MESour 10 GETME! _,,1//,1
(laughs)They're my malerelationships.It's alwayssuch a complexthingtor mebecauseon one level,fora friend, I'm attractedtosomeonethathasastrongpersonality.I'm very impressionable,so I'm drawn towards a stron'g personalitythat will innuenceme as well as makedecisionsformeandleadme.Eventually I endup resentingit, resentingall this powerI've given up. [laughs]When I thinkof thesefriendsnow- not Davein particular,but I've hada fewothersinbetweenheandSethovertheyears - I lookbackon a lotof themwitha lotof resentmentand bitterness,I'm alwaystryingto figureouthowmuchof it's my faultand how muchof it's their fault,and how can I preventit fromhappeningagain.
BRAYSHAW:So youseeyourfriendshipwithDaveas being theflrs4inaseriesof relationshipswhichhaverepeatedon intoY,ouradult life?
MATT:Exactly.An ongoingcycle.
BRAYSHAW:One thingthatinterestsme is the wayyou've ·changedthingsfrom when they first appearedin the single-pagestrip, "MyBest FriendDave." Forinstance, Dave's appearancelooks a lot different./11the Kitchen Sink collec1io11,Davelooks wayuglier.
MATT: I couldn'tdrawas well.[laughs]He'sugly,allright. But so am I. II soundsstupid,but I wasn't awarethat 10 makea cartoonlook morelikea childyou've got 10 give it a muchlargerforehead.In the Kit.ChenSinkcollection Dave lookslikea Neanderthal.
BRAYSHAW:Whatstrikesme as .interestingabout "Fair Weather"is thatthe two issuesthathavecomeout sofar havebeenmuchmore"cartoony,"that is, thejigureshave beensimplified,and the settingshave not beendrawnas realisticallyas in the earlierworki11Snarfor Drawnand Quarterly.
MATT:Really?I findthesettingsmorerealistic.Especially likein anestablishingshotbecauseI'm usingphotographs partof the timeforbuildingsandhouses.To methatgives it a morerealisticfeel becauseI haven't usedany photo referencepriorto this.But thecharactersand a greatdeal of the artworkis simplifiedbecauseI've got my eye on
GOD, IF I KNEW VOU WERE SUCH A PVSSY, I NEVER WOULD'VE STARTED HANGIN' AROUND VOU • .-....----....._
colorihgit someday.
BRAYSHAW:Thiswouldbe somethingyou wouldliketo see collectedby, say, Drawnand Quarterly?
MATT:Sure,definitely.NotthatI'd liketo see it; myeye is completelyon the collection.It always has been. Even fromthe veryfirstKitchenSinkpage.Iwasthinkingof that collection."FairWeather"is definitelygoingto be a third collectionsomeday.
BRAYSHAW:Canyou tellmesomethingabouireasonsas to whyyouchosefor movingawayfrom thiilgsthathappened immediately10you, 10 dealingwith eventsthathad hap· penedfurtherbackin thepast? Whatwasyour interestin thatshift of perspective?
MATT: It wastime10 thinkof a newcollection.I definitely didn't want10 re-treadthesamegroundfromissues#l-J/6. I wasveryworriedaboutrepeatingmyself.The first thing I wanted10 get awayfromwas the wholesexualelement. So the childhoodstoryappealed10 me becausethere was no sexualityin it. The voyeuristiclookingat sunbathers doesn't quite qualify 10 me. This wasbeforeI gota holdof pornogra- ~.,,,
phy- I wasn't quite as lustful. [laughs]I wanted10 do a storythat wouldallowme theopportunityto
try todevelopasastoryteller.Maybe use more silentpanelsand let the storybreathemore.And do some- , thing that was more about two peopleas opposed10 one. I don't knowif ii feelsthat way,if it feels likeit's aboutthesetwo friends,or if it feelslikeit's all aboutme. But in my mind the focus is on this friendship.
IIPSH8W
BRAYSHAW: / think there's 11111ch moreinterplaybetweenDaveandyou thantherewas,say, betweenyouand Trish.Thatis, Davecomesacrossto me as an equal,who'scriticizingyouand talkingbackto you and analyzingyour reasonsfor doing things,and I think
•
•
&uT
• • • J • 1 C ,.," .,
"NotthatI'dliketo seeit; myeyeis completelyonthe collection. It alwayshas been.Evenfromthe veryfirstKitchenSink page, I wasthinking of thatcollection. 'FairWeather' is definitelygoingtobe athirdcollection someday."
TH£COMJCSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW 1/81 JANUARY 1996
ABOVE:Coverto
49
TOP: Same Dave, dijferenr style:from "Fair Weather."
~#8.
ABOVE:
there'sa reallygoodsenseof interplaybetweenthehvoof you. Thatcomesthroughvery well.
MATT:I'm just tryingto keep the two characterstogether throughoutthe wholestory.I also want to df<1woutdoor scenes-because the firstsix issuespracticallytakeplace in my room.It felt very claustrophobic.
BRAYSHAW:There'salsoa se11sethati11thefirstfew issues, you spent a lot of tirne usi11gcuts betwee11sce11es.to juxtaposeoneperson's dialoguewith the resultsof their actions:"!'111 goingto go a11ddo this."
MATT:Yeah,I wantedto getawayfromthatlittleboxin the cornerthatwouldsay,''Threehourslater... " or,"Thenext day " It seemsintrusive.I don't think I've used it yet. Like,"Laterthat night. " isnotnecessaryifyoudo a night shot,youknow?So yeah,I havebeentryingto avoidthose.
BRAYSHAW:FairWeatherseemstoflow better,too.Thatis,
MATT:Thanks.I've been very happywith it.
BRAYSHAW:Youalso alludedto that senseoffreedom:the panels are bigger,you've 11wvedtowardsdoing much largersceneswithmuchmoredetailin them.Canyou talk about your interestin that? Is that more of 011artistic challenge?
MATT:Yeah,it's just to makeit moreenjoyablefor myself, to be less restricted.Even in the first six issuesI limited myselfio squarepanels.And now, if I wantto do a long panel,I can do thatand thencut it anywherein that tier.It just makesit morefun.andsometimesit's necessary,so it feelsright.Ijust wishI wasfasterwiththe art![laughs]I'm so fuckingslow. •
BRAYSHAW:One of the thingsI think will surprisepeople whomight11othaveseentheKitchenSinkco/lectionis,I'm thinki11g of someof the "Playtime"pieces,whereyou very co11sciouslyexperimentedwithpage desig11and panels, with differentpa11elshapes and differentpacing tech11iques.That'ssomethi11gI'm reallypleasedtosee coming back i1110the work.
MATT:Where'sit comingback?I don't see it.
BRAYSHAW:In geuingawayfrom thesmallsquare.
MATT: I see whatyou mean.
BRAYSHAW:Forpeoplewhohaven'tsee11thatearlierwork, they may think that this is allyou de.
MATT:There was that one large "Playtime."Yeah, I rememberI wantedthat10 sit nextto the 96-panelstrip.That was reallywhyI did that -10 makeit lookworsethan it was.
BRAYSHAW:Tell 111e a bit about the referencethat you're doingfor Fair Weather.Earlieryou were talkingabout 11si11gphotographicreference,and in the tellersyou've also alludedthatyou've bee11talkingto your momabout thingsthat went011in childhood.
MATT:Right.I took somephotosof the suburbsjust to try and get a feel.I don't reallyuse themtoo often.I've used them for David's house,the 7-11,my house,not a whole lot more. And the school,that was an importantone I wantedto havephotosof. But yeah.I've askedmy mom andDavid,andmysisterMonica,lotsof things.I thinkmy sister has been the most helpful.She's almosttwo years older than me so we grew up very close together.The interestingthingis that I am in touch withDavid.
BRAYSHAW:Theconclusionto thestrip in theKitche11Sink collectionseemedto i11timatethat you had driftedapart, and thatyou weren'tin contact.
MATT:Yeah,but we got backintocontacta fewyearsago. My momis still in the suburbsand so is he,and she got a clericaljob for a milk company,and it turnedout that Davidis a milkmannow.So they wouldsee each other everymorningin the office.She told him aboutthe older issuesof the comicand he wantedto see that stuffso we got in touchsoon after that.
BRAYSHAW:Has he see11thefirst couple of parts of Fair Weather?
there'sa lotlesscuttingbehvee11sce11es.It's morelike011e great,big, /011gscene,a11dthereare i11terestingrhythms even in somethingsimplelike the coupleof pages with Dave just riding his bike along. There's a really 11ice rhythmand progressio11 to tlwsesce11es.
MATT:Yeah, he has. My mom told me he said it looks nothinglike him.He doesn't feel like it's reallyhim.It's moreprobablya questionoflikeness;I neverreallygo for a likenesswithmy cartooningbecauseit's just reallynot importantto me, and it's difficulton top of it. [laughs]
BRAYSHAW: I think that's somethingthat caughta lot of peopleby surprise.Like whenthe coupleyou meet in the Beguilingturn out to look nothing like their cartoon likenesses.
"Therewasthat onelarge'Playtime.' Yeah, I remember I wantedthattosit nexttothe 96-panelstrip. Thatwasreallywhy I didthat.-tomake it lookworsethan it was."
50
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best (worst?):
the 96-1>011elHell lo Pay.·•
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Tl/£CO.IIICSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW 111/J JANU,\RY /'J'/6'
MATT: In thatinstanceI wastryingto get awaywithsomething,but ii wasso transparent.I feel like it would be like that withanychangeI wouldmake.It'slargely a part of my fearof me movingtowards fictionbecauseI worrythat it wouldbe 100 obvious.The wholequestionof "fiction"hasalwaysbeentroublesometo me becauseas a writer,you'realwaysdrawingon yourownexperiences,so to try to camouflageorchangethings,itjust seems likemoretroublethanit's worth.It's like tellinga lie,anditjust multiplies. I worry thatif I did somefictionalthingit would just snowballintothisthingI didn't know where it was goingand I didn't have a grip on, and thingsjust get inconsistent becausethey're notfactual.It's verycomplicated. •
BRAYSHAW:8111in a sense;you'renotjust doingstraightawobiographicalreportage. There is quite a bit of rewriting materialand reorganizingmaterialfor dramaticeffect.Youseemto havea good grasp of how to make somethingmore dramaticallyrelevant,or how to better structuresomethingto appear in semifictionalfon11.
MATT: I don't knowif"filmn1aker"is the besttenn, butl am kindof approachingit withthat sensibility.I am lookingback with a voyeuristiceye on my own life, and tryinglo presentit dramatically.
BRAYSHAW: Is therea sensein whichthat lookingback,OU!Side of whateverentertai111nentvalueit servesfor an andience, in whichproducingthe work is usefulto you because when it's edited down or distilledor condensed.it allowsyou tosee thingsthatyoumightnot haveseenin the acrnallivingof your life?
MATT:Sure,definitely.It's a lot of fun to just think about things: Things you've avoidedor... You'vereallygot to come to yourconclusions.Thisis kindofironic, but [laughs)I don't wantto lookstupid.I don't wantto looklikeI don't knowwhat I'm doing.
BRAYSHAW:Evenin placeswhereit looks likeyou're completelylost, like youjust don't have a clue what to do, at least there is that constantsense of a kind of questioningthecircumstancesyou'rein. Youneverjust lie there passively.That's one of the things that's really appealingaboutyou as a character- thisconstantrage againstcircumstances.
