Columbia University Oral History with Kartveli - circa 1960

The 'Remlniscences

of

'

,'.,'"': ' '''"' ,l ;trl

,ll I

AIJH(ANDER KARI\IEIJI

AvLatLon ProJaet

Ora1

flistory Research Offlce

Columbia Untverslty 1960

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_

:

:.

TREFACE

Thls rnanuserlpt is the result of a tape-recorded interview conducted by lvlr. Kenneth Leish of the 0ra1 i{istory Research 0ffice wlth Mr. A}exander Kartveli ln New York tn Aprll 1960.

Only mlnor correctlons and emendations havo been

ln mlnd, therefore, that he J-s readlng a transcript of the spoken, rather than the urrltten, wo::d.

This manuscript is closed untll the publication of a history of aviatlon by Amerlcan Horitage. Thereafte:: further restrictlons may be imposed. Yfhen the manuscript is available, it may be read, quoted from and cited by senious neseanch scholars accredlted for purposes of research by Columbia Univenslty, in such place as the University may provide. No reproduction of this memolr, either in whole or ln part, may be mado by micro-photo, typevrrlter", photostat, or Bny other devlce, except by !rk. Kartveli., hls heirs, Iegal representatives or assigns.

made, and the reader should bean

Kartvell -

EF

Alexander

Kartvelt - 10 l,,tay 1960 -

by Kenne

th

Le

1

i-sh.

You were bcrn l-n GoorElag

1{r. Kartvoli i

Ql

You were

i'{r. aartvell:

n. ab

T

was

cut the

Yes.

in the Russlan Army? Artitlery?

Thatts rtght, I was ln the antll1ery.

just going tc ask tf you could te1I state of avlattcn at that tlme?

I qias a

me m.ythlng

'r1i'e11, at that time, avlatl Dn was tn it s ea: }y 'vrr. Kartvorl , orlglns, and the cnly planes whleh Russla had were of foreign

orlgln, mostry French, idcrrand-Gheauvet and Blertots and some cther French atrplanes. But I had nothlng to do wlth avlatlcn at that time. f was_eQucated as an artillery offlcor,, end I Cld catch the end of ffor1d War f and most of the Russl-an Hevolutlcn.

A eountry, Gesrgla, ci.eclared lts lndepondence and r joined, the Georglan Army in flghting the Bclshevik movement. 'rllhen the cause vi,as lost, r had to reave Georgla, and r went to F,ranee and got my education in Franceo

Kartveli Ql

2

You wont tc engineeri-ng schcol there?

Kartvelli

I went to engtneering school; I went to aeronautlcal englneering school, LtI{ccle $u-perteure dtAeronautique. I also went to eloctrlcal school. f wanted to become an electrical engineer. I worked tn France in tho industry. f never rrvorked ln the eleetrlcal industry. I went dlrectly tc the aeronautlcal lndustry, and I worked ln soveral companlesrmostly on all-meta1 design whlch was just ortginating at that time.

Q: Can you telI me abcut the type of engtneerlng trainlng they had at that tlme? fuhat dld ycu thlnk was the future of avlatt on?

iffell, f thought the future was very gr"eat. I believed ln that thing, although the general opinlcn was not sor nhe general publlc thought that lt was sDrnethtng that was very useful during the war but wbuldn? t show much flnancLal proflt* Industry was very slew lri those days, but most of the peonle they were all young pecnle who were enthuslastlc about the subject and vyent along thls llne, Thatrs why I gave up my career as an electrical engineer and went intc avlatlcn.

Kartvelii

Kartvell -

3

I wcrked for Blerlot AeronautLcs, and f worked for three or fcur other companles, mostly on destgn and techntcel end of it.

Ql From the very beglnntng yoll were lnterested j-n all-metal planes?

Kartveli!

I was lnte:'ested in all-metal r:lanes, and F,ranee was then tire very first country ln alrplanes. Tn thls eountry, tndustry and destgn was not so advanced at that time, not as much as France. '.iie lr,iore of ceu.rso, Gerinans did tha,t dtt,fit/fr,$ durlng the war, but after the war was ended thelr industry rnore cr less collapsed, and the center of deslgn went to irrance. $everal alL-netar alrplanes were being destsled there, and thatt s where r acqulred my experience tn arl-metal desLgn. Le ui 4s TE*., at that tl-ne, Charles L'f'.ndbe.*"g*+*"n0ade his crossing, and r had the design of a transatlantlc airplano all ready, sD r showed tt to him inli'rance and he got very much intorested in my ldeas, and he brought me here (to trre u.s.), myself and the name of Chagnardn

Q: ,Is lt true that you worked ycur way through school in Iarls as a trapeze artlst or acrobat?

Kartveli ilartvelt:

I did

lr

of tha.t, Xes. I had to, because I ws.s eut off f,rcm my country and I diCnrt have means 0f exlstenee, so I had to nake a living somehow.

Q: You did

some

some

test piloting as well as destgning?

Kartvelti

No, I was not a tost pllotr r.ro. T flew. f did some flylng in France, but mostly as a technleal man to observe. r did know how to fly, but r didnt t do lt offtclall'r. r learned to fly in France at that tiire.

tn developing an automatic atrr:Iane, 3-1:241-t.cLd-w flytng without the pllot, tho b'tteees€"o* of gulded- mlsslles. The ld.ea was to have stablltty and electronlcally ccntrolled ai.rplanes, controlled from another alrplane, and we were developing machlnery for that. r dtd some flytng in that alrprane, trying to adjust the equlpment. 1,IIo had a cfifitt{l-/ nan, pllot whlch wcurld control the atrplane, and then we could swltch the control and out it on automatlc, and see whethe:: the airplane would rnaintain lts stabtriL ty and dlre ett cn. That was a ve ry hazardous thing, because nene of our equioment was working right at the be$tnning, and gyroscopes had not been perfected. rt was a vory hazardous but very interesting thi-ng to do.

I,r,ie

i,vere engaged

n! Fias thts when you were vuith dlerlct?

Kartvoli Kartvell; No, r

5

was with another smaIl company,

seclety of Aeromechanlcs, whlch was deveroping this. !.inarly the whole thing was glven unr but it ruas pioneering.

Q: Dtd you Know $eversky or Sokorsky in Kartvell:

No.

Russla?

f amlly knew $everskyt s famtly. f iorew his father. My f amlly knew his father very we1l. He wa.s 7 one of the most e**iedr=t+c singors in Eussla, and he was a very famous general. He o*?__9_-f I guess he spent part of hJ.s __-_: time in the south of Russra, sc the family got aequalnted wlth hlm. My mother knew hls father very well-, hls fan jly very well, My

but r never mot Alexander seversky in Russla. r met htn l-n this country.

Ql $o t,harles Levi.ne brought you to thls country?

Ke'rtvell: Charles Levlne brought me and the other. Prenchman here, and after f came hore, T brought he3e a seccnd urenchman, ir{r.

ThieBlst filfrt\Lilt, who later on became quite an authantic des:l-gner j_n this country. l{e ls now ch.lef eng5ineer cf r,alrch:-ld, and he was chtef engtneer of _Ealrchlld for many years, and then he quit. $o he ca!"0e 6"nd jolned trsr and. we destgne<l the alrplane for

rartvell -

b

Charles Levine whl-ch he called iincle Sa..n. It was my flrst essay of indepondent design; 1t was an a,il-metal mcnoplane,

of the earllest a}l-meial il/ airplanes' rt was a two-seater' and was lntended to fly across the ocean, because Levine lvanted tc build his own alrplane and fly over the ocean.

Levlne brought ,.rne here to build tha-t transatlantic airplane.

