Dennis

NEW YORK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT The Reminiscences of Dennis Potter

ART START Columbia University 2018

PREFACE The following oral history is the result of a recorded interview with Dennis Potter conducted by Mariama Noguera-Devers on [Month Day, Year]. This interview is part of the New York Oral History Project.

The reader is asked to bear in mind that they are reading a verbatim transcript of the spoken word, rather than written prose.

Potter – Session #1 – 2 ATC Interviewee: Dennis Potter Interviewer: Mariama Noguera-Devers

Session #1 Location: City, Two-Letter State Date: Month Date, Year

Noguera-Devers: [00:00:00] Okay. So, hello.

Potter: [00:00:05] Hello.

Noguera-Devers: [00:00:07] [laughs] My name is Mariama Noguera-Devers, and I’m here with —

Potter: [00:00:12] Dennis Potter.

Noguera-Devers: [00:00:13] Dennis. And we are just doing an oral history interview for the 2018 portrait project. Just to remind you, this year we’re going to be focusing on young men of color within New York City and Milwaukee. And the whole idea is to kind of let you show how you’d like to be seen, et cetera. I just wanted to remind you also of what it’s going to look like. It’s going to turn into a book and an exhibition. And so the whole idea of the oral history is that it’ll have your photo and then it’ll have, like, your oral history next to it. And so the whole idea of the oral history is that we’re going to take exact excerpts from things you’ve said and put it in. So we’re not going to summarize or change up your words or nothing. It’ll just be your exact words.

Cool. And then the purpose of the oral history is not to—or at least the purpose of today’s interview is not for me to try to pry, and mind your business; it’s just to kind of have a conversation. And if it is that I’m asking any questions that make you feel uncomfortable or you don’t want to talk about it, you can just let me know. I won’t feel bad.

Potter – Session #1 – 3

Potter: [00:01:34] I got you.

Noguera-Devers: [00:01:35] Cool. So I’m just going to start off—okay. [laughs] I think my voice is loud, so I’m going to bring this closer to you. Cool. [laughs] You look so tired. Okay, so I wanted to start off by asking you if you could tell me something about your life—like where you were born.

Potter: [00:02:03] I was born in Bed-Stuy. Actually, I actually was born in Quincy. That’s actually a block in Bed-Stuy. But, later on I moved, and, when I was turning three, that’s when I moved to Clifton. But I claim Clifton more, because that’s where I really grew up.

Noguera-Devers: [00:02:20] What is it about Clifton?

Potter: [00:02:22] It’s, like, the surrounding—like, the environment. It’s just regular, but it’s not really the projects or nothing. It was brownstones. I don’t even really want to be in projects. But they had ups and downs. They had the bad people. You had the good and bad. So a balance, in a way. That’s really it.

Noguera-Devers: [00:02:46] Cool, cool. Do you have any good memories from when you were in that neighborhood? Like, as a child?

Potter – Session #1 – 4 Potter: [00:02:54] All right, like, when I was younger, I don’t—I’m a shy kid. That’s just me. So, when there was a block party, then I just—I would be on the block party, but then I would just be antisocial. And I don’t know, that’s just me, though. I just don’t like people. So it’s like, sometimes, you’d just be outside, but after a while, when it was getting later on in the day, I’d just play outside. So, the block parties were fun, but as I started getting older, it was getting boring. So that’s why I didn’t really like it no more, because it wasn’t fun no more. And also, what I liked about the blocks was there was rappers on the blocks who [phonetic]—so they inspired me to do the same thing, too. Because I didn’t [phonetic]—these are the people I know.

So, like, to see them do something—it pushed me more, to want to go harder.

Noguera-Devers: [00:03:39] That’s cool. When you say there were rappers on the block, how did you meet them and stuff?

