Guide to skaven listbuilding

Welcome to the guide BEGINNER MISTAKES! I know that a lot of you are new to not only skaven, but warhammer as a whole. Some of you have likely come from other games or nerdy origins and a lot of you do the first thing they can do with just the book on hand. Make an army list (sometimes without even opening the main rule-book, from now on called the [b]BRB[/b]) While your enthusiasm is inspiring simply jumping head first into list building can lead to some common mistakes.

1) "Gold Plating" your characters As a new player (and sometimes even experienced) there is a point when buying more gear for your characters becomes unnecessary. Characters should be fitted out to preform their role and no more. any additional equipment is lost points that are now not being spent elsewhere. examples, Having a level 2 warlock with a warlock weapon, condenser, pistol, and doomrocket. while its great that he is so well geared, he now costs about 168 points. It becomes much more difficult to earn his points back. more than likely hes only ever going to cast warplightning so drop the warlock weapon and the pistol which grant only a slight bonus for an overdose in points.

2) "Gold Plating" your units much like characters some new players will attempt to gear out their units with every possible upgrade they can. normally creating a unit that is overdosed in points and sub optimal in battle. Again, the goal of units is to fulfill their one job and only the bare minimum points that can be spent to achieve this should be. examples include adding a master moulder to rat ogres with things catchers and shock prods. a master moulder is a highly unnecessary upgrade and giving him additional equipment is highly wasteful. other examples include storm vermin champions that have any gear other than what their unit has.

3) You must construct additional models New players tend to build lists without enough models, [quote]skaven are a horde army so try and make it look like one.[/quote] 3.5) You must construct more models in units New or in some cases returning prior edition players will take units minimum sized (around 20 models) This will not work in the current edition.

4) not reading the rulebook/most recent FAQ very simply, read the BRB before you go to make a list. some of the more common mistakes include not having enough core points, having to much of any other options, to many duplicate units, duplicate magic items, a poor understanding of which model can be the battle standard. and more. Of course anyone on this forum will assist you if you have questions but 9/10 times we learned the answer by flipping threw our BRB.

5: I took all the shinny ones yes, some skaven stuff looks cool, but some of it also is sub optimal. if anything it is the skaven core that wins our battles.

Basic concepts.

For those of you disheartened by the above part, don't be. here are some very simple and very easy to remember tips and tricks of early (and advanced) list building.

1) 1 model for every 10 points. it won't mater at which points size your playing, if your playing 2000 points have 200 models, 2500?

250 models. and so on. note, you do not have to have exactly 250 models in 2500 points. this is just a formula to get you close to the optimum number that you should be wielding.

1.5) 1 Slave for every 20 points.

It has long been a point of fact that slaves are one of skavens greatest tools. they provide the bodies that make Skaven a true [i]horde[/i] army. just like the one per 10 guideline above, you do not have to have 1 slave for every 20 points. But it is a general consensus that slaves are a vital part of skaven tactics and list building 2) Minimum unit sizes in general, the minimum unit size for skaven blocks (ie things that are not skirmishers or giant rants or ogres) should be 30 models. slaves should be minimum 40 (or as an alternative, 33% bigger than your opponents largest units). Steadfast is our best friend in this edition and to play competitively you have to take advantage of that.

3) Level 4 Always take a grey seer (even if naked) in games of 2000 points or more. enemy level 4s will wreck your force if you don't have proper magical defense.

4) A battle standard bearer you should have one at ALL POINTS LEVELS. a BSB is a huge boon for the skaven race as it allows us to reroll our otherwise frail leadership. even if its only a naked bsb hiding in a unit. TAKE ONE! 5) A bunker unit this is a slightly smaller unit that is placed behind the front lines to hold characters, by being behind other units you highly limit the amount of damage the unit can take so that your characters (which at best are only average compared to the other races) can continue to give out the much need BSB and leadership 7 to other units within 12". this 12" zone is going to be referred to as your[b] "Leadership Bubble" [/b]or just [b]"bubble"[/b] from this point on.