I tock a glance and told him the compllcattons made, but investlqatlcn showed that it was toc great ?^ was not Iie dectded not tc do lt, declded the ,tr;;;-uulig^ suf ficiently advanced. Idever"theless, the ldea was gcndn I uu:lt the moncplane wlth blg wings, and T had neople lnslde of th.e wings --very thi-ck wings, for the engine so this --.1:=*'-' was qulte a daring ldea. I'inally, after several mcnths of i-nvestlgatlon, he declded not to build lt. Tie decided to build the saall one, the Uncle Sam. tt showed $o we designed and bullt the alrplane, and sfil{fril some problems, and we were stabillty problems, dlreclional-stablltty -^-J -----,,^'- 1--. ln 'che process of cDrrecting these problems when his ha.ngar caught ftre and the atrplane was destroyed. Sc Lerrtne was kind. cf <iisapoointed, and he gave trp, I l-eft the company even before the ai-rplane was bui1t, because wo had some troubles with stabllity. Novertheless, the airplane made a big hit because i-t was one of tl:e flrst Dne

Kartvell -

7

all-metal alrplanes i'n thls country' then I left Levl-ne, and that was the perloc. of the 1 Tho::e \ nupt"sslcn. Por a Year cr two, I had a very tough tlme.

T \**. no work. PeoPle were selling aoples cn the street. "And \ to go through al} ki-nds of nls erles just tc have mY llving. \naa

lrork, and 11*'tP wsrk I You ean h" a place where PeoPle donrt Cie frorn star:vatl cn.

I hitta B. icb, anY klndof job' So I dtd all klnds of work had a h r, t=n"a the automoblles, I s crub' oed the streets, I

but r aia arr right

because

r

was

ln

New

alwaYs

tnteresting ttme in tha.t res pecto [v"rf 'irokker Alrcra"ft And t hen af ter tha't, I I ot a job with in 1trew J6rse[r I guoss Atlantic Alrcraft Ccmpany" Itw as qulte a change for me, because T was an expert in all-metal deslgn' I call rnyself an expert -- nobody knew any dlffeerent good so I got"a7;ot and good salary, and frcrn nothlng I Sot really a gcod posltlon. ffe designed a couple of atl-meta1 alrplaneso he t s And by the w&),, i,,,lr. Bcnzer who used to rvork f or them -retlred now -- he was the prcject engj-neer on that iob, end I dtd all the s$:ps- anal-ysls and.3TllynL3nlcs' ft was a twinai-rplene whicn flow and jotned. engine a]}-mota1 I

the Atr F orce finallY. Q:

:.f,,lhat

were the biggest oroblems with it?

(artveli -

3

i{a.rtveri-: At that time rnost cf the preblem was structural probrem, because $re dirintt know how to handre the fix6 rnetal. l/e ci.dnrt know hcw tc manufacture Lt cheapl_v, and most of the alrplanes were metal in and cut cf wood or cut of welded steol cubes. llie ran into a solid. arumlnum structur.e, a.nd we dl_dnr t know much abcut it, lve did.nr t have encugh cf it around and T the materlal was not deveroped yet. "'Jrie dldnrl know mueh about liuda--e

*s

of*bus{qtQg. or

all the phencrnena whtch took Dlace,

and sc r was using some of the experimental data whi-ch T had brcught wlth mo from Fra,nce. Anc alsc slme of my knowlerlgo cn Structures.

But ,Tany th,t_ngs were not clear, a.nd. we had. to take cl:ances, do a goocl guess; so it was very very i-nterestlng and excltlng to di/id design an alrplane and see it fly. ?eopIe wore wondering hcw we wourd nake a pla.no out of metalo But we dirl suceeed, and qulte an interesting airplane resulted.

H; Poople didntt think there Kar tve 11 :

vras any

future for metal alrplanes?

y d i dnt t th tnk tha"t the ro r/as any f ut ure . 'n'okkor had bullt an airplane out of pl5rwocd, and for nany years he was an a dvocate of plywood, but he uias a br.oadmlnrlod man, and he saidr BS lcng as there is a possibiltty thatyou can fr.Fffr!.f{ fi/fidJtLy butld it out of' metal, letrs do it.

The

iiartve li So he g;ave hls consent t o the anC se we bulld that airplane,

Later on, we destgned a a seaplane, also all_metal.

s

,:res

eapla.ne

.

-

q

tgo of the atrplane,

ir,Ie

stanted to design

\_,,-.\J-

Q:

Do you remember any storLes about the t esttng o.f the f lrst metal alnplanes that you wor.ked on with Fokker.?

Kartveli ! I ro:rrember it was tested at r New Jensey, and the first fitghts went pretty successfully. ?hen tho atrplane was delivened ts the lir Force.

The Alr Fs::ce was also rather cnitlcal. 'r1*:11e they wore b'oad-rninded in try'ng expertmental jobs, they were very carefu] not tc jump tnto prod'uction of the all--metal alrplanes, because there was nothi_ng known ln the way of service rxperlence on that plane, But the frrst jcb was nealIy a pioneering job.

Tt increased the public confldence in thl s new type of construction.

*:

'!''hen you

left Fohker, you went with $eversky?

Kartveli:

f 'r,,ont r,vith Severskyr f,es. I went with the Seversky Ccmpany as asslstant chlef englneer. fhey had

another man, anothor Russran, by the name of Gr:egorr ytrho was chlef englne,:r, a very eDmpetent and very inte)-ltgent rngineer. so between seversky and hln and myself, we started to deslgn the seversky

Kartrroll -

10

Arlphiblan, which seversky conceived hj.mself . iie had several new ldeas in tha.t. hnd r put my structu::e l-n there anrl somo of

especially the e1i ptical wing yrhich tho ai:"olane had, ai:C sDfire cf my other ldeas. s tarted the company in the mids t of the Depre ss 1cn, jus t bef ore the .De,oress ton ended.

Seversky was looktng for money and he got iv{r. Pau-l l{oore i-nterosted --iilir. ivlcore, who died rocently -- interestod ln his cDmpany, and PauI }{oore put mcney in the clmpanyo But then when Depresslcn came all the mDney was spent, ; and we dic-ntt have the airplaner sc we were worklng for sevorer t nonths for nothlng, just for the love of tho art. ltrr*t was &

my aerod5mamics,

1I.,0'e

l

very ver) tough tlme. r re,nember r didnr t pay f or my rcom for several rncnths, r diti.ntt have onough to eat, my glorres $rere

cut, and lt was a very tcugh time. But wo di-d s ome deslgn Ywork, Qlruf e# esurse rl,^-", net f nne,bil SiitiiH. I rhen later cn v're got sorne mDre m'noy. r,{,b finally built the airplane and /fi flew 1t, andjt was a tremendous success rt'i''; as also Dne sf the flrst all-metar alrplanes ln the ecuntry.

Thls v,ia.s cne of the beglnni"ng ones, but j-tw as a very good job, very nea"t and very strlng, and very rigid, a,nd i-t flew very well. Thatrs the Seversky Arnphlbian. , seversky was a very talented ftian, anc he ccntributed. tremendcusly tc the original, ve:iture s Dnno d-esi-gn. IIe was a man cf foreslght and knew everything. $c that amchibian, we sord thern tc $cuth America, to Colurobia. 1-{e got cu-r" f irst producticn irrorn

Kartvell orders. ?J:e cDrnpany was very smalr ln engi-neer:Lng, ftVe six peopre, something like that and ifi na.ybe 50 or b0 peoole in the shop, ITe pr.:oceeded to bul ld the corumblan

Il_

Or

Amphlblan.

6; Dtd the columbians

corne

up here to see a demcnstratton of it?

Kartrroll: Yesr they came up here, and we flew tt f or them. .&nd we dellvered the plane tc corurnbia. r donrt know whst happened to them, rhen we transferrod. the amphlblan into a land plane by removing the floats and puttrng regurar tanding gears on i-t, and we scld lt to the $s. Air Fsrce for a trai-ner. ft wa.s called

the BPA tnainer,

and" we

gDt an order. for

r dcn,t rerember, 5a or b0 -- but lt was a consldenable number at that ti-me, because they were not bulldln g a,trplanes tn lange numbers tn those days. $o we bullt several of those and sord them to the ll.s. Atr trorcer A.t that time tt wa-s the Arrny r:ir Ccrpso Q,; Did you start to work on the La.ncer aftor that?

