TNI/T. OH, /\11/VI SEE ONE?

NO· HO NO !

' THEV'RE WAY Too

'PERSONAL .' THEY'RE MOREFOR COMPLETE STRANGERS .' HEH.. HEH..

B-8E5tDES /T's NOT EVEN REALLY M·ME •1 I· IT'S MOR€ LIKE

AN EXAGERRATEI> C·CARICATURE .' /.1£H.. HEH .. HEH..

" I'vebeen single tharwasveryclearlystructuredwhenyou wentin. forfouryears now, MATT:Exactly.Very much a filmmakerpreparing since Trish.

Abig like 10 make a film: a lot of reason I couldn't preparationwork,and then startingit. getintoarelation• just BRAYSHAW: Oneofthethi11gs meaboutthe shipis- andthis thati11terested issuesof" Binswacker"folstillmight be lowi11g·the breakupwasthewayit wasopen-ended.just life lry and understandmyself.ll's probablymoreaboutme prevalent - isthat eve11tsoccurringoneaftertheother.Buti11·anothersense now than il is about me as a child. But il just has the irseemedtherewerecerrainsiruationsthatkeptcomingup of childhood.In manyways,the friendshipwith I don'twant torepeat illyour lifeagainand again,and in depictingthose,you trappings Davidis similar to my friendshipwith Seib right now. allthemistakes, and seem to be drawingcomparisonsbetweenseparatecir- Conversationscan be verysimilar. cwnstances,or seeinghowyou.couldreactdifferentlyto BRAYSHAW: But it seems-rome thatfrom howyou depict I don'twantit to similar circumstances.And I thoughtthar was a very Sethi;ithecomic,whileyoumightberesentfulofhiminthe enduplikethelast interestingwayofgoingabouttellinga story.I don'tknow •short-term/orsomethingthathetellsyouorfor a criricism to wha1extentthat wasconsciousor not. . he levelsa, you, i11the long-rerm 1hefriendships bothwilh relationship did. MATT:Yeah,wellissues#4, #5, and#6 wereconceivedas ' him and Chesterare thi11gsthat have been e11ormously whole.AndagainI wasattempting10utili~eissue#l-#3. val11able to you.

• I would sayI've· got aWhen I startedissue #41 was thinkingof.thecollection. MATT:Completely.LikeI said,thereasonfortheexaminaarealfearof Issues#!,#2,and#3areveryindividualisstfesinmymirill: tionof relationships,whetherthey'remaleorfemale,Ifeel crush, the break-up,the floundering.In real life, the a real urgencyor desireforthem to last. ILre.allybugs me commitment, and The flounderingandtheattemptto finda girlfriend,therewere -and! don't know.why,maybeit's a resistanceto change afearofintimacy,abouttwodozenof them,therewereso many,andil was. or something- but I hale the fact that so many people thesamestorywitheverysingleone:I'd ge~them havecomein andoul ofmy life,andmostof themI'm not allthatstuff." always backlo myroom,showthema fewView-Masler·reels; and even in touchwith.Trish forexample,youknow?Some-

.

.

it was just likeBill Murrayin GroundhogDay )'/herehe, one I knewso well,and viceversa,and we're notevenon was buildingthat snowmanfor the,IOOthtime·.withthat speakingterms.ll's prettyhorrible. womanandtryingto get herinto1bedat theendof!1hedl1Y· BRAYSHAW: Havingdonethebreak-upstories,do youfeel I wasjust losingmymind.I reallywantedlo examil),e why lessemotio11ally 11e11roric? everythingwas repealingitself, and wherewas I going MATT:No. [laughs]I'm an emotionalcripple! wrong?!'d tryto kissa girlandl!d alwaysgettheshoulder. BRAYSHAW: Do you understandyourselfany betrer?

I thought,"Theoddsshouldeventuallytum forme-why MATT: I don't know.Ijust don'l know.I've beensinglefor aren't they?:'So in thatsense,thosecharactersare a bitof fouryearsnow,sinceTrish.A bigreasonIcouldn'tgelinto a composite. a relationshipis - and thisstill mightbe prevalent- is BRAYSHAW: But i11working0111 thoserec11rring circum- ihatI don't wantto repeatall themistakes,andIdon't wanl stances,did that leadyou intomoreconsciousi11trospec- it 10end up likethe last relationshipdid. I wouldsay I've tion aboutyourself?.Oneof the thingsthatFair Weather gol ~ real fearof CO(!lmitmenl, and a fear of intimacy,all seemsto do is to tryanddiscoverin childhoodthe reasons that stuff. for someof thebehaviorsinyouradultlife;itseemsrofeed BRAYSHAW: Becauseyou're not goillgrobe autonomous backinw theearlierstories. a11ymore?

Like if you're in a rela1ionshipwith another MATT:Yeah,whichis reallynol so mu'cha lookbackas il person,there'sgoingto be a certai11 amo1111t of give-andis still present-dayexamination,lhe unendingaltcmptto takewhichyoudori't reallyhaverorakeintoco11sidera1io11

..

ABOVE: Mall's self-conscious

,uuure regardinghis work.

OPPOSITT:Mall, Che.rrer Brown,md Seri, by Mal/.

62

THECO.W/CS JOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW

I/BJ JANUARY 1996

whenyou're 011your ow11?

