Artziprichardwilsoninterviewmay2014

ACTING ALONE INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD WILSON 單獨行動

專訪藝術家理查德·威爾遜 TEXT BY 撰文 x RAJESH PUNJ 瑞傑希·龐治 TRANSLATED BY 翻譯 x BOWEN LI 李博文

IMAGE COURTESY OF 圖片提供 x RICHARD WILSON RA 理查德 · 威爾遜

Slipstream is one of Richard Wilson’s most innovative projects to date. Originally based on the induced motion of a car rolling over,

translated into the aeronautical endeavour of a small propeller plane turning through the air at high altitude; Wilson’s elevated

aluminium clad sculpture, twists through the central space of the redesigned new terminal building like an elongated spacecraft

settling for earth. And as the motive for our meeting, this titanic sculpture serves to facilitate what is a remarkably candid conversation

about his original appetite for the grandiose scale of American sculpture, and of its influence upon his more substantial interventionist works. His indicative need for a ‘wow’ factor when drawing an audience in, and of his wish to redress the notion that his works are in

any way acts of ‘vandalism’. Throughout Wilson advocates for more rudimentary principles, referring to ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’, ideals

that he argues are slipping away from a lot of leading artist’s practices now, in favour of more commercial interests. All of which makes Wilson a sculptor in the purist sense.

《尾流（Slipstream）》是英國雕塑家理查德·威爾遜最為大膽的作品。這件巨型雕塑作品模擬了機動車在路面翻滾以及小型螺旋槳飛機在

高空航行的動態。像是一架宇宙飛船準備降落地球一般，巨型鋁製雕塑《尾流》扭曲地漂浮於倫敦希斯羅機場新航站樓之中。從這件作品開

始，我們與威爾遜討論了他對美國巨型雕塑的偏愛，以及這風格對他充滿介入感的大型雕塑作品的影響；他對公眾積極反饋的需要，以及他

對作品的破壞性的辯護。威爾遜在這次談話之中大量提及了如誠實或尊嚴等基本創作原則。對他來說，許多成功的藝 術家已經放棄了這些 原則，並更多地尋求商業利益。這一切堅持為威爾遜保持了雕塑藝術家身份的純粹性。

EXCLUSIVE COLUMN

ART.ZIP: Possibly we should begin by your explaining and exploring the

significance of your new work, ‘Slipstream’, and of how important the scale of this work is?

RW: It’s an interesting question relating to scale, because first of all the obvious

question people will say is it’s ginormous, why? And you have got to understand I have spent a good part of my professional career as a sculptor; dabbling with

architecture, playing with architecture, undoing it, and therefore I’ve had to take

on that scale. Therefore if you have an idea about spinning a facade, you don’t do it as a six foot piece. A facade is looking at the extremities and thinking what will the budget allow for? So obviously architecture is a dedicator for scale, and the

other thing is the canvas that I was given, which is the empty void of the covered court area. Which is supported in the middle by eleven columns, and in relation to the brief that I was given, was that the sculpture could only be supported off of the columns. So I have only used four of them, and I have probably used just over a third of the supports for the ceiling.

So in that respect it’s not a very big sculpture; but it is big when you see it.

And it’s to do with human scale, non-human scale, and architectural scale. So I’ve worked with the scale of the room, and I’ve worked with the scale of the

interior of the architecture. It’s not as big as the building; it’s only in one third

of the building. You have got the car-park arrivals area from London, and then you have the covered court area, and you have the terminal. So I have got the middle piece; and I’ve taken four of the eleven columns of the middle piece,

therefore it’s not a sprawling work that occupies three parts of the architecture,

