Page 1


Index..

P:

D:

Q:

C:

.. ...

CAT Institute // 6. Community // 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23. Crossroads // 20. Culture // 3, 11, 12, 16, 19. Develop // 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 15, 17, 20, 21, 22. Developer // 20, 21, 22, 23.

G:

Government // 3, 4, 5, 16, 17, 20, 22.

K:

Kansas City // 2, 7, 15, 18, 20, 24.

L:

LISC // 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

N:

Neighborhood // 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.

O:

Organization // 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 22. Organizer // 7, 13, 15.

Participant // 8, 9, 12, 17, 18, 21, 23. Philadelphia // 5, 6, 7, 15, 19. Providence // 2, 3, 4.

Questions // 6, 9, 12, 18, 23.

S:

Saint Louis // 2, 3, 4, 7, 15, 16. Sustain // 3, 23. System // 3, 19.

T:

Train // 2, 3, 4, 6, 17, 20. Troost // 20, 21, 22.

V:

Vocabulary // 2, 3, 5.


C: D: G: K: L: N: O: P: Q: S: T: V:

Develop // 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 15, 17, 2 Developer // 20, 21, 22, 2

Page(s)

ndex... .

CAT Institute // 6. Community // 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14 Crossroads // 20. Culture // 3, 11, 12, 16, 1

Government // 3, 4, 5, 16, 17,

Kansas City // 2, 7, 15, 18, 2 LISC // 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Neighborhood // 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15, 16

Q:

Organization // 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, 15, 16 Organizer // 7, 13, 15.

Participant // 8, 9, 12, 17, 18, Philadelphia // 5, 6, 7, 15, Providence // 2, 3, 4.

I

Questions // 6, 9, 12, 18, 23. Questions // 6, 9, 12, 18,

Saint Louis // 2, 3, 4, 7, 15 Sustain // 3, 23. System // 3, 19.

Train // 2, 3, 4, 6, 17, 20 Troost // 20, 21, 22.


Community.


Jim W: We will provide some form

of public output from the presentation today and hopefully the idea of Next Steps will be present.

Amy K: The premise behind having

this conversation and all of the conversations that will come after this, of which we hope to have many, is to have a place to talk about things that are actually kind of hard to talk about. Umm I want to stress that we did bring in some folks today to kind of lay out the plan for this conversation. So today what we’re trying to do is to establish some kind of vocabulary of a very hard topic. We’re trying to talk a little about this is something that is happening on a very large scale, so we have a couple of representatives from larger cities that can talk about, that this is not. There are things that happen in Kansas City that we know are relative to this but it’s not exclusively a Kansas City problem, this is something that is going on kind of all over the country right now. So, this conversation is a progressive conversation, it doesn’t end today, we’re going to talk today and then we’re going to reconvene and figure out what is the Next Step of the conversation. So these cards that we’re having you fill out actually serve a very functional purpose to really tell the program what happens next. So that’s where we’re going. I also want to call out that in this little hand out that you have, there’s a little piece here about debate versus dialogue. Debate vs. dialogue. And if you take a look at this, this is really how we want to characterize this conversation. We really want this to be a dialogue.We want everyone here to

come onto the table and I would say the very last thing on this dialogue sheet where it says discover new options, this is our goal for the whole series of conversations. You know in these difficult things that artists are dealing with, that communities are dealing with, this is a place where we’re looking to discover new options by listening to each other. So let’s hope that happens. I will ask that we will do what we can — like I said, these are hard things that we are going to talk about and there are going to be people that will have very, very, very passionate opinions about this and that’s ok and we should figure that out. And we should do that, but do that with the goal of discovering new options. But with that I’m going to invite people to come in. So Liz. Let me do this quick thing so you guys can start your conversation with each other. But Liz is from the Regional Art Council of St. Louis and she offers art training—

Liz P: Through The Arts Training

Institute— in St. Louis and there’s a meeting happening in St. Louis called Ultra Shift. Jose Fause is a very important Kansas City local. You guys may know him as an artist, as a writer, as a muralist, as a community activist, as someone that literally shows up at everything. So Jose’s on the Charlotte Street board and also the Board of (Rut/Riot?) place. And Lynn is with us from national LISC. Lynne is in from Providence, and we’re very excited to have her here to talk about this. So, if you guys don’t mind sitting down and then we’ll just get started.


We’re trying to talk a little about this is something that is happening on a very LARGE scale

So, this conversation is a progressive conversation, it doesn’t end today

everyone we wanted to engage

in on this conversation

These are hard things that we are going to talk about and there are going to be people that will have very, very, very passionate opinions about this and that’s ok and we should figure that out. And we should do that, but do that with the

goal of discovering new options.


2

Jose F: So, the main part of this

conversation is that we wanted to engage everyone in on this conversation. If something strikes you what’s been said, signal it. This is to be an open dialogue. So the first question can each of you talk about what you do and how you represent your work in the conversation?

Lynne M: Hi everyone, thank you

for having us, we’re really excited to be here. I do want to recognize the local LISC office and Steven Samuels is here as the director from the local LISC office. I joined LISC a year ago after working in the city government for 18 years. I was director in Providence. Increasingly what we’re finding is that in terms of our access to resources as artists is that there was a bigger role for them to play in community development and so we’ve worked really hard during those 18 years to have artists be front and center alongside developers and people who are working on improving the city on everyone who lives there. It’s sort of a key component of that work. I came to LISC over a year ago to oversee a program that the Kresge Foundation is funding to bring community development and artists together to work in community and create positive outcomes for people who are living in our system For those of you who don’t know what LISC is about, LISC is a national organization that was founded in the late 70s, early 80s by the Ford Foundation in order to take big chunks of resources at the national level, give it to the federal government and big foundations and bringing it to local offices to do local work on the ground to

bring benefits to the neighborhoods and people living there that need it. We do a lot of things, but that’s sort of the easy way to understand it. So, my job right now is to work with local offices in their communities with organization on the ground and artists on the ground to use arts and culture as a strategy to improve the place and create a safe space where we’re talking about neighborhoods, specifics, and in some places not city-wide with more than one goal. We’re building on our sustainable community strategy which have been with us for a long time. That’s kind of the goal, and where I’m coming from.

LP: My name is Liz, hi everyone.

I’m here from St. Louis and I run a training program there called In The Arts Training Institute and it is based out of the Regional Arts Commission of St. Louis, which is a local art agency in St. Louis. And the program that I run is an intentionally cross-sectored training program for artists of all disciplines and people who work in community studies and how to collaborate and work together to bring arts into community work and that can be happening in neighborhoods, in homeless shelters, prisons, hospitals, schools, anywhere you might consider there to be a community. We think the arts have a place everywhere and so we really try to use the Institute as a training ground for that and as a way to bring people together that might not work together or know how to work together and start to bridge the vocabulary differences and the field and really develop a network of people who care


"Artists come TOGETHER to work in community and create positive outcomes for people."

"""""""

"Bring benefits to the neighborhoods and people living there that need it."

"So, my job right now is to work with local offices in their communities with organization on the ground and artists on the ground to use arts and culture as a strategy to improve the place and create a safe space where we’re talking about neighborhoods, specifics, and in some places notcity-wide with more than one goal."

We think the arts have a place h e ry e e w r v e

"""""""


3

about this work and be able to do it in a way that is very intentional and very inclusive of people that are in that kind of work. So we talk a lot about this model I’m sure you’ve heard of it. We talk about how you work within communities that is very respectful and to bring those voices into the planning of the projects and so we’ll be focusing on what we call community arts and its approach. And my background is primarily in community settings, I was previously running a neighborhood organization in the city of Saint Louis, and prior to that I have experience in start-ups of all things and the entrepreneurial community in Boston and it’s actually been an interesting connection because I’ve been working with Co-working and Co-working is based there. And it’s also very similar to a neighborhood in that it is a community with a different company and different group in each office and there’s a real community sense there too and so I’ve been feeling very fortunate to merge my passion for the arts with communities out through this training program. I feel very fortunate to run it and bring it to other people. And we’re not the only ones in the nation that does this, but it’s been something that has been a real asset for the St. Louis region and I’ve seen a lot of really positive projects and initiatives come out of it.

JF: Well, going into one part about the

community, the government’s role, basically you’re working in communities, you’re funding the works, is that the group’s or independent? LISC has to work in the neighborhoods,

municipalities, and such. So first off, how does that happen from your kind of work? How do you get to maintain the focus you want to do because government will have the money and different incentives from outside sources?

LM: As a former city person working

with the local LISC office in Providence, I think that the way we approach the work is about creating shared values, so one of the shared values that this government entity and the community development agency or the arts may have to bring economic and social cohesion and positive into neighborhood development to work together. It’s really about the shared values and shared outcomes and really figuring out which pieces the government can do and which pieces community development and nonprofits can do and which pieces the artists can do when trying to solve the problem. So I think that’s the first thing. I think that the second thing in terms of what government can bring to the table in in support of what artists can do in the community in terms of zoning and all kinds of issues, so many. We could articulate about what we’re talking about with the work or the problem then that we mentioned earlier. Maybe Amy can talk about that.

JF: Ok, so who wants to go right into it?

