TMTYB S01E09 (Roles and Responsibilities) This is Take Me To Your Board from the Tasmanian Council of Social Service. This show is about governance, and it's not just for aspiring or current board members. It's for anyone who wants to hear from some of the country's top leaders about how a good board really should work. Each episode's based on one of the ten principles of not-for-profit governance as laid out by the Australian Institute of Company Directors, hosted by Bridget Delaney and Cameron Allen. This is episode number nine, Roles and Responsibilities. Bridget Delaney: Welcome to Take Me To Your Board. My name is Bridget and here with me today is Cameron. Cameron Allen: Great to be here as always. Bridget Delaney: Today, we are going to have a look at a principle that helps us define how we ensure the foundations of good governance are in place. It is the first place we should start before we decide to jump in and take on the role of board member. Today, we are talking about roles and responsibilities. So, what is a board member and what are they responsible for? According to the Australian Institute of Company Directors, a board member is on an organisation's board and together they have ultimate responsibility for the organisation. This relationship between a board member and the organisation is one of trust and very similar to being the trustee of someone else's money. As such, the overall duties of a board member are to act in good faith and for proper purpose, to act with reasonable care, skill and due diligence, not to improperly use information or position, and to disclose and manage conflicts of interest. Bridget Delaney: Board members operate as a collective and have responsibility to provide overall governance, management, and strategic direction of the organisation. As a collective, the board have ultimate accountability and therefore individuals remain responsible for any decision made at board meetings, regardless of the individual attention. As such, it is important board members understand their roles and responsibilities to an organisation. Cameron Allen: So, what happens when board members don't understand or follow through with their roles and responsibilities? Bridget Delaney: That's a good question. There is so much more to unpack on this principle, but let's get to the juicy part. Here's an example that is very close to home this time and still being hotly debated, the Australia Post Cartier watch saga. You may be following this closely and you may be ignoring it entirely. But be aware, we will not go over all the facts here. It is simply being used for discussion, paying particular attention to the role and the responsibility the board have in this example. The Australia Post saga begins in 2018 TMTYB S01E09 Roles and Responsibilities Transcript by Rev.com
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when Christine Holgate, the then CEO of Australia Post, disclosed to a Senate hearing the purchase of Cartier watches to the amount of $19,950 for four senior executives as rewards for landing a large deal. The gifts were given with a thank you card signed by the then chair of the board, John Stanhope. Fast forward two years to 2020, Prime Minister Scott Morrison brought this information to the House of Representatives saying he was appalled and shocked at the misuse of funds and launching the issue into the media and the public domain. Cameron Allen: I seem to remember he was quite scathing at the time. Bridget Delaney: That's right. The Prime Minister publicly requested that Christine Holgate step down from her role as the CEO of Australia Post. Now, this is where it gets murky. The Australia Post board aligned their response with that of the Prime Minister. Later communications said she had agreed to step down. Here, Christine Holgate was put in the limelight and used as a sole person to blame for the misuse of funds. Cameron Allen: It's worth noting at this point that Christine received a lot of vitriol off the back of the public comments made by the Prime Minister. Bridget Delaney: For the next week, media reported from the chair of the board that Christine had agreed to step aside while the investigation was underway. Through the court hearings, it came to light the amount of money Christine spent on chauffeur-driven cars, $75,000, office of the CEO expenses, $300,000, reputational management consultations, 119,000, and leadership events, 43,000 at the Collingwood Football Clubs headquarters, of which she is on the club's board. The saga continues as Christine comes forward to express her displeasure at how she was treated by the Prime Minister and the board and that she never agreed to stand down and was rather thrown under the bus. There seems to be fine, crossing of hairs over who said they would do what and what the board expected Christine to do. For instance, they claim to have approved bonuses of up to $5,000 per executive but didn't sign off on a $5,000 watch. This has brought forward the call for cultural change within Australia Post, also resulting in the board being called forward to provide evidence to a Senate committee. And while there is still a lot of discussion about what actually transpired between the board and Christine, what was on offer and what wasn't and who agreed to do what, it raises a wonderful question for our podcast, namely, who is responsible for the spending of the money. For the culture of giving employees rewards and for the treatment of Christine Holgate? What is the role of the board here? They received financial reports. Did they not know about the expenses? What is the difference between a $5,000 bonus and a Cartier watch to the same value? Is their responsibility to the organisation, to the political party or to the CEO in the handling of these matters, or is it more nuanced than that? And considering this came to light two years after the fact, what is the board's responsibility in not having dealt with it sooner? It is a very hot topic with many more intricacies that I have not discussed here. So, I'm excited to explore the goings on in more detail and learn more from our guest.