Bunkers do not have to follow the 30 minimum models rule for clanrats, or (in the off chance you use slaves) the 40 model rule. most bunkers range from 20-30 man units. they are almost always smaller than a normal unit.

Basically, the amount of models in a bunker unit is relative to how much shooting and magic you expect them to encounter. they are wounds for your very important characters. they do not need to be

uber big because you do not want them to be in combat. however, I strongly advise clanrats over slaves, sometimes a flying unit gets through, a unit snakes past. some unholy act of divine wrath causes your bunker to be stuck in combat, should a bunker that is slaves lose combat and break, all your expensive characters just died, clanrats give your characters that are not your bsb a chance to rally, or at least not flee off the board. now a bell bunker is slightly different, I recommend 40 clanrats as a staple amount for a bell unit, not only are you going to lose models to the enemies shooting and magic, but miscasts on the bell kill a lot of models, bell results add a few more, and so on and so on. plus, this gives you the ability (though rare) to charge the bell into combat when absolutely necessarily. (or perhaps once the grey sear has died) 5.5) At least 1 "combat block" for every 750 points.

A combat block is a ranked unit of infantry that is not your bunker. while simple, this rule makes sure you don't find yourself with only 3 fighting units in a 2500 point game.

6) One Hammer for each 1000 points as points go up so does the need to inflict terrible terrible damage. therefore each level of points (01000, 1001-2000, ext) dictates how many hammers will be needed to be efficient. exceeding this number may be difficult while holding true to the above rules but doing so can result in some pretty nasty lists.

A basic overlay of units and their capabilities NOTE!: this is not a list of strengths vs weaknesses. these are "general statements" which convey some of the synergies that can be used with the models in an army as a whole rather than as lone components.

As ordered in the Skaven Codex Vermin Lord 500ish points of suck, very weak, slow, and can get one shot by a cannon. in 3000 points he can be fun to play with but in anything else he is simply not worth it. He's simply too much of a risk for too little of a reward. when you do choose to bring out the beast. use him against smaller troops and keep him moving around and finding good charges, don't just run him into a bunch of infantry and expect him to end up living. subpart: End Times With the new addition of the End Times, there are now 5 different vermin Lords, These new and improved Vermin lords, while still hosting a few of the old weaknesses, make up for it by having far more diversity as well as being just a little stronger overall (one noticeable new penalty is a HUGE base size increase). Tactics remain pretty much the same overall but with the increased character point limit Vermin lords are starting to see some action.

Warlords In my personal opinion the warlord choice will be based on whether or not you gave your grey seer a bell. because as stated before, you will want to take a grey seer. Warlords can make a good general freeing up your grey seer to blow himself up. they can be geared either defensibly or for offense. And they can carry the Fellblade which can melt a steam tank in one turn. more than likely you will see them fulfill the role of general and geared for survival. subpart: Warlord Mounts Warlords have access to three mounts, A warlitter, Rat ogre bonebreaker, or a great pox rat. These mounts are great ways to increase your warlords effectiveness but run some risks, this is the order from best to worst in terms of ability and compatibility.

War-litter gives +1 armor, grants a look out sir when in infantry, and basically gives him 4 stormvermin attacks.

This is by far the best mount and in my opinion the ONLY true mount for warlords.

Rat Ogre Bonebreaker While a good option (5 S5 attacks is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention an extra wound), the ogre runs some great risks, he exposes your warlord to cannonballs and also normal shooting to some degree. a good mount for a warlord who carries the fellblade as it will help increase his already considerable damage output.

Great pox rat no... just no... you lose lookout sir, dont gain much in way of attacks (or movement) if your going to risk it without LOS than go big and take a bone breaker.

Grey Seer fill the critical level 4 wizard option. they also, unlike any other races wizards, have the ability to pick which lore to role from right before the start of each game. buy taking a grey seer you give yourself access to both the lore of plague and destruction which can be huge when you end up fighting ogres instead of high elves. They also have access to one of the best spells in the entire game (dreaded thirteenth aka the curse of the horned rat) Gear on Grey Seers should be highly for magic defense or the grey seer's survival.

