Podcast Business Journal Oct/Nov 2019 by Podcast Business Journal

VOL. 1, NO. 2

OCT-NOV 2019

WWW.PODCASTBUSINESSJOURNAL.COM

YOU LAUNCHED!

NOW WHAT?

HELP YOUR LISTENERS

NAVIGATE THE PODCAST MAZE

THE ARGUMENT

FOR AN ASSOCIATION

HOW THEY BUILT A MASSIVE FOLLOWING She Podcasts Hosts Elsie Escobar and Jessica Kupferman

DO YOU KNOW YOUR RIGHTS? THE PLAGIARISM CONTROVERSY AND MANAGING A CRISIS 5 REASONS A BUSINESS SHOULD LAUNCH A PODCAST

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CONTENTS

Do You Know Your Rights? A Q&A With Jamie Lieberman

You Must Be Fearless By Dave Jackson

5 Reasons A Business Should Podcast To Market By Evo Terra

EDITORIAL DIRECTOR Ed Ryan edryantheeditor@gmail.com MANAGING EDITOR Brida Connolly bconnolly@streamlinepublishing.com COPY EDITOR Adrian Zupp

DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS April McLynn amclynn@streamlinepublishing.com NATIONAL ACCOUNT MANAGER Tracey Homberg 248-330-4595 tracey4radioink@gmail.com

11 When Podcasters Need Crisis Management Support By Tim O’Brien

NATIONAL MARKETING EXECUTIVE Carl Marcucci 703-670-2860 cmarcucci66@gmail.com

ADVERTISING/MARKETING CONSULTANT George Wymer 937-609-6778 gwymer@streamlinepublishing.com

12 COVER STORY How They Built Their Loyal Tribe: She Podcasts Hosts Elsie Escobar & Jessica Kupferman By Editorial Director Ed Ryan

CHAIRMAN/CEO B. Eric Rhoads EXEC. VP/COO Tom Elmo

bericrhoads@gmail.com Twitter: @ericrhoads Facebook: ericrhoads telmo@streamlinepublishing.com

DIRECTOR OF FINANCE Laura Iserman liserman@streamlinepublishing.com

20 This Is How Stuff Works At iHeartMedia A Q&A With Conal Byrne

CONTROLLER Jaime Osetek

jaime@streamlinepublishing.com

CIRCULATION COORDINATOR Sue Henry shenry@streamlinepublishing.com PODCAST BUSINESS JOURNAL EDITORIAL BOARD Mark Asquith, CEO, Rebel Base Media Todd Cochrane, CEO, Blubrry Traci Long DeForge, Founder, Produce Your Podcast Danielle Desir, Co-Founder, WOC Podcasters Elsie Escobar, Podcasting Strategist Dan Franks, Co-Founder/Organizer, Podcast Movement Rob Greenlee, VP/Contents & Partnerships, Libsyn Dave Jackson, CEO, School of Podcasting John Dennis, Chief Experience Officer, Podfest Multimedia Expo Rob Walch, VP of Podcaster Relations, Libsyn

25 Sick of Corporate Radio, She Launched Her Own Podcast Network A Q&A With Allyson Marino 26 Podcasting As A Marketing Tool A Q&A With Ginger Shimp 30 Podcast Niches: Business Applications By Johnny Peterson

azstreamlinepub@gmail.com

ART DIRECTOR Kenneth Whitney kenneth.whitney@gmail.com PRODUCTION DIRECTOR Nicolynn Kuper nkuper@streamlinepublishing.com

So You Started A Podcast ... Now What? By Matty Staudt

24 7 Questions With Holly Frey

EVP/PUBLISHER Deborah Parenti dparenti@streamlinepublishing.com

FEEDBACK: Send e-mail to edryantheeditor@gmail.com. Submission of a letter constitutes permission to publish that letter in any form or medium. Letters may be edited for space or other reasons. You can also leave comments on all of our online stories at www. PodcastBusinessJournal.com.

4 October/November 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

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STREAMLINE PUBLISHING ONE OF AMERICA’S FASTEST-GROWING PRIVATE COMPANIES

DO YOU KNOW YOUR RIGHTS? The podcasting space is growing, and with that growth comes closer scrutiny. Podcasters can no longer hide in the weeds hoping certain people don’t see what they’re doing or hear what they’re saying. There are laws, and there are rules. And when a podcaster violates those laws and rules, he or she will get called out on it. Jamie Lieberman is the founder of HashtagLegal.com. She’s been a practicing attorney for 15 years, frequently speaks at podcasting conferences, and hosts a podcast called The Fear Less Business Podcast. PBJ: DO PODCASTERS NEED AN ATTORNEY?

Lieberman: It depends. There are issues where it is beneficial — making sure the name you’re choosing is not one protected by a trademark registration, or if you have questions about the use of music. I don’t think you need an attorney on retainer, but if you have one that knows what podcasting is and what the legal issues related to podcasts are, that’s good. If something does pop up, it’s good to have someone you know can help. PBJ: YOU’VE NOW DONE 80 EPISODES OF YOUR PODCAST. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO START A PODCAST, AND WHAT KEEPS YOU MOTIVATED?

Lieberman: I love to create content. I enjoy interviewing people. I have a lot of information that is easier to consume when I’m talking about it versus writing about it. My podcast is the Fear Less Business Podcast, and we talk about things people are afraid of in their business but should not be. Many of those topics can be dry, so they come across easier to absorb when I’m talking about them. Podcasting was a natural fit. I do it because I really enjoy

6 October/November 2019 | Podcast Business Journal Magazine

talking about those topics — taking the fear out of the legal, accounting, or marketing aspects that people might be avoiding in their business. It’s easy to keep going because it allows me to meet a lot of new people. I interview great guests. It’s a different angle to my everyday legal business because it allows me to create. PBJ: WHEN YOU SPOKE AT PODCAST MOVEMENT 2019, WHAT DID YOU TELL PODCASTERS?

Lieberman: This was my second year speaking at Podcast Movement. The first year I gave a general legal-issues talk. There were intellectual property questions as well as contractual sponsorships, advertising contracts, the question of using music, fair use in copyright. This year I spoke about negotiation. People are thinking more and more about monetization of their podcasts, so they wanted to have a good understanding of how to go into a negotiation with a potential brand partner or sponsor. I got great questions about going through that process.

more money when they have long-term relationships with one or two brands versus trying to sell an ad for every single podcast. Depending on what you’re talking about, there could be a very specific fit for you in terms of a brand or company that would make sense for your audience. You have to know who your audience is.

PBJ: SHOULD ALL PODCASTERS LOOK AT THIS AS A BUSINESS?

PBJ: WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON WHERE MUSIC ON PODCASTS IS GOING?

Lieberman: It’s personal to each podcaster. If you want to, great, but if you don’t, that’s OK, too. There is no “one size fits all.” You have to look at what your goal is. If it’s just the joy of doing it, then that’s awesome.

Lieberman: It’s not something I would ever recommend, walking that line. You need to know you have the rights and paid for the rights to use the music. When you do get caught, and nine out of 10 times people do, those fines and licensing fees can be steep.

PBJ: WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR PODCASTERS WHO WANT TO MAKE IT MORE THAN A HOBBY?

Lieberman: When you start a podcast, you have to think about why. If you’re doing it with the intent of driving awareness toward a business or have a love of what it is you’re talking about, you have to set those expectations at the start. I have a lot of clients who podcast, not necessarily because they are looking for sponsorships, but they want to speak about a topic relevant to a business they run. It’s a great way to raise awareness, meet potential clients, or drive people to a product. I have others who start podcasting as a hobby and then go the sponsorship or advertising route. If you’re going the advertising route, I’m finding those clients who are successful can command

PBJ: IS PUTTING CREDIT IN THE SHOW NOTES ENOUGH?

People say it is flattery, but it’s not at all. You are who you are and if you do your own thing, no matter how much someone tries to copy, they can’t be you. They will always be one step behind. Just keep putting out great content — the people who copy will not replace you. PBJ: IN 2019 WE’VE SEEN SOME PODCASTERS CALLED OUT FOR NOT GIVING PROPER CREDIT. WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT’S HEADED, AND WHAT SHOULD PODCASTERS BE AWARE OF WHEN THEY ARE TELLING A STORY USING RESEARCH THEY DO NOT OWN?

Lieberman: Just because you give someone credit does not mean you’re not infringing on their intellectual property rights. I’m always of the mindset to ask for permission. You don’t need this incredibly long document. If you see something you want to use, shoot them an e-mail and say, “I plan to use this for this purpose. Do I have your permission?” That is the safest way. For some of the simple uses, if you want to give them credit, that works. PBJ: WHAT ARE THE TOP LEGAL ISSUES FACING PODCASTERS?