MATT: I guess.
BRAYSHAW:Youdon't come acrossas passive:
MATT: In the storyline,you mean?
BRAYSHAW:Yeah.Tome youseemtocqmeacrossas pretty consistentlyengagedwith whatever' s going 011.Even if • you' re gellingabsolutelydumpedon, you' re still strugglingand tryingto changethings.
MATT:Yougoua live, I guess.
BIOGRAPHICALSTUFF
BRAYSHAW:Okay,nowsomebiographicalstuff Youwere born in Philadelphiain 1963?
MATT:That's right Lansdale,Pennsylvania,actually.
BRAYSHAW:Whatwasgrowingup in Philadelphialike?
MATT: It wasn'tPhiladelphia,it wasa suburbof Philadelphia,aboutan hour'sdriveaway.It wasverymuchlikeit appearsin the comic.
BRAYSHAW:Middle-classcommutersuburb?
MATT:Yeah.Verywhite,veryCatholic.A lot of Italians, Irish... Actually I wasobliviousto all thenationalities,and
ABOVE:The whimsical. one•panel Playtime.''
THECOMICSJOURNAlJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/BJ JANUARY/996 14 OfM)•fHO( H~~- Z tr ,,c.wth~ WONN( ww.-n oow,t HUI-
51
I still am. [laughs]
BRAYSHAW:Tell me a birabouryour parents.Whardid they do?
MATT: My motherwasa housewife.Shehadherhandsfull raising four children.Even when my sisterand I were grownup,therewasa youngerone,Peter-I'm 31 now, andhe's 17- so she'salwayshadher handsfuU. My father... I'm no! exactlysurewhat he did. [laughs]He seemedto drift fromjob 10job a 101.WhenI wasabout five, I rememberheowneda smallcarpetingstorethathis father had set up. My grandfatherhad run a linoleum companyandhe set my dadup with a shopthatI guess failed, I'm not sure.He worked for H&RBlock for a while andthenfinally landedajob with Amtrakthathe's hadfor the last 12or 15years.
BRAYSHAW:Did theshiftingberwee11jobs meanfinancial i11srability?
MATT: We alwaysseemedto bepretty I'm notsureif we weremiddle-classor upper-middle-class.butall I know is I didn't haveanyspendingmoney. I hadno money,really. There wereno allowancesandthere were no vacations. We wentdown to theJerseybeachesonce.We didn't go out to dinner [laughs]I'm just painting a bad picture now. I don't know.I just didn't havea lot of money.The moneyI gotalwaysseemedlike I hadto earn.Canyoubeat that?[laughs]I hadto mow lawnsor shovelsnowtor it, hence,it wasvery preciousto me.
BRAYSHAW:Did yo11fi11dyourself in co,if[ictwith your pare,11s'religiousor socialvalues?
MATT: No. I wentthroughgrades1-12in a Catholicschool andI didn't evenreally questionit. I preuy muchbought it entirely.It's weird for menow,thinkingbackon it,just how muchtalkingto God I did in my head.Theonly real dragfor mewastheclothes:Dressingup andwearingthat
C'MON,SETH!l'VEI-IAD ENOUGH!!LET'SGETBACK TOOURREALITYNOW!!
• ollN MALE! ftR To TH
"When I wasa kid, somehow I decided Snoopyhada birthday ona certaindateand I wouldcelebrate thiseveryyearand makemymomthrow a littlepartywithcake andicecreamand I'dinvitefriendsand everything. I don't rememberhowlong thatwenton,but thelastyearwedidit I rememberfeeling a littletooold tobedoingthat."
•
TOP: Mall draw.t hi.'i own origin.
0
RIGHT: One of Mau ·s loves: II PeanutsChri.t1ma.<,·11rd.
52
OPPOSITE: The torture of being a yow1x urrist./rom Peepshow /Ill.
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damn tie every day and then having to do it again on Sunday.I wasalwayspissedoff-I couldn'tstandit. But that was my only real inconvenience. I hatedit..
BRAYSHAW:Did you get 011well with otherneighborhood kids?
MATT:Sure, pretty much,I guess.
BRAYSHAW:Youseemedto hove a senseof yourself as being a person betweencrowds, a person who did11 'r reallyfit in lo a11y011eparticular group of people.
MATT:I always had this image of myself as an artist. [laughs] It sounds so pretentious.But as a kid I was drawingaroundthe age of five,and the label"artist"was hungon me by anyonethat knewme.I enjoyedit, I liked feelingspecialand all that shit. [laughs]
BRAYSHAW:IV/tarsort of arr wouldyou hovebeenseeingar thisage? Wasyour arr based011newspapercarroo/lSyou had see11?Had you seencomicsrltar early?
MATT:Yeah, I fell in love with Peanutsat an incredibly youngage. Probablybefore I could even speak,I knew Snoopy'simageand lovedhim.WhenI was a kid,somehowI decidedSnoopyhad a birthdayon a certaindateand I wouIdcelebratethiseveryyearandmakemymomthrow a littlepartywithcakeand icecreamand I'd invitefriends andeverything.I don't rememberhowlongthat wenton, butthe lastyearwedid it I rememberfeelinga littletoo old to be doing that. [laughs] But yeah, Peanutswas an immediatelove.I thinkI was aroundsevenwhenI started cut!ingLi'IAb11eroutof the newspapereveryday because I noticedtherewas a continuity,and I felt thisstuffshould
be collected.It wasbuggingme thatit wasn't beingreadas a continuity.SoI wascuttingthatout everyday andgluing it into books.That was 1971or I 972, becauseI stiIIhave the strips.I did that rightup until it foldedin '75.
But about fittingin .withotherkids: I sort of perceive my childhoodas veryjoyful and enjoyable,rightup until puberty.Thatwas whenlustand attractionto the opposite sex kickedin,and I feltpowerlessandeverythingwentbad fromthere.
BRAYSHAW:Beforepuberty,did you have womenfriends, rhoris, boysand girls playing rogerlter?
MATT:No.Therewas thatmindsetthatyou werea guy and youdidn't likegirls.I don't knowhowcommonthat is, it seemsfairlycommon.But thatwasdefinitelyin my mind: That you weren't supposedto like them.It explainsa lot, unfortunately.[laughs]WhenI was a child,the onlygirls I knewweremy sister's friends-andit was verymuchlike
I CAMEOVERTo SEE MY GRANDCHILDREN.'ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT ? NNGGH.I
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THERE'S MY LITTLE ARTIST! COM£DOWN HEREAIID SAV HI To vouR NANA ! //RNA: W·WHAT'Rl YOU DOING HERE?
"Ialwayshadthis imageofmyself as anartist.[laughs] Itsounds so pretentious.Butas a kid I wasdrawing aroundtheageoffive, andthelabel'artist' washungonme byanyonethatknew me. I enjoyed it, I likedfeelingspecial andallthatshit." [laughs]
' THECO/.IICS/01/RNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW ll8J JANI/ARY 111116 53
enemycamps.
BRAYSHAW:Your sister and her friends seem to have developedverydifferentinterestsfrom yours.
MATT:My sisterandher friends?I don't thinkshe hasany friendsin my comics.
BRAYSHAW:Nobut,i11termsof howyoudepicther,it seems to me thatpeoplewho wouldbefriends of the character, wouldnot11ecessarilyunderstandyour lovefor Peanuts
MATT:Yeah The differencesbetweenmalesandfemales stayconsistent.I mean,a lotof theclichesstayconsistent. Forinstance,analretentivenessseemspredominantlymale: collectingthings and hoardingthem, and all that shit. (laughs]Guysaremuchmorelikethat.I don't knowwhy, but that's beenmy experience.
BRAYSHAW:Wasthatalwaysa part of yourself?A ki,uiof acquisitiveness?Theneed to have things?
MATT:Yeah.
BRAYSHAW:Did it matterwhatthosethingswere?
MATT:Sure. Completely.It's the collectingmentality.I was collectingBig Daddy Roth stickers,called "Odd Rods,"big-teethedmonstersdrivinghotrods.I thinkthose were the first things I startedcollectingas a kid.'Even today, that collection'smy most prizedpossession.And Peanuts books. It just seemed like I had all of these separatecollectionsgoingand it wasalwaysappealingto get moreof themgoingand watchthemgrow.
BRAYSHAW:Weretheseintereststhatyoucouldsharewith otherkidsyourow11age?Orwerethesemoreor lessthings you pursued011your ow11?
MATT: I prettymuchpursuedthemon myown.Anyoneelse that wascollectingcomics,I just figuredtheydidn't have thesa!llesensibilities,theyweren'tdoingit right.[laughs) They didn't have the right tastes.Somebooksjust don't belongwithotherbooksin my mind.I thoughtofArchies and Fu1111yAnimal books and Little Lulu as more like disposablecomics, they weren't worth collecting.The ones to save were the superherostuff, the DCs and the Marvels.
BRAYSKAW:Why was that? Was it just becauseDCs and Marvelshada strongercontinuity?
WAtr'LL YOU SEE HOW BIG MV COMIC COLLECTIONIS NOW!
I ·ve GOT ALMOST A THOUSAND :
MATT:Theyjust appealedto me morebecauseI was male. The powerfantasiesand shit. I've got to stop sayingthe word,"shit"!
BRAYSHAW:Youcansay thosewords-this is theJournal. MATT:[laughs)Theyjust appealedio me.The other stuff that also appealedto me too was, all the stuff I just mentioned,and De1111isthe Me11ace,Little lulu, Archie, Do11aldDuck,UncleScrooge... All thatstuff appealedto me,but it was moreor lessthrowninto my sister'scloset and lefithere.I didn't reallycare aboutpreservingthem; I wasn't preciouswith themat all, the way I was withmy own DCand Marvelbooks.
BRAYSHAW:Now,part of being "precious,"hadyoufigured0111by thispoint thatthesethi11gsmightconceivably be worthmoneyoneday?Orthatsomeof themwereworth moneyalready?
MATT:Sure,I knew that.But my eye wasn't on makinga profit.I figuredI wastakingthesethingsto thegraveand I wanted to preservethem. [laughs]It's funny talking abou1it I was very youngand I hadn't even heardabout comicbook bags and I was, probablylike a lot of kids, usingsaranwrapandwrappingthemup andtapingthem. It's crazy!God knowswhy.
BRAYSHAW:Didyou perceivethe kind of groresq11emale powerfantasiesthatwerepretrymuchrampa11t at DCand Marvelthen,did youperceivethemas somehowdiffere11t from the restof the sttiff thatwasgoing011?
MATT:Sure. It was less canoonyto me. I thoughtof the artworkas more realistic,and hence,superior.I was an idiot!
BRAYSHAW: / wasthinkingmoreaboutthesubjectmatterbeing opposedto everythi11gthat was goi11g011i11the suburbs.
MATT: II seemedserious;it wasn't playedfor laughsthe wayeverythingelsewas.Andthestylecontributedto that. The style wasn'tcartoonyand 1hecontentwasn't humorous. So that's all it was.
BRAYSHAW:Yousaid previouslythatyou ide11tifiedyourself as beingan artist,or wa11ti11g to be an artist.