ART.ZIP: 我們或許應當從您的新作品《尾流》開始。請您 給我們講一下這件作品的寓意，以及創作規模的意義。

RW: 創作規模是一個有趣的問題，因為這個作品對所 有人來說都是巨大的。為甚麼？你要明白，我一直是這 樣工作的：進入建築領域、使用建築元素、解構建築，

因此自然 地，創作規模 是 一 個很 重要的考慮因素。所 以，如果你想要 扭轉一 個建 築的立面，一 個六 英 尺 大

小的作品並不足夠。任何一 個西式建 築立面都與 極限 有關，當 然也 與預 算 有關 。所以 理 所應當 地，建 築 總

與“規模”息息相關，而我能夠使用的創作空間就是候 機樓巨大的中庭。中庭里有十一根承重柱，我的作品只 使用了其中的四根，只佔用了三分之一的天幕支撐。

所以，在 這個意義 上 來 說，這件作品並不是 一 個無比 巨大的雕塑；但親身體驗這個雕塑時你還是會感覺到

它的龐 大。這與人體 大小 、非人體 尺 度以 及 建 築 規模 有關。創作的規模根據空間的尺度以及建 築內部大小

進 行 調 整，我 只使 用了整體 建 築 的三分之一左 右，而

不是 整個建 築的全 部空間。整體 建 築包括停車場、中 庭以 及候 機樓 。我 只使 用了整體 建 築 的第二部份，借 用了四根立柱，所以這不是一 個盤踞著整個巨大建 築 的 雕 塑 作品 。我 想，在 這個意義 上，這個 雕 塑 適合 這 個空間，大小合宜。

it only occupies one part of it. So in that respect I think it is right for where it is, and the size is right for where it is located.

And in terms of the visual people like to see exciting things, dramatic things, startle their imaginations, and I think I work on that level. It’s a little rude in

the sculpture world, but I use it, and I suppose I use it because I am working

a lot of the time in an environment where my audience isn’t well versed in an art grammar. Here we are at an airport where 20 million people a year come through this terminal, then they are not all going be au fait with the visual

arts; they (the audience), have not had the training I have had, so I have to use something that gets that wow factor going.

ART.ZIP: You appear to consider the external factors of a work, (the volume of space you begin with, and your wish for the work not to overwhelm that

setting in any way), as much as the work itself; am I correct in thinking that?

RW: I think that’s true, and I think that one learns to be very sensitive, and that comes through various reasons. And it is something I have had to really think about, and work with over the years, because I spoke about the idea that

you can make constructions and build, which is what this is. Or as a lot of my work in the pass has done, which is to unravel and undo, and look inside of

architecture. When you do that, you tend you get critics talking about the artist as being a vandal, that I am attacking architecture, and disagreeing with the

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A Slice Of Reality, Greenwich Peninsula, London, 2000 © Richard Wilson RA

and things that are going to arouse them, and dazzle them in some way, and

Artist Richard Wilson RA in front of Slipstream at Heathrow’s new Terminal 2 © LHR Airports Limited. Photographer Anthony Charlton.

architect; and it’s not that at all. Because they are sensitively choreographed pieces; so

視 覺 上，人們喜 歡 令人 興奮的、戲 劇 性的、

or take a window and bring it into the space to adjust the architecture, it’s all incredibly

東 西，我 覺 得 我 在 基 於 這 樣 的 標 準 進 行 創

when you do turn the facade of a building, or plant a sculpture in the floor of a gallery,

thought out and sensitively worked. I wouldn’t say hundreds, but there are lots and lots of drawings, sketches and models made, to get it to sit properly and right in the space.

It’s not an attack, it’s not an act of vandalism. I’m not the mad axe man coming in to attack architecture, as has been written about me. So I have had to think about it.

ART.ZIP: That comes across as a strange accusation, for someone so deliberate in everything that they do. Are you?

聳動 性的、能 夠讓 人暈眩、激發人 想像力的

作 。對於雕 塑界來 說，這樣的創作可能有些 粗魯，但 是我 必須 這樣 做，因為我 經常要 在 一 個 非 專 業 藝 術 語 境 中 進 行 創 作 。這 个 候

機 樓 每 年 接 納 超 過 兩 千萬 來自世界 各地 的 旅客，我們不能指望每一 個旅客都熟悉當代

視覺藝 術。他們沒有接受過我曾接受過的訓 練，而我要為了讓他們興奮而創作。

RW: I can understand it, because what it is, is that often people don’t know the hidden

ART.ZIP: 對您來說，創作外部因素－－包括空

1998, The Arc, Stockton-Upon-Tees; Turning the Place Over 2008, Liverpool; Water

乎與作品本身同樣重要。我這樣說對嗎？

agenda, and I am referring again to these pieces I have just mentioned, (Over Easy

Table 1994, Matt’s Gallery, London), when you know you have been given permission

間的大小，以 及 創作規模的合宜性等等－－似

to undo a window, and you have a very good understanding of how that window

RW：的確 是這樣的。出於很多原因，一 個藝

it, bring it back in, and put it back up afterwards. I knew with Turning the Place Over