Screaming Bells Screaming bells provide a few things for a few risks, the bell itself makes a unit unbreakable, gives the grey seer a larger base (and slightly longer spell range because of it) a 360 LoS for casting, gives him a 4+ ward save and a 6+ armor save, he and his unit gain MR2, and random magical benefits to the whole army. if the grey seer is the general he also gains an 18" inspiring presence instead of 12". however a bell becomes a great target for cannon shots, flying monsters and characters, and other nasties to target. Basically running a bell will more than likely dramatically change your list and as such there is a section later about this.

As a note, one of the ways to protect your sear from a possible charge is to turn the bell and it's unit sideways. this means you will be hit on the flank... but as you are unbreakable your opponent will have to dig through X amount of rats in order to actually break the unit. fantastic way to use points denial.

Assassin Effective against enemy characters if built right (blade of corruption, weeping blade, potion of strength, ext) do to the built in asf which normally means you reroll all your misses in combat. Still pricy so not the best option for shredding infantry (can buy chieftains at a 2 - 1 ratio which are almost as effective) Warlock Engineers warlocks are amazing, you will see them in every army doing something or another. typical examples of good warlock use include level 1 wizards with a condenser or dispel scroll. a warlock toy bringer (a naked warlock with a doomrocket, brass orb or death globe) or as lone 15 point redirection units (possibly even more effective than the highly prized rat darts) there is no need to give defensive gear to warlocks. they are cheep to begin with and you want to keep them that way. Warlocks can also be used to as cheep babysitters for slaves, granting the slaves leadership 8 if outside of the bubble. however this will only last outside of combat as an intelligent opponent will focus attacks on the warlock first. the doomrocket item is a must take in the competitive scene.

Chieftains each army will include at least one. your BSB. Bsbs can either be giving a magic banner (in which case they should be bunkered behind the lines for protection, or some defensive gear (in which they should still be behind in a bunker unit) Taking chieftains that are not battle standards can be used for character spam. Can be effective if combined with death Frenzy.

Plague Priests plague priests are our one true fighty character outside of the warlord. with high stats and a wizard to boot, he can dish it out to the other races heroes and in some cases lords. he should be equipped with a flail (at the very least) for offense and any manor of unit buffing trinkets (the forum favorites being the shadow magic trinket and the iron curse icon) Furnaces The furnace is similar to the bell in a few ways, it makes the unit pushing it unbreakable, gives it magic resistance 2, gives the plague priest riding it a larger casting base and a 360 LoS. (and if for some unskaveny reason you took a plague priest as your general it would give him an 18" inspiring presence) But most importantly it hits like a brick and then some. It competes with storm vermin and hellpits for best skaven hammer unit. it does however suffer greatly from the lack of a ward save against the nasty cannon balls that come its way and generally relies on smashing through units in a single turn. However a furnace supported unit can still be a very durable unit and like the bell can be turned sideways against a stronger and more powerful foe.

Clanrats the bread and butter unit, all skaven lists should have at least a single clanrat unit as a bunker if nothing else. they fight better than slaves, the have more armor than slaves, they can rally unlike slaves, they don't need a general watching them all the time, and they can bring a weapon team to the field. They also bring banners for the banner mission. subpart: weapons teams Weapons teams are debatable as a competitive unit. basically they are an investment in points that is frail and prone to miss or missfire but bring in considerable ranged firepower (mostly in the form of templates). regardless some of them can be used competitively but know that warp cannons are always a preferred option. The weapon teams are ranked from most to least competitive.

Wind Mortars able to hide behind unit for safety (prolonging their lives) and dropping templates that wound all the time on 5+ and ignore armor. in addition the only weapon team that can move and fire. also has the most forgiving misfire table out of all the skaven devices. by far the best weapons team for all occasions but if you can afford a WLC then you should spend the points and get those instead.

