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NADIA LEE CO

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Nadia Lee Cohen is tired. It has been just over a year since she released her latest monograph, Hello My Name Is… a masterwork in worldbuilding that saw the British-born conceptualist transform 33 nametags ¿VKHG IURP ÀHD PDUNHWV DQG HVWDWH VDOHV LQWR OLYLQJ EUHDWKLQJ FKDUDFWHUV 7KH SURMHFW ZKLFK HYROYHG LQWR /HH &RKHQ¶V ¿UVW 8 6 VROR H[KLELWLRQ ZLWK -HIIUH\ 'HLWFK LQ /RV $QJHOHV D IHZ PRQWKV ODWHU IHDWXUHV D SRUtrait of each character (rather, a “self-portrait;” the artist has an impressive prosthetics girl), accompanied by a monologue and a snapshot of the objects—coupons, pocket combs, the odd cellophane-wrapped canG\²WKDW PDNH XS WKH GHWULWXV RI D KXPDQ OLIH 7KHUH¶V 7HHQD D KHDYLO\ EURQ]HG 3L]]D +XW HPSOR\HH ZLWK DQ aspirational updo; Morris, a suburban physician with quivering jowls in the throes of a divorce; and Brenda, D EDZG\ 3D\/HVV FDVKLHU ZKR SDVVHV KHU WLPH EHKLQG WKH UHJLVWHU E\ FRXQWLQJ HYHU\ VWLWFK RQ WKH VOHHYH of her polyester blouse. Each character feels shudderingly real, a sign of the empathy and care with which Lee Cohen constructed them. In the time since the project’s release, the multimedia artist has spent her HYHU\ ZDNLQJ PRPHQW WUDQVIRUPLQJ WR ¿W QHZ UROHV²VKRRWLQJ PDJD]LQH FRYHUV DQG GLUHFWLQJ IDVKLRQ FDPpaigns—making the period of quiet introspection that birthed Hello My Name Is… feel like a lifetime ago. “If I GLGQ¶W KDYH WKLV MRE , ZRXOG SUREDEO\ OLYH LQ 3DULV RU /RQGRQ ´ VKH VD\V ³, OLNH FDIH FXOWXUH ÀRZHUV URPDQFH all those pretty things—but they don’t inspire me.” It’s here, in the trashed and sunbleached absurdity of /RV $QJHOHV WKDW /HH &RKHQ IHHOV PRVW DW KRPH DV DQ DUWLVW %HORZ WKH DUWLVW²HYHU RQ WKH JR²SDXVHV WR UHÀHFW RQ KHU NLQJ PDNLQJ SURMHFW DQG WKH FLW\ WKDW LQVSLUHG LW

1$',$ /(( &2+(1 I’m so sorry that I’m driving. $OVR \RX PD\ KHDU SLJ QRLVHV 7KDW¶V P\ IULHQG¶V little dog in the back. 0$5$ 9(,7&+ What have you been doing since the last time we talked? 1/& Oh god, so much. I’m just tired. I feel a deep tired lately, I wonder if it’s medical. 09 It’s been about a year since you released your last monograph, Hello My Name Is…, and D OLWWOH OHVV VLQFH \RXU ELJ VKRZ DW -HIIUH\ 'HLWFK LQ /RV $QJHOHV +RZ KDV \RXU UHODWLRQVKLS ZLWK these characters changed in that time? 1/& , KDYH D IRQGQHVV IRU VSHFL¿F FKDUDFWHUV but I wish that some of them had never been born. 09 Why? 1/& Because I know they could have been betWHU ,W¶V ¿QH , PHDQ WKDW¶V KRZ HYHU\RQH LV %XW I can’t look at my own books, I can’t. But I am proud of certain ones and don’t think I would change anything about them now. But I think about them—they’re a part of me, after all. Even the more frustrating ones. 09 What makes a character feel real to you? 1/& 7KH WKLQJ WKDW PDNHV D UHDO FKDUDFWHU LV D contradiction. You know, like when you see a big WRXJK JX\ ZLWK D OLWWOH GRJ 7KRVH DUH WKH WKLQJV that interest me about people when the way they VQHH]H RU WKH ZD\ WKH\ GHFRUDWH WKHLU KRPH LVQ¶W ZKDW \RX H[SHFW 7KDW¶V ZK\ ,¶P IDVFLQDWHG E\ people’s objects. But of course, some of them do have little quirks and details that I borrowed directly from “real” people. Family members, mostly. 09 What do you think is the biggest contradic-

tion in you? 1/& 7KDW¶V KDUG ,W PXVW EH WKDW , IDLQW DW WKH sight of blood, though I’m not sure what this contradicts besides my deep love of violent cinema. I had a blood test yesterday, and I had to watch 7KH *RGIDWKHU RQ P\ SKRQH WR VWRS P\VHOI IURP fainting. 09 Which scene? 1/& 7KH RQH ZKHUH 6RQQ\ JHWV JXQQHG GRZQ DW the toll booth. 09 What aspect of this transformation process LV PRVW H[FLWLQJ WR \RX"

1/& I mean, obviously everyone’s interested in good-looking people. But when I’m talking to my SURVWKHWLFV JLUO , JHW UHDOO\ H[FLWHG DERXW OLNH D weird calf vein, or these particular kinds of eyebags that some people have, or the way that somebody enunciates. It’s just those little things about people. But this was also during that pandemic period of, like, nothing. I don’t know if I would have been able to dive so deeply into becoming someone else now. 09 Of the many material components of this project—portrait photography, performance, sculpture, assemblage—I’ve always found the

SRFNHW FRQWHQWV WR EH WKH PRVW PRYLQJ 6RPHhow, those little remnants like candy wrappers, combs, and ticket stubs are what make a person real. 1/& 7KDW ZDV WKH HOHPHQW WKDW , ZDV PRVW H[FLWHG DERXW 7KDW ZDV RQH RI WKH FDOPHVW DQG most contented periods in my life. I was trying to understand who each person was by combLQJ WKURXJK WKH FKDULW\ VKRSV ÀHD PDUNHWV DQG HVWDWH VDOHV KHUH DQG LQ WKH 8. )RU VRPH FKDUDFWHUV , KXQWHG IRU VSHFL¿F REMHFWV OLWWOH LQVLGH MRNHV WKDW , ZDQWHG WKHP WR KDYH $ ORW RI LW LV just lying around my house now, which I know doesn’t sound good. I’m trying to be a minimalist. 09 What are the little objects that represent you? 1/& $TXDSKRU IRU P\ OLSV D OLWWOH VLOYHU SLOO ER[ that my mum got last Christmas, a Versace gift card that I’ll probably never spend, a miniature UXEEHU FKLFNHQ NH\FKDLQ IURP -DSDQ P\ SHW stone “Bonting” from when I was a kid. Red hair dye, various skin creams, wood of some sort— because “touch wood” is the only religion I follow—also a commemorative plate with a photo of the Queen Mother on it, because I collect gauG\ UR\DO PHPRUDELOLD $QG KRWHO VOLSSHUV

09 Would you say that you’re funny? 1/& I mean, I come from a background of dark humor. My brother’s a comic actually, he’s very good. Out of all the people closest to me, he gets my sense of humor the most. I think it’s just bled unconsciously into my personal work. But really I’m just drawn to people who make me laugh and don’t take themselves too seriously. Is this making sense?

WR KLJK VFKRRO LQ (VVH[ , DUULYHG RQ P\ ¿UVW day wearing a really long skirt and big Clarks VKRHV²OLNH WKUHH VL]HV WRR ELJ²WKDW FDPH ZLWK D IUHH ZDWFK , KDG WZR 3ULQFHVV /HLHD EXQV DQG my monobrow was unplucked. When I got there, , ZDV OLNH ³7KLV LV QRW WKH ORRN WKDW HYHU\RQH LV JRLQJ IRU 7KHVH SRSXODU JLUOV KDYH EOHDFKHG KDLU ORQJ QDLOV DQG WKH\¶UH WDQQHG ´ $V VRRQ DV , ¿JXUHG WKDW RXW , EOHDFKHG P\ KDLU SXW RQ ORDGV of tan, and bleached my eyebrows. I think that was my earliest one.

09 Yes. 1/& It’s tricky because I’m not a great talker, and ,¶P QRW D JUHDW VHOOHU RI P\ ZRUN 8VXDOO\ , FDQ kind of hide behind it because it’s so loud.

09 It’s a tough time. I had a single eyebrow for far too long myself.

09 You’ve been described as a shapeshifter. Would you say that you’re a shapeshifter? 1/& Yes, I am. I look different all the time. I like to transform, it’s all part of the whole dress-up thing I guess. I mean, I’m not a character day-toGD\ 3HRSOH DOZD\V WKLQN ,¶OO HQG XS ORRNLQJ OLNH ,ULV $SIHO ZLWK WKH MHZHOU\ DQG WKH ELJ JODVVHV but I’ll probably end up like my mom—in jeans with long grey hair. I just dyed my hair ginger, and I’m really like that for now. 09 :KDW ZDV \RXU ¿UVW WUDQVIRUPDWLRQ" 1/& , JUHZ XS RQ D IDUP LVRODWHG 7KHQ , ZHQW 1/& I want to see them, but I’m driving so I can’t. 09 What’s something that people often get wrong about you? 1/& Oh, that’s interesting. I always get the same VWXII 3HRSOH DVVXPH WKDW ,¶P OLNH REVHVVHG ZLWK the ‘50s and ‘60s or something, which could not EH IXUWKHU IURP ZKDW ,¶P LQWHUHVWHG LQ 3HRSOH DVsume I have that nostalgia, but it’s more about QDUUDWLYH WR PH WKDQ LW LV DERXW QRVWDOJLD 7KHUH are particular areas that I’m inspired by—art and

the cinema that I’m drawn to. I just don’t really relate to the modern landscape, so that’s why people make this assumption. But for me, it’s more about narrative and less about nostalgia. 09 What is it about the modern landscape that IHHOV OHVV UHODWDEOH" 'RHVQ¶W HYHU\RQH DOZD\V feel that way in their time? 1/& 1R , WKLQN D ORW RI SHRSOH IHHO OLNH ³7KLV LV the time!” But I feel adrift. I think I get it from my PRP +HU KRXVH LV IXOO RI 9LFWRULDQD 09 +RZ ZRXOG \RX GHVFULEH WKH GLIIHUHQFH EHtween your public, creative persona and your private one? 1/& 2K WKH\¶UH FRPSOHWHO\ VHSDUDWH 7KLV LV the constant battle that I live with. If I didn’t have WKLV MRE , ZRXOG SUREDEO\ OLYH LQ 3DULV RU /RQGRQ on a nice busy street, and wander around. I like FDIH FXOWXUH ÀRZHUV URPDQFH DOO WKRVH SUHWW\ things—but they don’t inspire me. I’ve tried to PDNH ZRUN LQ 3DULV EHIRUH DQG LW GRHVQ¶W ZRUN 7KHUH¶V D KXJH GLIIHUHQFH EHWZHHQ WKH ZRUOG WKDW I actually want to live in, that makes me happy, DQG ZKDW LQVSLUHV PH FUHDWLYHO\ )RU PH /$ LV UHDOO\ SHUIHFW IRU PDNLQJ ZRUN 7KHUH¶V VXFK D weird, magical quality to the architecture and the landscape. It’s barren and has all these connotations that I don’t really understand properly— 2QH VHFRQG 7KHUH¶V D ELQ LQ P\ GULYHZD\ 09 7DNH \RXU WLPH 1/& 7KDW¶V EHWWHU WKHVH EORRG\ ELQV :KDW ZDV , VD\LQJ" 2K ULJKW , PDNH P\ EHVW ZRUN LQ /$

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COLLOBOH

Colloboh (a portmanteau of Collins Oboh) is a Nigerian-born, /RV $QJHOHV EDVHG H[SHULPHQWDO SURGXFHU DQG FRPSRVHU who has spent the past several years cultivating genre-spanQLQJ PRGXODU ZL]DUGU\ $ VHOI WDXJKW V\QWKHVLVW &ROORERK¶V ',< UHFRUGLQJ GLDULHV VWLOO DUFKLYHG RQ ,QVWDJUDP TXLFNO\ amassed a dedicated online following, eventually catching WKH H\H RI /HDYLQJ 5HFRUGV IRXQGHU 0DWWKHZ 'DYLG ZKR ZDVWHG QR WLPH WDSSLQJ WKH WKHQ WZHQW\ VL[ \HDU ROG WR SHUform at the monthly Leaving showcase, Listen to Music Outside In The Daylight Under a Tree. In 2021, Colloboh SHUPDQHQWO\ UHORFDWHG WR /RV $QJHOHV IURP %DOWLPRUH GHGLFDWLQJ KLPVHOI WR PXVLF IXOO WLPH DQG TXLFNO\ EHFRPLQJ D ¿[WXUH RI WKH FLW\¶V YLEUDQW H[SHULPHQWDO VFHQH :KHUHDV &ROORERK¶V GHEXW (3 Entity Relation (released that same year) dove headlong into club beats, Saana Sahel, showcases WKH EUHDGWK RI WKH ÀHGJHOLQJ FRPSRVHU¶V DPELWLRQV 7KH (3¶V WLWOH 6DDQD 6DKHO UHIHUV WR D ODQG RI &ROORERK¶V pure imagining—an untouched utopia spanning lush coastlines and sweeping deserts. Beginning with the stately Acid Sunrise OLNH D 3KLOOLS *ODVV UDYH FRPHGRZQ WKH (3 IXQFtions as an atlas of sorts, mapping the region’s varied enYLURQPHQWV DQG PRRGV $QG YDULHG LQGHHG²DFURVV WKHVH VL[ WUDFNV WKHUH OLH HFVWDWLF MD]] IUHDNRXWV VDPED VKXIÀHV JXHVW YRFDOV IURP VHHPLQJO\ WKH YHU\ 6HUDSKLP DQG LQWHUSRODWLRQV RI 'HEXVV\ DQG *DEULHO )DXUH 7KH EUHDGWK RI sounds conjured here is a testament not only to Colloboh’s HFOHFWLF URVWHU RI LQÀXHQFHV EXW DOVR WKH SHULRG RI GHHS and challenging personal growth that immediately precedHG WKH (3¶V FRPSRVLWLRQ 7KH FRQVWUXFWLRQ RI Saana Sahel (both the imagined locale and the release) served as a spiritual lode star, a place to which Colloboh could retreat for energetic restoration. Ever-generous, Colloboh has charted WKHVH H[SHGLWLRQV IRU XV LQ VRQJ DQG QRZ ZH PD\ DOO GUDZ sustenance and inspiration from the wellsprings of this rich land. 7KH IROORZLQJ LPDJHV DQG WH[W DUH D FDWDORJ RI &ROORERK¶V process building up to the release of Sanna Sahel in May of 2023.

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It’s 2023, war has changed… so has it’s coverage.

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6R EHIRUH , GLG MRXUQDOLVP , KDG YHU\ QRUPDO MREV HYHU\ NLQG RI QRUPDO MRE \RX FDQ WKLQN RI SUHWW\ PXFK , PHDQ , worked in a call center… selling bullshit that people don’t want. I was really bad at that because I just didn’t care. I couldn’t sell someone something they didn’t want. I worked on a building site as a laborer, which means you basically just pick up bricks or smash things up and carry out the detritus from the building site. Everybody on the site fucking hates you. I had no skill. I hated it. If I have to do something I don’t like, I just hate it. , XVHG WR GR XQOLFHQVHG ER[LQJ IRU H[WUD PRQH\ IRU D ZKLOH WRR ZKHQ , ZDV D WHHQDJHU« HYHU\ QRZ DQG WKHQ ,W¶V NLQG of legal, but it’s not. It’s a gray area, but you get paid for it. You don’t have to be any good. I wasn’t. I did that for a little ZKLOH , ZRUNHG LQ WKH ER[LQJ J\P WRR« %XW \HDK PDQ DOO W\SHV RI GLIIHUHQW MREV , OHIW VFKRRO DW ZLWK QR TXDOL¿FDWLRQV because I just messed around in school. 7KLQJV FRXOG¶YH EHHQ PXFK ZRUVH EXW , ZDV YHU\ OXFN\ WR FRPH IURP D JRRG IDPLO\ \RX NQRZ" , PHDQ P\ SDUHQWV , have always had various issues with them, but my grandma and grandad really were always there for me. Very solid. 7KH\ KHOSHG PH VWHHU FOHDU IURP WKH ZRUVW VKLW WKDW ZDV LQ RXU DUHD %\ WKH WLPH , ZDV , PRYHG KRPHV OLNH WLPHV :H PRYHG D ORW EHFDXVH P\ GDG KDV YDULRXV LVVXHV 6R ZH ZHUH MXVW DOZD\V LQ ZKDW \RX JX\V ZRXOG FDOO VRFLDO KRXVLQJ 2YHU KHUH LW¶V FDOOHG FRXQFLO KRXVLQJ 7KH JRYHUQPHQW JLYHV \RX a house but other than that they don’t do a thing for the area. We also had to stay in a hostel, which was really weird because I was like seven years old and had to share a bathroom with a lot of junkies and stuff. But, like I say, it wasn’t VR EDG , ZDV OXFN\ WKDW , KDG P\ JUDQGSDUHQWV 7KH\¶UH JRRG SHRSOH YHU\ KXPEOH ZRUNLQJ FODVV SHRSOH 7KH\ FRPH IURP D JRRG EDFNJURXQG DQG , ZDV YHU\ OXFN\ WKDW , KDG WKHLU LQÀXHQFH 6R , MXVW FDUULHG RQ , IXFNHG XS VFKRRO EXW P\ JUDQGDG KHOSHG PH D ORW WKURXJK OLIH DQG DOZD\V WROG PH WR NHHS UHDGLQJ ERRNV 6R , DOZD\V NHSW UHDGLQJ $OVR 5D\ IURP P\ 7KDL ER[LQJ J\P KH UHDOO\ KHOSHG WRR +H JDYH PH P\ ¿UVW MRE WKDW , HYHU DFWXDOO\ OLNHG ZKLFK ZDV ZRUNLQJ WKHUH DW WKH J\P 6R , ZRUNHG WKHUH IRU IRXU \HDUV IURP OLNH XQWLO 7KDW UHDOO\ WDXJKW PH DERXW UHVSHFW and it helped me communicate with all different kinds of people. It was very hard… in a way. It was a working-class gym, LQ D UXQ GRZQ NLQG RI IXFNHG XS DUHD EXW D ORW RI UHVSHFW ZDV DOZD\V WKH NH\ WKHUH 7KLV ZDVQ¶W D FULPLQDO J\P ,W ZDVQ¶W a franchise where no one gave a shit about each other. It was a real community gym, and it was like family, you know? 7R WKLV GD\ , VWLOO JR WKHUH 6R WKDW UHDOO\ VHW PH ULJKW DQG KHOSHG VHW PH XS IRU OLIH 7R EH KRQHVW WKRXJK RQH RI P\ ELJJHVW PRWLYDWRUV ZHUH MXVW KDYLQJ WKHVH MREV WKDW , KDWHG , ZDV OLNH« , FDQQRW GR WKLV I can’t go out doing this shit. I guess I pushed on from there and taught myself everything I had to.