Lieberman: People not checking their podcast name to see if they can use it, that it isn’t already protected. You do not want to launch with a name that infringes on someone else’s registered or unregistered trademark. I have many clients Lieberman: It’s important who had to change their podcast to respect others’ work. It’s names because they did not do important that you’re not utilizing their due diligence on the front PBJ: I WAS LISTENING TO other people’s content in any end. ONE OF YOUR SHOWS way. We all have unique and On the flip side of that, if you WHERE SOMETHING HAD interesting ideas to put forward. do have a name and somebody HAPPENED AND YOU FELT I don’t consume much content launches with a potentially LIKE SOMEONE WAS RIPfor that reason. I don’t want to be infringing name or content, you PING YOU OFF. HOW DO influenced by others, particularly can’t sit on your rights. You have YOU DEAL WITH THAT? by others who are in the same to tell them to cease and desist. Lieberman: There are space. The content I consume is The longer you wait, the less two aspects when you have outside the realm of what I do. rights you get with intellectual a copycat. The first is the property. It’s important to stay emotional aspect — you’re mad. PBJ: IF SOMEBODY DOES on top of that. You put your heart and soul into A PODCAST AND USES Also, I’ve appeared on many something, and someone comes RESEARCH FROM OTHpodcasts, and I can’t think of one along and tries to make a not-so- ERS, IS THAT A VIOLATION where I signed a likeness and amazing copy of it. You have to OF THE LAW? biographical release. I never get deal with it, because it will fester Lieberman: It’s a hard them. People who may want to if you ignore it. question to answer because it’s repurpose content — like make The second is if someone case by case. You have to look at a bunch of podcasts and then infringed on your intellectual what was originally created, then write a book — you can’t do property. Unfortunately, what was used and how it was that without getting permission. copycats walk a fine line — used. If you do have a question, You need to get permission to frequently they change things ask a lawyer. I get these questions use someone’s likeness and a just enough so there isn’t an a lot. Be aware and make sure biographical release. That’s an infringement and so there is not you get an opinion if you’re not important one that almost all a ton you can do. It’s frustrating. clear on your rights. podcasters ignore. PBJ

podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

YOU MUST BE FEARLESS

hall of fame podcaster and consultant

BY DAVE JACKSON

I’ve attended many conferences this year, and I run into people who have content. They have great content, but just can’t pull the trigger on starting a podcast. Here are some of the reasons they say are stopping them: I DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MIXING AUDIO.

This seems like a legit concern, until I’m in the car with you and “your jam” comes on, and up goes the volume as you begin to sing along. Then the phone rings. Oh, no! What do you do? You take your hand and turn the volume down low enough so you can hear your phone. You’ve done that, right? Well, guess what? You know how to mix audio. I MIGHT BE JUDGED BY OTHERS.

You’re worried about the world judging your content. The first thing I have to let you know is when you first start out, you won’t have many listeners (so those “tons of people” you think are listening will come later). Have you been to a Walmart or Target store recently (or any place that has a checkout line)? Then I have news for you. You’ve been judged. We are all judged every day. Maybe it’s because if you are judged for wearing your pajamas into Walmart, it’s not captured for the world to see over and over. I get that. Here is the solution. Edit your audio so you don’t sound stupid. It’s not live radio, and you can make sure that everything you release paints you in a positive light. As for those people who are going to judge you? We are always so worried about negative reviews — how about if all the reviews are positive? We are always wondering what happens if things go wrong. What if things go right?

I HATE THE SOUND OF MY VOICE.

This is partly due to science. When you talk, you hear your voice through your ears and your skull. The technical term is “bone conduction.” Your voice sounds fine, and then when you listen back, it sounds thin. Here’s why: when you listen back to your voice coming through speakers or headphones, you are no longer listening through your skull. Your voice doesn’t sound bad. It sounds different. How do I know it’s not bad? Has anyone in a regular, nonconfrontational conversation on the phone hung up because they couldn’t stand your voice? I didn’t think so. I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW TO UPLOAD A MEDIA FILE TO MY MEDIA HOST.

If you have ever uploaded a photo to Facebook, or attached a file to an e-mail, you have the skills to upload a media file to your media host. I’M MORE COMFORTABLE BEING A BLOGGER.

This one always puzzles me. As a writer, you are trying to communicate with your audience. When you add a tone of voice to your content, you boost the communication. How do you do a dramatic pause in writing? You have the content. Boost the effectiveness of that content by adding a tone of voice, mood music, and more. Even the fastest typist cannot out-type someone talking. If this were a podcast, it would’ve been done a while ago, as I talk much faster than I type. I CAN’T AFFORD IT.

You can start a podcast for prices ranging from $70-$300 in most cases. If you find yourself starring at the vending machine trying to decide between the Mountain

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Dew or using that money for gas in your car, you have larger issues, and maybe now is not the time to start a podcast. One the other side, if you take a look at the costs of golfing, bowling, cycling — the cost of starting those hobbies is about the same, if not more, than starting a podcast. Realize that many of the costs of starting a podcast are one-time purchases (the microphones, etc.). Once the podcast is launched, it will cost around $40 a month, depending on how often you publish and how long your episodes. I DON’T HAVE SPACE.

There are many podcasters who have started by dragging a microphone and a laptop into their closet. Some people who live in great climates bring a portable recorder into their car (which has great sound absorption). CONCLUSION

In the end, those who truly want to get their message out there, those who truly want to help and serve their audience, will find a way to launch their podcast. Hundreds of people launch new podcasts every day. You can always find an excuse to not do something you’re nervous about. Those with passion will always find a way. PBJ Dave Jackson is a Hall of Fame podcaster and consultant. He started the School of Podcasting in 2005 and potentially has helped more podcasters with their podcast than any other human on the planet. Find him at www.schoolofpodcasting.com.

I didn’t realize this, but 80% of employees have non-desk jobs. While some of us would relish not being shackled to a desk, it also means no company-issued computer, and maybe not even a company-based e-mail. But podcasts go straight to their phones. 2. No, your employees can’t multitask. Psychologists

and neuroscientists agree that multitasking is really just switching from one task to another. So every time you are asking your employees to read the company newsletter or watch the latest health benefits video, that’s literally the only thing their brain will let them do at that time. Our brains force our eyes to focus on one thing. But our brains give most of us a hall pass. 3. Listening to podcasts is a “found time” activity that people want to do. There

are all sorts of tasks we do, and not just at work, where our brains can happily (and hungrily) fit in listening to a podcast episode. Things like commuting, working out, and much more. Oh, and if you think your people won’t want to listen to your show when they’re not at work ... maybe you should work on making better content.

Fighting against social media algorithms is just getting harder, so company-sent messages are often never seen. Our direct/ instant messages are fractured across a dozen different apps and services. And our in-boxes are overflowing and stress-inducing. Communicating via a podcast is much less cluttered.

BY EVO TERRA

1. Podcasts are perfect for today’s mobile workforce.

4. Podcasting is a dedicated communication channel.

author of Podcasting for Dummies

Making audio content is straightforward. It’s really no different than any other digital asset. Create. Edit. Publish. Hundreds of thousands of amateurs create and upload audio files for their audiences every single day. I find the question of why businesses should lead with an audio-only communication channel — a podcast — for their internal users more interesting. Here are five reasons for you to ponder with your head of HR:

5 REASONS A BUSINESS SHOULD PODCAST TO MARKET

When Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, the “killer app” he envisioned was people calling down to the symphony to listen in live from the comfort of their living rooms. (So, a 19th-century version of live concert streaming?) Thomas Edison made the phonograph so businessmen (the 19th century was very un-woke) could capture dictation without the need of a stenographer. He also envisioned “talking books” for the blind, as well as a medium for training people to become better at speaking. But the real world tends to change things. Edison’s phonograph and all of its subsequent forms would pivot away from voice to become synonymous with music. And it would take over 100 years before music listening would happen on Bell’s telephone ... unless you were stuck on hold. Fast-forward to the present, and those two inventions have combined into a single device: the smartphone. You have one. I have one. Heck, I have three. Yet business communicators often forget the ubiquity of these rectangles of glass and silicon. Marketers know the value of creating content for smartphones. But internal communications teams often don’t give them a second thought, beyond hoping the company newsletter looks OK on the smaller screen. For the rare times when comms teams do set out to create content for smartphones, they tend to go overboard, planning immersive and amazing (and expensive) experiences. Which is why it’s so rare for these grandiose ideas to be greenlit. But that’s overcomplicating things. Today’s smartphones are perfect for audio-only content. And, as research proves, people of all ages are consuming more audio content than ever before!

5. Video views are a lie. It

doesn’t take much digging into the analytics of your YouTube or Facebook videos to realize that 90% of those so-called “views” stopped watching within the first minute of your content. Worse, most of those were autoplays with the audio muted. So really, almost no one watched or heard what you had to say. But with podcasting, most listeners consume at least 85% of the content! No, your company-based and employee-focused podcast probably won’t rocket to the top of the charts any time soon. But your employees will appreciate the time you give back to them. And it beats putting a pinball machine in the break room. PBJ Evo Terra is the author of Podcasting for Dummies, the CEO of Simpler Media Productions, and the host of Podcast Pontifications, a daily short-form podcast that wants to make podcasting better. He can be reached at thisisevo@gmail.com.

podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

SO YOU STARTED A PODCAST ... NOW WHAT?

former vp of podcast programming, iHeartRadio

BY MATTY STAUDT

It seems like everyone, including my dog, is starting a podcast these days. It’s a lot of fun, and if you do it right, you can create something that resonates with listeners and hopefully makes you some money. Unfortunately, the odds are you will not make money, and you will likely quit when you realize how difficult it is to come up with great content every week. If you saw that last line and thought, “Well, that’s not me!” then keep reading. Here are some tips for growing your podcast and producing a sustainable show. SET GOALS

Why are you doing a podcast? Is it for fun? Is it to tell your story or bring light to issues close to you? Is it to make money and become famous? No matter what your answer is, you need to set that goal and stick to it.

