Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said! (Expanded Second Edition)

JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR SEVENTY-FIVE PRESENTS:

&

Stuf’ Said! Expanded Second Edition

The complex genesis of the Marvel Universe, in its creators’ own words

Acknowledgments Thanks to: Mark Alexander, Barry Alfonso, Jim Amash, Scott Anderson,

Robert Beerbohm, Blake Bell, Tom Bierbaum, Al Bigley, The Tom Brevoort Experience (https://tombrevoort.com/category/lee-kirby/), David Burd, Aaron Caplan, Nick Caputo, Dewey Cassell, Mark Clegg, Jon B. Cooke, Adrian Day, Ferran Delgado, Scott Edelman, Mark Evanier, Brett Ewins, Danny Fingeroth, Shane Foley, Pat Ford, Joe Frank, Mike Gartland, Glen Gold, Gary Groth, Bruce Haley, Heritage Auctions, Michael Hill, Rand Hoppe, Sean Howe, Richard Howell, Rob Imes, Richard Kolkman, Tom Kraft, Russ Maheras, Kevin J. Maroney, Alan McKenzie, Will Murray, Edward Nelson, Barry Pearl, Mark Poe, Jeffrey Lee Puckett, Philippe Queveau, Robby Reed, Beppe Sabatini, Arlen Schumer, Cory Sedlmeier, Steve Sherman, Jim Shooter, Fred Smith, Robin Snyder, Alexis Sottile, Rob Steibel, Aaron Sultan, Roy Thomas, Jim Van Heuklon, James Van Hise, Michael Vassallo, Mark Voger, Curtis Wong, and Ray Wyman who provided materials both directly and indirectly for this book, and inspiration from their own research and writings.

Copyrights

Agatha Harkness, Alicia Masters, Angel, Ant-Man, Aunt May, Avengers, Baron Mordo, Batroc, Beast, Beetle, Black Bolt, Agent 13/Sharon Carter, Black Panther, Boomerang, Bucky, Captain America, Captain Mar-Vell, Crystal, Cyclops, Daredevil, Destroyer, Destructon, Devil’s Advocate, Don Blake, Dormammu, Dr. Doom, Dr. Droom, Dr. Strange, Druid, Dum-Dum Dugan, Ego, Eternals, Fantastic Four, Foom, Galactus, Giant-Man, Green Goblin, Happy Hogan, Hawkeye, Heimdall, High Evolutionary, Him, Howling Commandos, Hulk, Human Torch, Hydra, Iceman, Inhumans, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, J. Jonah Jameson, Jane Foster, Janus, Jasper Sitwell, Juggernaut, Ka-Zar, Kang, Karnak, Kid Colt, Krang, Kronin Krask, Leader, Loki, Machine Man, Mad Thinker, Mangog, Marvel Girl, Marvelman, Mary Jane Watson, Medusa, Melter, Miracle Man, Molecule Man, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Odin, Paste-Pot Pete, Patsy Walker, Pepper Potts, Peter Parker, Plunderer, Prester John, Professor Xavier, Psycho-Man, Puppet Master, Quasimodo, Quicksilver, Rawhide Kid, Recorder, Red Skull, Ringmaster & His Circus of Crime, Sandman, Scarlet Witch, Sentinels, Sgt. Fury, Sgt. Muldoon, SHIELD, Sif, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, Sub-Mariner, Swordsman, Thing, Thor, Triton, Two-Gun Kid, Warriors Three, Wasp, Watcher, X-Men TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • Batman, Blackhawk, Blue Beetle, Boy Commandos, Brainiac, Captain Atom, Challengers of the Unknown, Clark Kent, Creeper, Darkseid, Forever People, Funky Flashman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Guardian, Hawk & Dove, Himon, Houseroy, Hunger Dogs, Jimmy Olsen, Joker, Justice League of America, Lex Luthor, Mister Miracle, New Gods, Newsboy Legion, OMAC, Orion, Penguin, Plastic Man, Sandman, Sandy, Shazam, Stan Bragg, Super Powers, Superman TM & © DC Comics • Comics Journal TM & © Fantagraphics • Star Trek, Bob TM & ©Paramount Television • “Split” Captain Marvel and the Terrible 5, Captain Nice, Destructor, Fatman, Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs, Secrets Behind The Comics, Sick magazine, Silver Spider, Sundance Kid TM & © the respective copyright holder • Private Strong, The Fly, The Shield TM & © Archie Comics • B-Man, Spyman, Tiger Boy TM & © Harvey Comics • Spirit TM & © Will Eisner • Thunder Agents TM & © Radiant Assets • 2001: A Space Odyssey TM & © Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. • Black Hole TM & © Walt Disney Productions • Roxie’s Raiders, Thundarr TM & © Ruby-Spears Productions • “The Family”, Beast Rider, Bombast, Captain Glory, Captain Victory, Chip Hardy, Coal Tiger, Dr. Mortalis, Mindmaster, Silver Star, Sky Masters, Spiderman, Starman Zero, Stereon TM & © Jack Kirby Estate • Destroyer Duck TM & © Steve Gerber and Jack Kirby • Fighting American, Night Fighter, Sunfire Man of Flame, Win A Prize TM & © Joe Simon & Jack Kirby Estates

Stuf’ Said!

Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said! (Expanded Second Edition) Researched, written, & edited by John Morrow dedicated to Jon B. Cooke & Richard Kolkman, for their tireless work documenting stuf’ said Proofreading by Eric Nolen-Weathington, Rob Smentek, Kevin Sharp, and John Morrow Softcover ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6 • Limited Hardcover ISBN: 978-1-60549-095-3 First Printing of the Expanded Second Edition • June 2019 • Printed in China web: www.twomorrows.com • e-mail: twomorrow@aol.com Editorial package © TwoMorrows Publishing, a division of TwoMorrows Inc. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All Kirby artwork is © Jack Kirby Estate unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. Views expressed here are those of the respective contributors, and not necessarily those of TwoMorrows Publishing or the Jack Kirby Estate. All rights reserved. No portion of this publication, except for limited review use, may be reproduced in any manner without express permission. All quotes and image reproductions are © the respective owners, and are used here for journalistic commentary, criticism, and scholarly analysis.

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Contents

Opening Arguments...................................4 The Rules of Law.......................................7 1940–1960: Preliminary Findings............9 1961: The Blitz.........................................19 1962: Personal Best................................25 1963: All-Out Assault..............................33 1964: The Build-Up..................................42 1965: Collaborations’ End.......................51 1966: Ragnarok........................................69 1967: Aftermath.......................................79 1968: Distance.........................................89 1969: Solitude..........................................97 1970: Departure.....................................109 1971–1974: Proving Ground.................117 1975–1978: Comings & Goings............129 1979–1994: Conflict..............................141 1995-On: Closing Arguments................163 The Verdict?...........................................173 [this page and previous] Detail panels from Fantastic Four #59.

Opening Arguments working for them. While Stan was the public face of Marvel, Kirby was a behind-the-scenes creative engine, helping steer the direction of virtually the entire line in the first few years of the 1960s. He not only brought an incredible sense of power and dynamism to Marvel’s line-up, he visualized countless characters, settings, and concepts that are just beginning to be mined today by the Marvel films that are breaking box office records around the world. As the 1960s wore on, Jack was doing more of the work, via the “Marvel Method,” where the “artist” was responsible for much/ most/all of the plotting and pacing of the stories, while the “writer” concentrated on the words in the caption boxes and balloons, after the drawn pages were completed and the story totally fleshed out. But Kirby was also seeing Lee get most of the credit—and since Lee was the editor, he had final say in making changes to Kirby’s stories, even tales he had minimal or no involvement with from the outset. It led to irreconcilable differences between them, and by 1970, any semblance of a collaboration was over. Add to that Marvel’s shortsighted insistence on withholding Kirby’s original art from him as a bargaining chip in the 1980s. They feared that his involvement in the creation of their characters would reflect poorly on them legally, and they’d have to pony up some equitable remuneration to him for all the creating he did as a freelancer. It was the perfect storm for a contentious battle, that inevitably reflected poorly on both men, as they disputed who actually created the Marvel Universe. Long after Jack’s 1994 death, that bitter fight culminated in September 2009, when the Kirby family took steps to reclaim rights on characters he was involved with between 1958–1963 at Marvel Comics. There was a protracted legal battle, in which I played a minuscule part, but Disney became an enormous player, due to purchasing Marvel at that time for $4 billion. With that much money at stake, there was no way they were going to risk losing the copyrights on their investment without a fight. As things stand today, following a 2014 settlement between Jack’s family and Marvel Comics (now owned by Disney), an injustice that had existed for over half a century has been righted. Kirby is now recognized as a co-creator, with Stan Lee, of the Marvel Universe and its major characters. Marvel says it in their comics, Disney says it in their movies, and the world at large is slowly catching on to what learned comics fans already knew. Money has changed hands and legal documents have been signed, so as far as the general population is concerned, it’s over. Kirby finally won— though I’d argue that Marvel, Disney, and Stan Lee also won, due to the goodwill this has and will generate for years to come. But—and there’s always a “but” in comics history, isn’t there?—there’s still one technicality that hasn’t been resolved. Just who did what in that creation spree between Kirby and Lee in the 1960s? Kirby’s most ardent supporters say he did 90% of the work, and Lee hogged all the glory. Stan’s fans feel he came up with the basic ideas, innovated with his characterizations, and reined in Jack’s wackiest notions with deft editing and slick Madison Avenuestyle promotion. So, who’s right? If you take all the hard-core partisans of either guy out of the picture, is there a way to help the remaining body of people who care about such things, reach a consensus on the topic? I don’t know, but I’m going to give it the old college try in this book, named in tribute to Lee’s signature “’Nuff Said” catchphrase. Originally, I announced this project back in Summer 2014,

see, it was also r #59. As you’ll 66’s Fantastic Fou g changed for Kirby and Lee. 19 in up aks spe the year everythin Black Bolt finally

