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T Burton

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New Geek The "SWISS MADE" debate...Invicta vs. Omega

I've read many posts about the issue of "Swiss Made" so I thought I would share this. I had an interesting thing happen the other day; I received my Omega Planet Ocean Chronograph back from a complete factory service in Switzerland. When it was returned it came back with a brand new OEM deployment buckle. To my surprise, there was a little tag attached to the buckle that said "Thailand"! Guess someone forgot to remove it. So it looks like the prestigious Omega does a little farming out too. I'm not trying to say that Invicta is Omega but I can get 10 really nice Invicta's for the price of this one Omega. Have a great day and enjoy your watches! Todd

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The "SWISS MADE" debate...Invicta vs....

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General Invicta Watch Discussions Bezor

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08-302010 1091 05:09 AM


Add T Burton to Your Contacts #2 Today, 05:13 AM Join Date: Jan 2009 jackievictor

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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the info. __________________

Victor

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Find all posts by jackievictor Add jackievictor to Your Contacts #3 Today, 05:19 AM Join Date: Nov 2009 DPM Location: Cumming, GA Senior Member Posts: 1,288 Super Geek Real Name: Dan

Thats just good stuff! Thanks! __________________ Patience is a virtue few WatchGeeks have...

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Join Date: Mar 2009 strutn45 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Senior Member Posts: 9,910 True WatchGeek Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

Oops! __________________

"WHO DAT"

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Join Date: Oct 2008 RGILLER

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That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing...Roy __________________ God Bless the USA

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Hey Todd.........

wild, I aspire to an Omega. I could live with a Thai buckle! Thanks for posting Todd! rod-

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this is what i keep telling people.everybody lies,& nothing is 100% of what it's supposed to be. __________________


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Interesting Indeed! Thanks for posting !

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That explains why Invicta is a real force to be reckoned with in the industry. Invicta apparently don't take the extra dollars from the consumer the other brands take. They simply just sell a lot more watches for a smaller profit per watch and come out ahead all day long. Not bad for them nor us!!! Thanks for the info... __________________


ky View Public Profile Send a private message to ky Find all posts by ky Add ky to Your Contacts #10 Today, 05:51 AM Join Date: Dec 2009 Russell3 Location: East Fallowfield PA Senior Member Posts: 553 Veteran Geek Real Name: Russell

Its no secret that Omega farms certain things out, after all the are Swatch Group that HAD factories in china


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Everybody farms out something I don't care what they tell you. Do you think they are going to actually pay someone big money to stand there and make clasps when they can get them knocked out for pennies apiece in Asia? __________________

Castlk


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Very interesting‌. well as long as it was not an OEM Asian movement they replaced. __________________

Sir watch


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I guess none of us should really be surprised at this revelation. Thanks for the info Todd. __________________ Feel like your eyeballin' me,dawg!

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Add floormonkey to Your Contacts #14 Today, 06:04 AM Join Date: May 2009 reliefcp Location: Everett Wa. Senior Member Posts: 3,996 Master WatchGeek Real Name: C.J.

All is within the guidelines of the Swiss Federation in which Omega is a member.Same with diamonds and other non Swiss materials.Makes sense and I have no problem with it as long as whats inside the watch is Swiss Made and they arent putting something on the dial that isnt inside the watch.JMO

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Join Date: Jul 2009 BocephusSTL Location: St. Louis, MO Senior Member Posts: 999 Veteran Geek Real Name: Larry

Remember, only 51% of the parts have to be Swiss made. Still, I'm sure any executive from Omega who knew this happened would be seriously "PO'd" to have their reputation tarnished by such a terrible oversight. __________________ Quote: Originally Posted by jskelton You will not become a ninja by wearing one. You will not become a trained soldier by wearing one. You will not become a sex-crazed spy by wearing one.....

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Today, 06:28 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 hweight Location: Napa Valley, CA Member Posts: 68 Member Geek Real Name: Mark Marcus

Is there anything 100% swiss made anymore?

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Thanks for passing this information on very interesting. __________________

Big Joe like's watches and good friends. Take care and be safe. [ Big Joe ]

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Quote:


Originally Posted by hweight Is there anything 100% swiss made anymore? There is and there is certification that, among other things, requires 100% swiss made. I forget the title of that certification, though.

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Quote: Originally Posted by soberdave09 this is what i keep telling people.everybody lies,& nothing is 100% of what it's supposed to be. Yes, everyone lies, but just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it right.

