14 minute read
Da ting Dialogue, Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW
Dating Dialogue
What Would You Do If…
Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW of The Navidaters
Dear I love reading your column, and I’d like to reach out to you Navidaters, with a thought. I am married, thank G-d, for three years and am very happy b”H. I got married when I was 27 years old so I wasn’t a spring chicken when I met my husband. What I’m noticing, though, is that many of my friends who are single seem to be quite critical – unnecessarily – of their dates. For example, they’ll complain that he’s not considerate if he’s a few minutes late to pick them up or say that he’s not thoughtful if he doesn’t open the car door for them.
As a married woman – and I know I’m no expert – I know that these things are not the important things in a spouse. A husband should be kind, caring, considerate, thoughtful, sensitive to your needs, understanding, helpful, responsible – I can go on and on. None of these traits, though, are determined by opening or closing car doors. I wish I can shake my single friends and tell them to look out for the important things in life but I feel like they’ll look at me and think that I just don’t “get it.” I do get it – I was in their place only a few years ago and am grateful that I didn’t get hung up on silly minutiae.
I’d love to hear your thoughts,
Charna
Disclaimer: This column is not intended to diagnose or otherwise conclude resolutions to any questions. Our intention is not to offer any definitive conclusions to any particular question, rather offer areas of exploration for the author and reader. Due to the nature of the column receiving only a short snapshot of an issue, without the benefit of an actual discussion, the panel’s role is to offer a range of possibilities. We hope to open up meaningful dialogue and individual exploration.
The Panel
The Rebbetzin
Rebbetzin Faigie Horowitz, M.S.
Charna, I hear you. There are some aspects of chivalrous behavior that get guys unnecessary bad marks on dates. Some women may disqualify men on the basis of these. Keep in mind that these were marks of breeding, thoughtfulness, and decency that have persisted even though dating is much more casual these days. Many couples wear casual clothing and engage in sports and games during their early dates, and dating rituals are more relaxed than they used to be. Nonetheless, there is a sense that certain chivalrous behaviors such as opening the car door are a must.
I agree with you. You are right that these are not necessarily indicators of true thoughtfulness, respect, and kindness, yet their absence can irritate a woman. True thoughtfulness, respect, and the other qualities you mention are easily demonstrable; it takes time and several different shared experiences to notice these qualities. Giving people the benefit of the doubt and taking the time to develop a connection is wise because a meeting of the minds, personalities, and values will open both people up to discern qualities below the surface. It’s hard to detect the strength of positive character traits if you date briefly and your interests, ideas, and aspirations are not explored fully.
I join you in wishing that daters would understand this and focus on getting to know the other person over time. This is an investment in time and effort. Unfortunately, many people rate their dates on scorecards they have developed to see if the person meets “what they are looking for.”
Compatibility, attraction, and connection take two partners. Rating someone else on your criteria is about one person judging the other – it’s not about creating something together, and that’s what a lifelong marriage is all about: a deep relationship based on respect, values, and caring that takes continued effort to sustain, no matter how compatible the two individuals are. By not taking the time and effort to explore the other person fully and being judgmental, men and women shortchange themselves.
It takes a real paradigm shift to achieve a two-sided approach to compatibility and connection. Unfortunately, many people are not ready to let go of their own list of requirements which may be superficial and no longer as relevant in their own stage of growth and development.
The Shadchan
Michelle Mond
Thank you, Charna, for bringing this up. In response, I have two stories to share with our readership.
Story #1)
Steven* was a 32-year-old out-oftown lawyer working in Manhattan, burnt out from the dating scene, but when he heard about Perri Goldberg*, he was instantly excited. She was from out of town but resided just a short train ride away from his apartment in the city. Her description sounded spot on. She sounded like the best match he had been suggested to in months. He instantly gave me a “yes” to relay to this woman, and they exchanged phone numbers and planned a date. As the date would be later in the evening, he decided to take her to a local coffee shop.
With PTSD from his experience with the last girl he was excited about that went sour, he made conscious efforts to make this time better. On that prior date with a girl named Shira*, he had taken her out to eat on a first date. When Steven excitedly called the shadchan to give a “resounding yes” afterwards, he was met with the shock that the girl had given a “resounding no” to a second date. Why, you may ask? Shira was upset at his utter social incompetence that he took her out to eat on a first date. Shocked and horrified was she. “He’s 32!” she began. “Doesn’t he know by now that it is insensitive to take a girl out to eat on a first date? The last thing I want is to chew openmouthed while trying to make small talk. It’s a no from me.” The shadchan described the correspondence to him. That is why Steven decided the date with this new woman would be safer at a nice Starbucks.