MATT: Yeah, exactly. Freedomseems so much greater whenyou'reonyourown.Nooneis watchingyou.Noone is watchingmewastedayson end.Noone's watchingme do nothing.Theirjudgmentdoesn't come downon me.

But I still feel like I am at my best in a relationship.It Qreedsresponsibility andit encouragesi1.Alone,I'm selfindulgentandmas1Urba1ory. [laughs]ButI'm happy!I'm happy,in a sense,being thatway.Buinot in any kindof a long-1erm ... You reallyget sick of it BRAYSHAW: Yourdepictionof beingaloneseemsto be... I mean,sometimesyou'rejust lyingon yourbed smiling.

Buta lotofothertimesyou'rehangingyourheadoryou're out endlesslywalki11g the streetsafterdark.Freedomin thatsensedoesn'tseem likea reallyappealingthing.

MATT: No. It's like with anything:Everythinghas its momems,and100muchof anythingwill reallygetto you.

Like I've said in the comic, I'm a srrong believer in familiaritybreeding contempt I could be living with someoneandif I seethemeverysingledayI'm just going to stan to hatethatvoiceandhatethatface.I can't helpit.

Howdo youconquerthat?Shouldyoueventry to conquer it?Ijust needto be alonea greatdealof thetime.Trishand I livedin suchclosequanersfor those fouryears,it's no wondertha1thingswentbad.

BRAYSHAW: Do you feel that the concernsyou haveaboutrepeatingpast mistakesin relationshipsor not beingableto liveupto a,1ideal,carry over into concernwithyour work as well?Mightthosealso be reaso11s thatyou do11 't workas quickly as somebodylikeMatt \Vagner?

MATT: Sure.I'm a perfectionist.I want everythingperfect,fromthe relationships, to mywork.10theconditionof mybooks.Everythingmustbe mint.It's detrimentalandyet it's so s1rongin me.I don't knowhowto beginto combat it. If youcouldsee howmuchwhite-outI puton the page... I do putan awfullotof timeintothecomic.The infrequencyof the issuesisn't entirelydue to my laziness.It's moredue 10my slownessandperfectionism.

anythingt\ehaddone.ExceptMr.X., whichwasgarbage.

But anyway,I met them, staned hangingaround them immediately,and foundthat the three of us had a lot in common.That's all. That's howwe met.

BRAYSHAW: Havebothof thembeenusefulto you in tenns of criticismof yourwork?

• MATT: Invaluableto me. Yeah.I considerthem so completelyresponsiblefor the leapI madefromthe one-page stripsto thecomicbook.Entirely.I did thefirsttwoissues andthenI didn't knowwhereto go with the thirdissue.I penciledthewholethingandthenshowedthemthepencils and they both said, ''This completelysucks!"BecauseI wasreallytryingto disguisepeople,evenmoreso thanthat Andy and Kim couple.I was tryingto reallycreatethis wholefictitiousthingthatwasfloppingmiserably.I think I madeAndysomekindof streetperformer... ajuggleror somethinghateful like that. Anyway,Chesterand Seth bothhatedit andsaidso.I endedupstartingthewholeissue over.Andstufflikecoversketches. (laughs]I' IIshowthem coversketchesand they'll laugh!heirheadsoff andsay, "Areyouserious?!"I'm like,"Uh... no... " [laughs]I'm completelyindebtedto them.

BRAYSHAW: Youhavespokenof yourregardfor Chester's I NeverLikedYou. Whatwas it particularlyaboutthat workthatappealsto you?I thinkI see similaritiesin the storytelling betweenINeverLikedYouandFairWeather.

Thatis,notderivativethings,butstruclllralsimilarities.

MATT: Seth and I both respondwith... There's an oft-repeatedphrase,thatthe thingwe mostadmire aboutChetis hisstorytellingability. lthooksyouor at leastit hooksme.TheminuteI startreadinghis stuff, I just can't jump off. It reads and flows so naturally,thatit's just how it shouldbe. That's whatI admireabout it. And his an. And his originalityand daringfromproject-to-project or issue-to-issue.

He's covered a lot of stuff in his shon ten years. Unlike other cartoonistswho rest on their laurels and repeat them-

"Iwas incomplete • giddy fanboy mode around [Chester].

Seth was justvery peripheral.

Hejust looked likesome pretentious, affected, hanger-on, you know?

I mean, hetalked of doing acomic atthat time andI didn't know ifhewas actually going todoItor justtalkabout it I wasn't familiar with anything hehaddone.

Except Mr. X.,which wasgarbage."

THETORONTO TRIO(ANDOTHERS)

BRAYSHAW: We'vetalkedaboutyourneedfor strongmale relationships- or strongrelationships period.Twoof -your most consiste11t relationshipshave been with Seth ond with ChesterBrown. Canyou describe how you came to be in contactwith them,and becamefriends withthem?

MATT: I was living in Monirealand I came to Toronto10a convention,and that's whereI met bothof them,simultaneously,contraryto what's in the strips. I didn't know who Seth was or anything.I hadalreadyheldChesterin suchhigh es1eemandadula1ion- he was,andcontinuesto be my favoritecanoonistworkingtoday,and I was in complete giddy fanboy mode aroundhim.Seth was just very peripheral. He just looked like some pretentious, affectedhanger-on,you know? I mean,he 1alkedof doinga comicat tha1 time and I didn't knowif he was actually goingto do it or just talk aboutit. I wasn't familiarwith THECOMICSJOURNAL JOE MATT INTERVIEW

118J JANUARY/9ll<S

63

"Therelationship with mymom haschanged alotinthat- thisis fairlyrecently, maybe inthelasteightyears orso,thatI'velearned tocontrol mytemper around her.[laughs] I'vestopped arguing withher.Nobody can aggravate melike shedoes inperson."

