Podcast Business Journal Aug/Sep 2019 by Podcast Business Journal

VOL. 1, NO. 1

AUG-SEPT 2019

WWW.PODCASTBUSINESSJOURNAL.COM

Inaugural Issue

THE 20 BEST STORYTELLERS

IN PODCASTING

HOW THE PODCAST MOVEMENT ALL BEGAN 10 QUESTIONS WITH HALL OF FAMER DAVE JACKSON

Mike TYSON +

CHAMP. ACTOR. PODCASTER.

COLIN GRAY'S SUCCESS SECRETS

9 TIPS TO CONDUCT YOUR BEST INTERVIEW EVER WHY YOU SHOULD START A MEETUP GROUP

CONTENTS 6

8 9

12 14

Hereâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;s What The Future of Podcasting Will Look Like By Evo Terra

EDITOR-IN-CHIEF Ed Ryan

9 Tips For Conducting Great Interviews By Richard Davies

ADVERTISING/MARKETING CONSULTANT George Wymer 937-609-6778 george.wymer@gmail.com CHAIRMAN/CEO B. Eric Rhoads

COVER STORY Mike Tyson Punches His Way Into Podcasting By Editorial Director Ed Ryan

EXEC. VP/COO Tom Elmo

How The Movement All Began A Q&A With Dan Franks

bericrhoads@gmail.com Twitter: @ericrhoads Facebook: ericrhoads tomelmo@radioink.com

DIRECTOR OF FINANCE Laura Iserman liserman@streamlinepublishing.com ACCOUNTING Jaime Osetek

The Barrier To Entry Is Value â&#x20AC;&#x201D; Not Cost By Molly Ruland

The 20 Best Storytellers In Podcasting

kenneth.whitney@gmail.com

NATIONAL MARKETING EXECUTIVE Carl Marcucci 703-670-2860 cmarcucci66@gmail.com

Do You Want To Be A Great Podcaster? A Q&A With Colin Gray

ART DIRECTOR Kenneth Whitney

NATIONAL ACCOUNT MANAGER Tracey Homberg 248-330-4595 tracey4radioink@gmail.com

10 Questions With Hall Of Famer Dave Jackson

How To Execute Host-Read Ads Flawlessly By Lisa Orkin

azstreamlinepub@gmail.com

DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS April McLynn amclynn@streamlinepublishing.com

Welcome To The Golden Age Of Podcasting â&#x20AC;¦ Or Not! By Mark Asquith

COPY EDITOR Adrian Zupp

PRODUCTION COORDINATOR Nicolynn Kuper nkuper@streamlinepublishing.com

Independent Podcasters And Consolidation â&#x20AC;&#x201D; A Good Thing? By Norm Pattiz

Podcasting: Itâ&#x20AC;&#x2122;s All About Community A Q&A With Chris Kirmitsos

edryantheeditor@gmail.com

MANAGING EDITOR Brida Connolly bconnolly@streamlinepublishing.com

5 Legal Headaches To Avoid By Shawn M. Yesner

EVP/PUBLISHER Deborah Parenti dparenti@streamlinepublishing.com

jaime@streamlinepublishing.com

CIRCULATION COORDINATOR Sue Henry shenry@streamlinepublishing.com PODCAST BUSINESS JOURNAL EDITORIAL BOARD Mark Asquith, CEO, Rebel Base Media Todd Cochrane, CEO, Blubrry Traci Long DeForge, Founder, Produce Your Podcast Danielle Desir, Co-Founder, WOC Podcasters Elsie Escobar, Podcasting Strategist Dan Franks, Co-Founder/Organizer, Podcast Movement Rob Greenlee, VP/Contents & Partnerships, Libsyn Dave Jackson, CEO, School of Podcasting John Dennis, Chief Experience Officer, Podfest Multimedia Expo Rob Walch, VP of Podcaster Relations, Libsyn

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podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

editorial director

BY ED RYAN

LET’S ALL SUCCEED TOGETHER

Podcast Business Journal Editorial Director Ed Ryan with Florida Podcast Network CEO Jaime Legagneur and Glenn “The Geek” Hebert at Podfest 2019.

Welcome to the inaugural print issue of The Podcast Business Journal. Our goal is to introduce you to the biggest influencers in the space, pick their brains about what makes them the best, and pass that along to you so you can thrive as a podcaster no matter what your goal is. Podcasting is hot. Hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent in podcasts by advertisers, and the IAB projects that figure will hit $1 billion by 2021. Investors are throwing millions of dollars into podcasting startups. Big brands like Spotify are gobbling up podcasting companies left and right, hoping to be the number one player in the space and the number one choice for consumers who listen to podcasts. Conferences, meet meetups, summits, and other podcast gather gatherings are popping up all around the country. Everyone from comedians to actors to politicians to three friends in a garage are starting podcasts. But just because anyone can launch a podcast, it doesn’t

mean anyone can find listeners. That’s where we come in. This issue is your official podcast success cheat sheet. Here are a few highlights: Worried about what music, clips or other content you’re allowed to include in your podcast? Attorney Shawn Yesner details the top five legal headaches you need to avoid.

4 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

Thinking about incorporating ads into your show? Lisa Orkin explains how to to make them work for your advertisers Not sure how to conduct a great interview? Richard Davies has nine tips to make your next interview great. Thinking about starting a local podcasting organization in your hometown? Podfest Expo CEO Chris Kirmitsos Kirmitsos, who launched the Florida Podcast Association, is the guru on that topic. We also picked the brains of Hall of Famers Dave Jackson and Colin Gray Gray. And we unveil the Top Storytellers of 2019. We know, we know, it’s way too much to digest in one sitting. We hope you enjoy our debut print issue of The Podcast Business Journal Journal. More importantly, we hope it helps you become a better podcaster. It would be great to get your feedback on this issue. Please feel free to contact me at edryan theeditor@gmail.com. And don’t forget to sign up for our free daily headlines at www.podcast businessjournal.com. PBJ

HERE’S WHAT THE FUTURE OF PODCASTING WILL LOOK LIKE … ACCORDING TO EVO TERRA

author of Podcasting for Dummies

BY EVO TERRA

Depending on your perspective, 2019 has been either the best or the worst year for podcasting since its inception. Personal opinions aside, no one debates the unprecedented amount of money that has poured into the podcasting space — just in the first half of the year! But it’s that money, as well as the content, technologies, and talent cultivation it supports, that will certainly change podcasting from what it was, and what it is, into what it will be. Caveat: predicting the future is hard. Lots of the big bets made with those investment dollars will fail. Some technologies will disappear, with new ones rising to fill new ecosystems. Listeners’ tastes will change and trends will go in crazy directions no one has foresight into right now. Because predicting the future ... is hard. Not that it’ll stop me from trying. And while I’m not betting my retirement account on it, I’m confident many of these will come to pass in the next 15 years. And no, you may not even recognize podcasting when we get there. 1. PREMIUM PODCASTING DOMINATES THE SHORT HEAD.

Break out your credit card, because the best and most popular (yes, both) will cost you to

listen. You’re likely tempted to pooh-pooh this notion by looking at the current landscape of premium podcast providers and seeing kind of a wasteland. But that’s just the advance guard stumbling their way into premium content, just like many of us stumbled our way into podcasting more than a decade ago. The company with the best shot of becoming the true “Netflix of podcasting” is Netflix. Or Hulu. Or the other dozen companies who are really, really good at making content worth paying for. 2. HOBBYIST PODCASTING DOMINATES THE LONG TAIL.

Podcasting started as open and free. And while some shows will continue to be locked behind a paywall, the overwhelming majority of podcasts — especially those done by hobbyists — will remain free and open. People like to create and share. People will continue to create and share. Some people will find ways to monetize the content they create and share that don’t require a paywall. Some will continue to create and share because they cannot not create and share. Remember that podcasting is just an extension of Web publishing, a system build on open and free standards.

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3. RSS DOESN’T DIE.

RSS feeds aren’t sexy. But they get the job done. I think alternative distribution methods — JSON files, direct API integration, and lots of something elses — will continue to gain traction and will likely be used for a lot of the data hauling behind the scenes. It’s likely that most listening will not be RSS-feed-dependent in the future, and we’ll never know it. But podcast hosting companies will continue to publish RSS feeds, even though a dwindling number of holdouts will be the only ones using them. Long live the flat text file! 4. MEDIA HOSTING IS FREE.

Prior to 2019, free podcast media hosting companies could only last so long before they went belly up. And while I don’t think that all of today’s paid hosting companies are destined for the graveyard, I am confident that a major player — probably Spotify — will offer free podcast media hosting to rival those paid media hosting providers. Before you think me too crazy, I remind you that YouTube charges nothing to host videos on its platform, and that the vast majority of the videos it serves remain free to access. 5. DISCOVERY REMAINS AN ISSUE.

From the perspective of the podcaster, that is. More shows — some of them isolated into premium channels — means more items in a consideration set on any search query. Yes, search will get better (thanks, Google!). But many podcasters will still be unhappy that their podcast doesn’t come up first when a potential listener searches for “entrepreneur.”

momentum with a completely different audience base. 10. OLD WHITE MEN BECOME LESS RELEVANT.

As a proud early adopter (by choice) and old white man (by birth), I’m proud to have played a small part in podcasting to date. But I’ve always been wary of the argumentum ad antiquitatem that follows me and my fellow old white men around. We did some awesome things back in the day, with a lot less structure and best practices than are available now. But at some point, our experiences and established processes hinder the advancement of podcasting, reducing the chance that any of my above predictions will come to be. Nature has a way of rectifying that problem on its own. But we don’t have to wait for attrition. We can make room now for more voices. Voices with more relevant and modern experiences that are more reflective of where podcasting is going, not just where it’s been. PBJ 6. THE PODCAST AD BUBBLE WILL POP.

