Professional Leader Magazine Issue 12: The Richard Denny Interview

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CAREER PROFILE

NICHOLAS C. HILL &

MASTER COACH TRAINER OF SALES, LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT STRATEGY

Nicholas C. Hill FCMI FIoL FIC is a veteran designer and trainer of 27 two-day ILM-recognised training courses in leadership and management and six in sales and customer service. He specialises in end-to-end original design and delivery of results-driven instructor-led programmes. Training is classroom-based, via live video conferencing or blended learning. Since 1996, Nicholas has delivered training for thousands of delegates from corporations and SMEs in over 300 industries as well as government and non-profit, improving productivity by an average of 104%, net profit by 26%, and achieving a 4.8-star rating from 2638 online reviews.

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DATES: 2004 - PRESENT DAY

POSITION: Managing Director

• Sales and Customer Service Training

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Nicholas designs and delivers leadership, management, and sales courses for cohorts averaging twelve delegates. Most courses are 14 CPD hours spread over two days. He generates and manages hundreds of satisfied clients which include ABN AMRO Bank, Anglian Water, Ardagh Group, Bank of Ghana, Britannia Movers International, BUPA, Chartered Institute of Payroll Professionals, Chubb Insurance, Church of England, Cobham Plc, Cobra Group, Domino Printing, Estée Lauder, EJ Group Inc, EY (Ernst & Young LLP), Hadley Group, Hasbro Inc, Herbert Smith Freehills LLP, Hughes TV and Audio Ltd, Laing O’Rourke Plc, Legal and General Plc, LISI Aerospace, Medivet, Masco UK Window Group, Neal and Massy, NHS, P&O Ferries, Oxford University Press, Playson Ltd, Premium Credit Ltd, Reed Recruitment Plc, Suez, Success Resources, University of Glasgow, University of the West of England, Voyage Care Ltd, Young Presidents’ Organization, and many more.

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• Improved net profit by 26% for Medivet (Stocton). I improved sales by 37% and productivity by 104% for Vimer UK Ltd.

• Improved performance by 44%, productivity by 29%, and efficiency by 19% for Magenta Living Housing Association.

• Interviewed many celebrity leaders for our company magazine, including Ken Blanchard, Nick Vujicic, Erin Brockovich, Robert Kiyosaki, and Richard Denny.

• Achieved a 4.8-star rating from 2638 reviews on FindCourses.co.uk since 2012.

Contact Nicholas with your enquiries today: hello@nicholashill.com

MASTER COACH TRAINER OF SALES, LEADERSHIP & MANAGEMENT STRATEGY

NICHOLAS C. HILL

FCMI • FIoL • FIC

Welcome to Issue 12 of Professional Leader™

Still relevant today, we proudly present the previously unreleased, clean-verbatim, and unabridged version of my exclusive 2014 interview with Richard Denny to celebrate its tenth anniversary. Previously only published in part and as a paraphrase, this conversation is now available to you in its original form. Richard sadly passed away from cancer on November 16, 2016, aged 76, just two years after this interview. It is believed to be his last.

Richard Denny, a master of business growth strategies, left an indelible mark on countless individuals, inspiring them through his seminars and books. His bestselling works, which served as trusted companions for millions, not only drove organisational growth but also ignited profound personal transformations. His presentations were not just educational, but also deeply motivating and inspiring.

His most renowned book, Selling to Win, published in 1988, topped the list of best-selling books on sales skills for fourteen consecutive months and is now available in twenty-eight different languages in over forty countries. Richard Denny’s second book, Motivate to Win, gained a similar response and made it to the list of best sellers yet again. Denny’s demand increased worldwide as he created more video and audio training programmes to train businesspeople on leadership, management, customer service, and sales skills.

More books followed, all becoming international bestsellers. He was CEO of Denny Publishing, Richard Denny Global, and Denny Training. Furthermore, he regularly appeared on television and radio.

Denny’s audience rated him as a gifted communicator who spoke common sense. His presentations contained many exciting anecdotes and humour, making them a fun and educational package that could be used to leverage business performance.

In this issue of Professional Leader Magazine, Richard Denny and I explore the keys to successful selling, sales management, and customer service. Enjoy reading!

Yours, Nicholas

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C. Hill Interviews

Nicholas Hill Interviews

Richard Denny

IF YOU’RE GOING TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY, YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THE SALES PROCESS, THE PSYCHOLOGY, AND HOW TO BE A SUCCESSFUL SELLER.

The Prerequisites of Successful Salespeople looks at the fundamentals of selling, including attitude and philosophy.

Nicholas Hill

Richard Denny, having you with us today is an absolute pleasure. Welcome.

Richard Denny

Thank you, Nicholas. I’m looking forward to our discussion.

Nicholas Hill

The Birmingham Post once called you ‘The Millionaire Maker’. Why did they give you this title?

Richard Denny

I am not sure. But presumably, it’s because millions of people have read

my books, and then some have spread the word that they have achieved significant results from my work. After being associated with me, several thousand people have made the proverbial million. So it’s a great honour, and I humbly accept the title.

Nicholas Hill

Please tell us more about the people who made millions from your ideas.

Richard Denny

Well, it’s a whole crosssection of people. Most wanted to sell a product or service or had an entrepreneurial idea. And let’s be realistic. If you’re going to make a lot of money, you must understand the sales process, the psychology, and how to be a successful seller.

WE SHOULD BE SELLING A PRODUCT OR SERVICE THAT IS RIGHT FOR THE CUSTOMER

Nicholas Hill

Okay, so what makes a successful seller?

Richard Denny

It’s a whole range of skills and techniques. But above all, to sell well, you must believe in your product or service. There’s an old saying— anybody can sell anything. I don’t think that products sell themselves. You must believe in your product or service to generate returns and create a bond between the seller and your customer.

AFTER BEING ASSOCIATED WITH ME, SEVERAL THOUSAND PEOPLE HAVE MADE THE PROVERBIAL MILLION.

Nicholas Hill

Okay. So, with your extensive experience, Richard, let's explore how you do that. How do you create that bond between you and the customer?

Richard Denny

The most significant skill is developing trust. In today’s marketplace, we should be selling a product or service that is right for the customer— we’re looking at it from their point of view and giving the best possible advice. It’s more of a consultancy process than

‘let’s make the sale, move on, and we’ll never see you again’.