LEARN MONETIZATION

Do you know the terms CPM and dynamic insertion? If you really want to get serious about podcasting, you must understand how podcasts make money and set goals for your

downloads that will meet the needs of what advertisers are looking for. There is a lot more money being put into podcasting than ever before, but it is not easy to make money. Do your homework and learn about how monetization works. PICK A GREAT RSS FEED PROVIDER

There are a lot of great RSS feed providers out there, and each brings something to the table that you might need. Make sure they offer great stats and are IAB-compliant. Also, ask other podcasters what they use and why. Once you get that feed up and running, put your podcast everywhere podcasts are hosted. Don’t rely on just iTunes and Spotify. Different platforms are preferred by different audiences. Hit them all. I always say if you bake bread, you don’t just put it in one grocery store. You put it everywhere people buy bread.

something you will learn by watching a YouTube video. It’s something that takes lots of practice. If you don’t have the time to put into this (and it is time-consuming), think about spending some money to hire a producer who can take that off your plate. Nothing is worse than a compelling podcast with horrible audio. WRITE GREAT TITLES AND DESCRIPTIONS

Searching is the top way people find podcasts. If you don’t write SEO-friendly titles and descriptions, you are making it too difficult for people to find you. Don’t put episode numbers and dates in titles. Make sure your most important keywords or guests are first and that you write good, full descriptions that Google will like. HAVE FUN

At the end of the day, if you are not having fun, your listeners will hear it. Make sure MASTER SOCIAL MEDIA you record when you are in MARKETING the right state of mind and that I just saw a post in a forum for whatever you are doing brings podcasters where someone asked you joy. If your podcast is more if they had to be on social media serious, make sure your listento get listeners. My answer to ers can hear how engaged you that is: YES! Social media is are with the subject matter. My still the best show in town for first PD told me listeners could finding an audience. You need hear me smile when I talked. to understand the different Make sure you are doing that platforms and the audiences for your listeners. PBJ each of them reaches best. Then you will need to put together a Matty Staudt is the president plan for promoting daily — not and founder of Jam Street just on the day you publish. Media and can be reached at Also, find groups on places like matty@jamstreetmedia.com. Reddit for people interested in your topic and interact. Social media is nothing if you don’t interact with people daily. EDIT, EDIT, EDIT…

Great podcasts sound effortless and smooth because someone took the time to edit and mix the sound. This is not

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BY TIM O’BRIEN

or someone else? And what are your key messages? These are just some of the questions we may ask at this phase of the planning process. Fifth, get ready to go public. This means developing your initial media statement and a list of questions you may be asked, along with the proper responses. Get legal input on these materials before they are finalized. And from there, be prepared to respond as new developments unfold, using the same process as above. Whatever the case, don’t make light of the situation. Don’t ignore it and assume it will go away on its own. And above all, once you’re in the middle of a crisis, don’t assume you can handle this on your own. Just as with any other period of turbulence in life and in business, your chances of success are much better when you have a good team around you. PBJ

creator of the Shaping Opinion Podcast

First, get on top of the facts. This may sound obvious, but if someone’s accusing you of something, and they’re doing it in great detail, you need to know if their facts are accurate or not. Don’t be too quick to dismiss any allegation. This means you must quickly and thoroughly do your own investigation to verify whether their claims are valid or not. Next, once you’ve done your fact-finding, be honest with yourself. Are some of their claims valid? Are some of their claims invalid? Break it all down on paper and work through it quickly but responsibly. Prepare to acknowledge certain problems, while at the same times citing any allegations that are baseless, and do so with specificity. Once you go public with any statements, they have to be able to withstand public, media, and legal scrutiny. Third, work with legal counsel. Make sure that everything you are doing is done on the counsel of good legal advisers. Fourth, make strategic decisions on where and how you will communicate. Will it be a written statement distributed via e-mail? Will it be a post on a website, blog, or social media site? Who will be the face and the voice for your podcast? Will it be one of the hosts or a lawyer

WHEN PODCASTERS NEED CRISIS MANAGEMENT SUPPORT

Podcasters have been in the news of late, and that’s not always a good thing. The stories I’m referring to are centered on accusations of plagiarism — or lifting content from other sources without attribution. The story that has garnered the most attention has been the dispute between the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette (ADG) and the Crime Junkie podcast, where the newspaper sent a cease-and-desist letter calling on the podcast to “fully and unequivocally credit the ADG’s copyright and Cathy Frye’s reporting at the beginning of the podcast.” Other podcasts have been criticized on social media by journalists claiming that some of their writings were pulled verbatim by podcasters without crediting the source. For about two years now, I’ve been in the podcasting business, so I wouldn’t tell some accomplished podcasters how to run their podcasts in a creative sense. But I’ve been in the crisis management business for much, much longer, and pretty deeply. With that in mind, I would counsel them to do certain things if they’re not already doing them. These are things any podcaster should consider if the possibility of a crisis is real.

Tim O’Brien is the creator of the Shaping Opinion Podcast, and the founder of O’Brien Communications, a corporate communications consulting firm based in Pittsburgh. He can be reached at 412.854.8845 or timobrien@timobrienpr.com.

podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

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BY ED RYAN

Editorial Director

HOW THEY BUILT THEIR LOYAL TRIBE

SHE PODCASTSâ&#x20AC;&#x2122; ELSIE ESCOBAR AND JESSICA KUPFERMAN podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

Elsie Escobar and Jessica Kufferman are two unstoppable forces in the podcasting world. They know the industry inside out, they are veteran podcasters, and they are highly respected. And they really want to help women succeed in podcasting. They’ve been co-hosting a podcast called She Podcasts since 2014, have a huge Facebook group following, and they have nearly 200 “Super Squad” followers who pay monthly for extra content. They were also both nervous wrecks just a little while ago, worried that the She Podcasts Live conference they launched would bomb. You can certainly understand why they felt that way. It has to be frightening when you come up with what you believe is a great idea, pull the trigger, then pray people will respond. But as many in the podcasting space know by now, they needn’t have worried. The response to the first ever She Podcasts Live conference has been all positive. Hundreds of registrations had been sold as we went to print. And it’s all because of the faithful tribe Elsie and Jessica have built, all based on respect, trust, and admiration. PBJ: HOW DID YOU TWO MEET, AND WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO DO A PODCAST?

Elsie: We met in an online business school — we both took a course called Rich, Happy, and Hot. There was a 2011

Facebook group comprised of people who had taken the course and wanted to stay in an intimate group. We got to know each other there. Three years later, Jess had a group called Women in Podcasting, and she invited me to be a part of it. I was excited and invited all my friends, and the group grew fast. In the group people were asking why there wasn’t a podcast about podcasting from the woman’s point of view. I nudged Jess and said, “We need to start a podcast because if we don’t, someone else will.” That is why we did it. PBJ: WHAT WAS THE ORIGINAL GOAL?

started, first it was about not having to ask technical questions in groups full of dudes trying to sell you something, talk over you, tell you what you’re doing wrong, or give you advice not conducive to having a life, work, and children. They didn’t understand we don’t have time or money to hire three virtual assistants or post eight times a day. We didn’t think their advice was realistic. We met at a conference called the New Media Expo — the first time I was exposed to other podcasters like Elsie. When we met, we felt more supportive and less competitive. That was the goal. Elsie had wanted to start the podcast for a while.

Jessica: When the group

“Jess and Elsie are humble visionaries. Five years ago they started She Podcasts, a podcast to empower women to podcast. They lead by example and show us that more is possible. It is no wonder they have an amazingly inspired and devoted community of women who look out for one another. She Podcasts Live is going to be a huge success!” — Allyson Marino Founder, Lipstick & Vinyl allyson@lipstickandvinyl.com

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Elsie: Yes, I had the name She Podcasts in my head for a while. I wanted to start a show that was focused on women in podcasting. I never could get it started because I have a million things happening. We didn’t necessarily have a goal with what we wanted to do with the show, other than talk about things we felt weren’t being covered in the space. Also, to connect with each other specifically. At that time, Jess was newly pregnant and I had a toddler and a 4-year-old. No one was talking about how hard it was to podcast with little people running around. You can’t go into a fancy studio, and you won’t have pristine audio. The first few years it was an outlet for my well-being as a human, to feel connected to someone else who was going through something similar. Jessica: In the back of my head I thought we would someday be able to travel and do the show live in different cities. I wanted an excuse to travel a bit. Like a traveling circus.

stopped doing automatic stuff. We market the show solely on social media. It has not grown nearly as much as the Facebook group has. Elsie: We have not really focused on it. You can’t do all the things you’d like to. You either manage a Facebook group, launch a conference, or go all crazy marketing yourself. Right now we’re seeing the biggest growth. We started in 2014. Our audience is women podcasters, and we have grown to about 1,000 downloads per episode per month. For a niche show like ours, that’s very good.

PBJ: WHAT WAS THE EARLY RESPONSE FROM THE LISTENERS?

