COMFORT Magazine i.03

MULHOLLANDDISTILLING.com

&UHDWLYH (GLWRULDO 'LUHFWRU <8'2 .85,7$

(GLWRU LQ &KHLI 52%(57 /H%/$1&

$VVRFLDWH (GLWRUV 025,$1 7+20$6 1,&+2/$6 $0$72

)DVKLRQ (GLWRU 6+$2-81 &+(1

ZZZ &20)2570$*$=,1( ZRUOG

&20)257 LV DQG DOZD\V ZLOO EH IUHH

ĸ7KH H[SDQVLRQ RI FXOWXUDO SURGXFWLRQ IDU VXU SDVVHV WKH H[SDQVLRQ RI PDWHULDO SURGXFWLRQ IURP ZKLFK WUDIILF MDPV HQVXH LQ WKH FXOWXUDO GR PDLQ EXW DUH HYHQ PRUH PRQVWURXV WKHQ WKRVH H[SHULHQFHG LQ WKH HFRQRP\ RU RQ WKH URDGV )RU LQ WKH RSHQ ILHOG RI FRPPXQLFDWLRQ DQ\RQH FDQ SURGXFH JHVWXUHV WH[WV FRORUV VLJQV DQG PHDQLQJV VSRQWDQHRXVO\ DQG LQGHILQLWHO\ LQ D NLQG RI XQLQWHUUXSWHG WUDQVLW $Q\RQH FDQ VWDJH KLV RU KHU RZQ SHUIRUPDQFH 8QIRUWXQDWHO\ IDFHG ZLWK WKH WRWDO LQGLIIHUHQFH RI WKH RWKHUV EXW ZLWK RQO\ WKHLU VXSHUILFLDO FRQVHQW +RZ FRXOG WKHVH FRXQWOHVV SURGXFWLRQ DOO EH WDNHQ RQ ERDUG" ,I WR D FHUWDLQ H[WHQW ZH KDYH PDQDJHG WR ZDUG RII HFRQRPLF FULVLV E\ RSHQLQJ FXOWXU DO PDUNHWV ZKR ZLOO VDYH XV IURP FXOWXUDO RYHU SURGXFWLRQ ZKHQ WKLV PDUNHW LQ LWĶV WHUP LV VDWXUDWHG" 3HUKDSV ZH ZLOO KDYH WR XQGHU WDNH D PDVVLYH GHVWUXFWLRQ RI FXOWXUDO YDO

:KDW WR

LI

LQIRUPDWLRQ

UHIHUUHG

WKH

SURPRWLRQ

RI

XHV WR VDYH WKH VLJQ YDOXH WKH FXOWXUH YDOXH $OUHDG\ PRVW QRQ PDWHULDO JRRGV DUH PHHWLQJ WKH VDPH IDWH DV PDWHULDO JRRGV IRUFHG SURGXF WLRQ IRUFHG DGYHUWLVLQJ DFFHOHUDWHG UHF\FOLQJ EXLOW LQ REVROHVFHQFH $UW EHFRPH HSKHPHUDO QRW VR DV WR H[SUHVV WKH HSKHPHUDO QDWXUH RI OLIH EXW WR DGDSW WR WKH WDQJHQFH RI WKH PDUNHW ľ ,Q IDFW FXOWXUH KDV EHFRPH D NLQG RI XQGLI IHUHQWLDWHG XQLYHUVDO LQ WR ZKLFK HYHU\WKLQJ FDQ EH LQFRUSRUDWHG LQWR VHSDUDWH HOHPHQWV IUDFWLRQDWHG GLVVHPLQDWHG DQG FRQVXPHG DV TXLFNO\ DV WKH\ DUH SURGXFHG 7KRXJK WKH FRQVXPSWLRQ RI FXOWXUDO JRRGV LV RQO\ UH PRWHO\ UHODWHG WR WKH VLQJXODULW\ RI FXOWXUH :H DUH WKHUH IRU IRUFHG WR DVN WKH TXHVWLRQ

QRW

WR

LQIRUPDWLRQ

DQ

LWVHOI

HYHQW DV

EXW

HYHQW"

:KDW LI FRPPXQLFDWLRQ QR ORQJHU UHIHUUHG WR D PHVVDJH EXW WR WKH SURPRWLRQ RI FRPPXQLFDWLRQ DV HYHQW DQG DV PHVVDJH" DQG ODVW EXW QRW OHDVW :KDW LI FXOWXUH LWVHOI UHIHUUHG QRW WR WKH ZRUOG RI VHQVHV RU LPDJ LQDWLRQ EXW WR WKH SURPRWLRQ RI FXOWXUH LWVHOI DV HYHQW RU SVHXGR HYHQW" ,Q WKH JOREDOL]DWLRQ RI H[FKDQJH FXOWXUH EHFRPHV DQRWKHU IHWLVK SURGXFW Ĺ

)5$1&2

ĸ%,)2Ĺ

%(5$5',

3(7(5 1$',$

/((

687+(5/$1' &2+(1

KHOOR

P\

&2//2%2+ LQ

LQVRPQLD QDPH

VDDQD

FRQYHUVDWLRQ

ZLWK

LV

VDKH

3238/$5

)5217

VXUSOXV

E\

$-

:,/621

9,9,$1

0$.

VRIW

FLUFOHV

UHVLOLDQFH

W

E\

125,

SRUWIROLR

$/(;

FHOOV

LQWHUOLQNHG

WKH

UHYHUVDO

LQ

$1*(/

E\

<8'2

.85,7$

&$0(521

0256(

+2//(5

FRQYHUVDWLRQ

(00216

E\

&$567(1

5$60866(1 0$57,1(=

ZLWK

&$6752

FORFNV $1'5($

:,/.,1

WR

HDUWK

GRZQ

SRUWIROLR

%2%%<

(6&2%('2

LQ

FRYHUVDWLRQ

ZLWK

'$1,(/

$/%5,*2

LQ

FRYHUVDWLRQ

ZLWK

-$6$<$

1($/(

LQ

FRQYHUVDWLRQ

ZLWK

0,&+$(/

%$/$

)5$1.

2&.(1)(//6 LQ

LPSXOVH $1*(/$

WLQ

WKRXJKWV

FRQYHUVDWLRQ

OOO

LQ

RQ

IDFHV

ZLWK

.81,1

E\

+86+

ZH

KHJHPRQ\

52%(57

/H%/$1&

KRZ

OL]DUGV

E\

FRQYHUVDWLRQ

ZLWK SRUWIROLR

VNXOOV

%/$.(

SXUFKHVDV 1*8<(1

KHDGV

3(1

3,;(/ %22*,(

&0 L

P t r Suth rland

INSOMNIA

&0 L

NADIA LEE CO

A OHEN ZULWWHQ E\ 0DUD 9HLWFK DOO LPDJHV FXUWRVH\ RI 1/& -HIIHU\ 'HLWFK *DOOHU\

Nadia Lee Cohen is tired. It has been just over a year since she released her latest monograph, Hello My Name Is… a masterwork in worldbuilding that saw the British-born conceptualist transform 33 nametags ¿VKHG IURP ÀHD PDUNHWV DQG HVWDWH VDOHV LQWR OLYLQJ EUHDWKLQJ FKDUDFWHUV 7KH SURMHFW ZKLFK HYROYHG LQWR /HH &RKHQ¶V ¿UVW 8 6 VROR H[KLELWLRQ ZLWK -HIIUH\ 'HLWFK LQ /RV $QJHOHV D IHZ PRQWKV ODWHU IHDWXUHV D SRUtrait of each character (rather, a “self-portrait;” the artist has an impressive prosthetics girl), accompanied by a monologue and a snapshot of the objects—coupons, pocket combs, the odd cellophane-wrapped canG\²WKDW PDNH XS WKH GHWULWXV RI D KXPDQ OLIH 7KHUH¶V 7HHQD D KHDYLO\ EURQ]HG 3L]]D +XW HPSOR\HH ZLWK DQ aspirational updo; Morris, a suburban physician with quivering jowls in the throes of a divorce; and Brenda, D EDZG\ 3D\/HVV FDVKLHU ZKR SDVVHV KHU WLPH EHKLQG WKH UHJLVWHU E\ FRXQWLQJ HYHU\ VWLWFK RQ WKH VOHHYH of her polyester blouse. Each character feels shudderingly real, a sign of the empathy and care with which Lee Cohen constructed them. In the time since the project’s release, the multimedia artist has spent her HYHU\ ZDNLQJ PRPHQW WUDQVIRUPLQJ WR ¿W QHZ UROHV²VKRRWLQJ PDJD]LQH FRYHUV DQG GLUHFWLQJ IDVKLRQ FDPpaigns—making the period of quiet introspection that birthed Hello My Name Is… feel like a lifetime ago. “If I GLGQ¶W KDYH WKLV MRE , ZRXOG SUREDEO\ OLYH LQ 3DULV RU /RQGRQ ´ VKH VD\V ³, OLNH FDIH FXOWXUH ÀRZHUV URPDQFH all those pretty things—but they don’t inspire me.” It’s here, in the trashed and sunbleached absurdity of /RV $QJHOHV WKDW /HH &RKHQ IHHOV PRVW DW KRPH DV DQ DUWLVW %HORZ WKH DUWLVW²HYHU RQ WKH JR²SDXVHV WR UHÀHFW RQ KHU NLQJ PDNLQJ SURMHFW DQG WKH FLW\ WKDW LQVSLUHG LW

1$',$ /(( &2+(1 I’m so sorry that I’m driving. $OVR \RX PD\ KHDU SLJ QRLVHV 7KDW¶V P\ IULHQG¶V little dog in the back.

0$5$ 9(,7&+ What have you been doing since the last time we talked?

1/& Oh god, so much. I’m just tired. I feel a deep tired lately, I wonder if it’s medical.

09 It’s been about a year since you released your last monograph, Hello My Name Is…, and D OLWWOH OHVV VLQFH \RXU ELJ VKRZ DW -HIIUH\ 'HLWFK LQ /RV $QJHOHV +RZ KDV \RXU UHODWLRQVKLS ZLWK these characters changed in that time?

1/& , KDYH D IRQGQHVV IRU VSHFL¿F FKDUDFWHUV but I wish that some of them had never been born.

09 Why? 1/& Because I know they could have been betWHU ,W¶V ¿QH , PHDQ WKDW¶V KRZ HYHU\RQH LV %XW I can’t look at my own books, I can’t. But I am proud of certain ones and don’t think I would change anything about them now. But I think about them—they’re a part of me, after all. Even the more frustrating ones.

09 What makes a character feel real to you?

1/& 7KH WKLQJ WKDW PDNHV D UHDO FKDUDFWHU LV D contradiction. You know, like when you see a big WRXJK JX\ ZLWK D OLWWOH GRJ 7KRVH DUH WKH WKLQJV that interest me about people when the way they VQHH]H RU WKH ZD\ WKH\ GHFRUDWH WKHLU KRPH LVQ¶W ZKDW \RX H[SHFW 7KDW¶V ZK\ ,¶P IDVFLQDWHG E\ people’s objects. But of course, some of them do have little quirks and details that I borrowed directly from “real” people. Family members, mostly.

09 What do you think is the biggest contradic-

tion in you?

1/& 7KDW¶V KDUG ,W PXVW EH WKDW , IDLQW DW WKH sight of blood, though I’m not sure what this contradicts besides my deep love of violent cinema.

I had a blood test yesterday, and I had to watch 7KH *RGIDWKHU RQ P\ SKRQH WR VWRS P\VHOI IURP fainting.

09 Which scene?

1/& 7KH RQH ZKHUH 6RQQ\ JHWV JXQQHG GRZQ DW the toll booth.

09 What aspect of this transformation process LV PRVW H[FLWLQJ WR \RX"

1/& I mean, obviously everyone’s interested in good-looking people. But when I’m talking to my SURVWKHWLFV JLUO , JHW UHDOO\ H[FLWHG DERXW OLNH D weird calf vein, or these particular kinds of eyebags that some people have, or the way that somebody enunciates. It’s just those little things about people. But this was also during that pandemic period of, like, nothing. I don’t know if I would have been able to dive so deeply into becoming someone else now.

09 Of the many material components of this project—portrait photography, performance, sculpture, assemblage—I’ve always found the

SRFNHW FRQWHQWV WR EH WKH PRVW PRYLQJ 6RPHhow, those little remnants like candy wrappers, combs, and ticket stubs are what make a person real.

1/& 7KDW ZDV WKH HOHPHQW WKDW , ZDV PRVW H[FLWHG DERXW 7KDW ZDV RQH RI WKH FDOPHVW DQG most contented periods in my life. I was trying to understand who each person was by combLQJ WKURXJK WKH FKDULW\ VKRSV ÀHD PDUNHWV DQG HVWDWH VDOHV KHUH DQG LQ WKH 8. )RU VRPH FKDUDFWHUV , KXQWHG IRU VSHFL¿F REMHFWV OLWWOH LQVLGH MRNHV WKDW , ZDQWHG WKHP WR KDYH $ ORW RI LW LV just lying around my house now, which I know doesn’t sound good. I’m trying to be a minimalist.

09 What are the little objects that represent you?

1/& $TXDSKRU IRU P\ OLSV D OLWWOH VLOYHU SLOO ER[ that my mum got last Christmas, a Versace gift card that I’ll probably never spend, a miniature UXEEHU FKLFNHQ NH\FKDLQ IURP -DSDQ P\ SHW stone “Bonting” from when I was a kid. Red hair dye, various skin creams, wood of some sort— because “touch wood” is the only religion I follow—also a commemorative plate with a photo of the Queen Mother on it, because I collect gauG\ UR\DO PHPRUDELOLD $QG KRWHO VOLSSHUV

09 Would you say that you’re funny?

1/& I mean, I come from a background of dark humor. My brother’s a comic actually, he’s very good. Out of all the people closest to me, he gets my sense of humor the most. I think it’s just bled unconsciously into my personal work. But really I’m just drawn to people who make me laugh and don’t take themselves too seriously. Is this making sense?

WR KLJK VFKRRO LQ (VVH[ , DUULYHG RQ P\ ¿UVW day wearing a really long skirt and big Clarks VKRHV²OLNH WKUHH VL]HV WRR ELJ²WKDW FDPH ZLWK D IUHH ZDWFK , KDG WZR 3ULQFHVV /HLHD EXQV DQG my monobrow was unplucked. When I got there, , ZDV OLNH ³7KLV LV QRW WKH ORRN WKDW HYHU\RQH LV JRLQJ IRU 7KHVH SRSXODU JLUOV KDYH EOHDFKHG KDLU ORQJ QDLOV DQG WKH\¶UH WDQQHG ´ $V VRRQ DV , ¿JXUHG WKDW RXW , EOHDFKHG P\ KDLU SXW RQ ORDGV of tan, and bleached my eyebrows. I think that was my earliest one.

09 Yes. 1/& It’s tricky because I’m not a great talker, and ,¶P QRW D JUHDW VHOOHU RI P\ ZRUN 8VXDOO\ , FDQ kind of hide behind it because it’s so loud.

09 It’s a tough time. I had a single eyebrow for far too long myself.

09 You’ve been described as a shapeshifter.

Would you say that you’re a shapeshifter?

1/& Yes, I am. I look different all the time. I like to transform, it’s all part of the whole dress-up thing I guess. I mean, I’m not a character day-toGD\ 3HRSOH DOZD\V WKLQN ,¶OO HQG XS ORRNLQJ OLNH ,ULV $SIHO ZLWK WKH MHZHOU\ DQG WKH ELJ JODVVHV but I’ll probably end up like my mom—in jeans with long grey hair. I just dyed my hair ginger, and I’m really like that for now.

09 :KDW ZDV \RXU ¿UVW WUDQVIRUPDWLRQ" 1/& , JUHZ XS RQ D IDUP LVRODWHG 7KHQ , ZHQW 1/& I want to see them, but I’m driving so I can’t.

09 What’s something that people often get wrong about you?

1/& Oh, that’s interesting. I always get the same VWXII 3HRSOH DVVXPH WKDW ,¶P OLNH REVHVVHG ZLWK the ‘50s and ‘60s or something, which could not EH IXUWKHU IURP ZKDW ,¶P LQWHUHVWHG LQ 3HRSOH DVsume I have that nostalgia, but it’s more about QDUUDWLYH WR PH WKDQ LW LV DERXW QRVWDOJLD 7KHUH are particular areas that I’m inspired by—art and

the cinema that I’m drawn to. I just don’t really relate to the modern landscape, so that’s why people make this assumption. But for me, it’s more about narrative and less about nostalgia.

09 What is it about the modern landscape that IHHOV OHVV UHODWDEOH" 'RHVQ¶W HYHU\RQH DOZD\V feel that way in their time?

1/& 1R , WKLQN D ORW RI SHRSOH IHHO OLNH ³7KLV LV the time!” But I feel adrift. I think I get it from my PRP +HU KRXVH LV IXOO RI 9LFWRULDQD 09 +RZ ZRXOG \RX GHVFULEH WKH GLIIHUHQFH EHtween your public, creative persona and your private one?

1/& 2K WKH\¶UH FRPSOHWHO\ VHSDUDWH 7KLV LV the constant battle that I live with. If I didn’t have WKLV MRE , ZRXOG SUREDEO\ OLYH LQ 3DULV RU /RQGRQ on a nice busy street, and wander around. I like FDIH FXOWXUH ÀRZHUV URPDQFH DOO WKRVH SUHWW\ things—but they don’t inspire me. I’ve tried to PDNH ZRUN LQ 3DULV EHIRUH DQG LW GRHVQ¶W ZRUN 7KHUH¶V D KXJH GLIIHUHQFH EHWZHHQ WKH ZRUOG WKDW I actually want to live in, that makes me happy, DQG ZKDW LQVSLUHV PH FUHDWLYHO\ )RU PH /$ LV UHDOO\ SHUIHFW IRU PDNLQJ ZRUN 7KHUH¶V VXFK D weird, magical quality to the architecture and the landscape. It’s barren and has all these connotations that I don’t really understand properly— 2QH VHFRQG 7KHUH¶V D ELQ LQ P\ GULYHZD\ 09 7DNH \RXU WLPH 1/& 7KDW¶V EHWWHU WKHVH EORRG\ ELQV :KDW ZDV , VD\LQJ" 2K ULJKW , PDNH P\ EHVW ZRUN LQ /$

&0 L

COLLOBOH

Colloboh (a portmanteau of Collins Oboh) is a Nigerian-born, /RV $QJHOHV EDVHG H[SHULPHQWDO SURGXFHU DQG FRPSRVHU who has spent the past several years cultivating genre-spanQLQJ PRGXODU ZL]DUGU\ $ VHOI WDXJKW V\QWKHVLVW &ROORERK¶V ',< UHFRUGLQJ GLDULHV VWLOO DUFKLYHG RQ ,QVWDJUDP TXLFNO\ amassed a dedicated online following, eventually catching WKH H\H RI /HDYLQJ 5HFRUGV IRXQGHU 0DWWKHZ 'DYLG ZKR ZDVWHG QR WLPH WDSSLQJ WKH WKHQ WZHQW\ VL[ \HDU ROG WR SHUform at the monthly Leaving showcase, Listen to Music Outside In The Daylight Under a Tree. In 2021, Colloboh SHUPDQHQWO\ UHORFDWHG WR /RV $QJHOHV IURP %DOWLPRUH GHGLFDWLQJ KLPVHOI WR PXVLF IXOO WLPH DQG TXLFNO\ EHFRPLQJ D ¿[WXUH RI WKH FLW\¶V YLEUDQW H[SHULPHQWDO VFHQH :KHUHDV &ROORERK¶V GHEXW (3 Entity Relation (released that same year) dove headlong into club beats, Saana Sahel, showcases WKH EUHDGWK RI WKH ÀHGJHOLQJ FRPSRVHU¶V DPELWLRQV 7KH (3¶V WLWOH 6DDQD 6DKHO UHIHUV WR D ODQG RI &ROORERK¶V pure imagining—an untouched utopia spanning lush coastlines and sweeping deserts. Beginning with the stately Acid Sunrise OLNH D 3KLOOLS *ODVV UDYH FRPHGRZQ WKH (3 IXQFtions as an atlas of sorts, mapping the region’s varied enYLURQPHQWV DQG PRRGV $QG YDULHG LQGHHG²DFURVV WKHVH VL[ WUDFNV WKHUH OLH HFVWDWLF MD]] IUHDNRXWV VDPED VKXIÀHV JXHVW YRFDOV IURP VHHPLQJO\ WKH YHU\ 6HUDSKLP DQG LQWHUSRODWLRQV RI 'HEXVV\ DQG *DEULHO )DXUH 7KH EUHDGWK RI sounds conjured here is a testament not only to Colloboh’s HFOHFWLF URVWHU RI LQÀXHQFHV EXW DOVR WKH SHULRG RI GHHS and challenging personal growth that immediately precedHG WKH (3¶V FRPSRVLWLRQ 7KH FRQVWUXFWLRQ RI Saana Sahel (both the imagined locale and the release) served as a spiritual lode star, a place to which Colloboh could retreat for energetic restoration. Ever-generous, Colloboh has charted WKHVH H[SHGLWLRQV IRU XV LQ VRQJ DQG QRZ ZH PD\ DOO GUDZ sustenance and inspiration from the wellsprings of this rich land.

7KH IROORZLQJ LPDJHV DQG WH[W DUH D FDWDORJ RI &ROORERK¶V process building up to the release of Sanna Sahel in May of 2023.

&0 L

POPULAR

FRONT

ZULWWHQ E\ 5LOHV .LOH\ DOO LPDJHV FXUWRVH\ RI 3RSXODU )URQW

-DNH +DQUDKDQ LV D MRXUQDOLVW GRFXPHQWDU\ ¿OPPDNHU DQG WKH IRXQGHU RI 3RSXODU )URQW WKH IDVWHVW JURZLQJ ZDU DQG FRQÀLFW QHZV LQ WKH ZRUOG +DQUDKDQ KDV EHHQ UHSRUWLQJ RQ ZDU DQG FRQÀLFW IRU QHDUO\ D GHFDGH $V D FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVW KH¶V UHSRUWHG RQ WKH JURXQG IURP FRQÀLFWV LQ 6\ULD 3DOHVWLQH 1RUWKHUQ ,UHODQG *UHHFH 7XUNH\ )UDQFH 8NUDLQH 1DJRUQR .DUDEDNK $UWVDNK +RQJ .RQJ DQG HOVHZKHUH +H¶V ZRUNHG ZLWK UHSXWDEOH RXWOHWV VXFK DV +%2 9LFH 1HZV :LUHG 7KH *XDUGLDQ 3UR3XEOLFD DQG PRUH ,Q KH ZDV DUUHVWHG DQG VHQW WR D PD[LPXP VHFXULW\ SULVRQ ZKLOH UHSRUWLQJ RQ WKH \RXWK ZLQJ RI .XUGLVWDQ :RUNHU¶V 3DUW\ 3.. UHEHOV LQ VRXWK HDVWHUQ 7XUNH\ ,Q KLV LQYHVWLJDWLYH UHSRUWLQJ RQ ZKLWH VXSUHPDFLVW PRYHPHQWV DQG 1HR 1D]L QHWZRUNV LQ WKH 8QLWHG 6WDWHV UHFHLYHG WKH SUHVWLJLRXV 'X3RQW &ROXPELD $ZDUG

3RSXODU )URQW LV D JUDVVURRWV QHZV RUJDQL]DWLRQ WKDW GRHVQ¶W UHO\ RQ FRUSRUDWH LQYHVWRUV 7KH SODWIRUP UXQV VROHO\ RII RI 3DWUHRQ VXEVFULSWLRQV LQGLYLGXDO GRQDWLRQV DQG PHUFKDQGLVH VDOHV ,Q QHDUO\ \HDUV 3RSXODU )URQW KDV UHFRUGHG RYHU SRGFDVW HSLVRGHV DQG ¿OPHG GRFXPHQWDULHV RQH RI ZKLFK 3ODVWLF 'HIHQFH KDV JDLQHG RYHU PLOOLRQ YLHZV RQ <RX7XEH

3RSXODU )URQW LV D EUHDN DZD\ IURP PHGLD RUWKRGR[\ ,W FRYHUV ZKDW LW ZDQWV DQG KRZ LW ZDQWV -RXUQDOLVP GRHVQ¶W have to be boring. It can remain professional without beLQJ ZDWHUHG GRZQ DQG VWHULOL]HG

It’s 2023, war has changed… so has it’s coverage.

RK:

JH:

<RXU ZRUN KDV EURXJKW \RX WR DUHDV RI LQWHQVH FRQÀLFW WKH IURQW OLQHV RI ZDU DQG FULPLQDO XQGHUZRUOGV :KDW ZDV \RXU OLIH OLNH EHIRUH \RX WRRN WKLV SDWK" :KHUH GLG \RX JURZ XS DQG ZKR ZHUH WKH SHRSOH SODFHV DQG WKLQJV WKDW VKDSHG ZKR \RX DUH WRGD\"

6R EHIRUH , GLG MRXUQDOLVP , KDG YHU\ QRUPDO MREV HYHU\ NLQG RI QRUPDO MRE \RX FDQ WKLQN RI SUHWW\ PXFK , PHDQ , worked in a call center… selling bullshit that people don’t want. I was really bad at that because I just didn’t care. I couldn’t sell someone something they didn’t want. I worked on a building site as a laborer, which means you basically just pick up bricks or smash things up and carry out the detritus from the building site. Everybody on the site fucking hates you. I had no skill. I hated it. If I have to do something I don’t like, I just hate it. , XVHG WR GR XQOLFHQVHG ER[LQJ IRU H[WUD PRQH\ IRU D ZKLOH WRR ZKHQ , ZDV D WHHQDJHU« HYHU\ QRZ DQG WKHQ ,W¶V NLQG of legal, but it’s not. It’s a gray area, but you get paid for it. You don’t have to be any good. I wasn’t. I did that for a little ZKLOH , ZRUNHG LQ WKH ER[LQJ J\P WRR« %XW \HDK PDQ DOO W\SHV RI GLIIHUHQW MREV , OHIW VFKRRO DW ZLWK QR TXDOL¿FDWLRQV because I just messed around in school.

7KLQJV FRXOG¶YH EHHQ PXFK ZRUVH EXW , ZDV YHU\ OXFN\ WR FRPH IURP D JRRG IDPLO\ \RX NQRZ" , PHDQ P\ SDUHQWV , have always had various issues with them, but my grandma and grandad really were always there for me. Very solid.

7KH\ KHOSHG PH VWHHU FOHDU IURP WKH ZRUVW VKLW WKDW ZDV LQ RXU DUHD %\ WKH WLPH , ZDV , PRYHG KRPHV OLNH WLPHV :H PRYHG D ORW EHFDXVH P\ GDG KDV YDULRXV LVVXHV 6R ZH ZHUH MXVW DOZD\V LQ ZKDW \RX JX\V ZRXOG FDOO VRFLDO KRXVLQJ 2YHU KHUH LW¶V FDOOHG FRXQFLO KRXVLQJ 7KH JRYHUQPHQW JLYHV \RX a house but other than that they don’t do a thing for the area. We also had to stay in a hostel, which was really weird because I was like seven years old and had to share a bathroom with a lot of junkies and stuff. But, like I say, it wasn’t VR EDG , ZDV OXFN\ WKDW , KDG P\ JUDQGSDUHQWV 7KH\¶UH JRRG SHRSOH YHU\ KXPEOH ZRUNLQJ FODVV SHRSOH 7KH\ FRPH IURP D JRRG EDFNJURXQG DQG , ZDV YHU\ OXFN\ WKDW , KDG WKHLU LQÀXHQFH 6R , MXVW FDUULHG RQ , IXFNHG XS VFKRRO EXW P\ JUDQGDG KHOSHG PH D ORW WKURXJK OLIH DQG DOZD\V WROG PH WR NHHS UHDGLQJ ERRNV 6R , DOZD\V NHSW UHDGLQJ $OVR 5D\ IURP P\ 7KDL ER[LQJ J\P KH UHDOO\ KHOSHG WRR +H JDYH PH P\ ¿UVW MRE WKDW , HYHU DFWXDOO\ OLNHG ZKLFK ZDV ZRUNLQJ WKHUH DW WKH J\P 6R , ZRUNHG WKHUH IRU IRXU \HDUV IURP OLNH XQWLO 7KDW UHDOO\ WDXJKW PH DERXW UHVSHFW and it helped me communicate with all different kinds of people. It was very hard… in a way. It was a working-class gym, LQ D UXQ GRZQ NLQG RI IXFNHG XS DUHD EXW D ORW RI UHVSHFW ZDV DOZD\V WKH NH\ WKHUH 7KLV ZDVQ¶W D FULPLQDO J\P ,W ZDVQ¶W a franchise where no one gave a shit about each other. It was a real community gym, and it was like family, you know?

7R WKLV GD\ , VWLOO JR WKHUH 6R WKDW UHDOO\ VHW PH ULJKW DQG KHOSHG VHW PH XS IRU OLIH 7R EH KRQHVW WKRXJK RQH RI P\ ELJJHVW PRWLYDWRUV ZHUH MXVW KDYLQJ WKHVH MREV WKDW , KDWHG , ZDV OLNH« , FDQQRW GR WKLV I can’t go out doing this shit. I guess I pushed on from there and taught myself everything I had to.

:KHUH GLG \RX JURZ XS" ,W¶V LQ WKH (DVW 0LGODQGV 7KH 1RUWKDQWV ,W¶V EDVLFDOO\ D GLVWULFW RI VHYHUDO GLIIHUHQW WRZQV RI YDULRXV VL]HV ,¶YH OLYHG DFURVV D ORDG RI WKHP 7KLV LV KRZ IXQQ\ WKLV SODFH LV« ZH KDYH D WRZQ ZLWK D FDWKHGUDO ZKLFK PHDQV LW¶V D FLW\ EXW LW KDVQ¶W EHHQ JLYHQ FLW\ VWDWXV IRU \HDUV 6R WKH PDLQ FLW\ ZKHUH , OLYH LV DFWXDOO\ D WRZQ 7KLV SODFH LV IXFNHG 1R one cares about it. No one gives a shit, you know? But, ironically, back in the day, it was really important. It’s the place ZKHUH WKH 'LJJHUV DQG WKH 1HZ /HYHOOHUV URVH XS 7KH\ ZHUH UHDO (QJOLVK UHEHOV 7KH\ ZHUH DQWL PRQDUFK\ &KULVWLDQ SURWR VRFLDOLVW UHYROXWLRQDULHV 7KH\ ZHUH DPD]LQJ SHRSOH 7KH\ ZHUH PRUH SURJUHVVLYH WKDQ SURJUHVVLYHV DQG ZHUH DURXQG LQ WKH V 7KH\¶UH IURP ZKHUH ,¶P IURP ZKLFK LV FRRO , JRW D WDWWRR RI RQH RI WKHP 7KH\ ZHUH YHU\ FRRO people. But since then, nothing cool has happened here. $FWXDOO\ WKDW¶V QRW WUXH 7KH ZKROH DUHD LV GHHSO\ LQWHUHVWLQJ 1RW DQ\WKLQJ WKDW D FRXQFLO ZRXOG HYHU WDON DERXW RU EUDJ DERXW WR JHW WRXULVWV WR FRPH KHUH 7KH PRVW LQWHUHVWLQJ WKLQJV DERXW ZKHUH ,¶P IURP DUH WKLQJV WKDW WKH ORFDO FRXQFLO would rather ignore, you know what I mean? Because they’re just weird, creepy, or violent. It’s a very interesting place now I think about it.

:KDW GR \RXU IULHQGV DQG IDPLO\ WKLQN DERXW ZKDW \RX¶UH GRLQJ QRZ"

7KH\¶UH UHDO SURXG 0\ JUDQGDG GLHG WZR \HDUV DJR *RG UHVW KLV VRXO +H ZDV D JUHDW PDQ +H ZDV YHU\ SURXG RI ZKDW ,¶YH built. We’re a small but close family, but we’re not lovey-dovey and all that. You just know through actions, and the way people KDYH WUHDWHG \RX WKDW \RX ORYH HDFK RWKHU DQG KDYH HDFK RWKHU¶V EDFN 0\ JUDQGDG GLHG VXGGHQO\ RI D KHDUW DWWDFN +H GLGQ¶W NQRZ KH ZDV JRLQJ WR GLH RU DQ\WKLQJ EXW RQH RI WKH ODVW WKLQJV KH VDLG LV ³ZH¶UH SURXG RI \RX \RX NQRZ´ $QG , ZDV OLNH «\HDK , NQRZ ,W IHOW NLQG RI DZNZDUG EHFDXVH ZH¶UH QRW WKDW NLQG RI IDPLO\ 7KRVH WKLQJV GRQ¶W HYHQ QHHG WR EH VDLG %XW P\ JUDQGDG ZDV OLNH« QR DUH \RX OLVWHQLQJ" $QG , ORRNHG DW KLP DQG KH ZDV OLNH «ZH DUH VR SURXG RI \RX 7KDW ZDV UHDO QLFH 7KDW ZDV MXVW DIWHU KH ZDWFKHG P\ *KRVWV RI .DUDEDNK GRFXPHQWDU\ +H ZDV UHDO SURXG DQG KH JRW WR VHH WKH ¿UVW LVVXH RI WKH 3RSXODU )URQW ]LQH WRR , WKLQN KH UHDOO\ JRW LW +H ODXJKHG DW WKH LQWUR EHFDXVH , ZDV VD\LQJ \RX NQRZ 3RSXODU )URQW LV QRW WKH EURRP XS WKH DVV VW\OH MRXUQDOLVP $QG , WKLQN WKHQ KH UHDOO\ JRW LW :H¶UH WDONLQJ OLNH WKLV DQG GRLQJ VHULRXV ZRUN DQG PLOOLRQV RI SHRSOH WXQH LQ , WKLQN KH JRW LW WKHP ,W ZDV OLNH RND\ \RX IRUJHG \RXU RZQ SDWK +H ZDV UHDO SURXG RI LW ,Q WHUPV RI IULHQGV« 5HFHQWO\ , ZDV WDONLQJ WR 5D\ IURP RXU 7KDL ER[LQJ J\P +H¶V OLNH RXU GDG DW WKH J\P LQ PDQ\ ZD\V , PHDQ , GRQ¶W WKLQN KH¶G OLNH XV WR VD\ WKDW EXW KH FHUWDLQO\ LV +H ZDV OLNH ,¶P UHDOO\ VXUSULVHG \RX ZHQW RQ WR GR WKLV \RX¶YH GRQH UHDO ZHOO +H LV GH¿QLWHO\ QRW WKH JX\ WR EH OLNH WKDW 6R , WKLQN HYHU\ERG\ LV UHDO SURXG RI LW ,W¶V D UHDOO\ QLFH IHHOLQJ EHFDXVH P\ same friends from back in the day, from when I was like 12, 13 doing dumb shit, getting in trouble… they’re like “we are proud of \RX PDWH´ $QG LW¶V OLNH IXFNLQJ KHOO PDQ ,W¶V D UHDOO\ QLFH IHHOLQJ \RX NQRZ" , GLGQ¶W UHDOO\ GR WKLV WR PDNH DQ\RQH SURXG , MXVW did it because I felt like it had to be done, and I wanted to do my own thing. I don’t think people were proud of me when I was a teenager. I was a fucking maniac. It’s nice that their proud now.

<RX UHFHQWO\ ¿OPHG D GRFXPHQWDU\ DERXW WKH +RRGV +RRGV .ODQ DQ DQWL IDVFLVW IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ JURXS IURP 8NUDLQH WKDW IRUPHG WKHLU RZQ PLOLWDU\ XQLW LQ WKH QDWLRQ¶V 7HUULWRULDO 'HIHQVH 0RVW $PHULFDQV KDYH SUREDEO\ QHYHU KHDUG RI D KRROLJDQ :KDW H[DFWO\ LV D KRROLJDQ" $QG ,¶YH DOZD\V ZDQWHG WR DVN ZHUH \RX HYHU D KRROLJDQ" I mean, I certainly would be considered a hooligan by people that knew me back in the day, but not a football hooligan. I don’t even give a shit about football, to be honest. I’m not interested. I never have been. But there is a difference. I think it’s a class

issue in Britain. Whereas, if you are kind of middle class, you would call someone a hooligan in the most distasteful way.

Like, oh… they’re a hooligan, they’re trash, they’re shit. But if you’re more working class, you would say someone’s a hooligan and it’s not necessarily all bad. It’s someone that LV LQYROYHG LQ FKDRWLF DFWLYLW\ RIWHQ ¿JKWLQJ ,W¶V PXFK ZRUVH WR EH ZKDW ZH ZRXOG FDOO D µURDGPDQ¶ LQ P\ RSLQLRQ 7KDW¶V someone that’s selling drugs in the community and stuff like WKDW 6HQVHOHVV FULPH &RZDUGLFH VWDEELQJ SHRSOH UXGH IRU QR UHDVRQ 7KDW VRUW RI WKLQJ :KHUH ,¶P IURP LI \RX FDOO VRPHone a hooligan, it wouldn’t be so bad, you know what I’m sayLQJ" 1RW WKDW LW¶V JRRG EXW LW GH¿QLWHO\ LV QRW WKH VDPH WKLQJ But no, I wouldn’t say I was a hooligan. I was more of a helOLRQ« 7KDW¶V DQ ,ULVK ZRUG KDQJ RQ +RZ ZRXOG , H[SODLQ that? Like, a hoodlum, you know what I mean? Not a criminal RU DQ\WKLQJ -XVW OLNH D IXFNLQJ OLWWOH VKLW D VKLW EDJ \RX NQRZ" You’re riding bikes up to the river, fucking around, there’s an DEDQGRQHG FDU WKDW \RX VHW ¿UH WR EHFDXVH HYHU\ERG\ NQRZV WKDW LW¶V DEDQGRQHG *HWWLQJ LQWR GXPE ¿JKWV ZLWK WKH RWKHU schools because we go to a different school, dumb shit like that. Like, I thought I was this big fucking hooligan, but I wasn’t really, you know what I mean? I was just a normal kid where I was from, which when you hit a certain age in my town, you either knuckle down with schoolwork or you get into stupid VWUHHW ¿JKWLQJ DQG VHWWLQJ RII ¿UHZRUNV DQG VWXII But like we were never bullies. We, my friends, were all very DZDUH RI WKDW VKLW , JRW H[FOXGHG IURP VFKRRO IRU VWLFNLQJ XS for a friend of mine who was the kid that everybody picked RQ 6RPH NLG VPDVKHG KLP LQ WKH KHDG ZLWK D IXFNLQJ VWRRO IRU QR UHDVRQ VR ZH HQGHG XS ¿JKWLQJ EHFDXVH , ZDQWHG WR GHIHQG P\ PDWH 7KH VFKRRO ZDV OLNH KH¶V K\SHU DJJUHVVLYH he attacked this kid. But no, we were actually defending our IULHQG IURP JHWWLQJ EXOOLHG <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" 6R WKHUH¶V DOZD\V D GLIIHUHQW FRQWH[W , WKLQN , UHDOO\ OHDUQHG WKDW TXLWH young. I was like, okay, well, the teachers are saying this, but DFWXDOO\ ZH ZHUH KHOSLQJ VRPHERG\ \RX NQRZ" 6R LW ZDV D weird coming of age. I was involved in all that rough activity in some way, but also I was getting beaten up because I had D ELJ PRXWK 7KHQ , ZRXOG JHW P\ VKLW SXVKHG LQ EHFDXVH , wasn’t the tough guy I thought I was [laughs]. I was really young then though. Like 14. When I hit about 18, I’d really OHDUQHG D ORW IURP WKH ER[LQJ J\P ,¶G OHDUQW VR PXFK E\ WKDW age that I was like… yeah, this is immature to be acting like WKLV \RX NQRZ" 6R , FKDQJHG , JUHZ XS D OLWWOH ELW DQG , WKLQN that really helped me get on. I was like, right, I need a career. %XW \HDK WR DQVZHU \RXU TXHVWLRQ WKRXJK $ IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ LV VRPHRQH WKDW LV LQYROYHG LQ RUJDQL]HG YLROHQFH EHWZHHQ RWKHU IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ ¿UPV $ ¿UP LV ZKDW \RX ZRXOG FDOO« I guess the crew, or, like the posse, of the hooligans. It originated in Britain, but now it’s a lot bigger in eastern Europe and other countries. *HUPDQ\ KDV D YHU\ ELJ IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ VFHQH QRZ *HQHUally, most football hooligans are either right wing, apolitical, RU IDU ULJKW 6R WKH DQWL IDVFLVW KRROLJDQV²WKHUH DUHQ¶W D ORW RI

WKHP 7KRVH RQHV DUH YHU\ YHU\ YLROHQW DQG H[WUHPHO\ ZHOO RUJDQL]HG EHFDXVH WKH\ KDYH WR EH %XW \HDK KRROLJDQV« 7KH\ ¿JKW RWKHU SHRSOH WKDW DOVR ZDQW WR ¿JKW WKHP 7KH\¶UH QRW LQ WKH VWUHHWV VPDVKLQJ WKH SODFH XS DQ\PRUH 7KH\¶UH QRW VHWWLQJ ¿UH WR WKH VWDGLXP ,W¶V RUJDQL]HG ¿JKWLQJ LQ VHFOXGHG DUHDV DQG ¿HOGV QRZ RIWHQ ZKHUH QR RQH HOVH LV 2I FRXUVH WKH PRUH SROLWLFDO RQHV GR HQG XS ¿JKWLQJ HDFK RWKHU LQ WKH VWUHHWV EXW WKDW¶V D SROLWLFDO WKLQJ ,W¶V QRW D IRRWEDOO WKLQJ 3HUVRQDOO\ , GRQ¶W FDUH LI VRPHRQH ZDQWV WR ¿JKW VRPHRQH HOVH and they both agree and it’s away from the public and it’s not causing anybody harm. I don’t know what the state has to do ZLWK WKDW , PHDQ ZKR JLYHV D IXFN" ,W¶V XS WR WKHP 7R EH honest, I am friends with football hooligans, both anti-fascists DQG DSROLWLFDO 7KH\¶UH VRPH RI WKH PRVW KHOSIXO SHRSOH \RX¶OO HYHU IXFNLQJ PHHW $QG WKH\ KDYH YHU\ JRRG IULHQGVKLS EDVHV Certainly, they’re more in tune with real life than most of the people I know that would call somebody a hooligan as a derogatory term.

:KHQ GLG \RX VWDUW JHWWLQJ LQWR 0XD\ 7KDL" I was 14. I was at that cringe moment in a young man’s life ZKHQ \RX¶UH DOO DQJU\ DQG ORVW , GLGQ¶W KDYH WKH FRQ¿GHQFH WR deal with it properly. I was in school getting my head kicked in >ODXJKV@ 6R WKLV ODG LQ P\ \HDU DW VFKRRO 6KDQH KH¶G EHHQ D 7KDL ER[HU VLQFH KH ZDV OLWHUDOO\ IRXU \HDUV ROG (YHU\RQH knew he was a weapon, but also like the nicest most chilled RXW JX\ +LV GDG LV 5D\ +H RZQV WKH J\P , JR WR $Q\ZD\ VR 6KDQH RQH GD\ ZDV MXVW OLNH PDWH \RX¶UH JHWWLQJ LQWR DOO WKHVH VFUDSHV \RX VKRXOG FRPH WR 7KDL ER[LQJ $W ¿UVW , WKRXJKW \HDK WKDW¶V JUHDW ,¶OO JHW WRXJK DQG WKHQ , FDQ ¿JKW HYHU\ERG\ I was so childish. But quickly you learn all that street shit is irUHOHYDQW 6R ZKHQ , VWDUWHG JRLQJ WR 7KDL ER[LQJ ZLWK 6KDQH I began to really love it. It was a safe and warm environment to get all that anger out and to learn real discipline and comradery. It gave me a constructive way to release all that stress.

0\ JUDQGDG ZDV UHDOO\ KDSS\ ZKHQ , VWDUWHG WRR +H FRXOG VHH LW ZDV JRRG IRU PH +H GLG ER[LQJ ZKHQ KH ZDV D WHHQDJHU EDFN LQ ,UHODQG +H ZDV OLNH WKLV LV JRRG IRU \RX« ,¶P surprised you’ve got into this, because I wasn’t that kind of kid, you know? I was very shy. I was angry, but I was shy.

When I was about 16 I started doing weights with my friend DW WKH ER[LQJ J\P WRR 6R , ZDV WUDLQLQJ ¿YH WLPHV D ZHHN I was working at the gym. I’d moved out from home at my PXP¶V KRXVH E\ WKHQ WRR DQG , OLYHG ¿YH PLQXWHV IURP WKH J\P 6R P\ ZKROH OLIH MXVW EHFDPH WKH J\P ,W ZDV P\ VRFLDO OLIH ZRUN KHDOWK HYHU\WKLQJ $QG LW ZDV WKH EHVW H[SHULHQFH Even when the gym closed for the night, we’d all go hang RXW WRJHWKHU 6R IRU PH LW UHDOO\ VDYHG P\ OLIH ,W JDYH PH P\ FRQ¿GHQFH EDFN DQG JDYH PH D QHZ GLUHFWLRQ ,W UHDOO\ helped me. I think if I hadn’t found that gym, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing now. It really set me up to do reporting and be successful.

:KHQ GLG \RX VWDUW JHWWLQJ LQWR MRXUQDOLVP DQG WDNLQJ LW VHULRXVO\" Well, I was always into it, even when I was really young. In VFKRRO , UHPHPEHU EHLQJ \HDUV ROG ZDWFKLQJ %HQ $QGHUVRQ LQ $IJKDQLVWDQ , ZDV OLNH ZRZ WKDW LV IXFNLQJ FUD]\ %HQ $QGHUVRQ LV D QRUPDO JX\ +H¶V DFWXDOO\ IURP %HGIRUG ZKLFK is not far from where I’m from. I met him later in life at Vice. +H ZDV D UHDOO\ QLFH JX\ , JRW DGYLFH IURP KLP :KHQ , ZDV OLNH KH GLG WKLV VHULHV ZKHUH KH ZHQW WR 1RUWK .RUHD DQG places like that. $OVR , ZDV D YHU\ RQOLQH NLG IURP YHU\ HDUO\ RQ /LNH , PDGH D )LQDO )DQWDV\ IDQ SDJH XVLQJ +70/ DQG 1RWHSDG ZKHQ , ZDV QLQH >ODXJKV@ 0\ JUDQGDG JDYH PH DQ +70/ )RU 'XPmies sort of book. I can see it now. It had an ostrich on the front cover. I made a whole website. I was like, really into it.

6R WKURXJK WKDW , ZDV DOZD\V WDSSHG LQWR VKLW (DUO\ RQ LW PDGH PH UHDOL]HG WKHUH LV D ZKROH ZRUOG RI DGYHQture out there. It seemed so far away, but something clicked, and I was like, man, you can literally just go there… Like anyRQH FDQ JR $QG , ZDV DOZD\V UHDGLQJ , ZDV UHDGLQJ DOO P\ OLIH , ZDV UHDOO\ LQWR ¿FWLRQ EXW ZKHQ , ZDV D WHHQDJHU , JRW LQWR QRQ ¿FWLRQ DQG WKDW¶V ZKHQ , VWDUWHG WR UHDOO\ EH OLNH wow, there is so many different things that are just not on the news and interesting.

I never had any money, and I was doing all these day jobs, jumping from one thing to the other. I just had this idea that I UHDOO\ KDG WR JHW PRQH\ $QG ZKHQ , VORZHG GRZQ DQG PDtured a little bit, I was like… well, what do I want to do? I’m good at writing. I would love to write, and I always had this idea that I’d write a book, but I was like… nah man, I need the H[SHULHQFH ¿UVW 6R WKHQ WKH ZHLUGHVW WKLQJ KDSSHQHG , ZDV DERXW RU DQG ,¶G OHIW WKH J\P E\ WKHQ 7KH\ FRXOGQ¶W DIIRUG WR NHHS PH RQ 7LPHV ZHUH KDUG , ZDV HDUQLQJ OLNH IRXU pound an hour, you know, like I needed more money [laughs].

6R , ZDV ORRNLQJ IRU MREV , WKRXJKW , ZDQWHG WR EH D MRXUQDOLVW but I didn’t know what that really meant. I’d look at the news and see some guy in a suit and a tie with a very strange voice.

I’m not that guy, you know? I could never be that guy.

6R DQ\ZD\ , ZHQW WR WKLV MRE LQWHUYLHZ DW 7. 0D[ , WKLQN \RX JX\V FDOO LW 7- 0D[ EXW RYHU LQ (QJODQG LW¶V FDOOHG 7. 0D[ , don’t know why…

7R EH KRQHVW , GLGQ¶W HYHQ ZDQW WKH MRE EXW , QHHGHG PRQH\ It was one of those bullshit interviews where you have to do D WHDP EXLOGLQJ H[HUFLVH ZLWK OLNH RWKHU SHRSOH WKDW DOVR want the job. It was like Battle Royale for low wage work, you know? It was just awful, man. Like, all these corporate scumbags are just watching you, like, just loving how hard you’re WU\LQJ WR HDUQ PLQLPXP ZDJH $ZIXO But anyway, this one girl and I got chatting and she asked me,

³ZKDW GR \RX ZDQW WR GR´" $QG , ZDV OLNH ³, GRQ¶W NQRZ ,¶P JRRG DW ZULWLQJ ´ $QG VKH ZDV OLNH ³RK PH WRR , ZDQW WR EH D MRXUQDOLVW´ $QG VKH ZDV VR QRUPDO , IRUJHW ZKHUH VKH ZDV from, but she was clearly like a normal, working-class girl.

