The Music Business Worldwide Yearbook 2019/2020

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Editor’s Letter: Five Years Old

Music Business Worldwide is a series of boxes, some squiggles in Biro, and a bit of coarse language. At least, that’s all we were back in late 2014, when our website and newsletter – let alone physical wonders like this Yearbook – were yet to be born.

The image above (you were warned about the language!) was our blueprint: a hastily jotted-down sketch of what MBW was destined to become. ‘Sexy headline’, indeed.

2020 is a special year for MBW, because it marks our first halfdecade in existence (we went live on January 2, 2015). In a world where, according to Forbes, 90% of startups fail, we’re obviously delighted to still be here, and to still be growing. What’s carried us from the scrawled diagram above

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to five years of growth? Simply this: a passion for the changing shape of the music business – and an understanding that wasting the time of those busy sculpting this industry’s future is, in the pursuit of progress, tantamount to thievery.

This MBW Yearbook, then, supported by our friends at Centtrip, not only presents some of the best and most interesting interviews to appear in our corner of the internet during the past 12 months, it also stands as a kind of fifth birthday cake. (One which is both gluten free and plant-based – we’re ready for the #trends of a new decade.) So here’s to the next five years: to head-turning stories, to passionate debates, to big money deals. And to oodles more sexy headlines, obviously...

Tim Ingham, Editor & Founder, MBW

Contents

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Brandon Creed, Full Stop Management

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Aaron Bay-Schuck, Warner Records

28

Ethiopia Habtemariam, Motown/Capitol Music Group

34

Danny Rukasin & Brandon Goodman

42

Jody Gerson, UMPG

50

Moe Shalizi, The Shalizi Group

58

Peter Edge, RCA

63

Scott Cutler & Josh Abraham, Pulse Music Group

68

Willard Ahdritz, Kobalt Music Group

74

Tamara Hrivnak, Facebook

78

Rodney Jerkins, songwriter/producer

84

Hartwig Masuch, BMG

88

Tayla Parx, songwriter/artist

93

Elena Segal, Apple Music

97

Andrew Gertler, AG Artists

104

Ariel Rechtshaid, songwriter/producer

110

Katie Vinten, Facet/Black Diamond Management

Brandon Creed: ‘Real artists are breaking very big, very fast... because there’s a thirst for superstars.’

Brandon Creed is thankful for a time in his life when he was “young, wide-eyed, a little bit ambitious, and a little bit naive”.

These descriptors, he says, were all key ingredients in his decision to quit his first job in music – as an assistant at Los Angeles-based Jersey Records, the musical outpost of Danny DeVito’s production company Jersey Film (Pulp Fiction, Get Shorty) – and hot-tail it to New York in his early 20s.

As Toronto-born Creed tells it, he landed in NYC without much of a career plan; he just knew he wanted to live in the Big Apple, and that music would be central to how he paid the rent.

“Growing up I was always the guy making mixtapes for my friends, I would go to the record store every Tuesday, I was the one introducing the new artists to everyone,” he says. “It felt like, if I was going to pursue a passion, music had to be it.”

Creed didn’t secure many music biz connections as an assistant for Jersey Records boss Anita Camarata, but he did build a useful network of fellow assistants, including one, at a legal practice, who, in turn, introduced him to the assistant of one Charles Goldstuck.

Goldstuck was then GM of Arista, and proved to be the proverbial foot in the door Creed required, introducing him to Tom Corson, who was looking for an assistant. He got the job. From there, the young Canadian built a solid reputation working under Tom, Charles and Clive Davis, first at Arista and then at Davis’ J Records. He then jumped to Epic

Records to pursue A&R, where he would discover an unsigned Bruno Mars – who was freshlydropped from Motown Records, and figuring out his own career.

Creed began officially managing Mars in 2008, becoming a vital part of the story of one of the most successful US-based artists and songwriters of the past few decades. With Creed in his corner, Mars released the multi-platinum Doo Wops & Hooligans (2010) and Unorthodox

“GROWING UP I WAS ALWAYS THE GUY MAKING MIXTAPES FOR MY FRIENDS. IT FELT LIKE, IF I WAS GOING TO PURSUE A PASSION, MUSIC HAD TO BE IT.”

the most powerful and successful artist representative firms working in music.

Creed brought his own stellar roster to Full Stop, including Ronson, Troye Sivan and Sara Bareilles – to which he has since added Charli XCX and comanagement duties on one of the breakthrough artists of 2019, Lizzo. Atlantic-signed Lizzo, real name Melissa Jefferson, has taken the globe by storm, with her debut major label album, Cuz I Love You, going platinum in the States and delivering the smash singles Juice and Truth Hurts.

Lizzo was recently nominated for the ‘big four’ at the Grammys 2020: Best New Artist and Album Of The Year, plus Song Of The Year and Record Of The year (for Truth Hurts).

Here, Creed discusses his career origins, his views on management and the modern business – and his ambitions for Full Stop and the future...

Jukebox (2012), the latter winning the Grammy for Best Pop Vocal Album. After nine years together, Creed and Mars parted ways in 2016, but not before Uptown Funk – created by long-time Creed client Mark Ronson in tandem with Mars – smashed streaming records and won Record Of The Year at the Grammys in 2016.

Creed’s independent management company, The Creed Co., made a power move in 2017, combining with megamanager Irving Azoff and ex-CAA star Jeffrey Azoff (Harry Styles, Megan Trainor) to launch Full Stop Management – now one of

Your big break came via Charles Goldstuck’s assistant. How? Charles at the time was the GM of Arista, working for Clive [Davis]. Tom Corson had just been hired from Columbia as EVP of Worldwide Marketing at Arista – he’d been there for about six months. Tom had a temp, and was looking for a permanent assistant. [Goldstuck’s] assistant connected me to another assistant, who connected me to Tom, who was my first meeting when I landed in New York City that January.

I went through two months of pounding the pavement looking for other [opportunities], working 13

Lizzo

every relationship I had, doing what I could to get a job. I met with Tom a couple more times and he agreed to sponsor me – since I was Canadian and needed a visa – which was a big roll of the dice; I got that job in March.

At that time, Clive was going through his argument with BMG [the Bertelsmann company was foolishly trying to force him into retirement], so I knew that the job was going to be temporary – Tom was going to leave with Clive, but I didn’t know the details.

In June, Tom called and said, ‘So, Clive’s leaving, we’ve all been relieved of our duties at Arista. We’re going to be starting something new up in the next couple of months.’ J Records started that September and I was in the first round of employees.

And it was incredible.

Did you climb the ranks quite quickly?

I was at J for a total of six years.

We worked out of the Waldorf 14

Astoria for the first year. My office was literally a vanity in-between the bathroom and Tom’s office – which was a converted bedroom.

It was a really unique and unforgettable experience; it was like going to grad school.

I had close proximity to Clive and Charles, and the entire A&R team, which included Peter Edge, Keith Naftaly and Larry Jackson, people I still have a very close relationship with today. Tom remains one of my favorite people and close friends in the business, as do Peter and Keith.

There were no product managers, video commissioners or international people at J at the time, so for the first six months I was thrown into these projects well beyond my abilities. It was an amazing learning experience.

I saw the launch and reestablishing of various artists, firsthand, by [Davis] – a living legend of the business. I look back with such fondness and gratitude on that time.

How did you get from there to artist management?

I realized very quickly that I loved being close to the music and that I wanted to do A&R. But when you are in a place as a young kid trying to move your way up, it’s tough to break through. I realized I needed to leave in order to get to the next level. So I left, and shortly afterwards got a position doing A&R at Epic Records, which was newly run by Charlie Walk. He took a chance on me, and I [subsequently] established amazing relationships that I still have in the creative and artist community today. I got to work with artists like Jennifer Lopez, Brandy and others.

Through the A&R process, I was introduced to Bruno, who had just been dropped from Motown and I believe had just been dropped from his manager too. During that period [the early noughties] a lot of A&R guys were moonlighting as managers for songwriters and producers. It was never something I really wanted to do, but I bought Bruno’s first song off him – he had never been a writer or producer before, for [another artist], but in his very shrewd manner, he said, ‘You can have this song I wrote, if you let me produce it.’

I paid him a fee for it, we met and we clicked. I started using him and his writing partner, Philip Lawrence, for every session I was involved in – then other people started to call me to put them in sessions for other artists and labels. It just came together that way, and I started managing them as songwriters and producers.

Were you moonlighting?

I was unofficially working with Bruno while still working at Sony, yes. I didn’t get paid as a manager for a couple of years, just because I had the day job – and they didn’t have any money anyway!

They were working to try to

sustain a living, and we didn’t know where it was going to go.

Well, I think Bruno always knew where it was going to go – I didn’t, at that time. I brought them into Epic at one point, but [the A&R team] weren’t that interested in signing them.

There is a long list of shining A&R stars who turned their noses up at Bruno.

Almost every successful artist has their story. Actually, the first artist I brought into Epic, a month in, was Lady Gaga. This was prior to her even signing to Def Jam; she didn’t have any of the music she broke with, but she was definitely a force, and I responded to that, but my superiors didn’t.

I was new, I didn’t have full conviction in my abilities at the time, either; timing is everything in this business. I still have her demo packet.

Around the same time I was using Bruno and Phil quite a bit [as writers], so was Aaron BaySchuck. He was responsible for the session that produced Right Round [for Flo Rida], then Nothin’ On You [for BoB], Billionaire and F*ck You [for CeeLo Green]. It was a time in the business when people like Keri Hilson, Ne-Yo, The Dream and Ryan Tedder were sought after writers who used that currency to build their artist profiles – and that’s what we attempted to do with Bruno. As we all know, so much of the power in this business is in the creator and the song, so when you have songs that are in demand, when your time is in demand as a writer, you get taken a lot more seriously – and that’s what started to happen with Bruno.

The music business has evolved a lot since you started out as a manager with Bruno. What to your mind are the most valuable functions of a manger today?

It’s a completely different business than it was when I

started as a manager and at a label. But fundamentally, for a manager, the proposition is always the same: to seriously protect your artist, help execute their vision, and fight for their right to achieve their goals.

While the terrain and the apparatus – whether it’s streaming, social media or other developments – change, the goals are always the same.

Ahmet Ertugen said something like: ‘We walk around looking until you’re lucky enough to bump into a genius – and when you do, hold on and don’t let go.’ I’ve been fortunate enough to bump into a few geniuses, and I’ve done what I can to hold on!

Lizzo is one of the modern music business’s biggest stories.

How has her team strategized

to meet. It took [Lizzo] a few months to make the decision, a period of deliberation, which I’m always very happy to see.

The most important professional relationship an artist can have is with their manager, and I consider my most important relationships those with my artists; it’s wise to take that time.

After she came to the decision we jumped right in. This is the first time that I’ve been connected to an artist that seemingly blew up overnight, even though she’s been working ten years for this, working her ass off, and is now getting what she so deserves.

The success is a result of so many things, namely Lizzo’s talent and vision, but it’s been a team effort from the beginning.

Myself, Kevin and Alana at Full

“WE WORKED OUT OF THE WALDORF ASTORIA. MY OFFICE WAS LITERALLY A VANITY INBETWEEN THE BATHROOM AND TOM’S OFFICE – WHICH WAS A CONVERTED BEDROOM.” to break her as a vivid artist proposition, when we’re so used to much of that mainstream streaming business being more about tracks/playlists?

It’s incredible – and, talking of geniuses, she is one. She knows exactly who she is, what her vision is, and always has. The thing about Lizzo that was very clear from the beginning was there was two sides: when you said her name, people either said, ‘I don’t know who that is,’ or, ‘Oh my God I fucking love her!’ There was nothing really in-between.

Me, Kevin Beisler and Alana Balden have worked with her for almost two-and-a-half years now. We met her in April 2017, at the suggestion of Julie Greenwald and Larry Wade, who both encouraged each side

Stop worked really closely with the Nice Life team – Larry Wade and Ricky Reed – and then her team at Atlantic, Brandon Davis, Grace James, Ashley Kalmanowitz, Torsten Luth and of course Julie Greenwald and Craig Kallman.

In the post-Blurred Lines climate, Lizzo’s faced claims about plagiarism and has responded forcefully. Some say those claims are spurious, to say the least.

What are your thoughts on the current situation, and what can the music business do about it?

Unfortunately, I have been involved in a few of these situations over the years. There’s definitely an ambulance-chasing, bottom-feeding approach that seems to be happening in the 15

songwriting and publishing world today, particularly in the United States because of the way the legal system works. That’s not to say there aren’t sometimes legitimate infringements usually made unintentionally, but extortion tactics are becoming increasingly rampant.

It’s oftentimes considered easier and more cost-effective to just settle these claims than it is to fight them. It’s scary to put the very subjective, creative process [of songwriting] in the fate of a judge and/or jury who might not fully understand how it works.

There’s only X amount of notes, and combinations of notes, that exist. The innuendo is what’s really challenging; it’s unfortunate because it scares a lot of songwriters, it hurts a lot of songwriters. And often it’s just lawyers or business people buying catalogs out there looking for [legal] opportunities to seize upon – it’s often not the actual artist themselves [driving the claim] over a perceived infringement.

Mark Ronson

How do you judge your success as a manager today – streams, ticket sales or something else?

Our success is based completely on the artist’s satisfaction.

Whatever the artist’s goal is, I take pride in the win. If they want No.1 records, Grammy nominations, an Oscar, a Broadway run, to raise money or awareness for a cause whatever it is, that’s what we’re here to do. Of course, I take pride in running great campaigns and exciting and successful tours, and in helping stimulate conversations in popular culture.

But ultimately we measure our success as a company when the artist is happy. Artists are often happy when they’re having success and making money - so that’s a good thing.

What in your mind can Full Stop bring to an artist career that other companies cannot?

Management is such a personal, real relationship. It’s all about the dynamic between two people, but also the resources that the manager has to help the artist.

Full Stop has power in numbers and in its roster and we have an incredible team of managers.

Getting to work with Irving and Jeffrey on a daily basis has been amazing. We all came with different backgrounds. Words can’t do justice to describe what Irving has achieved in his career, and what a crusader he is for his artists and all artists in the business. Irving is non-stop, a force! He’s always thinking of something you’re not.

I had an extensive label background, a creative background in A&R, and helped break a global superstar [in Bruno]; Jeffrey comes from the agency world, has been a part of massive tours and has built Harry [Styles’] career incredibly well. There are a lot of options out there for an artist, but we bring a very specific, boutique yet full service approach to an artist’s life and career.

You came together with Irving and Jeffrey Azoff for Full Stop.

What in your view are the key ingredients for a successful

long-lasting artist/manager relationship like the one you have with Mark Ronson?

As a manager, you are spending the majority, if not the entirety, of your day, in some way, shape or form, making an argument arguing on behalf of your artist.

To do that, you have to believe in the argument, and in your artist’s instincts and their vision. If you are lucky enough to work with artists where you have that, it’s easy to argue all day long. And of course, like any relationship, it’s about like-mindedness; you’re not going to be best friends with every artist you work with, but in some cases you are lucky to share friendship. I do my best to operate with integrity, to operate ethically and with transparency.

What did you learn from your relationship with Bruno – and what’s your observation on you parting ways now some water has passed under the bridge?

I am so grateful for the opportunity and experience I had with Bruno. It’s something I’ll never be able to replicate with anybody else; we were both essentially figuring it out together. It was an incredible ride, a rocketship; we broke records and did things people said we’d never be able to do; we did the 17

Superbowl just after his second album, then did it again two years later; there was Uptown Funk, Bruno and Mark’s song together, which was named the song of the decade by Billboard. I learned so much; I was able to put into practice so much from what I learned from Tom and Clive and other people over the years. It was high pressure, high anxiety but it was an incredible experience.

I have so much respect for Bruno as an artist and as a person. I’m really grateful for the experience, I learned a lot from it, and I have learned a lot in the years since we parted.

As with anything, there are some things that I wish had gone differently, but I don’t live with regret and I’m proud of what we achieved together.

I root for him. He’s going to be around for as long as he wants to be around. I’m happy for the experience, I’m happy for him, and I’m happy where I am right now.

If I could give you a magic wand to change one thing about the modern music business, what would it be and why?

I would change the power and the currency of social media. As in every area of society, it can be very positive, but it can also be dangerous, weaponized and harmful – and I think it doesn’t always mean as much as people think it does when an artist has X amount of followers.

Therefore it creates opportunities that a betterformed artist, or someone who might deserve [that opportunity] more doesn’t get, because they’re not good at social media. I grew up in the era of massive superstars like Madonna, Prince, Michael Jackson, George Michael; there’s a mystique

around those artists that I don’t think would exist today because of social media.

It’s a notch against an artist if they don’t participate in that [social media] space, but it can create a toxic environment. It can be a public reckoning for artists and songs, and that doesn’t always need to be the case. That said, I also see its value and how it can be used for positivity.

If you could go back and contact yourself during your first few months in management, what would you say?

Have confidence. Stand your ground. Believe in yourself, and trust your gut. And have a little bit more fun!

Bruno Mars

What excites you most about the future of the business and what will be its biggest challenge?

When you get to be a part of something that makes people feel good and connects, that becomes a cultural phenomenon – Uptown Funk, or Shallow or what Waitress did for Sara Barellies; working with an artist like Troye Sivan, who would have not existed ten years ago because being an ‘out’ artist was not as widely accepted, he is an example and role model for so many young kids out there; Charli XCX just came off a sold out tour where she performed to rave-like audiences every night and gave people the time of their lives.

Lizzo, on the cover of Vogue, and being Time and EW’s entertainer of the year - people embracing her, her art, her music, her being, it’s so gratifying to be a part of that. The goal remains the same: working with visionaries, and spreading their gospel. That’s also the challenge, because it’s become harder and harder to do that – but when it does happen, it happens even bigger than it used to.

Lizzo and Billie Eilish are perfect examples; real artists who are breaking very big, very fast because there’s a thirst for superstars.

Social media and other platforms have arguably provided an opportunity for a lot of less charismatic, more two-dimensional artists to come through and populate the space.

For me, it’s about working with artists that stand for something, have a vision and are superstars in the true sense of the word – and it always will be.

This interview first appeared on MBW in December 2019.

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“WE HAVE TO DELIVER FOR THE NEW ARTISTS WE’RE SIGNING; WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.”

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Aaron Bay-Schuck: ‘Warner Records cares about having the right artists, not having the most artists.’

Aaron Bay-Schuck’s fist is gripped into a ball, knocking home his points as if applying a hammer to a nail.

“There’s a fire that is just unmatched here,” he says. “We can’t rest on our laurels, we can’t rely on 10 established superstars to pay the overhead.

“We have to deliver for the new artists that we are signing: we have no other choice.”

Evidently, Bay-Schuck’s sense of purpose has crystallized in the past year.

On October 1, 2018, Bay-Schuck officially became a major record company CEO for the first time at Warner Bros. Records (now Warner Records). Following his departure from Universal’s Interscope to join Warner Music Group, the A&R specialist spent a full 12 months on what the British euphemistically call “gardening leave”.

This was a tough experience for Bay-Schuck – an exec who’d garnered a solid reputation for keeping his finger on the pulse of Stateside A&R trends. Happily, he had age on his side: today, at 38, he is notably youthful for a record company boss, especially in the United States.

And, perhaps, in hindsight, he’s even grateful for the chance to recharge his batteries. Because ever since Bay-Schuck joined his coChairman, Tom Corson, at Warner Records, their pace hasn’t let up.

MBW joins Bay-Schuck in Warner Records’ sparkling new warehouse-chic Downtown L.A offices (white walls, polished concrete, floor-to-ceiling artist canvases). The exec reveals that, since his first day at the label, his

team have cut over 50% of the previous regime’s roster from the label’s books; in the plus column, they’ve signed over 30 new artists.

Many of these fresh acts, as you might expect in the modern US industry, broadly sit within the boundaries of hip-hop – a cultural affiliation which was arguably lacking at then Burbank-based Warner Bros. Records under BaySchuck’s predecessors.

Pleasingly for Bay-Schuck and Corson, the New Class of Warner Records are starting to gain real traction. Saweetie’s My Type and Wale’s On Chill (feat. Jeremih) recently scored the No.1s at Urban and Rhythmic Radio in the US. Elsewhere, platinumselling NLE Choppa followed his breakthrough single Shotta Flow with latest hit Camelot; Ali Gatie, a young artist from Toronto, has amassed over half a billion streams; and Ashnikko’s STUPID feat. Yung Baby Tate has gone viral via TikTok. There’s also been Grammy success (with 2018’s Best New Artist, Dua Lipa), as well as massive hits like Bad Bunny x Drake’s MIA (over 750m Spotify streams) plus Marshmello x AnneMarie’s FRIENDS (over 800m), and album successes from OVO’s Top Boy to established stars like The Black Keys and Gary Clark Jr. According to Bay-Schuck, Warner Records’ roster now spans over 90 artists (with circa 60 having survived the Great A&R Cull). There has been an influx of new executive talent, too: Bay-Schuck says he and Corson have “built an A&R team up from three people to 30”, which includes the likes of exCapitol exec Nate Albert, now

EVP of A&R at Warner Records.

In their quest to modernize the company, Bay-Schuck and Corson have also inked a number of recent JV deals with external industry talents, including R&R Records, Masked Records , Katie Vinten and Justin Tranter’s Facet Records, and Pat ‘The Manager’ Corcoran.

Bay-Schuck’s industry career began 20 years ago out of Columbia University, where he studied Political Science.

Following his graduation in 2003, he returned to Los Angeles and landed a job as an Assistant working for Martin Kierszenbaum at Interscope. A year later, he joined Atlantic Records as an A&R Assistant before stepping up as a fully-fledged A&R exec under Mike Caren, John Janick and Craig Kallman.

At Atlantic, Bay-Schuck discovered, signed and developed Bruno Mars – still a huge global priority at that label today. The exec also worked with the likes of CeeLo Green and Trey Songz, in addition to A&R’ing and co-writing worldwide multiplatinum hit, Right Round, by Flo Rida feat. Kesha.

After 10 years at Warner’s biggest label, Bay-Schuck joined fellow ex-Atlantic whiz, John Janick, at Universal’s Interscope Geffen A&M. There, Bay-Schuck operated as President of A&R, where he worked with the likes of Imagine Dragons, Lady Gaga, Gwen Stefani, Selena Gomez, Maroon 5, X Ambassadors, and Zedd.

Having agreed terms of his latest gig with Warner Music Group’s global CEO of recorded 21

NLE Choppa

music, Max Lousada, Bay-Schuck’s resignation from Interscope in October 2017 caused clear internal consternation.

Sources say Jeremy Erlich, then EVP/CFO of IGA – now Head of Music at Spotify – sent a terse note to Interscope staff which read: “Aaron Bay-Schuck has made the decision to leave the company. He will remain here in his current role until September 2018.” In other words: You’re going nowhere for the next 12 months, sunshine.

Now, Bay-Schuck is free to put his stamp on one of the world’s most storied labels – and, as MBW learns below, he’s not afraid of making tough choices if it helps him achieve his aspirations...

You’ve cut over half of the roster you inherited at warner records in October 2018. That sounds like a painful undertaking.

Yeah – it was a bit of a necessary evil. It’s never a fun process.

We’ve recently been in strategy meetings, so I know the exact number: we had to let go 53% of the roster.

When Tom and I got started, we had a frontline roster here of about 60 or so acts, maybe even a little less, which is smaller than 22

probably the largest indies out there. It’s certainly a really small number for a major US record company.

Not only did we have to define a new identity here, but we had to sign more artists simply to have enough music for this company to work. That led to probably a few more signings than I would naturally make in a given year, but it was necessary and we always made sure that we kept the bar very high.

I didn’t want to sign just for the sake of signing. I feel like I made that mistake a little bit when I first joined Interscope. I rushed a little bit and signed a few things that maybe weren’t the best version of what I was going for.

That was an important lesson for me to learn.

For a long time, warner bros has struggled to compete on artist signings with the big frontline labels. How are you fixing that reputation for being behind the curve, especially when so many people have tried and failed?

That question hit home for me when Max came to me with this opportunity. My initial instinct was to not really take it very seriously because there was an

outside perspective, to be honest, that this label was in a dire place.

Todd [Moscowitz], Livia [Tortella], Rob [Cavallo], Cameron [Strang] – these are all very, very smart people. If they weren’t able to bring the label back to full strength, why would I be any different? It was something I asked myself a lot. Was I really going to be given the tools necessary to make a difference?

But when Max started to peel back the layers of the onion, telling me about Tom [Corson], the flexibility we were going to have – both in deal-making and bringing in our people – it became very clear that Max was on a mission to make this one of the best record companies in the world again.

The No.1 way we’ve shown our ambition is by our aggressiveness and our building up of a world class A&R team. It was imperative to show managers, lawyers and anybody else paying attention that we have a point of view now.

My goal is to define Warner Records so clearly that sometimes we don’t get to sign things because people know what’s not right for us as much as they know what is. I’m okay with that.

It was also time to innovate, to do deals differently, and from day one here we’ve set that example.

And then, of course moving downtown in L.A and changing our name [from Warner Bros.] have both been huge changes.

This building alone has done wonders for the perception of this label, while helping create a culture of productivity and of camaraderie that I’ve never really experienced in any other record company.

Are you enjoying running a major record company?

Yes. More than I ever thought I would.

I’ll be honest: This was a job I never thought I wanted. I’ve

watched the toll it can take on people all across our industry. It’s really, really demanding, it’s a lot of pressure and no matter how hard you work at it, no matter how good you are at it, it still takes a hell of a lot of luck to succeed.

I had to change my mindset and really decide to take a leap of faith. The reason I’m now loving it more than any position I’ve ever held in the business is because I come to work every day with a real purpose.

When you’re coming up as an A&R person, of course you care about your artists, but you’re also very aware that you’re defined by what you’re signing, that your career is on the line... and that, because this is the entertainment business, sometimes you don’t always get full credit for the work that you do. So you learn to constantly pound your chest and make sure people are aware of your own contributions. That gets exhausting.

All Tom and I care about now is that this company is successful, that the people working here are happy, and that the artists who sign here feel great about it.

That’s genuinely my only goal. I love that.

When two people run a major label together, it can be a great success... Or it can be a power struggle. Which one describes the professional balance between you and tom?

I can say very confidently that I would not have taken this job if I was the sole Chairman of the label. In fact, Tom was a huge reason I decided to come here.

I consider myself very in tune with my skillset. My blood, sweat and tears has always been the identification of artists and the creation of songs. Of course, any great A&R person needs to have a full understanding of the inner workings of a record company, but I’m not sitting in marketing

meetings or promotion meetings every day. I don’t really know how you can be a truly effective leader if you don’t have someone, whether they carry the ‘Chairman’ title or not, who has complementary areas of expertise and that you completely trust.

Turning this place around by taking on all sides of the company would be too much work for any one person. For one thing, there’s just so much happening out there. Every week in our A&R meetings there’s 10 or 12 new things worthy of us talking about. And when I see rosters [at other major labels] getting over 200, 300 artists, it’s hard for me to understand how not every label out there has two leaders.

“MY GOAL IS TO DEFINE WARNER RECORDS SO CLEARLY THAT PEOPLE KNOW WHAT’S NOT RIGHT FOR US AS MUCH AS THEY KNOW WHAT IS.” Tom and I complement each other really well because we have completely different skillsets, but also a real appreciation and understanding of what each other does. He’s incredibly talented and he’s got 20 years of experience on me; as a first-time CEO, I have no ego about the fact that I have things to learn.

Plus, we just really get along.

We bond over music, we bond over golf, we bond over a good glass of wine which he’s teaching me all about – I’m becoming a little bit of a white burgundy snob now! Obviously ours is an arranged marriage, so before getting here I considered all of the ways which it could’ve

gone wrong. But not one of those negative possibilities has happened. We’re very fortunate.

Why would you encourage an indie act to sign here, especially – and this is the important, often intangible bit – when it comes to the A&R benefits they will receive?

One trend that I’m seeing is that most of the artists who are getting signed and are successful today are relatively self-contained.

They make projects with very few people; the days of 16 writers on a song are becoming fewer and far between, [as are] artists who completely cut external songs [written entirely by others].

So our job, in nurturing these artists, is to find the few ways in which we can open a door or make a suggestion, those small things that make a massive difference. So if I’m an artist thinking about whether to sign to [Warner Records] and I see a team that was behind the development of Bruno Mars, behind Kendrick Lamar, behind the Weeknd and Maggie Rogers, that might make me think this is a bet worth taking.

Also, you know everybody’s going to make you feel great in the initial meeting, right? If you’re a new artist and the data suggests you’re going to be successful... everyone’s going to say what you want to hear.

