Issuu

A NZ Dairy Exporter special publication

PART THREE

Farm Ownership & Succession 2021

There’s no time like the present to sort the future of your farm. 57% of kiwi farmers are considering succession planning. Are you one of them? Chat to one of our ASB Rural team today to see how we could help get your farm one step ahead for the future. 0800 787 252 ASB Rural Research, March 2021

asb.co.nz/rural ASB Bank Limited 56180 23594 0621

Welcome

to the third and final part of our Farm Ownership & Succession series, delivered with your copy of NZ Dairy Exporter magazine. In this part, you’ll read two farmer case studies and more advice from experts in the challenging succession planning advisory sector. The experts offer words of wisdom and, in some cases, warnings about what not to do when farming families start the journey to a successful succession plan. Positive succession outcomes are not always easy and both experts have seen their share of disasters. This issue’s two farmer case studies chart the careers of two ambitious, aspiring farm owners taking different approaches to achieve their goals. South Canterbury sharemilker Will Green is determined to build equity through buying more cows while Jack and Tis Scheres from Waikato are sharemilking their way to farm ownership. Our plan is to pull all the content together in a single e-book and make it available free of charge for anyone to download from our website. This will be available from late October, so keep it in mind.

CONTENTS 4

Start on succession before your children know if farming is for them, advises Rural Coach Sarah Barr.

Will Green is driven to achieve his goal of farm ownership. Find out what his plans are and who’s involved.

Don’t let youthful enthusiasm go to waste, says farmer and consultant Derek Neal.

There’s no ‘I’ in ‘team’ so collaborate your way to a successful outcome is the advice from ASB.

Jack and Tiz Scheres are taking a more traditional pathway to farm ownership,building equity by sharemilking.

Once again, we want to recognise the support of ASB. Without its support, this series would not have happened. All the best with your own succession journey. Tony Leggett Publisher, NZ Dairy Exporter

COVER: South Canterbury dairy farmer Will Green works closely with his local ASB rural manager Simon Cooney on achieving his goal of farm ownership. Photo: Stu Jackson (visit photographs.co.nz)

Farm Ownership & Succession 2021 is produced by NZ Farm Life Media, publisher of NZ Dairy Exporter and Country-Wide. Visit nzfarmlife.co.nz for details of how to subscribe to each magazine. Publisher: Tony Leggett, tony.leggett@nzfarmlife.co.nz, 027 4746 093. Contributors: Penny Clark-Hall, Sheryl Haitana, Emma McCarthy, Brad Hanson, Karen Trebilcock, Kate Taylor. Designer: Emily Rees.

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Adaptive plans should be the goal BY: KATE TAYLOR

t’s never too early to start thinking about succession, even when the next generation is too young to know they want to have a farming career, says Rural Coach consultant Sarah Barr. “What if you plan for it and it doesn’t happen, what have you lost? Starting early helps to get the business into a position where succession is possible, even if it doesn’t occur. No one regrets making their business more transparent and more profitable.” Sarah has worked with families that

changed their plans multiple times and ended up in a stronger position than the original plan. “Plans are not fixed in stone and should be adapted as things change, but you don’t have that luxury if you wait until the bitter end.” She has been with Rural Coach, previously known as Coach Approach Rural, for about 10 years working predominantly with sheep, beef and dairy properties in Canterbury, Otago and Southland. “I have a real passion for helping people achieve their dreams. I had my own family succession that didn’t quite go the way my brother would have liked it, so that was an interesting background starter, but I enjoy working with people to see where they’re

heading and helping them navigate there. “I’ve also done some contract work helping farmers through disasters – droughts, earthquakes and mycoplasma Bovis – and it has become clearer and clearer for me how important it is for people to have support around them; much better outcomes are achieved with a team approach.” She says there are three things that enable people to achieve their aspirations and to cope with what life throws at them – a purpose, a plan and a team around them. “If I had to boil the advice down to just one thing, I would say to start the conversations early. So often, the older farmers feel like if they start this conversation, that’s them hanging up the boots. But that’s the joy of

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“IF I HAD TO BOIL THE ADVICE DOWN TO JUST ONE THING, I WOULD SAY TO START THE CONVERSATIONS EARLY.”

Rural Coach Sarah Barr advocates getting on with succession planning even before the next generation has decided if they want a farming career.