Nicholas Hill

I agree. Mack Hanan coined the term ‘consultative selling’ in 1970, yet it was many years before it took root. Only in the last twenty years has it become more popular. As you will know, Neil Rackham took it to the next level with SPIN selling in 1988. Richard, please tell us about your philosophy on consultative selling. Let us start with how you might identify the needs.

Richard Denny

Okay. In today’s marketplace, we are selling on the telephone or face-to-face. We are speaking to that person, which differs from prospecting and marketing.

Identifying the needs involves the fundamentals of good modern professional selling, which is not a telling process. It’s an asking process. It’s finding out exactly what your client needs and wants, what their problems are, and what situation they’re in. The role of the seller is to provide a solution. So, one of my expressions is that a good salesperson is a solution provider. So, Nicholas, it is asking the right questions to dig deep, to find out more, rather than just selling what you want to sell. If we build a long-term relationship, and we’re going to have trust, I must find out where my product or my service can best support the customer.

Nicholas Hill

Absolutely. It's necessary to point out that the word ‘solution’ has the inherent presupposition that there is a problem. We are selling solutions to problems. However, the word is overused today. You only have to search Companies House to find thousands of businesses using this word in their company name! As you say, salespeople use the word when selling. In fact, solution development is the stage we move to after first identifying the needs. So, what’s your response to that?

Richard Denny

Well, that's right. Of course,

that’s what selling is all about. For the product or service to have value, it must solve a particular problem. For example, the buyer in a manufacturing company needs steel bolts to make a product. There is a problem, and they need something to satisfy that requirement. It may be the person who goes shopping and wants to buy

some whiskey.

Nicholas Hill

Now, this person definitely has a problem! (Laughs).

Richard Denny (Laughs). Now, they may not need whiskey at this time of the year. Perhaps they want some whiskey because they like to have some in the home

THE ROLE OF THE SELLER IS TO PROVIDE A SOLUTION. SO, ONE OF MY EXPRESSIONS IS THAT A GOOD SALESPERSON IS A SOLUTION PROVIDER.

for guests who pop in for a drink. So, we must check what sort of whiskey they want. Do they want a malt or a bourbon?

Nicholas Hill

Absolutely. Sell the customer what they want or need and not just the nearest product on the shelf. 

Become a successful salesperson today with Hill Training Ltd.

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Continued on page 26

IDENTIFYING THE NEEDS INVOLVES THE FUNDAMENTALS OF GOOD MODERN PROFESSIONAL SELLING.

FOR THE PRODUCT OR SERVICE TO HAVE VALUE, IT MUST SOLVE A PARTICULAR PROBLEM.

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MARKETPLACE THE Nicholas Hill Interviews Richard Denny

Continued from page 19

PEOPLE DON’T SPEND MONEY ON WHAT THEY NEED. THEY MOSTLY SPEND MONEY ON WHAT THEY WANT.

Testing the Marketplace reveals the faults and failures of businesses that launch products without first identifying gaps in the market.

Nicholas Hill

Let’s now look at business success and failure. According to entrepreneur Theo Paphitis, 50% of all small businesses fail in the first few years. Now, this is a frightening statistic. So, Richard, I’m keen to know, from your extensive experience, why you think this.

Richard Denny

What he says is correct. I worked for some years with the Prince’s Trust, setting up young people in business, and they have a higher success rate with business start-ups than the banks. Let me tell you, the biggest reason is that the entrepreneur falls in love with their product or service, and they concentrate on what I call a ‘need market’ as opposed to a ‘want market’.

Nicholas Hill

Right. Know the difference between customer needs and wants. Moreover, don’t fall in love with your product. Instead, fall in love with your customers. Become

THEY

CONCENTRATE ON WHAT I CALL A ‘NEED MARKET’ AS OPPOSED TO A ‘WANT MARKET’.

passionate about meeting their requirements and seeing them benefit from your service. Tell us more about needs versus wants.

Richard Denny

People say there is a need for this. People don’t spend money on what they need. They mostly spend money on what they want. They buy on price when they

must spend money on what they need. Let’s take motor car insurance. Third-party insurance is the minimum you need to have your motor car on the road and be within the law. It’s a needed product, and we fight over price. We don’t love it. We don’t like it. We need it. And so, we look to get the cheapest possible. So, the most significant cause here is people being in love

with their idea and not testing to see precisely whether people will buy that product or service. Do they actually want it?

Nicholas Hill

Right. Testing the market is imperative to determine whether people will buy. Just because you or I love the product or a handful of people have bought it does not mean it will fill a gap in the market.

Richard Denny

Even more importantly, and perhaps this bleeds into the primary cause of failure, is

people’s inability to sell their products or services. They love producing, making, and being in love with the idea. But they are terrified of the sales process. And this word selling becomes a dirty word. They sit and look at the phone and hope it will ring. They get up early and switch on the computer to see how many orders are coming through instead of getting out there selling and marketing.

Nicholas Hill

Right. While sales skills are an art, sales confidence is an asset. The former can be learned in a course, while the latter develops by

THEY SIT AND LOOK AT THE PHONE AND HOPE IT WILL RING. THE DRAGONS WILL ASK HOW MANY UNITS YOU SOLD. WHAT IS YOUR POSITION TO DATE?

demonstrating competence. That said, we still need to test the product before selling it. So, what testing process do you advocate? Also, how do we know if the market needs or wants what you’re offering?

Richard Denny

You must go out and talk to people, ask them, and get their opinions, not just that of family or friends. Make some sales and get a little bit of revenue in. Watch Dragons

Den: the Dragons will ask how many units you sold. What is your position to date? They’re not interested if there have been no sales unless it is an exceptional idea or has the

Deborah Meaden Entrepreneur and star of the TV show Dragons' Den

‘want appeal’.

Nicholas Hill

Okay. Without making sales in your testing process, how do you know whether the audience you are questioning tells you fact or fiction while conducting your research?