MATT:Yeah,I thoughtof myselfas an artist.My mother
PLUS, NOW 1',-,. GONNA HAVE To START A WHOLE NEW SECTION JUST FOR DAMAGEDCOPIES .' -
54
"It'sfunnytalking aboutIt.I wasvery youngand I hadn't evenheardabout comicbookbagsand I was,probablyl.ike a.lotofkids,using saranwrapand wrappingthemup andtapingthem. It'scrazy! Godknowswhy... It waslesscartoony tome. I thought of the[DCandMarvel] artworkasmore realistic,andhence, superior. I wasan idiot!"
"
wow.'
11/ECOM/CSJOUR.VAlJOE MATT INTERVIEW ll8J JMIUARY/'JU
GRAPHIC STORY MONTHLY
JoaMatt..r..~~~--" OHHIJw" DenoisPimple &T.llotl y
went to an schooland she drew andshe encouragedit in me. r should have said that earlier! She went to the PhiladelphiaCollegeof Art,whereI endedup graduating from. But she dropped.ou~after her first year to raise a family.Butourhousewas fullof heroil paintingsall over the walls.I enjoyeddrawingso much,I just decidedat a\ veryyoungagethat I wasan artistandI wasgoingto stick withthis foreverbecauseit seemedlikea goodjob. Itjust seemeda great idea to do art, when1 got older.
BRAYSHAW:Okay,so thequestionI'm tryi11gtoask is, once you becameinterestedin readingprimarilyMarveland DCs11perherocomics,did you make the connectionthat peopleweregellif!g paid to writeand drawthesethings? Didyou havean interestin producingthat kindof work?
Evenincollege it leanedmoretowards grotesquecaricature kind,ofbasedonphotoslikethatfatguy ' Inthesteambath cover I didforGraphic StoryMonthly#7, a lotofmystuff lookedlikethat. I wouldtakephotos andthendistortthem
••andthenpaintthem. I justhad a veryhard timewitha_natqmy andallthatstuff; • itjustseemedway beyondme."
MATT: No, not at all. I couldn'tevendrawthatstuff, I didn't even try to draw superherostuff, it was totallybeyondmyabilities.My drawing has always been cartoony.Even in college it leanedmore towardsgrotesquecaricaturekind of basedon photos- likethat fat guyinthesteambathcoverI didforGraphicStoryMonthly #7, a lot of my stuff lookedlikethat. I wouldtake photos andthendistortthemandthenpaintthem.I just hada very hard time with anatomyand all that stuff,it just seemed waybeyondme.I neverthoughtforan instantthatI could do it.
OPPOSITE: Portraitofrhe arti.,ras a young comic book collector.
ABOVE:A different,,tyle, fr11mGraphic Story Monthly and Drawn and Quarterly,
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FAlltAC.RAPRICSBOOKS
TH£COMICSJOUR//ALJOE MATT INTERVIEW ll8J JANUARY1996
"Mydrawinghas alwaysbeencartoony.
55
BRAYSHAW:Goingthroughhighschool,you werekeeping a sketchbook.
MATT:Was I?! [laughs]
BRAYSHAW:According to theKitchenSinkstrips,youwere!
MATT:Okay.[laughs)It's painfulto admitit now,but my sketchbooksconsistedalmostentirelyof copiedartwork; I wouldcopy everybody,Frazettato politicalCartoons, anything,superheroes I felt completelysecurein my copyingskills.I hardlyeverdidanythingoriginal.I would copy the coversto Warren's issues of The Spirit.They wouldlookgreat wiih the big logosand everything,and thenI would.tryto do myownentirelyoutof myhead,and I was so embarrassed,and I hid thesethings!Everything was sort of stiff, and the creasesin the clothingweren't anywherenearright... It wasjust a mess.Everytime!tried somethinglike that it failed.
BRAYSHAW:By the timeyou werein highschool,wereyou co11ti11ui11g to workas Q/1 artist or workillgas a professio11alartist- wasthatprettymucha give11for whatyou wa111ed to do as a career?
MATT:Yeah.That wastheonlything.I neverthoughtforan instantof anythingelse.
BRAYSHAW:Wereyour pare11tssupportiveof that career choice?
MATT:Yes,entirely.Especiallymy mother,sinceshe was an artistherself.
BRAYSHAW:Once you graduatedfrom high school,you
e11rolledilltothe PhiladelphiaCollegeof Art. Thatwasa four-yearprogram?
MATT:Right. My major was illustration.Through my whole college training,I thought I was going to be a magazineillustratorbecausetheydiscouragedcomicsand said they didn't pay. At.thatpointI reallyhad myeye on makinga lotof money.WehadpeoplelikeRalphSteadman and Brad Hollandcome and give us talks, and I just thoughtthat I wanted to be making the big bucks for a singleimage;a movieposterthat wouldmake$100,000 likeforApocalypseNow The IllustrationAnnualswere pusheddownourthroats,andwejust wantedto be in there. . That was the mentalityin college.
BRAYSHAW:\Vereyouconti11ui11g to do eithercomicswork orcopyi11gworkonyourownseparatefrom whatyou were doing in college?
MATT:No,I hadmyhandsfullwithhomework. I hadnever done anycomicworkever on my own,untilthe veryfirst KitchenSink page. Basically,up until college,I copied everything I couldget myhandson. MyonIy real skiUwas drawingfromlife.I coulddraw fromlifeandfromphotographs'becausethat was likecopyingto me. All through collegeI wasdependentonphotographsforeverything.So I wouldcartoonthe photographsquite a bit, and thatwas my illustrationstyle I was developing.
BRAYSHAW:Whatledyou to do yourfirst comicsworkfor KitchenSink?
"Upuntilcollege, I copiedeverything I couldgetmyhands on.Myonlyrealskill wasdrawingfromlite. I coulddrawfromlife andfromphotographs because-thatwaslike copyingtome.All throughcollege I was dependentonphotographsforeverything.
SoI wouldcartoon thephotographs quite a bit,andthatwas myillustrationstyle I wasdeveloping."
Tlf£COM/CSJ0URNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW l/8J JANUARY /'Hf,
HEY! THIS REAi.LYHIOES THE' DIRT!
MATT:A completefailurein an illustrationcareer.I tried hittinga lot of magazinesin NewYorkCityonce,!got my portfolio done. I was very set on starting at the top. [laughs]I hada labor-intensivestyleandI thoughta lotof it, and I didn't want to be doing·anillustr~tionfor under $500.Itjust wasn'thappening.I wouldgo to theseplaces and sho,v them my portfolioand just stand'by silently figuringthe workshouldsell itself and it neverdid. I couldn't figureout why nobodywas callingme back,but nobody called back. ConsequentlyI just rotted at my mom's housewatchingtelevisioneveryday.
BRAYSHAW: Did anybodyfrom any of these commercial placesthat you showedthe work,or any teachersin art' schoolprovideeitherusefulcriticism10you, suggestthat maybecommercialillus1ratio11wasn'1 going-tobe 'it,but thatyour talentmightlie in somedifferentdirectioh?
MATT:No, they encouragedthe illustrationcareer.Tbey totallydiscouragedcomics.This wouldbe.theearly,•~Os. Comicshopswere around,but...
BRAYSHAW:Black-and-whiteswere11't,.goingro boo,;nfor anotheryear or two.
MATT:Yeah,so it wasn't reallyan option.·1rememberin collegeI saw a few issuesof RAW; #4 or #5 is the one I remember.But thatjust seemedso avantgarde;it didn't even seem like comics to me, it seemed like weird, pretentiousartists.[laughs]
BRAYSHAW:Hadyou seen Crumb'swork,or an anthology like Weirdo?
MATT:No, I hadn't. I saw Crumb'sworkfor the first time onceI gotoutof college.I guessI was22 or so. Therewas somethingaboutthe style that seemedlike it was always familiarto me.It seemedlikeI hadbeenseeingit around since I was a kid. The whole stylejust gave me a real nostalgiccharge·thatI've alwaysbeenattractedto. Evenas a child,thingslikethereallyoldlitr/eRascalsonTVor old movies,anythingthat spoke of an older world always grabbedme. Andc;rumb'sstuffjust felt likepart of some oldworld,i~didn'tfeelcontemppraryat all. SoI pickedup the early ZAps,and soon becametotalJyobsessedwith Crumb.Even as a child I was alwaysjumping fromone comicartistto another.I was a big NealAdamsfan,then BerniWrightson,thenJohnByrne... It wasn'tuntil much laterthatI wisedup andgrabbedall the KirbyI couldfind.
BRAYSHAW:Whatledyou to do yourfirst comicswork?
MATT:The illustrationcareertotallyfizzledout.This was rightaftercollege~ndI wasIivingwithmymomfor about ninemonths.I was losingmy mind,I hadno friends.I was just livingin that housein the suburbseveryday. I would venturedowntownto visitMatt Wagner,my friendfrom college, and he was doing Mage and just starting up Grendel.I wouldvisithim andhe wouldgivemeworkjust doing anything,cuttingfrisket,I startedcoloringfigures
OPPOSITE:AnQ/her painting, this rime a back coverfor Drown& Quarterly Ill.
ABOVE:Matt's early art .,clwal days. as portrayed' in Peepshow: The Cartoon Diary of Joe Matl.
NOW I'LL REALtY• LOOK LIKE AN ARTIST,' .
THECOMICSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW l/8J JANUARY/996 w'IIAT CAN I SAY ? I WAS YOUNG AHO FOOLISH: vov TIST WHY.YES MA'AM·· I AM 1 •
"I remember incollege
I saw a fewissues of Raw,#4or#5isthe one I remember. Butthatjustseem_ed soavantgarde; it didn'tevenseemlike comics tome,it seemedlikeweird, pretentiousartists. 11
57
right away.It wasgreat,I just wanted 10 bedowntownagain.I would sleep on his floor, I wasjust so happyto be out of my mom's house.I wasdeterminedto movebackinto thecity, but I didn't wantto getajob. [laughs)But I gotajob workingatFatJack'sComic Crypt,unloadinga truckatthreein the morning.That was just one night a week,andthatpaidthe$200a month rentthatI hadonceI got anapartment with Kevin,my old roommate.Soany moneyI madecoloring for Man was moneyfor food.As I washangingout with Matt, he waskeepinga sketchbook He's alwaysbeena very fast workerand a hard worker andI stancd keepinga sketchbookas well. This coincidedwith the time I wasreally discoveringCrumb.
Pekar,and Spiegelman'swork. I'd seeCrumb'ssketchbooksas well, so I startedkeepingone myselfanddoing little strips about my life andjust incidentsthat would happenon a daily basis,like a diary. EveryoneI knew. Mall andall his friends.got a big kick out of lookingat my sketchbook.Soafter I felt confidentenoughI decidedto stan my first realpagethatsummerof '87. LikeMan,Ijust wantedto havemy own book.Hewasmakingreallygood
money,andhe was working ar home,and he owned his own copyright, and I just wantedto be like that So I figured I'd start this pageand stick with it until I had enoughdonefor a book.
BRAYSHAW:And Mall wassupponiveof thatwork?
MATT:Oh yeah.
BRAYSHAW:Didyou show the workto Comico?
MATT:Yeah,that was the only publisherI was in touch with, andI wasin closecommunicationwith them.Diana [Schutz] liked the stuff, and there was probably some mention of them publishing it, but in my mind I did perceivethem as a cenain type of publisherthat really shouldn't be interestedin me.
BRAYSHAW:But KitchenSink was?
