COVER STORY

THE FUTURE OF THE TALK RADIO FORMAT

Even though the radio world knew the day would come after he announce his Stage 4 cancer diagnosis back in January of 2020, it was still a devastating loss to his radio associates and legion of listeners when Rush Limbaugh passed away in February of this year. The 70-year-old conservative talker was on the air for 32 years, dominating the Talk format for the majority of that time. He was credited with saving AM radio and revitalizing the Talk format, becoming a must-listen for millions of Americans across the country, no matter which political party was in power.

For three hours every weekday, Rush entertained and informed his fans, laying the foundation for many new political talk shows that would follow.

What happens next to the Talk format? How many hosts will it take to fill in that noon-to-3 p.m. slot on over 600 radio stations? Can the political Talk format survive without Rush? Will the format move in a different direction? We’ve assembled an all-star panel of radio industry experts to dig deep into what happens next. They are:

Julie Talbott

President Premiere Networks

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey

CEO American Urban Radio Networks Superadio

Fred Jacobs

President Jacobs Media

Andy Bloom

President Andy Bloom Communications

Phil Boyce

SVP/Spoken Word Format Salem Media Group & Salem Radio Network Programming Consultants

Valerie Geller Mike McVay Buzz Knight

”In a lot of ways, Rush was a very unique broadcaster. From a Talk radio perspective, we’re going to see more lifestyle radio versus controversial talk.”

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey

Radio Ink: What is the state of the Talk format following the passing of Rush Limbaugh?

Julie Talbott: No one would deny that we’ve lost the biggest star of the day. We will continue to give his listeners what they want right now, which is the comfort and hope of his voice. Long term, we are an industry that loves to talk about our shortcomings and not our positives — and there are so many positives. We are never going to be able to replace Rush Limbaugh. We want to get as creative as we can with the storytelling and do it differently. That’s the mission, and I think it’s a very bright future for everyone. We aren’t going to put our heads in the sand and say we won’t miss Rush, but we have a bright future. Let’s figure out how to tell the stories in the best possible way.

Valerie Geller: Personally, I didn’t realize how hard I would be hit by the loss of Rush. He played a big part in an important chapter in my life when I worked with him at WABC. Working with Rush, and those guys at that time, changed the trajectory of my life. It opened up my world in so many ways. When he died, I was very saddened by that, and I was surprised. Politically, he and I couldn’t be farther apart. What happened, after Rush’s death was announced, the next day I had 37 calls from radio stations asking what they were going to do now. They can either take what the network is going to give them, or they now have a pile of money they can use to hire somebody. Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: I had the experience of having Rush at stations that we owned and operated, so I know the importance of that audience, his voice, and his entertainment of that audience. In a lot of ways, he was a very unique broadcaster. From a Talk radio perspective, we’re going to see more lifestyle radio versus controversial talk. There’s no question controversial talk gets us engaged and our blood stirring. There’s more opportunity for lifestyle talk, and the American radio listener wants that. You can’t replace what you already had. Julie is right: Rush Limbaugh is not replaceable. I think that space can be filled with other needs the listeners have.

Fred Jacobs: I’m the music guy. This whole thing reminds me of what we went through in Rock radio when Howard Stern moved over to Sirius 15 years ago. There was all this discussion about who would be the next Howard. Here we are, and there’s no Howard Stern. There can’t possibly be. I think we are at the same point with Rush. Rather than trying to find the next amazing talent who will electrify radio, I agree with Chesley: it’s time for an introspective look at the overall format. Start thinking about other ways to do this besides the Limbaugh way.

Valerie Geller: I think a lot of Talk listeners are sick of the politics. They tune out. A lot of the Talk audience went over to podcasts and left us. We have to entertain first. They want to find middle ground. They want conversations, not to be talked at. When you look at where audiences are going and what they’re responding to, it’s conversations in an entertaining way. It’s a seat at the most fun, fascinating conversation. That’s what we need to provide if we’re going to survive.

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: Rush connected to people. He had an incredible manner of connecting to his audience.