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Cameron Allen: Today's special guest is Dr Katrena Stephenson. In January this year, Katrena decided to put her 13 years of advocating for local government into operational practice and took up the position of Director of Environment Development and Community at Kingborough Council, her local council. Prior to that, Katrena had spent over five years as CEO of the Local Government Association of Tasmania, the first woman to hold the role in the organisation's a hundred plus year history. She also held the position of LGATs policy director for several years. Before entering the local government sector, Katrena held operational policy and evaluation roles in a number of state government departments, both here in Tasmania and in the UK. Katrena has undertaken a range of voluntary and paid board positions and is currently a member of the Municipal Association of Victoria's Insurance Board, the AICD State Council, the Premier’s Health and Wellbeing Advisory Council, and the board of the Kingston Neighborhood House. With abundant management experience and advanced skills in community engagement and stakeholder management, governance, political analysis, strategic planning, and policy development (quite a mouthful), it is my pleasure to welcome Katrena to the show. Thanks for coming in Katrena. Dr Katrena Stephenson: Thank you for having me. Cameron Allen: First, I'd really love to get your take with regard to the Australia Post scandal. It's quite a fresh one in our minds and I'm sure to many of our listeners. Now, the Cartier watches caused quite a stir at the time and then the subsequent treatment of Christina Holgate. I guess if we look at it from a board perspective, where did this all go wrong? What were the taell-tale signs and what could have been done differently to perhaps mitigate some of what we saw in the fallout? Dr Katrena Stephenson: Yes. Well, I know there are some very strong opinions around this case, and I'm going to add my own strong opinion to that. Cameron Allen: That's great. Dr Katrena Stephenson: So, in my view, this is clearly a failure of board governance. While Ms Holgate might have failed to apply the pub test, I think the fact that the chair and the board made a decision to give bonuses in the absence of a clear framework or policy, they delegated the decision to her and then didn't stand by that. And they didn't stand by their organisation in the way that they responded to the public criticism. So, they failed in the core duty of the board, which is to put the organisation first. It seemed clear to me that they were putting them themselves first in that instance. So regardless of whether we like it or not, corporate Australia does use bonus systems. They use incentive-based pay measures. It's not unusual. It's consistent with that sort of corporate practice. But the board failed to explicitly lay out the policy TMTYB S01E09 Roles and Responsibilities Transcript by Rev.com
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that they felt comfortable with. They delegated that decision. Having done that, they should have stood by Ms Holgate going forward and I feel like they delegated their board duty in that regard. Cameron Allen: And we saw once this reached the press and blew into a little bit of a bonfire, do you think there was a lack of accountability across the board there? No one really stood up and said, "the buck stops with me." Dr Katrena Stephenson: They didn't hold themselves accountable in any way. Where were their policies? Where was their risk oversight? Where was the issues resolution framework? These are core governance tools and it didn’t look like any were applied. They also, as I said, they took the viewpoint of the shareholder, the one shareholder being the Australian Government, the Prime Minister, over their duty to the organisation. Those combination of things meant that they should have fallen on their swords in my view. Cameron Allen: The director was quite staunch, obviously throughout all the hearings in terms of standing by his version of events. And we saw how that ended up in the wash, which was not great in terms of reputational damage to Australia Post. Is there something they could have done differently, and I'm assuming this is a multi-faceted answer, to prevent that fallout? Dr Katrena Stephenson: I think the first thing they should have done was had a crisis conference as a board. So, this has hit the public domain, if they had had their appropriate policy frameworks in place about issues, resolution, and risk management, perhaps it wouldn't have even got to that point. They might've heard the murmurings earlier and started to prepare a response. They didn't come up with any strategic way of addressing the issue for the public. There was no consistency of key messaging. It was every man or woman for themselves. And they really lost sight of that collectively, they were responsible to Australia Post. Cameron Allen: It became more of an internal feud, didn't it? And if that relationship breaks down between the director and the CEO, you've got a bit of a problem, don't you? Because they're two significant individuals in terms of the running of an organisation. Dr Katrena Stephenson: It's a really symbiotic relationship. I have a lot of experience in local government and it's not dissimilar between a mayor and a general manager. And if that is not a professional, transparent relationship, it really does undermine both the operational and strategic outcomes. It just makes it difficult to function as a harmonious organisation. So they're very pivotal roles. While the chair is one among equals or however the saying goes, they do have those extra responsibilities around relationships, about representing the organisation and the business of the board. So when something is going pear shaped, they should be driving the board's reactions, the board's decision-making processes, and ensuring that accountability of the board.