I don’t see advertising ever getting out of podcasting. Podcasting is Web content, and a lot of Web content is ad-supported. But to get podcast advertising to scale, it has to get easier to buy and manage. And when that happens, the quality of ads is going to suffer. And when that happens, the response rate on those ads will drop. And when that happens, the advertisers are going to look for other ways to attract business at scale. 7. EAR-HOLES AND EYEBALLS CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

Beyond the challenges of making advertisers happy, podcasters will continue to struggle with getting their

listeners to take action. We’ll write extensive episode notes to display in-app. We’ll experiment (again) with adding chapters to our media files. We’ll use short codes in the URLs we speak aloud. And we’ll still struggle to overcome the ear-to-keyboard gap, especially as podcast listening continues to happen on devices with vanishingly small screens. 8. CREATIVE FOCUS SHIFTS FROM TRICKY TECH TO COOLER CONTENT.

Even after 15 years, there are still too many bits/bytes decisions left to the brains of content creators. Part of that is a natural outcome of the rule-devoid and open nature of the medium. In the future, un-creative decisions like bit

rate, sample size, and whether or not to include a number in your episode title will no longer plague creatives. Once freed of decisions better left to machines, creative brains will be freed to focus on making better content. 9. PODCASTING SPINS OFF SOMETHING BRAND NEW.

Evo Terra is the author of Podcasting for Dummies, the CEO of Simpler Media Productions, and the host of Podcast Pontifications, a daily short-form podcast that wants to make podcasting better. He can be reached at thisisevo@gmail.com.

Old school-Flickr fans are still puzzled by Instagram’s popularity. YouTube devotees can’t see the value in TikTok. What new service will come along and make a whole new way to enjoy audio-on-the-go content? I don’t know what it will look like, but it will probably be met with a huge amount of skepticism from within the podcasting community, all while it’s gathering

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

host, The Crushing Debt podcast

5 LEGAL HEADACHES TO AVOID

BY SHAWN M. YESNER

Congratulations on the start of your new podcast! Or, congratulations on the success of your existing podcast! Or, congratulations on picking up that sponsor! That huge guest you’ve wanted to interview! That offer to join a network! Leave it to the attorney to ask this next question: How do you protect yourself when these great situations go sideways?

any success stories, and she described two clients: one had cancer that went into remission, and the other eliminated diabetes! While these were great results, my guest was not a doctor and I was hesitant about her making such bold medical claims on my show, but I didn’t know if I could simply edit out that part of the interview without her approval.

MUSIC/ARTWORK COPYRIGHT

You love your logo, and your music is perfect! Make sure whoever created those provided you with a copyright or intellectual property release so you can avoid a future letter trying to force you to stop using your music or artwork. Worse, if you took (i.e., stole) your music or artwork, be prepared for a cease and desist letter or a lawsuit. Fair use will only provide a limited amount of protection (if you can prove it).

NETWORK AGREEMENT

Another time, I replayed a previous episode that was an interview with a friend of mine who is both a personal injury attorney and a Major League Baseball agent. I replayed the episode where I interviewed him as an agent, which I cleverly TRADEMARK titled “Show Me the Money.” You may avoid fights over ownership of intellectual proper- At the time I posted the replay, I had no idea my friend would be ty by protecting your podcast representing someone who was logo with a trademark from injured at an NHL game. My the U.S. Patent & Trademark friend was being criticized on Office (USPTO). A trademark social media for being a “typical is relatively inexpensive. While you should maintain a record of attorney ambulance chaser” (to when you first started using your put it nicely), and here comes my replay episode titled “Show logo, which provides the show Me the Money”! with some common law (i.e., A well-written guest release non-statutory) protection, regiswill avoid potential liability for tering your logo as a mark with these contingencies and protect the USPTO provides a greater level of protection should some- you when you do edit out someone try to use your logo, or some one’s content, refuse to release the show at all, or when you form of it, causing confusion as to whether your show is related. inadvertently choose a poor time to re-release old episodes! GUEST RELEASE

The guest release is personal for me. I was recording an interview with a guest who was promoting her dietary supplements and related products. During the interview, I asked her if she had

intimate details, so I am unable to comment aside from what has been said publicly. You should have an agreement if you co-own a business with someone; some people even have agreements before entering into marriage. Accordingly, a co-host agreement may avoid legal battles and provide the peace of mind of knowing how everything is split if the show does become successful, which host bears responsibility for which functions on the show, how often the hosts will record, what happens in the event of a disagreement, what happens if the co-hosts go their separate ways, and other similar issues.

CO-HOST AGREEMENT

One of the shows I listen to regularly is by a host who was removed from his previous show and had to start over from scratch. I don’t know the

8 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

Similarly to a co-host agreement, a simple network agreement will avoid confusion and possibly liability if your show is part of a network or you are asked to host a new or existing show on a network. An agreement with the network host might address issues like splitting ad revenue, how to measure the success of the show on the network, how to disassociate from the network, who retains the show after a split from the network, and other issues. Again, when things are going well and everyone is making money, no one wants to think about the attorneys. Many of the legal issues that might arise in your show’s lifetime can be avoided, mitigated, or eliminated with a few simple agreements. PBJ Shawn M. Yesner is the founder and owner of Yesner Law, P.L., and an attorney in Tampa, Florida. Shawn hosts The Crushing Debt podcast, which supports the purpose of the law firm — to eliminate financial bullies from your life.

9. Keep the recorder on.

Don’t switch off the microphones until you are absolutely certain that the interview is over. “Have you ever experienced premature interview termination?” asked podcast consultant Donna Papacosta in her blog. “At the end of an interview … you thank the subject, snap your notebook shut, and switch off your recorder. In the chatter thatfollows,yourinterviewee utters the most quotable quote of the last half hour.” Ouch. That has happened to me far too many times!

BY RICHARD DAVIES

possible, use humor and charm to keep the interview from be-coming too formal. You should guide the interview, but in most cases the conversation is about what the guest has to say, not about you. However, don’t be afraid to gently push back if you disagree or are uncom-fortable with an answer. The sparks that fly in an interview can be the most entertaining moments.

podcast consultant, host, media coach

8. Be direct, and keep your questions short. When

9 TIPS FOR CONDUCTING GREAT INTERVIEWS

off or tell the audience how Have you ever listened to Storycorps on public radio? much they know. Founded by Dave Isay, this 4. Ask “dumb” questions. Humility is oral history project collects people’s stories — recording your friend. While on the and pre-serving thousands of campaign trail as a network interviews by moms, dads, news reporter, I often asked sisters, brothers, cousins, adult presidential candidates, children, couples, cousins, and “How do you feel?” at a press conference. The question friends. was sometimes accompanied Almost all of the interviews by eyerolls or quiet laughter are by complete amateurs. from fellow journalists. But Many are beautiful — deeply “How do you feel?” often moving and entertaining. If those Storycorps sharers can do a brought forth the best sound bite of the day. During an home-run interview, so can you! interview, ask a few questions that could provoke an HERE ARE NINE TIPS FOR emotional response. If guests CONDUCTING YOUR BEST use acronyms, slang, or fancy PODCAST INTERVIEW words, ask them to explain EVER. what they mean. This is 1. Prepare with a pre-interhelpful to your audience. view, but don’t make it too long. Your podcast interview 5.Be personal. Explore your should have moments of guest’s passion: Why did she spontaneity and surprise. Get write her new book? How did to know guests just a little bit his hobby become his job? during the pre-interview. It’s Asking personal questions can an opportunity to break the enhance the intimacy of your ice two or three days before interview. If you are worried recording your podcast. about how personal a quesTell guests about your show. tion could be, ask your guest Mention topics that may about it in the pre-interview. require further research or 6. A good interview is a preparation, but avoid giving conversation, not a formal out a full list of questions in list of questions and answers. advance. It’s super important to listen carefully to what your guest 2. Put your guests at ease. is saying. Despite preparation Be as warm and friendly as posand planning, great interviews sible. Make sure your guests are rarely follow a scripted course. comfortable and have a glass of water. This will help them 7. Ask followup questions. relax during the interview. You I like the simple words “Tell might want to start a conversame more.” This invites the tion with an amusing anecdote. guest to continue with a When planning an interview, story without throwing him podcasters and their producers off course with a lengthy should try to think of how the question. A brief invitation order of questions can build a to explain further is so story arc. much better than repeatedly flattering your guest. “That’s 3. Be curious and involved. so interesting,” or, “It’s such Hosts who are honestly a good point you’re making,” interested in what their guests works once or twice during a have to say are more engaging 20-minute conversation, but and fully present as opposed no more than that. to those who want to show

Two technical tips: Record

the conversation on two channels, one for the guest and one for you. That often results in better audio quality. And don’t be shy about editing. Even the most articulate guests repeat themselves and sometimes go off on tangents that may be distracting to your podcast audience. Careful editing may leave your listeners thinking that this was your best interview ever — even when it wasn’t. PBJ Richard Davies Davies is is aa podcast podcast consultant and host, media coach, journalist. Before becoming a podcaster, he was a staff correspondent at ABC News for nearly 30 years.