ABOVEANDOPPOSITE:

Tltesrereorypicalcomic

fan ',t mother: Mou·., Mom in Fair Weather.

64

•• THEY'REIN THf TRASH. I THREWTHEM OUT.

selves... Especiallycartoonistswhostickwithcontinuing charactersandsuccessfulfonnulas.

BRAYSHAW: You'rebeingawfullyvaguehere.

MATT: [laughs)You knowwhoI'm talkingabout!

BRAYSHAW: Did we interviewthemlastissue?[TCJ# 178) MATT: [laughs]I don't buy the Journal,so I wouldn't know!ButI'm noonetotalk,becauseI've gotacontinuing charactertoo,youknow?

BRAYSHAW: Oneof the criticismsthatgets levelledat you by readers,whichI thinkperhapsis not a verysophisti• catedcriticism,isthe ideathat, "Weloveyoubecauseyou get dumpedon." I thinkthat's basedon a verysuperficial readingof thebook.lnfact,justreadingoverallyourwork beforedoing the interviewtoday,I was reallystruckby how much changethere is, both in terms of how you actuallystructure·stories,and in the varietyof material thatyouconsider.There'sa muchwidervarietyof themes thanjust you gettingdumped011.

MATT: Yeah,I wouldguess that that relationshipstuff is moreentertainingand funnierto peoplein my agegroup whocan relateto it beuer.It's understandable.

I expected salesor interestto drop in thiscurrentstory.But,c'est la v,e.

QRAYSHAW: Well,maybethat'sbetterthanbeingsomebody like,say, Ed Brubakerandjust perpetuatingthesame...

MATT: Look Ed, we're talking about you! [laughs)No, perpetuatingwhat?

BRAYSHAW: Well,just the samekindof superficialangst· riddenstoriesoverand over,issueafterissue.

MATT: Yeah, well,I don't reallyidentifywith the slacker generation.

BRAYSHAW: You'redismissiveof muchof the stuff in the KitchenSinkcollection.Oneof the thingsthatinterested TH£COMIC$/OU/IJ/AL JOE MATT INTERVIEW

me was that there was a lot of really straightforward observation i11it, whichworkedreallywellinstripslikethe oneyou didaboutgoingto visityourfather afterhisheart attack,or your biographyof yourgrandfather.Just very simplytold,11011-inflecred pieces,whichseemverycloseto the kind of rhythmsand structuresyou're workingwith now.

MATT: Yeah,I still likethe grandfatherstrip.Towardsthe end of the KitchenSink book, I was tryingto do longer stories.My father's heart attack and the shiatsu strip...

They mightbe the strongestthingsin therejust because they're longer.

BRAYSHAW: I'm thinkingof your stripaboutyourfather, how it speaks to a whole bunch of things that you're concernedwith. Yourfamily,and to the collecting,and.it kindof analyzesthatacquisitivementalityas well,in a way thatI thoughtwasreallyi11teresti11g and reallymoving.

MATT: Yeah, I ended up buying that damn Pee-Wee's Playhousefora secondand thirdtime,andgettingridof it againand again.[laughs]I currentlydon't own it. I don't want it. Yeah, his heart attack was a hard thing for me becauseI alwaysjustexpectthe worst.In mymindhe was alreadyin the grave.It was hard to deal with.

BRAYSHAW: Do youfeel closeto yourpare111s?

MATT: Oh yeah. Extremely.

BRAYSHAW: Did youas a kid?

MATT: yeah, I'd say so.

BRAYSHAW: Havetheirrelationshipschangedwithage in any way?/11Fair Weather,you portrayyour mom way moresympathe1ically andfairlythanyouda in theKitchen Sinkwork.Shedoesn'tcomeacrossasquiteas superficial.

MATT: Yeah.The relationshipwith my momhas changed a lotinthat-this is fairlyrecently,maybein thelasteight I/BJ JANUARY1996

/VIAYBEIF YOUHAD MOWED THE LAWN WHEN l ASKED 'IOU TO, THIS ,.,IGHT NOT HAVEHAP--

yearsor so, thatI've learnedto controlmytemperaround her.[laughs)I've stoppedarguingwithher.Nobodycan aggravateme likeshedoes in person.I'm aroundher for mereminutes,andallthebuttonsarebeingpushedandI'm completelyreadyto fly off the handle.I can't explainit, butit definitelyis somehowrelatedto myrelation~hips, or myproblems,withwomen.ButI've learnedtokeepa civil tongue.and relaxa bit morearoundher. I've givenup tryingtochangeher,I shouldsay.l'vealwaysthoughtthat

thispreoccupationwithJesus... I've alwaysfelt likeI've wantedherto facerealityandfaceherself,andI've always feltthata stronghandforcingherto do thatwouldbe the bestsolution.ButI wascompletelydeludingmyself.