MATT:Yeah,KitchenSink seemedlike the oneI wantedto mostbewith. !sent themthe first20 pageswhentheywere done,xeroxes.And theyexpressedinterestright away.So I was very happy.
BRAYSHAW:Thoseappearedin Snarf?
MATT:Yeah,five at a time. I guessthat was in 1988.
BRAYSHAW:Then subsequemlyDrawn & Quarterly ran someas well?
MATT:Yeah,Chris Oliveros had wrinen to me through KitchenSink, andcoincidentallywe wereboth living in Montreal,soJjust \ventandknoc)cedon hisdooronceI got his letter and we struck up a friendshipimmediately.I
"I'dseeCrumb's sketchbooksaswell, soI startedkeeping onemyselfand doinglittlestrips aboutmylifeandjust in'cidentsthatwould happenona daily basis,likea diary."
OPPOSITE:
58 LISTEN,KID.AltTSATRICKY81/S/NESSM
TOP: Mnlf does Crumb. ABOVE,: Cover to the KitcherJ Sink collec1io11.
Mau ':r life as ii colorist mt displt,y.
• LEMMETELLYA.. V'NEEDALLTHEHEL, YCMI6ET:: EVERYONETHRT5AN'IOIJE HASTHEIR INFLUENC£~ .. GODKNOWS I'VE HADMINE...
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So YOOt<EEPAT IT,KIO.. • Y'OOtN'FINE:t Wfu,_,YO(J KNOWliOW IT
,, IS.. HEH..HEH..
TAKEA Loot{ATMY Mlt.NATURALNEXTTo PROF.l,JoT/lSl'J<>UJ.El=ROl"f£,(. SE611R'sf'oPf.'fE m,.P F!WMlNf £ARLYlt30s .'!SE£.?, 1
THECOMICSJOURNAI.JOE MATT INTERVIEW 11/U JANUARY199>1
startedputtingmorepagesinto his magazineas well.But my eye wasalwayson the collection.
BRAYSHAW:You said that you hadn't looked over rhe marerialrecently,butdoyou haveanythoughtsabout1he Ki1che11Sink collectio11, as a unit?
MATT: [laughs]Yeah,I see it as prettyjuvenile.It's embarrassingin a lotof ways.but not completely,becauseI was doingmybestat thetime.ButI neverlookthroughit. Itjust doesn't appealto me.
BRAYSHAW:Oneof the rhi11gsthatdid interestme aboutit thoughis the wayyou don't ever sel/le 011storiesabout yourlifeas it is currentlyinprogress;they'reinterspersed with memoriesof growingup or withfantasies or play strips.There'sa realsenseof varietyto thematerial.It's explodingall over rheplace.
MATT: I saw this collectionas a base that wouldsupport furthercollectionsthat wouldexpoundon some of the sametopicsor stories.like I'm doingwith my childhood story.ButI wasunderthecompletedelusionthatI wasfast. [laughs)I wasthinkingI couldget out a collectiona year or something.God knowswhatI was thinking.But I did wantto coveras muchgroundas quicklyas possible,just in case that was maybethe only book I wouldever do. Maybe I'd die, who knows?I wanted to get as much coveredas quicklyas possible. FO&.&OW
..JUSTREIIIEMIEf.
1'HIWkS
BRAVSHAW:Somewherein there, Mau gave you work coloringthe infamousBatma11/Gre11delbook. Wasthere ' ! . wasa realclear senseof commercialworktakingaway / time rhatcouldhavebeenusedto do your own work?
1MATT:Sure, but I lookedat it as the lastbigkilling.Matthad ~"'. ·." quotedme a figureand it felt like winninga lottery,so I ·umpedat it, and figuredr coulddo it in two months,little realizingit wouldtakethreeyearsto get paidfor it. So for thosethreeyearsI waskindof adamant,eventhoughI was broke,it waslike,"Thatwasmy lastjob, I toldmyselfthat I wasn't goingto do any more!"AndI didn't, but for those • threeyearsI had an annualincomeof under$1,000each year.I waslivingoffof the 50bucksa pagemy stripswere
LOOI(, I OOliT CAREIF
CMON, JOE-· FEEL THE 8A8V ICICK!
WO1.ooKAT THESi6EMSFROf'fTHE l'ISo's!! t1.Y MA~ZWESlfAOAMl>FoUNDEFFECTON E !! HAR\lfYt<URTZMIIN..w1uEL.DfR..1,,J<X.VEl{ToN ...
EV !'1A1T: IS 8ATMAN's E OR PJIIIT oF' I/IS CAPE? MIIN, I TELL'y4 ... 8AR.8 SPENDS TI/E MONEV FASTEP. T///11,J I CAN MAKE 1r
"Matthadquoted meafigureand it feltlikewinning a lottery,soI jumped at it,andfigured
KIO• WHlfT'EV£R
IN5P/1(£SYOU•
•I!!
,, IN" 4
•u 'R'
I could[colorGrendel] intwomonths, littlerealizing it would takethreeyearsto getpaidforit."
YOV ARE 8ANICAIIPT! AS MY EK· l'USLISHE/1, You 8ASTARPS01,,1£ME MONEY AIJO I'VE GOT PEOPLE To PAV!! EW! NO THANl(S! I'LL flASS: _rt DANA NA NA NA NA NA • DA NII NII NA NA NA N,4 • • BATMAN,'~ .I'M NEVEi( 6ETrlN6 PAIP FOIi THIS Jo8 ! SOP.RY,TRISH, Bur :r ,JVST CAN'T R.ESIST WATCI/IN6 THIS PLAVBOVCHIIHNEL! 8EStOES, Tl(E P.ECEPT/01,,s So SCRAMIU,EO, I CAN BAR.ELY SEE WI/AT'S HAPPEIJIN6 f I 11.V • I'D 8ETrER, 6ET To BED ANO !=IN! SH THESE PAGES TOMORRow! Tll£COMIC$JOURNAlJOE MATT INTERVIEW 1/83 JAJIUAIIYl!l9<i 59
LET'S SEE NOW•- WHAT CAN I USE? MAYBE AN OLD PORNFILM ? NAH, I'M TIREDOF USING THOSE SAME 01.0 SCENES --·MAYSE THAT GIRL I SAW IN THE LIBRARYVESTERDAV- • /VAH, TOO MILK~ED. J!AHH-· I HAVE IT
,r CO~ES! I-I-I~ G•GONNA··
getting in S11arf and Draw11& Quarterly.ln a lot of ways,I think this contributedto the break up of TrishandI because I wassodamnpennyconscious.I wasunbearable to be around.I wouldn't spend a dime for anything- I didn't haveit, and I wouldn'tworkfor it.
BRAYSl!AW:Do you feel that that wasa situation you couldhavecha11ged had you taken commercialwork?Thatyouhadmadea veryconsciouschoicenot to?
MATT:Yeah,I just fearedheadingdown a road I would neverget off of. I turneddownan animationjob on the Batmancartoonseries,and I turneddowncoloringjobs thatDianaSchutzwasofferingme.Everythingtakesmeso damnlong!I thinkI colored14issuesof Gre11delpriorto Batma11/Gre11del, and it felt like I was spendinga lot of
money... You justify your spendingas you make the moneyand it just becomesa viciouscycle and I really fearedbeingtrappedin it.
BRAYSNAW:Do youfeel that with the sacrificesyou made in ten,,sof not takingwell-payingwork, thedifficultiesof beingpoor,and the resultingstrain that thatput 011your lifea11don your relationships,that thatdecisionwasstill a good one?Havingthatfreedom to do your own work? Wasdisciplinedeveloped?
MATT:Yeah,disciplinewas developed,and I still have discipline.But [sigh]I'm just so lazy. How's that for a contradiction?[Laughter].As it is now,I haven'tworked in abouta month,as soonasl finishedissue#8.ButI enjoy free timeso much,you know?It's worthit to me to not havethe moneythat wouldcomefromhavingdoneanythingelse.
BRAYSHAW:Whatdo you do in yourfree time?
MATT:!guessit's inthecomics.[laughter]Alright.masturbation!Top of the chart!Masturbationis rightup there. Readingcomics,biking, shootingpool, playingcards. hittingbookstores I spenda lot of time aloneand I can just lay around my roomjust thinking for hours, you know?
BRAYSHAW:Now when you say "thinking," is that day-
u ()
"Alright, masturbation! Topofthechart! Masturbation isrightupthere. Readingcomics, biking,shootingpool, playingcards,hitting bookstores ... I spend a lotoftime aloneand I canjust layaroundmyroom justthinkingfor hours,youknow?"
ABOVE: Joe Mau with .,ome spare time on his hands.
H·H·HERE
60
THECOl>IICSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW ll8J JAJ/U~RY/99(,
dreaming?
MATT:Yeah,it's daydreaming.
BRAYSHAW: In a se11se, a lot of the prepatoryworkfor a book might not 11ecessprilyinvolvethe physicalact of pe11cilling,inking,and le11eri11g.But ratherstructuring somethingin yourmi11d.
MATT:Yeah, I'm constantlyformingscenesin my mind, and keepingthemvery separateand wonderinghow I'm goingto arrangethesescenes.I'm alwaysthinkingabout the information I wantto conveyin the currentstoryline. It's alwaysa challengeto workall that informationintoa scenethat flowsnaturalistically.
BRAYSHAW: /,1 termsof wantingto conveyseveraldiffrent thingsifl the samescene? • _
MATT:Exactly.I c-0uldpull out.anypaneland explainhowdeliberateit was.Just the things two people.might be saying to each other communicatesso muchabouttheircharacter and tells you so much about them, much morethan the surfacelevel.Bui mostlyI'm just daydreamingaboutsomegirl or otherI l'Ughthave a crush-0n.
.
OUTRAGEOUSAESTHETICS
BRAYSHAW:Tellme whatit's bee11like working with ChrisOliverosat Draw11& Quarterlyo11theregularseries.Doeshe havea11y editorialinputinto thefinishedbooks?
MATT:No, none at a11.·He's very much a dream publisher:Just tum the book in, he printsit up beautifully,andthat's it. There's no editorializing.Even on lateness- he's too nice of a guy, he's reallynot cut out for p,ubJ.ishing.He doesn't even berate you if you're late.
BRAYSHAW: Tell me about startingthe 11ew seriesfor Drawnand Quarterly.D/d it feel like afresh start,or a chanceto do thingsdifferently?
MATT:Yeah.of course.The chanceto drawlarger... Itjust seemedlikea reallybig opportunity. I reallyfelt likeI'd be visiblefor the first time,whereJ.was hidingin those anthologiespriorlo that. I wantedto makea big splash. The first issuewas verycontrivedin that sensebecauseI figuredthis was the most outrageousstory I could have told-a crushon my girlfriend'sfriend,andgivinghera blackeye... Just basicallyspillingeverything l couldand exaggeratingit. I knew this was going to be difficultto showto Trish,but I wasexaggerating.[laughs]But I was • verywaryof howshe'd receiveit. FoolishlyI was hoping she'd stand behind me. like Howard Stern's wife or something,andbelievemewhenI triedto explainthata lot ofthis wasjust for show.
BRAYSHAW:Whatwas her reactionto it?
MATT:Shejust flew off the handle.Some thingsarejust better left unspokenin a relationship,I guess. You're alwaysgoing to be attracted10 other people,but in this case,I don't thinkI ever even talkedto thatgirl.Andthat girlwasoneof a dozenmaytie.I mean,lookingbacknow, irwasreallythesymptomsof a relationshipwindingdown becausel hadn't lookedat anygirlspriorto thisforyears. Andpart of it wasbeingin thecityagainafterbeingout in the suburbsfor a year.