Julie Talbott: You’re right, Fred, we aren’t going to try to replace Rush Limbaugh. Sadly, we’ve had a year to test, to brainstorm, to talk with every part of our loyal audiences. We aren’t going to replace him. The narrative that everyone calls to ask about is “Who’s next?” That’s not what we want to put out there. Those millions of loyal listeners don’t want a name, they want to hear the comfort in his voice, and then they will want something creatively different from their beloved Rush. It’s our responsibility to come out with creative ways to enhance our Talk format. We aren’t ready to go down that path yet. When we see that the listeners have mourned enough, then we will come out with some different suggestions.

Mike McVay: You have to acknowledge Rush was the highest-rated daypart on the stations he was on. For the longest

time, as an individual programmer, corporate programmer, and now as a consultant, I would hear all the complaints and frustrations people would have with a high-profile talent like Rush, how polarizing he was, and yet the guy was number one over and over again and had huge ratings. It screams as to how entertaining he was, how engaging. You’re not going to replace that, ever. Secondly, any time a radio station makes a change, no matter how big or small, you give the audience permission to look elsewhere, and they will. It doesn’t mean they won’t come back, but the audience will look to see what else is out there. It’s an opportunity for a lot of other people to forge a path that’s their own. It’s an opportunity, as Julie said, for Premiere to do something that’s different, what the next generation is looking for.

Andy Bloom: When Rush came on the air, he wasn’t replacing anybody. He was creating his own hill, because he was an original. When Howard Stern became Howard Stern, he wasn’t replacing somebody else. He created his own hill, which was outrage. I think the trick now is figuring out, or finding somebody who will captivate America through entertainment, through storytelling, which is important. We have to find the next great storyteller/entertainer, something I wrote about for Radio Ink more than five years ago. The problem is the industry has been lax in doing that and has failed to find the next great entertainer. Whether it’s going to be a conservative talker or outrage personality, it’s going to be something new and original, and it will captivate America.

Buzz Knight: I think it may splinter the Talk format in some regard — which may be healthy. You might see it split into some other categories, whether that be a Millennial Talk category or Entertainment Talk radio. You aren’t going to replace him and potentially splinter the category.

Phil Boyce: You aren’t going to replace Rush Limbaugh. I don’t think we need to. There are a lot of people coming up underneath who can fill that gap well. There are very talented people coming into the Talk arena now. Rush is leaving behind a strong and robust format, the number one format in radio. I will always cherish my years with Rush, but look forward to what the years may be like going forward.

Radio Ink: Is there something under the radar in this format that will get more visibility? Something that gets away from politics?

Mike McVay: Some of the best talk talent now are on Rock stations, and don’t play music. I think you will see someone take those talents and move them into stations that have more talk. I look at iHeart in Cleveland; Rover does a talk show in the morning on WMMS, which is a Rock station other times. Tom Bernard in Minneapolis is on the long list of really good talk talent. It stands to reason that if the conversation is engaging and entertaining, it could attract any demo. Back to Rush — there were things he did as a Top 40 DJ that he still did on the air as Rush Limbaugh the conservative Talk radio guy.

Andy Bloom: That’s a great point, Mike. You look at some of the top talk shows now, and they did come from music radio. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and a number of others who got their start in Top 40 or Rock. That’s a great place. I’m fascinated now by what NPR has done over the past five years. I was looking at the top 23 out of 25 markets, looking at 12+ total week data, and NPR is number one 12+ in five markets, number two in another two. It’s the number one spoken word station in nine markets and top five in 10 different markets. I think there’s a great story going on at NPR that breaks the traditional mold that Rush did and so many others are now filling.

Fred Jacobs: I think that’s right, Andy. We’ve done a lot of work for NPR and public radio stations in general. There are some tremendous personalities around the country at local and regional public stations, but NPR in particular has stepped up big time. Somewhere Jarl Mohn is smiling because he predicted all this would happen. We

“Maybe in a syndicated world it is more challenging, but we keep defaulting to controversy here because that’s worked in the past. Are we sure that’s the road we want to go down again?”