When she said that, something in my head clicked, and I was like… well, fuck, if she can, I can, why not? You know?

6R IURP WKHQ RQ , ZDV OLNH IXFN LW PDQ , ZDQW WR EH D UHSRUWHU $QG WKDW¶V ZKHQ LW VWDUWHG , GLGQ¶W NQRZ KRZ EXW , VWDUWHG WR UHDG ERRNV E\ RWKHU MRXUQDOLVWV $QG WKDW UHDOO\ RSHQHG P\ ZRUOG XS )URP WR , UHDG PRUH ERRNV WKDQ ,¶YH HYHU read in my life. I was reading constantly. I read books from all WKHVH UHSRUWHUV OLNH (YDQ :ULJKW 'DYLG <DOORS %HQ $QGHUVRQ 'RQ 0F&XOOLQ

:HUH \RX DOZD\V GHDG VHW RQ JRLQJ LQWR &RQÀLFW -RXUQDO LVP" Yes and no. I was interested in what I’m still interested in now.

Like, underground shit, the outskirts of society, the fringes, DQG D ORW RI LW KDV WR GR ZLWK ZDU $ ORW RI SHRSOH DW ZDU DUH IURP WKH RXWVNLUWV WKH IULQJHV RI VRFLHW\ $V D NLG , IRXQG WKH LGHD of war so fucking boring. Because in school we just learned about how great the British army was.

I grew up with my grandad telling me that Michael Collins was a hero, which I believe he is a hero, so all that jingoistic stuff just didn’t work for me. I was an arsehole as a kid. I was a contrarian. I’d be eight years old, and they’d be teaching this shit in school, and I’d be like, well, what about when, you know, the colonial empire murdered all these kids? Like, I was really like into that shit. Not even on some annoying woke shit. It ZDV EHIRUH WKDW VKLW H[LVWHG 0\ GDG DQG JUDQGDG ZHUH MXVW YHU\ SROLWLFDO EXW QRW SHUIRUPDWLYH 7KH\ ZHUH MXVW YHU\ PDWWHU RI IDFW 7KH\ ZHUH OLNH« WKLV LV KRZ LW LV (DUO\ RQ , UHDOL]HG things are often not what they are presented to you as. My grandad was so smart though, not a contrarian. )RU H[DPSOH P\ JUDQGDG ZRXOG WHOO \RX KH EHOLHYHG LQ ,ULVK 5HSXEOLFDQLVP +H YHU\ PXFK GLG %XW \RX ZRXOGQ¶W VHH P\ JUDQGDG VLQJLQJ ³8S WKH 5$´ RU DQ\WKLQJ OLNH WKDW +H ZDV YHU\ SUDJPDWLF +H ZDV OLNH« ZHOO WKH 5$ KDG WR KDSSHQ because this, this, and this, but they’re not angels. It wasn’t something to glorify. It was just a thing that had to happen to VWRS WKH ,ULVK EHLQJ RSSUHVVHG 6R , JUHZ XS ZLWK WKDW DWWLWXGH that bad things have to happen sometimes for good things WR KDSSHQ $QG QR RQH LV DOO JRRG RU DOO EDG 3HRSOH DUHQ¶W caricatures. From very early on, I was aware that life is not like that.

6R DQ\ZD\ , ZDVQ¶W LQWHUHVWHG LQ ZDU VR PXFK EXW WKHQ , VWDUWHG OHDUQLQJ DERXW UHDO JXHULOOD FRQÀLFW DQG , ZDV OLNH« there’s so many interesting facets to this. I never thought I’d go to war. I always said I wouldn’t but within a year of getting P\ MRE DW 9LFH , ZDV DW ZDU 6R , JXHVV , UHDOO\ ZDQWHG WR EXW

I didn’t know it until I really got looking into it, you know?

I started off doing weird, niche shit, strange stuff. I was writing about conspiracy theorists, and for a while I thought… maybe I’ll do like a satire on that. I didn’t know what kind of reporter I wanted to be. I was trying to be too clever, which to be honest, EDFN WKHQ LW ZDV TXLWH D ELJ WKLQJ 7KDW VKLW KDV YDQLVKHG QRZ EHFDXVH HYHU\RQH¶V VR FUD]\ Over time I just really put a lot more effort into the stuff I liked.

7KHQ , JRW UHFRJQL]HG IRU WKH VWXII , OLNHG )RU H[DPSOH , GLG DQ DUWLFOH DERXW $QRQ\PRXV TXLWH HDUO\ RQ EHFDXVH , ZDV into that.

I interviewed the co-founder of WikiLeaks who broke away IURP $VVDQJH , ZURWH DERXW VNDWHERDUGHUV WKDW KDG WDNHQ over a mansion in war-torn Libya and turned it into a skate SDUN <RX NQRZ UHEHOV VWXII OLNH WKDW 6R , JXHVV IURP YHU\ early on, I was working out my niche, and to be honest, it’s not really changed. I’m just a lot more certain of what it is now.

'LG \RX KDYH DQ\ H[SHULHQFH ¿OPLQJ GRFXPHQWDULHV EH IRUH \RX VWDUWHG ZRUNLQJ RQ GRFV DW 9LFH 1HZV" I kind of did. Not documentaries, but when I was like 11, 12, 13, I was into skateboarding. I mean, I’m still into it. I think it’s great, but I just don’t skate anymore. I was a decent skater. I was doing big stair sets. I was getting to the point where I was trying out handrails and shit. I loved the whole scene behind VWUHHW VNDWLQJ , UHPHPEHU EHLQJ DQ DQ[LRXV NLG DQG JHWWLQJ LQWR VNDWLQJ ZDV UHDOO\ WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ WKDW SXOOHG PH RXW RI LW D ELW 7KDW ZDV OLNH D ELJ SDUW RI LW 6NDWLQJ ZDV WKH ¿UVW OHYHO DQG WKHQ WKH VHFRQG OHYHO ZDV WKH 7KDL ER[LQJ %XW WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ ZDV VNDWLQJ DQG OHDUQLQJ DERXW WKDW FXOWXUH $QG , PDGH a lot of good friends that I still have now, through skating.

spiration from that and the skate videos as well. Like, I mean, it’s very minor, but even in our last documentary, we brought D ¿VKH\H OHQV $QG WKDW VKLW LV D WKURZEDFN WR WKH ROG VFKRRO VNDWH YLGHR LQÀXHQFHV WKDW ZH KDYH :KHQ , ZDV 2FFXS\ :DOO 6WUHHW ZDV KDSSHQLQJ ,Q (Qgland, we had our own version. It was called Occupy LonGRQ EXW LW VWDUWHG RII DV 2FFXS\ WKH 6WRFN ([FKDQJH %XW YHU\ TXLFNO\ WKDW JRW PRYHG XS WKH URDG 7KH SROLFH PRYHG LW RXWVLGH 6W 3DXO¶V &DWKHGUDO ,W EHFDPH 2FFXS\ /RQGRQ , ZDV UHDOO\ LQWHUHVWHG LQ WKDW ZKROH VFHQH 6DP %ODFN ZKR¶V QRZ RQH RI P\ FR FROODERUDWRUV ZLWK 3RSXODU )URQW ZH ZHUH ERWK very political at that age. I mean now it would be considered some kind of anarchism, but we weren’t anarchists. It wasn’t OLNH WKDW EDFN WKHQ LQ (QJODQG HVSHFLDOO\ (YHQ LQ $PHULFD LW wasn’t quite like that. It wasn’t this side versus that side. It was anti-corruption, anti-control. We felt the boot on our heads. It ZDV WKH ¿UVW WLPH WKDW WKH \RXQJHU JHQHUDWLRQ P\ JHQHUDWLRQ EHFDPH DZDUH WKDW OLNH« RK $PHULFD LV ERPELQJ FKLOGUHQ RU«%ULWDLQ¶V 03V KDYH OLWHUDOO\ EHHQ UXQQLQJ D SHGRSKLOH ULQJ ZLWKLQ JRYHUQPHQW $OO VWXII QRZ ZKLFK ZRXOG JHW \RX FDOOHG D conspiracy theorist, even though it’s all completely documented and true.

7KLQJV ZHUH ZD\ OHVV IDFWLRQDOL]HG EDFN WKHQ :H ZHUH KDQJing out with communists, anarchists, maybe even a more rightwing libertarian, you know? We were in that whole WikiLeaks, 2FFXS\ $QRQ\PRXV VFHQH ,W IHOW UHDO 6R DQ\ZD\ , ¿OPHG DW 2FFXS\ /RQGRQ , JRW P\ IULHQG 6RQQ\ ZKR ZDV VWXG\LQJ SKRWRJUDSK\ DW WKH WLPH +H ¿OPHG DQG , MXVW LQWHUYLHZHG SHRSOH DW 2FFXS\ /RQGRQ $QG WKDW¶V WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ , HYHU GLG , ZDV such a baby. I have the footage somewhere. I’m so young.

<RX VKRXOG VKDUH LW ,W ZDV WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ ZKHUH , UHDOO\ GLVFRYHUHG VXEFXOWXUHV DQG FRXQWHUFXOWXUH ,W ZDV WKH WLPH RI &.< DQG -DFNDVV ZKLFK were both just the best things I’d ever seen in my fucking life.

-DFNDVV ZDV FRRO EXW &.< ZDV P\ WKLQJ , WKRXJKW %DP 0DUJHUD ZDV VR FRRO 7KDW ZDV XQOLNH DQ\WKLQJ WKDW KDG HYHU KDSSHQHG EHIRUH $QG LW UHDOO\ ZDV /LWHUDOO\ QRWKLQJ ORRNHG OLNH WKDW 7KH\ FDPH XS ZLWK WKHLU RZQ VW\OH DQG HYHU\WKLQJ 6R , saw that and used to pinch my grandad’s little digital cameras ZKHQ WKH\ ¿UVW VWDUWHG FRPLQJ RXW /LNH IXFNLQJ S ZDV OLNH« ZKRD FUD]\ TXDOLW\ :H ZRXOG MXVW ¿OP VWXII :H¶G ¿OP VNDWHERDUGLQJ EUDZOLQJ DQG SOD\LQJ ZLWK ¿UH²OLNH YHU\ ZLOG GXPE NLG EHKDYLRU ZKLFK you don’t really get these days anymore because everything LV VR SRLVRQHG QRZ .LGV MXVW HQG XS FULPLQDOV \RX NQRZ" %XW anyway, we had all this footage, and I was like, what should ZH GR ZLWK LW" $QG , MXVW VWDUWHG HGLWLQJ LW LQ :LQGRZV 0RYLH 0DNHU DQG JHWWLQJ PXVLF DQG VWXII 7KDW ZDV P\ ¿UVW IRUD\ LQWR LW DQG WR EH KRQHVW D ORW RI WKHP LQÀXHQFHV , VWLOO KDYH QRZ , PHDQ &.< LV YLVXDOO\ RQH RI WKH EHVW WKLQJV ,¶YH HYHU VHHQ , ZDWFKHG LW DJDLQ ODVW \HDU 7R WKLV GD\ , VWLOO WDNH D ORW RI LQ-

Yeah. I’ll have to look for it.

, UHPHPEHU UHDGLQJ D ERRN ZKHUH WKH\ ZHUH WDONLQJ DERXW SHRSOH XVLQJ &KDQ WR KHOS RUJDQL]H VRPH RI WKH 2FFXS\ PRYHPHQWV Yeah, 4Chan was different back then. 4Chan was not what LW LV QRZ $W WKH WLPH &KDQ ZDV D SUHWW\ JRRG SODFH IRU UHDO grassroots political activity. It was a space for that. Now, if you even say that people can get upset. But it’s true. I mean even QRZ WKHUH¶V ORDGV RI LQWHUHVWLQJ VKLW RQ WKHUH 2EYLRXVO\ SRO is the most cringiest and disgusting place ever, but there’s WRQV RI RWKHU ERDUGV 7KHUH¶V OLWHUDOO\ ERDUGV IRU NQLWWLQJ DQG 8)2V \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" ,W¶V MXVW D WKLQJ« Now though I guess you have to have the 100% Correct OpinLRQ RU HOVH <RX PXVW DFTXLUH DOO WKH *RRG %R\ 3RLQWV >ODXJKV@ +DELWXDO 5HGGLWRU PHQWDOLW\ , MXVW GLGQ¶W FRPH XS LQ D WLPH OLNH WKDW 7KLQJV ZHUH PRUH RSHQ DQG QXDQFHG EDFN WKHQ , VHH D

lot of people from my era doing cool shit now, and I just know they were a part of that scene back then. I can just tell.

6R \RX ZHUH DUUHVWHG DQG LPSULVRQHG LQ 7XUNH\ LQ ZKLOH FRYHULQJ WKH \RXWK ZLQJ RI WKH 3.. :KDW H[DFWO\ KDSSHQHG DQG KRZ¶G \RX JHW RXW" <HDK EDVLFDOO\ WKH 3.. WKH \RXWK ZLQJ ZHUH WDNLQJ RYHU .XUGLVK FLWLHV LQ 6RXWKHDVW 7XUNH\ 7KH 7XUNLVK JRYHUQPHQW KLVWRULFDOO\ KDV EHHQ DZIXO WR WKH .XUGV $W WKDW WLPH WKH ZDU ZDV RQ D FHDVH¿UH EXW LW ZDV ZKHQ 5RMDYD WKH .XUGLVK UHJLRQ LQ 1RUWKHDVW 6\ULD ZDV UHDOO\ JHWWLQJ LQWR IXOO VZLQJ 7KH\ ZHUH ¿JKWLQJ ,6,6 7R EH KRQHVW WKH 7XUNLVK JRYHUQPHQW ZDV D ORW IULHQGOLHU DW WKDW WLPH WR WKH .XUGV 7KH\ ZHUH DOORZHG WR KDYH WKHLU RZQ ÀDJV LQ WKHLU DUHDV &RPSDUH WKDW WR QRZ IRU H[DPSOH ZKHUH D PDQ ZDV DUUHVWHG LQ D .XUGLVK FLW\ LQ 7XUNH\ IRU KDYLQJ LFH FUHDP WKDW ZDV \HOORZ UHG DQG JUHHQ EHFDXVH LW ZDV SHUFHLYHG DV SUR .XUGLVK FRORUV , PHDQ« LW ZDV MXVW IXFNLQJ YDQLOOD VWUDZEHUU\ DQG PLQW ,QVDQH 7KDW¶V how bad the oppression is there now. No one wants to talk DERXW LW EHFDXVH \RX NQRZ 7XUNH\ LV LQ 1$72 (YHU\ERG\ NQRZV« LI \RX¶UH RQ WKH 1$72 VLGH \RX¶UH DQ RI¿FLDO *RRG Boy. You can’t possibly commit war crimes.

Obviously, we knew that wasn’t real life, and we knew that the 7XUNLVK JRYHUQPHQW ZHUH FRPPLWWLQJ YHU\ EUXWDO ZDU FULPHV DJDLQVW WKH .XUGLVK SHRSOH 1RW MXVW WKH UHEHOV WKDW ZHUH ULVing up either. I mean, if you take a gun in your hand and get shot… that’s life… that’s war. But it wasn’t just that. It was killLQJ FKLOGUHQ 1LKDW .D]DQKDQ 8PLW .XUW DOO WKHVH \RXQJ ER\V JHWWLQJ VKRW GHDG IRU GRLQJ QRWKLQJ 6KRW GHDG MXVW IRU EHLQJ .XUGLVK )RU H[LVWLQJ $QG WKDW¶V NLQG RI ZKHUH LW JUHZ IURP 7KDW¶V ZKHQ WKH DUPHG \RXWK VWDUWHG UHDOO\ ULVLQJ XS 6R ZH ZHQW DQG FRYHUHG LW :H FRYHUHG LW RQFH ZH FRYHUHG it twice, and then we went back a third time, and it was clear DOO RXW ZDU ZDV EXEEOLQJ $W ¿UVW LW ORRNHG OLNH LW PLJKW WXUQ LQWR D VPDOO FRQÀLFW 7KHQ WKH .XUGLVK \RXWK KDG OLWHUDOO\ WDNen over some of their neighborhoods. Chased out the police.

7KHQ WKH\ KDG FKHFNSRLQWV ZLWK PDFKLQH JXQV 4XLFNO\ LW ZDV a full-scale war. ,Q WKH VSDFH RI WZR \HDUV 7XUNH\ ZDV OLWHUDOO\ GURSSLQJ DLUVWULNHV RQ LWV RZQ FLWLHV $ ORW RI SHRSOH GRQ¶W UHDOL]H KRZ IHURFLRXV WKDW ZDU JRW 7KH\ ZHUH ERPELQJ WHHQDJHUV ZLWK $.V ZLWK IXFNLQJ ZDU SODQHV 7KDW¶V KRZ EDG LW ZDV ,W ZDV FUD]\ RXW WKHUH ,W¶V WKH FUD]LHVW FRQÀLFW ,¶YH HYHU FRYHUHG 8UEDQ combat like that, where one side has an air force, and the other doesn’t even have boots… It was a guerilla war versus 1$72¶V VHFRQG ODUJHVW DUP\ ,W ZDV LQVDQH $QG , ZDV RQH RI maybe… four foreign journalists that were there. I mean, to be honest, I only know of one other at that time, but I’m sure WKHUH ZHUH SUREDEO\ PRUH $QG \HDK LW ZDV FKDRV :H ZHUH EHKLQG HQHP\ OLQHV« LQ WHUPV RI WKH 7XUNLVK SHUVSHFWLYH :H KDG YHU\ JRRG DFFHVV WR WKH .XUGV EHFDXVH , ZDV RQH RI WKH

¿UVW SHRSOH WR FRYHU WKH .XUGLVK \RXWK PLOLWLD LQ 7XUNH\ ZLWKRXW towing the government line and smearing them all as “terrorists”. &L]UH ZKHUH WKH ZDU EHJDQ ZDV FUD]\ , ZHQW EDFN WR &L]UH at the height of the war, and we had kids coming out with PDFKLQH JXQV EHLQJ OLNH +HYDO &RPH ZLWK XV &RPH ZLWK XV 1RUPDOO\ \RX KDYH WR UHDOO\ ¿JKW IRU DFFHVV )RU XV LW ZDV WKH RSSRVLWH 7KH\ ZHUH OLNH ZH¶UH PDNLQJ ERPEV LQ KHUH FRPH see. :H ZHQW WR RWKHU FLWLHV DQG WKH 3.. OLNH WKH DFWXDO 3.. WKH mountain guerillas, they turned up in civilian clothes carrying NLOR $1)2 ERPEV 7KH ZKROH WKLQJ ZDV QXWV 7KH ZKROH WRZQ JRW VKXW RII 7KH HOHFWULF JRW WXUQHG RII RQH QLJKW :H ZHUH ZDQGHULQJ DURXQG DQG WKH 7XUNLVK PLOLWDU\ ZHUH ¿ULQJ FDOLEHU ULÀHV LQWR WKH FLW\ IURP WKH PRXQWDLQV QHDUE\ , UHPHPEHU WKH KROHV WKH\ PDGH LQ WKH ZDOOV ZHUH WKH VL]H RI IXFNLQJ WHQQLV EDOOV 3HRSOH¶V KRXVHV ZHUH IDOOLQJ GRZQ IURP EHLQJ VKRW XS 7KH\ ZHUHQ¶W HYHQ JHWWLQJ VKHOOHG 7KH DPRXQW of rounds that were going into people’s houses were collapsLQJ WKH KRXVHV $QG WKDW¶V DOVR GXH WR WKH IDFW WKDW KRXVHV ZHUH PDGH YHU\ EDGO\ WKHUH EHFDXVH WKH 7XUNLVK JRYHUQPHQW GRHVQ¶W JLYH D VKLW DERXW .XUGLVK UHJLRQV $Q\ZD\ ZH FRYHUHG WKDW :H JRW LQFUHGLEOH IRRWDJH ,¶YH QHYHU VHHQ DQ\RQH JHW WKDW NLQG RI DFFHVV WR WKH 3.. GXULQJ FRPEDW $QG WKHQ ZH JRW DUUHVWHG EHFDXVH ZH FRYHUHG WKH areas where the government had lost control, but we wanted to also cover the areas where the government was.

3.. KDG FRQWURO RI RQH QHLJKERUKRRG EXW QRW HYHU\ DUHD \RX NQRZ ZKDW ,¶P VD\LQJ" $QG WKDW¶V ZKHQ ZH JRW DUUHVWHG 7KH\ FDPH WR WKH KRWHO :H KDG MXVW FRPH EDFN RQH QLJKW I remember we had this really nice chicken kebab, and then we get back to the fucking hotel and, literally, police pulled the JXQV RXW %DVLFDOO\ VWUDLJKW WR SULVRQ WKDW QLJKW 0H 3KLO 5Dsool. We spent 11 days in four different prisons. We were held LQ PD[ VHFXULW\ XQWLO WKH ODVW RQH ZKLFK ZDV D GHSRUWDWLRQ SULVRQ $QG WKDW ZDV SUHWW\ FUD]\ 7KDW ZDV JHQ SRS >*HQHUDO 3RSXODWLRQ@ 6R ZH ZHUH LQ PDLQ ÀRZ ZLWK HYHU\ERG\ $QG WKDW¶V ZKHQ ZH ZHUH LQ SULVRQ ZLWK IXFNLQJ ,6,6 DQG KDYLQJ WR HDW GLQQHU ZLWK WKHP 6KLW ZDV FUD]\ PDQ >ODXJKV@ /XFNLO\ VRPH $IJKDQ UHIXJHHV ZHUH LQ WKHUH ZLWK XV 7KH\ VDYHG XV EHFDXVH WKH ,6,6 JX\V ZDQWHG WR FXW RXU IXFNLQJ KHDGV RII LQ WKH WRLOHW 6R ZH KDG VRPH $IJKDQ UHIXJHHV DQG DQ ,UDQLDQ JX\ WKDW KHOSHG XV DQG EDVLFDOO\ SURWHFWHG XV $QG VRPH 6\ULDQ UHEHOV 7KH\ ZHUH UHDO )6$ QRW QR DO 1XVUD RU DQ\WKLQJ« 7KHVH JX\V ZHUH UHDO SURSHU )6$ UHEHOV ZKR ZHUH GRQH ZLWK WKH ZDU KDYLQJ UHDOL]HG LW ZDV DOUHDG\ ORVW WR $VVDG DQG MLKDGLVWV Basically, the way the deportation prison worked was if you ZHUH FDXJKW FRPLQJ RYHU WKH 7XUNLVK ERUGHU DQG \RX DUH from somewhere else, they would put you in that prison to GHSRUW \RX 6R ZH ZHUH LQ SULVRQ ZLWK DERXW &KHFKHQ ,6,6 ¿JKWHUV ZKR ZRXOG FRPH RYHU WKH ERUGHU WR JHW 5 5 2QH RI WKHP KDG WKLV IXFNLQJ FUD]\ JXQVKRW ZRXQG LQ KLV DUP +H

ZHQW WR 7XUNH\ WR JR WR D KRVSLWDO EHFDXVH WKH 7XUNLVK JRYHUQPHQW ZDV WUHDWLQJ ,6,6 ¿JKWHUV EFN WKHQ DQG WKHQ VHQGLQJ WKHP EDFN WR ZDU LQ 6\ULD VR WKH\ FRXOG NLOO .XUGV EDVLFDOO\

translator, he got out. But you get what I’m saying. Not everyone gets lucky.

7KH UHIXJHHV ZKR¶G EHHQ QDEEHG RQ WKH ERUGHU DQG LPSULVRQHG ZHUH JUHDW WKRXJK 7KH\ ORRNHG DIWHU XV 7KH\ ZHUH OLNH KH\ ZH¶UH 0XVOLP EXW ZH¶UH QRW IXFNLQJ GDHVK 7KDW PDGH me laugh. We were like, yeah, we’re not against you guys, ZH¶UH FRRO ZLWK WKDW $QG WKH\ GHFLGHG WKH\ ZHUH JRLQJ WR ORRN after us. Luckily, one of them made a knife from a sharpened VSRRQ KDQGOH DQG OLJKW WR KHOS ZDUG RII WKH ,6,6 JX\V (YHQtually, we got deported, and it was okay. $SSDUHQWO\ ,¶P EHLQJ VHQWHQFHG LQ 0DUFK EXW ,¶YH VWLOO QRW EHHQ VHQWHQFHG 1RQH RI XV KDYH 7KLV FRXUW FDVH KDV EHHQ ongoing for like eight years.

5DVRRO"

2K P\ *RG

<HDK ,W¶V FUD]\ 2QH RI RXU ODZ\HUV ZDV NLOOHG 7KH RWKHU GLHG VXVSLFLRXVO\ ,W¶V IXFNHG XS 7KH\ ZHUH JUHDW JX\V

,I WKLV DOO JHWV VRUWHG RXW ZRXOG \RX FRQVLGHU JRLQJ EDFN WR 7XUNH\" 1HYHU 1RW HYHQ LI WKH\ JRW D QHZ JRYHUQPHQW 1R ZD\ 7KH ULVN RI DQ\ SRVVLELOLW\ RI JRLQJ WR SULVRQ DJDLQ WKHUH« 7KDW VKLW is hell on earth. It’s unbelievable how bad it is in there, and, to be honest, we got off pretty lightly. Like, we didn’t get raped.

We didn’t get poisoned. It’s real wild in there, man. It was so fucked up for us, and that was for white kids from a foreign FRXQWU\ ,PDJLQH ZKDW LW¶V OLNH IRU D 7XUN RU D .XUG <RX¶UH IXFNHG <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" ,I \RX¶UH D .XUG \RX¶UH QRW getting out of there. You are fucked. :HOO« 2XU .XUGLVK IULHQG ZKR ZDV ZLWK XV ZKR ZDV RXU

<HDK 5DVRRO P\ EUR +H VSHQW OLNH D KXQGUHG GD\V H[WUD LQ there. I don’t know, he got lucky…he got real lucky. But, if you DUH D .XUG IURP 7XUNH\ \RX DUH IXFNHG

:KDW LV LW OLNH KDQJLQJ DURXQG ,6,6 ¿JKWHUV DQG MLKDGLVWV" 'LG WKH\ SXW RXW EDG YLEHV" No. It’s the opposite, actually, because they don’t see themVHOYHV DV EDG JX\V 7KH\ WKLQN WKH\¶UH GRLQJ WKH ULJKW WKLQJ /DWHU RQ RQH RI RXU $IJKDQ IULHQGV D UHIXJHH ZDV OLNH \HDK they were planning to behead you. I mean, I kind of thought WKDW ZDV WKH LGHD EXW LW ZDV VWLOO OLNH RK IXFN %XW WKH $IJKDQ ODG KHOSHG XV +H KDG WKH LQWHO EHFDXVH DOO WKH 0XVOLPV SUD\HG LQ RQH URRP DQG REYLRXVO\ WKH QRUPDO JX\V KDYH WR SUD\ QH[W WR WKH ,6,6 JX\V EHFDXVH LW¶V MXVW WKH RQH URRP 2XU $IJKDQ PDWH ZRXOG KHDU VWXII +H WROG WKHP DSSDUHQWO\ WKDW LI WKH\ FXW off our heads he’d straight up snitch on everybody and then QR RQH ZRXOG JHW RXW >ODXJKV@ +H WROG WKHP , ZLOO JR VWUDLJKW WR WKH JXDUGV 7KH JXDUGV DV EDG DV WKH\ ZHUH DUH QRW JRing to let you get fucking beheaded because it will just be a huge international scandal if some British guys get beheaded LQ ZKDW LV HVVHQWLDOO\ D 1$72 PHPEHU SULVRQ 6R DQ\ZD\ WKH PDLQ JX\ WKDW ZDV SODQQLQJ WR FKRS RXU KHDGV off was hanging out with us. Well, not hanging out as such, EXW ZH¶G HDW GLQQHU DQG KH ZRXOG VLW ZLWK XV VRPHWLPHV +H VSRNH (QJOLVK 6R \RX FRXOG WDON WR KLP DQG KH¶G EH OLNH KH\ ZKDW¶V IRU GLQQHU" 7KH IRRG¶V QRW EDG WRQLJKW 7KDW VRUW RI WKLQJ $ FRXSOH GD\V LQ ZH UHDOL]HG SHRSOH ZHUH FRRO ZLWK XV SUHWW\ PXFK 6R ZH¶G SXW WKH GLVKHV RXW ZH¶G KHOS VHUYH WKH IRRG DQG VWXII OLNH WKDW %XW DQ\ZD\ WKLV ,6,6 JX\ WKDW ZDV FKLOO ZDV DFWXDOO\ SODQQLQJ WR NLOO XV 3UHWW\ DQQR\LQJ 2QH RU WZR RI WKHP ZHUH VR H[WUHPH WKDW WKH\ FRXOGQ¶W HYHQ EH GLSORPDWLF WKRXJK 7KH\ FRXOGQ¶W HYHQ SUHWHQG WR OLNH \RX 7KH\ MXVW ZDQWHG WR NLOO \RX HYHU\ PLQXWH /LNH WKH\ ZHUH WKH FUD]\ RQHV $ ZRPDQ ZRXOG FRPH RQ 79 LQ WKH WHOO\ URRP DQG if she wasn’t in a burka they would scream and throw things DW WKH 79 /LNH WKHUH ZDV RQH URRP ZLWK D VPDOO 79 DQG WKH\ would throw shit at it. Bonkers.

2QH GD\ ZH KXQJ RXW ZLWK DOO WKH )6$ JX\V EHFDXVH WKH\¶UH UHDO FRRO ,W ZDV P\ IULHQG 3KLO¶V ELUWKGD\ DQG , WROG WKHP VR they held a little party for us. I mean, obviously we couldn’t drink or anything, but they put like 15 sachets of coffee into a jar, and we drank it with hot water. It was the worst shit ever.

But they held a little party for us, and this jihadi ran into the room and was like, you shouldn’t be singing or dancing with WKHP 7KH\¶UH IXFNLQJ 6KD\WDQ 7KH\¶UH WKH GHYLO 7KH\¶UH NDIDU ,W ZDV WKH ZHLUGHVW VFHQH $OO WKHVH )6$ JX\V ZHUH VWLFN-

LQJ XS IRU XV 7KH\ ZHUH OLNH IXFN \RX /LNH VRPHRQH ZKR spoke English was translating now and then, and basically, they were like saying to the jihadists guys, you came to our country and chopped people’s heads off and brought in this IRUHLJQ MLKDGL FXOWXUH LQWR RXU FRXQWU\ +RZ IXFNLQJ GDUH \RX WHOO XV ZKDW WR GR KHUH" ,W ZDV UHDOO\ FUD]\ WR EH KRQHVW ZLWK \RX 9HU\ GDQJHURXV %XW ZH VXUYLYHG 7KRVH )6$ JX\V ZHUH really solid people.

,W¶V WKH PRVW VXUUHDO VKLW <HDK ,W¶V IXFNHG XS PDQ $QG WKHUH ZDV RQH LQVWDQFH ZKHUH WKLV ,6,6 NLG KH ZDV IURP .HQ\D RU VRPHZKHUH QHDUE\ , IRUget, but he was getting deported as well having been caught DW WKH ERUGHU E\ WKH ZURQJ JXDUGV +H ZDV OLNH DQG RQH QLJKW KH VOLW KLV ZULVWV $ JX\ IURP RXU URRP KHOSHG KLP RXW Now I don’t smoke, but in prison, you smoke. In war, you VPRNH 6R , ZDV VPRNLQJ D FLJDUHWWH ,W¶V FXUUHQF\ DQG WR have cigarettes it’s some kind of power when you have no SRZHU« $W OHDVW LI \RX FDQ VPRNH \RX FDQ JHW D FLJDUHWWH RU you can give a cigarette. , ZDV VPRNLQJ FLJV DQG WKLV NLG VDW QH[W WR PH DQG KH KDG all these bandages that were made out of bed linen wrapped DURXQG KLP EHFDXVH WKH JXDUGV GLGQ¶W JLYH D IXFN 7KH\ GLGQ¶W even take him to the hospital. I mean, he’s a black kid, so they VDZ KLP DV QRWKLQJ WKHUH \RX NQRZ" ,W ZDV DZIXO +RUULEOH and obvious racism.

6R KH MXVW VDW WKHUH OLNH DOO KLV OLIH ZDV JRQH +H ZDV GRQH $OO WKH MLKDGLV ZRXOGQ¶W WDON WR KLP EHFDXVH REYLRXVO\ KH¶G tried to kill himself, which is a sin for them. I felt bad for him, so I just held out a cigarette normal like everyone would do with the other prisoners you’re all cool with. Obviously, they ZHUHQ¶W DOORZHG WR VPRNH \RX NQRZ" 7KH\ FRXOGQ¶W VPRNH +DUDP 7KH ,6,6 JX\V ZRXOG VFROG WKHP +H ORRNHG DW PH and shook his head. I was like, gesturing, just have the cigaUHWWH , NQHZ KH VPRNHG \RX NQRZ" $QG KH MXVW WRRN WKH FLJarette and nodded at me. I nodded at him. We just sat there quietly smoking together. I just though damn, what led us both here? It was a real strange moment. Outside, I would want to kill him, and he would want to kill me, but for that moment we were just two lads, just young men, like… all fucked up. , GRQ¶W NQRZ ,W ZDV VZHHW DQG VRXU DW WKH VDPH WLPH +H¶V probably dead now.

6R ,¶P VXUH \RX JHW D EXQFK RI \RXQJ DGXOWV DQG WHHQDJ HUV WKDW OLVWHQ WR 3RSXODU )URQW DVNLQJ \RX KRZ WKH\ FDQ EHFRPH D FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVW :KDW DGYLFH GR \RX QRUPDO O\ JLYH WKHP" Yeah. We get a lot of young people watching us, which is great. Our main audience is roughly 18 to 35. We did this VXUYH\ RQH WLPH ,W¶V FUD]\ EHFDXVH , KDYH D IULHQG WKDW ZRUNV

in marketing, and he was saying to me that there are people ZKHUH KH ZRUNV WKDW JHW SDLG WR JHW WKDW DXGLHQFH 7KDW¶V WKHLU whole job. We didn’t try for that, it just happened. We just did LW OLNH WKLV $QG LW¶V JUHDW ,¶P UHDOO\ JODG WKDW \RXQJ SHRSOH OLNH it.

We get a lot of young people contacting us. I just say to them, KRQHVWO\ GRQ¶W GR LW 7KDW¶V DOZD\V WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ 'RQ¶W GR LW <RX GRQ¶W ZDQW WR GLH $QG \RX FDQ GLH YHU\ HDVLO\ GXULQJ WKLV game. Like, very easily. I don’t know. If they’re going to do it, WKH\¶UH JRLQJ WR GR LW QR PDWWHU ZKDW , VD\ 3HRSOH WROG PH QRW WR GR LW , GLG LW 7KHUH¶V QRWKLQJ , FDQ GR WR VWRS WKHP EXW P\ ¿UVW SRLQW LV GRQ¶W GR LW EHFDXVH \RX FDQ GLH 6HFRQGO\ GRQ¶W do it because you won’t earn much money. You won’t get the respect you should have, and a lot of people within war reporting are very bad people. It’s a fucked up industry. I don’t mean to be negative, that’s just the reality.

I think honesty should be the main point of your work. But often, it’s not for a lot of war reporters. It’s about them and their ego. It’s about a lifestyle for them. It’s about talking about WKLQJV DW WKH EDU DQG LW¶V DERXW ZKR¶V WKH PRVW *RRG %R\ who’s the good side, what will get me the most positive attention back home… $Q\ZD\ , VD\ WR D ORW RI SHRSOH LI \RX DUH JRLQJ WR JHW LQWR LW GR \RXU UHVHDUFK SURSHUO\ $QG WKDW GRHVQ¶W MXVW PHDQ WKH KLVWRULFDO FRQWH[W ,W PHDQV ZKDW NLQG RI WHUUDLQ DUH \RX JRLQJ to be going to? What kind of car do you need when you get WKHUH" +DYH \RX ORRNHG DW D IXFNLQJ PDS RI ZKHUH \RX DUH JRLQJ" 1R 7KHQ ZK\ DUH \RX JRLQJ WKHUH" :KDW NLQG RI SHRSOH are there? What religion do they believe? What kind of subset is their religion? Will they tolerate who you are?

7KLQJV OLNH WKDW 9HU\ PLQXWH GHWDLOV ZKLFK \RX UHDOO\ KDYH to know about. I basically tell a lot of people to really focus on that stuff, because there’s not enough of that going on. ,¶YH VHHQ D ORW RI \RXQJ FRZER\V JRLQJ LQWR WKH 8NUDLQH ZDU especially right now because it’s close. I just seen the most ULGLFXORXV VKLW LQ P\ OLIH , VDZ D ¿OPPDNHU UHFHQWO\ RQ ,QVWDJUDP SOD\LQJ ZLWK D OLYH JUHQDGH LQ D IXFNLQJ FDIp LQ 8NUDLQH 0DGQHVV <RX¶UH SXWWLQJ SHRSOH¶V OLYHV LQ GDQJHU 7KDW LV SXUH stupidity. You can’t research your way out of stupidity though. $Q\ZD\ , JXHVV P\ SRLQW LV GR \RXU UHVHDUFK RQ PRUH WKDQ WKH VWRU\ 'R \RXU UHVHDUFK RQ WKH ORFDO OHYHO /LVWHQ WR ORFDOV always.

:KHQ DQG ZK\ GLG \RX HQG XS OHDYLQJ 9LFH 1HZV DQG VWDUWLQJ 3RSXODU )URQW" Well, I owe Vice my career, mostly, but the main issue was WKDW LW JRW WDNHQ RYHU E\ $PHULFDQ FRUSRUDWH SV\FKRSDWKV 6R WKHQ WKH 8. RI¿FH EHFDPH MXVW D YDVVDO WKDW ZDV UDQ YLD 6N\SH IURP WKH 86 7KDW ZDVQ¶W KRZ LW ZDV EHIRUH :H ZHUH the ones that made all the good stuff. We were pretty auWRQRPRXV EHIRUH WKDW , IHHO OLNH ZKHQ +%2 ERXJKW RXW 9LFH

ĸ 7KH PDLQ JX\ ZDV SODQQLQJ WR FKRS RXU KHDGV RII Ĺ

News, it became a dishonest and soul-less environment. I just couldn’t keep my mouth shut. I didn’t like the new managHU WKDW ZH KDG LQ WKH 8. RI¿FH HLWKHU +H ZDV QDVW\ , UHPHPber him telling us all you are not important. I don’t care about DQ\ RI \RX , VDLG KHUH ZLWKRXW XV WKH +%2 VKRZ ZRXOGQ¶W have got commissioned and you wouldn’t have a fucking job.

6R REYLRXVO\ WKH\ GLGQ¶W OLNH P\ DWWLWXGH ZKLFK LV XQGHUVWDQGable. :KHQ +%2 JRW LQYROYHG ZLWK 9LFH 1HZV WKH 9LFH ERVVHV made a new environment where people had to do what they ZHUH WROG DQG WKDW ZDV WKDW ,W ZDVQ¶W +%2 WKDW ZDQWHG WKDW Vice just decided to fall into some weird pattern of yes-man behavior because they got a big deal. I’m never going to be a yes-man, so they came to me and were like, look, we don’t like your attitude, you clearly don’t want to be here, and we ZDQW \RX WR OHDYH EXW ZH GRQ¶W ZDQW WR ¿UH \RX 'R \RX ZDQW WR OHDYH" , VDLG \HDK , GR ZDQW WR OHDYH 6R WKH\ JDYH PH £10,000 to leave without a fuss, which at the time was, to me, like a million, you know? I was on 30 grand a year at Vice.

3HDQXWV IRU WKH ZRUN , ZDV GRLQJ ,W¶V KLODULRXV , ZDV JRLQJ WR war for the wage of a middle manager in a department store. ,W ZDV FUD]\ EXW , GLGQ¶W FDUH EDFN WKHQ , ORYHG LW ,W ZDV HYerything to me.

kids out there like me. :DU UHSRUWLQJ FDQ EHFRPH D YHU\ H[FOXVLYH QLFKH XS LWV RZQ DUVH NLQG RI FOXE , ZDQWHG WR GR WKH RSSRVLWH RI WKDW 7KDW¶V why the line was always: No Frills, No Elitism. No frills, as in, nothing fancy and no elitism, as in, this is for everyone that wants to be involved, you know? I wanted to do it for WKH PLV¿WV WKH JHHNV WKH JRWKV WKH KRROLJDQV WKH ZKDWHYHU We’ve worked with everyone. But it’s not performative. It’s just whatever, so long as you’re good at what you do and have a similar ethos, cool. Like, oh you’re a communist? Cool. Oh, you’re trans? Cool. Oh, you’re whichever race? Cool. It’s all JRRG ZLWK XV 7KHUH¶V WRR PXFK IRFXV RQ SXWWLQJ SHRSOH LQWR LGHQWLW\ FDWHJRULHV 7KDW¶V VR WZLVWHG DQG LQKXPDQ :H MXVW want to work with cool people with great ideas.

7KDW VDLG WR FRQWUDGLFW P\VHOI QRZ ZH ZRXOG QHYHU HYHU ZRUN with anyone that has a problem with someone based on their ethnicity or gender or whatever. We’re very clear about that. $QWL IDVFLVP LV LPSRUWDQW 6RPHWLPHV ZH¶UH FRQVLGHUHG OHIW wing, but we’re just interested in real freedom. Freedom to be who you are, unapologetically. Other than that, we’re not interested in being part of any political scene. Not online anyway.

But anyway, I left. I had the 10 grand and still did a bit of freelance work for them now and then, but even that got fucking LQWROHUDEOH 6R , EXUQW WKURXJK JUDQG ZLWKLQ VL[ PRQWKV EHFDXVH (QJODQG LV D MRNH 6R , KDG WR JR EDFN LQWR IUHHODQFH ZRUN , ZRUNHG DV D SURGXFHU IRU D OLWWOH ZKLOH IRU D 8. EDVHG cultural media company. I was doing a lot of freelance work RQ WKH VLGH DQG , VWDUWHG 3RSXODU )URQW DERXW WKDW WLPH , IHOW like I’d gone back to just working for money because I was broke. I was lucky to be able to still do some kind of media ZRUN VXUH EXW , GLGQ¶W OLNH LW $QG , ZDV OLNH , ZDQW WR GR RQO\ what I want to do.

6R ZK\ WKH QDPH 3RSXODU )URQW"

3RSXODU )URQW ZDV HYHU\WKLQJ , NQHZ DERXW LQ P\ KHDG , had this idea, and I saw this emerging geeky anorak culture within war reporting that was getting ignored, or big outlets were stealing ideas off people. Like, known reporters were just stealing research from a guy that had 10 followers on 7ZLWWHU EXW GRLQJ DPD]LQJ ZRUN IURP KLV GHVN , WKRXJKW IXFN that. I wanted to bring those unknown people in. I wanted to PDNH LW D ZKROH WKLQJ $QG WKDW¶V ZKDW , GLG , VWDUWHG WKH SRGcast because I didn’t have any money, and that was cheap to GR 7KHQ , JRW WR WKH SRLQW ZKHUH , ZDV OLNH ULJKW ,¶P JRLQJ WR GR GRFXPHQWDULHV ZLWK LW $QG WKDW¶V ZKHQ LW UHDOO\ WRRN RII 3RSXODU )URQW LV ¿YH \HDUV ROG WKLV 0D\

$QG OLNH , VDLG EHIRUH WKH LGHD ZDV ZH GRQ¶W QHHG HYHU\ERG\ to agree on everything. You don’t need to be in the club to be a part. You just have to have the uniting features that we have, which is are you interested in war that goes underreported DQG DUH \RX LQWHUHVWHG LQ ORRNLQJ LQWR FRQÀLFW LQ D PRUH QXanced way, with more detail to make it easier to understand? ,I \RX DUH FRRO JHW RQ ERDUG $QG WKDW¶V ZK\ HYHU\ERG\ ORYHV it, I think.

,W¶V QRZ WKH IDVWHVW JURZLQJ FRQÀLFW UHSRUWLQJ SODWIRUP LQ WKH ZRUOG WKDW¶V IXOO\ LQGHSHQGHQW 7KHUH¶V QR RQH HOVH GRLQJ ZKDW we do, and no one’s doing it like we do it either. I was very conscious of making it cool, but not too cool for school. You know, as in Vice. I was always like, nah, nah, nah, I’ve never been the cool kid. I’m not a cool kid. I knew there were a lot of

, ZDV RIWHQ WROG P\ SLWFKHV ZHUH ³WRR QLFKH´ ³7KDW GRHVQ¶W need that detail. It’s not understandable. You make it too complicated.” But I disagree. I think, when you get more niche, it becomes easier to understand. Because when you get into the nitty gritty details, if you do it right—don’t get me wrong, there are really bad ways of doing it where it does become

,W ZDV D ELW RI D MRNH EHFDXVH , VDZ WKDW WKH FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVP industry was being overrun by very elitist people. “You are not in our gang” attitudes. I wanted to do the opposite of that. , ZDQWHG WR EH OLNH IXFN \RXU GHFRUXP DQG \RXU XQL 6R WKH LGHD ZDV LW¶V WKH 3RSXODU )URQW IRU WKH /LEHUDWLRQ RI &RQÀLFW -RXUQDOLVP SOD\LQJ RQ WKH ZD\ PLOLWDQW JURXSV ZRXOG XVH WKDW WHUP $QG WKH LGHD ZDV ZH DUH OLEHUDWLQJ LW IURP DOO WKH ROG JXDUG \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" $OO WKHVH SHRSOH ZLWK D VWLFN up their arse.

:KDW LQWHUHVWHG \RX LQ IRFXVLQJ RQ WKH QLFKH GHWDLOV RI PRGHUQ ZDUIDUH DQG XQGHUUHSRUWHG FRQÀLFWV"

PRUH FRPSOLFDWHG²EXW LI \RX GR LW ULJKW LQ D VLPSOL¿HG ZD\ which means you’ve done your research properly, and know KRZ WR H[SUHVV DQG H[SODLQ LW LW EHFRPHV PRUH XQGHUVWDQGable. <RX UHDOL]H ZK\ WKLV JURXS LV VR SLVVHG RII DW WKDW JURXS 7KLV little thing happened here. You know? Every group will tell \RX ZK\ EXW WKHUH¶V PDQ\ RWKHU UHDVRQV 7KHUH DUH RWKHU UHDsons that they don’t talk about, you know what I’m saying?

6R IRU PH LW ZDV D QR EUDLQHU ,¶P D QHUG , XVHG WR KDYH D VSUHDGVKHHW ZLWK HYHU\ VLQJOH .XUGLVK PLOLWDQW JURXS¶V QDPH HDFK JURXS¶V PXVLF ÀDJ DOO VRUWV RI GLIIHUHQW WKLQJV DQG UHDOO\ QHUG\ GHWDLOV ,W EHFDPH H[WUHPHO\ HDV\ WR XQGHUVWDQG ,W¶V a very complicated topic, but when you get into the details WKLQJV EHFRPH FOHDU 6R , MXVW XVH WKDW HOHPHQW ZLWK HYHU\thing. )RU H[DPSOH (O &KDSR¶V VRQ ZDV DUUHVWHG EXW ZK\ ZHUH people killed when they tried to arrest this guy? Well, where he’s from, everybody loves him because he’s the only one that really helps the people. Yes, they’re cartels, but the govHUQPHQW LV VKLW DV ZHOO 6R ZKHQ \RX JHW LQWR WKH GHWDLO \RX get a real understanding.

7KH XQGHU UHSRUWHG VWXII LV SXUHO\ EHFDXVH WKHUH DUH VR PDQ\ ZDUV JRLQJ RQ ULJKW QRZ DQG LI LW GRHVQ¶W LQYROYH 1$72 RU LW GRHVQ¶W LQYROYH D 1$72 DOO\ EHLQJ VHHQ DV D KHUR WKHQ LW MXVW GRHVQ¶W JHW UHSRUWHG DV PXFK , PHDQ ORRN DW $UPHQLD 7KH $UPHQLDQV DUH VFUHZHG ULJKW QRZ 7KH\¶UH QHDUO\ GD\V LQWR EHLQJ EDUULFDGHG LQ $UWVDNK 3HRSOH DUH JRLQJ WR VWDUYH EHFDXVH WKH WRWDOLWDULDQ VWDWH RI $]HUEDLMDQ JDYH WKH (8 VRPH JDV DQG WKH $UPHQLDQV KDYH KDG KHOS IURP 5XVVLD %DVLFDOO\ WKH :HVWHUQ FRPPXQLW\ KDV JRQH IXFN $UPHQLDQV :KLFK is hilarious considering they talk about democratic Western YDOXHV 7KHUH¶V QR VXFK WKLQJ 7KHUH¶V RQO\ VHOI SUHVHUYDWLRQ We decided we don’t want to be involved in that he said, she said, this side, that side. If someone’s getting killed, we want WR NQRZ ZK\ $QG ZH¶UH JRLQJ WR EH KRQHVW DERXW LW :H DUH not what’s seen as traditionally objective, but we’re always KRQHVW \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" :H WHOO WKH WUXWK UHJDUGLQJ $UPHQLDQ ZDUV DQG VRPH SHRSOH VD\ RK \RX VDLG $]HUEDLMDQ¶V a totalitarian state, so you are not objective. I would argue WKDW LW¶V DQ REMHFWLYH RSLQLRQ 7KDW LW LV D IDFW 7KH\ DUH 7R VD\ otherwise is literally a lie. It’s not like one man’s dictator is anRWKHU PDQ¶V SUHVLGHQW 7KHUH DUH YHU\ FOHDU FXW UXOHV WR ZKDW LV DQG LVQ¶W GHVWUXFWLRQ RI IUHHGRP 3HRSOH KDYH VHHQ RXU VKLW and know that we’re going to tell them what’s happening on the ground. We’re not going to try to please one side or the other. We’re just telling what is happening.