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Cameron Allen: That's great there, Katrena. It's good to touch on some of those elements of what was a very big case and one that can be a little bit hard to get your head around. But let's put ourselves in the shoes of someone who's perhaps looking to join a board. What's one of the first things you should do, ideally before you're putting your application, to understand what your role is? Dr Katrena Stephenson: I think it's so important that you do your due diligence and really understand what you're taking on. There's a lot of resources easily available at our fingertips now on the web. So annual reports, media statements, news reports as well. So, you can get an idea if there's any issues of misfunction. You can get the vision statements, the strategic plans and really understand is this board is for you. Is there an alignment with your values with your skillset? Are you going to be able to make a difference? I think the other thing is, it's important to speak to people. And in Tasmania, we do note that works well. Have a chat with the CEO of the organisation. Have a chat with the chair. Speak to current and past directors. Build your understanding of what it is their focus is, what skills gaps they have on the board, what you could bring, because that'll also help you in any application process. Can you commit the time? I think that's something that people often underestimate when they first put the hand up to go on a board. Do you actually have the time to do the job properly? Do your homework about your legal liabilities. A lot of us start on not-for-profit boards as volunteers and our legal liabilities are still there, the same with a paid board member. So, it's important that you're aware of that and you're prepared to take that on. Cameron Allen: Putting ourselves now in the mind of the organisation, is there things an organisation can do during the hiring phase, and when they're putting out the role to tender, to ensure the roles and responsibilities are clear in terms of who they're going to be taking on board? Dr Katrena Stephenson: There's lots that organisations can do and should do, and they should be part of their overarching package of governance documentation. So, there should be a clear and regularly reviewed set of governance documents. So, a constitution or a charter, a strategic plan, an annual plan, a long-term financial plan, policy manuals — you would hope to see all those things. The ones that sometimes get missed, which I think important are things like your risk register and your delegations register (and we can talk about delegations later). Cameron Allen: And are these things you'd seek out before applying to be on a board, Katrena? Dr Katrena Stephenson: Most of those should be publicly available documents. And I certainly would encourage that people do have a look because it starts to give you an indication of how far advanced the board is in their governance work, how strategic they are in their thinking, where the risks might be as a new board TMTYB S01E09 Roles and Responsibilities Transcript by Rev.com
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member. And I think the other thing that organisations need to do for board members coming in, particularly brand new board members, is be very clear on the difference between the strategic and governance work of the board and the operational day-to-day work of the staff. And they could do that by, for example, being quite explicit through a letter of engagement, and a lot of boards will do that. [The letter of engagement states] the responsibilities of a general board member and the responsibilities of the office bearers. Alternatively, it might be embedded in their constitution or their policy frameworks. So, I think it is incumbent on organisations to help new board members understand the reach of their role. Cameron Allen: Because that appropriate separation and maintaining that is important, isn't it? In terms of the oversight of the organisation. Dr Katrena Stephenson: Yeah, it can become very tricky if you're volunteering for a very small organisation with minimal staff. I've had experience of that myself. And in fact, if the board don't get operational probably things would have fallen in a heap. And in that scenario, the board has to be aware of that, make conscious decisions, make sure that people understand. The board members understand how far they can go in that regard and be transparent about that decision-making, but generally operations are for staff and it's the staff that implement the strategic decisions of the board — and that's the flow. So, the board make the decisions and the CEO and the staff implement them. Cameron Allen: And that communication link, I guess, between the organisation and the board is the CEO traditionally? Dr Katrena Stephenson: Yeah, the CEO and the chair are the key liaison points between the staff of the organisation and the board generally. In most cases, the CEO will attend board meetings, and that's perfect, but there should be time for boards to have board only time as well. And I think those in-camera sessions are really important and that CEOs shouldn't be threatened or feel vulnerable because of that. I think it's just good practice for a board to have an opportunity to speak frankly. But then for most of the meeting, it's very useful to have that advice on tap. Cameron Allen: That's a great point Katrena and covers off on all those different elements of doing your due diligence before you join a board. And indeed, when you're stepping into these important roles. And a lot in our sector, as you'd mentioned, don't remunerate board members, but the responsibilities and the legal duties are still the same. How do directors understand and meet those responsibilities once they've taken on her role, including some of those legal duties you touched on? There's a lot to touch up on here, but what are some of the non-negotiables do you think? Dr Katrena Stephenson:
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I think when you accept a role as a board member or a director, you are implicitly agreeing to undertake the required learning, to develop your understanding, to take questions, to take advice and to be an active contributor to the board, not to be passive and sit back quietly. And I think sometimes we can be reluctant to ask questions for fear of looking foolish or exposing that we have a skills gap. But, if you hold back, you're actually failing in your duty more than if you ask the question and acknowledge that you have a need to fill a particular skills gap or knowledge gap. So, I think my big advice, particularly for new board members, is don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't be afraid to look stupid. Be prepared to learn. Be prepared to ask what it is that the non-negotiables. You've got experienced board members around you. You've got a chair and you've usually got a CEO that's quite knowledgeable around that too. Take all the advice you can from them. And all boards should be evaluating themselves anyway. So, there should be a process of evaluating, how are we traveling as a board? How did this meeting go? Where are our gaps? And a lot of boards have a skills matrix or similar from which they develop a professional development plan for board members. And there's lots of good opportunities to improve your governance skills. TasCOSS does governance training. We've got the AICD and there is training available online. There's plenty of ways that you can enhance your knowledge. But collectively the board should be saying, "have we got all the skills that we need? Does everyone have the same level of understanding? And how can we support those board members who we need to lift up their capacity or their knowledge?" Cameron Allen: Great. Have you seen this work in practice? Have you seen this be successful? How has it been modelled? Dr Katrena Stephenson: The AICD State Council, which I'm on, has a skills matrix. It's a volunteer role, but part of our opportunities as a state counselor is to engage in AICD events and training. The AICD generally has a requirement for members to keep up their CPD points. So that's a commitment for all members, many of whom are directors or aspiring directors, to continue their learning and build their experience. In my experience in local government, after an election, we would do a collective training of new councillors who function very similar to other boards and to ensure that they understood their obligations under the Local Government Act and other important pieces of legislation. But also how to function well together to chair meetings, to be able to raise issues in a non-fraught way, codes of conduct and so on. So, all of those things are quite familiar to well-functioning boards. Cameron Allen: And it's important to embed those early I'd imagine, as you mentioned new councillors coming on, you get them then and there and drum that into them. Dr Katrena Stephenson: It's a continuous learning curve. There are some things that you will need to know straight away when you start on a board and they're often very specific to the organisation. A one-off hit is never going to be enough. And that's, I think I said before, about a continuous learning commitment because organisations change and legislation changes. So, the board should be making it a regular practice to evaluate how they're functioning and where their risks are and then building capacity related to those. TMTYB S01E09 Roles and Responsibilities Transcript by Rev.com
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Cameron Allen: It's a good link in there to my next question, Katrena, which is about recording and reviewing these kinds of things. You talked about risk registries, should the delegations of the board’s authority be regularly reviewed and recorded? And I'm assuming the answer to this is probably yes, but if so, what needs to be considered and why is it so important? Dr Katrena Stephenson: Yeah, I think instruments of delegation are a really important governance tool and they should be available broadly and they should be regularly reviewed. Because it provides the opportunity to reflect on has the legislation changed? Has the organisation's purpose changed? Have our policies changed? Have our staff changed? Have we restructured? Are the delegations still right and appropriate? And it's important that your delegations remain fit for purpose so that you actually are delivering. I think an important thing to remember about delegations is that it doesn't mean the board has handed over responsibility. So, a delegations framework without the oversight or consideration of a risk register or similar is going to lead to problems. It doesn't mean it's totally hands off. It just means the day-to-day decisions can be made, but the board really does have an obligation still. And if things turn pear shaped, it will be the board that's accountable. You just cannot hand over that responsibility. It's important that every organisation, every board has a framework to help them decide what decisions can be delegated. And the right framework means that you get good outcomes, good performance and also good governance. But the wrong one can mean unfettered control and risks, reputational and financial damage to the organisation. And that's why that ongoing oversight is going to be really important. Cameron Allen: Look, we talked a bit about earlier on about the pitfalls of when some of these things go a little bit awry, let's say through the Australia Post example what happens when there isn't that appropriate separation, when accountability isn't taken and when the