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

INDEPENDENT PODCASTERS AND CONSOLIDATION — A GOOD THING?

founder and executive chairman of PodcastOne

BY NORM PATTIZ

Over the past six years I’ve seen many changes in the podcasting space. Back in 2013, it was largely a medium dominated by small, independent podcasters. A few were supported by direct response advertising, with almost no access to national brands and total ad revenue of less than six figures. Now there’s hardly a segment of media that’s getting more attention than podcasting. Revenues are projected to break a billion dollars in 2021. Acquisitions of a few podcasters have taken place, totaling over $500 million. The number of podcasts is surging, with over 700,000 on Apple Podcasts. Over 50 percent of Americans now consume podcasts. So how has that changed the nature of the medium and the independent podcasters that have always made up the bulk of its content? The answer is, up to now, very little. But change is coming — change that will recognize and support the growth of independents as crucial to podcasting. Why are big players so intent on podcasting as a part of their offerings? They have to be. Traditional media is losing audience to digital content, and podcasting is at the forefront of that change. It’s programming that’s a direct challenge to the suppliers of the past, with far more direct access to consumers. Content producers have more control of their content, and advertisers have more options on the use of digital media, from premium selection to bundled, digitally measured content. Who are the consolidators, anyway? Clearly, some are from the community and seeking to create opportunities and move the medium forward. Others, not so much. When I found podcasting after leaving radio

syndication and the network business, my first thought was, “Wow! Content creation direct to the consumer without the need to filter it through formats, or the opinions of gatekeepers with no real passion or understanding for the space.” That “wow factor” not only still exists, it’s more important and powerful than ever. Most of the consolidators fit in the following groups:

2. The Radio Companies — looking for solutions to declining audiences and poor financial performance. Also, the forward-looking companies focused on local or demand content. 3. Podcast Networks — that recognize they need a mix of content and an efficient operating philosophy to meet the growing needs of rapidly expanding content suppliers and advertisers, and still turn a profit.

1. The “Big Boys” — digital, multi-purpose audio platforms If you’re an independent seeking spoken word content looking to grow audience and to augment their primarily music content whose growth has potentially revenue, here’s what slowed, leveled off, or declined. you will need beyond your own content: production facilities, a distribution platform, metric solutions, promotion, social media, ad representation, production assistance, accounting and collections, and a resource to consult with who has experience in podcasting. Remember this: there are multiple sources for each of the categories listed. Not all of them provide the same information. In fact, most don’t, and some differ widely. Each one is vitally important to the success of your podcast. Some podcast networks provide much, or all, of your needs. Because of the amount of support needed, many, if not most, networks, are not yet profitable, so if you choose this route, know your partner. All said, there are now more options than ever before for independent producers to find solutions that fit your needs. Existing solutions, and brand new ones, are available now. Choose wisely, and welcome the opportunities that await you. It’s really just the beginning, so fasten your seatbelts, and enjoy the ride. PBJ

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BY MARK ASQUITH

believes in the subject matter as much as they do. Through that lens, creators should be encouraged to look at podcasting as a medium without the potential for a hard-edged “end” to its “golden age” but instead as a medium that should be cared for, nurtured, and developed just as an author loves developing the written word into a deeply meaningful, entertaining story. Podcasting will continue to develop, and throughout its turbulent teenage years the industry needs everyone to chip in — from the high-budget production houses to the independent creators — to act as a sense check now and then. It needs us to remember that no matter what happens, the goal is always to connect a human to a human so the industry can continue to develop positively and organically. Podcasting belongs to you. Podcasting belongs to me. Podcasting belongs to the person who chooses to reveal their voice to the world and maybe, more than ever, podcasting belongs to the creators who quiet that voice just long enough to hear that they’re making a difference. PB PBJ

podcasting expert

now, podcasting will thrive for those who feed it healthily and, as it always has done, in the communities that are built around each of our unique voices. For many, “the golden age of podcasting” is used interchangeably with “It has never been easier to start a podcast.” And while that may be true in terms of technology, is there a risk of investing your time and money into a medium that requires patience, clarity, trial and error, and complete commitment to improvement and better serving your audience when actually, you simply entered it because you were told it was “good for business” or “something you just have to do because everyone is doing it”? We podcasters are a unique bunch. We are storytellers, we are entertainers, and our goal is to connect one person to another via a common interest and to present a common voice that guides listeners to come together around our shared stories, wisdom, interests, beliefs, and ethics. As an independent creator, this “golden age” can feel scary. In fact, when looked at through a certain lens, perhaps this isn’t the “golden age” we thought it was. After all, there is more highly produced, budget-driven, and sponsored content available in podcasting right now than there has ever been. So exactly who is this “golden age of podcasting” for? I wonder if we should reframe this. The last couple of years will be recognized as the time that the wider world began to embrace the unique position of podcasts as a communication and entertainment platform, while often not quite understanding the nuances of the medium and the desires of podcast listeners to connect with a creator who

WELCOME TO THE GOLDEN AGE OF PODCASTING ... OR NOT!

I remember reading every DC Comics mainstream issue published between 1985’s Crisis on Infinite Earths and 2011’s New 52. That’s when I started my first “real” hobby blog and, subsequently, my first podcast. The blog, and later the podcast, were called Two Shots to the Head. I began the show because I was told “This is the golden age of podcasting!” And so I turned on my microphone and recorded the first episode with my buddy Garry, and I was hooked! Every day, I hear the words “This is the golden age of podcasting!” Sure, it’s a really nice and punchy way of saying, “Hey, the industry is only getting bigger and better” and, “Just like comics, this era is different from or more ‘modern’ than the last.” But is our industry suffering a little because of the phrase? The amount of traction the industry has seen during 2019 is staggering, from exceeding advertising predictions to floods of VC money entering the space, sometimes to solve problems that are created, well, just to be solved. Broadly, this is good for the industry. It helps awareness to continually grow, and the manner in which each of the major podcast directories is developing is beginning to edge toward overcoming some of the discoverability challenges the medium has faced. But this isn’t the “golden age” of podcasting. This is the podcasting gold rush. More is better when it comes to knowledge, expertise, and a willingness to help, but as an industry, we should think of podcasting as a long-term investment in ourselves. Podcasting has always been deeper than money, and long after the money has stopped rolling into the industry, like it is right

Mark Asquith is CEO & co-founder of RebelBaseMedia. Keynote speaker, marketer.

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

10 QUESTIONS

WITH HALL OF FAMER DAVE JACKSON DAVE’S STATS: That leads me to the second red flag. When I talk to someone who wants to start a podcast yesterday so they can quit their job in six weeks, I get to be the “bad guy” and smash their hopes and dreams. There are small businesses that don’t make any profit for years. Yet somehow this person with no prior audience is going to start with zero listeners, zero experience, and quit their job in six weeks, six months, etc. People hate it when I say this, but it seems to take around three years.

• 4 Years Podcasting • 3,600 Total Episodes • 4.3 Million Downloads • 32 Different Podcasts • 20 Conference Presentations • Inducted Into Hall of Fame in 2018

Dave Jackson is an awardwinning 2018 Podcaster Hall of Fame inductee and the founder of the School of Podcasting (www.schoolofpodcasting. com). He is also part of the tech support team for Libsyn.com, which enables Dave to say he has helped more podcasters than any other human on the planet.

You reach a global audience who can listen any time they want. If you were valuable enough to grow an audience, you can monetize your show. You can change people’s lives. I’ve received two letters from my audience stating they were going to end their lives but decided to start a podcast instead.

PBJ: WHY SHOULD SOMEONE START A PODCAST?

PBJ: WHEN SHOULD SOMEONE (WHO THINKS THEY CAN) NOT START A PODCAST?

Jackson: I hear people all the time say, “I am talking to people I have no business talking to.” You will be seen as an expert. You build a bridge with your current and future audience.

PBJ: HOW MUCH MONEY SHOULD THE AVERAGE PERSON PLAN TO LOSE IN YEAR ONE OF PODCASTING?

Jackson: I typically say starting a podcast is around $300 for a solo show. Add the cost of web and media hosting, and you’re looking at $385. If you’re doing your own web design, throw in another $99 for a WordPress theme. PBJ: HOW IMPORTANT IS HAVING GOOD-QUALITY AUDIO?

Jackson: When I started in 2005, many of us were using, and getting away with using, Jackson: There are a couple of those “stick” microphones that things that are red flags. If you came with the laptop. Those can’t explain why you want to days are gone. However, you do start a podcast, or the answer is, “It sounds like fun,” I get worried. not need to spend thousands

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of dollars to have good audio. I have an Electrovoice RE320 microphone that is $300. I have a Samson Q2u that is roughly $60. Does the $300 sound better? Yes. Does it sound $240 better? No way. I’m of the school that your audio can’t be distracting. If you bought a Blue Yeti microphone and put it in the middle of the table trying to pick up four people, you’re going to sound like it was recorded in a subway tunnel. If your audience has to grab a volume knob to listen to your show, that is a deal-breaker.

once you make it public, realize you’re going to tweak it a bit — and that’s OK. Athletes tweak their performance every year. PBJ: DO YOU BELIEVE PEOPLE CAN BURN OUT FROM PODCASTING, AND WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

Jackson: Hands down, the number one thing that will burn people out is comparing themselves to others. I’ve seen people jumping for joy when they have 200 downloads per episode swing to deep depression because they compared their show to another, PBJ: HOW OFTEN SHOULD similar show. Do not do this Why? Because all you see YOU POST TO SOCIAL is the downloads (and many MEDIA ABOUT YOUR times people lie about their SHOW IF IT’S WEEKLY? stats). What you don’t see is that Jackson: This is one of those person has a team of eight while “depends” types of things, and you are an army of one. That if you ask 10 people you get person does this professionally 10 different answers. I try to and had a background in media, promote my show twice during while you are holding down two the week (maybe three times), jobs, a spouse, and three kids. but I also try to link to articles, start conversations, and do other Focus on your audience, not things that aren’t self-promotion other podcasters. The podcasting isn’t stressful, on my social accounts. it’s trying to balance your time with work, family, and a podcast PBJ: WHAT IS THE that is hard. BIGGEST MISTAKE NEW Another tip for those starting PODCASTERS MAKE, AND HOW CAN THEY AVOID IT? out: record a few episodes so Jackson: We have two extremes you can feel the “Whoa, this takes longer than I thought” for this question. We have the sensation. Then choose your people who do zero planning schedule. and fire up a microphone and let it rip. They talk to their best friend about all the things that PBJ: IN YOUR YEARS happened growing up. The OF WORKING WITH audience has no idea what they PODCASTERS, WHAT IS are talking about. THE AVERAGE AMOUNT The other extreme is the OF TIME BEFORE A person who has thought about PODCAST REALLY CATCHES ON AND their target audience. They know they want to podcast. They BECOMES SUCCESSFUL? even bought a microphone, but Jackson: Here is that answer that was two years ago. They again: “It depends.” For me, overthink everything. They want when I’m working with Joe and their “launch” to be perfect. Jill podcasters, it’s years (because Consequently, they never launch. they are doing this part-time Figure out who your target with other responsibilities in audience is and what they want to their lives). I’ve seen people hear. Then give it to them. Then around the two- to three-year

range really start to impact their audience (because they have a better understanding of their audience, they are more confident on the microphone, and they’ve grown their network). I’ve seen other shows grow to be huge where the host(s) has a history of being in the media, has friends in the media (who promote the show), and come in with a built-in audience. They still need to hold their audience, but those people come out of the gate in what appears to be an overnight success (but behind the scenes, they’ve developed their skills and network for years).

do workshops, and now has a successful training business. Is it possible for a guitar player to make a living as a musician? A writer? An actor? All of this is possible, but you need talent, determination, and luck. PBJ: WHAT WILL THE PODCASTING SPACE LOOK LIKE IN FIVE YEARS?