Elsie: There was a lot of conversation in the group. People were e-mailing. We didn’t get much feedback on our show. People tended to respond to us when we got real on the show. When we were talking about our lives, difficult situations, personal situations. They ranged from being a mom to making business decisions. That’s when people engaged. Jessica: The most feedback we got when we started was from men saying, “Don’t tell anyone, but I am a listener.” They were telling us what they thought about our view on podcasting. When I came back from maternity leave, I got annoyed with my husband because I asked him to bounce the baby while I went to the restroom. Meanwhile, I can hear the baby screaming, and when I looked out at him he said, “My knees hurt.” I said, “Nobody asked you if your knees hurt.” I went through this whole thing on the show: “When I tell you to bounce, you bounce, bitch.” For at least a year people

told me that was hilarious. Elsie: One of our listeners made a rap mix from “Bounce It” and put it out. We get people who love those little bits more than insights into podcasting. Jessica: We get 50% of people who don’t want to hear about the personal life stuff and 50% that do. PBJ: HOW ARE YOU MARKETING THE SHOW?

Jessica: I have a system. Elsie would do the show notes and send them to me. I would send an e-mail to my list and schedule tweets about the show. We do a Facebook page post, and later on Instagram. Once a tweet went out during an emergency and it made us appear tone-deaf to it, so we

Jessica: There have been months where we have not looked at the downloads, but we still get requests for interviews, and advertising. They can see the group is large. There was a time we ended up doing 12 ads a show, and Elsie said, “We’re never doing this again.” We’ve done bundling because our community is valuable, even if the show is not the biggest asset today. Elsie: We have always made good enough money to keep us going based on just us. We have always been able to get someone to sponsor and buy our courses or pay us to speak at seminars. Our audience size has not always mattered. PBJ: HOW ARE YOU MAKING MONEY ON THE PODCAST?

Jessica: Patreon is our largest

income. We have periods of six months to a year where one or two paying advertisers keep swapping out. Patreon is our most consistent, so we don’t take as many advertisers. We have also tried to sell online coaching, courses, online VIP events, workshops, but none of that is consistent. Elsie and I have always worked on other projects, unlike some podcasters who are putting all their eggs in one basket. I know some business coaches would say we could be doing so much more, but Elsie works for Libsyn and it would feel uneven if I made it my full-time job. I wouldn’t want to make it my full-time job and split it with someone whose full-time job was doing something else. I did not want that to affect our relationship — it’s a big part of how and why we sell. I had partners in the past where if we weren’t doing even amounts of dedication to the project, things got resentful. I would like to make She Podcasts or the projects I do on behalf of She Podcasts a full-time job. Elsie: As your readers will know, it’s hard to make a substantial living off of a podcast. There have been many times when I have taken other consulting positions, other strategic income choices to get me cash. I make a decent living from consulting. It’s more lucrative than selling advertising for the show. You have to make choices based on your goals. This year

“She Podcasts Live is not an event, but a community of amazing women who have been helping one another since the founding of their Facebook group over five years ago. It’s been amazing to watch Jessica and Elsie bring this event to life, allowing their community members to have a physical home!” — Chris Krimitsos Chief Creative Officer www.PodfestExpo.com

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for She Podcasts I have put a lot more time in growing our Patreon, and that’s working. We’re getting a strong following. We have an exchange of ideas and value we’re giving our audience. PBJ: I’M NOT TOO SURE THE AVERAGE PODCASTER KNOWS ABOUT PATREON — DO YOU HAVE TO WORK THAT PAGE?

Elsie: You do. Given the fact that the majority of people in the She Podcasts Super Squad are primarily She Podcasts listeners, we have a 17% conversion to Patreon, which is amazing given our audience size. In terms of the group, we are at about 2% conversion. When I do research, a 3%-5% conversion rate is really good. PBJ: HOW HARD ARE YOU PUSHING THE PAGE OUT? ARE YOU GIVING THEM EXTRA CONTENT ON PATREON?

“Elsie has shown me what working directly from the heart looks like. Everything she stands for, everything she works for, everything she creates is all from her heart and, I believe, for the greater good of herself and her community. Because of the energy she brought to She Podcasts and the She Podcasts Facebook group, there’s already a sense of community among She Podcasts Live attendees, even before we check in. “Jessica is, without a doubt, a powerhouse. Jessica has been to so many conferences, and she made sure to talk to She Podcasts listeners about what they really wanted from a conference. She is going above and beyond to bring that experience to everyone attending. “What’s funny is, you talk to Jessica and it sounds like one big giant party, but then when she talks logistics, you realize all the intricacies of her mind. She can go from talking about getting someone to come in and do fairy hair one minute, then the next minute, she’s talking about booth space and vendor capacity. For her, it’s a seamless transition, and that’s the sort of all-encompassing atmosphere that I love about podcasting conferences. “I don’t know if Elsie and Jessica have been able to take a step back from all they’re doing to look at all the women and podcasts they’ve inspired. When they are standing on stage at their own event in front of hundreds of people who love everything She Podcasts stands for, I think they may get just a taste of the impact they are having on the world. It’s an event I can’t wait to bring my daughter to one day when she’s older to show her what kind of amazing people are in the world who are creating from their heart and owning their strengths.”

Elsie: We mention it on every episode. The extra value is we do a weekly Q&A with Jess and I — we have a one hour or less Q&A. We do it on Tuesdays. We answer the questions the Super Squad has asked. We’ve been taking the audio from that Q&A and creating a bonus episode we release on our She Podcasts feed. People can hear us answer them. We generally convert two to five people, based on how — Emily Prokop much we make sure they listen E Podcast Productions to the episode. Our own Super emily@epodcastproductions.com Squad is talking about how great EPodcastProductions.com it is to be in the Super Squad inside the She Podcasts page. up a lot of opportunities — out of control. I think the better certainly for us, as a women’s the product being made, the PBJ: THE SHOW HAS BEEN podcasting support group. Most more it will deter people from AROUND SINCE 2014, BUT of the people we know who are making terrible products. IN THE LAST FEW YEARS in the industry are either going THE INDUSTRY HAS GONE to have severe growing pains Elsie: In terms of the growth, CRAZY. WHAT IS YOUR or fold. I have noticed now it’s not the OPINION ON HOW THINGS There are a lot of companies dreamer entrepreneurs who HAVE CHANGED? left on the side of the road thought doing a podcast would Jessica: I feel it has opened because the car was speeding make a lot of money, but big

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companies that are investing a lot of money in an industry they don’t know. It’s painful to see the amount of money being invested when there is no magic sauce for making a hit. My hope is to be able to inspire other people to have the trajectory like Jess and I have had. You start something, it has

been all these years, you tested stuff and made money to keep you going, gotten smarter, get more clout and have experiences, and then build to something incredible. It has taken time. I ask people when they start in podcasting, “What is your one- to five-year business plan? Are you willing to invest five years, and what is your goal?” That’s the outlook you need to have. It doesn’t matter how much Apple Podcast supports you or how many shows you put out, it is not going to happen if don’t continue to do it. PBJ: TALK ABOUT WHY YOU DECIDED TO LAUNCH THE SHE PODCASTS LIVE CONFERENCE.

Jessica: It was many conversations over the last four years. There were disagreements, not unpleasant, but we could not come to agreement, so it would be dropped and then picked up again later. This happened for three or four years. I had been traveling with Chris Krimitsos [CEO of Podfest], and he was telling me about doing a conference, that it was easy. I came to Elsie creatively stunted, saying I want to do this.

The whole idea makes her stressed out — not who’s going to speak but the part about mics, AV, coffee, chairs, etc. I said to her, “I can handle it and I’m OK if you don’t want to use She Podcasts or our logo, but I would like to.” She said OK. I said, “You don’t have to do anything other than show up and be the talent. You don’t have to plan, market, nothing.” She agreed. I slowly ingratiated her into what I was planning. She definitely helped with the Kickstarter, which was after I showed her some ideas. I wanted it to be something she was excited about, not dreading. Elsie: I am the one who was stopping it the entire time.

It goes against my nature. Everything about conferences is against my desire. I did not want birthday parties as a child. I am incredibly introverted. I don’t plan things. The idea of planning something like that was anxiety-inducing to the degree that I could not do it. I knew this was what Jess needed. I didn’t have a problem with her using what we’ve built together and I would be supportive. I’m getting more excited and 100% behind it. The minutiae of it really is overwhelming to me. It’s like one of the things you’re told when you have a home birth — you need to be surrounded by people who are 100% in. If you have someone stressed out at your house, they will mess it up. I did not want to be that person in Jess’ house. I would rather step away and let her go. It had nothing to do with how great she is and her capabilities. It’s all my own bullshit. I stepped away so she could take over, and it is incredible. Jessica: It does not freak me out to do the planning. It might be cultural. At age 12, I went to 40 bar mitzvahs in that year. A huge part in the last year of working together has been to fully accept who the other person is and is not. We appreciate the things we do and don’t have in common. We do have lots of stuff in common, but our backgrounds are

completely different. We are the same age. If you can respect the other person, it can work out. In this case that has been very true doing the conference. PBJ: WHEN YOU GOT READY TO PUSH THAT BUTTON ON THE KICKSTARTER, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

Jessica: No one knew I did it. Elsie: She told me it was live and I did not know. Jessica: It was a week before I told anyone. It was a few days before Podfest. I was at Podfest floating it to people and they said, “Send me the link.” You go along with a plan even if you’re not sure. I do that a lot — that’s how I got my third kid. I did not know if I really wanted to do it. I went to Podfest and it solidified how much different I could make it for our communities. PBJ: WHAT HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE RESPONSE? IT’S BEEN INCREDIBLE.