LM: So let me get right into it. I think

there are advantages and problems. So I think let’s talk about both. So what is the landscape of what we’re talking about? There are all kinds of words that come


about this work and be able to do it in a way that is very intentional and very inclusive of people that are in that kind of work. So we talk a lot about this model I’m sure you’ve heard of it. We talk about how you work within communities that is very respectful and to bring those voices into the planning of the projects and so we’ll be focusing on what we call community arts and its approach. And my background is primarily in community settings, I was previously running a neighborhood organization in the city of Saint Louis, and prior to that I have experience in start-ups of all things and the entrepreneurial community in Boston and it’s actually been an interesting connection because I’ve been working with Co-working and Co-working is based there. And it’s also very similar to a neighborhood in that it is a community with a different company and different group in each office and there’s a real community sense there too and so I’ve been feeling very fortunate to merge my passion for the arts with communities out through this training program. I feel very fortunate to run it and bring it to other people. And we’re not the only ones in the nation that does this, but it’s been something that has been a real asset for the St. Louis re-

gion and I’ve seen a lot of really positive projects and initiatives come out of it.

JF: Well, going into one part about the

community, the government’s role, basically you’re working in communities, you’re funding the works, is that the group’s or independent? LISC has to work in the neighborhoods, municipalities, and such. So first off, how does that happen from your kind of work? How do you get to maintain the focus you want to do because government will have jose faus the money and different incentives from outside sources?

“How do you get to maintain the focus you want to do because government will have the money and different incentives from outside sources?” —

LM: As a former city person working

with the local LISC office in Providence, I think that the way we approach the work is about creating shared values, so one of the shared values that this government entity and the community development agency or the arts may have to bring economic and social cohesion and positive into neighborhood development to work together. It’s really about the shared values and shared outcomes and really figuring out which pieces the government can do and which pieces community development and


4

up, there’s like creative peacemaking that comes up, and what does that mean? And I think like two things, one being let’s talk about some of the vocabulary that gets you all the time in arts and community conversation and like you know, what are the things that are advantages and what are the things that are the problems, and how do people deal with those things?

JF: Well specifically, let me throw

something out to you, so I had this conversation the other talk talking to someone about the 18th and Vine street, and there was the sense that in some ways the project and intervention that is coming from outside the community trying to recreate a kind of monument at the destination that doesn’t necessarily have the folks in mind, there’s always kind of these fears of mistrust of intent, and then as the project progresses, something gets lost. The community disappears. So have you guys experienced that, have you dealt with that and how do you deal with it?

LM: I think it’s about, I can’t speak

to that exact problem but when you’re talking about coming in from the outside, or not honoring the history of the place or not digging deeper to find the history of the place, and be inclusive in how we do that, we’re setting ourselves up for all kinds of problems right? So how do you create, umm, how do you take the best intentions and make sure those intentions aren’t laced with assumptions? And how do you test the assumptions you may have as an artist working in the community or the

government coming in someplace that we want to make a destination area you know that’s going to offer diversity of this place and really intentionally really do it and not just put some rings on it. So how do you do that? You have to have the residents and the people that understand the heart of that history in the middle of all of it as co-designers of whatever’s going to happen, as co-creators of the things you’re trying to solve, as the experts who understand what the community is and what it’s about and where the problems are. So in the work that we’re doing with LISC nationally, that’s very front and center. Residents then are co-creating change that includes artists and residents working together to solve the problems in the neighborhoods, to solve things like hotspots for crime, like what you’re doing here with the Burn Program. So the Burn program is a program where the Department of Justice funds community policing work. So there’s a lot of creative solutions and problems to that. In Philadelphia, there was an empty lot that was just the center to drug trafficking crime going on, and we went in, took it over and built in a park. It sounds really simple but the way that it was done wasn’t just the artist community doing it for that lot for the community, the residents were involved in the changing and redesigning everything that was in the park and they continue to be engaged in that space and figuring out ways to have programs. So those are the kind of things that shift the making, right?


There’s always kind of these fears of mistrust of intent, and then as the project progresses, something gets lost. The community d i s a p p e r

a

So how do you create how do you take the best intentions and make sure those intentions aren’t laced with assumptions? ? ?

? ?

?

?

? ?

?

?

? ?

?

? ? ? ? You have to have the residents and the people

that understand the heart of that history in the middle of all of it as co-designers of whatever’s going to happen, as co-creators of the things you’re trying to solve, as the experts who understand what the community is and what it’s about and where the problems are.


5

LP: Yeah, and that’s something that

we’re dealing with right now with the CAT Institute that a couple of years ago did a lot of training, so we had 16 people come in, 8 artists, for 5 months that they work in community settings. They would go into five month training programs and hopefully leave with motivation and skills to do this kind of work. And three years, or fours year ago now, we checked out a play space model, so we would go into the neighborhood, and partner with the people there to develop a training program that was relevant to the neighborhood and train the people who were from that neighborhood, in that neighborhood and spoke about that neighborhood. And so the challenge there was going into the neighborhood, the problem is that we don’t want to go into a neighborhood and be like we’ve got this really awesome thing that you need so we’re going to do it for you. Instead we’re trying to be very intentional and ask questions because we’re pretty new to this and say how do we. We recognize that we have a resource, whether you’re talking about funding or the training program we’ve seen proven over the years to successful, so we can have confidence that this going to be something but we have to be cautious with ourselves and be humble about like what our role really is and what our place is. And so being able to at the moment—honestly it’s really messy work in figuring out with each new year in figuring out how do we even work with them and how to get permission to even enter that neighborhood. Who has the say to say whether this program is really the right thing for the

neighborhood at that moment? Is that our decision to make? Probably not, because we don’t live there, we don’t really know what’s going on. And we’ve found that what we’re doing currently is getting into a slow and intentional process asking around and ourselves who are we really helping in the area, let’s start having lunch with them, letting them know what this is about, offering up ourselves as like a tool for them to use if they deem it would be good, asking is there anyone that could serve as the voice of the neighborhood? Is there a neighborhood organization that really does have the whole neighborhood included in there? Are there discussion forums to for dialogue about the different opportunities coming in? And it’s something that takes a lot of time, and that’s been a really time based thing and it’s been a lot of more successful, a lot more buy-in, a lot more ownership of the program. They’re seeing us coming in as a resource and not as a solution.

JF: In engaging the artists into going

into the community, you’re looking for the voice in the community, you’re coming in with a good intention, but isn’t the artist always coming in as an outsider or are you looking within the community asking what are the artists going to do?

LM: And I think that’s what happening at LISC.

JF: And how does that look for you?

LM: In Philadelphia for example, there is an organization called


LP: Yeah, and that’s something that

we’re dealing with right now with the CAT Institute that a couple of years ago did a lot of training, so we had 16 people come in, 8 artists, for 5 months that they work in community settings. They would go into five month training programs and hopefully leave with motivation and skills to do this kind of work. And three years, or fours year ago now, we checked out a play space model, so we would go into the neighborhood, and partner with the people there to develop a training program that was relevant to the neighborhood and train the people who were from that neighborhood, in that neighborhood and spoke about that neighborhood. And so the challenge there was going into the neighborhood, the problem is that we don’t want to go into a neighborhood and be like we’ve got this really awesome thing that you need so we’re going to do it for you. Instead we’re trying to be very intentional and ask questions because we’re pretty new to this and say how do we. We recognize that we have a resource, whether you’re talking about funding or the training program we’ve seen proven over the years to successful, so we can have confidence that this going to be something but we have to be cautious with ourselves and be humble about like what our role really is and what our place is. And so being able to at the moment—honestly it’s really messy work in figuring out with each new year in figuring out how do we even work with them and how to get permission to even enter that neighborhood. Who has the say to say whether this program is really the right thing for the

neighborhood at that moment? Is that our decision to make? Probably not, because we don’t live there, we don’t really know what’s going on. And we’ve found that what we’re doing currently is getting into a slow and intentional process asking around and ourselves who are we really helping in the area, let’s start having lunch with them, letting them know what this is about, offering up ourselves as like a tool for them to use if they deem it would be good, asking is there anyone that could serve as the voice of the neighborhood? Is there a neighborhood organization that really does have the whole neighborhood included in there? Are there discussion forums to for dialogue about the different opportunities coming in? And it’s something that takes a lot of time, and that’s been a really time based thing and it’s been a lot of more successful, a lot more buy-in, a lot more ownership of the program. They’re seeing us coming in as a resource and not as a solution.

JF: In engaging the artists into going

into the community, you’re looking for the voice in the community, you’re coming in with a good intention, but isn’t the artist always coming in as an outsider or are you looking within the community asking what are the artists going to do?

LM: And I think that’s what happening at LISC.

JF: And how does that look for you?