以 及面對的事情，因為在某些情況下你可以

operates, as in She Came in through the Bathroom Window 1989; I could just unbolt 2008, I could do a pastry cut in the building, mount that onto a spindle and spin it,

because the building was going to be pulled down afterwards; so those were the hidden agendas, given that information. The same with the Serpentine Gallery, Jamming Gears

exhibition, in 1996; they, (the gallery), were going to excavate their basement out. And

術 家 要 學 會 變 得 敏 感 。這 是 我 要 經 常 考 慮 提出一 個計劃並開始建造，一切非常順利。

有時 候，就像我 過去常做 的那 樣，你 想要消 解 、鬆弛並探究一 個建 築的內部。評論家們

經常把這種作品視作是一種蓄意毀壞，把我

EXCLUSIVE COLUMN

視作是攻擊建築的人，對建築師的創造有異議的人。但事實完全不是這樣的。我過往的創作

助，將 在地下一層建 立一 個藝 術 教育廳 。我

地面上立 起一 個雕 塑，或是在一 個建 築中放 置一 個窗戶以改 變 這個建 築空間，這些 都是 經

這地板無論如何是要被拆掉的。所以我一直

全部都經歷過仔細的架構 和縝密的考慮。所以，無論是扭轉一 個大樓的立面，還是在畫廊的 過深思熟慮的、都是細緻地構架出來的。每一件作品在實現之前都需要大量的繪圖、草稿、 模型，以達到理想的結果。這些作品不是對建築的攻擊，我也不是在蓄意毀壞某幢建築。我 不是人們口中的那個拿著斧子攻擊建築的瘋子。所以我需要考慮這些事情。 ART.ZIP: 對於如此謹慎的人有這樣的一個指控實在有點不能理解。

R W：我 能 理 解 這 些 指 控，因 為人們 通常不清 楚 藝 術 創 作 的 背景 。我 在 討 論 的 還 是 那一系

列作品(Over Easy 1998, The Arc, Stockton-Upon-Tees; Turning the Place Over 2008, Liverpool; Water Table 1994, Matt’s Gallery, London)：舉例來說，在《她從浴室窗子爬進 來（She Came in through the Bathroom Window, 1989）》之中，我清楚那個特定窗戶的功

能，也已經獲得許可，所以我能夠把窗戶卸下來，放入室內空間的中心，再放回原位。在創作 《翻轉空間（Turning the Place Over, 2008）》的時候，我可以切開一個大樓立面的一部分、為 這一部份安上軸、任意旋轉這一切面，因為這整幢大樓在此後將被拆除。這些細節是我藝術

之所以可以挖空畫廊的地板進行創作，因為 都是在與空間達成共識之後，在可行的範圍 內進行創作的，在這個意義上，我可能在某程 度上挑戰了一些建築空間。在一 個美 術館環

境中，建築的地位是至高無上的，你甚至不能 在牆上釘釘子，更不要提掀起地板了。光是取

出一 個燈泡就要經歷許多安全 保障手續，已 經 是非常困難的事情了。所以在 創作的時候 我 對所有這些 情 況 進行研究，努力了解一系 列的限制性因素，最終在這些限制之內進行

創作 。我的創作 不是蓄意毀壞，我 並沒有走

入一個空間，甚麼也不問，不尋求許可，就假 設我可以進行那些創作的。

創作的背景。1996年在倫敦蛇形畫廊（Serpentine Gallery）完成的《卡住的齒輪（Jamming

ART.ZIP: 在計劃進行當中，繪圖是其中一個重

they had been given lottery money to put an education room down there. Therefore I

RW：對我 來說繪 畫非常重要。因為，第一，

understanding that I would use the parameters of what was allowed and doable; and in

暢 地 表 達 我自己，不能帶來任 何 誤 解 。有時

Gears）》也是這樣。那時，畫廊已決定要挖空他們的地下室。他們獲得了英國國家樂透的資

could dig the floor, because when I’d gone it was all coming up anyway. So there was an that respect I probably challenge the architecture in that way. Where as in the museum environment, it is one where the architecture is sacrosanct, you can’t put a nail in the

wall, you can’t undo that floorboard; you know it is difficult enough taking a light bulb

out, there are so many health and safety restrictions. So I research all of those things, and just basically determine what the available parameters are, and then work out what I can do within the parameters as I understand them. It is not vandalism, it’s not that I go in

要組成部份嗎？

我 與 一 整 個 團 隊 一 起 工作 ，我 需 要 清 晰 流

候，為了獲 得資 金 支 持，我需要 提 供 繪 畫以

及模型。所以我需要搭建一 個小型模型來說

服不熟悉藝 術語言的人－－比如某地政府部 門－－讓 他 們理 解 、欣 賞，並 願 意出資實 現 某個作品。

and don’t ask, or seek permission, and just assume I can do these things.