Warp Fire Thrower Forced to the front do to its limited range (even with the most recent faq), highly vulnerable to shooting and misfire but often the damage it inflicts is worth the cost, can also stand and shoot. the big teardrop template is difficult to miss with when on an opponents flank. Easily one of the most devastating template weapons in the game, especially against ogres.

Rattling gun A high probability to missfire and a low hit and wound count limit its use-fullness to picking off skirmishers, lone characters, and war machine hunters. can also stand and shoot. can be a good option do to it being ignored since it is not as powerful as the other teams. also good for guarding your very important warplightning cannons from flyers, and skirmishers that your blocks can't engage.

DoomFlayer tends to get shot before it makes it into combat, when it does make it into combat generates about the same attacks as the same amount of points worth in storm vermin. almost ALWAYS better to just leave it at home and invest in a doomwheel at that point.

Warp grinder Simply to risky to be competitive, there are some really cool ideas that would be great for fun lists but the warp grinder serves no real purpose in a well balanced tournament list.

Stormvermin the 3rd most optimal hammer unit unless given spell or heavy item support (in which case they easily outshine plague monks), storm vermin can also be taken as a 10 man "banner" unit that can carry the storm banner, a rather nasty piece of cloth. When used as a hammer should be given the razor standard or the banner of the under empire to try and generate more wounds. consider investing in a ruin sear or a warlock with skavenbrew in order to buff them up in killing power. Ideally one of the best ways to run SV now is with a bell unit which allows them to forget their lack of ranks (one of their biggest offsets) subpart: Stormvermin vs Plaguemonks storm vermin have low armor values for their points, however they are the only choice other than characters and rat ogres that are strength 4. they are WS4 and initiative 5 (which is pretty damn good). however the single attack is what kills them (but at the same time, they do not have frenzy and so cannot be redirected as easily). to make a proper hammer unit relies on an expenditure in skaven brew as well as forcing your seer to take ruin (so that he can get death frenzy). plague monks have a mountain of attacks, but suffer from being low strength and no armor (but they do have toughness 4.) both units are perfectly viable hammer units that both have weaknesses and strengths. only through your own experience will you figure out which one works best for you.

Slaves The bread and margarine of your army. every competitive army will MOST LIKELY include slaves.

Slaves are cheep (like REALLY cheep), can be fielded in mass, and form critical tar-pitting units. for

this reason slaves should always be fielded at around 40 models minimum. (20 man squads lose Strength in numbers to quickly and are pron to panic, which then could case a mass rout in slaves) and there purpose is to tie up key enemy formations so that you can fight the battle were you want to fight it. it allows you to play points denial which is currently our best way of winning. slaves should always have a musician for reforming. and slaves should ALWAYS be in a formation that is 5 wide and as many deep as possible. (this formation is referred to as "steadfast formation" or "Bus formation") subpart: The "Fleeing Slave" Trick an exception to the above rule is the fleeing slave trick (which can be done with any unit the does not have frenzy but is best done by slaves as they are cheep or rat darts (who are more difficult to rally)) the fleeing slave trick involves taking units of 20-30 naked slaves with musicians. parking them right in front of your opponent. and then, rather than holding, Flee as a charge reaction. slaves do not explode unless broken in combat and will rally on an 8 suggesting they are not caught. this can severely slow down a unit that has 2 slave units in a "staggered" formation (one unit slightly behind the first) parked in front of them. Warning!: this is an advanced tactic that requires more experience than most beginning players can bring to the table (use your own judgment on if you're a beginner). The "normal" steadfast formation is just as good if not better. this is simply another way to play slaves subpart: Shields and Spears Clanrats and slaves both can take these. however spears should not be taken, an extra 5-10 strength 3 attacks is not going to tip the combat in your favor, on the other hand an extra 1-2 models that dont die isnt either. the point is not so much that parry saves are better. the point is that your never going to win combat anyway so points wasted on spears could be better spent elsewhere. Slaves with shields currently holds around the 50/50 mark. as shields give them both a 6+ armor and 6+ ward it is the better option against strength 3 attacks, however against anything strength 4 and above extra bodies is the way to go. again, only through proper testing and experimenting can you decide what is best for you.