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Not a surprise to me at all actually. __________________ Not the official Invicta complain Dept

RipitRon


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Quote: Originally Posted by RipitRon Not a surprise to me at all actually. I second this...actually not too big of a deal really ...but interesting..thanks __________________


"JUST LET ME TRY THE WATCH ON"

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sect404 Member Member Geek

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What bothers me more is how the Invicta Reserve line was supposed to be 100% Swiss Made and are no longer that way. You have to look for the 'F' denoting 'Far East' in the model number. That means either


"swiss PARTS mov't" or "swiss mov't" and assmbled in a far east factory to cut labor costs...but usually quality as well. :/

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Jim has mentioned in the past where he spoke of one very prominent factory in Hong Kong,that if their client list ever got released that it would cause an uproar in the Swiss watch industry

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I hope all manufacturing moves out of Switzerland and into just-as-capable-but-way-cheaper manufacturing in Asia.

krayziehustler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hweight Is there anything 100% swiss made anymore? Marathon makes 100% ones, but then again those are made via military specs and contracts, so they are required to __________________ I'd rather be a lion for a day than a lamb that lives forever - Canibus krayziehustler View Public Profile Send a private message to krayziehustler Find all posts by krayziehustler Add krayziehustler to Your Contacts


#27 Today, 07:29 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Virginia /Washington D.C. Posts: 998 Real Name: Jeff Davekos

desert rex Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Originally Posted by krayziehustler Marathon makes 100% ones, but then again those are made via military specs and contracts, so they are required to The Government will allow a partial or complete Hong Kong manufacturing. desert rex View Public Profile Send a private message to desert rex Find all posts by desert rex Add desert rex to Your Contacts #28 Today, 07:37 AM

Rog1

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It looks like all Mfgs. are farming out in order to compete.....the world is a smaller place....Everyone join in...."It's a small world after all.....It's a small........." __________________


I've been to the top of the mountain, and it's wet!!! Rog1 View Public Profile Send a private message to Rog1 Find all posts by Rog1 Add Rog1 to Your Contacts #29 Today, 07:39 AM

Hotspur Senior Member Super Geek

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As long as they adhere to Swiss Watch Federation rules, I'm fine with it. Was there ever a time that Swiss watches had to be manufactured 100% in Switzerland of 100% Swiss made parts? Seriously, was there? After all, there are not many steel mills in Switzerland. Suspect that at one time, prior to WWII, those bracelets were manufactured in lower labor cost Italy, Spain or Belgium. __________________

They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts #30 Today, 07:41 AM


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Thanks for reporting that discovery. We'll keep our eyes peeled. __________________ "Don't sweat the small stuff?!? With watches, it's ALL about tiny, important small stuff." Dave B View Public Profile Send a private message to Dave B Send email to Dave B Visit Dave B's homepage! Find all posts by Dave B Add Dave B to Your Contacts #31 Today, 07:56 AM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 576 Real Name: James

jade330i Senior Member Veteran Geek

Just like in OZ.....nevermind that (tag) person behind the curtain....... __________________

More government is not the cure for the defect of less personal responsibility, it's an enabler; if people aren't accountable for their own actions then who is?" jade330i


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JDinNOLA Senior Member Super Geek

You are definately right about one thing. I would be happy to give you ten nice Invictas for your Planet Ocean. JDinNOLA View Public Profile Send a private message to JDinNOLA Find all posts by JDinNOLA Add JDinNOLA to Your Contacts #33 Today, 08:14 AM

MrAutoGuy Senior Member Senior Geek

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Welcome to the era of cheap labor. I've also heard some rumors that the ETA movement will be sourced in asia at some point in future. Thats why "Swiss Made" means nothing to me nowadays..not just for Invicta either. If I like the watch (design/price wise), I go for it, regardless of where its built/assembled. Same goes for "Reserve vs non-Reserve" time pieces. __________________ Current: Seiko Frankenmonster, Seiko 007, Orient Big Mako, Citizen Orca, SANIII Auto, Invicta Grand Diver, SeaGull dress, G-Shock 'BumbleBee' MrAutoGuy View Public Profile Send a private message to MrAutoGuy Find all posts by MrAutoGuy


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407guy Senior Member Senior Geek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by T Burton I'm not trying to say that Invicta is Omega but I can get 10 really nice Invicta's for the price of this one Omega. Have a great day and enjoy your watches! Todd Nah, I'd rather have one Omega. But that's me, quality over quantity.

. __________________ Don't get the signature line requirement... I've seen many that are more than 2 lines... 407guy View Public Profile Send a private message to 407guy Send email to 407guy Find all posts by 407guy Add 407guy to Your Contacts #35 Today, 08:15 AM

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Male_Hor Senior Member Super Geek

I am gonna see a firing squad for this comment but it is what I firmly believe: I own Accutron, Philip, Jaques Lemans Geneve, Invicta, Renato, and SWI watches in the over $1800 retail catagory. That being said, I have handled standard production models of Omega, Rolex, and Breitling watches and examined them in detail. NOTHING about the exterior finish and fit justifies the the exhorbitant cost difference! IMHO. Now, "under the hood" is a different story and it's the above par craftsmanship of the movements and the heritage of original design and inovation that justifies the investment. __________________