我總是儘我所能完成這些事情，以最 好的方

ART.ZIP: How integral is drawing when planning a work?

健身房鍛鍊一樣，我把繪畫視作一種精神鍛

RW: Drawings are vital for me, because number one I am working with teams, and I have got to be able to express my idea sensibly, and in a coherent way, so that there is no

misunderstanding. Sometimes I am invited to make drawings and models to assist in the securing of funding, so you would be asked to make a maquette in order to convince

someone who is not that well versed in the art grammar, that they can say oh I get it, I like it, let’s put money forward into that, so it will be a local authority perhaps.

So these things are done to the best of my ability, in order to convey the best possible

way the concept as it is at that moment in time. The other thing the drawings are done for is, in the same way people go to the gym to work-out, I use drawing as a mental

式傳達 某個 概 念 。另一方面，就像 人們 會去 鍊 。我 必須非常熟 悉 每 一次 創作，因為我不 能 完 全掌 控 整 個 創作 過程 。舉 例 來 說，《 尾 流 》是在 英 格蘭 東北部 城 市 霍 爾（Hull）製

作，在倫敦 完 成 組裝的。因為這不是在 工作

室裡完成的，所以我沒有時間仔細打量它或 做甚麼改 動，我需要一蹴而 就，就像一 個建

築師一樣 。我也不能 浪 費 錢；我不能說 這樣

的 話：“ 我 其 實 並不 喜 歡 中 間 這一 部分，把 這一部份扔了重做。”，那樣就太不專業了， 錢也打了水漂。

limbering up. I have got to get very familiar with my work, because once I am familiar

ART.ZIP: 的確，在實施計劃的過程中，總有你

assembled here. It’s not done in the studio where you get time to look and duel upon it

考慮各種 細節，在製作過程中你也沒有改 變 作

with it, it is handed over. Made in Hull, (referring to the slipstream sculpture), and

and change things, you have got to get it right, like the architect’s got to get it right. And you can’t be seen to be wasting money; you can’t say actually I don’t like the middle, can we get rid of that and do it again, because you look unprofessional, and you are throwing money away at that point.

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不能親身監督的時候。在那些時候你不能回頭 品的機會。你是怎麼處理這些情況的？

R W：在 創 作《 尾 流 》或 其他 於 非 畫 廊 空 間

完成的大型作品的時候，我需要像一名建 築

EXCLUSIVE COLUMN

Slipstream by Richard Wilson at Heathrow’s Terminal 2 | The Queen’s Terminal. Photograher David Levene. © LHR Airports Limited

139 / 140 Slipstream by Richard Wilson at Heathrow’s Terminal 2 | The Queen’s Terminal. Photograher David Levene. © LHR Airports Limited

EXCLUSIVE COLUMN

Turning the Place Over, European Capital of Culture Project, Liverpool Š Tony Wilson Courtesy of Richard Wilson RA

ART.ZIP: There must be a point with certain projects then when you are having

師一 般工作。我不斷地修改我的理 念，進行 細 微的調

to come back to something, and have the opportunity to amend it whilst it is

師 們，然 後再 轉 交 給 製 造 方。到了這個 時 候，我 也 並

to be much less attached to a work, as with Slipstream. Where you are less able under construction. How do you operate under those circumstances?

RW: With Slipstream, and any of the other major works where the sculpture is rooted in a building outside a big gallery idea, it requires of me to work like an

architect; that is you work, and work, and work on the idea, to get it fine-tuned

to what you consider is correct, and then you hand it over to the engineers, and onto the manufacturers; and at that point you don’t lose control on it, but you

obviously can’t chop and change it after that. And when a project like this takes

整，直 到我 覺得 一 切 沒問題了，我 再 把計劃交 給工程

沒有完全失去對作品的控制，但 是在這之後我就不能 做甚麼大改動了。如《尾流》這樣的大型項目一般需要 三年的時間，而對藝 術家 來 說，最緊張的時間應當是

最初的六個月。此後，藝 術家 則要跟 進 和監 督計劃的 執行，確保計劃的順利進行，給出意見，但總的來說，

你不能 挑 戰自己 的 創作 美 學 。你不能 說：“ 我不 喜 歡 我自己之前做的，能不能把這些都扔了。”

three years, you most intensive period is probably the first six months, at the very