Jackson: Podcasting will continue to grow. People who don’t listen to podcasts now don’t know why they should listen. They probably tried one show, did a search, and found the Three Guys One Brain show. It was awful, and they never tried again. As more people start talking PBJ: IS PODCASTING about the good podcasts, A HOBBY, OR CAN and they hear what they are SOMEONE WHO DOESN’T missing, they will come back. HAVE A RECOGNIZABLE Countries outside the U.S. NAME ACTUALLY QUIT (India and China) are starting THEIR JOB AND MAKE to catch up. I believe we will A LIVING BEING A see it continue to grow. PODCASTER? We will probably see some Jackson: One of the things ideas come in and fail again I like about my friend John (free media hosting has been Lee Dumas is he is the perfect tried multiple times, and unless poster boy. He was an ex-real you are purchased and migrated estate agent, a former soldier. Now John will also let you know into another company, free is a horrible business model). he had six figures in the bank, Eventually, you are going and hired a mentor. He also to see VC money start to dry has so much dedication and up, as there is some seriously motivation that the Energizer stupid money coming into Bunny gets tired looking at the space. There are people John. Going back to my threewho keep launching apps to year point, John got his first sponsor six months into his daily solve the “discovery problem” that just burn through money. show, Entrepreneurs on Fire. If (Discovering a podcast is not it had been a weekly show, that a problem. Discovering a good would’ve taken three years. podcast can be challenging.) Natalie Eckdahl of BizChix. Wherever podcasting goes, com was a coach before her I’ll be here helping people podcast, but her podcast sped understand it and embrace it. up her business growth, and PBJ now she is even holding live events for her audience and recently published a book. Her TO CONTACT DAVE: www.schoolofpodcasting.com husband quit his job to help dave@schoolofpodcasting.com with the podcast. Darren Dake is a coroner (CoronerTalk.com/), and over the years was asked to speak,

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

DO YOU WANT TO BE A GREAT PODCASTER?

Learn from one of the best: Colin Gray, a.k.a. The Podcast Host 14 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

Colin Gray is one of the most highly respected minds in the podcasting space today. He has a background in web design and higher education. During the late 2000s he worked parttime at Universities in Scotland, teaching and working in technology-enhanced learning. That meant figuring out better ways to teach students using technology, then teaching that to lecturers. Of course, one of those technologies was podcasting, and he was tasked with learning how it worked! So in 2008 he made his first

help others learn the craft at the same time. Over the past three years Gray has built a team to help him create products and services to help podcasters. That includes Alitu, a web app that makes it easy to produce, edit, and publish shows. It also includes the Podcast Host Academy, a membership site that includes a range of courses and live coaching to help with all aspects of podcasting.

PBJ: PODCRAFT IS A GREAT TOOL FOR NEW PODCASTERS.

podcast — eight episodes that taught university lecturers how to make their own shows for their students. He taught that course, and updated the podcast every year, until around 2010. Toward the end of that time, Gray was also doing a lot of web design and online business work on the side, and the combination of these areas led to his starting up ThePodcastHost.com. That’s where he started to grow his knowledge and authority around podcasting more widely, and to

Gray: Podcraft is our own show about how to run a successful podcast. The first season of Podcraft was actually the last version of that university course I taught, all those years back. It was a launch season — 10 episodes that taught you how to create a podcast in the simplest possible steps. From there, I wanted to stick to the same seasons-based format, teaching all aspects of podcasting step by step. So each season is basically a course on a particular subject, such as monetization (season 5) or podcast equipment (season 11). I love doing that show alongside Matthew McLean, my partner at ThePodcastHost.com, and I think we do it in a really unique way, adding to the range of “podcasts about podcasting” out there in the world.

PBJ: WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR NEW PODCASTERS?

Gray: Something that a lot of people miss is preparing a good topic. I know it’s not the most exciting part, but do a little planning! Too many people believe they know their subject back to front, and so they just start talking. That leads to long, meandering rambles about topics no one cares about, punctuated by short useful segments. Instead, with good planning, you can achieve a long useful show, punctuated by short, entertaining rambles! To make it concrete, get out there and find the questions people are asking in your niche — use tools like AnswerThePublic.com to find so many good questions, or search your topic on Quora to see what people are asking. Search on Buzzsumo.com to see what topics people are getting excited about. Once you have a list, type a bunch of them into Google Trends and see what’s most popular, what’s growing. Then plan a show around the best. That’s how you plan a topic that people will enjoy and will engage with, and that will be found by new listeners. PBJ: WHAT’S THE BIGGEST MISTAKE YOU’VE MADE PODCASTING, SO OUR READERS CAN AVOID IT?

Gray: The most common mistake is to overcomplicate your equipment setup in the beginning. Novices tend to prioritize audio quality and shiny equipment over content. They’ll spend a fortune on equipment and then find it’s so complex that it takes forever to set up, or something breaks every time. Instead, buy yourself a simple, good-quality USB microphone (check out our list of good podcast microphones here if it

helps) and use that in the early days. It’ll keep barriers really low, which leads to regular output and regular practice. That pairing is powerful — the practice builds your skills, and the regular output builds your audience. Over time you’ll get better and better, and your audience growth will accelerate. Only then, when it’s finally worth it, do you start to worry about upgrading your equipment. PBJ: HOW CAN PODCASTERS MAKE MONEY? REAL MONEY, A LIVING, DOING A SHOW?

Gray: Here’s the sequence that a lot of the more successful shows follow: 1. Think of a few products or services that you use that also appeal to your audience. If you fall into your own target audience (pretty common!), this is pretty easy. What products do you love? 2. Sign up for their affiliate program. Or, even better, find the product on Amazon, and sign up as an associate there. Yes, that only works for physical products, but it works for many! 3. From day one, include a sponsor slot or two for those products — talk about how much you love them, and send people away to buy them on your affiliate link. 4. Once you’re in the groove, you’ve started to build some engagement, and people are used to buying on your recommendation (often episode 20+), start surveying your audience on a regular basis. Ask them this: what do you struggle with most? What’s your biggest pain point around this topic? 5. Build an info product — a book, a course, a video series — that solves that pain. Answer their questions. Solve their problems. 6. Swap your affiliate sponsorship slots for your own product. Your audience are already used to hearing you

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

recommend things, so they’ll listen, and take action. 7. Up the ante by also offering much higher-price mentoring, answering the same question, but adding personal support from yourself. Sell this too — but not so much that it takes up all your time and stops you developing other new products! 8. If you’re feeling brave, start to investigate a working product to solve the problem. This isn’t just information, it’s a bit of software, a tool, a physical item — whatever suits your market. That can all take a couple of years to work through, but affiliate income can start to pay some bills within three to six months, and info products and mentoring can really ramp that up within six to 12 months. PBJ: WHAT ARE SOME GREAT WAYS TO MARKET A PODCAST?

Gray: Podcasting is great in that it really benefits from promotion methods that don’t scale. You can earn from a far smaller audience in podcasting than anywhere else, simply because podcast audiences are more engaged, more loyal, and more likely to take action. So one podcast listener is worth 10 video

watchers, which is worth 100 blog readers, in terms of taking action. One example is events. Events cost money to go to, they take time to attend, and you can’t talk to that many people. So in the world of blogging, with conversion rates of 0.5 percent, it’s a slightly pointless forum for promoting what you do. But if you go to an event and talk 20 people into listening to your show, then that’s 20 loyal listeners added to your subscriber base. Because podcasting is so good at generating action, five or 10 of them might actually end up buying your product. Even more so because they’ve met you in real life, recognize your voice on the show, so trust grows much more quickly. Add to that the fact that that trust then leads to referrals, which means their friends start listening, and it starts to multiply. A lot of people have disregarded traditional, personal ways of marketing in a world of social media where you can reach the entire world. But podcasting’s personal and hightouch nature means that the unscalable methods work again. Get to events. Send letters. Spend time in online

communities. Any way you can spend just a little extra time to do something personal for someone. It’s a good method for podcasters. PBJ: THE LAST YEAR OR SO HAS BEEN CRAZY IN THE PODCASTING SPACE. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT YOU’VE SEEN GOING ON?

Gray: I’m always reluctant to buy into the “We’ve made it to mainstream!” mentality, but you’re right, there’s definitely been a bit of acceleration, and a lot more money coming into the space! I’m wary of too much of that money ending up in the same old places — the top few percent growing by leaps and bounds while indie podcasters and companies don’t see much of it. But I think the real indie roots of podcasting will help in that, and we’ll see good growth across the board. PBJ: GIVE US THREE PREDICTIONS ON WHAT YOU BELIEVE WILL HAPPEN IN THE SPACE OVER THE NEXT ONE TO THREE YEARS.