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starting early; get the family around the table, start the discussion and have annual reviews. Even if they’re not going to be a succeeding farming partner, the next generation will be learning valuable financial skills and business knowledge. If people have been part of the journey they will have a better understanding of why decisions get made the way they do.” Sarah says she has just finished working with a family where one son is taking on a role in the finance side of the farming business and another is building his general business acumen in order to leverage his own wealth creation as time goes on. Starting early also helps those wanting to return to the farm. “If you wait until you’re 63 to say you’re ready to go, it may not work. You’re giving them no time to prepare, and the more prepared they are, the greater likelihood of success. Succession is usually possible,

even when starting late, but there may be compromises required of mum and dad, the succeeding partner or other family members. Mum & dad’s needs must come first, ultimately the decision remains theirs.” The later the conversation is left the more likely it will be about money, rather than a sustainable family business. Occasionally it’s not feasible to keep the farm. “I did some work with a couple where the end result was a realisation keeping the farm in the family was not going to be possible [for financial reasons]. They were in their 50s and the sale of the farm has given them the opportunity to design the rest of their lives rather than possibly having it decided for them. In taking a proactive approach, they’ve designed an awesome next phase of their lives that they’re excited about, and feel a great sense of relief in having made that decision.” Independent facilitators can draw out more thoughts that people are afraid to tell their family. Sarah had one family where the parents were clear in their heads that their son was going to take over the farm. He had three older sisters who were all happy with that decision. But the son wasn’t sure he wanted to farm and he didn’t know how to tell them. “When it finally came out, mum and dad’s chins hit the deck. I rang the mum the next day to check in. She’d asked dad what he was doing for the day; he replied, ‘I’m going to sulk’. He did for several days then said, ‘I’m so pleased we heard that. The last thing I want to do is force someone into farming who doesn’t want to be there.’ They ended up leasing extra land, which gave them capacity to justify another worker. “So dad’s needs were met – he wanted to ease back a bit – and it gave the son time to consider where he wanted to be. It took two or three years, but the son did decide to go farming. If we hadn’t worked through the people aspects, the emotional needs, it might not have worked out for either party.” She says more families are adopting an annual review process and involve the family’s professional advisors – banker, accountant and lawyer – so they’re hearing the same dialogue and all working with the same information.

Succession: Walls or opportunity? BY: KATE TAYLOR

assion for improving skills in young people naturally leads to succession and replaces “walls with opportunities”, says Wairarapa farmer, farm consultant and former Taratahi board chairman Derek Neal. “Train them, give them the resources and let them go. Support and advise them but let them have the opportunity to make their own mistakes,” he says. “I have seen numerous examples where people have had plenty of ambition without the opportunity to express it and their drive has been extinguished. I’m yet to see an example where it has been re-ignited. It is a waste of human capability.” “On the flip side, I have seen multiple instances where succession has been organised early, leading to outstanding outcomes.” Succession is not a scripted recipe; it needs to be customised for each situation. “There is a tendency for people and families to let the succession issue cruise and not rock the boat. To me that delay is a waste.” “If succession is not timely, people are denied the opportunity to express their potential. It can hold them back. People can do amazing things, but they need an environment where those things can happen and where they are not held down or held back,” he says. Parents firstly instil values such as love, care and respect in their children and this is closely followed by education. People come out of our formal education system full of information but limited business and wider life skills. “They need rounding up with worldly experience such as an OE and work experience. At around 26, they are often ready to go; somewhat raw, but rearing to go.” Neal says people farming from the age of 26 to their mid-fifties usually have unlimited energy and absolute hunger to improve and grow their business.

Farmer and farm consultant Derek Neal strongly advocates involving partners and spouses when families start developing their succession plan.

