Developing a Lean Culture

Developing a Lean Culture Guest was Jamie Flinchbaugh of the Lean Learning Center and co-author of The Hitchhikers Guide to Lean

Business901 Podcast Transcript

Jamie Flinchbaugh is co-founder and partner of the Lean Learning Center, bringing successful and varied experiences of lean transformation as both a practitioner and facilitator. Under the leadership of Jamie and the Center's senior managers, the Lean Learning Center has become one of the most recognized and premier lean providers in the world.

Flinchbaugh co-authored with Andy Carlino The Hitchhiker's Guide to Lean: Lessons from the Road, a best-selling lean book. The book's 10 chapters cover lean principles and thinking, lean leadership moves, the roadmap for lean transformation, common pitfalls of lean journeys, building an operating system, lean accounting, lean material management, lean in service organizations, and how individuals can apply lean to improve themselves.

The book concludes with interviews of lean practitioners on the front lines of change at Chrysler, Ross Controls, DTE Energy, RSR Corporation, and Nemak.

The Lean Learning Center was founded in 2001 to address the gaps and barriers that are holding back companies from successful and sustainable lean transformation. In addition to the advanced curriculum, the Center has developed a learning environment designed specifically for adult learning utilizing techniques that include discovery simulations, case studies, personal planning, and reflection - ultimately engaging people at a deep and personal level. We bring our unique lean understanding in creative ways to executives, managers, supervisors, change agents and front-line employees.

Developing a Lean Culture

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On the Busienss901 podcast, Jamie shared concepts and stories based on real-world Lean applications. We used The Hitchiker’s Guide to Lean and the Lean Learning Center as the jumping off point but soon wandered into the development of a Lean Culture. The podcast explored how to get started in lean but maybe more importantly, how to take the next step.

Joe Dager: Thanks everyone for joining us. This is Joe Dager, the host of the Business901 Podcast, and participating in the program today is Jamie Flinchbaugh, the author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to Lean and of the Lean Learning Center. Could you explain your role at the Lean Learning Center and also tell us a little bit about youself?

Jamie Flinchbaugh: Sure, absolutely. Well, thank you for having me today. I am co-founder and partner at the Lean Learning Center. We've been around for eight years, really founded on the idea with Andy Carlino, Dennis Pawley and myself, on the idea that Lean is not about just tools, it's really about culture and thinking and that leadership has to be engaged, not just participate. We were founded eight years ago and have worked with companies around the world and supporting them and their Lean journeys. My role's been everything from educator to coach since we started and I enjoy continuing my work with clients and those I'm coaching.

Joe: Let's just talk about the book a real quick second, because that's how I first learned about you. How long has the book been out?

Jamie: Two and a half years, I believe now.

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Joe: I ran across it, I believe, on Amazon and bought it. And what I liked about it more than anything else is it was an easy read. And I don't mean that in any sense except for a compliment, because I got so much out of it. In fact, the other day there was someone , I told them to start at chapter nine because it discusses practicing Lean principles about yourself, because what a great way to start learning Lean..

Jamie: Absolutely. The book, which was our goal, to make it easy to read. We believe that one of the barriers to Lean success is that we make it too difficult for people. We make the language too difficult. We make getting started too difficult. So there are very valid reasons that individuals don't want to really engage in the journey. And so, we really wrote it in a way that our goal is to make it easy to digest and understand, and not needed to have already read 15 Lean books in order to make sense of it. And we believe very strongly that Lean is individually and collectively practiced, meaning it's not what other people do, it's what you do. I like to say Lean begins with you, so we thought we'd help people also help their own personal journey.

Joe: I just thought that was very unique way you did that. The other thing I noticed about the book purposely is that it left out all the Japanese terms. I would assume you did that purposely.

Jamie: We did do it purposely. There are a couple terms like Kaizen that I'm sure were left in because they've been ubiquitous in, at least the North American business culture for quite some time. But we believe jargon and use of jargon is one of many ways which prevents other people from engaging. Uses of words that don't have meaning to the person you're speaking them to is by definition jargon. I have nothing against the folks that do use it, that understand it, that make it their language, or companies that make it their language. But we believe it can be a barrier for some very good intended to people to wanting to engage but not understanding what folks are talking about.

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Whether it's acronyms or Japanese words or whatever that might be, we do try to eliminate that, use as much everyday language as possible. We don't always succeed at that. It's a continuous pursuit to try to de-jargon something as deep and rich as Lean.

Joe: I think when people first look at Lean they don't understand the depth of it. I think Six Sigma, and I think statistical. In Lean you think more of in general terms, but there's quite a bit of depth to Lean, even without the Six Sigma side.