"Hold that thought, brain! I'll be right back!" Male_Hor View Public Profile Send a private message to Male_Hor Send email to Male_Hor Find all posts by Male_Hor Add Male_Hor to Your Contacts #37 Today, 08:31 AM Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hamilton, NJ Posts: 331 Real Name: Michael

TEchG33k Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by hweight Is there anything 100% swiss made anymore? Swiss babies! LOL! Oh and the Swiss Guard at the Vatican. __________________ "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill


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bichondaddy1057 Senior Member Super Geek

No surprise to me....everyone outsources to Asia now days. __________________

Larry in Spring, Tx

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jackievictor Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinNOLA You are definately right about one thing. I would be happy to give you ten nice Invictas for your Planet Ocean. I thought the same thing. I will give him 11 Invictas for his PO. __________________

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lunchbox Member Member Geek

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You have to remember that the only thing the swiss fed. cares about is the watch head. There are swiss made pieces that come with Italian leather straps.


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strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinNOLA You are definately right about one thing. I would be happy to give you ten nice Invictas for your Planet Ocean. Quote:

Originally Posted by jackievictor I thought the same thing. I will give him 11 Invictas for his PO.

Wow man. __________________

"WHO DAT"

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CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

That's good that you're not saying that Invicta is Omega, because it's not even close. But Invicta does make some nice watches for the money. __________________

Hot fun in the summertime! CharlieB View Public Profile Send a private message to CharlieB Find all posts by CharlieB Add CharlieB to Your Contacts #43 Today, 09:02 AM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Brooklyn,New York Posts: 185 Real Name: formerly (gabrielgman2) Gabe

Gwatchfanatic Senior Member Senior Geek


Quote:

Originally Posted by 407guy Nah, I'd rather have one Omega. But that's me, quality over quantity.

. I'm with you on that one, 1 Omega over say 20 Invictas any day. JMO. __________________

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TM Maker Senior Member Super Geek

What bothers me is how quickly people are willing to part with big bucks for the so-called prestige pieces that are doing the same things (i.e. farming out) our favorite brands do. TM Maker View Public Profile Send a private message to TM Maker Find all posts by TM Maker


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jade330i Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by TM Maker What bothers me is how quickly people are willing to part with big bucks for the so-called prestige pieces that are doing the same things (i.e. farming out) our favorite brands do. .....and BINGO was his name'o..... __________________

More government is not the cure for the defect of less personal responsibility, it's an enabler; if people aren't accountable for their own actions then who is?" jade330i View Public Profile Send a private message to jade330i Send email to jade330i Find all posts by jade330i Add jade330i to Your Contacts #46 Today, 09:16 AM

Runnin' Ute

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It is a buckle/clasp for cryin' out loud. This is not a big deal. I am sure that very few watches from even fewer manufacturers build a watch that is 100% Swiss Made. In this day and age it just isn't cost effective. Especially if they can save a boatload of cash on the


production end and get the same (or similar) price (and quality) out of the watch and still meet the Swiss Federation guidelines. __________________

Brad "Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of." - Benjamin Franklin Runnin' Ute View Public Profile Send a private message to Runnin' Ute Send email to Runnin' Ute Find all posts by Runnin' Ute Add Runnin' Ute to Your Contacts #47 Today, 09:34 AM

T Burton

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That's the beauty of this whole thing, different strokes for different folks. Only point I wanted to make was that there is really not the huge difference that is being paid for. I was at the local Rolex dealer the other day and a man came in with a Datejust that had stopped running. It was a broken main spring. The man had owned the Rolex for 4 years and had spent $350 for a repair just after his purchase (pre-owned from this same retailer) and now he was going to get hit up for another $500-$600. In the same breath the saleman was explaining how Rolex was one of the best watches in the world! What? I personally would have a problem with "one of the best watches in the world" needing $850+ in repairs in a 5 year period. I've been buying, selling and collecting high end Swiss watches for 16 years and within the last year I was introduced to Invicta. I'm sold on the Invicta Reserve line and Renato. Yes, they are not the same but they are not worth 10X+ more. If one of the Invicta's stops working I'll use my 5 year warranty or just buy a new one (or 3 for the same as a Rolex service). BTW, anyone who wants to offer me 10+ watches (Invicta Reserve line, Renato, etc.) for the Planet Ocean, send me a PM with what you're offering. T Burton View Public Profile


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imawatchgeek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hitch There is and there is certification that, among other things, requires 100% swiss made. I forget the title of that certification, though. Its COSC certified ( Contr么le Officiel Suisse des Chronom猫tres) and cost a heck of a lot of money to do so!!! __________________

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the B

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Very interesting thank for the post

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Lunerdustbunnies

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Omegaman68 Yes, everyone lies, but just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it right. You got that right! __________________ Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And love your neighbor as your self. Have a great day fellow Geeks!

