The Reasons Why I Sing

THE REASONS WHY I SING

Faith, Community Singing, Activism & Philadelphia

As an addendum to 2024 world premiere performance, WE HAVE GONE AS FAR AS WE CAN TOGETHER, Donald Dumpson conducted interviews with six Philadelphia-based Black faith leaders, including clergy and musicians on the role of community singing in activism and spirituality. This project draws on some of the themes of the performance, including the legacy of Rebecca Cox Jackson (1795-1871) as one frame of reference. To learn more about the performance, visit FringeArts.com/WHG

INTERVIEWER’S NOTE

When FringeArts invited me to identify, connect with and conduct interviews for this project, it was an immediate yes. The following interviews reflect conversations with six church and civic leaders on the role of community singing in their activism and spirituality. Rev. Dr. Leslie D. Callahan, Rev. Carolyn C. Cavaness, Valerie V. Gay, Bishop Guy L. Glimp, Rev. Dr. Lorina Marshall-Blake and Pastor Glen Spaulding, thank you for answering the call. A very special thank you to Nell Bang-Jensen and Mikaela Boone. I have admired the tremendous work of FringeArts over the years. This has been a rich experience for me.

J. Donald Dumpson, Ph.D.

Diverse Arts Solutions

Biography

J. Donald Dumpson, Ph.D.

J. Donald Dumpson, Ph.D., President and CEO of Diverse Arts Solutions and Minister of the Arts at the Arch Street Presbyterian Church is the founding conductor of the Westminster Choir College Jubilee Singers, New Jersey Symphony Orchestra Community Chorus and presently the Philadelphia Heritage Chorale. He was assistant professor of choral music and director of the Center for Cultural Enrichment and Appreciation at Cheyney University. He taught music and was an administrative assistant in the School District of Philadelphia where he conducted the Philadelphia High School for Creative and Performing Arts Concert Choir.

Dr. Dumpson is creator and artistic director of A Soulful Christmas at the Kimmel Center for the Performing Arts, produced The Gospel Roots of Rock and Soul for the University of Pennsylvania’s WXPN radio station. He also collaborated on a PEW sponsored project involving the Curtis Institute of Music and Drexel University’s Department of Fine and Performing Arts.

Dr. Dumpson’s 2001 Carnegie Hall and New York Pops chorusmaster debut was conducted by Maestro Skitch Henderson performing Porgy and Bess. He created a chorus for the Marian Anderson Award Concert, featuring the Philadelphia Orchestra, Julius Rudel conducting, and Metropolitan Opera star Florence Quivar, and prepared a chorus for Porgy and Bess with the Philadelphia Orchestra conducted by Bobby McFerrin. Dumpson was chorusmaster for several Hannible Lokumbe works. Crucifixion & Resurrection: Nine Souls a Travelling is a tribute to the lives of the nine people killed at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, Can You Hear God Crying, released on Naxos ArkivMusic, A Shepherd Among Us, and God, Mississippi and a Man Called Evers. He curated and prepared three historically black university choirs from Delaware State University, Lincoln University and Morgan State University to unite in performances for the Philadelphia Orchestra’s world premiere of One Land, One River, One People conducted by Maestro Yannick Nézet-Séguin.

He appeared with jazz bassist Christian McBride in The Movement Revisited, conducted Opera Philadelphia’s development workshop of We Shall Not Be Moved, Daniel Romaine, composer and Bill T. Jones, director and was chorusmaster for Kathleen Battle’s concert, The Underground Railroad. Through the power of community singing, he served as co-musical director of Breaking the Rules: An Evening with Denyce Graves, with special guests Patti LaBelle, Chaka Khan, and Take 6.

Dr. Dumpson was the co-producer of An Evening of Stars, formally known as the Lou Rawls Parade of Stars, benefiting the United Negro College Fund (UNCF). He collaborated on broadcasts involving the late Quincy Jones, Oprah Winfrey, Stevie Wonder, Whoopi Goldberg, the late Nancy Wilson, Macy Gray, Joss Stone, Yolanda Adams, Monique, Tyler Perry, Kirk Franklin, and accompanied Denyce Graves on piano. He co-musical directed Philadelphia’s July 4th nationally televised special produced by Norman Lear with a reading of the United States Constitution by Mel Gibson and Whoopi Goldberg and a performance by Garth Brooks.

Dr. J. Donald Dumpson: Would you lead us in a word of prayer.

Reverend Dr. Leslie D. Callahan: Sure. I am happy to do so. God, we thank you for another opportunity to use our gifts and our talents for advancing the good of the world and therefore Your reign. We pray that You would bless this conversation, that you would help us to share the things that we most want to share, and that the project itself would be successful. We thank you again in Jesus’s name, Amen.

Dr. Dumpson: Before we go any further, I want you to know how much I appreciate your ministry. I’ve been watching from afar. I think even back to the Bright Hope Baptist Church days. We’ve never engaged directly, but I’m very aware of your presence in the city. Thank you for all you are doing.

Rev. Callahan: I don’t know if you remember this. You played a funeral at St. Paul’s. It’s been a long, long time ago. I do not think you were still at Bright Hope. I think you were at Arch Street by then. What I remember about it is that the singer had a track that she was supposed to sing to, and the track didn’t work. It wasn’t a standard song, but you obviously knew it. The song actually turned out far better than it would have if her track had worked. I remember being very grateful. You played the entire service. It was probably not a member of St. Paul’s if our musician wasn’t there. I remember that funeral especially your ministry helped the family get what they needed out of the worship experience. So, I think very highly of you as well.

Dr. Dumpson: That means a lot to me, and I don’t take it for granted. So, thank you so much because I would not have made the connection. Well, on with the interview. I would love to get a glimpse into the role of singing in your life, personally, professionally, however you want to present it.

Rev. Callahan: Thank you. I love to talk about singing. I think of myself as a singer, but not in any kind of soloist sort of way. I come from a family that enjoyed singing. I think one of your early questions is a question of when did I begin to sing? I couldn’t possibly remember when I began to sing. I grew up in a church and I grew up in a family of people who sang, irrespective of how they sounded, which I think is really important. Sometimes I found it frustrating, because I’ve always really enjoyed, of course, great performative singers, as most black folks do. I have a great appreciation for people who are especially good singers. But as I’ve gotten older, and particularly in pastoral ministry, I’ve come to appreciate the people who just sing.

I grew up in a church where there was never a solo. As soon as my aunts could

want you to sing. I never want to sing by myself. I see that as a part of worship leadership. From my experience, people like to hear their pastors sing, even pastors whose sound is not particularly tuneful. There’s something about the leadership of worship, at least among black Baptists and other black Protestants, we like to hear our pastors sing. I have always cared about music. I want to hear and make music. One of the easiest ways to do that is vocally.

Dr. Dumpson: How do you define community singing as compared to congregational singing? Are they one? Is one secular versus sacred?

Rev. Callahan: I have not been thinking about the differences between congregational and community singing because that’s the primary mode of communal singing that I participate in is sacred. Other than the Philadelphia football fans singing, “Fly Eagles Fly,” which is its own kind of congregational singing. It has its own kind of religious or transcendence to it that elevates the group as they sing. When I think primarily of congregational singing, I think of it as an act of worship. It’s the sort of bodily participation of worship. For me, it’s the mechanics. I often say to the church, “the beautiful thing about singing is you can’t sing, if you can’t breathe. If you don’t breathe, you can’t sing. There’s a kind of cleansing physiology to singing. Part of my exhortation is just try to sing. I guarantee you, if you sing, you’ll feel better, because I know the mechanics of it. You have to breathe to sing. Taking deep breaths, inhaling and exhaling, just physiologically, it makes you feel better. I take the building of community and congregation through singing very seriously. I know about how your breath synchs and your heartbeat synchs as you sing together communally, and you have feelings of camaraderie as you make music together, as you create sounds together.

Dr. Dumpson: You have an embodied perspective about music ministry especially as it relates to people gathering and singing.

Rev. Callahan: Yes, very much so. I have a strong predisposition to paying attention to our bodies in worship in general. I think that comes from the kind of community I grew up in. I grew up Pentecostal, where bodies are in motion during worship. People often don’t realize that there is ebb and flow in worship. There are fast and slower parts too. Even in this conversation, I’m thinking about communal prayer, which was often some sort of moaning prayer reflected through the rising and the falling of voices that were lifted together. We all prayed out loud at the same time creating a rising and a falling that was itself musical as the energy moved bodily. And I do think I am very attentive to the whole person, to the way we are whole people in worship, and the ways that our fullest participation yields a different result than just our sort of intellectual

participation, or whatever we might call spiritual. It matters when we move. It matters when we rock.