BRAYSHAW: / thinkthat'sprobablyindicativeof-listen to me talk! - but that sowuls like a more mature,more sympatheticapproach,whichmirrorswluuI thinkI seein thecomic.

MATI:Maybe.She's meanerin the comic though.In the secondchapterof FairWeather,she's realmean![laughs] BRAYSHAW: Yeah,burwe'vejust seenyoui11action,right?

Weget to see you 011 the phone,and we get to see your responsesto her,andhermom.

MATI:[laughs)Yeah,I've neverreallycompletelyhealed fromthatincident.

BRAVSHAW: Justbecausethat waskindof o threatto the stabilityyoutalkaboutliking?Thatsomeoneelsecoulddo thatto yourpossessions?

MATI:Yeah,the disorderof the universe.That mightbe whatcollectingis asymptomof.Theurgetocontrolthings, or to put an orderto things.

BRAVSHAW: Doyou thinkthatacquiringthingsis a substitutefor relationships withpeople?

MATI:No.... I feel like I'm on the psychiatrist'scouch!

BRAYSHAW: Doyou thinkthatcollecti11g thingsis a wayof sublimatingor externalizingthings that are bothering you? I'm thinkingspecificallyof-the strip whereyour father is convalescing from his heartattack,'andyou're very,veryupsetby it andhavingdifficultydiscussingthat upsetwithanyof yourfamily. Yo11 go outandobsessively acquirea bunchof toysandplaywiththem.Andyoucan't quirefigureout whyyou wantedthem,but obviouslythey wereservingsomereallyimportantneedat rharrime.

MATI:Yeah,I'm notsurewhatthatneedis, though.I don't know.I can't get anydistancebecauseI'm stillthat way.

I'm stillacquisitive.I alwaysthink,"It's thethings!Gotta havethem!"

BRAVSHAW: Doyouassociatethosethingswithparticular memoriesor eventsfrom childhood?

MAn: Notalways.I wasjust in L.A.f!)rthreeweeksand I

1~LL ME!

Tll£COMIC$JOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW

I/BJ JANUARY1996

"She's meaner in thecomic though.

Inthesecond chapter ofFairWeather, she's realmean!n

•buyinglalf sorts of booksth'atI neverwould i , "Gb~ste~ is :.calf'ilroand

B~YSHAw: Canyoufalkaboutconsciousreasons/orihat?'

MATT: The approachis doinglongerstoriesas opposedto,

y~rs ago.It's n19s1Jy t?ooks.Th~tstripwas seeing h.isw9rk,as · 'Jiavei;wan!ed just abouta mil.dflirtationwithtoycpllectingthatI nipped a single page,just a little vignette.That's mostly the collections as.we!I,. but. in the bud. It wasjust a few View-masterreelsand not • reason.Youcan'tjust stringtogethera bunchof gagsfor mu~hmore,Butbookshavealwaysbeenthethingthatl'm n'oreasonandexpect'itto be a story. more tothepoi~t thaj ~o's,!3ftivelyseeking,practicallyeveryday. . B;I\AYSIIAW: But whatI'm gettingat is, in the earlystrips, ., ·, Eio>°LOIT SEX thehwnorseemeda lot lighteror moregentler. . he'sunco1J1promising 4Tl6N ANDEMPTY,HOLLOW " MATT: Okay,to answeryourquestion,I wasin lovewhen inth~t,whe_n hegejs BRAYSHAW:Te/1 me-abouttheaudienceyouhavefound/or I st;i.rtedtheliook,andthatdeterioratedthro·ugbthecourse maieri~l.Doyo'Ufeeltlzatyouhavea "representative 9.f the boolc.BasicallY. the relationshipwasover when( ,.tothela.st page of, ~our lludierice ?\ And if so, do youfei;l that that audie,fceis. :Startedth€firstissue,andthat.prettymuchaccountsforit. the,comi~,:thafs~ fe!lowi1iiwhatY(?U'.r.e doingandaresympathetic tochanges My head,was·in thSlclou'ds~riorto t~at. l;levelt1pme111s whic/1,you 're mqking? ' ,,BRAYSHAW; /'111eve11 thinkingofsomethingiii E'airWeather, wher~ theax.falls. or MATT: I'm riotcealry:S,~.I feela largepan of myaudience thesequencewithGpil,theretardedgirl,at the7-1I. /11a Andthe,reader. hasto inigtit-jps..tbe' peoplt1whoa1e indulgingin a current· se11se,thpt'.iqre,ally;rea(lyfup11y scene-· but ind11other ' Eig~{bii.11, :; . sense,it's ,ith:y't,,v;otiifortable' io read.•Whe11 you,hit the likeit orlump it., flirtati0,(withc9mics:M~ybetheyfoundHateor airdmaybej.u~Jin tht;lastfewyearstheyhavediscoveri;(l. seque,nce bftlie condllfSiO.Q you see she's pelidli11g away ahemJ\tivfcoinics and thiy','{.e crying.Thehumor}!Ow Sfe,ysmorecynica'lor iro11{c than It doesn't even matter t~ese bla,g~,~~Jf,white 11!:~,uq_d'WlJi<!h O,Hr5 a'regood,andthat's led.someof. , . ,b_efare.,/tseems hdrder..'1 .. . if it makes sense asji.ed th~m ~~ ch~~ ,?u( 1my b?<;>k·, But i_td~n•t feel,very .., ~-~TT:,Y ~h ....I ~?uld hqre it's ,l!_!llaturingprocess, or ii_n . because again, it's permanent,youknciw?ft' s hkeany(hrtatton-. I feelthat evoluuon. ~Aeau\lieitce1,s\lery'uh,stable.