Hotspur Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by imawatchgeek Its COSC certified ( Contr么le Officiel Suisse des Chronom猫tres) and cost a heck of a lot of money to do so!!! Actually it's AOSC - Appellation d'Origine Suisse Certifiee'. COSC is the accuracy testing organization. __________________

They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts #52 Today, 10:07 AM


Lunerdustbunnies

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 2,634 Real Name: Chris

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Male_Hor I am gonna see a firing squad for this comment but it is what I firmly believe: I own Accutron, Philip, Jaques Lemans Geneve, Invicta, Renato, and SWI watches in the over $1800 retail catagory. That being said, I have handled standard production models of Omega, Rolex, and Breitling watches and examined them in detail. NOTHING about the exterior finish and fit justifies the the exhorbitant cost difference! IMHO. Now, "under the hood" is a different story and it's the above par craftsmanship of the movements and the heritage of original design and inovation that justifies the investment. Let's say, for the sake of argument, you take a Standard, intro level Omega that has nothing extraordinary going on in terms of the exterior case; is Swiss Made movement in the Omega that much better than a Valjoux 7750 found in a SAN IV or a SAS or even a SWI with a V7751? How many of the 1st Run SAS 7750's would it take to match up to one standard intro level Omega? __________________ Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And love your neighbor as your self. Have a great day fellow Geeks! Lunerdustbunnies View Public Profile Send a private message to Lunerdustbunnies Find all posts by Lunerdustbunnies Add Lunerdustbunnies to Your Contacts #53 Today, 10:25 AM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 576 Real Name: James

jade330i Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Burton That's the beauty of this whole thing, different strokes for different folks. Only point I wanted to make was that there is really not the huge difference that is being paid for. I was at the local Rolex dealer the other day and a man came in with a Datejust that had


stopped running. It was a broken main spring. The man had owned the Rolex for 4 years and had spent $350 for a repair just after his purchase (pre-owned from this same retailer) and now he was going to get hit up for another $500-$600. In the same breath the saleman was explaining how Rolex was one of the best watches in the world! What? I personally would have a problem with "one of the best watches in the world" needing $850+ in repairs in a 5 year period. I happen to have a Sub with a broken main spring. It's been sitting in my watch case for about two years. I stopped wearing it regularly three years ago anyway so I haven't bothered taking it in to get worked on; for all the reasons you listed it will be a l-o-n-g time before I do. __________________

More government is not the cure for the defect of less personal responsibility, it's an enabler; if people aren't accountable for their own actions then who is?" jade330i View Public Profile Send a private message to jade330i Send email to jade330i Find all posts by jade330i Add jade330i to Your Contacts #54 Today, 10:57 AM Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Machester, Ct. Posts: 2,382 Real Name: Joe H

JoeH

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Quote:

Originally Posted by T Burton I've read many posts about the issue of "Swiss Made" so I thought I would share this. I had an interesting thing happen the other day; I received my Omega Planet Ocean Chronograph back from a complete factory service in Switzerland. When it was returned it came back with a brand new OEM deployment buckle. To my surprise, there was a little tag attached to the buckle that said "Thailand"! Guess someone forgot to remove it. So it looks like the prestigious Omega does a little farming out too. I'm not trying to say that Invicta is Omega but I can get 10 really nice Invicta's for the price of this one Omega.


Have a great day and enjoy your watches! Todd That shows you Omega is on there game.... In a full service you got a new deployment.. When I send my watches back to Protime they buff out my bands... __________________ Joe

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4merdep Senior Member Senior Geek

Hmmm...buckle/clasp made in Thailand. There's just no way around this kind of stuff these days. I just hope that the engine is what they claim it to be. If they can outsource the band, it's not too far off to outsource the case either. I'm guessing.. __________________


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Horsetrack

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ouchhhhhh

like BMW..Subaru __________________

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Calvin

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It just shows you that most people only find value is something if other people tell them that is worth something. My value comes from me liking it. I could care less what someone else thinks about what I want to buy. Quote:

Originally Posted by jade330i .....and BINGO was his name'o..... Calvin View Public Profile Send a private message to Calvin Find all posts by Calvin Add Calvin to Your Contacts #58 Today, 11:56 AM

BocephusSTL

Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 999 Real Name: Larry

Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin It just shows you that most people only find value is something if other people tell them that is worth something. My value comes from me liking it. I could care less what someone else thinks about what I want to buy. I couldn't have said it better. If I like something, I don't really care where it's made, as long as it is of high quality and the manufacturer is honest about its origins and/or designations. Of course I don't expect a detailed list of where each part came from - that would be unreasonable. All I care about is knowing whether it's a true Swiss-made, Swiss parts, or Asian movement; where it's assembled; and if it has any special designations/certifications (i.e. COSC). I want to know these things not because I limit myself to only Swiss Made watches (I don't), but because it helps me determine what I'm willing to pay for any given timepiece, whether it's Swiss Made, Swiss parts, or Asian built. Again, I don't really care where it's built. I just don't want to pay the Swiss premium for something that doesn't meet Swiss Made guidelines. __________________ Quote:

Originally Posted by jskelton You will not become a ninja by wearing one. You will not become a trained soldier by wearing one. You will not become a sex-crazed spy by wearing one.....