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issue in Britain. Whereas, if you are kind of middle class, you would call someone a hooligan in the most distasteful way. Like, oh… they’re a hooligan, they’re trash, they’re shit. But if you’re more working class, you would say someone’s a hooligan and it’s not necessarily all bad. It’s someone that LV LQYROYHG LQ FKDRWLF DFWLYLW\ RIWHQ ¿JKWLQJ ,W¶V PXFK ZRUVH WR EH ZKDW ZH ZRXOG FDOO D µURDGPDQ¶ LQ P\ RSLQLRQ 7KDW¶V someone that’s selling drugs in the community and stuff like WKDW 6HQVHOHVV FULPH &RZDUGLFH VWDEELQJ SHRSOH UXGH IRU QR UHDVRQ 7KDW VRUW RI WKLQJ :KHUH ,¶P IURP LI \RX FDOO VRPHone a hooligan, it wouldn’t be so bad, you know what I’m sayLQJ" 1RW WKDW LW¶V JRRG EXW LW GH¿QLWHO\ LV QRW WKH VDPH WKLQJ But no, I wouldn’t say I was a hooligan. I was more of a helOLRQ« 7KDW¶V DQ ,ULVK ZRUG KDQJ RQ +RZ ZRXOG , H[SODLQ that? Like, a hoodlum, you know what I mean? Not a criminal RU DQ\WKLQJ -XVW OLNH D IXFNLQJ OLWWOH VKLW D VKLW EDJ \RX NQRZ" You’re riding bikes up to the river, fucking around, there’s an DEDQGRQHG FDU WKDW \RX VHW ¿UH WR EHFDXVH HYHU\ERG\ NQRZV WKDW LW¶V DEDQGRQHG *HWWLQJ LQWR GXPE ¿JKWV ZLWK WKH RWKHU schools because we go to a different school, dumb shit like that. Like, I thought I was this big fucking hooligan, but I wasn’t really, you know what I mean? I was just a normal kid where I was from, which when you hit a certain age in my town, you either knuckle down with schoolwork or you get into stupid VWUHHW ¿JKWLQJ DQG VHWWLQJ RII ¿UHZRUNV DQG VWXII But like we were never bullies. We, my friends, were all very DZDUH RI WKDW VKLW , JRW H[FOXGHG IURP VFKRRO IRU VWLFNLQJ XS for a friend of mine who was the kid that everybody picked RQ 6RPH NLG VPDVKHG KLP LQ WKH KHDG ZLWK D IXFNLQJ VWRRO IRU QR UHDVRQ VR ZH HQGHG XS ¿JKWLQJ EHFDXVH , ZDQWHG WR GHIHQG P\ PDWH 7KH VFKRRO ZDV OLNH KH¶V K\SHU DJJUHVVLYH he attacked this kid. But no, we were actually defending our IULHQG IURP JHWWLQJ EXOOLHG <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" 6R WKHUH¶V DOZD\V D GLIIHUHQW FRQWH[W , WKLQN , UHDOO\ OHDUQHG WKDW TXLWH young. I was like, okay, well, the teachers are saying this, but DFWXDOO\ ZH ZHUH KHOSLQJ VRPHERG\ \RX NQRZ" 6R LW ZDV D weird coming of age. I was involved in all that rough activity in some way, but also I was getting beaten up because I had D ELJ PRXWK 7KHQ , ZRXOG JHW P\ VKLW SXVKHG LQ EHFDXVH , wasn’t the tough guy I thought I was [laughs]. I was really young then though. Like 14. When I hit about 18, I’d really OHDUQHG D ORW IURP WKH ER[LQJ J\P ,¶G OHDUQW VR PXFK E\ WKDW age that I was like… yeah, this is immature to be acting like WKLV \RX NQRZ" 6R , FKDQJHG , JUHZ XS D OLWWOH ELW DQG , WKLQN that really helped me get on. I was like, right, I need a career. %XW \HDK WR DQVZHU \RXU TXHVWLRQ WKRXJK $ IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ LV VRPHRQH WKDW LV LQYROYHG LQ RUJDQL]HG YLROHQFH EHWZHHQ RWKHU IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ ¿UPV $ ¿UP LV ZKDW \RX ZRXOG FDOO« I guess the crew, or, like the posse, of the hooligans. It originated in Britain, but now it’s a lot bigger in eastern Europe and other countries. *HUPDQ\ KDV D YHU\ ELJ IRRWEDOO KRROLJDQ VFHQH QRZ *HQHUally, most football hooligans are either right wing, apolitical, RU IDU ULJKW 6R WKH DQWL IDVFLVW KRROLJDQV²WKHUH DUHQ¶W D ORW RI

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:KHQ GLG \RX VWDUW JHWWLQJ LQWR MRXUQDOLVP DQG WDNLQJ LW VHULRXVO\" Well, I was always into it, even when I was really young. In VFKRRO , UHPHPEHU EHLQJ \HDUV ROG ZDWFKLQJ %HQ $QGHUVRQ LQ $IJKDQLVWDQ , ZDV OLNH ZRZ WKDW LV IXFNLQJ FUD]\ %HQ $QGHUVRQ LV D QRUPDO JX\ +H¶V DFWXDOO\ IURP %HGIRUG ZKLFK is not far from where I’m from. I met him later in life at Vice. +H ZDV D UHDOO\ QLFH JX\ , JRW DGYLFH IURP KLP :KHQ , ZDV OLNH KH GLG WKLV VHULHV ZKHUH KH ZHQW WR 1RUWK .RUHD DQG places like that. $OVR , ZDV D YHU\ RQOLQH NLG IURP YHU\ HDUO\ RQ /LNH , PDGH D )LQDO )DQWDV\ IDQ SDJH XVLQJ +70/ DQG 1RWHSDG ZKHQ , ZDV QLQH >ODXJKV@ 0\ JUDQGDG JDYH PH DQ +70/ )RU 'XPmies sort of book. I can see it now. It had an ostrich on the front cover. I made a whole website. I was like, really into it. 6R WKURXJK WKDW , ZDV DOZD\V WDSSHG LQWR VKLW (DUO\ RQ LW PDGH PH UHDOL]HG WKHUH LV D ZKROH ZRUOG RI DGYHQture out there. It seemed so far away, but something clicked, and I was like, man, you can literally just go there… Like anyRQH FDQ JR $QG , ZDV DOZD\V UHDGLQJ , ZDV UHDGLQJ DOO P\ OLIH , ZDV UHDOO\ LQWR ¿FWLRQ EXW ZKHQ , ZDV D WHHQDJHU , JRW LQWR QRQ ¿FWLRQ DQG WKDW¶V ZKHQ , VWDUWHG WR UHDOO\ EH OLNH wow, there is so many different things that are just not on the news and interesting. I never had any money, and I was doing all these day jobs, jumping from one thing to the other. I just had this idea that I UHDOO\ KDG WR JHW PRQH\ $QG ZKHQ , VORZHG GRZQ DQG PDtured a little bit, I was like… well, what do I want to do? I’m good at writing. I would love to write, and I always had this idea that I’d write a book, but I was like… nah man, I need the H[SHULHQFH ¿UVW 6R WKHQ WKH ZHLUGHVW WKLQJ KDSSHQHG , ZDV DERXW RU DQG ,¶G OHIW WKH J\P E\ WKHQ 7KH\ FRXOGQ¶W DIIRUG WR NHHS PH RQ 7LPHV ZHUH KDUG , ZDV HDUQLQJ OLNH IRXU pound an hour, you know, like I needed more money [laughs]. 6R , ZDV ORRNLQJ IRU MREV , WKRXJKW , ZDQWHG WR EH D MRXUQDOLVW but I didn’t know what that really meant. I’d look at the news and see some guy in a suit and a tie with a very strange voice. I’m not that guy, you know? I could never be that guy. 6R DQ\ZD\ , ZHQW WR WKLV MRE LQWHUYLHZ DW 7. 0D[ , WKLQN \RX JX\V FDOO LW 7- 0D[ EXW RYHU LQ (QJODQG LW¶V FDOOHG 7. 0D[ , don’t know why… 7R EH KRQHVW , GLGQ¶W HYHQ ZDQW WKH MRE EXW , QHHGHG PRQH\ It was one of those bullshit interviews where you have to do D WHDP EXLOGLQJ H[HUFLVH ZLWK OLNH RWKHU SHRSOH WKDW DOVR want the job. It was like Battle Royale for low wage work, you know? It was just awful, man. Like, all these corporate scumbags are just watching you, like, just loving how hard you’re WU\LQJ WR HDUQ PLQLPXP ZDJH $ZIXO But anyway, this one girl and I got chatting and she asked me,

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:HUH \RX DOZD\V GHDG VHW RQ JRLQJ LQWR &RQÀLFW -RXUQDO LVP" Yes and no. I was interested in what I’m still interested in now. Like, underground shit, the outskirts of society, the fringes, DQG D ORW RI LW KDV WR GR ZLWK ZDU $ ORW RI SHRSOH DW ZDU DUH IURP WKH RXWVNLUWV WKH IULQJHV RI VRFLHW\ $V D NLG , IRXQG WKH LGHD of war so fucking boring. Because in school we just learned about how great the British army was. I grew up with my grandad telling me that Michael Collins was a hero, which I believe he is a hero, so all that jingoistic stuff just didn’t work for me. I was an arsehole as a kid. I was a contrarian. I’d be eight years old, and they’d be teaching this shit in school, and I’d be like, well, what about when, you know, the colonial empire murdered all these kids? Like, I was really like into that shit. Not even on some annoying woke shit. It ZDV EHIRUH WKDW VKLW H[LVWHG 0\ GDG DQG JUDQGDG ZHUH MXVW YHU\ SROLWLFDO EXW QRW SHUIRUPDWLYH 7KH\ ZHUH MXVW YHU\ PDWWHU RI IDFW 7KH\ ZHUH OLNH« WKLV LV KRZ LW LV (DUO\ RQ , UHDOL]HG things are often not what they are presented to you as. My grandad was so smart though, not a contrarian. )RU H[DPSOH P\ JUDQGDG ZRXOG WHOO \RX KH EHOLHYHG LQ ,ULVK 5HSXEOLFDQLVP +H YHU\ PXFK GLG %XW \RX ZRXOGQ¶W VHH P\ JUDQGDG VLQJLQJ ³8S WKH 5$´ RU DQ\WKLQJ OLNH WKDW +H ZDV YHU\ SUDJPDWLF +H ZDV OLNH« ZHOO WKH 5$ KDG WR KDSSHQ because this, this, and this, but they’re not angels. It wasn’t something to glorify. It was just a thing that had to happen to VWRS WKH ,ULVK EHLQJ RSSUHVVHG 6R , JUHZ XS ZLWK WKDW DWWLWXGH that bad things have to happen sometimes for good things WR KDSSHQ $QG QR RQH LV DOO JRRG RU DOO EDG 3HRSOH DUHQ¶W caricatures. From very early on, I was aware that life is not like that. 6R DQ\ZD\ , ZDVQ¶W LQWHUHVWHG LQ ZDU VR PXFK EXW WKHQ , VWDUWHG OHDUQLQJ DERXW UHDO JXHULOOD FRQÀLFW DQG , ZDV OLNH« there’s so many interesting facets to this. I never thought I’d go to war. I always said I wouldn’t but within a year of getting P\ MRE DW 9LFH , ZDV DW ZDU 6R , JXHVV , UHDOO\ ZDQWHG WR EXW

I didn’t know it until I really got looking into it, you know? I started off doing weird, niche shit, strange stuff. I was writing about conspiracy theorists, and for a while I thought… maybe I’ll do like a satire on that. I didn’t know what kind of reporter I wanted to be. I was trying to be too clever, which to be honest, EDFN WKHQ LW ZDV TXLWH D ELJ WKLQJ 7KDW VKLW KDV YDQLVKHG QRZ EHFDXVH HYHU\RQH¶V VR FUD]\ Over time I just really put a lot more effort into the stuff I liked. 7KHQ , JRW UHFRJQL]HG IRU WKH VWXII , OLNHG )RU H[DPSOH , GLG DQ DUWLFOH DERXW $QRQ\PRXV TXLWH HDUO\ RQ EHFDXVH , ZDV into that. I interviewed the co-founder of WikiLeaks who broke away IURP $VVDQJH , ZURWH DERXW VNDWHERDUGHUV WKDW KDG WDNHQ over a mansion in war-torn Libya and turned it into a skate SDUN <RX NQRZ UHEHOV VWXII OLNH WKDW 6R , JXHVV IURP YHU\ early on, I was working out my niche, and to be honest, it’s not really changed. I’m just a lot more certain of what it is now. 'LG \RX KDYH DQ\ H[SHULHQFH ¿OPLQJ GRFXPHQWDULHV EH IRUH \RX VWDUWHG ZRUNLQJ RQ GRFV DW 9LFH 1HZV" I kind of did. Not documentaries, but when I was like 11, 12, 13, I was into skateboarding. I mean, I’m still into it. I think it’s great, but I just don’t skate anymore. I was a decent skater. I was doing big stair sets. I was getting to the point where I was trying out handrails and shit. I loved the whole scene behind VWUHHW VNDWLQJ , UHPHPEHU EHLQJ DQ DQ[LRXV NLG DQG JHWWLQJ LQWR VNDWLQJ ZDV UHDOO\ WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ WKDW SXOOHG PH RXW RI LW D ELW 7KDW ZDV OLNH D ELJ SDUW RI LW 6NDWLQJ ZDV WKH ¿UVW OHYHO DQG WKHQ WKH VHFRQG OHYHO ZDV WKH 7KDL ER[LQJ %XW WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ ZDV VNDWLQJ DQG OHDUQLQJ DERXW WKDW FXOWXUH $QG , PDGH a lot of good friends that I still have now, through skating.

spiration from that and the skate videos as well. Like, I mean, it’s very minor, but even in our last documentary, we brought D ¿VKH\H OHQV $QG WKDW VKLW LV D WKURZEDFN WR WKH ROG VFKRRO VNDWH YLGHR LQÀXHQFHV WKDW ZH KDYH :KHQ , ZDV 2FFXS\ :DOO 6WUHHW ZDV KDSSHQLQJ ,Q (Qgland, we had our own version. It was called Occupy LonGRQ EXW LW VWDUWHG RII DV 2FFXS\ WKH 6WRFN ([FKDQJH %XW YHU\ TXLFNO\ WKDW JRW PRYHG XS WKH URDG 7KH SROLFH PRYHG LW RXWVLGH 6W 3DXO¶V &DWKHGUDO ,W EHFDPH 2FFXS\ /RQGRQ , ZDV UHDOO\ LQWHUHVWHG LQ WKDW ZKROH VFHQH 6DP %ODFN ZKR¶V QRZ RQH RI P\ FR FROODERUDWRUV ZLWK 3RSXODU )URQW ZH ZHUH ERWK very political at that age. I mean now it would be considered some kind of anarchism, but we weren’t anarchists. It wasn’t OLNH WKDW EDFN WKHQ LQ (QJODQG HVSHFLDOO\ (YHQ LQ $PHULFD LW wasn’t quite like that. It wasn’t this side versus that side. It was anti-corruption, anti-control. We felt the boot on our heads. It ZDV WKH ¿UVW WLPH WKDW WKH \RXQJHU JHQHUDWLRQ P\ JHQHUDWLRQ EHFDPH DZDUH WKDW OLNH« RK $PHULFD LV ERPELQJ FKLOGUHQ RU«%ULWDLQ¶V 03V KDYH OLWHUDOO\ EHHQ UXQQLQJ D SHGRSKLOH ULQJ ZLWKLQ JRYHUQPHQW $OO VWXII QRZ ZKLFK ZRXOG JHW \RX FDOOHG D conspiracy theorist, even though it’s all completely documented and true. 7KLQJV ZHUH ZD\ OHVV IDFWLRQDOL]HG EDFN WKHQ :H ZHUH KDQJing out with communists, anarchists, maybe even a more rightwing libertarian, you know? We were in that whole WikiLeaks, 2FFXS\ $QRQ\PRXV VFHQH ,W IHOW UHDO 6R DQ\ZD\ , ¿OPHG DW 2FFXS\ /RQGRQ , JRW P\ IULHQG 6RQQ\ ZKR ZDV VWXG\LQJ SKRWRJUDSK\ DW WKH WLPH +H ¿OPHG DQG , MXVW LQWHUYLHZHG SHRSOH DW 2FFXS\ /RQGRQ $QG WKDW¶V WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ , HYHU GLG , ZDV such a baby. I have the footage somewhere. I’m so young.

<RX VKRXOG VKDUH LW ,W ZDV WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ ZKHUH , UHDOO\ GLVFRYHUHG VXEFXOWXUHV DQG FRXQWHUFXOWXUH ,W ZDV WKH WLPH RI &.< DQG -DFNDVV ZKLFK were both just the best things I’d ever seen in my fucking life. -DFNDVV ZDV FRRO EXW &.< ZDV P\ WKLQJ , WKRXJKW %DP 0DUJHUD ZDV VR FRRO 7KDW ZDV XQOLNH DQ\WKLQJ WKDW KDG HYHU KDSSHQHG EHIRUH $QG LW UHDOO\ ZDV /LWHUDOO\ QRWKLQJ ORRNHG OLNH WKDW 7KH\ FDPH XS ZLWK WKHLU RZQ VW\OH DQG HYHU\WKLQJ 6R , saw that and used to pinch my grandad’s little digital cameras ZKHQ WKH\ ¿UVW VWDUWHG FRPLQJ RXW /LNH IXFNLQJ S ZDV OLNH« ZKRD FUD]\ TXDOLW\ :H ZRXOG MXVW ¿OP VWXII :H¶G ¿OP VNDWHERDUGLQJ EUDZOLQJ DQG SOD\LQJ ZLWK ¿UH²OLNH YHU\ ZLOG GXPE NLG EHKDYLRU ZKLFK you don’t really get these days anymore because everything LV VR SRLVRQHG QRZ .LGV MXVW HQG XS FULPLQDOV \RX NQRZ" %XW anyway, we had all this footage, and I was like, what should ZH GR ZLWK LW" $QG , MXVW VWDUWHG HGLWLQJ LW LQ :LQGRZV 0RYLH 0DNHU DQG JHWWLQJ PXVLF DQG VWXII 7KDW ZDV P\ ¿UVW IRUD\ LQWR LW DQG WR EH KRQHVW D ORW RI WKHP LQÀXHQFHV , VWLOO KDYH QRZ , PHDQ &.< LV YLVXDOO\ RQH RI WKH EHVW WKLQJV ,¶YH HYHU VHHQ , ZDWFKHG LW DJDLQ ODVW \HDU 7R WKLV GD\ , VWLOO WDNH D ORW RI LQ-

Yeah. I’ll have to look for it.