I feelthe largemajorityof:' .• BRAYSHAW: Flieresee1113r also to be 111qre ;of<'a j11dgme11t onlythecollectioni~eaucfJ,ene(\jusl\\1/ants to:l>eentertl\in'ed,and-isn't looking ' passedon·yoflryo1111ger selfthatJdon•'t11eceisarily think thatcounts.

But afthese tl,iing'stoo ,sefiously.,:ha~s just my·guess,the waspresentintheearlierwork.Youseemtobemuchmore thi>ilght t'h'ataltem'a!ivqcomics mighfbeperceivedas hip' • corisciously maklngjudg'me11ts aboutyourself.I'm won-' I can'twork thatway, and>cool.by,fnat age group,and they'.lloutgrowthem deringwhethe_r thatmightbe a co11scious thingas well? ,; • MATT: No,I'm notconscious.I don't knowwhatto say·1feelacertain ma§be.' ' • • • BRAYSffAW: Right, i/µ11the subject ,natter m{gh1have ,'you'r!)asking'totlghquestioos.I just don't.know. obligation topeople c;hapg~d,dramqticaUy-from a Marvelor a DCcomic,but - 111\AYS!f.AW, Someof theed'rjlerKitchen Sinkstripsarejust. i('s:~,iJi.sposable /onn of entertai11ment, O,f it's per~es~ripfi~~. tatalogs r;fyourself- "Thingsyou need to picking upthecomic siill c.eiv.edas~eJ.11g efiSf!psa_ble. ' •• lu;owaliputJ~e Matt, parts qTJe~ tw9, and three." You togivethem some• M/lfl';'Yeah....N111eh''like a lot of peopleembracedthe p,re/(Ymuch lay oil/ characteristics- and a Lotof the, ~ut.'.. My aS(?irations "re muchh!g~er. earlier·stripsf,!fo,!Ji:z.t PS,.."(ell, where.youjust kind of thingsatisfying,"unclergrp~n~s BR/'YSl;l~'(I': W,el~ .L'venoticedthatthe word"collection·• describespm,i·aspfctof yourcharacter- but you.·do,;•t ••• r

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lrps•?9me;up,a {oi ' . nzakea jiJ.agnten(.1l~Out it, Yo_u-just simplydepict'solne fdAtj: .''4eah,,t~e comics mean nothing to m·e,really. event_tqat~eiit'o;t..Or if Y,atiqo discusssoi11ethi11g, you Th~y''rejus) glorified xeroxedpamphletstha\ will ~ ... .dfstuss !tver1qui<:kly. f,.ikewhat-you-saydboutpon1: ~<>Jg_otteii.j~ 20 -~,e,!lr~ .. They won't be aroun~.tliey',re.••• "W,ell,l'know1t,degra/i~f•WOmeJJ, but I.was1e111porarily meaningless:Xnd the audienceis comearativelysmall, willingto overlookthisbecauseI wasLustful. " 11 6.J)OO'or'some:tbing, initially.But tnecollectionsreally,I' MATT: r1augh~l Yeah,yeah'.::'··· hope,h~vethe;Stayif!g power. .

• • • 1B~YSHA~:.And it seemstb"!e that.the/a{e,rworkis 11iuch • BRAYSHAW: Oneof 1he-cri,ticisms thathasbee11 leve/ledat • mbreconcerned,withjudging decisionsLiketnacoranalyzsay,Cliesie(s VmJe_rw'a.ier is thatthei11di~idual issuesare ''in~'th(ngs.'lik,e that, or thinkingthr,oughissu~slike that pr,ettymuch ahin?Jlligible on their ow11,that,is, tlrey 'm1,ch111ore consciously.

• • prov/de-such a smallehw1kofa Largerstorythatit's realiy MATT:'Sure.I 'deti~i\elyput mor~'ihoughtinto them.The hprdfor someonetofigure out 1rhat'sgoingon. Do'you .· single~page stripswere very•insignific'ant in my.mind.It feel a heedto structureindividualissuesso thaii11asense • wasmore!hesum'ofth~totalihaicounted.Again,it's the theyqlmost.§tand,alorw,i11depe11de11t of the Largersto{'Y? approachoftr.yingtotell alongerst9ry,structuring scenes...

M:4TT: Yeah;lthinWth~t's prettyapparentintheissues.1Jie . Thatchangeseye_rything.

Thatmakesyouthinkmoreand issuesfeellike_ t~ey.~pen'and<;lose, likechapte[S,In,terfns ••thoseth9ughtsleadto otherthought~...

• of t~~ing. of .1~5rlle9tion!!h~t maY.not ~ the best ,,;. 'BRA~w: 1;k11~.",: jt wo,uld)Je difficultbecauseofthepacr approach:i:::hesterrs s~emghisworkascollectionsas well, atwh,chy,oti_ work,~utcouldyou eversee-your.self doing liiitm,oreto'tli~poin'ithat he's uncompromising Jn that, a stan'd-aloneg}aphic.novel? .