LM: In Philadelphia for example, there is an organization called


6

Bills for Arts and Humanities, it’s been in Eastern North Building for 40 years led by an African-American writer and an Asian-American sculptor. And they’ve been a part of the 1970s community arts movement, these leaders they’ve built this organization and over the forty years, it shifted and they’ve gone on and done other things but that organization has been an anchor in the community for forty years and so how do we strengthen that organization to take on um more issues around community development. And they’re doing that intentionally on their own anyway, um but they have a residency program where they bring artists in from the outside and work in that neighborhood. um then there’s this great program that um, called the People’s Paper Cooperative, uh where um the artist came in and was really interested um folks coming-uh reentering it, reentering after prison and work with a group of women to create this expungement plan they do expungement in Philadelphia where people (?) being incarcerated take their records and expunge them and they walk away. But they were actually things in the digital things with those records, they were making paper with them (?) holding the paper and you know having the women write their own news stories about visions of the future. That artist left this project and it’s been picked up by the community and the women who worked in it, so I think it’s things like that where the organization itself is very intentional about, it’s very rooted in the neighborhood but also wanted to bring in (?’s) point of view that might actually

inform the work and I think it’s that kind of dialogue. Another example in Philadelphia, there’s another organization called (I am a?) Part of Kenya (interruption) that we just invested 2 million dollars in helping them build a cultural center but it was 10 years worth of work to get them to the place where they were ready for that building but they’ve been in the neighborhood for 40 years too, so I think it’s how do you cultivate the assets that are within, first and foremost, but then not being totally afraid to bring in people from outside in but it has to be done with the support of an organization that understands their neighborhood, an artist in that neighborhood that understands the neighborhood or in partnership with a community organizer or a community based organization that understands the issues and I think, so I think, I think it’s really um not one or the other, but both. but can you pull it together you know I can probably suggest.

JF: What’s happening is very (sympathy?)

LM: Okay, I think that, I think both,

because sometimes in conversation we can get into things that everything that we need is from this one inner circle-at least in a city like St. Louis we can sort of insular and not really be real uneven, just know the neighbors but also just within the region and it’s so forgetful and left out that it’s what’s happening in Kansas City or what’s happening in Chicago and what’s happening somewhere else from whatever distance


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7

we’re talking about but being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it, um, is something that is taking up to 10 years so it makes a lot of sense that people don’t have the time for those things to happen.

Participant: (Now let me back up?)

because you were talking about trying to identify which neighborhood to go into, so how long is that process, you guys have had (spoken law?) and you guys have done, so I think like for me it’s kind of how does that come about in an organization like yours where you specifically are putting items in and is that a problem-

LM: Right right right, so we’re only

4 years in so I would say we’re still figuring that out honestly and so what we did for the first 3 years of it so the program I’ve been running we’ve been running almost 20 years now, so we have almost 350 people in the region who’ve been through the program that are doing more activity in the region so we were able to um identify neighborhoods that are in the critical mass of graduates of the program so people who were living or working or were otherwise very heavily invested in the neighborhoods and they’ve been through our programs so they knew what it was about so they were great resources to just to be able to reach back and say “Is this relevant? Would this be helpful and help make those decisions and then those connections with the community, so

the process will go a lot faster in those neighborhoods. And it’s only now that we, sort of, um sort of down to, sort of, the I guess you could call them the “Low Hanging Fruit” and they were also good partners in like, starting a tube test for us this month. And get some feedback on “Is this really working? What about it works? What needs to be changed?” um, so now we’re looking out to other neighborhoods that we don’t have that, that critical mass in. And, so this year what we did was actually changed the way we run the Playspace Institute, this neighborhood based institute. Rather than having one neighborhood with 16 people from it we were under, we did not have the relationships built in other neighborhoods to really make the decision around like, man, is this really, is this right can we dive into this neighborhood, so we um identified 4 neighborhoods that had come up as a source for alumni and any relations that we have and invited 4 people from each of those neighborhoods to come in as like a hybridized version of we have this regional model, and this playspace model so we would like playspace theme within 4 places so it would have original focus and through that we are getting some feedback from them on how it’s all working and like would this be relevant in your neighborhood, um you know, could you see this in the future? And, uh, now with 16 different strategies working all together. But it was a real shift and it was just a challenge getting that development organization to think about how it was going to benefit people who were already in the neighborhood and


What needs to be changed? What needs to be changed? What needs to be changed? What needs to be changed?

What about it works? What about it works?

Is this really working? Is this really working? Is this really working? Is this really working?

What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works? What about it works?

by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it by what’s going on and that they should put a voice in that and that it

being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected being very mindful to be inclusive and having things driven by the people who are most affected


8

not just bring in hipster artists to kind of do cool things. (laughter) (?) arts, I get to say that. (laughter).

Participant: That’s a question that I

wanna add which is, if you’re an artist, how do you know that you are partnering with the folks that are doing it with the intent that you want to pursue? How do you know that you’re not being, you know, taken advantage of and that you’re not just being brought in to do something that’s not community endorsed and not being cosigned and how do you. Yeah. And I didn’t mean that that in a bad way, and I mean, I think-I think everyone doing this work, regardless of how far along they are in terms of, like, the understanding of community engagement, is doing it with really good intention. Um but, but sometimes there needs to be that extra kind of understanding.

LP: So yeah I think it’s a complicated

question, because I think there’s no one, there’s not one formula you can follow that works every time, every place. It depends on the situation the neighborhood. But, um, I guess I get back to a lot of question asking for yourself. If you’re an artist or a leader trying to make change happen. And stopping yourself and asking yourself questions around like what if a resident of the neighborhood comes to me who I haven’t talked to about this yet. And they ask me to explain this project, would I feel proud about the way their going about it? I just hold my head up high and explain why they come to the table. And if they haven’t heard about it, why

didn’t they hear about it yet? Ya know, could be a they just didn’t get the message or whatever. But what are you working with, groups that are there or not, in order to try and reach them, to put in effort in it or was it because (?) ya know for me that’s a little tactic I try to use, yeah.

Participant: I think a really good

question is, what will happen what the project is over? because then there’s that sense of, is it something that the community wanted so much that they’re owning it and they’re deciding what going to happen with it, or is it s omething that’s going to be a burden? And something that’s you know, going to cause problems in other ways. And it kind of helps people to shift back to that bigger picture.

LP: And that question of ownership,

(?) completed, starts before it’s over we talk about all that (?) there’s gonna be (?) at some point. (?) when does it happen, where does it go at that point, is there someone to look it over? hopefully they’re already involved.

JF: (?) I mentioned and talked to (?)

last night. And she’s for an oral history project that taking place at Douglas (Sunder?) or in case ? (35?) years ago they got (?) who engaging students to go into an oral history project (with their?) community tell their story abundantly. African American neighborhood probably won’t have that history written into it. but it was written by a teacher and the teacher let the project hands in the air. and sometimes (?) can be picked up in


not just bring in hipster artists to kind of do cool things. (laughter) (?) arts, I get to say that. (laughter).

Participant: That’s a question that I

wanna add which is, if you’re an artist, how do you know that you are partnering with the folks that are doing it with the intent that you want to pursue? How do you know that you’re not being, you know, taken advantage of and that you’re not just being brought in to do something that’s not community endorsed and not being cosigned and how do you. Yeah. And I didn’t mean that that in a bad way, and I mean, I think-I think everyone doing this work, regardless of how far along they are in terms of, like, the understanding of community engagement, is doing it with really good intention. Um but, but sometimes there needs to be that extra kind of understanding.

LP: So yeah I think it’s a complicated

didn’t they hear about it yet? Ya know, could be a they just didn’t get the message or whatever. But what are you working with, groups that are there or not, in order to try and reach them, to put in effort in it or was it because (?) ya know for me that’s a little tactic I try to use, yeah.

Participant: I think a really good

question is, what will happen what the project is over? because then there’s that sense of, is it something that the community wanted so much that they’re owning it and they’re deciding what going to happen with it, or is it something that’s going to be a burden? And something that’s you know, going to cause problems in other ways. And it kind of helps people to shift back to that bigger picture.

LP: And that question of ownership,

And that question of ownership (?) completed, starts before it’s over And that question of ownership we talk about all that (?) there’s gonna And that question of ownership be (?)And at that some point. (?) when does it question of ownership happen, where does it go at that point, is And that question of ownership thereAnd someone look it over? hopefully that question ofto ownership And that question of ownership they’re already involved.

question, because I think there’s no one, there’s not one formula you can follow that works every time, every place. It depends on the situation the neighborhood. But, um, I guess I get back to a lot of question asking for JF: (?) I mentioned and talked to (?) yourself. If you’re an artist or a leader last night. And she’s for an oral histotrying to make change happen. And ry project that taking place at Douglas So yeah I think it’s a complicated question, because I think there’s stopping yourself asking yourself (Sunder?) So yeah I think it’s aand complicated question, because I think there’s or in case ? (35?) years ago no one, there’s not one formula you can follow that works every questions around like what if a resident they got (?) who engaging students to go no one, there’s not one formula you can follow that works every time, every place. of theevery neighborhood comes to me who I into an oral history project (with their?) time, place. haven’t talked to about this yet. And they community tell their story abundantly. ask me to explain this project, would I African American neighborhood probfeel proud about the way they're going ably won’t have that history written into about it? I just hold my head up high it. but it was written by a teacher and the and explain why they come to the table. teacher let the project hands in the air. And if they haven’t heard about it, why and sometimes (?) can be picked up in And that question of ownership And that question of ownership And that question of ownership

And that question of ownership


Art.