:KR DOO PDNHV XS 3RSXODU IURQW¶V FRUH WHDP" It’s like mostly me in terms of the majority of how things work. :H GR KDYH D URVWHU RI FDPHUDPHQ ZH ZRUN ZLWK EXW 3RSXODU

Front doesn’t make enough money to hire anyone as staff or anything like that. Everyone has to be a part of the team on a freelance basis, but we have a core team of people that we DOZD\V XVH )RU H[DPSOH -RKQQ\ 3LFNXS LV RQH RI RXU FDPHUDPHQ JUHDW JX\ +H LV GH¿QLWHO\ D ELJ SDUW RI WKH WHDP /XNH 3LHUFH DV ZHOO +H¶V RQH RI RXU FDPHUDPHQ DQG GH¿QLWHO\ D PDLQ JX\ RQ WKH WHDP &RQDOO .HDUQH\ KDVQ¶W GRQH WKDW PXFK for us in a while, but he’s always been a part of the team. +H¶V EHHQ WKHUH IURP GD\ RQH +H¶V MXVW EXV\ GRLQJ KLV RZQ IUHHODQFH VKLW $GDP 'R\OH RU 6SLFHEDJ DV KH LV NQRZQ LV RXU PDLQ DUW GHVLJQHU , ZRXOG VD\ 6DP %ODFN¶V WKH RQO\ RWKHU FRQVWDQW WHDP PHPEHU +H ZRXOGQ¶W VD\ WKLV EXW LW ZRXOGQ¶W EH ZKHUH LW LV ZLWKRXW KLP +H GRHV DOO WKH PXVLF <HDK WKH PXVLF¶V GRSH Yeah, the music is a big part of the aesthetic, which is one of the most important parts. I understand that no one’s going WR ZDWFK LI LW ORRNV GXOO DQG ERULQJ 7KH\ PLJKW LI WKH\¶UH D hundred years old, but if they’re a teenager, which is who we want to watch our shit, they’re just not going to pay attention

:KHQ , ¿UVW VWXPEOHG XSRQ 3RSXODU )URQW , WKRXJKW WKH DHVWKHWLFV ZHUH UHDOO\ FRRO 7KHQ , MXVW VWDUWHG OLVWHQLQJ DQG JHWWLQJ LQWR LW ,W¶V UHDOO\ RSHQHG P\ H\HV WR D ORW RI VWXII <HDK ,¶P JODG 7KDW¶V H[DFWO\ KRZ ZH ZDQW LW ,¶YH KDG VR PDQ\ SHRSOH ZLWK D VLPLODU VWRU\ 7KH\ IRXQG 3RSXODU )URQW because it looked cool, and then they’re like, oh, I didn’t know DERXW WKLV 1RZ , GR 7KHUH \RX JR :H¶YH GRQH ZKDW ZH VHW out to do. We pulled you in, but then we deliver substance. It’s not fashion before function. It’s all fashion, all function.

:KDW DUH WKH LQVSLUDWLRQV RU LQÀXHQFHV WKDW VKDSHG 3RS XODU )URQW¶V DHVWKHWLF DQG VW\OH RI UHSRUWLQJ" 9LVXDOO\ &.< ZDV D ELJ LQVSLUDWLRQ (DUO\ VNDWH YLGHRV V HUD JUDSKLF GHVLJQ $OVR WKH YLEH RI ',< %DFN\DUG :UHVWOLQJ W\SH VWXII %HIRUH <RX7XEH H[LVWHG

%DFN\DUG ZUHVWOLQJ"

WR LW 6R \RX KDYH WR PDNH LW ORRN FRRO $QG LW¶V IXQ WR PDNH shit look cool. It’s that simple. But also, it’s war. It’s serious.

We never show something gnarly and put things out of conWH[W /LNH LI D ZRPDQ LV FU\LQJ ZLWK KHU NLG LQMXUHG ZH¶UH QRW JRLQJ WR WKHQ SXW GUXP DQG EDVV RYHU LW 3HRSOH WKDW FULWLFL]H our style as insensitive have never paid proper attention to it.

If it’s a riot, we make it look energetic and wild. Why? Because that’s what it feels like to be there. Our idea is to make it feel like what it feels like on the ground. Obviously, you’ll never really feel it, but if you can edit that atmosphere in with the aesthetics, the music, and the cut, then that’s solid. You can see what a riot looks like, but the way we edit, we create a feeling, you know what I mean? Which sounds a bit up its own arse, but it’s true. If we can do that, then I think that’s great. I WKLQN WKDW¶V UHDO SURSHU ¿OPPDNLQJ

<HDK ZKHUH WKH\¶UH VHWWLQJ ¿UH WR WKHPVHOYHV DQG MXPSLQJ on barb wire. I remember watching the videos, and the way WKH\¶G PDNH LW ZDV VR UDWFKHW ,W ZDV ',< DQG WKH\¶G HGLWed it on the actual camcorder. I actually did this when I was \RXQJ :KHQ ZH ¿UVW VWDUWHG ¿OPLQJ VWXII ZH GLG LW RQ D +L video camera and would edit by pressing record on the tape LQ D 9+6 :KHQ ZH ZDQWHG WR GR D FXW ZH¶G KDYH WR SUHVV stop, fast forward the camera, and then press record again RQ WKH 9+6 PDQXDOO\ GRLQJ D FXW $QG WKDW¶V KRZ WKHVH PDG Backyard Wrestling people would do it. I like to have some QRG WR WKDW VW\OH VWLOO LQ RXU HGLWV 6RPH SHRSOH WKLQN RXU HGLWV are messy but I think it’s raw. It’s meant to be jumpy like that sometimes. I think it looks cool and it really owes to riot footage. Cause that’s what it feels like, right? Like, one minute, RQH WKLQJ¶V KDSSHQLQJ DQG WKH QH[W DQRWKHU WKLQJ LV KDSSHQing.

We do it less now because we try and keep up with current LGHDV EXW ZKHQ ZH ¿UVW VWDUWHG 9DSRUZDYH ZDV UHDO ELJ DQG ZH LQFRUSRUDWHG WKDW LQWR 3RSXODU )URQW %XW LW ZDVQ¶W MXVW WKH sound, it was the aesthetic and the ideology behind it. Vaporwave was very anti-corporate, but without being like obviously a current ism, you know? It wasn’t this or that or whatever boring theories are in fashion right now. It wasn’t that. It was real grassroots. It had its own soul, and no one could bottle LW 7KDW ZDV UHDOO\ D ELJ LQVSLUDWLRQ DW WKH VWDUW , UHDG D ERRN DW WKH EHJLQQLQJ RI 3RSXODU )URQW FDOOHG ³%DEEOLQJ &RUSVH 7KH &RPPRGL¿FDWLRQ RI *KRVWV´ ZKLFK LV D YHU\ QLFKH QHUG\ book about the culture behind Vaporwave and where it came from, and what it really stands for. It felt like a continuation of WKH ROG VFKRRO $QRQ\PRXV 2FFXS\ LGHRORJ\ WKDW , FDPH XS LQ It’s like a nomadic anti-authoritarianism.

$OVR RXU VW\OH LV RIWHQ YHU\ WRQJXH LQ FKHHN 7R EH KRQHVW that’s an inspiration we took from old war propaganda postHUV 7KH\ ZHUH VR IXQQ\ VRPHWLPHV 3RSXODU )URQW KDV EHHQ OLNH WKDW IURP WKH VWDUW 6RPH WKLQJV ZH GR KDYH SHRSOH VD\LQJ ³RK WKDW¶V UHDOO\ FKHHN\ EXW LW¶V IXQQ\ DQG WUXH´ 7KDW¶V ¿QH , WKLQN /LNH WKH 81 W VKLUW KDV ZH VHOO KDV ³7KH 81 LV 'HHSO\ &RQFHUQHG´ SULQWHG RQ LW ZLWK WKH ORJR RI WKH 81 VLJQ RQ ¿UH It’s that whole cheeky aesthetic and vibe. You meet people OLNH WKDW DW ZDU \RX NQRZ" 7KDW¶V SDUW RI LW ,W¶V SHRSOH WKDW believe in something, but they’re also jaded by the fuckery of WKH LQGXVWULDO PLOLWDU\ FRPSOH[ RU ZKDWHYHU HOVH LW LV WKDW¶V SXWting the foot on their neck. Now obviously we’re not earnestly VD\LQJ OHW¶V EXUQ GRZQ WKH 81 7KDW¶V QRQVHQVH :H¶UH MXVW highlighting issues with such a huge monolith in a quick and funny way is all. $OVR WR D OHVVHU GHJUHH WKH ZKROH :HLUG 7ZLWWHU VFHQH LQVSLUHG XV D ELW ,W¶V QRW VXFK D ELJ WKLQJ QRZ EXW :HLUG 7ZLWWHU ZDV DQ LQVSLUDWLRQ EDFN WKHQ :KHQ ZH ¿UVW JRW 3DWUHons, the dancing alien meme was about so we used that to DQQRXQFH LW 3HRSOH ZHUH OLNH ZKDW WKH IXFN KDV WKLV JRW WR GR ZLWK ZDU" 1RWKLQJ 7KDW¶V WKH SRLQW <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" It’s not that we’re clever or anything like that. I just think why not be weird sometimes? Make people go “eh?” $OVR UHJDUGLQJ LQVSLUDWLRQV ROG VFKRRO SXQN VWXII :KHQ , VD\ SXQN , GRQ¶W PHDQ SHUKDSV ZKDW $PHULFDQV ZLOO FRQVLGHU SXQN , WKLQN $PHULFDQ SXQN ZDV YHU\ FRRO /LNH HVSHFLDOO\ LQ WKH QLQHWLHV DQG V 6WUDLJKW HGJH FXOWXUH ZDV GH¿QLWHO\ D very big thing that we like. But I don’t mean that kind of punk.

I mean the Eastern European kind of neo-punk, which is very GLIIHUHQW ,W¶V KDUG WR H[SODLQ ,W¶V OLNH VWUHHWZHDU VW\OH EXW LW¶V

HU OHJLW PHGLD RUJDQL]DWLRQ KDV MRLQW VFUHHQLQJV ZLWK IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ ¿UPV EXW ZH GLG D VFUHHQLQJ RI RQH RI RXU GRFXPHQWDULHV ZLWK 6W 3DXOL KRROLJDQV ODVW \HDU ,W GRHVQ¶W KDSSHQ LI you’re just trying to steal stuff from people’s lives. We really appreciate and respect how sacred things are to people.

6R DOO LQ DOO , WKLQN ZH¶YH LQFRUSRUDWHG WKLQJV ZH OLNH IURP outside of war into it because there’s a lot of people like that.

It wasn’t us that started this, it was already there, but people felt that before us they had to conform to a certain style and ZD\ RI EHLQJ 1RZ , WKLQN SHRSOH UHDOL]H \RX GRQ¶W KDYH WR I know they do because people have messaged me saying, hey, before this I thought I had to hide that I was this person.

No, you don’t. You don’t have to be a suit and tie and posh to NQRZ DERXW FRQÀLFW ,W¶V LURQLF WKDW PRVW RI WKH SHRSOH KROGLQJ WKH NH\V²WKH DQDO\VWV 7KLQN 7DQNV WKH LQYHVWRUV²DUH XSper class or very stuffy, conservative type people, when the reality is that most people that are actually involved in war are the opposite. War is fought by shitbags like us [laughs]. , JXHVV ZH MXVW ZDQWHG WR EULQJ WKDW FXOWXUH EDFN 7KDW¶V ZK\ ZH VD\ 3RSXODU )URQW LV IRU WKH SHRSOH ZKLFK VRXQGV NLQG RI FRUQ\ EXW WKDW¶V ¿QH :KHQ ZH VD\ SHRSOH WKH SHRSOH WKDW know it’s for them know what we mean.

:KHQ \RX VWDUWHG 3RSXODU )URQW EDFN LQ 0D\ RI LW ZDV RQO\ D SRGFDVW 'LG \RX SODQ IRU LW WR EHFRPH ZKDW LW LV WRGD\"

also punk, you know? It’s 1312 culture, but without highly political 1312 culture, you know what I mean? It’s different. It’s from people who have a real reason to hate the cops, not just VRPH DFWLYLVW VD\LQJ LW RQ 7ZLWWHU European ultra culture is also a big inspiration for us. Not on a vulture vibe either. We’re associated or we’re friendly with these people and they have very cool scenes. I mean no oth-

I want to say yes, as if I followed this clever path… but no. I remember at the start thinking where am I headed with this? , UHPHPEHU EHLQJ UHDOO\ XQVXUH DQG WKHQ ZLWKLQ WKH ¿UVW HSLVRGHV LW H[SORGHG ,¶P QRW H[DJJHUDWLQJ 7KH QXPEHUV H[SORGHG DQG , ZDV OLNH ZKDW WKH IXFN" 7KLV LV ZRUNLQJ :LWKLQ WKH ¿UVW VL[ PRQWKV SHRSOH VWDUWHG VD\LQJ LW ZDV D QHZ W\SH of journalism. I was unsure of my ability to build something EDFN WKHQ WKRXJK EXW LW ZRUNHG $Q\RQH FRXOG KDYH GRQH WKLV though. I just happened to, you know?

:KHQ 3RSXODU )URQW VWDUWHG ZH¶G GRQH RQH VPDOO YLGHR WKLQJ but I was really unsure if we could do it properly. One night , ZDV FKDWWLQJ WR WKLV %UD]LOLDQ ZRPDQ ZKR ZDV RQH RI WKH IHZ SHRSOH JLYLQJ PH HQFRXUDJHPHQW WR PDNH 3) VRPHWKLQJ bigger. I was mad in love with her man [laughs]. We had great times. We don’t even speak anymore actually. I hate that. But anyway, she was one of the few people around me who was like you can make this much bigger! $W WKH WLPH VKH ZDV LQ )UDQFH DQG , UHPHPEHU KHU VD\LQJ WR me, you should cover the Yellow Vest stuff. I was like, what on D SRGFDVW" 6KH VDLG QR \RX VKRXOG FRPH DQG ¿OP LW 6KH VDLG MXVW GR LW IRU 3RSXODU )URQW GRQ¶W VHOO LW MXVW GR LW , GRQ¶W NQRZ ZK\ EXW WKH IDFW VKH WKRXJKW WKDW ZDV YLDEOH OLW D ¿UH XQGHU PH DQG , GLG LW 7KDW ZDV WKH ¿UVW SURSHU YLGHR ZRUN ZH did, covering the Yellow Vest protests. We really went into the GHWDLOV WRR 7KH PDLQVWUHDP ZHUH YHU\ PXFK VD\LQJ 7KLV LV an uprising and the rioters are being a little bit violent with the police being a bit violent back to them. ,W ZDVQ¶W OLNH WKDW 6XUH WKH ULRWHUV ZHUH EHLQJ YLROHQW EXW you’re talking about people throwing bricks and rocks versus SROLFH OLWHUDOO\ WDNLQJ SHRSOH¶V H\HV RXW 6HYHUDO SHRSOH GLHG French police are just unbelievable. In my travels, the only police I’ve come across that are worse than French police is 7XUNLVK SROLFH DQG WKDW¶V VD\LQJ VRPHWKLQJ (YHQ *HUPDQ SROLFH DUH EHWWHU WKDQ WKH )UHQFK FRSV DQG WKH\¶UH EUXWDO 6R we documented almost every single ‘very serious’ injury in a PLQXWH GRF DQG LW WRRN RII IURP WKHUH ,W GLG ZHOO 7KDW¶V ZKHQ ZH JRW D ORW RI DWWHQWLRQ 7KDQNV IRU WKH HQFRXUDJHPHQW Reggie.

7KHQ HYHQWXDOO\ DIWHU D IHZ \HDUV ZH PDGH 3ODVWLF 'HIHQFH 7KDW¶V ZKHQ VKLW EOHZ XS IRU XV 6R QRZ LURQLFDOO\ HQRXJK we’re more known for our documentaries than the podcast, and the podcast has nearly 200 episodes and millions of downloads and we’ve only made about 10 documentaries.

Only two of those have over a million views. Being on the JURXQG LV VWLOO NLQJ 7KHUH¶V QRWKLQJ OLNH :KDW \RX VHH LV D ORW better than just listening, I think. It’s a better art form for us as well… Not art form, but you know what I mean. We can get our style and ethos across a lot better in documentary form.

7R NHHS XS ZLWK WKH PRPHQWXP WKH VSHHG RI ZKLFK 3RSXODU Front is growing, and do everything we want to do, we need a ORW PRUH FDSLWDO 6R WKH IXWXUH GHSHQGV RQ FDSLWDO :H QHHG someone to come in and give us a hundred grand. We need a real proper sponsor. We have a few sponsors, and we love WKHP EXW LW¶V YHU\ OLWWOH PRQH\ 7KH\¶UH SHRSOH ZH OLNH WKH\¶UH good people, but they run small, independent businesses, and they can’t really afford to pay a lot. If we can get the money, we’ll start doing whole series and everything will get branded up. It won’t just be random doc here and random doc there.

It will be a whole series focused on one region or focused on this or that. I want to get other reporters in front of the camera, as well. I want to have a proper team. I want the whole team WR EH DEOH WR GR WKLV ZKHUH HYHU\ERG\¶V ZRUNLQJ DQG GRLQJ VWXII %XW XQWLO WKHQ \HDK LW¶V GLI¿FXOW 7KH VKRS LV JHWWLQJ UHYDPSHG VRRQ WKRXJK :H¶UH VKXWWLQJ GRZQ WKH ]LQH DQG ZH¶UH VWDUWLQJ D SURSHU TXDUWHUO\ PDJD]LQH OLNH DQ $ PDJD]LQH :H KDYH D FRPSDQ\ WKDW ZH¶UH FROODERUDWLQJ ZLWK FDOOHG (DV\ 'D\V 6WXGLR 7KH\ DUH JRRG people that are very established in their own way but want to work with us. We want independent people that are in bigger positions to reach out and say do you want to work together?

We love collaborating.

'R \RX WKLQN 3RSXODU )URQW DV D FRQFHSW ZLOO LQVSLUH RWK HU QHZV SODWIRUPV WR EHFRPH PRUH XQLTXH LQGHSHQGHQW DQG HQJDJLQJ WR D \RXQJHU DXGLHQFH" ,W DOUHDG\ LV , WKLQN 7KHUH DUH VR PDQ\ 3RSXODU )URQW FORQHV DQG , GRQ¶W PHDQ WKDW LQ D EDG ZD\ 6RPH RI WKHP FRS\ XV VR much that I think come off it, but that doesn’t matter. But then there are other people that have been inspired by us. Modern ,QVXUJHQW LV JRRG H[DPSOH 5RVH :DUIDUH KH¶V D JRRG JX\ <RX NQRZ WKHP NLQG RI SHRSOH 7KH\¶YH EHHQ LQVSLUHG E\ us, but they’ve done their own thing, you know what I mean?

5XEEHU %XOOHW WKH\¶UH LQWHUHVWLQJ $OVR ZH¶YH LQVSLUHG VHYHUDO massive news publications to report on our work. I think that’s cool.

:RXOG \RX HYHU FRQVLGHU GRLQJ FROODERUDWLRQV ZLWK ODUJHU SODWIRUPV OLNH 1HWÀL[ RU +%2 IRU D GRFXPHQWDU\ VHULHV" <HDK $QG WDON WR PRUH SHRSOH WRR $EVROXWHO\ \HDK

:KDW GRHV 3RSXODU )URQW ORRN OLNH LQ WKH IXWXUH" 7KDW LV D JRRG TXHVWLRQ DQG KRQHVWO\ LW DOO GHSHQGV RQ FDVK ÀRZ :H GR RND\ RQ WKH 3DWUHRQ LW¶V QRW EDG EXW LW¶V EHHQ VWDJQDQW IRU DERXW WZR \HDUV 6R LW¶V RQH VWHS IRUZDUG RQH step back. You lose 10, you gain 10, you lose 10, you gain 10.

It’s kind of like that.

<HDK GH¿QLWHO\ :H GR MRXUQDOLVP IRU HYHU\RQH QRW IRU RWKHU journalists. I want as many people as possible to see what ZH GR 7KDW¶V WKH ZKROH SRLQW RI MRXUQDOLVP 7KDW¶V WKH ZKROH SRLQW RI 3RSXODU )URQW ,W¶V QLFKH EXW QRW D QLFKH FOLTXH 6R I would love to do that. We actually had a conversation with 1HWÀL[ HDUO\ ODVW \HDU EXW WKDW GLGQ¶W JR YHU\ IDU :H VSRNH WR WKH GLUHFWRU 'DUUHQ $URQRIVN\ WRR ZKR ZDQWHG WR ZRUN ZLWK XV but it kind of never took shape. But I’m very open to collaborations like that. I think we can make some very original work.

:KDW DOO JRHV LQWR ¿OPLQJ D 3RSXODU )URQW GRFXPHQWDU\" ,W¶V YHU\ XQRUJDQL]HG LQ D ZD\ ,W VHHPV OLNH FKDRV EXW ZKHQ it comes together, it’s perfect. Normally, me or one of the team FRPHV XS ZLWK WKH LGHD« :KDW PDNHV D 3RSXODU )URQW GRF LV YHU\ VSHFL¿F +HUH¶V DQ H[DPSOH« 6R 7KLDJR 'H]DQ KH¶V NLQG RI RQ RXU WHDP LQ D ZD\ KH¶V RQH RI WKH ¿OPPDNHUV WKDW ZH PDGH 6LQDORD )RRW 6ROGLHU ZLWK +H HGLWHG LW DQG KH¶V MXVW LQFUHGLEOH , WKLQN KH¶V JUHDW 6R KH¶V IURP %UD]LO , UHDOO\ ZDQWHG WR ¿QG D VWRU\ LQ %UD]LO DQG , IRXQG WKLV 5HG &RPPDQGR VWRU\ :H ZDQW WR ¿OP ZLWK 5HG &RPPDQGR ZKLFK LV D PLOLWLD a drugs militia, but also a community militia. I was talking to 7KLDJR DQG KH PHQWLRQHG WKDW ZH¶G KDYH WR ZHDU 1LNH LI GLG LW +H VDLG 5HG &RPPDQGR DOO ZHDU 1LNH DQG WKHLU HQHPLHV DOO ZHDU $GLGDV :KHQ KH VDLG WKDW , NQHZ WKDW ZDV D 3RSXODU )URQW GRF 7KLQJV OLNH WKDW $QG LW¶V QRW DERXW DHVWKHWLFV ,W¶V DERXW QLFKH GHWDLOV WKDW \RX¶UH QRW JRLQJ WR ¿QG RXW DERXW LQ PRVW SODFHV 6RPHWKLQJ DV VHHPLQJO\ WULYLDO DV WKDW UHDOO\ VSHDNV YROXPHV DERXW ZKR LV ¿JKWLQJ \RXQJ PHQ IURP WKH JKHWWR 7KDW¶V D 3RSXODU )URQW GRF 7KHUH KDV WR EH PRUH OD\HUV WR LW ,W FDQ¶W MXVW EH WKH IURQWOLQH EHFDXVH WKDW¶V ZKDW WKH QHZV GRHV :H ZHQW WR 8NUDLQH DQG FRYHUHG WKH 8NUDLQH ZDU EXW ZH GLGQ¶W MXVW JR KHUH¶V WKH ZDU , PHDQ WKHUH DUH H[FHOOHQW SHRSOH GRLQJ VWXII OLNH WKDW 4XHQWLQ 6RPPHUYLOOH ,I \RX ZDQW WR ¿QG RXW ZKDW¶V KDSSHQLQJ RQ WKH IURQWOLQHV YHU\ VSHFL¿FDOO\ FKHFN RXW 4XHQWLQ 6RPPHUYLOOH +H¶V LQFUHGLEOH +H¶V RQH RI WKH EHVW ZDU UHSRUWHUV HYHU %XW that’s not what we do. We do things differently. )RU H[DPSOH DQWL IDVFLVW IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQV 5XVVLDQ SDUWLsans, you know what I mean? We do things that are different, that other people can’t do. I’ve spent 10 years cultivating this style and this access. It’s not always that easy. It takes a lot. :KDW W\SH RI FDPHUDV GR \RX WDNH WR WKH IURQWOLQH" :H XVH DQ )6 RU DQ )6 7KDW¶V RXU JRRG FDPHUDV /XNH KDV D GLIIHUHQW NLQG RI FDPHUD +H ORYHV LW , GRQ¶W UHDOO\ OLNH it, but it’s good for run and gun riot stuff. I’m also a big adYRFDWH RI WKH $ 6LL 7KDW¶V D JUHDW FDPHUD , WKLQN WKHUH¶V DQ

$ 6LLL QRZ $Q\RQH WKDW ZDQWV WR JHW VWDUWHG LI \RX FDQ DIIRUG DQ $ 6LL WKH\¶UH SUREDEO\ DERXW QRZ RQ 03% ZLWKRXW D OHQV -XVW EX\ D NLW OHQV LI \RX FDQ¶W DIIRUG DQ\WKLQJ HOVH , bought a kit lens for mine when I was skint. It’s cost me like 20 quid. It looks shit, but it’s better than nothing. We used some VKLW FDPHUDV DW WKH VWDUW OLNH ¿[HG OHQV EXOOVKLW %XW QRZ ZH¶UH trying to get things a little bit better.

'R \RX KDYH DQ\ KRUURU VWRULHV DERXW JRLQJ RXW WR D FRQ ÀLFW ]RQH RU WKH IURQW OLQHV RI D ZDU DQG KDYLQJ D EXQFK RI WHFKQLFDO LVVXHV ZLWK \RXU HTXLSPHQW" 1RW UHDOO\ :H DOZD\V ¿QG D ZD\ :H¶YH KDG SUREOHPV ZLWK sound, which is pretty annoying. I’m very loud. We’ve had a few of our things broken and cracked in riots, but generally, we’ve been lucky with that.

+RZ GR \RX ¿QG WKH ULJKW ¿[HU" +DYH \RX KDG DQ\ EDG H[SHULHQFHV ZLWK D ¿[HU" :LWK 3RSXODU )URQW" 1R EXW ZKHQ , ZRUNHG DW 9LFH WKHUH ZHUH VRPH EDG H[SHULHQFHV 7KH EDG H[SHULHQFHV ZHUH DOZD\V MXVW ¿[HUV EHLQJ OD]\ /LNH WKH\ MXVW GLGQ¶W JLYH D VKLW DERXW \RX 7KH\ MXVW ZDQWHG WR JHW SDLG DQG WKDW¶V QRW RND\ ,W¶V $ IXFNLQJ ZDU &RPH RQ 7KHUH¶V D OLWWOH ELW PRUH WR LW WKDQ MXVW JHWWLQJ SDLG $UH \RX UHDOO\ ULVNLQJ \RXU OLIH MXVW WR JHW SDLG" 'R \RX QRW FDUH KRZ \RXU RZQ IXFNLQJ FRXQWU\ JHWV portrayed to the world.

7KHUH¶V D ¿[HU WKDW XVHG WR ZRUN ZLWK XV LQ 8NUDLQH +H¶V great. Everyone else hates him, but I actually really like him. +H¶V NLQG RI FUD]\ EXW KH¶V D JRRG JX\ 7KH SUREOHP LV WKDW KH¶V YHU\ RSLQLRQDWHG +H¶V RSLQLRQDWHG WR WKH SRLQW ZKHUH , WKLQN KH OLWHUDOO\ ZDQWHG WR ¿JKW PH RQH WLPH RYHU EDVLFDOO\ QRWKLQJ +H ZHQW QXWV :H JRW LQWR Q DUJXPHQW 7KDW JRW UHDOO\ heavy. But in the end, he came out, hugged me, and was like I’m really sorry. I knew him very well, so it didn’t matter to me.

7KDW ZDV ¿QH , VDLG VRUU\ WRR DQG ZH ZHUH ¿QH DJDLQ :H had an issue there, but he was actually really cool in the end. :H EHFDPH HYHQ FORVHU IULHQGV IURP LW 6R , ZRXOGQ¶W UHDOO\ call that a nightmare. It’s just the way I work and the way I am.

For a lot of reporters, that would be a living nightmare. But PH DQG P\ PDWH 3KLO ZH ORYHG ZRUNLQJ ZLWK KLP EHFDXVH KH ZDV FUD]\ EXW YHU\ FDXWLRXV ,¶YH ZRUNHG ZLWK ¿[HUV WKDW DUH not scared of death, and I will never work with them again.

3HRSOH WKDW DUH QRW VFDUHG WR GLH DUH WKH ODVW SHRSOH \RX ZDQW to work with at war because they’ll get you killed.

RI WKH WLPH DOO WKH ¿[HUV ,¶YH ZRUNHG ZLWK KDYH MXVW EHHQ absolute fucking angels. I mean, they’re the real unspoken KHURHV RI FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVP WR EH KRQHVW ZLWK \RX 7KH\ UHally are.

:KDW¶V WKH HQHUJ\ OLNH RQ WKH IURQWOLQHV" It really is energy. It’s a certain energy. I’m not into holistics or anything like that, but I believe in energy. You feel it in the fucking air, you know? Everybody else that’s been there will tell you. You can all feel it. You can feel shit coming before it FRPHV VRPHWLPHV , VZHDU WR *RG LW¶V VR ZHLUG ,W¶V HWKHUHDO 6RPHWLPHV ZKHQ VRPHWKLQJ¶V DERXW WR NLFN RII \RX PD\ KHDU VRPHWKLQJ LQ WKH GLVWDQFH DQG QRW UHDOL]H \RX KHDU LW 0D\EH WKDW¶V WKH H[SODQDWLRQ , GRQ¶W NQRZ 7KH IURQWOLQH LV D YHU\ IULHQGO\ SODFH LQ D ORW RI ZD\V ZKLFK sounds really strange because it’s one of the harshest environments you could ever be in, but there’s a thing where everything is stripped back. You can’t be a poser on the frontline.

3HRSOH WU\ EXW LW QHYHU ODVWV :KHQ GHDWK LV WKDW FORVH DQG NLOOing is that close, you can’t bullshit, you know? I think that is a beautiful environment at the same time as being a very awful, terrible environment. It shouldn’t have to be like that, but it is. $QG WKH HQHUJ\ LV K\SHU FKDUJHG EHFDXVH RI WKDW %XW LW¶V FHUWDLQO\ IULHQGO\ LQ D YHU\ P\VWHULRXV ZD\ $QG ZKDW I will say is even people that you are not particularly friendly with or even friends with or may never see again… if you’ve EHHQ RQ WKH IURQWOLQH WRJHWKHU \RX¶YH VKDUHG D ERQGLQJ H[SHrience in a way that will stay with you forever, I think. Which is cool, but sad at the same time.

'R \RX VWLOO NHHS LQ FRQWDFW ZLWK WKH JX\V RI +RRGV +RRGV .ODQ" <HDK , WDON WR $QWRQ RU KLV ZLIH UHJXODUO\ 2I HYHU\WKLQJ ,¶YH made, they’re some of the people that I feel the most genuine friendship with after working with them like. I really respect them for what they do and how they look out for each other. It WDNHV D ORW WR EH WKH RQO\ DQWL IDVFLVW KRROLJDQ ¿UP LQ 8NUDLQH 7KHLU DOVR YHU\ QLFH SHRSOH OLNH UHDOO\ VZHHW SHRSOH $QWRQ¶V ZLIH HYHQ FDPH IURP 8NUDLQH WR +DPEXUJ WR EH DW WKH VKRZ and represent them while they’re on the frontline. ,Q \RX ¿OPHG D GRFXPHQWDU\ ZLWK 7KH *XDUGLDQ ZKHUH \RX YLVLWHG D IDU ULJKW FKLOGUHQ¶V FDPS UXQ E\ WKH $]RY %DWWDOLRQ 7KRVH NLGV KDYH WR EH DURXQG RU VR E\ QRZ ULJKW" Oh yeah. I mean, some of them are probably dead by now from the war, no doubt. We interviewed a girl that was about 18 at the time. Not the one with ‘white pride’ tattooed on the back of her legs. I actually made friends with her years latHU 6KH PHVVDJHG PH DQG KDG ZDONHG DZD\ IURP DOO RI WKDW 6KH¶V GH¿QLWHO\ QRW D 1D]L $Q\ZD\ ZH PDGH IULHQGV DQG , KHOSHG KHU DQG KHU ER\IULHQG HVFDSH 8NUDLQH 6KH¶V OHIW WKH FRXQWU\ EHFDXVH KHU ÀDW JRW ERPEHG LQ .\LY ,W ZDV YHU\ ZHLUG WR VHH KHU SURJUHVVLRQ \RX NQRZ" 6KH¶V FRPSOHWHO\ GLIIHUHQW now. :KDW , ZLOO VD\ DERXW $]RY LV WKDW ZKLOVW LW¶V GH¿QLWHO\ WDNHQ RQ

a new form, the idea that they’re not still fundamentally a farULJKW RUJDQL]DWLRQ LV DEVXUG 7KH\ DEVROXWHO\ VWLOO DUH DQG WKH whitewashing of their political views by so many reporters is a VSLW LQ WKH IDFH WR HYHU\RQH $]RY KDV EXOOLHG DQG DWWDFNHG IRU being different.

:KDW GR \RX QRWLFH DERXW FRPPXQLWLHV LQ $UWVDNK ,UDT 6\ULD DQG (DVWHUQ 8NUDLQH ZKR KDYH KDG D ORQJ KLVWRU\ ZLWK FRQVWDQW ZDU FRQÀLFW DQG JHQHUDWLRQDO WUDXPD" I think that they’re all doing a lot better than we would in the West if we had to live under that. I think if the wars that are happening in their countries came to Western Europe or $PHULFD \RX ZRXOG VHH UHDO ZDU FULPHV \RX NQRZ" <RX VHH ULJKW ZLQJHUV WDON DERXW SHRSOH LQ WKH 0LGGOH (DVW IRU H[DPSOH as if they’re beasts. Bro, if that shit came to where you are, then you would see real beasts. I mean, look at us. We’re the ones that conquered the whole world through violence. It’s in us, it’s ready, it’s just right now we don’t have to do that. It’s arrogant to look down on anyone living in war if you’re at peace. , WKLQN SHRSOH OLYLQJ LQ WKHVH UHJLRQV DUH YHU\ UHVLOLHQW 7KH\ UHDOO\ KDYH DFFHSWHG VXFK D KDUG ZD\ RI H[LVWHQFH EHFDXVH most of the world doesn’t care about them, and it’s very fucked up, but it is how it is. You can’t change it. I think they’re very DZDUH WKDW \RX FDQ¶W FKDQJH LW FRPSOHWHO\ $W WKH VDPH WLPH they’re usually so friendly and full of life. I don’t know how they do it.

+RZ GR SDUHQWV SUHSDUH WKHLU FKLOGUHQ IRU JURZLQJ XS LQ WKDW NLQG RI HQYLURQPHQW" 'R WKH NLGV NQRZ ZKDW¶V JRLQJ RQ" 7KH NLGV JURZ XS YHU\ IDVW 7KH\ DOO NQRZ 7KH\¶UH DOO YHU\ DZDUH <RX FDQ VHH LW LQ WKHLU H\HV <RX MXVW NQRZ 7KH\¶UH ZKDW , FDOO µDIIHFWHG¶ 7KH\ MXVW NQRZ (VSHFLDOO\ WKH .XUGLVK FKLOGUHQ /LNH« LW¶V EH\RQG PDQ 7KH\ NQRZ ZKDW¶V KDSSHQLQJ and they all have family members that are dead because of VRPH LQMXVWLFH VRPH RSSUHVVLRQ VRPH KHOO 7KH\¶UH DOO YHU\ DZDUH ,W¶V OLNH ZKHUH¶V \RXU XQFOH" +H¶V GHDG :KDW DERXW

\RXU EURWKHU" +H¶V GHDG &RXVLQ" 'HDG :K\" %HFDXVH KH wanted to liberate his country or maybe he was just walking home in the wrong direction. It’s that deep.

6R WKH\¶UH DOO YHU\ DZDUH RI ZKDW¶V JRLQJ RQ HVSHFLDOO\ DV soon as war comes to their country. You can just see their innocence being torn away immediately. It’s so unbelievably sad. It just makes them grow up very fast. It’s depressing. I feel like children are the only pure thing on earth, and to see the way they’re forced to understand that literally a bad perVRQ ZDQWV WR NLOO WKHP $QG LW LV DFWXDOO\ WKDW VLPSOH $V PXFK as I’m going on about the nuances, sometimes it’s literally that VLPSOH 7KDW JX\ RYHU WKHUH ZDQWV \RX GHDG EHFDXVH RI ZKR \RX DUH ,W¶V FUD]\

1HDUO\ HYHU\ WLPH , JHW RQ VRFLDO PHGLD , VHH YLGHRV RI GURQH ERPELQJV ,Q ZKDW ZD\ KDV WHFKQRORJ\ FKDQJHG WKH PRGHUQ EDWWOH¿HOG" 7KDW VKLW LV IDVFLQDWLQJ 3RSXODU )URQW UHDOO\ FDPH RI DJH LQ that period, transitioning from old school to new school. It’s still in the process, but like you just said, the advent of the drone bomb with commercial drones and a fucking mortar round attached to it is a new technology that just came straight LQ 3HRSOH DUHQ¶W HYHQ VKRFNHG QRZ ZKHQ WKH\ VHH LW :LWKLQ the space of three years, it’s not shocking to see homemade GURQH ERPEV ,W¶V FUD]\ , WKLQN ' SULQWHG ZHDSRQV DUH WKH IXWXUH RI ZDUIDUH DV ZHOO ,W¶V KDSSHQLQJ HYHU\ZKHUH 7KH IXWXUH LV JRLQJ WR EH VR ZHLUG 7KH\¶YH JRW ' SULQWHG URFNHW ODXQFKHUV QRZ 6RPH JX\V LQ

$PHULFD PDGH WKHP 6R VKLW¶V JRLQJ WR JHW FUD]\ ,W¶V JRLQJ WR EH OLNH 0HWDO *HDU 6ROLG >ODXJKV@ 1RW \HW PD\EH EXW ZKHQ were old, you know what I mean? , FDQ¶W VD\ WKLV LV IRU VXUH«EHFDXVH , MXVW VDZ WKLV YLGHR RQOLQH EXW VRPH JX\ ZDV VD\LQJ WKDW $, FDQ XVH SHRSOH¶V :L )L DQG WUDFN \RX PRYLQJ WKURXJKRXW \RXU KRXVH <HDK« ZH¶UH IXFNHG 7KHUH¶V QR FRPLQJ EDFN IURP WKLV ,W¶V over, in terms of privacy, you know? It’s a new phase and maybe something will come from that, but it’s essentially over IRU QRZ OLNH SULYDF\ LV GRQH ,W¶V JRQH ,W¶V WRR ODWH +RQHVWly, you can’t have revolutions anymore in the western world EHFDXVH WHFKQRORJ\ KDV HYHU\WKLQJ ORFNHG GRZQ 7HFKQROogy has outworked the revolution. It just is that way. Look at &KLQD 7R TXRWH -6WDUN ³LW¶V D OLYLQJ IXFNLQJ QLJKWPDUH´ DQG LW UHDOO\ LV LI \RX¶UH D 8\JKXU DQG \RX ZDQW D WLQ\ RSLQLRQ WKDW

LVQ¶W WKH VDPH DV WKH JRYHUQPHQWV 7KHUH¶V QRWKLQJ ZH FDQ GR apart from use that technology against itself. :KLFK LV ZK\ , UHIXVH WR FRQGHPQ ' SULQWHG JXQV )LUVWO\ LW¶V QRW P\ MRE DV D UHSRUWHU WR FRQGHPQ LW 6HFRQGO\ LW¶V MXVW a tool, and all the tools that we use every day, like the internet DQG FDPHUDV DUH EHLQJ XVHG DJDLQVW XV 7KH\¶UH DV PXFK D ZHDSRQ DV D ' SULQWHG JXQ LQ P\ RSLQLRQ , WKLQN LW¶V DOO LQ the same realm. , ZDV D ORW PRUH QDLYH ZKHQ , ¿UVW PHW -6WDUN WKDQ , DP QRZ I mean, I’ll never fully agree with him, but some things that I didn’t think about too tough back then… now I’m like, that guy was on to something. When people think the West would never go despotic... It’s already getting despotic. It’s just a difIHUHQW ZD\ -XVW EHFDXVH \RX JRW 7LN7RN DQG FDQ FDOO SHRSOH D GLFNKHDG RQ 7ZLWWHU \RX WKLQN LW¶V IUHH ,W¶V QRW IXFNLQJ IUHH 0\

country brought in a law that has basically made protesting illegal. <HDK , ZDV MXVW DERXW WR DVN \RX DERXW -6WDUN ,Q 3ODVWLF 'HIHQFH \RX FDOO KLP RQH RI WKH PRVW GDQJHURXV SHRSOH 'R \RX VWLOO IHHO WKDW ZD\" <HV , WKLQN KH LV , VWLOO VWDQG E\ WKDW +H¶V RQH RI WKH PRVW GDQgerous people I’ve ever met, but I don’t think being dangerous LV JRRG RU EDG 7KDW ZDV P\ SRLQW , GRQ¶W SHUVRQDOO\ VHH GDQgerous as a negative connotation all the time. Who are you being dangerous to, you know? If someone’s attacking me, I want to attack them back. Now for them, I’m then dangerous if I start to win. But that’s good, right? Because I’m defending P\VHOI ,¶P XWLOL]LQJ WKH DELOLW\ WR EH GDQJHURXV WR VDYH P\VHOI from harm.

7DNH 8NUDLQLDQ VROGLHUV IRU H[DPSOH 7KH\¶UH GDQJHURXV SHRSOH 7KH\¶UH WUDLQHG WR NLOO :KHQ WKH\ KDYH ZHDSRQV WKH\¶UH LQFUHGLEO\ GDQJHURXV EHFDXVH WKH\¶UH JRRG DW ¿JKWLQJ DQG WKH\ KDYH D JRRG VSLULW 7KH\ ZDQW WR NHHS JRLQJ DQG WKDW¶V dangerous, but it’s good danger because they’re dangerous for Russian troops who’re invading their country and killing their kids. Maybe that’s not the correct way to talk about danger I don’t know, but that’s the way I see it. Which I’m not saying is right, but when I say someone’s dangerous, for me I don’t see it as a negative thing. In fact, in England, we actually use the word dangerous to mean that someone is really pretW\ VRPHWLPHV $V LQ ZRZ VKH¶V GDQJHURXV <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" ,W¶V QRW DOZD\V QHJDWLYH 6RPHWLPHV LW¶V SRVLWLYH $ JX\ \RX NQRZ WKDW¶V D JRRG ¿JKWHU OLNH LQ FRPEDW VSRUWV LV GDQgerous, and that’s good. We don’t mean anything bad, so it’s a tricky one. I don’t know. I should have probably used different words. I understand that the whole world isn’t going to see shit the way I see shit, and I know I’m a weird guy [laughs], but I see it how I see it. You need dangerous people to keep you safe sometimes.

<HDK WRWDOO\ 6R ZKDW¶V WKH GLIIHUHQFH EHWZHHQ VRPHRQH OLNH -6WDUN DQG 3ULQW6KRRW5HSHDW" -6WDUN¶V D IXFNLQJ OXQDWLF DQG 3ULQW6KRRW5HSHDW¶V DQ HQWHUWDLQHU >ODXJKV@ 1DK ,¶P MRNLQJ -6WDUN ZDV QXWV LQ D ZRUOG WKDW ZDV QXWV \RX NQRZ" 7KH GHSUHVVLRQ WKDW KH KDG , WHQG WR XQGHUVWDQG , JHW GHSUHVVHG DERXW WKH VDPH WKLQJV +RZ FDQ \RX QRW" :KHQ -6WDUN VDLG ZKDW DERXW WKH 8\JKXUV" 'R \RX NQRZ KRZ PXFK KH FDUHG DERXW WKDW VWXII" 7KDW ZDV VRPHWKLQJ KH¶G GRQH UHDO UHVHDUFK RQ 7KDW NHSW KLP XS DW QLJKW +H ZDV D .XUG +LV SHRSOHV KDYH EHHQ RSSUHVVHG IRU KXQGUHGV RI \HDUV \RX NQRZ" +H XQGHUVWRRG WKLQJV GLIIHUHQWO\ DQG EHFDXVH KH GLGQ¶W ¿W LQWR WKH SHUIHFW ER[ RI OHIW RU ULJKW VRPH people didn’t appreciate it the same way, but he meant what he said and he really cared. It came from a different place.

1RZ 3ULQW6KRRW5HSHDW LV D IULHQG RI PLQH +H¶V D YHU\ YHU\

YHU\ VZHHW SHUVRQ $ ORW PRUH RI DQ DFFHSWLQJ SHUVRQ WKDQ -6WDUN -6WDUN¶V ZDV YHU\ KHUH¶V P\ OLQH \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" 365 SUREDEO\ KDV WKH VDPH EHOLHIV DV -6WDUN PLQXV one or two things, but he’s just more socially adapted to the ZRUOG 7KDW¶V EDVLFDOO\ LW +H¶V UHDOO\ IXQQ\ WRR

,Q ZKDW ZD\ KDV WHFKQRORJ\ FKDQJHG WKH ZD\ ZDU LV UH SRUWHG" It depends which war, but popular wars become part of pop culture. I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing, even when the way people share the information is bad and they have no good intentions behind it, it’s still not, in the grand scheme of things, a bad thing, I don’t think. Because the more eyes on the reality of cruelty and violence in the world, the better.

Because you can’t say you didn’t know. I think ignorance can lead people in a direction they weren’t even aware of.

But at the same time, I hate the way it’s turned war reporting into a football match for some people. Like how some WXUQ WKH 8NUDLQH ZDU LQWR IXQ DQG JDPHV IRU 7ZLWWHU , WKLQN that’s disgusting, but it’s also a tactic. I mean, it’s not as much 6DLQW -DYHOLQ DV LW LV VRPH RI WKH SHRSOH DURXQG WKHP RQOLQH , NQRZ WKH JX\ WKDW VWDUWHG 6W -DYHOLQ KH LV D SHUVRQDO IULHQG of mine, and he’s been to war and seen very brutal parts of LW +H¶V D UHDOO\ JRRG SHUVRQ +H¶V UDLVHG RYHU PLOOLRQ IRU 8NUDLQH 6R WKDW FDQ¶W EH D EDG WKLQJ %XW KH¶V GRLQJ VRPH stuff to raise money, whereas a load of the people in that soFLDO PHGLD SRRO JDPLI\ ZDU EDVLFDOO\ MXVW IRU D KREE\ 7KDW¶V D bad thing. But the world is full of bad things, and you just have WR HPEUDFH LW 7KDW¶V WKH ZD\ LW JRHV :H¶OO EH WKHUH IRU LW \RX know what I’m saying? But you can’t get rid of it.

+HUH LQ $PHULFD SHRSOH WHQG WR KDYH D PLQGVHW WRZDUGV FRQÀLFW EHLQJ IRXJKW EHWZHHQ WKH JRRG JX\V YHUVXV WKH EDG JX\V +RZ ZRXOG \RX H[SODLQ WKH UHDOLW\ RI WKH FRQ ÀLFWV \RX UHSRUW RQ" 7KDW¶V D JRRG TXHVWLRQ , WKLQN XOWLPDWHO\ LWV SHRSOH Y\LQJ IRU their best interests on the highest level, you know? I look at WKH H[DPSOH RI WKH (8 ULJKW" 6R WKH (8 HVSHFLDOO\ VLQFH %UH[LW LV WKLV QHR OLEHUDO GDUOLQJ PRQROLWK ,W¶V WKH WKLQJ WKH\ love. It’s the thing they can use to project how good they are, KRZ ULJKWHRXV WKH\ DUH %XW WKH (8 LV XVLQJ DOO WKHVH IDFHV RI progressivism just to keep one of the most powerful economic partnerships in the world moving faster, which is how it is, but I ZLVK WKH\ ZRXOG GURS WKH EXOOVKLW -XVW EH KRQHVW 7KH (8 LVQ¶W progressive, not whilst it’s responsible for drowning countless UHIXJHHV LQ WKH ERWWRP RI WKH VHD YLD )URQWH[ 7KH (8 KHOSV IDFLOLWDWH WKH VODYH WUDGH LQ /LE\D 7KH (8 KDV QR PRUDOV KDV no soul. It just is what it is. It’s an economic agency that keeps WKH ZHVWHUQ SRZHU VWURQJ 7R ZDYH D ÀDJ IRU WKH (8 LV LQ P\ RSLQLRQ D PLVXQGHUVWDQGLQJ RI ZKDW WKH (8 HYHQ LV %XW , guess that’s all a perspective of ideology.