• whenhegytsto the!lastpag~of thecomic,that'swherethe MATT:Sure.;}de~lly that's the-wayit shoulei.beworking: a~ falls.Anp_ t~~r'i3~t;r.has?9.lik!,l it or lu~~ ~t.,Itdoesn't • Tryingto procfuce a 200-pages.trip~pvelandthenhaveit even matterJf 11 ma~es.sense'becauseagain,it's onlythe be read th~tway.If I could get that do'neonce a year,I collectionthatcount~ButI c~n•tworkthatway.I feela . woulclIledoingthat.Justlastnight,tryingto,fallasleep,I certainoqligatiop.l9'.~plepickingup thecomicto give ·, Wl\S.Jhinkingabout this;l wasthinki(lgaboutwhenI wrap themsomethingsatisfying. up this story and I stari the next collection,I was very BRAYSHAW: The KitchenSink collectio11s are 111uch ,nore obsess~ withtryingto developa simpler,quickerstyle.I immediately fu11nyilfa,itheDrawn& Quarterlywork.Do equatethiswithusinga pennibinsteadofa brushforsome you/eelthatyourusepf humorin thestriplzascha11gedas reason.I'm obsessedwiththe.workof FrankKing;Casothe workhasmat11reif? line Al/ey, and a lot of these old strip anists that were MATT: Sure. crankingit out so quickly.I mean.they were doing six ._

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11/ECO.IIICSJOURNAL JOE MATT

•

t

INTERVIEW

...

I/SJ

I,•~

JANUARY199'5

"Theapproach isdoing longer stories asopposed toa single page, justa littlevignette.

That's mostly the reason.

You can'tjust string together a bunch ofgags fornoreason andexpect it to beastory."

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dailiesand a huge Sundayonce a week.AndSchulzis an,01her one witha great,fas1.simpletechnique.I'd love to be able 10jusl do i11ha1quickly.Il remainsto be seen though.It's a monumentalchallenge1ha1I can'tevenbear 10thinkabout.

Tl/£COMICSJOURNAl

BRAYSHAW: Haveyou hadany tlwughtsaboutthestoryline

tofollow FairWeather?

MATT:Sure.I thinkaboutit everyday. [laughs]It sounds likeI'm braggingI I'm not bragging,I swear!... I could conceivablydo a current-daystorythat wouldmakemyJOE MATT INTERVIEW

l/8J

ABOVE: Ma11•s more

mature, troubling sense of humor on display.

67

JANUARY /996

•

"You never areIn self look muchworsethanI ever have.But themotives, eventandexecutingit. Butin-regardsto thephotographs, again,seemnotartisticallymotivated.It's morewantingto I mean,evenbeinginterviewed,it adds somethingto the control.

Oneofthe shockpeopleorsomething.I don't thinkI'll dothatstory. perceptionof the comicsthat I feel a real lossof control do think of this as the definitivechildhoodstory I'm over. This interviewis completelyself-conscious.and I things thatnever Idoing now. I do want to do a teenagestory, too, that wish I could have written·the answers as opposed 10 fails tomake me wouldprobablytakeplaceimmediatelyfollowinggradu- speakingthem.Ijust hatethiswholeprocess.I'm so self. fromhighschool.But! don't knowif thatwillbet he conscious.So worriedthat th.isinterviewis boring.And miserable, isbeing ation next thing I do or not. I reallyenvy more playfuland thesamewithreal life.I worrythatI'll meeta readerand around anattractiveimaginativeand inventivestripsright now.Thingslike I'm nothinglike... Who knows?I don't knowhowI'm Ed the HappyClownstuffreallyappeals-tome, it perceived.But I like beingin control. woman, andacting Chet's lookslike a hell of a lotof fun-compared 10 whatI'm BRAYSHAW: Whydo youfeel a need to be in control? differently.

I can't doing now. Inkingan issue in my currentstyle is like MATT:[laughs)Oh, Dr. Freud... . pullingteeth, it's so torturous.But the writingand the • BRAYSHAW: It'sjust thatit's an issuethatcomesup through even talktotherri pencilingare fun. the entirebodyof work. practically.

There is BRAYSHAW:Whatdo you mean whenyou say you COffld MATT:lt'sa goodquestion.[longsilenceJIdon't know,it's "makeyourselflookworse?" just preferable,that's all. It probablystemsfroma desire a whole lecherous, MATT:WhatIi-eallymeantwas, the temptationis thereto to be lovedor something.That's probablywhereeveryppssessive side that lie or to fictionalize,while keepingthe appearanceof thingstemsfrom.I wouldimagine. autobiograph~.

Likefor instance,I could_rotally fabricate BRAYSHAW: looking at Fair We~ther,one of the things wants tograb them, a scenewhereI'm rapinga woman,andI coulddoitinsuch thatstrikesmethereis thathowoftenyou depictyourself waythat it wouldseemplausibleor something.It's just as not being in control.That is, your comiccollection orbeaccepted and athat wholetemptationof-powerto manipulatethe readers vanishes011 you, and one of your old friends, Rizzo, is loved bythem." that I've gotto resist. now out 10 kill youfor reasonsyou can't quite t'1tderBRAYSHAW: Do you see yourselftradingon thatpowerin

sta11d.That kind of suburba_n worldseems like a scary reallife?Thatis;fromsome'ofthe lettersthatyouprint,it and arbitraryplace. seemslikesomepeoplealmostwantto meet"JoeMattthe MATT:Yeah.It's even worseas an adult. You neverare fucked-upcartooncharacter."