Night Runners simply to many points for what they dont do. they are more expensive than clanrats and can get ranged gear (but with no armor) They have problems because of their cost and being the same as clanrats for the most part. getting a large group a tunneling team is a fun (but very risky) way of making them competitive. however the VERY high risk reword is in my opinion TO risky to take on a regular bases. normally they should be left at home.

Giant Rats the best use for giant rats is the aptly named "rat dart" Rat darts are units of 5 rat and 1 packmaster that is used to stall deployment (so that you can see how your enemy deploys) and after wards as cheep re-directors, war machine hunters (or at least stallers) and march blockers (however futile they may be) Larger packs are not advised as they are basically in between slaves and clanrats in cost but are far worse than a clanrat and only moderately better than a slave.

Rat Swarms melt away to quickly. Rat darts are cheaper and fill the same roles that swarms do and more. The only real exception is a unit of 2 used to cover a flank as they are unbreakable and against "non" hammer units they can normally hold for a turn or two.

Gutter Runners are highly skilled at one thing in particular, snipping warmachines and other key lone targets, units of 5-9 with poison and slings, optimally you will have 2 or 3 of these in any list that does not run a storm banner. use the 2x shots on a warmachine after scouting forward in the first turn. They are one of our best choices hands down. some reasons other than their excellent warmachine hunting capabilities.

Counter charge - slip gutter runners behind enemy line in his flee path. When he flees, they'll flee over them for dangerous terrain tests. Then you can charge the fleeing unit with your gutter runners and they'll be almost always caught because ms + 2d6 is better than 2D6 alone. A lot of people don't see this coming when they declare a flee response from your hammer (like a furnace unit). Gutters in the backline are also useful for forcing units that are already fleeing to flee off of the table or out of the opposing generals leadership bubble. 5, 6 & 9 all equally good at this. 9 being most durable and likely to be able to do this but also the most expensive. (Credit goes to [color=brown]tanglewood[/color] for this idea) Killing Lone characters, Monsters, Skirmishers, finishing units, and flyers - Gutter runners are exceptional at killing off small sized (model count wise) units because of they lack of durability. nice easy points to pick up after warmachines are killed or if your opponent has none.

Rat ogres Are fairly ugly. a huge dump in points for a unit with no armor, T4 and low leadership (which is compounded with frenzy), while they do have a high strength value they suffer to much from their offsets. In addition do to games workshops incompetence they may not actually have any legal formations, so confer with your opponent before a game to make sure hes ok with however your going to run them. subpart: Skweel Gnawtooth Skweel Gnawtooth is the only way to run rat ogres competitively. the problem is the 5+ regin (which is what you want) has only a 1/3 chance, making him a sub-optimal solution at best.

Plague Monks are the non rare punch of most skaven armies, combined with the furnace these guys provide a cheep effective way for dealing with many enemies. (they struggle against chaos but so do most armies in close combat) make them a good 30-40 strong and give them the plague banner. an alternative is to give them the banner of the underempire that will do well against low toughness and low armor models. again the choice between these banners is best decided by your own determination by experimentation. I do suggest the plague banner however.

Plague Censor Bearers suck, They pack a great punch but are slow, tend to kill themselves, and cannot do anything unsupported. with a large unit they will hit, kill a lot, win combat, and then die next turn when all their first round of combat bonuses wear off. they also cost a bucket load to field. the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY to field them competitively is in small units of 5 or in large units of more than 20, small units can be used as flankers instead of a doomwheel (for slightly less points) whereas larger units can actually generate enough combat ress to win combat. in general I would leave them at home though as they are a lot of points and easy for your opponent to kill.

Warplock Jezzails while great against heavy armor and high toughness models (things our army as a whole has problems with) they cost a small fortune in points to field. for the same cost as 5 jezzails you could buy a cannon which will hit more often, do more damage, and not run away. simply put, while jezzails are good, other things are better and cheaper and also almost ALWAYS more efficient. However with the increase of monsters and monstrous cav they are becoming a more effective and more desirable choice.