Richard Denny

You and I know, Nicholas, if the people we speak to have been around the block a bit, whether they are telling us rubbish or whether people

are telling us the truth. We read their body language and can judge very quickly. When asked, shown, or demonstrated a product, most people will genuinely say yes, they like or want it. We’re not asking for their opinion. We’re asking if they would buy this product. So, we’re talking to the actual market - the people in the market. You must speak to the potential customer and ask them if they would like to buy it. Is this something they will exchange cash for

WHEN ASKED, SHOWN, OR DEMONSTRATED A PRODUCT, MOST PEOPLE WILL GENUINELY SAY YES, THEY LIKE OR WANT IT.

YOU MUST SPEAK TO THE POTENTIAL CUSTOMER AND ASK THEM IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO BUY IT.

THE PERSON YOU SPEAK TO MUST BE THE BUYER, BUT WHO IS THE DECISION MAKER?

or spend on their credit card? So, I must be clear. Don’t go for opinions. Go for the actual test.

Nicholas Hill

So, if I understand you correctly, you can perform a market test by showing prospective customers the product and asking them if they would buy it if they were in the market. There is still a chance they will tell us what we want to hear, not the truth. I’m sure you agree that the real test you are referring to is receiving cleared funds from selling a new product. Otherwise, the customer makes no commitment and states an off-the-cuff opinion. However, we need to test in small batches and with limited cost investment in the prototype or we cannot sustain the losses.

Richard Denny

Yes. You might have a prototype. You can now talk business with the potential customer. Let’s say you have a prototype for a new vacuum cleaner. The person you speak to must be the buyer, but who is the decision maker? Is the majority male or female? Is it a 30-year-old? Is it a 20-yearold? Is it a 70-year-old? I don’t know. I am not in the vacuum cleaner business. But if I were doing my test, I would find out who buys vacuum cleaners to get an unmistakable picture of my potential customers. To test, I would let them see it and try it out. Then I would ask them, “If this product was available, would you pay £200, £300, or £400?

Nicholas Hill

So, when testing the market,

speaking to the right prospective customer can be likened to selling to the decision-maker instead of the gatekeeper. We need to make sure we are talking to the right person. Of course, without any money down, the prospective customer is still

DON’T GO FOR OPINIONS. GO FOR THE ACTUAL TEST.

only expressing an opinion. They would have to be in the market to buy there and then. However, if they did buy, that would be a demonstration enough that the product is valued at the negotiated price, at least for that individual. At this test stage, there’s not much data to go on, Richard, but I agree, it’s a start.

Richard Denny

Correct. Many years ago, a friend of mine started direct selling. He sold sewing machines—we’re going back to the 1950s. He went door to door, trying to drum up sales. He would go to a new town

he had a second-hand vacuum cleaner for sale alongside the new ones! It’s an excellent strategy to attract an audience at the lower end of your range so the price point does not put them off. However, they are more likely to invest once they realise the benefits. Advertisers do this globally today, using text such as ‘prices from’ or ‘from just £199’. If it is a car advertised on HP from £199 pm, be sure to add on interest, payment protection, deposits, redemption penalties, and any supplements. The low price point is the attraction that gets customers

IT’S EASY TO SELL A NEW ONE WHEN YOU KNOW SOMEBODY IS LOOKING FOR A SECOND-HAND ONE.

and advertise in the local newspaper reading, ‘SecondHand, Sewing Machine for Sale’, using a PO Box address. Later, he would go to the post office, pick up all the replies to his advertisement, and then call on the people. It’s easy to sell a new one when you know somebody is looking for a second-hand one. You upsell. He was the most outstanding salesperson in his company because he identified the customers first and targeted them rather than just the door-to-door approach.

Nicholas Hill

Interesting. Of course, this would be regarded as false advertising nowadays unless

considering the purchase. If we don’t use this tactic, the sale goes to the competition using it. 

Develop your sales potential today with Hill Training Ltd.

Book your FREE 30 minutes diagnostic consultation with Nicholas C. Hill. Quote ‘Professional Leader’ to redeem your booking.

Contact us now: hello@nicholashill.com +44 (0)345 678 9900 nicholashill.com

Continued on page 38

SELLING TO PEOPLE

WIN Friends&INFLUENCE

AT THE AGE OF 33, I WAS DRIVING MY FIRST ROLLSROYCE. I HAD A BEAUTIFUL MANOR HOUSE IN BEDFORDSHIRE.

Continued from page 31

Selling to Win Friends and Influence People goes back in time to when Richard was inspired to write his bestselling book.

Nicholas Hill

Let’s now turn our attention to your book, Selling to Win. It sold over three million copies in 1988. What made the book so successful at the time?

Richard Denny

The book is still in print. It’s in its 21st-anniversary edition, which came out last year.

There are many stories of people who bought the book in their early years and made their fortunes. So, it is still around. Let me give you the background to that. I had no right to write a book on selling if I had just suddenly set out to do so. It didn’t happen like that. I’d been selling for many years and went from being a young man in agriculture to having a sales force of around 2000 people in my early thirties. At the age of 33, I was driving my first Rolls-Royce. I had a beautiful manor house in Bedfordshire. I might add four sons to that list! Yet,

Nicholas Hill Interviews Richard Denny

two and a half years later, I was driving a second-hand Cortina. I learned very quickly to be nice to people on the way up because you meet the same ones on the way back down again. So, my road has been up, down and topsyturvy over the years.

theme has always been a combination of skills, attitude, and positive thinking. That is the recipe for dynamic and outstanding success. So, I built up a reputation for speaking worldwide on business and selling. Then, my publisher approached me and advised that I write

Nicholas Hill

So, you suffered huge losses, which many of your followers will not be aware of. Where did you go from there?

Richard Denny

I then went on to speak worldwide on selling, leadership, and entrepreneurship; my

a book on selling, for which I was entirely unqualified. I eventually got around to doing it, but how I did it— that’s another story. My point here is that if you write a book on selling or any book, you must have in your mind exactly who the reader is and who the book is for. I have a library. There are only two

BE NICE TO PEOPLE ON THE WAY UP BECAUSE YOU MEET THE SAME ONES ON THE WAY BACK DOWN

books in there that I have read from cover to cover. One was Dale Carnegie’s book How to Win Friends and Influence People, written in the 30s. I wanted to write a book like that.

the personal and professional development industry. Later, I had the privilege of becoming a Dale Carnegie trainer. So, I’m totally alongside you in that interest. Your book, Selling to Win, gives us a good

MY THEME HAS ALWAYS BEEN A COMBINATION OF SKILLS, ATTITUDE, AND POSITIVE THINKING.