Kartveli:

No, after that wo started tc work on the p1$-5 singre seatsr- f ighter, whlch was another modtficati on of the sarne

? airplaner &o arI-metar single seater. lre f,efined the ui-ngs,

and

trsr

trreJi -

LZ

refined the si.ngs and made a retnactable landi-ng gear. ft was one of the first airplanes wl.!h retractable landtrrg goarr that wourd. go 300 nl1es per hour, and that v*as a tremendous jump tn performance, bocause flghter atrplanes at that tlnne, *e m.p.h. itre jumped to ll0 nn.p.h. by refinements of aercdynamlcs, by uaklng tt rtghter an^ a more efficlont sfrt*ifi/py{ structuro.

we

Q: Could you toI1 me abcut the de vel o,Dment of the P-35, new things that you thought up and t ested and nut l-nto effoct? what i,tlerro the blggest problems lnvolvod?

Kartveli: $tructural probrems were sttrl there, because j-t was still the ploneering of ail-metal desl-gn, and we hac several aerodynamics problems -- how to make the alrrplane fast, how to redu.ee d!]g, hcw to tnstall the power cla.nt, because power a bOC or 800 horsepower enEi ne plant v,ras -- wfr/Ffl/A/f,y1/dylglile f dcilrt reeatl exactly urhat tne Dourer u,as, but i-t was ln that range. IIow tc install it, andb'fifr/frfr/d{'l{/p{ vte ha"d problems w:.th oropellers propellers became big and how to ma,inta.ln the effteiency cf the propelier, and al-so haw to have a good low speed, because at that time alrplanes vuere landing rrery slowly. ?hey wantod to be able to land it at 50, b0 n.p.h. How to tle all the functi.cns together, and

Kartvelt _ 13 yet heve an efflclent and light, and airplane wite good performancor severskSr contributed very much to thai alrplane; he shcwed a treiaendous arnount of foresight and intellrgence, a.nd he wa.s a good guesser. Iie t{il fleiv that alnplane htmself.

"4,s head DI. the company, he was chtof ptlot, and he was arso taki-ng eare

ct dfil#gy{ arsign,

a two-seater verslcn of the air"plane and I usod to fly wlth him. f remember we eracked up several tlmes, ? on this f ield ancl ParmlngCale . So I had a gccd tntonest!ng 'fie

made

oxperlence. .

.

lfou say he was a good guesser.

i(artveli:

c

sn }rDu gtve m€ an

examplo?

he

1yell, / would s&J-, "uJrry donrt ycu rnake tt that much longer?'r ff d say, "I{ow do you know?i, Then f would slt down an<l make ccmputations and

ftnd our that he was r:i.ght. At that time, he had venSr advanced ideas. He wanted to pu.t rockots on the al'rprane. rls a matier of fact, heJrad the crDgi_na1 patont Dn i n f llght ref ueling -- he had tha t rdea and patented i t. lloyr i.t is in the sood publtc dome.:l_n, but it was hls c::igi-na] i,lea. rhen he also had ideas on lcng ra.nge f lghter.s. r{6 always wanted to get more fue1, and dtd a lot cf research to rnake a non-stop flight in a f ighter plane from Los /rngeles to New lrork- I{e vras rnuch interested rn lDng range ncn-stop flying"

Kartveli _ th At that ti;ne, f ighters were d esigned f or just a couple of hours gc out, turn aroundrflako a 1tttle fllght, and land. He was lnsist5-ng that fighters should have rcnger ra.nge because they should accDmpany bcmbers. $o he for what hapBened many years later.

ha_r1

foresight,

;"; ;::,-:::,::,::.-",'ff;-':::::,L:;:" $,,,,",,,,::":': Q;

r'trhat

ye'rr was the p-i| sold to the Air Force?

Kartvoli:

F

f thtnk it was l g3b, t )7, scmewhore around there.

Then we built ancthar the F-i5 was a brg crcler, i thlnk we had 90 a.rrpranes, for qurte a sum of money, and rt lffas qulte a big step in our general lmowledge of al_rp1anes.

It just jumped cut to be foremost. ...rllo later on destgned another version of that atrplane whtch was a. two-soater. r dan,t remember how tney scld. it.

Q,: Thatts

tne

AT-9?

Kartveli:

Scmothlng Ilke thato That airplane we sol<i it to the $wedish government, and they were all bur_lt, anrl thatrs

when the war started, and u,s. gDvernment ccnftscated the alrplanes. They were sup.:osed. tc go tc Ewe,.len. r think thoy sent to were aLL d,/fi,fi/pipdtlyl pearl liarbcr. T,hey vrere a.11 ha,rbored"

Kartvel-t there and they were destrcyed by Japa.nese in thelr attack

15

Dn

Eearl Harbor.

4:

l',then

ycu knew tno war Uas comlng ycu reccgnlzed the need

for faster fighters?

Thatts right. itJo, that wa.s e von before the war , whlch was Dne of was started in luroper 'cefbre the

Kartvoll:

the first airplanes whlch (we shipped to Chi-na?)

And that atrplane went J$0 or 360 mi-Ies per hnur. whlch was a record speed at that ttql_$e sold that airplane to the Alr F'orce a1so, a.nd we got quite a btg order. irie got several hundred. Thatts when we were ste.rtod--we built already several hunir,ed -- and I think rnost cf them went to Ch.tna. ftm not snr"€, but I tfrtnk they went to China. But they cculd not use them in actual combat agatnst the Japs or Germans, because PIa in just had tanks.',Vo have self-sealing didntt they fi\flY1fi rogular tanks which wore very vurneraple, and at that ti-ne the requirement cama for protected tanks, tanks protected by

stde, called self-sealtng tanks, whlch are very gocd, self-soaling. That was developed tn this country. It was nct d.eveloped by our company.

I think we bullt s omethlng llke two or th:ree hundred

Kartrrell - Ib of thoso alrplanes, and. sorne of thom went to the llnlted $tates forces in thls country and sthers went to 0hi.na. At that tlme the roqulrement for self-sea1lng gasoline tanks came out, and the iffar wa"s just declared. Then we Cesigned" the P-47. '*; That was the famous Thunderbolt?

Kartvell:

fos

r

That v{as th+ flrst

r\artvelt; was qulte

q.

The-t

a

I

fightor that could go ,+00 mlles per hcur?

s rlght.

jump

ln

We ac

tuall

reached lg20 mtles

whi ch

performance.

Cculd you tell me about its developmentf

r\artvell; tirell r general type.

lnvltod to Dayton to dts cuss the '$e i,ilare invlted toDa;rton, Ir,rrt.ght Fle1d, to discuss t he goneral requlre:nont f or thls alrplane. I rnade a skotch which I showed to them, anti they 1lked it, so I turned arcund tc ernbark cn the ldea. I had" a very small engi-neertng departinent. I think I had about 80 people. 1IIe Cidnf t know, w€ vi,ero

t, what tyoe cf airplane to build. mhere was a blg dlscussLcn going Dflr whether to use a weter-cooled englne or whothen to use

f ir"s

Kartvell air-coo10d engine. lvater-cocled engine was narrowor,

L7

and

was susceptlb&e to better streannlinlng. Sc f flrst starteC to^destgn airplane vriith v,iater-cooled engine, and maCe f a ? matta i:re made those tests, and i-t was a snal1 a!.rnla.ne.

Ee s tarted- wl-th r guess abcut f our ma.chlne guns, sma.Il load" of bcmbs, a vory smarl and compact alrplano-- so*ethi.ng

a little

snalj-er that Messersehml<it. Then General Arnold was a. proponent cf alr-cooled engines, so he came cne day and said nc more water-cooled englnes, he wanted arr-cooled engines. At that ti-me we had to junt< the deslgn.

