Avt019 ts aud012 woman's hour transcript v1

BBC RADIO FOUR: WOMAN’S HOUR Title of Programme: BBC Radio Four: Woman’s Hour Duration: 25 minutes Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03cv46z Synopsis: Alison and Helen, two of the women who are suing the Metropolitan Police for being tricked into relationships by undercover officers, talk about their experiences to radio presenter Jenni Murray.

Jenni then talks to Chief Constable Mick Creedon to hear the Metropolitan Police’s reaction to these allegations and to find out what is being done about the women’s allegations. He is heading Operation Herne, a criminal and conduct investigation into the Special Demonstration Squad who are accused of sexual contact with these women.

Transcribed by: Jessi Gutch, 07512204384, jessicagutch@hotmail.co.uk Date finished: 28/12/13 KEY JM = Jenni Murray A = Alison H = Helen MC = Chief Constable Mick Creedon

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JM: Now, as you may have heard in the news this week, there’s been a

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slight hiatus in the case where eight women are suing the Metropolitan Police and The Association of Chief Police Officers, because they claim they were tricked into long standing relationships with undercover officers JM: The question now is should the case be heard in open court, or, as the police argue, in a closed tribunal?

JM: Well two of the women joined me earlier this morning, Helen and Alison JM: How did Alison meet the man she believed was called Mark Cassidy?

A: I was in a group, er, an independent, political, community based group, that exposed police corruption in the 1990s and promoted trade union, anti racist, anti fascist politics, and he joined that group around the end of ’94, early ‘95 A: He said he was attracted by the black justice campaigns that we were working around, um, he came to meetings, he used to come out for drinks with people in the pub afterwards. He had a van like many of them did and he gave lots of us lifts home, um, and he was very sociable, easygoing, and I met him then and we started going out in May ‘95 JM: Why do you think you were targeted by him?

A: It’s a question I’d like answered myself. Possibly cover, I provided good cover, um, I was a trusted member of the group, I was friendly and I was popular A: My mum worked for the centre sometimes, typing, so nobody questioned my background, so, in that sense, I think I provided credibility A: I’m not sure that I provided cover for his whole deployment ‘cause I don’t think it was necessary for the last couple of years ‘cause he was doing work in groups that I wasn’t a member of, so I think the only other conclusion I come to is that it was to meet his needs. I think it was for sex, good food, a warm bed. He lived with me for 5 years at a very low-at a very low cost JM: What kind of feelings did you have for him?

A: I loved him very, very deeply. I expected to spend the rest of my life with him.

A: Within about two years of our relationship, towards the end of ’96, an ex-partner of mine who I’d been with for a very long time and was still friends with died in very, um, traumatic circumstances, and Mark supported me through that and, for me, it made us even closer and it made the relationship more serious I suppose, and about a year after that towards, I suppose the year of ’97, I started to want to have children and he didn’t and I felt we needed to discuss that further and he agreed to go to counselling with me and we went to relationship counselling for about, well, from about ’98, some time in ’98, ‘til when he disappeared in 2000 JM: Now you say disappeared, how did the relationship end?

A: In stages I suppose, er, Christmas ‘99 he was, just before Christmas he was suddenly called up north, apparently to attend to his grandfather who had had a stroke, and I said I would go up with him. I didn’t celebrate Christmas particularly, er, and he was insistent that I couldn’t go and it was something he had to do on his own A: Um, and he came back the day after Boxing Day a changed man. He

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looked very different, he looked washed out, he looked green actually. He said he’d had a row with his stepfather and that he’d punched his stepfather A: And that between January and March he had one more job to do and that he said was in Luton and that meant that he was hardly, I mean he was there at night, but he would leave very, very early in the morning, half past 5 in the morning, and get back about 9 o’clock at night, um, for a period until March, but was very withdrawn, was a different person, was not doing very much politically during that time A: And then in March, April, I came home from work one day and there was a note on the table saying that he’d left and that we’d wanted different things and he was sorry for everything but he couldn’t do it and I think I received maybe one or two virtually empty emails saying that he was travelling and then I received a postcard from him in Berlin, er, that said, all it said was ‘Don’t want a holiday in the sun’ which I realised, after some Googleing, was a reference to a Sex Pistols song, the last line of which was don’t be waiting for me A: And he sent me a longer letter as well from Germany, um, saying how guilty he felt, and how bad it all was, and how sorry he was, but that he had to do this and he would be okay and that was the last I heard from him JT: Helen how did you meet the man you believed was John Barker?

H: Well I was involved with a group called London Greenpeace, which campaigned on environmental and social justice issues and, shortly after I got involved, John started coming to the meetings. He was a friendly, sociable person, he also had a van which he used to offer to drive people home from meetings in, which is obviously a very good way to find out where people lived, and I mean obviously at the time I didn’t realise who he was, you know, I used to get a lift home with him quite regularly and we would end up chatting about things, and over time we became closer JT: And how far did your relationship go?