1RZ FOHDUO\ , KDYH PDQ\ LVVXHV ZLWK WKH (8 EXW ,¶P DOVR JODG LW H[LVWV 1$72 LV D YHU\ EUXWDO IRUFH IRU VRPH DQG LW makes the lives of some of the most disenfranchised awful, EXW DP , JODG 1$72 H[LVWV" <HV 2I FRXUVH 2WKHUZLVH 5XVsia would be doing even more atrocities. It’s all push and pull.

7KHUH LV QR ULJKWHRXV IRUFH RQ WKDW OHYHO WKH UHDO RQHV DUH RQ WKH JURXQG ¿JKWLQJ DQG DUHQ¶W FRQFHUQHG ZLWK WKLV VWXII /RRN there will never be anything remotely close to world peace RU XWRSLD 6R WKHUH¶V DOZD\V JRLQJ WR EH RQH EXOO\ EXOO\LQJ the rest of the world, right? I would prefer it’s one bully over the other, but I wish they would both just own up and say “ok \HDK ZH¶UH WKH EXOOLHV´ <RX NQRZ ZKDW ,¶P VD\LQJ" 7KH GLVhonesty is what gets me.

:K\ GR VR PDQ\ FRQÀLFWV JR XQGHUUHSRUWHG" Well, it’s not as nefarious as I make it out sometimes. Often the UHDOLW\ LV WKDW WKHUH¶V QRW HQRXJK PRQH\ LQ FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVP DQG WKH UHVRXUFHV JHQHUDOO\ JR WR WKH FRQÀLFWV WKDW SHRSOH DUH more interested in. It’s bad that it happens that way, and it’s bad that there isn’t the funding, but that’s what makes sense ¿QDQFLDOO\ WR PRVW QHZV RUJDQL]DWLRQV :KHQ WKH 8NUDLQH ZDU KDSSHQHG IRU H[DPSOH DQG VRPH SHRSOH VDLG RK LVQ¶W LW IXQny that Europeans suddenly care about war? What about the Middle East? I just thought that was so juvenile. Why would most people living in Western Europe care as much about something in the Middle East if they have no direct links to it?

I mean you know how many hours people work here? Normally, a standard work week in England is about 45 hours a week. ,W¶V DPD]LQJ DQ\RQH HYHQ KDV WKH WLPH WR ZDWFK WKH QHZV /RRN LI WKHUH¶V D KRXVH RQ ¿UH DQG LW¶V WZR VWUHHWV DZD\ WKDW¶V bad, sure. I hope they got out alive. I hope they’re okay. But P\ KRXVH LV VWLOO DOULJKW 1RZ LI WKH KRXVH QH[W GRRU WR PH LV RQ ¿UH ,¶P JRLQJ WR EH WHUUL¿HG P\ KRXVH LV JRLQJ WR FDWFK ¿UH so I’m going to probably go and help a lot more than I would WKH KRXVH WKUHH VWUHHWV DZD\ 3HRSOH JHQHUDOO\ ZLOO GR ZKDW helps their best interest. I don’t think it’s always a bad thing.

It’s a shame that people don’t care the same way, but do you WKLQN SHRSOH LQ WKH 0LGGOH (DVW JLYH D VKLW DERXW 8NUDLQH DV PXFK DV WKH ZDUV QH[W WR WKHP" 2I FRXUVH WKH\ GRQ¶W :K\ should they?

I’m not saying it’s good or right, but currently that’s the way I JHW P\ KHDG DURXQG LW , WKLQN WU\LQJ WR UDWLRQDOL]H LW OLNH WKDW LV the only way I can understand how media can ignore some wars and not others. :KDW DUH VRPH RI WKH PRVW XQGHU UHSRUWHG FRQÀLFWV ULJKW QRZ" /LNH WKH ZKROH RI $IULFD /LWHUDOO\ WKH ZKROH RI $IULFD /LNH there’s so many wars going on right now. I’ve been to North $IULFD EXW ,¶YH QHYHU EHHQ WR WKH UHVW RI $IULFD , FDQ¶W DIIRUG LW ,W¶V H[WUHPHO\ H[SHQVLYH WR ZRUN LQ $IULFD EHFDXVH DQ\ZKHUH

you go takes days of travel and days of employing a good ¿[HU ,W¶V VXFK D ELJ SODFH DQG LW¶V VR FKDRWLF ,W¶V YHU\ GLI¿FXOW WR ZRUN WKHUH $ ¿[HU LQ WKH &RQJR«D JRRG RQH WKDW¶V JRLQJ to keep you safe…goes for around 800 quid a day. I couldn’t afford that. , WKLQN &RQJR KDV DERXW VL[ RQJRLQJ ZDUV ULJKW QRZ 1RW VL[ IDFWLRQV LQ D ZDU EXW VL[ GLIIHUHQW ZDUV :KHQ LV WKH ODVW WLPH you heard about Congo on the news? You don’t even see it RQ $O -D]HHUD DQG WKH\ DUH SUHWW\ JRRG DW FRYHULQJ XQGHU UHSRUWHG VWXII 6R LW¶V D UHDO SUREOHP , IHHO VR VRUU\ IRU HYHU\RQH LQ $IULFD /LNH WKH ZRUOG FDPH LQ UDSHG WKHP DQG QRZ \RX¶UH lucky if we even cover the shit we caused, which is why you KDYH WKLV ZDU DQG WKDW ZDU ,W¶V FUD]\ 2XWVLGH RI WKDW $UPHQLD LV D ELJ RQH DQG .XUGLVWDQ DV ZHOO 0RVW SHRSOH GRQ¶W JLYH D VKLW DERXW .XUGLVWDQ 7KH .XUGV OLWHUDOO\ IXFNLQJ IRXJKW ,6,6 IRU XV DQG QRZ WKDW ERPEV KDYH VWRSSHG JRLQJ RII LQ 3DULV HYHU\RQH¶V OLNH RN \HDK IXFN RI

:KDW KDV \RXU H[SHULHQFH FRYHULQJ FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVP WDXJKW \RX PRVW" +DV DQ\WKLQJ UDGLFDOO\ FKDQJHG \RXU ZRUOGYLHZ" +PP« ,¶P GH¿QLWHO\ PRUH RI D UHDOLVW , KDG D PRUH OHIW\ DWWLWXGH ZKHQ , ZDV \RXQJHU ,¶YH UHDOL]HG WKDW HYHU\RQH KDV WKH capacity for good or evil within them, and even evil people can GR JRRG WKLQJV , JXHVV LW PDGH PH UHDOL]H WKDW ZH¶UH DOO MXVW people and people should never be about what can facilitate and promote your worldview.

I became a lot more cynical too. On one hand, I’m kind of sad that I lost any innocence that I had left. On the other hand, I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. I don’t mind. I’ve become a lot more depressed doing this job, but I also became a lot hapSLHU DW WKH VDPH WLPH ,W¶V KDUG WR H[SODLQ ,¶YH PHW SHRSOH WKDW I would’ve never had the chance to meet. You know, I’m from D VPDOO UXQGRZQ VKLW KROH SODFH WKDW QR RQH FDUHV DERXW 7KH EHVW WKLQJ ,¶YH KDG IURP WKLV H[SHULHQFH ZDV PHHWLQJ DPD]LQJ SHRSOH ,¶YH PHW SHRSOH WKDW DUH DFWXDOO\ VHOÀHVV 7KHUH DUH YHU\ IHZ VHOÀHVV SHRSOH LQ WKLV ZRUOG ,¶YH PHW SHRSOH WKDW DUH DFWXDOO\ VHOÀHVV \RX NQRZ" $QG WKH\¶UH ZRUWK PRUH WKDQ DQ\WKLQJ $QG \RX¶OO QHYHU KHDU DERXW WKHP RWKHU WKDQ PD\EH from their grandma or their niece or kids. But they’re not going WR JHW IDPRXV DURXQG WKH ZRUOG EHFDXVH UHDO VHOÀHVV SHRple… they just do it, you know? I really think they’re the most EHDXWLIXO SHRSOH LQ WKH ZRUOG 6R , WKLQN WKDW LV RQH RI WKH EHVW things to discover.

You discover people that are tougher than you’ve ever seen in your life, but are not burned out by it. I’m very burned and I’m very bitter through what I’ve seen in this line of work, and yet I meet people who’ve been through a hundred worst things than I have ever been through and they’re not even bitter.

7KDW¶V LQFUHGLEOH , GRQ¶W NQRZ KRZ \RX GR WKDW , ORYH SHRSOH OLNH WKDW 3HRSOH OLNH WKDW NHHS PH JRLQJ ,W¶V ZRUWK SXWWLQJ P\

life at risk to show the world how their shit got fucked up.

<RX¶UH FRQVWDQWO\ FRYHULQJ WKLV VWXII <RX¶UH SXWWLQJ \RXU VHOI RXW WKHUH 7KDW¶V D ORW RI VWUHVV 6R ZKDW LV \RXU GD\ WR GD\ OLIH OLNH RXWVLGH RI DOO WKLV" , NQRZ \RX KDYH D GRJ <HDK ,¶YH JRW RQH GRJ 0XUSK\ +H¶V D ZKLSSHW +H¶V WKH EHVW ,¶P NLQG RI DOZD\V ZRUNLQJ 7KDW¶V WKH SUREOHP ZLWK WKLV NLQG of job. I hope that all this work will pay off, and I won’t have WR ZRUN WKLV PXFK LQ WKH QH[W \HDUV , GRQ¶W NQRZ , PHDQ LW LV ZRUNLQJ , GH¿QLWHO\ ZRUN D ORW OHVV WKDQ , GLG DW WKH VWDUW because I can pay people to do stuff and things like that, but I work seven days a week. I’m not working all day every day, REYLRXVO\ , FDQ¶W FRQFHQWUDWH IRU ORQJ HQRXJK WR GR WKDW 6R I kind of dip in and out. But outside work, I just hang out with family. I’m big into family. I look after my grandma, go to the J\P DQG VWLOO GR 7KDL ER[LQJ RQ WKH ZHHNHQG , OLIW ZHLJKWV LQ the week. I think weightlifting and combat sports are important IRU EXLOGLQJ FKDUDFWHU DQG KHDOWK\ URXWLQHV *RRG WR UHOLHYH VWUHVV WRR 2XWVLGH RI WKDW , NLQG RI MXVW ZDWFK ¿OPV DQG 79 and read books and that’s kind of it really. I barely leave my IXFNLQJ KRXVH LI LW¶V QRW IRU ZRUN RU J\P WKHVH GD\V 6HULRXVO\ like I’m a recluse man [laugh]. I don’t even drink anymore. I used to go to the pub and stuff, but nah man, I guess I just KDQJ RXW ZLWK IULHQGV DQG JR WR WKH J\P ,W¶V QRW YHU\ H[FLWLQJ I watch a lot of stuff. I watch loads of independent stuff on <RX7XEH DV ZHOO /LNH ,¶P RQ <RX7XEH DOO WKH WLPH , UHDG ORWV of esoteric publications too. I like that.

6RPHWLPHV , SOD\ YLGHR JDPHV $OWKRXJK , OLNH WKH LGHD RI playing them more than I like playing them sometimes.

:KDW GR \RX SOD\" I play World of Warcraft when I can. I got back into that when they released the classic version. I love that fucking game.

I play weird games, like point-and-click adventure games. I GRQ¶W NQRZ LI \RX¶YH KHDUG RI %URNHQ 6ZRUG RU 0RQNH\ ,VODQG« WKHP NLQG RI JDPHV 7KH\¶UH OLNH LQYHVWLJDWLYH JDPHV 7KH\¶UH VWRU\ GULYHQ /LNH \RX FDQ¶W GLH LQ PRVW RI WKHP , OLNH them kind of games. I grew up playing them. I still play them.

,I WKLV ZDVQ¶W \RXU FDUHHU ZKDW GR \RX WKLQN \RX ZRXOG EH GRLQJ" , GRQ¶W NQRZ SUREDEO\ VWLOO ZRUNLQJ DW D J\P RU LQ ¿WQHVV , DFWXDOO\ WUDLQHG EULHÀ\ WR EH D SHUVRQDO WUDLQHU ZKHQ , ZDV about 18.

2K UHDOO\" Yeah, but I just didn’t like it enough. I didn’t give a shit. I used

WR WHDFK D ER[LQJ FODVV ZKLFK , OLNHG WKRXJK , XVHG WR WHDFK kids, like “problem children”, the so-called bad kids, and a few NLGV ZLWK DXWLVP 7KDW ZDV UHDOO\ UHZDUGLQJ <HDK , HQMR\HG WKDW 7KDW ZDV LPSRUWDQW

/DVW TXHVWLRQ +RZ FDQ SHRSOH EHVW VXSSRUW 3RSXODU )URQW" ,I \RX KDYH PRQH\ \RX FDQ VXSSRUW XV DW SDWUHRQ FRP SRSXlarfront. But, if you haven’t got money, the best way is just to VKDUH RXU ZRUN 6KDUH RXU VWXII ZLWK SHRSOH WKDW UHDOO\ KHOSV 2XWVLGH RI WKH ¿QDQFLDO WKDW¶V WKH EHVW ZD\ (VSHFLDOO\ RXU <RX7XEH YLGHRV <RX7XEH KDWHV XV 2XU VWXII JHWV FHQVRUHG E\ WKHP D ORW ,URQLF UHDOO\ , PHDQ <RX7XEH VWDUWHG RII ZLWK the slogan “broadcast yourself” and the idea was phenomenal. It was revolutionary. But it’s not that anymore. It’s something else.

, UHPHPEHU \RX ZRXOG MXVW VFUROO WKURXJK DQG FOLFN RQ YLGHRV DV WKH\ DSSHDUHG RQ WKH ZHEVLWH Yeah, and it could be like… an old man just mowing his lawn RU VRPHWKLQJ 5HDO QLFH 1RZ \RX ¿QG DOO WKHVH IXFNLQJ VSRQVRUV RQ HYHU\WKLQJ 7R PDNH PRQH\ \RX KDYH WR ZRUP \RXU ZD\ LQWR DQ LQWHUQHW FOLTXH +DVDQ 3LNHU ZDV ZDWFKLQJ RXU stuff on stream recently and he was like oh they’re anarchos. +H ZDV EHLQJ UHDOO\ QLFH DERXW XV EXW , LPPHGLDWHO\ ZHQW RQ 7ZLWWHU DQG VDLG ORRN ZH DUH QRW DQDUFKRV :H KDYH IULHQGV who are, but we’re not under that umbrella. I don’t want to HYHU EH LQ D FOLTXH , VWDUWHG WKLV IRU WKH PLV¿WV QRW IRU WKH clique, you know what I’m saying? I don’t want to get in the clique just to make money because then what’s the point in anything.

<HDK 7KDW¶V ZK\ , OLNH 3RSXODU )URQW VR PXFK WR EH KRQ HVW 7KDQN \RX :H¶UH YHU\ KRQHVW DERXW ZKR ZH DUH DQG ZKDW ZH believe, and I think that’s all you can really ask for. *

&0 L

SURPLUS

SKRWRJUDSK\ $- :,/621

VW\OLQJ &$5/ /29(675$1'

EHDXW\ $11$ .$72

FRDW 9LQWDJH OHDWKHU MDFNHW 9LQWDJH VKLUW &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV +RPPH 3OXV WURXVHUV <RKML 3RXU +RPPH IRRWZHDU 6W\OLVW 2ZQ

VKDZO &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV EORXVH &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV YHVW &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV VKRUWV 9LQWDJH IRRWZHDU 9LQWDJH EHOW 9LQWDJH

FRDW 9LQWDJH OHDWKHU MDFNHW 9LQWDJH VKLUW &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV +RPPH 3OXV WURXVHUV <RKML 3RXU +RPPH IRRWZHDU 6W\OLVW 2ZQ

FRDW .DWKDULQH +DPQHWW OHDWKHU MDFNHW 5LFN 2ZHQV VKLUW 9LQWDJH VNLUW &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV EHOW 9LQWDJH IRRWZHDU 9LQWDJH

FRDW &RPPH 'HV *DUFRQV +RPPH 3OXV VKLUW 9LQWDJH WURXVHUV %DOHQFLDJD IRRWZHDU 6W\OLVWV 2ZQ

&0 L

VIVIAN MAK

&0 L

RESILIENCE SKRWRJUDSK\ 125, 5$60866(1 0$57,1(=

PDNH XS $11$ .$72

DVVLVWDQWV -8/,(7 /$0%(57 (5,&. 0(1'2=$ =85, *87,(55(= $- 6$17,$*2

KDLU 5$0'$6+$

VW\OLQJ $5,$1$ 9(/$648(=

IHDWXULQJ $/<66$ 9,//$

ĸ5HVLOLHQFH LV FKDQJH 5HVLOLHQFH LV DGDSWDWLRQ

5HVLOLHQFH LV YHUVDWLOLW\ 5HVLOLHQFH LV VXUYLYDO

5HVLOLHQFH LV HQGXUDQFH 5HVLOLHQFH LV UHVLV

WDQFH 5HVLOLHQFH LV JURZWK 5HVLOLHQFH LV LQGLJH

QRXV 5HVLOLHQFH LV XQLYHUVDO 5HVLOLHQFH ZDV QRW

DOZD\V D FKRLFH EXW PRUH DQG PRUH D ZD\ RI OLIH

5HVLOLHQFH LV RXU FRQWLQXLQJ KLVWRU\ IURP WKH

FOLPDWH WR WKH VRLO WKH YHUWHEUDH WKH PROOXVNV

DQG DOO OLYLQJ EHLQJV 5HVLOLHQFH LV VRPHWKLQJ ZH

DOO KDYH LQ FRPPRQ LQ MXVW D PDWWHU RI GHJUHHV Ĺ

GUHVV /$ /283( 9,17$*( WRS %(//2 GUHVV 3$5, '(6$, OHJ ZDUPHUV 67</,67Ķ6 2:1 IRRWZHDU 0$5& ),6+(5

FDUGLJDQ $ 52(*( +29( WRS 0(/,6$ .1,76 ERWWRPV %(//2 WLJKWV 67</,67Ķ6 2:1 IRRWZHDU 6$0 ('(/0$1 EHOW (95<21(Ķ6 027+(5

A GUHVV 3$5, '(6$, DSURQ 9,17$*(

FDUGLJDQ $ 52(*( +29( WRS 0(/,6$ .1,76 ERWWRPV %(//2 WLJKWV 67</,67Ķ6 2:1 IRRWZHDU 6$0 ('(/0$1 EHOW (95<21(Ķ6 027+(5

A GUHVV /$ /283( 9,17$*( WRS %(//2 GUHVV 3$5, '(6$, OHJ ZDUPHUV 67</,67Ķ6 2:1 IRRWZHDU 0$5& ),6+(5

GUHVV 3$5, '(6$, DSURQ 9,17$*(

A GHQLP WRS 9,17$*( WRS %(//2 VNLUW EHOWV (9(5<21(Ķ6 027+(5

GUHVV 0(/,66$ .1,76 VNLUW 9,17$*(

A VZHDWHU 3$5, '(6$,

&0 L

ALEX EMMONS

$OH[ (PPRQV LV DQ /$ EDVHG DUWLVW DQG GHsigner with a body of work spanning a wide range of mediums connected by an interest LQ GLVWRUWLQJ RU UH FRQWH[WXDOL]LQJ WKH IDPLOLDU 6WDUWLQJ ZLWK D IRFXV LQ 6FXOSWXUH DQG Installation he transitioned to fashion deVLJQ ZKLOH DWWHQGLQJ 6$,& GHVLJQLQJ FORWKing that incorporated unconventional and upcycled materials. $IWHU \HDUV RI 'HVLJQ LQWHQVLYH ZRUN KH¶V now transitioned back to an art focused SUDFWLFH XWLOL]LQJ WKH DHVWKHWLF DQG IRUPDO methods of both schools of thought in his ZRUN 'UDZLQJ LQVSLUDWLRQ IURP 6XEMHFWLYLty vs Objectivity, the military industrial comSOH[ $PHULFDQ NLWVFK DHVWKHWLFV 5DJV DQG their intrinsic value), and the cycle of life and death, he aims to create a unique feeling found in the intersection of seemingly oppositional concepts. Making work that suggests age and degradation balanced E\ PRGHUQ VWUXFWXUDO HOHPHQWV KH XWLOL]HV drawing, painting, ceramics, sculpture, and PL[HG PHGLD /HWWLQJ WKH SK\VLFDO SURSHUties of the medium inform the aesthetics of the piece. $OH[ FRQWLQXHV WR H[SHULPHQW ZLWK WKH GLIferent facets of his artistic practice, with WKH XOWLPDWH JRDO RI ¿QGLQJ QHZ DQG XQLTXH syntheses of concept and form.

3257)2/,2

&0 L

CELLS, INTERLINKED

IHDWXULQJ

DUW GLUHFWLRQ

VW\OLQJ

SKRWRJUDSK\

$57$

6$.85$ %5($'<

6+$2-81 &+(1

<8'2 .85,7$

6$<(

-(,

MDFNHW SDQWV EDJ VKRHV )(55$*$02

MDFNHW -81<$ :$17$1$%( SDQWV 67((/( (',7+

WRS VNLUW OHJ SLHFH ERRWV 285 /(*$&<

DOO FORWKLQJ ',675,&7 9,6,21

VQHDNHUV 6$/2021 VDQGDOV VRFNV ',675,&7 9,6,21 MDFNHW <287+6 ,1 %$/$&/$9$

MDFNHW SDQWV 67((/( (',7+ VKRHV /2(:(

YHVW ',675,&7 9,6,21 VNLUW - .,0

OHIW WRS 6.< +,*+ )$50 :25.:($5 ULJKW WRS .N.&2

OHIW KRRGLH VKRUWV /,%(5$/ <287+ 0,1,675< FHQWHU WRS GUHVV .N&2 ULJKW VKLUW SDQWV /,%(5$/ <287+ 0,1,675<

MDFNHW SDQWV EDJ VKRHV )(55$*$02

GUHVV -81<$ :$7$1$%( VKRHV $.0(

the reversal by Cameron Morse

&0 L

part one: hysteresis

>

\PM UWZVQVO TQOP\ M`XTWLM[ W^MZ \PM _PMI\ ÅMTL IVL aW] [Y]QV\ \ZIKQVO \PM OTW_QVO KZM[\ aW] QUIOQVM [WUM\PQVO QV \PM [XIKM JM\_MMV \PM LIZSVM[[ IVL \PM JTQVLQVO TQOP\ \PM UWZVQVO JZMMbM TQN\[ aW] IVL aW] \ISM I LMMX JZMI\P aW]Z PIQZ NITT[ IOIQV[\ aW]Z WTL TQVMV [PQZ\ aW] TWWS LW_V I\ aW]Z RMIV[ NILML IVL XI\KPML aW]Z XIZMV\[¼ aW] \PQVS UIaJM aW]Z OZMI\ OZIVLXIZMV\[¼ JMNWZM \PMU I[ aW] [\MX NWZ_IZL \PM P]U WN \PM WTL MTMK\ZQK \ZIK\WZ []ZZW]VL[ aW] IVL \PM NIUQTQIZ [UMTT WN [PQ\ PIVO[ TW_ W^MZ \PM LM_ML OZI[[ .IaM KITT[ \W aW] IVL \PM [W]VL Q[ TQSM \PM _IZUQVO []V IOIQV[\ aW]Z KPMMS --\PM VQOP\ WN \PM [_Q\KP aW] IZM LQ[\IV\ IVL TW[\ )JZI Q[ Å`QVO [WUM\PQVO QV \PM UIQV XW_MZ [a[\MU IVL aW] IZM [\IZQVO XI[\ I RIUUML ÅT\MZ ¹Ua OWL 4MUWV _PI\ IZM aW] [\QTT LWQVO PMZM'º I TQVM NZWU IV WTL [PW_ aW] [UQTM aW]Z MaM[ NWK][QVO JIKS WV \PM [KI\\MZML _QZQVO QV NZWV\ WN aW] )JZI PI[ I OTI[[ WN _QVM QV \PMQZ PIVL K][\WUIZa WV I \P]Z[LIa VQOP\ IVL aW] TI]OP I[ aW] \]ZV \W [MM \PMU ¹Q LWV\ SVW_ _PI\ QU LWQVO I\ ITT 2IKSº aW] JW\P [UQTM QV IKSVW_TMLOMUMV\ WN \PM ZMNMZMVKM ¹Q \PQVS \PQ[ XPI[M Q[ LWVMº ¹JIKS \W U][QK \PMV'º \PMa \ISM I TWVO [QX WN _QVM Q\[ LIZS WZIVOM KWTWZ T]UQVW][ IOIQV[\ \PM LM[I\]ZI\ML _ITT ¹VW\ aM\ J]\ UIaJM Q VMML [WUM \WVQOP\ Q SMMX \PQVSQVO IJW]\ \PM \ZMM[ W^MZ WV \PM NIZ [QLM WN \PM ÅMTL Q R][\ _IV\ \W KZI_T ]X WVM IVL [TMMX NWZ I _PQTM º ¹\PM WTL 4Q^M 7IS['º aW] IZMV¼\ []ZXZQ[ML \PI\ )JZI SVM_ \PMU Ja VIUM ¹Q¼L TW^M \W [MM PW_ aW] UIVIOM \PI\ \PMa^M JMMV KWWSML [QVKM \PM ÅZMº aW] ZMIKP NWZ I OTI[[ IVL XW]Z aW]Z[MTN [WUM WN \PM _QVM )JZI [MMU[ \W SVW_ [WUM\PQVO IJW]\ M^MZa\PQVO IVL \PI\ _I[ XIZ\ WN \PMQZ IXXMIT ¹[W \MTT UM IJW]\ aW]Z JW\IVQ[\ XPI[M º ¹Q \PQVS Q R][\ XIQL I\\MV\QWV QV [KPWWT º aW] \WI[\ OTI[[M[ IVL \ISM I [QX \PM _QVM Q[ _QTL IVL ITUW[\ [XIZSTQVO IVL aW] \PQVS IJW]\ PW_ T]KSa aW] IZM \W JM QV I \W_V _Q\P I ^QVMaIZL ¹VW\ JIL P]P'º aW] _I\KP \PMU \]ZV \PM _QVM W^MZ QV \PM TQOP\ ¹Q LWV\ SVW_ PW_ \PMa LW Q\ º \PQ[ \PW]OP\ TQVOMZ[ QV \PM IQZ IVL aW] QUIOQVM M^MZaWVM QV \PM \W_V NMMT[ \PM [IUM IJW]\ )JZI [WUMWVM PI[ \W SMMX \PM TQOP\[ WV IVL \PM UIKPQVM[ Z]VVQVO

¹Q \PQVS Q¼TT OW \W \PM 0ITT IVL [MM _PI\[ VMMLML IZW]VL PMZM Q LWV\ _IV\ \W UW^M IOIQV º aW]Z OTI[[ Q[ ITZMILa MUX\a IVL aW] ZMIKP NWZ \PM JW\\TM ¹PMa VW VWº )JZI [PISM[ Q\ OQVOMZTa I\ aW] ¹Q KIV\ OM\ IVW\PMZ WN \PM[M ]V\QT VM`\ _MMS QN aW] _IV\ \W JZWWL Q¼TT ZWTT ][ I RWQV\ IVL _M¼TT _ITS W^MZ \WOM\PMZ º --\PM LQZ\ XI\P KZ]VKPM[ ]VLMZ aW] IVL \PM KWWT VQOP\ Q[ JTIVSM\ML QV UWWVTQOP\ ¹aW]ZM ITT LWVM _Q\P \PM KWVVMK\Q^Q\a XZWJTMU['º aW] [Ia ]V[]ZM QN aW] _MZM ÅVQ[PML _Q\P aW]Z W_V XZWRMK\ aW] QVPITM [TW_Ta IVL PWTL \PM _IZU [UWSM QV[QLM aW]Z KPM[\ ¹KZQ[Q[ I^MZ\MLº )JZI _ITS[ _Q\P \PMQZ PIVL[ QV \PMQZ XWKSM\[ IVL \PMQZ PIQZ [_Ia[ QV \PM JZMMbM ¹M`KMX\ VW_ \PI\ aW]¼ZM PMILQVO WV Q []XXW[M QU OWQVO \W JM J][a NWZ I _PQTM º \PMa [UQTM IVL aW] TM\ W]\ IV I_S_IZL TI]OP I[ \PM ZWIL KWV\QV]M[ aW] XI[[ \PM ZQVO[ WN KTIa PWUM[ TMILQVO QV \W_IZL[ \PM KMV\MZ WN \PM \W_V MIKP J]QTLQVO ÆQKSMZ[ QV \PM VQOP\ IVL aW] IZM OTIL \W PI^M \PM KWUXIVa aW] [UMTT \PM MIZTa []UUMZ ÆW_MZ[ R]\\QVO W]\ JM\_MMV \PM \ZMM[ IVL ^QVM[ \PI\ [MMU \W KW^MZ ITT \PM WXMV [XIKM JM\_MMV \PM PWUM[ aW] JZMI\PM W]\ [WWV aW] KW]TL PMIZ Q\ \PM U][QK Q[ [TW_ IVL PMI^a \_Q[\QVO ]VZMKWOVQbIJTa NILQVO QV IVL W]\ [W]VL[ TQSM IQZ IVL \P]VLMZ _PQKP X][P aW]Z JWLa IZW]VL TQSM I OZMI\ _QVL ¹_PW¼[ XTIaQVO'º aW] ZMITQbM aW] PILV\ JMMV \W \PM 0ITT QV [WUM \QUM ¹\PMa^M JMMV PMZM I UWV\P VW_º )JZI VWL[ QV \PM LQZMK\QWV WN \PM JIVL IVL TI]OP[ ¹Q\[ JMMV \PI\ TWVO P]P'º aW] \ISM I JZMI\P IVL [\IZM ]X QV\W \PM KIZMN]T _WWL_WZS WN \PM LWUML KMQTQVO \PM PITT _I[ \PM \ITTM[\ J]QTLQVO QV \W_V [\IVLQVO NW]Z [\WZQM[ PQOP _PQKP I[ I KPQTL I[\W]VLML aW] Q\ [\QTT LWM[ [WWV \PM [W]VL[ X]T[I\M \PZW]OP aW] IVL aW] ITUW[\ NWZOM\ _Pa aW] KIUM I\ ITT ¹WP N]KS ÅVITTa º \PM KWWT ^WQKM _IZU[ aW] IVL aW] TWKS MaM[ _Q\P .IaM JMIUQVO IKZW[[ \PM ZWWU \PMa _I^M IVL _Q\P VM_ OZI^Q\a aW] ÅVL aW]Z[MTN X]TTML QV \W_IZL \PMQZ \IJTM ¹_MTKWUM JIKS JMI]\QN]T Q _I[ JMOQVVQVO \W \PQVS aW]L LQ[IXXMIZML IOIQV º \PMa [UQTM IVL )JZI TI]OP[ ITWVO ¹LWV\ [XMIS [W [WWVº _Q\P \PM LMKTIZI\QWV )JZI [Q\[ IVL aW] [\IZ\ \W NWTTW_ .IaM R]UX[ ]X \W P]O aW] \PM ZWWU KPMMZ[

PITN \PM \W_V Q[ PMZM \WVQOP\ IVL \PM ^QJZIV\ MVMZOa _W]TL PI^M aW] \PQVS [WUM [WZ\ WN KMTMJZI\QWV _I[ WV aW] TWWS IZW]VL \PM \IJTM IVL [MM \PM NIUQTQIZ NIKM[ LMMX QV KWV^MZ[I\QWV PIXXa \W [MM aW] IVL J]bbQVO _Q\P aW]Z IZZQ^IT ¹OWL aW] N]KSQVO UWXMZ \PIVS N]KS aW]^M ÅVITTa ÅO]ZML W]\ _PMZM _M _MZMº .IaM _ZIX[ \PMQZ PIVL[ IZW]VL \PM \WX WN aW]Z PMIL TQSM I KZW_V IVL aW] [UQTM ¹Q \PQVS Ua MVOQVMMZQVO XPI[M Q[ W^MZº \PM \IJTM KPMMZ[ IVL aW] KIV\ PMTX J]\ TI]OP ¹PIL MVW]OP WN WTL )JZI aI'º 2I[XMZ KPMMZ[ PQ[ LZQVS I\ aW] IVL \PM NZW\P ITUW[\ W^MZÆW_[ WV\W \PM ZW]VL \IJTM ¹WP \PIVS OWL _PMV LW aW] TMI^M'º )JZI [UQTM[ JM[QLM aW] \_W K]X[ QV PIVL aW] \ISM WVM _Q\PW]\ I[SQVO IVL [\QKS aW]Z \WVO]M W]\ I\ \PMU I[ \PMa [UQTM JIKS \PM K]X Q[ _WZV IVL WTL IVL I[ aW] [QX aW] \PQVS IJW]\ M^MZaWVM MT[M _PW PI[ [PIZML Q\ aW] _WVLMZ QN \PM \ZMM \PI\ [PIXML Q\ _I[ QV \PM \QUJMZ WN \PM PITT WZ QN M^MZa K]X QV \W_V [PIZML Q\[ [IUM JMOQVVQVO aW] \PQVS IJW]\ _PMZM Q\ [\WWL UIaJM _PMZM aW] [Q\ VW_ 2I[XMZ [MMU[ \W JM PI^QVO \PM \QUM WN \PMQZ TQNM IVL \PMQZ W]\_IZL XMIKM KITU[ aW] \PMa _MIZ IV WTL QV[QLM W]\ [_MI\MZ _Q\P I [KZMMVXZQV\ NILML NZWU I KMV\]Za WN []UUMZ[ \PM JT]M Q[ TQSM \PM WKMIV LIZS IVL TQOP\ UMM\QVO QV _I^M[ aW] \PQVS WN \PM \W_V NZWU _PMV aW] _MZM aW]VO ¹IVW\PMZ LZQVS IVaWVM'º 2I[XMZ LWM[ I [WZ\ WN XQZW]M\\M NZWU \PMQZ KPIQZ IVL [MMU[ \W OTQLM I_Ia I[ \PM \IJTM IXXTI]L[ \PM NIKM[ QV \PM PITT OTW_ TQSM \PM OMV\TM KIVLTM TQOP\ IVL aW] LMKQLM \W [\IVL IVL LIVKM PMILQVO \W_IZL \PM JIVL aW] ZMITQbM \PMa IZM ITT VM_ NIKM[ IVL aW] NMMT I[ QN aW]^M ITZMILa TMN\ \PM \W_V I TWVO \QUM IOW \PM U][QK Q[ OZWW^a IVL [IL IVL aW] KIV\ PMTX J]\ UW^M ITWVO aW]Z IZU[ ZIQ[M \PMU[MT^M[ \W ÆWI\ ITUW[\ I[ QN ]VLMZ_I\MZ IVL \PM OMV\TM ÆQKSMZ WN \PM ZWWU WVTa MVPIVKM[ \PQ[ M‫ٺ‬MK\ [WUM_PMZM JMPQVL aW] .IaM KPMMZ[ --QV \PM UWZVQVO aW] NMMT I _MQOP\ PI[ TQN\ML IVL aW] [\ZM\KP W]\ KITUVM[[ MUIVI\QVO TQSM [UWSM \PM UWZVQVO TQOP\ KZMMX[ QV \PZW]OP \PM _QVLW_ WN \PM KTIa ZWWU aW] JZMI\PM QV LMMX ÅTTQVO aW]Z T]VO[ NZWU \PM JW\\WU IVL \PMV W]\ \PQ[ XPI[M _I[ W^MZ [\IVLQVO ]X aW] [\ZM\KP JMNWZM KZI_TQVO \W \PM [WN\ ÆWWZ aW] ZMIKP aW]Z IZU[ IPMIL IVL XTIKM aW]Z NWZMPMIL ITUW[\ \W \PM OZW]VL aW] [\ZM\KP I[ aW]Z JIKS P]U[ IVL VM_ MVMZOa KWUM[ \W aW] \PM ÆWWZ Q[ KWWT IVL aW] Z]J aW]Z NIKM WV Q\ _PMV _I[ \PM TI[\ \QUM aW] NMT\ \PQ[ TQOP\' M`Q\QVO \PM K]Z^ML \PZM[PWTL WN aW]Z PWUM aW] OTIVKM I\ \PM UWZVQVO TQOP\ LIVKQVO WV \PM \ZMM[ IKZW[[ \PM LQZ\ ZWIL aW] \]ZV \W NIKM \PM ÅMTL[ IVL aW] \PQVS WN .IaM ITZMILa W]\ \MVLQVO \W \PM

_QTL KZWX[ \PM XQOTM\[ Z]V I_Ia I[ aW] IXXZWIKP \PM ÅZ[\ WIS _PQKP [\IVL[ I\ \PM MVL WN \PM ÅMTL ITWVM .IaM Q[ W]\ \PMZM [WUM_PMZM aW] PMIZ \PM _PQZ WN \PMQZ UIKPQVM IVL aW] \PQVS WN )JZI [W]VL I[TMMX \PM []V KW^MZ[ aW]Z JWLa IPMIL \PM JTIKSMVML \ZMM PI[ \PM I]ZI WN I KWZX[M IVL aW] _WVLMZ QN Q\[ UWZJQL K]ZQW[Q\a \PI\ PI[ JZW]OP\ aW] PMZM \WLIa aW] LMKQLM \W KTQUJ Q\ --I\ ÅZ[\ aW] KIV\ [MM IVa\PQVO [PIXM[ IXXMIZ IVL LQ[IXXMIZ R][\ I[ Y]QKSTa I[ aW] VW\QKM \PMU IVL aW] NMMT I LQ[\QVK\ XIQV QV aW]Z SVMM[ TQSM aW]^M JMMV Z]VVQVO NWZ [WUM \QUM I ^WQKM aW] ITUW[\ ZMKWOVQbM IXXMIZ[ IVL NILM[ IVL VW WVM Q[ IZW]VL aW] I\ ITT \PM \PMI\ZM Q[V\ Y]Q\M TQSM aW] ZMUMUJMZ Q\ IVL aW]ZM KMZ\IQV \PM ZML K]Z\IQV[ IZMV\ I[ \ITT IVL _QLM I[ \PMa IXXMIZ J]\ IOIQV aW] PMIZ \PM NIUQTQIZ ^WQKM IVL I \]O WV aW]Z IZU LQU TQOP\ _I[PM[ \PM ZWWU QV I [WZ\ WN PITN LIZSVM[[ IVL aW] KIV\ \MTT QN \PI\[ WXQVQWV WZ NIK\ IOIQV aW] NMMT [WUM\PQVO TQSM I UMUWZa aW] KIVVW\ XTIKM IVL I[ aW] \]ZV \W TWWS VW\PQVO --¹KWUM \W MV\MZ\IQV Ua XQOTM\['º aW]Z MaM[ WXMV [TW_Ta IVL .IaM¼[ ^WQKM Q[ IJW]\ I[ _WVLMZN]T WN I _ISM ]X I[ aW] KIV QUIOQVM ¹aW]ZM ZMITTa [WUM\PQVO aW] SVW_ \PI\' PW_ aW] M^MV [TMMX QV \PI\ KZ]UJTQVO UM[[ Q[ JMaWVL UM º TWWSQVO LW_V aW] [MM .IaM¼[ [UQTM I PIVL QV I [IT]\M JTWKSQVO \PM VWWV []V JMTW_ \PMU \PM XQOTM\[ [VWZ\ IVL [Y]MIT QV M`KQ\MUMV\ aW]ZM VW\ []ZM QN Q\[ NWZ aW] WZ .IaM UIaJM JW\P R]UXQVO LW_V NZWU \PM JZIVKP \PM XQOTM\[ [KI\\MZ ITWVO _Q\P .IaM _PW [Ia[ [WUM\PQVO TQSM N]KSQVO J]\ aW]ZM VW\ []ZM ¹_PI\ JZQVO[ aW] \W Ua \ZMM'º ¹aW]Z \ZMM' VW\ U]KP \W TWWS I\º .IaM TW_MZ[ \PMQZ PIVL IVL aW] [MM \PMQZ M`W[SMTM\WV OTMIU QV \PM []V ¹LQL aW] ZMITTa _IV\ \W PMTX W]\ WV \PM NIZU WZ _I[ \PI\ R][\ \PM _QVM \ITSQVO TI[\ VQOP\'º TWWSQVO ]X I\ \PM UMKPIVQKITTa [M^MV NWW\ \ITT .IaM aW] NMMT TQSM \PMaZM [WUM [WZ\ WN IVOMT aW] \PQVS UIaJM \PM NIZU _W]TL JM I VQKM KPIVOM UIaJM \PI\[ _Pa \PM \ZMM _I[ KITTQVO \W aW] ¹LW aITT ZMITTa VMML PMTX' WZ [PW]TL Q I[S \PM <MZUQVITº ¹WP J]LLa LW _M VMML PMTXº .IaM ]VTI\KPM[ \PM UIKPQVM IVL [\MX[ LW_V \W aW]Z PMQOP\ \ISQVO W‫\ ٺ‬PMQZ _WZS OTW^M[ aW] KIV\ PMTX J]\ ILUQZM \PM QV\MV\QWV QV \PMQZ UW^MUMV\ TQSM M^MZa\PQVO \PMa LW Q[ []XXW[ML \W PIXXMV M`IK\Ta I[ Q\ LWM[ ¹TW[\ \_W N]KSMZ[ \W \PM +Q\a TI[\ _MMS M^MZaWVM[ [W M`KQ\ML IJW]\ \PM :M^MZ[IT J]\ QV \PM UMIV\QUM Q^M [\QTT OW\ XTMV\a WN KZWX[ \PI\ IZM KMZ\IQVTa UW^QVO NWZ_IZL \PZW]OP \QUMº .IaM P]O[ aW] IVL ZM[\[ \PMQZ [_MI\a PMIL WV aW]Z [PW]TLMZ --¹\PM [Y]I[P TQSM[ W^MZ PMZM _Q\P \PM SITM IVL [WUM WN \PM ÆW_MZ[º aW] VWL ITWVO TW[\ QV JW\P

\PW]OP\ IVL I XQTM WN \PZMM XQOTM\[ ¹IVL W^MZ PMZM Q[ UWZM \PM I[XIZIO][ IVL ZILQ[P [WUM WN W]Z JMZZa J][PM[ \WW º \PM I]\W \ZIK\WZ Q[ P]UUQVO IVL X]TTQVO \PM TW\ WN aW] W^MZ \W \PM NIZ MVL WN \PM NIZU ITUW[\ M^MZa_PMZM QV \PM \W_V Q[ KW^MZML QV NWWL JMIZQVO XTIV\[ IVL \PM TIZOMZ ÅMTL[ IZM TQSM [\IZQVO QV\W I XWQV\QTTQ[\ XIQV\QVO MIKP LQ‫ٺ‬MZMV\ [XMKQM[ _WZSQVO \WOM\PMZ ¹\WLIa aW]¼TT _WZS _Q\P /QUTQ º aW]ZM NIZ I_Ia ¹PMa JWVM PMIL º I [UITT XQMKM WN [WUM\PQVO JW]VKM[ W‫ ٺ‬aW] IVL aW] LMKQLM Q\[ \QUM \W I^MZ\ aW]Z I\\MV\QWV NZWU \PM IVQUIT[ ¹Q TW^M /QUQTQ º WVM WN \PM WTLMZ UMUJMZ[ WN \PM KWUU]VQ\a \PMa _MZM \PM TWKIT JQWTWOQ[\ QV KPIZOM WN \PM PMIT\P WN \PM KZWX[ \PMa TQ^ML VMIZ \PM MLOM WN \W_V _Q\P I XIZ\VMZ _PQKP _I[ UWZM ][]IT NWZ WTLMZ NWTS[ J]\ [\QTT NMT\ TQSM [MMQVO [WUM\PQVO NZWU IVW\PMZ _WZTL ¹OWL Q PI^MV\ [MMV \PMU QV NWZM^MZ _PI\[ \PM LMIT'º ¹[XMKQIT ZMY]M[\ OW\\I UMM\ \PM VM_JQM º \PM \ZIK\WZ KWUM[ \W I [\WX IVL TW_MZ[ \PM JIKS WXMV[ I]\WUI\QKITTa I[ \PM XQOTM\[ [\IUXMLM W]\ NITTQVO W^MZ MIKP W\PMZ aW] [\MX LW_V KIZMN]TTa _Q\P .IaM IVL \PMa \]ZV \W aW] ¹TW^M aI SQL QU OTIL aW]ZM PMTXQV ][ W]\ º --¹_Pa IZM aW] PMZM'º /QUTQ LWM[V¼\ TWWS ]X NZWU \PMQZ _WZS \PMQZ P]TSQVO JIKS P]VKPML W^MZ [WUM \IJTM\ aW] KIV PIZLTa \PQVS JMNWZM \PM _WZL[ XW]Z W]\ ¹LQLV¼\ aW] I[S NWZ UM'º \PM K]Z^ML LWWZ WXMV[ JMPQVL aW] IVL IVW\PMZ NIUQTQIZ ^WQKM JWWU[ QV ¹ÅVITTa [WUM aW]\PN]T MVMZOa QV \PM PW][M º aW] NMMT I [\ZWVO IVL OMV\TM PIVL ZM[\ WV aW]Z [PW]TLMZ IVL [UQTM ¹_M¼^M MVW]OP WN \PI\ _Q\P aW] IZW]VL º /QUTQ [\QTT PI[V\ TWWSML ]X IVL VW_ aW]ZM [\IZ\QVO \W MVRWa \PMQZ LQ[XW[Q\QWV ¹MVW]OP NWZ aW] UIaJM º <IZaV _QVS[ I\ aW] IVL PMIL[ NWZ \PM [QVS \W _I[P \PMQZ U]L KW^MZML PIVL[ ¹_M¼^M JMMV _WVLMZQVO PW_ aW]^M JMMV º aW]Z PMIZ\ NZMMbM[ IVL aW] ZMUQVL aW]Z[MTN \W JZMI\PM aW] KPMKS aW]Z [PW]TLMZ NWZ U]L J]\ ÅVL VWVM aW] OZIJ I KPIQZ \W [Q\ Y]QKSTa IVL aW] \Za \W UISM aW]Z[MTN IXXMIZ ZMTI`ML ¹aW]ZM VW\ OWVVI ÅVL IVa\PQVO QV \PW[M ÅMTL[ M`KMX\ NWWLº /QUTQ ZMUIQV[ NWK][ML WV \PMQZ _WZS IVL aW] _PQVM IOIQV QV\MZVITTa ¹aW] SVW_ 1 ZMUMUJMZ aW] JMQVO I TW\ KPMMZQMZ º aW]Z RM[\ TIVL[ _Q\P <IZaV¼[ TI]OP \PMa [Q\