I

f you’re at all knowledgeable about comic book history, you probably know that Marvel Comics got its start (at least as “Marvel Comics”) in 1961, with the debut issue of the Fantastic Four by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. The company existed before that, dating back to the late 1930s under the names “Timely Comics” and “Atlas Comics,” but FF #1 finally put Marvel on the map as an innovating company, after two previous decades constantly following others’ trends. In the 1960s, though Kirby was the top artist to informed comic book fans, Stan Lee became the breakout star to the general public, garnering attention in the press as the hip writer who changed comics and super-heroes around, with a newfound complexity to their characterization. Lee’s m.o. was giving characters “hang-ups,” like Iron Man’s weak heart, Daredevil’s blindness, Spider-Man’s—well, acne, heartburn, post-nasal drip, allergies, chronic halitosis, and a dozen other maladies, depending on what Stan Lee interview you were reading. I’ve still never found most of those ailments in any of Spidey’s comics, but the public got the idea—Stan was doing groundbreaking writing, for comics anyway. Lee’s dialogue took the characters to new, hipper areas than readers had seen before, and he deserves the accolades for it. Marvel’s comics were different than anyone else’s, and by 1965, all their competitors were trying to copy the company, with little success. Another reason they couldn’t duplicate Marvel’s popularity was because they didn’t have a visionary artist/storyteller like Jack Kirby 4

just months before the legal case was resolved. In light of that settlement, I decided we’d all had enough, and to let the matter rest, at least for awhile. I knew I’d had enough at that point. After my January 2011 deposition as an Expert Witness in the case, and my participation in the Amicus Brief that helped the US Supreme Court decide whether or not to hear the Kirbys’ appeal (a decision we’ll never know the outcome of, since Disney settled just days before the Justices were to announce whether they’d take on this potentially landmark copyright case)—I was ready for a break. But this monster project kept nagging at me, mainly because I’ve never been able to reconcile some of what both Jack and Stan had said at various times since they worked together in the 1960s. Where does the truth lie? And is there a simple answer to it? To find out, I decided I’d take a lesson from what I learned in the Kirby/Marvel dispute. Without dwelling on the specifics of that very long day of my deposition, I must’ve done something right, because Marvel and Disney’s legal team managed to get my testimony (and Mark Evanier’s) thrown out, on the basis that I wasn’t actually there, in the Marvel offices, between 1961–1965 when Stan and Jack were doing their thing. Since I wasn’t born until the waning days Stan Lee in the 1950s. of 1962, sure, I couldn’t dispute it was true. But it was disheartening that all the years I’ve spent researching and learning about both Kirby and Lee, was dismissed in a quick decision by a judge. Had the Supreme Court Justices agreed to hear the case (and it was looking pretty clear to pundits that they were going to), my deposition might’ve been reconsidered, even though I wasn’t physically in the Marvel offices in the 1960s. But that’s the approach I’m taking with this book: Take the reader back there with the two men who knew what went on in Stan’s office when Jack visited on Fridays, to drop off his work and discuss the next storylines. Let both men testify by way of quotes, in real-time chronological order, making it as close to being there as you and I can get. The issue of fairness was a big concern for me, but one I quickly was able to come to terms with. The relatively sparse number of Kirby quotes from 1961–1970, compared to the wealth of Lee quotations, should give you an idea what Jack was dealing with then. Stan was (and still is) Marvel’s mouthpiece, and though he does mention Kirby in most 1960s interviews, Lee quickly became a polished interview subject, and the talks logically centered around his involvement in the comics. Kirby’s interviews weren’t as smooth and scripted, but I’ve reconciled his relatively few rebuttal opportunities with a bit of my own speculation here and there (all clearly labeled as such) to hopefully balance the scales a little. One day, when someone starts a Stan Lee Collector magazine, there’ll be plenty of untapped quotes by Stan they can present, although I’m confident nothing short of Lee’s sealed 2010 court testimony could fundamentally add to this discussion beyond what I’ve got here.

I’ve never been a major follower of Steve Ditko’s work, or of Spider-Man, for that matter. And Ditko’s distaste for speaking out and appearing publicly puts him at even more of a disadvantage against Lee’s verbosity. So alas, there’s little I can do to rectify that disparity, but I think the few quotes from Ditko presented here speak well of him, and of his involvement at Marvel. Now, let’s be realistic; there’s always the chance that some of the comments here will be unjustly prejudicial toward one side or the other. Over time, memories fade, and new motivations creep in—sometimes unconsciously, sometimes not. We all react to the world around us, and the events that shape our lives. Kirby and Lee weren’t immune to this, and those that worked with them weren’t either. Plus, there were literally billions of dollars riding on the 2010 courtroom battle. But though I’ve not put anyone under oath here, I’m going to assume the main witnesses are all telling the truth, through their own perceptions, within this book. Here’s some background on the major players, in case you’re unfamiliar with some of them.

Stan Lee

From the start of his career, Lee’s personality won people over. Co-workers mostly adored him while he spent two decades cranking out unremarkable stories for Marvel, beginning in 1941. But until Kirby and Ditko arrived in the late 1950s, there were no notable characters created by him, super-hero or otherwise. Then suddenly, groundbreaking new series and characters started appearing from 1961–1965, due to an epiphany he had (brought on by the urging of his wife). By 1966, Stan seemed more focused on building his public persona than creating anything new, and shortly after Kirby left Marvel in 1970, he moved up to the position of publisher and stopped writing comics. By the late 1970s, Lee was devoting all his time to a career in Hollywood, and today has finally achieved a level of celebrity previously unknown in the world of comics, regularly appearing in Marvel film cameos, and being recognized and loved by the public worldwide. He died November 12, 2018, just days after the first printing of this book went to press.

Jack Kirby

Almost from his first work in comics, Kirby was an innovator. He’s always been the “artist’s artist” within the comics industry, envied and imitated by his peers. But his greatest commercial success was always when working in conjunction with a level-headed, business-oriented personality like Joe Simon or Stan Lee to guide him. Jack had no real business acumen himself, and when he broke away from Marvel and Lee in 1970, the cutting-edge concepts were still there, but they lacked the focus and immediate Jack Kirby in early 1966. marketing potential of his previous work. Starting in the early 1980s, Jack was regularly dealing with Marvel’s lawyers, and was quite frustrated. By the time his original art battle became public in 1985, he was livid over his treatment by the company. In his 1989 Comics Journal interview, he was bitter after having spent the last part of his life waging that war. He died in 1994, cherished by his fans, but with no resolution about getting credit for his creatorship at Marvel. 5

Steve Ditko

encountered, and in working with him since 1997, I’ve never found him to be anything less than 100% fair, professional, and honest.

This talented artist sadly passed away during the writing of this book, on June 29, 2018. But he wasn’t going to be involved regardless; my inquiries to him over the years made that clear. His avoidance of the celebrity spotlight and adherence to his ethics, gives me confidence that the few public comments he gave (largely through friend and publisher Robin Snyder) were accurate and honest, according to his own recollections.

Steve Sherman & Mark Evanier

Both Steve and Mark served as Jack’s assistants in the early 1970s when he moved to DC Comics, and were involved in the 1969 Marvelmania fan club operations, dealing directly with Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. Steve has no reason for bias other than his friendship with Jack; he doesn’t owe Kirby any real career debt, as he never went into comics himself. While Mark does dabble in comics scripting, his main gig has long been writing for the wider entertainment industry, and he has been equally close friends with both Lee and Kirby. I’ve always found both of them to be reliable and trustworthy in their recollections.

Joe Simon

Always the consummate businessman, Simon was more renowned for his deals than his creative work, although he was a very adept artist in his own right. But Kirby tended to get the lion’s share of the creativity credit in their relationship, while Simon steered the duo’s financial boat with a steady hand from one company to another. He had a flair for coming up with concepts and gimmicks that would stand out from the crowd, and he always looked out for Kirby’s best interests as well as his own. Once they parted ways, Kirby suffered without his cagey expertise in deal-making which kept Jack out of trouble. Simon died on December 14, 2011.

Wally Wood

A troubled but supremely talented artist, who first made a name for himself at EC Comics in the 1950s with his meticulously detailed work. None other than Frank Frazetta had this to say about Wood in a 2001 interview with Dr. David Winiewicz: “Wood was a man’s man, and anything Wally said was heartfelt and authentic. No B.S. in Wally at all. I appreciated that. Compared to Woody, everyone else is a hypocrite.”

Steve Sherman and Mark

Evanier, with Kirby at his

drawing board, circa 1970

.

John Morrow (Me)

I’ve been a Kirby fan since age 15, and didn’t grow up reading Lee’s dialogue; I began with pure Kirby at DC Comics in the 1970s and worked my way back to the 1960s Marvel books. It didn’t take long for me to develop a love for their collaborations, and when I learned in the mid-1980s that Stan wasn’t stepping in to help Jack with his original art fight, I was so disillusioned and angry that I destroyed the autograph I got from Lee in 1977. In 1991, I finally got to meet Kirby during a brief encounter at the San Diego ComicCon, but I had no idea that I’d end up producing a regular publication about the man, let alone publishing a whole line of books and magazines about comics history and creators.

Roy Thomas

Roy was involved in the early days of 1960s comics fandom, before working in the comics industry, first for DC Comics’ editor Mort Weisinger in 1965. After two difficult weeks there, he took Stan Lee’s writer’s test, passed with flying colors, and switched to Marvel Comics, where he eventually succeeded Lee as Editor In Chief. But he remains a fan at heart, relentless in his pursuit of documenting comic book history. While admittedly loyal to Stan Lee for helping his creative career blossom, Roy also has one of the sharpest memories I’ve ever

That’s my take on all the main witnesses. You are the jury, so prepare to examine all the evidence and make a ruling. I’ll be back at the end of this book with my own verdict, for what it’s worth. Court is now in session! I call to the stand Jack Kirby and Stan Lee. 6

The Rules of Law T

here are a few things to note in fully understanding my methodology for this book.

discussion to keep this distinction intact, rather than correct it.

Take It With A Grain Of Salt

Just like in a court of law, I want to present the factual evidence to be evaluated, with real-time quotes, and the memories of those who were involved. But there are instances where I’ve chosen to speculate, to help drive a point home or bring some clarity to the discussion. Anywhere I feel I’m interjecting my own opinions forcefully or questioning the historical record, I preface them with this salt shaker icon. Feel free to completely ignore my ramblings and continue on with the “stuf’ said” by the key witnesses. I don’t mind being overruled.

Adding Some Color To My Font Choices

This was originally going to be a black-&-white printDetail from 1982’s Ca ed book, with all the quotes ptain Victor y #6. differentiated from my text by using a BLACK TYPEWRITER FONT. But as I got further into it, I felt its “oral history” approach would be better served if there was a clear demarcation of who was saying what, without overwhelming it with “Stan Lee said...” and “Jack Kirby replied...”. So throughout, Lee, Kirby, and Ditko (the three main players) receive their own unique font treatment, for easy identification. Lee as “writer” gets that same typewriter font for his quotes, except that it’s printed in RED. Wherever there’s a quote by Kirby, since he’s such a bold artist, I use a sans serif font printed in BLUE. Ditko, being so idiosyncratic, gets a unique script font printed in GREEN. For any conspiracy theorists out there, please know there was no intentional biblical or political connotations to my color choices. All of the “character witnesses” that are quoted WORD BALLOONS: remembering past events are announced with a word balloon, and their typewriter font is in SEPIA.