“There is a big difference between 26 and being older than 55 and it can be as simple as what you do after an intense week of farm activities ... bounce up for another day or reach for the painkillers?” “At age 55-plus, some people will carry on, but health and wear and tear can start to have an influence. Also, depending on the family makeup, they are often starting to look over their shoulder at the next generation. It is time to review the loop.” Derek does not believe succession is being handled any better or smarter now than when he started in the industry. Views of older family members may be rooted in understandable concerns about the loss of control. They may not want to give it up. They want to be involved but are unsure what their next role looks like. There is the concern about exposure to matrimonial property risk – an in-law walking away with some of the asset. Derek says at times there needs to be more push from the next generation. The younger ones sometimes hold back, he says, not because they lack ambition, but they

may have so much respect for the older generation in the family that they are reticent to trigger an adversarial situation. There is one thing Derek is emphatic about: include the ‘add-ons’ from – spouses and partners – from day one. “The add-ons come into a farming family and are expected to be totally committed, to give the best part of their lives and a fair part of their bodies to produce the next generation, and yet there is often suspicion from the older generation that they are gold diggers.” “The matrimonial risk is real. I personally believe your whole life is a risk,” he says. “You can do all you can with the help of lawyers and accountants to mitigate the matrimonial risk, but it should never be an excuse to not make progress.” Having meetings without the presence of spouses and partners and deciding to remain with the status quo needs care when it is delivered to them back home. “The add-ons will roll their eyes; so, either involve them directly or give them an idea there is at least a deadline for change.”

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Delving into diversification BY: BEN SPEEDY GENERAL MANAGER FOR RURAL AT ASB

he future of farming is reliant on good people making good decisions - successfully managing risk today to ensure the farm is fit for tomorrow. We know from conversations with our customers those decisions weigh heavily on the minds of farmers. Recent Kantar research conducted by ASB Rural told us 57% of farmers surveyed have succession planning on their minds. We know that for some owners of intergenerational businesses there can be added pressure when it comes to the business succeeding both today and into the future; it’s appeared to work up until this point so there is an expectation that it must continue to be successful. Owning and running a business has never been easy, but inter-generational business owners often carry an extra burden with extra considerations, and at ASB Rural we work with our customers to support them as they make these decisions. We are committed to helping food and fibre producers move into stronger financial positions and to enable them to manage their farm succession. One way we can help is working with customers to explore the merits of different ways to

maximise the potential in their business. There are many ways to do this, one we are seeing more frequently among our customers is diversification. The same research told us 26% of farmers are looking at diversification into non-farm activities while 21% are considering diversifying into a different farming type, livestock or crops. Diversification, at its core, is building additional revenue streams within your business. It looks different for everyone - something that works for one farm and one family may not be suitable for another because no two farms are the same. Diversification and a steady run of improving returns can provide opportunities for farmers to invest back into the business, including in environmental initiatives. Sustainable farms and orchards continue to be sought after and significant work is being put into achieving more environmentally friendly practices locally. And while diversifying may come with additional cost up front, it can help with enduring business sustainability. Much like private investors move to have a diverse portfolio to help hedge their finances and income streams, farmers can too. In recent years, New Zealand has had a golden run through increased capital gains on residential properties, while dairy prices - and in fact a range of commodity prices

“Diversification, at its core, is building additional revenue streams within your business.” Ben Speedy.

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- have been up for a good part of the past five years. The sharemarket has gone from strength to strength, too. But what if the good run doesn’t last forever? Diversifying may offer you additional security and options for when it comes time to action your succession plan. Diversifying is not without risk, but we’ve seen how it can really pay off for farmers too. When considering diversification, it’s important to remember there are not only financial gains but options for nonfarming successors, too. Conversations with other farmers and trusted advisors about diversified asset portfolios can be helpful to get you thinking beyond the financials. Perhaps diversifying is an opportunity to upskill or lean into new areas of farming, or does the possibility of utilising land in a different way interest you? Is there one area of farming or horticulture that you’ve always been interested in but never quite got around to pursuing? Is this your opportunity? If you’re not already, some key areas you could think about are risk versus return and skillset. Higher returns often come with higher risk. It’s important to remember that what is up at the moment may not stay up, and sometimes ‘slow and steady’ gains can be better in the long term than more volatile options. Everyone has their own risk profile – some people thrive off risk, while others taking on that same risk can’t sleep at night. And finally, do you have a good understanding of the undertaking of the new venture? If not, do you have the capacity and the appetite to learn something new? For example, if you’re carving off some land to plant kiwifruit do you have the funds to buy licences (if needed) and the infrastructure, machinery and know-how to ensure a successful crop year after year? If diversification is something you’re interested in as you prepare for succession, start thinking about the ways you may be able to get your business one step ahead. Don’t rush it, take your time and seek out expert advice because there are lots of opportunities available to us in a country like ours. Remember it’s never too early to start thinking about succession and it is never too late.