The question you have to ask yourself is: Who do you connect with on a personal and philosophical level? Because, trust me, it’s not always going to be a smooth road; no matter how talented you are, you’re going to hit roadblocks. You’re going to put music out that isn’t as well received as you want it to be. And there are labels out there who will, at those tough moments, say goodbye. That’s not us.

We want Warner Records to be the label that you can have a tough conversation with, where 23

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we all sit down and have open dialogue about what went right, what went wrong, how are we going to do it differently the next time – to challenge each other, scream if we have to, whatever it takes. But then hug it out, move forward together, and double and triple down on our efforts.

For us, this is solely about artists.

We’re not here just to break songs.

Let’s talk about your mentors – who has guided your career?

Martin Kierszenbaum was my first mentor. When I graduated college in ‘03 Napster was ramping up, and the record business was collapsing all around. Labels were letting people go; they were certainly not hiring. It was a tough time to enter the business.

I targeted Interscope [where Bay-Schuck had interned a year earlier in the video promo department]. I got a temp job in the international marketing department, which Martin was running. It was my job to be his assistant for a few days, and after those three days, I left. A few weeks later he called and said, “I was impressed by you. I’m hiring for a second assistant, do you want to come in and temp for a little bit longer?”

I came back in for a month, then he hired me full-time and I spent about a year working for him. It was absolutely invaluable experience.

He was both brilliant and very tough. The best compliment I could give him is that I would never have moved as quickly out of being Mike Caren’s assistant [Bay-Schuck’s next job at Atlantic], had I not had that year of crazy training from Martin. He made me into an indispensable assistant. So then Mike – who’s another demanding executive!

– was able to feel confident that I had the admin side of what he needed completely taken care of.

And that meant he was able to

Dua Lipa

give me some A&R training and A&R opportunities a lot sooner than your typical assistant in the music business might get.

How were you inspired by Mike Caren’s style of A&R and how have you since diverged into other approaches?

The best thing Mike taught me, that I still use to this day, was how to get my hands dirty in the record making process, together with the importance of knowing every songwriter, every producer, every publisher. That puzzle of putting the right creative people together, the right songwriter with the right producer and the right artist. That is something that’s not easy to do and it takes a lot of practice.

It’s a problem I find with a lot of young A&R talent out there today: truthfully, they’re better at finding talent than I ever was and ever will be, but they don’t always know what to do with it when they’ve got it in their hands. They don’t know how to negotiate the deal, and they don’t know how to help an artist execute their vision via their music.

To really be a successful A&R person, you need to have that full 360 understanding. If all you’re

doing is being around talent and earning their trust, but not adding valuable additions to their creative process, then you’re not an A&R person – you’re a friend.

Was your next mentor after that John Janick – and was that why you followed him out of Atlantic to Interscope?

Yes. John changed my career.

When I started to work with him at Atlantic, he needed some A&R support on Travie McCoy and Gym Class Heroes; we got to know each other through that and had some success. Then came Bruno Mars.

The best way for me to sum up what John did for me is that he gave me confidence. He made me feel like I was ready for the next level. And he supported me with no questions asked. He was the first boss I had where I felt there was a real friendship building at the same time as the boss-to-A&R [paradigm].

Craig [Kallman] was also an important mentor; I got to know him better during the second half of my Atlantic career.

Craig’s mind and his knowledge of music is extraordinary. If you can get to spend time with Craig when he’s laser-focused 25

on a project, it’s one of the most inspiring and exciting music conversations you can possibly have. And then I was so fortunate that Julie [Greenwald] took me under her wing; she encouraged me, and really taught me how the business works beyond just A&R. When you jumped to Interscope and watched John running that company, what did you learn that you can apply today?

How to build a company for the long term. John did a really good job and showed a lot of patience resisting instant gratification.

He had big shoes to fill at Interscope but he walked into that situation and, right away, he made sure Blurred Lines, Kendrick Lamar and Imagine Dragons were all wildly successful.

Having that level of heat right from the start comes with a lot of pressure. Some things came across our desks during that period, which we could have signed, that might have been successful, but that weren’t [artists who were] going to define Interscope. John showed restraint.

He knew the types of artists that he wanted Interscope to be involved with.

That was a really great thing for me to observe. John’s very direct and honest, and he doesn’t consider himself bigger than the artists. I’ve never worked for [an executive] that wanted to be the ‘star’, but they do exist, and John in particular was really good at always putting the artists first.

It’s well known that you and John didn’t end on the best terms when you left Interscope.

Where are we today?

I guess the direct way to answer that question is there isn’t much of a relationship at all at this time. When we see each other it’s cordial and then we keep it moving. We’re competitors. I certainly have nothing but the greatest respect for him. I hope 26

he feels the same about me, but the friendship part of our relationship is unfortunately not present at the moment.

You reference being ‘competitors’, but I’m sure there are other people you both compete with who you still have an occasional drink with at the end of the day.

I mean, look, John and I had 10 years of non-stop success together at Atlantic then Interscope. The plan was to do this together for as long as we wanted to. And so this [opportunity to join Warner Records] blindsided both of us. I take loyalty very seriously, and so does he. Ultimately the friendship-and-boss dynamic made [my departure] very difficult to navigate.

Through that process [of leaving], my mistake was treating John as a friend first and a boss second; I should have never taken him on the emotional rollercoaster that I did. I told him the minute that I was [offered] this opportunity, but it took me five months to ultimately make the decision. I was staying, I was going, I was staying, I was going: that’s not the way I would do it today, and it’s not the way I would want someone to [deliver that news] to me. At the end of the day, I couldn’t pass up this oncein-a-lifetime opportunity. I keep a real fondness for John and I’m just hopeful that we can find a way back into each other’s lives on a personal level.

There’s a picture on MBW of the three heads of the Swedish majors – Universal, Sony and Warner – all happily stood armin-arm. It’s just not like that in the US business, is it?

When you flip through books on the record industry, they’re filled with pictures of competing executives at dinner together, or at parties together. You’re right:

that’s not the culture of the music business today in a lot of ways.

I don’t fully understand that; it’s a very select and privileged group of leaders that get the chance to do this. If we all got together and talked about what we were experiencing, we’d probably find that we all have a lot in common.

I’m not saying you would ever have utopia or anything, we’re competitors at the end of the day, but it might make this business, overall, a bit more of a buzz.

Record deals are getting more expensive, and you’re signing JV agreements with the likes of Pat The Manager and Katie Vinten / Facet. How do you develop that level of comfort in doing those types of deals?

There are a few parts to that.

It’s true that the modern deal landscape is insane. The price of getting into business with artists these days is not like anything that I’ve seen in my almost 20 years in this [industry].

Data, ultimately, is secondary for our team and our approach.

Data helps point us in the right direction, but if we don’t love it, if we don’t understand it, if we don’t know how to make it better and add more value, then it’s not worth our time. I’m happy to spend [big] when I feel like I’m getting an artist that can change the world, but I’m certainly not enticed to spend money simply because the data is suggesting that there’s something viable there.

The JV thing is a strategy that, for example, Jimmy Iovine employed religiously – his entire business for a while was joint ventures. It helps you get into business with creators, and get into business with the people that attract the best. We’re trying to find the right hybrid of that: let’s have the right ventures, but also sign a lot of things direct and use our A&R ability to develop those acts.

This label needed a lot of new

associations. We needed to position ourselves in a way that showed that we were in touch with what was going on out there. The first JV deal we did was with busbee, may he rest in peace. I believe wholeheartedly in the collision of country with urban, country with pop, country with alternative, and busbee was completely at the forefront of that.

Both of your parents were actors, and your step-father was Leonard Nimoy, better known to millions as Spock. What did growing up in show business teach you?

I learned about the fragility of an artist and how to deal with their insecurities, their confidences and their talents. I also got to see firsthand the kind of effort it takes to become a major force in whatever industry.

In their case, as actors, I saw a relentless and unforgiving approach to work; it consumed them. And I know that the best music artists function in exactly the same way. This is everything to them. The psychology of my awareness of that, how it [affects] my approach to how hard I push somebody; it was all informed by seeing my parents in their career.

What impact does Max Lousada’s role as global CEO of recorded music at Warner have on your job?

Max has had to redefine the new world for Warner Music, and I can always count on him to do that in a way that has complete and total integrity.

I believe one of the things that’s giving [Warner Records] a great competitive advantage right now is that we are only signing things that we feel will help redefine this label.

Max and I call [the opposite of that] ‘fast food’: it’s great for quick revenue, quick chart positions, quick market share – but, more often than not, those quick wins

Saweetie

hurt your long-term reputation.

We’re much more about the artist proposition, being a company that supports career artistry, great music and letting the rest take care of itself.

Warner Music had a summit in Ibiza this summer. Max pulled me

“JOHN [JANICK]’S VERY DIRECT AND HONEST, AND HE DOESN’T CONSIDER HIMSELF BIGGER THAN THE ARTISTS. HE ALWAYS PUTS THE ARTISTS FIRST.” aside and said, ‘I’m really proud of this first year – I know why you had to be as aggressive as you were. But let’s keep making sure that the promises we make to artists are promises we can deliver on.’

To hear that from the guy at the very top was so refreshing and so reaffirming of my decision to join this company.

You’re no fan of focusing on market share?

We all want to grow our market share, so I’m not dismissing its importance. But I do think that if you start making everything about market share, it removes a lot of the joy and creativity from what we do. I recently read a book called The Startup Way by Eric Ries. There’s a line in it that says, “Consumers don’t care about market share. They only care if you’ve made their lives better.”

That’s the perfect description of the job of a record company.

One trend I’m seeing in the business that we really try not to be a part of is this desire to sign [artists] simply so other people can’t. It’s like watching labels become collection agencies, and it’s bad news. I want Warner Records to be a label that cares much more about having the right artists than having the most artists. Going on that journey of hot, cold, hot, cold, hot, cold – that’s just stressful. I’d much rather we were on a steady climb to the top, knowing that we’re positioning Warner to be successful for the next 25 years.

This interview first appeared on MBW in November 2019.

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Ethiopia Habtemariam: ‘This business is changing – if you’re not willing to innovate, you’re gonna be left in the dust.’

Ethiopia Habtemariam remembers well when hip-hop wasn’t hot. In fact, she doesn’t have to try very hard at all.

The night before we sit down with Habtemariam in her office in the Capitol Tower, Hollywood, we share dinner with a fellow highflying exec in the US business, who delivers a jaw-dropping stat. “You want to know how much this business has changed in the past five years?” he asks.

“Everyone’s hip-hop, hip-hop, hiphop now – but check the record: in 2013, there wasn’t a single black [lead] artist at No.1 on the Billboard Hot 100 all year.”

We checked the record.

Unbelievably, it’s true.

For Berkeley, CA-born, Atlantaraised Habtemariam, this period is still very much fresh in the memory. The exec was promoted to President of Motown Records in 2014, after three years as its EVP. At the same time, Universal Music Group boss Sir Lucian Grainge announced that Motown would be moving back to Los Angeles as part of the rejuvenated Capitol Music Group (CMG). As Motown President, Habtemariam initially continued in a dual role – also holding the position of Head of Urban Music at Universal Music Publishing Group – before leaving that gig behind to focus fully on Motown and a larger executive role within CMG. At UMPG, where she’d worked since 2003, Habtemariam signed the likes of Ludacris, Justin Bieber, J. Cole, Chris Brown, Ester Dean, Hit Boi and Miguel, playing an instrumental role in the increasing influence of hip-hop on mainstream US pop hits.

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But when it came to running a record label, she found a very different creative ecosystem at play.

“I’m not going to lie: my first year as President here was tough,” she says today. “Streaming hadn’t kicked in, and we had these fantastic artists, but I just couldn’t get any momentum.

“Even having a No.1 record at Urban Radio didn’t equate into any kind of real sales.

There’d be that quarterly [corporate] check-in, and you were looking at your P&L, thinking ‘f*ck’, knowing you’d be held accountable.”

You already know the rest of the story.

Habtemariam wasn’t out of step with public trends – the music business was.

As streaming exploded in the United States, so hip-hop became the biggest genre in

the land, claiming, according to BuzzAngle, over a quarter of all on-demand audio streams.

Now firmly established as a jewel in the Capitol Music Group setup, Motown is a key player in both CMG’s resurgence and the

blockbuster success of modern US hip-hop.

Habtemariam, alongside CMG topper Steve Barnett, led a transformative partnership with Atlanta-based Quality Control back in 2015, which has reaped huge dividends via releases from Migos, Lil Baby, City Girls and Lil Yachty, to name a few.

Motown’s own roster today also includes priority acts like BJ The Chicago Kid, Chaz French and James Davis.

Habtemariam’s certainly come a long way from the start of her career, interning at Elektra in her teenage hometown of Atlanta, having been inspired to enter the record business by LaFace Records’ head of promotion, Shanti Das...

You’re fighting a fervent independent artist scene out there. What’s the value of a major record company in 2019?

Good question: I remember when I was just working in publishing, before I made the transition into a label, I even questioned this notion a bit myself.

During my time as a publisher, I also did some management for Keri Hilson, who I signed as a writer, and I had some frustrations with the label system not moving quickly enough.

I’ve since learned that the value of a record label honestly comes down to its ideas and a team around the world that can execute your vision. With Migos, for instance; since we stepped in, what we’ve been able to do for them and their positioning, working with QC, has been game-changing. Our brands team here is incredible. We get to strategize and really figure out how to grow them and take things to the next level.

A big part of that is global.

We’re always thinking about streaming, how it connects the world; how people in Africa are listening to the same music we

are the moment it drops here.

These kids, worldwide, are on the same wavelength – we have to strategize around that.

Are artists noticing the value that major labels bring?

There’s power in being signed today. And I’m feeling it more now than ever, because even some of these big artists who had the ‘f*ck major labels’ attitude for a minute are coming back now – because they appreciate the power and expertise that is here: the offices in all the markets, the intricate planning, the timeline of execution, and the artist development – knowing who the right people to connect you with are, creatively and business-wise.

“THE VALUE OF A RECORD LABEL ULTIMATELY COMES DOWN TO ITS IDEAS.” You say you had frustrations with major labels not moving quickly enough in the past. What did that teach you?

That getting past those frustrations is all a matter of communication. Almost everyone is working in music because they love it – at least the people I work with. If you can acknowledge that when communicating with whomever you’re dealing with, it helps them buy into your [project] and become advocates for it. And then you can execute a great plan.

You don’t hear things like ‘this is the precedent for how we do things’ [in major labels] so much anymore. This business is growing and changing all the time, and if you’re not willing to change and innovate on the way, you’re gonna be left in the dust.

The good thing about arriving

here [Capitol Music Group] at the beginning of the rebuilding process [in 2014], was that we were all basically starting from scratch. Steve, Michelle [Jubelirer], myself; we were really given the opportunity to build something fresh, make new and innovative kinds of deals with artists, labels and other partners.

It’s allowed us to be much more nimble, and do things differently.

That Hot 100 stat from 2013 – with zero lead black artists at No.1 in a year – is shocking and fascinating. Was the industry that much more controlled even that short time ago?

In a word: yes, but, I was having a lot of success as a music publisher at that time and was almost shielded from that reality.

I was working with some of music’s most talented and successful writers and producers, black talent who were writing a lot of pop hits.

So I never would have believed that black performers would be marginalized in that way. And then I started working on the label side and I got my first taste of, ‘Oh no. This artist and that R&B or hip-hop record aren’t going to get to No.1 without certain changes,’ or, in the case of R&B, without a certain feature.

It was almost as if there wasn’t the confidence that black artists could get to the top. And if you don’t believe it can happen, it’s not going to happen.

Then, in my first year as President of Motown, it was getting to the point that I was struggling to justify the investment in the roster because it wasn’t turning into anything immediately [lucrative]. But we always felt certain that, culturally, [urban] music was permeating and connecting to people, whether it be through the mix tape circuit, or through platforms like My MixTapez, Audiomack, etc.

Then, when Spotify, Apple 29

Music and the others really kicked in, we started to see the data coming in and found that black music had not only permeated globally, but that the demand was growing rapidly. That’s when there was a real shift, when our industry realized that black artists could have massive success around the world. Look at what our partnership with QC has spawned globally: Three young artists from Atlanta – Migos – have become worldwide superstars and cultural influencers by staying completely true to themselves.

Their success is not only a testament to their talent and charisma, but to our partnership with the QC team and all of our belief that this would happen.

It might seem obvious now, but we had to push through a lot of obstacles along the way, which is okay. I like proving naysayers wrong, and I’m unshakable when I believe in a particular artist and their music. That’s never going to change. I’m taking great pride in leading Motown at this particular time, as it reminds me of our history; how Motown started blazing this trail in the 1960s and has continued to do so in every 30

Photo: Getty Images/Charley Gallay

With Ashlee Simpson Ross at the InStyle Badass Women Dinner in L.A (2018)

decade since.

[2019 was] our 60th anniversary, and I’ve directed a re-branding of the label’s image and messaging for the 21st century, reminding the world of Motown’s tremendous legacy. I can’t wait for everyone to see the incredible documentary – Hitsville: The Making of Motown. It’s not only one of the greatest stories in music and culture, but there are so many parallels with what is going on today. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the past when it comes to knowing what can be achieved.

Look at how these young black artists from Detroit created music that transcended so many barriers – racial, social, economic – and united people around the world while becoming superstars in the process.

How do you make the most of this moment, and prepare for the future?

Every [major label] should be signing diverse music. It shouldn’t just be pop, or dance, or hiphop, or R&B, or whatever the dominant genre is at the time.

Even now, when people talk

about hip-hop’s dominance, I’m the one saying, ‘Okay guys, let’s not act like there won’t be some incredible alternative pop, or that the grunge sound might not come back.’ At its core, music is about an emotional connection between an artist and the audience. I rarely hear artists and musicians label their music within a specific genre; they all create from a pure place of emotion and feel.

We have to recognize that genres are blending more than ever before; look at Halsey and how broad her palette is, or how a young British artist like Ella Mai creates an R&B record like Boo’d Up and has a huge pop success.

As creative executives we have to remember that at its core, music is about artistry and talent. We can’t put it in a box. Musically, you don’t always have to rely on a reference from the past to see what’s possible in the future.

It’s about having great A&R people that understand all kinds of music. That’s the core of it. I hate that people today sometimes look at [genres] like trends, because it means that at some point, someone’s gonna say, ‘Oh, [that genre is] falling off.’ That’s not the reality of how humans experience music – which is affected by our mood and the reflection of the world around us, a million different things.

I’ve heard some backlash to the urban / hip-hop ‘resurgence’, like, ‘Oh shit, there’s no room left for us now.’ And I’m the one saying, ‘No, that’s not it at all.’ But I can’t deny that it’s satisfying for me to say that those guys [who suppressed hip-hop], they neglected a space in music for a really long time.

And they were wrong.

‘Urban music’ is a tricky term in the modern industry. What’s your view of that debate?

I remember when I first got promoted to Head of Urban Music [at UMPG] and a few

Who are your mentors?

The first person I have to mention is Clarence Avant, who I’ve been blessed to know. He’s been like a second father to me. I met him when we administered his catalog [at UMPG]. When I transitioned into the label and I was having that tough time at first, Clarence took me to lunch, and said: ‘A legacy like Motown will always be tough. Don’t compare yourself to the past.

They tell you about all the great shit, but they don’t tell you about the records that weren’t hits.’

Shanti Das at LaFace Records changed the course of my life.

She provided me with the opportunity to intern there and that changed everything. Another woman I owe a lot to is LaRonda Sutton, who created L.A. Reid’s publishing company, Hitco, and introduced me to the world of music publishing. She noticed my talent early on and I learned so much from her on my way up.

And through my whole career, I’ve always looked up to Jon [Platt] and have so much respect and reverence for him and what he’s achieved. Not just in his career, but the example he sets as a human being.

We’re all blessed in this business to work with really talented people, but it’s all of our

With James Davis and co. at the Billboard 2018 R&B Hip-Hop Power Players event in New York

responsibility to not get too lost or caught up in the power. You can’t allow your ego to get out of control and forget what the purpose of your being here is.

“I’M UNSHAKABLE WHEN I BELIEVE IN AN ARTIST AND THEIR MUSIC.” Can you give more detail on why you found running the label tough in your early couple of years?

There was a lot of instability around Motown. There were so many different structures we had to work within, and, frankly, it wasn’t getting the focus or support that it needed to succeed. Things really changed for the better when we relaunched Motown as a flagship label [at CMG]. I can’t say enough about Steve [Barnett]’s support and commitment to Motown as a thriving and important front-line label. It’s made such a difference, not only to Motown, but to CMG’s overall commitment to black

Photo: Getty Images/Theo Wargo

people called me. One said, ‘Don’t let them put that in your title. Everyone that you’ve signed and all your rising producers are writing the biggest pop hits.’ And I was like, ‘Damn. You’re right!’

But then I spoke to other people who said: ‘E, what’s so wrong with that title? If you don’t embrace it, someone else will.’

So ‘urban music’ or ‘black music’, it’s really not about the terminology we use. What’s important is that there are opportunities for people in this industry who look like me, and that they aren’t limited or marginalized in any way.

music that hasn’t existed at this level for decades.

Like all of us, I had my own personal experience with Motown. My parents are Ethiopian, and I’m first generation Ethiopian-American. My mom loved the Jackson Five, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie and would play that music all the time. As a kid, for me, I was a huge fan of that Boyz II Men, Michael Bivins era of Motown.

And you can’t forget Rick James, Teena Marie and DeBarge.

Everyone has a certain Motown era that means so much to them. But people often have this picture of Motown that’s rooted in the past. We certainly honor and treasure Motown’s legacy, but my job is to also help the world experience Motown in the present and future.

Let’s talk about Quality Control.

Where are they going to sit as a brand in the history of the recording music business?

They are disruptors and innovators, people who have really changed the game and inspire so many young people.

I think one of their long-term goals is to be remembered in the same way as a Def Jam, or a 31

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Do you have any thoughts on how you break personalities, not just tracks, in this modern era?

It’s a challenge, but it comes down to storytelling; how do we take advantage of all these different platforms to really tell the world who an artist is?

You need to be consistent with that story and tell it through your music and across all of the platforms and mediums we now have to connect with people. And the story has to be your truth.

Now more than ever, we can feel when something’s contrived and not authentic.

What were you like at school and how has your personality affected your career?

Have you ever done the exercise of going back and looking at photos of yourself when you were at school? I have, and it’s like, ‘Wow. I was fearless as f*ck!’

Like, I had no fear – at all. Any idea I had, I followed through, and that’s a quality I always draw upon in my adult life and career: Pursuing dreams and ideas that some people might think are out of the box.

Growing up as the daughter of African parents, specifically, they [typically] only want you to be a doctor or a scientist or a lawyer.

With Migos, Steve Barnett and QC’s founders – Kevin ‘Coach K’ Lee and Pierre ‘Pee’ Thomas

My father, a scientist, has his PhD, my mom has her Masters. But I was like, ‘I’ve found my passion and my love: it’s music.’ It was a quite unique situation that my parents supported me in it. They saw how passionate I was and created some protection around it for me.

My parents are very kind, good human beings, and I’m an extension of them. It’s tough to be that in this music business at certain times; kindness can be mistaken for weakness. But again, I think we all have an opportunity in how we live our lives to set a new example, perhaps as a positive reaction to things we may have seen ourselves over the years.

Have you ever felt that being a woman, and/or a woman of color, has resulted in you being treated unfairly?

Yes – I’m sure of it. I’ve learned a lot from those experiences, and I’ve decided not to let them hold me back from what I’m here to do. But it wasn’t until later in my career that I understood that these barriers even existed.

When I was younger in my career, I was naïve to a lot of

Photo: Lester Cohen/Getty Images

Motown, or a Capitol. It has been so rewarding and so much fun to work alongside them.

Pee and Coach love music, love their artists, have an incredible work ethic and are committed to greatness. They’ve forged their own paths and have created something special out of Atlanta.

Their success proves that you can go and build your own thing without limits.

We are extremely focused on building out [QC] globally. We recently went on a roadshow around Europe and we could all see how potent Quality Control has become in these different markets.

things. This probably worked in my favor, because it allowed me to keep my head down and focus on the work.

Also, growing up in Atlanta, I was able to see a lot of successful black people, so I never questioned the potential to achieve my dreams. There were so many great role models to inspire me, and I feel very fortunate to have grown up there.

I love being a woman. I love being a black woman. That’s a big part of who I am, and I love that my personal life and career experiences inform my abilities and success in this business.

If we gave you a magic wand to change one thing about the music business today, what would it be and why?

Simple: for people to truly honor the music. I would immediately get rid of anyone that’s only operating from a place of ego or with bad intentions; get out of the f*cking way, you know?

Music is the most powerful force we have in this world to bring us together, and that needs to be respected by all of us.

This interview first appeared on MBW in June 2019.

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34

Danny Rukasin and Brandon Goodman: ‘The speed of this has been pretty mind-blowing.’

Billie Eilish is a cultural phenomenon. The singer and her songwriter brother, Finneas O’Connell, have created a debut body of work that transcends genres, reflecting the vast multiartist listening habits of the music streaming generation – while at the same time tearing apart the notion of the album’s death in the age of the playlist.

Debut album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? was largely recorded in a bedroom studio in Eilish’s childhood LA home. On Apple Music, on day

Zealand, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, the Netherlands, Austria and Belgium.

LA-based Danny Rukasin (pictured, left) co-manages Billie Eilish alongside Brandon Goodman (pictured, right).

Rukasin initially became friends with Finneas after the songwriter sent him an email about a garage pop band he was in – asking Rukasin to connect him with a producer.

Finneas had, obviously enough, also been writing songs with his

“BILLIE WOULD HAVE HAD SUCCESS REGARDLESS, AS SHE’S AN INCREDIBLY UNIQUE ARTIST. BUT WE’VE SEEN SO MUCH VALUE [WORKING WITH INTERSCOPE].” one of its release (March 29, 2019) via Darkroom/Interscope, more than 81% of the LP’s duration was played through by its listeners, a stat not to be taken lightly, considering a recent study that suggested only 16% of UK adults listen to an LP from start to finish.

A week before that, the album had already crushed the all-time global ‘pre-add’ record (800,000) on Apple Music, before it topped the Billboard 200 Album chart with 307,000 equivalent sales in its first week.

When We Fall Asleep...’s cultural impact has also spread across borders, hitting No.1 in the UK, Ireland, Australia, New

sister, Billie Eilish, including debut track Ocean Eyes, which he sent to Rukasin in 2016.

“Ocean Eyes drove all of us to take notice,” remembers Rukasin.

“The next day I was with [Finneas] and his family and with Billie, meeting everybody and talking about what they wanted to do.

The song had already crossed into viral territory overnight.”

Ocean Eyes has since racked up over 100 million views on YouTube. Next single Six Feet Under built on the hype, before Bellyache was released by Darkroom/Interscope in March 2017. Working with the likes of John Janick at Interscope, Justin 35

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Lubliner at Darkoom and live agencies Paradigm (US) and Coda (UK), and with Eilish approving every decision, what followed was a highly calculated, singleby-single release strategy with accompanying merch drops, visuals and videos, and a precision touring and radio plan.

Indeed, industry watchers suggest Eilish’s approach to US radio has torn up the industry rulebook, and may have singlehandedly redefined what constitutes an airplay ‘hit’.

Here, Goodman and Rukasin take us behind the scenes of how Eilish’s team built a truly global alt-pop superstar...

First things first: How did you start working with Billie Eilish?

Danny Rukasin: Billie writes everything with her brother, Finneas O’Connell. Years ago he reached out to me about working with a producer client of mine. He sent me a very funny, sort of cavalier email. It caught my attention as it said ‘Eric Motherfucking Palmquist’, which was hard to ignore!

I listened to the music that he was writing and producing and I thought it exceptional [especially] at his age, at 17, or 16. I connected him with my client and they ended up working together on four songs. Over time, Finneas and I became friends, and I guided him a little bit with what he was doing with his band – a local kind of garage-pop band.

And then when he kicked off what he was doing with his sister, the music he was making perked up my ears.

Ocean Eyes drove all of us to take notice. The next day I was with [Finneas] and his family with Billie, meeting everybody, talking about what they wanted to do.

The song had already crossed into viral territory overnight.

We discussed whether or not this was something Billie was really interested in doing or just a

Billie Eilish

hobby, and we got to know and understand Billie. It was still early stages, but she had a vision of how she wanted what she was doing to be put out in the world.

What are your thoughts on the notion of an album in the streaming age?

BG: Our entire team are aware of the importance of timing when

bunch of great songs packaged together. The album was created with the intent to be consumed as a whole, and I think that may have become an after-thought for some artists in this single-focused streaming era.