10

some way. but we move to the question, why we want an artist to be engaged in creating a community? I mean I would probably want to be, but why an artist? What does an artist bring to this whole thing that is so unique that (?) is cultivating (?)

LP: Art is like way that we connect to

each other as people and it breaks down barriers and it threads the (fabric?) of communication and expression. I see myself, I have benefited personally from art in terms of like self exploration and discovery, personally, there’s that aspect of it that can be brought to a project. but there’s also the creativity and new ways of thinking, new ideas, they’re passionate relation, and thinking about how that works in a community setting, and that what you have, things all coming together around a shared goal, initiative and things being created. Learning how to work together, perhaps, maybe there’s a community project that is bringing neighbors together and residents together. And the process of working together can be huge and something people may not be as familiar with. I think the word art can be a scary word to people who are not in the art world. And so seeing the they can’t be artists, I bear to the wind that everyone can be artists and everyone can be creative and that’s a core component of the community and our souls, so being able to bring people in-or experts and tap into that can do a lot for people’s beings. and as a being of this community, the (?) of the community but also the idea that (?) behind. It’s a source of joy or remembrance of something that happened. whether its

history or we put that thing together or that community garden over there it’s not only (?) but I’m proud of it, and I’m proud of my community because of how it looks, aesthetics and- or it was a performance of some sorts that happened, I mean I feel like (?) do that, it’s human. Let’s get back to the question over there,— LM: (?) I think for folks working in situations where things are thought of as ‘problems’ (?) asset gapes sort of management to initiative. How do we celebrate a culture? How do we fix something that’s broken, you know, just this whole sort of idea of creative practice and how people (?) approach things and I think, I mean I like—this is where i start to sound a little crazy, not crazy but, just very kind of over the top, i mean, if we look at like the history of humanity, we’ve always had shaman and magic, i mean artists have been part of the community for so long and we go back to that as artists as sort of maker of magic and place. It helps change the way people sort of think about that, so, I mean.. Yeah.

JF: I love that idea of artists as haha “fire-starter”.

LP: But there’s this sort of idea in our

modern-day, we have art as like separate. over here. versus, you look back at the history of humans and art was, whatever we call art now, storytelling, dance and music, visual arts and (professional?) writing, that was all just part of society and the way people interacted again with each other and formed community.


that thing together y garden over there ut I’m proud of it, and ommunity because of hetics and- or it was a ome sorts that I feel like (?) do that, get back to the question

or folks working in hings are thought of as t gapes sort of nitiative. How do ture? How do we fix broken, you know, rt of idea of creative people (?) approach k, I mean I like—this is ound a little crazy, not y kind of over the top, at like the history of lways had shaman and ists have been part of r so long and we go ists as sort of maker e. It helps change the f think about that, so, I

ea of artists as haha

his sort of idea in our ave art as like separate. you look back at the s and art was, whatever orytelling, dance and and (professional?) all just part of society le interacted again nd formed community.

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How do we celebrate a culture?

of humanity, we’ve always How do we celebrate a

had shaman and magic, I

culture? How do we fix

mean artists have been part

something that’s broken

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and we go back to that as

artists as sort of maker of

magic and place


11

and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there. but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. you know i was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—

LM: And of culture too, it’s the cultural barriers of the community. so the dance or the culturally based craft making or sewing that people do together or the cooking that people do i mean it’s all—

JF: It’s an interesting thing (?) a lot of

time when we look at immigrant labor and you see the people who do the groups and all that stuff, you look deeper and you find that some of these people are actually brought some crafts with them because they have no outlet for it. there’s no (?) industries in Mexico or Central America, you practice this art form, you where one of the few that did it, and now, you come here and you’re removed and that’s all you do. I wanna mention—

Participant: Yeah, I’m just backing up

to this question about as artists, how do we’re not (?) participating in— an outside (?) taking an approach, and I think a very pragmatic question asked, whoever’s

commissioning you or reaching out to you, what kind of community engagement has been done around this project, which leads you to a very specific question for yourself. Was I a (member?) when those questions and, you know, engagements took place, was I with the residents when these community engagement sessions took place? And if the answer is no, then clearly that isn’t a project we should be jumping into yet

?: Or should we be engaging them as an

artist, in a creative way to bring people to that (place?) I think sometimes you gotta (?) so say there’s a fire. Does anybody else have a question before—

Participant: Well, I also meant to

sort of add to both of these things, like I think that artists, beyond building communities, they see value where others don’t, right? They see an empty space and see something magical, um useful, and in this question of how artists participate and try to decipher if it’s a partnership worth going forward, I always think about, for me personally like where is the money going to if partners are so valuable? Are we employing artists of all kind to do this kind of work, to do this community work? I think it’s really important, particularly when entering communities of color and working with partners of color. So I don’t know, I throw it back to think through that, cause I just think about - where’s the money trickling into.

LP: In terms of challenges I think we find in the work is that this takes a lot


creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sittin who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of som sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our cul with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artis in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creat and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who yo creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painti you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organi people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an a a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and mayb and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort o on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture wh and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think th culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neig have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have th storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in them also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical inform in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in w informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not fam experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many p maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed the are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, an neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in ther artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who yo creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sittin who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of som sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our cul with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artis in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creat and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who yo creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painti you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organi people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an a a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and mayb and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort o on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture wh and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think th culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neig have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have th storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in them also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical inform in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in w informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not fam experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many p maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed the are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, an neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in ther artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who yo creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sittin who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of som sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our cul with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artis in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creat and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who yo creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painti you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organi people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an a a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and mayb and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort o on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think there are so many people in our culture wh and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neighborhoods who you may never have guessed sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or—and uh, expressed their humanness. and so I think th culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are artists everywhere, and there are people in neig have guessed are doing an art discipline of some sort or multiple. You know I was sitting on an airplane and a mailman who’s doing a painting a night at home and people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers or— and and so I think there are so many people in our culture who are maybe not familiar with art and maybe bring experts in who know it and organize, critical informant who help people discover what’s in themselves that’s in there, but there’s also this, there are

there are artists everywhere people who you never would guess who have this creative expression, or storytellers


12

of time to do work in a way is really— I mean we’re talking about intentional (inclusive?) that it could take years to do and it can be challenging to find the funding to support something like that and to really be able to pay people to do the work and whatever (?) the best you can and there are certainly lots of (?) who are focusing on that but making that a question and looking for opportunities of work partnering with people with resources or with resources that understand that and helping articulate that to them or explain like (?) the process of what your project would look like is that it might take X number of months or years to do this and here’s what we’re going to be doing in Y (?) we try to get the funding to support it. But that is a challenge that we have too—

LM: And and some of the work that’s

going on with this, ya know, we have full time artists working as community organizers and their getting paid to be part of the CNC or program of the CNC so, uh, there are ways to do it. I think the other question comes into play when we ask people to come engage in the process, what is the value of their time and their expertise as well, so for working community, if we’re asking residents to participate up to a certain point because we know their experts on the community then are we, ya know, where is the tipping point in terms of their expertise being valued with money? ya know, where’s the tipping point, we can’t pay for every community (?) process everyone to come but there are moments when we rely on certain people and start (?) at that point

where’s the line? so, question—

JF: I think one instance of, so you have,

on the federal level you have investment that’s kind of directed at enterprise (?) then you also have engagement for the city’s point of view, then you have engagement from the community itself, so there’s all these competing things, uh, and there may be very different visions of what that is so I’m gonna go back to this thing about “intention”, how do you know what the right intentions are, what are, what are things that makes up intentions?…. See I’ve upset you

LP: Think about it, I mean, I don’t

know… For me it comes back to a real core sense of like doing right by everyone, and that, then limits them to values around equity, and respect, um and inclusion and ya know starts with like, build it out, but for me that just (?) we’re all in this together, we’re trying to do right by each other, i mean that really inner drive and respect for each other ands building a community of value, and the humbleness that comes with that, and you can say, just because I have skills in a certain area, I’m not any better than others, I mean I use that as a resource and tool. JF: There seems to be an ethical base for the interaction when it comes to the arts, that we normally expect sometimes, I think that bottom lines make a difference, (?) your bottom line is not necessarily ethical considerations primarily, they may be doing good for most while not doing good for all, (?) they’re gonna expect that from a