Gray: 1. Apple will do something big. I don’t believe they’re going to sit around while

16 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

Spotify and others eat their lunch. We’re already seeing a move with them splitting up iTunes, but I think they might come out with something great on the monetization side that ties into the fact that iOS users have been, and probably will remain for a while yet, the biggest spenders by far on apps and smartphone purchases. 2. Related, there will be a lot more products released that help podcasters engage with their communities directly, and allow that community to support them. I’m already seeing the start of a few of these, with “membership”style systems really tailored to delivering audio. 3. I think that at least one, maybe two or three of the “old guard” podcasting companies will be gone within three years. There are so many new companies doing great things that it seems like it’s taking many of the existing players by surprise. The early lead won’t suffice, in my opinion, and I’ll admit, I woke up to this almost too late with our main site — ThePodcastHost.com. We had the lead, lost it, gained it back, and now I’m working hard to make sure we stay ahead! PBJ: WHAT ARE YOUR FIVE FAVORITE PODCASTS?

Gray: 1. Robinhood Snacks — the only news show I can listen to. Brilliant hosts, great chemistry, and keeps me up to date. 2. Startups for the Rest of Us — love the conversations and the insights shared by Rob and Mike. 3. Talking Elite Fitness — I’m a Crossfit addict, so this is my fix, every week! 4. The Kevin Rose Show — deep dives into deep thinkers. Kevin’s one of my Internet heroes. 5. A Scottish Podcast — not for the sensitive, but flippin’ hilarious! PBJ

18 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

In January 2019 former heavyweight boxing champ (1986-1990) Mike Tyson launched Hotboxin, an interview-style podcast he hosts with former NFL-er Eben Britton (Jacksonville Jaguars and Chicago Bears). The two friends interview celebrities and athletes in an El Segundo, California, studio filled with smoke. Cannabis brought Tyson and Britton together. The Tyson Ranch is a cannabis company started by the former champ, and since leaving the NFL in 2014, Britton has been speaking about the benefits of cannabis for athletes, specifically as an alternative to opiates. Britton has also launched his own

organization called Athletes for Care, which is very much based in cannabis advocacy for athletes and is a resource for athletes transitioning into life after sports. A friend of Britton’s introduced Britton to Tyson, and they’ve been friends ever since. As part of the Athletes for Care organization, in 2018 Britton hosted a podcast called The Caveman Poet Society. Tyson was hosting a podcast called Bike and Mike, which morphed into Hotboxin in 2019. New episodes of Hotboxin are released every Monday, highly produced for YouTube. Tyson’s guest list has included Dale Earnhardt Jr., Wiz Khalifa, Daymond John, Piers Morgan, LL Cool J, Snoop Dogg, Roseanne Barr, and

Terry Crews, just to name a few. Shows range from 22 minutes to well over two hours. The language can be salty, but there’s no denying that Tyson and Britton really enjoy being podcasters and are having a great time every time they turn on their mics. PBJ: WHY DID YOU GET INTO PODCASTING?

Tyson: Podcasts are awesome. It’s a no-brainer. PBJ: WHAT’S THE COOLEST PART ABOUT BEING A PODCASTER?

Tyson: I can say whatever I want, and no one can check me. In my perspective, podcasts are the future, and I wanted to be a part of that.

BY ED RYAN

PUNCHES HIS WAY INTO PODCASTING

Editor-In-Chief

Mike TYSON

“In my perspective, podcasts are the future, and I wanted to be a part of that.” — Mike Tyson

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

Tyson with Rob Hickman, his business partner at Tyson Ranch

Tyson records Hotboxin with former NFL player Rashad Evans.

“It is amazing to see how these superstar talents have gotten to be where they are. Then looking at the humanity behind that and how we can all access that type of energy in our own lives.”

With former NFL player Jay Alford

— Eben Britton PBJ: WITH ALL THE TIMES YOU’VE BEEN INTERVIEWED OVER THE YEARS, DID YOU EVER THINK YOU’D BE THE INTERVIEWER?

Tyson: Every show is different, and I’m surprised where it goes sometimes myself.

Tyson: Absolutely not — and I’m not, really. I just try to speak the truth.

Tyson: As much as possible. Britton: Today [our interview was in July 2019 — PBJ] we have two podcasts on the docket. We do anywhere from three to six recorded shows a week. We are busting our ass putting a lot of

PBJ: WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH EACH SHOW?

PBJ: HOW OFTEN DO YOU DO THE SHOW?

content into the can. It’s a matter of how much time these guys have on their hands to chop, screw, and edit it down to the beautiful finished product you see every Monday night. PBJ: DO YOU HAVE A FAVORITE INTERVIEW?

Tyson: They are all very intriguing. Britton: Everyone is very interesting — a guy like LL Cool

20 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

J, to see the amount of energy he generates. It’s all because of his mindset. Since he was a kid, it has been about being the greatest version of himself he could possibly be — not leaving anything on the table, whether that was in music, as an actor, performer, host, etc. It is amazing to see how these superstar talents have gotten to be where they are. Then looking at the humanity behind that and how we can all

“I view podcasts as the future, and it’s interesting because they are a throwback to radio.” — Eben Britton

he smoked for the first time, and that surprised me.

Tyson shares a laugh with actor and podcaster Michael Rapaport.

access that type of energy in our own lives. PBJ: WHO ARE SOME OF THE GUESTS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HAVING ON?

Tyson: Dave Chappelle, Kanye, Rihanna. PBJ: WHY DO YOU BELIEVE YOU WORK WELL AS A CO-HOST WITH EBEN?

Tyson: Eben’s a really smart guy, and he can keep up with me in the hotbox. We feed off each other. He’s very insightful. It’s a good combination. He’s great with people and a great human being. The chemistry is really working. PBJ: WHO HAS BEEN YOUR FAVORITE INTERVIEW SO FAR, AND WHY?

Tyson: Piers Morgan, because

opportunities with the podcast itself. It is also a tremendous way to get marketing material PBJ: WHAT DO YOU THINK out there and content to brand, OF HOW PODCASTING and an amplifier of anything HAS TAKEN OFF? we are doing — for instance, Tyson: I think it’s awesome. Tyson Ranch. Ot is a great way People know who I am from my to market the cannabis company podcast. My friends say, “Mike, when it is very difficult to do any everybody is calling to be on your marketing or advertising in the podcast.” cannabis space. Britton: I love the medium. I view podcasts as the future, and PBJ: YOU HAVE STAR it’s interesting because they are POWER TO BRING IN a throwback to radio. Because GREAT GUESTS. WHAT it can be something that is ADVICE DO YOU HAVE very stream-of-consciousness FOR A NEW, UNKNOWN — people can listen in their PODCASTER? car, working out, doing things. Tyson: You should get You feel as though you are in advice from another unknown the room with the individuals podcaster. I would say go for it. having the conversation. You Give it everything you got. Be can download a lot of inforextremely dedicated. It takes a lot mation in an easy way. People of responsibility and dedication. are now pumping billions of dollars into producing podcast PBJ: WHAT ARE YOUR content. I’m excited about it. THREE FAVORITE It’s one of my favorite mediums PODCASTS? to get news or information. We Tyson: Hotboxin, of course, are building one of the biggest but to be honest, I watch a lot of podcasts in the world. YouTube. PBJ: DO YOU LOOK AT THE PODCAST AS A MONEYMAKER OR A MARKETING ARM?

PBJ: WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT OUR READERS TO KNOW ABOUT THE SHOW?

Britton: Both. I think this industry continues to grow. There are definite moneymaking

Tyson: That we are the best show in the world. PBJ

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

founder of Heartcast Media

BY MOLLY RULAND

THE BARRIER TO ENTRY IS VALUE — NOT COST There are a lot of catchphrases and buzzwords floating around these days in regard to podcasting. One of the most common is that podcasting has lowered the barrier to entry by offering an affordable option to reach the masses. What I love about this idea is that marginalized communities will now have a slightly more even playing field when it comes to getting a seat at the microphone. Communities can use podcasting to spread

messages, raise money, and unify people. It’s a beautiful and unique opportunity that we have never seen before. However, what’s missing from this conversation is the actual cost of creating and maintaining a podcast that will have impact and provide value. There is no shortage of articles telling you that you can start a podcast with just a few dollars, but there is an assumption that the reader has a laptop or other computer, or even a place to

22 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

record. There is a lot missing from the idea that podcasting doesn’t cost. If you have all these things — we can even call them privileges — then sure, podcasting can be a cheap buy-in. You have to ask yourself, how will my podcast provide value? If we compare the mentality of thinking about cost as the barrier to entry, rather than value, we can easily get lost in the obvious gaps. All you need is a pen and paper to write, but that doesn’t mean the barrier to entry for

being a great journalist or writer is the cost of the pen and pad. One can buy a great camera or even get one as a gift, but that doesn’t mean the barrier to entry for being a great photographer has been overcome. Equipment won’t give you a plan or a timeline. Equipment is simply equipment, nothing more.

money, and if your audio is bad, I cannot turn it off fast enough — and I don’t think I am alone. I think that telling people anyone can start a podcast because of the low cost of the equipment is setting people up to fail, and that ain’t cool. Creating a podcast is hard work and it requires a commitment. Without a plan A PLAN AND A GOAL. you will almost certainly burn Will your podcast provide out, and while I love a good value? How? We live in a noisy failure, there is no reason world. If you want to have a to willingly walk into one, podcast but you don’t know especially if there is a voice what to talk about, please don’t. that truly needs to be heard. Anyone can get an Anchor We want those communities to account and record a podcast have a voice, and we want you from their phone, but that to create a podcast, but we want doesn’t mean anyone is going to you to understand the reality of listen to it. what that means. Podcasting is all about audio. Sometimes audio and video, Let’s start from the but mostly audio. If your audio beginning... isn’t good, you are done before First we need to consider the you’ve started. You could be environment in which you will telling me where to find free be recording and how many

people you will be recording. A lot of people have the plan to start small and buy bigger later, which I think is shortsighted. You should only have to buy your equipment once, so it’s important to get the right gear. There is no one size fits all — it really depends on you and your setup. Will you be recording in a studio? Will you be recording on the go in loud places? How many people will you be recording? Will you have people calling in, or will they always be inperson recordings? Will you have an engineer or assistant to help you? Do you want to incorporate video into your podcast? Lots of people like to buy expensive mics, but then run into issues when they want to add someone else but can’t afford another microphone. I

run my entire studio with AKG D5s, and they work great. They are affordable and reliable and perfect for loud spaces. What gear you use depends on where you’ll be using it. If anyone is telling you what equipment you need without asking you about the environment, it’s a sure sign they are either trying to sell you something or they just really don’t know what they are talking about. What works for someone else might not work for you. Let’s talk about the true math of creating, hosting, and marketing a podcast. SUBSCRIPTIONS: • Hosting: $180 yearly ($15/month) • Website: $180 yearly ($15/month) • Canva subscription: $144 ($12/month) • Editing software: $252 yearly ($20.99/month

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podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

•

for Adobe Audition) Video editing: $252 yearly ($20.99/month for Adobe Rush) Annual Cost: $750$1,008 per year

live and what access you have to people who do this for a living. If you plan on doing your own work, you also need to calculate what your time is worth.

