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First of all there in not just one black. There are millions of data states. The dark phase is therefore a necessity, but also a reflexion. Just like when one paints or cre­ ates vanities. The black phase is unavoidable. I believe we are in fact uncondition­ al optimists. It's all there in the phrase you quoted: Donum Dei, "Be happy".

that when we create, we can ask the questions without having the answers. And regarding the world of economics, of industrial rela­ tions etc., when I create a work, I elicit all different kinds of ques­ tions, but I don't have the capac­ ity to answer them. It's not even a part of the postulate. The work posits a number of questions, but each one of us has to find the an­ swers individually.

Parution dans la presse Published in the press

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Pochette du DVD "999" Le film et la pochette sont un hommage à Andreï Tarkovski et à son film "Stalker" The "999" DVD cover The film and the DVD cover are a tribute to Andrei Tarkovsky and his film "Stalker"

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L.C. - Why this need, this necessity for a "mutation"?

ample, for me, September 11, 2001 was a blessed event. I am not going to be drawn into a discussion of the 3000 Americans killed on that T.E. - In biology, mutations are constant. The evolution of the spe­ day; I respect their deaths. I say quite simply that nine eleven was cies can only go in that direction. the start of the major now cycle in If we look at the planet's histo­ ry, we see that mutations are part History. The worst thing we have of a natural adaptation. In all eco­ had to put up with over the last 25 years is Francis Fukuyama declar­ nomic models, liberal or other­ ing the "End of History". If that wise, mutation plays a key role. isn't dystopia… I don't know what I love rats because they are mu­ is…I mean that is really atrocious tants. Mutation is the survival and inhuman … the end of histo­ of the species. Its DNA…a sort of continual growth You have to sur­ ry! "I, Japanese historian, natu­ vive and adapt, and that's what al­ ralised American, declare the end lows us to look forward to a better of history" - just before the Berlin Wall was destroyed. That's gross. future. And so for me September 11, not­ Strangely enough, you were talk­ withstanding the victims, who I ing only last night about dysto­ pias, as opposed to utopias. That's respect most sincerely, represents above all a major 'comeback' of a very interesting theme. A real history. Whatever interpretation subject. Today's younger genera­ schemas you apply, history is inso­ tion is completely dystopic. They lent. Nine eleven was the ultimate hear - look, not only you must work of art in the formal sense of evacuate, throw up your utopias. It's history already written. For ex­ the word and it represented the

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dice of history being thrown once again. It was the Deus ex-machi­ na intervening again and History re-opening to an era in which ev­ erything is possible. It is also the grand return of chaos, in the meaning of proteiform original matter, themateria prima, this matter from which all animate and inanimate things came from. This primal soup from which ev­ erything is born, long before the creative act. In my view, we in the West should have all had the wis­ dom to see ourselves in the ruins of nine eleven. L.Z. - That's right. Its not that a mutation is even "necessary". It is simply happening. The world is changing. The world changed on September 11, 2001. Humanity changed radically in so many dif­ ferent ways… some of which even question our status as human be­ ings. The question is more "what kind of mutation" rather than

✔ Cochez la bonne case… trouvez la bonne réponse en retournant le magazine Catalogue d’exposition 2013 (148 pages couleur) disponible gratuitement au Musée et en pdf sur | La Demeure du Chaos - Musée l’Organe - St-Romain-au-Mont d’Or | Entrée libre et gratuite, les week-ends et jours fériés | Venez visiter l’exposition “30 ans de sculptures de thierry Ehrmann”. Découvrez les 4 509 œuvres formant le corpus de la Demeure du Chaos dont 3 600 fresques, portraits, gravures ainsi que 900 sculptures. Vous aviez trouvé ? Bravo ! Il y a en effet 144 801 signataires de la pétition pour préserver la Demeure du Chaos (Source Requête introductive avec B.C.P. / Cour Européenne des Droits de l’Homme 2012), 9 276 adhérents UMP du Rhône inscrits à l’élection à la présidence du parti , 3 171 adhérents PS inscrits à l’élection du secrétaire fédéral et des secrétaires de section du 15 novembre 2012, 18 000 abonnés à l’Olympique Lyonnais en 2011 (source et 88 129 abonnés postaux et portés à domicile au journal “Le Progrès” (Source P.V. 2011 OJD).