of time to do work in a way is really— where’s the line? so, question— I mean we’re talking about intentional (inclusive?) that it could take years to JF: I think one instance of, so you have, do and it can be challenging to find the on the federal level you have investment funding to support something like that that’s kind of directed at enterprise (?) and to really be able to pay people to then you also have engagement for the do the work and whatever (?) the best city’s point of view, then you have enyou can and there are certainly lots of gagement from the community itself, so (?) who are focusing on that but making there’s all these competing things, uh, that a question and looking for and there may be very different visions opportunities of work partnering with of what that is so I’m gonna go back to people with resources or with resources this thing about “intention”, how do you that understand that and helping know what the right intentions are, what articulate that to them or explain like (?) are, what are things that makes up intenthe process of what your project would tions?…. See I’ve upset you look like is that it might take X number of months or years to do this and here’s LP: Think about it, I mean, I don’t LP: Think about it, I mean, I don’t know… For me it comes back to a real core sense of doing right by what we’re going to be doing in Y (?) we know… For me it comes back to a real everyone, and that, then limits them to values around equity, and respect, and inclusion and ya know try to get the funding to support it. But core sense of like doing right by starts with like, build it out, but for me that just we’re all in this together, we’re trying to do right by that is a challenge that we have too— everyone, and that, then limits them to each other, i mean that really inner drive and respect for each other ands building a community of values around equity, and respect, um value, and the humbleness that comes with that, and you can say, just because I have skills in a certain LM: And and some of the work that’s and inclusion and ya know starts with area, I’m not any better than others, I mean I use that as a resource and tool. going on with this, ya know, we have full like, build it out, but for me that just (?) time artists working as we’re all in this together, we’re trying to community organizers and their getting do right by each other, i mean that really paid to be part of the CNC or program inner drive and respect for each other of the CNC so, uh, there are ways to do ands building a community of value, and it. I think the other question comes into the humbleness that comes with that, play when we ask people to come and you can say, just because I have skills engage in the process, what is the value in a certain area, I’m not any better than of their time and their expertise as well, others, I mean I use that as a resource so for working community, if we’re and tool. asking residents to participate up to a certain point because we know their JF: There seems to be an ethical base for experts on the community then are we, the interaction when it comes to the arts, ya know, where is the tipping point in that we normally expect sometimes, I terms of their expertise being valued think that bottom lines make a with money? ya know, where’s the difference, (?) your bottom line is not tipping point, we can’t pay for every necessarily ethical considerations community (?) process everyone to come primarily, they may be doing good for but there are moments when we rely on most while not doing good for all, (?) certain people and start (?) at that point they’re gonna expect that from a

doing right by everyone

respect for each other and building a community of value, and humbleness


Art & Community.


14

community aspect (?) is there a way we can actively engage.

LM: So with the program we have, we have a grant from the (crisis?) foundation that focus around racial equity, you know, inclusion, all that.

LM: So, how do we strengthen that

organization? And take on moral issues around community developments and they’re doing that intentionally in their own anyway? But they have a residency program where they actually bring guys in from the outside and work in that neighborhood. There’s this great program called the people’s paper cooperative. Where, um, the artist came in and was really interested in um folks coming in and reentering out of prison and work with a group of women to create this expungement plan, they do expungement plans in Philadelphia where people after being incarcerated take their records and expunge them and they walk away. They were actually doing physical things with those records. They were re-making paper with them; pulping the paper and having the women write their own news stories about their visions for the future, that artist left, he wasn’t part of the community, but left this project and now is been picked up by the community and the women that were in the program so I think it’s things like that where the organization itself is very intentional, it’s very rudimentary but also wants to bring in a different point of view that might actually inform work and I think it’s that kind of dialogue. Another example in Philadelphia is another organization

called “soy Puerto Rican” we just invested 2 million dollars in build a cultural center but it was 10 years worth of work to get them to a place where they were ready for that building but they’ve been there for 40 years too. So I think it’s how you cultivate the assets that are within first and foremost but then not being totally afraid of bringing people from outside in but it has to be done with the support of an organization that understands their neighborhood or artists in that neighborhood that understands the neighborhood or the community organizer, organizing a partnership with the community or organizing a base organization that understands the issues so I think is really uh one or the other but it can be both together, I have a problem when it’s just outside coming in. Yeah I think is both, sometimes in the conversation we can get into thinking, everything beats from this one inner circle. At least in a city like Saint Louis we can be servants and not even realize it with the neighborhoods and also within the region. I also forget to look up and out and see what’s happening in Kansas City and what’s happening in Chicago and what’s happening somewhere else from whatever distance we’re talking about from within but being very mindful to be inclusive and having things being driven by the people that are the most affected by what’s going on. And that they should put a voice in that and that um that is something that takes 10-12 years for that project doesn’t make a lot of sense to me a lot of times the things that happen.


So, how do we strengthen that organization? And take on moral issues around community developments and th

So I think it’s how you cultivate the assets that are within first and foremost but then not being totally afraid of bringing people from outside in but it has to be done with the support of an organization neighborhood that understands the neighborhood or the community organizer, organizing a partnership with the communit I think is really uh one or the other but it can be both together, I have a problem when it’s just outside coming in.


15

JF: That makes me think about stuff

so you’re trying to identify into which community you want to go into, so how long is that process? You guys invest a lot. So I say to my community how does that come about in an organization likes yours where you are putting artists as the main thing?

LM: Right right, so we’re only 4 years

in so i say we’re still figuring that out honestly and so what we did for the first time on 3 years, so the program I’m running has been around for almost 20 years so we have about 350 people in the region that have been through the program and that are doing work actively in the region and so we are able to identify critical massive graduates of the program, people who are living or working or otherwise heavily invested in our neighborhoods and have been through our programs so they knew what it was about and they were great resources to reach out to, to say is this relevant and to make connections and to make decision with the community. The process was a lot faster in those neighborhoods and it’s only now we sort off done the loafing through. And it also was a good partner for us to start testing this model and get some feedback if this is really working and what works and what needs to be changed. So now we’re looking at the other neighborhoods that we don’t have that critical mass in and so uh this year what we did we actually changed the way that we run the place based institute, this neighborhood based institute rather than having one neighborhood with 16 people from it we were recognizing that we did not

yet have the relationships built in other neighborhoods to really make a decision if this is right? to do a deep dive in this neighborhood. So we identified 4 neighborhoods that had come up through sourcing our alumni and the relationships we had and by 4 people from each of those neighborhoods to come in. We did a hybridized version where we have this regional model so we did like place space theme within 4 places so it could be a regional focus and through that we are getting some feedback from them on how it’s all working and would this be relevant in your neighborhood and like could we come there in the future and so now we would have people there that would help us within and so it’s like a multi-step process for us getting it to that and even beyond that, years of the conversationing.

JF: It’s interesting because your model is very specific in St. Louis and is a national model. So I’m wondering, you talk about what specific obstacles with each one of you would maybe overlap, I’m not sure but maybe mentioning the obstacle we’ll find out similarities.

LP: I think every community is

different and every community has similar issues so I think that’s kind of an obstacle that sometimes goes back to the question of government. Maria Rosario Jackson is part of a senior advisor of arts and culture and did a lot of research for the urban institute 15 years ago. She talks about the time it takes to do the work and kind of touching on in a little bit but one my frustrations being the government


It’s

interesting

because

your model is very specific I think every community is different and every community has similar issues so I think that’s kind of an obstacle that sometimes goes back to the question of government.

in

St.

Louis

national

and

model.

So

is

a I’m

wondering, you talk about what

specific

obstacles

with each one of you would maybe overlap, I’m not sure but maybe mentioning the obstacle

we’ll

similarities.

find

out


16

would, every 4 years you have administration change and every 4 years there’s an urgency to get stuff done based on a political schedule, based on a re-election schedule. So you would have folks rushing to try to finish work or start work and not having time to talk about it when in fact planning department has been working on that neighborhood for 20 years and they have been involved for 15. And the kind of push and pull of the political outcome becomes kind of really unsettling and you know because of organizations like that and organizations like the lisp you have that based on continuance that are pretty steady and now and then there’s like a lot of other political stuff that we could talk about for hours but as long as you have that continuing and moving steady moving forward that’s going on the right direction. And you have that tension on the cities government, changing their mind, changing focus; I’m all over the place right now but I think that’s a challenge but I think is also local community work. You know, we had in one city I won’t say which one it was but we developed an agency that it’s really well respected by the community and its economic outcomes it’s what we’ve been looking for. And they’re working in a neighborhood that’s very disinvested, historically African-American it used to be a very violent for ground of a neighborhood and the agency came into the neighborhood and they start using urban tacticleism and using other techniques you know, let’s decide just ourselves and paint this intersection because it’ll add a beautiful vibrancy to

the neighborhood and that’s what creative place making is! And then working with other organizations, entrepreneur sort of organizations that came out of a reaction founded people by color reaction gentrifying the area. People who live there are not benefiting from the economic change in a positive way so they started working on building skill sets doing skill sets workshops for entrepreneurs who were of color from that neighborhood and it really starts to be a great program and we developed a tactic with that organization that brings in neighborhood based entrepreneurs and we looked at what was going on then. And then you got and entrepreneurial organization of people of color of what they put together on their own and we support that moving forward and we kind of take that model from that organization and going into the community and going and actually cultivating and how we can be a part of it and together through a design process that we brought in to help them figure things out, they’ve really been able to bring in more residents into the conversation to help make those decisions and what needs to happen on that quarter and through 16 different strategies they’re working together but it was a real shift and a real challenge to involve people that were already in the neighborhood and not just bringing in kids to kind of do cool things. As a trained artist I get to say that haha.

Participant: A question that I would

have is: if you’re an artist, how do you know that you are partnering with the folks doing the intent that they want and


People who live there are not benefitting from the economic change in a positive way.

They're working together but it was a real shift and challenge to involve people already in the neighborhood and not just bringing in kids to kind of do cool things.


17

not being taken advantage of and that you’re not just being brought in to do something that’s not community endorsed or not co-designed?