We already knew so much in our bodies that research is now explaining to us. The people who do work around trauma talk about how rocking movements actually reset us internally. I watch people rocking as if they were processing trauma all the time in worship. It is as if we were in process all along. Congregational and communal singing are healing activities. I think of the primary focus of my understanding of community is the congregation. That’s the primary communal site for me, although you’ve already heard me say, I’m a sports fan, so I see it and I feel it in the stadium too. Because I’m a pastor, I’m concerned with whole people, the connection of people with God, the connection of people with one another through the development of deep community connections. To those ends, I see singing together as very important to the building of community. Not just witnessing singing or being the audience to singing but engaging in participatory singing.

Dr. Dumpson: We know that years ago, during protest marches and civil rights activities, there was a great deal of singing. Do you see that happening today?

Rev. Callahan: I think the clarity about what the songs are is a little less precise. I still see chanting as singing. I participated in some protests that were organized interfaith protests regarding Gaza, in which we sang songs from various traditions, including the Jewish tradition. Songs around justice, sometimes songs in Hebrew, songs that were galvanizing and energizing for the group. I still see that as important. I think the question of if you’re going to walk and chant, you must sing. This is the same thing regarding how you move energy through your body. That is musical. It’s got rhythm. It’s got, I mean, it has that to it as well.

I’ve been a fan of Sweet Honey in the Rock since my teen years. I have listened to a lot of Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon, as she expressed herself as an activist, a performer and an ethnomusicologist. Many years ago, she was on a PBS special with Bill Moyers called “The Songs Are Free.” I was really moved by it. I remember seeing it some thirty odd years ago. I remembered it and found it again a couple of years ago. One of the stories she tells is the story about how they would be in mass meetings in the south during the 1960s and the sheriff would come in and stand at the back and kind of suck all the air out of the room. One could feel the sense of intimidation, and in that moment, somebody would raise a song, and through the power of song, they would take the air back. In other words, she spoke about claiming the air, and that I strive

to do. I think that’s important. I see that as something I want to happen in worship. I want us to claim the air with our singing. I want it done in a way that fosters togetherness. It is spiritual, physiological and even intellectual things that happen as you, you know I, if you sing “I Shall Not Be Moved.” You feel emboldened to be unmoved. And if you sing it with somebody else, you feel that you have the energy and the courage. In fact, you share one another’s courage. I do think it becomes infectious.

Dr. Dumpson: If you were to create a mantra or an affirmation by speaking the words, “I shall not be moved. I shall not be moved,” what is the difference? Does singing elevate the same words in some way? Or do they each have their own core value?

Rev. Callahan: I think there are a couple of things that happen. One is the repetition that happens in a mantra. You’re saying, “I shall not be. I shall not be moved.” Most mantras end up being sung because the repetition turns into a rhythm and as you continue to say it, and you want to be able to say it in a particular way. You want to say it given you want to control your breath as you’re saying it, you begin to sing. The other thing that happens, though, is that if you decide to join me, we each have our note, and that process of joining our pitch to one another is itself singing too. Like we start to sing, even if we didn’t start out trying to and then as I listen to your voice, and I think this particularly happens if people are musically attentive. You don’t have to be a great musician, but there’s a way that you begin to match tones or to create harmonious ones. You begin to want to sound together or at the very least, you start to match rhythms in some way. You fall into a rhythm with each other. I had an older cousin, and I used to babysit her kids, or I’d go play with them when I was a teenager, and in that same way, she’d be cooking, then she would start singing, and I start singing along with her.

I grew up in a traditional Pentecostal church where being involved with making music was a normal expectation. At some point we’d stop singing, and everybody would clap while the instrumentalists played. As the intensity increased, the clapping became more complex. There were polyrhythms that worked together. Creativity was used to play with the music. When I was in the seminary, we used to sit in the hallway and sing together and harmonize with one another. It was part of the creation. Perhaps that’s a distinction between community and congregation. I mean, we weren’t the same congregation, but we were the same community. Sometimes we’d have this kind of conversation, and then we’d start to say, Do you know this song, or did you sing this growing up, and somebody would sing, and if people knew it, they would join, and if they wanted to learn it, they’d say, how does that go? Or they’d say, oh, we sang

or be oblivious to it, and when we’re oblivious to it. What I think works well for me as the pastor, is a situation where I have a team that reflects with me about like, what is what worked or did not work in any given ministry context.

Dr. Dumpson: What’s kinds of singing is St. Paul’s most responsive to?

Rev. Callahan: Insofar as we are introduced to new things, how do we do that with attentiveness to what their ears like? It’s not to say that we never do anything that’s outside of that frame, but how do we do it mindfully? So just for example, Sunday before last, one of the things I like to do in Women’s History Month, I try to do hymns composed by women, so we sang “Give Me A Clean Heart,” composed by Margaret Pleasant Douroux. St. Paul’s really liked it and they sang it well. That was a Sunday when neither of the people who tend to lead the singing were present. I ended up having to lead the singing, so we pitched it for me to lead, which was a step down from where it’s written. Turns out, we also pitched it where the congregation could sing. It went really well. Another week we sang it where it was written, and the people didn’t sing. Later, the music staff and I discussed that the congregation did not sing the song the way that they had in previous weeks. He said he noticed it too. There’s a way that a song feels after you’ve been singing it in a certain key. I’m appreciative that after the service was over, we could say, I noticed this happened in the singing.

Congregational singing and participation in singing is extraordinarily important to me. I measured whether the music worked or not by whether people sang when we wanted them to sing. I always want there to be congregational participation in the singing for the reasons I’ve already described. I believe that makes the worship that’s one of the easier ways to get people to embody worship.

Dr. Dumpson: Community as performer and the community as spectator.

Rev. Callahan: Yeah, different, right?

Dr. Dumpson: And from your lens, the keys of music, the intention behind how the music is placed, even how the character of the introduction or coming out of a sermon, and how a sermon is landing for the community, can impact the pickup into singing. There’s some very rich things you’re identifying here.

Rev. Callahan: One of the things I love, we have a couple of excellent song leaders who are vocally beautiful. When they first came to the church, we had

various ways you can imbue music with different meanings. For instance,” Swing Low Sweet Chariot” can mean, I’m escaping to the north, or it could mean I’m dying. Words can mean different things. We can imbue words with meaning that can shift. This is the beautiful thing about singing together, we can sing the same words, and they do not mean the same thing. We can both mean passionately whatever it is we’re meaning, but we don’t have to mean exactly the same thing. That’s the power. That’s one of the really powerful things about music.

Dr. Dumpson: Describe the singing communities this interview and conferences, I want to make sure I’m clear for most for the most part, you were speaking about your church community at St. Paul’s. How would you like that to be identified?

Rev. Callahan: For the most part, I’m talking about St. Paul’s. I’ve been to St. Paul’s now a long time, so this is the place where I’ve gotten to play this out the most. If you’d asked me this 16 years ago, before I went to St. Paul’s, I would have said more or less the same things, because this is a place of conviction for me regarding what singing does in the life of a church. Generally, I am not one of those nostalgic people. I worry about the loss of live communal singing. Let me say two things that I think are relevant to this. I want one thing about the proliferation of plugged in music and amplified sound, and the way that militates against communal singing. If you can’t hear yourself, you don’t sing. And often, I think in lots of churches, the music and the lead singers are so loud that the people in the congregation, even if they wanted to sing, they can’t hear themselves. They don’t think they’re singing is important. As a feature of singing, if you can’t hear yourself, you tend not to want to sing. You don’t necessarily want to be heard about everybody else, either. You do want to be able to hear how your voice is. I see a lot of emphasis in black churches, which is what I know best on professionalization and virtuosity, that makes it hard for regular people to sing.

Dr. Dumpson: What do you mean by that?