LW_V I\ \PM \IJTM _Q\P aW] ¹LWV\ _WZZa \PMZM[ KPMMZ [WUM\PQVO[ LQ‫ٺ‬MZMV\ \PQ[ aMIZ IVL _MZM VW\ []ZM _Pa º <IZaV OTIVKM[ I\ /QUQTQ IVL JIKS \W aW] _Q\P I XMZNMK\Ta _WZV QV [UQTM /QUTQ TIa[ \PMQZ XMV LW_V IVL \]ZV[ \W JW\P WN aW] ¹_M SVW_ aW] VMML UWZM º I XI][M IVL OTIVKM I\ <IZaV JMNWZM KWV\QV]QVO ¹_PMV aW] KIUM PMZM aW] _MZM \ZaQVO \W ÅVL [WUM\PQVO IVL QN aW] LQLV\ ITZMILa ÅVL Q\ º ¹_M R][\ LWV\ _IV\ aW] \W _I[\M \QUM [\M_QVO IJW]\ TW^M º aW] JZMI\PM ¹\MI'º /QUTQ ZQ[M[ IVL UW^M[ \W_IZL[ \PM Z][\QK SQ\KPMV IZMI \PM ZWWU [MMU[ \W KITT NWZ Q\ IVL aW] IVL <IZaV IOZMM /QUTQ XTIKM[ I ZI\PMZ WLL JTIKS TWWSQVO SM\\TM WV\W \PM PMI\ XIL IVL Q\ QV[\IV\Ta _PQ[\TM[ ¹OZMMV WZ JIZTMa'º --QV \PM ÅMTL \PM IQZ Q[ LIUX IVL KWWT IVL \PM [WN\ OZW]VL K][PQWV[ aW]Z [\MX[ KZW]KPQVO aW] [UMTT MIZ\P IVL PMZJ[ aW] \PQVS IJW]\ /QUTQ IVL <IZaV IVL aW] \PQVS IJW]\ ITT \PM KW]XTM[ aW]^M SVW_V \PM XZM[MVKM \PMa MUQ\ QV\W I ZWWU \WOM\PMZ aW] \PQVS WN aW]Z XIZMV\[ IVL PW_ ]V][]IT Q\ _I[ \PI\ \PMa [\IaML _Q\P MIKP W\PMZ ITT \PM[M aMIZ[ aW] \PQVS WN \PM [UMTT WN JZMIL QV \PM UWZVQVO aW] TWWS \W_IZL \PM ÅMTL[ WN _PMI\ IVL TI^MVLMZ NZQMVL[ LW\ \PM NI]VI IVL aW] _QXM aW]Z [PQZ\ IOIQV[\ aW]Z NWZMPMIL I _I[X TIVL[ WV aW]Z PIVL IVL aW] NZMMbM aW] VW\QKM aW]Z MVMZOa JMOQVVQVO \W [PQN\ [W aW] UMLQ\I\M aW] _I\KP \PM [UITT _I[X IVL Q\ OWM[ VW_PMZM aW] JZMI\PM IOIQV \PM NMIZ Q[ OWVM IVL aW] NMMT TQSM I \ZMM JQZL[ KI[\ [PILW_[ W^MZ aW] IVL \PMV \PM JZ][P IPMIL \PM _I[X LQ[IXXMIZ[ QV\W \PM PWZQbWV ¹_PI\ LW aW] \PQVS WN \PQ[ :M^MZ[IT'º /QUTQ¼[ ^WQKM OZW_T[ I[ QN \PQ[ PI[ JMMV [\M_QVO NWZ IOM[ ¹Q \PQVS QU OM\\QVO \WW WTL \W ZMITTa \Z][\ Ua QV\]Q\QWV PMZM º aW] JZMI\PM QV aW] \PQVS Q\[ ZMIT J]\ aW]ZM VW\ []ZM _Pa ¹Q UMIV _Q\P M^MZa\PQVO MT[M OWQVO WV Q LWV\ [MM _Pa VW\ Q _I[ VM^MZ ^MZa OWWL I\ XPa[QK[ \PW]OPº /QUTQ TI]OP[ I\ aW]Z ILUQ[[QWV P]VKPML W^MZ [WUM JMIV[ \M[\QVO \PM Z]JJMZa XWL[ [WN\Ta JM\_MMV \PMQZ ÅVOMZ[ aW] KWV\QV]M ¹_W]TLV\ _M JM IJTM \W \MTT QN \QUM _MZM UW^QVO JIKS_IZL[ \PW]OP' Q UMIV QU VW\ X]\\QVO JIKS \PM JMIV[ _M¼ZM KWTTMK\QVO ZQOP\ VW_'º ¹UMUWZa Q[ I [\ZIVOM \PQVO M[XMKQITTa I[ aW] OM\ WTLMZ º /QUTQ [\IVL[ _Q\P I JMTTW_QVO OZ]V\ IVL L][\[ W‫\ ٺ‬PMQZ PIVL[ ¹KWUM \W UMVLQVO VQOP\ _Q\P ][ TI\MZ Q VMML \W XQKS aW]Z JZIQV JMNWZM aW]

TMI^Mº aW] [\IZM I\ /QUTQ IVL aW]Z [\WUIKP LZWX[ IOIQV ¹QU VW\ OWQVO IVa_PMZM QL TW^M \W º --QV \PM 0ITT KZW_L[ OI\PMZ \W XTIKM \PMQZ NI^WZQ\M XQMKM[ WN KTW\PQVO WV \PM TIZOM KMV\ZIT \IJTM [M_QVO UIKPQVM[ _PQZ IVL \PMQZ PIZUWVa KITU[ aW] \PM UMVLMZ[ _WZS _Q\P I OZIKM \PI\ NI[KQVI\M[ aW] IVL aW] ZMKITT aW]Z MIZTQM[\ UMUWZQM[ _I\KPQVO \PM [IUM I[ I KPQTL \PM VQOP\ Q[ KTW]La IVL aW]Z \QUM _Q\P /QUTQ PI[ LZQN\ML NZWU NWK][ aW] TIa LW_V I \PQKS JTIKS PWWLQM _Q\P \PMZUIT TQVQVO I NILML [KZMMVXZQV\ ZMIL[ ¹0a[\MZM[Q[º aW] OZIJ \PM NIJZQK \QOP\ IVL JZMI\PM W]\ ¹VW N]KSQVO _Ia aW]ZM I\ UMVLQVO VQOP\º 2WZLIV UI[[IOM[ aW]Z [PW]TLMZ IVL aW] \MV[M ]X JMNWZM ZMUMUJMZQVO \W ZMTI` aW] _IQ\ NWZ \PMU \W VW\QKM \PM [_MI\MZ ¹WP VW _Ia aW]ZM ZMITTa N]KSML ]Xº aW] JW\P TI]OP ¹)JZI _I[ [IaQVO aW]L JMMV ÆWI\a º ¹WP PI^M \PMa'º aW] \PQVS aW] UIa VMML \W [UIKS \PMU VM`\ \QUM aW] [MM \PMU ¹Q^M IT_Ia[ JMMV ÆWI\a º aW] NMMT KWUNWZ\IJTM IZW]VL 2WZLIV IVL \PQVS IJW]\ PW_ TWVO \PMa¼^M _IV\ML aW] IVL aW] _WVLMZ _Pa Q\ VM^MZ PIXXMVML aW] NMMT MUX\a aW] [UQTM IVL _WVLMZ QN Q\ TWWS[ NISM aW] KZW[[ \PM OZMI\ _QL\P WN \PM PITT M^MZa IOM WN TQNM ZMÆMK\[ JIKS I\ aW] NZWU I [MI WN NIKM[ aW] OM\ I P]O NZWU I TIVL[KIXM XIQV\MZ VIUML ;WZI IVL \PZW]OP \PM KZW_L aW] [MM <IZaV IVL /QUTQ []ZZW]VLML Ja KPQTLZMV I\ I [UITT \IJTM <IZaV¼[ _ZQVSTML PIVL[ OTQLM _Q\P PITN I KMV\]Za WN XZIK\QKM \PM VMMLTM [MMU[ \W XPI[M QV IVL W]\ \PZW]OP \PM NIJZQK aW] [Q\ IVL _I\KP aW] [QX NZWU \PM VM_M[\ JI\KP WN _QVM IVL ZMTI` PIVL UMVLQVO PI[ IT_Ia[ KITUML aW] QV I _Ia \PM UIKPQVM[ VM^MZ LQL aW] XQK\]ZM KPITS [KZ]JJML Ja \PM [QLM WN I XITU ¹Q \PW]OP\ Q Å`ML \PM[M RMIV[ I UWV\P IOW º aW] ZMITQbM /QUTQ Q[ \ITSQVO \W aW] IOIQV _Q\PW]\ TWWSQVO ]X ¹IZM aW] [\QTT WV IJW]\ \PI\ [PQ\'º \PM SQL[ TI]OP ¹UIaJM _M¼ZM ITT [\]KS QV I TWWX º <IZaV TWWS[ ]X I\ aW] JW\P IVL ZIQ[M[ \PM [UITT KIZOW XIV\[ \W [PW_ \PM \IJTM \PM SQL[ KPMMZ IVL aW] RWQV QV ¹QN aW]ZM VW\ OWVVI PMTX KW]TL aW] JM I LMIZ IVL OZIJ \PM \IJTM UWZM _I\MZ'º [W aW] JMOQV \W [\IVL I\ <IZaV¼[ ZMY]M[\ WVTa \W LIX ]X WVM WN WTLMZ SQL[ _PW [Ia[ \PMaTT OZIJ Q\ ¹O]M[[ aW]ZM [\]KS _Q\P UMº ¹[W _PMV _I[ \PM TI[\ \QUM aW] [XWSM _Q\P \PM <MZUQVIT'º \PM IJZ]X\ KPIVOM QV KWV^MZ[I\QWV _I[

_PI\ aW]L JMMV IV\QKQXI\QVO IVL aW] TI]OP VMZ^W][Ta ¹QU VW\ []ZM Q _IV\ \W SVW_ _PI\ Q\ \PQVS[º [WUM WN \PM SQL[ OI[X IVL OQOOTM ¹WP _M SVW_º ¹KW]TL Q\ JM aW]ZM INZIQL WN _PI\ aW] _WV\ ILUQ\'º aW] \ISM IVW\PMZ [QX WN aW]Z LZQVS ZMITQbQVO Q\[ MUX\a ¹VW\ []ZM º aW] [XQV \W [\IVL ¹IVaJWLa VMML IVa\PQVO'º \PM XMZ[WV JM[QLM aW] I[S[ NWZ I OTI[[ WN _QVM \WW IVL aW] ZMITQbM aW] LWV\ SVW_ \PMU I\ ITT \PMQZ PIQZ Q[ TWVO IVL JTIKS IVL \PMQZ MaM[ XQMZKM aW] _Q\P I [WZ\ WN ZQKP LIZSVM[[ TQSM \PM _WWLMV K]X [\ZM\KPML W]\ QV \PMQZ PIVL ¹WN KW]Z[Mº aW] \]ZV IVL TMI^M _Q\P I ¹Q LWV\ \PQVS Q^M [MMV aW] IZW]VLº --¹M`XMZQMVKM Q[ I [WN\ OT]M LZQXXQVO NZWU Ua PIVL[ M^MZa \QUM Q OW \W OZI[X Q\ Q Å`I\M WV \PM \]O WN Ua [SQV J]\ _PMV Ua PIVL KWUM[ \W KTW[M \PMZM¼[ VW\PQVO \PMZM I VWV [MV[I\QWV Q KIV\ M^MV LM[KZQJM I[ ZMIT º W]\[QLM \PM U]UJTM WN \PM 0ITT NMMT[ TQSM [Q\\QVO JM[QLM I ZWIZQVO [\ZMIU aW] [\IZM ]X I\ \PM [\IZ[ IVL aW] KIV\ JMTQM^M \PM XMZ[WV JM[QLM aW] Q[ ZMIT ¹Q LWV\ SVW_ Q\[ _Pa Q PIL \W TMI^M \PM +Q\a º aW] \]ZV \W [UQTM JIKS \PMQZ LIZS PIQZ NITTQVO W^MZ PITN WN \PMQZ NIKM aW] NMMT PWTWOZIXPQK ¹Q O]M[[ Q NMMT \PM [IUM J]\ Q LQLV\ PI^M \PM _WZL[ NWZ Q\ º \QUM [MMU[ \W XI][M ¹aW] _MZM TQ^QVO QV \PM +Q\a'º aW] \ISM IVW\PMZ LZIO WN \PM PITN ÅVQ[PML RWQV\ IVL M`PITM ¹NWZM^MZ J]\ _Q\P ITT \PM NZMIS[ XQTOZQUIOQVO \PM _PWTM XTIKM PI[ NMT\ W‫ ٺ‬º aW] \PQVS WN aW]Z \QUM QV \PM +Q\a IVL aW]Z U][KTM[ \MV[M ¹Q[ Q\ \PI\ JIL'º aW] []XXW[M Q\[ JMMV I NM_ aMIZ[ [QVKM aW]^M JMMV JIKS aW] \PQVS WN \PM IXIZ\UMV\ IVL \PM ^QM_ WN \PM UW]V\IQV aW] \PQVS WN aW]Z M` IVL aW] \Za \W UMLQ\I\M ¹WP Q\[ N]KSQV JIL º \PMa \ISM I TWVO QVPITM WV \PM RWQV\ ¹Q ][ML \W Z]V _Q\P O]V IJWTQ\QWVQ[\[ [W _M ZIV QV\W \PM ZMIT V]\[W[ º aW] ]VLMZ[\IVL ¹QUIOQVM \ZaQVO \W [\IZ\ I UQTQ\QI VW_ NWZ KWV\ZWT WN _PI\'º aW] _I\KP \PMQZ PIVL[ _ZQVSTML JMaWVL \PMQZ IOM _I^M _Q\P \PM RWQV\ QV \PM IQZ I[ \PMa [XMIS UM[UMZQbML [MMQVO \ZIQT[ QV \PM LIZSVM[[ aW] ÅVITTa [MM \PMQZ VIQT[ aW] VW\QKM \PM )1 MVOZI^QVO[ TQSM [MMQVO \PM KWTWZ ZML aW] QV[\IV\Ta ]VLMZ[\IVL ¹,1- )476-º aW] NZMMbM

--\PM \W_V Q[ [QTMV\ aW] TWWS ]X \W_IZL \PM UWWV aW] \PQVS WN \PM PWWLQM aW] TMN\ IVL _WVLMZ _PW _QTT JM _MIZQVO Q\ \WUWZZW_ aW]ZM OTIL Q\[ VW TWVOMZ aW]Z[ aW] QUIOQVM Q\[ [UMTT aW]Z KPM[\ P]Z\[ aW] NWTTW_ \PM XI\P JMPQVL \PM 0ITT IVL \PM KZ]VKP WN aW]Z [\MX[ X]VK\]I\M \PM IQZ aW] TQ[\MV \W aW]Z JZMI\P \PM [UITT KTIa J]QTLQVO PWTLQVO \PM <MZUQVIT KITT[ \W aW] IVL aW] _ITS \W_IZL Q\ I[ QN Q\ _MZM \PM WVTa XTIKM \W XW[[QJTa OW aW]Z MaM[ \ZIKM \PM J]QT\ QV \IJTM IVL \PM MUX\QVM[[ WN \PM [XIKM \PM ZWWN ZIQ[ML I NM_ NMM\ IJW^M \PM _ITT[ aW] TQ[\MV \W \PM TMI^M[ QV \PM _QVL \PM [W]VL[ MKPW \PZW]OP \PM LIZS KPIUJMZ ¹Q O]M[[ aW] SVW_ _Pa QU PMZM º \PM KTIa \IJTM\WX IK\Q^I\M[ KWUQVO \W OTW_ LQUTa QV \PM UWWV [PILM ¹ ;aUX\WU[ WN LMXZM[[QWV \aXQKITTa QVKT]LM"º aW] UW]\P N]KS aW] ¹XPI[M Q[ W^MZ º ¹)XWTWOQM[ ZQOP\ VW_ \PMZM Q[ VW\PQVO NWZ aW] º aW] LWV¼\ ]VLMZ[\IVL ¹ZMKWUUMVL XTIKMUMV\'º ¹<PMZM Q[ I ZMY]M[\ NWZ I[[Q[\IVKM QV \PM +Q\aº ¹VWº ¹6W XW[Q\QWV[ I^IQTIJTM º ¹WV \PM MV\QZM XTIVM\'º aW] TI]OP ITWVM ¹-`KT]LQVO \PM +Q\a º ¹_PI\ \WW UIVa XQTOZQU['º ¹AW] IZM N]VVa º aW] TWWS LW_V I\ \PM JT]M []ZNIKM IVL X][P IZW]VL \PM XIZ\QKTM[ I[ \PMa _I^M JMTW_ aW]Z PIVL[ aW] KTW[M aW]Z MaM[ ¹Q PI\M \PQ[ [W U]KP º aW] [Ia \PQ[ \W VW WVM QV XIZ\QK]TIZ aW] TMIV WV \PM \IJTM IVL [\IZM QV\W \PM OZMa _ITT aW] TQ[\MV \W \PM TMI^M[ QV \PM _QVL aW] PMIZ IV ]XLI\M KPQUM NZWU \PM \IJTM

¹AW] IZM ZMY]M[\ML I\ 6 ! ? I[ [WWV I[ aW] IZM I^IQTIJTM º aW] ZMKWOVQbM \PM IZMI QUUMLQI\MTa ¹ Q[ \PI\ _PMZM aW] IZM'º ¹6W 6MML Q[ ]ZOMV\ <QUM NZIUM" \_W _MMS[ )XIZ\UMV\[ I^IQTIJTM PMZM º \PM JT]M XIZ\QKTM[ IZZIVOM I[ I UIX WN \PM +Q\a \PM UW]V\IQV ITWVM QV \PM KMV\MZ KW^MZML QV ZW_[ IVL ZW_[ WN WTL \ZMM[ IVL _WWLMV IXIZ\UMV\ J]QTLQVO[ IZW]VL I ÅN\P WN \PMU OTW_ OZMMV IVL aW] VW\QKM aW]Z WTL PI]V\[ QUIOM[ ÆI[P JMNWZM aW]Z MaM[ \PM TMI^M[ Z][\TM TQSM I JZ][P ITWVO I LZ]U aW] UMLQ\I\M ¹_PI\ LW aW] ZMKWUUMVL'º ¹*a \PM ZQ^MZ TW\[ WN VM_ XMWXTM AW]¼TT TQSM \PMU º \PM XIZ\QKTM[ ZMIZZIVOM I[ JT]M IVL OZMMV TQOP\ [XQV[ IKZW[[ \PM ZWWU \aXQKIT \ITT KMQTQVO[ JQO _QVLW_[ I KW]XTM ZWWU[ QV \PM [Sa M^MZa\PQVO aW] PIL ITZMILa TMN\ JMPQVL aW] \PQVS \PQ[ _PWTM \PQVO Q[ JQbIZZM ¹LW aW] \aXQKITTa \MTT XMWXTM \W OW \W ZIVLWU KWWZLQVI\M['º ¹1 PI^M VM^MZ \WTL IVaWVM \W OW \W ZIVLWU KWWZLQVI\M[ º ¹_PI\[ \PM OQO'º ¹1VNWZUI\QWV _QTT JM UILM I^IQTIJTM ]XWV IKKMX\IVKM WN \PM XPI[M º \PQ[ Q[ VM_ ¹Q[ \PQ[ I ZMY]M[\ NZWU XMWXTM WZ NZWU aW]'º ¹<PQ[ Q[ VW\ I ZMY]M[\ NZWU XMWXTM º aW] _WVLMZ _PI\ \PM )1 PI[ VW\QKML aW] \Za \W QUIOQVM _PI\ KW]TL JM OWQVO WV \PI\ XMWXTM QV \PM +Q\a _MZMV\ I_IZM WN aW] \PQVS WN ITT \PM KW]VKQT[ aW] PI\M Q\ ¹1 PI^M X]\ I PWTL WV )8< 1\ [MMUML \W KI\KP aW]Z MaM º ¹VW Q\[ ÅVM \PIVS[º aW] \]ZV \W TMI^M aW]Z JZIQV [XQV[ --¹_MQZL WVMº ;TI\M Q[ TMIVQVO IOIQV[\ \PM W]\[QLM _ITT WN \PM <MZUQVIT [\Z]K\]ZM \PM PIQZ WV \PM JIKS WN aW]Z VMKS [\IVL[ WV MVL aW] \]ZV \W NIKM \PMU IVL QUUMLQI\MTa I\\MUX\ \W I^MZ\ TWWSQVO I\ \PMQZ VIQT[ J]\ IOIQV ¹,1- )476-º XZWRMK\[ QV\W aW]Z \PW]OP\[ ¹PW_ TWVO PI^M aW] JMMV \PMZM'º aW] \Za \W ZMUIQV KITU J]\ [WUM\PQVO QV aW] PI[ QOVQ\ML aW] KI\KP aW]Z ^WQKM \ZMUJTQVO NWZ I UWUMV\ ¹QN aW] ZMUMUJMZ \PM[M IZM WV R][\ IJW]\ M^MZa KWZVMZ JIKS PWUM Q^M PMIZL _WZ[M º ;TI\M [KIV[

aW] ]X IVL LW_V aW] NMMT \PMQZ OIbM WV M^MZa QVKP WN aW] ¹\PW]OP\ aW] _MV\ \W JML º aW] I\\MUX\ \W ZMOIQV KWUXW[]ZM ¹_I[ _Q\P \PI\ 2WZLIV KI\ ^MZa PIVL[a VW\ I TW\ WN [\IUQVI PMIZL aW] W^MZ PMZM º aW] NMMT TQSM I [PILW_ ¹aW]ZM VW\ QV\ZQO]ML'º ¹VW QU \QZML º aW] NWZKM I [UQTM ¹VQKM \W UMM\ aW]º ;TI\M X][PM[ W‫\ ٺ‬PM _ITT IVL MV\MZ[ \PM <MZUQVIT ¹Q _IV\ \PM OQO º ¹;WZZa aW] LW VW\ Å\ \PM ZMY]QZMUMV\[ º aW] PMIZ ;TI\M TI]OP ¹TQ[\ ZMY]QZMUMV\[º ¹,M\IQT[ I^IQTIJTM ]XWV IKKMX\IVKM WN XPI[M º ¹PW_ UIVa I[[QOVUMV\[ IZM WXMV \W UM ZQOP\ VW_'º aW] KIV\ UW^M \PM _QVL JZ][PM[ \PZW]OP aW]Z PIQZ ¹ º XZM\\a I^MZIOM aW] KIV\ QUIOQVM I [Q\]I\QWV ;TI\M _W]TLV\ JM PMTXN]T QV ¹VW N]KSQVO _Iaº \PMQZ JM_QTLMZUMV\ UISM[ aW] [UQTM aW] \]ZV \W TMI^M aW] _MZMV¼\ PITT]KQVI\QVO ¹_M¼ZM OWQVO JIKS \WUWZZW_ [TMMX OWWL º aW] PMIZ \PMQZ ^WQKM ZMÆMK\ IZW]VL \PM <MZUQVIT ZWWU \PMV IZW]VL QV aW]Z PMIL aW] PMIZ \PM JQZL[ [\IZ\ \W KPQZX \PM _QVL PI[ [\WXXML IVL aW] LWV¼\ NMMT IVa\PQVO I\ ITT

end of part one: hysteresis

<

&0 L

CARSTEN HOLLER

CLOCKS

Holler’s work is about perspective and aims to always shift the viewers. His work boarders hallucinatory experiences that grant us a moment to question the way we view the world around us. Born in 1961 in Brussels, Holler began making work in the late 1980’s that experimented with space and experience. He received his doctorate in agricultural science in 1988, following which he worked as a research entomologist, before returning to art as a full time practice in 1993.

The body of work shown here is titled Clocks, which exhibited at rue de Castiglione and the exterior-facing vitrine at rue de Ponthieu, the exhibition focused on how the measurement of time impacts human ways of being.

“I wanted to make the most complicated clock on earth,” says Höller of Half Clock (2021). In this neon sculpture, three encapsulated spheres of curved lighting tubes represent seconds, minutes, and hours. Time is indicated by the division of the surface of each sphere into spatial units, which are themselves divided into consecutively smaller parts. While half of the time is not represented at all—hence the work’s title—the clock’s accuracy increases with each subsequent division of space.

Another neon work, Decimal Clock (2023), also registers time in an unfamiliar manner, applying the decimal system to a numberless illuminated disc composed of twenty blue and orange neon rings, which account for ten decimal “hours,” one hundred decimal “minutes,” and one hundred decimal “seconds.” This calibration reverts to one proposed during the French Revolution, reminding us that the variant to which we are accustomed is a rather clumsy construction.

The darkened glass panels of Black Sliding Window (2023) mark time by opening on the hour, as well as whenever they are approached. Making the behavior of the viewer its subject, the work also enacts an explicit, active connection between chronology, movement, and space.

On view in the vitrine at the rue de Ponthieu gallery is Giant Triple Mushroom (2023), a two-meter-high sculpture in polychrome aluminum. The work’s form combines en* 0%#" !0-11Ĕ1#!2'-,1 -$ 2&0## "'Ǝ#0#,2 1.#!'#1 -$ +31&0--+Ď ',!*3"',% 2&# 0#"Ĕ capped fly agaric, reflecting Höller’s fascination with the idea that this notoriously toxic and hallucinogenic fungus may have played a role in the development of shamanism, and thus constitutes a link to ancient proto-religious culture. The three spe!'#1 *1- 0#.0#1#,2 #4-*32'-, 07 2'+#Ď 1 2&# "'Ǝ#0#,2 1& .#1Ď !-*-01Ď ," .17!&-active ingredients of their fruiting bodies most certainly evolved from those of a common ancestor. Finally, Giant Triple Mushroom resonates with Höller’s continued exploration of doubling and rupture, and hence to the division and subdivision of time that is visualized in the clock works.

In presenting the work here in COMFORT Holler opted to have the work accompanied by poems by CALEB KLACES from his book Away From Me.

6815,6( !

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

'(&,0$/ &/2&.

,QVWDOODWLRQ YLHZ :KLWH DQG 3LQN 0$$7 ij 0XVHXP RI $UW $UFKLWHFWXUH DQG 7HFKQRORJ\ /LVERQ

+$/) &/2&.

+$/) &/2&.

0$$7 ij 0XVHXP RI $UW $UFKLWHFWXUH DQG 7HFKQRORJ\ /LVERQ

,.7 692

2 !

7KH VXQ UROOV LQWR WKH FKHVW RI WKH YHQGLQJ PDFKLQH 'XVN WXPEOHV RII WKH VKHOI )RXU ELOOLRQ FKLFNHQV FORVH WKHLU H\HV DQG GUHDP RI GUHDPLQJ 7XFNHG XQGHU WKH DGYDQFLQJ VKDGH ERGLHV OLH GRZQ URZ XSRQ URZ VLQNLQJ GHHS LQWR WKH PRVVHV JURZLQJ LQ WKH FRUQHUV RI WKH VHUYHU (YHU\ZKHUH WKH HDUWKZRUPV return once again WR WKHLU YROXPH RQ WKH DIWHUOLIH 1RWLRQV RI SUR[LPLW\ DQG GLVWDQFH DERYH DQG EHORZ LQ IURQW DQG EHKLQG FHDVH WR EH DOWRJHWKHU SUHFLVH $ FRVPRQDXW ZKRP *RUEDFKHY KDG VHQW XS WR 0LU VWLOO D 6RYLHW FLWL]HQ IDOOV LQ .D]DNKVWDQ as if to a foreign land.

3HUFKHG LQ WKH QHVW WKDW KDQJV IURP P\ IDWKHU¶V FKLQ , ORRN GRZQ DW D VPDOO FKLOG ZLWK QR VKDGRZV WR VSHDN RI RQ P\ HQWLUH ERG\ DQG , ODXJK 7KH GRRU VZLQJV RSHQ DQG WKH VKRSSLQJ DUULYHV 7KH KRXVHKROG LQVHFWV FKXFNOH LQ WKH OHVV REYLRXV PDFKLQHU\ 7KHQ LW EHFDPH DSSDUHQW WKDW LW ZDV QRW EHFDXVH ZH ZHUH ODXJKLQJ WKDW WKH KRXVH ZDV IDOOLQJ GRZQ 7KHUH ZDV D KXUULFDQH $ VZROOHQ SXUSOH IDFH EXEEOHG XS IURP WKH EURDGEDQG +HUH FRPHV WKH VXQ 2QO\ ¿YH ELOOLRQ \HDUV WR ZDLW QRZ , ¿QG P\VHOI WXPEOLQJ RXW RI WKH VN\ , PHHW P\ UHÀHFWLRQ ZLWK D JHQWOH VSODVK $V LW OXPEHUV RYHU WKH KRUL]RQ SODQWV VHQG WKHLU URRWV GHHS LQ VHDUFK RI QXWULHQWV FUDFNLQJ URFNV 'RPHVWLF FDQLQHV KHDU WKH JHQWOH JULQGLQJ QRLVH DV WKH GDUNQHVV LV VKHOYHG DQG WKH SHRSOH ULVH VWUXFN E\ WKH ZLOO WR VWDQG 7KH SODQH ODQGV WKH VDPH WLPH LW GHSDUWHG )RXU ELOOLRQ FKLFNHQV RSHQ WKHLU H\HV DQG GUHDP RI GUHDPLQJ

7KH VXQ ORRNV LQ DQG WKH ZKROH ZRUOG ZLWK LW !

, UHPHPEHU WKH ¿UVW SRUWUDLW ZLWK DQ RSHQ ZLQGRZ DQG WKURXJK WKH ZLQGRZ D ODQGVFDSH DQG LQ WKH ODQGVFDSH RWKHU SHRSOH DQG HDFK RI WKHVH SHRSOH VKRXOG KDYH WKHLU RZQ SRUWUDLW E\ DQ RSHQ ZLQGRZ EXW DV IDU DV , NQRZ WKH\ GR QRW 7KH ODQGVFDSH SHUFKHG RQ WKH VLWWHU¶V VKRXOGHU OLNH D WDPH SDUURW IHDWKHUHG ZLWK SHDVDQWV D ELUG WUDLQHG WR VHQVHWKH NLQG RI VLOHQFH WKDW LQYLWHV OLNH DQ RSHQ ZLQGRZ D SUHVHQFH WR ¿OO WKH HPSW\ IUDPH ZKLFK LQ WKLV FDVH LV D VTXDZNHG Hello D JUHHWLQJ WKDW WR RXU UHOLHI ZLOO QRW EORVVRP LQWR SOHDVDQWULHV VDYLQJ XV WKH DZNZDUGQHVV RI OHDQLQJ WKURXJK WKH RSHQ ZLQGRZ to ask And what do you do? EHFDXVH DOO WKH SDUURW PDGH RI SHDV DQWV GRHV LV LW VD\V Hello :KDW you GR LV ORRN , UHPHPEHU WKH SRUWUDLW ZDV ZKDW P\ H\HV IHOW OLNH WR OHDYH KLV KRXVH WKH ZLQGRZ FORVHG EHKLQG PH 7KH ROG PDQ KDG VHDVRQHG KLV EHGURRP ZLWK VDOW WR NLOO WKH PLWHV WKDW , FRXOG QRW VHH EXW ZKLFK ORRNHG WR KLP OLNH VDOW $IWHU VXQVHW WKH\ FDPH KH VDLG VWUDLJKW WKURXJK WKH RSHQ ZLQGRZ

+$/) &/2&.

,QVWDOODWLRQ YLHZ 0$$7 ij 0XVHXP RI $UW $UFKLWHFWXUH DQG 7HFKQRORJ\ /LV ERQ

/DLND VSRNH IRU DEVHQW DLU 7KH PRRQ VSHDNV IRU 1$6$

6HOI 5DWHG $$$

:HLDODOD OHLD VSRNH IRU 1DWXUH &2 VSHDNV IRU 3UDGD 9LFWRULD VSRNH IRU (PSLUH 0DODOD VSHDNV IRU %LUPLQJKDP 'DGD VSRNH IRU 7]DUD 7KH WLDUD VSHDNV IRU 'DGD

,QVWDOODWLRQ YLHZ 0$$7 ij 0XVHXP RI $UW $UFKLWHFWXUH DQG 7HFKQRORJ\ /LV ERQ

&/2&.6 !

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¶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

6

' ( & , 0 $ / &/2&. ! ,QVWDOODWLRQ YLHZ 0$$7 ij 0XVHXP RI 0XVHXP RI $UW $UFKLWHFWXUH DQG 7HFKQRORJ\ /LVERQ

6816(7

&0 L

ANDREA WILKIN LQWHUYLHZ 1,&. $0$72

SKRWRJUDSK\ 7,$11$ )5$1.6

NICK AMATO: /HW¶V EHJLQ ZLWK \RXU RULJLQV DQG KRZ \RX EHJDQ PDNLQJ DUW ANDREA WILKIN: I would say most of my childhood I moved around a lot. My family and I relocated to different countries every four years. I think that really played into my personality.

I was kind of quiet as a kid, so I’d listen into conversations and kind of observe the world around me or admire inanimate REMHFWV , IHOW WKH QHHG WR YLVXDOL]H WKLQJV WR HQWHUWDLQ P\VHOI sort of like imaginary play. I remember doing that a lot with my VLVWHU DQG WKHQ , UHDOL]HG DV , JUHZ ROGHU WKDW LW¶V QRW HYHU\RQH doesn’t have that kind of like—can you imagine an apple in \RXU KDQGV" %XW FDQ \RX UHDOO\ LPDJLQH LW" 7KDW NLQG RI WKLQJ I think even when I paint now, I’ll try and project the image on the canvas before I paint. I’ve always had that since I was young, so it’s just something important to me. &DQ \RX UHFDOO D FHUWDLQ PRPHQW WKDW VSDUNHG \RXU LQWHU HVW LQ SDLQWLQJ" :KHQ LW FRPHV WR SDLQWLQJ VSHFL¿FDOO\ , ZRXOG VD\ LW ZDV LQ my last year of high school. It was actually my art teacher that really impacted me, and was the turning point for me to choose to do this for my life. I think he knew I was always concerned with what I wanted to do because my family’s quite acDGHPLF DQG , GLGQ¶W NQRZ ZKDW , FRXOG H[FHO LQ 0\ DUW WHDFKer gave me that push and was like, you should pursue this, ZKLFK , KDGQ¶W UHDOO\ WKRXJKW DERXW +H ZRXOG VQHDN PH RLO SDLQWV ZKHQ QR RQH HOVH ZDV XVLQJ RLO +H OHW PH VLW LQ DW OXQFK HYHU\ VLQJOH OXQFK HYHU\ GD\ DQG SDLQW +H HYHQ DOORZHG PH WR WDNH PRUH DUW FRXUVHV WKDQ , ZDV VXSSRVHG WR 6R WKDQNV WR KLP DQG RI FRXUVH P\ IDPLO\ KRQHVWO\ +LV QDPH¶V 5LFKDUG Miller, by the way. , UHDG WKDW \RX DOVR ZHUH D KLJKVFKRRO YLVXDO DUW WHDFKHU :DV WKHUH VRPHWKLQJ DERXW \RXU WHDFKHU¶V OLQH RI DFWLRQ WKDW HYHQWXDOO\ OHG \RX WR ZDQW WR PROG \RXQJ DUWLVWV" Yeah, absolutely. I would say his approach affected me a lot LQ WKDW KH ZDV VXFK D WDOHQWHG UHDOLVW SDLQWHU +H KDG D IHZ paintings hiding around the classroom, but he would never show me his work and say like, oh, this is how you should GR LW NLQG RI WKLQJ 6R ZKHQ , VWDUWHG WHDFKLQJ KLJK VFKRRO students, I also didn’t wanna show them my paintings. I felt like it could deter the kids from wanting to make art, because, you know, their idea of what’s good and what’s bad is kind RI VNHZHG 6R , XVXDOO\ GLG LQVWDOODWLRQ ZRUN DQG IRFXVHG RQ

WKH SURFHVV ZLWK WKHP $QG LQHYLWDEO\ LI WKH\ IRFXV RQ WKH process they’re bound to make a good product or something that they’re proud of. Maybe towards the middle of the year I would show them that I was a practicing artist, you know, the need to make money off of it and show them different things in WKH DUW ZRUOG EXVLQHVV WKDW WKH\ PD\ QRW NQRZ , UHDOO\ WDXJKW them the opposite of what I was doing. I gave them freedom RQ WKHPDWLFV DQG OHW WKHP H[SHULPHQW ZLWK ZKDWHYHU PDWHULDOV they wanted to try out. :RXOG \RX VD\ WKHUH LV DOPRVW D WKURXJK OLQH EHWZHHQ KRZ \RX YLHZ OLIH DQG KRZ \RX DSSURDFK DUW" 'H¿QLWHO\ , WKLQN D ORW RI P\ DUW LQ WKH SDVW ZDV YHU\ PXFK about identity and how I would feel and what I would see, but ,¶P UHDOL]LQJ DV , JHW ROGHU WKDW WKHUH¶V D ORW RI YDOXH LQ ¿QGLQJ a balance with my artwork. Where it’s personally poignant but DW WKH VDPH WLPH WKHPDWLFDOO\ DFFHVVLEOH E\ WKH YLHZHU 6R ,¶P WU\LQJ WR ¿QG WKDW EDODQFH ZKHUH LW¶V QRW MXVW OLNH DERXW P\VHOI my relationships and, you know, the symbolism of my identiW\ ,¶P WU\LQJ WR DFFHVV DQG UHÀHFW VRPHWKLQJ EURDGHU , WKLQN that’s why I stopped painting people for a little bit.

6RPH RI \RXU QHZ ZRUNV OLNH Bean Bags, Slide, and Dredger VHHP WR OLYH DV D SDUW RI WKLV GHSDUWXUH IURP \RXU SUHYLRXV VXEMHFW PDWWHU &DQ \RX VSHDN WR ZKDW LQIRUPHG WKLV WUDQVLWLRQ" :KHQ , ZDV SDLQWLQJ KXPDQ ¿JXUHV D ORW RI WKRVH SHRSOH , ZDV SDLQWLQJ ZHUH NLQG RI OLNH D UHSUHVHQWDWLRQ RI P\VHOI $V , grow older, I think I have a grasp on myself and don’t feel the QHHG WR RXWSXW WKDW QHFHVVDULO\ $W WKH VDPH WLPH , GRQ¶W ¿QG the transition as drastic to me as it may be to my viewer, because there’s still this substance to them. I wanna give them VXEVWDQFH 7KDW¶V ZKDW ,¶P WU\LQJ WR ZRUN RQ , ZDQW WR NLQG RI give the viewer an anthropomorphic lens on everyday scenes DQG REMHFWV , JXHVV ¿QGLQJ WKDW XQUHDOL]HG RU XQLQWHQWLRQDO EHDXW\ LQ VRPH ZD\V 6R WKDW¶V ZK\ IRU PH WKH WUDQVLWLRQ LVQ¶W DV FUD]\ <RXU QHZ SDLQWLQJ Car Parts LV D SLHFH WKDW GUDZV IURP D VFHQH RI VFUDSSHG FDU PDWHULDOV OD\LQJ RYHU HDFK RWKHU LQ VFXOSWXUDO IRUP +RZ ZDV WKLV H[SHULHQFH RI FROOHFWLQJ DUUDQJLQJ WKHQ SDLQWLQJ WKHVH VFUDSSHG FDU PDWHULDOV" I just came across the car parts with a friend (Cameron Morse), ZKR VDZ LW DQG VDLG WKDW LW ORRNHG OLNH ³'UH SDLQWLQJ´ 7KDW RQH

was probably the most different from my earlier works. I wanted to avoid using the reference so directly. Weirdly enough I EDVHG WKH SDOHWWH RQ D WURSLFDO ¿VK WKDW , OLNH 1R RQH NQRZV that, but it’s just like a funny little thing that I have in my head WKDW , EDVHG WKH FRORUV RII RI WKLV UDQGRP ¿VK , ZDV WU\LQJ not to attach those realistic colors to the painting and I felt so much more freedom with that. Maybe a bit too much freedom. $UH WKHUH DQ\ SODQV WR KDYH D VKRZLQJ RI \RXU QHZ ZRUNV LQ WKH QHDU IXWXUH" I’m hoping to show a series later this year. I’m planning to show a series of paintings of playground structures later this year. It will be something less playful than the generic understanding of a playground, and a bit more dark. Maybe it’s about the sense of missing my own childhood but it may mean something different to someone else. ,V WKHUH D SDLQWLQJ RI \RXUV WKDW \RX IHHO LV PRVW LQWLPDWH RU SHUVRQDO WR \RX" , FRXOGQ¶W VD\ RQH QHFHVVDULO\ 7KH\ DOO WLH WRJHWKHU LQ VRPH way. , VDZ SRVWHG RQ \RXU ZHEVLWH D SDLQWLQJ \RX PDGH D GH SLFWLRQ RI \RXU IDPLO\¶V JUHHQ WHD ¿HOGV , ZDV FXULRXV WR DVN DERXW LW¶V VLJQL¿FDQFH WR \RX" 0\ JUDQGSDUHQWV KDG D JUHHQ WHD FRPSDQ\ LQ 6KL]XRND -Dpan until a few years ago. We only have a handful of bags left and it’s very special to us. My mom and aunt both worked in WKH ¿HOGV ZKHQ WKH\ ZHUH \RXQJ , JUHZ XS UXQQLQJ DURXQG there, so there’s an element of nostalgia there too.

'R \RX KDYH LQWHUHVW LQ JRLQJ EDFN WR -DSDQ" , WU\ WR JR HYHU\ WZR \HDUV 7KH ODVW WLPH , YLVLWHG ZDV 1RYHPber, which was a really special time. I’m hoping to go more and do a residency. I get a lot of inspiration over there. Eventually I want to live there for a period of time, for sure.

$V ZH ZUDS FDQ ZH FDQ JHW D SHDN LQWR KRZ D VWXGLR GD\ ORRNV IRU \RX" , VKDUH D VWXGLR ZLWK DUWLVW DQG ORQJ WLPH IULHQG 9LQFH 7VDQJ KHQFH LWV QDPH 97$: 6WXGLR 7KLV LV P\ ¿UVW SURSHU VWXGLR so it’s been great to be able to set up all my paintings at once and be surrounded by my work. I’m usually rotating between a couple pieces at a time and I think that’s helping me come XS ZLWK PRUH FRQFUHWH WKHPHV

&0 L

ANGEL CASTRO

DOWN TO EARTH

in conversation with Magnus Unnar ĸ,QEHWZHHQ

UHDOLW\

DQG

RSLQLRQ

IDOOV

SHUVSHFWLYH

7KH SKRWRJUDSKV WKHPVHOYHV EHQG DQG PXWLODWH WKH

VXUIDFH OHYHO RSLQLRQ RI ZKRHYHU YLHZV WKH ZRUN

E\ XVLQJ WKH UHDOLW\ RI WKH VXEMHFWV +XPDQ RU QRW

DQG WKH UHDOLW\ RI SK\VLFDO SULQWV WR LQVWLOO D RXW RI ERG\

SHUVHSFWLYH $ VZLUO RI RYHUVWLPXODWLRQ OLWHUDOQHVV

IRUFLQJ

WR

I\LQJ

JODVV

WKH

DXGLHQFH

RQ

WKHLU

WR

SXW

RZQ

D

PDJQL

SHUVSHFWLYH Ĺ

MU 6R $QJHO OHWV VWDUW RI ZLWK KRZ WKLV SURMHFW VWDUWHG"" AC , KDG EHHQ ZRUNLQJ RQ D VHSDUDWH ERG\ RI ZRUN IRU DERXW \HDUV ZKHQ L ¿QLVKHG DQG ZDVJHWWLQJ UHDG\ WR SURGXFH D SK\VLFDO ]LQH RU ERRN , UHDOL]HG , MXVW ZDVQ¶W DWWDFKHG WR WKH ZRUN 'LGLQW want to show it for whatever reason. I had a few images in the back of my mind that I knew I wantHG WR VKRZ LQ ELJ SULQW RU LQ D H[KLELWLRQ VHWWLQJ 7KDW VRUW RI VHQW PH GRZQ D SDWK RI VKRRWLQJ DQG ORRNLQJ DW P\ ZRUN LQ D GLIIUHQW ZD\ , SULQWHG WKH SKRWR RI WKH VWHSV ¿UVW DQG LW VSDUNHG WKLV HQWLUH project really. :K\ LV WKH WLWOH Down to Earth? , ZDV VWUXJJOLQJ WR ¿QG D WLWOH IRU WKH SURMHFW HQGHG XS KDYLQJ D FRQYHUVDWLRQ ZLWK P\ IULHQG -LP Mangan, somehow, someone said “down to earth”, just rang a bell. I like the off the planet perVSHFWLYH LW KDV DQG WKH LGHD RI VWULYLQJ WR EH GRZQ WR HDUWK 7KH ERG\ RI ZRUN KDV WKLV VXUUHDOLVWLF QDWXUH WKDW , UHDOO\ HQMR\ $OPRVW D K\SHU LPSRVHG YLHZ RQ \RXQJ DGXOWV :KHQ GLG \RXU LQWHUHVW LQ SKRWRJUDSK\ VWDUW" I don’t really remember not being interested in visual things, cameras just in general, like as far back as family videos. I always had a interest. Never thought it would be my focus in life at all.

6NDWHERDUGLQJ UHDOO\ SXW D FDPHUD LQ P\ KDQGV WKRXJK DURXQG &RXSOH \HDUV ODWHU , PRYHG WR /$ KDG QR LGHD ZKDW L ZDV JRLQJ WR EH GRLQJ 0\ VLVWHU ZKR , ZDV OLYLQJ ZLWK DW WKH WLPH ZDV OLYLQJ QH[W WR D SKRWRJUDSKHU QDPHG *DUL $VNHZ RQH WKLQJ OHDG WR DQRWKHU DQG KHUH , DP :KDW ZDV \RXU ¿UVW FDPHUD" 0LQROWD 6U7 QHYHU UHDOO\ XVHG LW EXW WHFKQLFDOO\ P\ ¿UVW FDPHUD :KR DUH \RXU LQÀXHQFHV " :KDW LQVSLUHV \RX DERXW WKHLU ZRUN" 0DQ D ORDGHG TXHVWLRQ 0\ GDG ZDV D KXJH LQÀ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having something on a wall infront of a viewer. I love the worlds all these people create, you can see the self awareness and intelligence in the work. , ORYH :ROIDQJ WLOOPDQV ZRUN WR ZKDW LW LV LW DERXW KLV ZRUN WKDW LQÀXHQFHV \RX" 7KH JRDW +H KDV D HOHPHQW RI VHWWLQJ WKH WRQH WR PH $ VHOI DZDUHQHVV RI ZKHUH KH LV DW DQG UHDOL]LQJ WKDW KH FDQ SURGXFH ZRUN WKDW ZLOO FXW WKURXJK WKH EDVLF RU VXUIDFH OHYHO XQGHUVWDQGLQJ RI photography as a medium. Be that because of his position in art or the art scene or whatever. I ODWFKHG RQ WR WKH IDFW WKDW KH XVHV PXOWLSOH SKRWRV DJDLQ DQG DJDLQ LQ H[KLELWLRQV DQG KRZ SURMHFWV GRQW QHFHVVDULO\ HQG , IHOO LQWR D KROH RI KLV ZRUN DQG UHDOL]HG MXVW EHFDXVH , VKRZ D SURMHFW GRVHQW

PHDQ LW KDV WR EH ¿QLVKHG WKH\ FDQ EH HYHU GHYHORSLQJ +HOSHG PH ¿QG FRQ¿GHQFH DV D DUWLVW , GLGLQW NQRZ ZKR WKLV PDQ ZDV WZR \HDUV DJR 7KDQNIXOO\ VRPHRQH EURXJKW KLP XS LQ D FULWLTXH DQG LW EOHZ P\ PLQG MXVW FRPSOHWHO\ IHOO LQWR KLV ZRUN 7KDW EUHDWK RI IUHVK DLU UHDOL]LQJ \RXUH QRW 'RHV \RXU XSEULQJLQJ KDYH WR GR ZLWK QDUUDWLYH RI WKLV SURMHFW" No. Not directly :KDW ZDV WKH LQVSLUDWLRQ EHKLQG WKLV VHULHV RU GLG \RX MXVW VWDUW VKRRWLQJ WKHVH SLFV DQG WKH\ WXUQHG LQWR D SURMHFW" 2U GLG \RX KDYH DQG LGHD EHIRUH \RX VWDUWHG" I think I knew I just had to make work, and in doing that i eventually started to piece things WRJHWKHU 7KLV SKRWR ORRNV QLFH ZLWK WKLV DQG WKHVH SKRWRV PDNH PH WKLQN WKLV ZD\ ,Q GRLQJ VR FHUWDLQ LPDJHV FDPH DERXW 6RPH VKRZQ VRPH QRW , GLGLQW UHDOO\ KDYH D IRUPDO HGXFDWLRQ RQ DUW ¿QGLQJ FRQWHPSRUDU\ SKRWRJUDSK\ UHDOO\ EOHZ P\ PLQG 3KRWRV ZLWK WKH LQWHQWLRQ WR H[KLELW DOZD\V seemed like my driving force after that.

7KH SURMHFW 'H¿QLWOH\ KDV WKH IHHOLQJ RI \RXWK %XW ZK\ WKH VWHDO EUXVK WKLQJ" I dont even know if i was directly intending on a Youth focus in the beginning, Naturally I think i JUDYLWDWH WRZDUGV SRUWUDLWV WKDW DUH MXVW PRUH JUDSKLF DQG KHDY\ LQ H[SUHVVLRQ PD\EH VRPHWKLQJ to do with direct communication or a dumbed down communication but either way, simplicity has always been cool to me and interesting. On top of that alot of talent i get from agencies happens to be younger talent. But the steel wool has a correlation with the Cocaine still life. Both have simLODU SK\VLFDO DWWULEXWHV 0HWDO VPHOO 6KLQ\ KDUG EXW VRIW LQ VRPH FDVHV +RXVHKROG LWHPV LQ PRVW KRPHV EXW JR XQQRWLFHG 6RPHKRZ ¿JXUHG RXW WKH\ ZRXOG ORRN QLFH WRJHWKHU DV ZHOO :KDW ZDV WKH LGHD EHKLQG WKH ZKLWH URFN" 7KH DQVZHU LV LQ WKH TXHVWLRQ UHDOO\ KDKD , NQHZ WKDW L FRXOG SKRWRJUDSK LW XQGHU WKH VDPH OLJKW as a cosmetics campaign and in the form i had access to it and no one would be able to tell what LW ZDV 7KDW LQ LWVHOI ZDV LQWHUHVWLQJ WR PH 7KHQ WKHUH DUH WKH VRFLRORJLFDO DVSHFWV WR WKH SKRWR ,W KROGV D GXDOLW\ LQ WKDW PRVW SHRSOH DUH H[SRVHG WR LW DQG WUHDW LW YHU\ OLJKWO\ LQ WKH VDPH YDLQ DQ\ Coke that you partake in someone got shot in the face so it could make it to your neighborhood.

7KHUH LV D K\SRFULV\ LQ WKH YLHZLQJ RI WKH LPDJH QDWXUDOO\ HLWKHU D MXGJPHQW RQ PH LQ WDNLQJ WKH photo, the assumption of the use drugs, and the reality that someone you know family or otherwise has used in a normal setting or light hearted setting yet its still viewed as taboo. It changes everytime I look at it with someone else, took that as a good sign.