Jamie: Yeah, I've been on my learning journey for a long, long time, and I still learn something regularly. My goal is every day. I probably don't hit that goal, but that's my ideal at least is to learn every day. I continue to explore the richness and all the different subtleties and aspects and depth of Lean. I think that depth is both really attractive but also intimidating to the person who wants to take first steps. I hope I learn more in the next 10 years than I have in the last ten or 20. That would be fantastic. But if you tell somebody it's a 30 or 50 or 100 year learning journey, I kind of need something to help me a little sooner.

I think two things happen. One is, the depth, complexity and richness of Lean can be a barrier for people taking first steps and wanting to engage, and we've seen whole companies spend one or two years debating whether or not they should start the journey. That becomes a barrier, and at the same time, I think we have to be careful because when we do try to simplify it for folks, there's a tendency or at least a possibility of people limiting themselves, and saying, oh we've done, I can't tell you how many companies I've seen that have done Five Us and felt they've done Lean. They are now done. And so they're missing out on the real opportunities ahead of them.

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It's a Catch 22. We just have to be careful with how we communicate and engage people around that conversation, because somebody says, if they don't think them going to get benefit for ten or 20 years, they're not going to engage. But we also want them to appreciate that there's a lot of leg room in that journey.

Joe: What happens with Lean is that you start it and if you can get past the 5S or Kaizen Event, you can start having it become a culture, then it does become a journey, and that's what makes it successful. How do most people get started, or how would you recommend someone starting with Lean?

Jamie: I think, I guess it probably depends on whether I'm talking to a person or a company. I do think if people think about getting started, I think it's kind of like thinking about a new business. It's a lot of people that start a new business because they've developed a new product. What they don't think about is, what about that second product? How do I develop the second product while I'm launching and supporting the first product, or service or customer or whatever that might be. It's not enough to launch a first thing. You have to take that second step. And so a Lean journey is the same thing.

People think about that first step, but they don't think about how that first step sets up the second one, and here's what I mean by that. I think a lot of companies, only because they've read certain books that told them to do this, have started with 5S. I think it's a great tool. I try to practice it on everything down to my email.

But if 5S is not solving a problem that I have, that's my first experience with Lean.

Because I've done something that hasn't really helped me appreciate the benefits of what I'm investing my time in.

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If I just did something for no benefit, or no visible benefit, why would I keep going?

People have to start - pick a starting point with Lean that is relatively simple, whatever that might be, whether it's 5S or Kaizen events, or it's just some 5Y problem solving or a couple of visual management practices.

It has to start from the problem statement. What's wrong with my operation? How can I take a first step with Lean that helps me solve a problem in my process? If that's not the first step, then there's a high probability that there won't be a second one. That's the real danger - we have to think about how we get people on the journey and not just through the step.

Joe: Who engages you typically, is it the CEO level or in the operation level? When you see people come to the Lean Learning Center, what's that level in the company normally coming to you?

Jamie: It's pretty varied, for the Lean Learning Center itself. We're pretty much referral based. It can come from anywhere. We've gotten calls from the executive suite, we've gotten calls from factory managers, and we’ve gotten calls from Lean champions, from HR managers, even once from an elected union official. We get calls from all over different parts of the organization. I really do see a value when we get calls that originate with the C-Suite, where ever that officer might be. It's not because it's higher up in the organization and therefore we have a good sponsor, it's more because of if we're getting a call from the CEO, right off the bat that means they have already made the decision that they need to be personally involved.

That's a good kind of leader to be successful at Lean. Lean isn't just something you just endorse, it's not something you simply say, "Hey, guys, we want to go Lean journey, so put together a plan and run it by me.“

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A leader can get past those kinds of steps and move to an engaged role, but if they start out as an engaged role, that's a really good thing. It happens at all different levels, but I do think as companies think about their Lean journey, too many people within the organization try to get executive sponsorship, championship, whatever it might be, early in the journey without thinking about what it's going to take it there.

If I really want a 10, 20, 30-year Lean journey, I'm going to need the CEO on board. But I don't have to start there. Too often, people hear the story of the CEO standing on a mountaintop and saying, "We’re going to go on a lean journey.“ When they tell the story they don't talk about the two or three years that preceded that, where they had to get that person on board by doing the work, by demonstrating results, by engaging people and coaching people. They don't tell the first two or three years of that story.

I think that's a shame, because too many people think, 'I've got to start with the executive being a champion.' Very few journeys actually start that way.