DR: That’s always been Brandon and my approach to artist development: releasing an

“WE GOT TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND BILLIE. IT WAS STILL EARLY STAGES, BUT SHE HAD A VISION OF HOW SHE WANTED WHAT SHE WAS DOING TO BE PUT OUT IN THE WORLD.” releasing new music and the importance of additional content to support those releases. [In Billie’s case], we were aware that the timing had to be right for an album and the demand had to be there for fans to consume an entire album.

It was really important for Billie and Finn that, when they did create an album, it was a cohesive body of work and not just a

artist’s music where we’re always thinking about how the next piece of music is going to be consumed, and how we get to, not necessarily a final destination, but a larger moment with an album. The visuals and everything they were crafting, because it was sort of insular between Billie and Finn, and Billie was really driving all of the visual concepts herself, there was a natural thematic 37

DR: A lot of artists can achieve great success without labels, and then there are artists who also can benefit greatly from being on a label and having a larger team around them to help build and scale their success.

I love the DIY ethos and retaining the flexibility and control over the project internally, but if the artist and team are aligned, do their job efficiently, and trust the vision, you can have the best of all worlds and fully justify the label partnership.

Finneas

through-line that we felt fans would really understand. They could see [each] new release and understand it was all part of one thing, a cohesive vision.

team on the agency side with Sara Bollwinkel and Tom Windish at Paradigm in the US and Mike Malak and Sol Parker at Coda in the UK.

You signed with Interscope in 2017. How has it worked with a major label in the picture?

DR: With any label deal, there’s always a negotiation period, but this wasn’t a very difficult one. It obviously takes time because we want to make sure Billie is taken care of, [but] Interscope and Darkroom have been amazing partners from the start, and all the way through.

The team that we have built around Billie is one of the best we’ve ever worked with – a family.

We basically see and talk to each other more than we do anyone else in our lives.

What are your thoughts on the value of artists working with labels versus doing everything themselves?

BG: With the internet and social media, the tools are out there for independent artists to promote their music and brand more than there ever was before.

Also, there are so many unique ways an artist can build a base without a label. However, I think that Danny and I both feel that our team at Darkroom and Interscope have played a huge role in Billie’s success.

I do think that Billie would have had success regardless, as she’s an incredibly talented and unique one-of-a-kind artist. But it’s undeniable that we have seen so much value globally by having such a powerful system in place of people and partners that have worked tirelessly alongside us to make Billie arguably the most talked-about new artist.

BG: Danny and I both feel really lucky to work with such a great team. Everyone has their role and excels at what they do. Not just with the label, but also with the amazing partners we have in our publicist, Alexandra Baker at High Rise, as well as our great 38

What has it been like working with Interscope boss John Janick throughout the process of breaking Billie?

DR: John is one of the best. He has experience from building a small bedroom record label [Fueled By Ramen] and making serious impact, then working up the ranks within a major label system, then heading major label systems, and coming over to Interscope.

John understands that artist development is a puzzle that you need to put together over time, [and] how to develop an artist from a very small level to a much larger level.

He understands how everything needs to be tied together to properly surround and showcase the music, and the [importance of taking] shots at certain things that may not necessarily pan out.

He also brings in really amazing people to execute that vision. He’s been extremely supportive and easy to deal with at every stage.

BG: It has been amazing to work with John. He understands the importance of building a culture around an artist, [and] that developing an artist the right way takes time and cannot be rushed.

We really appreciate his support, guidance, and the resources he has provided for us and Billie to help build her base and see her creative vision through.

DR: John did it from day one [at FBR] with bands like Less Than Jake and Fall Out Boy and Panic!

At The Disco and Paramore. He’s taken artists that might be part of a subset, genre-wise, and helped those artists grow into much larger [acts]. He recognizes and understands how you scale an artist and how you break them, whatever genre they might be in.

Likewise, you’ve worked closely with Darkroom. How has that label impacted on Billie’s development as an artist?

DR: We are in a unique situation as we have a major label behind BIllie but it’s actually under a joint venture with Darkroom, run by an amazing up-and-coming executive in Justin Lubliner. He has been part of the team since day one when he signed Billie to the label, and instrumental to the success of the project.

He is also very independentspirited and fights for his artists.

Justin understands the very careful, but impactful, artist development process like someone who’s been doing it for a lot longer than his age would suggest. He’s also built great relationships throughout the industry and has been able to champion Billie and help build awareness every step of the way.

BG: Justin is a machine. He is amazing at utilizing all of the resources around him to make the most out of every opportunity.

He’s creative and forward thinking in his approach to artist development and has done an incredible job at putting together meaningful campaigns and forming long-lasting partnerships with the various digital service providers so they can be part of the development story of an artist like Billie.

Billie Eilish is being called ‘the most talked-about teen on the planet’. There’s obviously a lot of

Billie Eilish

pressure that comes with a tag like that – how do you manage the pressures on artists in the always-on social media age?

DR: The growth we’ve seen in getting to this point, with headlines like that, is definitely

“INTERSCOPE AND DARKROOM HAVE BEEN AMAZING PARTNERS. THE TEAM AROUND BILLIE IS ONE OF THE BEST WE’VE EVER WORKED WITH.” not what we [envisioned] to happen so quickly. We knew this was going to grow, but the speed of it has been pretty mindblowing.

For someone like Billie, she takes it in her stride. She’s generally figured out how to navigate it; there’s never going to be a perfect way of living

a normal life at this level. It’s always a challenge to try to balance regular life with what’s going on around you - but she’s incredibly resilient and handles it very maturely. And for a 17-year-old, she’s incredible. We as management have tried to filter a lot of things, but she’s got an amazing family around her; her mom and her dad and her brother who all pull it together and have different roles in her life and on tour. They really help keep things in perspective.

BG: Billie’s very fortunate because she has such an incredibly supportive family that is with her at all times experiencing this journey with her. Having a great support system in place is essential for any young artist.

If there’s one thing you could change about the music business, what would it be?

BG: I don’t know if there’s anything I would change, necessarily, but it’s great that there are new ways to release and promote music to allow artists to reach listeners. The ability to 39

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receive so much data in real time helps us better understand the growth of a song or artist in real time. That’s really been beneficial in helping guide us in making better decisions in regards to our strategy for releasing new music, touring, and radio.

DR: The music business now is in one of the best states its ever been in. The market and the ability for people to consume music is at its greatest in a long time. Somebody made a point four or five years ago that the streaming services would basically make music a utility [because streaming] gives you the ability to listen to whatever you want, whenever you want.

I believe music, someone’s art, means a lot more to a lot of people than simplifying it that way, but I think [streaming has] really helped that connection grow as well. And of course there still is the ability to own something, so physical records are still great as they are collector’s items; even for an artist like Billie who’s such a large streaming artist, her fans love the physical products as extensions of her culture and art.

The one thing that probably would be great to see, as a continual change, is how songwriters, performers, and rights-owners are being taken care of with performance and songwriting royalties, or how they are being paid.

There needs to be a better operation and calculation in which people feel like they’re being fairly compensated. It’s one of the more hot button issues in the industry right now and organizations like SoundExchange, the publishing companies, Performance Rights Organizations, broadcasters and streaming services are all working diligently on.

That said, it’s a much more complicated and delicate process

than looking at one headline or reading one article, or thinking it’s an easy thing to solve.

There’s an argument about the notion of the album being dead in the streaming age.

Billie’s album has kind of proved that argument wrong, to a certain degree.

DR: Streaming is at an all-time high, and music consumption is hitting a critical mass, to some degree. While playlists drive single consumption, albums can be put together in a specific way where, if you have the right artist and if it’s the right time, albums become a new ‘playlist’.

That’s something that Billie and Finneas were thinking about

BG: I think people need to remember that Billie was releasing music for three and a half years before she released a full length album. We waited until the demand was there for an album to be consumed by her fans as we continued to build the story of her as an artist.

Equally as important is that her and Finneas focused on making a cohesive body of work, an album of songs that were meant to be consumed together. They did not just want to release a bunch of songs that did not creatively fit together.

Does the concept of a bigger production next time round – in a bigger, multi-million dollar

“THE MUSIC BUSINESS NOW IS IN ONE OF THE BEST STATES IT’S EVER BEEN IN. THE MARKET AND THE ABILITY FOR PEOPLE TO CONSUME MUSIC IS AT ITS GREATEST IN A LONG TIME.” when they made this record. They were thinking, make a playlist of our songs that fit together. I think that as fans continue to discover artists, and artists do a good job of hooking them into their world, albums can be just as big as they once were.

Beyond the streaming and physical sales side, we are in such an amazing place with the radio story that we’ve built the last eight months or so, where we have multiple songs working well on multiple formats.

That is really a testament to having the right music with the full support from fans, and be able to bring all of that to radio and work with the teams nationally and locally as mutually beneficial partners. SiriusXM, iHeart, Amp, etc have all done such a great job understanding the full artistic vision and helping to amplify that.

recording studio – appeal to Billie and Finneas at all?

BG: Billie and Finn have had plenty of opportunities to work in any studio [out there], but they prefer to work at home where they feel the most creative and comfortable. They have recorded and written almost everything in Finn’s bedroom studio. They don’t need or want to work in some big recording studio.

DR: The magic they have with their home and creative life is something really important to their process because it truly keeps them inspired. Billie has been able to walk five steps and record that one thing that was in her brain at [any given] time.

That’s just the way their creative process works.

This interview first appeared on MBW in February 2019.

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“EVERYTHING I WENT THROUGH IS AN EXPERIENCE OTHER WOMEN COULD LEARN FROM.”

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Jody Gerson: ‘I have to tell my story authentically.’

“I can’t believe you haven’t heard about celery juice yet...”

Jody Gerson is tipping us on the next big thing. Bearing in mind she’s been ahead of the curve on everyone from Billie Eilish to SZA, Post Malone and Alicia Keys during her career, we’re listening.

(The radiance of our skin, we’re promised, will thank us.)

Philadelphia-born Gerson, a mother of two teenagers and one older son, thinks a lot about making the most of every hour.

She wakes at 5.30 am each morning “just to have some time to myself” – an indicative trait of someone who says she was never in the top 10 smartest girls at her school, but who keenly studied her way to over-achievement.

Whatever Gerson’s secret is (and we’ll wager there’s a lot more to it than celery juice) it’s working.

Since she took over as Chairman and CEO of Universal Music Publishing Group in January 2015, the company’s annual revenues have grown by some 40%, surpassing a major milestone in 2018 by topping $1 billion for the first time.

Gerson’s professional highlights over the past four years have included signing of some of the biggest new talent such as Eilish, Halsey, Post Malone, SZA, Rosalía and Quavo, plus Tobias Jesso Jr, Shawn Mendes and Ariana Grande – in addition to deals for established acts like Prince, Elton John, Barry Gibb, Paul Simon, Randy Newman, Carly Simon, Bruce Springsteen and Jack White.

Despite her history in A&R, Gerson is at pains to note that UMPG shouldn’t only be judged by its active roster: she is particularly proud of the company’s technology

advancements, for one thing.

“When I first took the job, there was a distrust between songwriters and publishers here, so we made sure our system was completely transparent,” she says.

UMPG has also doubled down on film and TV music under Gerson’s leadership, via deals with the likes of Lionsgate, Paramount, Disney Europe (and numerous other territories), Universal Pictures, Warner Bros. Pictures, MGM, HBO, Amazon and more – steady income sources which Gerson says provide “cover” for A&R risk-taking at the company.

Ultimately, though, Gerson says the biggest strides at UMPG under her leadership have been made by “betting on talent and betting on songs” and “running this company with integrity – people out there believe us.”

Having graduated from Northwestern University, Gerson began her career at Chappell Music in New York in an entrylevel position. After rising to A&R and song plugger, she then bagged a job at EMI Music Publishing where she stayed for 17 years, serving as head of the company’s East Coast publishing division and then revitalizing and leading its West Coast division. At EMI, she signed Dallas Austin, Jermaine Dupri, Alicia Keys, Norah Jones and Enrique Iglesias, among others. Gerson then moved to Sony/ATV for the next seven years of her career, where she rose to co-President and signed Lady Gaga, Mac Miller, Pitbull and more.

This all meant that, for close to quarter of a century, Gerson worked under Martin Bandier, before she left in 2015 to join Sir Lucian Grainge at Universal Music Group – where Gerson also sits on

the executive board.

MBW recently sat down in Gerson’s Santa Monica office to dig into her life, her motivations, and her determination to make a material difference in the lives of songwriters...

You’re the first female boss of a multinational music company.

What do you think about that?

I’m proud to be the first, but it’s part of my mission not to be the only one. I vacillate between [liking] being thought of as a ‘female Chairman’ and just a ‘Chairman’, but at the end of the day, I’m both. I feel a great responsibility to do right by other women. That’s why [in 2018] after the Grammys and with the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative [which showed how poorly women are represented in music], we created She Is The Music, a nonprofit to increase the number of women working in [the industry].

I feel like I have to give back to the business, and I feel that I also have to tell my story authentically.

Everything that I went through to get me here is an experience that other women could have, or that they could learn from.

It’s important to me to help push women into senior positions. It’s very natural for women to say to themselves, ‘Wait, how am I gonna do this? I have three kids at home and I’m divorced. I’m this and that – how am I gonna manage it?’ You kind of have to go, ‘Yes, you can do this.’ After five years in this job, I feel very comfortable and very competent.

You haven’t always felt that level of comfort as a Chairman?

When I took this job, I had to 43

With SZA

step into my power; I had to kind of fake it until I really felt it. Five years later, I am in my power – because the proof [of UMPG’s success] is there to see.

I’m very proud of what I do. I took my mom with me to see Elton John recently. And she said to me, ‘It’s so nice that you’re treated kindly – people hug you!’

She was a stay-at-home mom who, for my entire life, had this idea that I was something special.

Now she gets to see me in action.

I love that so much.

Your mom always thought you were something special: was that an uplifting gift or pressurizing?

It wasn’t pressurizing in the way my kids are pressured today, that’s for sure. I grew up with my parents in the suburbs of Philadelphia. My mother got married when she was 19 and had me when she was 20. My dad was 25. My mom went to one semester at Temple University and worked in a department 44

With Justin Bieber

store for, like, two days, but then married my dad and he supported her from there.

Generationally, that’s kind of the way it was.

I was precocious in that I was very tuned-in to my surroundings from when I was really young.

We led a funny life, because much of it was very suburban: we lived on a cul-de-sac, were close to our neighbors, and yet my dad and my grandfather owned a nightclub [The Latin Casino] over the bridge in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. And every Sunday night, my brother and I would go to a matinée show, and see everyone from Frank Sinatra to Richard Pryor to The Supremes to The Temptations to every comedian you could ever imagine.

I always thought that it was my dad that really gave me my confidence – but now I’m realizing more that it was my mother. My dad gave me this sense that life is held in the balance. He was this largerthan-life, fun character, and my

mom was fully dependent upon him. From a young age, I felt that I needed to be in control – that somebody had to be the grownup in the household, and that was me.

What were you like when you were younger?

I was very ambitious. The idea of having a successful career was important to me. That wasn’t a rebellion against my mom staying at home – it came from this appreciation that someone had to take care of things. My mother saw something in me; she took me out of public school and put me in an all-girls private school. It was a great, great education.

I was the first person in my family who went to college. I was an overachiever but I knew my standing: I could still name you 10 girls at school who were way smarter than me. I wasn’t in the 10 that didn’t have to study to succeed.

Did you get in trouble?

So as long as I beat my father home at night, I wouldn’t get into trouble. The advice that my father gave me was: ‘I care about smart or dumb; I don’t care about legal or illegal. If you’re dumb enough to get caught, shame on you.’ I wasn’t a goody two-shoes; I just never got caught.

How much uncertainty was there in your father’s business?

It was a purely cash business, so I always knew there was danger. I remember when his accountant came for my dad to pay taxes; he would literally have to chase my father down. It’s funny because in some ways, maybe that’s why I work for a company and never started my own business. My dad was always juggling. I don’t want to juggle; I like stability.

What I didn’t predict was that it would all go away, which it ultimately did. When they legalized gambling in Atlantic City, they had to close the nightclub. My dad made it a disco for a couple years, but really, [my parents] lost all their money.

Maybe I was always waiting for that other shoe to drop.

Going to the nightclub, seeing those artists, geniuses like Richard Pryor, did that have an impact on you?

Mm-hmm. I saw some of the greatest entertainers of the time.

But what was actually more profound for me was being backstage, observing what makes artists tick, how you [encourage] them to go on stage when right before the show they’re having a panic attack or freaking out.

It all made me acutely aware of anxiety and acutely aware of fame, and what fame does to a person. I knew very early on I wasn’t going to be a performer, but I was always fascinated by talent.

And the famously unstable nature of talent...

I really understand that well.

There was this unspoken darkness lurking backstage, something I never really understood as a child. I was this young girl who had free rein around a nightclub – I mean, total free rein. I can still visualize the whole backstage area, running around with my brother, but we always knew that if you knocked on the wrong door, there could be danger waiting behind it. It prepared me well, in a way, for being a woman in this business.

Have you seen motivations in other highly successful people in the music business that concern you?

That is very creative wording! I will say that ego is a dangerous thing.

When someone starts to buy into the idea of ‘power’ it can be quite dangerous, and that’s why I think

“LUCIAN BELIEVED I COULD BE CHAIRMAN BEFORE I BELIEVED I COULD BE CHAIRMAN.” I protected myself early on in this job. My definition of power was always the ability to empower others and run a company where I am not sitting in my ivory tower.

Let’s talk about the modern industry. What are the biggest challenges currently facing songwriters and publishers?

Fair pay. On digital platforms, songwriters and publishers must find the right balance between wanting to be on the front of the platforms’ billboards, on one hand, and making sure that songwriters and publishers are also getting the pay they are due.

A really big challenge today is educating songwriters so that they don’t just settle for the billboard as opposed to the pay.

It’s dangerous to simply allow certain companies, who are building their platforms off songs and music, to lessen music’s value.

Another really big challenge today is how to ensure that what you might call the ‘middle class’ of songwriters make a good living. That’s really important to me. I take on that responsibility daily –including not only new music, but also by making sure that legacy songs and legacy talent keep being introduced to new audiences.

What are your thoughts on the recent appeal against the new CRB rates from the likes of Spotify, Amazon and others?

It is critical that innovation be completely interlocked with fair compensation for songwriters.

It’s a symbiotic relationship; it should work for everyone. We want the streaming platforms to be successful. They should want songwriters to be successful, too.

Together, we all benefit.

The DSPs have gained tremendous value from music.

These are businesses that are built on songs and would not exist without them. Without question, they owe their success to songwriters.

Do I wish these platforms accepted the new, better rates for songwriters? Of course. Would that have been the right thing to do? Absolutely. By appealing the ruling, they fail to acknowledge that songwriters need to be paid fairly.

I applaud how both publishers and songwriters are rallying behind such a critical cause.

This is something that we do every day at UMPG: fight for songwriters’ rights. It’s one of our central missions and we stand with songwriters who are taking action and speaking out.

Once that issue is put to bed, are you optimistic the writer rates 45

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will continue to climb as the decades roll on?

I am. There’s still so much to do, but songwriters were galvanized into action on the [Music Modernization Act] – that process really pulled the whole music community together. One of the things I saw before I got here is that we were airing our dirty laundry out for everybody to see, and the tech companies were so well lawyered-up that they saw it and took advantage of the little cracks.

What little cracks?

Across the business, publishing companies need to work together with the labels. I’ve been very conscious since becoming Chairman here that we increase the pie for everyone, as opposed to taking from others’ slices.

Good for the labels that they get to negotiate [their streaming rates] in a free market. We don’t, so I just hope that the pie just continues to increase.

The oft-spun story by independent publishers is that someone like Sir Lucian Grainge, or his business affairs team, will go into negotiating with Spotify as one entity – UMG’s publishing and records together – and that publishing will always come off worse in that scenario, because there’s less money in it.

Lucian just wouldn’t do that.

He always says to me, ‘I’ve been in your shoes’ – he started off as a publisher, remember?

He would never, ever ask me to compromise our value or do anything that would be detrimental to our songwriters or our catalog. We wouldn’t be where we are in terms of our revenue and our profitability if at any time, he had asked me to compromise.

What’s he like as a boss?

Lucian has been an incredible boss to me. He believed that

I could be Chairman of this company before I believed I could be Chairman of this company. I guess that’s a silly thing to say because – and you can quote this – a guy would never say it. But it’s true. Lucian took a shot on me and gave me complete autonomy, but he also offered cover. On every deal that I’ve wanted to make, Lucian and Vivendi have supported me.

He is really open to my ideas; I’m on the board of the record company [at Universal Music Group]. I really enjoy him as a boss and I like him as a person.

His mind works so fast, and he doesn’t waste words.

One of your biggest rivals today is the man who just took over at Sony/ATV, Jon Platt – who you hired back at EMI Music Publishing. Do you ever kick yourself for taking that meeting?

No! I’m so happy for Jon. I was Head of West Coast for EMI Music Publishing and there was a guy named Steve Prudholme, who was a creative executive.

Steve went to a conference

“IT WAS PROFOUND FOR ME SEEING WHAT MADE ARTISTS TICK.” where he met Jon, who was the manager of a production group called Madukey – and we signed them. Jon used to drive up from Denver in this maroon car, and park himself in our conference room. Steve-o got a job at Epic Records, so there was a job opening, and Jon wanted the job. I’m like, ‘Jon, you have zero experience. So I’m going to interview everyone who’s appropriate for the job and after I’ve interviewed everyone, we can have an interview.’ He waited it out and then I had a meeting with him, and he said, ‘You’ve just

got to give me a shot. I don’t care what you pay me because you’re gonna want to pay me more in six months.’ He was relentless, and I gave him the job.

I am incredibly proud of his journey. We’re competitors, but I really like him, and I admire him. We both figured this business out in different ways.

I’m happy for him and I’m especially happy that he gets to go back to EMI [via] Sony/ATV and represent that catalog.

You made the decision to leave Sony/ATV in 2014, after so long with the same boss in Martin Bandier. When you look back now, what are your immediate memories of your exit?

Just how nervous I was to hurt Marty’s feelings. I had worked for him for over 20 years. It was a big breakup; that’s how I remember it. When you work for someone for that long, there’s a relationship there to deal with. But when I decided that I had to leave, it was empowering. I knew I had to go, and fortunately Lucian had an idea for me which meant there [couldn’t be] a better job for me [elsewhere]. It was a tremendous opportunity, but making the break was emotionally difficult.

I knew I could do [the UMPG job] and I could do it well. And I knew that I couldn’t stay and then complain about the same things that I would have been complaining about.

What does it tell us about you that you were nervous to go?

That I’m a human being; I’m a human being who cares as much about people as I do about the game and about the job.

I had an exchange with a manager recently of an artist we’ve had tremendous success with. It was an email, I guess we were talking about renegotiating something, and he said, ‘What I want to do is keep [this deal] open to find out what the value 47

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is on the open market. I’m sure you would do the same.’ And I thought, ‘Personally, I wouldn’t – because I value relationships and people and good work.’

What is the value you’re looking for there? Somebody else is going to pay you more money than me?

That’s not always what I call value.

I can’t separate the personal from [commercial relationships]. Yes, it’s a business and it’s great that [the industry is] making more money now – but that’s not the only thing that matters; human connections matter.

Has Marty forgiven you for leaving Sony/ATV? Yes. I’m very close with Marty.

As a matter of fact, I don’t think Marty’s done in this business and I would love to do something with him again. I have nothing but good feelings for him.

With Billie Eilish

Which personal experiences have had the most profound effect on your approach to business?

Growing up around talent taught me a lot. I am very clear that the reward [when working in publishing] is your own success; you can’t expect the reward, necessarily, to involve getting anything back personally from an artist. I have a full life. I have a family, I have friends. My role is to support artists – their role isn’t to support me. My role is to take care of them – their role is not to take care of me.

I hope that doesn’t read badly, because it’s really not a bitter thing. It’s accepting the fact that everything that I’ve ever done positively for an artist has furthered my own career. It’s furthered their career too, but I get a reward for it, we all do in this business, and it’s a lie to pretend otherwise.

It was profound for me to realize that [with each deal, executives] pay to have the privilege of a relationship with

talent. They don’t have to pay us.

It’s a very different dynamic.

Do you think the modern industry is making any mistakes in the development of artists?

I think it’s unfortunate that people don’t always have the time to develop into greatness.

Everything is just that much

“THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH MUSIC THAT CAN BE BRILLIANT.” faster. One big difference today is that the industry has bought into this idea that we have to keep on feeding and feeding distribution and the [streaming] platforms.

But there is only so much music that can be brilliant.

I’m glad that brilliant stuff does still gleam through, though; look at Billie Eilish. It’s happening fast, but look at that body of work – God, it’s brilliant.

Generally speaking – and everyone will have bugbears – but are you feeling positive about the future?

I’m feeling very positive. There’s been major growth, especially for the labels, and in order to maintain that growth we have to focus on getting emerging markets to where they can be.

Music companies like ours have become entertainment and media companies. There’s so much more than just streaming, and that forces us all to think outside the box, which is exciting.

And obviously, as businesses that utilize music grow, my hope is that songwriters pay increases alongside that success.

Have you got any personal ambitions left?

Yes, a lot. I don’t know what all of them are yet. I just want to stay open to the possibilities.

This interview first appeared on MBW in July 2019.

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50

Moe Shalizi: ‘How do we turn this into the next Disney?’

In 2019, Marshmello broke records with a Las Vegas residency deal reportedly worth $60m. He also single-handedly dragged the music business into a new multimedia era with his live set in video game Fortnite – in which he played to 10.7m individual players concurrently.

The masked DJ is, beyond doubt, one of the biggest stars in the world, especially amongst Gen Z – many of whom consider him something of a ringmaster for non-judgmental communal enjoyment. Marshmello’s manager, Moe Shalizi, meanwhile, is recognized as one of the smartest, most successful young executives in the global music business, having gone fully independent in 2018 following four years working with Red Light.

The story of Shalizi and Marshmello’s rise owes much to a very serendipitous ride in a golf cart, and the ears of Diplo.

In 2013, Shalizi was just-aboutgetting-by as a co-manager of artists, working in tandem with DJ Borgore. The latest addition to this roster was Jauz, a San Fran-based EDM producer, who’d created the track Feel The Volume and released it as a free download.

Shalizi, excited by the tune, passed it to his friend Chase Fiedler at live agency Insomniac, who just so happened to give it an airing, in a golf cart, at Burning Man festival. Diplo heard the track, approached Fielder, and expressed his interest in signing it on the spot. Jauz’s Feel The Volume was subsequently released on Diplo’s Mad Decent label in 2014, giving Shalizi his first success in artist management – and the impetus he needed to sign a game-changing JV deal

with Red Light.

Shalizi was born in Palm Springs and grew up in Irvine, Orange County. In his freshman year of high school, his mom and dad moved the family elsewhere in California, this time to Corona, near Riverside.

Today, sat on a sofa in his pristine Encino home, Shalizi talks with pride about the family values instilled in him by his “lower class” household during his formative years – and the motivational effect his father’s death had on him when he was just 17 years old.

28-year-old Shalizi has long showed a hunger for entrepreneurialism. In his teens, he would purchase second-hand

Since then, Marshmello has become not only a cultural phenomenon – with over 1.2bn views of his official channel on YouTube – but also a bastion for artistic independence. Most of the DJ’s music is entirely self-funded and released by The Shalizi Group, with the exception of oneoff pop singles featuring on-therise stars; Shalizi and Marshmello license these tracks to these acts’ respective record companies, guaranteeing heavyweight promotion around the world.

Marshmello’s mainstream hits with the likes of Anne-Marie (Friends, Warner Bros), Bastille (Happier, Capitol), Selena Gomez (Wolves, Interscope) and Khalid (Silence, RCA) have followed this

“IN HIGH SCHOOL, I WAS THE FAT, FUNNY KID. I MADE SURE THERE WAS NEVER AN AWKWARD MOMENT. THAT’S WHAT WE’VE DONE GLOBALLY WITH MARSHMELLO.” cars online, then pimp them with tinted windows and lowriders before selling them on at a profit.

He studied finance in college at UC Riverside – a parting promise to his dad. While there, he began running weekly EDM nights in Corona, where over 200 kids would regularly show up, having been directly marketed to on Facebook.

Shalizi subsequently met Borgore, before finding success with Jauz and joining Red Light.

As he signed on the dotted line with Coran Capshaw’s company, Marshmello had already been born – the fictional brainchild of Shalizi and the secretive man behind the mask.

model, never compromising the DJ’s core, fully independent, business. (Or, indeed, his ancillary businesses: Marshmello has now expanded into cookery shows on YouTube; his Cooking With Marshmello series regularly pulls in multiple millions of views.)