, DVVXPH WKH À\ RQ WKH JX\V IDFH LV DQ DFFLGHQW %XW LW EHFRPHV WKH IRFXV RI WKH SLFWXUH FDQ \RX WDON DERXW WKDW" 7KLV ZDV D IDVKLRQ WHVW $JHQF\ WDOHQW /RRNLQJ WKURXJK WKDW ZRUN , IRXQG WKLV IUDPH $W¿UVW , GLGLQW XQGHUVWDQG RU KDYH DQ\ FRQ¿GHQFH LQ WKH SKRWR DQG DV WLPH ZHQW RQ LW HQJUDLQHG LWVHOI LQ P\ EUDLQ , WKRXJKW DERXW WKDW 3KRWR EHIRUH L ZHQW WR VOHHS PDQ\ QLJKWV VHULRXVO\ OLNH L FRXOG QRW JHW LW RXW RI

P\ KHDG $OO EHFDXVH RI WKLV IXFNLQJ À\ ,WV MXVW NHSW JURZLQJ LQWR WKLV WKHPH RI GXDOLW\ WKDW DOO WKH images share. $OO WKH LPDJHV DUH YHU\ FRQWUROOHG , DP D IDQ RI SLFWXUHV DUH RXW RI FRQWRO RU PRUH VSRQWDQHRXV EXW L GR OLNH WKHVH GR \RX OLNH WR ZRUN LQ PRUH RI D FRQWUROOHG VLWXDWLRQ" Not neccessarily, I think im in a very anti social point in my life, ya know. Not a whole lot going on around me that i’m interested in. Los angeles is home so naturally its everyday to me whats going on. Im not completely interested in things I see on a daily basis, so it forces me into a direction of WKLQNLQJ RI D LPDJH DQG WKHQ H[HFXWLQJ LW 0DNLQJ VRPHWKLQJ RXWVLGH P\VHOI 7KH LGHD RI SDUDPHWHUV LV FRRO WR PH 6WXGLR SKRWRJUDSK\ JLYHV PH VWUXFWXUH DQG FRQWURO DQG LP MXVW H[SORULQJ WKDW right now.

0\ IDYRULWH SLF LV WKH JLUO ZLWK WKH UHG KDLU VKH ORRNV OLNH VKH LV WKLQNLQJ DERXW VRPHWKLQJ GR \RX WDON WR \RXU VXEMHFW ZKHQ \RX VKRRW WKHP RU KRZ GR \RX DSSURDFK WKHP" +DKD WKDQNV JXHVV LW GHSHQGV RQ WKH SHUVRQ ULJKW" VRPH SHRSOH \RX LPPHGLDWHO\ DUH comfortable with, others you can just tell its going to be a struggle to break the ice. I try to be DGDSWDEOH LQ WKDW ZD\ VRFLDOO\ PD\EH ¿QG VRPH VKDUHG LQWHUHVW RU PXVLF WKDW ZH ERWK OLNH $OO GHpends. Its a struggle sometimes. In studio portraits are pretty intimate just you and them for a couple hours if your lucky. If its a subject in the street i might not ask permission it all depends. ,V WKLV SURMHFW VKRW RQ ¿OP RU GLJLWDO 1DK FDQW DIIRUG ¿OP , KDYH VHHQ VRPH RI WKH SULQWV :K\ GLG \RX JR VR ELJ RQ WKH VL]H" 7KHUH LV D IRFXV IRUFHG RQWR WKH DXGLHQFH ZKHQ SKRWRV DUH SULQWHG ELJ VDPH UHDVRQ \RX VHH ELOOERDUG DGYHUWLVHPHQWV , ZDQW DQ\RQH ZKR WDNHV D ORRN WR SD\ DWWHQWLRQ DQG WKLQN 6SHQG WLPH ZLWK WKH SLFWXUHV ¿QG UHDVRQV WR EH RU QRW WR EH DWWUDFWHG WR WKH ZRUN 2Q D VLPSOHU OHYHO , DOZD\V thought it would be cool to see gigantic pictures in homes. I strive to make work that will look good on a wall in your home, in some ways haha. :KDW GR \RX OLNH DERXW SKRWRJUDSK\" Wow good question magnus, haha nah, I like the abruptness of making a photo, the VPRRWKQHVV WKH VHDPOHVVQHVV 7KH FRPSOLFDWLRQV DQG YDULDEOHV WKDW D SKRWRJUDSKHU FKRRVHV to address. :KHUH GR \RX VHH \RXU ZRUN LQ WHQ \HDUV" -XVW KRSH ,P DOLYH ZRXOG EH EHDXWLIXO WR SXW \HDUV LQWR DQ\WKLQJ LI LP FRXQWLQJ IURP ZKHQ L VWDUWHG WDNLQJ SLFWXUHV

&0 L

BOBBY ESCOBEDO

ĸ 7KH LPDJHV KHUH DUH D VHOHFWLRQ RI SDVW DQG SUHVHQW PR PHQWV IURP VNDWLQJ WKH VWUHHWV ZLWK KRPLHV 0RVW RI WKH WLPH \RXĶOO VHH D UDG SKRWR VKRW RQ ILVKH\H RU OLW XS UHDOO\ QLFH ZKLFK LV FRRO EXW ,ĶYH DOZD\V EHHQ GUDZQ WR ZKDW KDS SHQV EHKLQG WKH VFHQHV RU WULFNV VKRW IURP D ĸGLIIHUHQWĹ DQJOH :KHQHYHU ,ĶP IOLSSLQJ WKURXJK D SKRWR ERRN RU PDJ WKH SHRSOH HQYLURQPHQW RU HPRWLRQ RI WKH VFHQH LV ZKDW DW WUDFWV PH WKH PRVW , QHYHU KDG IRUPDO WUDLQLQJ RU ZHQW WR VFKRRO IRU SKRWRJUDSK\ , MXVW UHPHPEHU VHHLQJ D VFHQH LQ 0(1,.0$7, ZKHUH $WLED ZDV KROGLQJ KLV +DVVHOEODG ORDG LQJ ILOP ZLWK D UDQGRP ZRPDQ DQG IRU VRPH UHDVRQ WKDW GUHZ PH LQWR ZDQWLQJ WR SKRWRV $OVR WKHUHĶV VRPHWKLQJ DERXW VKRRWLQJ ILOP WKDW KHOSV PH WKLQN DERXW HYHU\ VKRW D ELW PRUH DQG WDXJKW PH KRZ OLJKW ZRUNV , VWLOO IXFN XS VKRWV EXW VRPHWLPHV WKRVH DFFLGHQWV DUH WKH LPDJHV , DP WKH PRVW K\SHG RQ ,ĶYH QHYHU FDUHG PXFK DERXW WKH W\SLFDO W\SH RI SHUIHFWLRQ $ JRRG LPDJH VD\V D ORW UHJDUGOHVV RI KRZ LW ZDV PDGH ,ĶYH EHHQ OXFN\ WR PHHW VRPH DPD]LQJ SHRSOH DQG ,ĶP WKDQNIXO WR KDYH WKRVH PHPRULHV IRUHYHU ,WĶV FUD]\ WKDW DIWHU ,ĶP JRQH VRPHRQH FRXOG ORRN WKURXJK P\ SKRWRV DQG HYHU\WKLQJ , H[SHULHQFHG LQ P\ OLIHWLPH &+$1'/$5 ',;621 IURQW JULQG

6LQFH , VWDUWHG VKRRWLQJ , FDSWXUH D KXJH SRUWLRQ RI P\ OLIH DQG LWĶV DOZD\V HYROYLQJ ZKHWKHU LW LV P\ SHUVRQDO OLIH RU VNDWLQJ Ĺ

0,.( /(00$ &+$1'/(5 %85721 WRS WR ERWWRP !

5(**,( &2/9,1 ZDOOULGH &$5,6/( $,.(16 0$5&26 02172<$ NLFNIOLS FURRN

81.2:1

0$5&86 9,. NLFNIOLS

&$5/,6/( $,.(16 YDULDO KHHO !

0$5&26 02172<$ EV QRVHJULQG

6$00< 0217$12 NLFNIOLS

.(9,1

%5,$1$

.25$

0$5&26

0,7&+

7+20$6

&$5/,6/(

1,.2/$,

&855(1 &$3/(6 /28,( /23(=

&0 L

DANIEL ALBRIGO

Daniel Albrigo is a kind, humble soul, who works across multiple mediums all interlinked by a mix of his own personal photographs and appropriated images, that touch on American culture. I saw his latest collection of sumi-ink drawings on display at his recent solo exhibition at 2-3 Fair in Santa Monica CA, which are truly fascinating.

From afar they resemble Xerox prints, but on closer inspection reveal they’re extremely intricate hand drawings.

Daniel has exhibited at numerous prestigious galleries around the world, has spent over 20 years tattooing, avidly collects art and fishes to reset. He invited me to his home / studio in Costa Mesa to give me further insight into his latest projects and what’s currently buzzing around in his creative mind.

AW: Tell me about where you grew up and your family life in your early years?

DA: I was born in 82 and grew up in LaVerne, Ca near the LA County Fair Grounds. I grew up in a divorced/remarried family and have 5 siblings between the 2 families.

ZULWWHQ SKRWRJUDSKHG E\ $1'5(: :5(1 DGGLWLRQDO LPDJHV FXUWRVH\ RI '$1,(/ $/%5,*2

What were you into as a teenager? (music, film, art, $ 1&'-,Ď 1) 2#Ď !-3,2#0Ĕ!3*230# 123Ǝġ There was a pretty big skate and music scene in my area, I was out as much as my folks would let me. We had a lot of iconic skate spots near us, so we skated almost everyday. My first job was at a skate shop called Utility Board Shop. Outside of skating, we were kind of sheltered growing up and we were very music hungry.

When we got old enough to go to shows we went to anything that sounded fun. Punk, Ska, Reggae, Raves, random parties we would hear about at school, if it seemed interesting we would check it out.

When did you first discover being “creative” was going to be your chosen path and how did that !-+# -32ċ Ġ"0 5',%Ď .&-2-%0 .&7Ď %0 Ǝ'2'Ď + % 8',#1ččġ My Mom is a very talented artist and from a very young age encouraged me to draw and paint.

0-5',% 3. 5 1 ',1.'0#" 7 *-50'"#0 02Ď %0 Ǝ'2' þ skate magazines, renaissance artists, tattoo artists etc. I was all over the place. The turning point for me was in high-school, I had an art teacher pull me aside after I had turned in a few half assed homework assignments. He said that he knew I was bullshitting him and that I could really draw but I was being lazy. He gave me a sheet of paper that was about 40x60 inches and said I had to fill the entire sheet with a drawing and my whole year’s grade depended on it.

I accepted the challenge and did a color pencil drawing of a Maasai Chief with sunglasses on and honestly it changed my life. I had never experienced a sense of satisfaction or achievement like that before.

I felt that spark turn into a flame. Right away I started taking work more serious and have been painting regularly ever since.

When did you first discover tattooing? And which artists first inspired you?

I became interested in tattoos at about 14 and got my first one when I was 15. I collected all of the tattoo magazines and started trying to draw in that late 90’s tattoo style, I loved the style but never thought about being a tattooer. When I turned 18 I got a bunch of tattoos and spent a lot of time hanging out at tattoo shops. Being in that environment, watching tattoo artists at work changed my idea of what a career in the arts could be. I had to ask three times but eventually I apprenticed for about a year under a tattooer named Matt Green at Classic Tat2-- ', .* ," č - 12 02#" -Ǝ'!' **7 2 22--',% ', 2001.

What about your time in New York? Who were you hanging around with at the time?

My wife Brooke and I moved to Brooklyn in 2008. I got invited to work at a shop called Invisible in LES. 5-0)#" 2 $#5 "'Ǝ#0#,2 2 22-- 1&-.1 ', 0--)*7, from 2008-15 including NYAdorned and ThreeKings. A lot of great memories from each shop and an endless line of people wanting tattoos.

Outside of the tattoo shop, my move to NY was heavily influenced by my hopes to show some paintings in world famous NYC galleries. As soon as we arrived I started painting a lot , using the inspiration of being surrounded by good art/artist and turning that into making my own art. I immediately made friends with a group of very talented artists that I’m still close with today. It was and still is an endless inspiration and motivation to see all my friends make next level work consistently.

As a young tattooer I was eager to learn, I was inspired by just about everyone’s work I saw. I was surrounded by some of the greatest tattooers in the world and learned from anyone who would let me watch. The tattoo gods have been very kind and have looked after me this whole journey.

How was life in Brooklyn and what ultimately became the catalyst to move to LA? We had an amazing time living in Brooklyn and I felt like I accomplished what I had set out to do. Worked with some of the best tattooers in the country, got my foot in the door of the art world and was showing work regularly, and had a great group of friends that were all artists/creative people. I feel like I grew up and became an adult during these years. Some of the funnest time of my life. By 2014 Brooke and I both decided we wanted to change things up and started saving some money to move back to CA.

I’ve worked in some really incredible shops in California and New York. I’ve done a lot of traveling over the years doing guest spots around the world.

Our siblings were all having kids that we wanted to be present for their lives. Also, honestly we were over the snow.

0DULR $\DOD DW KLV VWXGLR LQ /RV $QJHOHV &D

It’s still one of my favorite things to do and I’m still regularly meeting new artists and photographing them in their studio space. I find a lot of happiness and inspiration seeing where artist work. Being invited in to take photos always feels very special and intimate to me.

SKRWRJUDSKHG E\ 'DQLHO

Something happened during that visit and I finally saw a new purpose in my photography: photographing artists and their work space. We both realized we were supposed to be working together in some capacity and started planning things immediately. We ended up having a couple split exhibitions and collaborated regularly on projects until she passed in 2020. The support from Genesis and this studio visit gave me all the confidence I needed to approach other artist about doing studio visits and taking their portraits as well.

$OVR SLFWXUHG 3DXO )ORUHV 0LD 6FDUSD

Tell me about your studio visit series? When did this start and how has it evolved over the years?

Moving to NY started the practice of doing studio visits and taking photos of artists. I had been taking photos since I was pretty young but didn’t have any purpose previously. Within the first few months of living in Brooklyn, I met the artist/Musician Genesis P-Orridge. That was the first studio visit I did and the plan was to take photos of and do paintings of her gold teeth.

How / when did you first meet Raymond Pettibon? And how did your relationship evolve over the multiple studio visits? What was your favorite moment during these visits?

I found Raymond Pettibon on Twitter in 2015. We had a couple back and forth interactions but, honestly I made a joke about his account looking like a 10 year old was in charge and he started following me. After I saw him following my account I DM’d him asking if it would be possible to photograph him in the studio sometime. He replied with his studio address telling me to stop by some time.

Inside Raymond’s studio I saw an overwhelming amount of sports equipment in every corner of the studio and felt drawn to have Raymond take me through that collection. He lit up and started taking me though his collection of game-used baseball bats, gloves and all kinds of random equipment . The time flew by that day and he invited me back for another visit since there was so much to cover.

I sensed right away he was into the documentation of his collection. I ended up at his studio 4-5 times to get all the photos I wanted. Raymond was very supportive and easy to work with. He suggested that I do something with the photos so I’m putting a book out called “Number One Sports” with an intro poem by Raymond. (Hopefully out later this year.)

Your studio visits are all photographic so how and when did your work expand into both drawings and paintings? And can you tell me about the process and how each medium is interconnected?

The first studio visit I did in NYC with Genesis P-orridge altered my reality and my future. It was the first time I realized a more true potential of taking photos in artists studios and using them as reference for oil paintings. I’ve done realism painting my 5&-*# *'$# 32 2&'1 $#*2 "'Ǝ#0#,2 ," 5 ,2#" 2- #6.*-0# 2& 2č ě4# *5 71 *-4#" "-',% 12'** *'$# þ * ,"scape paintings, so taking my photos of artist and their studios to use as reference for paintings felt like a natural avenue for me to take.

Inspiration is a hell of a thing. When I wasn’t motivated to paint I’d lean heavy into the photography and visa versa. I could be productive even if I wasn’t inspired to work in either one at any moment.

You’ve already had some notable works exhibited and helped to curate group shows so how have you found dabbling in the art world and any future ambitions here?

Honestly, I’m just happy to be painting and showing work. It’s my life dream to show my work in galleries and museums, and I’m doing it. I’m just trying to put in work and leave something here when I’m

gone. I try not to force any interactions anymore, I let thing happens more naturally now. If there’s a good connection I’m always willing to explore it. I’ve had stoned thoughts about opening a gallery since I have so many talented friends to fill a program but, right now that’s still a pipe dream haha.

What about your recent exhibition ‘Set Break’ at 2-3 Fair? How did this come about and what was the series of drawings you displayed?

“Set Break” was a very special show for me. My first solo show with all ink paintings. The gallery owner Stevie is a good friend of mine and as soon as I saw he opened a gallery I approached him about working together. The term “Set Break” for me is when the Grateful Dead stops playing and the house lights come back up at a show, an untethered 45min break from the music and time to hang out. For me it’s time to find all my friends I came with and see how their show is going. A reunion of friends on a psycho journey.

I take film photos of friends at every Dead show I go to, so I pulled mostly from these for this exhibition.

There are other works in the show that go beyond Dead shows but, the reoccurring theme is it’s all portraits of friends and family.

Now, you obviously have a strong following when it comes to tattooing and also created a very unique style, can explain how this came about?

I have never found one style of tattooing that I wanted to do forever. I kind of just let things grow ," #4-*4# , 230 **7č ě4# & " $#5 "'Ǝ#0#,2 127*#1 in my 20+ years of tattooing. Right now I’m at my most comfortable and happiest place. I pull from a lot of sources. Lately I’ve been tattooing a lot of crude late 70/80s designs. For a couple decades I was trying to make perfect tattoos, it feels good to do designs that are less than perfect on purpose.

My tattooing can be whatever I want it to be and it feels good to let it change overtime. Be a nice person that takes chances and you’ll have a long line of clients wanting that magic from you.

I know you’re an avid art collector so maybe you can mention your last two favorite acquisitions?

I can’t narrow it down to 2!!

The last handful of artists I’ve collected work from are Genesis P-Orridge, Sharif Farrag, Chris Suarez, Eric Elms, Dash Snow, Pedro Alejandro Verdin þ " -,-&3#č

Lastly….what’s up with your love of fishing over the years. Is it a break to all of the multitude of creative outlets you’ve got going on?

I hav to admit I typically have a camera with me when I’m fishing. I’m very thankful that my dad got us fishing when we were young and made it fun. I fly fish and ocean fish with my brothers regularly. Our favorite time of year is the annual Fall Sierra Nevada trout fishing trip. I’ve found over the years most of my hobbies are creative based so fishing is the ultimate reset for me. No tattoo clients, no paint, no deadlines…just fresh air, cold water and beautiful views.

&0 L

JASAYA NEALE LQWHUYLHZ 1,&. $0$72

SKRWRJUDSK\ -(63(5 ' /81'

1LFN $PDWR &DQ \RX WHOO XV D OLWWOH DERXW \RX DQG \RXU EDFNJURXQG -DVD\D 1HDOH , ZDV ERUQ DQG UDLVHG LQ .DQVDV &LW\ 0LVVRXUL , ZDV DOVR EDFN DQG IRUWK WKURXJK 7ULQLGDG 7REDJR 7KDW¶V P\ KHULWDJH like that’s where my family is from. I grew up painting and drawing the basics stuff as a kid. I wasn’t big into art classes at my school, so I ventured off on my own, like in my free time. $V , JRW ROGHU , VORZO\ VWDUWHG WR YHQG RXWVLGH RI WKHVH OLWWOH HYHQWV WKDW ZH KDG LQ .& DQG , ZRXOG VHOO P\ LOOXVWUDWLRQV DQG marker drawings and stuff. Once people started to gravitate toward them. I was like, man, let me see if I can do this as far DV D SDVVLRQ RU D FDUHHU $QG WKHQ , MXVW VORZO\ JRW LQVSLUHG and started to create my style and develop from there.

1RZ WKDW \RX PHQWLRQ LW , FDQ VHH VRPH PDUNHU DHVWKHW LFV LQ \RXU VW\OH $ KXQGUHG SHUFHQW 7KDW ZDV UHDOO\ OLNH , VDLG EHLQJ D VHOI WDXJKW SDLQWHU 7KDW RQH FKDOOHQJLQJ WKLQJ ZDV JRLQJ IURP DOcohol illustration to acrylic. I used my chemistry and balance that I had with my markers, and I just took that to acrylic. I kind of paint like I use a marker.

6R ZKHQ GLG \RX PRYH WR /$ IURP .DQVDV &LW\" , PRYHG WR /$ DERXW IRXU DQG D KDOI \HDUV DJR 6LQFH , ZDV D WHHQDJHU , XVHG WR JR EDFN DQG IRUWK IURP .& WR /$ DQG .& to Chicago. When I came out here, I got familiar with the areas and the lifestyle, but it’s always different living somewhere WKDQ YLVLWLQJ 7KH NH\ WR OHDYLQJ WKH 0LGZHVW ZDV WKH ZHDWKHU besides getting involved with more galleries, meeting more DUWLVWV DQG KDYLQJ PRUH UHVRXUFHV 7KH GRZQVLGH RI /$ LV right now it’s home, but at the end of the day it’s not home, KRPH , KDYH D ORW RI IDPLO\ EDFN LQ .& DQG , KDYHQ¶W EHHQ able to return as much as I would like. But man, like really, no ELJ FRPSODLQWV /$¶V EHHQ JRRG WR PH &DQ \RX UHPHPEHU ZKDW LQVSLUHG \RXU VKLIW IURP LOOXVWUD WLRQ WR SDLQWLQJ" I grew up drawing mangas, cartoons, and stuff like that. But I always wanted to venture off into more realistic paintings. One day, man, I told myself, I’m just going to go outside my comfort ]RQH DQG WU\ D PHGLXP , FDQ¶W FRQWURO ,W ZDV WKDW VSDUN ZKHQ I saw other art I liked a lot, and I was like, man, I want to do

WKLV EXW , GRQ¶W NQRZ ,¶P MXVW QRW FRPIRUWDEOH GRLQJ LW 6R , MXVW bought these materials. Like, I bought acrylics, oils, and some canvases and just started painting, self-taught, honestly.

0RVW DUWLVWV XVH DUW WR EUHDN IURP UHDOLW\ LW VHHPV TXLWH WKH RSSRVLWH LQ \RXU FDVH :KDW DERXW WKH H[WHUQDO ZRUOG VXSSOLHV WKH QDUUDWLYHV \RX ¿QG LQÀXHQWLDO" , ZRXOG VD\ ,¶P PRVW LQÀXHQFHG E\ DUFKLWHFWXUH DQG WKH FLQematic nature of everything around me. It’s all just moments.

0RVW RI ZKDW , SDLQW LV IURP SKRWRV , VKRRW RQ P\ L3KRQH RU ¿OP FDPHUD DQG LW¶V DOZD\V MXVW VRPHWKLQJ , OLNHG DERXW WKDW moment. <RX DUH RSHQ WR FKDOOHQJLQJ \RXUVHOI RQ WKH FDQYDV <RXU ZRUNV KDYH PXOWLSOH OD\HUV DQG \RX FDSWXUH LQWULFDWH GH WDLOV OLNH ¿UVW SHUVRQ SHUVSHFWLYHV RU PLUURU UHÀHFWLRQV 7R ZKDW H[WHQW ZLOO \RX ¿FWLRQDOL]H RXWVLGH RI D FDQGLG SKRWR" Even when I was younger, I’ve always been a detail buff and ZDQWHG WR OHDUQ KRZ WR GUDZ XQFRPIRUWDEOH SHUVSHFWLYHV 6R , challenge something I’ve never done in each painting—shadRZV DQJOHV UHÀHFWLRQV DQG SHUVSHFWLYH 7KHUH DUH VRPH moments that I would paint directly from a photo, but I like to change stuff around, man. I’ll change colors and shine more light, or a thing that I do a lot is adding harsh light or contrast WR SDLQWV WKDW ZHUHQ¶W RULJLQDOO\ WKHUH 6R , OLNH WR FKDQJH DQG go back and forth from time to time from photos. &DQ ZH H[DPLQH KRZ \RX VSHQG D GD\ LQ WKH VWXGLR" 8VXDOO\ ZDNH XS HDUO\ DV , FDQ VHYHQ HLJKW R¶FORFN LQ WKH morning. I’ll grab a coffee, probably stop by Maru in the arts district, and grab a vanilla latte. <laugh>. I’ll head to the stu, ZDVK P\ KDQGV DQG WXUQ RQ VRPH PXVLF 8VXDOO\ OLVWHQ WR VRPH MD]] 8. -D]] KDV EHHQ OLNH WKH PRYH IRU WKH SDVW IHZ \HDUV 7KHQ , OLNH WR ZRUN RQ WZR RU WKUHH SLHFHV DW D WLPH GHpending on the scale. I work like 6, 7 hours a day with some breaks. I paint as much as I can without overworking. ,V WKHUH DQ\ PXVLF \RX IHHO KDV EHHQ WKH PRVW LQÀXHQ WLDO RU DVVLVWHG LQ VRPH RI \RXU IUDPHZRUN IRU SDUWLFXODU ZRUNV" ,¶P D ELJ ELJ MD]] GXGH 6R OLNH P\ IDYRULWH MD]] DUWLVW LV $/6 +H¶V D MD]] PXVLFLDQ IURP /RQGRQ DQG ,¶P FRQVWDQWO\

rotating his albums. I think Bring Backs, one of his newest albums, is a huge, huge replay when I’m painting. I’ll also listen WR *6 3HWHUVRQ +HUELH +DQFRFN 0LOHV 'DYLV DQG DOO WKRVH OLNH DOEXPV ,¶P ELJ RQ ZRUOGZLGH )0 WRR +LV VWDWLRQ LV D ELJ LQÀXHQFH RQ ZKHQ , SDLQW MXVW EHFDXVH LW¶V VR PDQ\ GLIIHUHQW JHQUHV RI PXVLF , ORRN DW P\ SDLQWLQJ DV D ELJ MD]] YLEH OLNH VRPHWKLQJ \RX¶G VHH DW D MD]] EDU ,V WKHUH D UHODWLRQVKLS EHWZHHQ KRZ \RX DSSURDFK DUW DQG OLIH" It could be a little different. I think I approach my art more thoughtfully. When I’m with my art, I’m more committed and focused, if that makes sense. I live more on the not-so-wary type of energy. It’s a balanced man. It’s a balance. I like to put ‘em both there sometimes, but I also like to separate it.

:KDW ZRUNV DUH \RX PRVW H[FLWHG DERXW ULJKW QRZ" I have a series that I’m working on, commissions on the side, DQG VRPH VWXGLR YLVLWV ZLWK D IHZ JDOOHULHV 6R ULJKW QRZ MXVW SXWWLQJ WRJHWKHU D VROLG ¿YH SLHFH VHULHV WR KDYH VRPHWKLQJ UHDG\ $IWHU WKLV VHULHV , PLJKW FKDQJH D ELW RI P\ VW\OH DQG UHWXUQ WR PRUH SRUWUDLWXUH DQG ¿JXUDWLYH ZRUN OLNH , XVHG WR EXW ,¶P ZRUNLQJ RQ WKH VHULHV ULJKW QRZ

&0 L

MICHAEL BALA LQWHUYLHZ 1,&. $0$72

SKRWRJUDSK\ ('',( 6$/,1$6 <8'2 .85,7$

1LFN $PDWR ,¶G OLNH WR VWDUW ZLWK \RXU EDFNVWRU\ DQG KRZ \RX EH JDQ PDNLQJ DUW Michael Bala I guess I never really started how every other artist began their, I would say, childhood career. I never picked up an instrument related to art until the end of high school, which was just like a camera. I got into photography DQG GRFXPHQWHG LQ ZD\V LQVSLUHG E\ *UHJRU\ .RQ $OH[ 6RFN DQG :LOOLDP (JJOHWRQ 7KDW ZDV P\ LQWURGXFWLRQ WR DUW HVSHFLDOO\ LQ WKH ¿QH DUW FDWHJRU\ $IWHU KLJK VFKRRO , WRRN DUW FODVVHV LQ FRPPXQLW\ FROOHJH 7KDW LV DOVR ZKHUH P\ SHUVSHFWLYH EHJDQ WR FKDQJH ,W PDGH PH UHDOL]H WKDW it’s beyond the photograph itself, whether you print it out RU VFDQ DQG HGLW WKHP DOO FUD]\ RU KRZHYHU RQH ZRXOG SUHIHU 7KDW¶V ZKHQ , ZDV LQWURGXFHG WR WKH LGHD WKDW \RX can make books from them. You can silkscreen the photographs and do all these monotypes, leading to further pursuing photography. I applied to universities after that. $V , HQWHUHG P\ ¿UVW \HDU DW 8&/$ , WRRN P\ ¿UVW VFXOSture class. I’ve never built things before besides knowing how to cut wood and the simple basis of using a chop saw. I was interested in the mechanics of material from my understanding of photography, where there’s always something about a photograph you can’t touch or access. Most of the time, the materials in the picture, subjects, or objects are almost like the truth or the closest thing to reality. What intrigued me with sculpture is that thinking about sculpture and photography allowed me to access this idea or this notion of making that takes the similarities of what a photograph can’t provide and what VFXOSWXUH FDQ¶W SURYLGH²FUHDWLQJ WKLV VSHFL¿F LPDJHU\ and, using elements still through photography as an idea of framework, and applying it to sculpture. ,V WKHUH D GLIIHUHQW VHQVH RI IUHHGRP \RX IHHO IURP WKH SK\VLFDO QDWXUH RI VFXOSWXUH DV RSSRVHG WR SKR WRJUDSK\" MB: Yeah. It’s the physicality, and this relation through wanting to touch something or seeing something enhances this material, providing truth or evidence because LWV SK\VLFDO SUHVHQFH LV SUHVHQWHG WKURXJK IRUP WH[WXUH HW FHWHUD 7KURXJK SKRWRJUDSKV \RX FDQ WDNH D SLFWXUH of the object you’ve made, and it scales it back, leaving many things behind.

,V WKHUH D UHFXUULQJ PDWHULDO WKDW \RX ZRUN ZLWK" I guess there is a recurrence of material through the idea of found objects, or claiming an object in ways. I’ve always been attracted to found objects based on their past ownership and how it has this association through touch and feel, which is this idea of a gesture that never gets removed. For instance, these here on this sculpture are DOO IRXQG EDQLVWHU UDLOLQJV 7KHUH ZDV WKLV HHULQHVV WR it that I was attracted to and something that I shouldn’t KDYH $W WKH VDPH WLPH , ORYHG KRZ EHDXWLIXO WKH\ HQGHG up being. I think that stride goes back to my upbringing of the house I lived in, never believing in reclaimed objects.

(YHU\WKLQJ DOZD\V KDG WR EH EUDQG QHZ 6R LW PLJKW EH this subconscious attraction to like a lot of found objects for me that I now reoccur in many of my sculptures with fabric to used hardwood tiles or a lot of buttons attached WR KDUGZRRG ÀRRULQJV $ SLHFH RI \RXUV FDPH WR PLQG ZKHQ \RX PHQWLRQHG HHULQHVV EHLQJ DQ HOHPHQW WKDW \RX JUDYLWDWH WR ,W¶V HQWLWOHG ³7DOO\´ DQG LW FRXOG EH LQWHUSUHWHG DV D PR PHQW VWXFN LQ WLPH 7KDW ZDV P\ LQWURGXFWLRQ WR EHLQJ DWWUDFWHG WR 7UXPS Lloyd paintings. I wanted to approach painting more sculpturally by recreating a condensated mirror, more so the idea of a condensated bathroom mirror. I did trial and HUURU E\ ¿JXULQJ RXW KRZ WR PDNH D FRQGHQVDWHG PLUURU which I discovered by accident by using mirror spray. It’s mirror spray paint, where you can turn glass into any reÀHFWLYH VXUIDFH 6R , VSUD\HG LW RQ EDFNZDUG ZKLFK , WULHG to wipe, and then behind it was already a mirror because , DOVR VSUD\HG WKH RWKHU VLGH 7KHQ , WXUQHG LW RYHU DV LW dried and was like, “Wait, this looks like a condensated mirror now.” I don’t know where the marks came about, but it was hilarious to always step out of the shower and VHH \RXU RULJLQDO OLNH ¿QJHUSULQW VPXGJHV RQ WKH EDWKroom mirror and a ton of tally marks. I feel like that also VWHPV IURP P\ 2&' DQG MXVW KDYLQJ WKLQJV SHUIHFWHG LQ this sense of repetition and patterns.

$ FROOHFWLRQ RI \RXU ZRUNV ZDV SUHVHQWHG DW WKH /LQH +RWHO LQ /RV $QJHOHV LQ HQWLWOHG 5HG %DOO ZKLFK XQIRUWXQDWHO\ KDG D VKRUW OLIH GXH WR &RYLG ORFN GRZQV &DQ \RX VSHDN WR WKDW H[SHULHQFH DQG ERG\ RI ZRUN" 6R WKDW ZDV OLNH WKH ERG\ RI ZRUN ZLWK WKH WDOO\ PDUNV DQG VPXGJHV 7KHQ WKHUH ZDV DQRWKHU PLUURU ZLWK D JDPH RI tic-tac toe. Which was a condensated mirror painting of tic tac toe games where no one’s, the layer of games that were played on top or like hypothetically played on top. It VKRZHG WKDW QRERG\ ZRQ 6R WKH\ ZHUH DOO ¿OOHG VSDFHV without someone actually winning. ,I \RX ZHUH DQ RQ ORRNHU IURP 6WUHHW 9LHZ WKH ZRUNV FRXOG WDNH RQ D QHZ FRQWH[W $OPRVW IHHOLQJ OLNH VRPHWKLQJ LQVWDOODWLRQ UHODWHG I never really thought about it that way. Like the idea that it lives on its own, and then the eeriness of this room that could be foggy or condensated knowing that the hotel was unoccupied. Or how an idea of the works is living in D VSDFH ZKHUH QR RQH LV WKHUH 7KHUH ZDV GH¿QLWHO\ WKLV HUD ZKHUH , ZDV H[SORULQJ YDULRXV PDWHULDOLWLHV DQG XQGHUVWDQGLQJ 7KHUH ZHUH VSHFL¿F FRQFHSWV WKDW , IHOW OLNH I played around with, which all revolved around knowing that a lot of those things stood still in this kind of distinctive way that you usually wouldn’t see a jump rope being knotted, but still holding a lot of pressure. , VDZ D SLFWXUH RQ \RXU ,QVWDJUDP RI VRPHWKLQJ \RX JLIWHG D IULHQG ,W ORRNHG OLNH D SDSHU WRZHO RU WRLOHW SDSHU KROGHU \RX FUHDWHG XVLQJ D EXQJHH FRUG +DYH \RX FUDIWHG DQ\ RWKHU LGHDV WKDW ZHUH JLIWHG" It’s probably just the paper towel holders. I tried to make larger sculptures from that bungee chord, but I didn’t like WKH LGHD RI WUDQVIRUPLQJ WKHP VR VLJQL¿FDQWO\ ,W PDGH EHWWHU VHQVH IRU VXFK D VPDOO REMHFW $W WKDW WLPH , ZDV kind of messing around and was curious about trying to IUHH]H WKLQJV ,W ZDV GXULQJ WKH WLPH RI WKH PLUURU SDLQWLQJV 7KLV FRUUHVSRQGV WR WU\LQJ WR PDNH WKLQJV VWDQG VWLOO while referring back to photography and still snapshots, IUHH]LQJ WKLV OLNH D VSHFL¿F WLPHIUDPH RU PRPHQW %HVLGHV that, there was another idea that I was supposed to gift to a friend, but I put a pause on it. Because I usually get tired, well, not tired, but I lose the capacity to think about

PDWHULDOV WKDW PXFK 6R , ZRUN RQ D IHZ WKLQJV DW RQFH Work that I can bounce back and forth between. ,W VHHPV OLNH D EDODQFHG ZD\ WR ZRUN ,W FDQ DOORZ PRUH WLPH WR PHGLWDWH RQ VSHFL¿F LGHDV RU KHOS UH¿QH \RXU ZRUN Yeah, I like being around things, whether you’re like making them, touching them, or more so walking by them.

7KHUH¶V WKLV VXEFRQVFLRXV SDUW ZKHUH \RX¶UH WKLQNLQJ about them, enhancing new ideas or changes. Critiques on it that later resurfaces that one can’t think of at that PRPHQW 7KDW¶V KRZ , YLHZ WKDW SURFHVV MXVW OLNH KDYLQJ this scattered mindset.

6RPHWLPHV ,¶OO SLFN XS VRPH KXPRU HPEHGGHG LQ \RXU ZRUNV $UH \RX FXULRXV WR NQRZ LI WKDW¶V D FDOFX ODWHG HOHPHQW RU PRUH RUJDQLF" I feel like it’s more organic, but then also thought out in the VHQVH WKDW LW VWHPV IURP P\ RFG 7KHUH DUH VRPH SDUWV where I would want to make something so clean and almost like it was factory-made in ways. But then there are VRPH WLPHV ZKHQ ¿QLVKHG WKLQJV ORRN WRR FOHDQ DQG LW feels more like a design aesthetic, which I try to revert from. I guess the humor part is when I feel conscious about using it to dissect the form from its perfectionist presentation. I found it funny to break this idea of gesture through sculpture. $Q H[DPSOH ZDV WKLV SLHFH IURP RU ¶ ZKHUH OLPH is stapled to the mesh. It was more so this decision, I feel like humor partakes into the idea also of improvisation ZKHUH PRUH VR WKLV GHFLVLRQ WR DGG D OLPH ZDV WR ¿OO NLQG of the space that it left with like the stapler, which I felt like shoving a piece of lime in there. I don’t know. I just felt like it would be hilarious to kind of see a lime. In its state, knowing that it feels and looks like a lime, it’s also not decomposing. It’s this idea of being stuck in time that I feel like I’ve always been attracted to.

$W ZKLFK SRLQW GR \RX ¿QG \RXUVHOI DEOH WR VWHS DZD\ IURP D SLHFH RU GHHP LW ¿QLVKHG" I guess more so it’s intuition, and that refers back to that question about the humor part embedded in my work where there are some times when things are fully made, DQG WKH\¶UH WRR SHUIHFW 7KHUH¶V DOZD\V WKH GHFLVLRQ WR NQRZ ZKHQ VRPHWKLQJ¶V ¿QLVKHG LV WR PDNH VRPHWKLQJ that is a contrasting gesture, whether it’s doing something poorly made that’s being attached to something that’s H[TXLVLWHO\ PDGH DQG ZHOO UH¿QHG :KHUH , WKLQN WKRVH JHVWXUHV GLFWDWH LI VRPH WKLQJV DUH ¿QLVKHG RU QRW $QG it’s more about just seeing and encountering the objects’ presentation. In undergrad, a week before crit, a profesVRU PHQWLRQHG KRZ LI \RX NQRZ H[DFWO\ ZKDW \RX¶UH JRLQJ WR PDNH IRU FULW GRQ¶W ERWKHU EULQJLQJ LW WR FODVV 7KHQ KH ZHQW RQ WDONLQJ DERXW KRZ KH ZDQWHG XV WR H[SORUH DQG make things that fall under the category of unfamiliarity, where you can sort of encounter and make things based on intuition while learning other materials. &RXOG \RX VSHDN WR VRPH RI WKH WKHPDWLFV LQ \RXU QHZ ZRUNV" I propose making 24 of these works with my new body RI ZRUN (DFK FORFN ZLOO WKHQ EH VHW WR HDFK WLPH ]RQH RI the world, and I would want all 24 clocks to be cut in half DQG H[LVW DQG VWD\ LQ WKH 6WDWHV DQG WKHQ LQ (XURSH VR WKDW VRPH RI WKH WLPH ]RQHV FDQ DOVR IDOO LQWR WKHLU RULJLQDO time. /LNH WKH QDWXUDO VHWWLQJ ¿QGLQJ LWV ZD\ EDFN KRPH" <HV H[DFWO\ $FWXDOO\ , IHHO OLNH , QHYHU UHDOO\ WHOO DQ\RQH these, but a lot of the works, like the padded envelope or the baseboards, are all segments of this idea of building WKLV JLDQW KRXVH 7KH\¶UH DOO VXSSRVHG WR EH WKLV SUHGLFWed room and be associated with what could be in that URRP RU KRZ WKDW URRP LV IUDPHG 6R HYHQWXDOO\ PDNLQJ a ton of these sculptures, whether it’s like hand railings WR WKH ÀRRUERDUGV WR WKH EDVHERDUGV DQG WKHQ WR HYHQ PD\EH FRRN UDFNV , ZRXOG ZDQW WKHP WR H[LVW NLQG RI RU ODWHU WKHQ ¿QG WKHLU RZQ KRPH ZKHUH \RX FDQ PDVK WKHP all up and create this ideal setting of what could be the room of a house. &DQ ZH VHH KRZ \RX VSHQG \RXU VWXGLR GD\V"

I usually go to the studio after work and get there around seven. I’ll eat a small dinner and then look around at the ZRUNV ,¶YH VWDUWHG 7KHQ , WHQG WR JUDYLWDWH WRZDUGV D VSHFL¿F SLHFH WKDW , ZDQW WR VWDUW EDVHG RQ WKH GHFLVLRQ RI ZKDW WR DGG QH[W DQG WKDW LV PRUH LQ IDYRU RI P\ PRRG and how energetic I feel. I’ll try and tackle complicated VWXII ¿UVW E\ GULOOLQJ KROHV WKDW DUH VSHFL¿FDOO\ WZR PLOlimeters deep. Or there are days when I’ll take leather scraps and do like a dye cut. But yeah, I tend to go to the studio after work from seven to no later than one in the PRUQLQJ , JR WR P\ VWXGLR IURP 0RQGD\ WR 7KXUVGD\ , often make Fridays my days off, and on those days, I’m PRUH VR UHOD[HG , GR WKH PRUH LQWHQVH HUUDQGV WKDW XVXally involve going to a metal supply store, leather warehouse, or this marble scrapyard, many of which are in 9HQWXUD 7KDW ZDV PDLQO\ P\ GD\V RII EHFDXVH LW ZDV DOPRVW D WZR KRXU GULYH 6R WKDW¶V XVXDOO\ MXVW WKH VFKHGule. It’s not strict, but it’s got some structure to it.

7R ZKDW HIIHFW GRHV VWUXFWXUH KDYH RQ \RXU SUDFWLFH" No structure wouldn’t inform my practice. By creating a system, since everything falls under the idea of making things at high precision, it is necessary to have the strucWXUH WR PD[LPL]H WKH WLPH SUHVHQWHG LQ WKH VWXGLR DV RSposed to being entirely intuitive and kind of just throwing things or drawing holes and screwing things to other items and throwing paint on there. I need to have this segregated time one night for this, the second night is for prepping or painting, and then the day off is to see what it turns out to be after dry time. Before, I had a little structure. I would go to the studio before work, be there for an hour, DQG WKHQ OHDYH 7KDW ZDV ZKHQ , GLGQ¶W UHDOO\ XQGHUVWDQG the structure, and it messed with how I made things. It created a lot of doubt because I thought I couldn’t allow myself to take breaks, and it was more so this idea of making, making, making. It led to this idea that whatever I make will be good because I’m always here and surrounded by work all the time. But the best way of thinking is to separate yourself from the work sometimes. Once that clicked, I ended up being happier, and I felt like I was thinking with a refreshed mind, formed new perspectives, \RX¶UH PRUH HQHUJL]HG HW FHWHUD

&0 L

FRANK OCKEN lll

K NFELS

&0 L

BLAKE KUNIN

in CONVERSATION with

ROB CRISTOFARO

%ODNH .XQLQ LV D 1HZ <RUN EDVHG SKRWRJUDSKHU ERUQ DQG UDLVHG LQ 6DQ )UDQFLVFR &DOLIRUQLD +H LV NQRZQ IRU KLV GRFXPHQWDU\ VW\OH SKRWRJ UDSK\ +LV LQPDWH SLFWXUHV RI *UDIILWL DQG 1HZ <RUN &LW\ KDYH D VW\OH IDPLOLDU ZLWK JUHDW SKRWRJUDSKHUV VXFK DV /HH )ULHGODQGHU DQG :LOOLDP .OHLQ +LV ODWHVW ERRN %DUN DW WKH 0RRQ SXEOLVKHG E\ 5DE $UWVl JLYHV XS FORVH DQG SHUVRQDO SXEOLF DFFHVV WR WKH XQGHUJURXQG ZRUOG RI JUDI ILWL YDQGDOLVP %ODNH .XQLQĶV VHYHQ \HDU SURMHFW VKDGRZV JUDIILWLĶV PRVW LQIDPRXV QLJKWFUDZOHUV $'(. %. &+ ($6< *22* *86( +281' /(:< 0$/92 0(5&+ 04 DQG PRUH 7KLV ERRN GRFXPHQWV *UDIILWLĶV VHFUHWLYH FXOWXUH XVLQJ UDZ DQG JULWW\ ILOP VKRWV RI VWUHHW YDQGDOLVP VWUHHW ILJKWV UDFNLQJ DQG EODFN ERRN SDUDSKHUQDOLD %ULQJ LQ WKH WUXH HVVHQFH RI WKH ZRUOG RI *UDIILWL %DUU\ 0F*HH DND 7:,67 D OHJHQGDU\ ZULWHU VDLG

ĸ%ODNH .XQLQĶV SKRWRV VFDUH WKH OLYLQJ GD\OLJKWV RXW RI PH 0\ ORYH RI FKDRV DQG DQDUFK\ RQ WKH VWUHHWV KDV EHHQ RQJRLQJ IRU GHFDGHV 7KHVH SKRWRJUDSKV OHW PH VWXG\ LQ FRPIRUW WKH EROG OLQHV JHVWXUHV WKDW VWLOO UHVRQDWH ZLWK PH WR WKLV YHU\ GD\ ZLWK PRUH XUJHQF\ WKDQ HYHU Ĺ

)RU WKLV LVVXH .XQLQ VDW GRZQ ZLWK WKH RZQHU RI 5DE $UWVl DQG FUHDWRU RI $OLIHl 5RE &ULVWRIDUR WR WDON DERXW DXWKHQWLFDOO\ GRFXPHQWLQJ *UDI ILWL WKDW LV VR FORVH DQG SHUVRQDO WR WKHP 7KH\ DOVR FRYHU WKH WULDO DQG WULEXODWLRQV RI WXUQLQJ WKLV ERRN LQWR UHDOLW\ DQG WKH WKRXJKW SURFHVV RI SURGXFLQJ ZRUN WKDW VWLOO IHHOV DXWKHQWLF HYHQ ZKHQ ZRUNLQJ IRU PRUH SURPLQHQW EUDQGV VXFK DV /RXLV 9XLWWRQ 3XPD DQG 7LPEHUODQG

RC <R +DSS\ ZH¶UH KDYLQJ WKLV FRQYHUVDWLRQ HVSHFLDO O\ ULJKW QRZ LW IHHOV YHU\ UHOHYDQW WR XV ERWK <RX MXVW SXW RXW %DUN $W 7KH 0RRQ VR , ZDQWHG WR WDON WR \RX DERXW LW¶V UHOHYDQFH WR JUDI¿WL DQG KRZ \RX¶UH EDODQFLQJ SXWWLQJ \RXUVHOI LQ D PRUH FRPPHUFLDO VSDFH ZLWK WKH ZD\ WKLQJV DUH ULJKW QRZ

PHUFLDO VSDFH 7KH\ JHW LQWHUHVWHG FDXVH \RX¶UH GRFX PHQWLQJ WKH OLIHVW\OH ULJKW" :KLFK LV PDGH XS RI D SUHWW\ IXFNLQJ FRORUIXO JURXS RI SHRSOH«LW¶V DOO GLIIHUHQW FRORUV

5HFHQW , ZRUNHG RQ D SURMHFW ZLWK /RXLV 9XLWWRQ EHIRUH WKLV SURMHFW DQG VDZ KRZ WKHVH ELJ FRPSDQLHV ZDQW D SLHFH RI RXU FRPPXQLW\

7KHUH ZDV DOZD\V D IXFNLQJ PL[WXUH RI SHRSOH EXW EDFN WKHQ LW ZDV PRUH JDQJ EDVHG«OHVV DERXW WKH IXQ \RX NQRZ" , WKLQN LW¶V EHFDPH D OLWWOH PRUH FRPPHUFLDO QRZ %XW , VWLOO WKLQN JUDI¿WL KDV DOO RI WKH VDPH JULPH WR LW

$EVROXWHO\ :DV LW OLNH WKDW EDFN LQ WKH GD\" :DV LW DV PL[HG as it is now?

BK <HDK -XVW DOO HQHUJ\ EUR DQG D ORW RI LW 7RWDOO\ I try to keep it just like being in the cut and working on my thing ZLWK QRWKLQJ -XVW GRLQJ PH EHIRUH WKLV RU DQ\ EUDQGV ZHUH hitting me up.