BRAYSHAW: So whe11you say you tookcircumstancesa11d deliberatelyexaggeratethem,how did you assumethat
readerswouldreactto this?
MATT: I assumed,especiallywith a femalereader. that they'd be fairly indignant.I enjoyeda certainseriseof manipulativepowerthat I.wasgetting.[laughs]
BRAYSHAW: In thesenseof instantnotoriety?
MATT:No,just pullingpeople'semotional•strings.Notoriety wasn't the issueal all.
BRAYSHAW:Looki11gback, do you thi11kthat "pul/i11g people'sstri11gs"wasa successfulchoiceto makeat that particularpoint?
MATT:No.Ultimately I feltthatthatmotivationwasimpure in the sensethat it wasn'tconduciveto whatI considered lo be art. It's somethingelse. Like doing somethingfor fameor for money.orsomething.It was impureart. But
I couldn't reallysee ii at the time. I felt it was the best story I had to tell at the time,andI enjoyeddoing it. But ultimatelyI feel likemy firstsix issuesstanctupalittle bit betterthan the KitchenSink collection,bui there was no grand plan or scheme;I didn't envisionissue#6 when I started issue #1. Tha't's no way to put a collectionor a story together._It's not a story. It's a meanderingthing. But this is the problemI tried to correct with the childhoodstory.I wanted,for thefirsttime,10 tryandconceive a large narrativeand proceedto tell it, knowingwhereit was going.
BRAYSHAW:Somethingwitha begi1111i11g, a middle,an end,
a
I DoN·r WANT YOUDOING A STRIP ABOUT THIS ! THIS ISN'T EVEN HOW IT HAPPENED.'!
• •
OHHH ... e>o wE. HAVE To GO THROUGH THIS EVERY TtME ? •
YOUFUCKIN'ASSHOlE!!
TIIECOMIC'SJOURNAI..JOE MATT INTERVIEW 1/&J JANUARY /99(,
"I knewthiswas goingtobedifficult to showtoTrish,but I wasexaggerating. [laughs]But I wasvery waryofhowshe'd receive it. Foolishly I washopingshe'd standbehindme,like HowardStern'swife ' orsomething,and believemewhen I triedtoexplainthat a lotofthiswasjust forshow."
61 I
ABOVE:Mall'., combative rellllion:.hlp with Trish; from the c;oncludlng portion.<<ifthe collection.
OPPOSITT:
OH, /\11/VI SEE ONE?
tharwasveryclearlystructuredwhenyou went in.
MATT:Exactly.Very much like a filmmakerpreparing 10 make a film: a lot of preparationwork,and then just startingit.
BRAYSHAW:Oneofthethi11gs thati11terestedmeaboutthe issuesof" Binswacker"followi11g·thebreakupwasthewayit wasopen-ended.justlife eve11tsoccurringoneaftertheother.Buti11·anothersense irseemedtherewerecerrainsiruationsthatkeptcomingup ill your lifeagainand again,and in depictingthose,you seem to be drawingcomparisonsbetweenseparatecircwnstances,or seeinghowyou.couldreactdifferentlyto similar circumstances.And I thought thar was a very interestingwayof goingabouttellinga story.I don't know to wha1extentthat wasconsciousor not.
MATT:Yeah,wellissues#4, #5, and#6 wereconceivedas a whole.AndagainI wasattempting10utili~eissue#l-#3. When I startedissue #41 was thinkingof.thecollection. Issues#!,#2,and#3are veryindividualisstfesinmymirill: The crush, the break-up,the floundering.In real life, the flounderingandthe attemptto finda girlfriend,therewere about twodozen of them,therewereso many,and il was. alwaysthe samestorywitheverysingleone:I'd ge~them backlo my room,showthema fewView-Masler·reels;and . it was just like Bill Murrayin GroundhogDay )'/herehe, was buildingthat snowmanfor the ,IOOthtime·.withthat womanandtryingto get her into1bedat the end of!1hedl1Y· I wasjust losingmy mind.I reallywantedlo examil),ewhy everythingwas repealingitself, and where was I going wrong?!'d tryto kissa girlandl!d alwaysget theshoulder. I thought,"Theoddsshouldeventuallytum forme-why aren't they?:'So in that sense,thosecharactersare a bitof a composite.
BRAYSHAW:But i11working0111those rec11rringcircumstances,did that leadyou intomoreconsciousi11trospection aboutyourself?.One of the thingsthatFair Weather .. seemsto do is to tryanddiscoverin childhoodthe reasons for someof thebehaviorsinyouradultlife;it seemsrofeed back inw theearlierstories.
MATT:Yeah,whichis reallynol so mu'cha lookbackas il is still present-dayexamination,lhe unendingaltcmptto
B-8E5tDES
lry and understandmyself.ll's probablymoreabout me now than il is about me as a child. But il just has the trappingsof childhood.In manyways,the friendshipwith David is similar to my friendshipwith Seib right now. Conversationscan be verysimilar.
BRAYSHAW:But it seems-rome thatfrom how you depict Sethi;ithecomic,whileyoumightbe resentfulof himin the •short-term/orsomethingthathe tellsyouorfor a criricism . he levelsa, you, i11the long-rerm 1hefriendshipsbothwilh ' him and Chesterare thi11gsthat have been e11ormously val11able to you. •
MATT:Completely.LikeI said,the reasonfortheexaminationof relationships,whetherthey'remaleorfemale,Ifeel a real urgencyor desire forthem to last. ILre.allybugs me -and! don't know.why,maybeit's a resistanceto change or something- but I hale the fact that so many people havecomein andoul ofmy life,and mostof themI'm not even in touch with.Trish forexample,you know?Someone I knewso well,and viceversa,and we're not evenon speakingterms.ll's pretty horrible.
BRAYSHAW:Havingdone thebreak-upstories,do youfeel lessemotio11ally11e11roric?
MATT:No. [laughs]I'm an emotionalcripple!
BRAYSHAW:Do you understandyourselfany betrer?
MATT: I don't know.I just don'l know.I've beensinglefor fouryearsnow,sinceTrish.A big reasonI couldn'tgel into a relationshipis - and this still might be prevalent- is ihatI don't wantto repeatall themistakes,and I don't wanl it 10end up like the last relationshipdid. I wouldsay I've gol real fearof CO(!lmitmenl,and a fear of intimacy,all that stuff.
BRAYSHAW:Becauseyou're not goillgrobe autonomous a11ymore?Like if you're in a rela1ionshipwith another person,there'sgoingto be a certai11amo1111t of give-andtakewhichyoudori't reallyhaverorakeintoco11sidera1io11
\o/l'Ll, I DO THIS COMIC BOOK CALLEO PEEPSHOW. SEE ? ITS ·AUT08to6RIIPHtC:IIL,
DON'T LIKE TO C~LL IT TNI/T.
ALTHOUGH I
NO· HO NO ! ' THEV'RE WAY Too 'PERSONAL .' THEY'RE MOREFOR COMPLETE STRANGERS .' HEH.. HEH..
"
I'vebeensingle forfouryearsnow, sinceTrish.Abig reason I couldn't getintoa relation• shipis- andthis stillmightbe prevalent - isthat I don'twanttorepeat allthemistakes,and I don'twantit to enduplikethelast relationshipdid. I wouldsayI've·got a realfearof commitment, and a fearofintimacy, allthatstuff."
ABOVE: Mall's self-conscious ,uuure regardinghis work.
62
Mall, Che.rrer Brown ,md Seri, by Mal/.
/T's NOT EVEN REALLY M·ME •1
C·CARICATURE .' /.1£H.. HEH .. HEH..
I· IT'S MOR€ LIKE AN EXAGERRATEI>
THECO.W/CSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/BJ JANUARY 1996
whenyou're 011your ow11?
MATT:Yeah, exactly. Freedomseems so much greater whenyou're onyourown.Nooneis watchingyou.Noone is watchingme wastedayson end. No one's watchingme do nothing.Theirjudgmentdoesn't come down on me. But I still feel like I am at my best in a relationship.It Qreedsresponsibilityand it encouragesi1.Alone,I'm selfindulgentand mas1Urba1ory.[laughs]ButI'm happy!I'm happy,in a sense,being that way. Bui not in any kindof a long-1erm You reallyget sick of it
BRAYSHAW:Yourdepictionof beingaloneseemsto be... I mean,sometimesyou'rejust lying on your bed smiling. Buta lotofothertimesyou'rehangingyourheadoryou're out endlesslywalki11gthe streetsafter dark.Freedomin thatsensedoesn'tseem likea reallyappealingthing.
MATT:No. It's like with anything:Everythinghas its momems,and100muchof anythingwill reallyget to you. Like I've said in the comic, I'm a srrong believer in familiaritybreeding contempt I could be living with someoneand if I see themeverysingledayI'm just going to stan to hatethat voiceand hatethat face.I can't helpit. Howdo youconquerthat?Shouldyoueventry to conquer it?I just needto be alonea greatdealof the time.Trishand I livedin suchclosequanersfor those fouryears,it's no wondertha1things wentbad.
BRAYSHAW: Do you feel that the concernsyou haveaboutrepeatingpast mistakesin relationshipsor not beingableto liveupto a,1ideal,carry over into concernwithyour work as well?Mightthosealso be reaso11sthatyou do11 't workas quickly as somebodylikeMatt \Vagner?
MATT:Sure.I'm a perfectionist. I want everythingperfect,fromthe relationships, to my work.10the conditionof my books.Everythingmustbe mint.It's detrimentaland yet it's so s1rongin me.I don't knowhowto beginto combat it. If youcould see howmuchwhite-outI put on the page... I do putan awfullotof timeintothecomic.The infrequencyof the issues isn't entirelydue to my laziness. It's moredue 10my slownessand perfectionism.
THETORONTOTRIO(ANDOTHERS)
BRAYSHAW:We'vetalkedaboutyourneedfor strongmale relationships- or strongrelationshipsperiod.Twoof your most consiste11trelationshipshave been with Seth ond with ChesterBrown. Can you describe how you came to be in contactwith them,and becamefriends with them?
MATT: I was living in Monirealand I came to Toronto10a convention,and that's where I met bothof them,simultaneously,contraryto what's in the strips. I didn't know who Seth was or anything. I hadalreadyheldChesterin suchhigh es1eemand adula1ion - he was, andcontinuesto be my favoritecanoonistworkingtoday,and I was in complete giddy fanboy mode aroundhim. Seth was just very peripheral. He just looked like some pretentious, affected hanger-on,you know? I mean,he 1alkedof doing a comic at tha1 time and I didn't know if he was actually goingto do it or just talk about it. I wasn't familiarwith -
anythingt\ehaddone.ExceptMr.X., whichwasgarbage. But anyway,I met them, staned hanging around them immediately,and found that the three of us had a lot in common.That's all. That's howwe met.