•

the engineer. Fourpack $199, five-pack $299. Total Cost: $767$3,200

RECORDING & EDITING You’ll need a computer to do You will need to host your EQUIPMENT: all the editing, or at the very podcast with an RSS feed, • Laptop: $200-$2,000 least to upload the files so you and you will want a website — • Mixers: Zoom L-12: can send them to your engineer. these are very low quotes for $599, or Rodecaster You can use a Chromebook or both. Yes, you can go to a free Pro $599. For the similar machine for the lighter hosting service, but you get what smaller, more mobile stuff, but if you plan on editing you pay for and the party will option, the Zoom H6 your files yourself, you will need eventually end. You should also is $399. If you plan on something a little heftier. If you read the fine print very carefully being mobile, this is have a more powerful computer to make sure you aren’t giving a great case for the already, you can take $200up the rights to your content Rodecaster Pro. $2,000 off the costs listed above. with that “free” plan. The devil • Mics: AKG D5s: $99 You will need a mixer of is in the details, for real. (using these as a some sort. The Zoom L12 is These subscription costs are reference, not as a a solid piece of equipment assuming you will be doing all guide) and has eight inputs and five your own editing and mastering. • Headphones: Audio headphone lines. This will If you don’t plan on doing Technica has really allow you to record up to eight that, you need to account for great bundles — you people with ease. This is such post-production costs, which are can get a four- or five- a great mixer, we cannot love anywhere from $20-$100 per pack and both come it enough. Alternatively, the EG-Ad-PodcastJournal-Halfpage-PRESS.pdf 1 7/22/19 PM hour depending on where you with a special pair for5:55 Rodecaster Pro is a straight-up

CMY

24 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

beast. It’s so simple and does so much. If you are going to have call-ins or mobile guests, this is the best choice without question. However, you can only use four mics with this mixer so if you plan on having more, the H12 is the better bet. Lastly, the Zoom H6 is the smallest, baddest, most functional little mixer on the planet. It fits into your pocket (they would have to be pretty big pockets, but it’s not impossible). You can record four to six people with this mixer, and it has a built-in sound card, so it’s incredibly portable and awesome. Why do multiple mics and inputs matter, you ask? You want to record every voice on a different channel. If you have one guest who speaks low and another who is loud, you will have an editing nightmare if they are both on the same channel. Sharing a mic is

a rookie move for so many reasons — don’t do it. Cutting corners on the production will add so many hours to the back end of this production. Pay now or later, the choice is yours. Mics are very important. But don’t spend $400 on a mic; there is absolutely no reason for you to do that. Your content will be heard on earbuds or in cars, not at Madison Square Garden. This is not the Grammys, so keep it simple. You don’t want a mic that will pick up everything. Unless, of course, your podcast is about throat noises and mouth sounds. Headphones … don’t forget about the headphones. Even Joe Rogan wears cans on his show. Wanna know why? Quality control. Everyone instinctively moves away from the mic. It’s science. If you or your guests are wearing headphones, you will know when you cannot be

heard. There is nothing worse than spending eight hours editing a one-hour podcast because someone was off the mic the whole damn time. Trust me, it’s the pits.

• • • •

PRODUCTION & MARKETING

•

Here is a list of the items you will need to market your podcast.

• •

• • • •

• • • • • • • • •

Logo Branding Podcast website YouTube page, with cover art and thumbnail Instagram account Facebook page Patreon page Twitter page Show description Segments and outline Show outro and call to action Bitly account Show hashtags and

tags Social share template Sponsor pitch deck Approval from iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, etc. Highlight videos or audiograms for social Release schedule and content calendar E-mail marketing Halo marketing template for guests

Have I completely overwhelmed you yet? I guess that is kind of the point. You can do this. But I also want to set you up for success. You want to know the reality of this, right? The good news is you can get grants and you can get sponsors to help with the costs, but the time you will spend will be much greater than any of these costs. It takes time to produce a quality podcast. You will need to spend hours every week marketing your podcast.

You will have serious learning curves throughout the entire process, and you will never stop learning. You will be challenged in ways you didn’t think possible. Low-key, it’s going to be a true test of your constitution. Hate rejection? Don’t start a podcast. It’s going to take time to get traction, no matter how good your content is. So if you are thinking about starting a podcast, understand that it’s going to be a lot of work and quite possibly the most rewarding thing you can do for yourself and your brand — but it’s not going to be easy or pretty. PBJ

Molly D Ruland is the founder of Heartcast Media and can be reached at 833.763.5463 molly@heartcastmedia.com.

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PODCASTING. IT’S ALL ABOUT COMMUNITY Chris Kirmitsos is well known in the podcasting community. He’s one of the first in the space to launch a state association (the Florida Podcasting Association), and to start monthly meetups focused 100 percent on podcasting. He’s also the founder of the Podfest Expo, held in Tampa every year. If you’re thinking about starting a podcasting Meetup group in your community to help spread the word about the side hustle we all love, Chris is the person you want to learn from. PBJ: WHY DID YOU LAUNCH THE FLORIDA PODCASTERS ASSOCIATION?

Kirmitsos: To have a support system in the state of Florida for

tions where attendees have the opportunity to share their name, show, and niche. Then we highlight any podcasters that have launched their podcast since last we met. Each month we have a subject-matter expert on the topic of podcasting and/or YouTube for 30 minutes. Then service providers share how PBJ: WHAT IS THE they can help people in the ORGANIZATION ABOUT? group, and we leave the last 30 HOW OFTEN DO YOU minutes for connections and MEET, AND WHAT ARE collaborations. It’s an amazing THE MEETINGS LIKE? Kirmitsos: We are a facilitated environment. environment that focuses on growth personally and profesPBJ: WHY FACEBOOK sionally. We meet the second AND MEETUP TO Tuesday of each month from PROMOTE? 6:30 to 8:30 p.m. in Tampa. We Kirmitsos: Facebook is a great post the meeting on Facebook way to remind friends and famand Meetup.com. Meetings ily what’s going on, and many start with 10-second introducof them will share the Facebook our local podcasters. I thought it was important for us to crowdsource ideas with one another on topics like tech, audience growth, and monetization, as well as help newbies get started with the right information. Right now the organization has about 1,300 members.

26 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

event page. The Facebook group is to keep the dialogue going outside of our physical meetups. The meetups are the core of what we do, as real, meaningful relationships are formed during those two-hour meetings. I should also be using Eventbrite, which would add another two or three new attendees a month if I were executing perfectly. PBJ: WHY SHOULD SOMEONE START A PODCAST MEETUP GROUP IN THEIR COMMUNITY?

Kirmitsos: Having a meetup in your local community is extremely valuable as it allows a group of content creators to idea-share and collaborate on best practices, and it shortens everyone’s learning curve. For the leader of the group, you get to build valuable relationships and connections. It’s a great way to meet up with peers and collaborate. Instead of taking a course on leadership, running a meetup

is a real way to get hands-on experience dealing with others and helping them grow. PBJ: HOW OFTEN SHOULD THE MEETINGS BE, AND WHY?

Kirmitsos: We’ve met once a month for the last five years and love seeing one another. I have done meetups weekly and monthly. For me and the group, once a month seems to keep everyone excited to see one another. Just like podcasting, whatever frequency you choose, make sure you’re consistent! PBJ: WHAT SHOULD A NEW GROUP LEADER FOCUS ON?

Kirmitsos: Care about your community. Think about what they need over your needs. Too many people start groups for purely selfish reasons and never ask themselves, “What does the community need, and how can I serve them?” It’s truly a

fulfilling experience when done for the right reasons. PBJ: WHY DO YOU CHARGE $10?

Kirmitsos: Early on we realized having a free meeting was great, but there was a lack of commitment on behalf of many of the people who would attend. Therefore, I made the decision to charge for the value we bring to the community — a nominal fee of $10 per person. This has made a huge difference in the commitment of the attendees. It also weeds out people who do not value what we bring to the table.

choose when to attend. Since we are a community first, we chose not to publicize the educational topic of the month. If someone asks us, we tell them. We found this small tweak has helped us retain and grow our group by leaps and bounds. PBJ

Chris Kirmitsos can be reached at chris@podfestexpo.com

PBJ: WHY DO YOU NEVER POST YOUR EDUCATIONAL TOPIC?