• in control.One of the things that never fails to make MATT: Yeah.I alwaysfeeldisappoint,,,,,,.-:-----:~:-----... me miserable,is beingaroundan attracing in real life. i don't really ~OE ft\"7r's tive woman, and acting expectto meetanyof differently.I can't the. readers.. I' ye even talk to neverwanted·to them practi• doanythingconcally.Thereis trary- to the a whole,lechcomic;.Ididn't erous,posseseven wantmy sive side that photograph wants to grab printe(I. Years them, or be acago I thought, ceptedand loved ''I'm goingto conby them. There are trolanyphotosofme _allthesethingsatwork, being printed, be• and I'll! so awareof cause!don't wantto • them, that it domidraw attention to fact natesanyotherpersonthatthe comicisn't realality. ity."I'd just likereaders BRAYSHAW: Do you make 10 be able to get lost in a distinctionbetweenhavthecomicandbuyinto ing sex andbeinglovedor it: lbeingaccepted?

BRAYSHAW: And to acMATT:Sure, entirely. Of ceptitas somethingthat C't>urse. standsapartfrom yourBRAVSHAW:Andhaveyoubeen self.

• involvedill MATT:Yeah.

MATT:Yeah,I've had empty, BRAYSHAW:Butsomewhere hollowsex. . ill thosebreakupstories,that BRAYSHAW: Oh no, no, that's· relationshipgot pretty con/us-. not... WhatI wasaskingwas,have ing.ltfeltveryimmediate.Thebreakup you beenin relationships,maleorfestorieswere·condensed andchangedand male,whereyou havefelt thatacceptance,and people weredisguised,but at the same otherissueshavekindoffal/enaway?I mean,ina sense, time,theyfelt reallyimmediate.Maybe your relationshipwith Sethsee,nsa bit like that, where that's a tributeto how they'retold. _. -.-there are disagreements MATT:They weren't immediate.There • but... ~ was at leasta year's time betweenthe MATT: Yeah,there'sChester,Seth,

0 •

ABOVE: A .,1a11d-alone Joe

Mau image. playing on his growing reputmion.

68

THECOMICSJOURJIAL JOE MATT INTERVIEW

1183 JANUARY1996

,r's OKAY, L/IVl(A ANO ' ' I SHAR£ EVERVTHING.

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"You asked about thedistinction between sex,andsexwithlove ...

Thepartthatinfuriates meis...Thewhole sexual driveinfuriates me.Sooften it'sthe physical thatattracts me,andit'sthesex I'mafter, likealotof males.

Andeven once youdohave the hollow sex... [laughs] I'venever even really hadgood sex without love ...

Scratch thisout!"

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andmyold friendKevin.I feelverycloseto them.There's a certainamountof leewayand forgivenessand accep• tancethattheyhaveformethatis inexplicablein mymind.

I feel like basicallyI'm an unlikableperson,and whenI meetpeople- Sethevensays it in that strip- I havean exploitivepersonality:the minuteI meet somebody,I want to know whatbooksthey have. I mean,just being downstairswith you in the coffee shop I was thinking, "You betterpick up the bill." I'm just so opportunistic: greedy,for lackof a betterword.It's mydefiningcharacteristicin thechildhoodstory.AndI'm self-absorbedand all thatothershit.It's so hardfor me to feel anyworth,as a friend.and in a relationshipwith a female.I'm never reallysure what it is I have to offer, becauseit doesn't seemlike much.i don't want10 makeanycompromises.

Whodoes?

BRAYSHAW: Do you at least accept though that you're goingto haveto? I mean,all the timeyou werewithTrish it wasbasically,"Okay,thisis my set of criteria.so don't violatethesecriteria."

MATT: You mean.physical?

BRAYSHAW: No,just, "Okay,I livemy life,you liveyours, just don't c/leaton me."

MATT:Yeah.a lot of that is still in me and it's probably nevergoing to leave.The worst times of my life were

STILL ..•

whenjealousyrearedits ugly head.It's devastating.My criteria are [laughs]- it's so ridiculousto even have criteria.

BRAYSHAW: Weall knowaboutthe infamous"list," right?

MATT: Right,thephysical1.ist.

That'sanauemprtoestablish somecontroloverwhatI'm lookingfor and whatI want.

Needs and wants always seem to be kind of opposed though.Youaskedaboutthedistinctionbetweensex,and sexwithlove... Thepan thatinfuriatesme is... The whole sexual.driveinfuriatesme.So often it's the physicalthat attractsme,and it's the sex I'm after, likea lot of males.

Andevenonceyoudo havethe hollowsex... [laughs)I've neverevenreallyhadgoodsexwithoutlove...Scratchthis out! Yeah,the bestsex has alwaysbeen withlove,and in thatcaseit's alwaysbeenwithTrish.Therehaveonlybeen a fewothers,but it has alwaysbeenregretfulin my mind and not,worthit. But what frustratesme is that I delude myselfand thinkI actuallyam interestedin a girl or want herand am in lovewithher,whenin factit's all physical, but you can neversee it untilyou're out of it. Or,/ can't. anyway,untilI'm outsideof it or untilit's over.It's all so sickand twisted.It's feedingon rejection.Beingattracted to the unauainableor the rejectingtypes.It's awful.It's a realcursethat's got to becombatedif personalhappiness is ever 10 be attained.