ART.ZIP: 在討論公共雕塑的時候，你使用了一系列相互

way those bits work, or can we just clean that there, or I don’t like that bit there,

一個“ 行動主義”藝術家去“感受”一個空間。

beginning. After that you are following it, signing bits off, saying I don’t like the

but essentially you can’t challenge your own aesthetic. You can’t say I don’t like

矛盾的辭彙 。你 提到了不可避免的“妥協”；你希望作 為

the way I have made that work, can I get rid of all of that.

RW：這與 年紀的增長 有關 。有時候你可以很強 勢，在

ART.ZIP: There is something almost contradictory about your lexicon for

有人 走 來 對 你 說 某 個 結 構 不 能 那 麼 高，一定 要 低 一

public sculpture; when you talk of inevitable ‘compromises’, and of your wish for ‘being sympathetic’ to a space; in relation to the artist as ‘actionist’. Are the two mutually exclusive?

RW: It comes with age, you start to realise that sometimes you can be a bit

belligerent, and you think the idea is right; and you have tried and tested it on

your models and drawings, and then someone will come along and say it can’t be that high, it’s got to drop down a bit so you can see the exist sign, and you drop it, and you think actually I am glad that surfaced because it could have been a bold, brisk attempt at saying, here I am, flying up and away, when in

fact there is a subtly aswell, when you reduce and do those things. Sometimes fortuitously it’s a blessing in disguise, and you rarely say I am glad that went

that way, because I had got it wrong; you keep quiet about it, and you pretend it was always intended. But obviously artists have to work in that way all the

time. I think everyone has to give and take in that situation. The building has to give a bit, but the sculpture has to give a bit back aswell.

ART.ZIP: You have referred to the significance of scale in your work, how important was American sculpture to you, as an influence?

RW: I really used the library, and I became very involved in the American

artists at art college. Very involved in Land Art, and I become very involved with scale. (Richard) Serra, Mark di Suvero, and some of the other big land

artists, Walter de Maria, Michael Heizer among them. And I came to Gordon Matta Clark very late, after college. But that kind of bravado, the idea that

scale and the very American idea that rather than use the path you know, get off the path and make your own trail. That idea that you have something to say, say it; and don’t follow the conservative trend, break away and be your

own person; be your own ideas. And I always thought there was something

wrong, that if anyone was making work like you that that was wrong; and for me it was about being unique.

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進 行 過各種 測試 後，你 相 信自己的想法 是 對的。然而

點，否則 人們 將 無 法看見安 全出口標 誌，在 接 納了他

的意見 之後，你 會感到慶幸，因為這作品不僅 與藝 術 表 達的自由性有關，在你對其進行改 動的時候也需要

進行某 種 細 緻的考慮。有時候 這 讓 人 感到幸運，但你 不會說“我很高興 我 進 行了這樣的改 動，因為我在一 開始的時候弄錯了”；你不會去討論這件事，而會假裝

你 本來就 是 這樣考慮的。當然，藝 術家 經常要以 這樣 的方式去工作。我想，在那樣的狀況下，每個人都需要

做出妥協，建 築 需要做出妥協，雕 塑也同樣需要做出 妥協。

ART.ZIP: 回到關於作品規模的問題：美國雕塑對你有著 重要的影響嗎？

RW：我對美國雕塑流派進行過大量的研究，在求學時

期我也經常與許多美國藝 術家交流。我與大地藝 術運 動的關係非常緊密，也自然地經常考慮藝 術創作規模 的問題 。我接 觸到了包括瓦爾 特·德·瑪麗 亞（Walter

de Maria）、邁克爾·海澤（Michael Heizer）、理查 德·塞拉（Richard Serra）以及馬克·迪·蘇維洛（Mark

di Suvero）等重要的大地藝術雕塑家。在藝術學院畢 業之後我才遇到戈登·馬塔·克拉克（Gordon

Matta

Clark）。他們的勇氣、氣魄、不走尋常路的美國精神、 直接了當的自我表 達、不守舊而強調突 破的原則…我

那時 總覺得如果有甚麼人像你一樣 創作的話，那一定

是有甚麼地方不對勁。對我 來說，藝 術讓 我成 為一 個 獨特的人。