Rev. Callahan: Let’s take praise and worship, the part of worship that most people expect people sing. For example, if you have a praise and worship leader who never gives you the basic melody of the song. Here’s how this song goes, if it’s all riffs or pitched out of the range of people to sing or the harmonies are too complex for people to sort of find their pitches or the person who’s accompanying is playing riffs and you cannot hear the melody. People won’t sing because they don’t know what to sing. I hear more music that sounds like that, even in the part of the service where theoretically you’re putting the

Rev. Callahan: I have an anecdotal sense that churches are trending away from congregational singing by and large. I grew up in a working-class community. My father mined coal and all of my uncles did too and we all had pianos in our home. Most of us were exposed to some form of musical training; piano lessons from Miss Starling, who lived down the street. My elementary school music teacher died last year at the age of 98. Most of us could read a hymn and play it. This is also relevant. I grew up in the same congregation that Dr. James “Jimmy” Abbington grew up. His mother was our musician when I was growing up. My sense is that its going away in the educational system and or maybe gone. Participating in the school band, orchestra, chorus or something that gave you some basic musical knowledge fed church congregations. Today, things lean toward trying to do what’s done on the radio. We’re engaging more professionalized singing, and less congregational singing. I don’t think most people are as committed to congregational singing as a feature of worship as it would have seen some years ago.

Dr. Dumpson: What would you say in closing, the demographic of this discussion? Where are the children or youth in this discussion?

Rev. Callahan: I think we are in crisis, congregationally, as it relates to youth participation in general. And I think there are lots of pieces to it, but the biggest piece is that there’s so many other draws on the attention of young families now. And literally, if you’re not doing something that kids themselves bug their parents about participating in, you’re probably not going to have kids. Parents have been wrangling their kids to the things that they think are important all week, and by the weekend, they are little energy. So the kids themselves have got to want to come. I think that’s different. When I was growing up, you went to church like you went to school. I don’t think that’s true today. That’s not even true for my congregants, who I think are generally committed to the project of moral education and raising their children in the faith, but they’re not going to wrestle them to get them to go to church.

We try to involve children in singing. I am blessed to have a daughter who likes to sing; that probably isn’t an accident. When she volunteers to support the congregational singing, you know, can I sing with you, or can I sing with our lead soloist is Lindsay. I want to sing with Lindsay. Lindsay and I are both delighted to have her sing. She’s actually a good singer. She seems like somebody who is growing up in a house where people care about singing. The thing that’s happening is that she’s getting affirmation for it. You really sound good. That’s how we get kids to do things in the black church - sing Belle. So, you know, I’m raising a singer. I want to raise a musician. She’s not cooperating as much with

Biography

Reverend, Dr. Leslie D. Callahan

Since May 2009, Leslie D. Callahan has been the pastor of the St. Paul’s Baptist Church in Philadelphia, PA. She is the fifth pastor and the first woman to lead the 135-year-old congregation. Dr. Callahan earned degrees from Harvard University, Union Theological Seminary (NY), and Princeton University. Before entering full-time pastoral ministry, she taught in the religious studies department at the University of Pennsylvania and in the church history field at New York Theological Seminary. She was ordained in 1997 at Judson Memorial Church and served congregations in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Her chief joy is being the mother of Annabelle, a sixth- grader.

Reverend Carolyn C. Cavaness

Pastor

Mother Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church

Dr. J. Donald Dumpson: Rev. Cavaness, would you lead us in a word of prayer?

Rev. Carolyn C. Cavaness: Let us look to the Lord. Our Father and our God for this day, we give you thanks. We honor and bless your holy and righteous name. Lord God, I am just grateful for this day, Lord God, and for the space You’ve created for us to share and dialogue. I thank you for Dr. J. Donald Dumpson. Lord God, I ask that you continue to endow him Lord God with Your strength and wisdom as he shares his gifts with so many. Be with us, Lord God. We thank you for your presence in Jesus’s name. Amen, Amen.

Dr. Dumpson: What role does singing play in your personal and professional life?

Rev. Cavaness: Singing is central. I come from a musically inclined and trained family. My grandmother was a classically trained pianist. Music was always around us. My dad was a preacher who was also very well known for his singing. We grew up in a home in Newark, New Jersey with a broad range of music. Our family was part of the Newark, New Jersey gospel sound scene, if you will. Singing does what sermons cannot. Professionally, being in the black church, where there is a high regard for preaching, singing is just as important. Gratefully, in each of the congregations I have been blessed to serve there has been a high priority that the music be spot on in light of how central music is to the black church experience.

Dr. Dumpson: Do you feel that community singing is active today? Do you feel that the congregation is engaged?

Rev. Cavaness: I’ve started this tradition after the benediction at the conclusion of worship to end with a song. To see the work of the Holy Spirit, to hear people say, “this reminds me of home,” or “this reminds me of my youth” or “I didn’t know that song, can we sing it again?” is a blessing. Music brings us together. We enter singing and leave singing. In many ways, the use of the hymnal continues to foster community singing. In some contexts, the use of drop-down screens with the lyrics projected allows for engagement of congregations too. The importance of congregational participation in music is paramount and affords opportunity for all to be involved.

Dr. Dumpson: What is an example of a song that you would use in worship? What is one of the favorites of your community?

Rev. Cavaness: The song, “Let God Arise and My Enemies Be Scattered,” was

new to Mother Bethel. We sang it on Transfiguration Sunday 2025. At the time of this interview, we are getting ready to enter the Lenten journey with Christ being lifted in all His glory but knowing that we’re about to enter this very dark season. I am keeping that vision of letting God arise, no matter what is beneath me, that I would let God arise and all my enemies be scattered. We just kept singing it with modulations. We kept going higher and higher. We sang the song an extra fifteen minutes. It really hit home.

Dr. Dumpson: Wow. Was it arranged by your minister of music?

Rev. Cavaness: We had a guest organist, Troy Chambers. We went for it. I started singing, let God arise and my enemies be scattered. Let God arise. The praise team and the mass choir were on their mics. We just had a good time.

Dr. Dumpson: Sounds exciting. When you think about community singing and how it manifests in your personal or your professional life, do you consider yourself a singer as well?

Rev. Cavaness: It’s funny, you ask that Dr. Dumpson, because growing up, I didn’t sing. It was very much that I was called to be a preacher. Still, I was exposed to singing. People have been baffled, given my age, that I have an appreciation for balance in music ministry. I hear things like, “Wow, how did you know that was the perfect song for that moment in worship?”. Also, I am blessed to work with the musicians in planning worship. Within the African Methodist Episcopal (A.M.E.) context it all builds towards the sermon. How can we help to move the congregation from doxology to the opening hymn, through what’s happening within the liturgical season. At my former congregation, we would have altar call. It was during the altar call hymn when I saw the shift happen. We’d move to the altar prayer, and then the sermonic selection, and boom, here’s the sermon. These things are all interconnected. We take into account the rhythm, the meter and we ask our parishioners “what do you miss?”. Knowing what they want is very helpful, too. We often have memories tied to certain songs.

Dr. Dumpson: So going back a little bit to you personally, I just heard you sing. Clearly, you are a singer, too. Do you ever want to do more singing?

Rev. Cavaness: My dad talked about how he wished that I had, which is still possible, some formal vocal training. Also, when people have asked me to sing a solo, I kind of fake it; you know, I get through it. I think people are probably like, wait, we didn’t know you could sing like that! There is sometimes an initial shock. People have been stunned. That’s Carolyn over there singing! That’s also

Dr. Dumpson: Is community singing, as used during the civil rights era, Selma, etc., utilized at Mother Bethel?

Rev. Cavaness: I think so. Being at Mother Bethel, we are expected to do music that reflects and speaks to the black experience, in all its different manifestations, exceptionally well. This is achieved by having the will, the training, the dedication, the openness to be able to seek an understanding of what these songs meant then and what they mean today. A totally different example that comes to mind is your annual concert “A Soulful Christmas.” Hearing communities of people from Philadelphia and vicinity sing in united voices at the end of Silent Night from our various denominations and zip codes is a powerful thing in a secular space. It does something to you. It is a unifying language that may not be an upfront experience, but instead slowly emerge from deep within.

Dr. Dumpson: What do you mean by the term upfront?

