spatial depiction of foreground, middle, and background) in
from New York, to Alabama to photograph cotton produc-
many of the photographs. The black hole disallows an easy
tion, and he might have given the person a shot list of what
reading. It disturbs and intercedes, but never in the same
to look for, as well as a government report on cotton pro-
way. Sometimes it becomes largely a graphic element, while
duction, but you still have somebody displaced in a foreign
in other pictures it takes on an emotional bearing.
environment photographing something they know very
The black hole effectively confounds the photograph’s origi-
little about. So that documentary process is an inherently
nal purpose. Its presence challenges the established tenets of
challenging process to begin with.
the FSA project that can be discerned in the unpunched pho-
I think the photographs in Ground raise questions about
tographs. In becoming the dominant pictorial device in each
how the conditions of 1930’s America might relate to the
photograph, and a poetic one overall within the structure of
situation we face now in the United States. But keep in
the book, it shifts the narrative from documentary to art.
mind, it’s a poetic relationship I’ve established. For me, when grouped together in a specific way, these odd photo-
ANDREA: Did Stryker have any relationship to photog-
graphs, that were never intended to be seen publicly, have a
raphy or art at all?
resonance that relates both to today and the past. The black hole’s tendency to abstract, coupled with the documentary
BILL: No. Not at all. He was not a photographer. He came
nature of the original FSA photographs, places the photo-
from sociology. He was a teaching assistant at Columbia
graphs into a state of ambiguity where they exist neither as
University, and so he had no background in art and no
complete abstractions or documentary images.
background in photography. ANDREA: Are you aware of the hoi polloi that has been ANDREA: So it was easy for him to punch those holes
going around about Steve McCurry?
[laughs]. BILL: I don’t know that much about Steve McCurry, reBILL: [laughs] And that was part of the source of difficulty
ally, but I do know that photography is ceaselessly used
he had with the more established photographers. I spoke
in order to exercise power, and you can see that on a daily
earlier about the difficult relationship he had with Doro-
basis in how Hillary Clinton is being represented, in the
thea Lange, and he had an equally as challenging relation-
choices made as to which photograph to show of her, or
ship with Walker Evans.
Donald Trump or Bernie. Those are political decisions that are made and sometimes they have to do with power.
ANDREA: Do you think the photographers profited from
And the classic case is of the darkening of OJ Simpson’s face
the hard times for people and difficult situations they
on the cover of TIME magazine, I mean wow! That’s an ex-
were photographing? Did anyone question that at the
ercise of editorial power. That’s being used all the time in
time? Or did everybody think of it as documenting as it
terms of how things are edited, and it’s always going to be
was happening?
used that way. It was used that way back in the 30’s and it’s used by me today in the way I organized the Ground book.
BILL: That’s a really interesting question. There was certainly
I’d say that my selection of photographs is non-comprehen-
a motive of propaganda behind the creation of the Farm Secu-
sive and intentionally narrow, and yet, my project is not a
rity Administration photographic position and that was not
documentary project. It is an art book using documentary
lost on the photographers. And yet, I think most of the pho-
photographs, but it is distinctly not a documentary project.
tographers felt like—and I speak based on what I’ve read— they were contributing in a positive way. I know Ben Shahn
ANDREA: How does this project differ from your other
felt that way. Evans didn’t, but he was a really cynical guy,
projects?
always. Dorothea Lange definitely did and yet, documentary photography has always been a really problematic, complex
BILL: It’s actually very similar to much of my other work
undertaking because photography is always political, wheth-
in that I am always interested in the poetic document, in
er one wants it to be or not, and it’s about power relationships.
some relationship between photographs of everyday life
One person has the camera, the other person or subjects do
or of very basic things that are shifted a little bit so that
not. So, there is a disproportionate power relationship inher-
you see things a little differently. You know, one of my
ent in the making of photographs. So it gets complicated.
favorite quotes is by the poet and novelist James Dickey,
Roy Stryker might send a guy from New York, or a woman
who wrote Deliverance: “Poetry occurs when the utmost
Bill McDowell, Opposite: Mr. Tronson, farmer near Wheelock, North Dakota. 1937. Russell Lee. 8a22121 (detail); Following spread: Planting locust root cutting, Natchez Trace Project, Tennessee. 1936. Carl Mydans. 8a01547
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