5LJKW«OLNH DW OHDVW WKH\ FDQ JLYH \RX DQ RSSRUWXQLW\ WR GR \RXU WKLQJ DQG DFWXDOO\ PDNH D SUR¿W IURP LW

)DFWV (YHQ ZLWK JUDI¿WL EHFRPLQJ PRUH FRPPHUFLDO \RX FDQ¶W SXW WKH ZKROH RI LI LQWR D ER[ <RX FDQ¶W FRQWURO WKLV VKLW DQG the people in it, that are really in it, they’re wild. $QG WKDW¶V WKH GLIIHUHQFH :KHQ ZH GLG $/,)( ZH KDG WR UHDOL]H RXU FOLHQWHOH ZHUH DOO JUDI¿WL SHRSOH SULPDULO\ ,W¶V QRW OLNH 6XSUHPH EHLQJ EDVHG LQ VNDWH ZKLFK WKHUH DUH FUD]\ SHRSOH LQ WRR EXW QRW OLNH WKH JUDI¿WL FRPPXQLW\ ,W¶V HYHQ PRUH SROLWLFDO ZLWK WKLV VKLW ,W¶V QRW D JDPH SHRSOH GLH RYHU LW

Yeah, they just let me do me. ([DFWO\«WKDW¶V KRZ , ZRUN«ZH ERWK FRPH IURP JUDI¿WL DQG KDYH WR NHHS WKDW DXWKHQWLF LI ZH VWHS LQWR D FRP

7KDW¶V ZK\ , EURXJKW WKLV ERRN WR \RX WKRXJK %HFDXVH , NQRZ \RX¶UH IURP WKLV VKLW 7KLV VKLW FRXOGQ¶W EH EURXJKW WR VRPH random publisher. Everyone in it trusted me to take their pho-

EORFN OHWWHUV EODFN DQG ZKLWH ERRPLQJ IXFNLQJ VKLW (YHQ WKH UXOHV RI UHVSHFW DQG GLVUHVSHFW WKH\ HYHQ SOD\HG LQ WR WKH SURIHVVLRQDO ZRUOG , VWHSSHG LQWR«OLNH«,¶P D FRRO PRWKHUIXFNHU« , IXFNLQJ IXFN ZLWK HYHU\ERG\ XQWLO« … you fucking play me out. <HDK 8QWLO \RX GR VRPH VWXSLG VKLW , WKLQN WKH JUDI¿WL FRP PXQLW\ LV SUREDEO\ WKH PRVW DXWKHQWLF IXFNLQJ FRPPXQLW\ ,W¶V D JOREDO IDPLO\ \RX NQRZ \RX¶UH :HVW &RDVW ,¶P (DVW &RDVW EXW LW GRHVQ¶W IXFNLQJ PDWWHU )DFWV %HFDXVH WKH JUDI¿WL FRPPXQLW\ WKH\¶OO WHOO \RX LI \RXU VKLW¶V ZDFN WKH\ GRQ¶W JLYH D IXFN 7KHUH¶V QR ¿OWHU LQ WKLV VKLW LI fools aren’t feeling it, they’ll just let you know.

tos it has to be presented in the right way. You have to honor your world and the people in it. ([DFWO\«\RX¶UH QRW SXWWLQJ IRUWK VRPH IUDXGXOHQW VKLW 3XWWLQJ WKLV ERRN RXW ZLWK 3XPD ZDV D VLWXDWLRQ ZKHUH LW KDG WR EH GRQH ZLWK QR ÀXII :H¶UH LQWURGXFLQJ QHZ SHRSOH WR RXU ZRUOG YLD WKHP DQG LW KDV WR EH DXWKHQWLF LI ZH¶UH JRQQD OHW WKHP LQ ,¶YH SXW WKDW VDPH PHQWDOLW\ LQWR HYHU\WKLQJ , KDYH GRQH P\ ZKROH OLIH HVSHFLDOO\ ZLWK JUDI¿WL ,¶YH ZURWH PRVW RI P\ IXFNLQJ OLNH ,W¶V D IXFNLQJ DGGLFWLRQ«RQFH , ZDV LQ , EDVHG P\ ZKROH OLIH DURXQG LW 6R LW FRPHV GRZQ WR EHLQJ WUXH WR \RXU FUDIW , PHDQ WKDW¶V WKH WKLQJ IRU PH , WKLQN WKDW JUDI¿WL VXEFRQsciously played a big role in my photography, because I GRQ¶W ZDQW WR IDNH QRWKLQJ LQ WKH JUDI¿WL VKLW 6R , VWDUWHG WR XVH WKH VDPH PLQGVHW RI JUDI¿WL ZKHQ , VWDUWHG WDNLQJ SLFtures. I started going down the rabbit hole, processing my RZQ ¿OP PDNLQJ P\ RZQ SULQWV EXLOGLQJ D GDUNURRP«DOO WKDW VKLW LV UHDOO\ DW URRWHG LQ JUDI¿WL FXOWXUH«QRW ZDQWLQJ WR fake the funk.

(YHQ ZLWK $/,)( DV D EUDQG WKH ORJRV DQG HYHU\ WKLQJ ZHUH DOO EDVHG XSRQ P\ ZKDW , GLG LQ JUDI¿WL 7KH

,W¶V QRW OLNH IDVKLRQ EDVHG ,W¶V UDZ DUW 5LJKW QRZ <RX FDQ¶W IURQW LW (LWKHU \RX¶UH LQ LW RU QRW <RX¶YH PDGH D QDPH IRU \RXUVHOI LQ LW WKRXJK 7KDW¶V UHDOO\ WKH RQO\ ZD\ WKDW IXFNLQJ SHRSOH DUH JRLQJ WR UHVSHFW \RX LQ WKH JDPH LV LI \RX SD\ \RXU GXHV ULJKW" <RX NQRZ SXW LQ \RXU IXFNLQJ OHJ ZRUN <RX VHH WKH SHRSOH WKDW DUH WKH NLQJV RI WKH JDPH DQG WKH\¶UH IXFNLQJ FUD]\ 7KH\ OLYH WKURXJK DOO WKH VKLW DQG PDNH LW RXW WKRVH VWRULHV DUH WKH LOOHVW 7KDW¶V ZK\ WKH ERRN LV VR LQWHUHVWLQJ WR PH DQG KRZ \RX GRFXPHQW LW DOO 7\SLFDOO\ , ZRXOGQ¶W JHW EHKLQG VRPHWKLQJ WKDW ZDVQ¶W FHQWHU DURXQG 1HZ <RUN DQG %70 LV QRW D 1HZ <RUN FHQWULF FUHZ EXW , WKLQN WKLV PDGH PH ZDQW WR UHFRJ QL]H WKH JOREDO FRPPXQLW\ 7KH ERRN LV D VQDSVKRW RI WKLV HUD«DQG ZH GLG WKLV LQGHSHQGHQWO\ ZKLFK ZDV FUD]\ <HDK 7KLV ZDV D ELJ IXFNLQJ SURMHFW ZLWK DQ\ RWKHU SXEOLVKHU LW would have taken at least a year just to get it moving let alone made.

'HDOLQJ ZLWK QHJRWLDWLQJ SULFHV GXULQJ &29,' VKLSSLQJ DQG REVWDFOHV ZDV LQVDQHO\ VWUHVVIXO %XW LW¶V DQ RSSRUWX QLW\ WR WHOO D VWRU\ EH\RQG WUHQGV«ZKHQ D ERRN LV GRQH ULJKW LW EHFRPHV VRPHWKLQJ VSHFLDO , OHDUQHG D ORW DERXW WKH ERRN JDPH WKURXJK WKH SURFHVV +RQ-

7RWDOO\ , PHDQ WKDW¶V ZK\ , IHOW OLNH , QHHGHG WR UHDOO\ JR KDUG with the graff book before before moving on because it’s not right to start trying to do other things when I need to pay homDJH WR WKH EHJLQQLQJ , JRW LQWR WDNLQJ SLFWXUHV IURP JUDI¿WL LQLWLDOO\ IURP EHLQJ RXW ERPELQJ ZLWK 6FKXEHUW UHVW LQ SHDFH I was taking pictures on cell phones, then he encouraged me to get a camera. I put it off for like two years and then move moved WR 1HZ <RUN DQG ¿QDOO\ OLVWHG DQG JRW D FDPHUD ,QLWLDOO\ DOO , ZDV SKRWRJUDSKLQJ ZDV JUDI¿WL EXW WKHQ JRLQJ GRZQ WKH UDEELW KROH I started becoming interested in photographing just everything.

6KLW WKDW , ZRXOGQ¶W HYHQ KDYH WKRXJKW DERXW LI ,¶G QHYHU JRWWHQ D camera, you know, just to see what it would look like.

-XVW VKRRWLQJ WKH OLIHVW\OH RI JUDI¿WL" estly, making this shit with you showed me how important the distribution and networking aspect is more than anything. ,W ZDV D QHZ H[SHULHQFH IRU PH DV ZHOO LQ D ORW RI ZD\V , JDYH \RX D ORW RI IUHHGRP ZLWK GHVLJQ ZKLFK LV VRPH WKLQJ , XVXDOO\ GR QRW GR <RX SUHWW\ PXFK GLG WKH ZKROH VKLW 7KH GHVLJQ ZDV DQ H[WHQVLRQ RI \RXU ZRUN VR , ZDV FRRO ZLWK LW«\RX KDG D YLVLRQ ,I , GLGQ¶W OLNH LW , ZRXOG EH FRVLJQLQJ LW 5$% $UWV LV D QHZ SURMHFW IRU PH DQG WKLV ERRN KHOSHG PH XQGHUVWDQG ZKDW H[DFWO\ LW LV DQ RSSRUWXQLW\ WR PDNH SURGXFWV ZLWK SHRSOH , UHVSHFW OLNH \RXUVHOI Right! I think that’s powerful too, because it’s like you give people the platform to do that and it’s not connected to all this noise of other shit or other opinions. It’s just straight natural.

(YHQ LQ WKH EHJJLQJ WKHUH ZDV WKH FRQYHUVDWLRQ DURXQG ZRUNLQJ ZLWK &DQDU\ RQ LW :KLFK PDGH VHQVH DW WKH WLPH WR GR ZLWK 9LUJLO«EXW QRZ ZLWK KLP EHLQJ JRQH LW MXVW GLGQ¶W PDNH DQ\ VHQVH 6R LW MXVW VHHPHG OLNH WKH PRYH WR VWDUW WKLV LQVWHDG

<HDK EXW WKHQ MXVW HYHU\WKLQJ LQ JHQHUDO *RLQJ WR SODFHV , would never go without a camera like Midtown. Why would I go to Midtown and be in the scene with business people, you know? But it’s just the curiosity of getting that camera and then just that rabbit hole started. I just kept shooting, I kept developLQJ WKH VNLOO RI VKRRWLQJ DQG WKHQ WXUQHG EDFN WR VKRRWLQJ JUDI¿WL :KHQ , FDPH EDFN WR VKRRWLQJ JUDI¿WL QRZ , FRXOG YLHZ GRFXmenting as a lifestyle…so much goes in to it it’s more than just the work. ,W¶V RXU OLIH ,W¶V WKH OLIH WKDW ZH OLYH 7KHUH¶V VR PDQ\ HOH PHQWV WR LW ,W¶V VHHLQJ WKDW FRPPRQ WKUHDG ZH DOO NQRZ DV JUDI¿WL ZULWHUV /LNH WKLV SLFWXUH RI D IXFNLQJ '65 VWDQGLQJ LQ IURQW RI D IXFNLQJ ELJ UDFN RI SDLQW«WKDW KLWV \RX D FHU WDLQ ZD\ \RX NQRZ" ,W¶V OLNH WKH VPHOO RI IXFNLQJ LQN /LNH DOO WKHVH GLIIHUHQW OLWWOH VKLWV , DOVR FRQQHFWHG WR WKH IDFW WKDW \RX ZHUH PDNLQJ ]LQHV 7KDW¶V P\ ZKROH VKLW SURGXFLQJ REMHFWV DQG SXWWLQJ WKHP RXW LQWR WKH ZRUOG , UHVSHFW WKDW \RX KDG WKH LQLWLDWLYH WR GR VRPHWKLQJ RQ \RXU RZQ DQG IXFNLQJ SXW LW RXW WKHUH +RQHVWO\ PDNLQJ WKH ]LQHV DQG DOO WKDW ZDV MXVW WUDLQLQJ IRU WKLV ERRN 7KH ERRN LV EDVLFDOO\ D KXJH ]LQH LW¶V VFUDSV RI GUDZLQJV and tags and collected items. It’s not just throwing a photograph

on a page and moving on, you. I developed that process PDNLQJ WKHVH ORZ EXGJHW ]LQHV WKDW , ZRXOG MXVW VHOO WR WKH homies. ([DFWO\«WKH ZKROH SURMHFW ZDV LPSRUWDQW WR SXW LW LQ QHZ SHUVSHFWLYH 5HOHDVLQJ LW D SURSHU JDOOHU\ ZLWK HY HU\WKLQJ VHW XS LQ WKH ZD\ LW QHHGHG WR EH Right. It changes the perception, you know. It’s not just like, some some little shit on the street.

7KH VKRZ ZDV YHU\ LPSRUWDQW WR PDNH VXUH LW GLGQ¶W IHHO OLNH VRPH ;HUR[ VKLW 0RVW JUDI¿WL ZULWHUV GRQ¶W KDYH WKH EDQGZLGWK LW VHHPV OLNH WR SXVK WKH SUHVHQWDWLRQ WR WKH OHYHO LW QHHGV WR EH )RU VXUH 6HWWLQJ WKH ZKROH VKRZ XS ZDV D ELJ GHDO WR PH *HWWLQJ WKH JDWH IURP $'(.«MXVW NQRZLQJ , KDG WKH WUXVW RI everyone in the book I wanted to make it right.

3UHVHQWDWLRQ LV LPSRUWDQW , PHDQ , JHW LW <RX KDYH VRPH KHDY\ SHRSOH LQ WKHUH ,¶P «,¶P IXFNLQJ ZKDFN /DXJKV , ZDV D ERPEHU DQG , ORYHG ZKDW , GLG EXW \RX JRW SHRSOH OLNH -$:6 ($6< DQG IXFNLQJ -26+ LQ KHUH«WKH\ ZHUH IXFNLQJ NLQJV 5LJKW /LVWHQ WKDW¶V WKH ZKROH VKLW :KHQ , ¿UVW FDPH WR YLVLW New York in 2014, I was out one night randomly tagging ZLWK +281' DQG VRPH JX\ SXOOV XS KH¶V OLNH ³/HW PH VHH the can.” I had no idea who he was…we were hesitant to JLYH KLP D FDQ REYLRXVO\ EXW ZKHQ ZH GLG«ERRP ($6< <RX ZHUH OLNH ³:RRRRRRRZ ´ Yea then we stayed out bombing with him for the rest of the QLJKW +281' NHSW LQ FRQWDFW ZLWK KLP DIWHU WKDW QLJKW VR when I was getting serious about the book we hit him up. )XFN \HDK WKDW¶V WKH VKLW \RX NQRZ ,W¶V IXQQ\ , JDYH LW WR -HEELD DQG KH DVNHG PH LI WKH SKRWRV ZHUH IURP WKH HLJKWLHV«, ZDV OLNH QR LWV ULJKW QRZ«KH VDLG ³ , ORYH WKDW , ORRN WKURXJK LW DQG , KDYH QR LGHD ZKR DQ\ERG\ LV ´ , WKLQN SHRSOH QHHG WKDW QR VRFLDO PHGLD EXOOVKLW«ZH JRW D FRXSOH NQRZQ SHRSOH WKDW DUH K\SHG EH\RQG RXU FRPPXQLW\ EXW WKDW¶V LQHGLEOH Y$QG WKDW ZDV WKH LGHD DQG FRPPRQ WKUHDG WKURXJKRXW the book. I wanted it to be a snapshot of our time…but in 20 years you could open and see the same shit was going on…same traditions…regardless of time. ([DFWO\ OLNH«LW IRFXVHV RQ WKH ERPEHUV 3HRSOH RXW VLGH RI WKLV VKLW GRQ¶W JHW LW«EXW WKHUH¶V D GLIIHUHQFH 7KLV LVQ¶W OLNH SUHWW\ PXUDO VKLW &LW\ ERPELQJ LV D GLI IHUHQW WKLQJ«WKH\¶UH OLNH WKH VROGLHUV RI JUDI¿WL 7KDW¶V ZKDW , DOZD\V JUDYLWDWHG WRZDUGV«ERPEHUV IURP &$3 SHRSOH RQ WKDW WLS 7KH NLGV LQ %DUN DW 7KH 0RRQ KDYH EHHQ LQ WKLV ZULWLQJ IRU RYHU \HDUV

<HD OLNH ($6< DQG 04 DQG VKLW %XW WKHQ \RX JRW WKH RWKHU HQG RI WKH VSHFWUXP OLNH \RX NQRZ 72%(5 LQ KLV WZHQWLHV \RXQJ NLG NLQJ RI 3KLOO\ VKLW It was interesting photographing it all…you’re limited…you can’t share no one’s face, right? You don’t want to have to EODFN RXW DQ\RQH¶V IDFH RQ WKH SULQW RU DQ\WKLQJ 6R LW¶V OLNH how do you make it interesting instead of just repetitive image of people writing?

I had to balance maintaining the integrity of my photography with not giving away too much…and I didn’t want it to feel OLNH ZKDW \RX VHH RQ ,* ,W WRRN D ORW EXW , WKLQN , ZDV DEOH WR show our world, while keeping everyones anonymity intact.

&0 L

HUSH I M P U L S E

PURCHASES

SKRWRJUDSK\ E\ 1255(/ %/$,5

VW\OLQJ E\ 6+$2-81 &+(1

thse things

that

i’ve

h

a

d

n

o

w

t

h

n

e

s

t

o

i

n

g

s

v

e

r

a

n

d

u

t

use

them

&

seem

like

i

up

a

healt

cheap

vers

trash

them

can’t

keep

thy

balance

sus

lavish

i’ll

caus

detach

i

can,

n o t h i n g

m a t t e r s

i

t

’

s

b

e

e

n

a

challenge

how

do

that someth

paying

how

do

i

i

prove

hing is worth

for?

prove

it?

&0 L

ANGELA

HOW H

E

G

E

NGUYEN LQWHUYLHZ 025,$1 7+20$6 SRWUDLWV <8'2 .85,7$

WE M

O

N

Y

07 +RZ :H +HJHPRQ\ +RZ¶G \RX ODQG RQ WKDW WLWOH" PH: I’m in grad school right now and I’m a critical cultural theories scholar, so I’ve recently been LQWURGXFHG WR D ORW RI WKHRU\ OLWHUDWXUH In general, I feel like we talk about how our culture, art, and society is affected by power dynamics.

7KLV LQÀXHQFHV KRZ ZH QDYLJDWH RXU OLIH GD\ WR GD\ 2QH RI WKH WKHRULVWV WKDW , ZDV LQVSLUHG E\ ZDV $QWRQLR *UDPVFL ZKR FRQFHSWXDOL]HG ³FXOWXUDO KHJHPRQ\ ´ :LWKLQ WKLV KH H[SODLQV D SKHQRPHQRQ ZKHUH GRPLQDQW JURXSV LQÀXHQFH DQG PDQLSXODWH FXOWXUH LQ VRFLHW\ ,Q WXUQ D ORW RI individuals follow a certain status quo and create widely accepted norms.

7KRVH QRUPV DUH RXU URXWLQH DQG RXU FXOWXUDO OLIHVW\OH WKDW LV EDVHG RQ SRZHU G\QDPLFV DQG WKH VWDWXV TXR DQG KRZ ZH SHUIRUP XQGHU WKH LQÀXHQFH RI SRZHU I thought that concept (cultural hegemony) was really interesting and so I thought of it in terms RI P\ DUW SUDFWLFH 6RPHWKLQJ WKDW ,¶YH H[SHULHQFHG LV WKDW LQ ¿QH DUW SHRSOH H[SHFW P\ ZRUN WR EH LQVWDOOHG LQ FHUWDLQ ZD\V ,W QHHGV WR EH RQ WKH ZDOO RU LW QHHGV WR EH RQ WKH ÀRRU 7KH\ VD\ ³<RX QHHG WR GHFLGH ´ 2U OLNH ³WKLQJV QHHG WR VLW FHQWHUHG RQ WKH ÀRRU´ RU ³LQVWDOOHG RQ WKH ZDOO´ WR IXQFWLRQ DV D SLHFH WR JD]H DW DQG OLNH QRW WR WRXFK LW $QG LW¶V OLNH VRPH OX[XU\ WKLQJ WKDW ZH FDQ¶W UHDOO\ HQJDJH ZLWK RWKHU WKDQ ZLWK RXU H\HV $QG VR , just thought that was so contradictory to my artwork. I thought it was bullshit that our institutions were telling me that I had to decide how I wanna install my work in a way that felt static. Like, it QHHGHG WR SOD\ D PRQRJDPRXV UROH HVVHQWLDOO\ /LNH ³\RX KDYH WR HLWKHU SXW LW RQ WKH ÀRRU RU RQ WKH ZDOO ´ <RX QHHG WR GHFLGH LW KDV WR EH RQH RI WKRVH WZR <RX FDQ¶W KDYH ERWK 7KDW IHOW YHU\ culturally hegemonic to me. In response, I was like, why the fuck not?

6R LV WKDW WKH GHFLGLQJ IDFWRU EHKLQG WKH RQH SLHFH ZKHUH OLNH WKH JX\ LV LQ WKH DQJOH RI WKH ZDOO" %HWZHHQ FRUQHUV <HDK«7KDW SLHFH LV FDOOHG +RZ WR %HQG 7KDW RQH , PDGH ZLWK WKH SXUSRVH RI KDYLQJ YDULRXV GLIIHUHQW IXQFWLRQDOLWLHV 7KH ZKROH SXUSRVH RI PH PDNLQJ WKDW UXJ ZDV WR VKRZ that an artwork can have many different functionalities.

5LJKW ULJKW +ROG RQ , ZDQW WR VKRZ \RX WKLV SLFWXUH VKRZV SLFWXUH RI :+<"!

I mean the rugs in general can have so many different functionalities in terms of its installation. It FRXOG EH RQ WKH ÀRRU LW FRXOG EH OLNH KDOI RQ WKH ZDOO KDOI RQ WKH ÀRRU LW FRXOG EH XSVLGH GRZQ RQ a wall. :KHQ , PDGH WKDW SLHFH DQG ZKHQ , PDGH +RZ WR %HQG , FUHDWHG WKRVH ZLWK WKH LGHD LQ PLQG WKDW , ZDQWHG WKHP WR IXQFWLRQ LQ VR PDQ\ GLIIHUHQW ZD\V $QG VR , WKLQN WKDW¶V DQ DVSHFW RI KHJHPRQ\ WKDW LQVSLUHG WKH WLWOH RI P\ VKRZ ,W¶V FDOOHG +RZ :H +HJHPRQ\ EHFDXVH ,¶P DVNLQJ P\VHOI +RZ GR ZH DSSURDFK WKH FRQFHSW RI KHJHPRQ\ DV D VRFLHW\ DQG PRUH LPSRUWDQWO\ LQ DUW" +RZ can those two have a conversation? When I’m making a piece like that and I’m installing it on the wall and there’s a person who’s observing it or a consumer of art who’s looking at it, they have agency in deciding how they wanna perceive it and how they think that that piece of art can look in different forms.

I mean, that’s just one aspect of the show, there’s so many different societal aspects of cultural KHJHPRQ\ WKDW DUH DOVR LQÀXHQFHG LQ WKH ZRUN EH\RQG ³DUW´ DQG LWV LQVWDOODWLRQ , UHDG LQ DQRWKHU LQWHUYLHZ ZKHUH \RX ZHUH VD\LQJ EDVHG RII \RXU FRQFHSW RI UXJV WKH\ DUH PHDQW WR EH VTXDUH RU LQ WKHVH WUDGLWLRQDO VKDSHV DQG \RX KDG WURXEOH DFWXDOO\ VWDUWLQJ WR GR DEVWUDFW YHUVLRQV RI LW $QG VR ZKHQ , VHH WKDW , VHH WKH WLWOH EHLQJ NLQG RI WKLV IRUP RI

UHEHOOLRQ IRU \RX WR EH OLNH \R WXIWLQJ KDV EHHQ D MRXUQH\ IRU PH DOUHDG\ KHUH¶V D GLIIHUHQW YHUVLRQ RI LW <HDK , WKLQN LW¶V DOVR UHVLVWLQJ WKH VWDWXV TXR RI ZKDW ZH VHH UXJV RU WXIWLQJ WR EH 6XFK DV FLUFXODU REMHFWV RU VTXDUH UHFWDQJXODU SLHFHV RQ WKH ÀRRU WKDW NLQG RI OD\ WKHUH DQG DUH D YHU\ VWDWLF VKDSH I think that my work is resistant to that and it borrows very abstract forms that are obviously very UHVLVWDQW WR WKH FRPPHUFLDOL]DWLRQ DQG LQGXVWU\ RI FDUSHW PDNLQJ LQ JHQHUDO 'H¿QLWHO\ <HDK 6R DUH \RX LQ WXUQ OLNH DQ DQRPDO\ LQ WKH LQGXVWU\" I’d hate to say that. I don’t know. I don’t hate the word anomaly, but I hate referring to myself as DQ DQRPDO\ , WKLQN WKDW ,¶P MXVW WDNLQJ WKH SUDFWLFH DQG ,¶P VRUW RI H[SORULQJ LW DQG H[SHULPHQWLQJ with it in my own way. I think there are so many other tufters that are doing very abstract shit, and it’s cool. <RX GRQ¶W GR DV PDQ\ FRPPLVVLRQV DQ\PRUH ZKDW PDGH \RX WUDQVLWLRQ DZD\ IURP DUWLVW IRU KLUH WR DUWLVW" I mean, I have no problem with producing because that’s where people make the most money. , VWDUWHG GRLQJ WKDW ZKHQ , ¿UVW VWDUWHG WXIWLQJ , PDGH FDUWRRQ FKDUDFWHUV IRU P\ IULHQGV DQG LI people wanted a rug, I’d make them something. But then, I started to make my own work and it VWDUWHG JHWWLQJ DWWHQWLRQ DQG , MXVW HQMR\HG FUHDWLQJ ZRUN EDVHG RQ P\ RZQ FRQFHSWV 7KH IDFW that people enjoyed the work I was making based on my own choices made me feel empowered.

I feel like the industry of tufting or the craft of tufting is so saturated with people who do produce commissioned outsourced designs. You can just manufacture the work from commercial tufters yourself. You don’t need someone like me to do that for you because I feel like if you get it done commercially, they would do a better job than me anyways. If somebody wanted a special piece and wanted to commission something that felt genuine to their story and they had a narrative in mind that they felt like I could depict for them in the best way, I would be stoked to do that. I just GRQ¶W WKLQN WKDW , ZRXOG HYHU EH LQWHUHVWHG LQ D SURGXFWLRQ RI ZRUN $W OHDVW QRW ULJKW QRZ ,W NLQG RI IHHOV OLNH WDWWRR DUWLVWV LQ D ZD\ ZKHUH \RX FDQ JR WR VRPHRQH ZKR FRXOG GR ÀDVK RU ZKDWHYHU \RX ZDQW RU \RX FDQ JR WR VRPHERG\ ZKR¶V OLNH WKLV LV P\ VW\OH Yeah. For sure. I mean, each person has a different type of rug making style, there’s so many tufters out there that make cool shit.

'R \RX ¿QG \RXUVHOI ORRNLQJ WR WKH OHIW DQG WKH ULJKW RU GR \RX VWHHU FOHDU RI ORRNLQJ DW RWKHU SHRSOH¶V ZRUN" No, I like looking, I like looking at what people are making, all the time. I do. I think that’s motivatLQJ IRU PH $QG , WKLQN WKDW WXIWLQJ LV VXFK D FUDIW\ WKLQJ , IHHO OLNH D QHJDWLYH DVSHFW RI WKH SUDFWLFH LV WKDW WKH ZD\ WKDW LW NLQG RI FDPH IRUWK LQ LWV UHQDLVVDQFH )RU H[DPSOH SHRSOH PDNLQJ UXJV RI VD\ D )UDQN 2FHDQ DOEXP RU 7\OHU WKH &UHDWRU SRUWUDLW± WKHUH DUH VR PDQ\ SHRSOH WXIWLQJ 3LNDFKX *RNX DQG DOO RI WKHVH WKLQJV 7KH\ DUH FKXUQLQJ WKHP RXW FRPPHUFLDOO\ DQG , WKLQN WKDW¶V D JUHDW thing, but I also think that there should be more ways that individuals take advantage of tufting in D PRUH H[SUHVVLRQLVW ¿QH DUW SUDFWLFH , DP VWDUWLQJ WR VHH WKDW KDSSHQ 6R GR \RX VWHHU FOHDU RI WKDW VWXII RU HPEUDFH LW I think it’s fucking dope actually. It’s funny and cool and I think that a lot of people who tuft love WR PDNH ERRWOHJ VKLW \RX NQRZ" 7KH\¶OO PDNH OLNH D IXFNLQJ 9LUJLO $EORK UXJ EHFDXVH WKH\ FDQ¶W DIIRUG DQ DFWXDO 2)) :+,7( UXJ DQG WKH\¶OO PDNH LW IRU WKHPVHOYHV DQG SXW LW LQ WKHLU URRP $QG ,¶P OLNH PRUH SRZHU WR \RX GXGH 3HRSOH FDQ¶W UHDOO\ DIIRUG OX[XU\ LWHPV $QG , WKLQN WKDW LW¶V UHDOO\ FRRO WKDW WKH SUDFWLFH VRUW RI DOORZV LQGLYLGXDOV WR FUHDWH WKHLU RZQ YHUVLRQ RI WKHVH OX[XU\ SURGXFWV

that they adore and just put it in their own home or sell it to other people. I mean, we see that everywhere, don’t we?

5LJKW ULJKW $QG IXFN LW , KDG D IULHQG ZKR VWDUWHG D EUDQG FDOOHG %RRWOHJ $QG KH¶V IURP +DUOHP , FDPH LQWR KLV RI¿FH DQG , ZDV OLNH ³\R GLG )HQGL PDNH D FKDLU"´ +H ZDV OLNH QDK EXW , WKRXJKW WKH\ VKRXOG $QG VR , PDGH WKLV and he like… put Fendi on it? <HDK +H KDG )HQGL DOO RYHU SULQW +HOO \HDK %UDQGLQJ LV VR IXQQ\ /X[XU\ EUDQGLQJ HVSHFLDOO\« 3HRSOH FDQ GR WKDW $QG , WKLQN WKDW LW¶V DZHVRPH DQG , ZRXOG GR LW WRR LI , ZDV WKDW LQYHVWHG LQ LW 7KDW¶V VR VLFN :KHQ , ¿UVW KHDUG DERXW \RX \RX ZHUH DQ $ 5 Embarrassing. %XW OLNH WKDW¶V D SRVLWLRQ WKDW SHRSOH FRQVLGHU WR EH DQ DUWLVW KHOSHU %XW QRZ \RX¶YH WUDQ VLWLRQHG WR DUWLVWV :KDW GR \RX IHHO VSDUNHG WKDW IRU \RX" $QG WKHQ DOVR KRZ GR \RX IHHO GRLQJ WKDW KHOSHG \RX" Yeah. I feel like I’ve never wanted to work for an employer. I’ve always wanted to work for myself, obviously, we all do. I think that the dream for every person is to work for themselves and not for DQ HPSOR\HU DQG IRU DQ LQGLYLGXDO WKDW NLQG RI GLFWDWHV WKHLU GD\ WR GD\ $QG VR QDWXUDOO\ , ORYH being an artist and working for myself and having agency with the work that I make and the art that I make. , GR WKLQN WKDW EHLQJ DQ $ 5 DQG ZRUNLQJ LQ WKH PXVLF LQGXVWU\ KHOSHG PH LQ D ORW RI ZD\V , WKLQN LW KHOSHG ZLWK P\ GLVFLSOLQH DQG DFWXDOO\ VWD\LQJ RUJDQL]HG DV DQ DUWLVW , IHHO OLNH RIWHQWLPHV SHRSOH MXVW VKLW RXW DUW DQG GRQ¶W DFWXDOO\ WKLQN DERXW WKH VWUXFWXUH RI WKH SUDFWLFH $QG WKH UHODWLRQVKLS EHFRPHV ZLWK WKH DUW LQGXVWU\ DQG WKH DUW PDUNHW , IHHO OLNH EHLQJ DQ $ 5 DQG UHSUHVHQWLQJ DUWLVWV and working with artists to get things done in terms of music making was very helpful for me in WKH SURIHVVLRQDO QRQ FUHDWLYH DVSHFW RI EHLQJ DQ DUWLVW $QG , IHHO OLNH WKDW¶V UHDOO\ LPSRUWDQW HVSHFLDOO\ DV VRPHRQH ZKR GLGQ¶W JR WR DUW VFKRRO ,¶P FRPSOHWHO\ VHOI WDXJKW $QG HYHU\WKLQJ WKDW I’ve learned has been based on trial and error. Working with musicians and being surrounded E\ RWKHU DUWLVWV RXWVLGH RI WKH ¿QH DUW ZRUOG LV PRWLYDWLQJ DQG LQVSLULQJ IRU PH ,W LQVSLUHV PH WR make certain art because, again, all of my art is about culture. It’s about music, it’s about internet UHIHUHQFHV WKHUH¶V SROLWLFDO UHIHUHQFHV WKHUH¶V DUW UHIHUHQFHV WKHUH¶V PHPH FXOWXUH 7KHUH DUH VR PDQ\ WKLQJV WKDW DUH HPEHGGHG LQ P\ ZRUN LQVSLUHG E\ ZKDW , GR HYHU\ VLQJOH GD\ $QG P\ journey from an adolescent to now. Or even before that! <HDK $QRWKHU TXHVWLRQ , KDG LV , VHH D ORW RI FXOWXUDO IUDPHZRUN LQ \RXU ZRUN $QG LW¶V NLQG RI LQ UHVSRQVH WR WKLQJV 7KHUH¶V IUHH]H IUDPHV RI FHUWDLQ WLPHV :KDW PDNHV \RX JUDYLWDWH WR WKDW DV RSSRVHG WR DOEXP FRYHUV DQG SRS DQLPDWLRQV" I mean, I am so obsessed with the internet. We talked about this last week when I was in New York. I love internet discourse. I know that sounds so lame and so stupid. ,¶P DOZD\V OXUNLQJ RQ 7ZLWWHU ,QVWDJUDP 5HGGLW DQG UHDGLQJ WKRVH WKLQJV DQG ODXJKLQJ EHFDXVH

QRWKLQJ UHDOO\ PDNHV PH ODXJK LQ WKLV ZRUOG RWKHU WKDQ VWXSLG VKLW , ¿QG RQ WKH LQWHUQHW , '0 P\ IULHQGV WKH VWXSLG VKLW WKDW , ¿QG RQ WKH LQWHUQHW FRQVWDQWO\ $QG D ORW RI WLPHV WKH\ GRQ¶W UHVSRQG EDFN WR PH , IHHO OLNH WKH DUW LV MXVW NLQG RI OLNH PH '0LQJ P\VHOI DQG MXVW VDYLQJ WKH WKLQJV WKDW , ¿QG KLODULRXV DQG KDYLQJ D FRQYHUVDWLRQ ZLWK P\VHOI WKURXJK P\ DUW &X] VRPHWLPHV SHRSOH GRQ¶W really want to engage with the spamming of it all.

When I see a funny meme, I’m like, screenshot! and then I throw that onto the rug. But there’s also just really funny and ironic narratives that I tell in my artwork outside of those memes but support the themes in storytelling. ,W¶V OLNH D PHQWDO PDS <HDK ([DFWO\ /LNH WKH UXJ %($7 83 WKDW¶V D FROODJH VXUURXQGLQJ DQ LPDJH RI 0XKDPPDG $OL DQG .HQ 1RUWRQ ER[LQJ 7KDW SLHFH ZDV EDVHG RQ WKH FRQFHSW RI PHGLD IUDPLQJ DQG DJHQGD VHWWLQJ ,W H[SODLQV KRZ LQGLYLGXDOV DUH PDQLSXODWHG LQWR EHOLHYLQJ FHUWDLQ WKLQJV LQ WKH QHZV PHGLD RU WKH PDLQVWUHDP PHGLD EDVHG RQ WKH FRUSRUDWH RU SROLWLFDO DJHQGD RI WKH 8 6 ,Q WKDW UXJ , KDYH VR many different random references that are both resistant and standard when it comes to the news PHGLD , KDYH KLV ¿UVW ¿UVW 7UXWK 6RFLDO SRVW 7UXPS HYHU GUDIWHG DQG D -HIIUH\ (SVWHLQ ERRN LQ WKHUH FX] WKHUH ZHUH MXVW OLNH VR PDQ\ FRQVSLUDF\ WKHRULHV WKDW KDG FRQVXPHG PH WKURXJK &29,' WKDW LQÀXHQFHG D ORW RI LQWHUQHW GLVFRXUVH DV RI ODWH , VSHQW KRXUV LQ WKDW VKLW , ZDV RYHU KHUH OLNH RK P\ JRG 3L]]D JDWH DOO WKDW VKLW , IHHO OLNH , OLVWHQHG WR KRXUV RI -HII (SVWHLQ VKLW ZKLFK ZDV VR IXQQ\ , OLVWHQHG WR WKH ZKROH *KLVODQH 0D[ZHOO WULDO RQ 7UXH $QRQ 2K P\ *RG I was obsessed! But that’s like the type of shit that I like to put into my rugs because I feel like it tells a story. I feel a lot of artists like to document the contemporary day and age that we’re living LQ , WKLQN WKDW LW¶V QLFH WR GRFXPHQW WKDW DQG WHOO D VWRU\ RI RXU H[SHULHQFH OLYLQJ LQ WKDW WLPH EXW also it’s like really fucking funny.

I think that a lot of my art is funny because I like to laugh and I think that art should make you laugh sometimes. , SHUVRQDOO\ WKLQN \RX¶UH D IXQQ\ KXPDQ ODXJKV! 7KDQN \RX <HDK WKDW URFNV %XW \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" , IHHO OLNH LQ ¿QH DUW ZH WDNH VKLW VR VHULRXVO\ DQG , GR WKLQN WKDW LV D ELJ SRLQW LQ PDNLQJ ZRUN , EHlieve artists should push beyond conceptual and performance art communicated literally through VXIIHULQJ DQG H[SORLWDWLRQ $UW FUHDWHG FDQ LQGHHG EH OLJKWKHDUWHG DQG IXQQ\ ZKLOH VWLOO LQYRNLQJ critical thought. I think that’s really important. I think we see that in music too. In music you see SHRSOH PDNLQJ YHU\ VHULRXV DQG DZHVRPH PXVLF $QG ZH DOVR VHH VKLW OLNH± /LNH .DQ\H EHLQJ OLNH ³VWLFN P\ ¿VW LQ KHU OLNH D FLYLO ULJKWV VLJQ ´ <XS H[DFWO\ (YHQ WKH ³SRRSLW\ VFRRS´ WUDFN $OH[ * PDGH DQ HQWLUH DOEXP DERXW KLJKHU SRZHU DQG -HVXV ZKHQ WKH JX\ , GRXEW LV HYHQ UHDOO\ UHOLJLRXV ,W¶V KDOI D MRNH 7KH ZRUN LV FRPSOHWHO\ PHPH \ VKLW ZKLFK LV IXFNLQJ DZHVRPH $QG WKH PXVLF¶V JRRG DQG LQYRNHV WKRXJKW 6R ZK\ FDQ¶W ZH GR WKDW LQ ¿QH DUW" 5LJKW , KRQHVWO\ WKLQN WKDW¶V WKH EHVW IRUP RI LW /LNH WKDW¶V ZK\ FRPHGLDQV JHW VXFK D SODW

IRUP ZLWK VRFLDO UDSSRUW <RX NQRZ LW¶V FX] WKH\¶UH DEOH WR FRQGHQVH WKLV LQIRUPDWLRQ /LNH WKRVH WRQLJKW VKRZV WKRVH JX\V ZH PXFK UDWKHU JHW RXU QHZV IURP WKHUH WKDQ )R[ ¿YH RU ZKDWHYHU RU &11 GXULQJ WKH GD\ <HDK /LNH RQ 7ZLWWHU IURP SHRSOH ZKR DUH MXVW WZHHWLQJ GXPE UDQGRP VKLW <HW D ORW RI IDFWXDO information is just as much communicated on there. I remember seeing that tweet from a guy WDONLQJ DERXW ³UREELQJ DQ\ 8NUDLQLDQ , VHH RQ WKH VWUHHW FDXVH WKDW¶V P\ PRQH\ ´ 7KDW¶V KRZ , KHDUG WKDW WKH 8 6 ZDV VHQGLQJ ELOOLRQ WR 8NUDLQH , JHW D ORW RI P\ QHZV WKDW ZD\ +DWH WR say it. <HDK 7ZLWWHU LV GH¿QLWHO\ WKH EHVW SODFH WR JHW \RXU QHZV (VSHFLDOO\ WKHUH¶V MXVW VR PDQ\ IXQQ\ DFFRXQWV WKDW , IROORZ DQG WKH\¶OO EUHDN QHZV WR PH DOO WKH WLPH DQG ,¶OO EH OLNH ZDLW ZKDW" 6XFK DQG VXFK KDG D EDE\ ZLWK ZKR" %XW LW¶G EH D MRNH WKDW ZRXOG EUHDN WKH QHZV WR PH DQG ,¶P OLNH G\LQJ ODXJKLQJ <HDK *HQ = LV JHWWLQJ DOO RI WKHLU QHZV IURP 7LN7RN QRZDGD\V 7KDW¶V VR FUD]\ …Which is funny. Fuck it, we consume our news where we do. It is what it is. We pick and choose.

Name of the game. :KDW ZDV OLNH WKH SURFHVV RI OHDUQLQJ WR WXIW DQG ZKHUH GR \RX IHHO OLNH \RX¶UH DW LQ WKDW SURFHVV QRZ" Yeah, so I learned when I was still working at the label

I was working with an artist there and we sort of just learned how to tuft together ZDWFKLQJ YLGHRV DQG VWXII , PDGH D UXJ WKDW UHDG ³.,// $// &236´ EDFN LQ ZKHQ , ZDV DQ 6-: :H ZHUH LQLWLDOO\ VXSSRVHG WR ZRUN WRJHWKHU EXW WKH\ EHOLHYHG WKH ZRUN ZDV WRR SROLWLFDO DQG GLGQ¶W ¿W LQWR WKHLU ZRUOG , ZDV OLNH ³RND\ IXFN RII ´ Eventually they stopped making rugs and I just started making my own work and people dug the work. I think that the reason why I’m here is because the work is overly political and pretty absurdist. I was able to develop the practice from being D SDVVLRQ SURMHFW ZKLFK LW DEVROXWHO\ VWLOO LV WR D ¿QH DUW PHGLXP ZLWK QR ERXQGDULHV 7KDW¶V KRZ , JRW LQWR WXIWLQJ , SHUVRQDOO\ WKLQN \RXU ZRUN VWDUWHG D ORW PRUH DVVHUWLYH DQG LQ \RXU IDFH $QG QRZ LW¶V OLNH PRUH QXDQFHG 7RWDOO\ <HDK 'R \RX WKLQN WKDW¶V D JRRG RU D EDG WKLQJ" 7KDW¶V D JUHDW WKLQJ <HDK , WKLQN \RX¶UH OHDUQLQJ WR OHW WKH DUW FRPPXQLFDWH GLIIHUHQWO\ 7KDQN \RX , UHDOO\ DSSUHFLDWH WKDW %DVHG RQ WKH VHFRQG SDUW RI WKDW TXHVWLRQ DIWHU , VKRZHG VROR LQ 3RUWODQG , WRRN D VWHS EDFN , ORRNHG DW WKH LQVWDOODWLRQ RI DOO of my work and I felt very positive about where I was at in my practice. Like right now, I feel very good and comfortable with tufting. I feel like this is what I want to GR , ZDQQD PDNH ¿JXUHV DQG , ZDQW WR PDNH DEVXUG FROODJHV $QG , NQRZ KRZ WR GR LW , IHHO FRPIRUWDEOH GRLQJ LW 7KHUH DUH QR PLVWDNHV WKDW ,¶P PDNLQJ LQ WHUPV RI WXIWLQJ 8V VLWWLQJ KHUH QRZ , IHHO JRRG DERXW P\ SUDFWLFH WR WKH SRLQW ZKHUH , IHHO like maybe I can try different things now. Like I could go try new mediums maybe DQG GLIIHUHQW WH[WLOHV WKDW ,¶YH DOZD\V ZDQWHG WR 7KDW¶V D VFDU\ WKLQJ WR DGPLW %XW \HDK , GH¿QLWHO\ ZDQQD VWUD\ RXWVLGH RI MXVW GRLQJ WH[WLOH DQG WXIWLQJ , ZDQQD WU\ different mediums %XW ZKDW GRHV WKDW ORRN OLNH" I don’t know. I’ve always wanted to learn how to chain stitch. I’ve always wanted to OHDUQ KRZ WR ZHDYH $QG ,¶YH DOZD\V ZDQWHG WR GR PRUH VFXOSWXUDO DUW <RX GRQ¶W FRQVLGHU WKLV VFXOSWXUH" , GR $EVROXWHO\ , WKLQN WKDW , ZDQW WR WU\ PRUH ,W¶V OLNH D SDLQWHU SDLQWLQJ IRU WKH UHVW RI WKHLU OLIH 6RPHWLPHV \RX JRWWD PL[ LW XS I wanna, maybe after a few more pieces, take a break and just try something new.

When artists try a new medium, they get re-inspired and re-motivated and their brain starts moving in gear again.

0\ IULHQG .DWMD LV D SDLQWHU DQG WKH\¶YH EHHQ SDLQWLQJ IRU OLNH VL[ \HDUV QRZ DQG WKH\¶UH DOZD\V VKRZLQJ DW IDLUV RU GRLQJ VRORV 7KH\ DGPLWWHG WKDW SDUWLFLSDWLQJ LQ D VLQJOH SUDFWLFH FDQ IHHO PXQGDQH 7KH\ VWDUWHG PHVVLQJ DURXQG ZLWK FOD\ DQG QRZ WKHUH LV D ZKROH UHHPHUJHQFH RI LGHDV , ZDQW WR IHHO WKDW 7KDW¶V QRW WR VD\ I don’t feel like I’m motivated. I think that I’m coasting at this discipline and I feel JRRG DQG ,¶P HQHUJL]HG ZLWK LGHDV 6R WKDW¶V NLQG RI ZKHUH ,¶P DW LQ P\ SUDFWLFH ULJKW QRZ , UHVSHFW WKDW /LNH DV D GLUHFWRU OLNH HYHQ IRU PH WKHUH¶V D SRLQW ZKHUH WKH SURFHVV JHWV ERULQJ <RX NQRZ ZKDW ,¶P VD\LQJ" (VSHFLDOO\ WKH VROLFLWLQJ

SURFHVV ZKHUH VRPHERG\¶V OLNH +H\ KHUH¶V D VRQJ :KDW LGHDV GR \RX KDYH" $QG WKHQ ,¶P OLNH RK RND\ QRWKLQJ WR ZRUN IURP $QG WKHQ , VHQG WKHP LGHDV DQG WKH\¶UH OLNH ZH ZHUH WKLQNLQJ PRUH OLNH WKLV ,¶P OLNH ZK\ GLGQ¶W \RX WHOO PH WKDW IURP WKH MXPS" <HDK $QG WKHQ DIWHU D ZKLOH \RX¶UH MXVW OLNH LW MXVW EHFRPHV OLNH WKLV $ % & VWHS WKLQJ DQG WKHQ \RX ORRN DW WKH HQG UHVXOW DQG \RX¶UH MXVW OLNH DOO ULJKW $P , JHWWLQJ EHWWHU" , WKLQN WKDW HYHU\ VLQJOH WLPH ,¶P PDNLQJ D QHZ SLHFH :KLFK LV DQQR\LQJ 3RLQWV WR LQFRPSOHWH art on canvas> I might trash that one on the end there. I don’t like it.

7KH -RH 5RJDQ SRGFDVW PRPHQW <laughs> It’s a pointless, dumb, and funny meme. But, I hate his face. I need to change his face. , KDWH KLV SDQWV , KDWH WKH ZD\ WKDW KH¶V SRVLWLRQHG 6R , WKLQN WKDW , ,V WKDW D 3RNHPRQ FDUG" 8P 0DJLF WKH *DWKHULQJ FDUGV DQG $SKH[ 7ZLQ SOXVKLH , WKLQN WKDW WKH FRQFHSW LV FRRO EXW , DOVR WKLQN WKDW LW ORRNV VR IXFNLQJ XJO\ 6R ,¶P MXVW JRQQD WUDVK LW± 2ND\ 7KDW¶V FUD]\ +RZ PXFK RXWWD \RXU ZRUN" +RZ PXFK GR \RX VFUDS" , GRQ¶W HYHQ ZDQW WR WHOO \RX EHFDXVH LW¶V D ORW 7KDQN JRRGQHVV WKH \DUQ LV FRPSRVWDEOH RU ZKDWever.

Outside of that, yeah. I’ve been told by a lot of artists that I need to hold on to my work so I could get re-inspired. But for me, when I look at something and I think it’s ugly, I think it’s so fucking ugly.

I want it out of my face. I wanna trash it. It’s disgusting.