Joe: When someone does contact you, though, how do you get started? I think people, they read about Lean, it's good, they hear about Toyota, which has been a predominant Lean example. They go through that, but how do you engage someone and tell them about Lean and how you would start with someone, if someone's calling you and saying, "I understand what Toyota's done, I've would like to learn more about Lean principles. I'd like to start applying it." Where do you start with them?

Jamie: Two things about our business that probably worth mentioning in the context of answering that is, one is that at least 50% of the companies that engage us are already on a Lean journey. Some have been on it 15, 20 years, some have done it for 3.

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At least 50%, it is probably more like 75 are already on a Lean journey. What that means is we have to figure out and pick up from where they are; figure out their gaps and help them close those gaps. The majority of the companies aren't trying to think about what they would do with Lean, they're trying to think about how they take Lean further.

The second thing is, having sat on the other side of the table and been inside operating companies and had Lean coaches and consultants helping me is - I always hated it when folks really pushed their approach on to me. It wasn't a partnership. It wasn't what I needed. It was what they were selling.

We do have structured processes, but we don't have a rigid approach, which says, 'you're going to buy package A or package B, and with that comes these things.' We support people through application; we support people through coaching, through assessments, through strategy development, through education.

So we support people through many different mechanisms, but we really try to figure out what best would help them. If somebody is starting a Lean journey, it's not uncommon for us to start with education and that's why we built the learning center, designed around how adult learners really learn.

So that we could get the education piece right for people that need that learning. We use that for folks that are well along the journey, as well as folks are getting started.

The folks that are just getting started often start with education.

But even companies that have been on the journey for 20 years still have a gap to close. We often help them with whatever that specific gap is, help them understand and help put the right service in to help them close that gap.

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Joe: Explain a little bit about the Lean Learning Center. Is that one way to introduce Lean? Also, lack of a better word here, placing someone in a funnel of where they're at, and what they want to do, a structured approach, so you know where to start with them and have them tools available to show them? Or is it truly just an introduction, to people?

Jamie: It's probably not. When we started the firm, we looked around and said, "What is wrong with Lean implementation today?" This was eight years ago. What we found then, we found is still true today, it's just better recognition of the problems and the gaps that people have. Very few people are really - despite people using words around this - there was very little recognition and focus around what Lean thinking really looked like. How do people think? What behaviors do they exhibit? How do you build the culture around that?

What we find is that companies that started 20 years ago, or 10, didn't really have that recognition. They have a lot of tools, they have a lot of practices, they might be really good at those tools, but they never really articulated and focused on building a Lean culture and building the behaviors at all levels of the organization.

For those types of companies, teaching them about, and helping them apply, Lean thinking principles and behaviors is still a really useful investment in that organization.

We've had ex-Toyota people come through and say, "This describes how I think. I had a way of thinking. I had a way of belief. I had a set of behaviors. I just didn't have a set of words to articulate them".

We hopefully are trying to get organizations that are new to the journey off the ground on the right foot. But organizations that have been on the journey, we hopefully are helping them understand the gap between what's working and what's not working in their journey and fix some of those problems to help them take those next steps.

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Joe: I find it very interesting that the Lean culture and the Lean people are advocates.

They breathe Lean. Why do you think Six Sigma adopted Lean?

Jamie: I think there's a fundamental fit between Six Sigma and Lean. I think I've occasionally been harsh on Six Sigma, but it's not on its practice but for its implementation. From a- what is Six Sigma and what is Lean- there really is a true fit between them. If Six Sigma is anything, and this is my definition of it, it is structured problem solving. It's having a structured process by which I go about solving problems, particularly those that depend upon a fresh look at data, deeply understanding a problem, and really getting to the root cause. Now there isn't a truly Lean company that doesn't try to accomplish the same thing. Have a structure process by which we solve problems to get to the heart of the root cause and deeply understand a problem. That's a very Lean mindset to take. Six Sigma just happens to provide a structured approach by which we do that. Now, it's also a structured approach that's better fitting towards larger problems or more complex problems, but fundamentally there's a strong fit.

I think the implementation is where there are often failures. Nothing in Six Sigma says that you should have those with and those without. People that get it, people that don't, People that have the special skills, and those who don't. But the implementation, not by any intention, ends up creating such a culture. So we see may failed Six Sigma implementations that focus on- well, we had the elitist over here that sat in a cubicle and said, "Send me your data". Then they sent their data and tried to solve their problem remotely.

That's not really what Six Sigma is, but that is a failed implementation. Lean suffers from failed implementations, Six Sigma suffers from failed implementations, but at the core of what they are, there's an awful lot of consistency in the underlying principles and practices.