Nicholas Hill

Wonderful. Dale Carnegie’s book also inspired me. This is the man who founded the human relations movement we know today. It was one of the books that, way back in the early 1990s, caused me to become very ambitious about

picture of Richard Denny. You write with feeling and personality, which is far removed from cold formality. People connected with you, the author, and still do since it is still in print.

Richard Denny

I wanted my book to be of

THERE ARE ONLY TWO BOOKS IN THERE THAT I HAVE READ FROM COVER TO COVER. ONE WAS DALE CARNEGIE’S BOOK HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE.

minute techniques that work in a new marketplace because it was different when I wrote it in India in 1988. In today's market, we’re competing with the Internet, and prices are much more to the fore than they were in those days.

Nicholas Hill

You mentioned wanting to write a book that wasn’t just theory. Instead, you wrote from the heart. So please share one or two golden nuggets from that book, Selling to Win

Richard Denny

Little golden nuggets would include how you behave when you go to reception. One of the things I learned then is that if you’ve got a meeting, you’ve worked hard to get the meeting. Prospecting is one of the toughest jobs that

WHEN I WROTE IT, I WROTE FROM THE HEART.

benefit. People have told me that the only people who make money from business books are those who print and publish them. I thought it would be sad if I couldn’t profit from my book. I wanted the reader to achieve great success from it. So, when I wrote it, I wrote from the heart. Nicholas, I tried to make it easy for the reader

to understand my ideas. I wanted short paragraphs so people could dip in and dip out. The day the book came out, it was a bestseller and is now available in 36 languages. It’s been reprinted and reprinted. It’s still alive today, and I hope it’ll continue to be in print while I’m alive. I will keep updating it, ensuring it’s fresh and offers right-to-the-

THE DAY THE BOOK CAME OUT, IT WAS A BESTSELLER AND IS NOW AVAILABLE IN 36 LANGUAGES.

any salesperson has to do. You’ll love the actual meeting, but we hate the prospecting bit. We get ourselves geared up. We go to the prospect’s offices, do our selling, and get an order. We go in all charged up and enthusiastic. I recommend never sitting in reception because reception chairs are low. The prospect looks down upon the people who sit there. Some of the salesperson’s enthusiasm then drains away. So always stand in the reception area. That’s a funny little tip I’ve always talked about.

Nicholas Hill

We’re now talking about sales psychology and how the salesperson's physiology will affect their mindset before they go into that meeting, influencing the entire sales process. They feel belittled just because they sit low down in a chair.

Richard Denny

Yes. If we listen to radio and TV these days, more and more, when you talk to the great sports coaches, they’re talking about psychology. We see an incredible level of skill in sports rising all I

IF THE ATTITUDE IS CORRECT, IT SEEMS TO GIVE THE SKILL A BETTER CHANCE OF FRUITION.

IT WAS HIS MINDSET THAT HELPED HIM TO DO IT.

the time. We recently saw young Hamilton become the world champion in Formula One. It was his mindset that helped him to do it. It is a mind game these days. If the attitude is correct, it seems to give the skill a better chance of fruition. So, we must understand that the same thing applies in a successful setting. You’re looking at the super salesperson, the man or woman who closes more deals than anybody else. What is the difference? It is very much the difference in one’s attitude.

Nicholas Hill

Okay, so from your

perspective, how do you personally, Richard Denny, develop the mindset you need to stay at the top?

Richard Denny

I always have goals and ambitions. I look forward to doing this or that, and even at my age, I accept that I want to improve. Every day, I look for a new idea or concept— something I can do differently to improve. Can I still change the way I behave, think, or speak? Absolutely. So, I live for today, but I’m excited about the future. The amount of time that I spend thinking about the past is minimal. The purpose of the past -

EVEN AT MY AGE, I ACCEPT THAT I WANT TO IMPROVE.

yesterday, last week, last month is so I can learn from it. But I can make today a little bit better. And, of course, you see, the other thing I am driven by is my extensive bucket list of things to do.

Nicholas Hill

Captivating goals certainly inspire and drive us forward. You mentioned your age, Richard. You are 74 years old, so for those younger than you, it is encouraging to hear you talk about setting goals.

Richard Denny

Yes, I’m 74. But as far as I’m concerned, that’s the new 54. (Laughs). 

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Continued on page 50

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THE ESSENCE OF SUCCESSFUL SALES MANAGEMENT

Continued from page 43

THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SALES TEAM AND A SALES FORCE.

The Essence of Sales Management shares the difference between a salesforce and a sales team.

Nicholas Hill

Let’s look at sales management for a moment. Managing all departments in an organisation is necessary, but I will play Devil’s Advocate here with this next question! Great salespeople are naturally self-motivated, so why do they need to be

managed, do you think?

Richard Denny

In my experience, great salespeople are the most difficult people in the world to manage. They have enormous egos because they bring in a lot of business. They think they’re better than anybody else. They are often tough to handle and usually do not follow the rules. From the boss’s point of view, we can’t do without them in many cases, and they know it. So they are difficult to handle.

Nicholas Hill Interviews Richard Denny

GREAT SALESPEOPLE ARE THE MOST DIFFICULT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD TO MANAGE.

Nicholas Hill

So, how do you address some of that problematic behaviour?

Richard Denny

This is where the skill of a good sales manager comes in. So, we want to draw the best out of everyone. The first thing we must understand in business is that there is a big difference between a sales team and a sales force.

And a lot of managers don’t seem to understand this. They talk about their sales team, yet they pay them individual commissions based on performance. Now, that is a sales force. A sales team is where people collectively benefit from each other’s performance. So, you must understand that the highfliers often perform better in a sales force environment than in the sales team environment.

Now, let’s take the example of football. You’ve outstanding players in some teams. And you’ve some who are incredibly selfish. To be a team player, they must benefit and support each other. Can you have talented individuals in a team? Yes, you can, but you must have a level playing field. You must create an environment whereby there’s recognition for the highflier - the man or woman who exceeds expectations and achieves more. You must make sure you can keep that person.

Nicholas Hill

How can you take the highflyer, often seen as the organisation's breadwinner, and inspire a team mindset they can embrace?