The Need for Speed

To keep this truly chronological, unless it’s specifically indicated otherwise, all the dating and quotes in this book are in realtime—the time the stories were being worked on, not when they went on sale. The lead time with which Kirby, Ditko, and others were drawing their stories is important, so I’m making educated guesses. For Kirby at least, I’m assuming these were the average number of months that Kirby was drawing a story ahead of its publication date: • 1958–1961 releases: three months ahead • 1962–1964 releases (with annuals thrown in): four months ahead • 1965-early 1969 releases (when he was also doing layouts for other artists, and later when his workload lessened to just three books per month): five months ahead on Fantastic Four, four months ahead on others • March 1969 to late 1969 (after moving to California): six months ahead on Fantastic Four, four-to-five months ahead on others • 1970 (after taking on more final work): back to five months ahead on Fantastic Four, four months ahead on others.

Feeling A Little Tense

Since this is a chronological examination of an historical era, I’ve decided to put the main text of it in first-person, to better convey the progression of time. Where I interject a quote by Kirby or Lee that was spoken much later, I bracket the year it was said (e.g. [1969]) at the beginning of the quote, so it’s immediately apparent it wasn’t said concurrent with what preceded it.

This list is a very rough guide, only showing a likely average time when Jack might’ve been working on each strip, based on anecdotal evidence. If you want to see the spreadsheet I used as my guide, you can download it here:

The Fine Print

http://www.twomorrows.com/media/KirbyMarvelDates.xls

Yes, I know the footnotes and art captions are small. Again, this is an intentional choice I made, and not just to save space in this dense tome. As much as possible, I don’t want them to interfere with the flow of reading the main text chronologically. I’d like them to be more of a minor distraction, like a gnat, instead of a giant bumblebee buzzing around your head. But there’s good info there, so read them as you go along, if that works best for you.

It’s likely got a lot of inaccurate listings, but can serve as a starting point for giving us some idea of what Jack was working on at the time some of his and Stan’s quotes were being made. At the end of the day, this faulty list should be good enough, as few of the dates are that critical, and if I’m off by a month (or three, or even more), we’re still getting a general sense of the sequencing of work to comment about it. Since no definite listing of Jack’s production schedule exists, this’ll have to suffice. Stan’s lead time is much easier to pinpoint accurately. An average of three months prior to the release date is when he would generally start dialoguing an issue. Again, it could vary (Ditko recounts waiting 54 days once to get a dialogued Dr. Strange story back for inking), but I need a general guide, so that’s what I’m using. A Bullpen page or letter column was almost always written three months prior to the on-sale date (and four months at most), so those are easy to pin down. Comments in Fantastic Four #6 (1962), Strange Tales #137 (1965), FF #58 (1966), and my queries to Roy Thomas, let me pinpoint when most things were written in real-time.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman (-)

Throughout this book, if “Spiderman” has no hyphen (as opposed to “Spider-Man,” the trademarked spelling of Marvel’s signature character), it’s intentional because either: 1) I’m talking about the version of the character before Steve Ditko’s involvement, which Kirby brought to Marvel in that unhyphenated form (more on this later), or 2) it’s Stan Lee (or someone else) spelling it that way mistakenly, or using it inconsistently. Since the original art for Spidey’s first appearance shows it was unhyphenated before lettering corrections were made, I think it’s important to the chronological 7

There are some exceptions to be aware of:

the contrary, the reading public assumes one person “wrote” it, and the other one “drew” it, with no melding of talents between the two. And that’s not the way comics worked at Marvel in the 1960s. Kirby was especially a victim of the lack of credit that the Marvel Method causes. Where other artists (Gene Colan, John Romita, Don Heck) would flesh out scenes with minor details and additions, Kirby fleshed out entire stories by adding new concepts and prominent characters. He plotted or co-plotted much of Marvel’s output, even on stories where he only did basic stick-figure layouts for other artists to complete. Examine these quotes from both men, and I think you’ll see what I mean. Remember, Stan’s in red, and Jack’s in blue:

In Amazing Spider-Man #25 (the first issue with Ditko’s plotting credit, on-sale date of March 11, 1965), Flo Steinberg apologizes for repeating a reader’s letter in both #22 and #23. That means Flo’s apology was inserted, probably at the last minute, into the letter column for #25 right after #23 went on sale on Jan. 12, 1965. That means the letters page for #25 went to press after the Jan. 15, 1965 on-sale date for #23 at the earliest, making it two months before the on-sale date. But I’m willing to write this off as a correction sent to the printer at the last minute, and not the normal timing. I’m working backward from release dates, but Jack worked far ahead, and sometimes in a different sequence than issues appeared on the newsstands. For instance, he inexplicably has 5-page stories in Rawhide Kid #43 and Kid Colt #119 in 1964, over a year after he’s stopped actively doing Westerns. Were these done a year earlier, and finally published in 1964? Or six months earlier? As a last-minute job Stan needed? There’s no way to know for sure. The job numbers on each story can help somewhat in ascertaining the sequence in which Jack does each story, but only a little. A new job number was assigned when the first activity on a story took place, and that wasn’t necessarily Jack starting to draw it. It could be Stan assigning it to another writer (or himself) weeks or months before any actual work begins, and in that time Jack may’ve started drawing the job assigned the next sequential job number.

“You can call it plotted. I call it script . I wrote the script and I drew the story.”

Also, Mark Evanier told me that Jack didn’t necessarily work a regular schedule of Fantastic Four/Thor/Captain America this month, then another FF/Thor/Cap the next month, etc. When he finished one job, he’d ask Stan Lee what he wanted him to work on next. Since Jack was fast and worked far ahead, Stan would assign Jack’s next job based on any number of factors. For instance, if Joe Sinnott was about to need inking work, Stan might tell him to go ahead and do another Fantastic Four issue. If Joe were running behind, he might tell Kirby to draw another Thor or Cap strip, or give him some rush or fill-in job that needed doing the most.

1985: An Interview with Jack Kirby by Leonard Pitts Jr. Date determined by Pitts’ letter to Rand Hoppe at the Jack Kirby Museum.

“I did everything but put the words in the balloons. But all of it was mine, except the words in the balloons.”

“Every word of dialogue in those scripts was mine. Every story.”

Jack and Roz took a couple of trips to California prior to Jan. 1969 to find a new home, check out schools, etc. So the latter half of 1968’s schedule wouldn’t fit a regular pattern. More perplexing is Kirby’s 1969 work, after his move. He’s dropped Captain America, leaving only Fantastic Four and Thor on his schedule. The loss of that full book would’ve adversely affected his income, and based only on release dates, Jack was sitting around with one-third of his time in 1969 unfilled, thus one-third less money in his bank account that year. While that may’ve been the case some months, his work pace was constantly changing, and Mark Evanier said that at one point, Kirby may’ve done multiple issues of one strip in a row before jumping back on to another strip.

“I can tell you that I wrote a few lines myself above every panel...”

But there are a few key clues we can use, to pinpoint some specific dates. For instance:

“Did you ever read one of the stories after it was finished? ...I don’t think you ever read one of my stories...”

“They weren’t printed in the books.”

“I wasn’t allowed to write dialogue, Stanley. I wrote my own dialogue.”

• The letters page of X-Men #5 says that Stan and Jack will start on Fantastic Four #28 as soon as the letters page is completed. Since these pages were generally done three months prior to the ship-date of an issue, that notice was written Dec. 3, 1963, so Kirby would’ve started FF #28 around Dec. 9, 1963. Interestingly, that’s also the first issue of FF that featured margin notes, so that helps date the onset of their use, since FF was the book most likely to be ahead of schedule.

“Whatever was written in them was [insignificant]... it was the action I was interested in.”

“I don’t think you ever felt that the dialogue was that important... you felt, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter, anybody can put the dialogue in, it’s what I’m drawing that matters.’ ...I don’t agree with it, but maybe you’re right.”

• The first issues where Jack leaves margin notes on his pages for each strip, should all coincide within 1–2 months of each other. (There’s no reason to assume he would add margin notes to FF pages, but not Thor pages done right after, or vice versa.) • The same logic applies to the start of using the smaller 10" x 15" art boards, rather than the 12" x18" “large art.” If Marvel told artists on a given date to start using the new size, the first issue of each strip that has it, probably would’ve been drawn within 1–2 months of each other. (Unless, of course, Jack was doing multiple consecutive issues of one comic before jumping to the next one, which we have no way of determining.)

“If one man is writing and drawing and doing a strip... you should have the opportunity to do the entire thing yourself. Create your own story.”

So we’re making an awful lot of educated guesses on these dates, and you should take them all with a grain of salt. But regardless of where he deviated from a regular production schedule month to month, it would’ve eventually come back around to righting itself once deadlines loomed. So there is value here.

Aug. 28, 1987: Robert Knight’s Earthwatch, Jack Kirby radio interview conducted by Warren Reece and Max Schmid, WBAI New York.

Jack came into the office initially, every other Friday. Since he could draw three pages per day easily, it would take him less than a week to draw a full issue. So each “story conference” would be for multiple books, to keep him busy for two full weeks.

Kirby and Lee both refer to the word “script” as meaning different things at different times. Sometimes it’s a fully-written, detailed explanation of what should happen in every panel on every page, such as what Lee types up in the 1950s before the Marvel Method comes into play. Other times, it’s Kirby’s set of fully drawn pages that are turned in and ready for Lee to add the blurbs and dialogue. And still other times, “script” refers to a sheet of paper containing Lee’s dialogue, to be added to Kirby’s drawn pages by a letterer. From his perspective, Kirby is “writing” the story when he takes a basic plot (either his, Lee’s, or a combination of both) and breaks it down into a multi-page story, pacing it, setting the scenes, and adding whatever creative touches and characters he comes up with. He also considers his margin notes on the side of the pages to be the “script” for his “dialogue”; written in shorthand, yes, but adequate for someone to expand upon, to make more polished verbiage in the balloons. Lee usually does more than just reword Kirby’s margin notes, sometimes changing Kirby’s meaning to make the story more in keeping with his own tastes. He views that dialogue creation as “writing” the story. So when you see words like “script” and “write” and “story” highlighted in this book, take a moment to really analyze what the speaker means. It’s not always as apparent as it may seem. As you’ll see, when Kirby or Lee misunderstand what the other is talking about, it can lead to a lot of conflict in stuf’ said.

When is a Script not a Script, and a Writer not a Writer?