Potter: [00:03:45] Well, I knew them already. It’s just that I didn’t even know that they were rapping. Because the funny thing about it—the way Clifton is set up is—you know Nostrand, right? It’s Nostrand, you have Bedford. But those two strips—it extends more into—you could go to Flatbush, you could go from there. So, I was in Bed-Stuy. And it’s Clifton, it’s BedfordStuy, right? You have Bedford and you have Clifton. The block I was on, you have Nostrand, and there’s the block—that’s Clifton, too, but it’s just a different section of it, and they have projects there. So, my middle school wasn’t even too far from there. My middle school was Peace Academy, KAPPA VII. And some girl I was going to school with, she’d go [phonetic] right up the block from me, she lived right up the block, and her brother was a rapper. And she was like, “Yo, you’ve got to listen to my brother,” this, that, and the third. And, I listened to him, and it

Potter – Session #1 – 5 was cool for me. Mind you, I’d seen him before, but I didn’t even know he rapping. And, when he put me on, I was like, “That’s crazy.” And I wanted to rap too, but I could never learn rap, so I did only [phonetic] practicing and stuff like that. So then, just watching him, it’s like, the more that they do what they’re doing, it encouraged me. I wanted to be in that same position too. So, that made me go harder. And that’s how I became the person I am today.

Noguera-Devers: [00:05:00] That’s cool. Have you seen them since?

Potter: [00:05:04] No. I don’t live there no more. I don’t really talk to people. If I see you, I’ll see you, but it’s like, if you’re really one of my closest bros, we would have that connection, no matter where I go. But if it’s not really that kind of connection, then it’s, like, I don’t know what to tell you [phonetic]. And the thing about it is there was gangbangers. So, in my hood, my mother, she didn’t want me hanging around certain individuals. They would cause trouble. That’s why a lot of people say, Yo, if you hang out—say you pick with [phonetic]—fuck with these people, and your block is blood, why you don’t really [phonetic] be with them? My mother live on that block, you feel me? My stepfather live on that block, you feel me? I got people who were really [unclear], doing this, that, and third. They already know the deal. So it’s like, why would I even try to make it worse for myself and then caught up in any type of foolishness? So that’s why I just meet other people from outside of my neighborhood. And then growing up, that influenced my music. So, that’s why I say, Bed-Stuy, it really influenced my music. Even my block, where I’m from, the people that I would [phonetic] [unclear]—they get to the top and I’m seeing their music hitting two thousand views, so I’m like, all right. Let me keep practicing,

Potter – Session #1 – 6 because I know I’m trash. That really gave me that little spark. And then I just kept going and I— the more I keep doing what I’m doing—

[INTERRUPTION]

Noguera-Devers: [00:06:37] Hello? Okay. We should still be good. What were we talking about?

You were talking about how you got inspiration from the other rappers in your neighborhood, how they got two thousand views, so that—

Potter: [00:06:59] Well, they had numerous songs, so, they was getting their views up there [phonetic]. I already wanted to rap, but I couldn’t rap. That wasn’t really my strong suit. So I just wanted to be in that. Even other rappers, all of us wanted to be lyrical. So I just kept practicing. I just kept writing and writing and writing and writing. The more I made mistakes, the more music I listened to—rap music—that’s when I started becoming more lyrical. I just kept practicing.

Knowing more words. Then I would watch tutorials, hearing it, but then how—

Noguera-Devers: [00:07:30] You would watch what?

Potter: [00:07:31] Tutorials. How to rap. Because it’s—they actually have—

Noguera-Devers: [00:07:33] Really? [laughs]

Potter: [00:07:35] Yes.

Potter – Session #1 – 7

Noguera-Devers: [00:07:35] I didn’t know they had tutorials on how to rap.

Potter: [00:07:37] Yes, but I didn’t really follow it that much, because I already did it on my own.

Because I just looked at it hearing it [phonetic], but I felt like I wasn’t really understanding, what is it—talking about how to rap, that doesn’t make sense. I’m trying it, it’s not working for me.

So, I just started watching them, because I’m like, all right [phonetic], that’s dumb. You’ve got to do that on your own. And I started to realize, the more—as every year go by, I’d get more lyrical.

I’d just do more. Every time I write a rap, it would be [unclear] to the next rap [unclear]. So that’s why I just kept working [unclear]. And I realized, I’m getting somewhere with this. Even though I wanted to be a rapper because I saw Lil Wayne [Dwayne Michael Carter Jr.] doing it.

That was my idol. So it’s like, I didn’t really have it as a dream no more, because also, I was into baseball. Because I was with [phonetic] my father to tell me—he wanted me to play baseball.

