ad MercierInterview with Siné

By Scott Murphy, SS Law and Political Science

Why did you choose to study law and how did you find your time in Trinity? I originally applied to NCAD as well as Trinity, and while I wasn’t sure what to expect from Trinity, I suppose I had a sense of justice so that’s why I chose law. I loved Trinity but it was difficult at first, coming from Connemara to the “Big Smoke”. In my final two years, I got to the subjects that fitted me better. I loved Ivana Bacik’s classes, I thought she was wonderful. I also really enjoyed Alan Brady’s classes, and Yvonne Scannell’s environmental law.

You’re kind of taught in first and second year that everything in law is holy writ, this is the way things are, it’s like a science. But it’s only in third and fourth year that you realise that law is socially, politically, and materially created, so that was really interesting.

Why did you choose to become a policy researcher rather than pursue a more traditional career in law? I’m very independent so that was definitely one reason. Also, with the realisation in third and fourth year that law is socially created, I thought that maybe my efforts would be best placed trying to change the law, rather than trying to apply it in a positive way (which in itself is a noble thing to do). It just fit better to make the broader changes. I worked in private law for a bit with Philip Lee and KOD Lyons, working mainly with environmental impact assessments, and human rights law respectively. But I saw that legislation passed in the Dáil could make people’s lives much harder, so I just thought it would be best to go to the root.

You were the Green Party’s primary Dáil researcher between 2016-2019. What kind of work did you do and what was it like? I would encourage anyone to go for a job in the Oireachtas. Generally, it’s a wonderful place to work. It’s lovely to contribute to making the world and Ireland a better place, but it was very fast-paced work. We would get a lot of emails from constituents and people who were environmentally conscious about various issues. I would meet with these activists and try to put together legislation, motions, or bills.

Sometimes TDs themselves would have ideas and I would go and do some research, and then try to find a core point we could call on for legislative change. For example, I worked on legislation to end period poverty with Catherine Martin TD, and we introduced legislation to ban oil and gas exploration in Irish waters. That was interesting because it came from the ground up, with activists calling for it to be banned.

It seems like the role of a Dáil researcher is a very active position then,

involving not just office work, but meeting people and writing legislation with them in mind? Yes, very much so, and while there are different approaches, that was my approach. There can be an insider culture in some political parties, but my own view is that you should listen to your constituents and bring what your constituents and social movements are working on into the Dáil. That was my role, particularly with a smaller party.

Now that you are an independent consultant on climate law and policy, what kind of organisations do you advise? At the moment I am working with the National Economic and Social Council (NESC) – a State think-tank – who work to create social dialogue by bringing together business groups like Ibec, with trade unions, and social justice organisations. We try to find certain priorities to agree on, so it’s a form of collaborative decision-making. I’ve also worked with organisations such as the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, so from my experience, you pick up projects once you specialise in an area.

Do you think there has been an increase in demand recently for researchers in your area of climate, human rights, and “just transition”, and if so, do you think that will continue into the future? Yes, definitely. I think that “just transition” has given a whole new lens to climate issues and a burst of new energy. That kind of energy was there already because of the school strikers, they put in a lot of the hard work. Also, scientists have been starting to speak out more, which has helped to shift public opinion and create the green wave. There’s definitely been a move towards taking the matter in hand rather than accepting that the market works well and will take care of things. That was a very ’90s idealism, but we know that’s not true now.

We also now have the climate litigation court cases, and we are really seeing the impact of that on the world stage. Just transition is a big part of that. Indigenous, trade union, global south, and human rights groups also worked really hard to get just transition and human rights into the Paris Agreement. The alternative approach is what we’ve been doing for 30 years and it hasn’t worked.

Just transition is also a more welcoming debate. It allows space for conversations which couldn’t take place before. It used to be that the environment was the most important thing, but with that approach, people were not considered. In contrast, people are central to the just transition approach.

You seem to have a very intersectional approach. Did your postgraduate education, for example your LLM in LSE, and your Postgraduate Diploma from NUIG in Gender, Globalisation and Human Rights, help you to develop that approach? Yes, definitely. The intersectional approach really suits me. It’s becoming more and more important - a systems-thinking approach - where you watch to see the broad implications of your actions. We’re coming to a really interesting point where we’re past the climate denial stage, and we can debate what climate policies work best. The intersectional approach is the future. It requires working with people and learning from others. You are only really as good as those you learn from and share your knowledge with.

Finally, what advice would you have for students looking to become a policy researcher and advisor? A key tip I would give is find out what you love. What drives you? What is it that you have found most fascinating over the last four years? You will find work in that area if you are willing to work hard and cultivate your knowledge. Also, be as collaborative as possible. When I graduated, I would go along to law and human rights events, meet people, and work up the courage to ask questions. Even though it sounds evasive, building your network is really important. When I graduated, I went to loads of events with groups such as Friends of the Earth and the Irish Penal Reform Trust. It’s slow work, but you get to figure out what it is you are interested in.