Just as an “artist” can be two things (Van Gogh and Beethoven were both “artists,” but only one of them was the kind of “artist” that actually generates paintings and sketches), so can a “writer.” And in comic book parlance, a “script” can have multiple meanings. Coming up with a story idea (or “plot”) in comics, is different than creating the dialogue for a story. Lee often lumps it all together, and uses vague generalities for what an “artist” and “writer” are, when in reality, the writer may do either or both of those tasks. When Lee calls himself or someone else a “scripter” or “writer,” it doesn’t necessarily mean that person came up with the idea for the story (by themselves, or in collaboration with an “artist”); just that they wrote the final blurbs and word balloons on the printed page. In the Marvel Method, the “artist” may contribute half, or all of the plot/idea for a story, and unless they specifically demand it, they usually don’t get public credit for that effort. Just listing them as “artist” or “art by...” sells them short. Conversely, listing someone as “writer,” “scripter,” or “written by...” may over-inflate their contribution, since by default it implies that person came up with the story plot/idea. Unless there’s a specific “plotted by” credit to 8

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Preliminary Findings Martin Goodman.

1940–1960

ster, NY) le (Roche d Chronic by Robert Rowe ocrat an on em D m : Si 1990 with Joe June 21, interview

1940

“We created Captain America. We did the first full book of Captain Marvel for Fawcett Publications. I also created Blue Bolt, a super-hero comic book, for Curtis Publications, the Saturday Evening Post people, all in one year. It’s unbelievable; I just can’t believe what we did in 1940. “Jack and I turned out so much stuff that we had many work methods. At the beginning, I would write the story right on the art board, making very rough layouts. Then Jack would tighten up the drawing, and if he had to, help with the story. We were both prolific writers. Then I would ink it. That was the true Simon and Kirby stuff.” JOE Simon:

Jacob Kurtzberg and Joseph Simon collaborate for the first time on Blue Bolt #2. Kurtzberg’s debut work for Timely Comics (the future Marvel Comics) appears in Red Raven Comics #1 (August cover date), with the “Mercury” feature. It is the first time he signs his work by the name “Jack Kirby” (one of numerous pen names he initially uses, but it’s the one that sticks), and the team of Simon and Kirby is established. Sometime in late 1939/early 1940, Timely publisher Martin Goodman hires Joe Simon as the comics line’s editor, and, outside the office, Simon and Kirby conceive of Captain America, which they pitch to Goodman, who agrees to share 25% of the profits with the team on top of their rate of $12 per page. Kirby is hired as Timely’s art director for $75 a week.

June 21, 1990: Democrat and Chronicle (Rochester, NY), interview with Joe Simon by Robert Rowe

On December 20, Simon and Kirby’s Captain America Comics #1 goes on sale and reportedly sells nearly half a million copies. Subsequent issues sell upwards of one million copies per issue. The title is an unqualified success and Timely’s biggest seller to date. The series continues until 1949 and the character, with his trusty sidekick, Bucky, also appears in numerous other Timely comics.

1941

Stanley Martin Lieber’s first professional comic book writing appears in Captain America Comics #3, a two-page text piece entitled “Captain America Foils the Traitor’s Revenge.” It’s his first use of the pen name “Stan Lee,” but won’t be the last. “I hired Stan. [His] Uncle [Robert Solomon] brought him in and said, ‘This is Martin’s nephew’ (or whatever he was). Back then, comics had to have a minimum of two text pages in them for Second Class Mailing privileges. Nobody ever read that stuff, you know. So whoever came along, I’d give them a job of writing the text. JOE Simon:

1941: Captain America Comics #3 text story by Stan Lee, his first published work in comics.

Early 1940s photo at Coney Island: Joe Simon with his date, Jack and Roz Kirby, and unknown friends.

9

Stan thought he was so special when he was writing this stuff. To his credit, I think that writing was okay. “I thought he was a pesky but nice kid. I used to take him out all over. I didn’t guess what he would become—who could?”

because the guys at DC knew all about it, and it was all around the industry at the time.” 2007: Interview with Joe Simon, by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #76

Upon their departure, Stan Lee takes over as editor of the comics line for Martin Goodman. Kirby and Simon create hits at DC Comics, including the World War II sensation Boy Commandos.

2007: Interview with Joe Simon, by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #76

Late 1941

1942

Before completing their work on Captain America Comics #10, Timely’s accountant reveals to Kirby and Simon that they are being cheated out of promised profits from the title as originally negotiated with Goodman. “I was bitter about the way they took advantage of Jack and me on the original Captain America. We were supposed to be getting a percentage of the books. That’s why we left them. They guys were like cloak-and-suiters, you know? Keeping it from pushcart to pushcart in those days. Totally unethical. And sometimes... sometimes it was a mistake for them.” JOE Simon:

Lee enters the US Army in early 1942, serving first in the Signal Corps, and later in the Training Film Division, writing manuals and training films. Vincent Fago fills in as editor until Lee returns home. Kirby marries sweetheart Rosalind “Roz” Goldstein on May 23.

January 9, 1992: Asbury Park Press (NJ), Joe Simon interview by Mark Voger

I had to look up the expression “cloak-and-suiter” myself, and found it meant a small-timer who thinks only short-term, and often cost themselves money by making short-sighted or unethical decisions trying to save some coin.

1943

Kirby is drafted into the US Army on June 7, and will land on Omaha Beach in Normandy on August 23, 1944, two-anda-half months after D-Day. After serving in battle in the European Theater, Kirby is honorably discharged on July 20, 1945. Joe Simon enlists in the U.S. Coast Guard this year to fulfill his service commitment during World War II, and serves stateside.

1944

On February 5, Republic Studios releases the first installment of the 15-chapter movie serial, Captain America. The names of the two men who created the character are not listed in the credits.

pany in 1941, Kirby defect to the com comics after Simon & wartime hit. Ads that appear in DC Commandos, their big Boy on king wor S&K of accompanying a photo

By now, the duo are recognized throughout the industry as a top creative team in the field. Clandestinely, the partners contact Jack Liebowitz, co-owner of DC Comics, the industry’s top publisher, and negotiate a deal: $500 every month in return for 25 pages of comics (extra for any additional work). Covertly preparing their DC stories, Simon and Kirby’s secret deal is uncovered by Goodman and the two, after finishing their last issue of Captain America, are fired. Kirby assumes it is young Stan Lee who rats them out. “When we left there, Kirby had thought that Stan was responsible for spreading the news that we were working on other stuff, and he said, ‘If I ever see that guy again, I’m going to kill him’... but it had to be an open secret that we had signed a deal with DC, JOE Simon:

Lobby card for the 1944 Captain America serial.

10

Witness Protection

To get a sense of what Simon and Kirby were up against as freelancers, one needs to look no further than this 1947 pamphlet, that managed to completely rewrite history regarding the creation of Captain America. Was Lee just currying favor with Goodman, or did Martin direct him to write this fluff? Either way, no mention was made of the actual creators. But it does succinctly outline how the production process worked in comics at that time, including one important statement by Lee: “The editor is always the KEY MAN between the artist and the writer!”

11

Fall 1958

On September 8, Kirby’s Sky Masters of the Space Force syndicated newspaper strip debuts across the US. It runs through February 25, 1961, and appears December 24, 1958 Sky Masters of the Space Force comic strip, by Kirby, with Wally Wood inking. in some 325 newspapers at its Mainline concept Night peak. A promotional article appears in newspapers on September 7. Fighter, who can “walk up In September, Strange the sides of skyscrapers Worlds #1, Kirby’s first work with his amazing magnetic for Atlas after Maneely’s boots.” death, is published. On October 16, the In November, Simon Sky Masters court trial is and Kirby briefly reunite held in White Plains, New to produce The Double Life York. On December 3, of Private Strong for Archie Kirby loses the lawsuit, Comics. and is ordered to pay On December 11, damages. The whole Kirby learns Schiff is debacle has to make suing him for breach of Kirby skeptical of contract. In response, working with editors, Kirby countersues Schiff. especially without Joe Simon around to watch his back. As the comics As the year draws industry slowly starts to to a close, Lee and Kirby resurrect and revamp the recover throughout this 1950s Atlas cowboy title The Rawhide Kid, beginning a lively (albeit year, Kirby will draw short-lived) romp for the team in the western genre, which extends a wealth of monster into Gunsmoke Western, Two-Gun Kid, and Kid Colt Outlaw. stories for Strange Tales, Tales of Suspense, Tales Meanwhile, over at DC Comics, the try-out magazine The to Astonish, and Journey into Mystery. Brave & The Bold debuts the Justice League of America, a super-team consisting of the company’s top super-hero characters. After three “...they were putting out... Journey into Larry issues, Justice League is awarded its own title—a sign of sales success Mystery... Tales to Astonish.... I remember Jack Lieber: that Martin Goodman would notice. Kirby was usually doing the lead story, and Don Heck was there. Ditko used to do the story at the end of the books, and later he and Stan did Amazing Adult Early this year, Jack learns his wife Roz is pregnant with their Fantasy. At the time I had a room in Tudor City, and I was writfourth child. By summer, Kirby is producing art for Gilberton’s ing stories for Jack to draw. Jack was so fast, and I was learnClassics Illustrated line of educational comics. It’s a creatively unsating to write. isfying job he no doubt picked up due to the impending addition “I remember that Kirby was so fast he could draw faster to his family, and no prospects for better-paying work. Kirby only than I was writing! Stan would say to me, ‘Jack needs another produces a few frustrating assignments for Classics Illustrated, due script!’” to the editors’ meticulous demand for historical accuracy and seemOn any Atlas monster stories where Lee’s signature isn’t to be ingly endless revisions. found, it’s likely the story is dialogued by Larry Lieber or someone In September, daughter Lisa Kirby is born. With a new mouth else in the Bullpen—although the alliterative names of creatures like to feed, and the comics industry still in the doldrums, a new level of Fin Fang Foom screams Lee’s involvement on some level, at least in desperation may begin to set in. By Kirby’s recollection, he pitches plotting. “Stan made up the plot, and then he’d give it to me, and ideas to Marvel for new super-hero books, to get more work: I’d write the script ... I would follow from Stan’s plots.”

1959

1960

[1987] “The only thing I knew best was comics and I went back to Marvel and Marvel was in very poor straits—all comics were in poor straits... of course I didn’t change things in one day; but I knew that in a couple of months I could do it. And that’s where all your Fantastic Fours come from. That’s where Thor comes from. I took anything powerful that could sell a magazine—and I did.”