And I wanted to do that, and I wasn’t going to be a rapper no more. But then after I started playing baseball, after a while, I’m like, all right, like, music is still fire [phonetic]. I [unclear] with it. And then after, it just—when I did that, I’m like, all right .I’m just hearing more songs and it’s—I just see it. I’m like, All right. That’s really fun. I’ve been able to do that, but then it’s —went away, came back. And then afterwards, I just kept writing more and more and more. And then that’s when I made more songs [phonetic] in 2015. I believe this was my freshman year of high school. I made a song—I wanted this [phonetic] [unclear] and I made a song. And after I finished making the song, it wasn’t good. I felt like at first when I was writing, I’m like, all right.

It was good to me. But then when I made it, and they didn’t [phonetic] like it. So then [unclear], I’ve got to go harder. Because the bad criticism, it turned to good criticism, because now I’m

Potter – Session #1 – 8 lyrical. The more people keep telling me I’m trash or whatever, it’s going to make me want to change their opinion, so that makes me go harder.

Noguera-Devers: [00:09:16] When you say people, who are you referring to?

Potter: [00:09:19]A lot of people. Like, at my high school. I have people who go on Facebook and stuff [phonetic] like that. I send it to people. And then, they would listen to it—they would make people listen to it, but then it’s like—they was just clowning me, but it was—all right, it was, like, this. They clowning me, but then it’s like, it’s getting me angry, it’s making me work harder.

Noguera-Devers: [00:09:43] And kind of like in that same vein, how do you think—who have been the most important people in your life, and how do you think they describe you?

Potter: [00:09:55] The most important people in my life? All right. My mother. My little brother.

My stepfather. His brothers and sisters, which is like—I call them my aunts and uncles. His mother, which I call my grandmother, because she treat me like a grandson. They all treat me like family. Like, his side of the family, basically. His immediate family, Josh [phonetic], his brother.

Noguera-Devers: [00:10:29] [laughs] Okay, and then if you want to choose just a few of those important people, how would they describe you? You could do one by one or all together.

Potter – Session #1 – 9 Potter: [00:10:39] All right. One of my cousins, Clint [phonetic], he would describe me as a good kid. He would describe me as somebody who worked hard and who really got a good heart.

Because even though I did wrong, I have—I don’t—any—I never really listened to my mother.

When I was young, I used to do a lot of dumb stuff, but people know I’m a good kid, because they notice, I’m just young, I’m going to get the message. So that’s why people would call me a good kid. I don’t like to start problems. But if I have to address a problem, I will really address.

If somebody tried to attack me, I’m going to fight back, best believe that. But I’m not going to try to sit down here and get [unclear]. What if I get locked up? I want to be a rapper. Now let’s say I’m doing twenty-five-to-life. I’m not going to be rapping if I’m in jail. So that’s why I try to be a humble beast. And a humble beast meaning, I know when I can be a beast, and I know when I can bring the anger out, but I just be—try to be humble, and I just try to alleviate the issues.

Noguera-Devers: [00:11:32] You mentioned Clint. What about your mom? How would your mom describe you?

Potter: [00:11:37] My mother would describe me as a good kid, but also a pain in the ass. I’m annoying to her, but she’s annoying to me too. But, that’s just what we do. We just annoy each other. But it’s all over [phonetic] at the end of the day, because we care [phonetic]. And she would also describe me as a loving person. But even though sometimes I get her upset, that’s it.

And she would say I’m intelligent and smart.

Noguera-Devers: [00:11:59] Cool. And then what about your stepfather?

Potter – Session #1 – 10 Potter: [00:12:02] He would say I’m a smart kid. Good. I’m a good kid.

Noguera-Devers: [00:12:05] [laughs] Okay. A lot of positive things. And how do you think people perceive young men of color in New York?

Potter: [00:12:26] All right. They feel like—

Noguera-Devers: [00:12:29] Or maybe before we could say that, how do you think people perceive your neighborhood? And you can choose whatever neighborhood.

Potter: [00:12:38] Any neighborhood?

Noguera-Devers: [00:12:39] But the one that you claim. Because I know you’re in the Bronx now, but you claim Brooklyn.

Potter: [00:12:43] Oh. Yes, I’m from Brooklyn, so that’s why I’m going to claim that.