TH£COM/CSJOURNALJOE

MATT INTERVIEW

I/BJ JANUARY /996

TOP: The sex scene frtm!

Peepshow#4.

ABOVE: Mall does Kilroy.

Picture by Bryce Duffy.

69

BRAYSHAW: Doyoufind thatit getseasierwithageor that "Iremember being you get moreperspectiveon it? sexually arousedMATT:Yesandno.Everydayis a learningexperience,but are plentyof dirtyold menout therewhofailedthe bytheWolf-Gal.there course.I'm just doingmy best.

That would have been '71or'72.

I must have been nine years old."

I'LLBEGOOD!

BRAYSHAW: Howdo you see it now?

MATT:It's just nostalgicnow.KitchenSink hasput out20

volumesso far andthe andoesn't lookasgoodto me as it usedto,andirdoesn'treadnearlyas wellassomethinglike GasolineAlley.There are so manystrips I prefermuch more.

BRAYSHAW: You'vejust gotten into GasolineAlley recently?

MATT:Yeah. And it hasn't been collectedat all, so I'm spendinga lotof moneybuyingtheclippedstripsfromBill Blackbeard.Someof my favoritestripsare little Orphan Annie,Popeye,KrazyKat,DickTracy,BarneyGoogle...

BRAYSHAW: Weremostof thesethingsthatyouhadseenor are all thesestripsyou've discoveredin laterlife?

MATT:Yeah, this is fairly recent. It's more or less the personalvisionthatcomesacross,and the sensibility.

BRAYSHAW:And you'reprobablymuchbettersituatednow to enjoythe wordplay,like in KrazyKat, thanyou would havebeei1as a kid.

MATT:Yeah.That remindsmeof Pogo.I stillcan't appreciateit. I canappreciatethe an,butI canneverget through it whenI try to readit. MaybesomedayI'll be readyfor ii, I don't know.

BRAYSHAW: \Vhenyou lookat a stripor whenyoujudge a strip,areyoujudgingitprimarily011thebasisof theart or 011the interactionof the art and writing?

MATT: It's alwaysthe writingfirst.I reallyfeellikethe art is secondary.Ideallythetwofunctionas one.Butalsoa lot of thesestripshavea nostalgiccharmthatdoesn'tharken backto mychildhood,butjust the whole'30s sensibility.

There's a similarityin the an, I find, in a lot of theseold newspaperstrips.I don't knowwhataccountsforit.I thil)k pan of it might be the necessityof doing these strips quicklyon a daily basis.I just see a lotof similarity<in the pen work... I can't reallyexplainit.

BRAYSHAW: Becauseit hastogetdonefast, thearthastobe deliberatelysimplified?That there's no roomfor the techniquetheyuse 110wwherethere's50millio11 linesall overeverything?

MATT:I see things like Schulz·and Frank Kingas a real distillation of the fundamentalsof cartooning.Like, nothing's a bettersubstitutefor an eye thana blackdot It extendsto solidblackpantsor something.It's so hardto explain.Youreye is controlledas you're lookingat it.The clarity,aboveall, comesacrossin all theseold strips,no matterhowmuchthey're reduced.It's so superior.

BRAYSHAW: They're1101cluttered.There'snothingbeyond what'sneededto co11veyMATT:Right,the designsandthe compositions are totally masterful.Andno matterhowmuchclutteringor detailor cross-hatchingthere is, the imageis still readilyclear.I thinkof my stylekindof asa cross betweenSchulzand Crumb,whereI simplify;I want it simpleand clear.but thenpartof mefeelsit's tooempty,so I havetoputallthese linesanddetaileverywhereto fill it out. ButI reallywish I didn't.

BRAYSHAW: One of the thingsthat surprisedand pleased me was,whenwe weretalkingearlierabouthowyoucould copyanyone.But thenyou alsosaidyou drewa lotfrom life, and that for you, drawingfrom life was just like copying,right?ThatwassomethingthatI reallygotfrom Crumbafterseeingthefil,n, watchinghimwa11der around outof doors,sketching,a11d just howquicklyandc/ea11/y somethingcouldget distilleddow1101110 thepage.

I PROMISE!

•

.., •

THEMESANDINFLUENCES BRAYSHAW: Earlieryouweretellingme howyoucollected

ABOVE:U1111ub/islred Mtm

illu.flration.

OPPOSITE:Sample from 011ecifthe [lroup .rketc/rbook.<.

70

Li'I Abnerand cut it out andput it togetherbecauseyou sawa continuitythere.thatyou wantedto preserve.

MATT:Yeah,and I reallylikethe artwork,too. I likedthe variationin line.Thecanooninessof it all.Itremindedme of the grotesquenessor thedistortionof BigDaddyRoth.

Or the guy who did thoseOdd Rod stickers,I think his name was RobertTaylor,and I totallylovedhis stuff. I copiedhimlike crazy.

BRAYSHAW: Wereyou consciouslypickingup on Capp's, politics?

MATT: No. notat all.I rememberbeingsexuallyarousedby the Wolf-Gal.That wouldhave been '71 or '72. I must havebeen nineyearsold.

111£COMICS JOURNALJOE

MATT INTERVIEW

I/BJ JANUARY IW>S