As a mattor of faet, r belr':v€ we made a full-scale

tunnol model of tliis aircraft. But yue had to th.ow a1l that design cut and start tc deslsr the alr-cooled. .,ry a'nothen confen.nce at l,,Tright Fleld, and that s when r mado my

wiLnd

sketch of the Thunderbolt. Ai that tlme we started to the Thr:nderbolt, and at that ti.mo everybody was more

---.--

ci

eslgn

enthuslastlc than tcday -- art.1 the englneers and men iruor_ked day andntght, practlcal Ly 24 hcurs a day, beeause the war was comlng. r dont t remember whether the vuer wa.s rieclrrred. or ::ct, but we knew that something was going wrcng.

Ir,e built our f t,st Thunrlerbclt in recor:d tlnne. rn the'past, guns usualry were r-oeated cn the fusilla"ge

e.nd shootlng

thrcugh the propotler. This timo v,,e had ihe guns on the wrng, wi:lch was qulte an inncvaticn, because rn order tc nut the guns on the w:i.ng v,ro haC tc make l-t enclosed anC tna t rrseakendd tho

Kartvell -

18

put elght guns, four cn ea.ch side, 5C calibre guns, and we designed ths s tructure around. those guns. The whole wing was full of ammunltion, so ihe iir:hcle upperoortlcn cf the wlng was removable, to be able to load the e"mmunttion i,n.

Y.,re built tho alrplane and it vuas very successful. ]r',.re i<r:ew at tha.t time that there would be jet f i-ghters. But we exceoded Dur speed whtch we pronlsed by 2O mj les -- it would g;o [20 mllos. And the alrplane was 1ig]:t and verystable, and very well-proportionod and very maneuvre?ot; at the same ttme, so w e were all oxclted, an,i uie bullt a, coupte of more airnlanes ln a hurry. At that time, many cthor alrplanes rlrlere suffering frcm flutter.

Some cther airplanes were losi in fllght because everybody started to do metal s tnucture and some or thenr they didnrt }arow, and several airplanes perishod from flutter. so the theory of flutter was nct advaneed yet, and th.e "A,tr Forces made up rules to accept airplanes for flutter the crtterion was, the tortir:nal frequoncy cf tho wi,ng tn They tasted the wtng for torticna,i frequency and they ha.:i a }lmtt. rvlcst o1' tne alr;clanes had a frequency of about zToo ( cycles per Beccnd. ,so we tested the p-42 f or ihat frequeney. rt showed rnuch less. rt shor:;ed about llr.00. so the;y tord me, trThat airplaners not safe tc fly.

Yourlr have tc fix tt, ja.ck up the f requency, otherwlse we wontt ret ycu fly. The structuro.

it,,re

rt

l{

Kartve.i-f-9 airplane is rrery dangerou.s. ftl.e w lngs will fal-.}. off tn flight.tt It,s llke To jack up the frequency ls very difficult. changing the beat cf yDur heart. You either dtet for ;r:-"'r.rr" or gD through operati. cn. So r,'re were all dlsgusted. A.no the pusnlng on us. war is coming, $o at that tine, Dur forces captured one ivlesserschmldt and brought lt here tc N.Y., to exhlbit tc the

pubilc. rt cf

my

was exhi-bited

,., r*o*lilr]1"'Jl"i *""t wltn

some

\$ \\ I aS \ \ \ I I

I

^?

asststants to tnat movio. iYe saru the rra-chlnery, cinemagr"ph,

and we measured the f requency sf'

i{esserschridt. f t

)llf I

happsnerl

to

I\S I

[f" scmething like 900, way below. ft was lower than everyboay ets{.-) [, i r,vent tc Wright rield an<1 ] tcld them, ,,You.trj better sond \ I | I p v,,lro tc r4r ulur ground sJ i{lt}er vuiau tc vv 5a his iriD urarls, alr.olane, elr itt s no gooda " J

f

J

so they let tirrough my alrplane. They satd a]l right. llure started to fly tt, and lt was all right.

But then another trouble f s tarted to lose tails. Suddenly, cut of I a clear sky, after a certain maneuvrer the tail of the alrplano wculd ilfitfi/ cDme off , and the airplane wculd crash and kil1 ,TIII llV /\ the plrot. rt kirled our t est ptlet -- irrr. parell_ was kiIled" I

Igot ,T I

I

At that ti.re, wo already were in productlon. ::",,ie had severar I I thousand people here. So we didnr t knoris what to do. \ r went to NACA, we had ecnl-erences with alr the top I sciontlsts and structural engi-noors, and finally -- oh, there l{ 1ryere a.lI kinds of thecries, sDrne cf then se.ying, rtTake the tail IrI off entir.oly, f1y lvi thout the tail.tt 0thers sald, 'i Fut the tair in front.

tl

\

Aartveli -

ZO

But r trrec to ftgure :ut, i_f the tail cDmos off rtrs oroba-b1y weak, s c we have to ma.ke it s trcnger, but r dt rrnr t know how much strcnger. sD we f inarlyfstanted tc anar5r2s our structural nequire:nents. 'i,'ire f ound that they were l-nadequate, that we wore deslgning

a talr belcw 10ad, so $Je :r--ncreased the 10a.d, making it strcnger, and we made it all metar. part cf the tai-I was Babrlcated at thab tlme and that part was browiLng outo so we ftnarly overcamo it, and we nnade tne alrplane and itf s been a very successf ul atrolane ever since. A verlr inter.est ing por=iod,

building the flrst Thunderbolt, vr'G dtdnr t iatow yet whe ther it was going to work or not, or how. My fa.ctDry iJi/as being bu_11t, and every ti:ne I wcirld loi:k at that faetory was growing, I sald, t,in,hat lf my alrplane *orrt t run? t_he.t wilt I do witn the factory?,, Tt was qulte an exctting perlod, but fortunately ever;'thlng turned cut all rlght, and we built 1brC00 of' tb.oso airplanes durlng the war. Toward the end o"f the war, v{e were knoeking cut, at this place and Dur o the r f actory, alrnos t 25 a dry, sDmethtng ltke that. ir"trhen

Q:

And you

arr

hour?

e

we were

ventually

managed

to g et it up to

SCO

mtles

il,

N

rlartvel-i -

2L

Kartvell;li',io eventually went to 500 mlles per hour -- vre Ii-ghtened it, and out rnore power -- the same eag{ ne, v;i th ii}ore power. ',rle gct the speed, recDrd f or prcpeller a-i-rprane, 5Cb rnil-es pCIr hcur. Thatr s the story of lllhunderbolt.

I had a trenen.dcus amount of ktck 'rom pj-lots whc had flown all over the varicus parts of the v;or1d, telling me how Thundorbott saved thelr ]lves, hew it was so rellable and +i f-Sle*fso strcng. It could take the punlsnment, fly wlthcaF-ee?uel*ng? .,J-cn the engino, and if half a vuing brlko it weuld stlll brlng _-,-.:'rul\-* tts nan back. Jfe vdero very prtud of' that maehine, and it dtd the jcb, ln the war, espocially tn the i-nva-sicn el. lurlne.

Q: They v{ere used ln China and Indla tcc.

Kartvell: They were used ln China, they were used ln and al-l over the Haclf tc.

Q: Dc you remember any stcri-es the pllots told ycu experiences wlth rhun,Lerbolt during ti:e u,ar? r'ar

Hurope,

a"bcut

lTell, J tnink ycu see i t ln tne nc'.riew -- the Thund,erbolt movtes -- where sDiae otl-ot bai-lerl cut andlanded in lr::ance scmewhere amcng the Germs.ns, and ti:e other ThunC.erbolt pllct landod aad plcked hlm up anC seved hls life and tney got B.way tveli:

Kartve

v,ri-

th it .

f

tt s quite a tall

li. -

22

st ory.

hac the prcblem cf that tail whlch was cne of the greatest prcblems. $o didnrt know vshat tc do. proCuctJcn ws.s going cR. iind they were try.ng to cut eorners, not to lYe

nake changes, bocauso we were producing the airplane in tr^emendcus

quantity for that ttme. Right j_n the ntclst of that pro,Cuetion we started to lose taiIs, and rre diCnr t know whet to do, because it was deslgneC accord-ing to all the ru1es, it wds tested, and had passed all the tests, and yet every ttne she wculd d"ive and pu}1 out, ihe tail woi;ld ccrne cff. irle had to f j_gure out, nake up our rnlnds quick.