Richard Denny

That is the skill of an excellent

sales manager, as you see in the skill of a great football coach. First, the leader must have absolute, evident principles. Supposing your salesperson is not following the rules. The team knows the manager will correct the behaviour or fire that salesperson. Now, that takes courage and enormous risk.

Nicholas Hill

What do we say to the sales manager who disagrees with you and allows the salesperson to continue breaking the rules because they exceed their monthly sales targets?

Richard Denny

I would ask the sales manager, “What do you want in the long term?” Otherwise, this is short-termism. Think longterm. It also depends on what those rules are. They might be stupid rules, so good luck to the guy. Give them a break. I’m mainly talking about the sales highflier who may be closing deals dishonestly or making promises the company can’t commit to. That’s the area I’m talking about. It may bring in sales in the short term, but in the long term, it could have dire ramifications for the organisation as a whole.

THE TEAM KNOWS THE MANAGER WILL CORRECT THE BEHAVIOUR OR FIRE THAT SALESPERSON.

SOME SALES PEOPLE MAKE YOU BUY THINGS YOU DON’T WANT. BUT ETHICS, INTEGRITY, AND HONESTY ARE PARAMOUNT.

I AM A SALESMAN AND WANTED TO ENSURE THAT I BUILT ETHICAL PRINCIPLES INTO EVERYTHING I’VE DONE.

Nicholas Hill

So, we’re returning to the sales manager's need to operate based on principles. We are particularly referring to ethics in the case you described. The word ‘ethics’ is overused in business training, but it is a vital subject that cannot be overlooked. How would you define ethics from the perspective of the sales manager?

Richard Denny

Yes, I would endorse ethics and morals. Sales management is not just about motivation; it’s very much about leadership, and it’s working with the business to ensure that selling activity benefits the whole rather than just the few. When I first started selling, the profession had a terrible reputation. However, I have spent most of my life proud of the word ‘salesperson’. I am a salesman and wanted to ensure that I built ethical principles into everything I’ve done - books, seminars, training, speaking, and coaching. These principles include integrity and honesty because that’s where the future lies. That will give you a long-term career. Some salespeople make you buy things you don’t want. But ethics, integrity, and honesty are paramount. It’s much easier now to sell something and be honest than to tell a lie. When you tell a lie, you’ve got to remember what the lie is. It’s often more difficult to remember the lie than the truth.

Nicholas Hill

I agree with you. Lies build

IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT ANYBODY ELSE SAYS, THINKS, OR DOES. IT’S WHAT I DO THAT MATTERS.

on a foundation of lies and then spread webs. Start, and it's difficult to stop. Tell a lie often enough, and you begin to believe it yourself. Choose not to lie, and you will always default to the truth. Ethical leaders and salespeople must find ways to improve what’s true if it’s unacceptable. In other words, do not spin a yarn if your product is unsatisfactory. Instead, improve the product and satisfy customer needs. Richard, please share your business values that endorse these ethical standards.

Richard Denny

My values are pretty simple. I try not to overpromise. I think it’s essential that if I say I will phone somebody, I will call them. I'll always try to respond when people write to me, whoever they are. Yes, I’ve received many emails from people who’ve read my books, liked them, or wanted advice. I’ll always try to respond quickly. So, there are various principles I will follow when treating other people as I would like to be treated myself. I have a straightforward philosophy of life. It doesn’t matter what anybody else says, thinks, or does. It’s what I do that

matters. Five days a week, I send out a little thought for the day to several thousand people. I send this little line to start the day. It's just a little thought like, “Will we hug somebody today?” “How many people did we smile at today?” And I think all of this is part of the makeup of a good, successful salesperson. After all, you can impact other people’s lives if you sell the right product to the right person.

Nicholas Hill

Yes. This attitude is very much related to adopting a longterm sales perspective. Thank you again for sharing the value of ethics and integrity. I stand by what you just said.

Richard Denny

The other exciting thing is that we seldom lose the sale if we operate using these principles. We can lose sales orders for many reasons, but you are more likely to win that order if you operate using the techniques you and I share.

Nicholas Hill

Absolutely. Yet we do not espouse these principles only to close sales. We do it to build character and add value

WE SELDOM LOSE THE SALE IF WE OPERATE USING THESE PRINCIPLES.

to the lives of others. The most inexpensive marketing strategy is word of mouth. However, word of mouth will never transpire if we’ve sold unethically. So again, from the salesperson’s perspective, operating from an ethical standpoint is highly valuable to current or future sales. 

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Continued on page 60

HOW MANY PEOPLE DID WE SMILE AT TODAY?

I THINK IT’S ESSENTIAL THAT IF I SAY I WILL PHONE SOMEBODY, I WILL CALL THEM.

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SALESMANAGEMENT TURBULENT TIMES

Nicholas Hill Interviews Richard Denny TOSURVIVE

Continued from page 55

Okay. There is a change in WHAT MAKES THEM DECIDE TO BUY SOMETHING OR USE THEIR CREDIT CARD?

Sales Management to Survive

Turbulent Times acknowledges the shifts businesses must make as we compete in a global market.

Nicholas Hill

Richard, you mention how you receive so many emails daily. This turns our attention to how the selling profession is changing. Internet marketing has changed the business landscape globally. How has this change impacted how we sell?

Richard Denny

the marketplace because Internet marketing has taken a more significant role than selling. Marketing leads up to the sale, so it supports the sale. It’s the letter, brochure, advertising, public relations. Selling is persuasion and convincing people to make a decision. So, because of the Internet, is it selling that we’re doing, or is it marketing? It’s more marketing. That’s why it is essential for people doing marketing to understand what selling is. What is it that people want? What makes them decide to buy something or use their credit card?

THE OWNER OF THE SMALL BUSINESS IS ALSO THE SALES MANAGER.

Nicholas Hill

Right. This is why interdepartmental communication is vital. Knowing the purpose of each department is not enough. We need to understand its vision and mission. While it should—and I emphasise the word ‘should’—align with the organisation's vision and mission, it is only a subset and is trudging a complementary course of action. When we are blind to other departmental visions and missions, meeting the needs of internal clients is much more difficult or even impossible. The sales manager must know what path the marketing manager is on and vice versa. Then,

IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR PEOPLE DOING MARKETING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT SELLING IS.

they must communicate what they know to their teams. Therefore, both managers work in unison using Internet marketing to improve sales. Solving this internal problem leaves only the external problem of competition. Thus, how can the sales manager remain competitive in today's cutthroat global market?