Noguera-Devers: [00:12:46] Yes, yes, yes. How do you think people perceive that neighborhood?

Potter: [00:12:52] Brooklyn as a whole or my neighborhood—

Noguera-Devers: [00:12:54] Your neighborhood.

Potter – Session #1 – 11 Potter: [00:12:55] All right, my neighborhood. All right, they would perceive it as a ghetto environment for those who know what’s really going on. It’s just not all glitters and gold. People know there’s gangbangers on the block. But I really would describe it as a subtle, peaceful neighborhood. It’s weird, because stuff doesn’t [phonetic] happen, but it’s not like how stuff is happening in certain parts of Brooklyn. My block was, like—it was mostly—it would be— everybody was—all right, they was Bloods [phonetic], no? But more or less, they was drug dealing. That’s really what it was. They had their little incidents where they got [unclear]—be in a situation where everything was [unclear], but then it’s—more or less, it’s not really a whole bunch of ruckus. It’s kind of like a peaceful neighborhood, in a way. But then you have the little loud moments [phonetic] sometimes—who—people blasting their speakers all the time when you’re trying to sleep. It’ll be 2:00 in the morning, there’s people outside, smoking weed, getting lit and blasting music. But they’re not really too much—not really killing. But people have.

There are people who died, but not really—I don’t—I remember one time I was in the crib. And the way my house is set up—239—it’s more to Bedford—it’s like a [phonetic] liquor store. So I’m in the crib, and it’s—I’m in my mother’s room [phonetic]. This side is my mother’s room, and where [phonetic] my stepfather and my mother are at. The way it’s set up is, upstairs is like the private house. So upstairs is—it’s these two doors where we slide it. And then behind [phonetic]—when you open it, my brother and my room right here, and then [unclear] over there.

So me and my mother, we in there. I think my little brother in our room over there. I don’t know.

I think my stepfather, he was—yes, he was downstairs. Next thing you know, I’m just hearing gunshots outside. I see, red [phonetic] for a moment. A couple flashes, right? But, [unclear]. I’m like, what the fuck was that? That’s what I’m saying. But then as I got older, when I really put two and two together and understand what certain things are, that’s when I’m, like, [unclear].

Potter – Session #1 – 12 That’s why I’ve been seeing [phonetic] a lot but I didn’t really understand it. But so it had its ups and downs.

Noguera-Devers: [00:15:05] And how do you think people perceive—like, going back to the other question—like, young men of color in New York City?

Potter: [00:15:12] All right. They see us as thugs.

Noguera-Devers: [00:15:15] As what?

Potter: [00:15:17] As thugs. But I can’t really blame them, though. Because, like, there’s rape [phonetic]. All right, I’m from Brooklyn, and Brooklyn—it’s like, if you ever—you know Chief Keef [Keith Cozart], right? You know, like, drill rap, right? Like, what he do? Like, the music he make? Like, it’s like trap music, but it’s like gangsta music more or less—gangbanging music— as the—society would call it. So, I see songs with people—they talk about—it’s gang—they talk all this—there’s gang stuff and all that, and they talk their [phonetic] gang talk. When people start to say negative stuff about them, it’s, like, now they want to change their image. If you’re showing us this one thing but then you’re talking about it, you’re a paradox. Like, how are you going to try to sit down here and say that, oh, you know, you’re not—you’re innocent, you don’t do nothing wrong, this, that, and the third. Like, and you [unclear] saying you [unclear] but you’re putting pistols in your videos, you’re doing—like, incriminating yourself. So that’s why many people [phonetic] will [phonetic] see, all right, these are a bunch of thugs. And then, when they look at you like that, you can’t really get mad, because you put that image on yourself. So

Potter – Session #1 – 13 it’s like, people want to look a certain way and they get mad when they get judged. So when people view certain men—like, men of color in New York City, you [unclear] what they see.

Even though you can’t judge a book by its cover, you’re just going to look at what you’re seeing at take it for what it is.

Noguera-Devers: [00:16:39] And what about the folks that are not doing things like that? Not showing pistols and not—because they can’t—because you’re seeing that they group everybody as—all young men of color as thugs. But not everyone is doing what Chief Keef is doing. So what would you say for those other folks?