Elsie: Yes. When we hit our goals, I was so emotional I could barely speak. Years and years of things we had created together. The feeling and the community of women who supported us and wanted to help us out was overwhelming. I was a mess when saying thank you. Jess was the opposite — she was screaming.

“There aren’t enough words to describe what an important role Elsie and Jessica play in the success of my own podcast and as owner of Produce Your Podcast. These ladies work tirelessly to bring a world of knowledge, positivity, and an abundance of encouragement to women in podcasting. I’m grateful to know them and proud to call them friends.” —Traci Long DeForge TraciDeForge.com ProduceYourPodcast.com

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Jessica: I was screaming like a banshee. Then, with as many people that are talking about it, and I hear there is a buzz about it, now I’m wondering why we’re not selling 100 tickets a day. I know that’s not how events work. We sold 200 tickets with Kickstarter, which was amazing, and since then another 200, but it’s been six months. Chris Krimitsos says it will all happen in the last month. I hope not, because if we go from 500 to 800 in the last month, I won’t be prepared. It’s our first one, and I don’t know how to predict our community. I have never just sold to women. I have been questioning everything since the beginning. We keep raising the price, but I know women like to use coupons or a deal, and I have to get that out of my head. I worry about not having enough swag bags. As much buzz as we have, I’m not sure if I’m doing enough to get people in the door. Elsie: I have been working with people who have larger audiences than we do, and their

conversion rate is not as good as ours. One client I have has 80,000 streaming live and she was barely getting to 5%. Jessica: Let me rephrase. I’m very excited it is as successful as it is. I am overjoyed by that fact. I still really want it to live up to everyone’s expectations, and I tell everyone who wants/needs to be there in time for them to come. I don’t know if I’m communicating it effectively. I have tons of support from sponsors and corporate industry support. They are saying now more than ever, we need this. PBJ: WHAT ARE PEOPLE GOING TO GET FROM THE EVENT?

Jessica: Our event has five specific tracks. There is Start, which is about starting a show, which has elements of gaining confidence, surpassing fears, knowing what show is right for you, interviewing well. It can be terrible when you start, and there’s a lot of refining in the process. Then Grow and Accomplish.

“Jess and Elsie have been so generous to host a giveaway for one member of the WOC Podcasters community to attend She Podcasts Live. Jess also recently shared her thoughts about the conference, as well as tips for attendees to get the most out of the event, ways it uniquely caters to women and includes women of color as speakers in our latest blog post. I am so excited to attend She Podcasts Live, and I look forward to creating new memories with the entire She Podcasts team.” —Danielle Desir The Thought Card thethoughtcard@gmail.com thoughtcard.com

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SIDELINES:

What are your hobbies? Jessica: I don’t really have time for hobbies, but I love beauty and fashion blogs and trying new stuff in that arena. Elsie: Podcasting, bullet journaling, essential oils. Who is/was your role model, and why? Jessica: Lucille Ball, Carol Burnett, Joan Rivers, Tina Fey. Women who are funny despite being in “a man’s world” — they succeeded and kicked ass and weren’t afraid to be out there. What are you reading right now? Jessica: Howard Stern’s new book. Elsie: Before We Were Yours by Lisa Wingate. What is your favorite movie? Jessica: This fluctuates based on my mood, but I love Spy with Melissa McCarthy. What is your favorite TV show? Jessica: Schitt’s Creek. Elsie: Game of Thrones, Orphan Black, Downton Abbey. Twitter handle? @jesskupferman @theelsieescobar Instagram? @jesskupferman @theelsieescobar Who are the three most interesting people you know (outside your family), and why? Jessica: Howard Stern, just his interview skills and struggle in radio. Lizzo — being a plus-size kick-ass rapper. Brene Brown — making vulnerability an asset and a skill. Elsie: Jessica Kupferman, Michelle Featherstone, Michelle Carr. If you had 30 minutes, a recording device, and your choice of anyone on the planet, who would you interview, and why? Jessica: This is a really broad one. I’m not sure, that seems like a lot of work, LOL.

Elsie: Jennifer Lopez. I’m so impressed and intrigued by all the things that she’s done and what she keeps doing. I mean at 50 she just did a massive tour and I was blown away. I have so many questions! Name three radio stations you listened to as a kid. Jessica: DC101, Z104, Magic 102.9. Elsie: KISS, K-Love, KXLU. What three apps do you have on your phone that would surprise people? Jessica: I don’t know that I’m particularly surprising. But I have Down Dog, which is a yoga app, I have a few tarot apps, and sometimes I play Angry Birds still. Elsie: DMV Genie, Ms Pac-Man, Perfect365. Do you ever listen to Pandora or Spotify? Jessica: Spotify, constantly. Elsie: Nope. Your most embarrassing career moment. Jessica: Uh … I’m embarrassed all the time. Elsie: Oh, gosh … all kinds of auditions that I went on when I was acting. So many times I was mortified. What one goal has eluded you? Jessica: Health goals, being fit and taking care of myself. I think I need to be hypnotized. Esie: To be able to have consistent “off” time Most proud career achievement so far? Jessica: Creating this event — I guess the Kickstarter. But the best is yet to come. Elsie: Being inducted into the Academy of Podcasting Hall of Fame and the She Podcasts Live Kickstarter! (Even though that second one I didn’t do anything, really.) What are your three favorite podcasts? Jessica: Ricky Gervais, Sleep with Me Podcast. I don’t really listen as of late, to be honest. I’m a non-listener. Elsie: Stay Tuned with Preet, almost everything from Relay.FM, In the Thick.

There is a specific reason I did not say monetize. Podcasts can accomplish a lot that doesn’t have to be money. It can be making you a thought leader, or helping you write a book. We have a Community track, which is about how to incorporate feminism, be an ally, have a global voice, incorporate more diversity, grow a community that is substantial or can sustain a business. The tracks themselves are similar, but skewed more toward what women struggle with and what their goals are. Looking at a page with 100 women speakers, it makes your heart swell to see so many successful women able to speak in one weekend. There’s also learning in space where there is no judgmental or competitive energy whatsoever. No question will be deemed stupid. Nobody will be made to feel bad about where their podcast is at the moment or if they haven’t started yet. We are already full of so much doubt, and I wanted the ambiance to make that go away for a little while so they can figure out what needs to be done. I wanted some glitter as well. I want them to feel pretty, pampered, nurtured, and have them have a good time. I want it to be lighthearted, more of a look inside to see what you need to accomplish your goals. They will get three days of that. Sessions I could

not have dreamed of without the brilliant women we have in our community to present them. PBJ: ELSIE, WHY DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GO?

Elsie: Because of what it feels like to be in a room with people who get you. The feeling I had for the first time when we had mini She Podcasts meetups. We gathered in a restaurant. The feeling is something I can’t put words to. It made me more excited about podcasting when I found people who understand. Sometimes when we’re working behind the scenes, doing all we do, it feels like no one gets you, you have throw-up on your shirt. The reality of the situation is we’re barely putting it out there. It’s not because we’re not smart or competent, it’s because this is what real life looks like. When you are around other women in the same space, it feels so good. Jessica: All that and a lot of motivation and inspiration comes from what you get in person. PBJ

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THIS IS HOW STUFF WORKS AT IHEARTMEDIA In September 2018, iHeartMedia jumped into the podcasting pool with both feet. The company purchased Stuff Media for $55 million and instantly became a major player in the podcasting space. HowStuffWorks.com started out as a reference website and shifted into podcasting several years ago. And they were great at it. HowStuffWorks was one of the first companies to bring podcasting to a mainstream audience with its informative, easy-to-understand explanations of how the world works. Its “Stuff” franchises have attracted a dedicated following for more than a decade, with signature podcast Stuff You Should Know surpassing 500 million downloads this year — the first podcast ever to pass half a billion. Conal Byrne, who was president of the company at the time it was sold to iHeart, became president of the new iHeartPodcast Network. Now he has even more resources to make podcasting successful. PBJ: HOW AND WHY DID YOU GET INTO PODCASTING? WHAT IS YOUR HISTORY WITH THE MEDIUM?

Byrne: About 10 years

ago, I was running content at HowStuffWorks.com. We were a reference website. Our goal was to explain everything in the world. We felt the whole world was worth knowing. We had about 50 or 60 of some of the smartest people I have ever met working under one roof. I knew they were smart, but more importantly, they were storytellers. The assignments were hard, and their job was to explain everything from air conditioners to artificial intelligence. They had to explain it in a way so you would listen to it like you would listen to a story. Every single assignment, they would come back with a home run, hit it out of the park. When podcasting came along as a storytelling format, it was perfect for us to pivot into and try. I had a room full of great storytellers. We launched about six or seven shows quickly, and those shows, to our surprise, went on to be the bedrock of our company and the whole medium — growth so great that you feel like this is a movement. Last year iHeart contacted us. To their credit, iHeart had been growing in podcasting and tracking the medium pretty closely, trying to figure

out when this was going to become a permanent new way that especially younger listeners consume what they might call talk radio. When podcast listening went from one in four people actively listening to one in three, it was a tipping point for larger media companies thinking this is a permanent new way that a subset of people will get their

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best content in the world; it can get tough when you are trying to convince the sales community to sponsor your stuff, and it’s an uphill battle. iHeart solves a lot of that. They put you in the most important and powerful rooms in advertising so you can pitch your story to the people who matter. It’s the same pitch, but I have more access. Same with content. It means a lot when I can sit down with a Will Ferrell and say, “I can put you on the biggest audio stage in the U.S., not just podcasting but broadcast radio, through this show we’re going to make together.” It is the same pitch, but it carries a lot more weight. audio content. iHeartRadio reached out to us, and acquired us in October of 2018, and we effectively became what we call the iHeartPodcast Network. That now encompasses 200-250 shows from Stuff You Should Know to Atlanta Monster to The Breakfast Club. We drive about 130 million downloads a month, which puts us neck-andneck with NPR as the biggest podcast network in the U.S. No coincidence, also a broadcast radio company. PBJ: WAS IT HARD FOR YOU TO SELL AND BECOME PART OF A BIGGER COMPANY?

