Discussion Radiation Transfer Concept versus thermodynamics

RTC - Radiation Transfer Concept and HTC - Heat Transport Concept Dec 1, 2024, 7:16 PM Gerald Ratzer

to Darwin Throne, John Shanahan, Douglas Lightfoot, Terigi Ciccone Hi Darwin, Thanks for the Clark paper – which I had seen before.

I can not say I read all 73 pages in detail. I scanned it.

I also agree with the “too small to measure”.

I used this expression in my Prague presentation, and it has appeared in several Lightfoot papers. We say all the GHGs (except Water Vapor) are too small to measure on a global basis individually or take all 61 together.

The heating from them is less than 0.01C. Undetectable. Unmeasurable.

Insignificant.

Google our papers for the details. Also, available on allaboutenergy.net using the search function.

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As I said in a previous email about the Nikolov & Zeller papers – I am impressed by the result that the atmospheric pressure (not the composition) and the TSI, Total Solar Insolation, at TOA ,Top of the Atmosphere, are all that is needed to calculate the surface temperature for any planet or moon with a rocky surface. I believe this to be true for our solar system and the many others as well.

This is good Physics, but how important is the finding?

Nikolov & Zeller use the abbreviation GMAT, which I think stands for Global Mean Annual (near surface) Temperature.

If I understand this correctly it is one number per year to categorize the planet in question.

The RTC/HTC discussion shows that the Heat Transport Concept has many aspects from the circulation of the atmosphere and the oceans. These are changing from hour to hour in the air and on a seasonal basis for all the environments we live in.

I would prefer to say that auto-compression of the atmosphere is just one of the processes along with evaporation, conduction, convection, buoyance, and gravity that influences our weather. 30 years or more of dynamic weather will allow for some climate averages and estimates. One number a year is not in the same category.

Terigi and I would say the N&Z GMAT provides a baseline on top of which the dynamic and random weather processes take place.

Dr. Kees le Pair also made the same point – mentioned in the latest CDG Newsletter.

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Cheers, Gerald.

From: Darwin Throne Sent: December 1, 2024 5:28 PM To: Gerald Ratzer Subject: RTC

Hi Gerald, I recommend that you read Clark's paper Nobel Prize for Climate Model Errors which was recommended by one of the Clintel participants if you haven't already done so. His conclusions reflect my views for whatever they're worth. I've attached his paper in case you don't have it.

The Radiation Theory of climate change is based on a false model that has been propagated since the early 60s starting with the Manabe work. He raises this question in his conclusion: At present the average annual increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration is near 2.4 ppm per year.

This produces an increase in the downward LWIR flux from the lower troposphere to the surface approximately 0.034 W m-2 per year. How does this change the surface temperature of the Earth?

The correct answer is that any temperature changes are too small to measure. Nor can there be any effect on extreme weather events.

To which I reply: exactly so.

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I don't believe that the RTC has any effect on the climate because all of the energy transfers are homogenized by the thermodynamic action of the gases in the atmosphere. It seems that the quantum theory people have forgotten that the atmosphere is a large system governed by gas law physics. Consequently, it's the sun and the changes in the albedo that we should be studying, not energy transmission windows due to gases in the atmosphere that allow energy to be absorbed and emitted at specific wavelengths.

I read a little more of Shula's comments. It seems like he's on the same track.

I think the climate change discussion will only return to sanity when we accept that the sun and the atmospheric pressure on our planet really drive the climate.

Best regards, -Darwin _____________ Darwin Throne

Dec 2, 2024, 11:35 AM Gerald Ratzer

to John Shanahan, Douglas Lightfoot, Terigi Ciccone

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A Nice reply from Ned!!

I think he is happy that I understand his papers.

My bold added below.

Cheers, Gerald.

From: NT Consulting Sent: December 2, 2024 12:55 PM To: Gerald Ratzer Cc: Darwin Throne Subject: Re: RTC and HTC

Dear Gerald, Darwin forwarded your communication below.

I'd like to commend you for the correct understanding of our GMAT model published in 2017. Indeed, our discovery was that total atmospheric pressure and mean annual TSI completely determine/define the longterm, baseline global temperatures of rocky planets & moons in the Solar System. Variations in cloud albedo and annual TSI cause departures of global temperature from that baseline value. These departures are described by Eq. 16 in our 2024 paper.

We now have an extension of the original GMAT model that describes baseline temperatures at several key latitudes in addition to the global mean. I'm currently working on a paper that will present the extended set 5

of equations along with an update of the 2017 pressure-Tb/Tna curve based on new data for the baseline temperatures of Earth, Venus and Titan.

The most critical conclusion from our research is that the Atmospheric Thermal Effect (ATE) is not a radiative phenomenon as assumed for nearly 200 years, but a thermodynamic one, and that ATE is independent of atmospheric composition. This latter finding alone implies that non-condensing trace gases such as CO2 cannot in principle have a measurable impact on climate.

Cheers, -Ned

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