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Joe: Yes I think they are very consistent together. I see Six Sigma as defining a problem and a great tool to use to take and investigate something very deeply. Where Lean, and this is where some people you should be able to describe this hopefully to me a little bit- I look at Lean as a broader thing, a cultural thing. I don't know I give Lean the credit for problem solving and the depth that maybe it's there for. I think of Lean as more of a general term and it's a great way to take a low hanging fruit, but then to go in and really solve a problem I look at Six Sigma as using that. I feel that I'm wrong here because I don't think I understand the depth of Lean to answer that question. Can you define that a little bit for me?

Jamie: It's hard to define, but I would say there is a common mainstream use of a definition of Lean that it's all about waste reduction. Therefore people don't associate as much with the problem solving aspect of it. Lean isn't all about waste elimination. First it's about value addition; and waste elimination is only the other side of that same coin.

It's very customer centric but in the end, problem solving is a hug huge part of what a real Lean culture becomes. Again, it's often been defined as just waste elimination, just ties in events, just inventory reduction, just material flow. Whether it's mainstream media or its some folks that only study at a shallow lever, there are a lot of very shallow definitions for Lean.

Although this is the wrong question to ever ask, occasionally we being folks who are deeply invested in understanding Lean- would sit around and talk about if you could only take one tool out of Lean and say I'm never going to practice anything but this one tool.

Again it's the wrong question, but for me, it would probably be 5Y problem solving. I kind of believe if you really master that one skill, you could potentially recreate all the other things that Lean has brought to light and brought as solutions forward to problems.

I believe Lean is a problem solving methodology as much as anything. So I think that missing that depth is one of the reasons that people miss and under invest in the learning journey.

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Joe: Like you say, using the fishbone diagram, one of the oldest tools out there to use. It's something that's not really taught but it's such a great tool to use for going through the 5Y process. I'm amazed at the lack of use of that tool.

Jamie: Yes it's a life 5Y problem solving, like a lot of these things. It's a pretty simple tool but it's the thinking that makes people fail at it. Sometimes the thinking is simply that I need to spend some time investing in understanding a problem. I like to say we have to close the knowledge gap before we close the performance gap. Fishbone is a great tool; it's been around forever. People never really understood it, never invested in really learning it, or they are more interested in being cutting edge than they are at being effective. They don't want to use an old effective tool; they'd rather use a new unproven tool. So they will jump to the new just because they want to claim they were first or claim they were on a leading edge, instead of looking at what's going to help me perform today.

Joe: It seems that I have used some Lean principles on the marketing side when I go into a client I would take some post-it notes and make a marketing calendar. In essence, what we started doing was making a basic value stream map. That's really in the back of my mind what I'm trying to create as I put post-it notes up there. If I were to go in there and say, "Oh we need to build a value stream map", I think I would lose half my clients.

Jamie: Absolutely. I think people put too much focus on the technique of a method, instead of a purpose of a method. Take value stream mapping, its primary purpose is to develop a common understanding of current reality. It's that common understanding that's important. It's not just an understanding, because the map itself is useless. It's the dialog you have in creating the map that's important. So, I don't care what people call it, as long as they are having that dialog and they are developing that common understanding, and they are digging deep into how their process works.

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I think when we bring Lean particularly to processes like marketing, sales, legal, or finance, too often people get hung up on the technique. The technique isn't as important as the purpose. They have to start with a purpose.

Joe: What do you think leaders are doing today that maybe they shouldn't be doing and maybe some of the things they should be doing?

Jamie: I think it's two sided. There are leaders and followers and they both have responsibilities in that gap. One is I think we've largely- and when I say we, I mean the Lean community at large have solved the buy in problem. I mean not every leader's bought in. But ten years ago, five years ago even; everyone said I can't convince my manager that Lean is actually worth spending time on. That problem hasn't gone away but for an awful lot of companies, for a large number of companies, that problem has been solved. There's generally a feeling that this is right, it's the right thing to do, it works, and we should invest some energy into it. However, people have gone from buy in to support. I visit so many companies that say, "Our management is 100% behind us". I say, ' "Well, that's a problem because behind is still behind".

Leadership is being out in front, and I think we expect too little from our leaders. I think they are capable of more than we give them credit for. We want them to be supportive, which mean say Lean is good, give us resources, advocate for us, and show up once in a while. I think that's such a limiting viewpoint on what we want from leaders. I want the leaders in the organization to be engaged. Engaged means more than just helping others apply a Lean, it means applying Lean to their own work. They have problems on their list of things to do. They're often, the pay in the level of the organization more strategic, but that doesn't mean the same thinking shouldn't be applied. It doesn't mean the same techniques don't apply.