, UHPHPEHU UHDGLQJ D ERRN ZKHUH WKH\ ZHUH WDONLQJ DERXW SHRSOH XVLQJ &KDQ WR KHOS RUJDQL]H VRPH RI WKH 2FFXS\ PRYHPHQWV Yeah, 4Chan was different back then. 4Chan was not what LW LV QRZ $W WKH WLPH &KDQ ZDV D SUHWW\ JRRG SODFH IRU UHDO grassroots political activity. It was a space for that. Now, if you even say that people can get upset. But it’s true. I mean even QRZ WKHUH¶V ORDGV RI LQWHUHVWLQJ VKLW RQ WKHUH 2EYLRXVO\ SRO is the most cringiest and disgusting place ever, but there’s WRQV RI RWKHU ERDUGV 7KHUH¶V OLWHUDOO\ ERDUGV IRU NQLWWLQJ DQG 8)2V \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" ,W¶V MXVW D WKLQJ« Now though I guess you have to have the 100% Correct OpinLRQ RU HOVH <RX PXVW DFTXLUH DOO WKH *RRG %R\ 3RLQWV >ODXJKV@ +DELWXDO 5HGGLWRU PHQWDOLW\ , MXVW GLGQ¶W FRPH XS LQ D WLPH OLNH WKDW 7KLQJV ZHUH PRUH RSHQ DQG QXDQFHG EDFN WKHQ , VHH D

lot of people from my era doing cool shit now, and I just know they were a part of that scene back then. I can just tell.

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translator, he got out. But you get what I’m saying. Not everyone gets lucky.

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LQJ XS IRU XV 7KH\ ZHUH OLNH IXFN \RX /LNH VRPHRQH ZKR spoke English was translating now and then, and basically, they were like saying to the jihadists guys, you came to our country and chopped people’s heads off and brought in this IRUHLJQ MLKDGL FXOWXUH LQWR RXU FRXQWU\ +RZ IXFNLQJ GDUH \RX WHOO XV ZKDW WR GR KHUH" ,W ZDV UHDOO\ FUD]\ WR EH KRQHVW ZLWK \RX 9HU\ GDQJHURXV %XW ZH VXUYLYHG 7KRVH )6$ JX\V ZHUH really solid people.

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6R ,¶P VXUH \RX JHW D EXQFK RI \RXQJ DGXOWV DQG WHHQDJ HUV WKDW OLVWHQ WR 3RSXODU )URQW DVNLQJ \RX KRZ WKH\ FDQ EHFRPH D FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVW :KDW DGYLFH GR \RX QRUPDO O\ JLYH WKHP" Yeah. We get a lot of young people watching us, which is great. Our main audience is roughly 18 to 35. We did this VXUYH\ RQH WLPH ,W¶V FUD]\ EHFDXVH , KDYH D IULHQG WKDW ZRUNV

in marketing, and he was saying to me that there are people ZKHUH KH ZRUNV WKDW JHW SDLG WR JHW WKDW DXGLHQFH 7KDW¶V WKHLU whole job. We didn’t try for that, it just happened. We just did LW OLNH WKLV $QG LW¶V JUHDW ,¶P UHDOO\ JODG WKDW \RXQJ SHRSOH OLNH it. We get a lot of young people contacting us. I just say to them, KRQHVWO\ GRQ¶W GR LW 7KDW¶V DOZD\V WKH ¿UVW WKLQJ 'RQ¶W GR LW <RX GRQ¶W ZDQW WR GLH $QG \RX FDQ GLH YHU\ HDVLO\ GXULQJ WKLV game. Like, very easily. I don’t know. If they’re going to do it, WKH\¶UH JRLQJ WR GR LW QR PDWWHU ZKDW , VD\ 3HRSOH WROG PH QRW WR GR LW , GLG LW 7KHUH¶V QRWKLQJ , FDQ GR WR VWRS WKHP EXW P\ ¿UVW SRLQW LV GRQ¶W GR LW EHFDXVH \RX FDQ GLH 6HFRQGO\ GRQ¶W do it because you won’t earn much money. You won’t get the respect you should have, and a lot of people within war reporting are very bad people. It’s a fucked up industry. I don’t mean to be negative, that’s just the reality. I think honesty should be the main point of your work. But often, it’s not for a lot of war reporters. It’s about them and their ego. It’s about a lifestyle for them. It’s about talking about WKLQJV DW WKH EDU DQG LW¶V DERXW ZKR¶V WKH PRVW *RRG %R\ who’s the good side, what will get me the most positive attention back home… $Q\ZD\ , VD\ WR D ORW RI SHRSOH LI \RX DUH JRLQJ WR JHW LQWR LW GR \RXU UHVHDUFK SURSHUO\ $QG WKDW GRHVQ¶W MXVW PHDQ WKH KLVWRULFDO FRQWH[W ,W PHDQV ZKDW NLQG RI WHUUDLQ DUH \RX JRLQJ to be going to? What kind of car do you need when you get WKHUH" +DYH \RX ORRNHG DW D IXFNLQJ PDS RI ZKHUH \RX DUH JRLQJ" 1R 7KHQ ZK\ DUH \RX JRLQJ WKHUH" :KDW NLQG RI SHRSOH are there? What religion do they believe? What kind of subset is their religion? Will they tolerate who you are? 7KLQJV OLNH WKDW 9HU\ PLQXWH GHWDLOV ZKLFK \RX UHDOO\ KDYH to know about. I basically tell a lot of people to really focus on that stuff, because there’s not enough of that going on. ,¶YH VHHQ D ORW RI \RXQJ FRZER\V JRLQJ LQWR WKH 8NUDLQH ZDU especially right now because it’s close. I just seen the most ULGLFXORXV VKLW LQ P\ OLIH , VDZ D ¿OPPDNHU UHFHQWO\ RQ ,QVWDJUDP SOD\LQJ ZLWK D OLYH JUHQDGH LQ D IXFNLQJ FDIp LQ 8NUDLQH 0DGQHVV <RX¶UH SXWWLQJ SHRSOH¶V OLYHV LQ GDQJHU 7KDW LV SXUH stupidity. You can’t research your way out of stupidity though. $Q\ZD\ , JXHVV P\ SRLQW LV GR \RXU UHVHDUFK RQ PRUH WKDQ WKH VWRU\ 'R \RXU UHVHDUFK RQ WKH ORFDO OHYHO /LVWHQ WR ORFDOV always.

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kids out there like me. :DU UHSRUWLQJ FDQ EHFRPH D YHU\ H[FOXVLYH QLFKH XS LWV RZQ DUVH NLQG RI FOXE , ZDQWHG WR GR WKH RSSRVLWH RI WKDW 7KDW¶V why the line was always: No Frills, No Elitism. No frills, as in, nothing fancy and no elitism, as in, this is for everyone that wants to be involved, you know? I wanted to do it for WKH PLV¿WV WKH JHHNV WKH JRWKV WKH KRROLJDQV WKH ZKDWHYHU We’ve worked with everyone. But it’s not performative. It’s just whatever, so long as you’re good at what you do and have a similar ethos, cool. Like, oh you’re a communist? Cool. Oh, you’re trans? Cool. Oh, you’re whichever race? Cool. It’s all JRRG ZLWK XV 7KHUH¶V WRR PXFK IRFXV RQ SXWWLQJ SHRSOH LQWR LGHQWLW\ FDWHJRULHV 7KDW¶V VR WZLVWHG DQG LQKXPDQ :H MXVW want to work with cool people with great ideas. 7KDW VDLG WR FRQWUDGLFW P\VHOI QRZ ZH ZRXOG QHYHU HYHU ZRUN with anyone that has a problem with someone based on their ethnicity or gender or whatever. We’re very clear about that. $QWL IDVFLVP LV LPSRUWDQW 6RPHWLPHV ZH¶UH FRQVLGHUHG OHIW wing, but we’re just interested in real freedom. Freedom to be who you are, unapologetically. Other than that, we’re not interested in being part of any political scene. Not online anyway.

But anyway, I left. I had the 10 grand and still did a bit of freelance work for them now and then, but even that got fucking LQWROHUDEOH 6R , EXUQW WKURXJK JUDQG ZLWKLQ VL[ PRQWKV EHFDXVH (QJODQG LV D MRNH 6R , KDG WR JR EDFN LQWR IUHHODQFH ZRUN , ZRUNHG DV D SURGXFHU IRU D OLWWOH ZKLOH IRU D 8. EDVHG cultural media company. I was doing a lot of freelance work RQ WKH VLGH DQG , VWDUWHG 3RSXODU )URQW DERXW WKDW WLPH , IHOW like I’d gone back to just working for money because I was broke. I was lucky to be able to still do some kind of media ZRUN VXUH EXW , GLGQ¶W OLNH LW $QG , ZDV OLNH , ZDQW WR GR RQO\ what I want to do.

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$QG OLNH , VDLG EHIRUH WKH LGHD ZDV ZH GRQ¶W QHHG HYHU\ERG\ to agree on everything. You don’t need to be in the club to be a part. You just have to have the uniting features that we have, which is are you interested in war that goes underreported DQG DUH \RX LQWHUHVWHG LQ ORRNLQJ LQWR FRQÀLFW LQ D PRUH QXanced way, with more detail to make it easier to understand? ,I \RX DUH FRRO JHW RQ ERDUG $QG WKDW¶V ZK\ HYHU\ERG\ ORYHV it, I think.

,W¶V QRZ WKH IDVWHVW JURZLQJ FRQÀLFW UHSRUWLQJ SODWIRUP LQ WKH ZRUOG WKDW¶V IXOO\ LQGHSHQGHQW 7KHUH¶V QR RQH HOVH GRLQJ ZKDW we do, and no one’s doing it like we do it either. I was very conscious of making it cool, but not too cool for school. You know, as in Vice. I was always like, nah, nah, nah, I’ve never been the cool kid. I’m not a cool kid. I knew there were a lot of

, ZDV RIWHQ WROG P\ SLWFKHV ZHUH ³WRR QLFKH´ ³7KDW GRHVQ¶W need that detail. It’s not understandable. You make it too complicated.” But I disagree. I think, when you get more niche, it becomes easier to understand. Because when you get into the nitty gritty details, if you do it right—don’t get me wrong, there are really bad ways of doing it where it does become

,W ZDV D ELW RI D MRNH EHFDXVH , VDZ WKDW WKH FRQÀLFW MRXUQDOLVP industry was being overrun by very elitist people. “You are not in our gang” attitudes. I wanted to do the opposite of that. , ZDQWHG WR EH OLNH IXFN \RXU GHFRUXP DQG \RXU XQL 6R WKH LGHD ZDV LW¶V WKH 3RSXODU )URQW IRU WKH /LEHUDWLRQ RI &RQÀLFW -RXUQDOLVP SOD\LQJ RQ WKH ZD\ PLOLWDQW JURXSV ZRXOG XVH WKDW WHUP $QG WKH LGHD ZDV ZH DUH OLEHUDWLQJ LW IURP DOO WKH ROG JXDUG \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" $OO WKHVH SHRSOH ZLWK D VWLFN up their arse.

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PRUH FRPSOLFDWHG²EXW LI \RX GR LW ULJKW LQ D VLPSOL¿HG ZD\ which means you’ve done your research properly, and know KRZ WR H[SUHVV DQG H[SODLQ LW LW EHFRPHV PRUH XQGHUVWDQGable. <RX UHDOL]H ZK\ WKLV JURXS LV VR SLVVHG RII DW WKDW JURXS 7KLV little thing happened here. You know? Every group will tell \RX ZK\ EXW WKHUH¶V PDQ\ RWKHU UHDVRQV 7KHUH DUH RWKHU UHDsons that they don’t talk about, you know what I’m saying? 6R IRU PH LW ZDV D QR EUDLQHU ,¶P D QHUG , XVHG WR KDYH D VSUHDGVKHHW ZLWK HYHU\ VLQJOH .XUGLVK PLOLWDQW JURXS¶V QDPH HDFK JURXS¶V PXVLF ÀDJ DOO VRUWV RI GLIIHUHQW WKLQJV DQG UHDOO\ QHUG\ GHWDLOV ,W EHFDPH H[WUHPHO\ HDV\ WR XQGHUVWDQG ,W¶V a very complicated topic, but when you get into the details WKLQJV EHFRPH FOHDU 6R , MXVW XVH WKDW HOHPHQW ZLWK HYHU\thing. )RU H[DPSOH (O &KDSR¶V VRQ ZDV DUUHVWHG EXW ZK\ ZHUH people killed when they tried to arrest this guy? Well, where he’s from, everybody loves him because he’s the only one that really helps the people. Yes, they’re cartels, but the govHUQPHQW LV VKLW DV ZHOO 6R ZKHQ \RX JHW LQWR WKH GHWDLO \RX get a real understanding. 7KH XQGHU UHSRUWHG VWXII LV SXUHO\ EHFDXVH WKHUH DUH VR PDQ\ ZDUV JRLQJ RQ ULJKW QRZ DQG LI LW GRHVQ¶W LQYROYH 1$72 RU LW GRHVQ¶W LQYROYH D 1$72 DOO\ EHLQJ VHHQ DV D KHUR WKHQ LW MXVW GRHVQ¶W JHW UHSRUWHG DV PXFK , PHDQ ORRN DW $UPHQLD 7KH $UPHQLDQV DUH VFUHZHG ULJKW QRZ 7KH\¶UH QHDUO\ GD\V LQWR EHLQJ EDUULFDGHG LQ $UWVDNK 3HRSOH DUH JRLQJ WR VWDUYH EHFDXVH WKH WRWDOLWDULDQ VWDWH RI $]HUEDLMDQ JDYH WKH (8 VRPH JDV DQG WKH $UPHQLDQV KDYH KDG KHOS IURP 5XVVLD %DVLFDOO\ WKH :HVWHUQ FRPPXQLW\ KDV JRQH IXFN $UPHQLDQV :KLFK is hilarious considering they talk about democratic Western YDOXHV 7KHUH¶V QR VXFK WKLQJ 7KHUH¶V RQO\ VHOI SUHVHUYDWLRQ We decided we don’t want to be involved in that he said, she said, this side, that side. If someone’s getting killed, we want WR NQRZ ZK\ $QG ZH¶UH JRLQJ WR EH KRQHVW DERXW LW :H DUH not what’s seen as traditionally objective, but we’re always KRQHVW \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" :H WHOO WKH WUXWK UHJDUGLQJ $UPHQLDQ ZDUV DQG VRPH SHRSOH VD\ RK \RX VDLG $]HUEDLMDQ¶V a totalitarian state, so you are not objective. I would argue WKDW LW¶V DQ REMHFWLYH RSLQLRQ 7KDW LW LV D IDFW 7KH\ DUH 7R VD\ otherwise is literally a lie. It’s not like one man’s dictator is anRWKHU PDQ¶V SUHVLGHQW 7KHUH DUH YHU\ FOHDU FXW UXOHV WR ZKDW LV DQG LVQ¶W GHVWUXFWLRQ RI IUHHGRP 3HRSOH KDYH VHHQ RXU VKLW and know that we’re going to tell them what’s happening on the ground. We’re not going to try to please one side or the other. We’re just telling what is happening.

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WR LW 6R \RX KDYH WR PDNH LW ORRN FRRO $QG LW¶V IXQ WR PDNH shit look cool. It’s that simple. But also, it’s war. It’s serious. We never show something gnarly and put things out of conWH[W /LNH LI D ZRPDQ LV FU\LQJ ZLWK KHU NLG LQMXUHG ZH¶UH QRW JRLQJ WR WKHQ SXW GUXP DQG EDVV RYHU LW 3HRSOH WKDW FULWLFL]H our style as insensitive have never paid proper attention to it. If it’s a riot, we make it look energetic and wild. Why? Because that’s what it feels like to be there. Our idea is to make it feel like what it feels like on the ground. Obviously, you’ll never really feel it, but if you can edit that atmosphere in with the aesthetics, the music, and the cut, then that’s solid. You can see what a riot looks like, but the way we edit, we create a feeling, you know what I mean? Which sounds a bit up its own arse, but it’s true. If we can do that, then I think that’s great. I WKLQN WKDW¶V UHDO SURSHU ¿OPPDNLQJ

<HDK ZKHUH WKH\¶UH VHWWLQJ ¿UH WR WKHPVHOYHV DQG MXPSLQJ on barb wire. I remember watching the videos, and the way WKH\¶G PDNH LW ZDV VR UDWFKHW ,W ZDV ',< DQG WKH\¶G HGLWed it on the actual camcorder. I actually did this when I was \RXQJ :KHQ ZH ¿UVW VWDUWHG ¿OPLQJ VWXII ZH GLG LW RQ D +L video camera and would edit by pressing record on the tape LQ D 9+6 :KHQ ZH ZDQWHG WR GR D FXW ZH¶G KDYH WR SUHVV stop, fast forward the camera, and then press record again RQ WKH 9+6 PDQXDOO\ GRLQJ D FXW $QG WKDW¶V KRZ WKHVH PDG Backyard Wrestling people would do it. I like to have some QRG WR WKDW VW\OH VWLOO LQ RXU HGLWV 6RPH SHRSOH WKLQN RXU HGLWV are messy but I think it’s raw. It’s meant to be jumpy like that sometimes. I think it looks cool and it really owes to riot footage. Cause that’s what it feels like, right? Like, one minute, RQH WKLQJ¶V KDSSHQLQJ DQG WKH QH[W DQRWKHU WKLQJ LV KDSSHQing. We do it less now because we try and keep up with current LGHDV EXW ZKHQ ZH ¿UVW VWDUWHG 9DSRUZDYH ZDV UHDO ELJ DQG ZH LQFRUSRUDWHG WKDW LQWR 3RSXODU )URQW %XW LW ZDVQ¶W MXVW WKH sound, it was the aesthetic and the ideology behind it. Vaporwave was very anti-corporate, but without being like obviously a current ism, you know? It wasn’t this or that or whatever boring theories are in fashion right now. It wasn’t that. It was real grassroots. It had its own soul, and no one could bottle LW 7KDW ZDV UHDOO\ D ELJ LQVSLUDWLRQ DW WKH VWDUW , UHDG D ERRN DW WKH EHJLQQLQJ RI 3RSXODU )URQW FDOOHG ³%DEEOLQJ &RUSVH 7KH &RPPRGL¿FDWLRQ RI *KRVWV´ ZKLFK LV D YHU\ QLFKH QHUG\ book about the culture behind Vaporwave and where it came from, and what it really stands for. It felt like a continuation of WKH ROG VFKRRO $QRQ\PRXV 2FFXS\ LGHRORJ\ WKDW , FDPH XS LQ It’s like a nomadic anti-authoritarianism.