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ONFARM

Seven year plan to farm ownership BY: KAREN TREBILCOCK PHOTOS: STU JACKSON

ill Green’s email address says it all – greener grazing. The 31-year-old, who grew up on his parents’ tenant farm in Shropshire, UK, is now working towards buying his first farm in New Zealand. “In seven years, I can do it. I probably could go a bit earlier and buy a smaller dairy farm, but I’ve got to make sure I keep to the plan. I want a 600 to 700 cow farm.”

That many cows is important because then he’ll need staff and staff are important when you might have to make an emergency trip home to England occasionally when the borders finally open. Will first visited New Zealand in 2010 to have a look around and came back for good in 2014 working for dairy farmers Kieran and Leonie Guiney near Fairlie who had got to farm ownership through sharemilking.

However, in June last year he took on the position of lower order sharemilker for Dairy Holdings on a 1060-cow farm at Hinds near Ashburton and with the job came the opportunity to buy cows. Last year he bought 400 mixed-aged cows which he milks in his herd and he bought another 330 cows recently which are in another Dairy Holding’s herd. “In Dairy Holdings there is lots of opportunities for the right people. They’re

Will Green’s job is managing a 1060-cow farm for Dairy Holdings Limited, at Hinds near Ashburton.

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WILL’S STRATEGY TO FARM OWNERSHIP • $1/kg MS surplus after tax $350,000 pa x 7 years ($2.45 million). • Money saved invested in cows within current business and lease back for 8-10% return (4-6% higher than cost of interest). • In 7 years equity will be $3.5 - $4 million (including current equity).

really behind me. They want to see me grow as quickly as I can.” Also helping him out is his ASB rural manager Simon Cooney who is based in the Timaru branch. “He’s farming himself, so he understands what I’m trying to do. If I’ve got an idea I’ll pop him an email and he replies straight away and then we’ll sit down and talk about it. I’m probably emailing him too much. He must get sick of hearing from me sometimes!” Farming accountants Brown Glassford “keep me out of trouble”. The plan is to be whole herd owner sharemilking with Dairy Holdings in two years, increase cow purchases, pay off debt and be ready when the right farm comes along to buy. “My farm supervisor at Dairy Holdings is Mick O’Connor and he’s great to talk to. He is mentoring me.” Will said he’s not interested in diversifying his investments and instead will stick with cows. “I really like owning cows. I get a warm feeling doing it.” “Farming is my hobby as well as my career. It’s what I do. It’s all I’ve ever wanted to do.” His parents milk 100 cows on a tenant farm, along with running a few sheep and beef cattle, which Will says is enough for them to get by on, but farm purchase would be “very challenging”.

Aspiring farm owner Will Green has set his sights on farm ownership in seven years.

“Although things are changing over there. I have a mate still in the UK and he looks like he might be able to do it but cases like that are few and far between.” With no help from parents and the UK exchange rate, it’s money from “my own back” that will be buying his farm in New Zealand. Helping him along though is his partner Sally Eames who works for Medsource in Ashburton. “She loves farming too and helps me out with the calves in the weekends.”

FARM PURCHASE PLAN • 150ha, milking 570 cows (stocking rate 3.8/ha) – total capital required $8 million. • Equity $4 million, borrow $4 million ($19.05 debt/kg MS). • Overdraft $300,000. • Total facilities with bank $4.3 million (loan to value ratio 54%).

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ASB rural manager Simon Cooney and sharemilker Will Green catch up regularly to test the farm ownership plan.

Aiming for the stars CASH FLOW DETAILS • Income 210,000kg MS x $6.50 (ASB status quo milk price) $1,365,000. • Stock sales $94,000 (or $0.45c/ kg MS). • Total income $1,459,000. • FWE $4.25/kg MS = $892,000 so EBIT is $567,000. • Depreciation (10%) of plant value $200k = $20,000. • Loan and overdraft interest $220,000 (at 5.50%). • Principal repayment (3%) $120,000. • Drawings $70,000, tax $100,000 (28% tax rate), surplus $37,000.