1999: Larry Lieber interviewed by Roy Thomas, from Alter Ego #2

In February, Simon and Kirby produce The Fly for Archie Comics. The genesis of the super-hero is related to the early ’50s development of the Silver Spider project, and will, in Kirby’s recollection, lead to his suggestion to Stan Lee about the concept of Spiderman. The Fly, like Spider-Man later, also has the ability to walk up and down walls, and likely is inspired by Kirby’s unused

Dec. 4, 1987 (published Jan 22, 1988): UCLA Daily Bruin interview, conducted by Ben Schwartz

18

1961 ky final S has Kirby’s e , H 5 . 2 t y in r ruar sees p ue to On Feb y strip on it, d own il y a e d n o s m r e is g t h in s f s a o o M ly l out over radual producing it chiff S been g f k o c a s J e s y n a e p p x o the e aving t uit loss. , and h s t pocket his law ll in” a , he’s “a depend on o w rse y r l o e t r e : tte compl a plan For be rtunes he has . his fo s, and ff. u t s Marvel any’s succes w ne mp ds with the co entum.” e stan ain mom litz th g b o o t t d e m e e s “I tried f w stuf The ne

The Blitz (another Kirby team strip) and Marvel’s FF. [1985] “I try to vary my characters. They may be stock [characters], I won’t deny that. That may be a formula, a personal formula, that I use unconsciously.”

l #134 ics Journa roth The Com yG b. 1990): nducted by Gar Fe d he co 89 (publis interview mmer 19

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Su

Spring 1961

Lee’s two-page plot synopsis for the first issue of Fantastic Four is the subject of much controversy, which will be explored later in this book. It centers around its authenticity, but more so, about whether it is created before or after Lee and Kirby discuss the new Fantastic Four concept. As much as I’m trying to avoid speculation here, I’m about to sprinkle a little bit in, based on the historical record, to hopefully add some food for thought to the dispute:

As the Atlas’ monster creatures are slowly losing their popularity, something else is occurring that will change comics forever: The beginnings of the Marvel Universe, which Lee recounts numerous times over the years, much like this: [2009] “At the time, DC Comics had a book called The Justice League, about a group of superheroes, that was selling very well. So in 1961 we did The Fantastic Four. I tried to make the characters different in the sense that they had real emotions and problems. And it caught on. After that, Martin [Goodman] asked me to come up with some other superheroes... All of the characters at Marvel were my ideas...”

[1986] “I came in with presentations. I’m not gonna wait around for conferences. I said, ‘This is what you have to do.’ I came in with Spiderman, the Hulk, and the Fantastic Four. I didn’t fool around. I said, ‘You’ve got to do super-heroes.’ I took Spiderman from the Silver Spider—a script by Jack Oleck that we hadn’t used in Mainline. That’s what gave me the idea for Spiderman. I’ve still got that script .”

2009: “How I Did It: Stan Lee of Marvel Comics” by Stan Lee, published in Inc. Magazine

But Kirby will recall that pivotal time very differently. “Jack told me that he came up with all of the titles at once. He called it a ‘blitzkrieg’. He felt if he put out a bunch of new books at once, it would make a splash. He had FF, Spiderman, The X-Men, Thor, and Hulk. “[He probably said this] in the early ’70s. I can’t recall why it came up. I just remember Jack was very adamant about how he had to keep the doors open and how it required a complete revamp.” Steve Sherman:

May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Feb. 2018: Steve Sherman e-mail to Patrick Ford, and June 2018: E-mail to John Morrow

TURNiNG POiNT! Sometime between April-May, Fantastic Four #1 is conceived by Lee and Kirby, greenlighted by Martin Goodman, and drawn by Kirby. Jack has said he had been pushing for more super-heroes at the time:

June 1961: Kirby celebrates at his son Neal’s Bar Mitzvah.

When Kirby makes these comments in the 1980s, they raise a lot of eyebrows of skeptical fans—but then the unused Jack Oleck/C.C. Beck “Silver Spider” story surfaces, giving it some credibility. When considered at this point in the chronology, this quote instead raises some interesting questions. After all, wouldn’t Lee need to have some sort of visual presentation for Martin Goodman, to get approval before his skeptical publisher would take a risk on canceling existing books, and trying something new? For a new character, wouldn’t Jack have to submit something for his editor to approve, before starting on a full story?

[1985] “...there was a rigid caste system between the editors and the fellows who turn the magazines out, and the publisher. There was no such thing as an artist or a writer dealing with the publisher. The structure was rigid. That’s why I say that Joe [Simon] was valuable in his respect because he was able to deal with the publishers.”

[1969] “I tried to work it out with Stan, to hint about super-heroes. There were a few still going but they didn’t have the big audience they had. There was a thing I was involved in, The Fly, which got a reaction and because of that I told Stan that there might be a hope for super-heroes. ‘Why don’t we try Captain America again?’ I kept harping on it and Marvel was quiet in those days, like every other office, and then things began to pick up and gain momentum.” Early 1969: Kirby interview, conducted by Mark Hebert (published Nov.-Dec. 1976 in The Nostalgia Journal #30–31)

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Lee has claimed repeatedly that Goodman heard Justice League of America was selling well at DC Comics, and Martin instructed him to create a team of super-heroes. Interestingly, there are marked similarities to the respective origins of DC’s Challengers of the Unknown

Consider this scenario: Since Kirby doesn’t have Joe Simon to serve as a direct line to Goodman, 19

says “The Hulk Is Coming!” And sure enough, in November, Jack draws The Incredible Hulk #1—the same month Stan wrote that blurb. “I was there when [my father] was creating [the Incredible Hulk]. He called me over, and said, ‘I want you to see a new super-hero.’ He said, ‘This is the Incredible Hulk. What do you think of him?’ I said, ‘He is incredible’.” Susan Kirby:

October 25, 2010: Susan Kirby’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

A wonderful (and depressing) example of how little original art is valued in the Marvel offices at this point, is that in 1964, Kirby’s cover art for Hulk #1 will be cut up, retouched, and reused for a house ad in Tales to Astonish #59. It’s also been speculated that, for 1963’s Fantastic Four Annual #1, the original art for the first 13 pages of FF #1 will be cut up and reused, to reprint their origin in the Annual. Despite Lee’s in-print claims of being inundated with mail, more fake filler letters appear in Fantastic Four #4; one from “S. Goldberg” of Forest Hills, New York (Stan Goldberg is Marvel’s colorist), and another from “Jim Moony” of Hollywood, California (comics great Jim Mooney, Stan’s close friend) who ironically asks if Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are real or imaginary. Stan replies: “We’re real enough, Jimmy boy! But every time Kirby poses for a picture, the camera lens breaks! And whenever Lee starts to write about himself, he uses the word ‘I’ and ‘Me’ so much that the typewriter quits!”

Though it may’ve occurred earlier, by December Jack Kirby submits his presentation for Spiderman, the idea for which is loosely based on Jack Oleck and C.C. Beck’s earlier unused “Silver Spider” strip from Simon & Kirby’s defunct Mainline company. The concept is approved, and Kirby is assigned to draw the origin story. Kirby will be drawing Fantastic Four #5 this month, but a new inker is about to come on board, albeit briefly:

Fantastic Four #4 letter column, written by Stan Lee

“Before Stan called me to ink Jack on Fantastic Four #5, I never knew The Fantastic Four existed. I lived up here in New York, in the Catskill Mountains, and I never went down to the city at that time... Everything was done by mail... I didn’t know who or what the characters were when Stan called me up one day and said, ‘Joe, I’ve got a book here by Jack Kirby. I’d like you to ink it, if you could. I can’t find anybody to ink it.’ So I said, ‘Send it up.’ I didn’t even ask him what it was, so when it came in the mail, it was The Fantastic Four #5 and I was dumbfounded by the great art and the characters. The Thing, Reed Richards, Sue Storm, and Johnny were great.” Joe Sinnott:

2006: Interview with Joe Sinnott by Tim Lasiuta, for Brush Strokes With Greatness

24

1962 pies of ,000 co hed is s 19,740 l l l b e u s p l ve 1,158 year. ar, Mar y produces single b a This ye ir in K . t s s ic e m b o l c a st five its son the fir his per (no pletes m n o pages-a c m y irb ider ee. point, K rsion of Sp L is n h a t t e By in to S f his v m o e h s t e g s pa . Ditko urn k them ) and t o to in “The Fly,” k hyphen it D o teve arity t signs S Ditko is s simil Lee as ed, and o Lee it t t c e s j n e io it. r g is in ment it w a h hic redr after w the job of given

Personal Best “We were talking... about Thor’s costume and he was doing it for the first time... I had made some comment about the big circles on the front of the character and, you know, again my father was... jokingly referring to visual impact, other than possible reality of what a true Viking might have worn.”

Journey into Mystery #101.

June 30, 2010: Neal Kirby’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

[1970] “I got a kick out of doing the Thor legend, which I researched. I kind of did my version of it. They thought that Thor should have red hair and a beard, and that’s not my Thor. So I just went my own way.”

January 1962

As excitement over Marvel begins to spread among comics’ budding fan community, both Kirby and Lee take time out to correspond with letter writers: “Complete original comic magazine pages

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

At this point, in at least some instances, there are still full scripts being written, for artists to work from before laying pencil to paper. Lee may not’ve had time to write them, but his brother did.

are difficult to obtain since they all wind up at the engravers and storehouses outside the vicinity of the publishing house... The size of the individual panels should depend on the artist’s dramatic sense. Actually, you will find that scenes with the most movement will demand larger space.”

Jan. 1962: Jack Kirby’s letter to fan Richard “Grass” Green, published in Alter Ego #15

“...Jack Kirby and I have many ideas which we think are somewhat original for future issues.” Jan. 8, 1962: Stan Lee letter to fan Jerry Bails [shown at right]

Future bullpenner Roy Thomas has his first fan letter printed in Fantastic Four #5, saying: “FF #3 was excellent! The feud angle made it all the better though, particularly the ending. The continuity in FF is all that could possibly be asked. I’ve just subscribed to FF for two years—I hope it runs much longer than that.” When a reader asks whether the FF should keep their human identities secret, Stan’s reply shows his early intentions: “...remember us saying in an earlier issue that we wanted our stories to be different, and perhaps a bit more logical?” This letter column contains Stan’s first use of the phrase “face front!”. Fantastic Four #5 letter column, written by Stan Lee

February 1962

Jack Kirby draws Tales to Astonish #35 and Journey into Mystery #83 (the debuts of Ant-Man and Thor, respectively), and Steve Ditko draws Amazing Fantasy #15, having taken over the Spiderman strip from Kirby.

“My father was always very interested, he loved mythology, he loved studying religion and history, just knew all about it, his bookshelves were just loaded with that kind of stuff... we would have long discussions about it. “I remember kind of standing by his drawing board... he had... either Thor or one of the other characters that had big horns coming out of the helmet, and I said a real Viking wouldn’t have big horns coming out of his helmet... my father kind of laughed and made some statement that, well, ‘this isn’t... Viking reality, it is a visual impact,’ so he gave me a little art lesson there. Neal Kirby:

25

world of early comics fandom. On September 12, under direction from Stan (or Martin Goodman), Stan’s secretary Judy Walsh writes a personal letter, telling fan Mike Tuohey, “Re: your idea about our giving out examples of our original copies of art work and scripts, we’d like very much to do just that, but can’t just yet; maybe later.”