BRAYSHAW:Havebothof thembeenusefulto you in tenns of criticismof your work? • MATT:Invaluableto me. Yeah.I considerthem so completelyresponsiblefor the leapI madefromthe one-page stripsto the comicbook.Entirely.I did the firsttwo issues and thenI didn't know whereto go with the thirdissue.I penciledthe wholethingandthenshowedthemthe pencils and they both said, ''This completelysucks!"BecauseI wasreallytryingto disguisepeople,evenmoreso thanthat Andy and Kim couple. I was trying to really create this wholefictitiousthingthat wasfloppingmiserably. I think I madeAndysomekindof streetperformer a juggleror somethinghateful like that. Anyway,Chesterand Seth bothhatedit andsaidso.I endedupstartingthewholeissue over.Andstufflikecoversketches.(laughs]I' IIshowthem cover sketchesand they'll laugh!heirheadsoff and say, "Areyou serious?!"I'm like, "Uh no " [laughs]I'm completelyindebtedto them.
BRAYSHAW:Youhavespokenof your regardfor Chester's I Never LikedYou. Whatwas it particularlyaboutthat workthatappealsto you? I thinkI see similaritiesin the storytellingbetween I NeverLikedYouandFairWeather. Thatis, notderivativethings,butstruclllralsimilarities.
MATT:Seth and I both respondwith... There's an oft-repeatedphrase,that the thingwe mostadmire aboutChetis hisstorytellingability.lthooksyouor at leastit hooksme.TheminuteI startreadinghis stuff, I just can't jump off. It reads and flows so naturally,that it's just how it shouldbe. That's whatI admireabout it. And his an. And his originalityand daringfromproject-to-projector issue-to-issue.He's covered a lot of stuff in his shon ten years. Unlike other cartoonistswho rest on their laurels and repeat them-
THECOMICSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW 118J JANUARY/9ll<S
63
"Iwasincomplete • giddyfanboymode around[Chester]. Sethwasjustvery peripheral.Hejust lookedlikesome pretentious,affected, hanger-on,youknow? I mean,hetalked of doingacomicatthat timeand I didn'tknow ifhewasactually goingtodoItor justtalkabout it I wasn'tfamiliarwith anythinghehaddone. ExceptMr.X.,which wasgarbage."
ABOVEANDOPPOSITE: Tltesrereorypicalcomic fan ',t mother:Mou·., Mom in Fair Weather.
selves Especiallycartoonistswhostickwithcontinuing charactersand successfulfonnulas.
BRAYSHAW:You'rebeingawfullyvaguehere.
MATT:[laughs)You know whoI'm talkingabout!
BRAYSHAW: Did we interviewthemlastissue?[TCJ# 178)
MATT:[laughs] I don't buy the Journal,so I wouldn't know!ButI'm noone totalk,becauseI've got a continuing charactertoo,you know?
BRAYSHAW: Oneof the criticismsthatgets levelledat you by readers,whichI thinkperhapsis not a verysophisti• catedcriticism,is the ideathat, "Weloveyoubecauseyou get dumpedon." I thinkthat's basedon a verysuperficial readingof thebook.lnfact,justreadingoverallyourwork beforedoing the interviewtoday,I was reallystruckby how much changethere is, both in terms of how you actuallystructure·stories,and in the varietyof material thatyouconsider.There'sa muchwidervarietyof themes thanjust you gettingdumped011.
MATT:Yeah,I wouldguess that that relationshipstuff is moreentertainingand funnierto peoplein my age group whocan relateto it beuer.It's understandable. I expected salesor interestto drop in this currentstory.But,c'est la v,e.
QRAYSHAW:Well,maybethat'sbetterthanbeingsomebody like,say, Ed Brubakerandjust perpetuatingthesame
MATT:Look Ed, we're talking about you! [laughs)No, perpetuatingwhat?
BRAYSHAW:Well,just the samekind of superficialangst· riddenstoriesoverand over,issueafter issue.
MATT:Yeah, well,I don't really identifywith the slacker generation.
BRAYSHAW:You'redismissiveof muchof the stuff in the KitchenSink collection.Oneof the thingsthatinterested
me was that there was a lot of really straightforward observationi11it, whichworkedreallywellinstripslikethe oneyou didaboutgoingto visityourfather afterhisheart attack,or your biographyof your grandfather.Just very simplytold,11011-inflecredpieces,whichseemverycloseto the kind of rhythmsand structuresyou' re workingwith now.
MATT:Yeah,I still like the grandfatherstrip.Towardsthe end of the KitchenSink book, I was trying to do longer stories.My father's heart attack and the shiatsu strip... They might be the strongestthings in therejust because they're longer.
BRAYSHAW: I'm thinkingof your strip aboutyourfather, how it speaks to a whole bunch of things that you're concernedwith. Yourfamily,and to the collecting,and.it kindof analyzesthatacquisitivementalityas well,in a way thatI thoughtwasreallyi11teresti11gand reallymoving.
MATT:Yeah, I ended up buying that damn Pee-Wee's Playhousefora secondand thirdtime,andgettingridof it againand again.[laughs]I currentlydon't own it. I don't want it. Yeah, his heart attack was a hard thing for me becauseI alwaysjust expectthe worst.In my mindhe was alreadyin the grave.It was hard to deal with.
BRAYSHAW: Do youfeel close to yourpare111s?
MATT: Oh yeah. Extremely.
BRAYSHAW: Did youas a kid?
MATT:yeah, I'd say so.
BRAYSHAW: Have theirrelationshipschangedwithage in any way? /11Fair Weather,you portrayyour mom way moresympathe1icallyandfairly thanyouda in theKitchen Sinkwork.Shedoesn'tcomeacrossasquiteas superficial.
MATT:Yeah.The relationshipwith my momhas changed a lotinthat-this is fairlyrecently,maybein the lasteight
"Therelationshipwith mymomhaschanged a lotinthat- thisis fairlyrecently,maybe inthelasteightyears orso,thatI'velearned tocontrolmytemper aroundher.[laughs] I'vestoppedarguing withher.Nobodycan aggravatemelike shedoesinperson."
64 • •
THEY'REIN THf TRASH. I THREWTHEM OUT.
TH£COMIC$/OU/IJ/ALJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/BJ JANUARY1996
/VIAYBEIF YOUHAD MOWED THE LAWN WHEN l ASKED 'IOU TO, THIS ,.,IGHT NOT HAVEHAP--
this preoccupationwithJesus I've alwaysfelt likeI've wantedherto facerealityandfaceherself,andI've always felt that a stronghandforcingher to do that wouldbe the bestsolution.But I wascompletelydeludingmyself.
BRAYSHAW: / thinkthat'sprobablyindicativeof-listen to me talk! - but that sowuls like a more mature,more sympatheticapproach,whichmirrorswluuI thinkI seein thecomic.
MATI:Maybe.She's meanerin the comic though.In the secondchapterof FairWeather,she's realmean![laughs]
BRAYSHAW:Yeah,burwe'vejust seenyoui11action,right? Weget to see you 011 the phone,and we get to see your responsesto her,andhermom.
MATI:[laughs)Yeah,I've neverreallycompletelyhealed fromthat incident.
BRAVSHAW:Justbecausethat waskind of o threatto the stabilityyoutalkaboutliking?Thatsomeoneelsecoulddo thatto yourpossessions?
MATI:Yeah,the disorderof the universe.That mightbe whatcollectingis a symptomof.Theurgetocontrolthings, or to put an orderto things.
BRAVSHAW:Doyou thinkthatacquiringthingsis a substitutefor relationshipswithpeople?
MATI:No.... I feel like I'm on the psychiatrist'scouch!
yearsor so, thatI've learnedto controlmy temperaround her.[laughs)I've stoppedarguingwithher.Nobodycan aggravateme likeshe does in person.I'm aroundher for mereminutes,andallthe buttonsarebeingpushedandI'm completelyreadyto fly off the handle.I can't explainit, but it definitelyis somehowrelatedto myrelation~hips,or myproblems,withwomen.ButI've learnedtokeepa civil tongue.and relaxa bit morearoundher. I've given up tryingtochangeher,I shouldsay.l'vealwaysthoughtthat
BRAYSHAW:Doyou thinkthatcollecti11gthingsis a wayof sublimatingor externalizingthings that are bothering you? I'm thinkingspecificallyof-the strip whereyour father is convalescingfrom his heartattack,'andyou're very,veryupsetby it andhavingdifficultydiscussingthat upsetwithanyof yourfamily. Yo11go outandobsessively acquirea bunchof toysandplay withthem.Andyoucan't quirefigureout whyyou wantedthem,but obviouslythey wereservingsomereallyimportantneedat rharrime.
MATI:Yeah,I'm not surewhatthatneedis, though.I don't know.I can't get any distancebecauseI'm stillthat way. I'm still acquisitive. I alwaysthink,"It's the things!Gotta havethem!"
BRAVSHAW:Doyouassociatethosethingswithparticular memoriesor eventsfrom childhood?
MAn: Notalways.I wasjust in L.A.f!)rthreeweeksand I
1~LLME! Tll£COMIC$JOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/BJ JANUARY1996
"She'smeaner in thecomicthough. Inthesecondchapter ofFairWeather, she'srealmean!n
:.calf'ilroand•buyinglalfsorts of booksth'atI neverwould
B~YSHAw: Canyou falkaboutconsciousreasons/orihat?' 'Jiavei;wan!edy~rs ago.It's n19s1Jyt?ooks.Th~tstripwas MATT:The approachis doinglongerstoriesas opposedto, just abouta mil.dflirtationwithtoycpllectingthatI nipped a single page,just a little vignette.That's mostly the in the bud. It wasjust a few View-masterreels and not • reason.Youcan't just stringtogethera bunchof gags for mu~hmore,Butbookshavealwaysbeenthethingthatl'm n'oreasonand expect'itto be a story. ~o's,!3ftivelyseeking,practicallyeveryday.
B;I\AYSIIAW:But whatI'm gettingat is, in the earlystrips, , ·, Eio>°LOIT4Tl6N ANDEMPTY,HOLLOWSEX thehwnorseemeda lot lighteror moregentler. . "
MATT:Okay,to answeryourquestion,I was in lovewhen BRAYSHAW:Te/1me-abouttheaudienceyouhavefound/or I st;i.rtedtheliook,andthatdeterioratedthro·ugbthe course ~ourmaieri~l.Doyo'Ufeeltlzatyou havea "representative 9.f the boolc.BasicallY.the relationshipwas over when( lludierice?\ And if so, do youfei;l that that audie,fceis. :Startedth€firstissue,and that.prettymuchaccountsfor it. fe!lowi1iiwhatY(?U'.r.edoingandaresympathetictochanges My head,was·inthSlclou'ds~riorto t~at. or l;levelt1pme111swhic/1,you're mqking? ' ,,BRAYSHAW;/'111eve11thinkingofsomethingiii E'airWeather, MATT:I'm riotcealry:S,~. I feela largepan of myaudience thesequencewithGpil,theretardedgirl,at the7-1I. /11a inigtit-jps..tbe' peoplt1whoa1e indulgingin a current· se11se,thpt'.iqre,ally;rea(lyfup11yscene-· but ind11other flirtati0,(withc9mics:M~ybetheyfoundHateorEig~{bii.11, :; . sense,it's ,ith:y't,,v;otiifortable' io read.•Whe11you,hit the airdmaybej.u~Jin tht;last fewyearstheyhavediscoveri;(l. seque,ncebftlie condllfSiO.Q you see she's pelidli11gaway t~ese bla,g~,~~Jf,whiteahemJ\tivfcoinics and thiy','{.e crying.Thehumor}!OwSfe,ysmorecynica'lor iro11{cthan asji.ed11!:~,uq_d'WlJi<!hO,Hr5a'regood,andthat's led.someof. , . ,b_efare.,/tseemshdrder . .'1 .. .
th~m ch~~ ,?u( 1my b?<;>k·,But i_td~n•t feel,very , ~-~TT:,Y ~h I ~?uld hqre it's ,l!_!llaturingprocess, or ii_n permanent,you knciw?ft' s hke any (hrtatton-. I feelthat evoluuon. .