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ASB Rural Manager Simon Cooney says Will’s plan is to have $1/kg MS profit each year, after tax, working as a lower order and then as a herd-owning sharemilker. “Of course, this is sensitive to the milk price but he’s going to do it over seven years so some of those years he will do it easy and other years it will be a challenge,” Simon says. “He keeps a close eye on farm working expenses, fully utilising the pasture curve and limiting bought in feed as much as possible.” “If he can do the $1/kg MS profit then in his current position with Dairy Holdings (DHL), that is $350,000 surplus each year that he can invest.” “His strategy is to use that to buy more cows each year. DHL leases the cows from him, and he receives 8-10% return (46% higher than if he had it on fixed term interest.) “After seven years, including his current equity position, he’ll have around $3.5 million or more.” “I know this is ambitious but as the old saying goes, if you aim for the stars you may

end up on top of the mountain. Will has a plan, he has dedication, commitment and combined with all of that he has outstanding farming skills. I am sure he will succeed.” Simon says 150ha dairy farms with good water in Canterbury were currently selling for $45,000/ha, producing 1400kgMS/ ha (please note this is not a Tier One Mid Canterbury property). “So that’s about $6.75 million and on that he could farm 570 cows at a stocking rate of 3.8ha, so he’d need about another $1 million to buy stock, including young stock, and $200,000 for plant and machinery. “ “There are options like Fonterra’s MyMilk that enable Fonterra shares to be purchased at a later date.” “All up that’s about $8 million and he’s got half of that in equity – so in today’s banking terms he will be bankable, especially with his proven track record.” Simon says Will was fortunate his employers allowed flexibility in their contract and sharemilking agreements as well as stock ownership investment opportunities. “It means he can use it as a springboard to faster growth so he can achieve his goals.”

From left, Snow, Chap and Jack: Sharemilking was never going to pave the way to buying into the family farms.

ONFARM

A blueprint for family farms The Scheres family wish they had bypassed sharemilking and cut straight to equity partnerships. The Putaruru-based dairy farmers told Sheryl Haitana about their smooth transition into succession planning. Photos by Emma McCarthy.

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B Below: ASB rural manager Jaden Verryt with farm owner Jack Scheres: Rural professionals helped the smooth transition into equity partnerships.

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rothers-in-law Paul (Snow) Scheres and Chap Zweins joke about arm wrestling over the family dairy farms, but in reality the blueprint for the succession plan is already settled. Jack and Elizabeth (Tiz) own three farms just out of Putaruru, two are in equity partnerships, one with their son Snow and his wife Claire, and the second with their daughter Ashleigh and son-in-law Chap. Snow and Claire own 55% of Waiohotu Farms Ltd, while Chap and Ashleigh own 53% of Waimakariri Farms Ltd. The home farm, Grangelands, is still 100% owned by Jack and Tiz, which will be able to payout Jack and Tiz’s other daughter Nina, who lives off farm. Jack and Tiz sat down with all the kids when they decided to move to equity partnerships and laid out what was in their wills so it was clear to everyone what would happen. “When we pass away, we still have this entity (the home farm) which Snow will take over, and my daughter will be able to get her share. “I’ve heard of instances where the parents pass away and there is just a shit fight. Hopefully there is no way of that happening.” The kids are the ones driving and growing the business, so it’s appropriate they are now equity partners to build their own wealth and create opportunities, Jack says. “If you leave it (succession) too late the kids

can’t grow their own equity.” Snow and Chap feel fortunate that Jack and Tiz have backed them into an equity partnership and trust them to make the key business decisions going forward. “Dad is really understanding and there is no pressure when you’re making tough calls, he always backs us,” Snow says. Jack and Tiz lent Snow and Claire and Chap and Ashleigh a $1,000,000 interest-free loan to boost their percentage of ownership in the equity partnerships. By backing them, they’ve helped them into a position where they can financially grow and be able to take opportunities, whether that’s buying more shares or borrowing to follow other opportunities, Jack says. Having more skin in the game gives them more motivation to keep the businesses profitable, he says. Snow and Chap can buy more shares at any point or borrow against the entities when financially able. They both earn a wage paid from the entities and get dividends for their shares every profitable year. The idea to switch to equity partnerships came from their accountants and lawyers. Chris Spargo from BlackmanSpargo Rural Law and Tony Harris and Callum Passey from Harris & Co pointed out how creating three separate entities for the three farms and bringing Snow and Chap in as equity partners would be the start of a succession plan. Their rural professionals, including their ASB rural manager, were key in setting the structure up and making it an easy transition, Jack says. Snow and Chap were both sharemilking on their respective farms until they shifted to the equity structure last season. The sharemilking arrangement was proving too difficult financially for them to get ahead. “There was too much advantage to the farm owner on a System 5 farm, so our accountant and lawyer came up with this scenario,” Jack says. “With sharemilking Snow and I were going backwards,” Chap says. “The maize bills would kill us, we didn’t have the cash flow. But now the entities can cover that.” There is risk with sharemilking when it comes to cash flow and having assets tied up just in stock, and a lot of it can come down to timing. Snow bought cows when there was a