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Yes, 5s'ing their desk isn't going to make a lot of difference. But if they 5s their information, their data they look at, their email in-box, the dashboard they use, if they 5s that it would make a difference. If they went to the source of at work, to the point of activity, and deeply understood current reality for the problems that they are working on, that would make a difference.

So I think we under appreciate and under estimate what our leaders should be capable, and are capable of. When I say it's partly a follower problem, because I talk to many followers or many people that are waiting for their executives to do certain things, and they say, "Our executives aren't being good Lean champions". Then I go talk to the champions, the executives, and they say, "Well, I didn't know I wasn't. Nobody told me. Nobody told me what I should be doing. No one's given me any idea. I'm just kind of learning this as I go".

So we don't even share with our leaders what's expected of them in the process. I think the definition of what management support looks like should be elevated. We should be asking for more, and that is engaged and not just supportive.

Joe: What's the direction of the Lean Learning Center in the future?

Jamie: Well, I'd say the fundamental statement behind that is that we are always paying attention to what challenges many companies face in making Lean successful and then trying to figure out innovative ways to solve those problems. That's our guiding mission of what determines what we do next. Whether its offer a new class, the last class we launched was called Leading Lean. It's skills for change agents because in all of my engineering background training, nobody ever taught me how to be a change agent. We've put together, researched, and compiled Best practices for being a change agent and put those in a course called Leading Lean because most folks never really learn that, they kind of stumble through it as they go.

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We are always looking at what problems people have in a successful transformation and then go about trying to problem solve those problems. In general though, I would say that one of the things that we've really tried to do recently and probably will so for many years, is try to develop more products. And what I mean by that are things that help people help themselves.

One of my favorites is a single point lesson which documents in one page, captures the essence of a practice or skill or tool. What I've seen in Lean change agents out there in the world is, we either have our fifty pages of PowerPoint or we wing it. Those aren't two good options. So we are trying to give people, coaches out there in the field, a tool to structure the transfer of knowledge. We structure the coaching of someone through a skill or a practice through these single point lessons so they didn't have to pull out their fifty pages of PowerPoint, and they also didn't have to just wing it.

We are trying to develop products that help people help themselves, that aren't just dependent upon us being there. Champions, executives, and leaders can use these tools and products to help lead their own transformations. That's one of the biggest things we have been working on over the past year and will continue going forward.

Joe: If someone wants your book "The Hitchhikers Guide to Lean- Lesson from the Road", do you have a separate website for that?

Jamie: Well, you can obviously find it directly on Amazon. We also have a book website, which is hitchhikersguidetolean.com. So you can find it on either one of those two places.

Many of our clients use it for book clubs, executive reading, or brownbag lunch discussions. We also sell it directly by the case at a discount. For people want to have large groups read the book, we have tried to make it at a more attractive price.

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Joe: I'd like to finish up by saying thank you. I really appreciate our conversation. I could listen to you for a very long time, now. Do you go out and do speaking events?

Jamie: I do occasionally speak at various conferences and also speak at client events, which are probably my most common speaking experiences.

Joe: I would like to again thank everyone for listening. I enjoyed listening to Jamie very much. You can find more about the LeanLearningCenter.com. Also you'd be able to get the podcast on the Business 901 ITunes store, if you want to download it to your iPod.

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Joseph T. Dager Lean Six Sigma Black Belt

Ph: 260-438-0411

Fax: 260-818-2022

Email: jtdager@business901.com Web/Blog: http://www.business901.com Twitter: @business901 What others say: In the past 20 years, Joe and I have collaborated on many difficult issues. Joe's ability to combine his expertise with "out of the box" thinking is unsurpassed. He has always delivered quickly, cost effectively and with ingenuity. A brilliant mind that is always a pleasure to work with." James R.

Joe Dager is President of Business901, a progressive company providing direction in areas such as Lean Marketing, Product Marketing, Product Launches and Re-Launches. As a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt and a certified coach of the Duct Tape Marketing organization, Business901 provides and implements marketing, project and performance planning methodologies in small businesses. The simplicity of a single flexible model will create clarity for your staff and as a result better execution. My goal is to allow you spend your time on the need versus the plan.

An example of how we may work: Business901 could start with a consulting style utilizing an individual from your organization or a virtual assistance that is well versed in our principles. We have capabilities to plug virtually any marketing function into your process immediately. As proficiencies develop, Business901 moves into a coach’s role supporting the process as needed. The goal of implementing a system is that the processes will become a habit and not an event. Part of your marketing strategy is to learn and implement these tools.

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