.

??

the preslcent cf th.e cDmpanlr, and he was under terrific pressure fram the government to produce the air.planes, So I cane and told Damond, ilI have gre at news fcr Yotr, we just have to junk that tatl and deslgn a new one twlce as strcng, anc air motaI, ana\t wilr upset alr yDur prod-uctlln line, all yDur schedules can gD tc he1I. . .* .A"1

Daucnc was

.i:ut he had ccnftrl"ence in nne. Iie was a man of rj.ecj sicn. t'Well, iie said, if thatt s what tt takes, we | 11 have to dc it. r So we junke'c the old ttif , stopoed ever"ythlng f o1: a few woeks, and we workod iay and nrght, practlcalry 2h hou::s, d esigni.ng a new tail, test.ing it. And we were back in r:roductl cn after

three weeksr or sDmothtng 1lke that. '

.;

'\r

t lme.

That

wa.s

a very inter"esti_ng

Lartveli The other problem hed to dc with the flutter

23

of the

vuing. Qne of the nnen from N,&.CA who helped rno cut was Di. ?

Kildowskl . lie works he-re, sits ln tho next cf f tce.

He was an oxpert ln flu'i;ter thecry, and he gave me he kinC cf ccnforted ne, he said, ttDDntt worry, ever;.;th"ing witl be a 1-1 right, dcnr t pay any attenti cn. l tt s aII r.t Eht , the v,ring is strcng and wlll be all right.'i He was correct. ,fve also had problems with aileron ccnfircI, and stabillty ccntrol. That was for the flrst time tire* the alrprane was in dlvi-ng, was going into the problem of coilpressability. 'Jsua11y when you 6xceed a certain speed, tncso subsonlc ai-rpranes abrupt unclergo an Abtfifrfirt change tn tl-/A/rtt flow pattern over the wi-ng, and tha.t wculc freeze thg sttck. Ycu woul-dnr t be able to move the stiek, and the pilct dldntt knorri what to dc. They wourd d.ive until they wculd gradually decre&se the speed and then the stick wor:ld ccsre back. That wes a new phenomena which was new and very exclting, but we finally worked cu-t a way of flliing to avcid that danger. '.f,le es tablished the liniit of Cirring englo and diving spoed, bef ore the pilot shcu.ld pu1l out, because otherwise the pllct lcnew that af ter a cer-tain periccl cf t j.ne the s r i ck rs c urd fre e ze, :,irdy,i.,iThir?i7irri7i)7fihr7k""-, and continue a llttle blt xlore, and srow dorrn sltghtly and then ,.ou get cut of tt. So that was ffif$//idltf_n$ quite an excltement. In the beglnntng we thoughtfi that the -r,;ht1e airplane was wrcng, we wouldnrt be able to fly; but fi-nal1y wo knew how to

Kartveli

2l+

ffy, how tc pro;qram Dur flight tc prevent that. Finally we put cn so-cal}ed dive brakes whlch would prevent that ccndltion and make flying oasler, ro there wer?e qulte a number of problers.

Q: You worked on an atom bomb carrler, the. Thunde::streaka 'lirias that after the u,ar or dr:rlng? The Bh.-f,. fi"artveli;

That was after that.

After that we built several other alpplanos. 'I'hen we wont to jet fighters. illo built the 8l+ *trai-ght wtng airplano. life bui-1t the ThunCerjet, a bOO m.p.h. f ighter'. lIe di *nr t irave rnany problems vaith that; that succeedod wel1. That was used in Ksyss.lOrrU bef ore that, I we butlt a fcur-engined transport, the Rainbow, which was --wo built lt as a photographlc airplane for the {lr fn'orces, and it did high speed., abcut !00 miles per hrur. ,Te built the transpor"t anC analyzed it, and deslgned lt for an alrltner and called tt i?alnbow, and I guess Ee scld slx of them to i'an-Amerlcan and tvrienty to Arnerican .Alrl-i-nes. lrr.ie had hig hooes for that ai-rprane. rt was ahead of its timo by many years, because airllnes at that time were doing a.bou t 200, Z5O milos per hcur, and we suddenly v;ont to almost 4bc -:iiles oer hcur. It was ri.esj-gned. as a tsansatlantic airplane, to go from New York to Slurope, to ]:aris.

glt the orcer cf a6 airplanes, b for Pan-Ame::ican and 20 for American AirIines, and we proceeded. to build them. rlle

trertveli

-25

out a.t that ttrno, t he mpany $ias financta 1 v unablo to car"ny out the job ,a nd we had tb glve lt u i'na was the blg4est tragedy of my II fe, because that w a.ss so mu ahead cf anythi-ng ln exlste nce t hat tf we would ha VCc COIntiin that Iine, we would be t he bu llders of btg bornb err S nd bt g tra"ns atlant i c airpl ane s Sje missed ot.l.r oopont un tv at that tlme. a_

!

.Q: I romember a stcry abcut a Pan-Amerlcan ccntest, to b*&/,.n,,*? bui ld a plane that haci b€+tnll^E€i4 $artlveri:

Yes. There vras a contest Dn a big shlp 1ine, sD we designed a big shlp 1i-ne wlth retractable floats. ;'rle had a thlck rvi.ng, and the floats were going ln the wlng, sD tnto the eonfigurattcn wont the fl_oats. r;,rle a.lso ha.d a rhev r thlck wtngs with lots cf wipple ln ltr ylw?lw harl a man who he was an ass!.stant was general mana$er -- he wanted to make it llke a pullman t,aln, like roomettes, with a roorn for every man,'i11iililfrfr1 Itke 60 or 80 bathrclms in cne plane.

1lia.s

it over put in productlcn?

Kartveli: i\or ooo fiAfi Tlnat was an interestlng fundamental ldea, but 1t never went tnto productlon.

Kartveli -

2b

the Fleinbow. Then we designed the XF-91 alrr:1ane, uulth rccke ts , and tha t ai rola.ne dld --it was one of the flrst airolanes whi.ch made i[ach 1.2.

Then we Ceslgne,J

it

1i;

was abcut l95O

or

1951.

that wculd be the flrst fighter that exceedec the sound ln levol flight?

speed

Ka.rtverl: Yes. W6/fifi/fr Bhe others were experinental alrplanes especl-al1y designed. This was a furl nitlitary equtpped airplane, and it had a qulte unusual wtng a wing vuhere at the tip lt was much wtder than at the rootr so it was an inverse wing.

Q: Dtd ;'ou do a lot of work s

ound

DN

trying to break the speed cf

?

r\artveli

i

',i','e d

id,

ye s .

ycu tel1 me sDme storles abcut ycur ear'1y efforts te broak tvisrsil 17

w, Can

I(artvelt:

iToll, thet v,ias 0n that X-91, 0f cDuI'Se, we cannot clainn tlle,t we di.d i t first, because that was d one flr-s t by the Air Force s , on some oti:e r a-i rplane . But we were worklng

Kartvel i .en

the

s

arne

27

problem, at the same ti-me.