record payout, whereas Chap had better timing and bought them at record low prices. “If we had our time again we would ditch sharemilking. I bought the cows on a high at $8 milk price, the following year it was $4,” Snow says. Snow had to work hard to get himself out of the hole just in time to borrow again to go into the equity partnership.

KEEPING IT SIMPLE

The three separate entities keep it simple. Snow and Chap get to run their own farms, so there is no stepping on each other’s toes on a day-to-day basis. Snow also runs the home farm and Chap oversees the 100-hectare runoff. They work together on the overall farming business, share machinery and have a

‘I’ve heard of instances where the parents pass away and there is just a shit fight. Hopefully there is no way of that happening.’ floating staff member between the farms. “We bounce ideas off each other. The farms are doing pretty much the same thing so we can iron out practices together,” Chap says. “We get on really well. If we were not enjoying it (working together) we wouldn’t be growing,” Snow says. They all use nutritionist Andrew Robarts from JMR Advisory Services. The farms are all undulating, with plenty of steep hills so the use of maize is key, but with their runoff they no longer have to buy in maize.

They used to grow some maize and buy in the balance, but have since bought a maize chopper, together with Jack and Jack’s two brothers who also farm locally. Between the seven farms they grow 250ha of maize, which justified them buying their own chopper. Chap, a former agricultural contractor, organises the maize business. Jack started his progression in the dairy industry in partnership with his two brothers. The trio grew their wealth together, but when their kids started getting older and going farming it became too complicated.

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FARM FACTS: Grangelands owners: 100% Jack & Elizabeth Scheres • Area: 140ha (135ha effective) • Runoff: 100ha shared with Waimakariri for young stock and maize • Cows: 500 Friesians • Production: 330,000kg MS • Operation: System 5, 80% autumn calving, 44-bail internal rotary, 700-cow covered feedpad, Allflex collars, protrack Waimakariri Land Ltd: Chap & Ashleigh Zweins 52%

“We owned several farms together, but it became too difficult to look after our own children. So my brothers bought me out, and they’ve since separated their assets as their children have started coming back to the farms too.” Jack’s brother Peter had set similar succession plans with his sons a year earlier.

EPS ARE THE ONLY WAY FORWARD

Left: Snow, Jack, Chap and Jaden: The kids are the ones driving the business so they should have the chance to build their equity.

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Equity partnerships in reality are the only way forward for farm succession, Tony Harris from Harris & Co Chartered Accountants says. Gone are the days when sharemilkers could sell their young stock to pay for the deposit on their first 60ha farm. “With the value of land and assets now, we think this is the future. It works very well and not just for family.” Farm owners are able to help their children into the farm business by gifting some of their equity. “One of the reasons this works is that as you get older and more established you can afford to give away equity, but not cash flow.” When the EP is first set up farmers can give their kids a helping hand. If the kids want to increase their shares after that they then have to pay market value and raise capital themselves. The key with any EP is having a good exit clause, and that is no different for family, he says.

• Area: 120ha + 67ha Maori lease (150ha milking platform) • Cows: 510 Friesians • Production: 327,000kg MS • Operation: System 5, 50-bail external rotary, 550-cow covered feed pad, protrack, Allflex collars, 80% autumn calving Waiohotu Farms Ltd: Paul (Snow) & Claire Scheres 55% • Area: 190ha + 65ha Maori lease (140ha milking platform) • Cows: 420 Friesians and youngstock • Production: 210,000kg MS • Operation: System 5, spring calving, 44-bail internal rotary, in-shed feeding, protrack, Allflex collars

“If you know the rules to get in, and the rules to get out, there is no misunderstanding.” When it comes to succession the main goal is to preserve the relationships at the end of the day, he says. “There is an obligation to all of the children, whether they are on the farm or not. The key is you don’t want to break up any Christmas dinners.”