Byrne: We needed more sales. We had a sales team, like any podcast network, of around seven or eight sellers. iHeart has 2,000 sellers. We needed more marketing. We could tell existing podcast listeners about a new podcast, but we needed to talk to people who were not yet listening to podcasts. iHeart has 850 radio stations. They reach nine out of 10 adults in the U.S. We needed bigger development budgets to go chase the best creators in the world, and iHeart allowed us to do that. I needed three things,

and iHeartMedia not only checked the boxes, but blew it up on all three accounts. Culturally, you always have a fear when running a startup, what’s going to happen when you get acquired by an established company. I had been through those evolutions before, and iHeart is the largest company I’ve worked for that runs like a startup. I think that emanates from Bob Pittman, the way he’s set up the culture and runs it. It’s very fast, fail fast, learn fast, and move on. The prioritization of podcasting at the company is beyond our dreams. PBJ: HOW HAS YOUR LIFE CHANGED, DEALING WITH STORYTELLERS FROM YOUR OWN COMPANY TO NOW DEALING WITH THE ADDITIONS FROM THE IHEART TEAM? ARE YOU STILL ABLE TO GET IN THE WEEDS?

Byrne: Yes, my job now, as it has been, is 50% sales, 50% content. All I have now are bigger and better tools. A year ago, I couldn’t have dreamed of the sales meetings I’m having today. It’s tough when you believe you’re working on the

PBJ: WHERE IS THE PODCASTING INDUSTRY RIGHT NOW?

Byrne: We drive about $500 million-$600 million a year total, as an industry. We are at the starting gate. The growth in terms of audience has been phenomenal. The good news is, and the reason I see investment flowing into the medium now, is because wise investors are seeing a medium that is at the starting gate. There are three or four inflection points that podcasting is staring straight in the face. The first is the Android market. If you own an iOS-powered device, you listen to five to 10 times more podcast content than if you are on an Android device, because it’s harder to access on Android; it’s not obvious what app to use. That will change. You can’t have half the U.S. having a hard time accessing some of the best content being made. Secondly, social media. It’s hard to share and consume audio content on your Facebook news feed. It can’t stay that way. Right now your feed is filled with pictures and videos. What about audio? It is odd because

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audio is some of the most shared content in the world, meaning literally socially shared — it is a word-of-mouth medium now. Third is cars, where it will get easier to listen to podcasts, and fourth, it will get easier on your smart speakers. If you have any other medium that is staring down one or two inflection points, it is worth jumping in — and you are looking at a medium with three or four inflection points. That is a game-changer. PBJ: WHERE IS THE NEXT GREAT TALENT COMING FROM, AND HOW DO YOU FIND NEW SHOWS?

Byrne: The best thing about podcasting is that it’s a bit of a rush. You have the best creators from a lot of different mediums. What first happened was you had native podcasters who took to the medium in long shows — Aaron Mahnke, Jake Brennan, etc. The second wave came from books — authors translated well into podcasting. Third wave is coming from TV and film. We’re in that right now. The fourth, I think, will come from social media. Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube stars are waking up to the power of this medium. PBJ: DO YOU SEE BUSINESSES USING PODCASTING AS A MARKETING ARM?

Byrne: One hundred percent. For my money, iHeart has the best branded-content engine in podcasting. If you have a business whose story is worth telling, we will conceive, build, and launch, from the ground up, a show around your business. We did a show with 23andme. It was a brand that was an early believer in the power of podcasting; they advertised a lot on podcasts. At some point they wanted their own show. They felt the DNA kits they sell

have to zag when other people are zigging. We’re launching shows covering travel, food, fiction, style, and fashion that are lacking a little in podcasting. There are voices that are not in podcasting enough, female hosts, multicultural hosts, and we are going to do what we can to fix that. PBJ: WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR NEW PODCASTERS?

led to moments of surprise and empowerment where people learned about their medical history. That was the point of their company. We launched a show with them called Spit. Spit is about learning where you come from genetically and doing something with that information. That became a hit podcast. Technically, it’s branded content. In practice, it’s a brand telling cool stories about what it does, and consumers liking it. I don’t know a better medium for a brand to patiently, thoroughly tell its story to consumers who are as engaged. This is a great medium for brands. PBJ: WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THE SUNDAY PODCASTS IHEART STARTED ROLLING OUT ON ITS RADIO STATIONS?

Byrne: We have 250 shows. A lot of those shows have back catalogs in the thousands. We have about nine or 10 shows that have over 1,000 episodes in their back catalogs. We got started with this medium very early; we have a lot of content. iHeart has a lot of radio stations, and one way we wanted to experiment with growing the audience of podcasting is to commandeer those airwaves for podcasts. We took 10-15 shows for starters and cut episodes down for a radio clock,

around 30 minutes, and we gave them up on a platform to programmers across iHeart’s 850 stations. Those programmers have the strong recommendation to program that on a Sunday night, but they have the right to choose what works for their format. If I am a Classic Rock format, I might choose Disgraceland. If I run a CHR, I might choose a show called Committed. If I run an Urban format, maybe I choose The Breakfast Club. We have genres that work for your format, but the idea is let’s see what happens. PBJ: YOU SAID CUT IT UP — ARE THEY GOING TO BE ABLE TO SELL LOCAL ADS INTO THOSE?

Byrne: Around it. For now we are trying to move quick, and the easiest thing is to load it up as one unit. PBJ: ARE YOU HAPPY WITH MEASUREMENT? WHERE DOES IT NEED TO EVOLVE FOR ADVERTISERS?

Byrne: Podcasting even in the last year has come miles in terms of data, measurement, and targeting. Podcasting started out primitively — you would burn your ad into an audio file, distribute that to phones, and roughly count downloads, then run the math and say these are

the impressions served. We have come miles. I talk about impressions delivered. We run our ad service through a third-party platform, we don’t control the numbers. We deliver dashboards directly from the third party to the sponsor so it is trustable. We control the ad load on every single platform where we distribute. If you buy and you put your ads on my show, I will serve your ad up everywhere from Spotify to Apple to iHeartRadio, just as you see fit, in the position you want. I can audience-target now with Nielsen segments. I can geotarget if you just want to focus on the Eastern Seaboard. All the stuff you are used to in digital media, I am starting to do in podcasting. We have come a long way in terms of tracking and targetability. That was the moment big equity brands were waiting for. They believed in the power of the medium in terms of quality, they just needed the data to back up their media buy, and now it is there. PBJ: WHERE IS PODCASTING IN TERMS OF CATEGORIES?

Byrne: I think true crime is commoditized. We will still make a lot of great true crime shows, and we have a pipeline that is the best in the business. In business and creativity, you

Byrne: Whatever you launch, make sure to make a plan to publish it for 52 weeks. Don’t stop no matter how boring or bad it gets. Take it on for a year. Pick a topic you are passionate about, one that you would be talking about even if the microphone were not on, and build it for a year. Build an audience, and when the time is right, bring it to a network. It will help you leapfrog three or four years of growth. You will have a marketing machine and sales team to support you. That model has worked for many people. PBJ: WHAT IS THE PODCASTING INDUSTRY GOING TO LOOK LIKE IN THREE TO FIVE YEARS?

Byrne: I would like to see more multicultural voices, more genres, fiction, audio drama. I think it is a powerful idea to have theater of the mind kick in. When I see my kids who are teenagers consuming YouTube, I want a better offering for them. I think podcasting could be it. I want them to use their brains more instead of caving their minds. I want them racing, and I think audio does that better. I think you will see much more Android and international audiences, which is exciting. We are taking a few of our shows and translating them into five or six languages across the world. PBJ

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7 QUESTIONS WITH HOLLY FREY

Holly Frey is co-host of Stuff You Missed in History Class, and she’s also an executive producer for the HowStuffWorks podcast network. She’s been podcasting since 2012.

in History Class were stepping away. One had moved on to another job, and the other was ready for a break from all the research. We just transitioned to that show and have been there ever since.

PBJ: TELL US HOW AND WHEN YOU GOT INTO PODCASTING.

PBJ: HOW MUCH READING AND RESEARCH GOES INTO EVERY EPISODE?

Frey: I was working as a tech editor at HowStuffWorks, which meant I prepped articles on the next evolution of the iPhone, etc. Our boss heard Tracy Wilson and I at a work party being snarky, and the next day he said, “I think you guys should have a podcast.” It just kind of happened.

