ut the mosl devastating scenes I saw were at the children's hospital, a short distance away. A most amazing scene for me and another image of that night was, as we- approached, there was tremendous applause. There were thousands of people (who) started applauding outside the hospital. I looked around and I said "\Arho are they applauding?" They were applauding us! They were saying, 'You're here, tell the story, get the story out. Come here..." They wanted to show us what was going on in the hospital. I often wondered after that, if we in the media, you
know, keep these things going perhaps longer than they might otherwise. I mean "do we give people false hopes" is a question that I always raise in these situations. Nevertheless, the scene was totally chaotic inside the children's hospital. I was unable to get to the morgue. I was told that there were hundreds of bodies and by this time we're talking well after midnight -in the morgue. Many friends of mine have interviewed (philosophy) Professor Ding Zilin (Beijing's People's University) - well, her son (fiang Jelian) had been taken to this hospital. He had been killed along the
road. Of course I didn't know that at that time, but there was this mixture of chaos the hospital authorities began to change around one or two in the morning and they started to try to kick us out. We were armed with little walkie-talkies and were trying to broadcast reports back to the States. At one point we got a report from the Chinese Red Cross and I broadcast that night quoting "that 2,600 people had been killed". The next day that report was withdrawn by the Chinese Red Cross. Sandy was telling me earlier that her editors
in New York were quoting my report and asking if she could confirm the figure and I hasten to add that I was - Red Cross. From my personal quoting the Chinese observation in the hospitals, I could not count more than 30 or so people, that I could see with my own eyes, that were dead. I don't know.. I don't think that we know for sure, any of us, what the true figures are. All I can say is that for all of us, it was the emotional night as a reporter. And as we look back upon it, all I can say is that we hope eventually that we will learn the truth about all of these things. Thank you.
Edward Gargan
(Nru
York Times):
l-tim**
veniently forgotten,
that some of
wrrst...
I wan I if I I .rro, I.r"fru,
bit different as talked in terms about rather than
perhaps recapitulate my own, what I saw, supplementing what Sandy saw, andJonathan andJim, maĂže I could talk a little bit about what does Tiananmen mean, and
what has happened since Tiananmen, and
why
Tiananmen is important. I go to China quite a bit and I don't have minders when I go. I just go out and talk to people. It seems to I'm sure many of you go to China as well me that and I am-sure much of what I have to say is a bit repetitive or a bit obvious. To me one of the things which is abundantly clear is, in the ten years since the massacre and I think the important thing is to use the word -massacre which T\{B does not use to its great shame. In myjudgement, since the massacre the communist party has lost an immense amount of its power and you can see this ever;rvhere in China; in every city, in every town to whom ever you talk to. It continues to lose its power and it continues to lose its authority and power over people's lives and their thoughts, and one of the obvious reasons that this has happened, in addition to Tiananmen I think, is that the economy has changed in the most dramatic ways imaginable. People have freedom to work where they want, to Iive where they want, to travel where they want. You get in a cab you can talk about any subject. The most in Beijing these days are cab drivers. If political people you talk to a cab driver in Beijing, I've yet to hear one of them say the government is worth anything. From Li they think they are all Peng on down. Jiang Zemin corrupt; they think they are-useless; and the sooner they are gone the better. And they say this quite openly without any fear of retribution. The problem is not getting cab drivers to talk about what they think of the leadership, it's getting them to shut up. Having heard this many times, I often struggle to do that. I think that there is also and I think it is surpris- go to China so frequenting to some people who don't ly lhere is an enormously wide exchange of views - in universities (and) to some extent publications. both I think that the climate has changed dramatically and this is one of the consequences of Tiananmen, either
intended or not.