The major turning point in Marshmello’s career epitomizes his independence, as well as Shalizi’s eye for trailblazing marketing attuned to the Millennial mindset.

In 2016, as attendees of Coachella drove away from the ultimate festival de poseurs, they were confronted with a giant billboard carrying a picture of Marshmello’s face, under the 51

on Thursday nights, and I started meeting people through there.

In high school, I was always the class clown; I was the fat, funny kid. I always knew how to please everybody and how to assimilate with whoever I was with. I made sure there was never an awkward moment. And that’s essentially what we’ve done on a global basis with Marshmello – catering to all these different kinds of people.

We’re always thinking about that, like, how can we introduce the Marshmello brand to different audiences around the world?

Marshmello & Khalid

words: ‘I’m working hard now so my future daughter doesn’t have to sell Detox Tea on her social media.’

(Detox Tea, if you weren’t aware, is a popular ‘network marketing’ item on Instagram, whereby wannabe ‘influencers’ promote the product on behalf of brands, effectively peer-pressuring their friends/followers into buying it.

Some would suggest this trend carries hallmarks of a pyramid scheme, but those people may land us in legal trouble, so we shall dismiss them.)

Shalizi and Marshmello – who at this point was very much still just a dude with his head wrapped in a yoga mat – tapped into the zeitgeist with the poster, which set them back $5,000, a colossal expenditure for the DIY duo at the time. (To make the anecdote even more sumptuous, Shalizi was inspired to spend the cash after being quoted a ‘full-service’ PR campaign by an industry publicist for double the money.)

The Detox Tea trick rocketed Marshmello’s socials amongst the Insta-influencer crowd, giving 52

the DJ a solid platform on which to built his now globe-straddling presence.

Today, Fortnite conquered and Las Vegas residency secured, the future is looking extremely exciting for The Shalizi Group and Marshmello.

Here, MBW asks Shalizi all about his life, what gives him his drive, why he posts flashy shit on Instagram all the time, and the rise and rise of ‘mello culture...

Why did you end up in the music industry?

I honestly don’t know. No-one in my family comes from music, and I don’t have a musical bone in my body. I went to my first rave when I was 17, and I fell in love with dance music. Dubstep was the coolest thing to me. I bought some turntables and tried to teach myself how to DJ. But I always thought like a hustler; I was always the kid that was trying to figure out how to sell you something. So I was like, ‘Okay, why don’t I just make money off these turntables and these speakers?’ I convinced this lady to let me take over her bar

What advice would you give independent artists who are building out there?

Play it slow. A lot of people get excited and go sign a label deal, but all of my guys [signed to Shalizi Group] are independent.

That gives us the freedom to do what we want to do. What affects a lot of artists is that point when they start making a little bit of money. Everything changes, they go sign a deal and now they have a bunch of A&Rs telling them how their music should sound, following trends.

Some artists need a label, they need that infrastructure, and some artists don’t. And for the artists that don’t, if you’re starting to bubble, you did that yourself, you know? So keep doing it.

We know how cyclical this industry is; how one minute you’re on the top, and the next you can be on the bottom. We’re immediately thinking: how do we do something bigger than that?

How do we top it? You can’t get complacent in this business.

Now the madness around Marshmello’s Fortnite appearance has calmed down, what can you tell us about that experience?

We were really nervous when it happened just ‘cause we were just praying it would go successfully, especially with the

voice of [‘mello] talking into the game for everybody to hear.

But, in the end, it was amazing.

[Mello] was in this room, geared up head-to-toe with a bodymotion suit and everything, with maybe 30 or 40 people [surrounding him].

It was a crazy thing to be a part of. We’d worked on [it] for six months with [Epic Games]; those guys were and are completely ahead of the curve, big time. I think what they’re doing is going to be revolutionary for music.

The business model of Marshmello’s one-off singles is fascinating. It’s interesting that for some of these artists, working with Marshmello can be a huge boost to their careers.

Totally. At the end of the day, we’re just a producer so [the artist] gets all the shine.

Essentially, we help the artists more than we help ourselves.

We spent so much time in the beginning of Marshmello, the first few years, building our core audience. We didn’t put out any commercial records. The first [major label] record we put out was in August 2017 – Silence, with Khalid. At that point, we already had six million Instagram followers, plus a couple million on Facebook, and close to like 15 million on YouTube.

The mistake people often make is they go way too quick into the commercial space. And once you’re there, you can’t really jump back. We look at other artists, other DJs that are now tied to corny pop single after corny pop single to keep them relevant, which is like, just whack.

It’s easy to go and get a big feature [with a pop star], but we stay away from them. Everyone we’ve worked with – like AnneMarie, Bastille or Chvrches – aren’t [pop megastars]. We’ve taken the position, even with the hiphop stuff we do, to leverage our audience with the core audiences

of these artists who are crazy loyal. That helps keep the [‘mello] brand cool, you know? To some people, Marshmello is as far from cool as possible, but it’s not like we ever went and did an obvious record with the biggest pop stars.

That helps set us apart.

The biggest thing [about the singles model] is that we A&R those records; we play that record label role. But we don’t care about the market share – the label gets to take all that stuff, and that’s usually a priority for them. The main thing we need from [the labels] is radio. That’s the one thing that the labels still have a very good advantage on because of their promo teams.

“MARSHMELLO IS A COSTUME, A CHARACTER. SO WE HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING ABLE TO DO MORE THAN OTHER ARTISTS.” Tell us the story behind the Detox Tea ad at Coachella...

In the beginning of Marshmello, we always were like, we just need people to see Marshmello one time. You never forget the character after you see it once.

We knew a billboard could work. But how should we separate that billboard from everything else? It was about understanding who’s at Coachella, the hipsters and that whole Millennial crowd. At that time, Instagram models were at a real peak – everybody was an Instagram model, their bio said ‘wanderlust’, that whole thing.

We needed to do something that people at Coachella would understand and be like, ‘That’s

hilarious, ‘cause I went to a school with a girl that now sells detox tea.’

We just hoped it would work.

At that time we only had like $10,000 in the Marshmello bank account, and he agreed to commit to five grand for the billboard. We went to Coachella, took a photo of him in costume in front of the billboard, posted it, and then we also posted the photo of just the billboard.

Within a week, it went viral; The Fat Jew posted it and then every blog was posting this billboard.

They would try to cut out the photo of Marshmello, but we put his handle so close underneath the text that they couldn’t chop it out. We got tons and tons and tons of impressions [on socials].

We got lucky.

What if Marshmello came to you and said, ‘I just got a call from Irving Azoff, I’m leaving you and he’s going to manage me’? Surely you’d be like, Erm, I invented you!

Totally. I’m not worried about that honestly, ‘cause we have such a unique relationship. I could be like, we’re gonna jump off a bridge, and there are no questions asked: we’re both jumping. Same the other way around.

Some people will say it’s dumb of me not to think that anything could happen [ie. Marshmello leaving], but I really don’t because of what we’ve built together.

We have both put so much into it. He’s the most talented musician – people don’t realize.

He’s classically trained on the piano, and he plays guitar and drums and all these different instruments. Musically he can do anything.

I handle the business side, and he lets me do what I need to do, which isn’t always the case [with other artist/manager relationships]. He plays the shows, makes the music – and exists as 53

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an artist. The whole thing’s been our brainchild together. So I don’t think any [other manager] could really come in and be like, ‘This is what we’re gonna do.’

They’d have to manage the character as well as the musician...

Exactly. Our vision now is like, ‘How do we build the Marshmello enterprise? How do we turn this into the next Disney?’ The reach we have is insane. And that’s where we’re like, ‘Okay. Let’s take this thing to the next level.’

A few months in, there’s 12 of you here at The Shalizi Group.

You have in-house streaming playlist pluggers, in-house radio promo. If I didn’t know better I’d say you were building a record company...

Kind of – but without that record label mentality. To me, the idea of owning other people’s music is weird. It’s like, if you were a painter and I was like, ‘Hey, paint a masterpiece for me, then I’m gonna own everything and give you 18%.’ You’d be like, ‘Where does the rest of the money go?

Where does the 82% go?’

I mean, there is a lot of value that labels can add. But for artists, owning your masters is so important right now, ‘cause that’s your money in perpetuity. You can make money forever on those masters thanks to streaming.

Streaming’s just growing, so not owning your own shit is crazy; just for an advance, you’re giving away everything.

But then I’ve sat with artists [who signed major label deals] and they’re like, dude, I was at a place in my life where the $150,000 advance I signed allowed me to make the music I make now. I’m like, fair enough.

We were lucky never to be in that position. But yeah, I get it; for some people, they need that peace of mind of having some money in the bank and being

able to focus. But at what cost?

A five album deal? That’s a lot of fucking music.

Are there any other managers you look to for inspiration?

I mean, the OGs, like Scooter and [Tony] Sal, Future the Prince...

Ian Montone I met the other night who was super dope. I’ve watched what these guys do and admired from a distance. I haven’t had one specific mentor that’s been like, ‘This is what you need to do.’ I’ve always just figured it out on my own.

There are so many good young managers out there: Chris Zarou who does Logic; Jake Udell who did ZHU; Rebeca León who does J Balvin; Dre London who does Post, and Austin Rosen who does Post with him; Andrew Gertler with Shawn Mendes. I admire all of them.

We’re all kind of the next generation. There’s no prerequisite of being in the music industry for us, so you get all kinds of characters. The biggest thing is that we understand social media way more than the older generation of managers does, ‘cause we’re living in it.

That’s what makes these new

“ARE WE BUILDING A RECORD LABEL? KIND OF – BUT WITHOUT THAT RECORD LABEL MENTALITY. THE IDEA OF OWNING OTHER PEOPLE’S MUSIC IS WEIRD.” managers so deadly – we can see something like the Fortnite opportunity that nobody was thinking of. [To others in the industry] it was just a game their kids played.

That’s a supportive answer regarding your peers.

100 percent. There’s so much money to be made in this business; we can all get rich and not have to compete with each other. There’s no point in being like, ‘Oh, that person sucks.’ Ego just gets in the way.

What are the most profound ways that your upbringing has affected who you are and your hunger to succeed?

That’s a good question. Obviously losing my dad at 17 was just like, I didn’t know if life would ever go on. When you’re young, you always think that your parents are the guide to life. When you’re 12, it’s like, ‘How does my dad know all these places on the freeway?’

You think as a kid you’ll never be able to learn all those things.

Losing him was such a pivotal moment because it really made me realize that I had to fill that role, especially with my mom and my sister; I knew I had to go into survival mode and do whatever I could to take care of my family.

No-one in my neighborhood was rich by any means.

To this day, people are like, ‘What would be your biggest thing to achieve?’ It’s something I can’t have: to give back to my dad, to show him, like, ‘I made it!’

It sucks for him not to be able to see this. The first thing I did the second I started making money was allow my mom to retire, like, You don’t have to work anymore.

Taking care of her – that’s what keeps me going.

There’s not a lot of people in life that really and truly want to see you succeed. If something huge happened to you tomorrow – let’s say you [got promoted and] took over your whole company – your peers would not be totally happy for you. Because everybody would be a little like, ‘Why am I not doing that? Why am I not getting that break?’ But with your parents, it’s different. They don’t 55

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care about that. At the end of the day, they love you unconditionally and they just want to see you win.

How do you explain your bling Instagram posts?

Other managers are like, why are you so flashy? The thing is, I’m not doing it to be like, ‘Oh, this is what I have here, my chains, cars...’

It’s more so all the people that followed me from the beginning of my journey can see [proof of my success].

Five years ago, I moved here to L.A. making nothing, and then started making like $70,000 a year. I thought I’d made it. Then when I got to six figures? Oh my God, I was set – I was living!

But this is L.A, and the truth was I was still living paycheck to paycheck. If I lived in Corona – where I grew up and all my friends are still based – making 150 grand or something like that, it would have been like, Yo, I’m a millionaire. L.A. is completely different. You realize that even if you make a million dollars a year here, it doesn’t matter to anyone.

But L.A.’s the best motivation, man. You see how much people are born into money here. And then you’re like, damn. Like, here I am in the music industry fighting to make it, but that guy just sold his tech company after three years for thirty-X of what I make.

Okay, I need to work harder...

What advice would you give to a young manager?

Experiences are what makes a manager. In my first two years doing this, I made no money. I was spending everything that I made to [commission] press photos and things. When you have nothing, nobody does anything for free; the fucked up part of it is when you start making money and [your artist] becomes famous, everyone starts doing everything for free. It’s the complete opposite of how it should be.

On stage in San Fran, 2018

But the biggest thing for managers is that you have to really believe in what you’re doing. Management involves a lot of luck, and good management is really about what you do when that luck finally hits. So have a strategy to build, for the next six months at least.

Anything else?

Ultimately, just believe in yourself.

You’re gonna be your own worst enemy if you don’t. I really believe that the fear of losing stops us

“I STARTED MAKING $70K, THEN SIX FIGURES, AND THOUGHT I’D MADE IT. BUT THIS IS L.A – I WAS STILL LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.” from achieving so much. People are so scared of failing, but in reality that shit only ever makes you stronger. It’s an opportunity for you to realize where you made mistakes, go back and redo it.

If I could give you a magic wand and you could change one thing about the global music industry, what would it be?

No more lying. You all have to be honest from now on! There’s a lot of funny monkey business in this industry, and a lot of fakeness. I’m not blameless – the same guys that weren’t answering my phone calls three years ago, now I’m not answering their phone calls [laughs].

What type of character were you in school, and how, if anything, has that evolved into adulthood?

I’m still the same person. One second, I’m tying things up, the next I’m joking and talking shit.

Success and money – in the end, you lose when you allow that shit to change you. This could all be gone tomorrow, you know? If you burn everybody on the way up, the way down is gonna be fucking terrible for you.

I meet people, especially in L.A, that are like, ‘Do you know who I am?’. And I’m like, no – I really, really don’t care. You could be the President of whatever. It honestly doesn’t matter. We all bleed the same blood.

This interview first appeared on MBW in March 2019.

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Peter Edge: ‘I marry business to my passion for music – not the other way round.’

Peter Edge’s journey into the music business is cooler than yours.

The RCA Records CEO and Chairman was studying at Coventry Polytechnic in the early ‘80s – DJ’ing on local radio and in nightclubs in his spare time – when he struck up a friendship with Jerry Dammers from The Specials (and, later, The Special AKA).

As a result, A&R maven Edge’s earliest exposure to the musicmaking side of the business was a front-row seat for one of the most creatively daring periods of one of the great British groups.

(Ghost Town, released in 1981, remains one of the UK’s most bizarre, harrowing and brilliant No.1 records ever.)

From there, Edge moved down to London, nabbing a job as a music producer on a show called Switch on Channel 4, while continuing to DJ. It was through Switch that Edge met Simon Fuller – who was then working at Chrysalis Music Publishing.

Edge told the Idol-founding magnate about a new track he’d discovered, Holiday by Madonna, and the duo managed to lock down the publishing.

Smart move.

How did Edge then become one of the most powerful British executives in the modern-day global business, and the head of RCA? By paying his dues.

Fuller recommended Edge (understandably) to Chrysalis President Doug D’arcy, who hired the A&R specialist to start a new label, Cooltempo. The imprint went on to play an influential role in ‘80s UK electronic music – signing the likes of Adeva (Respect) and Paul Hardcastle (19) – as well as 58

inking deals with pioneering hip-hop acts from overseas like Eric B. & Rakim, Monie Love and Doug E. Fresh.

Edge’s talent was then spotted

by Benny Medina and Lenny Waronker, and he was hired by Warner Bros. Records, moving to Los Angeles in 1991. More success followed, including working with The Jungle Brothers, before he was poached by Clive Davis at Arista in the mid-’90s. This started a career for Edge at Sony/BMG that has now lasted 23 years.

At Arista, and then J Records, Edge’s biggest signings included Dido, Faithless, Angie Stone, Jamie Foxx and Alicia Keys, whose talent he first spotted and admired when she was just 14 years old. It was during this period of his career where Edge enjoyed many of his early multiPlatinum successes, including Dido’s White Flag and Life For Rent albums, as well as Alicia Keys’ groundbreaking debut LP, Songs in A Minor. In 2007, he became a fully-fledged RCA’er, as he was named President of A&R. These days, the roster at RCA is very different – but Edge’s A&R principles remain. In 2019 alone, the New York-based company released No.1 albums from Khalid and P!nk, while banking five Grammy nominations for priority new artist H.E.R. The Sony label also counts both Miley Cyrus and Mark Ronson on its roster – who jointly had a major global hit at the end of 2018 with Nothing Breaks Like A Heart.

MBW caught up with Edge to ask him all about RCA’s philosophy, his thoughts on modern British music and his path from Coventry boy to worldwide music business influencer...

Where is RCA is right now and what defines it as a company?

I’m pleased to say we’re becoming known for being a destination label for artists, with great artist development stories in the last three years. People are impressed, for example, with how we took Khalid from a high school senior at 17 years old to being the No.1 artist on Spotify globally [a title the artist secured in April]; that’s a feat achieved in a relatively short period of time.

We’ve also managed to have such a lot of success with SZA and the TDE team. She’s become a big critical favorite with a multiPlatinum album and is definitely now on the world stage. We also got those great [Grammy] nominations for H.E.R., who’s emerging as one of the next era of important artists. And then you look at Childish Gambino, who chose to come work with us [signing with RCA in 2018 after an extended period with Glassnote Records]; we did This is America and it became Record and Song Of The Year at the Grammys. RCA is known for quality and artistry and a certain level of taste.

Looking at Childish Gambino, when you sign a deal with an existing big artist like that – rather than a development act – what’s the ‘sell’ for RCA? Other than the advance check!

The big thing is that we’re a creative-first label. That really speaks to who I am and who we are as a company. We like to do different and innovative kind of things – sometimes obtuse things.

We like to do the unusual.

You spent your formative years in Coventry, as a friend of Jerry Dammers. What did that period

“WE’RE A CREATIVEFIRST LABEL. WE DO DIFFERENT THINGS – SOMETIMES, OBTUSE THINGS.”

have to focus.

Pink

teach you that you still find useful today?

It’s actually connected to what we’re talking about in regards to RCA today. I was in art school and college in Coventry. Jerry was a little older than me but we definitely spent a lot of time as friends, hanging out at the time. He truly believed in artistry.

I was always amazed by the lengths he would go to to make sure something really ‘spoke’ to the listener. Artistically, he was on a really high level. When he really took it to that [next level] he could do something transformative; something really incredible. Ghost Town is perhaps the best example of that – one of the all-time great records, in my humble opinion.

It was the same thing with Free Nelson Mandela [by The Special AKA]. We had both moved to London at that point, and my flat was right next to the studio where he was making that track in North London. I heard many 60

iterations of that song; he just kept perfecting it and perfecting it and perfecting it. And in the end, again, he delivered a piece of genius.

How do you marry that love of thinking big, those creative aspirations, to the realities of ‘feeding the machine’ at a large major record company?

Well, we try and find something that’s got a touch of magic to begin with, [but which] we really believe can translate to a wider audience. I often joke that we’re a bit like HBO these days; we’re making quality programming to fit a subscription model. It’s very different to the model we all grew up on over the years; the transactional model.

Once you understand that, you can start thinking about things in a different way. I have to try and keep a high bar and at the same time run a lot of projects here.

That said, we don’t just try to do everything that comes along. We

What was the biggest career lesson you learned at Cooltempo when you glance back at that period?

It’s funny, looking back I realise that I’ve always been doing a version of the same thing – just morphing it into different eras and iterations. At Cooltempo I signed hip-hop records when hiphop was pretty much brand new – Doug E. Fresh and Slick Rick and Eric B. & Rakim.

They didn’t really have any [global] major record deals in America so I signed them for Europe. We managed to have success in the UK with records that were really underground records in America. I loved the hip-hop scene, and still do. And, similarly, with house and dance – we had a lot of big records in those [genres], when I worked with Danny D. The whole thing was about finding music that was new and exciting and that I was passionate about, and where I felt like I could help nurture or support an artist who wasn’t necessary being appreciated fully.

You started out in your career DJ’ing, both on the radio and at club nights. Do you think that having a musical sensibility is an important factor in your success as a leading A&R executive over the years?

I would like to think so. Certainly having an understanding of what it is you are listening to, what the musical inspirations might be, what the influences and connections are – that’s very important. My prime interest in life is music. It’s completely been my life, and always has; it’s in me.

I come from that place. So I marry business to my passion for music – not the other way round.

Where did your passion for music come from?

My sister had a hell of a record

collection. She was a big fan of Motown, Atlantic Records and soul music. She’s nine years older than me so, when I was a little kid, she would be playing these really cool records. That was the soundtrack to my childhood; I often think if that hadn’t been the case, I would have had to find music in a different way.

We’re used to seeing high-flying British executives in the US music industry now – of which you’re very much a part. But when you joined Warner Bros. it was much rarer. Which qualities do you think the British industry instilled in you that helped?

I always feel that the level of interest in music from people in the UK is really intense. It’s part of the national conversation, part of the language of the country, and that really prepared me to work in some of the areas that I have in America.

Even growing up, people knew who was No.1 on the charts.

Perhaps being a smaller [market] than the US is a factor in that.

Music has a similar kind of role within communities in the States – in the African American community, especially – but, nationwide, the passion is not quite as focused as it is in the UK. You had an important run of your career under Clive Davis, first at Arista and then J Records.

What are the most important things that he taught you?

Clive taught me an enormous amount. People often joke that working for Clive is like going to Harvard for the music business, and that’s kind of true. Working with Clive was a steep learning curve. He has a very specific approach, a very successful approach, to how he conducts business and initiates things. That was really inspiring. We worked on things in the late ‘90s – on Whitney Houston, Santana and all of that. At the same time, I

was also able to bring my level of taste to Arista and then to J Records, [with acts like] Faceless, Dido, Alicia Keys and Angie Stone.

Those artists were my ‘thing’, stylistically, and we had great success with them. I learned a lot from Clive but that was also a time of a lot of [professional] growth for me, when I had to get my own thing together.

Khalid is becoming one of the world’s biggest artists, out of a US industry that’s been so hiphop dominated in recent years.

Is there a feeling that R&B is making a comeback?

“THERE’S A NEW KIND OF R&B OR SOULINFLUENCED MUSIC TAKING OFF, AND WE’RE AT THE FOREFRONT.” There absolutely is something happening, although I don’t know if I’d call it ‘R&B’ exactly, because I feel like the hybridization of where music is today makes it different. Many people say [this new trend] started when we signed Bryson Tiller and had huge success with his Trapsoul album, which was multi-Platinum and was a shape-shifting record.

Before that album, it was wall to wall hip-hop – there was hardly any R&B on US radio, for instance.

Bryson changed the landscape, helping create a situation where we were able to subsequently break other artists.

I’m a big R&B proponent; I’ve always loved R&B music. I don’t know whether Khalid should be [classified] as R&B, just because his musical aspirations move in so many different directions. After his [initial] success with Location, the duet he did with Billie Eilish

[Lovely] was a turning point in her career; he also [collaborated on] the first major hit for Marshmello with Silence, neither of which were really R&B. But there is an R&B influence that’s strong in his music, and it’s the same with other artists like H.E.R. I definitely feel there’s a new kind of R&Binfluenced, or soul-influenced, music really taking off now.

It’s reviving a type of music that needed some reinvention, and I’m excited [RCA] is at the forefront of it.

Do you sometimes feel that songs are being broken more often than artists?

That’s part of a dynamic we’re all working with on the streaming services. I’ve been a fan of Spotify and the other DSPs from the beginning, because I’m such a music head – to have all of that amazing music so accessible is a revelation. But it is a shame that sometimes when you play a song, you can be immediately diverted to another artist. Just the other day, I played a song from [Coldplay’s] A Rush Of Blood To The Head and thought, ‘This is such a great album.’ I was ready for the next track on the album but it totally shifted the playlist to a completely different artist.

The discovery factor is really important, but I’m not sure we’ve cracked how we encourage listeners to dig deeper on artists.

Do you have any thoughts on the huge rise in the influence of social media?

As a fan of music, I’m interested in musicians, so I don’t particularly enjoy that [social media] aspect of where things have gone. But you can’t ignore it – we spend a lot of time here talking about context and narrative around an artist. That’s really a big part of today’s world. Everything now needs some sort of story, to help people understand how it relates to them: ‘Why am I listening to 61

something great going on with this artist?’ I love having a guy like that in the boss’s seat.

We’re moving into a whole different era at Sony now and there are lots of new initiatives going on. There’s expansion in terms of A&R, but also expansion in terms of different relationships that are being built with artists.

How have things changed at RCA for you since the departure of your former President and COO, Tom Corson?

We feel really great about where we are and what we’ve accomplished. One of the things that I’m very grateful for is the fact that there are a lot of talented people who have worked together for a long time here. It’s a very strong team with people like John Fleckenstein, Joe Riccitelli, Carolyn Williams, Keith Naftaly, Mark Pitts and Mika ElBaz, to name a few. That’s made things really cohesive.

Mark Ronson and Miley Cyrus

this? Who is this and what is their connection to whatever it is I know?’ Context is everything and social media is a big component to that. Hip-hop has [accelerated] that factor – hip-hop is so contextorientated. It’s very much about the story that’s being told lyrically, who the artists are and how they relate to each other: ‘Where are you from? What is your background? Why are you telling this story? Are you legit about the story you’re telling?’

be. Rather than just presenting a [record company] agenda of ‘I need this and I need that’, it’s important to try and understand what artists are going through [and] what they want to get expressed.

How does someone who works closely with artists, particularly in A&R, reach a point where they can offer their opinion or challenge ideas and be heard by the talent?

I don’t know, exactly. But I do think this job requires a certain sense of empathy, which allows you to understand what artists see from their side of the situation; to understand what it is that they’re trying to do, and what their artistic process might

“WE’RE MOVING INTO A WHOLE DIFFERENT ERA AT SONY MUSIC NOW.”

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How’s Rob Stringer doing as a CEO of Sony Music?

One of the things I like most about Rob is that he really appreciates artistry and the

importance of maintaining a level of taste, and that definitely aligns with how I feel about things. I love the fact that I can sit with him and talk about music: ‘What’s the level of artistry here? Is there

What is getting you excited about the potential future of the record business?

I’m really a big fan of visual art and I like the fact that things are starting to hybridize – that contemporary art and music are collaborating now. Art and music interest me but many other things do too; architecture, film etc. When there’s collaboration, when disciplines interact, that to me is very exciting.

The recorded music business is just one aspect of what artists are up to today. It used to be one of the main events, along with performing live. Now there are many things that artists can create, to the point I was just making. And we want to be involved in that – we’re trying to broaden what the relationship is between RCA and its artists within our partnerships.

This interview first appeared on MBW in July 2019.

Josh Abraham and Scott Cutler: ‘Songwriters have a challenging life. It’s a grind that we really understand.’

“I’m sure I have missed a whole bunch of opportunities and I am going to miss others, but I caught a lot of them too. In the end it’s about how many I catch, not how many I lose.”

Pulse Music Group co-founder Scott Cutler loves this quote from Apocalypse Now filmmaker Francis Ford Coppola. It’s clear that such a glass-half-full mindset is something Pulse lives by. “[Coppola] didn’t spend a lot of time thinking about the [shots] that he didn’t get,” says Cutler. “He

got enough great shots to make a movie. And as long as we’re doing well, and it’s working, it’s good.”

Pulse is definitely doing well.

The independent Los Angelesbased publisher, management and services company has shown a consistent knack for signing some of the hottest songwriters amid a ten-year track record of backing talent.

Big recent hits from Pulse writers include Travis Scott’s Sicko Mode feat. Drake via OZ, Maroon 5’s Girls Like You feat. Cardi B via

superstar songwriter Starrah and Camila Cabello’s Havana feat.

Young Thug also via Starrah. Pulse songwriter Marty James also cowrote the remix of Luis Fonsi and Daddy Yankee’s Latin mega hit Despacito, featuring Justin Bieber.

In fact, the company’s roster is responsible for selling over 150 million units of recorded music.

Its original declaration of being a metaphorical “sanctuary” for artists, devised by its founders – songwriters Scott Cutler, Anne Preven and songwriter/producer 63

Josh Abraham – appears to ring as true today as it did on day one.

A physical manifestation of the Pulse ‘sanctuary’ is housed behind a large gray, ivycovered building in Silverlake, Los Angeles, one of two Pulse studio complexes in the city. The other one is a few miles away in Burbank. Designed in 1967 by architect Carl Maston, Pulse HQ feels a lot less like what one might expect a ‘traditional’ publishing company to look like.