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nferr

Senior Member Veteran Geek

Who ever said that a clasp has to be made in Switzerland in order for a watch to be certified as Swiss Made? I don't get the point of the entire post. nferr View Public Profile Send a private message to nferr Find all posts by nferr Add nferr to Your Contacts #60 Today, 12:05 PM Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Machester, Ct. Posts: 2,382 Real Name: Joe H

JoeH

Senior Member Super Geek

Here is the Swiss Made article to help you understand...... Swiss Made From Chinese Watch Industry Wiki Jump to: navigation, search "Swiss Made" - The Little White Lie of the Watch Industry The phrase "Swiss Made" on the dial of a watch seems so simple - the watch was made in Switzerland. But what exactly does "made" mean? It's not as easy to pin down as you might think. Certainly the raw materials were mined elsewhere... what other components of the watchmaking process can be outsourced before a watch can no longer be considered "Swiss"? As outsourcing to component suppliers becomes ever more common, the legal definition of "Swiss Made" has become the fuel for continual debate.


Legal definition According to FÊdÊration de l'industrie Horlogère Suisse (FHS), of which all Swiss watch manufacturers are members, a movement is considered to be "Swiss" if: 1.it has been assembled in Switzerland; 2.it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and 3.the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly. A watch can legally be labeled "Swiss" or "Swiss Made" if: 1.its movement is Swiss; 2.its movement is cased up in Switzerland; and 3.the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland. Watches assembled outside of Switzerland but containing "Swiss" movements may use the label "Swiss Movement". These definitions are accepted by consumer protection agencies in some, but not all, other nations. It is important to note that the above requirement specifies that least 50% of total value, not quantity, of movement components must be of Swiss manufacture. Given the low cost of Chinese labor, as compared to Swiss labor, a fair amount of Asian components are turning up in "Swiss" movements these days. An interesting example of a "Swiss" movement with a substantial non-Swiss content is the Claro-Semag calibre CL 888. This movement is in fact the Chinese Sea-Gull calibre ST16, refinished by Claro-Semag of Switzerland with sufficient Swiss content (by value) that it may be legally installed in watches signed "Swiss Movement". Going one step farther, Montres Edouard Lauzieres of Switzerland re-refinish the SEMAG CL 888 and redesignate it as calibre EL-18, claiming (legally) their in-house calibre uses a genuine Swiss movement blank. Edouard Lauzieres watches fitted with the CL 888 are marked "Swiss Made" in accordance with Swiss law, despite the Chinese origins of their movements. Related Definitions Fans of US focussed international watch brands such as Invicta and Stuhrling Original have occsaionally expressed confusion over some of the country-of-origin terminology used, particularly with reference to the word 'Swiss'. Below is a rough guide to some of the terms used: Swiss Made - the entire watch was assembled in Switzerland such that at least 50% of the total component value is Swiss, and the movement is a certified Swiss Movement. Swiss - when positioned below 6 o'clock on the dial, on most markets this is legally equivalent to 'Swiss Made' (see above). The owners of the Invicta brand have recently admitted that their own use of 'Swiss' is not equivalent to 'Swiss Made' (see link below) as