Frey: We publish two new shows a week. For each of those Tracy takes the lead on one and I take the other, because each takes between 20 and 30 hours of research and prep before we sit in front of the mic. It’s laborintensive, but a labor of love. PBJ: WHERE DO THE TOPICS COME FROM?

you can be ready when that opportunity comes. PBJ: WHAT MAKES A SUCCESSFUL SHOW?

Frey: It depends. For some it’s not about download numbers, but about putting out content they love and people will respond to. For others, they want big numbers and set that goalpost where they want. It varies a bunch. Tracy mentioned during our panel that for us, PopStuff felt very successful. It was a labor of love. We had an engaged audience, etc., but it didn’t make a lot of money. Some people would consider that not successful, but for me, it felt successful for us.

Frey: Some come from our own interest areas. I’m guilty of Frey: It was called PopStuff. focusing too much on French It was a sociological look at pop history because I love it. We culture I hosted with Tracy. It also get great suggestions from was near and dear to our hearts. listeners. If it were not part of a network, Oftentimes we are it would have been considered researching one show and there successful, but we were part will be a footnote in a source of a network, so numbers were that makes us go, “Hey, what is not quite where we wanted that?” So it goes on the list. It them. As that was sunsetting, may be a show later. Sometimes PBJ: WHAT IS THE the hosts of Stuff You Missed there is something going on in BIGGEST CHALLENGE the world that inspires us. FACING THE PODCASTING PBJ: WHAT WAS THE FIRST PODCAST YOU DID?

INDUSTRY TODAY? PBJ: THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE READING THIS WHO ARE GOING TO BE FIRST-TIME PODCASTERS. WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR THEM?

Frey: Do it right now. Don’t wait. My biggest source of dismay when I talk to people is they say, “I just need a company to give me a chance.” I say if you want a podcast, you have all the technology you need in your pocket to start a show today. It may not be funded or make money, but you’ll get experience. Don’t wait for someone to hand you an opportunity. Do it now so

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Frey: Part of it is that podcasting is wonderful and it democratizes the sharing of information and everyone can have a voice. The problem is it gets a little muddy. It’s hard to make sure people get spotlights. Tiny podcasts could use the opportunity to get a light shone on them, and they don’t always. Making sure all of those voices are really curated in a way people can find them. That’s the trick. PBJ

Allyson Marino is the CEO of Lipstick & Vinyl. She’s not someone who likes to be told to stay in her lane. When she wasn’t being listened to in corporate radio, she hung out her own shingle in the podcasting space. Marino believes more women need to be heard, and podcasting is the perfect outlet for those unique and creative voices.

Marino: I worked in sales during my media career the whole time. As a salesperson, I was told to “stay in your lane, you have nothing to do with the content, just go sell what we tell you to sell.” I got sick of supporting lots of white guys, frankly. They were making the decisions about everything being put on the air. Nobody would pay me to have a foot in sales and one in content, so that’s why I started the company. PBJ: TELL US ABOUT LIPSTICK & VINYL.

Marino: It’s my first time as an entrepreneur, and that has been a learning experience. PBJ: WHEN DID YOU GET It’s lonely sometimes, but I STARTED IN PODCASTING, believe in what we are doing AND WHY? in bringing female voices to Marino: I got started the forefront in podcasting. podcasting in 2014, before I feel we have a wide-open Serial happened. I came from opportunity to make the media the radio world. It was the next look more like the people who logical place to go. They were are living in our society. I am the people most interested in raising money continually. my resume. PBJ: TELL US ABOUT YOUR TIME IN THE RADIO WORLD.

Marino: It was very difficult back in 2014 to be an internal change agent at a big traditional radio company. You couldn’t turn the Titanic on a dime, and that is what I was trying to do. To be able to do something new and create new types of audio experiences was really appealing. PBJ: WHAT DID YOU DO IN RADIO, AND FOR HOW LONG?

Marino: I worked at Westwood One for five years in advertising sales on the network.

PBJ: WHAT ARE THE SHOWS ON YOUR NETWORK?

Marino: We represent about 20 shows for advertising sales. They include shows like The Double Shift, which is popular. It’s about working mothers, and each episode profiles a different working mom who is bucking convention and not letting being a mom get in the way of her career. Gaslit Nation is hosted by a New York Times best-selling author and a documentarian about how Trump is lying to us and gaslighting us as a nation and what we can do about it. We have comedians and internet stars. They are all dynamic women.

PBJ: HOW DID YOU GET IN TOUCH WITH ALL THESE PEOPLE TO BRING THEM INTO WHAT YOU HAVE CREATED?

Marino: One by one. One would lead to another. I have been a student of the podcasting world since I started. I have made it my business to go deep in the trenches. PBJ: HOW DID YOU GET THE WORD OUT?

Marino: We all try to help each other. Cross-promote across and outside the network. It does take PR. We have employed a PR firm. There is no magic secret. We are trying everything. PBJ: HOW ARE SALES GOING?

Marino: Every advertiser gets a host-read endorsement-style spot. The hosts all believe in what the advertiser is selling. They have tried the product. It is authentic and helpful to their listeners. We are getting a reputation in the ad community for being a place to go for female audience.

SICK OF CORPORATE RADIO, SHE LAUNCHED HER OWN PODCAST NETWORK

PBJ: SO YOU DECIDED TO LAUNCH YOUR OWN PODCASTING COMPANY.

PBJ: ARE YOU MAKING MONEY?

Marino: I would not say I could survive on the money I’m making. It takes a while. Longer than you would like it to. PBJ: WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR OTHER PODCASTERS/WOMEN?

Marino: Find your community. People in the podcast world are friendly, open, and willing to help. I have never had bad luck when I called someone to have a conversation. They have always been nice, so reach out. PBJ

podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

Editorial Director

BY ED RYAN

PODCASTING AS A BRANDING TOOL More and more businesses have turned to podcasting as a way to connect directly with their customers and clients and to build their brands. The medium is being used by businesses that have a loyal following to stay connected and introduce new products. It’s being used by accountants and lawyers to stay top-of-mind when the need for their services arises. And it’s being tested by big businesses to stay connected with consumers. Ginger Shimp joined SAP in 2004 as a marketer for the company. Her job has allowed her to work with hundreds of companies in an assortment of industries, ranging from $300 million all the way up to well in excess of $1 billion in revenue.

Like many other companies, SAP is dabbling in podcasting, and Ginger and her colleague Jeff Janiszewski are responsible for executing on some of those podcasting ideas. The company launched a fiction podcast called Searching for Salaì. It’s a nine-episode highly produced storytelling series that really doesn’t directly promote an SAP product. The podcast focuses on the fictional character art history buff and podcaster Charlotte Warburton, who decides to investigate what seems to be a tall tale of time travel by Jack Finney, the story’s architect, who claims to be the longtime apprentice of Leonardo da Vinci, Andrea Salaì. What starts as a lighthearted

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interview turns into a tangled investigation that challenges Charlotte’s heart and mind. Jack’s stories can be explained through technology, real-life theories of time travel, and documented events in history. He claims he has traveled to this time to teach how innovation can happen when technology, people, and data are combined. Charlotte takes her listeners on an exploration of Jack’s psyche, and gains quite a bit of self-discovery throughout the process. As we mentioned before, the podcast is certainly not a direct marketing piece for an SAP product. However, the product SAP wants customers to be thinking about is SAP Leonardo®, a

guided, design-led approach to digital transformation. SAP Leonardo bundles new intelligent technologies with design thinking, services, and expertise so customers can transform quickly — with less risk. SAP Leonardo shares its name with the original “Renaissance Man” — Leonardo da Vinci. PBJ: WHAT DOES SAP DO?

Shimp: We used to be a global software company that provided the software required to run businesses. We have been growing, morphing, and changing with the times, and we provide more than software. We provide consulting, either directly or via our partner ecosystem, on how our software can help businesses with their own digital transformations. We have teams of people we call “Industry Expert Advisers” who have, on average, 20 years’

experience in their industries. They know the different roles charged with leading change and help the companies going through a transformation. They work with our customers to triage the situation and figure out their path forward. Our customers get to tap into the knowledge of our IEAs, who, through working with all of our customers’ value chains, suppliers, and customers, as well as their competitors, have a broad perspective. PBJ: HOW AND WHY DID THE COMPANY THINK ABOUT GETTING INTO PODCASTING?

Shimp: One of our customers did a podcast. GE was trying to spread the word about a new technology that used sound waves to heal the human body. They did an amazing podcast called The Message. My colleague Jeff and

I heard about it, and I put a quick PowerPoint together and sent it off to my SVP with some other ideas. She loved it. It was almost a year before Jeff and I got a chance to dig in and work on it. It made so much sense because we just launched an innovation methodology, SAP Leonardo. It sits on a digital platform and encompasses machine learning and Big Data, and IoT and analytics. All these cuttingedge, cloud-based technologies are bundled in SAP Leonardo. We really didn’t have a competitor. And it’s a beautiful blend of art and science, just as Leonardo DaVinci, who was both artist and scientist. We knew we couldn’t do the same old marketing tactics to market such an innovative platform. PBJ: I AM GUESSING YOU DIDN’T KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE TECHNICAL

PARTS OF HOW TO PUT A PODCAST TOGETHER. WHAT STEPS DID YOU TAKE TO GET IT LAUNCHED?