H: We became more friendly over time and at one point he told me that his father had died and we became a bit closer, er, then he asked me out a couple of times, but I didn’t start having a relationship with him. And then what happened was he told me that his mum had died in New Zealand and that he needed to fly over there to go to the funeral and he didn’t have the money. So he asked me to borrow money so that he could get there and I lent him 300 pounds and he stayed at my place the night before he left H: And, while he was there, he wrote to me from New Zealand sayingdescribing the funeral, you know, saying how great his friends had been, they’d all been very supportive just like me, and he really appreciated all the help that I’d given him. And actually now I know that his mother hadn’t died so it was all an act and basically designed to, kind of, engender empathy for him and draw us closer together, so I feel very manipulated by that JT: So for how long were you actually living together?

H: Well after he, after he came back from New Zealand, within a fairly short space of time, we started up a relationship, and he actually rented a

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bedsit near to me um and I would spend a lot of my time round there with him H: And then after about 6 months we rented a flat together, and he, you know, he basically, we shared a home for a year, so he had access to, um, all my possessions and every, you know, every thought I had in my head essentially, ‘cause he was with me all the time and we chatted about everything JT: And how in your case did it end?

H: Well after he’d told me that his parents had died he said that, um, he would be getting money, um, from the sale of their house, and that what he would like to do is for us to buy a place together and have children together, and then one day, and we talked about this quite a lot, and then one day I came home from work and H: There was this letter on the table saying I’ve gotta go, my head’s, I cant cope with things anymore, and I was absolutely distraught, but this was in the days before mobile phones, so I had no way of getting in contact with him H: Um, now after a fairly short space of time he actually came back, or he rang me, and I said look I really want to see you, I wanna understand what’s going on. He came back, um, we talked about it, um, he was, you know, after that he just seemed to be going through some sort of mental break down H: And then eventually he disappeared for good, um, a friend of mine had a phone call from him from, um, Heathrow Airport, and he said he’d posted a letter to me, and a few days after that the letter arrived, and it said that he was getting a flight to South Africa and he wouldn’t be coming back, he couldn’t cope with things, and that was the last I, well I had two more letters, but I never saw him again JT: How did you find out who he really was?

H: Through a very, very long process of searching, um JT: You went to New Zealand several times didn’t you?

H: In the end, yeah. I mean initially I, I took what I knew about him at face value and, um, I was thinking well if I could track his parents, the records of his parents deaths, I could maybe find out where he, where they lived, and who the solicitor was, and maybe I could get in contact with him that way H: So I tried to research that but it came back there was no record of his parents’ deaths and so that kind of set off a few alarm bells, what’s going on here, eventually one day I Just suddenly decided that I would go into St Catherine’s House which had the records of births, deaths and marriages in this country, and what I found there was that, um H: Well I went through the death records of his name and, at 8 years old, um, this child that was born with that name had died of leukemia, um, and so from that point, you know, I, well basically my world kind of fell apart because I no longer knew even the name of the person that I’d really loved and who I’d lived with JT: So he had taken the name of a child who had died?

H: Yes, yes JT: Alison, was there any time when you suspected that Cassidy might not

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be who he said he was?

A: Um, within those political spheres people were always suspicious of spies and infiltrators, so there was a kind of running joke about who the person around the committee table might not be who they said they are, but no one had expected, no one, none of us had anticipated this level of infiltration, and this level of intrusion A: Um, having said that, very early on in our relationship I used to make jokes and say you’ve fallen out of the sky, you know, where have you come from, how come, you know, what’s the catch? And used to make jokes about, you know, are you going back to Hendon now? Are you gonna be reporting back to your mates in Hendon? And he would, he would obviously deal with it very well, because he made it like a joke and it was a joke, it was nothing more than that JT: There was a credit card though wasn’t there, that you saw?

A: There was, yeah. So about, again I’m not, 18 months in, maybe 2 years in, I was suspicious, not that he was a police officer or anything like that, but I thought he was keeping something from me, and I didn’t think it was about infidelity, I felt that he was maybe doing stuff politically that he wasn’t telling me about A: And he went to the paper shop and left his jacket in the flat and, again, it doesn’t reflect particularly well on me, but I went through his pockets and found a credit card in the name of M Jenner, and I confronted him and challenged him saying “Who the hell is M Jenner?” and I remember vividly standing there with the card in our bedroom A: And his hands shot to his head and he said “Oh my god I can’t believe how stupid I’ve been, um, please, please don’t tell anybody. I bought it off a man in a pub, um, I haven’t used it or I’ve used it just to buy petrol once, I, you know, please don’t tell anyone, I don’t want anyone to think I’m just a stupid petty thief. Promise me you won’t tell anyone” A: And, you know, I loved the man and I trusted him and I believed him and I, again, remember cutting it up in the bin and saying I won’t tell anyone ‘cause its so embarrassing, but so, I then, after he disappeared several years later, it dawned on me when I became suspicious that that probably was the name, his real name JT: Now it turned out that he was married with three children? How did he manage to conduct his family life and live with you for five years?