Potter: [00:16:57] Well, there are other folks who—all right, for example, Chief Keef. He’s an artist. They have other artists who do that, But, even regular people—civilians—they do stuff, right, and then get mad when the consequences come to them. If you’re a criminal or you’re living an illegal life and you know what you’re doing and you get caught or whatever, you’ve got to understand that you’re doing something that’s against the law. So if you get caught, it’s not their fault. They’re doing their job. So it’s like, whatever image you want to give out, that’s the image you’re going to give out. Some people, they act a certain way, and then people are going to look at you a certain way. No, that’s his character. But part of that might not be your character.

So whatever people see and whatever you give people to see is going to be what they take it as.

Noguera-Devers: [00:17:39] Okay. And what has stood out to you about yourself throughout your life? What makes you you? What makes Dennis Dennis?

Potter – Session #1 – 14 Potter: [00:17:52] What makes me me is the fact that I take everything for a grain of salt. I wouldn’t even say a grain of salt. What stood out to me more is the pain in my life. That really stood out more. That’s really what pushes me and motivates me. Because the thing about it, there’s people who doubted me. There’s people who’ve turned on me. There’s people who did me wrong. So I have exes [phonetic] and all that. They did me wrong. And I know I want to get to the top. So I’m trying to get them mad [phonetic]. All the people who ever did me wrong and ever did me dirty and stuff like that—and snaked me and stuff like that—everybody who ever did something negative to me in my life, I want to stunt on them [phonetic]. So what [unclear] do —

Noguera-Devers: [00:18:34] You said stunt on them?

Potter: [00:18:35] Yes. And now what that’s going to make me do—it’s going to make me want to fight hard and push for what I want to do. And that’s going to say [phonetic], at the back of my mind, like, if I give up now, it’s going to prove [phonetic] them and I’m—I ain’t going to be nothing. So what I’m going to do, I’m going to show them wrong. I’m going to prove them wrong. So what’s that going to make me do is, [unclear]. I [unclear] right in this [unclear]. If [unclear] I’m going to go this week. So there’s the motivation. You’ve got to motivate yourself, so if you know you really want to accomplish your goal, you’ve got to fight for that goal.

Noguera-Devers: [00:19:12] And what are your dreams for the future?

Potter – Session #1 – 15 Potter: [00:19:13] All right. My dreams for the future is simple. I want to be a famous artist. I want to make video games. I want to make movies. I eventually want to, like, branch off into other performance art, without only just sticking to one. And also be in the business [unclear].

That’s just my goal for the future. Oh, and having kids and being married. That’s it. I feel like I’m going to be a famous artist, so I don’t really want to—I don’t want to be—what do you call them? I don’t want to be out there just getting caught up like Bill Cosby [William Henry Cosby Jr.]. You see how he had [unclear] coming to him. I don’t want to have that. Because then I’m famous—now let’s say I’m famous—and then people would just hating [phonetic] on me. They ain’t going to try to bring something up, so if I never seen you, what can you say about me? I feel like, just starting a family is really a good goal. That’s another goal. And taking care of my family and my friends.

Noguera-Devers: [00:20:20] Taking care of your friends, you said?

Potter: [00:20:21] And family. Or having a few—having two otters.

Noguera-Devers: [00:20:26] Otters?

Potter: [00:20:28] Yes. I’m so serious.

Noguera-Devers: [00:20:30] [laughs] Why?

Potter – Session #1 – 16 Potter: [00:20:32] They’re so cute. I’m going to have two otters, one boy, one girl, and let them make—have otter babies. So—

Noguera-Devers: [00:20:42] You have it all planned out.

Potter: [00:20:42] Yes.

Noguera-Devers: [00:20:44] [laughs] Okay. And you said take care of your friends and family.

How do you plan to do that?

Potter: [00:20:51] By helping. Let’s say I’m—all right, I [unclear]—I’ve got money, and they ain’t got it like that, I’ve got to help. Because, for example, sometimes be feeling like, oh, well, it’s my—people be selfish. You’ve got to understand. Karma is funny. Because sometimes, you might not have it one day, somebody might have it. And people feel like, all right, if I’ve got it right now, I’m going to have it forever. But you never know where you’re going—what you’re going to hit and life is going to make you be—you can’t push that [unclear]. So you never know when you’re going to be stopped in your tracks. Being looked down [phonetic] on people because they got a—but if I had money and stuff like that—if I was in that position, I would be helping people. That’s what my—that’s why I say, my friends and my family.