$OVR RXU VW\OH LV RIWHQ YHU\ WRQJXH LQ FKHHN 7R EH KRQHVW that’s an inspiration we took from old war propaganda postHUV 7KH\ ZHUH VR IXQQ\ VRPHWLPHV 3RSXODU )URQW KDV EHHQ OLNH WKDW IURP WKH VWDUW 6RPH WKLQJV ZH GR KDYH SHRSOH VD\LQJ ³RK WKDW¶V UHDOO\ FKHHN\ EXW LW¶V IXQQ\ DQG WUXH´ 7KDW¶V ¿QH , WKLQN /LNH WKH 81 W VKLUW KDV ZH VHOO KDV ³7KH 81 LV 'HHSO\ &RQFHUQHG´ SULQWHG RQ LW ZLWK WKH ORJR RI WKH 81 VLJQ RQ ¿UH It’s that whole cheeky aesthetic and vibe. You meet people OLNH WKDW DW ZDU \RX NQRZ" 7KDW¶V SDUW RI LW ,W¶V SHRSOH WKDW believe in something, but they’re also jaded by the fuckery of WKH LQGXVWULDO PLOLWDU\ FRPSOH[ RU ZKDWHYHU HOVH LW LV WKDW¶V SXWting the foot on their neck. Now obviously we’re not earnestly VD\LQJ OHW¶V EXUQ GRZQ WKH 81 7KDW¶V QRQVHQVH :H¶UH MXVW highlighting issues with such a huge monolith in a quick and funny way is all. $OVR WR D OHVVHU GHJUHH WKH ZKROH :HLUG 7ZLWWHU VFHQH LQVSLUHG XV D ELW ,W¶V QRW VXFK D ELJ WKLQJ QRZ EXW :HLUG 7ZLWWHU ZDV DQ LQVSLUDWLRQ EDFN WKHQ :KHQ ZH ¿UVW JRW 3DWUHons, the dancing alien meme was about so we used that to DQQRXQFH LW 3HRSOH ZHUH OLNH ZKDW WKH IXFN KDV WKLV JRW WR GR ZLWK ZDU" 1RWKLQJ 7KDW¶V WKH SRLQW <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" It’s not that we’re clever or anything like that. I just think why not be weird sometimes? Make people go “eh?” $OVR UHJDUGLQJ LQVSLUDWLRQV ROG VFKRRO SXQN VWXII :KHQ , VD\ SXQN , GRQ¶W PHDQ SHUKDSV ZKDW $PHULFDQV ZLOO FRQVLGHU SXQN , WKLQN $PHULFDQ SXQN ZDV YHU\ FRRO /LNH HVSHFLDOO\ LQ WKH QLQHWLHV DQG V 6WUDLJKW HGJH FXOWXUH ZDV GH¿QLWHO\ D very big thing that we like. But I don’t mean that kind of punk. I mean the Eastern European kind of neo-punk, which is very GLIIHUHQW ,W¶V KDUG WR H[SODLQ ,W¶V OLNH VWUHHWZHDU VW\OH EXW LW¶V

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also punk, you know? It’s 1312 culture, but without highly political 1312 culture, you know what I mean? It’s different. It’s from people who have a real reason to hate the cops, not just VRPH DFWLYLVW VD\LQJ LW RQ 7ZLWWHU European ultra culture is also a big inspiration for us. Not on a vulture vibe either. We’re associated or we’re friendly with these people and they have very cool scenes. I mean no oth-

I want to say yes, as if I followed this clever path… but no. I remember at the start thinking where am I headed with this? , UHPHPEHU EHLQJ UHDOO\ XQVXUH DQG WKHQ ZLWKLQ WKH ¿UVW HSLVRGHV LW H[SORGHG ,¶P QRW H[DJJHUDWLQJ 7KH QXPEHUV H[SORGHG DQG , ZDV OLNH ZKDW WKH IXFN" 7KLV LV ZRUNLQJ :LWKLQ WKH ¿UVW VL[ PRQWKV SHRSOH VWDUWHG VD\LQJ LW ZDV D QHZ W\SH of journalism. I was unsure of my ability to build something EDFN WKHQ WKRXJK EXW LW ZRUNHG $Q\RQH FRXOG KDYH GRQH WKLV though. I just happened to, you know?

:KHQ 3RSXODU )URQW VWDUWHG ZH¶G GRQH RQH VPDOO YLGHR WKLQJ but I was really unsure if we could do it properly. One night , ZDV FKDWWLQJ WR WKLV %UD]LOLDQ ZRPDQ ZKR ZDV RQH RI WKH IHZ SHRSOH JLYLQJ PH HQFRXUDJHPHQW WR PDNH 3) VRPHWKLQJ bigger. I was mad in love with her man [laughs]. We had great times. We don’t even speak anymore actually. I hate that. But anyway, she was one of the few people around me who was like you can make this much bigger! $W WKH WLPH VKH ZDV LQ )UDQFH DQG , UHPHPEHU KHU VD\LQJ WR me, you should cover the Yellow Vest stuff. I was like, what on D SRGFDVW" 6KH VDLG QR \RX VKRXOG FRPH DQG ¿OP LW 6KH VDLG MXVW GR LW IRU 3RSXODU )URQW GRQ¶W VHOO LW MXVW GR LW , GRQ¶W NQRZ ZK\ EXW WKH IDFW VKH WKRXJKW WKDW ZDV YLDEOH OLW D ¿UH XQGHU PH DQG , GLG LW 7KDW ZDV WKH ¿UVW SURSHU YLGHR ZRUN ZH did, covering the Yellow Vest protests. We really went into the GHWDLOV WRR 7KH PDLQVWUHDP ZHUH YHU\ PXFK VD\LQJ 7KLV LV an uprising and the rioters are being a little bit violent with the police being a bit violent back to them. ,W ZDVQ¶W OLNH WKDW 6XUH WKH ULRWHUV ZHUH EHLQJ YLROHQW EXW you’re talking about people throwing bricks and rocks versus SROLFH OLWHUDOO\ WDNLQJ SHRSOH¶V H\HV RXW 6HYHUDO SHRSOH GLHG French police are just unbelievable. In my travels, the only police I’ve come across that are worse than French police is 7XUNLVK SROLFH DQG WKDW¶V VD\LQJ VRPHWKLQJ (YHQ *HUPDQ SROLFH DUH EHWWHU WKDQ WKH )UHQFK FRSV DQG WKH\¶UH EUXWDO 6R we documented almost every single ‘very serious’ injury in a PLQXWH GRF DQG LW WRRN RII IURP WKHUH ,W GLG ZHOO 7KDW¶V ZKHQ ZH JRW D ORW RI DWWHQWLRQ 7KDQNV IRU WKH HQFRXUDJHPHQW Reggie. 7KHQ HYHQWXDOO\ DIWHU D IHZ \HDUV ZH PDGH 3ODVWLF 'HIHQFH 7KDW¶V ZKHQ VKLW EOHZ XS IRU XV 6R QRZ LURQLFDOO\ HQRXJK we’re more known for our documentaries than the podcast, and the podcast has nearly 200 episodes and millions of downloads and we’ve only made about 10 documentaries. Only two of those have over a million views. Being on the JURXQG LV VWLOO NLQJ 7KHUH¶V QRWKLQJ OLNH :KDW \RX VHH LV D ORW better than just listening, I think. It’s a better art form for us as well… Not art form, but you know what I mean. We can get our style and ethos across a lot better in documentary form.

7R NHHS XS ZLWK WKH PRPHQWXP WKH VSHHG RI ZKLFK 3RSXODU Front is growing, and do everything we want to do, we need a ORW PRUH FDSLWDO 6R WKH IXWXUH GHSHQGV RQ FDSLWDO :H QHHG someone to come in and give us a hundred grand. We need a real proper sponsor. We have a few sponsors, and we love WKHP EXW LW¶V YHU\ OLWWOH PRQH\ 7KH\¶UH SHRSOH ZH OLNH WKH\¶UH good people, but they run small, independent businesses, and they can’t really afford to pay a lot. If we can get the money, we’ll start doing whole series and everything will get branded up. It won’t just be random doc here and random doc there. It will be a whole series focused on one region or focused on this or that. I want to get other reporters in front of the camera, as well. I want to have a proper team. I want the whole team WR EH DEOH WR GR WKLV ZKHUH HYHU\ERG\¶V ZRUNLQJ DQG GRLQJ VWXII %XW XQWLO WKHQ \HDK LW¶V GLI¿FXOW 7KH VKRS LV JHWWLQJ UHYDPSHG VRRQ WKRXJK :H¶UH VKXWWLQJ GRZQ WKH ]LQH DQG ZH¶UH VWDUWLQJ D SURSHU TXDUWHUO\ PDJD]LQH OLNH DQ $ PDJD]LQH :H KDYH D FRPSDQ\ WKDW ZH¶UH FROODERUDWLQJ ZLWK FDOOHG (DV\ 'D\V 6WXGLR 7KH\ DUH JRRG people that are very established in their own way but want to work with us. We want independent people that are in bigger positions to reach out and say do you want to work together? We love collaborating.

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a new form, the idea that they’re not still fundamentally a farULJKW RUJDQL]DWLRQ LV DEVXUG 7KH\ DEVROXWHO\ VWLOO DUH DQG WKH whitewashing of their political views by so many reporters is a VSLW LQ WKH IDFH WR HYHU\RQH $]RY KDV EXOOLHG DQG DWWDFNHG IRU being different.

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country brought in a law that has basically made protesting illegal. <HDK , ZDV MXVW DERXW WR DVN \RX DERXW -6WDUN ,Q 3ODVWLF 'HIHQFH \RX FDOO KLP RQH RI WKH PRVW GDQJHURXV SHRSOH 'R \RX VWLOO IHHO WKDW ZD\" <HV , WKLQN KH LV , VWLOO VWDQG E\ WKDW +H¶V RQH RI WKH PRVW GDQgerous people I’ve ever met, but I don’t think being dangerous LV JRRG RU EDG 7KDW ZDV P\ SRLQW , GRQ¶W SHUVRQDOO\ VHH GDQgerous as a negative connotation all the time. Who are you being dangerous to, you know? If someone’s attacking me, I want to attack them back. Now for them, I’m then dangerous if I start to win. But that’s good, right? Because I’m defending P\VHOI ,¶P XWLOL]LQJ WKH DELOLW\ WR EH GDQJHURXV WR VDYH P\VHOI from harm. 7DNH 8NUDLQLDQ VROGLHUV IRU H[DPSOH 7KH\¶UH GDQJHURXV SHRSOH 7KH\¶UH WUDLQHG WR NLOO :KHQ WKH\ KDYH ZHDSRQV WKH\¶UH LQFUHGLEO\ GDQJHURXV EHFDXVH WKH\¶UH JRRG DW ¿JKWLQJ DQG WKH\ KDYH D JRRG VSLULW 7KH\ ZDQW WR NHHS JRLQJ DQG WKDW¶V dangerous, but it’s good danger because they’re dangerous for Russian troops who’re invading their country and killing their kids. Maybe that’s not the correct way to talk about danger I don’t know, but that’s the way I see it. Which I’m not saying is right, but when I say someone’s dangerous, for me I don’t see it as a negative thing. In fact, in England, we actually use the word dangerous to mean that someone is really pretW\ VRPHWLPHV $V LQ ZRZ VKH¶V GDQJHURXV <RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" ,W¶V QRW DOZD\V QHJDWLYH 6RPHWLPHV LW¶V SRVLWLYH $ JX\ \RX NQRZ WKDW¶V D JRRG ¿JKWHU OLNH LQ FRPEDW VSRUWV LV GDQgerous, and that’s good. We don’t mean anything bad, so it’s a tricky one. I don’t know. I should have probably used different words. I understand that the whole world isn’t going to see shit the way I see shit, and I know I’m a weird guy [laughs], but I see it how I see it. You need dangerous people to keep you safe sometimes.

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life at risk to show the world how their shit got fucked up.

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:KDW GR \RX SOD\" I play World of Warcraft when I can. I got back into that when they released the classic version. I love that fucking game. I play weird games, like point-and-click adventure games. I GRQ¶W NQRZ LI \RX¶YH KHDUG RI %URNHQ 6ZRUG RU 0RQNH\ ,VODQG« WKHP NLQG RI JDPHV 7KH\¶UH OLNH LQYHVWLJDWLYH JDPHV 7KH\¶UH VWRU\ GULYHQ /LNH \RX FDQ¶W GLH LQ PRVW RI WKHP , OLNH them kind of games. I grew up playing them. I still play them.

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, UHPHPEHU \RX ZRXOG MXVW VFUROO WKURXJK DQG FOLFN RQ YLGHRV DV WKH\ DSSHDUHG RQ WKH ZHEVLWH Yeah, and it could be like… an old man just mowing his lawn RU VRPHWKLQJ 5HDO QLFH 1RZ \RX ¿QG DOO WKHVH IXFNLQJ VSRQVRUV RQ HYHU\WKLQJ 7R PDNH PRQH\ \RX KDYH WR ZRUP \RXU ZD\ LQWR DQ LQWHUQHW FOLTXH +DVDQ 3LNHU ZDV ZDWFKLQJ RXU stuff on stream recently and he was like oh they’re anarchos. +H ZDV EHLQJ UHDOO\ QLFH DERXW XV EXW , LPPHGLDWHO\ ZHQW RQ 7ZLWWHU DQG VDLG ORRN ZH DUH QRW DQDUFKRV :H KDYH IULHQGV who are, but we’re not under that umbrella. I don’t want to HYHU EH LQ D FOLTXH , VWDUWHG WKLV IRU WKH PLV¿WV QRW IRU WKH clique, you know what I’m saying? I don’t want to get in the clique just to make money because then what’s the point in anything.

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part one: hysteresis

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end of part one: hysteresis

&0 L

CARSTEN HOLLER

CLOCKS

Holler’s work is about perspective and aims to always shift the viewers. His work boarders hallucinatory experiences that grant us a moment to question the way we view the world around us. Born in 1961 in Brussels, Holler began making work in the late 1980’s that experimented with space and experience. He received his doctorate in agricultural science in 1988, following which he worked as a research entomologist, before returning to art as a full time practice in 1993. The body of work shown here is titled Clocks, which exhibited at rue de Castiglione and the exterior-facing vitrine at rue de Ponthieu, the exhibition focused on how the measurement of time impacts human ways of being. “I wanted to make the most complicated clock on earth,” says Höller of Half Clock (2021). In this neon sculpture, three encapsulated spheres of curved lighting tubes represent seconds, minutes, and hours. Time is indicated by the division of the surface of each sphere into spatial units, which are themselves divided into consecutively smaller parts. While half of the time is not represented at all—hence the work’s title—the clock’s accuracy increases with each subsequent division of space. Another neon work, Decimal Clock (2023), also registers time in an unfamiliar manner, applying the decimal system to a numberless illuminated disc composed of twenty blue and orange neon rings, which account for ten decimal “hours,” one hundred decimal “minutes,” and one hundred decimal “seconds.” This calibration reverts to one proposed during the French Revolution, reminding us that the variant to which we are accustomed is a rather clumsy construction. The darkened glass panels of Black Sliding Window (2023) mark time by opening on the hour, as well as whenever they are approached. Making the behavior of the viewer its subject, the work also enacts an explicit, active connection between chronology, movement, and space. On view in the vitrine at the rue de Ponthieu gallery is Giant Triple Mushroom (2023), a two-meter-high sculpture in polychrome aluminum. The work’s form combines en* 0%#" !0-11Ĕ1#!2'-,1 -$ 2&0## "'Ǝ#0#,2 1.#!'#1 -$ +31&0--+Ď ',!*3"',% 2&# 0#"Ĕ capped fly agaric, reflecting Höller’s fascination with the idea that this notoriously toxic and hallucinogenic fungus may have played a role in the development of shamanism, and thus constitutes a link to ancient proto-religious culture. The three spe!'#1 *1- 0#.0#1#,2 #4-*32'-, 07 2'+#Ď 1 2&# "'Ǝ#0#,2 1& .#1Ď !-*-01Ď ," .17!&-active ingredients of their fruiting bodies most certainly evolved from those of a common ancestor. Finally, Giant Triple Mushroom resonates with Höller’s continued exploration of doubling and rupture, and hence to the division and subdivision of time that is visualized in the clock works. In presenting the work here in COMFORT Holler opted to have the work accompanied by poems by CALEB KLACES from his book Away From Me.

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NICK AMATO: /HW¶V EHJLQ ZLWK \RXU RULJLQV DQG KRZ \RX EHJDQ PDNLQJ DUW ANDREA WILKIN: I would say most of my childhood I moved around a lot. My family and I relocated to different countries every four years. I think that really played into my personality. I was kind of quiet as a kid, so I’d listen into conversations and kind of observe the world around me or admire inanimate REMHFWV , IHOW WKH QHHG WR YLVXDOL]H WKLQJV WR HQWHUWDLQ P\VHOI sort of like imaginary play. I remember doing that a lot with my VLVWHU DQG WKHQ , UHDOL]HG DV , JUHZ ROGHU WKDW LW¶V QRW HYHU\RQH doesn’t have that kind of like—can you imagine an apple in \RXU KDQGV" %XW FDQ \RX UHDOO\ LPDJLQH LW" 7KDW NLQG RI WKLQJ I think even when I paint now, I’ll try and project the image on the canvas before I paint. I’ve always had that since I was young, so it’s just something important to me. &DQ \RX UHFDOO D FHUWDLQ PRPHQW WKDW VSDUNHG \RXU LQWHU HVW LQ SDLQWLQJ" :KHQ LW FRPHV WR SDLQWLQJ VSHFL¿FDOO\ , ZRXOG VD\ LW ZDV LQ my last year of high school. It was actually my art teacher that really impacted me, and was the turning point for me to choose to do this for my life. I think he knew I was always concerned with what I wanted to do because my family’s quite acDGHPLF DQG , GLGQ¶W NQRZ ZKDW , FRXOG H[FHO LQ 0\ DUW WHDFKer gave me that push and was like, you should pursue this, ZKLFK , KDGQ¶W UHDOO\ WKRXJKW DERXW +H ZRXOG VQHDN PH RLO SDLQWV ZKHQ QR RQH HOVH ZDV XVLQJ RLO +H OHW PH VLW LQ DW OXQFK HYHU\ VLQJOH OXQFK HYHU\ GD\ DQG SDLQW +H HYHQ DOORZHG PH WR WDNH PRUH DUW FRXUVHV WKDQ , ZDV VXSSRVHG WR 6R WKDQNV WR KLP DQG RI FRXUVH P\ IDPLO\ KRQHVWO\ +LV QDPH¶V 5LFKDUG Miller, by the way. , UHDG WKDW \RX DOVR ZHUH D KLJKVFKRRO YLVXDO DUW WHDFKHU :DV WKHUH VRPHWKLQJ DERXW \RXU WHDFKHU¶V OLQH RI DFWLRQ WKDW HYHQWXDOO\ OHG \RX WR ZDQW WR PROG \RXQJ DUWLVWV" Yeah, absolutely. I would say his approach affected me a lot LQ WKDW KH ZDV VXFK D WDOHQWHG UHDOLVW SDLQWHU +H KDG D IHZ paintings hiding around the classroom, but he would never show me his work and say like, oh, this is how you should GR LW NLQG RI WKLQJ 6R ZKHQ , VWDUWHG WHDFKLQJ KLJK VFKRRO students, I also didn’t wanna show them my paintings. I felt like it could deter the kids from wanting to make art, because, you know, their idea of what’s good and what’s bad is kind RI VNHZHG 6R , XVXDOO\ GLG LQVWDOODWLRQ ZRUN DQG IRFXVHG RQ