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❏ sont adhérentes UMP dans le Rhône ❏ sont adhérentes à la fédération PS du Rhône ❏ sont abonnées à l’Olympique Lyonnais ❏ sont abonnées au journal “Le Progrès” ❏ sont signataires de la pétition pour préserver la Demeure du Chaos

even before a law has been adopt­ ed... the executive power acting alone... We get continually insult­ ed with every imaginable name. We are borderline in the legal sense of the word, not just in the L.C. - Do you think there has been an psychiatric sense. Whereas in re­ ality, the rule of law is foregone in acceleration of History and that we are today at some kind of major turn- an attempt to tag future genera­ tions. An American ordinance of ing point? the Patriot Act includes a package T.E. - Yes, totally and utterly. I am of provisions which contravene the Geneva Conventions, giving going to allow myself to quote an extra-territorial authorisation expression that Lukas uses as the to all forms of intervention and name of one of his performanc­ es: Hacking The Future. Our Group which will, for example, ultimate­ ly use humans (as of September 1, also has scientists. I describe the Group as being a kind of Bismarck 2009) with traceability of all chil­ dren born in North America. I do Empire, a double-headed eagle, not see why we shouldn't modify with a dichotomy that we man­ our flesh, our bodies and reflect on age well. We were recently look­ ing at the specifications of the new these mutations. That's also what Social Security Card that will take interests me with Lukas... his work on the body. the form of an RFID (Radio fre­ Ultimately, the body is the inti­ quency Identification) injected mate tabernacle of our lives on into the body. What is incredible Earth. Today the body belongs to is that we adopt these mutations "should there be a mutation". In any case … a change is gon­ na come. A page has been turned. We have finally arrived in the 21st century.


Photo : Bunker de la Demeure du Chaos Sculpture monumentale, Acier brut (11 x 11 x 5,50 m / 90 tonnes) Œuvre collective créée pour la triennale La Force de L’Art (Paris) par M. Briand et thierry Ehrmann.

bureaucrats, both in Europe and in North America, and therefore to doctors, clerics and the State. And our body is our first appropri­ ation. Lukas does interesting work on the body because the art mi­ lieu does not go beyond the work of the French artist Orlan, who represents their token in this re­ spect. The art milieu is frigid, ter­ ribly frigid. And so it buys tokens, like Keith Haring's or Basquiat's street art. The art milieu has Orlan ...and after Orlan, we are consid­ ered as a band of ambient psycho­ paths. I can do whatever I like with my body. I can implant whatever I like. I can decide to give it away, to open it and to disembowel it in full awareness of my actions. L.C. - Seen from outside, there is a lot of blackness in this kind of activity. I am thinking particularly of the phrase that is inscribed all over the Abode of Chaos: "When you see the blackness, be happy because you will

422 423

see the beginning of the work". Is this the idea of a first stage that must necessarily involve something obscure and dark? Is the objective to expell the darkness and advance towards the light? T.E. In alchemy, there is black­ ening, reddening and whitening. Blackening (nigredo) is cremation. Reddening (rubedo) is what hap­ pens after the putrefaction. And whitening (albedo) is the return of the ether phase. I believe that in any phase, you first need to con­ sume the embers. You must have the ruins. It's on the ruins that a better future can be built. Its the city of Dresden to which every­ thing is tied. The ruins of Beirut. It's Sarajevo. In a significant area of the world, black is also the sym­ bol of life and not of mourning. In printing, black is the superposi­ tion of all colours. In electronics, black is molecular emptiness. And black is also supreme elegance.

L.C. - There is, nevertheless, an element of provocation that is both intended and without apology… T.E. - Yes, but I would say that I am closer to Marcel Duchamp's logic has a very simple postulate: A work of art that does not pose questions is not a work of art. So, more than provocation, what we do is ask questions through our works. A slightly violent 'finger up the bum'. Provocation leads to questions without any concession. What is fabulous for us artists is

L.Z. - Besides, look at the provoca­ tion in the punk movement; that was designed to provoke a reac­ tion…

L.C. - Yes, I know. I ask questions pretending to be an idiot, but I know the answers fairly well. (laughs) T.E. - As regards the punk move­ ment, I think we are currently ex­ periencing its grand revival... its renaissance. In the sense of the

primary movement, the original "native" movement. L.C. - In fact, our world is an embodiment of the phantasms of the first wave of the punk movement… T.E. - Absolutely. The punk move­ ment has never been so relevant as it is today. The punks cried "No Future" in the 1970's... but today we are really facing No Future. The punk movement was a revelation for each of us. Obviously I was dis­ gusted by the post-punk recycling we have had for decades. But to­ day we have got back to something pure and hard. L.C. - "Information wants to be free", is a slogan used by hackers. But also by Lucifer, the bringer of light punished for having wanted to give knowledge to men. It is also the message that Christ wanted to communicate. What, in your opinion, scares people about information? What are


Opus IX: Abode of Chaos / La Demeure du Chaos 1999-2013  

thierry Ehrmann: we put all our passion and folly into preparing this French-English Collector, the book of the decade: 504 pages / 4.5 kg /...

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