Noguera-Devers: [00:21:40] Okay. So for portrait project, right, could you tell me a little bit about your photo?

Potter – Session #1 – 17 Potter: [00:21:50] All right. My photo? My photo is simple. It was basically, I’m on my block.

And in my music, in a way, I talk about my block a lot. That’s just where I grew up. So that’s a part of me. And you know what’s crazy? A lot of people don’t understand. Sometimes you don’t really have to be affiliated with certain dudes in the hood to claim that block. If you’re really from that block—you grew up on that block—that’s your block too, you understand what I’m saying? [unclear] get technical [phonetic]. So—

Noguera-Devers: [00:22:22] [laughs] I just asked you if you could tell me about your picture—

Potter: [00:22:26] Oh, you mean my portrait project [phonetic]. [unclear]. In my own music, I [unclear] my own block [phonetic] a lot. So what I do, or what they did for me, they gave me the [phonetic] idea of [phonetic] saying, well, if you feel like you are your block, if you’re a part of that neighborhood, why don’t we give you—where—you’re standing on the [phonetic] block, you’re standing on the—it’s across the street from my house. They gave me this scenery. They actually looked it up. They gave me scenery—like it’s actually—an [phonetic] actual building.

I’ve been to the building in front of my house, across the street. And it’s actually outside this way. Like, diagonal.

Noguera-Devers: [00:23:02] It’s across, here [phonetic]?

Potter: [00:23:02] Yes, diagonal. Because our neighbors are right next to us. The next building, and our neighbors is right across the street from that. So, diagonally. And what they did was, they made me stand, right? And I’m basically forming [phonetic] with my block. Because if I’m a part

Potter – Session #1 – 18 of my block, the [phonetic] cement—if you [unclear] the ground of [phonetic] cement, it’s coming onto my legs, so, I’m basically one with—I’m one with the block.

Noguera-Devers: [00:23:28] Cool. Do you think you’ll ever return to that block? Do you think you’ll ever want to move back?

Potter: [00:23:34] No. Not yet.

Noguera-Devers: [00:23:38] [laughs] Why?

Potter: [00:23:39] I don’t know. You have to understand, sometimes, you’ve just got to leave certain places and certain situations. You’ve got to let people—I won’t even say miss you. But, for example, my mother, she has people that she don’t talk to on that [phonetic] block no more.

She cut them off. When we moved the first time, we went to Bushwick. Nobody knew— [unclear] that we left—until they stopped seeing us, and they see that we’re not there no more.

People have to get cut off. So also, too, it was—I felt like, with me doing what I’m doing, what if I blow up and then people who ain’t on my level, they try to kill me? Because another thing, too, is people have a lot of envy. Envy and jealousy. So it’s like, that’s where the trust issues come in.

So it’s like, sometimes, people, they see that, and you don’t ever know who’s watching you.

That’s what’s weird. You won’t ever know was looking at your life and who probably want to take that away from you, so they probably could hurt you. So sometimes it’s like, you can’t really be around wolves [unclear]. Honestly, you can’t really be around wolves. Because that’s all they’re going to do, is act like wolves. Let’s say you’re a sheep, and you’re trying to—you’re

Potter – Session #1 – 19 a sheep and you’re with predators. They’re going to try to take you. They’re just going to try to kill you. So what you’ve got to do is, you’ve just got to try to make a way for yourself. And when I get older, I’m not going to be in Bed-Stuy. If I live in New York, I’m going to live somewhere, like, nice and quiet.

Noguera-Devers: [00:24:58] Like where?

Potter: [00:24:59] Manhattan.

Noguera-Devers: [00:25:01] Manhattan? That’s quiet? [laughs]

Potter: [00:25:03] Well, [unclear]—well, even on Long Island [unclear]—even Long Island and Staten Island.

Noguera-Devers: [00:25:10] Well, thank you, Dennis.

Potter: [00:25:11] You’re welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]