Fred Jacobs

“When you look at where audiences are going and what they’re responding to, it’s conversations in an entertaining way. It’s a seat at the most fun, fascinating conversation. That’s what we need to provide if we’re going to survive.”

Valerie Geller

Fred Jacobs Valerie Geller

were together at the Talk Show Boot Camp in Dallas a few years ago, and that was a big part of the dinner conversation. It suggests there are potentially all kinds of Talk radio programs. I was of the mind that there’s only one way to do Classic Rock. What I’ve learned over the years is, no, there’s Classic Hits, hard Classic Rock — there are a number of different ways to skin this thing, perhaps — as difficult as it may be for Valerie’s 37 stations that woke up last week to realize their number one daypart is gone.

Valerie Geller: Rush was unique. There’s nobody like him. Paul Harvey and Howard Stern were unique. Can there be another Barbra Streisand? These people have something so special. Yet there are other people who are diamonds. It means taking risk, and our business is risk-averse. We have an opportunity now. It’s entertaining, inspiring, informative, and connected. It’s storytelling. If we can take some risks, try some people, and give them some runway — don’t kill them after three shows. When I first was working with Rush, he had a 0.3 and nobody believed he would do well in New York. Howard had Mel Karmazin. Everybody who’s good had somebody who believed in them and stuck with them. If you have a talent you believe in, go to the mat for them. Take some risks, knowing it could fail. They may cross the line, and yes, you may have to go to court like we did with Rush in the beginning. I think our business has not had a backbone. We’ve been going through consolidation. Now is the time. We’re in a global pandemic. If we’re not going to find shining stars now, when are we? Mike, you mentioned that some are safer than others. Talk radio has been fun, and I think some of that has gone away with this dogged political agenda stuff.

That has to come back — unique conversations and feeling like your world has been expanded. In public radio, we talk about the “driveway moment,” where people sit in the car and want to hear the end of a conversation or interview. Talk radio has provided that for years. We have work to do. We’ve gotten fat. We need to fight for our listeners, to experiment, try new things. We can incubate people in podcasts and on the weekends. In commercial radio, we’ve lost the farm teams. It’s important to develop people at the local level, then pull them up to syndication.

Andy Bloom: This is exactly the trouble with the industry. The industry doesn’t do this anymore. It isn’t willing to take chances. It’s much easier to fire or suspend somebody and not take chances. If you’re breaking eggs to make omelets, the industry doesn’t want you. It’s a systemic, industry-wide problem, until management at the highest level is ready to say, “We’ll defend and stand by you,” instead of, “If we get complaints, we will suspend or fire you.” The other point is, I don’t believe ratings matter a damn anymore. They don’t care what they are unless you’re one of the monoliths that’s been grandfathered in. What they care about is your salability, and you’re not sales-friendly if you’re controversial. All these things we know make for great radio and attract great audiences are things management doesn’t care about anymore. I’ve worked with someone who is capable of pulling great ratings, but they’ll create a headache. This person hasn’t been able to get hired and instead has decided to go down the path of “I won’t do that anymore.” They’ve decided to become vanilla as a slice of Wonder bread and learn to help sales. It’s a question of what the industry is willing to bear.

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: Some of what he says is true. We’ve worked with every great talker over the years, like Al Sharpton, Rachel Maddow, etc. There is a lot of pushback from the advertising community. Our business model is advertiser-supported. If we get advertisers heading for the hills, it’s fiscally irresponsible for us to not respond to this.

“The narrative that everyone calls to ask about is ‘Who’s next?’ That’s not what we want to put out there. Those millions of loyal listeners don’t want a name, they want to hear the comfort in his voice, and then they will want something creatively different from their beloved Rush.”

Julie Talbott

“When Rush came on the air, he wasn’t replacing anybody. He was creating his own hill, because he was an original.”

Andy Bloom

‘Rush is leaving behind a strong and robust format, the number one format in radio. I will always cherish my years with Rush, but look forward to what the years may be like going forward.”