CI: Durtng itl'gy]fl

,3isy

ff , you had scine aggravati:r frrm the gcvornnent because they dldnr t see eye to eye vuLth ycu Dn some of your destgns, Kartvel j-: ]r'reIIr [otr see, as a desi.gnerr ilx problem was to

pnotect the e.irplane, dcntt let it get hee,vy, donrt 1et it get ugry -- and unless you do lt wlth sc many pecprer you knowr €ach cne over there wants to find more and nore stuff on the alrplane and fi-nally tho airplane becones ugtler and heavler and loses lts ccntr"ols and ftnally lt is so spotled they w111 say, 'fl-{'e dcnt t want itr " so ycu lose your contract. so r had to contjnue the fight rlrith them, for every gunce of welght and for every ounce of drag. And you also have to ftght with the managesent, because they wa-nt to s:lmolify

for the producticn chief , and they in turn #d/rty1d add we ight and des troy the aercdSrnanLcs of the a irnla.ne. $o have to fight on both fronts. Anci tha,trs like ba.lanci-ng the buc-get, you know ycu have to ftght with ever.rJbody for every ounce of welght. That is extre'ne1-y tmporta.nt in thls thS.ngs

business, becausa // they shou-l-d get just Dne man who should wDrry abcut the airplane as such, because if ycu donrt, lt wtl

all gc lnto ncthing.

$ s

Kartveli n; ii/hen cl"i d ycu f irst becDme very lnterl s te d 'tUhen did you first thlnk that the future was

!'

yfifrt/

IN

jets?

ZB

l/b?

je ts

?

Ka-rtveli: :,r',ie11, that was about r9L:, L.4, sornewhere in there__ while the war was stilr or1. But of course we i,uere not the first to buird the jet plane. The ftrst.\,uere buirt by Betl and Lockhoed. B,,t our airprano came tnto oroducticn abcut the sa'me tlme. r,vo used Gene:=al Erectrrc ongines, whtch pat terned was more cr less/on the,rid;r" cf British englnes, and wa br-ri1t up straight wing 8{, which gave us good results. 'liile had tr:ubIe with them some, but nct very rnuch. At that ttmo, we switehed from one tSrpe of gyrc to ancther type cf gyro, a gj:ro for lod.gj-ng tn the uiing, and we dtdnrt know the p::operty cf that new matertal, a.n,c Dur skl-n was vrninkling duri_ng -o fllght, and lt was.. . on that s[ ,r"#f *u had "r=] one very lntorestlng ? problen? we butlt approxirnately 400 of those, an,d suddenly our w1-ngs start to fal1 off in f light, and ki1I ptlots. rnle Ios t several pilots and r gDt sD jittery tha-t every time the telephone wou,lcl. ring, r wculd be all shaky. Einally r wound up with a *r,emendous stomech ulcer. r nearly drcpped out. tsut we kirlec that. ,r[e had ve:'y the f lrst tlrae the tanks on the wi_ngs, and finally, by anatyzing. . . the flowr w€ found, . . ( off tape)

(s

irie

ita-rtve

2\

Kartvell:

1l

29

started to lose wlngs. 1,r,Ie knew that our structure was perfect, because we mdde lots of structural tosts. il/e made s truetural tes ts of des tructt cn and wo knew that it was perfectly safe, bJ the standards of the engineon, and yet wo were losing wings. sc we anaryzed the problem, and we fcund that the tanks on the wings twisted the wtng, and made the airplane unstable. tYe

?

ri,hon

they were fu1l of gas , it was so ful1, 25 degreesrand the alrplano was not destgned for that. (?)

Sowe got away wlth it really just by putttng a llttle tatl on the tank, whlch cost scmethlng liko e200 aplece, and we avoided terrlftc eatastrophe. r.,Te thcught that we would have to redeslgn the wlng, and that would ruin the company. That was qulte an exctting perlod , but we got away

any

witir tt.

:4ore

f

t was very lnte resting.

e

Q: Cculd you telI I,!'e t

lTobody stopped us

me abcut the development

of the Thunderstreak?

ve talked ebout that

Kartveli: Nor we rve talked a.bcut the ThunderJet. was the Blrr wlth swept back wtngso

The ThundBnstroak

trartvell Qr

30

That managod to go b52 mtles an hour?

rtartvell : No, that went more than that: ,lach I.9, that, s weIl, in terms of isach numbers the. flrst one, the stratght ruing one, went 1'8 and the swept back wlng went L.95, sDmethlng like that. so lt was at il:at ti-ne that we got Eer.sman? because lt was still

subsonlc and it was qulto dlfficult

to

increase the speod. l,Ife

built lt ln recsnd time. Ij[e butlt tt i_n something llke etght racnths. InIe took the straight wing Btr- and removed the wing and put the swept baek wlng, and we hncught an engine from England, a sapphrre engine, very strcng engine, which flew that airplane. lye sold a very very la::ge number of those to Atr Fsrceso rt wa.s a very good alrplane, very efficient, but we had tr-ouble wlth tt in the beglnntng, becauso we put two-p-i-ece tail, r"egulan tall, uiltl: a *egu_1ar stabi-llzer, and at that speed that tail wourd. become very tnefflcient and you wourdnt t be able to oulr large number of ? $o we had to move tne tail and put one-p!.ece tarr, whi,ch is now standar"d on that typ" of airnlane, and that kin,r. of threw a monkey-wreach in cur producttcn, and r- ha.ve been bitten by management, but I tclC them, rr.phatrs part of the busLness, nothtng we can do,rf

Kartveli -

31

But B[ af rple.ne was very successful alrplane and we butlt a veryl arge number, several thou-sand of those.

Practically all Surcpe is f u1l sf tht s. alrplane. .a.t that tlme, we crea,ted the European dlvlsion of the cDmpany vrhi ch took 1,l.1e rnade ccnslderable amount:f care of this atrplane. meney on that"

Then you made a photo-reconnalssance model?

nartvell:

y€s, the Rtr'. l$e bul1t several RFr s , l- donr t (Or remombsr how many, several hundred thcusand. (?) lirre built several hunCreds Dr thousands of RF.ts, I donrt remembor how many.

)

tr'inally we deslgned the 105 airplane, which we are produclng now, and whlch r consld"er cne o f the best products we ever designed. rt was ths crea.tlon of rong experience. iuly crew knew lts business and the valu-e of e aeh one. I selected whlch one, to do the jcb, and we did a very good jcb Dn that ainplane, the F-105. ft wil1 gD twlce the speed of sound, A flghter-bomber. r had some dlsappointments wlth that atrolane , urhen we flrst bu:l-lt the tatest verslon cf that alrplane with btg engine. I I ost the alrplane at the first flight. ir,,ri:at happened"

ihen?

Kartvell *arivelii

32

Ehe landing ge,.r retracted and we cculdnrt get it

out, so we had- to make a bel1y l-andi-ng, That was quite a tragedy. But rn ,ur experronee, the flrst Dr seccnd alrplane --ti:e experimental atrplane rs mostr;,, 1ike13r to be lost, through something. ft was a mechanlcal deftciency in the landlng gee.r wirlch prevented tt from worklng. 1.rie had aII our folks standing cn the ground, looking trp, so that the pl1ot sald (by radi-o) rre would either have to bai_1 sut or make a, belly landing. So he made a heIIy la"nding. rhe alrplane fortunatol}'was nct too much damaged. could bring tt l.rro t,fifiVt/tt back in the shop and repalr st for fllght aqainn (';ithat happened tc t!:e pllst ? ) fi,1

'xl,he"t

were some of the cther blg problems?

Kartvell;

one sf the btg problems was to achteve that speed.

It was a iump of aboL;"t 170 spoed, so we had tc make our wlngs

thtnner and much rnore swept, anrl every ti-me you- sweep the wings, lt enhhnces the htgh speed abiltties of the alrplane, but it nakes i ts lovrr speed so much the poorer. se itr s getti-ng the balance, between the hlgh speed calculat,i'Lon an. the lcw much

spoed calculaticn, vrhich makes the problern very dtfficult.