After three hours of wonderful discussions and connection, he was very interested to continue. He called to give me lots of positive feedback. When I called the woman, she had another side to the story. “I’m sorry, but I’m just not interested,” Perri said. When I probed further, she hesitantly revealed more. “I had a long day at work, which he must have known from my resume. When he planned the date for 8 p.m., I assumed it would be a dinner date. Obviously. That’s what any mensch would do. But instead he took me out for coffee. The date was a downer as soon as I
realized he hadn’t had the foresight to know he should take me out to dinner. I mean, who doesn’t?”
At this point, I did not yet know Steven’s experience with the previous girl, but even so, I tried explaining to her that everyone has different experiences which shape their decisions. Could she give it another shot? Are we really going to judge him on this one thing? Perri was adamant that it was over and added another comment about how he was wearing outdatedstyle shoes. It just was not going to work. It was only when I called him to break the news that he opened up and
told me his story about the previous girl – how he purposely took Perri to a coffee shop because of being negatively judged by another woman for his audacity for taking her out to dinner.
I tried patching things up with her by explaining the situation but she was strong with her convictions not to give it a second date. This guy has since gotten married; Perri is still single.
Story #2)
Leah’s* mother stopped me in aisle three of the grocery store one day with tears in her eyes. “Please, PLEASE,” she begged. “Think of someone for my Leah!” That night I wracked my brain for three hours straight going through all the ideas I could think of and finally got a yes from a guy named Dov*. The two agreed to go out with each other within a span of a week, and the date was set.
Dov had grown up in New York while she was a real out-of-towner. Unbeknownst to Dov, he completely struck out when he did not open the door for her as she initially entered the car. Additionally, since they already were in touch by text, he texted her when he was outside. I got a call from Leah’s mother about ten minutes after the date was supposed to start.
“I AM SEETHING!” she began. “What kind of boy texts when he is outside? I mean, my daughter texted him that he should come in, so he did. But to not automatically do that? Does he have no manners? Did he have no chinuch? And I watched them get into the car, and he did not even open the car door for her. Seriously, who are you setting my daughter up with?!?”
As I’m sure you can surmise, this date was a one and done, despite this guy driving four and a half hours in to meet her. Her mother could not get over his “audacity”, and I could not get over his mother’s audacity (but that’s another story). After speaking to the boy, he told me in very strong terms that in New York he is so accustomed to women wanting privacy and space, they almost always want him to text when outside. Additionally, they find it stilted and awkward when car doors are open by a guy they never met before. He did not want me to explain anything to this young woman’s mother because, in his words, “If she is so shortsighted and judgmental, I don’t want to have much to do with the family.”
My point in relaying these stories is to drive home the following message. Most people in the dating world do what they do because of the experiences they go through which shape their decisions. Yes, there are reasons to nix a guy, however, just as you have illustrated, there are many who mistake certain conscious decisions and actions for insensitivity. Shira* in my first story was horrified that Steven* took her out for dinner on a first date, while Perri* was horrified that he didn’t. My advice to singles is to be flexible and openminded, but if you see a pattern of behaviors that you simply cannot live with, it is time to say goodbye.
The Single
Rena Friedman
Charna, it’s so hard to stand by and watch people you love do things that you believe are unproductive and self-sabotaging. You are amazing for caring about your friends and wanting to help them with dating.
You say that a husband should be “kind, caring, considerate, thoughtful, sensitive to your needs, understanding, helpful, responsible….” Your friends would agree with you. Through dating, those traits are evaluated based on a person’s actions. What those actions mean seems to be where your friends would disagree with you. It may not bother you if a guy shows up late, but perhaps to a friend it sends the message that the guy does not value or respect her time. That could be an important middah that your friend is looking for.
Let’s call a spade a spade. The second that ring slid on your finger and that sheitel hit your head, your dating advice went from being helpful to annoying and your credibility exponentially diminished in the eyes of your single friends. Your intentions are positive and that is commendable; however, you no longer are single and you do not fully get it.