Shimp: We wanted something that could get the message out to the people. And we wanted to humanize that message so it wasn’t just about technology. I had just done a ton of research about how people learn: some people like to read, some like to listen, and some are visual learners, etc. We were also doing research on how senior executives consume information. We knew we had to parse it down. I developed what I call my “digital chop shop,” where we take the big piece of information and chop it into small, digitally native, socially shareable chunks, and push it out via different mediums. For example, for one audience we need to create a 30-second

podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

video. For another, we want to create an infographic. For yet another audience, an e-book may work best, etc. When we came to concepting the podcast, we had different formats to consider such as an interview or a solocast, but we were looking at The Message and we wanted to go down that route. We engaged with several different agencies. We partnered with Column Five Media to solicit script ideas, hold auditions to hire the talent, record it, etc. We were lucky because we caught the attention of Holt Bailey, who authored and directed for us. He, in turn, brought in Alex Stein to produce. Next, Smash Marketing created the most amazing site for us, which included not only the podcast, but all the other pieces of the campaign. Then, we had to get it out there.

Once again, Jeff and I rolled up our sleeves and did lots of research. That’s how we came across an amazing guy, Evo Terra. A single conversation with him told us there was no way we would become an expert at this, and that was fine. We are expert marketers, we don’t need to be expert podcasters. That’s where he came in. He was able to break the entire process down and say, “Give me this information, in this format, at this time.” Then boom! OK, not really magic, but the next best thing. It was a very symbiotic relationship. He knew the steps to get a product-cast into market. Jeff and I had so much to learn and were psyched when it all came together. There was a lot of research that went into it every step of the way and some great partners, an amazing cast, a talented crew. A dash of luck didn’t go awry.

PBJ: WERE YOU TRYING TO PUSH THE PODCAST TO CONSUMERS, EMPLOYEES, VENDORS?

people are decisionmakers, some are key influencers and some are the users of the software, the advisers. They go Shimp: Humans. We into their supervisors and say, “I wanted to talk to the people can’t get my job done because wherever they could pick up something is broken.” Those the message. If it’s an executive people are the influencers waiting at an airport and has to the decisionmakers and a little time to kill, we had the key influencers. We needed content. Our real targets are to target up and down the the people who work in the chain with a story that was businesses we serve. The fact memorable. that we hit a whole bunch of That’s what we did with other targets is fine. Those Searching for Salaì. It was people talk to other people. entertaining, and it gets people We didn’t want to thinking about the possibilities disenfranchise the people who of technology in everyday life. would never purchase our And if that gets you on your software, and that is why SAP journey of discovery, then we is not mentioned in the story. did our job. You have to listen to the credits at the end or go online. The PBJ: DO YOU FEEL YOU business part is the surround. GOT THE RESPONSE We were going after the YOU WERE LOOKING people who work at our FOR COMPARED TO THE customers’ and prospects’ AMOUNT OF WORK YOU businesses. Some of those PUT INTO THAT SERIES?

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Shimp: We were struggling with defining what success would look like for us. We’re happy that we overshot our goals, but we think they were modest. Knowing what we know now, we could be a lot more efficient, which is the case with so many things. If we were to do something akin to this again, we would be so much more efficient. When we look at the reviews, we can tell the ones who are just podcaster aficionados vs. the ones with more of a business interest; the comments they are leaving are the qualitative reports we need to say yes, we hit our mark. PBJ: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT PODCASTING AS A MARKETING TOOL?

Shimp: We are sold. Our supervisors are pleased with how it went. We are a whole lot smarter about how to hit our audience than we were the first time around. Podcasting in general is in all of our tool bags right now. It’s a question of which type of podcasting to do. Sometimes the answer is not storytelling or needing to humanize the brand. Sometimes it’s much more tactical and practical, in which case we would never choose this format. PBJ: DOES THE COMPANY DO OTHER PODCASTS?

Shimp: We have a number of podcasts. In particular A Call to Lead, hosted by . Jennifer Morgan, president of SAP Americas and Asia Pacific Japan. It’s an interview style. That one is more of a monologue, with some interviews sharing insights. We have done a tremendous amount of work with S.M.A.C. Talk Live, just to name a few. PBJ: IS A CALL TO LEAD AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC:

Shimp: Yes. It’s available wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, etc. Jennifer interviews a stunning number of guests. PBJ: WHAT’S YOUR CONCLUSION ABOUT PODCASTING AND WHERE IT FITS INTO MARKETING?

Shimp: That gets back to my digital chop shop, some people learn by listening, others are more visual, etc. In a digital world, the buyer’s journey has changed so much from how marketers do the construct. We used to start at the beginning, go through to the end, then stop. We knew that any given individual who got our second or third touch had already been exposed to our first or second. Because the digital world is hyperlinked and people are jumping in and out of the

buyer’s journey at unpredictable points, it’s hard to understand what they have been exposed to previously. Our content can’t disenfranchise anyone and must be welcoming to the people we want to woo. As ambassadors of our brands, we need to present the information in ways they want to receive it. We marketers will always have the written word in our toolkit, for example in blogs. In fact, we commissioned two different blog series to support our campaign. One is very factual and corporate, the other continues the fictional world of Salaì by introducing a new character who narrates more of the story. Video will continue to dominate, however, a lot of video is consumed with the audio off, so we put the written word in our videos. We even promoted our podcast via video

by creating not only a trailer but also episode teasers that we ran on YouTube. But there is always going to be a place for people who listen. You can see the growth of podcasting and audiobooks. It’s not just a flash in the pan. One of the things we did for this campaign is to take our white papers and turn them into audio papers. White papers are difficult to read because they are so dense, but with the voiceover, instead of it taking two hours to read, you can listen in 40 minutes. Another thing we did was to create audiograms for use in social media. Audio is here to stay. With audio you can hear the passion in the voices of our experts. Now how stinking cool is that? PBJ

podcastbusinessjournal.com | October/November 2019

PODCAST NICHES: BUSINESS APPLICATIONS

CEO and founder of Straight Up Podcasts

BY JOHNNY PETERSON

One of the great things about the podcasting community is that we’re able to meet and connect with people we likely wouldn’t meet otherwise outside our niche. Some folks work exclusively in fictional podcasting, some in true crime, religion, politics, and even video game commentary. The categories and topics are virtually endless, and the subgenres and applications within each are even more refined. As the popularity of podcasting continues to explode, it offers the opportunity for the medium to be utilized for more than the standard interview or stream-of-consciousness rant. I want to discuss the applications within my own niche: business podcasting. Nearly all the podcasts I have an impact on fall within the business category. However, business podcasting is so much more than host X interviewing guest Y about the story of starting a business. Organizations can utilize podcasting in so many ways beyond the personal branding of an executive. The first branch is internal communications. With platforms like Transistor, companies can differentiate themselves beyond memos and newsletters to provide password-protected audio to condense a variety of content and disseminate it among employees with ease. The specifics of the content can fall under a myriad of categories: weekly announcements, upcoming events, and FAQs. Imagine avoiding having the same conversation 10 times with 10 different employees about a company policy when you can point them to the company

podcast, where every question they could have is answered in detail and the ability to expand on it is readily available. The second branch is engagement within an organization. I currently work with a company whose goal for their podcast is to foster company pride, educate employees on the history of the organization, and offer an opportunity for a thousand employees scattered across different branches to get to know the executive team they might otherwise never get an opportunity to meet. They are able to accomplish this through in-depth interviews with the founders of the company, each executive, and major partners and customers who are able to put into spoken word the benefits they’re provided through doing business with this company. The third branch is employee onboarding and training. While I am totally aware of the obvious benefit in face-toface training, I believe there is more that can be done to better integrate new employees into an organization through podcasting. Every department can have their own episode/ series explaining in detail how their function benefits the company, and each role within the department. For example, a director of marketing can have their own 15-minute episode as to how their daily activities of brand-building help acquire customers, and within that the lower-level marketing employees can explain their day-to-day activities and go into as much detail as the company desires in order to provide another point of contact and information for new hires. The final branch is an external brand-building tool. Who would’ve thought 10 years ago that McDonald’s of all places

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would have a podcast? They used it as a creative way to be transparent with customers in directly addressing their mishandling of the return of their coveted Szechuan sauce. Companies like GE, Sephora, and ZipRecruiter have also followed with their own branded podcasts. These types of podcasts don’t necessarily need to be apology-cannons, but they offer an opportunity for providing a deeper look into the organization, much like the executive team engaging with employees through private podcasting, as I mentioned earlier. They don’t even need to directly be monetizing the podcast, but it can be a great way to develop that personal relationship with customers that every business strives to do on a daily basis, which results in real dollars moving into the bank account through their traditional products or services. This is only a surface-level look at how the amazing world of podcasting can be implemented across every industry. The addition of podcasting within large companies also offers an opportunity for job growth in the form of more production companies, content curators, and improved podcasting equipment. I personally am very much looking forward to the day that podcasting is synonymous with businesses, executive teams, and employee and customer engagement. PBJ Johnny Peterson is the CEO and founder of Straight Up Podcasts, providing professional podcast services and consulting. He is also the host of the Pod Logic podcast. You can reach Johnny at johnny@ straightup podcasts.com

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