the
events she described
around Tiananmen Gate involving me, are not qulte accurate. She and Robert (Delfs) had made an
16
ironclad promise to meet me under the portrait of Mao when the shooting started and. when I arrived under the portrait of Mao, she was gone. And so I felt terribly abandoned I must say, (a) public slap on the
Jung, who spent years and years and years in prison,
is
the President of Korea. Taiwan, which was still struggling with the issue of whether to become a democracy or not, is a full democracy. Everyone is elected in Taiwan. The Philippines is now a completely they've democratic country with a strong democracy elected a guy that some people think perhaps should not have been elected, not the least because he's a
terrible actor, but of course the United States had a terrible actor as a President so why should the Philippines be barred from that privilege. who would have ou look at Indonesia today - have been topimagined that Suharto would pled by student protests? Who could have imagined that? I remember, we talking we r e l.t ' about this before. tlft. ' Some of you may ÂĄO work for the big investment banks here _ I remember in }./.ay 1997,
just before
should remember what has happened in Asia in the last ten years. Democracy has flourished here. Kim Dae rHE CORRESPONDENT JUNE4ULY
I
999
in fact cable television and- the his great chagrin internet are opening up China and are ultimately going to destroy authoritarianism, because much of what the people in China know today, they know from television. hey know now in a small way from the Internet, because not that much of a percentage of the population is connected to the Internet. But
information and knowledge is spreading in o
..
.t '.
'-t
ll
a. t
a a
e"
the
China despite the efforts of the
tnongnanhai clique to control the information the people
have
to. I think that we all know that if we go to
access
we
read the newspapers, that the newspapers are controlled and conformist, but tkrat that can't happen forever... For some reason we all know that
financial collapse,
Morgan Stanley put out awonder-
ful report that said Indonesia: Now More Than Ever. True in a way, yes. Tiananmen Remembered in Hong Kong Authoritarian rule has largely collapsed in Asia and democracy has become firmly embedded. I think that is an enormously important phenomenon in Asia and I think Tiananmen in some ways led to that because people are notwilling to go out and shoot people in the streets. Perhaps even more dramaticallÂĄ look at the world around. Look at what happened to communism in Eastern Europe, in the Soviet lJnion, in (the former) Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria. Remember in East Germany the wall coming down? I mean the most remarkable transformations in ttiese societies, without violence, except in Rumania of course, where (they) tried to prevent the overthrow of Ceausescu. In South Africa Nelson Mandela was elected and today Thabo Mbeki was elected as the second President of South
hese are great changes that have occurred and
I i $ I $ 5
China and
Handover and just before the
Africa.
ut I think that there are other consequences of Tiananmen, things that have occurred in the wake of Tiananmen that are equally important both in Asia and the rest of the world. One
are very much out of step with what is going on in the world. Nevertheless, it seems to me that in China there is a tremendous amount that has to be done. If I can quoteJim Laurie's new boss, or at least paraphrase him, to in a famous comment that Rupert Murdoch said
it
CNN needs maintenance in Beijing today and for the next week or so. I didn't realise that cable television coming down from satellite needed maintenance in June, but I'm not in television so perhaps Jim can explain that... But to me this reflects avery interesting thing, it reflects the fundamental weakness in the communist party in Beljing. They feel that they have to control the flow of perhaps no greater indication of the information
weakness and insecurity of the communist party are the
six policemen who are standing outside the apartment of Ding Zilin today, the woman and her husband whose ... (son)... $iangJielian)... Jim referred to was killed
during the massacre in Tiananmen. These are old retired professors and they have six policemen guarding them. So I think that while these are terrible things for them to be guarded, I think that ultimately it reflects the insecurity and ultimate fragility of the communlst party.
seems to me that in the wake of Tiananmen,
In the long run I think that the legacy at Tiananmen
democracy has become embedded frrmly in the world and in Asia. Demonstrating it seems to me, that that political leaders who live in Zhongnanhai
will be a more democratic China and a less corrupt China and a place where people will actually want to
THE CORRESPONDENT JUNE/JULY 1 999
live. Thank you.
I
I7