So what can you actually do? Do not give them unsolicited advice. If a friend calls you for advice about a specific guy, listen attentively, offer your true thoughts, and be very crafty in how you relate any constructive criticism. Always approach the conversation from an open angle, validate what they say, and ask them questions to start a real conversation. For example, if a friend complains that a guy didn’t open the car door, you can ask them: What does it mean for you when a guy opens a door? What is the underlying middah being displayed? Were there other times throughout the date when he exhibited those middos? Express that you have their best interest at heart, and you want to fully understand what their needs are and the best way to look for that in a guy.
To the single friends that Charna is talking about: have a rav or mentor who you discuss dating with. For a relationship to progress, it is vital to have someone who knows the entire journey and can hold you accountable along the way. Read Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough by Lori Gottleib and The Surrendered Single by Laura Doyle. Identify the 3 non-negotiables you need in a husband and only look for those. Write down the list of things your husband will have to accept about you. It is great to remind yourself how YOU are not perfect and that you, too, will bring baggage to the table. The key to a real, healthy relationship is acknowledging those imperfections, expressing what you need, and seeing that person try to improve. Picking on the little things, whatever those may be for you, will only keep this vicious cycle going. It’s scary, but you can do this!
As always, all feedback, thoughts, and ideas are welcome: renafriedman2@gmail.com.
The Zaidy
Dr. Jeffrey Galler
When I first read your letter, I thought, “This girl should be hired to address yeshiva high school girls about what traits are important in a spouse.”
But then, I thought, “No! Wait a minute! A gentleman absolutely should open the car door for his date.” Think about it. Wouldn’t you open the car door, courteously, for someone you respected and was very important to you? For your parents? Or, for your rabbi, or elderly aunt and uncle?
Moreover, wouldn’t you make every effort to be on time? If you were scheduled to meet an important person, and were unavoidably detained, wouldn’t you make sure to apologize so as not to seem inconsiderate?
Now, this goes both ways: a young lady should not keep her date waiting, and, after being seated in the car, she should politely lean over and open the door latch for her date.
There’s a very important adage that should be indelibly engraved in everyone’s mind: you only get one chance to make a first impression. This is especially true on a date, when you’d think that someone would be on their very best behavior.
Gentlemen, always open the door for your date. However, be aware that there are some perfectly fine young ladies out there who might feel that when a man opens a door for them it is not an act of chivalry but is, instead, a manifestation of male chauvinism. If so, she will let you know not to do that in the future, and you should subsequently respect her wishes.
Pulling It All Together
The Navidaters Dating and Relationship Coaches and Therapists
Dear Charna,
A belated mazal tov on your marriage! I think you have a very
Have a question for the panel? They’re here to help you with your dating conundrums. Email your questions for the panelists to Jen at thenavidaters@gmail.com. healthy at t it ude about dating a n d expectations. Sometimes men and women alike can get hung up on the little things that in the long run do not matter. I can’t make a blanket statement, though, about your friends or other women who would like to be with a more classically chivalrous gentleman.
Sometimes, a pattern of not showing up on time or never holding
a door can be indicative of character traits that may make some women uncomfortable.
And sometimes, it means absolutely nothing. If a woman is completely turned off by lateness, then this may be an issue longterm for that particular woman.
If she truly can’t move past that, maybe she should be with a man who values time as she does. With regard to the general concept of “pickiness,” I couldn’t agree with you more. Some people are “picky.” And some simply haven’t met the right one yet. It turns out they weren’t picky after all. (P.S. I see the latter more often than the former.)
I guess I don’t have anything very definitive to contribute to the panel this week other than the following: pickiness is bad. Additionally, what works for one person may not work for another. And we are all entitled to have our priorities.
Once again, mazal tov on your marriage and thank you for writing in!
Sincerely, Jennifer
Jennifer Mann, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and dating and relationship coach working with individuals, couples, and families in private practice at 123 Maple Avenue in Cedarhurst, NY. She also teaches a psychology course at Touro College. To set up a consultation or to ask questions, please call 516-224-7779, ext. 2. Visit www.thenavidaters.com for more information. If you would like to submit a dating or relationship question to the panel anonymously, please email thenavidaters@gmail.com. You can follow The Navidaters on FB and Instagram for dating and relationship advice.