LP: I think everyone doing this work

regardless of how far along they are, they are doing it with really good intentions but sometimes there needs to be that extra kind of solution. I think it’s a complicated question; there’s not a formula that can work every time that can work for everyone. I guess I kinda get back to a lot of question asking for yourself if you’re an artist or a leader. I’ll ask myself a lot of questions, like why haven’t people talked about this yet? I ask them to explain this project, you know, do I feel proud about the way they’re going about it? Can I hold my head up high and explain why they care about it, are they getting the message? (?)

Participant: I think a really good

question is what will happen when the project’s over? Because there’s that sense of, “Is it something that the community wanted so much that they’re coming in and they’re deciding what’s happen with it” or is it something that’s going to be a burden, or something that’ll cause problems in other ways and it kinda helps for people to shift back that bigger picture.

LP: Question of ownership. Started

something before it’s over, there’s gonna be an exit at some point, like nothing lasts forever. So, where does it go? Are they already involved?

JP: I was talking to a student? of mine,

about one of her oral history projects over in Kansas City, Kansas that I heard about years ago and how they had to engage with communities with their families and how African-American neighborhood and how the history was written into it, and the teacher left the project kind of up in the air, so I think it will be picked up. (?) But it still leaves the question, why do you want the artist to be engaged within the community? I mean, I know why, but what does the artist bring, what

LP: Art is like the way that we connect

to each other as people and break barriers and communication and expression. I see myself as benefiting personally from art and myself exploration, discovery as a person there’s that aspect of it that can be brought to a project in terms of the results of creativity, there’s thinking, there’s new ideas, there’s passion and motivation. I mean, thinking about how that works in a community setting and that when you have people coming together around a shared goal or initiative, and I guess being creative and learning how to work together perhaps maybe as a community project—that’s bringing neighbors together and residents together and the process of working together I think can be huge and I think that some people may not be as familiar with. I think the word art can be a scary word to people who are not in the art world.

Participant: Criminal justice grant

build police and community relations


to be engaged within the community? I mean, I know why, but what does the artist bring it still leaves the question, why do you want the artist to be engaged within the community? I mean, I know why, but what does the artist bring

what will happen when the project’s over?

I think a really good question is what will happen when the project’s over? Because there’s that sense of, “Is it something that the community wanted so much that they’re coming in and they’re deciding what’s happenining    with it”

or

or is it something that’s going to be a burden, something that’ll cause problems in other ways and it kinda helps for people to shift back that bigger picture.

Do I feel proud about the way they’re going about it? Can I hold my head up high and explain why they care about it, are they getting the message? that’s bringing neighbors together and residents together and the process of working together I think can be huge and I think that some people may not be as familiar with. Art is like the way that we connect to each other as people and break barriers and communication and expression.

there’s not a formula that can work every time, that can work for everyone

Art is like the way that we connect to each other as pe and break barriers and communication and expression myself as bene ting personally from art and my self exp discovery as a person there’s that aspect of it that can b to a project in terms of the results of creativity, there’s there’s new ideas, there’s passion and motivation. I me thinking about how that works in a community setting that when you have people coming together around a goal or initiative, and I guess being creative and learnin work together perhaps maybe as a community project bringing neighbors together and residents together an


18

an easy fix and policing was better but it wasn’t satiating the community so a lot of the grant went to jobs initiatives and capacity to make associations come back to the question to how do we get the other side of the (?) with power coming in and capitol coming in and energy coming in and moving everyone east, how do you cultivate that beforehand and how do you get to the real source of culture in the way people want to express it as opposed of using art as a way to bring culture?

LM: And that’s what we’re kind of

trying to touch on (?) in Philadelphia the thing was to get a grant to hire arts community to neighborhood two neighborhoods focusing that formed these arts and cultures committees in the service areas feeds into neighborhood plans (?) It’s very involved and it’s a an rip process and one neighborhood is pushing up against another industrial, um, industrial, very much like this, with the industrial buildings around, and industrial building issues, in some situations that are similar to this one, where there’s a lot of sort of cleaner businesses coming in that are not going to have the same kind of job impact in that neighborhood. In very urban areas it’s not really about the people that live there and (?) there are not a lot of community organizing voice in these conversations, it’s at the city level, decisions are being made, at the advocacy level, the plans are being made and so the artists more than ever do a very simple thing and started talking to neighbors and staring working with the youth organizations and they’ve

created this thing of beauty that’s all over the place and it’s like picnic tables and like this it could be people comment o have dinner and people coming in to do something cool was that the artist came together to come and meet each other and what’s happening there is this dialogue is starting and this coalition is building together over having it support being involved in the decisions being made in that neighborhood and it’s (?) that total the artist s better what the outcome of that, we don’t know yet, but did it do something? Yes it did. Is it going to be this giant infrastructure thing that’s going to like change the face of it? No.

JF: For what’s artists come in and

activist (?) people who have been in gate (?) so what do you guys think of the, like how do you perceive kind of suffered and displaced so and so how do you perceive and I’m not attacking you specifically.

LM: I could talk more to this and what

happens about site control. Artists are going into these buildings that no one else wants to be in and making improvements and they are changing the face of the building, and they’re actually giving back, because they’re building the community around them and valuing that and it’s not about the having gallery, it’s people in the gallery and inhabiting that space and in building that have been abandoned and I think, it’s how do artist work through traditional systems when artists get site control of places, and they put a stake in the ground or whatever and start moving forward, and we have the situation handled, and we


Participant:

And that’s what we’re kind of trying to touch on (?) in Philadelphia the thing was to get a grant to hire arts community to neighborhood how do you get to the real source of culture two neighborhoods focusing that in the way people want to express it as opposed of formed these arts and cultures using art as a way to bring culture? committees in the service areas feeds into neighborhood plans (?) It’s very involved and it’s a an rip process and one neighborhood is pushing up against another industrial, um, industrial, very much like this, with the industrial buildings around, and industrial building issues, in some situations that are similar to this one, where there’s a lot of sort of cleaner businesses coming in that are not going to have the same kind of job impact in that neighborhood. an easy fix and policing was better but it wasn’t satiating the community so a lot of the grant went to jobs initiatives and capacity toand make associations to the question to how do we get theeast, otherhow sidedoofyou the cultivate (?) with power coming in capitol comingcome in andback energy coming in and moving everyone that beforehand and how do you get to the real source of culture in the way people want to express it as opposed of using art as a way to bring culture?

LM:

And that’s what we’re kind of trying to touch on (?) ............ ...................??????????????????????? in Philadelphia the thing was to get grant tointo hire these arts community to that neighborhood two neighborhoods focusing that Artists area going buildings formed theseno artsone andelse cultures committees themaking service areas feeds into neighborhood plans (?) It’s very inwants to be ininand improvements volved and it’s a an rip process and one neighborhood is pushing up against another industrial, um, industrial, and they are changing the face of the building, and they're actually very much like this, with thebecause industrial buildings around, and industrial building issues, in some situations that giving back, they're building the community around them and valuing that and it's not about having gallery,

It's the people in the gallery and inhabiting that space and inthere buildings came together to come and meet each other and what’s happening is this dialogue is starti coalition is building together over having it support being involved in the decisions being made that have been abandoned borhood and it’s (?) that total the artist s better what the outcome of that, we don’t know yet, but did it do something? Yes it did. Is it going to be this giant infrastructure thing that’s going to like change the face of it? No.

how do artists work through JF: For what’s artists come in andsystems activist (?) people who have been traditional when so what do you guys think of the, like how do you perceive kind of suffered and displaced so and artists get siteyoucontrol you perceive and I’m not attacking specifically.of places,

??????????????????????????????? so what do you guys think of the, like how do you perceive kind of suffered and displaced so and so how do you perceive and I’m not at

they put a stake in the ground or whatever no and start moving one else wants to be in andforward, making improvements and they are changing the face of the buildin actually giving back, because they’re building the community around them and valuing that and and we have the situation the having gallery, it’s people in the gallery and inhabiting that space and in building that have b handled, and we were just doned and I think, it’s how do artist work through traditional systems when artists get site contr last in night how and they talking put a stake the about ground or whatever and start moving forward, and we have the situat tax stabilizations made it so and we were just talking last night about how tax we could own the building you would put on a building and then t through policy

LM: I could talk more to this and what happens about site control. Artists are going into these

changes at a local government level for


19

were just talking last night about how tax stabilizations made it so we could own the building you would put on a building and then tax it again and then do through policy changes at a local government level for zoning for different uses but um, artist shouldn’t be afraid to ask for the same kinds of deals that developers get, they should see themselves as developers themselves and learn how to up trial estate in right now because, you know, these processes are very complex and what was buildings downtown the first building they (?) in the city and in the second building (?) they got the building up and running, and then there’s another organization that bought an old school yard and took the whole thing older and took it (?) space and how do we train artist to take that on.

LM: You have to own the building,

you’re not just renting it, you don’t just want to make it better, you get to a certain level and its to the point where we don’t, I remember when I was growing up I was managing these organizations, and they were renting, and we were opening a gallery and we were really downing it and taking down walls, and there was this guy laughing at it because he knew that within four or five years they were going to be different and the building wouldn’t stay and he knew that.

JF: When people were moving to

the crossroads, someone told me, like, hey man, you need to try to buy the buildings (?).