“Perhaps since we are unable to send you the samples you wish, your sorrow might be appeased a little if this letter is signed by the same hands that, after all, wrote the stories you admire and drew the action you enjoyed so much.”

September 12, 1962 letter from Judy Walsh to fan Mike Tuohey

October 25, 1962 Marvel office letter to fan Mike Tuohey

The letter is autographed by both Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Late in the month, Stan’s secretary writes to Mike Tuohey once again, giving him fanzine fodder: “Stan Lee is introducing a new character in Tales of Suspense— Iron Man! This goes on sale December 10. “There is a new war mag in the making—Sergeant Fury and his Howling Commandos, on sale Lee shows inker Dick Ayers how to redraw Kirby’s legs sticking out of the trash can, March 5th. on this panel from Fantastic Four #14. “There is now an entire mag devoted to the Amazing Spiderman, on sale December 10. “And lastly, starting with ish #91 of Journey into Mystery, Joe Sinnott will be drawing Thor.”

Romance comics weren’t immune to Lee’s watchful eye , as he tells Al Har tley to revise this lov ely lassie, due to Kirb y having drawn her too old-looking to be a teenager in Lov e Romances #103: “Sometimes, as in this panel, Kirby makes gals too oldlooking--she sho uld be about 17.”

October 1962

Probably to ward off other requests like Mike Tuohey’s, Lee includes this mention in the FF #13 letter column: “We aren’t able to give out original scripts or art at this time, but hope to sometime in the future. “Once again we want to thank the hundreds of loyal fans whose interesting letters can’t be printed due to lack of space. Please rest assured that either Stan, or Jack, or both read each and every one personally...”

October 29, 1962 letter from Judy Walsh to fan Mike Tuohey; lack of hyphens is in original version

December 1962

Stan takes his family to his wife’s parents’ home near Newcastle in England for the holidays. Former model Joan makes the front page of the local paper, in an article that calls Stan “an American publisher and newspaperman”; it appears she isn’t keen on telling people her husband creates comic books for a living.

Fantastic Four #13 letter column, written by Stan Lee

The letter column salutations on Hulk #6 change from “Dear Editor” to “Dear Stan and Jack”, but issue #6 is drawn by Ditko, something that would surely be known at the time the letter column is being assembled. This could indicate that Kirby planned to return to Hulk after taking one issue off, had the series not been cancelled to make way for Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos on Marvel’s limited schedule—or that letters are being read and answered by Kirby as well. Someone at Marvel (it’s not signed by secretary Judy Walsh, but instead just says “F.F.”) responds to fan Mike Tuohey’s new fan letter with a personal note: “We are really sorry that we don’t have any original artwork or scripts to send you, but we have uses for all of this work, and are unable to send it out—much as we’d like to. If there is ever a time when the artwork or scripts are available, you will certainly be among the first to receive a sample.

Dec. 24, 1962: The Evening Chronicle, Newcastle upon Tyne

Meanwhile, back stateside, Steve Ditko draws Strange Tales #110, where Dr. Strange debuts. As Lee will describe it: [1963] “...’twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered we’d give it a chance...”. Jan. 9, 1963: Stan Lee letter to fan Jerry Bails

Unlike Lee and Goodman at Marvel, over at DC Comics, editor Julie Schwartz routinely gave away original artwork from his comics, to fans who wrote the most interesting fan letters, or offered suggestions for their comics. Strange Tales #110 splash page by Steve Ditko.

32

1963 ut by 2 outp of ing 196 k a p e o r c ies ecord-b 30,000 r ,5 a 2 2 r e s Aft sell r. Marvel mics this yea Kirby, his new its co e c w vin s to allo an con m s d w o e o o G t N utput t o Martin Independen y l h t utor eir mon is opens up h t e s distrib a h e T to incr ust 8. branch Marvel ad of j Lee to s, inste r Kirby and e -Men, l X it t e h 11 t o nities f per-groups-- lly bring u t r o p op ina su ce to f h new . a chan out wit merica s--and A r e in g a n apt Ave back C

All-Out Assault you the first three pages, tell you who the character was you were fighting, and give you the last couple of pages so you’d know how it ended. And in between you’d put about 15 pages of stuff... And at the time, I thought, ‘Oh my God! This’ll never work!’ But then I’d sit down and start to figure different things that these types of characters could do. Then when I went back to working from a script years and years later, sometimes I felt like I was a little closed in. I got used to the synopsis. “Stan started giving me synopses about 1962. It could have been 1963. I don’t think he started it with me as early as with some of the others up there. I’m sure Jack was doing stuff from synopsis a lot earlier than that.”

January 1963

1982: Don Heck interviewed by Richard Howell for Comics Feature #21

In another sign of how much Stan Lee is relying on his top artists to help steer the line, he extends his comments about Kirby being a de facto co-editor to Steve Ditko as well: “We regret that no letters can be answered personally, but we will print as Steve Ditko in the early 1960 s. many as possible each issue and you may rest assured that either Stan Lee or Steve Ditko, or both, carefully read each and every letter received here at the Web!”

Stan continues to correspond with Jerry Bails, one of the prominent names in fandom: “You’re right about Al Hartley’s art work not being right for Thor. Actually, Al specializes in teen-age strips (he does the Patsy Walker mag for us) and simply pinch-hit Jrny. Into Mystery because it was an emergency—Jack was busy with an FF ish that was late, Joe Sinnott was tied up with another job, etc.”

Amazing Spider-Man #3 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Ditko recounted the usual working process in one of his own essays years later:

[2015] “Normally when I took in a penciled [Spider-Man] or [Dr. Strange] job, Stan and I would go over every panel; he’d note anything he didn’t understand or something needed, wanted, more detail, etc. I’d mark any needed, wanted, changes, correction, addition, to fix on the side of the penciled page I was to ink. Plus, I gave Stan typewriting paper showing my rough idea of what was being said in the story broken down into panels. Stan never wanted me to write any actual dialogue or names. That goes back to our 5-page [story] days. “Writing, editing, dialogue, sound effects, captions, were all Stan’s division of labor at Marvel.” Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

At least one of those artists initially struggles with working via the Marvel Method, instead of from a full script: “I’d been so used to working from scripts, and then Stan said, ‘I’m going to give you a synopsis.’ Well, Jack Kirby was used to something like that because he was also a writer... he did some terrific stuff with all of these different characters, like back when he was doing Fighting American and all the rest of his early stuff, so it was easy for him. For me it was suddenly that someone says, ‘You’re going to do it!’ I said, ‘I’ll try it, but, I mean, it’s your gamble, not mine. I’m going to get paid for this.’ Then we started to work out the system, and then after a while Stan Lee used to, like, give Don Heck:

33

The Human Torch and Thing have a volatile relationship in FF Annual #1, but Lee and Kirby’s isn’t showing any sign of strain at this point.

1964 00 27,709,0 tion sells a arvel expect M e , h r t a e h arly wit This y g a ne omics, in c w o s h it s f , o 5 6 s 19 ie . cop for years 00,000 e in 3 64 of 32,0 creas ed in 19 50% In b u p lish ). e r a ers e year by cov a singl 102 Kir ts the ost in conduc with (The m in We n w e ie L rv , fan ra inte der #6, ly 1964 rvel-e In ear own Ma e, Masquera n k t out s earlie fanzin in it ab or his othing s. ic m o Kirby f ly, there’s n C vel d or Mar but sa work f Kirby’s

The Build-Up cringe, practically cry—when the shelves got too crowded with artwork and scripts... we would just throw them out. I mean, the artwork was considered like, who needed it anymore? The artists didn’t ask for it back. It was Ditko contribu ted the cover like throwing out a script ... art for Len We mimeographe in’s d 1964 fanzin e Aurora #5. We threw out tons of artwork. There were all these things about all the Kirby art that people thought Marvel was holding onto, but we just used to toss it. And feel good there was a clean shelf to fill up again.”

At some point in 1964, Stan Lee sits down for an interview with fans, including inker Vince Colletta’s son. The reference to Captain America getting his own title could indicate this takes place prior to August, when Tales of Suspense #59 goes on sale (if Lee takes this question to mean a literal standalone title, vs. Cap’s shorter stores in ToS), but I’m dating it here since it likely wouldn’t have taken that long for this interview to see print.

2011: Flo Steinberg interview with Dewey Cassell

Q: Are you planning to give Captain America his own mag? LEE: There is only one thing stopping us. Jack [Kirby] doesn’t have the time to draw it, and I don’t have the time to write it. But, sooner or later, whether it be a year from now, or ten years from now, we will find the time to do it! It’s a funny thing with Jack’s artwork. You never know just how good Jack really is. If he gets a good inker, he looks good. If he gets a bad inker, he looks bad. But Jack Kirby’s penciling is so magnificent—no inker can really do it justice! Q: Do you save any of your original manuscripts? LEE: As a matter of fact, there really are no manuscripts to save! The way I do it now, I write the story in synopsis form, and then give it to the artist. He pencils the drawings, and I get it back again. Then, I write the words above the panels, and these are eventually lettered in. So, we work so fast that there almost aren’t any real manuscripts. Q: What gives you ideas for stories? LEE: Actually, there is very little inspiration involved. You just sit down and figure it out. Do I need a new villain? What haven’t I used before? What do the readers like? Q: What happens to the original artwork after a comic is finished? LEE: We send it to a warehouse, and then it just sits there. Crusader #1 interview with Stan Lee, by David Castromuovo, Peter Ricciardi, and Frank Colletta (published Dec. 1964-Jan. 1965)

Flo Steinberg’s account of the disposition of original art pages at least partially confirms this last statement: FLO STEiNBERG:

“The books came out, and, in fact, sometimes—this makes people

Jack’s margin notes are all over Dr. Doom’s origin in Fantastic Four Annual #2.

42

In the first half of this year, Steve Ditko comments on the rushed look of Jack’s work, in light of how much Stan Lee is assigning him—and expresses his admiration for Kirby: “It stands

and Ditko, Stan says, “There’s no telling what our next ish of Spiderman will be... but you can be sure they’ll come up with something...”

to reason that Jack’s work tends to look hurried, because it is! Anyone who is that buried under work will surely not take the extra time necessary to make it perfect. Jack’s a real genius.”