Poisoned Wind Globadiers are a little offset. Globes do well against high toughness, high armor targets (such as the dreaded steam tank) they can be used in a pinch as redirectors, but they have low leadership, are prone to panic (and cause mass panic) and they are VERY short ranged (a mighty 8" but effectively 4") while I personally do think globes can be played competitively I do not think that they should be considered a bread and butter unit by any means. and should never be used by an inexperienced player. (common sense is needed when determining if you are experienced). as with jezzails, the increase of monsters and monstrous cav is making them a much more desirable option.

Hell-Pits the third and most powerful hammer. hellpits are insanely difficult to kill and are a thorn for most opponents, random movement giving them all sorts of options (and also the ability to ram your own units so that they don’t have to move ahead like other teams random movement hings) cannot be fled from, can flee (in interesting situations) stubborn 8, a waterfall of str 6 hits and attacks will decimate infantry. watch out for flaming banners, characters, fire magic, and other things with flaming. (cannon balls are a no brainier) DoomWheels a less chosen rare, the doomwheel is a monster killer and charge support specialist. with the equivalent of 3 cannon balls hitting whatever is closest the doomwheel is equipped to ZAP almost any monster in a single turn. Doomwheels can also be used to support charge units alongside clanrats or slaves, generating decent combat res through its impacts can lead to skaven winning combats which allows the doomwheel an easy overrun (3d6 inches) deep behind enemy lines. the downside is that an unsupported doomwheel will, like plague censors, most likely die or break in its second round of combat (or first if they are charged). to clarify, "less chosen" does not mean "less competitive" or even "considered less competitive" doomwheels are surprisingly powerful tools in the correct hands. that said they are far more difficult to learn to use and far more complex in strategy than a 'point and click' cannon. So while they are, imho, better than cannons in numerous ways, people simply go with the easier, simpler, and in general, more adaptable/all comer option. once again, the increase of monsters and monstrous can is making doomwheels a very good option, in fact they are almost more preferable to a hellpit as they are far cheaper.

Warp Lightning Cannons by far the most favorite of skaven rares. the cannon fills both an excellent troop mowing and monster killing role. while it is prone to misfire (like all cannons) ignoring all armor and dropping blast templates on infantry is great fun. they do have to be guarded against warmachine hunters however (unlike doomwheels) and also can be under strength for monster slaying. still, a staple in most skaven armies.

Plagueclaw Catapults While not the best of the skaven rares. PCC can be devastating against low toughness armies, especially in combination with wither. against higher toughness armies they suffer quite a bit, and the

most usefulness you see from them is the auto panic check, which in most cases is not a big deal.

Storm Fiends Obviously these guys are an "end times only" deal (as of 1/20/2015) but if your playing with them, these guys are absolutely disgusting, easily competing with the other top rare choices. Taking a single grinderfist can negate their otherwise poor durability as well as allowing them to pop up and painfully blast an enemy with a burst of weaponry or close combat pain. In order of most to least effective weapon choices...

Grinderfist: This is a must take, even though you'll only ever take 1 Rattling Cannons: What rattling guns only wish they could be, these guys unleash a bullet storm that makes the battle of wounded knee look like a nice picnic.

Doom-Flayer Gauntlets: Strength 7 is almost unheard of for skaven (and all of it exceptionally rare) and with d3 impact hits, a 4+ armor save, and combined with a grinder for that tunneling madness, these guys will melt even the heaviest armored units.

Warpfire Projectors: while not as amazing as the rattling cannon, its a warpfire thrower on a rat ogre. which basically solves the problems that made the weapon team so unwieldy Shock Gauntlets: ignoring armor entirely is nice, but you were already reducing the enemy's armor by 3 points, taking the umph out of this weapon.

Wind Launchers: these guys have a slightly stronger mortar than there smaller cousins, but it doesn't move and shoot, making it the obvious last choice out of the arsenal.