they are not a member of the FHS. Swiss Movement - at least 50% of the component value of the movement is Swiss and the movement was assembled and inspected in Switzerland, however the rest of the watch and final assembly are not Swiss. Assume final assembly in China. Swiss Movt - it might be either a Swiss Movement, i.e. finished in Switzerland, or a Swiss Parts Movement (aka Swiss Ebauche Movement), i.e. finished and assembled outside of Switzerland but using Swiss parts. For the US market the movement itself may be labeled 'China'. (Swiss Movt was a common discription used in Hong Kong watches in years past) Swiss Parts Movement - some Swiss parts were used in a Chinese assembled movement. The movement will almost certainly be labeled 'China'. Swiss Comp (i.e. Swiss Components) - some Swiss components have been included in some part of the watch, not necessarily the movement. (Swiss Comp is a new designation invented by Invicta. It has not been used by other brands) Any other usage of the word 'Swiss' has no particular meaning with regards country of origin e.g. brand or company names like Technica Swiss Ebauches or Swissebauches Ltd. History In a recent GQ Magazine article entitled "How to Buy a Watch" the author says that buying "Swiss Made" matters because, "These days you can buy a watch from Germany, France, Russia, or Japan and it’ll probably serve you just as well. But when you invest in a watch that’s been made in Geneva, hand-assembled by artisans whose grandfathers taught them and whose ancestors crafted timepieces for Napoleon and his ilk, what you’re buying into is history. And tradition. And in watchmaking, that’s what it’s all about." History, tradition. Marques such as Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin may have these in spades, but the Swiss watch industry is vastly larger than the handful of boutique houses which pose as its vanguard. When other prominent Swiss brands such as Rolex, Cartier, Omega and Tag Hauer produce millions of watches a year, are their messages of history and tradition worth their weight, or are they little more than marketing propaganda? The Swiss watch industry began in earnest during the close of the 18th century, with volume production of pocket watches appearing at the turn of the 19th century. By mid-century however, American advances in production and technology posed a real challenge in the marketplace to Swiss timekeepers. Wikipedia states that, "Whereas Swiss manufacture was stammered by its piecemeal production system, which was the most widespread form of production, the American watch producers brought together the entire production of watches under one roof. The American System, as it came to be known, employed standardized, machine-made parts along with improved machines and tools. They thus, could reach a generally higher level of precision. Their chronometers were better than best produced during this nadir of Swiss production." Ray MacDonald, a Moderator on the WatchUSeek Forums, elaborates further, noting: "In 1871 the Swiss were compelled by US law to put "Swiss Made" on their watch movements. They tried to hide it in a lot of damaskeening or in an obscure spot but it had to


be there. "This is because American mass produced watches were kicking some serious Swiss butt in terms of quality and performance. The Swiss resorted to faking American designs and names to stay alive in the US market. Finally they gave up and for years were a non-factor. "It was only after the Swiss adopted and refined US factory methods - and moved away from cottage industries - that they were able to compete effectively. That's when "Swiss Made" became something to talk about. "Whenever a country stuck to local artisans making a few non standardized watches, its horological industry has gone into irreversible decline. 19th century Britain is the best example." Ray further notes that, "Swiss fakes [of American watches] are covered in detail in Shugart's 'Complete Price Guide to Watches.' I have the 2003 edition and there it's found on pp 93-94. The 19th century Swiss difficulty in competing with the Americans is found in Chapters 19-20 of Lande's 'Revolution in Time' (2000). The decline of British watchmaking is described in Chapter 17 of the same book." The Swiss watch industry did not rise to global market dominance until the post-war twentieth century. According to Wikipedia, "During World War II, Swiss neutrality permitted the watch industry to continue making consumer time keeping apparatus while the major nations of the world shifted timing apparatus production to timing devices for military ordnance. "As a result, the Swiss watch Industry enjoyed a well protected monopoly. The industry prospered in the absence of any real competition. Thus, prior to the 1970s {and the Quartz watch revolution}, the Swiss watch industry had 90% of the world watch market." Links http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php http://www.edouardlauzieres.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_crisis http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?p=1645308#poststop Retrieved from "http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Swiss_Made"Views PageDiscussionView sourceHistoryPersonal tools Log in / create accountNavigation Main Page Table of Contents Recent changes Random page Help Donations Search Toolbox What links here Related changes Upload file Special pages


Printable version Permanent link This page was last modified 02:11, 4 June 2010. __________________ Joe

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T Burton

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 4

Junior Member New Geek

If the clasp is from Thailand, what else is?

There are many posts concerning the SWISS MADE label on some Invictas and the fact that they outsource some of the components. The point is, even high-end companies do this and this is not exclusive to Invicta or any other value brand. Also, you may not be getting everything you were expecting when you pay for the premium brands. If the clasp is outsourced, what else? The bracelet, the case, the hands, the dial? Most likely everything except the movement and it's assembly. Would you really still pay multiple thousands for a Rolex, Breitling or other premium brand if you knew it was all made in Asia except the movement? T Burton View Public Profile Send a private message to T Burton Find all posts by T Burton Add T Burton to Your Contacts #62 Today, 12:27 PM


Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Machester, Ct. Posts: 2,382 Real Name: Joe H

JoeH

Senior Member Super Geek

I agree that almost every watch brand does out source to be able to stay in business because of the competition... The bottem line is you get what you pay for... And yes there are alot of asian movements that are just as good as a swiss... But with a swiss masterpiece you are getting craftmanship that has been handed down for centuries... __________________ Joe

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Russell3 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Fallowfield PA Posts: 553 Real Name: Russell


Originally Posted by hweight Is there anything 100% swiss made anymore? Yes! There are still a few all swiss made watch companies Russell3 View Public Profile Send a private message to Russell3 Find all posts by Russell3 Add Russell3 to Your Contacts #64 Today, 12:40 PM

Russell3

Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Fallowfield PA Posts: 553 Real Name: Russell

Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieB That's good that you're not saying that Invicta is Omega, because it's not even close. But Invicta does make some nice watches for the money. +1 Russell3 View Public Profile Send a private message to Russell3 Find all posts by Russell3 Add Russell3 to Your Contacts #65 Today, 12:58 PM

imawatchgeek

Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 1,671 Real Name: Mark

Senior Member Super Geek

wow... Its more difficult than we think... Are the swiss outsourcing to the Asians and then running adding changes and calling it swiss as well? __________________


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PUCKSK8R

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: On the Jersey Shore Posts: 3,555 Real Name: Daren

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberdave09 this is what i keep telling people.everybody lies,& nothing is 100% of what it's supposed to be. Where is the lie Dave? I am not seeing it here on this one? I think most GEEKS here understand the Swiss Made guidelines. But to the novice, what does the word "made" really mean? I could see this to be confusing to this demographic, but the majority of those who are in the know are in the know. Did I just answer my own question? __________________ Class...Quelle heure est il? - Madame Eno (My 8th grade French Teacher) PUCKSK8R View Public Profile Send a private message to PUCKSK8R Find all posts by PUCKSK8R Add PUCKSK8R to Your Contacts #67 Today, 01:39 PM


Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 19

yanksmvp Junior Member New Geek

Quality Control?

How's that for quality control? If the Swiss can't remember to remove a tag from Thailand what does that say for Swiss watchmaking? I have a strange feeling that a lot of these companies are trying to incorporate the best of both worlds. All you have to do is bring Asian watchmakers to Switzerland, cut your labor costs by about 80% and you have Swiss made. This isn't rocket Science - it's common sense I have had more problems with my swiss made products but my seiko's never seem to have an issue.

food for thought! yanksmvp View Public Profile Send a private message to yanksmvp Find all posts by yanksmvp Add yanksmvp to Your Contacts #68 Today, 01:59 PM Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Woodlands, TX Posts: 2,718 Real Name: Matt

watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur Actually it's AOSC - Appellation d'Origine Suisse Certifiee'. COSC is the accuracy testing organization.


To be even more specific and precise, AOSC is something which Bedat & Co. has capitalized on to market their timepieces as purely 100% Swiss. Not saying they are not, but it is not a guarantee. Patek Philippe no longer uses the "Geneva" marking, rather they engrave their movements with the Patek "crest" as a sign of quality which is supposed to be even more Swiss than Swiss. Again, a tactic to differentiate themselves from other luxury Swiss brands and, IMO, a brilliant marketing move. __________________ "All is possible for those who don't quit before the miracle." -personal affirmation watchdude1 View Public Profile Send a private message to watchdude1 Find all posts by watchdude1 Add watchdude1 to Your Contacts #69 Today, 02:03 PM Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: El Paso, TX. Posts: 1,583 Real Name: Bob T.

salesguru Senior Member Super Geek

Not surprising at all... __________________ Life is Good. Especially when you're wearing a nice watch. salesguru View Public Profile Send a private message to salesguru Find all posts by salesguru Add salesguru to Your Contacts #70 Today, 02:04 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: from ny live in g.a Posts: 3,851

BIGNOIZE Senior Member Master WatchGeek


Aww man no pic? __________________ L.T.R LEARN, TEACH, REPEAT BIGNOIZE View Public Profile Send a private message to BIGNOIZE Find all posts by BIGNOIZE Add BIGNOIZE to Your Contacts #71 Today, 02:10 PM

PUCKSK8R

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: On the Jersey Shore Posts: 3,555 Real Name: Daren

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanksmvp How's that for quality control? If the Swiss can't remember to remove a tag from Thailand what does that say for Swiss watchmaking? I have a strange feeling that a lot of these companies are trying to incorporate the best of both worlds. All you have to do is bring Asian watchmakers to Switzerland, cut your labor costs by about 80% and you have Swiss made. This isn't rocket Science - it's common sense I have had more problems with my swiss made products but my seiko's never seem to have an issue.

food for thought! I am going to respectfully disagree with you on this one my Friend as if it were that eay don't you think this would have aready been done? I am also sorry to hear of your troubles with your Swiss Made pieces, but you are comparing apples and oranges here. My Ford Explorer Limited hasn't had one, not one issue since I owned it now for 3 years. Now compare this to my Jaguar XJ8L that has seen some time at my local dealer...... At the end of the day one will ever mistaken the two vehicles with regards fit to and finish based solely on cost of ownership. __________________ Class...Quelle heure est il? - Madame Eno (My 8th grade French Teacher) PUCKSK8R View Public Profile