Kirmitsos: We found early on that people were attending meetings based on the topic we posted. This was not helping us build the community, as it was encouraging people to pick and

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

HOW TO EXECUTE HOST-READ ADS FLAWLESSLY

comedian, writer, podcaster, storyteller

BY LISA ORKIN

We all know trying to sell with our voices is awkward. We either feel like a slimy used-car salesman or a third grader trying to read Shakespeare out loud. There’s only one way to do it: sell with a story. An authentic story, in your own words, that comes from your own life. Selling with a story shifts your mindset from selling to purpose, and we all speak with more authenticity when we speak with a purpose. Your story needs to start with conflict. Conflict is compelling and makes your audience lean in and listen. And the story Remind your audience of needs to be organic to what the conflict, and solve it with you’re selling. another copy point or two: “So, no more crying employees. Two things to note: And no more hiring the wrong a. People don’t speak in employee. La De Da Jobs helped complete sentences. me easily zero in on the right b. Throw punctuation and candidate. They do all the hard sentence structure out the work. And take the fear out of window. hiring. And I don’t have to feel like a horrible person. Let’s begin. Start your ad with the conflict. Your setup needs to be strong and emotional: Have you ever hired the wrong person and then had to let them go? I have. And the person cried, actually sobbed. I handed them a tissue and felt like a horrible person. It was my fault. I hired the wrong person. The hiring process is hard and not my area of expertise. I swore I would never hire another person again. Next, your product or service comes in like a superhero and saves the day: Then I found La De Da Jobs, and it’s changed the way I find new employees. La De Da Jobs has very fancy technology that goes through thousands of people and matches you up with the perfect employee.”

And finally comes the call to action. Write in script form or in bullet points — find what works best for you. Try both; play around with it. Now, let’s talk about performance. You need to rehearse. Actors rehearse, and this is acting. Turn your mic on and record all the steps below. One of your practice reads may be your Academy Award-winning performance. Speed-read your ad three times. Flip your script or turn off your screen, and tell the story as fast as you can from memory. Then read your copy from your script with your story/purpose in mind. Repeat until you’re satisfied. And remember: you’re telling a story. Tell your story with feeling and emotion. Also, it’s helpful to

Tak tell the story to a person. Grab the closest person and tell them the story while recording it. And if you cannot find someone, talk to a picture of a person. In no time at all, this will get easier, and soon you will streamline your process. There are certain sponsors who will ask you to read their copy verbatim. Tell them they will get a much higher return on their investment if you can sell their product through a personal story. If they still disagree, start by taking out all the punctuation in their copy so you can find your own rhythm, and follow the steps above. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. In other words, practice their ad. By recording all of your rehearsals, you can cut together the perfect commercial from a few of the takes. Selling with your voice is difficult. It takes actors many years to perfect this skill. So take the time to practice. Ultimately, the better you get, the more you will sell, and the more you sell, the more people will pay you to podcast. PBJ Lisa Orkin can be reached at lisaorkin@gmail.com. Visit Lisa’s website at www.lisaorkincreative.com.

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THE 20 BEST STORYTELLERS IN PODCASTING In our daily headlines and on our website, over a period of two months, The Podcast Business Journal polled podcasters, podcasting experts, and influencers and asked them to rank the 20 best storytelling podcasters in the industry today. The list they came up with includes podcasters that have the backing of a network as well as independent podcasters. Here are the 20 Best Storytelling Podcasters of 2019 — and their advice on how to tell a great story.

ZAC STUART PONTIER AND MARC SMERLING

CRIMETOWN Gimlet/Cadence13

“Edit and edit and edit,” say Pontier and Smerling. “Our episodes go through many, many iterations. We work hard to try to find the best structure to unfold the story to the audience. We are constantly reordering and rewriting. The other thing we do consistently is look for scenes to put the audience in a specific place and time. We use the interviews and archival, and add sound design and music to try to create the most cinematic and emotionally rich experience for the listener. Don't be afraid to try weird and experimental things. Not all podcasts have to sound the same!”

3 2

SARAH KOENIG

SERIAL

This American Life

MADELEIN BARRON

IN THE DARK APM Reports

Samara Freemark, senior producer of In the Darks, says, “I have two real pieces of advice on this. Number one: listen to, watch, and read other people’s work. There’s a lot of great stuff out there in many different mediums; we take inspiration from all kinds of sources. Number two: spend a lot of time thinking about how you’re going to structure your story. Structure is the hardest thing to nail, and the most important.”

4 5

MATT SHAER

OVER MY DEAD BODY Wondery

ASHLEY FLOWERS

CRIME JUNKIE Audiochuck

“Always remember how you felt when you first found out about each piece of the story you’re going to tell, and try to translate that into your narration,” says Flowers. “If you were surprised, shocked, curious, your audience will be too. More than anything, keep the story easy to follow. Adding filler might give you a longer episode, but it gives your audience a chance to tune out. Quality over quantity, always!”

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

7 6

BRIAN REED

LAURA BEIL

KRISSY CLARK

THE UNCERTAIN HOUR American Public Media

“A radio teacher of mine once said that at its core, a story needs somebody doing something for a reason,” says Clark. “Memorable characters and stakes are essential, of course. But to make people really care about the story you’re telling, it’s helpful to pay attention to the details that you can’t stop thinking about as you put the story together, as tiny or absurd as they may be. Lean in to the moments that captivated you when you first uncovered the story — celebrate them — and listeners will be captivated too. “When friends ask you what you’re working on, how do you tell them the story? Listen to yourself. There’s something about the way we tell stories in conversation that is intuitive. We often know what to start with, know what will hook people. Pay attention to when they laugh, to when their eyes get wide, to what makes them say, ‘Whoa, I never thought about that before.’”

S-TOWN

Serial/This American Life

DR. DEATH Wondery

DAN TABERSKI

RUNNING FROM COPS Pineapple Street Media

Taberski says, “Clean audio is overrated. Don't be afraid to talk during interviews. What you lose in clean audio of your subject, you may gain in shared passion, honest exchange of ideas, and the visceral interest of hearing two people talk about something they’re both drawn to.’

32 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

NEIL STRAUSS

TO LIVE & DIE IN L.A. Tenderfoot/Cadence 13

“Assume no one cares,” Strauss says bluntly. “Start from the premise that no one has any interest in you or your story. And from there, inspire them to care.”

DAN CARLIN

HARDCORE HISTORY

“There is no right way to tell a story. In fact, don’t be afraid to experiment,” Dan Carlin advises. “Try telling the same story several times but in different ways (out of chronological order, for example, or from another viewpoint, perhaps), and see which version comes out best. Experimentation is a pathway to art.”

PAYNE LINDSEY

ATLANTA MONSTER iHeartRadio

“Always listen,” Payne Lindsey says. “Allow for that awkward silence. Oftentimes people will fill that silence with their story. They will fill it with emotion. A lot of the stories I’ve told are very sensitive, so they can be hard topics to revisit. The first step in great storytelling is actually just being a listener. The second step is channeling that raw emotion into your narrative as best as you can.”

REBECCA JARVIS

THE DROPOUT ABC Radio

“Focus as much on ‘the who’ as ‘the what,’ Jarvis says. “Paint a picture for the audience, take them on a journey, and choose a topic you consider endlessly fascinating. If you’re bored, they will be too!”

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

JASON MOON

BEAR BROOK

New Hampshire Public Radio

“Don’t work alone. Bear Brook went through so many group edits, rewrites, and remixes that it makes me tired just to think about them now,” Moon says. “But having the input of trusted colleagues and editors made all the difference in crossing that magical threshold between ‘This is an OK podcast’ to ‘I can’t stop listening to this.’ Surround yourself with people whose work you respect, then create opportunities for their talent to rub off on your project.”

DAVID RIDGEON

SOMEONE KNOWS SOMETHING CBC Podcasts

“The best advice I can provide to anyone hoping to tell a great story is simply to tell it,” Ridgeon says. “Find a story you are passionate about and that you know needs to be told by your voice. You can record well with a setup that costs less than $700. Go out and do it. It’s hard, and that’s what will make it good.”

JAKE BRENNAN

DISGRACELAND iHeartRadio

“My advice would be: have a point of view,” Brennan says. “Have something to say. Pick stories to tell that you are passionate about, and make sure to put a fine point on your chosen subject matter. There are a lot of podcasts out there. What is your niche? Identify your audience and speak to them. Lastly, don’t be afraid to piss people off. If you’re making everyone happy, you’re doing it wrong.”

34 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

17 RACHAEL O’BRIEN AND CHRISTINE BLACKBURN

SCREWED UP STORIES

Westwood One Podcast Network “To become a better storyteller, you simply need to be honest to yourself and the audience.” That’s O’Brien and Blackburn’s advice. “Share a story that you care about, a story that means something to you. And share it with passion. Be vulnerable. A story with vulnerability has more weight to it and makes it relatable to listeners. The audience will be on your side. Try not to exaggerate — you can quickly lose credibility. Your story should have a beginning, middle, and end. There should be an arc to the story, and by the end, we want to know that the storyteller has learned something or is somehow changed. Enjoy telling your story and the audience will love you!”

19 18

COLD

KSL Radio “It’s so important to find the places in the narrative where the characters in your story will relate to those who would hear it,” Rawley says. “If your listeners can’t see themselves in or connect with someone in the story, then it becomes very difficult for your audience to care when things happen to the people in your podcast. Your audience needs to care. It’s also imperative that your audience is moved on an emotional level. It’s not about exaggeration. It’s about starting with a story with inherent emotional impact and staying true to the people whose story you are telling.”

JOSH HALLMARK

OUR AMERICANA

“Dynamic storytelling is storytelling that isn’t afraid to be polarizing or challenge the listener,” says Hallmark. “It’s your job not only to report, but to create a lasting impact on the listener. Tell the story holistically; consider every perspective, reaction, interaction, and impact. The events in the story are the pebble, the story is the ripples — and they spread far and impact almost everything in the pond in one way or another.”