7KDW¶V VR IXQQ\ IRU VRPHRQH WKDW LV LQ D ORQJ WHUP UHODWLRQVKLS <laughs> I know, you’re right but I love him! Ok now I’m thinking maybe I’ll hold onto something.

I’m not emotionally connected to that shit. If I was, I’d keep it in my pocket forever.

7KDW¶V LQWHUHVWLQJ %HLQJ HPRWLRQDOO\ FRQQHFWHG WR \RXU ZRUN *RRG SRLQW <HDK , IHHO , KDYH WR EH %XW DW ZKDW SRLQW DUH \RX" ,¶P QRW VR FRQQHFWHG ZKHUH ,¶P like, I don’t want to let go of this. I want this to go to the perfect home. Like if you have the money to buy my work or if it’s going to an awesome institution or if it’s being acquired by a certain whatHYHU , GRQ¶W FDUH , ZDQQD VKDUH P\ DUW ZLWK WKH ZRUOG $QG WKDW LV QRW OLNH ,¶P QRW JRLQJ WR EH SLFN\ about where it goes. Because sometimes I don’t know if it really makes a difference.

6RPHWLPHV \RX¶UH YHU\ DQDUFKLVW EXW WKDW ZDV OLNH WKH FXWHVW WKLQJ \RX¶YH VDLG :KDW" 7KDW , GRQ¶W FDUH" ³, ZDQQD VKDUH P\ ZRUN ZLWK WKH ZRUOG´ ODXJKV! , KDYHQ¶W KDG WKH EHVW H[SHULHQFH LQ WKH DUW LQGXVWU\ , WKLQN , VWHSSHG LQWR LW SUHWW\ QDLYH I have been taken advantage of, and told pretty conservative opinions on how to navigate the PDUNHW $W WKH HQG RI WKH GD\ ZKHQ WKH ZRUN LV VROG , GRQ¶W NQRZ LI , UHDOO\ JLYH D VKLW ZKHUH LW

JRHV DV ORQJ DV WKH ZRUN LV DSSUHFLDWHG E\ VRPHRQH ,W¶V H[SHFWHG IRU DQ DUWLVW WR EH JUDWHIXO ZKHQ WKH ZRUN JRHV WR VRPHRQH ZLWK JUHDW LQÀXHQFH DQG QDWXUDOO\ \HV WKDW¶V JUHDW± EXW ,¶G IHHO MXVW DV VWRNHG LI P\ ZRUN ZHQW WR D ZRUNLQJ FODVV SHUVRQ DYHUDJH -RH ZKDWHYHU 7KDW¶V KDOI RI DUW ZRUOG VKLW %XOOVKLW Yeah, I was talking to Yudo about it too. Managers and galleries really push for their artists to QHWZRUN VFKPRR]H DQG SXW WKHPVHOYHV RXW WKHUH LQ RUGHU IRU WKH ZRUN WR EH VROG :KHQ WKDW LV communicated to me, I think to myself, “Isn’t that your fucking job?” My job is to make art. I’m not a model, I am not a product of whatever you are running. I mean, okay, maybe I am, so then let me do the labor of creating the art. I don’t want to do anything outside of what the work is. %XW DV D IRUPHU $ 5 ZKDW W\SH RI ZRUN GLG \RX H[SHFW \RXU PXVLFLDQV WR SXW LQ" What I felt like was important was to put musicians in a room with other talented musicians to make good music.

7KDW¶V VXFK D SXEOLVKHU PLQGVHW ,W LVQ¶W LPSRUWDQW IRU DQ DUWLVW WR SHUIRUP RXWVLGH RI ZKDW WKH\ GR ZHOO 7KDW¶V SUREDEO\ ZK\ , JRW ¿UHG IURP WKH ODEHO EHFDXVH IRU PH EH\RQG WKH HQG SURGXFW WKH PRUDOH RI WKH ODEHO DQG WKH DUW FUHDWHG PDWWHUHG 7KH JRDO ZDV WKDW WKH DUWLVWV LQYROYHG LQ PDNLQJ PXVLF FUHDWHG VRPHWKLQJ WKDW WKH\ ZHUH KDSS\ ZLWK 7KHQ WKH ODEHO ZLOO VD\ VKLW OLNH ³WKLV GRHVQ¶W ¿W WKH WUDLWV RI ZKDW PDNHV D pop song”, it doesn’t follow an algorithm, it isn’t capable of going viral. It didn’t feel true to the art-

LVWV DQG WR WKH ODEHO , UHVLVWHG WKRVH H[SHFWDWLRQV DQG ZDV ¿UHG IRU WKDW %XW DOVR LW ZDV D PHVV there and there was no gig for me anymore either because I was probably young and dumb too.

7KH ODEHO ZDV VXSSRVHG WR UHOHDVH D FRPSLODWLRQ± , UHPHPEHU WKDW 7KHUH ZHUH DPD]LQJ LGHDV 7KHUH QHHGHG WR EH D FRQFHSW %XW DW WKH HQG RI WKH GD\ WKH ODEHO ZDQWHG WR MXVW SXW UDQGRP VRQJV RQ WKH FRPSLODWLRQ ZLWK UDQGRP DUWLVWV ZLWK ]HUR QDUUDWLYH ,W IHOW OLNH D FDVK JUDE ZLWK D PDUNHWLQJ DQG SUHVV UXQ ZLWK QR LGHD 7KH LGHD ZDV SXWWLQJ UDQGRP DVV VRQJV RQ D UHFRUG 7KHUH LV QR PHDQLQJ $Q\ZD\V WKH SRLQW LV , WKLQN LW¶V D PLQGVHW WKDW , KDYH DV DQ $ 5 WKDW LV UHÀHFWLYH RI± <RXU DUW 6R \RXU SODFH ZDV MXVW DOZD\V SUH PDUNHW LQ D VHQVH <RX NQRZ ZKDW ,¶P VD\LQJ" $W WKH ODEHO" 1R $UW SHULRG <RX PRUH VR DUH LQ WKH SUH \RX OLNH WKH SURFHVV RI WKH DUW PDNLQJ %XW WKHQ OLNH WKH SURFHVV RI EHFRPLQJ UHYHUHG +DV WKDW EHHQ GLI¿FXOW WR JUDVS" I guess so. You bring up a good point. When I make the work, I’m happy with it and I share it with the world. Yet, I feel like there are still more steps that need to be taken in order to, one, make money and two, become revered. But I don’t know what I can, or really want to do outside of VKRZLQJ SHRSOH WKH DUW <RX OLNH WKH DUW RU \RX GRQ¶W± DQG , GRQ¶W NQRZ PH DW P\ PRVW FKDUPLQJ KLODULRXV FRRO FRXOG FDWDSXOW PH LQWR EHLQJ LQIDPRXV ZLWK D QHW ZRUWK RI PLOOLRQV

&0 L

TIN LIZARDS

ROBERT LeBLANC

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ĶV PDJLF 0L[WXUH RI EXIIDOR GXQJ DQG SULP URVHV RI WKH 3DULVLDQ SHUIXPHV /RQJ ODFHG JRZQV DQG GHFRUDWHG KDWV %ULQJLQJ EHDXW\ DQG FUXHOW\ WR ZLOGHUQHVV &DUU\LQJ JROG PRQH\ JXQV DQG PDFKLQH JXQV G\QDPLWH IOHVK IUXLW DQG YHJHWDEOHV 0DUVKDOOV /DZ\HUV DQG -XGJHV DQG WKH 'RF &OLFKHV RI +ROO\ZRRG DOZD\V GUXQN DQG IXQQ\ 7KH QHZV RI DQRWKHU VWUHDN RI JROG $QRWKHU DGYDQFHPHQW LQ WKH KHDUW RI WKH &KH\HQQH 7UDQVSRUWLQJ SXUH &KULVWLDQV 7R DQ ,PSXUH ODQG RI ZLQG VDOW DQG VFUXE RDNV 7KLV LV P\ ODQG LQ WKH VOHHSHU FDU 7KLV LV P\ PXVLF P\ PLGQLJKW VSHFLDO EHKLQG WKH EDUV DW $QJROD 7KLV LV P\ GUHDP RI FOLPELQJ WKH 5RFNLHV 3DVVLQJ WKURXJK WKH 6LHUUDV LQ WKH ZLQWHU RI FDQQLEDOLVP DQG VXUYLYDO 7KLV LV P\ GUHDP RI EXLOGLQJ FLWLHV DQG GHVWUR\LQJ PHQ DQG DQLPDOV LQ WKH VWDWH RI QDWXUH 7KLV LV P\ JORU\ RI SRZHU WUDQVSRUWLQJ VROGLHUV DQG PDFKLQH JXQV &RDO WLQJHG ZLWK WKH EORRG FRXJKHG XS E\ WKH ,WDOLDQ PLQHUV DW 6DQG &UHHN 7KLV LV VRMRXUQ DQG SHUPDQHQW UHVLGHQFH LQ WKH LQYDGHG ODQG RI WKH QDWLYHV 7KLV LV P\ FDVLQR DQG LWV SURXG RZQHUV VPRNLQJ D SHDFH SLSH 7KLV LV P\ ER\LVK IDFH JURZLQJ KDLU WXUQLQJ JUD\ DQG VWUDJJO\ 7KLV LV P\ IDQF\ GHSR ZLWK WDOO FHLOLQJ $GRUQHG ZLWK WKH SDLQWLQJV RI 'LHJR 5LYHUD 7KH %HDX[ $UWV RI 5HHG 6WHP :DUUHQ DQG :HWPRUH 7KH KXUULHG SDVVHQJHUV RI GDLO\ EXV\ ERGLHV RI LQGXVWU\ DQG FRPPHUFH 7KH PDUEOH IORRUV RI IDLWK LQ KXPDQLW\ DQG SURJUHVV 7KH VKDSHV RI HQGRUVHPHQW 7KLV LV WKH GUHDP RI KRERV DQG DUWLVWV KRSSLQJ RQ WKH HPSW\ FDUWV $QG WUDYHOLQJ IRUHYHU RQ WKH ĸIUHHGRP KLJKZD\Ĺ RI :RRG\ *XWKULH 0RYLQJ WKURXJK WKH KHDUWODQG WKDW SLHUFHG RXU LPDJLQDWLRQ RI ZRQGHU FRXUDJH DQG LQVDQLW\ &DSLWDOLVP DW LWV EHVW DQG ZRUVW VKLQLQJ WKH FOLFN\ FODFNV RI WKH FDUWV ĸ*DSV LQ WKH UDLO WR DOORZ IRU WKHUPDO H[SDQVLRQĹ 2XU FRQTXHVW RI WKH ZHVW DQG EH\RQG $LG WR 6DQ )UDQFLVFR YLFWLPV RI HDUWKTXDNH DQG ILUH 2XU IRUWXQH RI MR\ DQG GLVDVWHU WHDULQJ WKURXJK WKH GDUN ZLOGHUQHVV :LWK WKH VXQ FRPLQJ XS RQ LWV VKRXOGHUV

$ /,=$5'6 '5($0 E\ $/, =$55,1

Untitled #38 Eureka, MT 2023

Untitled #37 Seattle, WA 2023

Untitled #51 Butte, MT 2023

Untitled #60 California 2023

Untitled #9 Yuma, AZ 2023

Untitled #56 Butte, MT 2023

&0 L

P &

E P

E N PIXEL LQWHUYLHZ E\ 5REHUW /H%ODQF DOO LPDJHV FXUWRVH\ RI 3(1 3,;(/

'- 6&5(: ĵ1 WKH 0RUQLQĶ %LJWLPH 5HFRUGV

5REHUW /H%ODQF +RZ GLG \RX ¿UVW JHW LQYROYHG LQ WKH ZRUOG RI JUDSKLF GHVLJQ DQG ZKDW LQVSLUHG \RX DQG \RXU EURWKHU $DURQ WR IRFXV RQ KLS KRS DOEXP FRYHUV" 6KDZQ %UDXFK I would have to say my mother was my inVSLUDWLRQ WR SXUVXH DUW 6KH ZDV DQ DUWLVW DQG WDXJKW PH the basics at a very young age. When I was 11 I started entering art competitions and made my way with the assistance and guidance of a private art tutor to understand the fundamentals of perspective, shading and composition. My EURWKHU $DURQ RQ WKH RWKHU KDQG ZDV PXFK PRUH DFDGHPLFDOO\ LQFOLQHG +H KDG D JRRG JUDVS RI WKH ODUJHU SLFWXUH and a knack for being a strategic visionary. Of course, little did we know that 18 years later we would be working together.

6,/. 7+( 6+2&.(5 &KDUJH ,W 'D *DPH 1R /LPLW 5HFRUGV

$DURQ ZDV SXUVXLQJ D EXVLQHVV DQG FRPSXWHU VFLHQFH GHJUHH IURP WKH 8QLYHUVLW\ RI :DVKLQJWRQ ZKLOH , KDG WUDQVIHUUHG IURP WKH 6FKRRO RI 7KH $UW LQVWLWXWH RI &KLFDJR WR 3DUVRQ 6FKRRO RI 'HVLJQ LQ /RV $QJHOHV 0\ DVSLUDWLRQV ZHUH WR EHFRPH D JUDSKLF GHVLJQHU VSHFLDOL]LQJ LQ HQWHUtainment. $DURQ ZDV DFWXDOO\ WKH EXVLQHVV PLQG DQG ¿QDQFLHU RI 3HQ 3L[HO *UDSKLFV $IWHU ZRUNLQJ IRU 5DS $ /RW 5HFRUGV IRU several years, we decided to venture out on our own and LQ $DURQ XVHG KLV RZQ VHHG PRQH\ WR JHW XV VWDUWHG , ZDV D FUHDWLYH ÀHGJOLQJ , NQHZ SKRWRJUDSK\ DQG KRZ WR GUDZ DQG ERWK $DURQ DQG , KDG DQ XQFDQQ\ DELOLW\ WR ¿nesse our surroundings. I believe much of this was attributHG WR JURZLQJ XS RYHUVHDV 6RUW RI DQ µDGDSW RU SHULVK¶ approach.

5DS $ /RW UHFRUGV LV UHDOO\ ZKHUH DOO RI WKLV VWDUWHG 0\ EURWKHU ZDV WKH *HQHUDO 0DQDJHU DQG KH ZRUNHG FORVHO\ ZLWK WKH &(2V -DPHV 3ULQFH 6PLWK DQG &OLII %ORGJHWW to form a groundbreaking entertainment company. I was KLUHG DV WKH $UW 'LUHFWRU IRU 5DS $ /RW DQG WKDW LV ZKHUH , KDG P\ ¿UVW H[SRVXUH WR KDUGFRUH UDS PXVLF «D IDU FU\ IURP DQ\WKLQJ , KDG HYHU KHDUG , GLG ¿QG KRZHYHU WKDW there was a message in all the songs, almost like poetry... gritty, raw prose. I was hooked!

7+5(( 0$),$ &KSW ĸ:RUOG 'RPLQDWLRQĹ 1R /LPLW 5HFRUGV

%,* 7<0(5 %LJ %DOOLQĶ 8QLYHUVDO 5HFRUGV

3HQ 3L[HO LV NQRZQ IRU LWV GLVWLQFWLYH VW\OH IHDWXULQJ ODYLVK DQG RIWHQ VXUUHDO LPDJHU\ +RZ GLG \RX GHYHORS WKLV VLJQDWXUH DHVWKHWLF DQG ZKDW ZHUH \RXU PDLQ LQ ÀXHQFHV"

+27 %2< *XHUULOOD :DUIDUH &DV 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV

I believe my fascination with comic books at an early age DQG WKH LQÀXHQFH RI -DSDQHVH WHOHYLVLRQ SURJUDPV IHDWXULQJ 8OWUDPDQ *RG]LOOD .DPHQ 5LGHU DQG RWKHUV ZKLFK XVHG WKH 7RNXVDWVX VW\OH RI DUW $V D \RXQJ ER\ , ZRXOG live out these programs and build detailed sets in my bedroom. I immersed myself in the perspective of cityscapes and tried to view the scenes from all angles. I think this KHOSHG PH GHYHORS DQ RXW RI WKH ER[ DSSURDFK WR SKRWRJUDSK\ DQG DUW 6XUUHDOLVW DUWLVWV OLNH 6DOYDGRU 'DOL DQG 0D[ Ernst, which I studied in detail while at university, also had D VLJQL¿FDQW LQÀXHQFH RQ P\ DUW VW\OH 'XULQJ P\ WLPH DW 5DS $ /RW 5HFRUGV 3KRWRVKRS KDG MXVW been released. We had a very rudimentary understanding of what the program could do and how far we could push it. It did, however, widen our imaginations. Now the impossible became slightly closer to possible in terms of photo-composition.

; 5$7(' ; 0DUNV WKH 6SRW 7RWDO 5HVSHFW 5HFRUGV

-89(1,/( 'HJUHH] 8QLYHUVDO &DVK 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV

:LWK RYHU DOEXP FRYHUV XQGHU \RXU EHOW KRZ GLG \RX PDQDJH WR PDLQWDLQ D FRQVLVWHQW OHYHO RI FUH DWLYLW\ DQG LQQRYDWLRQ WKURXJKRXW WKH \HDUV" 3HRSOH SHRSOH DQG PRUH SHRSOH 7R DVVXPH WKDW , DORQH created all these covers or concepts is an injustice to the inFUHGLEOH FUHDWLYH VWDII ZH KDG DW 3HQ 3L[HO *UDSKLFV :H were very selective on who we hired and the process was painstaking for the candidates. We used several sources IRU FUHDWLYH WDOHQW :H XVHG WKH $UW ,QVWLWXWH RI +RXVWRQ DV RXU SULPDU\ UHVRXUFH IRU DUWLVWLF WDOHQW 2QO\ * 3 $ VWXdents, along with their professor’s recommendation letter, and an ability to hand sketch very quickly would be considHUHG 0RVW GHVLJQHUV DW WKH 3HQ 3L[HO KDG DQLPH RU FRPLF ERRN OHYHO VNHWFKLQJ DELOLWLHV 7KLV ZDV QHHGHG EHFDXVH FRQFHSWXDOL]LQJ ZRXOG KDSSHQ LQ IURQW RI WKH FOLHQW GXULQJ our meetings and it was an essential selling tool. We wantHG WR H[FLWH RXU FXVWRPHUV ZLWK DQ LPDJH WKDW ZHQW IURP just an idea to something they could see in pen and ink.

In addition, at the rate we were producing covers, hand

+27 %2< +RW %R\ 6XPPHU 80(

sketches were a necessity to be able to meet our customers’ demands quickly and accurately. &DQ \RX VKDUH DQ\ PHPRUDEOH VWRULHV RU FKDOOHQJHV \RX IDFHG ZKLOH ZRUNLQJ RQ VRPH RI WKH PRVW LFRQLF DOEXP FRYHUV LQ KLS KRS KLVWRU\" 7KH DUWLVWV DQG OHDGHUVKLS RI &DVK 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV ZHUH E\ IDU WKH WHDP WKDW , KDG VRPH RI P\ PRVW PHPRUDEOH H[SHULHQFHV ZLWK %ULDQ :LOOLDPV DQG 5RQDOG :LOOLDPV ZHUH DOZD\V H[WUHPHly professional and had a good grasp on what they wanted out of a high end marketing piece.

7KH\ DOVR NQHZ WKH LPSRUWDQFH LW ZRXOG SOD\ LQ FDSWXULQJ DWWHQWLRQ QRW RQO\ DW WKH UHWDLO OHYHO EXW LQ RWKHU PHGLD IRUPV DV ZHOO -XYHQLOH /LO :D\QH 7XUN DQG RI FRXUVH 0DQQLH )UHVK ZHUH DOZD\V IXQ WR ZRUN ZLWK :KHQ /LO :D\QH ¿UVW FDPH WR 3HQ 3L[HO KH ZDV WKH \RXQJHVW DUWLVW

LQ PDLQVWUHDP *DQJVWD UDS DW WKDW WLPH EXW KH KDG D ORRN DERXW KLP DQG D VWDJH SUHVHQFH WKDW , NQHZ ZDV SXUH JROG 7KLV JX\ ZDV GHDG VHULRXV DERXW KLV PXVLF DV ZHOO +H ZDV ZULWLQJ QRQ VWRS +H ZDV DQG VWLOO LV D WKLQNHU DQG D SRHW -XHY ZDV PRUH ODLG EDFN DQG FRQ¿GHQW EXW DOO &DVK 0RQH\ $UWLVWV ZHUH JRRG JX\V 7KH PRVW GLI¿FXOW FOLHQWV ZHUH XVXDOO\ WKH UHFRUG FRPSDQLHV WKDW KDG DOO WKHLU LQYHVWPHQW LQ RQH DUWLVW RU WKRVH WKDW FDPH WR XV ZLWK D YHU\ VSHFL¿F VHW RI GLUHFWLRQV IRU WKHLU DUWZRUN WKDW GLG QRW UHÀHFW WKH 3HQ 3L[HO VW\OH 3UREDEO\ WKH PRVW ³VHOHFWLYH´ FOLHQW WKDW FRPHV WR PLQG ZDV 6KRUW 6WRS 5HFRUGV $W WKDW WLPH WKH OHYHO RI GHWDLO WKH\ UHTXLUHG IRU WKHLU FRYHUV ZDV EH\RQG DQ\WKLQJ , KDG H[SHULHQFHG QRU GLG , WKLQN LW ZRXOG KDYH D VLJQL¿FDQW LPSDFW RQ WKHLU DELOLW\ WR PDUNHW WKHLU DUWLVWV ,Q KLQGVLJKW KRZHYHU WKHVH FRYHUV ZHUH H[WUHPHO\ HIIHFWLYH DQG OLNH PDQ\ 3HQ 3L[HO FOLHQWV 6KRUW 6WRS HQGHG XS GRLQJ YHU\ ZHOO LQ WKH HQWHUWDLQPHQW JDPH '- 6&5(:

/(,.(/,

%LJW\PH 5HFRUG] 9RO OO $OO 6FUHZHG 8S %LJWLPH 5HFRUGV

$FU\OLF 5&$ 5HFRUGV

0RVW RI RXU FOLHQWV EHFDPH RXU IULHQGV 7KHUH ZDV VXFK D symbiotic relationship between the artist and the promotion companies that we had to work together to get the biggest bang for our buck…that’s one thing we did very well over the years. &DQ \RX VKDUH DQ\ LQVLJKWV LQWR \RXU FUHDWLYH SURFHVV IURP LQLWLDO FRQFHSW GHYHORSPHQW WR ¿QDO H[HFXWLRQ ZKHQ ZRUNLQJ RQ DQ DOEXP FRYHU" 0RVW ZRUN ZDV RUGHUHG DW 3HQ 3L[HO ZKHQ WKH UDSSHU DUW%,5'0$1

% *

%LUGPDQ &DVK 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV

&KRSSHU &LW\ LQ WKH *KHWWR &DVK 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV

LVW FDPH WR RXU VWXGLR LQ +RXVWRQ 7KH\ XVXDOO\ ZRXOG KDYH an interview with one of our designers and a sales person.

We would listen to the music and spend a great deal of time learning about why they wrote the music and lyrics.

6RPH RI WKHVH LQWHUYLHZV ZRXOG ODVW IRU KRXUV 'XULQJ WKDW WLPH ZH ZRXOG VWDUW VNHWFKLQJ RXW LGHDV 7KLV ZDV GRQH YHU\ TXLFNO\ DQG ZLWK D ORW RI IHHGEDFN IURP WKH UDSSHU artist. Once the rough sketch was approved, we would take it back to the studio and have a much more detailed LQN VNHWFK PDGH 7KLV ZDV WR HQVXUH ZH ZHUH DFFXUDWHO\ FRQYH\LQJ ZKDW WKH UDSSHU DUWLVW ZDQWHG 2QFH RXU FOLHQWV ZHUH ³VROG´ RQ WKH FRQFHSW VNHWFK RXU 6DOHV WHDP ZRXOG VWDUW WDONLQJ ZLWK WKHP DERXW ORJRV &'V SRVWHUV 7 VKLUWV and other merchandise.

7R HQVXUH HDFK FOLHQW¶V MRE ZDV RUJDQL]HG DQG SULRULWL]HG FRUUHFWO\ RXU 6DOHV WHDP ZRXOG VHW XS D MRE EDJ DQG HQWHU WKH FOLHQW RUGHU LQWR WKH FRPSXWHU V\VWHP 7KLV ZDV PDYerick at the time. We designed a digital job bag system, inFOXVLYH RI DOO FOLHQW FRQWDFW ELOOLQJ DQG ZRUN SURJUHVV 7KLV allowed us to immediately retrieve all information and give UHDO WLPH XSGDWHV RU ¿QG ZKDW ZDV KROGLQJ D MRE¶V SURJUHVV $DURQ FUHDWHG WKLV V\VWHP DQG WR RXU NQRZOHGJH ZH ZHUH the only agency at that time that had this type of digital

project management. I can tell you it was a major factor in us being able to service that many accounts so effectively.

1H[W WKH SKRWR VKRRW ZRXOG RFFXU XVXDOO\ LQ RXU VWXGLR EXW sometimes we would give direction for other photographers WR IROORZ 2QFH DOO SKRWRV ZHUH ¿QLVKHG DQG WKH\ ZHUH RI high quality and matched the sketch we would begin work! +RZ GLG \RX EXLOG UHODWLRQVKLSV ZLWK WKH DUWLVWV \RX ZRUNHG ZLWK DQG KRZ GLG WKHLU LQSXW VKDSH WKH ¿QDO GHVLJQV RI WKHLU DOEXP FRYHUV" 'HYHORSLQJ UHODWLRQVKLSV WKDW DUH JRLQJ WR ODVW EHJLQV ZLWK WUXVW 7KLV WUXVW LV JDLQHG DQG ZRUNHG IRU VRUW RI D µUHDVVXUDQFH IRXQGDWLRQ¶ IRU ELJJHU WKLQJV WR FRPH 2Q RXU ¿UVW engagement with a new client, it would begin with a warm DQG UHVSHFWIXO JUHHWLQJ DQG D IXOO WRXU RI WKH IDFLOLW\ 3HQ 3L[HO +4V ZDV D VLJKW WR VHH VRUW RI D :KR¶V :KR LQ WKH UDS DQG KLS KRS ZRUOG ZLWK PDQ\ *ROG DQG 3ODWLQXP 5,$$ $ZDUGV 7KLV ZDV WKH WUXVW EXLOGHU 2XU VDOHV VWDII ZDV RQ WRS RI WKHLU JDPH 7KH\ OLVWHQHG WR WKH FOLHQWV WRRN QRWHV DQG DVNHG TXHVWLRQV 7KLV LV UHspect. We would talk about how far they wanted to go in WKH LQGXVWU\ MXVW GLVWULEXWH ORFDOO\ RU QDWLRQZLGH 7KHQ ZH talked about budget and business plans, distribution, radio play, mastering and marketing, it was all encompassed in WKH ¿UVW PHHWLQJ 2QFH ZH KDG D IRXQGDWLRQ RI WUXVW DQG respect, then the creative process would take place.

0DQ\ DUWLVWV ZRXOG FRPH WR 3HQ 3L[HO ZLWK LGHDV VRPH very solid and creative ones, others came with little or nothing. It was always a great time talking with these guys and JHWWLQJ WR NQRZ WKHP ¿UVW :H ZRXOG LQYHVW WLPH LQWR WKHP and in many cases guide them to a more marketable design solution. We wanted them to succeed! /RRNLQJ EDFN DW \RXU H[WHQVLYH ERG\ RI ZRUN ZKLFK DOEXP FRYHUV DUH \RX PRVW SURXG RI DQG ZK\" Big Bear - Doin Thangs , MXVW DP DPD]HG DW KRZ PXFK FRYHUDJH WKLV FRYHU KDV KDG $OULJKW VR LW¶V RQH RI WKH PRUH EL]DUUH FRYHUV ZH FDPH XS ZLWK EXW ZKHQ \RX PHHW WKLV JX\ LW ¿WV :H KDG WKH

hbVgi[VXZ media management

media management

©

hbVgi[VXZ

94 1 76 1 1311

919 82nd Street NW, Bradenton, Florida 34209

Photo Break Out 2-08-21

II Tight Music Album Art

(Blinged out 3-D)

*ULP 5HDSHUV KDQG KROGLQJ WKH EDODQFH VFDOH

*ORZLQJ GRRUZD\V 7KH &KRLFHV RI OLIH

'DUN ZDWHU RQ ÀDPHV 5HÀHFWLRQ RI OLIH SRRO

WKHPH RI ³%HDU´ DQG MXVW SXVKHG LW WR ³%LJ 3,03 %OLQJ %OLQJ Bear”! It was rare that a hip-hop artist would step out of the µQRUP´ IRU FRYHU GHVLJQV ZKLFK W\SLFDOO\ LQFOXGHG ³+2¶V ³ ´&KHGGD ³ %HQWOH\V DQG IHHO FRQ¿GHQW LQ KLV RZQ KXmor. Big Bear’s cover is so effective because it does just that - - it’s funny, engaging and satirical (as well as very ZHOO H[HFXWHG LI , GRQ¶W VD\ VR P\VHOI +RZ GR \RX IHHO DERXW WKH LPSDFW 3HQ 3L[HO KDV KDG RQ WKH YLVXDO LGHQWLW\ RI KLS KRS FXOWXUH" $W WKH WLPH ZH ZHUH FUHDWLQJ WKHVH FRYHUV ZH ZHUH MXVW following the wishes of our client’s and adding some creDWLYH ÀDLU WR VHW WKHP DSDUW :H KDG QR LGHD WKH OHJDF\ RU following it would generate nor that the covers would have any longevity beyond the albums they were produced for.

Many of the covers mimicked an image of what success in the music industry meant for our clients and quite a numEHU ZHUH DEOH WR DFKLHYH WKDW OHYHO RI VXFFHVV &XUUHQW +LS +RS WUHQGV VKDUH PDQ\ RI WKH VDPH LGHQWLI\LQJ IHDWXUHV along with their symbolism, representing wealth, fame and VH[XDO SURZHVV $ WUXH UHÀHFWLRQ RI WKH DUWLVWV ZKR GDUHG WR GUHDP ELJ DQG IXO¿OOHG WKRVH DVSLUDWLRQV ZLWK WKHLU WDOHQW and hard work. +RZ GLG \RX DQG \RXU WHDP DW 3HQ 3L[HO VWD\ DKHDG RI GHVLJQ WUHQGV DQG WHFKQRORJ\ DGYDQFHPHQWV GXULQJ WKH V DQG HDUO\ V" , UHDG VRPHZKHUH \RX JX\V ZHUH XVLQJ 3KRWRVKRS LQ LW¶V EHWD VWDJH ,W ZDV DQ LQWHUHVWLQJ WLPH WR EH D GHVLJQ ¿UP DV WHFKQRORgy, software and hardware were playing an ever changing JDPH RI KRS VFRWFK 7KH OHDUQLQJ FXUYHV ZHUH VWHHS DQG prices to keep up to date were even more monumental. $DURQ LQVWLOOHG D SKLORVRSK\ RI FRQWLQXRXV LPSURYHPHQW and concise documentation of systems that worked (and some that needed work). By keeping to these principles and ensuring our staff was cross trained, no one was irreplaceable. New staff members were highly trained before engaging with clients or design work. We were very strategic. :RUNLQJ ZLWK $GREH HDUO\ RQ NHSW XV GHYHORSLQJ WKH SURcess by which most of our covers were created. Because of our meticulous records for trial and error, we were able

WR JLYH $GREH IHHGEDFN RQ WKH ¿UVW YHUVLRQ RI 3KRWRVKRS (1.0) in a real world work environment. +RZ GLG \RX KDQGOH WKH KLJK GHPDQG IRU \RXU VHUYLFHV GXULQJ WKH SHDN RI 3HQ 3L[HOV¶ SRSXODULW\ DQG ZKDW VWUDWHJLHV GLG \RX XVH WR PDQDJH \RXU ZRUNORDG DQG PDLQWDLQ TXDOLW\" 7UDLQLQJ SURGXFWLRQ V\VWHPV FRQVWDQW XSGDWHV RI VRIWZDUH and hardware, multiple back-ups, disaster planning, full staff meetings every morning, monthly production bonuses for our team, an open door policy, bilateral feedback from WKH VWDII FOHDU FRPPXQLFDWLRQV ZLWK VWDII FOLHQWV DQG H[ternal resources, multiple backup vendors, in-house mastering, photography, printing, packaging and triple checks IRU TXDOLW\ RI DUW DQG SULQWLQJ DQG PRVW RI DOO VDWLV¿HG FOLents. ,Q \RXU RSLQLRQ ZKDW DUH WKH NH\ HOHPHQWV WKDW PDNH DQ DOEXP FRYHU WUXO\ LFRQLF DQG PHPRUDEOH" In it’s purest sense, an album cover is an illustrative enticement that creates desire within the viewer to purchase the record. Loosely translated: illicit enough to get a viewer’s attention, peak their curiosity, and to initiate a purchase.

7KH ERWWRPOLQH«WR VHOO UHFRUGV With that said, the magic occurs concurrently with the conFHSW DQG H[HFXWLRQ RI WKH DUW $Q LFRQLF FRYHU QHHGV WR have something no one has seen before - - something that VWRSV WKH YLHZHU LQ WKHLU WUDFNV $ SLHFH RI DUW WKDW HQJDJHV YLHZHUV RQH VWHS DW D WLPH QRW DOO DW RQFH $ SLHFH WKDW WDNHV WLPH IRU WKHP WR GLJHVW 7KH ORQJHU VRPHRQH JD]HV at the cover with wonder, the more likely they will be to buy LW $Q LFRQLF FRYHU WHOOV D VWRU\ XVLQJ D GRPLQDQW FRORU SDOette, has perspective and is able to spiral the viewer’s eye PRYHPHQWV $ YHU\ GLI¿FXOW WHFKQLTXH WR PDVWHU +RZ GR \RX IHHO DERXW WKH UHVXUJHQFH RI YLQ\O UHFRUGV DQG WKH UHQHZHG LQWHUHVW LQ DOEXP FRYHU DUW WRGD\" 'R \RX WKLQN WKLV WUHQG ZLOO KDYH D ODVWLQJ LPSDFW RQ WKH LQGXVWU\ DIWHU WKH PDMRULW\ RI WKH LQGXVWU\ LV QRZ GLJL WDO" 9LQ\O UHVXUJHQFH LV D ELW RI D P\VWHU\ 3HUKDSV WKH GD\V RI

going to the record store and standing for hours letting your ¿QJHUV JOLGH WKURXJK WKH UDFNV KDV VRPH SULPDO DSSHDO like hunting.

I also believe that the depth of sound is so much fuller with analog recording, something this new generation has not EHHQ H[SRVHG WR LQ WKH GLJLWDO DJH 7KH IDQV WKDW DUH EHKLQG the resurgence of old school vinyl are for the most part a bit older and a bit more sophisticated. Many are audiophiles seeking the essence of what listening to an analog master was really like, not a digitally compressed clipped version MDPPHG LQWR DQ 03 IRUPDW :LWK WKDW VDLG , SHUVRQDOO\ have not noticed the mainstream record companies embrace this trend. Remember it’s about money. Fast money!

7KH IDVWHU \RX FDQ EULQJ D VRQJ RQOLQH IRU WKH OHDVW DPRXQW RI FDSLWDO WKH IDVWHU \RX ZLOO VHH UHWXUQV 8QIRUWXQDWHO\ WKLV is a pervasive sentiment throughout the music industry - from the composers and performers to the conglomerate CFOs. We shall see if it lasts or perhaps with technology ZH ZLOO ¿QG D KDSS\ PLGGOH JURXQG 7KH JRRG QHZV RI FRXUVH LV QRZ IRONV DUH DEOH WR KDYH WKH IXOO DOEXP FRYHU H[SHULHQFH LQ DOO LWV JORU\«DV LW ZDV 6$9$*( 0(752 %220,1Ķ

(,*+7%$// 0-*

6DYDJH 0RGH OO 6ODXJKWHU *DQJ

&RPLQĶ 2XW +DUG 6XDYH 5HFRUGV

originally designed…in the 12” format. :KDW UROH GR \RX WKLQN DOEXP FRYHU DUW SOD\V LQ VKDS LQJ DQ DUWLVW¶V EUDQG DQG RYHUDOO LPDJH DQG KRZ KDV WKLV HYROYHG RYHU WKH \HDUV" I believe a distinctive album cover along with strong marketing play a critical role in how that artist is perceived GRZQ WKH URDG +LVWRULFDOO\ ZH¶YH VHHQ VXFFHVVIXO DUWLVWV and groups resell their older releases or even incorporate WKHP LQWR QHZ IRUPDWV 7KHVH EHFRPH OHJDF\ SLHFHV WKDW

-89(1,/(

/,/ :$<1(

3URMHFW (QJOLVK &DVK 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV

/LJKWV 2XW &DVK 0RQH\ 5HFRUGV

VHW WKH VWDQGDUG DQG H[SHFWDWLRQ IRU WKH EX\LQJ audience, because they know the quality will be there, now and tomorrow. &DQ \RX VKDUH DQ\ LQVWDQFHV ZKHUH DQ DO EXP FRYHU \RX GHVLJQHG KDG D VLJQL¿FDQW LPSDFW RQ WKH VXFFHVV RU UHFHSWLRQ RI WKH PXVLF LWVHOI" , UHPHPEHU ZRUNLQJ ZLWK 'UHDPZRUNV +%2 RQ the Las Vegas opening for Cher’s Believe conFHUW 3HQ 3L[HO ZDV RQH RI ¿YH GHVLJQ FRPpanies slated to offer concepts for the key art. ,Q SUHSDUDWLRQ IRU RXU FRQFHSW SURFHVV WKH 3HQ 3L[HO WHDP VDW GRZQ DQG JDWKHUHG DV PXFK information about Cher and her music as possible, as we would typically do for an album covHU +RZHYHU ZH TXLFNO\ UHDOL]HG WKDW WKLV ZDV not going to help us create a vision for a large RSHQLQJ DW WKH 0*0 *UDQG +RWHO DQG &DVLQR RU RQ WKH +%2 1HWZRUN :H GHFLGHG LW ZDV LPportant for us to get in contact with the stage VHW GHVLJQHUV UHVSRQVLEOH IRU WKH VKRZ $IWHU we received the stage set design renderings, they were then replicated in the computer as separate objects, to include all of the elements that would be present during the performance DQG WKH FRORU SDOHWWH« LQGLYLGXDO REMHFWV LQ WRWDO 7KH 3HQ 3L[HO WHDP WKHQ FUHDWHG the key art using these elements and pre-shot images of Cher. It was this unconventional approach and 6 weeks of endless work that UHVXOWHG LQ 3HQ 3L[HO EHLQJ VHOHFWHG WR UHSresent one the greatest recording artists of all WLPH 7KH DOEXP ZHQW RQ WR VHOO PLOOLRQ FRSLHV ZRUOGZLGH 7KLV ZDV E\ IDU 3HQ 3L[HO¶V crowning achievement in terms of record sales. &DQ \RX GLVFXVV DQ\ SURMHFWV ZKHUH \RX KDG WR VWHS RXW RI \RXU FRPIRUW ]RQH RU H[ SHULPHQW ZLWK QHZ WHFKQLTXHV WR DFKLHYH WKH GHVLUHG RXWFRPH" :RUNLQJ RQ 0DVWHU 3¶V Last Don

7KH DOEXP GHEXWHG DW LQ RQ WKH %LOOERDUG VHOOLQJ FRSLHV LQ WKH ¿UVW ZHHN 7KH DOEXP ZDV FHUWL¿HG [ 3ODWLQXP E\ WKH 5,$$ ZLWK PRUH WKDQ PLOOLRQ FRSLHV VROG ,W ZDV PDUNHWHG LQLWLDOO\ DV 0DVWHU 3¶V ODVW VWXGLR DOEXP ,W ZDV WKH ¿UVW DQG RQO\ WLPH 3HQ 3L[HO XVHG D OHQWLFXODU HIIHFW RQ D PXVLF DOEXP FRYHU LPDJH 7KLV HIIHFW PDGH KLV KDQG DSSHDU WR PRYH DV WKH YLHZHU URWDWHG WKH &' FRYHU EDFN DQG IRUWK 7KLV ZDV DOVR WKH ¿UVW FRYHU 3HQ 3L[HO XVHG ZLWK GLDPRQG HQFUXVWHG WH[W WR ³EOLQJ´ WKH OHWWHUV 7KLV ZRXOG EHFRPH 3HQ 3L[HOV VLJQDWXUH ORRN IRU IXWXUH DUWZRUN +RZ GLG \RX EDODQFH WKH QHHG WR VWD\ WUXH WR DQ DUWLVW¶V YLVLRQ ZKLOH DOVR LQFRUSRUDWLQJ \RXU RZQ FUHDWLYH LGHDV DQG VLJQDWXUH VW\OH LQWR WKH DOEXP FRYHU GHVLJQ" I would often look upon the artist as a customHU LQ D ¿QH UHVWDXUDQW 7KH\ FDPH WR XV IRU D YHU\ SDUWLFXODU ÀDYRU RQH WKDW WKH\ FRXOG QRW ¿QG HOVHZKHUH RQH WKDW ZDV PHPRUDEOH DQG VSHFLDO DQG ZRUWK WKH FRVW 7KLV LV ZKDW 3HQ 3L[HO DUW ZDV WR WKH FRQVXPHU 7KH DUWLVW ZDV highly important in the design and concept process, and our team were the bespoke chefs that catered to them. We would encourage the client to push the boundaries, go beyond the LQLWLDO WKRXJKW DQG H[SDQG LQWR WKH VXUUHDO :H opened the doors of their mind like a psychedelic drug! :KDW DUH VRPH RI WKH PRVW VLJQL¿FDQW FKDQJHV \RX¶YH REVHUYHG LQ WKH PXVLF LQ GXVWU\ VLQFH \RX VWDUWHG 3HQ 3L[HO DQG KRZ GLG WKHVH FKDQJHV DIIHFW 3HQ 3L[HO" Merchandising music related items has to be one of the largest changes to the business HTXDWLRQ SURYLQJ WR EH D ODUJH SUR¿W FHQWHU IRU PDQ\ 7KH RXWOD\ LV UHODWLYHO\ ORZ DQG WKH UHturns are high, but unfortunately the clothing has a perishable life as it moves from top tier

VWRUHV WR ORZ UDFN VXE VWRUHV DQG ¿QDOO\ WR wholesale buy-outs. Only a few iconic pieces will make it to the collectors market. In addition, with today’s technology you have a new market of ‘print on demand’ which eliminates the middleman and inventory costs.

Imagery used on album covers has historically been a wonderful medium to transfer fashLRQ 7KH FRQGXFWLYH SURSHUWLHV DUH VLJQL¿FDQW as the consumers are often the young and impressionable. I would say that in today’s market this is even more evident, as the ability for these listeners to purchase spontaneously has sparked a wave of branded products competing for space in music videos and on album FRYHUV DOLNH 7KLV LV VLPLODU WR 1$6&$5 EUDQGLQJ SODFHPHQW GLUHFWLYHV 7KH PXVLF PDQDJHPHQW FRPSDQLHV KDYH UH¿QHG WKLV DQG WKH\ NQRZ ZHOO ZKDW WKH\ GR 3HQ 3L[HO MXPSHG on this bandwagon early as it offered a huge SUR¿W FHQWHU E\ XWLOL]LQJ WKH DUWZRUN IRU PRUH than just the album point of sale. It also offered D JUHDW GHDO RI H[SRVXUH WR WKH DUWLVW :H RIfered it all from t-shirts, caps, and bandannas, to posters and cups. +RZ GR \RX KDQGOH FUHDWLYH GLVDJUHHPHQWV RU GLIIHULQJ RSLQLRQV ZLWK DUWLVWV RU FOLHQWV GXULQJ WKH GHVLJQ SURFHVV" 7KH WULFN ZLWK QHJRWLDWLRQ LV WUXVW DQG YDOXH VR both parties win. We did our best to make sure the client was very clear on the concept, the pictures being used and the font treatment.

7KDW LV ZK\ ZH VNHWFKHG HYHU\WKLQJ LQ JUHDW GHWDLO DQG LQFOXGHG FDOO RXWV IRU FODUL¿FDWLRQ We would not move forward without signatures of approval. ,Q WKH HDUO\ GD\V RI 3HQ 3L[HO ZRUNLQJ LQ 3KRWRVKRS DQG WKHUH ZHUH QR µÀRDWLQJ¶ layers so when you placed a picture in a composition, it was there...no moving it. Our solu-

tion was to save multiple variations of the cover along the way, in addition to all of the pathed NQRFNHG RXW REMHFWV LQ WKH FRYHU 7KLV WRRN a great deal of time and used a large amount RI KDUG GULYH VWRUDJH EXW LW DOORZHG WKH 3HQ 3L[HO WHDP WR PDNH FOLHQW GLUHFWHG PRGL¿FDtions to the cover without starting from scratch.

If the client was not happy, we would do everything possible to come up with a solution.

8QIRUWXQDWHO\ WKHUH ZHUH WLPHV ZKHQ ZH FRXOG not meet their needs so we would end the projHFW DQG UHWDLQ D NLOO IHH 7KLV XVXDOO\ HQGHG WKH 3HQ 3L[HO UHODWLRQVKLS ZLWK WKLV FOLHQW ZKLFK unfortunately would prove to be a stumbling block when it came time for distribution in the south.

RI WKH WLPH ZH KDG VXFFHVVIXO RXWFRPHV :KDW DUH VRPH RI WKH PRVW YDOXDEOH OHVVRQV \RX¶YH OHDUQHG WKURXJKRXW \RXU FDUHHU LQ WKH PXVLF DQG JUDSKLF GHVLJQ LQGXVWULHV" 8QGHUVWDQG EXVLQHVV \RXU PDUNHW DQG \RXU YDOXH EHIRUH SURFHHGLQJ $ EXVLQHVV SODQ LV HVVHQWLDO HYHQ D EDVLF ³QR % 6 DVVHVVPHQW´ of what you are doing and who you are selling WR .HHS FDVK ÀRZ IUHH IRU HPHUJHQFLHV 5HLQvest in yourself through classes, seminars and tutorials. Only buy what you need, not what you ZDQW 3D\ \RXUVHOI ¿UVW EXW GRQ¶W EH VWXSLG 0\ EURWKHU DQG , GLG QRW WDNH RQH SHQQ\ IURP 3HQ 3L[HO DV VDODU\ XQWLO ZH KDG WKH FRPSDQ\ IRU 4 years. We invested in our employees and WKH FRPSDQ\ ¿UVW DQG DV D UHVXOW ZH KDG WKH DELOLW\ WR H[SDQG DQG JURZ DW DQ XQSUHFHGHQWed rate as the demands grew. +RZ GR \RX VHH WKH UROH RI DOEXP FRYHU DUW HYROYLQJ LQ WKH IXWXUH SDUWLFXODUO\ DV PX VLF FRQVXPSWLRQ FRQWLQXHV WR VKLIW WRZDUGV VWUHDPLQJ SODWIRUPV" 7KHUH DUH WZR GLIIHUHQW VWUHDPV RI WKRXJKW WKDW

I entertain for the future of music marketing in the visual realm: 1. The covers are going to be smaller in size physicalO\ 7KH ¿QLVK TXDOLW\ DQG FRQFHSWV ZLOO EH PXWHG 7KH producers are not going to invest the time and money LQWR FRYHU DUWZRUN WKDW LV GHVLJQHG LQWHQWLRQDOO\ WR VWRS D µVKRSSHU¶ DQG JHW WKHP WR HQJDJH LQ WKH PXVLF /LNH PDQ\ WKLQJV LQ WRGD\¶V ZRUOG FRYHUV ZLOO EH PRUH RI D ORZ UHV SODFHKROGHU WR JHW WKH MRE GRQH RQ VWUHDPLQJ SODWIRUPV 7KH FRYHU GHVLJQ ZLOO EH PXOWL GLPHQVLRQDO DQG DOORZ WKH YLHZHU LQ WKH µ0HWDYHUVH¶ WR SDUWDNH LQ WKH GHVLJQ H[SORULQJ LW LQ JUHDW GHWDLO 7KLV ZLOO EH DQ HIIHFWLYH DQG HQWHUWDLQLQJ ZD\ WR PD[LPL]H WKH DUW DQG HQGHDU WKH FXVWRPHU WR WKH PXVLF DQG WKH DOEXP GHVLJQHU DOLNH ,I \RX FRXOG JR EDFN LQ WLPH DQG JLYH DGYLFH WR \RXU \RXQJHU VHOI ZKHQ \RX ¿UVW VWDUWHG 3HQ 3L[HO ZKDW ZRXOG \RX VD\" I would ensure that I understood more about basic business operations. My brother taught me that I needed to H[SDQG DQG WUDLQ RXU GHVLJQ VWDII WR UHSOLFDWH P\ FUHative techniques or we would be limited in our growth.

Being an artist that considers every cover a masterpiece with 100% attention to all details, this concept was hard WR JUDVS 0\ EURWKHU H[SODLQHG LW OLNH WKLV ´&DQ \RX EH KDSS\ ZLWK IRU D WHQ IROG LQFUHDVH LQ JURZWK" /RRNing back, it was a no brainer, but it took 4 arduous years IRU PH WR OHDUQ WR OHW WKDW JR

&0 L

BOO

OGIE