-,ie have to t ake and glve and c cnnpromi,se arI arcunci, tu have a,eally

nrce

rorr,r spee<i

calc*l'ticn,

slcl; r-ancing

speed,

Krrtveli stabtrlty at low speeds, and yet have the a biltty speed. That was one of the btggest oroblolrso

33

of high

0f courso, there were structurar problems, and then there was t?re problem cf the engineo ll,ro rsent frcrn an englne which had 8000 nounds of thrust, tc a.n engtne which had 231000 pounds of thrust -- rnDre than three ttnes increase jn power of the engj.no. lnlo had the problems cf how to tnstall tho engine, how to cool tt; hcw to ccntrcr the vlbrati.cns, hovr tc design the alring tank. Alr:'ng ta.nk j.s one of the naost difflcult problems. iiou have to take atr abcard at a very high speed, and dlftuse that atr to a. much lower speed to fit the englneo The hcre thrcugh whlch the air com6s in must be rra.rtable wlth the speed, because of the dimenslcn of the engj,ne changing, from high speed to lntermedlate spoed tc low speed-- sc it msant establtshlng a varla,bl_e gernmetry d ue t'i doctrino, whlch changes the cross sectlon area of the d,uct depending upcn the speed.

So that development was a very difflcr-rrt and very tedious d evelopnont. s.nd lt sho,.r1d be automatlc, ttrs not controlled by pllot itrs ccntrorred erectronica.lly by the engi ne ltself . $c that was a big problem, lhe other problem wa.s that we were Dne of the fi:rst tc put tha.t blg donne lnslile of the alrplane r s c we had to nake a blg hole in the middle of tho atrplane, whlch weakened lt st::uctu-r,a1ly, and vue haC to destgn hcw i@

Kartvelt hovu

tc

make

the

dome

3lr

wrthcut anythlng protrudlng cutsLce.

thal lvas a blg problemo rhen we had problems of buffefing and ccntrols. i[io were going into a fairly unknown reglcn, because we wero And"

-a

,onkefit"oorra

1, the speed of sound, and wo wont twtce the speed of sound, whlch brings in a }argo number of urrknown factors. ,ii,e had. to me.ke tesi;s, and in some cases r,ve had to make gocd guesses, extnepolate frcm Dur expenlence, anc. be sure that Dur gue sses lryere rl-ght. At the same tinre, orocluctl_ cn was proceeding,l^na you have no right to make rnlstakes, because every ttme you rnake mlstakes lt costs ycu nillilns cf doIlars, and tt could ruin the companv.l i,ilach

""1

Q: The F-103 fntercepter ls f ai,rly recent, lsnrt tt?

Kartveli: It star.ted, f would say, about LgSA tha.t t s the one cn the rtght, the big one. rt was a very intoresttng airpl-ane, wnich was supposed to go to 3,T fi_mes th.e velocity of s ound almost k times the verocity of sound. rt was all designed out of titanlum, and it set a fatrly new pg$Jer plant, vrhi-eh was a ccnblnaticn of a regular jet engine and a rcund jet. rt wourd take off and aecelerate with the jet engi.nes, and then jet engine would swttch off anrt the exhaust pipe v"culd fcrm itserf into a rcuncl jet, just ancund the

jl.

ftartvell

3,

afr f76r7, from the cutslCe cf tho pipe, wh!-ch would give us a very large amcunt o f thrust at that speed and gcod effleLency. unfortunately, as ycu know, the product vras cancelled. xhe airplane was ab::ut [0 percent butlt when lt vras cancel]ed. *_: W'hy was

that

Kartvell:

'inje1l, f

done?

lrst of all, the engine itself didnrt succeed as well as we thcught. But lt was mostly the ecDnomy drive. They cancelred at the same time a lagge number of {hfit photo-airplanes and they eancerted the No. 11 gu.ided missi.le. so lt was a big pericd of cancelratlon. That airplane was cancolled at the same time.

Q,: Republlc is st8rl nroduci-ng the Las, arenrt they?

Kartveli; o:

vvhat

Yes. That^s our main productlcn today.

ara

scme

of the cther projects that yourve

r,,orked

on rocontly?

Kartvell:

are now working along throe different llnes" -5,io are s ttll ecntinui-ng to work on a.irplanes, because we beileve tnat there will still be some advance of ainplanes, ltie

and

Ka.rtve

that will

1i.

3b

.

rt $s ou"r mai.n busi-ness, e.f ter a1l, and vre have a blg fa"ctory whlch ls especlally built tc build airplanes, sD Iffe are designtng, ta.king up .1"i-fferent proposals, fcr several types of airplanos. Hight now werre ccncentrating on the sc-carred HT0L anci I/TOL. HT0L, the short tako-off alnprane, and VTOL, the ventlcat take-sff alrplane.

These take

consldera.ble amount of our time, and we belleve that

a

cne

cf the flrst improvements. . . see, we went atl these years at higher and hlgher andhlgher speeds, and we kind of neglected the 1ow end cf the scale: the faster you go, the moro real estate it takes to take-off. so the aroblem now is how to reduce the range of take-off and range cf lanrLing. I belteve ycu. can make a plane take sff vertteally and land vertlcally, or at roast cut dcwn that land by several _faults. $o we are worki.ng on thts type cf alrplane vrith all our offorts. iill- our efforts are dtrecterJ towarC.s thj s ty-oe o-f ai-rpIane. ,Ye are alsc wcrking Dn a- vor,\r, very highsoeed airplane, several times the velocity cf sound, try..ng tc see whether i"t can compete wi-th mlssilesr what kind of use can be made out of lt. rhe rest cf Dur research and ce.,rfrelopment ls workl_ng on astronautlcs, satollttes and space shi-os and things of that nature. v'Je aro nDtv erecting a serles of labonatories tn which

Kartveli we can dD clrr wor!( in astrcnautl_cs.

But lt

w::

11 t ake us

slme ttme to get it functioning beca.use we are just star.ting *.

tt

3T

now.

f tr.re heard that in the early fortles, youbelieved that would be very posslble to s end s cre thtng arounrl the moon.

nantve 1 i

3

.t That s right, f always belleved it, and" now lt ccmos tryi-ng to ostabllsh myself ln thls l:lner o? establlsh

true. ft m the cDmpany in thts Ilne.

Do you belteve the ei'nphasis will or more cn manned planes?

be cn manned rocket shtos,

Kartvell i ri',fel1, 1 thtnk as far as astrcnautlcs rs eoncerned, lt w111 be ttre air-b19*-E1!€J.ngine, which cf course will be vory lirnited. rt ha.s some uso but it will be very lrmited becauso nost cf the ;gg-ig::.11.. wi.ll bo drno by r-ockets, by i nuclear trropulsi cn prob,ably ult.nate1y, anri alsc by ele ctr.ical cropu'rsion. n,'e are wonklng in those three lines here, trying \ tc see what wo can do to hring our own eontributl:-.n to the general s tate of the art. \

!

Ci.: ?he rnodels cf ylur planes are all so smooth and bee.utiful, an ycu have a reputatl on for uneneumbered smooth 1ines. irytll you ral_k a l-lttle about your theorles in thet dlrectton?

d

':.artve

I1 -

^A JU

usually experience has shcwn that laws of aercdynamlcs and laws of aestfietics are y' ktnC of convergtng.

They are the same. lf,lhat looks right aesthe tlcal ly and artlstlcally us usually successful aerodynamica.lly. t. yDu tako the 707 jet transoort For\instancer have yDu ever seen it? The Boetng jet transpcrt? Itt s a beauttful beautiful alrplane, and yet th.e most efflcient airplane this country has. LUsually the beauty and" the aerodynamlc efficlencles gc tcgether; r

Qartveli:

tQ,:

,,I/e11,

incldent ln your career where you had to f tght to get )rDrr polnt ecross, when you know scrnethtng they were working cn was tco ioaded down wj-th lumps etc?

"It Icoks like a potatotl?

Can you re;nenber any

Kartvelii

Yes r alrrays was f or beautyr fcr oregance, a.n<i. for streamllnlng, because r felt rny nnain professlcn f,y'{ is aerodynamlcs, and r knew frcm theory tha.t the airola.ne shaoe, tire shapo of the wing or tLre shape of the body, must be

elegant, witi: a lolv rattc, must have gocd proporticns and these aro the same prerequtsltos for artrs t j-c c.esi.gn. sc they 6o shouloer to shoulder, these requlrements. T arways had to f1ght, nct cnly v;lth my crvn rnen but also wl"th the manageilen bocause lt usually cssts more $]oney to ma"ke it more

/rartvel

streamlined and better.

i -

39

ut you have to flght yDur way through and nake ycur point,

Q,: Can you glve

B

rne an exampibe,

an i,ncl<lent?