A: I don’t know exactly, and I describe it a little bit like one of those optical illusions where you see two black profiles looking at each other, and then, if you look at it again, you see a white vase set in between, set against the black background A: And I think it’s what you- these people are professionally trained liars who create an illusion, whereby you see what you want to see, and what I saw was someone coming home from work at 5.30, 6 o’clock, every day, spending the evening with me, my friends, my family, sometimes going to political meetings, sleeping together, waking up in the morning, and he would go to work and I would go to work A: Um, with hindsight, I realise that the definition of work is flipped on its head, and, when he was with me, he was at work, and, in the mornings when he left me, he was, I suspect, going home

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JT: Helen, how easy has it been for you to form another relationship since you found out who Barker really was?

H: It’s been extremely difficult. I mean, basically, it destroys your sense of trust, but not only that, it destroys your sense of, um, being able to judge things for yourself, because, you know, if you find out that someone you’ve lived with and loved for, you know, that length of time is actually a completely different person who was acting everything. How on earth can you trust your own senses anymore? You know, if someone’s that good an actor, anybody could be doing that, and it just- yeah it makes it extremely difficult to-to, you know, trust what you’re seeing with your own eyes JT: What about you Alison?

A: I’ve been very fortunate. Through very old friends that I still have, I was able to meet somebody who I knew when I was a child, and have, um, as I say, been very lucky to now have a very supportive and very loving partner and two delicious children A: Um, but, had I not met him, had it not been somebody who I knew, I knew their family, I went to school with his first cousin, we went to the same youth club, I could not have formed a relationship with somebody I didn’t know from early childhood JT: What contact, Alison, have you had with the MET or ACPO the Association of Chief Police Officers?

A: Um we had a meeting, very little contact except through lawyers, but we did have a meeting a while ago about, um, with the Department for Professional Standards, about whether we wanted to make complaints about the officers A: And we had understood, we would have cooperated with that, had they confirmed that the people that we were talking about had indeed been police officers, but unfortunately they’re taking a stance of NCND, which means Neither Confirm Nor Deny, and therefore they’re basically inviting us to give them the most intimate memories that we have, or photographs, videos, love letters, about one of the most intimate and significant relationships of my life, without having the courtesy to actually tell us that these people were indeed working for them JT: Can you see, Alison, that, in certain circumstances, this kind of behaviour might be necessary to uncover information and perhaps protect the public?

A: Um, no I can’t, and we’ve discussed it at length amongst ourselves in the early days of the case, um, because we’re aware that that’s the position that the police are holding, and trying to unpack that position, and to understand it, is important for us and we’ve set up scenarios where, say the police wanted to infiltrate a paedophile ring, or a sex trafficking ring, and JT: Or a terrorist ring?

A: Or a terrorist ring, but I, an all women, I can’t imagine a scenario where there’s an all women terrorist ring, where an officers needs to sleep with a woman for a sustained, for any amount of time actually, that’s going to stop a bomb going off JT: Helen, what do you want out of this case?

H: We want to prevent it from happening to anybody else in the future,

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um, you know, its an absolutely horrendous experience to go through. It’s a gross intrusion into, you know, the right to a private life, a family life, um, and it’s also inhuman and degrading, which is not allowed, er, under human rights legislation, um, so yeah that’s our aim to stop it from happening to anybody else A: We also want answers. I feel very strongly I want answers about my own private and personal relationships. I want to know what information’s held on me including about my relationship with Mark. I want to know who was in control of Mark and how this person will be held accountable, um, I want to know what systems are in place to manage the operations, and I want to know whether the police think, in any way at all, they ought to be apologising for their actions JT: I was talking to Alison and Helen. Now we obviously asked the Metropolitan Police to take part in today’s programme. They had this to say: “There is a thorough review and live investigation into allegations of inappropriate behaviour and practices involving historic undercover deployments. It would be inappropriate for us to provide a running commentary on specific allegations while this investigation is ongoing” JT: It goes on to say: “The Metropolitan Police must balance the general public interest in these matters with its duty to protect officers and former officers who’ve been deployed undercover, often in difficult and dangerous circumstances. We’re therefore not prepared to confirm nor deny the identity of individuals alleged in the media to have been working undercover, nor confirm nor deny the deployment of individuals on specific operations JT: Well, joining me now is Chief Constable Mick Creedon, who’s leading Operation Herne, an investigation into undercover policing and the Special Demonstration Squad, which was involved in the current case JT: Chief Constable Creedon, what do you make of the women’s stories and their demands?