Originally known as Soundcastle Recording Studios, the property’s two studios have served as the location of recordings by superstars like Madonna, Paul McCartney, the Beach Boys, Bruce Springsteen, Tupac, Billy Joel, the Beastie Boys, Dr. Dre and countless others.

The location and legacy of Pulse’s HQ sends a clear message to anyone who ventures through its gates: This company is serious about music.

“I was a published songwriter from the age of 22,” says Cutler, explaining the significance of their current setup.

“You would go into a publisher’s building and it was like a bank building; you’d get off [the elevator] on the fourth floor; you’d sit in the waiting room and you’d walk past a bunch of file cabinets to an office. There was nothing about it that felt [like a music company].”

Adds Abraham (pictured left): “When Pulse first started, we built it as if we were building a label. We only talked about Island Records, A&M Records and Virgin [as reference points].

“But particularly A&M, [whose HQ] was at the Jim Henson Company lot. There was a label inside the studios and we kind of modelled [Pulse’s building] after that.”

Between them, Abraham and Cutler have themselves co-written and co-produced songs that have generated tens of millions of sales 64

worldwide. Amongst many other hits, Cutler, whilst a member of the band Ednaswap, co-wrote the song Torn, covered and made world famous in 1997 by Natalie Imbruglia, while Abraham has worked with everyone from P!nk to Weezer, Carly Rae Jepsen and Adam Lambert to Slayer.

They’ve been able to draw from their combined experiences in the studio and at the negotiation table to offer a “by-musicians-formusicians” development service, which works.

“We realized at one point, that we had a lot of answers from all of our experiences,” says Cutler. “I was a songwriter, I had sessions every day. I know what it’s like when it’s going well; I know

“I WAS A PUBLISHED SONGWRITER. YOU WOULD GO INTO A PUBLISHERS AND IT WAS LIKE A BANK BUILDING. IT DIDN’T FEEL LIKE A MUSIC COMPANY.” what it feels like when it’s not going well.

“I understand some of the concerns that songwriters [have].

It’s a challenging life, even when you’re doing your best. You’re constantly writing another song, you can’t really rest on the last song. You have got to keep going.

It’s a certain kind of grind that we really understand.”

Cutler’s first-hand understanding of the needs of songwriters and publishers was recently acknowledged when he was elected to join the board of the National Music Publishers Association.

“It was humbling,” he says, of the experience. “I felt like an

Pulse part-owns Katy Perry’s Last Friday Night

imposter on day one. Like, ‘What am I doing here with all these guys that have been doing this for so long?’

“But I got over that and I’m going to do everything I can to bring whatever voice I can bring to it. Them picking Pulse to be included was really an honor.”

Pulse started in 2009 after Abraham and Cutler kept ”bumping into each other creatively” and eventually the duo became friends.

“We both had a similar interest in arts, and we both wanted to

buy the same house once,” says Cutler. “It was just a very funny kind of thing where we realized we had a lot in common.”

Cutler was building his own studio complex in Burbank and Abraham was building his own studio in Silverlake at the same time. So, Abraham called Cutler and made him an offer.

“I have this idea,” said Abraham.

“I want to start a publishing and management company for writers and artists, and it would be great if we did it together.”

With his arm twisted, Cutler got

to work with Abraham to start building out a roster. The former, a successful songwriter, was well connected in the songwriter community and the latter, as an in-demand producer, got to see first hand who some of the best working musicians and songwriters were at the time.

Their theory was that, to get started, they would just call up some of the most talented people they had previously worked with.

“It would be the one guy in the band that wrote all the songs, and was clearly the gifted person,”

says Cutler. Abraham adds that “the gold mine, or the secret weapon, was the quiet [person] in the corner”.

“That’s the guy I would really want,” he adds. “I was in the room, so I got to see who the talent really was.”

After those initial discussions, they identified a few people to approach with offers, and signed four people to start off with. “In those four people, three of the four of them had pretty significant success pretty quickly once we started,” says Cutler.

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YBN Cordae

One of those songwriters is Bonnie McKee, who co-wrote Katy Perry’s US No.1 singles like California Gurls, Last Friday Night (T.G.I.F.), Part of Me, Teenage Dream and Roar - not to mention Top 10 hits like Britney Spears’ Hold It Against Me and Taio Cruz’s Dynamite.

Another early Pulse signing was Sugarcult’s chief singer and songwriter, Tim Pagnotta, whose songs have sold more than 12m copies globally.

“So that was it; it was, go to the most talented people, create a family environment with them, and let’s see if we can move the needle,” says Cutler.

Having spent “10,000 hours in the studio” themselves, not only are Abraham and Cutler in a position to empathize with the creatives that walk through their doors, but they clearly also know a hit when they hear one.

“It’s really a gut feeling of what stands out as the best songs as you’re shaping a record,” explains Abraham.

“You lean in on those songs that make you feel a certain way, and you watch the completion of a 66

song, when you’re producing, that you think might be the hit single.

When it goes all the way, you start to trust your gut more. Having that experience, I trust my gut when I hear something.”

Pulse’s co-CEOs wish to make it clear that they don’t chase hits,

“SO THAT WAS IT; IT WAS, GO TO THE MOST TALENTED PEOPLE, CREATE A FAMILY ENVIRONMENT, AND LET’S SEE IF WE CAN MOVE THE NEEDLE.” but instead suggest that they invest in individuals who they feel have the potential to make hits and, ultimately, be a part of the scene and culture they’ve tried to build around Pulse.

“We really haven’t gone after, with any real passion, somebody

who just has a song that’s a hit,” says Cutler.

“When you want to be a part of just that song, that’s usually a bad sign for us. Once we’re sold completely [on the person], we just don’t let up.

“We can connect then. If we think, ‘Oh I like that song, but I don’t know what this person’s arc is going to look like’, then those deals don’t usually work.”

The publishing company grew from that initial roster of songwriters to the independent behemoth it is today, which, along with Pulse Management, operates under the Pulse Recording umbrella. In 2014 to drive forward its expansion in publishing, Pulse took on a “multi-million dollar capital fund” from Fujipacific Music (West). [In January 2020, Concord acquired FP’s stake.]

Today, Pulse has 175 active clients, runs six joint ventures and controls over 10,000 copyrights. In fact, the firm’s founders say that the company has added over 125 new copyrights to its books every month of 2019.

Its workforce of 25 full-time employees, Cutler says, consists of “bar none, the greatest creative team” in the business.

Pulse’s leadership team consists of President and Head of creative, Maria Egan, who heads up the publishing company, and Joe Rangel, the Founder and CEO of Pulse’s licensing division.

Egan was previously VP of A&R at Columbia for eight years and Rangel was a film & TV exec at EMI Music Publishing, Capitol Records, and Miramax Films.

“Markell Casey [Senior Director, Creative] signed James Blake and Yebba. After he signed Yebba, if he wants to sign something, we just get it done,” says Cutler.

“Ashley [Calhoun] signed Starrah in her first week here. Like, whatever she wants to do, I’m going to support her. And Maria [Egan] sits on top of all of them

and helps guide them through their careers and gives them advice and sometimes challenges them on signings.”

“I can still tell when I’m in the presence of a great talent,” adds Cutler of Pulse’s personnel. “I don’t have to be a specialist at what they do to know that this a supertalented person, but we trust them and that’s an important part of what works here. The team is very well-supported. If they want to sign something, we sign it, just no hesitation.”

Recent signings include Ty Dolla Sign, Tyler Johnson, El_P, Rich the Kid, YBN Cordae and Bhad Bhabie, the Neptunes’ Chad Hugo and the Strokes Albert Hammond Junior. Complementing the company’s core team are joint ventures formed with Nashville based Creative Nation, the music management and publishing company owned by songwriter Luke Laird and Beth Laird; Marc Anthony’s Magnus Media; Nas’s Mass Appeal, Rick Rubin’s American Recordings and BEAT HOUSE, in partnership with Tiffany Kumar, a former Global Head of Songwriter Relations at Spotify.

“The first one [Pulse signed] was Beth and Luke Laird, Creative Nation, and that one was just obvious to me,” says Cutler.

“Nashville’s its own world. There was no way I was going to go to Nashville and put up a Pulse sign.

I wanted a good partner. So, that was incredibly obvious.

“With Rick, we all sat together and Josh told him the same thing he told me, which is, ‘You are around all these talented people.

You’re kind of a publisher, you know? You don’t know you are, but publishing is A&R, basically.’

Rick agreed, and we’re about five or six years into that relationship.

Anything he wants, if he puts his hand up, we just close the deal.

“Marc Anthony came from [being connected with] Maria Egan and her curiosity about Latin music a few years ago and

Ty Dolla Sign

her feeling that it was going to be an important place for us to go. And it’s interesting, because we had a big foothold in hip-hop and a big foothold in Latin kind of ahead of schedule, so that was

“THE GOLD MINE, THE SECRET WEAPON, WAS THE QUIET PERSON IN THE CORNER. THAT’S THE [WRITER WE WANTED TO SIGN WHEN PULSE FIRST STARTED].” fortunate for us that we had gone in those directions when we did.

That comes from having good partners.”

Pulse currently enjoys an independent music publisher market share (based on top 100 radio songs) of 4.5%, making the company the third largest indie publisher in the United States.

Asked if they’re able to compete

with the majors, Abraham gives an unequivocal ‘yes’.

“For sure, and sometimes we’re the better choice. Sometimes we’re not. But we don’t have to win everything. We just have to do well enough,” he says.

“I don’t know if this is because of the culture that we’ve built, but when we react to something and want to be in business with it, it usually comes to us,” adds Cutler.

“Just by virtue of, not financial [reasons], but because of the goodwill the company has built.”

With our interview nearing its end, and having discussed Pulse’s impressive success over the past decade, the final question naturally is, ‘What next?’

“We’re in the sweet spot right now, where we’ve done a lot of hard work to get here, so growing is our plan,” says Abraham.

“We still wake up and talk on the phone at seven in the morning every day,” adds Cutler.

“It will definitely grow. We come here every day – and every day is a new adventure.”

This interview first appeared on MBW in October 2019.

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68

Willard Ahdritz: The revolution is now Willard Ahdritz is repeating himself. Not, we’re thankful to report, within the confines of this interview – as you’ll read, the Kobalt founder has plenty of interesting/controversial things to say without ever resorting to reiteration.

But for two decades now, Swedish-born, New York-based Ahdritz has been banging the table for the same vision – and the same values – of a techembracing music business that is happy to share the majority of its wealth with artists and songwriters.

So when Ahdritz starts telling MBW about the industry’s deep need for a “centralized global technology platform across multiple rights”, we have to stop and ask him: Willard, haven’t we heard you use that exact phrase before? His answer is, proudly, affirmative: in fact, these words echo the pitch he presented to Kobalt’s initial investor, SPARK, 20 years ago.

Back then, as he does today, Ahdritz passionately believed that, in order for the music industry to reach its global potential, it needed to jettison the endemic monetary wastage in its worldwide setup – something, he hypothesized, which could be delivered by a tech-based service company that also enabled creators to retain their copyrights. And Ahdritz has long argued that such a company, (i.e.

Kobalt), could be successfully built on far thinner margins than the music biz’s long-established “fat cats” (i.e. the major music rightsholders).

Ahdritz’s unwavering confidence in Kobalt’s model has been largely driven by two factors, for which he has remained a vocal evangelist: (i) the explosion in access to smartphone ownership and telco coverage worldwide;

(ii) the ‘switching on’ of billions of music consumers thanks to adsupported streaming ‘funnels’.

At the close of 2018, Ahdritz tells us with a grin, there were an estimated 1.5 billion users of ad-supported music services globally, alongside 250m users of paid streaming accounts – out of around 4 billion global smartphone users in total.

By 2025, says Ahdritz, Kobalt expects there will be over 3bn monetized digital music consumers, with over 750m paying subscription customers and 2.5bn users of ad-supported tiers.

“WHEN WE STARTED, A FEW PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS TOLD ME I WAS AN IDIOT, OR SAID THAT WE WERE DESTROYING THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY.” “When we started, there were a few people in the business who told me I was an idiot, or that we were going to destroy the publishing industry,” he says, in a nod towards Kobalt’s smallermargins-in-a-larger-market game plan. “Some of those same people now tell me they see what we saw: billions of monetized fans, consuming music digitally, completely transforming what the music industry is, and what artists need from it.”

Back before Ahdritz pitched to SPARK, Kobalt wasn’t even Kobalt; it had a prototype name of NCM – Net Copyright Management. From there, it acquired a publishing catalog from Diesel Music, home of Eagle

Eye Cherry, in order to prove its concept, in summer 2000. The company then publicly launched under that now-famous red ‘K’ logo, in January 2001.

Kobalt, the “centralized global technology platform” Ahdritz envisioned nearly 20 years ago, continues to become an increasingly powerful player in the music industry. That’s not just in the world of publishing – where its disruptive, tech-driven presence was first felt – but also in recorded music (via AWAL), plus neighboring rights (via KNR) and royalty collection (via AMRA).

Kobalt’s success in publishing needs little explanation: for the past four quarters, the firm was either the second or third biggest hit publisher in the US. Kobalt Music Publishing manages over 700,000 songs for clients like Sir Paul McCartney, Skrillex and Childish Gambino, with revenues on course for around $400m in the fiscal year ended June 2019.

Also notable is the fact that Kobalt’s publishing admin service has become the partner of choice for the music industry’s ‘new money’: the likes of Round Hill Music, Spirit Music Group and Merck Mercuriadis’s Hipgnosis have each raised hundreds of millions of dollars of thirdparty capital, and have been responsible for some huge acquisitions in recent years.

All of them now trust their catalogs to Kobalt.

Perhaps the most-talked about element of Kobalt right now, however, is AWAL – its recorded music operation, which is expected to turn over close to $100m in the firm’s current FY. Working with acts including Little Simz, Tom Misch, Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds, Steve Lacy and Omar Apollo, AWAL offers labelesque distribution, marketing and promotional services, but 69

more of their royalties.

Here, Ahdritz explains more – while mapping out the recent history, and future potential, of Kobalt’s business...

Kobalt Music Publishing client Sir Paul McCartney

demands no ownership of an act’s copyrights in return. 2019 saw a major milestone, when singer/songwriter/producer Lauv’s AWAL-managed catalog topped 2 billion streams across just Apple and Spotify in Q1 – the kind of eye-popping number which usually gets major label bosses salivating.

For Ahdritz, this achievement offers simple proof that, when needed, AWAL can fight toe-totoe with the US market’s biggest labels, and even challenge the dominance of major record companies at radio. (AWAL acquired respected NYCbased promo company In2une in 2018, which has worked with the likes of Major Lazer and Lindsey Stirling.) AWAL’s certainly impressed Glassnote Records, which signed a global services deal with Kobalt in early 2019, leaving behind its prior agreement with Universal.

The biggest growth area for AWAL in the years ahead involves a community which Ahdritz says has been sorely under-served by the major labels: the ‘middle tier’ of artists looking to earn a decent 70

revenue stream from their music recordings. According to Kobalt’s estimates, there were over 20,000 Anglo/American artists worldwide in 2018 who generated tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in label value from their recorded music catalogs. Kobalt projects this number will more than treble in five to 10 years.

“KOBALT IS AN ENABLER FOR BOTH CREATORS AND DSPS. THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS GROWING, AND KOBALT IS OUTPERFORMING THE MUSIC BUSINESS.” This ‘middle tier’, says Ahdritz, will become AWAL’s key “sweet spot”, as the company “drives an economic revolution” for these artists, via a service-driven business model that lets acts keep their recording rights and

You’ve often said in the past that streaming would eventually bring digital music to billions of people worldwide, on monetized platforms. It appears we’re there now.

For years, many people told me I was here to kill the publishing industry. I hear that less and less today. All of the things I believed and said when we started Kobalt are now happening.

Kobalt is an enabler for both creators and the DSPs. We are creating a win-winwin for everybody. The music industry is growing, and Kobalt is outperforming the music business.

Your overall revenues were up 25.3% in your financial year, to end of June 2018, reaching $402m. Gross collections reached $494m. Yet people still like to point at your losses; you had an EBITDA loss of $15m.

You have to understand that Kobalt is many businesses. Our publishing business, which is our largest and the one we have been involved the longest, is profitable today, and it will get more profitable as it continues to grow and scale. We are also the world’s largest neighboring rights agent following our acquisition of Fintage House, and that business also generates positive contribution. All of our businesses have attractive economics and will be profitable once they reach scale.

To do that requires major investment in building the leading centralized global technology platform to best service a fast-growing digital music industry. That’s what I think most outsiders miss when they just look at the numbers.

We’re focused on innovating and building for the future. For example, in our tech and product development, we’re building out our infrastructure to support the growth of AWAL. This investment costs money, and that is what is reflected in those financial results. And those [FY 2018] numbers are almost a year old.

We are forecasting over $600m [in annual revenues] in our end of June ‘19 FY. We are already a much bigger company today, and continuing to grow at multiples of the industry. You can’t drive looking in the rear view mirror!

The fact is, streaming is [fueling] an amazing shift in revenue distribution, creating a large new market segment of artists not being served by the major labels.

With the platform and services we’ve built out already, we are set up beautifully to help them.

And we’re eager to support more artists. That’s why we are now raising another investment round and that money will help us in growing AWAL and our other businesses.

Our [competitors] used to say Kobalt’s business didn’t make sense. Then that didn’t work, so they started saying we weren’t creative. Then that didn’t work, so they said we’d be bankrupt one day. And now they see us sailing away!

All of those comments are driven by fear; fear of the new way forward. I just care about the facts, and the facts are: we are building the new music business, and we are going to deliver a bigger artist ecosystem for everyone.

Why are you so confident that AWAL deserves the investment?

What is marking that company out in the marketplace?

The major labels are still run on the system of the ‘Hunger Games’: 19 in every 20 artists that signs does not succeed in their

AWAL client Little Simz

system. More and more, artists are saying no to big advance checks from the majors and seeing real success – that’s a shift. Look at the Lauv story. AWAL is also proving that releasing music globally from day one is much better than a territory-by-territory approach.

Maybe the worst thing about the ‘Hunger Games’ is that artists lose control of their career. We are here to maximise our [clients’] cashflow, not to take all of their rights and most of their money. In my opinion, it is more likely than not that a major label deal will be the kiss of death for most artists.

Not every major label deal is the same, though. Do you take any pride or pleasure in deals like that recently signed by Taylor Swift at Universal, which ultimately gives her long-term control of her own copyrights?

It is absolutely clear that we have become an influence in those stories: ‘Is [that superstar] going to sign with [Kobalt] or not?’

But the biggest win, I think, is this whole new generation, who will never get stuck in that major

label system to begin with. It’s already happened in publishing, and now it’s happening in records. We’ve cracked radio with our In2une acquisition, and we have multiple Top 40 radio songs [in the US], so the economics for artists with AWAL are amazing.

I predict that within three years there will be a full restructuring of [the major music companies].

It will be very difficult for anyone in this market to justify a $2bn to $5bn annual cost structure.

Tell us more about the so-called ‘middle tier’ of artists, and the ‘bigger artist ecosystem’ which AWAL wants to build?

A whole segment of artists are struggling to live with the ‘Hunger Games’ model; there is no money coming out of that system for them. We’re going to create a situation where 100,000 artists exist in the future and earn significant money from their recorded music each year.

We were designed for this. We don’t have the heavy, legacy cost structure of the [major] companies. We are here to drive an economic revolution for artists.

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This is a very exciting opportunity. Still now, some major labels drop you from US radio after [promoting for] eight weeks, maybe nine if you’re lucky.

Then no-one around the world [in the same major company] will want to touch you if you have ‘flopped’ in a proven territory – you are damaged goods. That’s a highly dangerous position to put yourself in.

It took 12 weeks at US radio before Lauv was biting and we were able to accelerate [that popularity]. We ended up working this for 50+ weeks on US radio. And we understand that it’s a very global world: we recently processed data from China for the first time, a unique global event. We could do that because NetEase [Kobalt’s partner in China] gives us data where other major players out there do not.

We demand more than just a check from China; we need data, so we know who to pay.

NetEase has more than 450 million users, and 30% of what they play is international music.

That’s an interesting sign of what will happen in China; driven by the younger generation, international music will become bigger than it is today.

We’re hearing a lot of huge numbers attached to Universal Music Group right now, which is potentially up for sale – or, at least, half of it is. What’s your reaction to that?

Since day one of Kobalt I’ve said that music is significantly undervalued. I still believe that we are thinking of it in the wrong way.

You can buy the music [rights] industry today for around $100bn, maybe a bit higher with Universal’s recent valuations.

But let’s think about the amount of value music drives elsewhere.

People say up to that 20% of Apple’s market cap is driven by music. And that is an $850bn company, judging by its market

Tom Misch

cap. Over 35% of YouTube streams are driven by music, and some estimate [YouTube] as a $150bn business. Tencent is a $500bn company, and we know that music is very important in driving its social media activity. Amazon is $900bn company and they also have a commitment to music.

“OVER 35% OF YOUTUBE STREAMS ARE DRIVEN BY MUSIC. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE VALUE MUSIC DRIVES FOR [TECH] COMPANIES, IT’S HUGE.” If you start thinking about the value which music drives for these types of companies, it’s huge. So my belief is music is undervalued.

You’re talking about what happens when you remove the music from those massive platforms: what are these big

properties worth when you take it away?

85% of all people in the world consider music as essential or very important. And 70% of internet users around the world access licensed music, according to the IFPI. Amazon Music and Echo speakers are great examples of how important music is to a major tech company. They help drive a new product category and/or enrich their customer’s experience. Music is such an important driver at these major technology companies – and all of them understand its importance.

Would you have cause to worry if a giant corporation like some of those you mention bought Universal?

Yes, I think so. It sets off potentially a chain reaction – if one buys, what do the rest do? It’s like Reservoir Dogs!

But even if that battlefield happens, I know that Kobalt will be here taking care of the new music industry – and that’s a very different ball game.

This interview first appeared on MBW in June 2019.

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Tamara Hrivnak: What’s Facebook’s game plan in music?

In late 2017, Facebook announced a global licensing deal with Universal Music Group – covering the use of music on FB, Instagram and VR platform Oculus. Over the following few months, we learned of similar agreements involving the likes of Warner Music Group, Sony/ATV (and Sony Music) and a host of independent labels via Merlin and others.

These deals put paid to long74

held tensions between music rights-holders and Facebook.

(They also came with large checks, but limited usage reporting requirements on FB’s side, according to MBW’s sources.)

Since Facebook signed these crucial agreements, the social media giant has publicly unveiled the first wave of its music strategy.

Rather than launching an audio streaming player to rival the

likes of Spotify and Apple Music, FB has instead introduced a numbers of features which consumers can use to decorate their content with licensed music, and which artists can use to better communicate with their audience – and better promote their wares.

Examples include licensed music clip soundtracks (via ‘Stickers’) being made available

to be added to Instagram and Facebook ‘Stories’ , in addition to the launch of Lip Sync Live – a tool which allows Facebook users to lip sync along to their favorite tracks, and share the video result.

(Initially, Lip Sync Live seemed like a natural rival to Musical.ly, the karaoke platform acquired

by Bytedance for $800m in 2017 which would go on to fuel the phenom now known as TikTok.) These features haven’t gone unnoticed by artists keen to take advantage of Facebook’s tech.

In August, for single Pieces Of Us, Mark Ronson released the song’s official music video on his Instagram Story. Dubbed ‘the future of music videos’ the production was purposefully made for Stories using real-time AR effects, and was periodically reposted in consecutive 24-hour cycles, each offering the viewer a different kind of interaction.

Others have used Facebook’s tools for more brazen promotional purposes: Ed Sheeran & Justin Bieber teased recent single I Don’t Care via a pre-release Sticker on Insta; Major Lazer, J Balvin, and El Alfa made their collaborative track Que Calor available as a pre-release sticker on Facebook and IG a week before its official launch, while they also posted their own IG Stories encouraging fans to presave their track on Spotify.

Meanwhile, the likes of Jess Glynne (for UK hit Thursday) and boy band Why Don’t We (for 8 Letters) have posted content via Lip Sync Live to spread the word of their priority singles.

All the while, Facebook’s global reach in music has continued to spread.

After launches in territories such as the US, UK, Germany and France, ‘Music on Facebook’ has this summer made its way to Brazil, in addition to other Latin American territories like Colombia, Chile, Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia. And earlier this

month, Facebook expanded its music offering to seven new European markets (including the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark and Finland), taking its total EMEA reach to over 30 countries.

Facebook’s game plan in music is being driven by Tamara Hrivnak, the firm’s Head of Music Business Development and Partnerships.

When Hrivnak was hired by FB back in January 2017, her name carried both familiarity and respect in music biz circles: Hrivnak spent eight years at Warner Music Group in roles including Vice President, Digital Business Affairs & Strategy for Warner/Chappell before joining Google in 2011, where she became Director Of Music Partnerships at YouTube and Google Play .

Since leaving Google to join

and Instagram are places with audiences all over the world and we care deeply about bringing the music that’s most important to people, and local to them. so we took our time to make sure that we had partnerships in all of the right places – both global players, and local labels and societies. We want to do [things] in the right way.

Do you have any updates on the popularity of music stickers?

Music Stickers are one of our most popular music products, so we’re really excited to see the early results of [that], both on Instagram and Facebook. People are using Stickers as a soundtrack to their everyday moments, and artists are using them both to tease new releases in pre-release phase – an exclusive glimpse at a coming track – and also to

“WE TOOK OUR TIME TO MAKE SURE WE HAD PARTNERSHIPS IN ALL OF THE RIGHT PLACES – GLOBAL AND LOCAL PLAYERS. WE WANTED TO DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY.” Mark Zuckerberg’s company, Hrivnak has pinched a few key hires from Record Label Land, while driving forward with a strategy to bring music and Facebook closer together on a global basis.

Here, Hrivnak tells MBW about Facebook’s broader ambitions in music, what it would like to improve as time goes on – and why she thinks the firm is “filling a gap” in the streaming age...

You just launched Facebook in seven new EU territories. Why did it take a while for these features to reach these markets?

There are lots of music rights players around the world and we prioritize them all. Facebook

promote projects that they’re working on.

The third use case [of Music on Facebook], my favorite, is artists simply sharing and having fun to create an evergreen connection with their fans. A great example of folks who do that well are J Balvin and Ariana Grande, [while] artists like Taylor Swift have used music stickers to promote big singles, like [in Swift’s case] ME!.

Instagram [recently] launched a version of music Stickers we call lyric Stickers. In addition to the track playing in the background to your Story, you’re visually seeing the lyrics in that snippet on screen. We think that feature has great legs, and has really brought a new dimension to how 75

Hrivnak on stage with Warner CEO Steve Cooper at the Paley Center, New York in November 2019

people and artists tell their stories with music.

Lip Sync Live has huge potential, with Facebook’s global MAU reach – 2.37bn at last count – combined with the power of interactive music. Obviously TikTok has made some big noise in that space. Do you think you can become the global market leader in that paradigm, where interactivity meets music and video?

On Lip Sync Live, the most important thing is that it’s extremely fun for fans and artists alike. We want to harness the fun in it, but more specifically we want to give artists the ability to connect with fans in a way that’s more authentic, and less produced. I don’t think we prioritize one [Facebook music] feature versus any other, but what we really care about is the 76

authenticity of the connection and the depth of community we’re able to foster.

I am guessing that Facebook’s hope with these music features – and the associated licensing deals – is to grow and please its audience. What do you find to be the main aims of the music business, and how are you delivering on that?

To poke at the premise of the question a little, our main goal is to fill a hole in the digital ecosystem.

When we look at digital music today, we see that music streaming has become very powerful and popular, and we think that’s wonderful; it means strength in the business of delivering plays and playlists.

But what has gotten lost in the evolution of music to digital is the ability for artists to tell their

stories outside of their music, to connect the tracks on an album together, and to connect with fans. We’re seeking to fill that gap, which we think is an important opportunity both for artists and for people. That’s our main goal.

We share with our partners the desire to fill that gap in the ecosystem. Partners often describe this [opportunity] as using the magic of social and bringing it to music – there’s always been this elusive [understanding] that social is important to music, and I think Facebook and Instagram have come to the table to really deliver on that.

The other thing our partners are excited about, and we share this optimism, is the ability to partner across our family of apps and services. Unlike other technology services who might create a single-destination music

[platform], we’re looking to put music where people already are, and where they’re sharing and connecting. That presents a new, different and expansive opportunity for music that we’re all excited about.

Music licensing didn’t always have the best reputation on Facebook before you arrived at the company. There were a lot of takedown requests coming from publishers like UMPG just a few years back.

I want to share a bit more context around that moment in time.