Rev. Cavaness: The black community has put some of these songs on the backburner. We may have a generation of musicians who have not been exposed or have said, “we ain’t doing that.” There’s groundwork around understanding the space, place, value and appreciation of community music. It fosters interconnections and at its richest is intergenerational. My family had high regard for gospel music, and we listened to classical, Motown and so forth. We had a little bit of everything going on in our home and community. It helped us to have an appreciation. We were taught that there’s something to glean from all these genres of music. James Cones, in his book, “The Spirituals and the Blues” reminds us that music is not a one-way street. It cannot be neatly squeezed into a box. We hear things differently from different places and spaces and seasons in our lives.

Dr. Dumpson: Is there a subject related question that we have not explored, that you would want us to consider?

Rev. Cavaness: I think about, how do we undergird this notion of holistic black music within the church? Something I’ve always kind of envied about some of our Pentecostal churches is the amount of musical talent within the congregation. They’re able to groom within their congregations or denominations. I do not find this to be the case on the A.M.E. side, I don’t have anybody internally that’s like that. How do we help to spark a pianist or an organist within our midst? And show that we value music ministry. We had the Central State University Concert Choir here at Mother Bethel. They happened to be in the parking lot. I invited them to come inside to tour the church and sing. To hear those voices was so inspiring. I wondered, after

Biography

Reverend Carolyn C. Cavaness

Rev. Carolyn C. Cavaness is the daughter of the late Rev. Harold Cavaness and Ms. Karen Cavaness. A fourth-generation preacher, Rev. Cavaness’ greatgrandfather, The Rev. Dr. Joseph Slade, Sr., pastored numerous churches in the Philadelphia Annual Conference and in the New Jersey Annual Conference, including the historic St. James AME Church in Newark, NJ. Her great-uncle, Rev. Walter Slade, founded Union Chapel AME Church in Newark, NJ, where Rev. Cavaness served on the Ministerial Staff. Rev. Carolyn embarked on her ministerial journey at Israel Memorial AME Church, Newark, NJ, where she answered her call to preach at the age of 14, rendered and received her license to preach at the age 15.

Rev. Cavaness is a graduate of Barnard College of Columbia University in New York City, with a major in Urban Studies with a concentration in Economics. During her time at Barnard, she served as President of the Student Government Association, Vice President of Student Government, President of the Columbia University Gospel Choir, President of Black Church at Columbia, and was involved in many other activities and boards. Also, she was Programming Coordinator for the 2003 New Student Orientation Program at Columbia University. For her contributions to the Barnard Community Carolyn received the Frank Gilbert Bryson Prize the highest leadership award of the College. She was also the recipient of the Barnard Bear Pin for her dedication and commitment to campus life.

Rev. Cavaness graduated in May 2011 from Union Theological Seminary in New York City with a Master of Divinity degree. In her second year, she was awarded the Hudnut Preaching Award. The award is conferred annually by the faculty at the end of the academic year to a student who, in their judgment, has made the best preparation for the preaching ministry.

Prior to enrolling in seminary, Rev. Cavaness was deputy finance director for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s historic campaign for President. She was employed by Barnard College as Officer to the Barnard College Annual Fund. She was also Finance Director for New York State Senator Andrea Stewart-Cousins. Carolyn was also Director of Development for George Jackson Academy in New York City.

Rev. Cavaness is fluent in Spanish after spending her junior year in high school abroad in Zaragoza, Spain.

Rev. Cavaness served for eight (8) years as New Jersey Conference YPD President of the AME Church. She was also 2001 AME Youth of the Year for the New Jersey Annual Conference.

At the age of 16, Rev. Carolyn was admitted on trial in the AME Church. She was ordained an Itinerant Deacon in the AME Church on April 17, 2010 and on April 14, 2012 an Itinerant Elder in the AME Church.

On November 9, 2024, Rev. Cavaness was appointed by Bishop Samuel Lawrence Green, Sr., the 53rd Pastor of Mother Bethel AME Church, the first woman to lead the birthplace of African Methodism, which sits on the oldest parcel of land continuously owned by African Americans in the United States purchased in 1791 by the founder of the AME Church, Bishop Richard Allen.

Prior to her historic appointment, she served for ten (10) years as the Pastor of Bethel AME Church of Ardmore, PA the first female pastor in that church’s 130 year history. During her tenure, Rev. Cavaness was blessed to serve alongside this congregation in leading the congregation to embark on various capital improvements including: upgrade and overhaul of the HVAC system, roofing and renovations of the lower level of the church. In Spring, 2018, the congregation launched the Bethel Community Garden, which in its first year harvested over 1,000 lbs of produce, which impacted local pantries, members and friends. During the COVID-19 pandemic, Bethel has been on the front line in service to the community providing food and household supplies support, tutoring, mental health support and resources for children and families and COVID-19 testing and vaccine/booster clinics. In response to the church’s critical presence during the pandemic, the congregation received a $1.5 million dollar grant from the Montgomery County Recovery Office to undergird its vaccine, farm/garden and mental health programs. Additionally, due to this support a capital improvement and upgrade plan has been launched which will include a complete renovation and upgrade of the church’s current fellowship hall/community life spaces, kitchen as well as ensuring that Bethel is accessible to persons who experience mobility challenges. In addition, Rev. Cavaness led the congregation in the purchase of a multi-family unit and commercial business unit located directly on the church’s property line. Literally saving three (3) families from being displaced due to gentrification and development.

Joining with sisters and brothers of other faith traditions, she helped to form the Lower Merion Clergy Interfaith Alliance and also served as co-convener of the Lower Merion/Narberth Food Insecurity Working Group, which has been at the cutting edge of bridging resources to children and families in need of food and social service access.

She has been blessed given her commitment to interfaith dialogue, to travel to Israel in 2017 by invitation twice to advance dialogue between the African American and Jewish communities.

In 2018, she and the Bethel, Ardmore Family were blessed with the honor and privilege to host the 202nd Session of the Philadelphia Annual Conference - the first time ever held on the Main Line and hosted by a Main Line congregation.

On January 1, 2022, Rev. Cavaness was elected the first female president of the Main Line Black Interdenominational Ministerial Alliance. On July 1, 2023, Rev. Cavaness was elected the first African American female president of the Rotary Club of Ardmore.

Valerie V. Gay

Soprano

Creative Entrepreneur CFP

Dr. J. Donald Dumpson: Would you lead us in a word of prayer?

Valerie V. Gay: Dear Lord, thank You for the gift of this moment and the opportunity to reflect on the power of music, a gift You’ve given to all of us. I’m grateful for Your grace and mercy, and for how You reveal Yourself to us as Creator: the first and greatest Artist. The music You’ve placed in the world lives in every living thing and draws us closer to You. I pray that the words I share will carry meaning and perhaps bring light or insight to someone who reads them. Thank You for my friend, Dr. Dumpson, and for this meaningful project. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

Dr. Dumpson: Thank you. Let’s jump right in. When you speak of the role of singing in your personal and professional life, for you, the experience is emerging as basically one.

Valerie V. Gay: My life is a continuum, and I don’t separate the personal from the professional. I’m the same Valerie wherever I go, and that consistency is intentional. I believe in showing up with integrity in every space, not hiding parts of myself to fit in. Some people function with multiple personas, but for me, that’s unsustainable. I’m not Valerie, the singer in one context, and Valerie, who’s not the creative in another context, it’s all merged.

Dr. Dumpson: So how do you hold the sacred and the secular, and as we think about communities singing in the church manifest community singing out for civil rights issues in today’s climate, how do the two merge? Or are they also merged.

Valerie V. Gay: I talk openly about my faith—not to proselytize, but to give context to who I am. I often say I’m a follower of Jesus Christ, rather than using the word “Christian,” because of its varied connotations. That identity shapes my ethos and guides me in every environment, whether sacred or secular. Even when I’m not using explicitly religious language, I don’t hide who I am—and I also hold space for others to show up as themselves. When I sing, no matter the setting, it’s a form of ministry. Whether I’m in a church, a concert hall, or a civil rights event, I’m offering something deeply spiritual through my voice.

Dr. Dumpson: With that expressed, as it relates to your singing, if you’re singing opera versus some rally or singing in a church, when you say they’re all one- What does that mean when they’re so very different?