Richard Denny

Okay. It starts with the sales manager. Many small businesses don’t employ a sales manager. The owner of the small business is also the sales manager. They’ve got to accept it, and there are too many small to medium-sized enterprises where the owner thinks their role is the boss, as opposed to understanding

WE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT ONLY 27% OF THE MARKETPLACE BUYS THE CHEAPEST.

that their prime function for the survival and future of the business is as the sales manager. Now, let’s look at one crucial aspect in today’s world - maximising the potential of the internet. We must understand that only 27% of the marketplace buys the cheapest. Yes, it is rising. But everybody thinks it’s all about price. Let’s take the grocery world, including the rise of the Lidls and the cutprice retailers—are they the biggest? No, they’re not. Is Tesco the biggest? Yes. Tesco is still the most significant, but they’re not the cheapest. They’ve lost some market

share, but they will fight back.

Nicholas Hill

Sure. Tesco has more financial muscle and will always find ways to compete with the smaller fish in the pond. However, if the competition becomes a problem for the big fish, this is where we see mergers and acquisitions. If it ever happens, it is more likely to be a buyout with the likes of Lidl, but who knows? Why do you think Lidl are doing so well?

Richard Denny

It’s not just about price; it’s about perceived value.

THE OWNER THINKS THEIR ROLE IS THE BOSS, AS OPPOSED TO UNDERSTANDING THAT THEIR PRIME FUNCTION FOR THE SURVIVAL AND FUTURE OF THE BUSINESS IS AS THE SALES MANAGER.

IF YOU SELL THE CHEAPEST PRODUCTS, IT MEANS THE MORE AFFORDABLE YOU WILL BE AND THE MORE LIKELY YOU’LL GO BUST.

ALDI AND LIDL ARE DOING WELL BECAUSE SOME OF THEIR PRODUCTS ARE RATED THE BEST.

Aldi and Lidl are doing well because some of their products are rated the best. Combine that with the low cost, and now you have the potential for market share growth. We’ve got to get businesses to understand that they must sell value today, not the cheapest product. If you sell the cheapest products, it means the more affordable you will be and the more likely you’ll go bust.

Nicholas Hill

Here lies the challenge. When looking at Lidl, Aldi, and Tesco, consumers don’t always compare apples with apples. Marketers might think shoppers will go to

Aldi if a known brand, like Heinz baked beans, sells for 59p at Tesco but only 49p at Aldi. However, we must also be mindful of the shoppers’ experience, which adds the value you are referring to. What does Tesco offer the shopper that Aldi cannot? It's this type of question that all business owners need to ask themselves.

Richard Denny

Absolutely. The cheapest product, for example, a car, is not the biggest seller; the most affordable lot of anything is not the biggest. People are looking for value. There is a marketplace for the cheapest, but you shouldn’t

always be the cheapest because you are more likely to go out of business. There just isn’t enough margin to keep you in business. It is a considerable risk when you are the cheapest in the marketplace, whether you’re a solicitor, an accountant, or a restaurateur. You need to be in the value-for-money market if you want long-term survival.

Nicholas Hill

I agree. You and I sell services, which are intangible products. Our reviews testify to the value we offer, but we still sell on perceived value. However, when selling baked beans, the customer knows what's in the tin by the label. So, when one is 10p cheaper, you compare apples for apples. Only after a customer

ONLY A TINY PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE KNOW THE PRICE OF BAKED BEANS.

has hired the service provider will they know what to expect in the future; until then, they buy from them on trust alone because they haven’t yet tasted the contents. The customer must believe that the metaphorical ‘tin’ contains contents that will meet their expectations. We will always have this problem when selling services to a new customer, so we sometimes provide free online ‘sample’ workshops so they can ‘taste’

the course before they buy! This situation is very different to a customer buying Heinz beans from Tesco and later from Lidl. Therefore, how important is price versus value?

Richard Denny

Only a tiny percentage of people know the price of baked beans. I’ve done this in my seminars for the last 20 years: I will ask the audience, can you tell me the cost of a

WE’RE SEEING A TREND AT THE MOMENT OF PEOPLE PERHAPS GOING INTO THE HIGH STREET STORE AND USING IT AS AN AMAZON SHOWROOM.

loaf of bread, a pint of milk and a tin of baked beans?

Approximately 30% of that audience will know the prices. So, these few people are buying on price. We think everybody knows our prices, but they don’t.

Nicholas Hill

When delivering sales training, I also sometimes ask my audience, “Look down at your shoes. Hands up if those were the cheapest shoes in the shop?” I only get a tiny percentage of hands raised, but then you must question the decision. So, what inspired you to buy those shoes from that shop? Was it the materials, the craftsmanship, the colour, the fit, or the label? Did you buy them from that shop because you couldn’t get them elsewhere? Perhaps they could have gone down the road and bought cheaper if the shoes were a known brand. Maybe they knew they

THIS PROBLEM IS SOLVED THROUGH SERVICE, AFTERSALES, AND DELIVERY.

could have saved £10 if they got in the car and drove down the road. But was it worth it? Perhaps they valued the journey time more than £10. I would! So I agree with youwe do not always buy based on price. People buy on value and sometimes convenience.

Richard Denny

You’re absolutely spot on. But let’s now look at biggerticket items like TVs, washing machines, and dishwashers. We’re seeing a trend at the moment of people perhaps going into the high street store and using it as an Amazon showroom. So they go in there, look around, and then search for the product online

to save money. Now, this problem is solved through service, after-sales, and delivery. 

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Continued on page 70

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ESTABLISHING WORLD-CLASS CUSTOMERService

Nicholas Hill Interviews Richard Denny

Continued from page 65

CUSTOMER CARE IS NOT UP TO THE STANDARD THAT IT SHOULD BE.

Establishing WorldClass Customer

Service provides the ingredients for creating brand loyalty and raving fans.

Nicholas Hill

In my 20 years of training delivery, I noticed that many SMEs invest much time, money, and effort in prospecting. However, once they’ve secured the sale, I found that the investments in retaining those customers are disproportional to those in securing the initial order. Why do so many SMEs fail in their customer service?