Around the time I joined Facebook, Mark [Zuckerberg] had shared with the world that he believed the future of community building and connection would happen through video. That really marked a moment where the company plan became videofirst, and we’ve [subsequently] seen that through our ongoing development of AR, VR and [drive] to create things like the Portal [hardware].

In a version of the future that is video-first, there are simply more opportunities for music, and for media more generally. I joined Facebook at an important time, when all of that was just [starting] to take place.

We see that moment, and the coming together with the music industry, as our collective ability to seize those opportunities in a new era.

How has your professional experience helped you bring Facebook and rightsholders closer together?

I’ve always believed that music and tech [have] suffered from not speaking the same language. The benefit of [Hrivnak] having worn all the hats – in a record label, a music publisher and in multiple tech companies – is seeing both the challenges and opportunities that we have from all sides.

I’ve endeavored to hire people

who are like-minded; people who come to Facebook as industry veterans, whose No.1 passion is growing the digital music opportunities for artists, writers and people.

I believe that context, experience and understanding brings a great deal to our ability to partner closely with the industry – and to make our way around the world [as a licensed service] in a reasonably quick timeline.

Is there an aim at Facebook to provide music rights-holders with more sophisticated reporting tools as time goes on?

In a word, yes. Absolutely.

We have built an awful lot of infrastructure to support our partners in music in a very short amount of time. Most of the infrastructure and tools are in

more]... We really appreciate being a platform where each of those music services can tap into to reach our audience and grow music’s core business.

That is already working, and we’re proud and happy to be a part of growing that core digital music business. Instead [of competing with Spotify et al] we wanted to focus on the gaps in the digital ecosystem that we see, and that we can specifically deliver on: social connections and storytelling between artists and fans, and amongst fans beyond that.

How would you characterize Facebook’s general relationship with music rightsholders as we stand?

Positive, and optimistic. The optimism really comes from the fact that Facebook offers a

“MUSIC AND TECH HAVE ALWAYS SUFFERED FROM NOT SPEAKING THE SAME LANGUAGE. I HAVE SEEN THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES FROM ALL SIDES.” beta [currently], and they’re in beta because we’re working together with our partners to make sure they meet the industry’s needs.

All of our tools will be evolving and improving, including those for reporting, to meet the industry’s needs; that is something that’s important to us.

Why is Facebook’s strategy, so far, one of ‘soundtracking’ user content as opposed to a fullblown, conventional on-demand music service?

Facebook is in a unique position in the market because we partner with many of the folks who are most successful in being amazing music listening services: Apple Music, Spotify, Deezer [and

differentiated opportunity that spans the entire family of our apps and services. It has to do in part with the way Facebook has reached out to the industry with its desire to build that video-first future together.

When I [worked at record labels/publishers], it was not uncommon to be presented with a proposition and to be asked to put your rights into it, and then, ‘See you in two or three years!’

That’s really not our model.

Our model is to work closely with our industry partners in order to harness the value and opportunities that are out there and to do that together.

This interview first appeared on MBW in October 2019.

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Rodney Jerkins: ‘We have to understand: without the song, there is no artist.’

There is very little room for doubt in Rodney Jerkins’ life. Never has been: “From the age of 10, I knew exactly what I was going to do; didn’t even consider anything else.”

His phrasing, as you’d expect from a man who has written some of the greatest (and biggest) R&B/pop hits in the last 25 years, is well chosen: “what I was going to do” – not the wishy-washy, mere mortal “wanted to do”.

There was a different type of certainly about music throughout Jerkins’ childhood: the definite

artists including Mary J. Blige, Beyoncé, Justin Bieber, Madonna, Brandy, Sam Smith, Jennifer Lopez, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Toni Braxton, Janet Jackson, Destiny’s Child and The Spice Girls.

And the certainty remains. “I bet on myself. And if that means a whole year you’re not in the charts or a whole year you’re not on the radio, well that’s the risk, that’s the bet – but you carry on believing. Stay disciplined, stay focused on your craft and there will be huge rewards. There is no multiple that compares to the

“I BET ON MYSELF. IF YOU’RE NOT IN THE CHARTS OR ON THE RADIO FOR A WHOLE YEAR, THAT’S THE RISK, THAT’S THE BET – BUT YOU CARRY ON BELIEVING.” divide between what could be listened to at home, and what he was discovering on the sly.

“Secular music was forbidden in our house, so at nine or ten, I would have to sneak out to listen to other music: Michael Jackson, The Beatles, Earth Wind & Fire, The Bee Gees, and then the whole New Jack Swing era, all the stuff produced by Teddy Riley, those were the records and artists that inspired me. At home the only two artists I listened to were [contemporary gospel artists] The Winans and Commissioned.”

The spirituality behind one and the stature of another laid down the twin tracks of Jerkins’ future life and career, one that has seen him write for and with

multiples that I’ve received when I’ve bet on myself.”

How did you set about making that belief you had as a 10 yearold into a reality?

It started to happen when I was about 14 and I had an opportunity to play my music for Teddy Riley.

At that time Teddy Riley was probably the hottest producer in the States. I got this opportunity to play him my music and he really liked it; hearing him say that gave me the extra push to pursue it.

How did that opportunity come about?

There was a local band in New Jersey, I had written and 79

With Maria Carey

produced their demo, and they met Teddy Riley at the Impact convention in Atlantic City, he listened to the demo and said, ‘Tell whoever produced this that he’s really good.’ I took the initiative and said to my father, ‘Come on, let’s go meet Teddy Riley; his studio’s in Virginia Beach, let’s drive down there.’

We got on the road for six hours and we ended up in his parking lot, waiting for Teddy Riley. He finally showed up, I went up to 80

him and asked him if I could play my music for him and he said yes.

So despite initially only being allowed to play church music at home, at this stage your father has become supportive of your ambitions?

Yeah, I think once he heard the music I was creating, he started to realize, Okay, my son has a gift, and I need to stand behind that gift and whatever he wants to pursue.

Did you always see your career evolving more behind the scenes than in the spotlight?

In my early teenage years I was an artist as well, but when I got into writing and producing for other artists, I kind of wanted to be the person behind the scenes, helping other people grow rather than be the one in the limelight.

I never craved the limelight; I wanted to make my name as someone who helped other people achieve their goals.

Is that to do with what you enjoy or is it part of your personality?

I think it’s my personality, y’know, if a guy is wide open, give them the ball, let them take the shot and let them shine.

How did you parlay Teddy Riley’s approval into a career in the business?

That happened when I was about 16. I sent a tape to a guy who used to work at Uptown Records, named James Jones, he liked it and I ended up moving in with him at Hackensack, New Jersey,

“I NEVER CRAVED THE LIMELIGHT: I WANTED TO MAKE MY NAME AS SOMEONE WHO HELPED OTHER PEOPLE ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS.” working with him. One of my first sessions was with Patti LaBelle.

How important has independence and autonomy been to you from the beginning, rather than being tied to a certain label or studio?

I was offered those deals early on, I was offered a deal when I was 13 to work at a studio in Atlantic City; I turned that down. I was offered to sign to Teddy Riley’s company; I turned that down. I was offered to sign to Sean Combs’ company, Bad Boy, to be one of his producers; I turned that down.

I think that was just the entrepreneurial spirit in me at an early age – like if I could do it on my own, I gotta take that chance.

For me it’s always been about taking risks on myself.

Most people in life look for stability, but I’ve learned that my

With Michael Jackson

stability is in God. Which were the songs and projects that then elevated you to the level where you really started to get noticed?

When I was around 19, I got to work with Mary J Blige on her Share My World album [1997, No. 1 and triple-Platinum in the US], and then It’s Not Right But It’s Okay [by Whitney Houston, 1998, No. 1 in 10 countries, No. 4 in the US] and The Boy is Mine [by Brandy & Monica, 1998, No.

1 in the US, No. 2 in the UK], then writing and producing the majority of Brandy’s Never Say Never album [1998, No. 2 in the US, global sales of 10m+, Jerkins co-wrote 10 of the 16 tracks].

Then pushing forward with Say My Name by Destiny’s Child [1999, US No. 1, two Grammys], Jenifer Lopez’s If You Have My Love [1999, US No. 1], Toni Braxton’s He Wasn’t Man Enough [2000, US No. 2, UK No. 5], Michael Jackson’s Rock My World [2001, Jackson’s last US Top 10 before his death].

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I live and breathe confidence, but when I got into a room with Michael, y’know, I’m there with the King of Pop. But then after I got into a rhythm with him, and we became friends, it became easier and easier.

I learned so much from working with Michael; that was like college for me. He taught me so much about creativity and song writing and production – so many jewels and gems I will never forget. I utilize all those tools to this day.

With Quincy Jones

That spell was back-to-back-toback-to-back hit records.

You were still a very young man at that point, and you’re working with the caliber of artists you mentioned there; was any of it intimidating for you?

Nah, I remember my first time working with Mary J Blige, it was like, Wow, I’m in a room with a superstar, but once I was in there, Okay, let me do what I do and let me try and bring the best out of you.

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I’ve never been one to have any doubts or fears; if anything I get more confident in that environment.

What was working with Michael Jackson like [as well as Rock My World, Jerkins wrote six tracks on parent album, Invincible, 2001, a No. 1 in the US and UK]?

That was amazing. Going back to what I just said, I gotta say, that was probably the only intimidating moment of my career.

Which of your songs are you proudest of?

I think there are three [songs] which I can be certain will stand the test of time.

One is The Boy Is Mine by Brandy & Monica, that will always live on. And it was my first No. 1.

Then Say My Name by Destiny’s Child. That is my favorite song that I ever produced. I’d been working in London with The Spice Girls and this was the first track that I created when I got back to the States. So many people to this day sing that song back to me.

And another song that’s becoming a classic right now is Michael Jackson’s Rock My World.

Unfortunately, back when it came out, there was no real marketing for that album [Invincible]. He didn’t really promote it. But now that song is growing and growing, all over the world.

Of course there are more than those three that I’m proud of, but I’ll pick those ones out for you.

You mentioned the Spice Girls, and sometimes you are asked to work with very mainstream pop artists – is that something that you enjoy?

Yeah, it happens, you know. I worked with Lady Gaga, I worked with Justin Bieber, Pussycat Dolls, lots of different artists.

In the beginning I was only doing R&B, but then R&B started crossing over to pop and I started getting those phone calls. I’m

always open to work with anyone, because I want that challenge.

How do you write? How do you start the process?

Always melody first. Whether that’s me on a piano, starting with a progression, or it’s me humming a melody and finding a progression to the melody, it’s almost always melody first.

Is that a less common starting point in the business these days?

I think you have a lot of people who start with beats, but I believe that melody is king and that it’s melody that lives on – more so than the beat.

What’s your approach to collaboration and the increasing number of names being credited to each track?

I think you evolve with the times.

of the songwriter is the kind of person you want to align yourself with. Because I believe the songwriter is an artist in their own right. We have to understand: without the song, there is no artist. It all starts with a song.

So, with networking, make sure you align yourself with people who really care about songwriters.

You’ve obviously worked with some amazing artists, but are there some who you got close with but just missed out on?

Yeah, I was very close to working with Mick Jagger. When I was working with Michael, I met with Mick at the Plaza Hotel in New York, we talked about working together, but unfortunately it didn’t come to fruition because I was so busy with Michael’s project at that time. To this day I regret that.

“I LIVE AND BREATHE CONFIDENCE, BUT WHEN I GOT IN A ROOM WITH MICHAEL, Y’KNOW, I’M THERE WITH THE KING OF POP. BUT THEN AFTER, WE BECAME FRIENDS.” There was a period of time when it might have been one or two people in a studio, now you look at the charts and you see eight or 10 names on a song.

But sometimes people are just looking for a line that might be really special, that they couldn’t nail and someone else comes in and does what they couldn’t do. I would always support the collaborative effort.

How important is networking – and the role of a publisher – in this environment, where it’s about getting in the right room and getting the right collaborations?

Yeah, networking is important, and the person who cares about the songwriter, and the rights

Are there any current artists who you want to work with?

Yeah, I think every producer and songwriter looks at certain artists and says to themselves, Man, if I could get in a studio with them, I know I could do magic. I feel that way about Adele. I’ve always been really great working with female voices, and I just feel like if I ever had the opportunity then something special would come out of it.

How do you feel about Spotify and other streaming services appealing the CRB ruling?

The streaming services are great for our industry, because they allow a lot more entrepreneurship for artists, it allows them to be discovered, very quickly, and I love

that. Are songwriters being paid fairly by them? Absolutely not.

And hopefully in years to come that will change.

There are people taking strong stances on it, and I believe that it is all gonna change. Give it some time, it won’t happen overnight, and of course everyone’s going to fight for themselves at the beginning, but I do believe that songwriters will eventually be paid fairly. Because, as I say, the streaming services are great, but they need our songs to be great and to continue to be great.

Who are your favorite songwriters of all time?

For me it would be Rod Temperton, he was amazing. And Stevie Wonder is a genius. If you go back and dissect his style of writing, and see how he was able to have such simple discussions and conversations, but also be so intricate as well.

What would your advice be for young songwriters?

Perfect your gift. I believe that sometimes we don’t do enough research. We want to write and we want to make music, but we don’t want to take the time to study. Go back and study: Why was this song great in 1952?

Why was this song great in 1960?

What made this song special in 1970? Why did people connect to those songs?

Study the sound of each decade, see how things change, but also look for similarities – what connects them?

I think that all goes towards perfecting your art. Before jumping in, take the time to study and perfect.

Although, it’s funny, I’m telling people to work hard, and I don’t believe I’ve ever worked a day in my life – because I love what I do.

The studio’s my playground.

This interview first appeared on MBW in June 2019.

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Hartwig Masuch: BMG’s billion-dollar aim BMG will turn over comfortably more than $600m in 2019, after seeing its YoY revenues rise 11.4% in the first six months of the year. The company’s CEO, Hartwig Masuch, tells MBW that Bertelsmann-owned BMG now expects to generate one billion dollars per year as soon as 2022.

Yet, as the old saying goes, revenue is vanity... but profit is sanity. And, as excited as he would be to see BMG’s annual sales hit ten figures, Masuch is determined to keep his focus on the latter measure.

The Berlin-based exec acknowledges that “a [$1bn turnover] is definitely a target

company’s operating EBITDA margin shot up even faster, by 16.7% (to €49m/$56m) in the same period.

This means that BMG’s operating EBITDA margin now sits at a very healthy rate of 18.2%.

Impressively, BMG has secured this level of profitability despite basing its business on giving far more money to artists, as a rule, than traditional major label deals.

Typically, BMG offers a recorded music deal which sees artists receive a 75% share of revenue, with 25% retained by the company. This split buys the artist core services like royalty collection, product management

“WE’RE GROWING OUR EBITDA. WE’RE ABLE TO KEEP A VERY RATIONAL COST BASE, WHILE STILL PARTICIPATING IN ALL THE GLORY AND FUN OF THE MODERN MUSIC BUSINESS.” we set ourselves over the next three to five years”, but notes that a number of market factors – including a “big crisis” in industry valuations – could affect BMG’s fiscal journey, whether positively or otherwise. (For example, if industry valuations suddenly sink, BMG might be able to snap up some tasty music rights at attractive prices, accelerating its revenues.)

Importantly, Masuch adds: “We won’t be losing any sleep if, after five years, our revenues aren’t at [$1bn] but our profit [margin] stays where it is today.”

His point: BMG is, increasingly, a more profitable company.

Its revenues might have risen 11.4% year-on-year in H1 2019 (to €269m/$305m), but the

and accounting, while other label services – including marketing spend, PR and physical distribution – are layered on via optional additional costs.

Masuch, who credits BMG’s expanding profit margin to the “scalability” of his company’s publishing and recordings catalog as streaming grows globally, told MBW: “One of the most important achievements in the past 10 years was that we were able to transform the music industry cost structure that is necessary to bring artists global success.

“That’s why you see us growing our EBITDA without [major] acquisitions on a [typical artist deal rate of] 75/25 or 70/30. We’re able to keep a very rational cost 85

BMG publishing client Lewis Capaldi

base, and still participate in all the glory and fun of the modern music industry.”

If you didn’t pick up on it, Masuch appears to be questioning the cost structure of the major music companies – whose EBITDA margins have, in the past few years, weighed in lower than BMG’s (alongside, it should be noted, far higher annual revenues than the Bertelsmann company’s).

Says Masuch: “The question for the shareholders [of major music companies] is this: ‘Hey, what was the rationale for the in-manyways irrational cost structure of the music industry [in years gone by]?’ Well, one part of it was that you needed incredibly talented [label] heads to break new artists.

“But the ratio of that part of the business [i.e. the blockbuster global superstar business] is getting smaller as a percentage 86

[of the overall record industry]: and, at the end of the day, there will always be a No.1, whether you all spend $2m [on marketing] and pay your executives $5m a year, or whether you spend less [on marketing] and pay them $500,000.

“The logic of that structure will be increasingly questioned.

Because the costs you incur there, ultimately, end up being the costs of artists.”

Masuch believes the fiscal model of music’s biggest companies will increasingly face pressure in the modern industry, as artists are able to demand more lucrative (i.e. BMG-style) splits – and/or, indeed, take back ownership of their rights following copyright reversions.

He admits that, internally, when his frontline recorded music heads look to approve advances for their biggest deals, he applies

a simple test of logic: how many streams will it take for BMG to earn its money back?

This idea makes for an interesting thought experiment when you apply it to the salaried leaders of the blockbuster music industry.

For example: let’s take the $5m wage for the hypothetical high-rolling label executive cited

by Masuch above. Applying a very broad per-stream Spotify royalty payout rate of $0.004 for recorded music industry rightsholders, it would take 1.25bn streams in order for a record company to generate $5m per year. (For context: according to Kworb, only six tracks have ever topped 1.25bn plays on Spotify: Ed Sheeran’s Shape Of You; Post Malone’s Rockstar; The Chainsmokers’ Closer; Drake’s One Dance; Drake’s God’s Plan; and Camila Cabello’s Havana.

Although these are obviously all single tracks on a single service.)

Now consider the fact that Masuch believes, pretty soon, most record industry artist deals will start to mirror BMG’s 25/75 or 30/70 splits in favor of the acts themselves.

In this case, with a 30% royalty margin, an executive on $5m a year would need to bring in over 4 billion streams just to square off their own annual salary – let alone the advances they pay out over the same 12 months in order to attract artists (whose deals they hope will become profitable).

Masuch has a further point to make here, too.

“The deals for big hits today are much more aggressive [in terms of artist splits] than people think,” he says.

“We all know the cost of that [frontline] part of the business will drastically go up as artists have a higher demand on the share of royalties they get, and you have to translate that into your business model.

“In my view, some of the most

talked-about companies [in music] haven’t made enough effort to do this so far. The shit will hit the fan sooner rather than later!”

Specifically, what kind of frontline artists deal structures is Masuch referring to? His answer leads on to his other big concern about the modern music business – the confidence of investment analysts in the bright future for record labels, and the knock-on effect this has on certain huge valuations.

Masuch shares the bullishness of the likes of Enders and even Goldman Sachs on the future of streaming, both in terms of the format’s global reach, and the number of subscribers who might pay for services like Spotify in the decade ahead.

But, he says, he doesn’t believe this volume growth will necessarily translate into the profits of music companies whose current catalog rights are, generally speaking, based on a deal split that sees them retain the vast majority of royalties.

“I don’t agree that you can convert topline [streaming] growth forecasts one-to-one with the old metric of [a record company’s current] contribution margin and arrive at their future EBITDA,” says Masuch. “A big part of today’s business is driven by catalog and established recordings. There is a large question mark over when those historical deals terminate or have legal reversions, because when those things happen you’ll see an incredible rise in royalty payments [to artists and away from their labels].

“A lot of rights from big catalog deals will revert to artists; and those deals won’t renew with a headline royalty rate of 25% minus packaging deductions; they will clearly change so [the artist earns] above 50% of digital income. This factor is totally ignored right now in almost

every analysis you read, because nobody out there owns as much as they pretend to own.”

As for BMG, it will increasingly become known as a record company itself.

Masuch expects BMG’s recordings business to tip the scales and become a bigger annual earner than its publishing operation across its business “in the next 24 months, at the latest”.

Masuch adds: “It takes some time to introduce a new paradigm into the way you do business like BMG has done – and we are now seeing exponential interest in working with us. I’m surprised about the incoming interest we are [increasingly seeing] from major recording artists.”

“A BIG PART OF TODAY’S BUSINESS IS DRIVEN BY CATALOG. THERE IS A LARGE QUESTION MARK OVER WHEN THOSE HISTORICAL DEALS TERMINATE.” According to internal data seen by MBW, the company saw 56% of its revenues in H1 2019 – or $171m – derived from digital formats.

BMG’s big revenue-generating recorded music projects in the first six months of 2019 were, in order: (i) Avril Lavigne’s Head Above Water; (ii) Kontra K’s Sie Wollten Wasser Doch Kriegen Benzin; (iii) Jason Aldean’s Rearview Town; (iv) Dido’s Still On My Mind; and (v) Keith Richards’ Talk Is Cheap (reissue).

The firm’s big publishing successes included breakout British star Lewis Capaldi, in addition to Juice WRLD and

Bring Me The Horizon. In a memo sent to colleagues following the announcement of BMG’s results, obtained by MBW, Masuch noted that the company confidently expects its second half 2019 revenues to outperform its H1 results. Said Masuch: “Delivering for artists and songwriters is why we are here. That is our brief.

Unlike some, we are not here to maximize our share price: we are privately owned; we have no ‘share price’.

“We are not here to buy songs and recordings and then ‘flip’ them, nor are we trying to create a technology ‘unicorn’.

Instead we work with artists and songwriters to optimize their careers and their income.”

He added: “We don’t believe that artists and songwriters exist for the convenience of music companies. We believe music companies should exist to serve artists and songwriters. The music industry would be a much healthier business if everyone held this view. As long as they do not, however, this can only work to our advantage.”

One area BMG isn’t likely to be focusing its attention for the time being is major-league rights acquisitions, focusing instead on organic growth.

In his internal note, Masuch referenced recent venture capital and private equity-driven buyouts across both recorded music and publishing which, in his view, are driving multiples to a level which may end up disappointing certain investors.

“Between 2009 and 2016 when we made 100 significant acquisitions, virtually no one else was buying music assets,” he said.

“Now we are in the middle of a feeding frenzy which has pushed prices in some cases beyond all reason, a game BMG is unwilling to play.”

This interview first appeared on MBW in September 2019.

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Tayla Parx: ‘My challenge to myself is: make sure you’re writing with people who make you better.’

Immediately before MBW speaks to Tayla Parx, there are two pressing and contradictory concerns: On one hand, Will we talk about Thank U, Next enough?

On the other, Will we talk about Thank U, Next too much?

The day after, there is one pressing concern: can we get another half an hour with her?

Because by then Ariana Grande has dropped 7 Rings – on which, like Thank U, Next, Parx is a co-writer. 7 Rings immediately becomes the biggest song in the world, breaking Spotify’s Most Streams In 24 Hours record in the process (clocking up just shy of 15m plays whilst the earth turns just the once).

This news came a month after Vevo confirmed that Thank U, Next had reached 100m plays faster than any other video in the platform’s history. And the month before that, the track had become the fastest to reach 100 million Spotify streams, hitting the landmark in just 11 days.

Perhaps the most remarkable thing about Tayla Parx’s current stratospheric level of success is that even if you took her role within Team Grande out of the picture, the 25-year-old songwriter would still have had a stellar 12 months by anyone’s measure.

Parx co-wrote Khalid and Normani’s Top 10 US hit, Love Lies; she has four cuts on Janelle Monae’s Grammy-nominated Dirty Computer album; she co-wrote Christina Aguilera’s comeback single, Accelerate (and had four more tracks on the subsequent album, Liberation).

Oh, and if you were thinking of 88

pigeon-holing her, think again; she’s also credited on High Hopes, the biggest hit of Panic!

At The Disco’s career (No. 6 in the States in summer 2018).

Warner Chappell signing Parx, then, is the definition of hot right now. Her current commercial success and industry recognition has undoubtedly been jetpropelled by her membership of Grande’s creative inner circle.

But, whilst there is a sort of (carefully projected) sorority/ sleepover vibe to that set-up, Parx’s place in it is all about craft and graft rather than pillow fights and pinky promises.

As far as her work and relationship with Grande is concerned, Parx hasn’t got lucky – she’s got recognized and rewarded. Before her current burst of global hits, Dallas-born Parx had already written big songs with (and for) artists such as Mariah Carey, Fifth Harmony, Chris Brown, Alicia Keys and Demi Lovato.

Before that she was a successful child actress, appearing in the cult 2007 movie Hairspray and in various TV shows, including Nickelodeon’s True Jackson, VP. Grande, born in the same year as Parx (1993), also found fame first on Nickelodeon (four seasons in Victorious, in which Parx also appeared). But, whilst this was when the pair first met, and what provided common ground, a far more important similarity was that they both knew it was music that was their true calling.

There will be a shift of gears later this year, as Parx’s debut album, We Need To Talk, comes out on her own label, Tayla Made, via Atlantic Records.

Whilst it marks a new chapter, it does not mean a change in career. Parx is still a songwriter.

She says: “I will never stop writing for other artists. Will I be more choosy about which artists I write for? Yes. But listen, I write about 200 songs a year, and I

can’t release them all!”

She adds: “Sometimes I wake up and I want to write a rock song; sometimes I wake up and I want to write a country song. And I love the fact that I can do that because it’s not always about me.”

Right now, more than ever, it is actually quite a lot about Parx.

As she prepares to embark on new projects with Dua Lipa and Sam Smith, as well as spending more time in Nashville working with some country artists, she is certain to add to her growing list of smash hits and make it harder to know which chart-busting banger to ask her about first.

started to turn around.

You mentioned acting, did that appeal to you as an alternative permanent career path?

It was something that I almost fell into. I took it on as a challenge.

I do like a challenge. 99.999% of the things I do in my career I do because they are challenging.

Ultimately, I decided it was distracting me too much from the thing that I love, and the thing that I need to dedicate myself to perfecting, which was music. [Acting] definitely helped me though, with the whole idea of getting into character when

“EVERYONE HAD BEEN SAYING: ‘THERE’S NO MONEY IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY!’ IT WASN’T UNTIL I WAS 15 YEARS OLD THAT [SITUATION] STARTED TO TURN AROUND.” One way out of that quandary, of course, is to start with other people’s…

it came to writing very personal songs, but from the point of view of another artist.

What was the music you loved growing up?

Back in Texas, where I’m from, my parents bought me a karaoke machine and the songs I remember learning and singing along to were Brian McKnight, Back At One and Babyface, When Can I See You? And the other artist I was exposed to early on, perhaps because she was a Texan as well, was Erykah Badu.

Now, looking back, I’m like, ‘Oh, they’re all singer/songwriters…’

Whilst the acting was taking off, were you already writing songs?

I started writing songs when I was 13, 14. After Hairspray, I wanted to go into music, but at that point, people saw me as an actress that was trying to sing. Basically I had to re-start my career and prove that I was meant to be in music.

My parents bought me Logic and the thinking was, If no one wants to write with you right now, do it yourself; just start. And that was great because it meant that I learned to engineer and produce, create my own beats and be really self-sufficient.

Did you think of songwriting, or music generally, as something you could make a living at?

Not until I was about 15, I don’t think; before that I’d only made money from acting. I think before then, everyone had been saying, ‘There’s no money in the music industry!’

It wasn’t until I was 15 that that

What got you on the first step on the ladder?

My big break was probably BO$$ by Fifth Harmony (2015), that’s when a lot of people in the industry started to hear my name, and became curious about 89

involves a lot of rejection, a lot of criticism, so I was tough.

And I was really lucky to have a lot of incredible people along the way who really believed in me, from the publishing side, to producers etc., it was important to have those people believe in me while I built my confidence as a writer. And I didn’t get that until I knew that I could be efficient and consistent, that’s when I got confident, when I knew I could go into the studio and deliver.

Ariana Grande

getting me into sessions. After that, I started to write with some of my favorite writers and producers, and that was fun for me.

women working where I was working and when I did that it helped me become more confident.

Were you nervous in those situations, or were you confident straight from the off?

I was working with people like Babyface and Tony Dixon and The Rascals, and it was very hard to be confident around such successful men, to be confident enough to blurt out an idea, and not think twice about it; that was a lot for me.

I had to learn to speak up, because these people not only had accolades over me, they had age over me.

But it actually inspired me to reach out and find other female producers, engineers, writers and artists, because I was always surrounded by men.

I became curious about other

I guess that’s key when it comes to songwriting, feeling safe and accepted, so you can expose yourself to a degree.

Totally, because at first I was just thinking, ‘Please don’t let me say anything stupid.’ Now I’m like, ‘Okay, I’m gonna say something stupid!’ [laughs].