Amazing Spider-Man #16 letter column, written by Stan Lee

April 1964

1964: Steve Ditko, Rocket’s Blast And The Comic Collector #31, published June-July 1964

Referencing the Fantastic Four #29 collage by Kirby, Lee quips: “Jolly Jack was too lazy to draw a whole detailed moon landscape...”

January 1964

Jack Kirby draws Avengers #6, another early example where he begins leaving margin notes for Stan Lee to follow when dialoguing stories. A letter writer praises Stan’s writing but gives lukewarm compliments to Kirby’s art, and the response (which apparently is by Kirby) is: “Some help you are! Now Stan will NEVER

Fantastic Four #31 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby is trying to stretch his artistic boundaries by incorporating collage into his work—and he can certainly draw a landscape

let me put my name first!”

Fantastic Four #28 letter column, written by Jack Kirby?

Plans are afoot for the summer, but it’s still a bit early to finalize them, as Stan alludes: “We are definitely going to publish a Spiderman annual!... We don’t know the exact content yet because we haven’t written it yet! In fact, we don’t know when we’ll get the time to write it.” Amazing Spider-Man #14 letter column, written by Stan Lee

February 1964

About the new Special Announcements Section in each issue, Lee adds a little self-deprecating humor: “It’s the place where we can let our hair down and talk with you, straight from the shoulder. (Of course, Jack has more hair to let down than Stan does! Stan just kinda combs the fuzz!)” Avengers #6 letter column, written by Stan Lee

In reference to X-Men #6, Stan says, “...we don’t know how Stan and Jack do it! Not only do they feature Magneto and his Evil Mutants, co-starring Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, but they’ve built the story around comicdom’s greatest roving guest star—the sensational Sub-Mariner!” Amazing Spider-Man #15 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Spider-Man #16’s letter column has perhaps the earliest mention of acceptance from the college crowd, and the appearance of an article about Marvel in the Colgate University college newspaper. Kirby also begins drawing Fantastic Four Annual #2 this month, which features his margin notes for Lee on both stories, one of which is the origin of Dr. Doom.

March 1964

“While this column is being written, Stan and Jack are still working on [Fantastic Four Annual #2], burning the midnight oil to make it the most talked-about mag they’ve ever created!” Avengers #6, the first issue with Kirby’s visible margin notes for Lee.

Fantastic Four #30 letter column, written by Stan Lee

The two main stories are mentioned by title, though it says some of the other features are “still top secret”, likely meaning they haven’t been decided upon yet at the time of this writing. But once again, in FF #30, Kirby is portrayed in a bumbling manner by Lee: Stan: “Hey, Jack—do we still publish Westerns?” Jack: “You’re askin’ ME, Stan? I can’t even remember how many fingers to give the Thing!” And in perhaps another sign of less interaction between Lee

more quickly than meticulously creating a collage of it. This could easily have set him off—just as he begins drawing the new Captain America series in Tales of Suspense #59. The first decisive indicator of Ditko’s solo plotting on SpiderMan comes to light, as Lee admits “...next ish is gonna be real different! The whole plot was dreamed up by Sunny Steve and it was just nutty enough for Stan to okay it!” Amazing Spider-Man #17 letter column, written by Stan Lee

43

doing layouts only. If Jack doesn’t already have growing resentments, no doubt doing layouts for other artists would’ve caused some. The best-case scenario goes like this: After a short plotting conference with Stan, Jack is forced to develop this brief conversation into a full story, figuring out how to pace it to fit the ten-page format, and provide in-depth margin notes for both the finished penciler and Stan to go by, so they will understand the story he is trying to convey. For all this effort, for which he applies his full imagination, he gets only a small percentage of his normal penciling pay (reportedly one-third to one-half his normal rate). It’s no wonder his layouts are simple Mike Gartland’s lightboxed version of Kirby’s original design for the Juggernaut, which was still visible in blue pencil under block figures—and yet what he turns in is enough for a pasted-up stat of the final panel of X-Men #12. Since Jack didn’t tend to use blue pencil, this suggests that Alex Toth also worked on the original Juggernaut figure. Marvel to produce additional strips off his creativity, and continue the look and feel that he has established. The only credit he receives is “Layouts by Jack Kirby.” As the year closes out, Jack Kirby creates a presentation for a This will continue throughout 1965, both in Astonish, and in new spy series, which becomes the debut of “Nick Fury, Agent of Tales of Suspense, doing layouts on the Captain America feature. S.H.I.E.L.D.” in Strange Tales #135. He will draw the first issue in Many of the credits boxes say “Story: Stan Lee.” But is a brief January. He also fills in by drawing the pivotal first and last pages for conversation with Lee, where not much more is decided than “Hulk Sgt. Fury #18, which features the death of a supporting character. fights the Leader,” deserving of a solo credit for Stan for coming up Kirby also does layouts this month for X-Men #12, another with the story? It’s easy to see how Kirby doesn’t look too kindly on full-issue that he creates and designs the new villain The Juggernaut this as a creator. When later in life, Jack says, “I didn’t write the credit for—but at a reduced page rate. boxes,” this is the kind of thing he is talking about. And while Ditko is providing a drawing for Jerry Bails to use in “Our next, and most important announcement is a tough Comic Reader #33 (published January 1965), in an obvious dig about one to write now, because we haven’t worked out all the final Steve Ditko’s plotting, Stan Lee writes of Spider-Man #25: “This details of it yet... for our next ish... there are going to be some may not have been the greatest story ever written, but it sure big changes made in the line-up of heroes who now make up our had more sub-plots than you could shake a Daily Bugle at!” roster!”

December 1964

Letters page for Amazing Spider-Man #25 written by Stan Lee

Avengers #15 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby provides layouts and extensive margin notes for Avengers #16— for a full 20-page story, instead of a shorter, less-prominent 10-pager. So he is undoubtedly involved in the planning for the line-up changes. Meanwhile, Jack’s margin notes from Avengers #16 show he had major input on Stan Lee hands the story. off the writing for the Human Torch/Thing story in Strange Tales #132 to Larry Ivie, and only credits himself as editor. Ivie just writes this single story, because of Stan’s displeasure with the end result, as evidenced by his cover blurb which proclaims it: “Possibly the nuttiest, most mixed-up yarn you’ll read all year!”, and the letters page where he rather insultingly states: “...can you figure out exactly what our Torch and Thing story was all about? We have to admit it had us pretty confused! We read it over and over again and never could quite understand what the villain was really after! If it wasn’t too embarrassing, we’d offer a no-prize to anyone who could explain our own story to us. Oh well—!” As for Dr. Strange, the next-issue blurb alludes to Ditko’s solo plotting on #133: “...we’ll bet you’ll never guess where Dr. Strange will find himself (we couldn’t guess until secretive Stevie told us!).” Strange Tales #132 letter column, written by Stan Lee

But Strange Tales #133 doesn’t credit Ditko for the plot.

entation, which Jim Steranko

A page from Kirby’s spy pres

50

t at Marvel.

eventually inked as his tryou

1965 ing on s jump blisher --and u n p o w g e a n bandw tion to o c dman a r o e e o r h G in super an TV show-- oks, to ’s l e v r bo Ma Batm ith new wsstands. coming e up w the up off ne to com d e e e d L w s o and tell ting cr mans om get e Inhu d Coal h t p o keep fr evel name Kirby d inally ure Lee and anther (orig f which feat . o P h k ot atman b B Blac ), o y t b by Kir similar ibution, and y l l a Tiger u r vis ist acter dded. vel’s d a char ls Mar to be a books contro C w D e n t bu ny llow a won’t a

Collaborations’ End

January 1965

Kirby’s creative influence continues to be felt across the line, even on books he isn’t drawing. The cover of Avengers #19 features a standalone Kirby image of the new character The Swordsman, surrounded by after-the-fact circles with Don Heckdrawn heads of the Avengers. Remove those Heck heads, and I’m convinced this is Jack’s concept sketch of the character; since Kirby’s original art is altered, it would’ve been done prior to the character’s headgear being changed for the story. Another such example of Kirby influencing other books is related by Lee: “Wanna know how Stiltman turned out to be the villain he is? When we first kicked the idea around in the bullpen, wistful Wally [Wood] started sketching a fella wearing eight-foot tall stilts. Then, smilin’ Stan came over to kibitz and suggested making his stilts at least 15 feet high! By the time we were done, jolly Jack Kirby cinched the whole thing by saying: ‘Next thing we know, you jokers will have him high-stepping over a skyscraper!’ Well, that did it!” Daredevil #8 letter column, written by Stan Lee

h for Daredevil.

Wally Wood’s early Stiltman sketc

se tho y!

t un irb So it’s underCo es, K gi g i p standable, with his workload, that Kirby would make errors in the crunch of deadlines, as Lee pointed out to fans: “Wanna know a secret? (Don’t tell Jack we told you!) We were all set to send this month’s strips to the engraver when we noticed something. Our green-skinned glamour-puss had only four fingers and toes! Patiently, calmly, lovingly, we tried to explain to jellyhead Jack that it’s the Thing who has four digits—ol’ Hulky has five! But, by that time, his baby blues were concentrating on the next F.F. mag, and we had lost him again! But don’t worry... we fixed it in time!”

Tales of Suspense #69 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby made this same mistake earlier on Avengers #2, shown above. Stan’s own, somewhat exaggerated account of the creation process reflects a little of what his experience must be like at the Marvel offices: “Producing these stories is a pretty lonely business—we lock ourselves up in a quiet room, writing and drawing furiously, hoping to get as much work done as possible before the phone rings, or our bullpen buddies start kibitzing.” In response to a letter writer suggesting Marvel bring back the Golden Age hero The Destroyer, Lee responds: “As for the Destroyer, he was a hero whom we featured so many 51

Avengers #19; the Swordsman is just one of many characters Kirby is contributing to books he isn’t penciling.