WKH SURFHVV ZLWK WKHP $QG LQHYLWDEO\ LI WKH\ IRFXV RQ WKH process they’re bound to make a good product or something that they’re proud of. Maybe towards the middle of the year I would show them that I was a practicing artist, you know, the need to make money off of it and show them different things in WKH DUW ZRUOG EXVLQHVV WKDW WKH\ PD\ QRW NQRZ , UHDOO\ WDXJKW them the opposite of what I was doing. I gave them freedom RQ WKHPDWLFV DQG OHW WKHP H[SHULPHQW ZLWK ZKDWHYHU PDWHULDOV they wanted to try out. :RXOG \RX VD\ WKHUH LV DOPRVW D WKURXJK OLQH EHWZHHQ KRZ \RX YLHZ OLIH DQG KRZ \RX DSSURDFK DUW" 'H¿QLWHO\ , WKLQN D ORW RI P\ DUW LQ WKH SDVW ZDV YHU\ PXFK about identity and how I would feel and what I would see, but ,¶P UHDOL]LQJ DV , JHW ROGHU WKDW WKHUH¶V D ORW RI YDOXH LQ ¿QGLQJ a balance with my artwork. Where it’s personally poignant but DW WKH VDPH WLPH WKHPDWLFDOO\ DFFHVVLEOH E\ WKH YLHZHU 6R ,¶P WU\LQJ WR ¿QG WKDW EDODQFH ZKHUH LW¶V QRW MXVW OLNH DERXW P\VHOI my relationships and, you know, the symbolism of my identiW\ ,¶P WU\LQJ WR DFFHVV DQG UHÀHFW VRPHWKLQJ EURDGHU , WKLQN that’s why I stopped painting people for a little bit. 6RPH RI \RXU QHZ ZRUNV OLNH Bean Bags, Slide, and Dredger VHHP WR OLYH DV D SDUW RI WKLV GHSDUWXUH IURP \RXU SUHYLRXV VXEMHFW PDWWHU &DQ \RX VSHDN WR ZKDW LQIRUPHG WKLV WUDQVLWLRQ" :KHQ , ZDV SDLQWLQJ KXPDQ ¿JXUHV D ORW RI WKRVH SHRSOH , ZDV SDLQWLQJ ZHUH NLQG RI OLNH D UHSUHVHQWDWLRQ RI P\VHOI $V , grow older, I think I have a grasp on myself and don’t feel the QHHG WR RXWSXW WKDW QHFHVVDULO\ $W WKH VDPH WLPH , GRQ¶W ¿QG the transition as drastic to me as it may be to my viewer, because there’s still this substance to them. I wanna give them VXEVWDQFH 7KDW¶V ZKDW ,¶P WU\LQJ WR ZRUN RQ , ZDQW WR NLQG RI give the viewer an anthropomorphic lens on everyday scenes DQG REMHFWV , JXHVV ¿QGLQJ WKDW XQUHDOL]HG RU XQLQWHQWLRQDO EHDXW\ LQ VRPH ZD\V 6R WKDW¶V ZK\ IRU PH WKH WUDQVLWLRQ LVQ¶W DV FUD]\ <RXU QHZ SDLQWLQJ Car Parts LV D SLHFH WKDW GUDZV IURP D VFHQH RI VFUDSSHG FDU PDWHULDOV OD\LQJ RYHU HDFK RWKHU LQ VFXOSWXUDO IRUP +RZ ZDV WKLV H[SHULHQFH RI FROOHFWLQJ DUUDQJLQJ WKHQ SDLQWLQJ WKHVH VFUDSSHG FDU PDWHULDOV" I just came across the car parts with a friend (Cameron Morse), ZKR VDZ LW DQG VDLG WKDW LW ORRNHG OLNH ³'UH SDLQWLQJ´ 7KDW RQH

was probably the most different from my earlier works. I wanted to avoid using the reference so directly. Weirdly enough I EDVHG WKH SDOHWWH RQ D WURSLFDO ¿VK WKDW , OLNH 1R RQH NQRZV that, but it’s just like a funny little thing that I have in my head WKDW , EDVHG WKH FRORUV RII RI WKLV UDQGRP ¿VK , ZDV WU\LQJ not to attach those realistic colors to the painting and I felt so much more freedom with that. Maybe a bit too much freedom. $UH WKHUH DQ\ SODQV WR KDYH D VKRZLQJ RI \RXU QHZ ZRUNV LQ WKH QHDU IXWXUH" I’m hoping to show a series later this year. I’m planning to show a series of paintings of playground structures later this year. It will be something less playful than the generic understanding of a playground, and a bit more dark. Maybe it’s about the sense of missing my own childhood but it may mean something different to someone else. ,V WKHUH D SDLQWLQJ RI \RXUV WKDW \RX IHHO LV PRVW LQWLPDWH RU SHUVRQDO WR \RX" , FRXOGQ¶W VD\ RQH QHFHVVDULO\ 7KH\ DOO WLH WRJHWKHU LQ VRPH way. , VDZ SRVWHG RQ \RXU ZHEVLWH D SDLQWLQJ \RX PDGH D GH SLFWLRQ RI \RXU IDPLO\¶V JUHHQ WHD ¿HOGV , ZDV FXULRXV WR DVN DERXW LW¶V VLJQL¿FDQFH WR \RX" 0\ JUDQGSDUHQWV KDG D JUHHQ WHD FRPSDQ\ LQ 6KL]XRND -Dpan until a few years ago. We only have a handful of bags left and it’s very special to us. My mom and aunt both worked in WKH ¿HOGV ZKHQ WKH\ ZHUH \RXQJ , JUHZ XS UXQQLQJ DURXQG there, so there’s an element of nostalgia there too. 'R \RX KDYH LQWHUHVW LQ JRLQJ EDFN WR -DSDQ" , WU\ WR JR HYHU\ WZR \HDUV 7KH ODVW WLPH , YLVLWHG ZDV 1RYHPber, which was a really special time. I’m hoping to go more and do a residency. I get a lot of inspiration over there. Eventually I want to live there for a period of time, for sure.

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DANIEL ALBRIGO

Daniel Albrigo is a kind, humble soul, who works across multiple mediums all interlinked by a mix of his own personal photographs and appropriated images, that touch on American culture. I saw his latest collection of sumi-ink drawings on display at his recent solo exhibition at 2-3 Fair in Santa Monica CA, which are truly fascinating. From afar they resemble Xerox prints, but on closer inspection reveal they’re extremely intricate hand drawings.

Daniel has exhibited at numerous prestigious galleries around the world, has spent over 20 years tattooing, avidly collects art and fishes to reset. He invited me to his home / studio in Costa Mesa to give me further insight into his latest projects and what’s currently buzzing around in his creative mind.

AW: Tell me about where you grew up and your family life in your early years?

DA: I was born in 82 and grew up in LaVerne, Ca near the LA County Fair Grounds. I grew up in a divorced/remarried family and have 5 siblings between the 2 families.

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What were you into as a teenager? (music, film, art, $ 1&'-,Ď 1) 2#Ď !-3,2#0Ĕ!3*230# 123Ǝġ There was a pretty big skate and music scene in my area, I was out as much as my folks would let me. We had a lot of iconic skate spots near us, so we skated almost everyday. My first job was at a skate shop called Utility Board Shop. Outside of skating, we were kind of sheltered growing up and we were very music hungry. When we got old enough to go to shows we went to anything that sounded fun. Punk, Ska, Reggae, Raves, random parties we would hear about at school, if it seemed interesting we would check it out.

When did you first discover being “creative” was going to be your chosen path and how did that !-+# -32ċ Ġ"0 5',%Ď .&-2-%0 .&7Ď %0 Ǝ'2'Ď + % 8',#1ččġ My Mom is a very talented artist and from a very young age encouraged me to draw and paint. 0-5',% 3. 5 1 ',1.'0#" 7 *-50'"#0 02Ď %0 Ǝ'2' þ skate magazines, renaissance artists, tattoo artists etc. I was all over the place. The turning point for me was in high-school, I had an art teacher pull me aside after I had turned in a few half assed homework assignments. He said that he knew I was bullshitting him and that I could really draw but I was being lazy. He gave me a sheet of paper that was about 40x60 inches and said I had to fill the entire sheet with a drawing and my whole year’s grade depended on it. I accepted the challenge and did a color pencil drawing of a Maasai Chief with sunglasses on and honestly it changed my life. I had never experienced a sense of satisfaction or achievement like that before. I felt that spark turn into a flame. Right away I started taking work more serious and have been painting regularly ever since.

When did you first discover tattooing? And which artists first inspired you? I became interested in tattoos at about 14 and got my first one when I was 15. I collected all of the tattoo magazines and started trying to draw in that late 90’s tattoo style, I loved the style but never thought about being a tattooer. When I turned 18 I got a bunch of tattoos and spent a lot of time hanging out at tattoo shops. Being in that environment, watching tattoo artists at work changed my idea of what a career in the arts could be. I had to ask three times but eventually I apprenticed for about a year under a tattooer named Matt Green at Classic Tat2-- ', .* ," č - 12 02#" -Ǝ'!' **7 2 22--',% ', 2001.

What about your time in New York? Who were you hanging around with at the time? My wife Brooke and I moved to Brooklyn in 2008. I got invited to work at a shop called Invisible in LES. 5-0)#" 2 $#5 "'Ǝ#0#,2 2 22-- 1&-.1 ', 0--)*7, from 2008-15 including NYAdorned and ThreeKings. A lot of great memories from each shop and an endless line of people wanting tattoos. Outside of the tattoo shop, my move to NY was heavily influenced by my hopes to show some paintings in world famous NYC galleries. As soon as we arrived I started painting a lot , using the inspiration of being surrounded by good art/artist and turning that into making my own art. I immediately made friends with a group of very talented artists that I’m still close with today. It was and still is an endless inspiration and motivation to see all my friends make next level work consistently.

As a young tattooer I was eager to learn, I was inspired by just about everyone’s work I saw. I was surrounded by some of the greatest tattooers in the world and learned from anyone who would let me watch. The tattoo gods have been very kind and have looked after me this whole journey.

How was life in Brooklyn and what ultimately became the catalyst to move to LA? We had an amazing time living in Brooklyn and I felt like I accomplished what I had set out to do. Worked with some of the best tattooers in the country, got my foot in the door of the art world and was showing work regularly, and had a great group of friends that were all artists/creative people. I feel like I grew up and became an adult during these years. Some of the funnest time of my life. By 2014 Brooke and I both decided we wanted to change things up and started saving some money to move back to CA.

I’ve worked in some really incredible shops in California and New York. I’ve done a lot of traveling over the years doing guest spots around the world.

Our siblings were all having kids that we wanted to be present for their lives. Also, honestly we were over the snow.

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It’s still one of my favorite things to do and I’m still regularly meeting new artists and photographing them in their studio space. I find a lot of happiness and inspiration seeing where artist work. Being invited in to take photos always feels very special and intimate to me.

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Something happened during that visit and I finally saw a new purpose in my photography: photographing artists and their work space. We both realized we were supposed to be working together in some capacity and started planning things immediately. We ended up having a couple split exhibitions and collaborated regularly on projects until she passed in 2020. The support from Genesis and this studio visit gave me all the confidence I needed to approach other artist about doing studio visits and taking their portraits as well.

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Tell me about your studio visit series? When did this start and how has it evolved over the years? Moving to NY started the practice of doing studio visits and taking photos of artists. I had been taking photos since I was pretty young but didn’t have any purpose previously. Within the first few months of living in Brooklyn, I met the artist/Musician Genesis P-Orridge. That was the first studio visit I did and the plan was to take photos of and do paintings of her gold teeth.

How / when did you first meet Raymond Pettibon? And how did your relationship evolve over the multiple studio visits? What was your favorite moment during these visits? I found Raymond Pettibon on Twitter in 2015. We had a couple back and forth interactions but, honestly I made a joke about his account looking like a 10 year old was in charge and he started following me. After I saw him following my account I DM’d him asking if it would be possible to photograph him in the studio sometime. He replied with his studio address telling me to stop by some time. Inside Raymond’s studio I saw an overwhelming amount of sports equipment in every corner of the studio and felt drawn to have Raymond take me through that collection. He lit up and started taking me though his collection of game-used baseball bats, gloves and all kinds of random equipment . The time flew by that day and he invited me back for another visit since there was so much to cover. I sensed right away he was into the documentation of his collection. I ended up at his studio 4-5 times to get all the photos I wanted. Raymond was very supportive and easy to work with. He suggested that I do something with the photos so I’m putting a book out called “Number One Sports” with an intro poem by Raymond. (Hopefully out later this year.)

Your studio visits are all photographic so how and when did your work expand into both drawings and paintings? And can you tell me about the process and how each medium is interconnected? The first studio visit I did in NYC with Genesis P-orridge altered my reality and my future. It was the first time I realized a more true potential of taking photos in artists studios and using them as reference for oil paintings. I’ve done realism painting my 5&-*# *'$# 32 2&'1 $#*2 "'Ǝ#0#,2 ," 5 ,2#" 2- #6.*-0# 2& 2č ě4# *5 71 *-4#" "-',% 12'** *'$# þ * ,"scape paintings, so taking my photos of artist and their studios to use as reference for paintings felt like a natural avenue for me to take. Inspiration is a hell of a thing. When I wasn’t motivated to paint I’d lean heavy into the photography and visa versa. I could be productive even if I wasn’t inspired to work in either one at any moment.

You’ve already had some notable works exhibited and helped to curate group shows so how have you found dabbling in the art world and any future ambitions here? Honestly, I’m just happy to be painting and showing work. It’s my life dream to show my work in galleries and museums, and I’m doing it. I’m just trying to put in work and leave something here when I’m

gone. I try not to force any interactions anymore, I let thing happens more naturally now. If there’s a good connection I’m always willing to explore it. I’ve had stoned thoughts about opening a gallery since I have so many talented friends to fill a program but, right now that’s still a pipe dream haha.

What about your recent exhibition ‘Set Break’ at 2-3 Fair? How did this come about and what was the series of drawings you displayed? “Set Break” was a very special show for me. My first solo show with all ink paintings. The gallery owner Stevie is a good friend of mine and as soon as I saw he opened a gallery I approached him about working together. The term “Set Break” for me is when the Grateful Dead stops playing and the house lights come back up at a show, an untethered 45min break from the music and time to hang out. For me it’s time to find all my friends I came with and see how their show is going. A reunion of friends on a psycho journey. I take film photos of friends at every Dead show I go to, so I pulled mostly from these for this exhibition. There are other works in the show that go beyond Dead shows but, the reoccurring theme is it’s all portraits of friends and family.

Now, you obviously have a strong following when it comes to tattooing and also created a very unique style, can explain how this came about? I have never found one style of tattooing that I wanted to do forever. I kind of just let things grow ," #4-*4# , 230 **7č ě4# & " $#5 "'Ǝ#0#,2 127*#1 in my 20+ years of tattooing. Right now I’m at my most comfortable and happiest place. I pull from a lot of sources. Lately I’ve been tattooing a lot of crude late 70/80s designs. For a couple decades I was trying to make perfect tattoos, it feels good to do designs that are less than perfect on purpose. My tattooing can be whatever I want it to be and it feels good to let it change overtime. Be a nice person that takes chances and you’ll have a long line of clients wanting that magic from you. I know you’re an avid art collector so maybe you can mention your last two favorite acquisitions? I can’t narrow it down to 2!! The last handful of artists I’ve collected work from are Genesis P-Orridge, Sharif Farrag, Chris Suarez, Eric Elms, Dash Snow, Pedro Alejandro Verdin þ " -,-&3#č

Lastly….what’s up with your love of fishing over the years. Is it a break to all of the multitude of creative outlets you’ve got going on? I hav to admit I typically have a camera with me when I’m fishing. I’m very thankful that my dad got us fishing when we were young and made it fun. I fly fish and ocean fish with my brothers regularly. Our favorite time of year is the annual Fall Sierra Nevada trout fishing trip. I’ve found over the years most of my hobbies are creative based so fishing is the ultimate reset for me. No tattoo clients, no paint, no deadlines…just fresh air, cold water and beautiful views.

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1LFN $PDWR ,¶G OLNH WR VWDUW ZLWK \RXU EDFNVWRU\ DQG KRZ \RX EH JDQ PDNLQJ DUW Michael Bala I guess I never really started how every other artist began their, I would say, childhood career. I never picked up an instrument related to art until the end of high school, which was just like a camera. I got into photography DQG GRFXPHQWHG LQ ZD\V LQVSLUHG E\ *UHJRU\ .RQ $OH[ 6RFN DQG :LOOLDP (JJOHWRQ 7KDW ZDV P\ LQWURGXFWLRQ WR DUW HVSHFLDOO\ LQ WKH ¿QH DUW FDWHJRU\ $IWHU KLJK VFKRRO , WRRN DUW FODVVHV LQ FRPPXQLW\ FROOHJH 7KDW LV DOVR ZKHUH P\ SHUVSHFWLYH EHJDQ WR FKDQJH ,W PDGH PH UHDOL]H WKDW it’s beyond the photograph itself, whether you print it out RU VFDQ DQG HGLW WKHP DOO FUD]\ RU KRZHYHU RQH ZRXOG SUHIHU 7KDW¶V ZKHQ , ZDV LQWURGXFHG WR WKH LGHD WKDW \RX can make books from them. You can silkscreen the photographs and do all these monotypes, leading to further pursuing photography. I applied to universities after that. $V , HQWHUHG P\ ¿UVW \HDU DW 8&/$ , WRRN P\ ¿UVW VFXOSture class. I’ve never built things before besides knowing how to cut wood and the simple basis of using a chop saw. I was interested in the mechanics of material from my understanding of photography, where there’s always something about a photograph you can’t touch or access. Most of the time, the materials in the picture, subjects, or objects are almost like the truth or the closest thing to reality. What intrigued me with sculpture is that thinking about sculpture and photography allowed me to access this idea or this notion of making that takes the similarities of what a photograph can’t provide and what VFXOSWXUH FDQ¶W SURYLGH²FUHDWLQJ WKLV VSHFL¿F LPDJHU\ and, using elements still through photography as an idea of framework, and applying it to sculpture. ,V WKHUH D GLIIHUHQW VHQVH RI IUHHGRP \RX IHHO IURP WKH SK\VLFDO QDWXUH RI VFXOSWXUH DV RSSRVHG WR SKR WRJUDSK\" MB: Yeah. It’s the physicality, and this relation through wanting to touch something or seeing something enhances this material, providing truth or evidence because LWV SK\VLFDO SUHVHQFH LV SUHVHQWHG WKURXJK IRUP WH[WXUH HW FHWHUD 7KURXJK SKRWRJUDSKV \RX FDQ WDNH D SLFWXUH of the object you’ve made, and it scales it back, leaving many things behind.