Richard Denny

Nicholas, you’ve hit on

something paramount. Companies used to employ what I call hunters and farmers. So, some salespeople were hunters, and some were farmers. The modern salesperson today has to be a hunter and a farmer. We spend vast amounts of money on prospecting. A considerable amount of money is spent on brochures. We see money spent on decorating the shop window to get people in. Then, it all goes wrong in the sales process. In many cases, we don’t sell very well. The after-sales department lets the whole operation down because customer care is not up to the standard that it should be. So we’ve got to change our thought

process and spend more in this neglected area. We’ve got to invest more money in people, training them to communicate, answer the phone, know what customer care is, and understand why people want service. What is service?

Nicholas Hill

Precisely, Richard. For this reason, the business training industry exists and gives us both our livelihoods.

the content and process are constructive and help the other party. On the other hand, service starts with recognising the role of servant and master. The business must be the customer’s servant. We must shape this

Communication is not just opening our mouths and making sounds. It is about listening, connecting, responding, engaging, educating, leading, resolving, and satisfying. The verbs are almost endless, provided

identity into organisational culture if we want the raving fans you and I are discussing.

Richard Denny Right. How many companies employ receptionists these days? That person who

WE MAKE IT AS DIFFICULT AS POSSIBLE FOR OUR CUSTOMERS TO SPEAK TO A PERSON.

answers the phone can be a gold mine to a business. But what do we do? We send our customers to machines with lots of options. We make it as difficult as possible for our customers to speak to a person. And what does the customer want? Most want to talk to somebody, yet we put barriers in the way. So this is a vast subject, and you and I spend our working lives

helping our clients restore this balance.

Nicholas Hill

The answer to this next question may seem obvious, but it’s necessary to explore it to prevent assumptions. What might the customer want to speak to us about once they’ve purchased the product?

THE MANAGEMENT MIGHT SAY THEY GIVE EXCELLENT SERVICE BUT HARDLY EVER DELIVER IT.

Richard Denny

Well, maybe the product is not working effectively, and they want some advice on how to use it more effectively. If we’ve got a customer, consider the money we spent on winning that customer. They can now become an ambassador for our brand and product, so permit them to talk to us.

Nicholas Hill

Right. This is where our marketing becomes wordof-mouth. Our customers become our raving fans who mature into an external salesforce but demand no commission. When we think about customer care this way,

IF WE’VE GOT A CUSTOMER, CONSIDER THE MONEY WE SPENT ON WINNING THAT CUSTOMER.

THE MOST VALUABLE BUSINESS WE CAN EVER GET IS THROUGH A RECOMMENDATION OR REFERRAL.

it becomes a no-brainer. The payoff can be huge.

Richard Denny

As you said, the most valuable business we can ever get is through a recommendation or referral. We have to deserve the recommendation. We have to earn the right for our customers to refer us to somebody else. But my goodness, if you’re working on that basis, you could make an absolute fortune from looking after customers. Customer care is a significant opportunity in today’s business world, but very few businesses do it well. The management might say they

give excellent service but hardly ever deliver it.

Nicholas Hill

Okay, since we’ve established the importance of customer retention through customer service, what are the critical ingredients for world-class customer service?

Richard Denny

Before getting into that subject, we must correct the basic understanding. We’ve spent the last 30 years in most of commerce trying to achieve customer satisfaction. Yet, 80% of satisfied customers have zero loyalty. They will happily use some other brand

80% OF SATISFIED CUSTOMERS HAVE ZERO LOYALTY. THEY WILL HAPPILY USE SOME OTHER BRAND OR A COMPETITOR OF YOURS.

or a competitor of yours. Instead of being satisfied, they should be delighted with you. More importantly, they must believe that you are awesome. You can only become awesome when your customer is in trouble and requires urgent help. We must develop the opportunity to welcome and understand customer concerns.

Nicholas Hill

Instead, we sometimes see business owners and senior managers who believe

delusions of grandeur lead to denial of underlying problems, such as repeated customer complaints or poor feedback. Humbly accepting

MY CLIENTS WERE THE BANKS FOR MANY YEARS, AND I WAS VERY PROUD OF MY ASSOCIATION.

they are awesome without the testimonials to verify the claim! These are selfappointed titles without credibility. Sadly, these

that we still have so much to learn and must serve the customer first are principles that I must communicate in my seminars, and I know you

THESE POLICIES UPSET CUSTOMERS BECAUSE MANAGEMENT IS SOMETIMES UNAWARE OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

do too, Richard.

Richard Denny

We must build these principles into a culture and lead from the top. My clients were the banks for many years, and I was very proud of my association. But it all went wrong recently because people in the ivory towers created new policies. These policies upset customers because management is sometimes unaware of what people want. Well, what do we all want? If you are an entrepreneur or a businessperson, what do you want? You want to speak to your bank manager. You want to know who they are. You want somebody who’s

been around the block a bit, has some experience, and is somebody you can trust. Some committee members take away these decisions and leave us with front people. We are no longer allowed to speak to the organ grinder.

Nicholas Hill

Indeed, there is a need at the top to lead customer service development plans. However, the plans will fail unless senior management knows their customers as well as the sales and marketing departments do. So, how do you get senior managers to become more connected with the customer and realise what they want?

Richard Denny

It's straightforward. One of the most significant success stories is the John Lewis

Partnership, where every single staff member has a piece of the action and is part of the company—as they say, they own it. The management walks the floor, talks to customers, listens, watches, and observes what’s happening. They’re all part of the success. They’re all customer-focused. They know who pays their wages. They know their salary depends entirely on the customer. So everyone is doing the best they possibly can for the customer.

Nicholas Hill Right. This philosophy links to our conversation about interdepartmental communication. Knowing the minds of your colleagues in other departments is as important as management knowing their teams

and customers. This concept is more than communication. It is a culture of interdependence where we recognise the power of relationships. 

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Continued on page 80

ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT SUCCESS STORIES IS THE JOHN LEWIS PARTNERSHIP, WHERE EVERY SINGLE STAFF MEMBER HAS A PIECE OF THE ACTION

helped our turnover to improve by 26%, which continues to rise.

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THERE’S SO MUCH TO DO, AND THERE ARE SO MANY CHALLENGES.