~Aeau\lieitce1,s\lery'uh,stable. I feel the largemajorityof:' .• BRAYSHAW:Flieresee1113ralso to be 111qre;of<'aj11dgme11t i~eaucfJ,ene(\jusl\\1/antsto:l>eentertl\in'ed,and-isn'tlooking ' passedon·yoflryo1111gerself thatJ don•'t11eceisarilythink afthese tl,iing'stoo ,sefiously.,:ha~s just my·guess, the waspresentintheearlierwork.Youseemtobemuchmore thi>ilghtt'h'ataltem'a!ivqcomicsmighfbeperceivedas hip' • corisciouslymaklngjudg'me11tsabout yourself.I'm won-' and>cool.by,fnat age group, and they'.lloutgrowthem deringwhethe_rthatmightbe a co11sciousthingas well? ma§be.' ' • • • ,; • MATT:No,I'm not conscious. I don't knowwhatto say- ••• • •• ' • \ • ' ft BRAYSffAW:Right, i/µ11the subject ,natter m{gh1have ,'you'r!)asking'totlghquestioos.I just don't.know. r ,._ _, •' • \ I• c;hapg~d,dramqticaUy-from a Marvelor a DC comic,but - 111\AYS!f.AW, Someof theed'rjlerKitchenSinkstripsarejust. siill i('s:~,iJi.sposable/onn of entertai11ment, O,f it's per- ~es~ripfi~~.tatalogs r;fyourself- "Thingsyou need to c.eiv.edas~eJ.11gefiSf!psa_ble. ' •• lu;owaliputJ~e Matt, parts qTJe~tw9, and three." You M/lfl';'Yeah....N111eh''like a lot of peopleembracedthe p,re/(Ymuch lay oil/ characteristics - and a Lotof the, unclergrp~n~s~ut.'.. My aS(?irations"re muchh!g~er. earlier·stripsf,!fo,!Ji:z.tPS,.."(ell, where.youjust kind of BR/'YSl;l~'(I':W,el~.L'venoticedthat the word "collection·• describespm,i·aspfctof your character- but you.·do,;•t lrps•?9me;up,a{oi ' . nzakea jiJ.agnten(.1l~Out it, Yo_u-justsimplydepict'solne fdAtj:.''4eah,,t~e comics mean nothing to m·e,really. event_tqat~eiit'o;t..Or if Y,atiqo discusssoi11ethi11g, you Th~y''rejus) glorified xeroxedpamphletstha\ will ... dfstuss !tver1 qui<:kly.f,.ikewhat-you-saydbout pon1: ~<>Jg_otteii.j~ 20 -~,e,!lr~They won't be aroun~.tliey',re.••• "W,ell,l'know1t,degra/i~f•WOmeJJ, but I.was1e111porarily meaningless:Xnd the audienceis comearatively small, willingto overlookthis becauseI was Lustful. "
6.J)OO'or'some:tbing,initially.But tne collectionsreally,I' 11 MATT:r1augh~lYeah,yeah'.::'···
• • • 1B~YSHA~:.And it seemstb"!e that.the/a{e,rworkis 11iuch • BRAYSHAW:Oneof 1he-cri,ticismsthat has bee11leve/ledat • mbreconcerned,withjudgingdecisionsLiketnacoranalyzsay,Cliesie(s VmJe_rw'a.ier is thatthei11di~idualissuesare ''in~'th(ngs.'lik,ethat, or thinkingthr,oughissu~slike that pr,ettymuch ahin?Jlligibleon their ow11,that,is, tlrey 'm1,ch111oreconsciously. • • prov/de-such a smallehw1kofa Largerstorythatit's realiy MATT:'Sure.I 'deti~i\elyput mor~'ihoughtinto them.The hprdfor someonetofigure out 1rhat'sgoingon. Do'you .· single~pagestripswere very•insignific'ant in my.mind.It feel a heedto structureindividualissuesso thaii11asense • was more!hesum'ofth~totalihaicounted.Again,it's the theyqlmost.§tand,alorw,i11depe11de11t of the Largersto{'Y? approachof tr.yingtotellalongerst9ry,structuringscenes I,•~ M:4TT:Yeah;lthinWth~t'sprettyapparentin theissues.1Jie . Thatchangeseye_rything.Thatmakesyou thinkmoreand issuesfeellike_t~ey.~pen'and<;lose,likechapte[S,In,terfns ••thoseth9ughtsleadto otherthought~... • of t~~ing. of .1~5rlle9tion!!h~t maY.not the best ,,;. 'BRA~w: 1;k11~.",: jt wo,uld)Jedifficultbecauseofthepacr approach:i:::hesterrss~emghisworkas collectionsas well, atwh,chy,oti_work,~utcouldyou eversee-your.selfdoing liiit m,oreto 'tli~poin'ithat he's uncompromisingJn that, a stan'd-alone-g}aphic.novel? . • whenhe gytsto the!last pag~of thecomic,that's wherethe MATT:Sure.;}de~llythat's the-wayit shoulei.beworking: a~ falls.Anp_t~~r'i3~t;r.has?9.lik!,l it or lu~~ ~t.,Itdoesn't • Tryingto procfuce a 200-pages.trip~pveland then haveit even matterJf 11 ma~es.sense'becauseagain,it's only the be read th~tway.If I could get that do'neonce a year,I collectionthat count~But I c~n•tworkthat way.I feel a . woulclIledoingthat.Just last night,tryingto,fallasleep,I certainoqligatiop.l9'.~plepickingup the comicto give ·, Wl\S.Jhinkingaboutthis;l wasthinki(lgaboutwhenI wrap themsomethingsatisfying. up this story and I stari the next collection,I was very BRAYSHAW:The KitchenSink collectio11sare 111uch,nore obsess~ withtryingto developa simpler,quickerstyle.I immediatelyfu11nyilfa,i theDrawn& Quarterlywork.Do equatethiswithusinga pennibinsteadof a brushforsome you/eel thatyourusepf humorin thestriplzascha11gedas reason.I'm obsessedwiththe.workof FrankKing;Casothe workhas mat11reif? line Al/ey, and a lot of these old strip anists that were MATT:Sure. crankingit out so quickly.I mean. they were doing six
hope,h~vethe;Stayif!gpower.
: ' • 66
i , "Gb~ste~ is seeingh.isw9rk,as · collectionsas.we!I,.but. moretothepoi~tthaj he'sunco1J1promising inth~t,whe_nhegejs , .tothela.stpageof, the,comi~,:thafs~ wher~theax.falls. Andthe,reader.hasto ' likeit orlumpit., It doesn'tevenmatter if it makessense becauseagain,it's onlythecollection thatcounts.But I can'tworkthatway, ·1feela certain obligation to people pickingupthecomic togivethemsome• thingsatisfying,"
11/ECO.IIICSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/SJ JANUARY199'5
dailiesand a huge Sundayonce a week. And Schulzis an,01herone witha great,fas1.simpletechnique.I'd love to be able 10jusl do i11ha1quickly.Il remainsto be seen though.It's a monumentalchallenge1ha1 I can't evenbear 10thinkabout.
HAHAHA ! IT:SNOTOUR FAUlTYOUkff P PICICIN' FUNNY SONGS
BRAYSHAW:Haveyou hadany tlwughtsaboutthestoryline tofollow Fair Weather?
MATT:Sure.I thinkaboutit everyday. [laughs]It sounds like I'm bragging I I'm not bragging,I swear! I could conceivablydo a current-daystorythat wouldmakemy-
ABOVE: Ma11•smore mature, troubling
humor
fl LOoOOoO\IE ! LOVEWitt tcEEPUS TOGETHER ...THINI< OFME &ASE WHEIIEVER ....f) ooo. :'I --STOP·' cuz I REAllY lOVE I I vou ! STOP.'cuz r HAHAUAHAH HAHAHAHA!! SEEN THINICIN'OF VA f IV~
, WHEW: • HEtf HEH
!
Tl/£COMICSJOURNAl JOE MATT INTERVIEW l/8J JANUARY /996
"Theapproach isdoinglongerstories asopposedtoa singlepage,justa littlevignette. That'smostlythe reason.Youcan'tjust stringtogether a bunch ofgagsfornoreason andexpect it to bea story."
of
on display. 67 •
sense
self look muchworsethanI ever have.But the motives, again,seemnotartisticallymotivated.It's morewantingto shockpeopleor something. I don't thinkI'll do thatstory. I do think of this as the definitivechildhoodstory I'm doing now. I do want to do a teenagestory, too, that wouldprobablytakeplaceimmediatelyfollowinggraduationfromhighschool.But! don't knowif thatwillbet he next thing I do or not. I reallyenvy more playful and imaginativeand inventivestripsright now.Things like Chet's Ed the HappyClownstuffreallyappeals-tome, it lookslike a hell of a lot of fun-compared 10 whatI'm doing now. Inking an issue in my current style is like pulling teeth, it's so torturous.But the writingand the pencilingare fun.
BRAYSHAW:Whatdo you mean whenyou say you COffld "makeyourselflookworse?"
MATT:WhatIi-eallymeantwas, the temptationis thereto lie or to fictionalize,while keepingthe appearanceof autobiograph~.Likefor instance, I could_rotallyfabricate a scenewhereI'm rapinga woman,andI coulddo it in such a waythat it wouldseemplausibleor something.It's just that wholetemptationof-powerto manipulatethe readers that I've got to resist.
BRAYSHAW:Do you see yourselftradingon thatpowerin reallife?Thatis;fromsome'ofthe lettersthatyouprint,it seemslikesomepeoplealmostwantto meet "JoeMattthe fucked-upcartooncharacter. "
eventandexecutingit. But in-regardsto the photographs, I mean,evenbeinginterviewed,it adds somethingto the perceptionof the comicsthat I feel a real lossof control over. This interviewis completelyself-conscious.and I wish I could have written·the answers as opposed 10 speakingthem.Ijust hatethis wholeprocess.I'm so self. conscious.So worriedthat th.isinterviewis boring.And thesamewithreal life.I worrythatI'll meeta readerand I'm nothinglike Who knows?I don't knowhowI'm perceived.But I like beingin control.
BRAYSHAW:Whydo youfeel a need to be in control?
MATT:[laughs)Oh, Dr. Freud...
• BRAYSHAW:It'sjust thatit's an issuethatcomesup through the entirebodyof work.
MATT:lt'sa goodquestion.[longsilenceJIdon't know,it's just preferable,that's all. It probablystemsfroma desire to be lovedor something.That's probablywhereeverythingstemsfrom.I wouldimagine.
BRAYSHAW:looking at Fair We~ther,one of the things thatstrikesme thereis thathowoftenyou depictyourself as not being in control. That is, your comic collection vanishes011 you, and one of your old friends, Rizzo, is now out 10 kill youfor reasonsyou can't quite t'1tdersta11d.That kind of suburba_nworld seems like a scary and arbitraryplace.