,V WKHUH D UHFXUULQJ PDWHULDO WKDW \RX ZRUN ZLWK" I guess there is a recurrence of material through the idea of found objects, or claiming an object in ways. I’ve always been attracted to found objects based on their past ownership and how it has this association through touch and feel, which is this idea of a gesture that never gets removed. For instance, these here on this sculpture are DOO IRXQG EDQLVWHU UDLOLQJV 7KHUH ZDV WKLV HHULQHVV WR it that I was attracted to and something that I shouldn’t KDYH $W WKH VDPH WLPH , ORYHG KRZ EHDXWLIXO WKH\ HQGHG up being. I think that stride goes back to my upbringing of the house I lived in, never believing in reclaimed objects. (YHU\WKLQJ DOZD\V KDG WR EH EUDQG QHZ 6R LW PLJKW EH this subconscious attraction to like a lot of found objects for me that I now reoccur in many of my sculptures with fabric to used hardwood tiles or a lot of buttons attached WR KDUGZRRG ÀRRULQJV $ SLHFH RI \RXUV FDPH WR PLQG ZKHQ \RX PHQWLRQHG HHULQHVV EHLQJ DQ HOHPHQW WKDW \RX JUDYLWDWH WR ,W¶V HQWLWOHG ³7DOO\´ DQG LW FRXOG EH LQWHUSUHWHG DV D PR PHQW VWXFN LQ WLPH 7KDW ZDV P\ LQWURGXFWLRQ WR EHLQJ DWWUDFWHG WR 7UXPS Lloyd paintings. I wanted to approach painting more sculpturally by recreating a condensated mirror, more so the idea of a condensated bathroom mirror. I did trial and HUURU E\ ¿JXULQJ RXW KRZ WR PDNH D FRQGHQVDWHG PLUURU which I discovered by accident by using mirror spray. It’s mirror spray paint, where you can turn glass into any reÀHFWLYH VXUIDFH 6R , VSUD\HG LW RQ EDFNZDUG ZKLFK , WULHG to wipe, and then behind it was already a mirror because , DOVR VSUD\HG WKH RWKHU VLGH 7KHQ , WXUQHG LW RYHU DV LW dried and was like, “Wait, this looks like a condensated mirror now.” I don’t know where the marks came about, but it was hilarious to always step out of the shower and VHH \RXU RULJLQDO OLNH ¿QJHUSULQW VPXGJHV RQ WKH EDWKroom mirror and a ton of tally marks. I feel like that also VWHPV IURP P\ 2&' DQG MXVW KDYLQJ WKLQJV SHUIHFWHG LQ this sense of repetition and patterns.

$ FROOHFWLRQ RI \RXU ZRUNV ZDV SUHVHQWHG DW WKH /LQH +RWHO LQ /RV $QJHOHV LQ HQWLWOHG 5HG %DOO ZKLFK XQIRUWXQDWHO\ KDG D VKRUW OLIH GXH WR &RYLG ORFN GRZQV &DQ \RX VSHDN WR WKDW H[SHULHQFH DQG ERG\ RI ZRUN" 6R WKDW ZDV OLNH WKH ERG\ RI ZRUN ZLWK WKH WDOO\ PDUNV DQG VPXGJHV 7KHQ WKHUH ZDV DQRWKHU PLUURU ZLWK D JDPH RI tic-tac toe. Which was a condensated mirror painting of tic tac toe games where no one’s, the layer of games that were played on top or like hypothetically played on top. It VKRZHG WKDW QRERG\ ZRQ 6R WKH\ ZHUH DOO ¿OOHG VSDFHV without someone actually winning. ,I \RX ZHUH DQ RQ ORRNHU IURP 6WUHHW 9LHZ WKH ZRUNV FRXOG WDNH RQ D QHZ FRQWH[W $OPRVW IHHOLQJ OLNH VRPHWKLQJ LQVWDOODWLRQ UHODWHG I never really thought about it that way. Like the idea that it lives on its own, and then the eeriness of this room that could be foggy or condensated knowing that the hotel was unoccupied. Or how an idea of the works is living in D VSDFH ZKHUH QR RQH LV WKHUH 7KHUH ZDV GH¿QLWHO\ WKLV HUD ZKHUH , ZDV H[SORULQJ YDULRXV PDWHULDOLWLHV DQG XQGHUVWDQGLQJ 7KHUH ZHUH VSHFL¿F FRQFHSWV WKDW , IHOW OLNH I played around with, which all revolved around knowing that a lot of those things stood still in this kind of distinctive way that you usually wouldn’t see a jump rope being knotted, but still holding a lot of pressure. , VDZ D SLFWXUH RQ \RXU ,QVWDJUDP RI VRPHWKLQJ \RX JLIWHG D IULHQG ,W ORRNHG OLNH D SDSHU WRZHO RU WRLOHW SDSHU KROGHU \RX FUHDWHG XVLQJ D EXQJHH FRUG +DYH \RX FUDIWHG DQ\ RWKHU LGHDV WKDW ZHUH JLIWHG" It’s probably just the paper towel holders. I tried to make larger sculptures from that bungee chord, but I didn’t like WKH LGHD RI WUDQVIRUPLQJ WKHP VR VLJQL¿FDQWO\ ,W PDGH EHWWHU VHQVH IRU VXFK D VPDOO REMHFW $W WKDW WLPH , ZDV kind of messing around and was curious about trying to IUHH]H WKLQJV ,W ZDV GXULQJ WKH WLPH RI WKH PLUURU SDLQWLQJV 7KLV FRUUHVSRQGV WR WU\LQJ WR PDNH WKLQJV VWDQG VWLOO while referring back to photography and still snapshots, IUHH]LQJ WKLV OLNH D VSHFL¿F WLPHIUDPH RU PRPHQW %HVLGHV that, there was another idea that I was supposed to gift to a friend, but I put a pause on it. Because I usually get tired, well, not tired, but I lose the capacity to think about

PDWHULDOV WKDW PXFK 6R , ZRUN RQ D IHZ WKLQJV DW RQFH Work that I can bounce back and forth between. ,W VHHPV OLNH D EDODQFHG ZD\ WR ZRUN ,W FDQ DOORZ PRUH WLPH WR PHGLWDWH RQ VSHFL¿F LGHDV RU KHOS UH¿QH \RXU ZRUN Yeah, I like being around things, whether you’re like making them, touching them, or more so walking by them. 7KHUH¶V WKLV VXEFRQVFLRXV SDUW ZKHUH \RX¶UH WKLQNLQJ about them, enhancing new ideas or changes. Critiques on it that later resurfaces that one can’t think of at that PRPHQW 7KDW¶V KRZ , YLHZ WKDW SURFHVV MXVW OLNH KDYLQJ this scattered mindset. 6RPHWLPHV ,¶OO SLFN XS VRPH KXPRU HPEHGGHG LQ \RXU ZRUNV $UH \RX FXULRXV WR NQRZ LI WKDW¶V D FDOFX ODWHG HOHPHQW RU PRUH RUJDQLF" I feel like it’s more organic, but then also thought out in the VHQVH WKDW LW VWHPV IURP P\ RFG 7KHUH DUH VRPH SDUWV where I would want to make something so clean and almost like it was factory-made in ways. But then there are VRPH WLPHV ZKHQ ¿QLVKHG WKLQJV ORRN WRR FOHDQ DQG LW feels more like a design aesthetic, which I try to revert from. I guess the humor part is when I feel conscious about using it to dissect the form from its perfectionist presentation. I found it funny to break this idea of gesture through sculpture. $Q H[DPSOH ZDV WKLV SLHFH IURP RU ¶ ZKHUH OLPH is stapled to the mesh. It was more so this decision, I feel like humor partakes into the idea also of improvisation ZKHUH PRUH VR WKLV GHFLVLRQ WR DGG D OLPH ZDV WR ¿OO NLQG of the space that it left with like the stapler, which I felt like shoving a piece of lime in there. I don’t know. I just felt like it would be hilarious to kind of see a lime. In its state, knowing that it feels and looks like a lime, it’s also not decomposing. It’s this idea of being stuck in time that I feel like I’ve always been attracted to.

$W ZKLFK SRLQW GR \RX ¿QG \RXUVHOI DEOH WR VWHS DZD\ IURP D SLHFH RU GHHP LW ¿QLVKHG" I guess more so it’s intuition, and that refers back to that question about the humor part embedded in my work where there are some times when things are fully made, DQG WKH\¶UH WRR SHUIHFW 7KHUH¶V DOZD\V WKH GHFLVLRQ WR NQRZ ZKHQ VRPHWKLQJ¶V ¿QLVKHG LV WR PDNH VRPHWKLQJ that is a contrasting gesture, whether it’s doing something poorly made that’s being attached to something that’s H[TXLVLWHO\ PDGH DQG ZHOO UH¿QHG :KHUH , WKLQN WKRVH JHVWXUHV GLFWDWH LI VRPH WKLQJV DUH ¿QLVKHG RU QRW $QG it’s more about just seeing and encountering the objects’ presentation. In undergrad, a week before crit, a profesVRU PHQWLRQHG KRZ LI \RX NQRZ H[DFWO\ ZKDW \RX¶UH JRLQJ WR PDNH IRU FULW GRQ¶W ERWKHU EULQJLQJ LW WR FODVV 7KHQ KH ZHQW RQ WDONLQJ DERXW KRZ KH ZDQWHG XV WR H[SORUH DQG make things that fall under the category of unfamiliarity, where you can sort of encounter and make things based on intuition while learning other materials. &RXOG \RX VSHDN WR VRPH RI WKH WKHPDWLFV LQ \RXU QHZ ZRUNV" I propose making 24 of these works with my new body RI ZRUN (DFK FORFN ZLOO WKHQ EH VHW WR HDFK WLPH ]RQH RI the world, and I would want all 24 clocks to be cut in half DQG H[LVW DQG VWD\ LQ WKH 6WDWHV DQG WKHQ LQ (XURSH VR WKDW VRPH RI WKH WLPH ]RQHV FDQ DOVR IDOO LQWR WKHLU RULJLQDO time. /LNH WKH QDWXUDO VHWWLQJ ¿QGLQJ LWV ZD\ EDFN KRPH" <HV H[DFWO\ $FWXDOO\ , IHHO OLNH , QHYHU UHDOO\ WHOO DQ\RQH these, but a lot of the works, like the padded envelope or the baseboards, are all segments of this idea of building WKLV JLDQW KRXVH 7KH\¶UH DOO VXSSRVHG WR EH WKLV SUHGLFWed room and be associated with what could be in that URRP RU KRZ WKDW URRP LV IUDPHG 6R HYHQWXDOO\ PDNLQJ a ton of these sculptures, whether it’s like hand railings WR WKH ÀRRUERDUGV WR WKH EDVHERDUGV DQG WKHQ WR HYHQ PD\EH FRRN UDFNV , ZRXOG ZDQW WKHP WR H[LVW NLQG RI RU ODWHU WKHQ ¿QG WKHLU RZQ KRPH ZKHUH \RX FDQ PDVK WKHP all up and create this ideal setting of what could be the room of a house. &DQ ZH VHH KRZ \RX VSHQG \RXU VWXGLR GD\V"

I usually go to the studio after work and get there around seven. I’ll eat a small dinner and then look around at the ZRUNV ,¶YH VWDUWHG 7KHQ , WHQG WR JUDYLWDWH WRZDUGV D VSHFL¿F SLHFH WKDW , ZDQW WR VWDUW EDVHG RQ WKH GHFLVLRQ RI ZKDW WR DGG QH[W DQG WKDW LV PRUH LQ IDYRU RI P\ PRRG and how energetic I feel. I’ll try and tackle complicated VWXII ¿UVW E\ GULOOLQJ KROHV WKDW DUH VSHFL¿FDOO\ WZR PLOlimeters deep. Or there are days when I’ll take leather scraps and do like a dye cut. But yeah, I tend to go to the studio after work from seven to no later than one in the PRUQLQJ , JR WR P\ VWXGLR IURP 0RQGD\ WR 7KXUVGD\ , often make Fridays my days off, and on those days, I’m PRUH VR UHOD[HG , GR WKH PRUH LQWHQVH HUUDQGV WKDW XVXally involve going to a metal supply store, leather warehouse, or this marble scrapyard, many of which are in 9HQWXUD 7KDW ZDV PDLQO\ P\ GD\V RII EHFDXVH LW ZDV DOPRVW D WZR KRXU GULYH 6R WKDW¶V XVXDOO\ MXVW WKH VFKHGule. It’s not strict, but it’s got some structure to it.

7R ZKDW HIIHFW GRHV VWUXFWXUH KDYH RQ \RXU SUDFWLFH" No structure wouldn’t inform my practice. By creating a system, since everything falls under the idea of making things at high precision, it is necessary to have the strucWXUH WR PD[LPL]H WKH WLPH SUHVHQWHG LQ WKH VWXGLR DV RSposed to being entirely intuitive and kind of just throwing things or drawing holes and screwing things to other items and throwing paint on there. I need to have this segregated time one night for this, the second night is for prepping or painting, and then the day off is to see what it turns out to be after dry time. Before, I had a little structure. I would go to the studio before work, be there for an hour, DQG WKHQ OHDYH 7KDW ZDV ZKHQ , GLGQ¶W UHDOO\ XQGHUVWDQG the structure, and it messed with how I made things. It created a lot of doubt because I thought I couldn’t allow myself to take breaks, and it was more so this idea of making, making, making. It led to this idea that whatever I make will be good because I’m always here and surrounded by work all the time. But the best way of thinking is to separate yourself from the work sometimes. Once that clicked, I ended up being happier, and I felt like I was thinking with a refreshed mind, formed new perspectives, \RX¶UH PRUH HQHUJL]HG HW FHWHUD

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7RWDOO\ , PHDQ WKDW¶V ZK\ , IHOW OLNH , QHHGHG WR UHDOO\ JR KDUG with the graff book before before moving on because it’s not right to start trying to do other things when I need to pay homDJH WR WKH EHJLQQLQJ , JRW LQWR WDNLQJ SLFWXUHV IURP JUDI¿WL LQLWLDOO\ IURP EHLQJ RXW ERPELQJ ZLWK 6FKXEHUW UHVW LQ SHDFH I was taking pictures on cell phones, then he encouraged me to get a camera. I put it off for like two years and then move moved WR 1HZ <RUN DQG ¿QDOO\ OLVWHG DQG JRW D FDPHUD ,QLWLDOO\ DOO , ZDV SKRWRJUDSKLQJ ZDV JUDI¿WL EXW WKHQ JRLQJ GRZQ WKH UDEELW KROH I started becoming interested in photographing just everything. 6KLW WKDW , ZRXOGQ¶W HYHQ KDYH WKRXJKW DERXW LI ,¶G QHYHU JRWWHQ D camera, you know, just to see what it would look like. -XVW VKRRWLQJ WKH OLIHVW\OH RI JUDI¿WL" estly, making this shit with you showed me how important the distribution and networking aspect is more than anything. ,W ZDV D QHZ H[SHULHQFH IRU PH DV ZHOO LQ D ORW RI ZD\V , JDYH \RX D ORW RI IUHHGRP ZLWK GHVLJQ ZKLFK LV VRPH WKLQJ , XVXDOO\ GR QRW GR <RX SUHWW\ PXFK GLG WKH ZKROH VKLW 7KH GHVLJQ ZDV DQ H[WHQVLRQ RI \RXU ZRUN VR , ZDV FRRO ZLWK LW«\RX KDG D YLVLRQ ,I , GLGQ¶W OLNH LW , ZRXOG EH FRVLJQLQJ LW 5$% $UWV LV D QHZ SURMHFW IRU PH DQG WKLV ERRN KHOSHG PH XQGHUVWDQG ZKDW H[DFWO\ LW LV DQ RSSRUWXQLW\ WR PDNH SURGXFWV ZLWK SHRSOH , UHVSHFW OLNH \RXUVHOI Right! I think that’s powerful too, because it’s like you give people the platform to do that and it’s not connected to all this noise of other shit or other opinions. It’s just straight natural. (YHQ LQ WKH EHJJLQJ WKHUH ZDV WKH FRQYHUVDWLRQ DURXQG ZRUNLQJ ZLWK &DQDU\ RQ LW :KLFK PDGH VHQVH DW WKH WLPH WR GR ZLWK 9LUJLO«EXW QRZ ZLWK KLP EHLQJ JRQH LW MXVW GLGQ¶W PDNH DQ\ VHQVH 6R LW MXVW VHHPHG OLNH WKH PRYH WR VWDUW WKLV LQVWHDG

<HDK EXW WKHQ MXVW HYHU\WKLQJ LQ JHQHUDO *RLQJ WR SODFHV , would never go without a camera like Midtown. Why would I go to Midtown and be in the scene with business people, you know? But it’s just the curiosity of getting that camera and then just that rabbit hole started. I just kept shooting, I kept developLQJ WKH VNLOO RI VKRRWLQJ DQG WKHQ WXUQHG EDFN WR VKRRWLQJ JUDI¿WL :KHQ , FDPH EDFN WR VKRRWLQJ JUDI¿WL QRZ , FRXOG YLHZ GRFXmenting as a lifestyle…so much goes in to it it’s more than just the work. ,W¶V RXU OLIH ,W¶V WKH OLIH WKDW ZH OLYH 7KHUH¶V VR PDQ\ HOH PHQWV WR LW ,W¶V VHHLQJ WKDW FRPPRQ WKUHDG ZH DOO NQRZ DV JUDI¿WL ZULWHUV /LNH WKLV SLFWXUH RI D IXFNLQJ '65 VWDQGLQJ LQ IURQW RI D IXFNLQJ ELJ UDFN RI SDLQW«WKDW KLWV \RX D FHU WDLQ ZD\ \RX NQRZ" ,W¶V OLNH WKH VPHOO RI IXFNLQJ LQN /LNH DOO WKHVH GLIIHUHQW OLWWOH VKLWV , DOVR FRQQHFWHG WR WKH IDFW WKDW \RX ZHUH PDNLQJ ]LQHV 7KDW¶V P\ ZKROH VKLW SURGXFLQJ REMHFWV DQG SXWWLQJ WKHP RXW LQWR WKH ZRUOG , UHVSHFW WKDW \RX KDG WKH LQLWLDWLYH WR GR VRPHWKLQJ RQ \RXU RZQ DQG IXFNLQJ SXW LW RXW WKHUH +RQHVWO\ PDNLQJ WKH ]LQHV DQG DOO WKDW ZDV MXVW WUDLQLQJ IRU WKLV ERRN 7KH ERRN LV EDVLFDOO\ D KXJH ]LQH LW¶V VFUDSV RI GUDZLQJV and tags and collected items. It’s not just throwing a photograph

on a page and moving on, you. I developed that process PDNLQJ WKHVH ORZ EXGJHW ]LQHV WKDW , ZRXOG MXVW VHOO WR WKH homies. ([DFWO\«WKH ZKROH SURMHFW ZDV LPSRUWDQW WR SXW LW LQ QHZ SHUVSHFWLYH 5HOHDVLQJ LW D SURSHU JDOOHU\ ZLWK HY HU\WKLQJ VHW XS LQ WKH ZD\ LW QHHGHG WR EH Right. It changes the perception, you know. It’s not just like, some some little shit on the street. 7KH VKRZ ZDV YHU\ LPSRUWDQW WR PDNH VXUH LW GLGQ¶W IHHO OLNH VRPH ;HUR[ VKLW 0RVW JUDI¿WL ZULWHUV GRQ¶W KDYH WKH EDQGZLGWK LW VHHPV OLNH WR SXVK WKH SUHVHQWDWLRQ WR WKH OHYHO LW QHHGV WR EH )RU VXUH 6HWWLQJ WKH ZKROH VKRZ XS ZDV D ELJ GHDO WR PH *HWWLQJ WKH JDWH IURP $'(.«MXVW NQRZLQJ , KDG WKH WUXVW RI everyone in the book I wanted to make it right. 3UHVHQWDWLRQ LV LPSRUWDQW , PHDQ , JHW LW <RX KDYH VRPH KHDY\ SHRSOH LQ WKHUH ,¶P «,¶P IXFNLQJ ZKDFN /DXJKV , ZDV D ERPEHU DQG , ORYHG ZKDW , GLG EXW \RX JRW SHRSOH OLNH -$:6 ($6< DQG IXFNLQJ -26+ LQ KHUH«WKH\ ZHUH IXFNLQJ NLQJV 5LJKW /LVWHQ WKDW¶V WKH ZKROH VKLW :KHQ , ¿UVW FDPH WR YLVLW New York in 2014, I was out one night randomly tagging ZLWK +281' DQG VRPH JX\ SXOOV XS KH¶V OLNH ³/HW PH VHH the can.” I had no idea who he was…we were hesitant to JLYH KLP D FDQ REYLRXVO\ EXW ZKHQ ZH GLG«ERRP ($6< <RX ZHUH OLNH ³:RRRRRRRZ ´ Yea then we stayed out bombing with him for the rest of the QLJKW +281' NHSW LQ FRQWDFW ZLWK KLP DIWHU WKDW QLJKW VR when I was getting serious about the book we hit him up. )XFN \HDK WKDW¶V WKH VKLW \RX NQRZ ,W¶V IXQQ\ , JDYH LW WR -HEELD DQG KH DVNHG PH LI WKH SKRWRV ZHUH IURP WKH HLJKWLHV«, ZDV OLNH QR LWV ULJKW QRZ«KH VDLG ³ , ORYH WKDW , ORRN WKURXJK LW DQG , KDYH QR LGHD ZKR DQ\ERG\ LV ´ , WKLQN SHRSOH QHHG WKDW QR VRFLDO PHGLD EXOOVKLW«ZH JRW D FRXSOH NQRZQ SHRSOH WKDW DUH K\SHG EH\RQG RXU FRPPXQLW\ EXW WKDW¶V LQHGLEOH Y$QG WKDW ZDV WKH LGHD DQG FRPPRQ WKUHDG WKURXJKRXW the book. I wanted it to be a snapshot of our time…but in 20 years you could open and see the same shit was going on…same traditions…regardless of time. ([DFWO\ OLNH«LW IRFXVHV RQ WKH ERPEHUV 3HRSOH RXW VLGH RI WKLV VKLW GRQ¶W JHW LW«EXW WKHUH¶V D GLIIHUHQFH 7KLV LVQ¶W OLNH SUHWW\ PXUDO VKLW &LW\ ERPELQJ LV D GLI IHUHQW WKLQJ«WKH\¶UH OLNH WKH VROGLHUV RI JUDI¿WL 7KDW¶V ZKDW , DOZD\V JUDYLWDWHG WRZDUGV«ERPEHUV IURP &$3 SHRSOH RQ WKDW WLS 7KH NLGV LQ %DUN DW 7KH 0RRQ KDYH EHHQ LQ WKLV ZULWLQJ IRU RYHU \HDUV