DAVE CAWLEY

DARREN MARLAR

WEIRD DARKNESS

“Don’t just tell the story,” says Marlar. “Live the story. Feel the story. Anyone can narrate words on a page in front of a microphone, but those who can bring life to those words are the ones who get people’s attention. Even if you are telling a story completely in third person, the story can guide you through certain emotions that you shouldn’t ignore. Is the character nervously investigating a sound he heard in the dark? You can slow down your own speaking pace — and even lower your pitch to almost a whisper — to help bring forward the nervousness the character is probably feeling. You might even find yourself tensing your own muscles while voicing it, as if personally preparing for fight-or-flight. “Use that; most voice actors move about when voicing a character even if it’s just for an animated voice role because it makes the vocals more authentic. While narrating the scene, the character is suddenly attacked by an intruder — you can raise the volume a bit, your pace can quicken, and you can speak faster, with more urgency, as the character tries to elude the attacker. If your character is suddenly knocked unconscious, you can abruptly slow your pace to reflect the stopping of action. I’ve actually found myself drenched in sweat at the end of a long story, just from the physical and mental ups and downs it brought me through. So don’t just read the words — feel them with everything you’ve got.”

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podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

HOW THE MOVEMENT ALL BEGAN It started out as a small idea among a few friends. They wanted to gather with others who were trying to make a go at a new and fun medium. At the time, even though podcasting was nearly a decade old, there were no major gatherings being held specifically for podcasters. Sure, at conferences for broadcasters or bloggers, podcasting was getting a little sidebar recognition, but there was nothing out there that podcasters could call their own. Until Podcast Movement came along. Dan Franks and three friends cooked up a plan to raise a little money and start a little movement. And once word got out about what they were doing, they couldn’t stop the train. More money than expected came in. More people than expected attended that first event. And the growth continues. We spoke to the person who has become the face of Podcast Movement, Dan Franks, about how it all began. PBJ: WHAT WAS THE ORIGINAL IDEA BEHIND PODCAST MOVEMENT? HOW AND WHEN DID YOU GET IT OFF THE GROUND?

Franks: It really started as an idea between a bunch of inde-

pendent podcasters — myself, Jared Easley, Gary Leland, and Mitch Todd. The four of us knew each other from the online podcaster community and had attended several different events and conferences together. They always focused more on blogging, web, or TV, and they would have a few sessions for podcasters. There was nothing dedicated to podcasting. A few years in a row we noticed the attendees were more and more podcasters, but there was not a lot of additional programming for podcasters. All of us talking one day thought it would be cool if there was a conference like this for

36 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

podcasters instead of bloggers. That was where the idea came from — something we would love to attend and be a part of. PBJ: WHAT PODCAST WERE YOU DOING AT THE TIME?

Franks: My background is in accounting and finance. I was doing a show called Entrepreneurs Showdown. We would talk about small-business entrepreneurship. In my day job I was working with small-business owners. It was a co-worker of mine, and we were talking shop and interviewing people who were running their own businesses. It was a pretty

Franks: We didn’t have much event planning or production experience — the closest thing I’d done was plan my wedding. At the end, everyone thought it went well and said I should become a wedding planner. I took some of those skills and combined them with the ideas we came up with as a group, and we launched the idea on Kickstarter in early 2014. Through that Kickstarter campaign, we tripled our goal. It was very successful and got people excited about a podcast-only conference. PBJ: DO YOU REMEMBER HOW MUCH YOU RAISED? WHERE WAS THE FIRST ONE HELD?

entry-level business-interview type of show. PBJ: WERE YOU OBSESSED WITH THE DOWNLOADS BACK THEN?

Franks: We were. Back then there was even more focus on the performance metric. Everyone was trying to be in “New & Noteworthy” on the Apple charts. That was back when some of the business podcasters were publicizing their stats and talking about their download

Franks: In Dallas. We had to change the venue two or three times because the registrations were way higher than we expected. The conference was August 2014, and when we launched the Kickstarter campaign, the original goal was $10,000, which we thought would allow us to rent a small community center and bring a few hundred podcasters together. We crossed that 10K our first day. We ended up with over 30K. And anyone who has ever run an event knows that was not nearly enough. We thought it would be plenty. That first year we learned on the fly and were lucky enough to not make too many mistakes that would bring the whole thing down.

numbers. There was a lot of the keeping up with the Joneses. Even though it is still a big thing PBJ: HOW MANY ATTENDnow, I feel it is scaled back some ED THAT FIRST YEAR? as more people from outside Franks: We had almost 600. that business space get into podcasting. PBJ: ALMOST FIVE YEARS PBJ: YOU HAD AN IDEA ABOUT A CONVENTION, BUT PUTTING IT INTO MOTION AND EXECUTING IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT THING. TELL US HOW THAT CAME ABOUT.

LATER, TELL US HOW IT HAS EVOLVED. HAS THIS BECOME YOUR FULL-TIME JOB?

Franks: 2019 will be our sixth year. A year and a half ago it became my full-time job handling all the different

logistical pieces. We have grown from 600 to 3,000 attendees this year. Every year, we’ve doubled attendance. As the podcast community and ecosystem as a whole has evolved, Podcast Movement has mirrored that evolution. We have always kept an open door for anyone involved in podcasting or interested in getting involved. PBJ: WHAT DO YOU WANT ATTENDEES TO WALK AWAY WITH?

Franks: To be excited about podcasting. If they are podcasters now, we want them to come out refreshed with new ideas, new contacts, and new ways to build their show. If they have not started yet, we want them to come out with an actionable plan. If they are on the periphery, like running a network, selling ads, or buying ads, we want them to be more excited about the opportunities podcasting has to offer. PBJ: HOW CHALLENGING IS IT TO KEEP THINGS FRESH WITH SPEAKERS AND PANELISTS. DO YOU WORRY ABOUT BRINGING THE SAME SPEAKERS IN?

Franks: The biggest thing we do from a content perspective is we have an open proposal process. More than half of our 150-160 sessions come from people who submit through an open channel the first two months out of every year. For the first 60 days, anyone can submit sessions they want to lead or panels they want to be a part of. There are ideas, topics, speakers, participants — if we were to curate that all ourselves, we would not have a wellrounded event. Because we have that open process, we bring in new faces, new speakers, new perspectives, and topics we would not have thought of. I have seen events where it is the same speakers

podcastbusinessjournal.com | August/September 2019

from outside sources, but ultimately we see that stable core that everything is built around podcasting as a whole. Most of those people who have taken the industry up to this point are still involved. As long as they are involved, I do not think it will necessarily lose the identity of podcasting as we know it. PBJ: WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR NEW PODCASTERS WHEN THEY SEE THESE VC COMPANIES COMING IN AND STARS LAUNCHING PODCASTS?

every year. There is some efficiency in that because if you have speakers that consistently do a great job, you can count on them to continue. For our event — because podcasting is evolving so fast and there are new people doing great things — the open process is best. PBJ: HOW BIG DO YOU THINK PODCAST MOVEMENT CAN GET IN THE COMING YEARS?

Franks: We try not to put any metrics on it. We think as we grow the event, spread awareness, and give back to podcasters, that the growth will happen. Could we double or triple our marketing budget and get more people on the periphery? Sure, but we feel we’re getting natural growth year after year. That creates more of a community environment as people see familiar faces and grow those relationships, leaving Podcast Movement feeling good about their experience versus

herded cattle. I do think we will continue to grow, but we’re trying to do it in a natural way. PBJ: WHAT IS YOUR IMPRESSION OF THE INDUSTRY, AND WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN SINCE YOUR PODCASTING DAYS?

Franks: It is growing and evolving. It is an interesting place to be. That first year it was a bunch of people who were friends or friends of friends podcasting, who we met through those online channels. There were not too many degrees of separation, even with the strangers that were there the first year. At this time, 3,000 people later, it feels like we hardly know any of them, but what matters is they know each other. They are building those relationships. We think the core base of people are still there, influencing the space for the positive. There is more radio influence coming in over the past year or so and more capital and funding

Franks: It’s easy to be blinded by some of what you see, so your expectations are too high early on if you’re just starting out. It’s easy to be demoralized when you see the celebrities, actors, etc., getting involved, thinking there is not a spot for the independent podcaster. Ultimately, the truth is somewhere in between. It’s not going to be easy for someone just starting out. You will not be an overnight success. There are opportunities for people coming in if they have a great idea and if they are willing to get their hands dirty learning the process and what works and doesn’t work. Everyone who’s been self-made has gotten in the trenches and figured it out. Test different ideas and methods. Be nimble. Change paths, concepts, and strategies. PBJ: IS PODCASTING A HOBBY OR BUSINESS?

Franks: If you want it to be just a hobby, hanging with your friends talking about what you’re interested in, then podcasting can be that. I would not say you have to treat it like a business, but you have to take it seriously by investing time or resources into equipment, learning, and putting pen to paper. We don’t want to discourage people who just want to talk about saltwater fishing. If that’s what gets you

38 August/September 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

excited, then it’s a fun hobby and there’s nothing wrong with that. If you want to make it bigger, you can. PBJ: DO YOU THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH LISTENERS TO GET MORE SERIOUS REVENUE TO COME THIS WAY?

Franks: I do. We see the growth year after year of people listening to podcasting. That is a vague metric, and you can always use more. The more listeners you have, the more opportunities there will be. The facts are that listenership is going up, people are adapting to the medium, and more outlets like Spotify and Pandora are making it easier for listeners. The trajectory is in the right direction. There are always going to podcasts that wished they had more listeners or great shows that just cannot get that traction. Are there enough? Maybe not for every show to have hundreds of thousands of downloads, but with the trajectory pointed up we are going in the right direction. PBJ: DO YOU REALLY REALIZE WHAT YOU HAVE CREATED WITH THE PODCAST MOVEMENT?

Franks: It’s really cool and accidental. Any one of us would be lying if we thought it would turn into anything more than a get-together at a community center in Dallas, and if we were lucky we would do it a second time. None of this was planned, but we think our passion for podcasting and helping podcasters come together has naturally evolved. We do not take this for granted. We know people could go elsewhere and sponsors could spend money elsewhere, but we’re grateful for all of those people who come together to make Podcast Movement what it is and hope it continues to grow. PBJ

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