Phil Boyce

Julie Talbott

Julie Talbott: I think salability is critical. We have an entire sales division that never steps foot into an ad agency because they do have to worry about that. Anyone we bring on board, we spend an enormous amount of time holding their hand, letting them know what they will be up against. That’s worked for us. It’s hand-to-hand combat, and a great strategy working the content and sales team together to understand who those advertisers are — capitalists that want to grow a business.

Fred Jacobs: My question is “Is controversy a necessary ingredient in order to be a captivating talk show host?” I think back to people like Ron Chapman and J.P. McCarthy and others who were brilliant, charming, and captivating. They owned their towns. Maybe in a syndicated world, it is more challenging, but we keep defaulting to controversy here because that’s worked in the past. Are we sure that’s the road we want to go down again?

Andy Bloom: When they cancelled Dr. Suess — I don’t know what’s controversial anymore. You don’t have to say anything that’s really controversial to find yourself in trouble with the political correctness police or the cancel police.

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: I grew up listening to Paul Harvey, who wasn’t controversial, but engaging. The question is, how do you get the quickest response, the most vocal form of engagement. There’s a lot of finesse that Paul Harvey had that people now don’t have. They go straight for the jugular as opposed to easing in. Paul made you think. I don’t know that we don’t need some of that back — people who are willing to engage in a different way. We look at ratings — and they do matter in the syndication world. We have a responsibility to make the paychecks that are supported by advertisers. I do think we have to find measures of engagement other than controversy.

Mike McVay: I think there are lanes, just like magazines. There’s Men’s Life and Mad Magazine, the same way there’s that conservative Talk radio station. It’s not controversy to the people listening. It’s controversy to the people who disagree with what they’re saying. In my former corporate role, it’s one of the things that would drive me nuts. The view from a number of the leadership team members was very different from what was coming out of the speakers. I guarantee there’s no liberal Democrat who’s changed to become a Republican by listening to Talk radio. They’re in an echo chamber. As long as they aren’t lying or creating violence, it’s not controversial to that listener. I do think we are in a time where there’s room to be a lane for the other guys. There are other liberal talk shows, other shows that are entertaining and engaging. They are going to be in a different lane. I do think there’s opportunity for the other guy. It would be good

Andy Bloom Phil Boyce

if you didn’t tune up and down the dial and hear a lot of Rush or Hannity, but heard some of these people who are trying something different.

Andy Bloom: The point is well taken. I pulled the list of the most listened to Talk radio programs. It’s all over the place regarding topics. It still has Rush as number one, Hannity as number two, then Marketplace followed by All Things Considered. We have the first two conservative Talk, followed by financial news, then a newsmagazine, Dave Ramsey, Mark Levin, and then Coast to Coast. They are all over the place. It falls into a number of places.

Valerie Geller: I think it comes down to tell the truth, make it matter, never be boring — which I’ve been shouting from the hill since 1990. This is the essence. If somebody is fun and fascinating, it will work. If the time goes fast, it’s working. Is it a pleasure to listen to?

I don’t feel negative about our industry. I think we have an opportunity to go to the edge of the wall and look at some unique individuals. I love radio. To me, when you are in the car and the magic happens — that’s still there. I called into my first talk show when I was 7, and I’m still enthralled. We don’t want to lose sponsors — I get it. I talked to someone who bought a $4,000 bed because of live copy, radio, and podcasting.

Radio Ink: Why hasn’t Joe Rogan been syndicated on radio?

Julie Talbott: There are a lot of talents out there. Some are made for radio, and others not. Some like the freedom of a podcast. With Rush’s passing, I remain completely excited. There are hundreds of things to do. Don’t forget about the Sports format, where we’ve developed great entertainment. I don’t think we need to be doomand-gloom. We’ve never been healthier, with tons of talent and podcasts. I have people who send me podcasts who don’t want to be published yet because they are not ready for the limelight of that. We have a bright future ahead of us.

Fred Jacobs: Julie said it best: 20 years ago you went on radio or TV, but now you have podcasting, satellite, etc. You have people like Adam Carolla, who are happy doing what they’re doing in their environment. They don’t want to be over here, and that’s fine. There’s a place for everyone. As we all know, this is a tough job to bring it every day and be good over time.

