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Do you think the Robben Island experience and the collectivism and volunteerism shaped the post-’94 period, in terms of reconciliation and so on? It certainly contributed to it. The policy of the ANC was through the struggle – the political struggle, the underground work, the armed struggle, the pressure of the international community – to force the other side to the negotiating table. We never envisaged a military victory. We couldn’t have won on the battlefield. So Madiba – in line with ANC policy – forced the enemy to the negotiating table. When he was alone [in Victor Verster prison, from 1988 to his release in1990] he started talking to the other side. That was very bold of him. But he made it clear: “I am a prisoner, I don’t negotiate, I haven’t got the power to negotiate. I want you, the government, to talk to the ANC. Release all political prisoners, un-ban all the organisations – not only the ANC, all of them, and allow all the exiles to come back, then let us talk.” First, some of the old and sickly prisoners got released. Then eight of us, including Walter, got released in 1989, and he came out four months later. Then the talks started. It was a difficult time because it wasn’t only the ANC and the government. There were many other organisations too. So there were ups and downs. Then there was the Bisho massacre [in 1992] and negotiations broke down for a while. That was a very tricky period, but we survived it.
cause people voted from the branch to province and there was the national list, and out of the three or four hundred people, I was number seven on the list. The newspapers started making this thing that the first 10 people will be cabinet ministers. I wasn’t interested in being on the cabinet. I then sent a message with Walter that if my name comes up – I’m not interested, I don’t want to be in the cabinet. The message didn’t reach him. So when he announces the first cabinet – there I am, the minister of prisons. I didn’t want it, so fortunately for me, there was someone else that agreed to be in the cabinet. They needed a place, and it suited me, it suited the ANC also. But after that they had this position for me to be in his office.
What about his time as president? When he became president I was in his office as an advisor. But he had expressed reluctance to be president, because of his age. When the ANC national executive insisted that he was the candidate, he accepted. But he was adamant that he would only stand for one term. He even told the media. Howdidyoufindbeingingovernment? I didn’t like it one bit! In fact what happened was that when [Mandela] became president – or just before that rather, what had happened is that there was the ANC list – it was in order, beTHE AFRICA REPORT
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C O M M E M O R AT I V E E D I T I O N
While we will not forget the brutality of apartheid, we will not want Robben Island to be a monument of our hardship and suffering. We would want it to be a triumph of the human spirit against the forces of evil. A triumph of wisdom and largeness of spirit against small minds and pettiness; a triumph of courage and determination over human frailty and weakness; a triumph of the new South Africa over the old Ahmed Kathrada •
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And after the presidency, were you in contact? Did you see a lot of each other? Very much! Even when he got sick, I used to go there. I still have free access to him, but I don’t go because he needs to rest. Before he got sick I saw him regularly, and he enjoyed it because he liked to talk about the past, about people, and we could tease each other. There was no agenda, we’d just start talking. And it was very seldom about politics! Finally, Mr Kathrada, what do you think will be Madiba’s lasting legacy? There’s so much. For example, when he became president he gave a third of his salary to the Nelson Mandela Children’s Fund. Everybody’s fond of children, but he showed it in practice. His life-long commitment to the cause of a non-racial, non-sexist, democratic South Africa, that is not negotiable. But the main legacy is what he said. “We have achieved quite a bit, but there’s a lot to be done. We can only be satisfied when we are sure that every child goes to bed with a full stomach, in a proper house, gets up in the morning smiling with a proper breakfast, proper clothing, goes to school, comes back and they’ve got all the facilities for sports and all the facilities for good health and all that. When that happens, then we can say we have achieved, we are satisfied.” ● Interview by Crystal Orderson in Johannesburg
STEPHANE DE SAKUTIN/AFP
they couldn’t drive us to do anything! So once we had spent 13 years there in the quarry, it wasn’t so difficult afterwards.