Valerie V. Gay: It’s all about intention. In 2007, I articulated my life’s purpose: to use my gifts and talents to encourage, inspire, and equip others to discover

their potential, so that together we can make the world better. Those are not just words to me. That is ministry to me, that is my life. Whether I’m singing “Yes, Jesus Loves Me” or Puccini’s “O mio babbino caro,” the intention remains the same: I’m telling a story, inviting people to find themselves in it, and creating a connection. In my consultancy work, Syncopate Creative with my business partner, Steve Pappaterra, we use music to help leaders access emotion and build trust. Singing in that context is no different from singing a spiritual at a funeral, because the purpose and impact are the same. I believe I’m doing what God put me on this planet to do, regardless of the environment.

Dr. Dumpson: Where does your agency come from to be able to trust that you can merge the sacred and the secular in the ways you do?

Valerie V. Gay: Claiming my agency came with time. I spent years suppressing parts of myself to be acceptable in certain environments, and it left me unfulfilled. Eventually, I leaned into who I truly am. That shift began with embracing my full name—Valerie Virginia Rose Gay. Each name carries meaning: strength, purity, beauty, joy, and even protection. Once I accepted myself, flaws and all, my relationships transformed. I could be myself, and that gave others permission to do the same when they are with me. I remember a banking colleague, an older man no one spoke to because he seemed unapproachable. One day, we connected over opera, and a mutual love of words, and that opened a door. Over time, we developed a respectful and collegial rapport, not because I changed who I was, but because I showed up fully as myself. That taught me that authenticity is powerful.

Another pivotal moment came on December 11, 2011, performing Hannibal Lokumbe’s Can You Hear God Crying? at the Kimmel Center. I made a conscious choice to look directly at the audience, something I didn’t usually do because I was too afraid of their responses: what if they didn’t like how I sang? I decided it was more important to give the gift of the music to the 1,400 young people in the audience, and deliver the message, rather than hide behind my fear. And to my surprise, they were listening and receiving what I offered. That day, I became an artist. And from that day forward, everything changed.

Dr. Dumpson: Those are powerful and vulnerable stories. In closing, you added an additional question. How can community singing serve as a tool for emotional wellness, intergenerational healing and cultural preservation in an increasingly disconnected world?

Valerie V. Gay: I think that music transcends culture and lots of things as we explore each other’s culture, and therefore each other through our indigenous

music. If you will, our cultural music in a way that very few other ways allow. I can read someone’s memoir and get an insight into their life. But when I sing somebody else’s either lyrics or their indigenous musical patterns or rhythmic patterns it becomes us in it. In 2018 I was flown with a group of Arab, Middle Eastern musicians. So Kenan Abu afar and Hafez, last name just went right out of my head. And then two other guys that three other guys that I didn’t know, and we flew from Philadelphia, Chicago and I think, Denver, over to Iowa to perform this music that Kenan composed in Arabic. For them, it was the equivalent of a high-level gospel artist coming together to play their music, Richard Smallwood, for example because it was classical, but also Arab inspired, or Middle Eastern inspired. He’s here. Kenan is Syrian, and one was Egyptian. Somebody else was from Saudi Arabia, like all these folks, Egyptian Iraqi. No Iranians, Iraqi, Egyptian, Saudi Arabian and Syrian. These were all artists coming together and then me singing this music that I didn’t know how. I had to learn how to improvise in quarter tones. I had to learn how to improvise on all these different scales that 60 days before I had never heard of. And I had to throw myself into this culture. And we were singing. The music was written based on Sufi poets from the sixth centuries 11th century poetry at a time in North Africa where all of these, the major religions and cultures, came together as one. So you had the folks who follow Christ, you had folks who follow Islam and folks who followed Judaism coming together as poetry, as culture, and then the gospel choir were mostly middle states. Midwestern, you know, mostly white Americans, and we all came together. And it was so beautiful. I learned more about their cultures through that singing that music, hearing sleep, waking up, hearing the tunes in my head. It opened my eyes in ways that reading a book or just reading the poetry wouldn’t have done. I watched the young people as they learned this music and how gentle they were with each other and the music, and certainly I didn’t know them before, but I got to believe that them learning to this music together really did something.

I know what happens when folks who are not of African American descent come together and sing spirituals together in group songs, or when we sing work songs together, or civil rights songs, what that does to people. I watch when people come to Arch Street Presbyterian Church and watch the choir. They throw themselves in, especially the joyous musician, they’re clapping. They’re trying to figure out how to clap on the two and the four, or don’t even realize they’re not clapping on a two and a four, but just how beautiful it is, and what happens to them afterwards. I think choral singing, collective singing, is a powerful tool that is underutilized in our society to bring us together. You don’t need an instrument; you don’t need anything. You have all that you need to participate. You can even be quote-unquote, tone deaf and still participate. And that’s all we have. All we have is ourselves, and we have the great fortune

of having instruments in within us. And even when we are compromised, our voices still are ours that we can share and we can take in. And again, I just think that it’s an underutilized tool. And you know, if we can get back to that in some way, and we see it in things like when with community choirs, we see it in so many different ways. And I will say, embedded in my statement, is the underlying assumption that we are also not putting value judgments on one art form over another. We’re not saying quote-unquote that Western European classical music is the pinnacle, and quote-unquote, Delta Blues is the low, or any other kind of thing. No, if we allow the playing field to be equal and allow people to just sing and enjoy the music, then we’d heal rather than hurt. And when we are all healed and we come together, there’s no stopping us as a people, all people.

Dr. Dumpson: These interviews have been really rich.

Valerie V. Gay: That’s awesome. I noticed, of all interviewees, I’m the only one that’s not an ordained minister. I may not be ordained, but I absolutely see myself as a minister of music. I don’t need external validation to walk in that calling. Everywhere I go, whether a sanctuary or a boardroom, is my ministry. As Saint Augustine said, “Preach the gospel always, and only use words when necessary.” That’s how I live.

Biography

Valerie V. Gay

Valerie V. Gay is a classically trained soprano and genre-defying artist whose musical journey began at age three with a solo of “Yes, Jesus Loves Me” in her childhood church. From gospel roots in West Philadelphia to solo performances at Carnegie Hall and features on NPR Music, Val’s voice and artistry transcend tradition. She is a powerful soloist, composer, arranger, and ensemble leader whose work spans classical, jazz, gospel, and contemporary genres.

In 2006, Val founded Fortress Arts Academy, an innovative school providing high-quality arts education to children and adults in underserved communities. Through Fortress, she has nurtured dozens of aspiring musicians and artists, emphasizing creative excellence, personal development, and civic engagement through the arts.

Val is also co-founder of the EVER Ensemble, an eclectic collective of women musicians dedicated to performing works by Black and women composers across musical genres. She is the creator of Soul-Full Affirmations, a project that fuses original music with mindfulness practices, and her recording project Re-Purposed + Re-Positioned features original compositions that reflect her multidimensional approach to music and life.

Val has served as music director for multiple choirs and church groups, including a 50-member intergenerational gospel choir that performed citywide. She holds a Master of Music and a Professional Studies Certificate from Temple University, a Bachelor of Music from University of the Arts, and completed coursework at Peabody Conservatory of Johns Hopkins.

Whether on stage, in worship, in classrooms, or in community spaces, Val uses music to connect, uplift, and inspire.

Dr. J. Donald Dumpson: Good morning, Bishop Glimp. Would you lead us in prayer?

Bishop Guy L. Glimp: Certainly. Gracious God, we are so thankful for this day and for Your many blessings. Thank You for allowing us to gather and to talk about the gift of music You have given to the world—especially to the Black tradition. We appreciate this time to explore the ways music influences our communities and our lives. We are grateful for Dr. Dumpson’s wisdom and vision in bringing us together. Please guide our conversation and be with us now, in Jesus’s name. Amen.

Dr. Dumpson: Thank you, Bishop Glimp. Let me begin by asking: What role does singing play in your personal and professional life?

Bishop Glimp: Singing is absolutely central to my daily devotions. Each morning, when I spend time in prayer, music naturally flows into that sacred space—sometimes through a quiet melody I hum, other times through a recording that elevates my focus on God. When spoken words can’t capture the depth of my heart, a song often conveys the fullness of my worship.

I was raised listening to the hymns of my elders—my parents, grandparents, and the spiritual mothers and fathers of the church. Their singing wasn’t just about melody or lyrics; it carried profound truths shaped by their lived experiences. This background has profoundly influenced my own approach to music, both in my personal life and as a pastor. In ministry, songs—whether hymns, gospel tunes, or spirituals—unite the congregation and prepare our hearts to receive God’s Word. In short, singing is indispensable to my faith journey and to my pastoral work.