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07 +RZ :H +HJHPRQ\ +RZ¶G \RX ODQG RQ WKDW WLWOH" PH: I’m in grad school right now and I’m a critical cultural theories scholar, so I’ve recently been LQWURGXFHG WR D ORW RI WKHRU\ OLWHUDWXUH In general, I feel like we talk about how our culture, art, and society is affected by power dynamics. 7KLV LQÀXHQFHV KRZ ZH QDYLJDWH RXU OLIH GD\ WR GD\ 2QH RI WKH WKHRULVWV WKDW , ZDV LQVSLUHG E\ ZDV $QWRQLR *UDPVFL ZKR FRQFHSWXDOL]HG ³FXOWXUDO KHJHPRQ\ ´ :LWKLQ WKLV KH H[SODLQV D SKHQRPHQRQ ZKHUH GRPLQDQW JURXSV LQÀXHQFH DQG PDQLSXODWH FXOWXUH LQ VRFLHW\ ,Q WXUQ D ORW RI individuals follow a certain status quo and create widely accepted norms. 7KRVH QRUPV DUH RXU URXWLQH DQG RXU FXOWXUDO OLIHVW\OH WKDW LV EDVHG RQ SRZHU G\QDPLFV DQG WKH VWDWXV TXR DQG KRZ ZH SHUIRUP XQGHU WKH LQÀXHQFH RI SRZHU I thought that concept (cultural hegemony) was really interesting and so I thought of it in terms RI P\ DUW SUDFWLFH 6RPHWKLQJ WKDW ,¶YH H[SHULHQFHG LV WKDW LQ ¿QH DUW SHRSOH H[SHFW P\ ZRUN WR EH LQVWDOOHG LQ FHUWDLQ ZD\V ,W QHHGV WR EH RQ WKH ZDOO RU LW QHHGV WR EH RQ WKH ÀRRU 7KH\ VD\ ³<RX QHHG WR GHFLGH ´ 2U OLNH ³WKLQJV QHHG WR VLW FHQWHUHG RQ WKH ÀRRU´ RU ³LQVWDOOHG RQ WKH ZDOO´ WR IXQFWLRQ DV D SLHFH WR JD]H DW DQG OLNH QRW WR WRXFK LW $QG LW¶V OLNH VRPH OX[XU\ WKLQJ WKDW ZH FDQ¶W UHDOO\ HQJDJH ZLWK RWKHU WKDQ ZLWK RXU H\HV $QG VR , just thought that was so contradictory to my artwork. I thought it was bullshit that our institutions were telling me that I had to decide how I wanna install my work in a way that felt static. Like, it QHHGHG WR SOD\ D PRQRJDPRXV UROH HVVHQWLDOO\ /LNH ³\RX KDYH WR HLWKHU SXW LW RQ WKH ÀRRU RU RQ WKH ZDOO ´ <RX QHHG WR GHFLGH LW KDV WR EH RQH RI WKRVH WZR <RX FDQ¶W KDYH ERWK 7KDW IHOW YHU\ culturally hegemonic to me. In response, I was like, why the fuck not? 6R LV WKDW WKH GHFLGLQJ IDFWRU EHKLQG WKH RQH SLHFH ZKHUH OLNH WKH JX\ LV LQ WKH DQJOH RI WKH ZDOO" %HWZHHQ FRUQHUV <HDK«7KDW SLHFH LV FDOOHG +RZ WR %HQG 7KDW RQH , PDGH ZLWK WKH SXUSRVH RI KDYLQJ YDULRXV GLIIHUHQW IXQFWLRQDOLWLHV 7KH ZKROH SXUSRVH RI PH PDNLQJ WKDW UXJ ZDV WR VKRZ that an artwork can have many different functionalities. 5LJKW ULJKW +ROG RQ , ZDQW WR VKRZ \RX WKLV SLFWXUH VKRZV SLFWXUH RI :+<"! I mean the rugs in general can have so many different functionalities in terms of its installation. It FRXOG EH RQ WKH ÀRRU LW FRXOG EH OLNH KDOI RQ WKH ZDOO KDOI RQ WKH ÀRRU LW FRXOG EH XSVLGH GRZQ RQ a wall. :KHQ , PDGH WKDW SLHFH DQG ZKHQ , PDGH +RZ WR %HQG , FUHDWHG WKRVH ZLWK WKH LGHD LQ PLQG WKDW , ZDQWHG WKHP WR IXQFWLRQ LQ VR PDQ\ GLIIHUHQW ZD\V $QG VR , WKLQN WKDW¶V DQ DVSHFW RI KHJHPRQ\ WKDW LQVSLUHG WKH WLWOH RI P\ VKRZ ,W¶V FDOOHG +RZ :H +HJHPRQ\ EHFDXVH ,¶P DVNLQJ P\VHOI +RZ GR ZH DSSURDFK WKH FRQFHSW RI KHJHPRQ\ DV D VRFLHW\ DQG PRUH LPSRUWDQWO\ LQ DUW" +RZ can those two have a conversation? When I’m making a piece like that and I’m installing it on the wall and there’s a person who’s observing it or a consumer of art who’s looking at it, they have agency in deciding how they wanna perceive it and how they think that that piece of art can look in different forms. I mean, that’s just one aspect of the show, there’s so many different societal aspects of cultural KHJHPRQ\ WKDW DUH DOVR LQÀXHQFHG LQ WKH ZRUN EH\RQG ³DUW´ DQG LWV LQVWDOODWLRQ , UHDG LQ DQRWKHU LQWHUYLHZ ZKHUH \RX ZHUH VD\LQJ EDVHG RII \RXU FRQFHSW RI UXJV WKH\ DUH PHDQW WR EH VTXDUH RU LQ WKHVH WUDGLWLRQDO VKDSHV DQG \RX KDG WURXEOH DFWXDOO\ VWDUWLQJ WR GR DEVWUDFW YHUVLRQV RI LW $QG VR ZKHQ , VHH WKDW , VHH WKH WLWOH EHLQJ NLQG RI WKLV IRUP RI

UHEHOOLRQ IRU \RX WR EH OLNH \R WXIWLQJ KDV EHHQ D MRXUQH\ IRU PH DOUHDG\ KHUH¶V D GLIIHUHQW YHUVLRQ RI LW <HDK , WKLQN LW¶V DOVR UHVLVWLQJ WKH VWDWXV TXR RI ZKDW ZH VHH UXJV RU WXIWLQJ WR EH 6XFK DV FLUFXODU REMHFWV RU VTXDUH UHFWDQJXODU SLHFHV RQ WKH ÀRRU WKDW NLQG RI OD\ WKHUH DQG DUH D YHU\ VWDWLF VKDSH I think that my work is resistant to that and it borrows very abstract forms that are obviously very UHVLVWDQW WR WKH FRPPHUFLDOL]DWLRQ DQG LQGXVWU\ RI FDUSHW PDNLQJ LQ JHQHUDO 'H¿QLWHO\ <HDK 6R DUH \RX LQ WXUQ OLNH DQ DQRPDO\ LQ WKH LQGXVWU\" I’d hate to say that. I don’t know. I don’t hate the word anomaly, but I hate referring to myself as DQ DQRPDO\ , WKLQN WKDW ,¶P MXVW WDNLQJ WKH SUDFWLFH DQG ,¶P VRUW RI H[SORULQJ LW DQG H[SHULPHQWLQJ with it in my own way. I think there are so many other tufters that are doing very abstract shit, and it’s cool. <RX GRQ¶W GR DV PDQ\ FRPPLVVLRQV DQ\PRUH ZKDW PDGH \RX WUDQVLWLRQ DZD\ IURP DUWLVW IRU KLUH WR DUWLVW" I mean, I have no problem with producing because that’s where people make the most money. , VWDUWHG GRLQJ WKDW ZKHQ , ¿UVW VWDUWHG WXIWLQJ , PDGH FDUWRRQ FKDUDFWHUV IRU P\ IULHQGV DQG LI people wanted a rug, I’d make them something. But then, I started to make my own work and it VWDUWHG JHWWLQJ DWWHQWLRQ DQG , MXVW HQMR\HG FUHDWLQJ ZRUN EDVHG RQ P\ RZQ FRQFHSWV 7KH IDFW that people enjoyed the work I was making based on my own choices made me feel empowered. I feel like the industry of tufting or the craft of tufting is so saturated with people who do produce commissioned outsourced designs. You can just manufacture the work from commercial tufters yourself. You don’t need someone like me to do that for you because I feel like if you get it done commercially, they would do a better job than me anyways. If somebody wanted a special piece and wanted to commission something that felt genuine to their story and they had a narrative in mind that they felt like I could depict for them in the best way, I would be stoked to do that. I just GRQ¶W WKLQN WKDW , ZRXOG HYHU EH LQWHUHVWHG LQ D SURGXFWLRQ RI ZRUN $W OHDVW QRW ULJKW QRZ ,W NLQG RI IHHOV OLNH WDWWRR DUWLVWV LQ D ZD\ ZKHUH \RX FDQ JR WR VRPHRQH ZKR FRXOG GR ÀDVK RU ZKDWHYHU \RX ZDQW RU \RX FDQ JR WR VRPHERG\ ZKR¶V OLNH WKLV LV P\ VW\OH Yeah. For sure. I mean, each person has a different type of rug making style, there’s so many tufters out there that make cool shit. 'R \RX ¿QG \RXUVHOI ORRNLQJ WR WKH OHIW DQG WKH ULJKW RU GR \RX VWHHU FOHDU RI ORRNLQJ DW RWKHU SHRSOH¶V ZRUN" No, I like looking, I like looking at what people are making, all the time. I do. I think that’s motivatLQJ IRU PH $QG , WKLQN WKDW WXIWLQJ LV VXFK D FUDIW\ WKLQJ , IHHO OLNH D QHJDWLYH DVSHFW RI WKH SUDFWLFH LV WKDW WKH ZD\ WKDW LW NLQG RI FDPH IRUWK LQ LWV UHQDLVVDQFH )RU H[DPSOH SHRSOH PDNLQJ UXJV RI VD\ D )UDQN 2FHDQ DOEXP RU 7\OHU WKH &UHDWRU SRUWUDLW± WKHUH DUH VR PDQ\ SHRSOH WXIWLQJ 3LNDFKX *RNX DQG DOO RI WKHVH WKLQJV 7KH\ DUH FKXUQLQJ WKHP RXW FRPPHUFLDOO\ DQG , WKLQN WKDW¶V D JUHDW thing, but I also think that there should be more ways that individuals take advantage of tufting in D PRUH H[SUHVVLRQLVW ¿QH DUW SUDFWLFH , DP VWDUWLQJ WR VHH WKDW KDSSHQ 6R GR \RX VWHHU FOHDU RI WKDW VWXII RU HPEUDFH LW I think it’s fucking dope actually. It’s funny and cool and I think that a lot of people who tuft love WR PDNH ERRWOHJ VKLW \RX NQRZ" 7KH\¶OO PDNH OLNH D IXFNLQJ 9LUJLO $EORK UXJ EHFDXVH WKH\ FDQ¶W DIIRUG DQ DFWXDO 2)) :+,7( UXJ DQG WKH\¶OO PDNH LW IRU WKHPVHOYHV DQG SXW LW LQ WKHLU URRP $QG ,¶P OLNH PRUH SRZHU WR \RX GXGH 3HRSOH FDQ¶W UHDOO\ DIIRUG OX[XU\ LWHPV $QG , WKLQN WKDW LW¶V UHDOO\ FRRO WKDW WKH SUDFWLFH VRUW RI DOORZV LQGLYLGXDOV WR FUHDWH WKHLU RZQ YHUVLRQ RI WKHVH OX[XU\ SURGXFWV

that they adore and just put it in their own home or sell it to other people. I mean, we see that everywhere, don’t we? 5LJKW ULJKW $QG IXFN LW , KDG D IULHQG ZKR VWDUWHG D EUDQG FDOOHG %RRWOHJ $QG KH¶V IURP +DUOHP , FDPH LQWR KLV RI¿FH DQG , ZDV OLNH ³\R GLG )HQGL PDNH D FKDLU"´ +H ZDV OLNH QDK EXW , WKRXJKW WKH\ VKRXOG $QG VR , PDGH WKLV and he like… put Fendi on it? <HDK +H KDG )HQGL DOO RYHU SULQW +HOO \HDK %UDQGLQJ LV VR IXQQ\ /X[XU\ EUDQGLQJ HVSHFLDOO\« 3HRSOH FDQ GR WKDW $QG , WKLQN WKDW LW¶V DZHVRPH DQG , ZRXOG GR LW WRR LI , ZDV WKDW LQYHVWHG LQ LW 7KDW¶V VR VLFN :KHQ , ¿UVW KHDUG DERXW \RX \RX ZHUH DQ $ 5 Embarrassing. %XW OLNH WKDW¶V D SRVLWLRQ WKDW SHRSOH FRQVLGHU WR EH DQ DUWLVW KHOSHU %XW QRZ \RX¶YH WUDQ VLWLRQHG WR DUWLVWV :KDW GR \RX IHHO VSDUNHG WKDW IRU \RX" $QG WKHQ DOVR KRZ GR \RX IHHO GRLQJ WKDW KHOSHG \RX" Yeah. I feel like I’ve never wanted to work for an employer. I’ve always wanted to work for myself, obviously, we all do. I think that the dream for every person is to work for themselves and not for DQ HPSOR\HU DQG IRU DQ LQGLYLGXDO WKDW NLQG RI GLFWDWHV WKHLU GD\ WR GD\ $QG VR QDWXUDOO\ , ORYH being an artist and working for myself and having agency with the work that I make and the art that I make. , GR WKLQN WKDW EHLQJ DQ $ 5 DQG ZRUNLQJ LQ WKH PXVLF LQGXVWU\ KHOSHG PH LQ D ORW RI ZD\V , WKLQN LW KHOSHG ZLWK P\ GLVFLSOLQH DQG DFWXDOO\ VWD\LQJ RUJDQL]HG DV DQ DUWLVW , IHHO OLNH RIWHQWLPHV SHRSOH MXVW VKLW RXW DUW DQG GRQ¶W DFWXDOO\ WKLQN DERXW WKH VWUXFWXUH RI WKH SUDFWLFH $QG WKH UHODWLRQVKLS EHFRPHV ZLWK WKH DUW LQGXVWU\ DQG WKH DUW PDUNHW , IHHO OLNH EHLQJ DQ $ 5 DQG UHSUHVHQWLQJ DUWLVWV and working with artists to get things done in terms of music making was very helpful for me in WKH SURIHVVLRQDO QRQ FUHDWLYH DVSHFW RI EHLQJ DQ DUWLVW $QG , IHHO OLNH WKDW¶V UHDOO\ LPSRUWDQW HVSHFLDOO\ DV VRPHRQH ZKR GLGQ¶W JR WR DUW VFKRRO ,¶P FRPSOHWHO\ VHOI WDXJKW $QG HYHU\WKLQJ WKDW I’ve learned has been based on trial and error. Working with musicians and being surrounded E\ RWKHU DUWLVWV RXWVLGH RI WKH ¿QH DUW ZRUOG LV PRWLYDWLQJ DQG LQVSLULQJ IRU PH ,W LQVSLUHV PH WR make certain art because, again, all of my art is about culture. It’s about music, it’s about internet UHIHUHQFHV WKHUH¶V SROLWLFDO UHIHUHQFHV WKHUH¶V DUW UHIHUHQFHV WKHUH¶V PHPH FXOWXUH 7KHUH DUH VR PDQ\ WKLQJV WKDW DUH HPEHGGHG LQ P\ ZRUN LQVSLUHG E\ ZKDW , GR HYHU\ VLQJOH GD\ $QG P\ journey from an adolescent to now. Or even before that! <HDK $QRWKHU TXHVWLRQ , KDG LV , VHH D ORW RI FXOWXUDO IUDPHZRUN LQ \RXU ZRUN $QG LW¶V NLQG RI LQ UHVSRQVH WR WKLQJV 7KHUH¶V IUHH]H IUDPHV RI FHUWDLQ WLPHV :KDW PDNHV \RX JUDYLWDWH WR WKDW DV RSSRVHG WR DOEXP FRYHUV DQG SRS DQLPDWLRQV" I mean, I am so obsessed with the internet. We talked about this last week when I was in New York. I love internet discourse. I know that sounds so lame and so stupid. ,¶P DOZD\V OXUNLQJ RQ 7ZLWWHU ,QVWDJUDP 5HGGLW DQG UHDGLQJ WKRVH WKLQJV DQG ODXJKLQJ EHFDXVH