MATT:Yeah.It's even worseas an adult. You neverare • in control.One of the things that never fails to make MATT:Yeah.I alwaysfeeldisappointing in real life. i don't really expectto meetanyof
beingaroundan attrac-
tive woman, and acting the. readers.. I' ye neverwanted·to doanythingcontrary- to the comic;.Ididn't even wantmy photograph printe(I. Years ago I thought, ''I'm goingto controlanyphotosofme being printed, because!don't wantto draw attention to fact thatthe comicisn't reality."I'd just likereaders 10 be able to get lost in thecomicandbuyinto it:
BRAYSHAW:And to acceptitas somethingthat standsapartfrom yourself. •
MATT:Yeah.
BRAYSHAW:Butsomewhere ill thosebreakupstories,that relationshipgot pretty con/us-. ing.ltfeltveryimmediate.Thebreakup storieswere·condensedandchangedand people weredisguised,but at the same time,theyfelt reallyimmediate.Maybe that's a tributeto how they'retold.
MATT:They weren't immediate.There was at leasta year's time betweenthe
differently.I can't even talk to them practi• cally.Thereis a whole,lecherous,possessive side that wants to grab them, or be accepted and loved by them. There are _allthesethingsatwork, • and I'll! so awareof • them, that it domi- 0 • natesanyotherpersonality.
BRAYSHAW:Do you make a distinctionbetweenhaving sex andbeinglovedor lbeingaccepted?
MATT:Sure, entirely. Of C't>urse.
BRAVSHAW:Andhaveyoubeen involvedill -
MATT:Yeah,I've had empty, hollowsex. .
BRAYSHAW:Oh no, no, that's· not... WhatI wasaskingwas,have you been in relationships,male or female,whereyou havefelt thatacceptance,and otherissueshavekindoffal/enaway?I mean,in a sense, your relationshipwith Sethsee,nsa bit like that, where _. -.-there are disagreements
• but
MATT:Yeah,there'sChester,Seth,
"YouneverareIn control.Oneofthe thingsthatnever failstomakeme miserable,isbeing aroundanattractive woman,andacting differently. I can't eventalktotherri practically.Thereis a wholelecherous, ppssessivesidethat wantstograbthem, orbeacceptedand lovedbythem."
68
ABOVE: A .,1a11d-aloneJoe Mau image. playing on his growing reputmion.
,,,,,,.-:-----:~:-----... me miserable,is
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THECOMICSJOURJIALJOE MATT INTERVIEW 1183 JANUARY1996
THAT's RIGHT.
; GIGGLE : ESfECIAILV BIG HARD DICKS
MMMMMM ...
SPEAl<tNG OF 816 HARD OICl<S
AND WE £VEN HAVE A FRESH NEW CONDOM FOR IT.
andmyold friendKevin.I feelverycloseto them.There's a certainamountof leewayand forgivenessand accep• tancethattheyhaveformethatis inexplicablein mymind. I feel like basicallyI'm an unlikableperson,and whenI meetpeople- Sethevensays it in that strip- I havean exploitivepersonality:the minute I meet somebody,I want to know whatbooksthey have. I mean,just being downstairswith you in the coffee shop I was thinking, "You betterpick up the bill." I'm just so opportunistic: greedy,for lackof a betterword.It's mydefiningcharacteristicin thechildhoodstory.AndI'm self-absorbedand all thatothershit. It's so hardfor me to feel anyworth,as a friend.and in a relationshipwith a female.I'm never reallysure what it is I have to offer, becauseit doesn't seemlike much.i don't want10 makeanycompromises. Whodoes?
BRAYSHAW: Do you at least accept though that you're goingto have to? I mean,all the timeyou werewithTrish it wasbasically,"Okay,thisis my set of criteria.so don't violatethese criteria."
MATT:You mean.physical?
BRAYSHAW:No,just, "Okay,I livemy life, you liveyours, just don't c/leaton me."
MATT:Yeah.a lot of that is still in me and it's probably nevergoing to leave.The worst times of my life were
I· I'VE BEEN WAITINGMV WHOLE LIFE FOR THIS ! I'VE G·G·GOIT/1 MIIKE THIS LAST.' FIRST. I'M GONNATRV EVERVPOSITION Z CAN THINK oF ANO THEN I'M GOHN/I··-!i- OH GOO! PID THE CONDOl'I JVST SLIP OFF?! Ho 110 ,r·s STILL TllERE -; WHEW:: I· I MUST BE CR/llV RtSl<IN6 A/0$ LIK( THIS 8•8VT ITS JI/ST THIS 011cl AAIO I AM WEARING 11 <•NOol'I ••evr STILL ..•
whenjealousyreared its ugly head.It's devastating.My criteria are [laughs]- it's so ridiculousto even have criteria.
BRAYSHAW: Weall knowaboutthe infamous"list," right?
MATT:Right,thephysical1.ist.That'sanauemprto establish somecontroloverwhatI'm lookingfor and whatI want. Needs and wants always seem to be kind of opposed though.Youaskedaboutthedistinctionbetweensex, and sexwithlove Thepan thatinfuriatesme is The whole sexual.driveinfuriatesme. So often it's the physicalthat attractsme, and it's the sex I'm after, likea lot of males. Andevenonceyoudo havethe hollowsex [laughs)I've neverevenreallyhadgoodsexwithoutlove Scratchthis out! Yeah,the bestsex has alwaysbeen withlove,and in thatcaseit's alwaysbeenwithTrish.Therehaveonlybeen a fewothers,but it has alwaysbeenregretfulin my mind and not,worthit. But what frustratesme is that I delude myselfand thinkI actuallyam interestedin a girl or want herand am in lovewithher, whenin factit's all physical, but you can neversee it untilyou're out of it. Or,/ can't. anyway,untilI'm outsideof it or untilit's over.It's all so sickand twisted.It's feedingon rejection.Beingattracted to the unauainableor the rejectingtypes.It's awful.It's a realcursethat's got to be combatedif personalhappiness is ever 10 be attained.
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TH£COM/CSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/BJ JANUARY /996
"Youaskedabout thedistinctionbetween sex,andsexwithlove... Thepartthatinfuriates meis...Thewhole sexualdriveinfuriates me.Sooftenit'sthe physicalthatattracts me,andit'sthesex I'mafter,likea lotof males.Andevenonce youdohavethe hollowsex...[laughs] I'venevereven reallyhadgoodsex withoutlove... Scratchthisout!"
TOP: The sex scene frtm! Peepshow#4.
ABOVE: Mall does Kilroy.
69
Picture by Bryce Duffy.
ABOVE:U1111ub/islredMtm illu.flration.
OPPOSITE:Sample from 011ecif the [lroup .rketc/rbook.<.
BRAYSHAW:Doyoufind thatit getseasierwithageor that you get moreperspectiveon it?
MATT:Yes andno. Everydayis a learningexperience,but thereare plentyof dirtyold menout therewho failedthe course.I'm just doingmy best.
I'LLBEGOOD! I PROMISE!
BRAYSHAW:Howdo you see it now?
MATT:It's just nostalgicnow.KitchenSink hasput out20 volumesso far andthe andoesn't lookasgoodto me as it usedto, andirdoesn'treadnearlyas wellassomethinglike GasolineAlley.There are so manystrips I prefermuch more.
BRAYSHAW:You'vejust gotten into GasolineAlley recently?
MATT:Yeah. And it hasn't been collectedat all, so I'm spendinga lotof moneybuyingtheclippedstripsfromBill Blackbeard.Someof my favoritestripsare little Orphan Annie,Popeye,KrazyKat,Dick Tracy,BarneyGoogle...
BRAYSHAW:Weremostof thesethingsthatyouhadseenor are all thesestripsyou've discoveredin laterlife?
MATT:Yeah, this is fairly recent. It's more or less the personalvisionthatcomesacross,and the sensibility.
BRAYSHAW:Andyou'reprobablymuchbettersituatednow to enjoythe wordplay,like in KrazyKat, thanyou would have beei1as a kid.
MATT:Yeah.That remindsmeof Pogo.I stillcan't appreciateit. I canappreciatethe an,butI canneverget through it whenI try to read it. MaybesomedayI'll be readyfor ii, I don't know.
BRAYSHAW:\Vhenyou look at a strip or whenyoujudge a strip,areyoujudgingit primarily011thebasisof theart or 011the interactionof the art and writing?
MATT:It's alwaysthe writingfirst.I reallyfeel likethe art is secondary.Ideallythetwofunctionas one.Butalsoa lot of thesestripshavea nostalgiccharmthatdoesn'tharken backto mychildhood,butjust the whole'30s sensibility. There's a similarityin the an, I find, in a lot of theseold newspaperstrips.I don't knowwhataccountsforit.I thil)k pan of it might be the necessityof doing these strips quicklyon a daily basis.I just see a lotof similarity<inthe pen work... I can't reallyexplainit.
BRAYSHAW:Becauseit hastogetdonefast, thearthastobe deliberatelysimplified?That there's no roomfor the techniquetheyuse 110wwherethere's50millio11linesall over everything?
MATT:I see things like Schulz·and Frank Kingas a real distillation of the fundamentalsof cartooning.Like, nothing's a bettersubstitutefor an eye than a blackdot It extendsto solidblackpantsor something.It's so hard to explain.Youreye is controlledas you're lookingat it.The clarity,aboveall, comesacrossin all theseold strips,no matterhow muchthey're reduced.It's so superior
BRAYSHAW:They're1101cluttered.There'snothingbeyond what'sneededto co11vey-
THEMESANDINFLUENCES
BRAYSHAW:Earlieryouweretellingme howyoucollected Li'I Abnerand cut it out andput it togetherbecauseyou sawa continuitythere.thatyou wantedto preserve.
MATT:Yeah,and I reallylikethe artwork,too. I likedthe variationin line.The canooninessof it all. It remindedme of the grotesquenessor thedistortionof BigDaddyRoth. Or the guy who did thoseOdd Rod stickers,I think his name was RobertTaylor,and I totallylovedhis stuff. I copiedhim like crazy.
BRAYSHAW:Wereyou consciouslypickingup on Capp's, politics?
MATT:No. notat all. I rememberbeingsexuallyarousedby the Wolf-Gal.That wouldhave been '71 or '72. I must havebeen nineyearsold.
MATT:Right,the designsandthe compositionsare totally masterful.Andno matterhowmuchclutteringor detailor cross-hatchingthere is, the imageis still readilyclear. I thinkof my style kind of asa cross betweenSchulzand Crumb,whereI simplify;I want it simpleand clear. but thenpartof mefeelsit's tooempty,so I havetoputallthese linesanddetaileverywhereto fill it out. ButI reallywish I didn't.
BRAYSHAW:One of the thingsthat surprisedand pleased me was,whenwe weretalkingearlierabouthowyoucould copy anyone.But thenyou also said you drewa lotfrom life, and that for you, drawingfrom life was just like copying,right?That wassomethingthatI reallygotfrom Crumbafterseeingthefil,n, watchinghimwa11deraround outof doors,sketching,a11djust how quicklyandc/ea11/y somethingcouldget distilleddow1101110 thepage.
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"Irememberbeing sexuallyaroused bytheWolf-Gal. Thatwouldhave been'71or'72. I musthavebeen nineyearsold."
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111£COMICSJOURNALJOE MATT INTERVIEW I/BJ JANUARY IW>S