Dr. Dumpson: How would you define “community singing”?

Bishop Glimp: Community singing is about people uniting under the power of song. In the Black church—and, in fact, in any faith community—individuals from various backgrounds, generations, and life experiences converge in a single musical moment. When we raise our voices together, differences in age, socioeconomic standing, and personal history seem to fade, replaced by a greater sense of unity and shared purpose. This collective act of singing is not merely about listening or watching a performance; it is an active, sacred engagement that draws each person into the heart of the community.

In these moments of communal singing, we remember our shared stories, struggles, and triumphs. We affirm the values and beliefs that bind us, offering

each other support and strength through the power of song. It is a spiritual encounter that transcends the individual, reminding us of our common faith and our responsibility to one another. Whether the music takes the form of traditional hymns, gospel choruses, spirituals, or contemporary praise songs, the result is the same: hearts are lifted, unity is strengthened, and the bonds of community become more deeply rooted in love and shared hope.

Dr. Dumpson: You mentioned your grandparents and parents. What is your earliest memory of singing with a group? Also, who were the “other people” involved?

Bishop Glimp: My earliest memory of group singing dates back to my elementary school days, when I joined a citywide choir that performed at various venues around the community. This was the first time I witnessed how music could break down barriers and bring people together—regardless of whether they were regular churchgoers or had no church affiliation at all. It was a powerful lesson in the unifying force of music and song.

Later on, I found a similar sense of unity in the congregational singing at my church. Although it was a different context, the effect was just as meaningful. In our tradition, worship can often be spontaneous, which means everyone is welcomed onto the same level—no matter their background—when we raise our voices in praise. Through both experiences, I came to understand that music has a unique ability to transcend differences and unite people in a shared moment of spiritual connection.

Dr. Dumpson: Do you have a preference between singing solo or in a group? Also, are you a vocalist as well as a preacher and leader?

Bishop Glimp: I often call myself a “private vocalist” since I believe my voice sounds best at home when it’s echoing off the walls! Still, I do sing in public from time to time. Yet, it’s the power of group singing that has always moved me most profoundly. As a child, I stood among elders whose life journeys and testimonies I didn’t fully appreciate until I was older. They came from vastly different backgrounds—rural farmland, urban neighborhoods, poverty, and levels of success I could only imagine. But when they sang together, every distinction melted away, and you could feel an unmistakable spiritual force binding us as one people, held by a shared faith and a common hope.

Dr. Dumpson: Is there a sacred versus secular divide for you when it comes to music? For instance, some protest songs can be considered secular, yet they’re used in communal gatherings.

Bishop Glimp: Historically, the church’s mission and the pursuit of social justice have been inseparable, and music has always been at the forefront of that relationship. In the Black tradition especially, the boundaries between sacred and secular have never been clear-cut. Spirituals, hymns, gospel tunes, and even so-called “secular” songs can all deliver messages of hope, resistance, and faith that sustain us in our struggles.

An old spiritual born in the era of enslavement can be just as electrifying and empowering as a more formal anthem sung in a modern African American church. Both nurture our faith and fortify us for the journey, proving that the distinction between “sacred” and “secular” often dissolves when music speaks truth to power and carries the spirit of liberation in every note.

Dr. Dumpson: Given that music has played such a significant role in historical movements—like Selma or the March on Washington—do you feel that community singing is still as necessary today?

Bishop Glimp: Absolutely, Dr. Dumpson. Community singing remains just as vital now as it was during landmark movements like Selma or the March on Washington. Although our society has undergone significant shifts—including the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on how we gather—the need for people to join their voices in a shared physical space has not diminished. Virtual choirs, livestreams, and pre-recorded worship were creative solutions during lockdowns, but they can’t replace the transformative power of live, communal singing. In fact, our collective time apart has made many of us appreciate even more how essential this practice is for our unity and spiritual well-being. Now, our challenge is to protect the sacredness of community singing in a culture that often favors convenience and technology over genuine, in-person connection.

Dr. Dumpson: Before we conclude, are there any thoughts or topics you’d like to highlight?

Bishop Glimp: We must keep singing because it defines who we are—connecting us to our history, our struggles, and the inheritance passed down through generations. I’m reminded of Howard Thurman’s insights in “Jesus and the Disinherited”, where he describes how the oppressed draw upon inner reserves of strength by not only embracing faith but also living it out in tangible, expressive ways. Singing is a profound example of that expression. From the earliest days of enslavement—when people sang in cotton fields—to the trials of Reconstruction and Jim Crow, and on through the Civil Rights Movement, music has consistently sustained and empowered us. We continue to sing today, bearing witness to hope. As Maya Angelou so memorably wrote, “Birds don’t

Biography

Bishop Guy L. Glimp

A seasoned church leader with over 40 years of ministry, Bishop Guy L. Glimp is a preacher, theologian, and administrator whose leadership has transformed congregations and communities. Consecrated as Auxiliary Bishop in 2017 and appointed Jurisdictional Prelate of the Pennsylvania Commonwealth Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in 2018, Bishop Glimp is known for his profound biblical insight, strategic leadership, and commitment to social and spiritual empowerment. As the pastor of two historic congregations—Sanctuary Church of God in Christ and Holy Temple Church of God in Christ in Philadelphia—he has guided growth, community outreach, and ministry development while also serving in key national leadership roles, including:

• Deputy Chief of Staff, Chairman Board of Bishops

• Chief Financial Officer, COGIC Leadership Conference

• Board of Trustees, Charles Harrison Mason Theological Seminary, Atlanta, GA

• Commissioner, Insurance and Retirement Committee

• Member, Financial Services Committee

• Former Dean, National Adjutancy Corps

• Former Interim Controller, Church of God in Christ, Inc.

A scholar and financial strategist, Bishop Glimp holds a Master of Sacred Theology (STM) and a Master of Divinity (M.Div.) from the Lutheran Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, as well as credentials from the Stonier Graduate School of Banking.

Beyond the pulpit, Bishop Glimp is a passionate advocate for community development, serving with the Black Clergy of Philadelphia & Vicinity and the Religious Leaders Council of Greater Philadelphia. His ministry reflects a deep commitment to faith, leadership, and service.

Bishop Glimp is married to Lady Regina Hester Glimp, and they are the proud parents of three children: Regine (now with the Lord), Cherelle, and Jonathan.

Dr. J. Donald Dumpson: Reverend Blake, can we start with prayer?

Reverend Dr. Lorina Marshall-Blake: I wouldn’t have it any other way. Today, we come together to give all the honor, glory, and praise to our most gracious and Heavenly Father. As we discuss the ministry of music, I pray that our conversation is filled with great thoughts and inspiration. I ask for God’s guidance and encouragement for Dr. Dumpson’s project and thank Him in advance for the wonderful things He will do with us on this journey. The joy of the Lord is my strength, and we depend on Him every step of the way. In Jesus’ name, amen.”

Dr. Dumpson: Amen. Thank you so much.

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: You’re welcome.

Dr. Dumpson: I am so honored to be able to have this interview, really a conversation with you. It is such an honor to be able to sit with you and explore perspectives on music borne of the African diaspora; how it impacts communities, society, church, our individual lives. To that end, what is the role of singing in your life, professionally or personally? And I should also ask professionally, who are we talking to? You wear so many hats?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Let me introduce myself professionally. I’m Reverend Dr. Lorina Marshall-Blake, President of the Independence Blue Cross Foundation and Vice President of Community Affairs for Independence Blue Cross. On the spiritual side, I’m Reverend Lorina Marshall-Blake, Associate Minister at Vine Memorial Baptist Church.

Dr. Dumpson: And for this project, what are we allowed to use or not use?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Feel free to use all of it. For me, one aspect feeds into the other—I don’t separate them. Wherever I go, Jesus goes with me, whether I’m in the corporate world or at church. It’s just who I am!

Dr. Dumpson: Yes, it’s beautiful. What role does singing play in your personal and professional life? However you want to break that down.

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: It’s interesting, when I looked at the questions, I realized that singing is pivotal in both my personal and professional life. I’m always humming or singing—there’s always a song in my heart. This week, I’m the worship prayer leader for our 6am prayer call, and the word for me has been joy. Singing brings me joy, whether personally or professionally. Music lifts me

different communities, like ‘Go Tell It On The Mountain’ for Christians and songs for the Jewish community, along with secular tunes like Nat King Cole’s ‘Christmas Song.’ There’s nothing better than people coming together to sing and work towards a beautifully finished product.