"artvell; }YeII, I had to f!.ght on the P-42 yru remennbor, f made my vilngs rather thln, and everybody was against me, and I $ias on the verge of b eing f lred. f told them, ItA11 rl-ght, It1l get out of here -- but either T qui t or you rna.ke that wing thln.tl They finally yielcted and made the w-i-ng thin.

Every tine I butld a new atrplane, after itrs bui-It T regret lt that I dlCntt make lt any thinner or any more strearnlined . /trWdfr/1/i fifi{fi/ rn pr.actlcatty every tnstance, that happened.

Novr, of ccurse, wlth tne advance of astronauttcs, those ldeas are no lonEer appllcable, because satellites and spaco ships are f1;,1p* tn empty space. There ls no alr. rt doesnrt natter how ugly ycu make it. As a matter of fb"ct, the ugller you make i t, the :nore ef f tc ient t t i_s. ycu ? rnake the radlaton seporately, the rccket separatery no matter how you arrange ycur ltems, aerodynamlcarly it d.cesnf t mean anything, because ycu fly i_n emoty space. uf cDurse there is a problem of re-entry. I belleve tha.t lvhen we wi-II be flytng the space ships, -- s&y, vrrill ycu tell them to o..?

Kartveli. -

hO

$oe, ri.ght now we are in the 'bogrnntng of astronauttcso ,I.re are frying s ate11ltes , a.nd it d oesnr t matter, they f ry so many mcnths cr sc man)r years and then they burn and

dtsappoar. But when we fly pecple ftnally, --after all, the purpose of any kind of fl;..ing is tc transpo::t human beings the instrument fIlght ls arI rtght, but unless ilan goos thore and puts hts foct on the moon or ersewhere, the problem is not solved. so, vihen we wtlr be transpo::ting peoole Dn space shins, we wirl have to re-enter the atmosphere, and at tnat time, ao rodSmaini cs wt 11 c Drno back. you ha ve t o butld in re as cn able aerodynamlc shapes tc be sure of the proper ste.b:lli tlr and ti:,e proper consld,erattcns in landing those ships Dn the ground.

So i-trs st1lI a very important part wlll be a very impcrtant part of space travel, becau.se af ter all, man doesnrt want to rive on the moon. someday he wants to come down and land on earth. sc i,ve have here a nlce group of aerodSmamic peoole who are learning hcw to destgn the spa.ce ships, and hcui to attack the problems of space travel. r:,i€ r 11 be co:,ng m're and mo::e of that as ti::ie goes by, because 8n al_rplane, from a mtlitary noint cf v&es, of course is ge ttlng more and more lirlted on account cf ihe advent of gui.<ied rntssiles and space travelr sD we have io look forward and see i:ow we can build the items of defense in ihe future. t1

Karuveli_ - lri

,Q, You had so many successes in your long career. As ycu lock back over yDur whole ca.reer, what do you thlnk was the thi.ng that gave you the most satlsfacttcn ? that yourre proudest f? or, the most thrilling rroment tn yDuy career? "artveli: '.Lieir, rrvo had-, of c ourse, a tremendous amcunt of thrtlls and prlde rn the r-42 airplane, because i feel very proud that r brought some little contrlbuttcn to ulnning the 'war. And r arso conslder very thrilrlng the pericd when I built that fcur-engine transport, and I thought that the conpany wou-ld get lnto the transport business, anr* thrat we wcurd buird btgger and betten a.rr.planes in the futune.

Bocause f a31 a si:rcng bellever ln the humanitarian destiny of avieti cn. r think that avi:tion ls a vra)r of transporting people -from on6 pcint to ancther in a hu*ry; it contrlbutes to get pecpre of dlffenent kinds together, promoti-ng better relaticnshtps between natirns, e.nd rtrs a great humanltarian f Ector. r feel that the rvork in that cir.octlcn is s cme

qcoC-

for

thlng

manklnd.

cf

co Ln'so,

you

e to

or milltar"y. atrplane s, becauso you- donr t r,vant sornobody to corne to your: eountry ancl tel1 y'u what to do. B ut on the cther hand, wcrking for destructi on all the trrne is a kind oi. work thatr s not hav

vsork f

1

6artve.l-i" -

Lt.Z

?

hurnanitarianr 8s ttts really defeattst'

I thtnk that the civllian end of'avtatlcn, i,n splte of the fact that tho airpla-ne wt}l be limlted -l-n ihe futu-re' as f ar as " lts milttary applleatt on ts cDncerned t?:e ctvi'11a-n end cf it w111 go on and ollr beda.use Ii is manrs destlny to go faster and faster and to simpltfy ti:e relatlonshi-p between ccuntrles and to got poople together. Ttrs a great humanitarian entenprise' That'* *hy r bellevo strong'] y that the airplaee wilr "orrtrrro] its extstonce ln the years to cDIItG. Q: Is thero anythlrig e1se, sir, that you wou1d like to tal.k abcut?

Kartvelll 1qiell, I dcnrt know. f thlnk :f told you my/ story.

I mlght add that I got treuendous thrlll out of ny 1r,ork, because it ls when ycu- work for two Dr threo years On a n€w desigp, a.nd when whatever you do finally fltes: i t is a satlsfacttrn vvhlch nc m:ney ccan buy. Itts the satisfacti-on of seeing your ideas acccmpltshed, yDur ccmnutations checked, and it giires yau b etter assurance for things to Co in the future. Ycu became more and more assured of Ycur abtlity and yD ur knowle dge o1' tho s ub je c t , and it glrre s yDu gre at anccuragement fcr futu.r'o planso I was very mucn thhllled when cur 105 airolane, whlch ure are producing ncw,

I

-[isy!ty6 [l

-

tL3

cut so successf u1 tha-i: we won all the crrnpeti-tj-ons, and itis \egular ftghter bomber ci'thCI United $tates Air F'orceso Itm very proud of it, and i-t glves ixe a tromenCous arncunt cf mental and nncral satlsfactlcn, both in the work and Tnis type cf engi-noering ls a very nervous thi-ng, because so many thlngs can gD wrcng, and you are finally playi.ng wlth human llfe.

You build an a-lrplane, send a man there, and he may lose hts 1lfo. Ycu ha.ve atremendous sense of responstbirity, no{onfy for Dne man, but when you build a large numben" of atrplanes, thcse alrplanes that are building ln thousanrls, you k'nd of alvrays think about trre pilots thai are gci-ng to f ly thcse a"trplanes and I'lght f or their livos. Ycu should be very, very careful tc destgn everythlng in such a vrqy that tt will glve the poor pilot, upstatrs at 5Cr0C0 feet, the best chance he has tc survlvs. You shculd be very, very hcnest in yDur work. YDu cannct fake, yDu cannot pull tricks, you have to be ebsolutely sure that everything ycu, do ts rlght, tha.t there are nD hiCCen rJefects ln your artlcle.

Itr s a very nervous type cf r,;ork: ycu get stomach ulcers, y3tr dcnrt sleep nlghts, you- d"cntt eat, ycu d:nrt rJrink. out the f inal satlsf acticn wnich ycu get r:ut of seet thi"ng fly is a tremendcus rewar-d, vuhich makes up for aI1 the suffering whlch ycu are undergoing because of yq c8me

i I

V b

i{artvell -

l+Jt

fndex

Arnold, Henny H.

Bonyer, Damond,

Al

LT

7

22

Fokker, Anthony B,

Klldowokl, Dr. ---

g

23

tevlne, Gha:rLes 3, 5, Moores ?au1 L0

6

de 5, 9, 10, LZ, 13 lgI"""F, sIEOrSlry, tlexanden l.gor , Thieblot, ---

5

.1..|:-/

-:;*;ii6:,Sd