QRWKLQJ UHDOO\ PDNHV PH ODXJK LQ WKLV ZRUOG RWKHU WKDQ VWXSLG VKLW , ¿QG RQ WKH LQWHUQHW , '0 P\ IULHQGV WKH VWXSLG VKLW WKDW , ¿QG RQ WKH LQWHUQHW FRQVWDQWO\ $QG D ORW RI WLPHV WKH\ GRQ¶W UHVSRQG EDFN WR PH , IHHO OLNH WKH DUW LV MXVW NLQG RI OLNH PH '0LQJ P\VHOI DQG MXVW VDYLQJ WKH WKLQJV WKDW , ¿QG KLODULRXV DQG KDYLQJ D FRQYHUVDWLRQ ZLWK P\VHOI WKURXJK P\ DUW &X] VRPHWLPHV SHRSOH GRQ¶W really want to engage with the spamming of it all. When I see a funny meme, I’m like, screenshot! and then I throw that onto the rug. But there’s also just really funny and ironic narratives that I tell in my artwork outside of those memes but support the themes in storytelling. ,W¶V OLNH D PHQWDO PDS <HDK ([DFWO\ /LNH WKH UXJ %($7 83 WKDW¶V D FROODJH VXUURXQGLQJ DQ LPDJH RI 0XKDPPDG $OL DQG .HQ 1RUWRQ ER[LQJ 7KDW SLHFH ZDV EDVHG RQ WKH FRQFHSW RI PHGLD IUDPLQJ DQG DJHQGD VHWWLQJ ,W H[SODLQV KRZ LQGLYLGXDOV DUH PDQLSXODWHG LQWR EHOLHYLQJ FHUWDLQ WKLQJV LQ WKH QHZV PHGLD RU WKH PDLQVWUHDP PHGLD EDVHG RQ WKH FRUSRUDWH RU SROLWLFDO DJHQGD RI WKH 8 6 ,Q WKDW UXJ , KDYH VR many different random references that are both resistant and standard when it comes to the news PHGLD , KDYH KLV ¿UVW ¿UVW 7UXWK 6RFLDO SRVW 7UXPS HYHU GUDIWHG DQG D -HIIUH\ (SVWHLQ ERRN LQ WKHUH FX] WKHUH ZHUH MXVW OLNH VR PDQ\ FRQVSLUDF\ WKHRULHV WKDW KDG FRQVXPHG PH WKURXJK &29,' WKDW LQÀXHQFHG D ORW RI LQWHUQHW GLVFRXUVH DV RI ODWH , VSHQW KRXUV LQ WKDW VKLW , ZDV RYHU KHUH OLNH RK P\ JRG 3L]]D JDWH DOO WKDW VKLW , IHHO OLNH , OLVWHQHG WR KRXUV RI -HII (SVWHLQ VKLW ZKLFK ZDV VR IXQQ\ , OLVWHQHG WR WKH ZKROH *KLVODQH 0D[ZHOO WULDO RQ 7UXH $QRQ 2K P\ *RG I was obsessed! But that’s like the type of shit that I like to put into my rugs because I feel like it tells a story. I feel a lot of artists like to document the contemporary day and age that we’re living LQ , WKLQN WKDW LW¶V QLFH WR GRFXPHQW WKDW DQG WHOO D VWRU\ RI RXU H[SHULHQFH OLYLQJ LQ WKDW WLPH EXW also it’s like really fucking funny. I think that a lot of my art is funny because I like to laugh and I think that art should make you laugh sometimes. , SHUVRQDOO\ WKLQN \RX¶UH D IXQQ\ KXPDQ ODXJKV! 7KDQN \RX <HDK WKDW URFNV %XW \RX NQRZ ZKDW , PHDQ" , IHHO OLNH LQ ¿QH DUW ZH WDNH VKLW VR VHULRXVO\ DQG , GR WKLQN WKDW LV D ELJ SRLQW LQ PDNLQJ ZRUN , EHlieve artists should push beyond conceptual and performance art communicated literally through VXIIHULQJ DQG H[SORLWDWLRQ $UW FUHDWHG FDQ LQGHHG EH OLJKWKHDUWHG DQG IXQQ\ ZKLOH VWLOO LQYRNLQJ critical thought. I think that’s really important. I think we see that in music too. In music you see SHRSOH PDNLQJ YHU\ VHULRXV DQG DZHVRPH PXVLF $QG ZH DOVR VHH VKLW OLNH± /LNH .DQ\H EHLQJ OLNH ³VWLFN P\ ¿VW LQ KHU OLNH D FLYLO ULJKWV VLJQ ´ <XS H[DFWO\ (YHQ WKH ³SRRSLW\ VFRRS´ WUDFN $OH[ * PDGH DQ HQWLUH DOEXP DERXW KLJKHU SRZHU DQG -HVXV ZKHQ WKH JX\ , GRXEW LV HYHQ UHDOO\ UHOLJLRXV ,W¶V KDOI D MRNH 7KH ZRUN LV FRPSOHWHO\ PHPH \ VKLW ZKLFK LV IXFNLQJ DZHVRPH $QG WKH PXVLF¶V JRRG DQG LQYRNHV WKRXJKW 6R ZK\ FDQ¶W ZH GR WKDW LQ ¿QH DUW" 5LJKW , KRQHVWO\ WKLQN WKDW¶V WKH EHVW IRUP RI LW /LNH WKDW¶V ZK\ FRPHGLDQV JHW VXFK D SODW

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I was working with an artist there and we sort of just learned how to tuft together ZDWFKLQJ YLGHRV DQG VWXII , PDGH D UXJ WKDW UHDG ³.,// $// &236´ EDFN LQ ZKHQ , ZDV DQ 6-: :H ZHUH LQLWLDOO\ VXSSRVHG WR ZRUN WRJHWKHU EXW WKH\ EHOLHYHG WKH ZRUN ZDV WRR SROLWLFDO DQG GLGQ¶W ¿W LQWR WKHLU ZRUOG , ZDV OLNH ³RND\ IXFN RII ´ Eventually they stopped making rugs and I just started making my own work and people dug the work. I think that the reason why I’m here is because the work is overly political and pretty absurdist. I was able to develop the practice from being D SDVVLRQ SURMHFW ZKLFK LW DEVROXWHO\ VWLOO LV WR D ¿QH DUW PHGLXP ZLWK QR ERXQGDULHV 7KDW¶V KRZ , JRW LQWR WXIWLQJ , SHUVRQDOO\ WKLQN \RXU ZRUN VWDUWHG D ORW PRUH DVVHUWLYH DQG LQ \RXU IDFH $QG QRZ LW¶V OLNH PRUH QXDQFHG 7RWDOO\ <HDK 'R \RX WKLQN WKDW¶V D JRRG RU D EDG WKLQJ" 7KDW¶V D JUHDW WKLQJ <HDK , WKLQN \RX¶UH OHDUQLQJ WR OHW WKH DUW FRPPXQLFDWH GLIIHUHQWO\ 7KDQN \RX , UHDOO\ DSSUHFLDWH WKDW %DVHG RQ WKH VHFRQG SDUW RI WKDW TXHVWLRQ DIWHU , VKRZHG VROR LQ 3RUWODQG , WRRN D VWHS EDFN , ORRNHG DW WKH LQVWDOODWLRQ RI DOO of my work and I felt very positive about where I was at in my practice. Like right now, I feel very good and comfortable with tufting. I feel like this is what I want to GR , ZDQQD PDNH ¿JXUHV DQG , ZDQW WR PDNH DEVXUG FROODJHV $QG , NQRZ KRZ WR GR LW , IHHO FRPIRUWDEOH GRLQJ LW 7KHUH DUH QR PLVWDNHV WKDW ,¶P PDNLQJ LQ WHUPV RI WXIWLQJ 8V VLWWLQJ KHUH QRZ , IHHO JRRG DERXW P\ SUDFWLFH WR WKH SRLQW ZKHUH , IHHO like maybe I can try different things now. Like I could go try new mediums maybe DQG GLIIHUHQW WH[WLOHV WKDW ,¶YH DOZD\V ZDQWHG WR 7KDW¶V D VFDU\ WKLQJ WR DGPLW %XW \HDK , GH¿QLWHO\ ZDQQD VWUD\ RXWVLGH RI MXVW GRLQJ WH[WLOH DQG WXIWLQJ , ZDQQD WU\ different mediums %XW ZKDW GRHV WKDW ORRN OLNH" I don’t know. I’ve always wanted to learn how to chain stitch. I’ve always wanted to OHDUQ KRZ WR ZHDYH $QG ,¶YH DOZD\V ZDQWHG WR GR PRUH VFXOSWXUDO DUW <RX GRQ¶W FRQVLGHU WKLV VFXOSWXUH" , GR $EVROXWHO\ , WKLQN WKDW , ZDQW WR WU\ PRUH ,W¶V OLNH D SDLQWHU SDLQWLQJ IRU WKH UHVW RI WKHLU OLIH 6RPHWLPHV \RX JRWWD PL[ LW XS I wanna, maybe after a few more pieces, take a break and just try something new. When artists try a new medium, they get re-inspired and re-motivated and their brain starts moving in gear again. 0\ IULHQG .DWMD LV D SDLQWHU DQG WKH\¶YH EHHQ SDLQWLQJ IRU OLNH VL[ \HDUV QRZ DQG WKH\¶UH DOZD\V VKRZLQJ DW IDLUV RU GRLQJ VRORV 7KH\ DGPLWWHG WKDW SDUWLFLSDWLQJ LQ D VLQJOH SUDFWLFH FDQ IHHO PXQGDQH 7KH\ VWDUWHG PHVVLQJ DURXQG ZLWK FOD\ DQG QRZ WKHUH LV D ZKROH UHHPHUJHQFH RI LGHDV , ZDQW WR IHHO WKDW 7KDW¶V QRW WR VD\ I don’t feel like I’m motivated. I think that I’m coasting at this discipline and I feel JRRG DQG ,¶P HQHUJL]HG ZLWK LGHDV 6R WKDW¶V NLQG RI ZKHUH ,¶P DW LQ P\ SUDFWLFH ULJKW QRZ , UHVSHFW WKDW /LNH DV D GLUHFWRU OLNH HYHQ IRU PH WKHUH¶V D SRLQW ZKHUH WKH SURFHVV JHWV ERULQJ <RX NQRZ ZKDW ,¶P VD\LQJ" (VSHFLDOO\ WKH VROLFLWLQJ

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Photo Break Out 2-08-21

II Tight Music Album Art

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going to the record store and standing for hours letting your ¿QJHUV JOLGH WKURXJK WKH UDFNV KDV VRPH SULPDO DSSHDO like hunting. I also believe that the depth of sound is so much fuller with analog recording, something this new generation has not EHHQ H[SRVHG WR LQ WKH GLJLWDO DJH 7KH IDQV WKDW DUH EHKLQG the resurgence of old school vinyl are for the most part a bit older and a bit more sophisticated. Many are audiophiles seeking the essence of what listening to an analog master was really like, not a digitally compressed clipped version MDPPHG LQWR DQ 03 IRUPDW :LWK WKDW VDLG , SHUVRQDOO\ have not noticed the mainstream record companies embrace this trend. Remember it’s about money. Fast money! 7KH IDVWHU \RX FDQ EULQJ D VRQJ RQOLQH IRU WKH OHDVW DPRXQW RI FDSLWDO WKH IDVWHU \RX ZLOO VHH UHWXUQV 8QIRUWXQDWHO\ WKLV is a pervasive sentiment throughout the music industry - from the composers and performers to the conglomerate CFOs. We shall see if it lasts or perhaps with technology ZH ZLOO ¿QG D KDSS\ PLGGOH JURXQG 7KH JRRG QHZV RI FRXUVH LV QRZ IRONV DUH DEOH WR KDYH WKH IXOO DOEXP FRYHU H[SHULHQFH LQ DOO LWV JORU\«DV LW ZDV 6$9$*( 0(752 %220,1Ķ

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originally designed…in the 12” format. :KDW UROH GR \RX WKLQN DOEXP FRYHU DUW SOD\V LQ VKDS LQJ DQ DUWLVW¶V EUDQG DQG RYHUDOO LPDJH DQG KRZ KDV WKLV HYROYHG RYHU WKH \HDUV" I believe a distinctive album cover along with strong marketing play a critical role in how that artist is perceived GRZQ WKH URDG +LVWRULFDOO\ ZH¶YH VHHQ VXFFHVVIXO DUWLVWV and groups resell their older releases or even incorporate WKHP LQWR QHZ IRUPDWV 7KHVH EHFRPH OHJDF\ SLHFHV WKDW

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VWRUHV WR ORZ UDFN VXE VWRUHV DQG ¿QDOO\ WR wholesale buy-outs. Only a few iconic pieces will make it to the collectors market. In addition, with today’s technology you have a new market of ‘print on demand’ which eliminates the middleman and inventory costs. Imagery used on album covers has historically been a wonderful medium to transfer fashLRQ 7KH FRQGXFWLYH SURSHUWLHV DUH VLJQL¿FDQW as the consumers are often the young and impressionable. I would say that in today’s market this is even more evident, as the ability for these listeners to purchase spontaneously has sparked a wave of branded products competing for space in music videos and on album FRYHUV DOLNH 7KLV LV VLPLODU WR 1$6&$5 EUDQGLQJ SODFHPHQW GLUHFWLYHV 7KH PXVLF PDQDJHPHQW FRPSDQLHV KDYH UH¿QHG WKLV DQG WKH\ NQRZ ZHOO ZKDW WKH\ GR 3HQ 3L[HO MXPSHG on this bandwagon early as it offered a huge SUR¿W FHQWHU E\ XWLOL]LQJ WKH DUWZRUN IRU PRUH than just the album point of sale. It also offered D JUHDW GHDO RI H[SRVXUH WR WKH DUWLVW :H RIfered it all from t-shirts, caps, and bandannas, to posters and cups. +RZ GR \RX KDQGOH FUHDWLYH GLVDJUHHPHQWV RU GLIIHULQJ RSLQLRQV ZLWK DUWLVWV RU FOLHQWV GXULQJ WKH GHVLJQ SURFHVV" 7KH WULFN ZLWK QHJRWLDWLRQ LV WUXVW DQG YDOXH VR both parties win. We did our best to make sure the client was very clear on the concept, the pictures being used and the font treatment. 7KDW LV ZK\ ZH VNHWFKHG HYHU\WKLQJ LQ JUHDW GHWDLO DQG LQFOXGHG FDOO RXWV IRU FODUL¿FDWLRQ We would not move forward without signatures of approval. ,Q WKH HDUO\ GD\V RI 3HQ 3L[HO ZRUNLQJ LQ 3KRWRVKRS DQG WKHUH ZHUH QR µÀRDWLQJ¶ layers so when you placed a picture in a composition, it was there...no moving it. Our solu-

tion was to save multiple variations of the cover along the way, in addition to all of the pathed NQRFNHG RXW REMHFWV LQ WKH FRYHU 7KLV WRRN a great deal of time and used a large amount RI KDUG GULYH VWRUDJH EXW LW DOORZHG WKH 3HQ 3L[HO WHDP WR PDNH FOLHQW GLUHFWHG PRGL¿FDtions to the cover without starting from scratch. If the client was not happy, we would do everything possible to come up with a solution. 8QIRUWXQDWHO\ WKHUH ZHUH WLPHV ZKHQ ZH FRXOG not meet their needs so we would end the projHFW DQG UHWDLQ D NLOO IHH 7KLV XVXDOO\ HQGHG WKH 3HQ 3L[HO UHODWLRQVKLS ZLWK WKLV FOLHQW ZKLFK unfortunately would prove to be a stumbling block when it came time for distribution in the south. RI WKH WLPH ZH KDG VXFFHVVIXO RXWFRPHV :KDW DUH VRPH RI WKH PRVW YDOXDEOH OHVVRQV \RX¶YH OHDUQHG WKURXJKRXW \RXU FDUHHU LQ WKH PXVLF DQG JUDSKLF GHVLJQ LQGXVWULHV" 8QGHUVWDQG EXVLQHVV \RXU PDUNHW DQG \RXU YDOXH EHIRUH SURFHHGLQJ $ EXVLQHVV SODQ LV HVVHQWLDO HYHQ D EDVLF ³QR % 6 DVVHVVPHQW´ of what you are doing and who you are selling WR .HHS FDVK ÀRZ IUHH IRU HPHUJHQFLHV 5HLQvest in yourself through classes, seminars and tutorials. Only buy what you need, not what you ZDQW 3D\ \RXUVHOI ¿UVW EXW GRQ¶W EH VWXSLG 0\ EURWKHU DQG , GLG QRW WDNH RQH SHQQ\ IURP 3HQ 3L[HO DV VDODU\ XQWLO ZH KDG WKH FRPSDQ\ IRU 4 years. We invested in our employees and WKH FRPSDQ\ ¿UVW DQG DV D UHVXOW ZH KDG WKH DELOLW\ WR H[SDQG DQG JURZ DW DQ XQSUHFHGHQWed rate as the demands grew. +RZ GR \RX VHH WKH UROH RI DOEXP FRYHU DUW HYROYLQJ LQ WKH IXWXUH SDUWLFXODUO\ DV PX VLF FRQVXPSWLRQ FRQWLQXHV WR VKLIW WRZDUGV VWUHDPLQJ SODWIRUPV" 7KHUH DUH WZR GLIIHUHQW VWUHDPV RI WKRXJKW WKDW

I entertain for the future of music marketing in the visual realm: 1. The covers are going to be smaller in size physicalO\ 7KH ¿QLVK TXDOLW\ DQG FRQFHSWV ZLOO EH PXWHG 7KH producers are not going to invest the time and money LQWR FRYHU DUWZRUN WKDW LV GHVLJQHG LQWHQWLRQDOO\ WR VWRS D µVKRSSHU¶ DQG JHW WKHP WR HQJDJH LQ WKH PXVLF /LNH PDQ\ WKLQJV LQ WRGD\¶V ZRUOG FRYHUV ZLOO EH PRUH RI D ORZ UHV SODFHKROGHU WR JHW WKH MRE GRQH RQ VWUHDPLQJ SODWIRUPV 7KH FRYHU GHVLJQ ZLOO EH PXOWL GLPHQVLRQDO DQG DOORZ WKH YLHZHU LQ WKH µ0HWDYHUVH¶ WR SDUWDNH LQ WKH GHVLJQ H[SORULQJ LW LQ JUHDW GHWDLO 7KLV ZLOO EH DQ HIIHFWLYH DQG HQWHUWDLQLQJ ZD\ WR PD[LPL]H WKH DUW DQG HQGHDU WKH FXVWRPHU WR WKH PXVLF DQG WKH DOEXP GHVLJQHU DOLNH ,I \RX FRXOG JR EDFN LQ WLPH DQG JLYH DGYLFH WR \RXU \RXQJHU VHOI ZKHQ \RX ¿UVW VWDUWHG 3HQ 3L[HO ZKDW ZRXOG \RX VD\" I would ensure that I understood more about basic business operations. My brother taught me that I needed to H[SDQG DQG WUDLQ RXU GHVLJQ VWDII WR UHSOLFDWH P\ FUHative techniques or we would be limited in our growth. Being an artist that considers every cover a masterpiece with 100% attention to all details, this concept was hard WR JUDVS 0\ EURWKHU H[SODLQHG LW OLNH WKLV ´&DQ \RX EH KDSS\ ZLWK IRU D WHQ IROG LQFUHDVH LQ JURZWK" /RRNing back, it was a no brainer, but it took 4 arduous years IRU PH WR OHDUQ WR OHW WKDW JR

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