NOTE: All units in the skaven armybook are blessed in that they all can work and will work in lists. when I say something sucks its not because it actually sucks. Its because somewhere else within the same book is an even better and more efficient way to do whatever that unit is doing, and a good tournament list is very efficient

How many hammers?

As skaven we have to have at least 2 hammers (one for each flank and so that we can avoid a deathstar unit with at least one) in 2400-2500 games (smaller games you can get away with 1 because there will be no death star unit) A hammer unit is something that can hold its own, as skaven we don't have much choice. hellpits can easily hold an infantry unit. plague monks can be unbreakable and can hold a unit. Storm vermin, with support, can possibly even outfight some units (eliminating the need to be unbreakable) It will come down to good decision making but these are the three hammer units (we don't have cavalry) rat ogres can be considered a hammer but they are a very expensive hammer that is as weak as a monk unit when shot. plague censors rely to much on breaking the opponent on the first turn and, while an ok support unit, should never be considered a hammer unit (unless fielded in unit sizes of 20 or more) while the hell-pit is a no brainier, the other 2 units must be decent sizes, placing a 20 man unit of

storm vermin on the table and calling it a hammer is heresy at best. storm vermin in particular have to be built a certain way to be a hammer unit (normally a way that facilitates some high risk factors) This is why many players opt to use a plague furnace with monks, the unit is fairly easy to use and there are not many mistakes you can make while building it into your list. it also runs a far lower risk factor than stormvermin. REMEMBER!!! One big advantage stormvermin have over plague monks is that they are not frenzied. so they cannot be redirected out of the game.

Storm banners/gutter runners and you! every good skaven army should include one or the other (or in some cases both). Gutter runners can wreck warmachines and allow you to advance (or stay put) unmolested. the storm banner can be a cheaper solution for an army that doesn't roll with to many shooting weapons. either can work, but one is pretty standard. The reason for this is to shut down a gunline list (which can be fairly common especially for dwarves) or even just to shut down any shooting aspect of any army. for those who don't know what a gunline is, A gunline is basically a list that is almost entirely ranged, (normally this will be a dwarven or empire list, skaven can do one to a degree and I suspect we will soon start seeing ogre gun lines appear) and normally run many cannons, mortars, catapults, and all manor of nasty template dropping weapons.

Storm banner will change your list considerably. running it in your army (either on your BSB or a 10 man storm vermin unit) will shut down your opponents shooting, but it will also shut down yours.

This means that your army should be built to facilitate the fact that your shooting will be highly limited. you'll want to take very little shooting, you cant take gutter runners (well you can but they cant do their job properly). what little shooting you take should consist of things that don't use ballistic skill. this is one of the few cases doomwheels are better than cannons.

Gutter runners allow you to run a more canon favoring list. they snipe your opponents weapons at no detriment to your own. after they're done the best you can do is snipe and suicide (or just run and hide, gutter runners are an expensive unit and saving those points would be a good idea) gutter runner units should be 5-6 man with poison and slings, and you should take at least 2 units (maybe 3)

Rare choices, Which ones to take?

Skaven have some of the best rare choices in the game, they are all excellent units and each is individually good. however deciding on which ones to take will be based on how you play, how you want to play, and most importantly your determination through experimentation (i'm gonna keep saying that aren't I?) Hell-pits are almost a "Must take" option, the simply dish out so many strength 6 hits, they are one of the ONLY skaven units that can go about unsupported. taking one will, if nothing else, incite a fear factor where your opponent must DEAL with the hell-pit even if it itself performs poorly. the ability to potentially come back from the dead is simply overkill on an already under-costed unit.

Cannons are the next "must take" item, unlike normally cannons, ours drop templates and therefor are insanely good at dropping infantry units, against monsters that lack of steady S 10 means we suffer a little bit but for less than 100 points the cannon is a spectacular choice. HOWEVER, the cannon must be protected against warmachine hunters, a key thing to remember when including them in your list. so while a cannon may be cheep, the points spent to insure it fires may not be.