Now I’m not afraid, because we might just be one more stupid idea away from a brilliant idea.

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Were those bad experiences – in those early days, in those first writing rooms you found yourself in?

Honestly, because I came from acting, which is a lot harsher than music, I had a tough skin. I’d had a career since I was 11, and acting

You mentioned the support you got from your publisher as you yourself went through that process of building confidence.

When did you sign to Warner Chappell, and it was Jon Platt himself who signed you, correct?

I met Big Jon when I was 18 or 19 and it took him being the amazing person he is to get me to sign that deal. I was always hearing horror stories about deals that had been signed; I was very anti the whole thing.

What I did in the end was, I held every single meeting with everyone who was interested [in signing her] in one week; like, this is the first and last time I am ever going to have this type of meeting [laughs].

Jon was the last one, and I ended up joining an amazing family – not just Jon, but also Katie Vinten and Ryan Press, it’s been awesome.

What was it about Jon that persuaded you 1) not all publishers are evil; 2) not all deals are terrible; and 3) Warner Chappell was the place for you?

I loved the fact that Jon was able to tell me the truth: you’re good, but you could be great. That was a challenge, and like I say, I love to be challenged.

I like somebody who pushes me to be better than I am and even better that I think I can be.

He took the time to listen to me, to get to know me, he talked

to my parents; he really took the time to build a relationship with me, and that’s why, even though he’s not at Warner Chappell anymore, we’ll stay in touch for the rest of my career and I’ll look to him for the rest of my career; he’s really like family to me.

How do you feel about him moving to Sony/ATV? Well, I understand why he did it, and we had a conversation about it, we have that type of relationship. I’m happy for him.

What were some of the highlights of your time as you developed as a songwriter, and who did you learn from?

So many things, from talking about publishing with Mariah Carey, to being creatively pushed to the max with Janelle Monae, who is an artist who is looking for something completely different.

There has always been something that I’ve learned from each of these sessions. There’s no one way to achieve success, and that’s what makes it interesting to listen to people’s stories.

It sounds like in terms of sheer fun, the sessions you did in 2018 with Ariana and her team were right up there.

Yes, that was the most fun session, or week of sessions, honestly. Because I don’t [usually] do two days of sessions back-toback, let alone a week. I’m like, I said what I had to say yesterday! [laughs]. But that was the most fun week that I had all year.

It was the most dramatic week as well, because there were so many highs and so many lows, all at once. But definitely, more than anything, so many laughs. And I think the only time you enjoy success this much is when you achieve it with friends.

Was there a particular area in the process where you stepped forward to contribute?

It’s across the board, but the majority of it was definitely melody; for me, melody is king.

Because this is such a personal story for Ariana, we had to really collaborate and talk everything through, talk about different relationships and then plug in the lyrics. But the melody was right there, boom. And that’s usually what I do first all the time, so in that respect it was no different, except this was a therapy session as well.

How do you feel about collaborations that include so many people? Do you ever hanker after writing something on your own – as you did when you started?

They both have their merits. It’s

“I LIKE [A PUBLISHER] WHO PUSHES ME TO BE BETTER THAN I AM – AND EVEN BETTER THAN I THINK I CAN BE.”

always good to have someone challenge your ideas, and it’s good sometimes to play devil’s advocate on someone else’s ideas. My only thing is, it has to be somebody who can challenge you and somebody who actually adds to the room, which is why I’ve gotten a little more choosy about who I collaborate with.

I felt like I was writing full songs and giving away [credit]… like this person was just being in the room, you know?

So now, my challenge to myself is: make sure you’re writing with people who make you better.

That’s all that matters and that’s the only reason somebody should be in the room anyway. I apply it to friendships, everything: be

around people who make you better.

Can you talk a bit about your relationship with Ariana: how it started and how it developed into something so special?

We had known each other but not worked together earlier in life.

We were both on Nickelodeon shows, we had a lot of mutual friends, so the friendship evolved very naturally.

Then I wrote on My Everything [second album, 2014], and that was when we both said, ‘Oh, I see what you’re doing here – and it’s nice to see you in the studio, not on set.’ And then we continued to watch each other grow and grow on the music side, plus we both backed away from acting at the same time.

We didn’t work together for years, and then last year they asked me to come out for the week to write. This was right after Love Lies, so I guess it was like: I’m a pop artist, your song is No.1 on pop radio, let’s do it.

And that turned into such a fun experience of re-connecting and becoming even closer than we had been in our entire lives, which is where we are now.

You’ve worked with her in the middle of a couple of extremely challenging as well as extremely successful years. What are the qualities in her that got her through those times and allowed her to flourish as an artist at the same time?

She is such a strong person. You have to be strong when you’re as caring as she is, because she cares so, so much. And it’s usually the ones who are sensitive and who care the most who get hurt the most. They have expectations of people and of life, and when that doesn’t happen, it takes a lot… but the thing is, she’s [pause] so [pause] strong. She has got through things that would send most people to the asylum.

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And part of the reason is that she used the most perfect outlet you can use: music.

Can you talk about the evolution of Thank U, Next? did you know it was going to connect with people like it did?

What we knew was that in 2018/2019, people really want to know these artists.

That’s something I’m aware of as a songwriter. So I always push artists to be real, to be genuine.

And for Ariana, she had no problem doing that, because she was working with me and Victoria (McCants) and Tommy (Brown) who are her friends, you know. It made her very open.

And it started with us wanting to write a song thanking, not bashing but thanking, each ex for what they’ve taught her – what she liked and what she learned.

I guess that song wouldn’t have come out of a different kind of room, in terms of demographic?

That’s completely right, yes. We went back and forth: is it too personal? But like I said, Ariana’s strong, and after what she’s gone through, she’s pretty much fearless.

How did you find working with Janelle Monae?

Well, usually I’m confined to the ‘rules’ of pop, but she is unafraid to push boundaries, and in fact wants to push boundaries. So the first thing I would think of, I would do the complete opposite.

Because I knew here was an artist who is not a ‘first thought’ kind of artist. It was probably one of the most challenging projects for me to be a part of, because she’s not straight to the point, not straightforward, we were discovering what we wanted this new sound to be together.

Is that something you enjoy or is it tough?

It was tough at times, but I 92

definitely enjoyed it and it was definitely good for me. I like any situation that helps me grow as a writer. And it was good that she challenged me, and everyone else, because she [was] nominated for Record of the Year.

Was it always the plan to push on as an artist in your own right and release your own album, or were you tempted, having seen the pressures of fame close up, to stay more behind the scenes?

It was more a question of deciding that I didn’t want to do the artistry until I know who I am as an artist. And then while I was working with all these artists, a lot of them started to ask me about my look and my fashion. So

“I WRITE ABOUT 200 SONGS A YEAR. SOMETIMES I WAKE UP AND WANT TO WRITE A ROCK SONG; SOMETIMES I WANT TO WRITE A COUNTRY SONG.” I figured, okay, I’ve found my own style here. And the next step was, how can I make my music sound how I look. And I think it does; it’s quirky, it’s fun.

I definitely wanted to become a great writer first and I knew that was going to take time.

And even now, with an album due, and even when I’m much further into my career as an artist, I will never stop writing for other artists. Will I be more choosy about which artists I write for? Yes. But listen, I write about 200 songs a year, and I can’t release them all! And they’re also not all me.

Sometimes I wake up and I want to write a rock song;

sometimes I wake up and I want to write a country song. And I love the fact that I can do that because it’s not always about me.

I look up to people like Missy Elliot because of that, how she was able not only to be successful in her own right, but also help build other artists’ careers.

I never want to be an artist that over-thinks it. Sometimes artists take so long, and the longer they take, the more pressure builds up, and it’s unnecessary – to me, in my mind. You become more and more afraid, more and more doubtful of yourself, you can trap yourself into trying to perfect something for years and years and years. And while you’re doing that, music is changing anyway!

Who are your favorite songwriters of all time?

I don’t like to pick favorites! [laughs] – but I’ll go with Babyface, Dolly Parton and Elton John.

Who are your favorite songwriters right now?

Probably Priscilla Renea and Ali Tamposi, those are two people I looked up to when I was growing up and when I was in college.

What’s your favorite song of all time?

Can I have two? Two songs I would never be able to let go of are If You Asked Me To, by Celine Dion and Donny Hathaway’s A Song For You. Oh, wait, also Whitney Houston, I Wanna Dance With Somebody!

Is there a career or a song catalog that you look at as a template?

I think probably Missy Elliot and Pharrell, because they’ve done everything: songwriters, producers, artists and label executives. They’ve created the blueprint for someone like me.

This interview first appeared on MBW in January 2019.

Elena Segal: ‘Songwriters and publishers should never be an afterthought for digital services.’

Elena Segal, a widely respected figure in music industry circles, was appointed as Apple Music’s first ever Global Director of Music Publishing in May 2018.

Segal, a qualified lawyer, originally joined Apple in 2006 after four years as an Associate at Los Angeles-based Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP. As Legal Director of iTunes, International, she oversaw a range of legal and licensing matters for iTunes and Apple Music. And in 2015, she headed up global

licensing for the launch of Apple Music itself, which arrived in over 100 markets simultaneously.

These days, Segal splits her time between London and LA, running a division at Apple designed to directly liaise with music publishers and songwriters across the industry.

Segal and Apple have recently swum against big-tech hegemony – refusing to appeal a ‘pay rise’ for songwriters in the US (secured via the market’s Copyright Royalty Board),

which has been controversially challenged by the likes of Spotify, Amazon and Google. (Segal’s closest counterpart at Spotify, Global Head of Publishing, Adam Parness, quit the Swedish service in 2019 – seemingly in protest at its CRB appeal.)

Reporting to global Apple Music boss Oliver Schusser, Segal just oversaw an interesting addition to her team, with the hire of Google’s Lindsay Rothschild, who last month became Apple Music’s Head 93

of Creative Services, Music Publishing, North America.

MBW caught up with Segal to discuss working at Apple, her personal passion for music publishing – and why the industry needs, in her view, to face the growing complexities of the digital rights business “head on”....

Apple has stood by the CRB decision, which could increase songwriter royalties in the States by at least 44%. Others, like Spotify, have appealed it, and been accused of effectively ‘suing songwriters’ as a result.

What does this tell us about Apple and how it’s differentiated from rival services?

It tells us that Apple really cares about creators and the process of creation, and wants to give life to a healthy creative ecosystem. The concept of [maintaining] a sustainable business model, while supporting the creative ecosystem, is fundamentally important to us. That differentiates us from other services anyway, but our position on the CRB has further differentiated us.

With the position we’ve taken on the CRB, that type of stance isn’t actually new. Apple has been fighting for over a decade to make sure that money flows and songwriters get paid. We’ve definitely done way more than anyone else on that kind of thing.

We just haven’t shouted about it.

Another thing that really differentiates us is Apple Music’s personal curation, and the human element we have – putting the creators first and really focusing on them and enabling their vision. On that topic, the Beats 1 team do a phenomenal job of digging out the most amazing new music and drawing artists and songwriters out of themselves.

Why is publishing considered worthy of its own division at 94

Apple Music?

Because without songwriting and publishing, there is no music. It’s fundamental to everything.

Publishing is something we’ve always taken care of, but it wasn’t until last year that it had a seat at the management table. It was absolutely necessary.

Songwriters and publishers shouldn’t be an afterthought; I think some services do consider them a sort of afterthought, or an inconvenience. They are not an inconvenience at Apple. They are a fundamental part of the ecosystem.

Yes, there is a great deal of complexity in the publishing

“APPLE HAS FOUGHT FOR OVER A DECADE TO MAKE SURE THAT MONEY FLOWS AND SONGWRITERS GET PAID... WE JUST HAVEN’T SHOUTED ABOUT IT.” business, and in some ways those complexities are only increasing.

But we have to face them head on, as a company, and as an industry.

To just consider them an inconvenience – not to tackle the issues and actually make sure that the creators get paid – is a massive mistake.

What kind of complexities most concern you about the music publishing business?

Greater agreement is needed on mechanical and performing rights splits. This is very technical, but it is so important.

On different formats – downloads, interactive streaming, non-interactive streaming etc. – there are different splits between

the mechanical and performing rights. And these splits are also different depending on which country your [music is played in].

Generally speaking, traditionally, a local collecting society [PRO] would set the split, but that has started to change in recent years.

There are local collecting societies around the world that have, and I’m trying to be a little diplomatic here... rubbed some of the music publishers up the wrong way. Some publishers feel like they haven’t seen the money that they should have seen, to be frank.

Oh dear.

As a result, there are trust issues.

These are adding to major historical trust issues in this industry, in various directions – between labels and publishers, and between publishers and collecting societies, for example.

As a result, some publishers now don’t want to just agree to whatever split the PRO in certain local countries wants to set.

Theoretically, services like us don’t have skin in this game. If [a PRO] wants to set their split at 70/30, or 50/50, or 85/15, that’s no business of ours, so long as it doesn’t add up to more than 100. But when it gets to the point where it does add up to more than 100... that’s a problem.

Everyone seems to agree it shouldn’t be our problem, but it becomes our problem if [the publishers and PROs] can’t come to an agreement themselves and where the two sets of rights aren’t licensed together by a single entity. It is a huge frustration.

Deciding how much of a royalty is a mechanical right and how much is a performing right shouldn’t be up to us. We shouldn’t have to have an opinion, or be involved in that [process].

Is there a conclusion on the horizon, a solution?

No. I would say not. The thing

that makes me unbelievably sad about it is that if these things can’t be agreed, it almost inevitably means that money gets held up in the system, and that means songwriters aren’t being paid – and that is wrong. But, at the same time, the answer can’t be, ‘Well, Apple, you should pay 150%.’

What else would you like to change about the modern music business?

A two word answer: Perfect data.

Again, this is to do with money getting held up in the system.

Fundamentally, we want to be able to pay people. Problems with metadata [means] money gets held up, and the solution to that problem is perfect data. People love to point fingers [about why metadata is faulty] and it all goes back to the historical distrust in the industry. But, actually, there are problems at every single point in the chain. There isn’t one magic solution.

It starts from the songwriters in a writing session completing a song, and not actually deciding in that moment what the split should be between the different writers. Then, at some point, the publisher registers it, and then, at another point, the label is told – and [information] gets delayed or is wrong somewhere in the chain.

There are still manual entry systems for this stuff, and multiple entry systems, so there can be typos. And then ultimately it then gets registered differently, by different people, in different territories, with slightly different names. This isn’t just about a certain database, or labels delivering better data; there are a whole series of problems that need fixing. So perfect data please!

These issues aside, when you look at the entire music publishing ecosystem, do you feel positive about its future?

Billie Eilish and Finneas on stage at the Apple Music Awards in 2019

I really do. I actually think it’s an amazing time to be in this part of the business.

For one thing, there is more engagement by songwriters [in industry issues] than I’ve ever known before. The activism and engagement in the US around the MMA and the CRB, it’s been an extraordinary sort of energy.

I think that’s going to turn into extraordinary creativity, and a lot more impetus to get problems fixed. I’ve been working for over a decade now to try and keep the money flowing, and to get the money flowing when it stalls – and, of course, to generate more money for publishers and songwriters.

We have a better chance to do that today than ever before.

Allow us to ask some questions about you: What were you like when you were younger, and

how has that affected your professional journey?

I played a lot of music at school, [across] three instruments. I spent most of my life in orchestras and bands and choirs. Initially I was quite a rule follower, and then at some point I had a rebellious phase, like many people do. But I was very lucky; I would say that I grew up in environment where I don’t remember having any concept of limitations.

And I always, always hated stereotypes. As an example, until fairly recently, I pretty much refused to cook, because I knew women were expected to do so – and I refused to meet that expectation. Then I learned that it’s actually quite nice to be able to feed yourself and your friends!

I always had a pretty good work ethic, as well. I was always determined and self sufficient, and I think that has stayed with 95

me through my life and my career. I’ve always had quite a lot of drive to sort of prove myself in some way.

Do you feel you faced any undue professional barriers as a woman over the course of your career?

I’ve really never felt many barriers in the music industry. The only one [came] when I was 16, and I did work experience at Air Studios, which was in Oxford Circus back then. I really wanted to be a sound engineer; I loved music and I loved technology.

[When I arrived for work experience], they thought I was there to answer the phones and

powerful. I then told some people about what had happened, and he didn’t like that. He threatened me and basically said, ‘If you tell anyone [else] about this, I’ll make sure you never work in this business again.’

The point of me telling you that story is partly because I’ve never experienced anything like that at Apple, obviously, or in the music industry. But one reason I’m actually kind of happy you asked the question, is that even as recently as two years ago, I would never have mentioned it.

The reason I have hope for the future is because everything that’s happened in the last couple of

“I’VE WORKED WITH OLIVER [SCHUSSER] FOR OVER 13 YEARS... HE’S A GREAT COMMUNICATOR, AND HAS TAUGHT ME THE IMPORTANCE OF EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION.” become a receptionist, which I was not very happy about. But once I explained to them that actually I really wasn’t interested in that, the whole experience was actually brilliant. Other than that, I’ve had no barriers in the music industry; although I’ll say there still seem to be many fewer [senior] women on the record label side of the business than in music publishing, so that’s a little weird.

I did have a brief time, before getting involved in music, in the sports industry. [One of Segal’s great passions beyond music is tennis, where her friends to this day include three-time Wimbledon doubles champions, Bob and Mike Bryan.] While working in that business, I had a fairly significant #MeToo experience – very much along the lines of all of the movie industry stuff that’s come out recently – [involving] someone quite 96

years has made me feel a lot more empowered and brave enough to tell that story.

It’s extra important when you think who might be reading it.

I would hope other people [in the current climate] are brave enough, and have the confidence, to tell their stories too.

Hopefully by doing so, it helps stop these things happening – and it stops people leaving industries because they don’t want to deal with things like that.

I wish my story was in any way unique, but it’s not. Sadly, it’s common as muck.

Who have been your professional mentors, and what did they teach you?

There are four people I can think of. The first one was the headmistress I had at school; she was a big part of the reason I never felt like there was a glass

ceiling or any kind of limitations.

She was just an amazing, amazing woman who sadly died a few years ago.

Another one was actually in the sports world; she was the tournament director of a tennis tournament, and she taught me that it’s okay to have opinions and voice them – that you can speak your mind and still be respected and liked, even if you’re a little bit terrifying. She also taught me that the best leaders are people who don’t consider anything to be beneath them, and will roll their sleeves up and dig in when things need to be done.

And then there’s Russ Frackman – a very senior partner at the law firm I was at in LA [Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp] before coming to Apple. He litigated the Napster case, as well as Grokster and KaZaA and all that. He taught me that nothing quite compares to hard work, and that there’s always room for improvement.

The last [mentor] I would like to mention is Oliver Schusser.

I’ve worked closely with Oliver now for over 13 years, and he’s always been an amazing person to work with. He’s a great communicator, and has taught me the importance of effective communication with your team.

I’ve also learned from him that nothing compares to genuinely caring about people and not faking it. You see that when he’s meeting with labels and publishers and artists and songwriters as well as his team: he exudes passion for music, people, and doing the right thing.

What advice would you give your younger self?

If you ever feel like you’re making it up as you go along, don’t stress too much – everyone else probably is, too.

This interview first appeared on MBW in May 2019.

Andrew Gertler: ‘The best artist managers are constantly learning and constantly growing.’

Remember Vine? Probably. It only withered a couple of years ago, after all. But, pretty soon, in this accelerated culture, it will be reduced to a quiz question.

It was one of those burn bright/ fade fast deals (200m users at one point, now a holding page saying, quite chillingly, ‘We have placed Vine in an archived state’).

Yet it is unlikely to ever be completely forgotten – at least as long as Shawn Mendes is remembered. And the Canadian singer songwriter does seem set to become what the music industry likes to call ‘a career

artist’, someone who will be listened to, talked about and written about for a long time.

And when he is, somewhere in the first paragraph, it will mention Vine. Manager Andrew Gertler can live with that. Because, despite the fact that a big part of his role has been to move way, way beyond the ‘kid who got spotted on Vine’ narrative, it’s now certain that, in terms of biogs, that first para will lead into a quite different story – a long success story, judging by the current trajectory.

All three of Mendes’ albums,

including this year’s eponymous collection, have gone to No.1 in the US and Canada. At the same time, he has built a reputation as a respected and relentless live performer (over 100 arena shows are scheduled for 2019).

Talking to Gertler, it is clear that, despite the social media origin story – and the fact that his client’s rise coincided so precisely with the emergence (now dominance) of streaming and of an intertwined ‘trackbased’ culture – Mendes is quite an old-fashioned artist. He wants to be judged primarily 97

on his songwriting and his live performances. Perhaps 30-yearold Gertler’s greatest success has been to position him firmly in that lane.

As a team, they of course know how to engage modern fans around the world, and how to operate at the cutting edge of the 21st century music business, but their sights are set on a body of work, on stadiums and critical acclaim.

Old school/new rules – it’s a mash-up that’s worked well so far, parlaying a sliver of digital fame into something much more significant and sustainable than six seconds of UGC...

What’s the first music you were into?

I think really early on I was kind of following what my older

for random bands, and through that I met managers and started building up some contacts.

Then, while I was in college I started interning for a management company. From that I got an internship at Atlantic Records in college; it kind of all spiraled from there.

Meanwhile, a friend of mine from High School called me one day and said, Hey, this kid from our school is a rapper; I know you’re doing the music industry internship thing, are you interested in managing him?

I kind of jumped on the opportunity, started managing him through college, and that was my first artist, Rockie Fresh; he signed to Rick Ross at Atlantic.

And then, when I graduated college, I ended up with a job at Warner. I worked there for about

“SHAWN’S VERY MUCH A HUMAN RELATIONSHIP PERSON. NUMBER ONE FOR HIM, WAY BEYOND THE BUSINESS DEAL, IS THE QUESTION: IS THIS A GOOD PERSON?” brother was listening to. He was two years older than me and be buying things like the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I was also into a lot of the early era MTV bands that broke out in the late ‘90s. I have memories of tuning into TRL every week.

We grew up in the south suburbs of Chicago and we went to a bunch of shows at an amphitheater in Tinley Park, Illinois. After a while I realized I could work at these shows, not in a music capacity initially, but trying to sign people up for credit cards at the amphitheater. It was a really poor paying gig, but it was enough to get me into the show.

Throughout that, I started asking, Can I help at the merch table? I ended up doing that 98

two-and-a-half years. And then that’s when I found Shawn.

It sounds like you got your breaks by networking even when you didn’t know you were networking.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t like I had the intention to get into the music business; it was more I was a fan and I loved going to shows. And it somewhat just ... happened, you know?

I met more and more people that had different jobs in the music industry. I became more and more enamored with the business side, and eventually I realized that it could be a profession.

You mentioned the moment

that changed everything, which was finding Shawn; how did that happen and what were your first impressions?

I remember that I immediately knew something was different. I stumbled upon this video of his cover of A Great Big World’s Say Something. And there was just something about him that made him different to every other cover artist that I would come across online. It felt so authentic. It was shot pretty poorly, but at the same time, it was charming that it was shot that basically.

I remember seeing cover artists online that would have these crazily well-produced videos, and it wouldn’t connect. And then there was this kid who literally put a cell phone in front of him and recorded a cover and threw it up on YouTube.

I sent it to a few A&R friends of mine, asking them what they thought, and the one that came back to me immediately was Ziggy Chareton, who’s still Shawn’s A&R now at Island.

As soon as he saw it he said, We need to fly him out to New York immediately; so we did. I wasn’t managing Shawn at that time, but all of a sudden we’re taking meetings at Island and Republic and a bunch of other labels; all the time I was convincing Shawn and his parents that I should manage him.

Shawn would have been very young then, and this storm blows up around him, so were there any thoughts, from either Shawn or his family, about wanting someone older and with more experience to manage him? Because from the outside it seems like a situation that might have called for an old hand.

I’m very fortunate that they believed in me as a young person, and I think a big element of that was Shawn needing to connect with someone. And also Shawn

himself wanting someone that gets him, that understands. From my side, the approach was, I’m not going to convince you, I’m going to show you.

I wasn’t trying to get anything past them, instead I was saying to them, Anything that I don’t know, I will figure out. That was a major thing. It was kind of a ‘We’re in this together’ kind of deal; like, we’re gonna find our way through this.

Every person that Shawn has ever worked with in his career, when it came to a record label decision or the people that he writes his music with, it’s always based on a natural and instinctive, ‘How do I get along with this person?’

He’s very much a human relationship person and number one for him, way beyond the business deal, is the question, Is this a good person? I think we all connected on that level immediately.

We’ve talked about convincing Shawn, but did you also have to convince yourself you could do it – and not only do it, but take it to the big leagues?

Do you know what, it wasn’t as much about identifying something in myself as it was about having interacted with many managers at Warners, seeing what they do and thinking, I can do that; why can’t I? And that’s not out of arrogance, but more out of just being a student of what works, and always knowing that you have something to learn.

I still have so much to learn, and I think the best managers I know, they’re aware of that, they know that they’re constantly learning, constantly growing.

Also, you have to realize that there’s no absolute right or wrong in this business; there are lots of gray areas, and so your instinct and opinion is valid.

There’s no right decision as to

Shawn Mendes & Camila Cabello

what the next single is, or the right way to put an artist out there creatively; there’s no text book to look that up in.

So you started managing Shawn before you were his manager, essentially, and, in fact started the process of getting a record deal?

Exactly. I flew him to New York and I was introducing him to everyone I knew in the business, including a bunch of different record labels.

It was clear that there was going to be a deal, and it was a question of making the right choice, and allowing Shawn to make the choice. That was when he was, Okay, obviously, you’re my manager now.

Were you both in agreement on going with Island? It sounds like it was quite a competitive process.

It was – and it was not an easy decision. But at the time, it all came back to that Shawn really connected with David Massey [then president of Island US, now Arista boss at Sony], plus I had close friends there in Ziggy and Eric Wong [Island COO].

It was a really good combination of people that we knew and that we were comfortable with. And Shawn

really hitting it off with David just sealed things; it instantly felt like a family and a great team.

There was a lot of new energy at Island at the time; they had just of become Island on its own after the IDJ split. We felt that prioritizing Shawn was part of that new mood.

Deal in place, new team in place, what were your first thoughts and instincts on the best way to present and break Shawn?

From the beginning, it was always, Let’s get music out immediately – particularly Life of the Party, which had existed before the Island process. As Shawn was bubbling and buzzing online, we wanted the association to be that he’s a songwriter, and that he’s an artist, because we knew that was the case; we knew that was the truth.

The headlines, however, would say otherwise. It was ‘Vine Star’, ‘Social Media Star’, and there was a lot of doubt as to whether someone like that could break as an artist. In the end, we put Life of the Party out a month and a half after he signed to Island, so it was very, very fast. And that song exploded.

It didn’t have traditional radio success, but from the perspective of a first song just being put out there, it did 150,000 copies in 99

him being looked out for, not being put in the wrong situation, finishing his education, etc.

For the first two years, he was still in high school, so he was being home schooled and then tutored while he was touring the world. The responsibility was always there. And it fed into the team we assembled, too. David Massey had a history of working with young artists, for instance, and he was really helpful to me as a mentor. He was great at knowing when it was right to push on and when it was right to say, ‘Okay, Shawn needs a break.’

It was great to have partners who understood that.

Gertler: ‘Shawn’s creating a lane for himself.’

the first week, and he was the youngest ever artist to debut in the top 25 on the Billboard charts.

It started to feel like, Okay, this is getting real, you know?

And then we put him in the studio to finish an EP, and to continue to write and record his first album. All the time, it was always about keeping the focus on the music; it was always about building Shawn as an artist, but then also having that direct interaction with his fans and, on top of that, getting him physically in front of them, immediately touring.

His first headline tour was all 500 to 1,000 capacity rooms, and every single show sold out in a couple of minutes. The next tour, we built up to bigger theaters and amphitheaters. And then the next tour we built up to arenas. It was that slow build.

Well, no, I guess I wouldn’t say ‘slow’ build, but it was taking the correct steps.

The difference was that with some of those steps that most artists would take over the course of five, 10 years, it happened a lot quicker for us, over the course of three or four. But it was still taking those steps.

100

What was it like to be in the middle of that hurricane with Shawn, especially as a young manager with a young artist?

Yeah, it’s not easy. It’s about making a whole lot of mistakes as you go and correcting them.

So, what people see is like, Oh wow, this went so well 100% of the time. But the reality is that every single day, there is another mistake that you have to make and correct in order to get to that next step. A big thing that I’ll commend our team for is making sure that we check ourselves – you don’t want to be making too many of those mistakes in public!

So we’re humble about things; if a song isn’t good, we’re all honest with each other. And if an idea isn’t good, we’re all honest with each other.