Buzz Knight: We are not welcoming enough to incubating formats or personalities or, among all talent and formats, not welcoming diversity in the types of voices we allow in. I don’t feel we’ve reached that capability or potential.

Mike McVay: I think podcasting can be a great incubation opportunity. You saw how Ben Shapiro went from a podcast and did very well. To what Julie was saying, neither podcasting nor streaming is a replacement for radio. Radio has an amazing distribution that’s bigger than Spotify, Amazon, etc. — and we apologize for it. On a side note, we play too many commercials, to the point of not incubating talent. We are throwing a lot of people on the air or voicetracking, or we have no talent on the air at all. I learned this past week that 1,000 downloads puts you in the top 15%. You have to get 20,000 downloads to get ads. There are more great radio talents than great podcasters.

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: People feel there’s no barrier to getting into podcasting. True talent needs coaching. It needs listening to, refining, and always being interested in improving. That’s one of the things Rush Limbaugh was always interested in doing. He set a high bar, and he continued to go higher. Podcasting is not a farm system because they don’t have outside input. Unless you are well-produced, you don’t have a great podcast. You might have a great subject, but you don’t have a listenable podcast.

Valerie Geller: Everybody can talk, so everybody thinks it’s easy. This is very hard work. People in the industry know how special talent is. The great ones make it look so easy. Whoopi Goldberg was funny and smart, but she didn’t

“Some of the best talk talent now are on Rock stations, and don’t play music. I think you will see someone take those talents and move them into stations that have more talk.”

Mike McVay

listen. You had somebody who missed one of the big factors that makes one a powerful communicator. There’s such a temptation to find a famous name elsewhere and bring them in, instead of looking at people who are homegrown. Looking at: is this person a good listener? Do they observe life? Are they original? Are they interactive, sensitive to the world around them? We get fooled by big names and the temptation to throw them front and center. When they fail, we’ve invested a lot of money and they don’t work out. The trick is to find powerful communicators, people who are gifted at this, and then develop them. I am optimistic about where we are right now. We can learn from our mistakes and move on.

Andy Bloom: There’s no doubt there’s talent out there. How much we’re allowed to do with them is one question, but the other thing is how technology is going to change what we are going to do — the challenges and opportunities that technology presents. More and more people are using connected cars, smart speakers, mobile apps. These are going to present increasing challenges for this format. Especially one that at the current time relies on older demographics. Technology also provides fragmentation, provides other options for them. One of the challenges and opportunities is the new tech world that continues to evolve as fast as we can keep up. We have to do a great job, or we will get steamrolled by stations that are hip to it.

Radio Ink: Do you think this upcoming opportunity will be a chance for stations to insert local hosts? How important is that?

Buzz Knight: Whoever the host is, they have to be great. If it’s a local opportunity for an influencer in a marketplace that matters, great. But I don’t think it’s a onesize-fits-all. This does create opportunity. It pushes us to go to different places to find what the new thing could be. One reason people are so captivated and get lost inside [audio chat app] Clubhouse is because it’s an opportunity for us to hear people who have a different range of voices we haven’t heard before. Some are good and some aren’t. This is opportunity time for sure.

Fred Jacobs: When you look at all the local markets, there are local morning shows leading in a variety of different markets. Dan and Chuck The Freak in Detroit, Preston and Steve in Philadelphia, etc. You can see that great local talent can really resonate and do a wonderful job. Great entertainment is great entertainment, whether it’s being piped in from L.A. or sitting in an air studio in Detroit. If it’s good, it will work. Valerie Geller: That’s the answer. Get people who are good.

Julie Talbott: It’s about great storytellers and entertainers. That’s what we look at every day. It is a lot of hard work. It’s important to get folks who are passionate, wanting to come in every day. I hear a lot of great talent, but if you’re not willing to give it your all every day ,it won’t work long term.

Andy Bloom: Local is radio’s secret sauce.

Radio Ink: Three big names that our readers should watch for over the next year, whether podcasting or in the radio space?