Dr. Dumpson: When you think about community singing and ministry today, the art of hymn singing, the art of really leaning into those traditional songs in many situations, are not the same. What is your perspective on how churches are doing in community?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: I love praise and worship, but I have a special place in my heart for the old hymns. Songs like ‘Blessed Assurance,’ ‘I Will Trust In The Lord,’ and ‘Beams of Heaven’ (also known as ‘Some Day’) really resonate with me. Praise and worship is wonderful and sets the tone for service, but there’s something about traditional hymns that truly speaks to me. I know all the words, and they just have a way of touching my soul.”

Dr. Dumpson: What is your experience of community singing used to help galvanize or help empower the community, or to reinforce, to undergird the community?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Songs like ‘We Shall Overcome’ and ‘Lift Every Voice and Sing’ really move me, especially with lyrics like ‘God of our weary years, God of our silent tears.’ It reminds me that God understands everything we’re going through. I always make sure to know all three verses, and I’m often surprised that many people only know the first verse. When people notice I know all the verses, I tell them they should, too. It’s like our anthem, and we should sing it with fervor and enthusiasm.

Dr. Dumpson: When you refer to the word “our” who are you referring to?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: When I say ‘our,’ I’m thinking of the black church, but also the Urban Leagues of Philadelphia, the NAACP, and the urban coalitions that work with community organizations. I think of my neighbors, too. It’s a broad and inclusive ‘our,’ always offering opportunities to educate others and bring them into the fold.

Dr. Dumpson: Wonderful. Have you ever sung solo or led community singing as a psalmist in some way.

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Well, I have to laugh because I recently did a program saluting unsung heroes—people who aren’t well-known but have done amazing

everyone gets what they need.

Dr. Dumpson: What you are describing is so powerful. This struggle with the voice of the black church, and how music and singing use to really bring the Black community together or be one of the catalysts for bringing the community together in this age of technology and societal shifts. You know that COVID impacted gatherings. What is your lens on today?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Technology has been great for keeping us connected through Zoom worship, but there’s nothing like being together in person. I have a saying I love: ‘the present of your presence.’ Being in the presence of the Lord and each other is a gift. It’s about ‘we,’ not ‘I.’ People are slowly coming back to church, but we still have our ‘Bed-Side-Baptists’ who prefer online services. We need to find ways to engage them too.

I teach our new members class, and new members come in with such enthusiasm. Unlike the old days when we were dragged to church, people now come with specific needs and desires. One woman told me she wants to do culinary work, not just cook. Another guy was excited about ushering. They come ready to serve, and we need to be ready to support them.

I remember a lady who taught me how to play Blackjack during a lesson. I used it to explain that Christ wants us all to be winners. Whether you’re five or ninety-five, the Word of God remains the same, but we need to be creative in how we share it and help people feel fulfilled as part of the body of Christ.

Dr. Dumpson: This is so wonderful. As we get ready to wrap up, there’s one question that I had about your earliest recollection of singing. You mentioned that you were reared in a church and that church is a very important part of the arc of your life. What is your earliest memory of singing or its impact on your life? When do you remember being impacted?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Wow, my favorite song is ‘This Little Light of Mine.’ Everyone at church knows it’s my favorite. I first heard it in my early teens, and the message about not hiding your light but letting it shine really stuck with me. Even today, when I walk into a room, I want to be that light. I want to lift people’s spirits and let them know that trouble doesn’t last always and everything will be alright. I aim to be there for others as best as I can, not for my own credit, but so that God gets the glory. That’s why ‘This Little Light of Mine’ is my song.

Dr. Dumpson: As you were speaking, what came to mind for me is claim your

space. Do not make yourself small but to take up space; it’s okay to walk into a room and have space in that room. That’s really powerful. The last question, are there any subject-related questions that you would want to explore?

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: For me, this was another wonderful opportunity and privilege to be a part of something so special. You mentioned it was an honor for you, but it’s truly an honor for me as well. I’ve followed you for years, especially with Soulful Christmas, which means so much to me. I almost missed it this year, but I managed to get my tickets and be there.

What I love about Soulful Christmas is how we start in traditional dress and end in attire from Africa, connecting us to our roots. It’s a powerful reminder of the diaspora and honoring those who came before us. Their sacrifices allow me to sit on West Coulter Street or be the president of an organization at Independence Blue Cross, something I never imagined in my wildest dreams. I just wanted to share these thoughts with you.

Dr. Dumpson: This conversation has been so rich. This has been extraordinary. Thank you.

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: Let’s close with a word of prayer. Father God, we thank you for our time together. I’m grateful for the chance to talk about everything that’s happening and to share who I am, knowing that I am who I am because of you. I also want to thank you for Dr. Dumpson. I pray that you continue to bless him abundantly, beyond what he could ask or imagine, and that you guide him in his interviews, giving him the insights he needs to move forward.

We wait with eager expectation to see how you will move. Bless us as we go into this day, a day that you’ve custom designed for each of us. We ask all this in the name of Jesus. Amen.

Dr. Dumpson: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Rev. Dr. Marshall-Blake: You too. Okay? Thank you. Bye!

Biography

Reverend Dr. Lorina Marshall-Blake

Rev. Dr. Lorina Marshall-Blake is an associate minister at the Vine Memorial Baptist Church in Philadelphia under the pastorate of Rev. Ralph E. Blanks.

Rev. Blake is a graduate of Antioch University where she received her B.S. in Human Services. In addition, she received her Master of Government Administration from the University of Pennsylvania. She is presently studying at Palmer Theological Seminary where she is pursuing a Master of Divinity degree. In May 2006, Rev. Blake received an honorary doctorate of Humanities from Albright College in Reading Pa.

As an associate minister of Vine Memorial Baptist Church, Rev. Blake serves as minister of Christian Education and is especially active in the Women’s Ministry where she focuses on “Women’s Spiritual Values” and partnering with the “Holy Spirit” helps women to find balance with juggling family, career, professional aspirations and spiritual values. In this capacity and as a workshop presenter throughout the region, she brings her people-centered, highly motivated, creative and participatory approach to those issues, circumstances and opportunities that women are challenged with on a daily basis. She seeks to bring a new attitude and posture of “clothing each day and each common task with glory”.

She believes like Paul, “thought I am free and belong to man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel that I may share in its blessings”. (Corinthians 9:19, 22, 23)

Reverend Blake has three children and two grandchildren.

Pastor Glen Spaulding

Deliverance Evangelistic Church

Dr. J. Donald Dumpson: Pastor. Spaulding, thank you for agreeing to be interviewed. Would you please lead us in a word of prayer.

Pastor Spaulding: Okay. Gracious, Heavenly Father, we thank you for the opportunity to continue to work in your kingdom, to share with one another that lives might be changed by the power of God, by the Word of God, by the Ministry of music. And the longer we live, may we never forget that music is indeed a ministry, and that it must minister to the hearts, it must minister to people’s lives, so that we all might be in a better place to help one another. We thank you for the opportunity that you have given us to be instruments, instruments of praise, instruments of worship, instruments of love in times like these, that others might see the love of God in us and know beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are real and we forever will give you the praise, the glory and the honor for it. In your mighty name we pray. Amen and Amen.

Dr. Dumpson: As we begin our conversation, what role does singing play in your personal and professional life?

Pastor Spaulding: Ministerially and professionally, as the senior pastor of the Deliverance Evangelistic Church in North Philadelphia, the role of singing in my church is vital. Not only for me, but leaders that I have served under, and worked beside for many years, before becoming a pastor, have regularly led our congregations in singing worship songs. Those songs would set an atmosphere of praise for glorious worship experiences on Sunday mornings.

Dr. Dumpson: I know you as a pastor who loves the arts. Would you share about your musical background?

Pastor Spaulding: Well, my musical background started at Mother Bethel A.M.E. Church where I was born and raised, as the older folks would say. That’s where it started. As a result of that musical start as the years went on I was able to work with young people and accompany young adult choir on the piano at Mother Bethel. There was a rich legacy of music in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. It has followed me and helped develop all that is within me to be able to understand the ministry of music, even today.