board don't take ultimate responsibility. So, let's put a little bit of a hypothetical out there. Let's say a board director oversteps, as we saw perhaps in this example, and what I mean by that is when an individual operates outside of their roles and responsibilities. How can the organisation take steps then to ensure directors meet the expectations of their role and understand what is required of them? And as we touched on before, the importance of that clearly defined separation. Dr Katrena Stephenson: Yeah, this is a tricky one and it probably brings in some of the themes that we've already talked about. So we talked about the operational strategic divide and I think that's the starting point for the appropriate separation of roles. So, the board should be focussed on strategy and governance and have that long-term view of risk and finance. And then it's the job of the CEO or equivalent to implement those decisions. But the board then must be monitoring and reviewing the outcomes, reviewing the finances, regularly checking that the organisation's compliant and looking at their risk profile and other risks being adequately managed. We talked earlier about that. That can be a challenge for boards of very small organisations. And in those situations where really the work can't be undertaken by employeed staff, because they simply might not exist or not in sufficient numbers, then the chair becomes very
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important in terms of ensuring the business of the board and the clear thinking around how far should we step. We talked before about how it can be challenging for small organisations to have that separation of roles and responsibilities. And this is where I think the chair is really important because they're responsible for ensuring the business of the board, the effective functioning of the board. So, there's a bit of extra responsibility on them to think through the implications when board members are entering into that operational territory, to ensure that limits are set, to help the board determine where they might need to bring in operational assistance, and to have a regular evaluation of their effectiveness, given that dual role in that case. While it's a little bit separate from this question, but while I'm on the role with chairs, the chair doesn't have any additional voting power. The chair can't veto decisions or make decisions outside of the board environment, not unless there's a clear delegation. As I said before, like mayors, they're first among equals. So, everyone has a vote. But that active role in managing the business of the board and representing the organisation and linking the board with the CEO and the operational side of the organisation is why when there are payments. Chairs often get paid more because they're taking on that extra duty and responsibility, and it's a really important role. So even on a volunteer board, making sure that your chair has that right skillset to be able to do that is so important. And so whether it's around the table election of a chair or the members electing the chair, it is really important that they consider those skills. Because that is going to help in these instances where it's very blurry between operational and strategic, where those roles and responsibilities aren't as clear cut as we would prefer. Cameron Allen: Yeah, because those frank conversations have to be had at a point, don't they, if there is something which is going awry? Dr Katrena Stephenson: Yes, that's right. And I think the other important thing in thinking about roles and responsibilities, a really critical role of the board is the appointment of the CEO. The board should have a good sound decision-making framework about what they need in a CEO. They should remain invested in the accountability of the CEO. Again, it's not saying, "okay, we've delegated that, off you go CEO" and never checking-in and making sure they're achieving what they need to. And it shouldn't come down to an annual performance review either. We all know that best practice now is that we have critical conversations along the way. And the board, through the chair, should be engaging the CEO in a regular constant way. Understanding where the issues are, raising any concerns that the board have about things that might not be being addressed as they would like and doing that early. So again, it points to that important relationship and role of the chair. Cameron Allen: We talked a little bit about boards taking ownership and responsibility — and on the flip side, not. Is there some examples you could provide of where this worked and where perhaps it didn't go quite so well? Dr Katrena Stephenson:
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Yes. I do have a couple of handy examples Cameron, and they're quite good at contrasting. So, my personal view is that the board is ultimately accountable. And I think legislatively they're ultimately accountable, but not all board directors see it the same way. So, one of the big cases in the media in the last while has been the board of Crown, and there has been accusations and exposés around money laundering and links to organised crime. And the reaction of that board was to take out full-page advertising and newspapers to deny all the allegations. So ultimately the directors failed to identify and manage wrongdoings but didn't want to wear that. So, a real failure of governance. In contrast, the chair of Rio Tinto, and everyone's aware of the terrible destruction of Aboriginal heritage by Rio Tinto, but that chair did take responsibility for those actions. And in fact, I've got a great quote from him. He said, "Rio Tinto's achievements were overshadowed by the destruction of the sacred Aboriginal site. As chairman, I'm ultimately accountable for the failing that led to this tragic event." So, he