Mike McVay: I am very impressed with Ben Ferguson. He’s a bright young guy. I had a chance to work with him some years ago. I listen to Rover at WMMS in Cleveland, a talk show that could work on any Talk-formatted radio station. My personal favorite is Heidi and Frank on KLOS/L.A. in the morning. They’re entertaining, topical, political when they need to be. For the most part, it’s about what everyone is talking about every day. There’s a certain amount of cynicism and lack of respect that makes it a fun show.

Buzz Knight: I’d be hard-pressed to find three. Looking into different platforms of

“We are not welcoming enough to incubating formats or personalities or, among all talent and formats, not welcoming diversity in the types of voices we allow in. I don’t feel we’ve reached that capability or potential.”

Buzz Knight

distribution where talent can come from provides an opportunity. One — I’ve been fascinated by the audience she’s built, but she would need extreme coaching to get to the next level — we think is great is Heather Cox Richardson. She’s the breakout on Substack. She’s a historian and professor out of Boston. She’s created a unique voice.

Fred Jacobs: I love a lot of people. John Holmberg, who does mornings for KUPD in Phoenix. Phoenix is an overlooked market, and he has been doing mornings there for a long time. He brings it every day. I love Greg Baharrell, who does nights on KLOS. This guy is totally out of his mind. He’s irreverent and a lot of fun. The other wacky guy out of L.A. is Christian James Hand. He may not be capable of doing a four- or five-hour show, but the feature he does with musical breakdowns is some of the most compelling storytelling I’ve ever heard.

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: I will say the quality of a person is more important. I think the next great person will come from a music background.

Julie Talbott: I’m going to talk about who we have on the air right now who are new in their careers. Buck Sexton, our young guy who is very talented. Ben Ferguson; we’re really working him right now. And in the sports world, Clay Travis. He is one of the great storytellers. I have 20 more behind that. Andy Bloom: Clay Travis would be on my list.

Mike McVay: I should’ve said Greg Baharrell. I hired him from San Francisco to KLOS to do nights. He has since been syndicated. He is somebody to watch.

Fred Jacobs: I have one question for everyone. One of the concerns I have is that demographically, this thing is getting away from us. We’re looking at radio like we have the entire palette of the country to go at, but when you look at what is happening with radio demographics and conservative Talk, it is aging white guys. I worry even if we came up with a great talent geared at 21-year-olds, would they still be around to appreciate the talent?

Julie Talbott: It’s something we focus on all the time. We’ve spent a long time developing The Breakfast Club. We’ve developed them in different ways, and we will continue to develop each of the three of them in different ways. They do bring that younger audience. We’ve brought in Jason Lee; he’s a Hollywood gossip guy. We think the way to do that is use the power of Charlamagne or Angela Yee or DJ Envy and build within them. We are trying to bring diversity and younger audiences in.

Fred Jacobs: I think they are a great example of diversity.

Julie Talbott: And Enrique Santos. He’s doing both the Spanish and English shows. Let’s give ourselves a little credit. We do have a lot of work to do, but we are spending a lot of time finding these gems.

Chesley Maddox-Dorsey: Twenty-four hours a day, people can listen. You can only do videos so many hours a day before your eyes burn out. We have young talent we are developing, and it attracts. Ebro in the Morning attracts a good group of young people. We have a young jock in the morning who has grown in wisdom. He is a smooth talker. The format doesn’t allow for a lot of individual conversations, but he’s engaging and entertaining. He attracts women like nobody’s business. I think radio has a lot of upside. We still have the ears more than any other medium. They are available to us 24 hours a day. We just have to keep after it.

Mike McVay: You are right, Chesley and Julie, we don’t look at The Breakfast Club as a talk show, but that’s clearly what it is. Charlamagne is now at a point that when there was social unrest, he was being interviewed on CNN. There’s Men’s Room, the talk show, or DL Hughley, who is very entertaining.

Julie Talbott: We did try to merge some audiences by putting Rush Limbaugh and The Breakfast Club together and letting them have an hourlong conversation. We are all trying things. Let’s not forget we are trying.