When you look at the problems that some artists have encountered when they’ve gotten success very young, does that pile on the responsibility for you as a manager, and widen it?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the pressure was on from the beginning in that Shawn had great parents that did only the best for their son in terms of

Has the most important part of your job been converting people’s idea of Shawn from a ‘pop star’ or even a ‘social media star’, to an artist, a songwriter, a great live performer, etc?

Completely, because that was the goal. It originates from Shawn saying very early on, I’m a fan of Ed Sheeran and career-wise that’s what I want to be doing.

That means Shawn wants to build himself as an album artist who writes his own music, and that is what we have to project into the world; that’s the goal we’re setting, and we’re not going to settle for anything less.

Was there push back to that?

Because of the way in which he was discovered, because of his age, etc?

Totally. I mean, I think it took us until this year for that really to be a common understanding.

Do you think this last record has been the sort of last step on that journey, or at least a very important step on that journey?

I think it’s almost more the first step on that journey. It’s like it took us three albums to convince everyone that that’s the case. And now I view it as like, Okay, the next time around, that’s a given.

It was tough. Like when Shawn had his first hit, it’s very hard for people to understand who Shawn Mendes is just by listening to one song on the radio. So even when he’s having a huge hit like Stitches [2015], it’s a double-edged sword in that, okay, well now he’s the Stitches guy. He’s had this huge hit, how do we have another one? And how is that one significantly different enough so that people understand who Shawn Mendes is? It was about creating a lane for himself. Even with In My Blood [2018, lead single from third album], it was about having a rock song on pop radio. It was doing risky things like that, over and over, through three albums, that was able to finally cement that acceptance of, ‘Okay, wow, yeah, he is an artist.’ There was a lot to overcome there.

added that onto the album [Illuminate] after the fact, in large part is because it’s very hard to break a song on streaming if it’s been sitting on an album for months. And you also have to go and reinvent songs too. So, Zedd did this amazing remix of Lost in Japan [2018], which really helped reignite the song on streaming.

You can be an album artist, but what you can’t do, for Shawn at least, is just put an album out and go away for two years. His fans want fresh, new music. And with how fast streaming moves, you kind of have to be with that.

How important was streaming to breaking Shawn so big and so globally so quickly?

Streaming was so important. I think it’s interesting to note that the timing of Shawn’s career makes him perhaps the one artist that lined up perfectly with the trajectory of streaming.

When we put out Shawn’s first song, it was 90% iTunes, and 10% streaming. And now it’s like the absolute opposite.

When we had our first hit with Stitches, that really blew up globally and I think that was in very large part due to streaming.

“VERY EARLY ON, SHAWN SAID, ‘I’M A FAN OF ED SHEERAN, AND CAREER-WISE THAT’S WHAT I WANT TO BE DOING.’ HE WANTS TO BUILD HIMSELF AS AN ALBUM ARTIST.”

And the album side of the equation?

I think there’s a subset of career artists that will always be album artists. And I think that’s Shawn, that’s Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran, Coldplay, etc. What changes is how you have to release music.

We’ve adjusted strategies in terms of how we cater to streaming.

For instance, with one of Shawn’s biggest hits, There’s Nothing Holding Me Back [2017], we

What do you think Darcus Beese personally brings to the table?

He’s great. He has a highly creative mind and a highly energetic person. When Shawn, Darcus and I sat down for the first

they do an incredible job for every single one of those people because they’ve built amazing teams and amazing companies.

I will say that my ambition lies there, but at the moment, it also is very focused on Shawn and where his goals are set.

And if Shawn looks to Ed for a career template, is there a manager that you look to in the same vein?

There are elements of different managers that I admire for different reasons. As a young person in the music business, in our current era of the music business, I think Scooter [Braun] does a tremendous job and is someone that I’ve always admired. But at the same time, there’s someone that’s managed one career artist for 40-plus years,

time, I think Darcus and Shawn really connected on a creative level. It was funny, Darcus walked away and afterwards he was like, I’ve never been as positively exhausted from the creative energy in a meeting as that.

someone like [Bruce Springsteen manager] Jon Landau, or the managers that have built artists who have literally toured every year of their lives from age 20 to age 50; those people are equally motivating to me.

It’s clearly a huge job being Shawn’s manager. How does that dovetail with ambitions to build a management company?

My ambition has always been in doing a few things really well. So if I can have one or two amazing things going on, I would rather have that than two amazing things and 10 that I may not be able to spend enough time on.

And I also think there are different skill sets; some of the managers that I admire most have incredibly large rosters and

Final question, what would your advice be for a young manager just starting out?

I think the biggest thing is just acting on it. Go and convince someone that you should be their manager. It’s about not being afraid to go and do it, and not being afraid to fail.

You have to know that there will be a few failures along the way to every success.

This interview first appeared on MBW in December 2018.

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Ariel Rechtshaid: ‘What I’ve learned, and I’m not saying I’ve practiced it well, is you get what you demand.’

The question ‘What would you be doing if you hadn’t made it in music?’ is a common and obvious one. The answer ‘snake wrangler’ is not.

And, to be fair, in the case of Ariel Rechtshaid, it might not be entirely true.

But snakes certainly did form one slippery side of a sliding doors moment that eventually led to him being one of the most respected and requested songwriter/producers in the world today, having worked with, amongst others, Haim, Usher, Adele, Madonna, Beyoncé, Sky Ferreira and Vampire Weekend – whose recent Billboard 200 No.1

at that idea that she got me a guitar instead, basically to try and distract me from the snakes.”

It worked.

Rechtshaid started learning, playing – and, crucially, listening.

To everything. From the biggest riffers of the day, AC/DC and Guns N Roses, to singer-songwriters like Bob Dylan and Cat Stevens, to rap music, to punk and to what he recalls (accurately) as “subversive pop” from artists like The Pet Shop Boys and Madonna.

And, perhaps most of all, he listened to The Beastie Boys, who basically did all of the above.

Towards the end of his time at high school, two things

“I HAD A TEACHER WHO HAD A BUNCH OF SNAKES IN HER ROOM, AND I FELL IN LOVE WITH THEM. MY MOM WAS SO HORRIFIED, SHE GOT ME A GUITAR INSTEAD...” album, Father Of The Bride, he co-produced.

Rechtshaid was born to working class, incredibly encouraging immigrant parents in Los Angeles. He remembers: “My mom, as a lot of mothers do, really pushed music on me, basically from birth. She got me piano lessons very early; that didn’t take. Then she tried violin; that didn’t work either.

“Then, weirdly, I had a teacher who had a bunch of snakes in her room, and of course I fell in love with them and wanted one at home. My mom was so horrified

happened that set him on the path to a career as a genreagnostic musical polymath.

“I became really good friends with this guy who wanted to be a rapper [and who became, in fact, Murs]. We skated together, and at the weekend we would mess around with four-tracks and turntables and listen to who had sampled what, learning how to do that.

“Just after high school, he got a record deal with an independent hip-hop label; Nick came over to my house and we made this album together [F’real, 1997]. It 105

Vampire Weekend’s Ezra Koenig

was the blind leading the blind, but we made it.

“In the meantime, I’d been hanging out at this skateboard spot where 98% of people listened to rap music, just like I did. But I saw one guy who was wearing a punk T-shirt. We started talking, and it turned out he played bass, and he had a friend who played drums. So we decided to start jamming together. And that turned into this little band [The Hippos].

“Before long, we got a little independent record deal, while I was still in high school. I managed to graduate a year early at which point we started going on tour. I would have been about 16 or 17.”

It wasn’t, however, a rock n roll dream come true.

“It snowballed”, Rechtshaid recalls, “I didn’t know what I was doing. By the time I was 18/19, I 106

knew I wasn’t happy – and I quit.”

Part of the problem was benchmarking his efforts against his heroes – and the nagging knowledge that he wasn’t fulfilling his potential.

“I was so passionate about music, I had a crazy record collection and I had respect for records, but I had no idea how to make one. And all of a sudden I was like, Wait a minute, am I making one of these things? Am I making a record?

“But I don’t know what I’m doing, and it’s not good. I needed to stop and figure out what I was doing; put the brakes on.

Subconsciously I was telling myself, ‘You need to either get better at this or do something else.’ I had too much respect for music to carry on.”

Thankfully, the dots continued to connect, and random relationships carried on turning

up opportunities. “A friend of mine had a brother who had just graduated film school. He knew that I made music, and that I’d set up a little studio in my parents’ house, because I was basically trying to figure out how to write songs, and demo them, and learn the vocabulary of recording.

“He asked me to write some music for a commercial – and I ended up getting paid, the most money I’d ever been paid in my, life by a long shot, like $40,000.

And I just kept going with it; I kept being asked to do more commercials, always different genres, composing in this style and that style. One day I’m doing something inspired by Vivaldi, the next day something inspired by hip-hop.

“And then at the same time… it’s funny, you have these little encounters that don’t seem to mean much at the time, but then they become significant. So, when I’d been touring with the band, we were sitting round having a conversation with this other band, and I had so much to say about music and recording; I hate the way this sounds, I don’t know why people do this, etc. And they were like, ‘Wow, you’re so opinionated.’

And I guess I was; I am!

“A couple of years later, this guy called me and said, ‘I’m not in that band any more, but I’ve started managing another band, and I remember you having a lot of opinions about songs and about recording; could you help them?’ I was like, sure.

“We started exchanging demos and I was making suggestions. I mean I didn’t go to engineering school, so everything’s coming from a song perspective – the songs and the aesthetic, general mood board stuff; a very nontechnical approach.

“At the time, the one or two producers I’d met were sort of like technicians. They’d spend days trying to get a kick-drum sound

that’s as modern and robust as possible, but they weren’t really concerned with the song, [with questions like], ‘Are the lyrics good enough? Is the bridge good enough?’ Whereas they were literally the only things I cared about.”

The little band’s little record came out on a little label – to little fanfare. But then they got signed to Fearless Records and made a bigger, shinier record, without Rechtshaid.

“There was one song we had worked on, sitting there with acoustic guitars... I remember turning the record in to the label, and they thought that track in particular was pretty unprofessional, they said it sounded like a demo. I put it down as a bit of a fail.

“And then it became a fan favourite, maybe a local radio station started playing it or something, and the label got the idea, Why don’t we just slip this song onto the second album, even though the album’s already been released, just do another pressing and try to work this song, because nothing else is really catching fire at this point.”

The band was The Plain White T’s and the song was Hey There Delilah, a number one in 2007 and an enduring alt-rock anthem to this day.

Rechtshaid says: “It really blew up. Suddenly I’m getting calls to write with and produce any and all kind of acoustic guitar artists.

“I started getting approached by labels and managers, but I sort of walked away from it. I wanted to write songs to my own vision, and get close to music that represented me a little better.

And that got me closer to other artists who also represented what I thought and felt about music.

I got close with an artist named Cass McCombs, who I think is a completely brilliant songwriter.

“That was also the time I met Charli XCX and started writing

with her. It clicked and the label [Atlantic] commissioned me to do more with her.”

Kobalt-signed Rechtshaid wrote more than half the tracks on Charli XCX’s debut album, True Romance, which emerged in 2013. That same year, he coproduced Vampire Weekend’s third record, Modern Vampires of the City. “[Vampire Weekend is] very self-contained, they write their own songs. But I think they were having a bit of trouble on their third record, trying to find inspiration, trying to find a way to break through,” he says.

“They asked me if they could come to LA and work in my studio and would I be interested in helping in any way. I was, like, sure. They had a lot of stuff they’d written but couldn’t quite finish, and suddenly we were working

Major Lazer was. So he got called in to go and work with Usher and he asked me if I’d like to go with him.

“So suddenly I’m in a room with Usher, who I’d listened to in high school, and who I had a huge amount of respect and admiration for, but, again, did not feel like my world at all. But we wrote Climax [2012] together and it worked.”

This was an instance where Rechtshaid was commissioned and credited specifically as a songwriter – but there have clearly been occasions, when he is on production duties, where the lines are blurred and the definition of what’s been contributed is debatable.

He says: “All of these rules are very silly and antiquated, and I could go on forever about

“SOMETIMES [AS A PRODUCER/SONGWRITER IN THE INDUSTRY] YOU’RE GIVEN THINGS, BUT MOST OF THE TIME THE PERSON WITH THE MOST BRAVADO GETS THINGS.” together. So it was writing, but it was from a different place again, it was about helping them finish songs.”

Rechtshaid was also working and writing with Diplo, a relationship that veered into different genres and led to working with some very big names.

“I met Diplo before people really knew who he was. I mean people knew who he was, he’d worked on MIA’s stuff, but it was still more underground weirdo stuff.

“He was a DJ/producer guy, and I was more of a writer/ producer guy. So we worked really well together, there was that yin and yang.

“He was getting a lot of attention, because people were really into how cutting edge

how unfortunate it is that if you sample a drum break from some artist’s record, the artist who didn’t write that drum part is getting credits and royalties, whereas the drummer who came up with it is getting nothing.

“I mean it’s all insane. Basically, what I’ve learned, and I’m not saying I’ve practiced it very well, because I’m quite fine with how I’ve done so far, but essentially, it is what you say it is; you get what you demand.

“Sometimes you’re given things, but most of the time the person with the most bravado gets things. It’s also different when you bounce between genres like I do; the work doesn’t really change, but the way it’s perceived and credited does.”

Rechtshaid’s work with Usher, 107

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perhaps not entirely predictably, sparked into life one of the key relationships of his creative life to date. He explains: “Haim were big fans of the Usher record, and they also really liked the Cass McCoombs record – and they were intrigued that there was the same guy on both records.

“I was like, Yeah, I know, it’s weird, but it makes sense to me, because this is exactly my shit, I was inspired by music that melded punk and reggae and hip-hop. I always had a foot in all these different worlds. Why wouldn’t you want to know about, listen to and be involved with everything?”

Rechtshaid went on to cowrite two tracks on Haim’s debut album, Days Are Gone [2013, No. 6 in the US, No. 1 in the UK] and every track on the follow-up, Something To Tell You [2017, No. 7 in the US, No. 2 in the UK].

It was an example, he believes, of working with artists and writers who share not just a passion for music, but a curiosity about it, a need to dig deeper and look further.

“It’s funny, I remember working with Madonna and being in the room with certain people who didn’t even know her catalog [Rechtshaid co-wrote three tracks on 2015’s Rebel Heart, including Bitch I’m Madonna]. That’s so crazy, right? To be in a room with this woman, who is such a legend, and you’re responsible for working on the legacy, and you don’t even know the catalog! This is not an obscure artist! But even if it was, you should still know what you’re doing.

“I don’t know, I’m not saying doing what I did is necessary, it just puts me in a position where I don’t feel completely confused and anxious about where I am. Because there is a thread, despite the fact that it’s all over the place: from singer-songwriter troubadour dudes, to major R&B artists, to big indie bands, to pop

Haim

icons, to whatever.”

Apart from being the right thing to do, Rechtshaid believes that exploring every genre, every possible collaboration and every project is also just the smart thing to do – because, well, because you never know.

“The first record I ever did with Dev Hynes, which was the first Blood Orange record, nobody cared about it. Well, pretty much no one, but someone who did care about it was Solange, and suddenly we met Solange and worked together on her music, and Dev and I then had a very fruitful collaboration period working with Sky Ferreria [Rechtshaid co-wrote Ferreria’s 2013 album, Night Time, My Time].”

Rechtshaid also believes in the power of collaborations to surprise, and to add up to more than the sum of their parts.

“You know when you hear a record that you’ve never heard before, and it inspires you, and you’re like, Oh my God, what is this? Well it’s hard to get that

if you’re creating it, because it’s in your head, it’s not going to surprise you. You’re designing it and it’s pre-meditated on some level.

“But working with other people, there might be something you write, you don’t especially like, or you don’t really know what it is, and so you tuck it away, and then there’s someone else in a room and they say, ‘Wait, I love that, let’s do something with it.’ And you’re forced to see it through. And in the best cases, you’re suddenly, like, ‘Where did that come from?

That’s not something I would do on my own.’ I love that.

“In the best cases 1+1=4. You reach a level together that neither of you could have even imagined on your own.

“Sometimes it’s not great.

Sometimes, 1+1=0.5 and you think, ‘God, this would have been better if I’d done it on my own.’ But most times it’s really fun and it’s really interesting.”

This interview first appeared on MBW in May 2019.

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Katie Vinten: ‘The songwriters we should be fighting for are the people who barely make a living.’

Katie Vinten is clearly not someone who does things by halves. After co-founding Facet Records and Facet Publishing alongside Justin Tranter in 2018, she’s recently added yet another string to her bow with the arrival of Black Diamond Artist Management.

This entrepreneurial leg of Vinten’s career follows a successful 10-plus years in publishing at EMI and Warner Chappell, during which time she signed some of the most successful pop writers and artists of today including Tranter, as well as Julia Michaels, Hailee Steinfeld, Kygo and Christina Aguilera.

Vinten’s new trio of companies will allow her to back talent from multiple angles, leaning on Tranter as creative support where appropriate.

“When I was solely a music publisher, one of my frustrations was that the capacity of a publisher is limited,” she explains.

“If a seat is already filled and the contract is signed, there is nothing you can do about it. I wanted the ability to be impactful in the career of any creative that I have a connection with.”

She adds: “The growth of myself as an executive in general is exponential when it comes to being able to wear different hats and really push myself.”

Vinten grew up in North Carolina listening to singer/ songwriters on local radio — Natalie Merchant was the first cassette she bought — as well as her parent’s favorites, Hall & Oates and Whitney Houston.

As her tastes developed, she graduated to John Mayer, Norah Jones, and Lauryn Hill, but also spent a period being fully enamored with pop, skating around the local ice rink to the biggest boy bands of the ‘90s like Hanson, Backstreet Boys and NSYNC. At school, she says, she was a

hard-worker with solid grades and a lackluster social life thanks in part to a shy demeanor and studiousness.

A short story written about a musician at the end of his life who’d never shaken the ‘tortured artist’ mentality gave Vinten a foot in the door at the NYU Tisch School of Arts, which led to internships at MTV, Verve and Sony.

As the music industry started to migrate from New York to LA, Vinten moved with it upon graduating, finding a temp gig at UMPG before joining EMI as an assistant.

There, she made an impression on then-CEO Jon Platt after

Facet Records (launched in partnership with Warner Records) serves as home to Diana Gordon and Shawn Wasabi, while Facet Publishing represents writers Kennedi Lykken (Ariana Grande, Dua Lipa, Chainsmokers, Jonas Brothers), Jason Gil (Katy Perry), Wes Period (Facet/Interscope Records), Shea Diamond (Facet/ Asylum), Brandon Colbein (ZAYN, Hayley Kiyoko), and The Roommates (Aaron Carpenter).

Here, we chat to Vinten about lessons learned across her career to date and championing creative talent in a challenging industry...

You say you were studious at school because you had a drive

“I’M NOT TOO PROUD TO ASK FOR HELP. I’M NOT TOO GREAT TO DO MENIAL TASKS. I’LL NEVER ALLOW MYSELF TO BE DISRESPECTED, BUT I ALWAYS HAVE SOMETHING TO LEARN.” bringing Mozella (who she’d fallen in love with at a gig in New York) into an A&R meeting and signing her to the company shortly after.

Platt needed a new assistant and Vinten stepped up to the plate, later moving with him to Warner Chappell as Director of A&R for Pop. By the time she stepped into a consultancy role at Warner Chappell, in order to launch Facet Publishing in partnership with the major in 2018, Vinten was coHead of A&R. Today, she still consults for Warner Records, acting as Rita Ora’s Stateside A&R, while she continues to look after Michaels, Kygo, K.Flay, and Aguilera for Warner Chappell.

Her initial roster at Black Diamond includes Tranter, Zach Skelton (Jonas Brothers, Lil Nas X), Boy Matthews (Gallant, Hayden James) and Caroline Pennell.

to find a better life. What was it about your childhood that instilled that motivation, and what did better look like?

Better looked like the ability to feel joy in what you are committing so much of your life to, which for me happens to be work and family. I’ve always wanted a family and wanted to be successful with creative things, and music was what found me.

In order to have a stable environment and build a family that feels like they have a foundation that’s not going to be pulled out from under them at any time, I needed to be great at what I did, not just good. I wanted to show my future kids that anything is possible and you don’t need to be born into wealth or connections, you just have to fulfil your potential and know that there is no ceiling.

My dad passed away a couple of months ago and he was an 111

I feel that way, I can’t grow and subscribe to that way of thinking.

I promised myself that even when dealing with someone in a much more powerful position, I was going to stand my ground and have an opinion because... what else am I here for?

I want to move culture, music and my life forward, and the betterment of the people I work with forward, and that means I can’t be afraid.

Justin Tranter

extremely smart man when it came to book-smart, but he suffered a lot with his mental issues, untreated. When he was good he was good and when he was bad it was pretty bad.

What made me so sad at the end of his life was that he had so much unfulfilled potential and that the cycle hadn’t been broken — how his mum had treated him, he hadn’t broken that cycle with us. He made a decision, whether it was conscious or unconscious, to give in to his own insecurities and not seek the help he needed.

That was heartbreaking for me because I felt like that is an example of someone who has all of these abilities, who is so intelligent in many ways, and was lacking that emotional intelligence to really fulfill their full potential. How much that held him back… the need to be right all the time, the need to not [ask for] help from anyone.

Seeing that made me be like, I’m not too proud to ask for help or ask questions, I’m not too great to do menial tasks.

I’ll never allow myself to be disrespected, but I will put my best foot forward and I always have something to learn.

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What lessons did you learn during your early career that have had an impact on the way you work and run your company today?

For no-one in the building who shows up every day to ever be treated as insignificant. Everyone is trying to do their best and until you can give reason that proves something different or that this is not something that someone’s heart is in, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I saw how people can treat people beneath them, like everyone is replaceable, and I really don’t feel that way. Right now, in my company, I am nothing without the people that work beside me. I want them to feel part of the vision I have for building this company, that it’s our vision and that they are appreciated.

Also, every now and then I saw women in the industry who I mostly thought were assistants at that time [plus] a few executives.

I could see the fear that a lot of them, and any marginalized person in rooms of power, have to voice their opinions.

That was so off-putting to me; I can’t work in an industry where

You’ve worked very closely with Jon Platt — what was that experience like and what did you learn from him?

I learned a lot. He made his name in more of the urban music community, and that was not a community that I had come from musically, so it was an amazing challenge to get to know people in that world and establish relationships which I never would have established had I just worked under somebody who came up in pop music.

Jon’s one of the hardest workers in the music industry and he expected that of the people that he worked for and with. He really pushed me and made me more resilient than even I thought I could be.

Even though he was tough, he saw the potential in me, he opened doors and encouraged me to walk through them. There was no hand holding or micromanaging. He was like, as long as my stuff is on point, then all this other stuff, the creative and relationships and bringing things in to sign, you’ve got my support.

That meant the world to me because all I’ve ever wanted was an opportunity, to succeed or to fail. He gave me that.

What’s your approach to A&R and working with artists today?

Now I’m a mother and have a three and a one-year-old, my approach is that everybody who I work with, whether it’s

a songwriter, producer, or a recording artist, is somebody’s son or daughter. I approach my care for them and their career like I would want someone to care for my kid’s career or passion; with a sense of accountability and honesty in doing what [I] said [I was] going to do.

I don’t want anyone to be at the end of their life that I’ve worked with who, as I’ve seen with my father and other people, has potential unrealized. My main purpose is to get every ounce of potential out of someone’s ability and help them see it for themselves – and then help other people see [it]. Then everything else falls into place.

What do you look for in new signings?

Number one is talent; number two is that they have the integrity and the drive to see those days that are tough through; number three is somebody that I want to speak to every single day.

It has to be somebody where I feel honored to be a part of their journey and they feel honored to be a part of mine. I’m way more intentionally specific now because [Facet/Black Diamond is] a company that I launched and every signing and moment matters.

You’ve played a key role In Justin Tranter’s career. You continue to champion and work very closely alongside him. What is it about him that’s special to you?

He is an unapologetic truthseeker. A lot of people go into rooms with artists and try to force that artist just to write the hit song.

Justin is a human being and approaches things from a perspective of, ‘Music shifts culture and elevates humanity, but what are you going through?

What is it that you want to say, what is it you’ve been afraid to say or what is it that you have

Tranter, Aaron Bay-Schuck and Katie Vinten

said that we can say better, and how can I help elevate that?’ As opposed to saying, ‘Well I’m a hit songwriter so just listen to me and this is the song you should put out’, or, ‘My chorus is better.’

Justin always starts a session by showing the artist he actually cares and he’s honored that he’s there. There is a respect from moment one. I don’t think a ton of songwriters understand the importance of that – he does and it’s the through-line in everything he does.

There is no formula for Justin other than wanting to try to get to the truth, even if that truth is pure joy. Cake By The Ocean is just the most fun [song], the minute you hear it you just want to dance and that is the purpose.

So it doesn’t have to be heavy [hearted], but at the same time if that’s what a session calls for, he will elevate that as well.

What’s the most challenging thing about publishing today?

Now that I’m [in amongst] more of the joint ventures, the smaller publishing companies, but with the backing of the amazing Warner Chappell, I would say that there are a lot of high dollar

figure advances given out with the promise of providing creative services, and this feeling that [a big advance] means somebody believes in [talent] more when I honestly don’t think that’s true.

The fact that there are so many large checks flying around without context, without relationship, makes it very confusing for songwriters who are trying to find their way and make a living, and deciding between building a bigger pie with somebody who is actually going to work them as a songwriter versus a [large upfront check].

The dollar amounts have become so inflated that it can give publishers a bad name. It’s hard for the person who is giving a great deal and is also going to give creative services, who may get counted out [versus someone who can pay more upfront] when a great publisher can be one of the most influential pieces of a creative career. That happy medium that will be found eventually, but right now everything is very inflated.

Spotify has come under fire for its treatment of songwriters after opposing the CRB rate hike.

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Diana Gordon

What’s your opinion on that move and whole debate over the fair treatment of songwriters from streaming services?

Songwriters are the lifeblood of this industry and streaming platforms are absolutely amazing to discover new music and give artists and songwriters an opportunity to have their music heard. There is a balance that has yet to be achieved and I think it’s more of a systemic cultural problem – one that has been rooted in the history of [songwriting] being more of a female-driven art form.

In many ways, as we know, marginalized people in general have had to work twice as hard to get the same amount as nonmarginalized people.

So I think [this situation] is much less about the tech boom and digital service providers being ‘evil’, than it is something deeply rooted which culturally needs to shift.

With any conflict, being on opposite sides of the table never really works – you’ve got to get on the same side of the table and there are some amazing songwriters who are making that pledge. There has to be a 114

conversation that really gets it down to the human experience and why this matters to songwriters and why it should be understood.

At the core of it is: Let’s treat marginalized people fairly, the women and LGBTQ people who write these incredible songs, and really respect the craft on a level that it deserves.

There is a lot of re-writing of history that needs to be done in order to achieve that... we just have to push forward, get on the same side of the table and have more productive conversations and less anger.

The songwriters we should really be fighting for are the people who barely make anything, the mid-tier writers who don’t have a big hit single yet.

It’s got to be less about specific [successful] writers, ‘I deserve to be paid’, and more about the fact that this community deserves to be able to make a living – and not everyone in this community is going to have the big radio hit and millions of dollars. We have to protect those that are coming up beside us, below us, however you want to say it, so this can be an actual career and not a hobby.

You were one of the signatories calling for the resignation of ex-Grammys boss Neil Portnow following his ill-fated ‘step up’ comment. How positive do you feel about equality in the music industry today?

I think it’s still pretty interesting that whether it was #metoo or these comments [from Portnow], it comes and then it totally goes.

Unlike the film industry, it just seems like it hasn’t impacted in the same way in the music industry, that people still can be pretty horrible for quite some time and get away with it. But there are a lot of good people in the industry and us good people are really using our voice more than ever – that matters.

It’s also up to us as people of influence to make way for our fellow females and marginalized people in general. We have to lift them up and recognize their talent. We cannot be afraid to say something because it may impact a relationship of someone who is providing a lot of opportunities for a writer or an executive.

Success is never an excuse for any form of abuse or poor behavior and people need to not be afraid of the repercussions [of speaking up] because life should be about more than that.

This is music and music is supposed to shape culture, so it’s ironic that the music industry tends to forget about the wrongdoings of people and just push it aside.

With that said, a lot of women, the LGBTQ community and people of color are really using their voice more than ever today.

I think the more charitable and the more giving of themselves that creatives and executives can be, the more we can diminish the darkness that has taken [root] in every industry at times, and shine the light on the good stuff.

This interview first appeared on MBW in October 2019.

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