Developer: So about Kansas City, and we’re talking about Kansas City (?) and

when we’re talking about it we get this unique experience of (?) so, if the proceeds went back to the neighborhood, but that’s like trying to be Michael Jordan, so let’s get back to the issue at hand, which is what we can do in Kansas City. So, (?) developers who are willing to work in transitional areas to improve those neighborhoods and start to give back, (?) so what skills can artist give to that that we can use, to help people that are in those situations? And I think that’s pressing (?) will go over just as much, how can we, I’m meeting on Friday with the Kansas City Art Institute, to see how we can utilize some of our, buildings, (?) we’re based off Troost, and advertised as (?) like for artists to come and and we have extra space and then, um, but like these skills, I mean we can build houses. They advertised for artists to come and workout that extra space. no interest. But we need skills. I’m starting to build houses in Mannheim and be the first houses built in (Mannheim?) That with market rate. That for people who can afford, have a job, have an education, and can afford a market rate house. We did that in Longfield. and they laughed at us, the neighborhood laughed at us, and when we came in we built houses. They were twice as expensive as any other house that were sold in Mannheim in 40 years and all of them sold. And now in Lincoln Hill we did the same thing there. I put art in every project that we do. And I would hire artists if they had some skills that we could employ in building these houses but the problem is that we don’t most artists that are coming out of school today, have the


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Artist shouldn't be afraid to ask for the same kinds of deals that developers get, they should see themselves as developers themselves

were just talking last night about how tax stabilizations made it so we could own the building you would put on a building and then tax it again and then do through policy changes at a local government level for zoning for different uses but um, artist shouldn’t be afraid to ask for the same kinds of deals that developers get, they should see themselves as developers themselves and learn how to up trial estate in right now because, you know, these processes are very complex and what was buildings downtown the first building they (?) in the city and in the second building (?) they got the building up and running, and then there’s another organization that bought an old school yard and took the whole thing older and took it (?) space and how do we train artist to take that on.

LM: You have to own the building, you’re not just renting it, you don’t just want to make it better,

you get to a certain level and its to the point where we don’t, I remember when I was growing up I was managing these organizations, and they were renting, and we were opening a gallery and we were really taking down walls, and there was this guy laughing at it because he knew that within four or five years they were going to be different and the building wouldn’t stay and he knew that. JF: When people were moving to the crossroads, someone told me, like, hey man, you need to try to buy the buildings (?)))))))???????????........................... Developer: So about Kansas City, and we’re talking about Kansas City (?) and when we’re talking about we get this they put a stake in the ground oritwhatever andunique start mov experience of (?) so, if the proceeds forward, and we have the situation handled, and we were just ta went backmade to the night about how tax stabilizations it so we could own the neighborhood, but that’s like changes you would put on a building and then t through policy trying to be a local government level for zoning forMichael differentJordan, uses so let’s get back to the issue at hand, which is what we can do in Kansas City. So, (?) developers who are willing to work in transitional areas to improve those neighborhoods and start to give back, (?) so what skills can artist give to that we can use, to help people that are in those situations? And I think that’s pressing (?) will go over just as much, how can we, I’m meeting on Friday with the Kansas City Art Institute, to see how we can utilize some of our, buildings, (?) we’re


20

skills that they learned or grew up with to be artists so when you ask them (interruption) so I can employee artists the have skills to help build the houses. I can employee artists that can do landscaping. I can employee artists, for instance, I just hired Madeline Galluci to do the art at 63rd and Brookside, and Jorge Garcia has created art for me that both at 63rd and Brookside and 29th and Gillham. So we can do all of that, but this for instance needs to get a return on the money that they put out. Where does the return come from? It only comes from building something that somebody’s going to want to buy.

JF: I think it goes but one of the things

I’ve to believe as an artists. I will (?) to me that’s a very inclusive and diverse community. And that type of community where the artists holds the role to decorate it and it’s also a community where the artists. (I slowly disagree when I hear people say?) Well what does he know about this? This is politics this is business. You’re an artist. Well grew up in a society, my cultural history and inspiration, know that latin American societies (?) and an artists is not the person that’s concised with certain role. The artist is actually involved in so many other areas in the community. They’re politicians, they’re diplomats, they’re sociologists, philosophers. They’re engaged in the community beyond the tangible structures of the community, and okay so for me I think that’s kind of the thing we’re talking about. I think artists that are getting involved in this kind of work, are trying to maneuver but also create community and that one of

the places that I think about that little drummer on 31st and Troost between over by (Matt Dumer?) there’s a lot of young artists coming in from the Art Institute that want to own their own business. They want to be basically their own bosses. They want to find out okay here I am coming out. How do I reach out to other artists and maybe not other artists what other things in this community could I reach out to and so they came and talked to me and I said well writers don’t (?) And we have history of them and we make a book. There’s (?) old traditions that nobody invested in. Perhaps, that’s the way to do it and that is not an investment of money of money coming back. It’s an investment in creativity it’s an investment in your community it’s an investment in new and new things that I think create more beyond the tangible structure that we know of I think that’s where I would say I’d come from.

Participant: Yeah, well, I would like

to specifically address, you know as a young, I think there would be a really interesting invitation to mail out and say help you design different models ownership of parts of other than market rate firm buildings in places that are. Cause it’s like how well, we were talking last night about, you know, would you be interested as a developer in kind of discovering how, so that there could be a way of maintaining income diversity and racial Diversity and kinds of things that people do across neighborhoods and reversing the trends of gentrification path that’s happening in other cities. Because if you’d be interested in doing


So we can do all of that, but this for instance needs to get a return on the money So we can do all of that, but this that they put out. Where does the return come from? It only comes from building for instance needs to get a return something that somebody’s going to want to buy. on the money that they put out. I think it goes but one of the things I have to believe as Where does the return come an artists. I will ?? to me that’s a very inclusive and diverse from? It only comes from building community. And that type of community where the artists something that somebody’s going holds the role to decorate it and it’s also a comWell what does he know about this? This is politics this is business. to want to buy. You’re an artist. Well I grew up in a society, my cultural history and inspiration, know that latin American societies ain role. The artist is actually involved in so

many other areas in the community.

They’re politicians, they’re diplomats, they’re sociologists, philosophers. They’re engaged in the community beyond the tangible structures of the community,

and okay so

fokay here I am coming

“They’re engaged in the community beyond the tangible structures of the community..”

out. How do I reach out to other artists and maybe not other artists what other things in this community could I reach out to and so they came and talked to me and I said well writers don’t ?? And we have history of them and we make a book. There’s ??? old traditions that

nobody invested in. Perhaps, that’s the way to do it and that is not an “It’s an investment in creativity it’s investment of money of coming back. It’s an investment in your community money an investment in creativity it’s an investment in new and new it’s an investment in your community it’s an things that I think create more investment in new and beyond the tangible structure.” new things that I think

Participant:

Would you be interested as a developer in kind of discovering how, so that there could be a way ofmaintainingincomediversity and racial diversity and kinds of things that people do across neighborhoods and reversing the trends of gentrification path that’s happening in other cities.


21

that I know there are others who’d be interested in helping you be innovative in that way because that’s what we care about. We care about that kind of diversity and it’s very important.

put the word out there and artists come and have this space, if you just fix up the space.

Developer: Well I think we do have

Developer: Hugh Merril’s the only one

diversity. Every project that we do we try to be inclusive of the neighborhood. The building we’re building right now down on Troost and people think we’re crazy for building down there. But we’re going to make that impact and we’re going to involve the neighborhood and I’m meeting with the Art Institute next week to try to get what’d you’d call a post graduate program where somebody with a masters or PhD will work with the young BFA students who are just coming up in studio, and then engage the neighborhood to help fulfill the work. But here’s what it really comes down to, I hate to say this, but it’s money. It is money and developers, money just doesn’t just fall out of the sky, and I’m trying to develop on Troost and I can’t make the numbers work on the rents that we’ve been trying to get to build the buildings. so who do you turn to? You turn to this, Liz, and they have programs, you could turn to other people but at the end of the day you have to have some skills that you can bring to the neighborhood. That will improve the neighborhood, and you have to be willing to come into some of these neighborhoods and live in a house that needs to get fixed up and you might have to pay a low amount of money for and then spend everything to fix it up. I own the entire block of 55th and Troost and I’ve owned it for eight years, and I’ve

JF: I’ll take you up on that! that’s said he would do it.

JF: That’s an interesting point, but I want to get Michael.