fell on his sword. He took the appropriate responsibility and recognised that their governance had failed. So, they're just such good contrasting examples. Now, how you get to that point where you might be able to recognise that you've failed as a board, one of the tools that is commonly used that I like is a code of conduct, but not just a document that sits on a shelf. You've really got to work as a board in developing your code of conduct so everyone has a common understanding of how they think they want to perform as a board, where the ethical lines are for them. I think they do help if you have those conversations to have quite a high functioning board, a good communicating board. So, they're an excellent tool for building that common standard through engagement, but not if it's just a pluck it off the shelf, never really discuss it type of code of conduct. So, it's one mechanism. Another measure that might help the board actually understand where they've failed is having a board issue identification register, a process for managing issues that everyone understands and regular risk reviews. They might have external monitoring, an audit panel or similar. And they probably have some sort of framework for dealing with complaints or conflict. And all of those things would help prevent that situation where they've clearly failed but can't see that they failed. Cameron Allen: They’ve got the blinkers on. That's a common thread I'm getting through some of your answers is it's not a one and done, is it? It's not when you join a board or when you appoint a CEO. It's that constant communication, building on that, embedding good practice and good governance principles along the journey. And just checking-in, as you said, just to make sure this is in place as it should be. Dr Katrena Stephenson: I think you're right, Cameron. We talked earlier and I said, one of the due diligence things that you need to do when you're thinking about joining a board is to think about what amount of time you might give. And I think it's important that people understand a board is more than the monthly meeting or the bimonthly meeting. That there does have to be this sort of engagement along the way. It might be quite light depending on the nature of the organisation or your role on the board. If an organisation is going through a big change pathway or a crisis, then I would anticipate there might be more meetings for the board or more emails to the board, more questions from the board. So, really be aware that when you're committing to a board, it's not just for the meeting. Cameron Allen: TMTYB S01E09 Roles and Responsibilities Transcript by Rev.com
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Great note to end on there, Katrena. But before we do go, a question we have been asking regularly here on this show which you're very well-placed to speak about this having been on a diverse array of boards. Is there any tips and tricks you'd like to share with aspiring board members out there? Dr Katrena Stephenson: Look, they're pretty simple. Don't be afraid to look stupid. Ask questions and be prepared to learn. Think about your ability to commit the time and the effort required to the board. Do your homework before you join. Make sure you understand what the organisation is about, what the board's role is and is it a good fit for you. If you observe a good director, think about asking them to mentor you. And check-in with yourself and others. How am I going? What do I need to develop? Am I a good contributor? And do I have a solid understanding of my role? So, some are before and some are during. So pretty simple, quite common sense, but important. Cameron Allen: Great note to end on there. So, have a crack but make sure you do your homework first. Thanks so much for coming on the show Katrena and I really appreciate your insights around this important principle. And indeed, I hope a lot of people listening can take some of that back to their own organisations. Dr Katrena Stephenson: Thanks very much, Cameron. Cameron Allen: Appreciate it. Bridget Delaney: Thank you Katrena for going through all of those intricacies with that example and for outlining how our roles and responsibilities are so important as board members. I really resonated with taking the responsibility for continuous learning as a board member and taking that responsibility on myself. And as a board as a whole, I think it's really important that we are active and engaged in the process of being board members and ensuring that we're not passive members around the table. So just a few things to consider before joining a board as new and aspiring board members and some things to ask yourself. Do you understand the responsibilities of the role that you're taking on? And that includes the legal duties. Are you prepared to dedicate the time and energy to perform this role in the way it's required? And do you have the skills and experience to discharge the responsibilities of the directorship? As well as, are you going to be brave enough to ask those questions when you don't know? So, I think that's probably us for today. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Cam for your wonderful interview. Cameron Allen: A pleasure. Bridget Delaney: TMTYB S01E09 Roles and Responsibilities Transcript by Rev.com
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And we look forward to the next time when you take us to your board. Take Me To Your Board is produced by our Ikin Media for the Tasmanian Council of Social Service. It's presented by Bridget Delaney and Cameron Allen. Music from Tide Electric. With special thanks to our guest, Katrena Stephenson. Thanks for listening to Take Me To Your Board. Please subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts and remember to tell a friend.
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