WHAT LOVING DO YOU

Nicholas Hill Interviews

Richard Denny

Continued from page 75

Loving What You Do concludes my conversation with Richard, in which we espouse finding your purpose and injecting passion into your work.

Nicholas Hill

Richard, you are semi-retired and still involved in your company’s plans, so what is the future for you?

Richard Denny

Well, I’m excited about the future. There’s so much to do, and there are so many challenges. We have just finished completing our most significant body of work ever. I made a hundred new videos for our coaching series in the last few months. Next year, we’re launching the Denny Business Academy around the world, so we’ve got lots of

things I’m looking forward to. I have a bucket list of things I want to get involved with, as well as my mentoring and coaching services. So, I’m excited about the future.

Nicholas, I’m sure you are. We are living in a time of change. We’re living in a time of massive opportunity, but also when we must do things differently and change. We want the results, so we must do things a bit better than the rest.

Nicholas Hill

Wonderful. I am encouraged to hear you say this, but I am

IT’S A REASON TO GET UP EARLY AND STAY UP LATE.

WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME OF CHANGE. WE’RE LIVING IN A TIME OF MASSIVE OPPORTUNITY,

not surprised. Your passion bleeds into the pages of your books. Running a business, no matter how small, is tremendously satisfying. It becomes your hobby and your way of life. It’s a reason to get up early and stay up late. I look forward to Monday mornings when I can get stuck into the next adventure to move my business forward. If I am training that day, I am in my element. When you do what you love and add value to people’s lives, nothing in the world can replace that.

I’VE BEEN GIVING MY FAMILY, CHILDREN, AND GRANDCHILDREN MORE TIME.

Others are going down the pub or to the tennis court after work. All the while, you and I are making things happen in our businesses to satisfy our customers. We are working because it is our purpose and our passion. I know this to be true of you, too, because of our many conversations. Therefore, I imagine ‘retirement’ is another dirty word you resist using!

Richard Denny

Personally, retirement is not a word that drops into my vocabulary. I’ve been giving my family, children, and grandchildren more time. I have many hobbies and

sports, so my life is not just work. It is very much a chance to do what I enjoy doing. And I’m very fortunate that people still want me to help them, speak to them, and provide coaching. I love all that, so I get job satisfaction. But balance is a crucial part of life and happiness. Get the balance right between work, joy, and time for others.

Nicholas Hill

Wonderful. So let’s continue, you and I, doing that, whatever we do, just a little bit better day by day, week by week, month by month. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today, Richard. It has been an absolute delight

GET THE BALANCE RIGHT BETWEEN WORK, JOY, AND TIME FOR OTHERS.

having you with us. I wish you tremendous success in the future. Thank you once again.

Richard Denny

Thank you, Nicholas. As always, it was a joy to speak with you.   

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WE WANT THE RESULTS, SO WE MUST DO THINGS A BIT BETTER THAN THE REST.

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You are inspirational and knowledgeable. you gave me the skills to develop my managers.

N. Armstrong

Regional Manager REED SPECIALIST RECRUITMENT LTD

The provocative discussions and exercises made us practise your wise strategies.

C. Corrigan

Senior Project Manager SUEZ RECYCLING & RECOVERY LTD

You have developed my identity as a leader and reconstructed how I lead my team.

J. Dickson

Executive Head Chef CORUS HOTELS

I am very satisfied with the excellent results that I have achieved on your course.

J. Sharpe

Head of Risk ABN AMRO

You helped me to close gaps in my management team and solve the problems.

G. Sidoo

Senior Delivery Manager NEAL AND MASSY WOOD GROUP LTD

Your powerful material has already improved our net profit by 26%.

Dr. T. Cardoso

Clinical Director MEDIVET VETERINARY GROUP

Nicholas Hill is an effective thought leader. i’ve scored your course as ‘excellent’ in all categories.

B. Richard

Vice President & GM EMEA ESTÉE LAUDER COMPANIES

You provided me with essential tools to eliminate key problems in my workplace.

A. Al-Romaihi

Administrative Affairs Researcher MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (QATAR)

I learned a wide variety of methods over two very intense days. The course was simply fantastic.

L. Gully

Deputy Head of Sport UNIVERSITY OF THE WEST OF ENGLAND

You enhanced my knowledge and transformed my strategic management skills.

N. Pritchard Commercial Manager COBHAM PLC

Nicholas Hill is one of the best trainers around, who improved my ability to lead and manage.

I. Panayiotou

Senior Nursing Officer MINISTRY OF HEALTH (CYPRUS)

Your course gave me skills and confidence to lead my team through structured processes.

A. Leonard Sales Director MASCO UK WINDOW GROUP

Your course provided awareness, outstanding methodologies, and real-work examples.

M. Capell

General Manager

LISI AEROSPACE

Enlightening and outstanding...helped me to innovate, plan, and solve problems in my team.

P. Smith

Managing Director

EJ GROUP INC.

We now know how to keep projects on track, hold reviews, and make corrections.

H. Doward

Group Operations Director

HUGHES TV & AUDIO LTD

I now know how to spot the early signs of resistance to change and then turn people around.

W. McFadden

Group Financial Controller

VOYAGE CARE LTD

I gained significant leadership knowledge, developed skills, and underwent thorough practise.

E. Mwangi

Country Programme Manager

TRADEMARK EAST AFRICA

...up-to-date leadership techniques, which equipped me to handle real team challenges.

S. Kidner

Managing Director

SECRET WORLD WILDLIFE RESCUE LTD

I raised my consciousness, flexed my leadership style, and played with different techniques.

B. Meier

Learning & Development Manager

HERBERT SMITH FREEHILLS LLP

I can now help my team to improve performance and become self-motivated.

B. Abankwa

Head of Client Coverage for Africa

BANK OF GHANA

You delivered first-rate sessions to our senior managers ...we have seen clear improvements since.

S. Forbes HR Manager

TE CONNECTIVITY

I am now able to approach problems objectively and think creatively about solving them.

S. Carrodus-Hill

Senior Business Consultant

HAMPTONS INTERNATIONAL

You helped me to understand and deal with the behaviour of negative and hostile people.

R. Raza Sales Manager

GOODWIN INTERNATIONAL LTD

Nicholas Hill is results-focused and skillfull enough to keep training fascinating and useful.

O. Klochkova

Chief Operations Officer

PLAYSON LTD