Michael(?): The question is, I hear

what’s being said, and I agree with it a lot. I think it is about money, but I think it’s also about investment with that money, and the risk, and the risk versus the activity. That’s when we begin to solve a problem towards ways in which all these different organizations and schools would approach these problems. Because I think artists have a very basic point, and a very unknown outcome. You know, they’re willing to take risks with an unknown outcome. If you give an artist a problem, they want to give you an outcome, regardless. So, if you’re working with a government worker, someone who does not have either the willingness to take that risk or, um, ya know, working ability, you want a very specific plan. You will know exactly what that outcome is going to be. So I think there’s a difference in the process that could be brought to the table. For anybody, my guess here is that in the projects we are working with, is there a specific outcome? Do the people we are working with know what that outcome is, no. All we know is what the problem is. Because that could fail big time, but it could also


I hate to say this, but it’s money. It is money and developers, money just doesn’t just fall out of the                    sky Well I think we do have diversity. Every project that we do we try to be inclusive of the neighborhood. The building we’re But we’re going to make that impact and we’re going to involve the neighborhood and I’m meeting with the Art Institute next week to try to get what’d you’d call a post gradudents who are just c engage the neighborhood to help fulfil the work. ut here’s what it “We’re going to make that really comes down to, I impact and we’re going to involve the neighborhood.” hate to say this, but it’s money. It is money and developers, money just doesn’t just fall out of the sky,o who do you turn to? you turn to LISC and they have programs. you could turn to other people but at the end of the day you have to have some skills that you can bring to the neighborhood.

“Because I think artists have a very basic point, and a very unknown outcome. If you give an artist a problem, they want to give you an outcome, regardless.”


22

be really cool. That’s something that I’m still crossing over here.

P2: I think that part of what he’s saying

honestly, is that it depends on the region. We need to be able to recognize that and do that exploration together. And talk more about progress and less about the end result, because the process is so much more important than the outcome. The fact is that it turns into a partnership with people in the community asking questions. What is the question here? What’s the question we’re trying to resolve? Are we doing this together? We need to all be married to the process and not necessarily married to the end point. Otherwise we don’t go into it together, and that’s something that we really need to talk about. Having fun. We need to be able to take the time and energy to ask those questions, and those are questions we need to be asking ourselves. And yes, absolutely if we aren’t hearing from people in the community, it will get awkward. You know, why not go back and look at the people first. We need people to talk to in order to generate those ideas. We need to take steps back in order to move forward.

LP(?): I love this little white book

that the designers have here. And the conversation that we had today is that when you think about dialogue, it’s something we have all thought about. The dialogue there is more about the end, rather than the conversation that actually needs to be started. Other assumptions about having dialogues and issues with dialogue is that it involves

participants that actually want to participate. They need to know that they can participate. Does it involve some level of recognition that there are participants outside ourselves that may think in different ways? Are there things (the heart?) can do to sustain conditions?

LM(?): I’ve been a part of this a while

now. And we get to a point where we have a problem, and everybody comes rushing up. And the things they’re taking away provide a problem where it’s hard to take the next step. This program is about that next step. The people who aren’t here today, I’m gonna look around, there are many people not here. The people who are absent are the people who cannot express. People need to give their opinions, you know, we’ve had discussions where we’ve hit this wall. The idea and the beauty of this program is that there are planned next steps. So this conversation is about the first conversation, and it’s about the last conversation. We all have different views in some ways. But the idea is something imagined, now how do we get to that point where the people who think about it can actually start conversing about their thoughts? So, definitely that is welcome. We will get to it.

AK(?): With that in mind, um, I’m

gonna go ahead and say this isn’t the end of the conversation, as we mentioned. Um, we need to keep building on this. So, if there are things that we talked about today are important to you, and you think you want to build on, try to capture it on this sheet that I’m passing around. The original thought was that


Participant:

What is the question here? What’s the question we’re trying to resolve? Are we doing this together? We need to all be married to the process and not necessarily married to the end point. We need to be able to take the time and energy to ask those questions, and those are questions we need to be asking ourselves. And yes, absolutely if we aren’t hearing from people in the community, it will get awkward. You know, why not go back and look at the people first. We need people to talk to in order to generate those ideas. We need to take steps back in order to move forward. We need to take steps back in order to move forward. The process is so much more important than the outcome. ???qhaED2C????..///???????????? the question ??? What ? ?is ??? ? ? here?

“They need to know that they can participate.”

LM:

I’ve been a part of this a while now. And we get to a point where we have a problem, and everybody comes rushing up. And the things they’re taking away provide a problem where it’s hard to take the next step. is program be really cool. That’s something that I’m still crossing over here. is about that next step. The people who aren’t here today, I’m gonna P2: I think that part of what he’s saying honestly, is that it depends on the region. We need look to be able to recognize that around, there are many people not here. and do that exploration together. The people who are absent are the people And talk more about progress and less about the end result, because the process is so much cannot express. People need to give their more important thanwho the outcome. The fact is that it turns into a partnership with people in the opinions, you know, we’ve had discussions where community asking questions. What is the question here? What’s the question we’re trying we’ve hit thisWewall. The idea and theprocess beauty of to resolve? Are we doing this together? need to all be married to the and not necessarily this program is that there are planned next married to the end point. Otherwise steps. Sosomething this conversation the we don’t go into it together, and that’s that we really need to is talkabout about. Having fun. We need to be able to take the time and energy to ask those questions, and those are first conversation, and it’s about the last questions we need to be asking ourselves. And yes, Wecommunity, all haveit will different views in absolutely if we aren’tconversation. hearing from people in the get awkward. You know, why not go back and look at the people first. We need people to talk to in order to generate some ways. But the idea is something imagined, those ideas. We need to take steps back in order to move forward. now how do we get to that point where the people LP(?): I love this little white book who think about it can actually start conversing that the designers have here. And the conversation that we had today is that when you think about we their thoughts? So, about dialogue, it’s something have all thought about. Thedefinitely dialogue therethat is moreisabout the end, rather than the conversation that actually needs to be started. Other welcome. We will get to it. assumptions about having dialogues and issues with dialogue is that it involves participants that actually want to participate. They need to know that they can participate. Does it involve some level of recognition that there are participants outside ourselves that may think in different ways? Are there things (the heart?) can do to sustain conditions? LM(?): I’ve been a part of this a while now. And we get to a point where we have a problem, and everybody comes rushing up. And the things they’re taking away provide a problem where it’s hard to take the next step. This program is about that next step. The people who aren’t here today, I’m gonna look around, there are many people not here. The people who are absent are the people who cannot express. People need to give their opinions, you know, we’ve had discussions where we’ve hit this wall. this conversation is about the The idea and the beauty of this program is that there are planned next steps. firstis about conversation, and So this conversation the first conversation, andit’s it’s about the last conversation. We all have different views in some ways. But the idea is something imagined, now how do we about the last conversation... get to that point where the people who think about it can actually start conversing about their thoughts? So, definitely that is welcome. We will get to it. AK(?): With that in mind, um, I’m gonna go ahead and say this isn’t the end of the conversation, as we mentioned. Um, we need to keep building on this. So, if there are things

this isn’t the


23

the next conversation would be here in the Kansas City base. We have a series of case studies coming from these different points of view that have been represented here today. But that could be one hundred percent wrong and we are okay with that. So, let us know what you think there should be, or what you think we should do. And we’ll pick this up again. We don’t know when, we will figure that out. You can be a part of it, we will all be a part of it. Thank you so much for all of your insight, it has been really appreciated.


end of the conversation With that in mind, umummmmmm ummmmmmmm umumummmmm mummmm, I’m m umumummmmmu gonna go ahead and say this isn’t the end of the conversation, as we mentioned. Um,mummmmmm     mm       we need to keep building on this. So, if there are things that we talked about today are important to you, and you think you want to build on, try to capture it on this sheet that I’m passing around. The original thought was that the next conversation would be here in the Kansas City base. We have a series of case studies coming from these different points of view that have been represented here today. But that could be one hundred percent wrong and we are okay with that. So, let us know what you think there should be, or what you think we should do. And we’ll pick this up again. We don’t know when, we will figure that out. You can be a part of it, we will all be a part of it. Thank you so much for all of your insight, it has been really appreciated.

“You can be a part of it, we will all be a part of it. Thank you so much for all of your insight, it has been really appreciated.”


Artist, José Faus is a native of Bogota, Colombia and longtime Kansas City resident. He is a visual artist and writer having received degrees in Studio Art/Painting and Creative Writing/Journalism from University of Missouri—Kansas City. He is a founding member of the Latino Writers Collective and serves on the boards of The Writers Place, Latino Writers Collective and UMKC Friends of the Library. He is an appointed member of Kansas City Mayor, Sly James’ Task Force on Violence.


Liz Pund directs the Community Arts Training (CAT) Institute, a crosssector training program with a 20-year history for artists of all disciplines and community practitioners, organizers, and social workers in the use of art for social change. She supports an alumni network of 300+ changemakers who are active across the greater St. Louis area. She has been the executive director at a community organization, led a small arts nonprofit, and lived/ worked in Argentina managing online community engagement, and managed operations at a cutting-edge coworking facility. She has a lifelong passion for arts, culture and community and has 20+ years volunteering/ working in community settings.

As head of the creative placemaking program, Lynne McCormack, an artist by training, oversees LISC’s many projects that bring arts and culture into the work of comprehensive community development. Before joining LISC, Lynne served as the director of Art, Culture and Tourism for the city of Providence. For over thirty years, she has worked at the intersection of arts and community, forging partnerships that brought grants, festivals, employment opportunities and increased funding for arts-based development to the city. Lynne holds a BFA from the Rhode Island School of Design.


Next steps final  

Created in collaboration with Ashley Castillo, Debbie Dixon, Erin Konomos, Sarah Dean and Nhu Y Pham and Graphic Design chair of KCAI, Tyler...

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