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stormin Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Burton That's the beauty of this whole thing, different strokes for different folks. Only point I wanted to make was that there is really not the huge difference that is being paid for. I was at the local Rolex dealer the other day and a man came in with a Datejust that had stopped running. It was a broken main spring. The man had owned the Rolex for 4 years and had spent $350 for a repair just after his purchase (pre-owned from this same retailer) and now he was going to get hit up for another $500-$600. In the same breath the saleman was explaining how Rolex was one of the best watches in the world! What? I personally would have a problem with "one of the best watches in the world" needing $850+ in repairs in a 5 year period. I've been buying, selling and collecting high end Swiss watches for 16 years and within the last year I was introduced to Invicta. I'm sold on the Invicta Reserve line and Renato. Yes, they are not the same but they are not worth 10X+ more. If one of the Invicta's stops working I'll use my 5 year warranty or just buy a new one (or 3 for the same as a Rolex service). BTW, anyone who wants to offer me 10+ watches (Invicta Reserve line, Renato, etc.) for the Planet Ocean, send me a PM with what you're offering. Lets see if you get any offers....not, all talk. stormin View Public Profile Send a private message to stormin Find all posts by stormin Add stormin to Your Contacts #73 Today, 03:49 PM

jeff meade Senior Member Senior Geek

Same old song ---------- just a different dance !!!

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 239


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Knifemaker

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Live Free or Die NH Posts: 420

Senior Member Senior Geek

My Rolex Sub and every Oyster band I ever seen looks like it was made anywhere but Swiss! Even entry level Omega's Look at the stuff Renato and Invicta bracelets (we know where they are made) they are bust'in out, best in the buss. my Renato Cyclops or SWI SAS Sub IV will tell you themself.... Look ay a Oyster

. __________________

Stebbins Handmade Damascus Knives for the serious collectors Knifemaker View Public Profile Send a private message to Knifemaker Send email to Knifemaker Visit Knifemaker's homepage! Find all posts by Knifemaker Add Knifemaker to Your Contacts #75 Today, 04:00 PM


Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 224 Real Name: Jon

jwin66 Senior Member Senior Geek

Not surprised in the least. The Omega Planet Ocean is a masterpiece of a watch..but apparently Swiss law even allows top echelon watches like Omega to take advantage of cheap labor costs in the far east in order to keep costs down and stay competitive. Jon

bwag829

Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: West Springfield, MA Posts: 2,505 Real Name: Bill

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Swiss Made - Has this been discussed here before. I can't recall. bwag829 View Public Profile Send a private message to bwag829 Find all posts by bwag829 Add bwag829 to Your Contacts #77 Today, 04:40 PM Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,922 Real Name: Special K ;)

abduksion Senior Member True WatchGeek

Not to burst anyone's bubble, But I would rather have one expensive Omega then 4 cheaper Invictas hands down any day of the week.


__________________

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AclayPS3 Senior Member Senior Geek

For a watch to be "Swiss Made", only 50/51% of the overall components must be Swiss, so this no surprise to me... and since it was just the clasp, I don't think it's a real big deal because 316L Steel from the clasp is gonna be the same 316L steel wherever you source it from and no one is going to know the difference. I think it's kinda lame that these high end Swiss Watch company's charge top dollar for their product whenever they probably aren't anymore Swiss Made (in terms of % of Swiss components) than an Invicta Reserve...however, for some high end brands, I think it's worth the extra money to get something like a Brietling for instance, because the quality control is very high and there's quite a bit of modification and calibration involved with the movements they use. However the same can't really be said about most of the brands on ShopNBC that offer Automatic movements, because for the most part they just drop in stock movements and call it a day....I think the Valjoux 7750 Militare Swiss Legend from Lior on ShopNBC is one exception though because it's the most modified 7750 from regular ShopNBC brands I've seen all of 2010 thus far. Also, I don't remember if it was sometime this year or last year (or maybe even longer than a year), but I remember on air Jim was saying that the actual component percentage for a watch to be considered "Swiss Made" would be going up, and obviously if that happens, the prices to get a Swiss Made watch will be going up too.


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Bezor

Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by BocephusSTL I couldn't have said it better. If I like something, I don't really care where it's made, as long as it is of high quality and the manufacturer is honest about its origins and/or designations. Of course I don't expect a detailed list of where each part came from - that would be unreasonable. All I care about is knowing whether it's a true Swiss-made, Swiss parts, or Asian movement; where it's assembled; and if it has any special designations/certifications (i.e. COSC). I want to know these things not because I limit myself to only Swiss Made watches (I don't), but because it helps me determine what I'm willing to pay for any given timepiece, whether it's Swiss Made, Swiss parts, or Asian built. Again, I don't really care where it's built. I just don't want to pay the Swiss premium for something that doesn't meet Swiss Made guidelines. Exactly. Bezor View Public Profile Send a private message to Bezor Find all posts by Bezor Add Bezor to Your Contacts #80 Today, 06:28 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,649 Real Name: Charlie

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek


Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinNOLA You are definately right about one thing. I would be happy to give you ten nice Invictas for your Planet Ocean.

I bid 11! __________________

Hot fun in the summertime!


The SWISS MADE debate...Invicta vs. Omega