MC: Um, I’d read the testimony the women gave to the Home Affair Select Committee, and now heard that for the last half hour, and the stories are hugely compelling. They’re very moving and I do want to get across first and foremost my desire to properly investigate this, which is maybe something we can talk about JT: So what exactly are you investigating?

MC: I am commissioned by the Commission of the Metropolitan Police to carry out a very far-reaching investigation into Operation- into the Special Demonstration Squad, which existed for 40 years as a covert unit.

Um, the issue about sexual contact, which we’ve been talking about this morning, is only one part, and you might be aware, you touched on the issue of the use of dead baby’s identities, I’ve already reported on that matter MC: There are several strands within Operation Herne. You might also be aware of the allegations about trying to besmirch the Stephen Lawrence family, that’s part of my investigation, so there’s many strands, and one of the strands is about sexual contact as you’ve been talking about this morning JT: Now Alison and Helen are two of a number of women, some of them

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even had children, they say by undercover officers. How would you define that? Is that misconduct? Is that a breach of a woman’s human rights?

MC: Can I just be very, very clear? You talked about the issue - could this be justified - and I think one of the ladies might have suggested that we have said it could be justified, it cannot be, never can be, never should have been, never will be and never should be in the future intimate sexual contact is not something that an undercover police officer should take part in, at all JT: So why were they doing it?

MC: Why were they?

JT: Why were they doing it?

MC: Well, if I just turn this back, um, one of the difficulties I’m having with this investigation is, um, we need to sit down and take full accounts of the women, and I understand the point made by Alison just then, but when we have the full account and we understand, we can investigate it and talk to the officers. At the minute their unwillingness to give us a full witness statement is making it very difficult for me to carry out the investigation…

JT: But they’re giving witness statements MC: … which is both a criminal and a conduct investigation JT: They’re giving witness statements, what they’re saying is they don’t want to give you copies of their love letters, their private things. Why do you need to have that sort of stuff?

MC: Well firstly they haven’t given witness statements, um, I would absolutely plead with them to come and speak to me. I would meet them under any circumstances. We need statements because the point I want to keep making – I’m carrying out both a criminal and a conduct investigation. To do that we have to take a file to the Criminal Prosecution Service, the Criminal Prosecution Service need statements, they need evidence, and we need then to be able to put that against whatever the officers might say in their defence JT: So, from what you’ve heard this morning, would you say you have heard misconduct and a breach of human rights?

MC: The issue- I keep saying- Until we can have this in a way that I can properly look at with prosecutors, I wouldn’t be clear. But we are investigating it now in terms of misconduct. Misconduct regs are very clear, um, and behaviour is judged as gross misconduct or misconduct, that depends on the circumstances. And I’m being very clear around undercover deployments previously, now, and in the future, there should not be under any circumstances this type of sexual contact JT: So what’s happened to the Special Demonstrations Unit?

MC: That was closed down in 2008. It ran for 40 years. The MET decided in 2008 to close it down. It now doesn’t exist JT: So what’s allowed now in terms of undercover police and personal relations?

MC: Undercover policing is very tightly regulated by the law. It’s overseen by the surveillance commissioners, it’s authorised at Chief Officer level and there are very tight, what we call, use of conduct regulations with the officers, and there would never be any, any operation where we

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preauthorise sexual contact of this nature JT: Why are the police so determined that these cases should be heard in camera, um, in private?

MC: I think you’re referring to the civil aspect here, um, which I’m not involved in at all. What I’m clear about is, if we could get to the position of having the witness testimony, and we could make a case that went to the crown prosecution service JT: A criminal case?

MC: A criminal case. If indeed the CPS decided there was a case to answer that went to the criminal court, I’m sure that would not be held in camera. The civil case is not part of my investigation JT: But, if as a result of your investigation, you find there’s been misconduct, what will happen to the officers involved and their handlers who the MET seem to think need protecting?

MC: If there’s misconduct it can only apply to serving officers first and foremost. If you’re retired the misconduct regs don’t apply. It will not be just about the officers themselves, it will be about people who are involved in the chain of command who authorised their contact, but if of course that officer JT: Even if they’ve retired?

MC: Even if they’ve retired. The regs only apply if you’re still servicingyou’re still servicing, which many of these officers are not JT: So they’re going to get away scot free?

MC: They’ve retired. The misconduct regs do not apply. But I keep coming back to the point, this will also be investigated criminally, and, if it’s a criminal investigation, which indeed it is, that doesn’t matter if you’re retired or not JT: Chief Constable Mick Creedon. Thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.