Doomwheels fall in the middle ground. A doomwheel has the same random movement advantages and disadvantages as the hellpit, has the monster killing abilities of 3 cannons combined. they cannot flee however. By taking a doomwheel your taking a bet that your opponent will field at least one monster, the doomwheels job is to kill that monster or die trying. Unlike cannons doomwheels do not have to be babysat against warmachine hunters, however they cannot win combats against ranked unit unsupported. therefor if you plan to run doomwheels instead of hellpits you will have to compensate with the saved points.

Stormfiends are the new unit from the end times book. Dishing out a slew of close combat or ranged attacks, rerolling wounds, tunneling behind the enemy, these guys have an extremely large amount of versatility in how you can run them. Just be careful and remember that while stronger than the weapon teams they immatate, they are still only T4 and have a fairly low leadership.

Competitive fluffyness and Notes about ETC/Swedish Comp ETC is the European team championship and is a comp pack that both adds restrictions (or buffs) to armies and rules in an attempt to balance the game more efficiently. Swedish comp is another system that uses a point system to achieve a similar goal (less min/maxed power armies) that sometimes falls a little short of the goal. My advice is to make sure you all well versed in each ones comp pack (and additional rules in the case of ETC) before attempting to build a list.

Fluff armies are a great and can spawn some cool ideas and some amazing games, but they are not as competitive as normal lists simply because they handicap themselves. Simply put, Fluff is fun. but it doesn't win games.

Currently the most competitive fluff armies are themed around pestilence. while these armies can be competitive they are still by no means equal to the power a normal list puts out.

Psychology in list building SEIZE THE INITIATIVE! Everything I say will tie back to this one pivotal rule.

What does that mean? it means you are forcing your opponent to react to your decisions rather than you reacting to his, it allows you to control the flow and pace of the game and with that you bring yourself ultimate victory. [quote]“Thus the expert in battle moves the enemy, and is not moved by him.� [/quote] but why? if I don't react to what my enemy is doing, that deathstar is going to run me over! Wrong. your allowing your opponent to control you, hes already won if your fighting by his rules. you need to force him to react to you and not the other way around, so instead of sitting back and praying he doesn't get a high charge roll, you barrel your slaves into within an 1" of him (preferably at an angle where he will be forced to reform afterward in order to get back into combat) and now he is forced to react to you.

Of course, control of the battlefield with a deathstar unit is a GREAT way to force reaction from your opponent.

Knowing your opponents plays a big deal as well, its worth going and reading the other armybooks and learning about each team. to take this to a further extent. you can try to know your opponents. this can be slightly more difficult in a larger group. If you know your opponents you can play to their weaknesses (overconfidence {me} aggressiveness, favoring aspects of combat over others, defensiveness so on) to a degree that means you need to know yourself as well, know your own weaknesses (and don't deny they are there) so that your opponent cannot capitalize on them.

Be aggressive!!! again, this all comes back to forcing your opponent to react to you, if your opponent is defending, he is not attacking, while warhammer is a slow enough game you cant set in the utter level of confusion you can in say a RTS game (where hitting from multiple directions with multiple forces can really really really demoralize and confuse your opponent making them go into a blind panic) you can still divide forces effectively. be confident (not overconfident like me mind you). "he who is victorious wins first and then goes to war." of course that doesn't mean be foolhardy. but control of the game is the real determination of who wins it.

Conclusion.

II'd like to think people will read this out to the very end but hey, I have low expectations. However this guide is not meant to force you to play a certain way or to curb your creativity. If you don't like what you've read here. simply don't abide by it. your list is after all, your list. In fact this guide would not even exist if it weren't for people going out and experimenting with all these various elements over the years. At the end of the day, this is a guide nothing more.

AND REMEMBER!!!: No duplicate magic items! also the way lists are created has been changed as of 8th editions release, your army may have up to 50% LORDS, up to 50% HEROES, it MUST contain a minimum of 25% CORE, it may have up to 50% SPECIAL and it may have up to 25% RARE.