Dr. Dumpson: Wow, I had no idea you were affiliated with the A.M.E. denomination in your early years in the ministry.

Pastor Spaulding: Yes, oh, my goodness. And I think about it now, in those years it, almost brings tears to my eyes when I think of the wonderful people that were there. Even now, when I go back at times for a funeral service or

to meet with others, those people are gone. That was many years ago. Now, understandably, it’s a whole new church community. I have so many memories of wonderful people.

Dr. Dumpson: Regarding memories and people, what is your recollection of congregational and community singing? Were you or the church involved in any of the civil rights’ musical experiences?

Pastor Spaulding: As I reflect on this, Mother Bethel has a wonderful history of being involved in social issues, and of course, the music that goes along with that helped to inspire African American people when so much hatred and racism was occurring. The music lifted broken spirits and encouraged people to fight on, to press on, to keep on moving forward regardless, because there would be a better day coming. Music helped with the engagement of non-violence. Don’t hurt anyone but keep on pressing forward with positive messages of hope and resilience.

Dr. Dumpson: As we look at the socio-cultural climate today in the United States of America, from your lens, has the black community come out of it, or are we back in it?

Pastor Spaulding: Dr. Dumpson, I do not know. In some ways, it feels like things are going backwards. I hope that’s not the case, but it feels that way at times. Voting rights are being taken away and things that have been settled years ago are being rescinded. And so our churches and communities are going to have to go back to those songs; music that lifts, inspires and encourages people. I fear that the younger generation, whom we have such a hard time engaging with the church now, are going to have connect with something within themselves to lift them out of the discouragement and depression they are experiencing. Collectively, elders and youth are feeling beaten down once again.

Dr. Dumpson: As it relates to communal singing, what is the landscape at Deliverance Evangelistic Church?

Pastor Spaulding: When I think of community singing, my thoughts immediately go to our faithful choir members who travel from near and far, and each individual representing very different geographical communities in the tri-state area, socio-economic levels of living and so forth. But when we gather as believers to worship in our sacred place, the church or the street, we assemble and sing to encourage, to build one another in their faith. As a pastor, the scriptures are always ever before us to give guidance as to what our purpose must be regarding the ministry of singing to “one another in psalms, hymns,

and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord”. That expressed, congregational singing is a major part of our worship service. I often think about what the church would be if we didn’t have congregational singing. I believe that two of the main reasons people come to church or find a church that they feel comfortable in comes from the preaching and the music. Or it’s the music and the preaching. Presently, I’m leaning toward it’s more about the music than it is preaching. The music brings people together from all walks of life. There’s a healing presence and inspiration in music that many people may not find in preaching or other forms of spoken words. Music breaks down barriers and can foster putting us on one accord and one accord is really where we need to be at this present time.

Dr. Dumpson: Were you trained as a musician? I remember you singing in some very talented vocal ensembles.

Pastor Spaulding: Well, I started piano lessons very early, and that gave me skills to play for the Young Adult Choir at Mother Bethel A.M.E. Church. Also, when I went to college, I minored in music. So before I went to Deliverance Evangelistic Church, I worked with the music department at Mother Bethel A.M.E. Church. When I went to Deliverance, I was more into pastoral responsibilities versus the ministry through music. At the time Deliverance had wonderful staff musicians. For instance, the late Joy Simpson was the director of the Chancel Choir, and you know very well the history of the Simpson family. Joy attended Temple University, then the Juilliard School of Music. And of course, her sister Evelyn Simpson attended Temple. She accompanied the choir. Years later, Marietta Simpson majored in music and worked with the choir, too. When these marvelous musicians came to Deliverance, I took a back seat and didn’t have to really participate in the church music ministry program.

Dr. Dumpson: How was or is the church part of change in the community? Do you feel that the church is still engaged in terms of the black community and people’s lives? The church used to be the educational center, community center and medical center. What is your experience of church today as it relates to the subject matter we’re discussing?

Pastor Spaulding: Well, along the lines of the church being socially active and engaged in the community, ministry must reach out to the community beyond the 11 o’clock Sunday morning service, and as a result, Deliverance has been able to positively impact our region educationally by partnering with different colleges to come into the inner city so that young people, after they leave high school can gain access to an education and obtain a bachelor’s degree all on the Deliverance campus. We host the Lancaster Bible College. We’ve had Harcum

College pull in people. Not only do we intend to reach people on Sunday mornings, but we also go into the community. I feel that once we reach the community, we’re able to help people get ahead in life. This is realized through employment, putting food on their tables, and providing for their families. The ministry of music and the impact that has on Sundays, positively impacts communities. Simply stated it’s not just about Sunday morning. I like to say that Deliverance is open, with meaningful activities seven days a week. We feed the homeless and we clothe the naked. Dr Ayla Stanford, who has her health center at the Deliverance Evangelistic Church, is providing a way for people who don’t have health insurance to come to the health equity center to get a health examination, and if necessary, they will refer them to hospitals for further care. All of the aforementioned is a part of the present-day black experience in the church, where we reach into the community, touching and helping one another.

Dr. Dumpson: Speaking of health, in an age of post COVID-19 technological expansion and societal shifts, how has the role of community singing changed? How do we bring our church choirs, our church community back to pre-pandemic levels? What needs to happen?

Pastor Spaulding: Well, when you hear of any good answers to that question, be sure to share them with me. The Covid-19 pandemic has significantly impacted places of worship around the world. Many people from our church died during that period. I am not referring to physical deaths only, but the pandemic brought a level of inspirational death to individuals who fell away from their places of worship. I feel like we’re all trying to work our way back to bring a level of purpose, value and inspiration, back to the church again. This is needed in our singing, in our worship, in our coming out to in-person worship. Being there, touching one another, hugging one another. This cannot be done on Zoom and live stream. We’ve got to get together where we can connect with people. Now, how is that going to be done? I think it’s going to have to be word of mouth. It’s going to have to be individuals picking up the phone and saying, Come on, listen, we miss you don’t you want to be a part of it, so it’s going to have to be a one on one with people, and then once they get there. Time and time again I’ve heard say, “This is what I’ve missed. We’ve got to get back to inperson worship. There is nothing like being in the actual in-person atmosphere of worship, singing, preaching and the inspiration that we give when we get together with one another.

Dr. Dumpson: We know the Black Church has played a crucial role in community building, social justice, and the civil rights movement. What unique role do you feel song has played throughout these movements?

Biography

Pastor Glen Spaulding

Glen Spaulding is the senior pastor of the Deliverance Evangelistic Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and has been serving as its leader since August 2002, as well as president of the Deliverance Evangelistic Association of Churches, here and abroad.

Deliverance Evangelistic Church is blessed with active ministries and departments established to address the physical and spiritual needs of the local church and the surrounding communities. Our ministries reach the homeless, through our Missions Ministry as we maintain an international presence in Ghana West Africa, India, Trinidad, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Honduras, and Nigeria.

Pastor Spaulding desires to see people succeed in North Philadelphia through ministries which are church-centered, faith based, public/private community, educational and economic development. He formed The Deliverance Community Development Corporation to extend the impact Deliverance has had in every corner of its immediate neighborhood. Be it through the recently opened supermarket in Hope Plaza, a medical center for seniors or the Health Equity Center with Dr. Ala Stanford as the leading physician.

A proponent of quality education, Pastor Spaulding has developed partnerships with local colleges and universities for students to receive degrees. Programs offered through partnerships include Harcum College, Pierce College, Alvernia University and the Lancaster Bible College.

The Bible Institute (DEBI), continues its mission for over 45 years. D.E.B.I. has served members of the body of Christ throughout the Tri-State region with its gifted faculty and dynamic curriculum, on a variety of subjects including: Exploration of the Christian Faith, Biblically Based Leadership Training, and personal development, as well as GED training.

Pastor Spaulding has labored for forty years in education, retiring as a Certified School Psychologist from the School District of Philadelphia. He holds a Master’s Degree in Education, a Master’s Degree in Psychology, and a Bachelor of Science Degree in Education, with additional studies in ministry and administration.

Pastor Spaulding’s joy of sharing the word of God has been presented through radio, television and appearances in houses of worship to people from all denominations.

Pastor Spaulding is married to the former Rhonda Dolores Riddick for thirtyplus years, and the Lord has blessed them with two adult children; a son Brian Nathaniel and daughter Lauren Elizabeth.