Announcing Romita would draw an issue of Daredevil guest-starring Spider-Man, prior to Ditko’s resignation, lends more credibility to the idea that Stan is looking for a way to push Ditko out, or at least not have to work with him on Spider-Man any longer. (The more jaded among us will see echoes of the Romita Spidey try-out in the 1970s chapter of this book, when Lee has John Buscema do an issue of Thor, breaking Kirby’s uninterrupted streak just before his departure from Marvel.) As Stan compiles the letter column for Amazing Spider-Man #37, all the salutations are abruptly changed from “Dear Stan and Steve” to just “Dear Stan,” and there is no mention of Ditko in any of the letters, even though he has one more issue to go. In Strange Tales #145, a verbose letter writer who’s studying occult sciences at Columbia University asks (as close as I can come to putting it into layman’s terms) how much “Dear Stan” enjoys doing Dr. Strange as opposed to other Marvel characters. Stan’s response: “...we always get a kick out of writing and drawing Doc Strange—perhaps it’s because he’s somewhat different than the average super-hero...” Any mention of Ditko has been judiciously edited out here. This month, Kirby does layouts for Tales to Astonish #81, which features his documented design for the villain Boomerang. In the letter column for Fantastic Four #51, Stan Lee solicits ideas for the Silver Surfer’s origin from readers, as a contest. Surely Jack has his own ideas for the Surfer’s origin; or has Jack already shared his vision of the character as a being of energy that always existed, and Stan doesn’t find this satisfactory? As the year winds down, the October National Observer article about Marvel is picked up by United Media, a large newspaper syndication service that handles 150 comics and editorial columns worldwide. Titled “You’d Never Know New Comic Books” and written by Dave Burgin, it features an image of Spider-Man #34’s cover. This article runs in papers across the country, and not all on the same date, giving Lee a wider audience to spread the gospel according to Marvel Comics. This article remains part of the NEA news service, and is published in numerous papers throughout 1966; I’ve found it as early as December 30, 1965 in the Arlington Times News (Marysville, Washington), and as late as June 24, 1966 in a Springfield, Missouri newspaper—more than six months later. As far as the general public is concerned, the Marvel Age is officially here, and Stan Lee is the one who brought it about. But that New York Herald Tribune interview is about to become a pivotal nail in the coffin of Kirby and Lee’s collaboration.

Kirby’s concept drawing for the villain Boomerang, introduced in Tales to Astonish #81.

Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I’ll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. He won’t let anybody else ink his drawings either. He just drops off the finished pages with notes at the margins and I fill in the dialogue. I never know what he’ll come up with next, but it’s interesting to work that way.” Stan’s comment about Ditko here is critical to understanding their fractured relationship at this point. If this interview takes place before Ditko quit, it’d be ill-advised for him to say this, unless he wanted Ditko to see it in print and resign. And if, as it seems, he makes these comments knowing Ditko has already left, it’s either Stan venting his feelings about it without the public—or Kirby—knowing Ditko quit (in a rather petty way, as if he’s preparing an excuse to use once it’s public knowledge that Ditko is gone), or at the very least it’d ensure Ditko doesn’t change his mind and come back. Either way, the sense I get is that other than the inconvenience of having to find a new artist, Stan really doesn’t mind no longer having to battle with Ditko on the strip’s direction, and having to give him a plotting credit.

Kirby poses with a photostat of his cover art for Tales of Suspense #76. That stat would’ve been in-house in late 1965, so if taken then, this is possibly a publicity shot done in conjunction with Lee and Kirby’s New York Herald Tribune interview.

68

1966 of the episode l air, il e first w h t , s 12 ie ser #49 uary On Jan t Batman TV tastic Four s n e a W F y a d Adam e m a y the s oes on sale. t roughl g il firs y O’Ne , is year d Denn h n t a s h ic el Com Goodwin. riedric Gary F ing for Marv hie ork by Arc les begin w be followed el’s Sa v o r t a M n , o 6 6 o so t 19 g t u in rougho crease, climb And Th sold. e to in continu illion copies m 3 3

Ragnarok authenticity of the FF #1 synopsis, there’s simply no hard evidence to support this theory.

Publicity shot similar to Kirby’s on the previous page. It matches a later 1966 photo in this chapter, so all three may’ve been done for upcoming articles in Esquire or the Chicago Sun-Times. Either way, it confirms Lee was including Kirby in Marvel’s publicity in 1966.

“I’m not gonna take anything away from Stan. He was a talented man. He did well with the books, with putting in the words and things. He was always very friendly with us... I think we went to Stan’s house once. We met Stan’s wife Joan a couple of times. She was a very sweet lady. She didn’t get mixed up with the comics too much. She didn’t go to the conventions like I did.” RoZ Kirby:

This year begins an era when Lee’s assistants may’ve occasionally been writing some of the letters page responses and Bullpen Bulletins, to lighten his editorial workload. Since Roy Thomas confirms that Lee continues actively doing much of that editorial work through 1970—and at the very least will read, edit, and approve it—I’m still attributing these quotes to Stan, as the overseeing “voice” of Marvel Comics in the 1960s. By early this year, Marvel’s presence in the media has grown tremendously. According to the Bullpen Bulletins page in Thor #130 (which Lee would’ve written in February), Tom Dunn of CBS News and Mike Wallace of CBS Radio have recently interviewed Stan. Also, more than a hundred newspapers will have run articles on Marvel, including the Chicago Daily News, the Akron Beacon Journal, The Topeka State Journal, The Altoona Mirror, The Milwaukee Journal, the Beckley Post-Herald and Register, Radio-Television Daily, and the New York Post. While many are simply re-running late 1965’s syndicated article, it’s still an impressive amount of coverage. In one such article, reflecting back on the early days of 1960s Marvel, Stan Lee quips what is becoming his trademark recollection: “I was bored with writing the same sort of thing for over 20 years, and I decided to write the kind of story I would like to read. I figured that today’s kids were more sophisticated and would like a more sophisticated and offbeat type of story.”

December 12, 1995: Roz Kirby interview conducted by John Morrow for Jack Kirby Collector #10

“Roz was the perfect mate for Jack; protective, caring, always at his side. I couldn’t imagine him being married to any other woman. The rift between Stan and Jack was so incredible because they started with such an exciting thing. “They had the first big write-up in the magazine section of the New York Herald Tribune. The reporter wrote something like, ‘Stan came into the room—this slim, Rex Harrison lookalike with blah, blah, blah,’ and Jack Kirby was a roly-poly man who looked like he wore a girdle. When Roz and Jack read that the next morning they thought Stan had given him that, but of course it had nothing to do with Stan—nothing at all, but their hurt must have been intense. I believe that’s when that rift first started. Roz never got over it, until the very end when we talked. “It was so horrendous of that man to write such a thing, but none of us had a chance to read it beforehand. I was always amazed the newspaper editor allowed such a cruel and unfair comment to appear. I think that article that put Jack Kirby down bothered Stan more than anything ever written or said about Stan.” Joan Lee:

1966: Cleveland Press article by Don Thompson

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

TURNiNG POiNT! January 1966

From this point on, Lee seems much more concerned with giving Kirby credit in public appearances and interviews, now that Jack

On January 9, the New York Herald Tribune article appears, causing a major in space since been somewhere out rift in the Kirby/Lee relationship. Stan Lee “The Silver Surfer has ng Earth,” begins Galactus from destroyi stop “I don FF the ed help he ’t plot receives an angry phone call this morning bring him back?” Steve Spide Lee. “Why don’t we r-M D y. the st itko, the art an any m “Ummh,” says Kirb d, is in some from Jack’s wife Roz Kirby, livid about her ories. o is re t, . has b Thing’s blind girlfrien I gu until sa Lee “Suppose Alicia, the adison les sta ess I’ll leav een doing comes to help her.” er -M Surf tra er ul Silv the g an rt e ot so husband’s portrayal in the Yorker, horsy kind of trouble. And up. popula to slip. Sin him alone native New rison. He’s got that g as he gets warmed a g urin r, c e is gest , e n and D e. ng 43 iu S itko pid so the starts paci Har -pitched voic Stan Lee, article. Every little jab or ke of Rex l gray hair, He has kind of a high so mu f the world thinks he ey nder“I see,” says Kirby. ngy lookali thinning but tastefu deep ’s ch . together and he misu Avenue, ra ivity and a es, start m over plot We were a the t the Thing sees them be in capt , morous ey “Bu rg ro li ay slight, real or perceived, Surfer. And rd hu a n sd er u d k wa ur e Silv in in an s, the g g up h ague t with y, Th jaw I told figh Le da big y es a ts Iv Tu star d y he re So t is er him lo ev ou stands. own st of trouble. Doctor brightest-co mes from working e, cranking ories.” to tastic Four is in lots up to this point could’ve co rban terrac meanwhile, the Fan they need the Thing’s and suntan that Sunday on his subu n agai them ht d ly. Doom has caug g punches now. played a role in this Saturday an e Marvel mags week around and throwin Lee arrives plet help.” Lee is lurching at his plot three com artists. He s in sort of says Kirby. ht,” “Rig But then Alicia reaction. Some have even inserts the ESP sessio s the Silver Surfer. dialogue af in. Here he ns with th “The Thing finally beat ter the pict ake. This is what e is in actio ure layout made a terrible mist n at his we meeting wi he’s ize speculated that Martin real him es com mak ek hing else, that he th Jack “K ing” Kirby, ly Friday morning su es feared more than anyt a man wh m the Thing has always o created Goodman may have influenced the reporter ly clobber somebody.” many of th a veteran comic book mit real mine: The and trol con e visions of artist, would lose Ki your child baggy Robe ng is a middle-aged hood and Kirby nods. off by himself. man with to shade the article so Lee, his relative and rt Hall-ish baggy eyes enhearted. He wanders suit. He is and if you “The Thing is brok to the and a sucking a stood next ia or go back home Alic huge green to him on face him for th to company employee, comes out looking like med cigar the subway He’s too asha e assistant he’s failing for the foreman in you would doesn’t realize how He r. Fou ic sags back tast pe a Fan Lee girdle fact g him.” the sole creator of the Marvel Universe, ory. much the FF needs second time... How t. spen and limp , on his desk crumpled in. thereby helping Goodman’s chances of sellof the chair he was y Kirby has leaped out mouth and his bagg his of out is r ciga ing his company—but as in questioning the usiasm. “Great, great.” The e is young with enth eyes are aglow. His

69

high voic

November 1966

were copying and keeping copies of Jack Kirby’s stuff, because we figured, if whatever he does is going to be the standard, then we might as well make a copy of it... he was absolutely revered, and we considered him our team captain and our leader. He was our guy. He was the best guy on the team.”

Kirby draws art for the January 1967 Captain Nice TV show, while IN magazine’s November 1966 issue features a one-page custom comic strip, showcasing Marvel characters drawn by Gil Kane, and promoting the Merry Marvel Marching Society.

December 1966

Circa 2011: Interview with John Romita, by Aaron Sultan

This copying of Kirby’s pencil pages continues through his entire 1960s tenure at Marvel, as Marie Severin makes thermo-fax copies of “The Monster” from Chamber of Darkness #4 in August 1969 when Jack’s pencils arrive in the mail—she kept and shared them with me for Jack Kirby Collector #13 in 1996. The year closes with Stan making a Christmas Eve personal appearance to draw the twenty winning entries in a contest his local dry cleaner is running.

This month, Marie Severin draws, and Stan Lee dialogues, Tales to Astonish #93. The issue features the Silver Surfer as a guest-star in the Hulk story. It’s credited as “Presented by Smilin’ Stan Lee and Mirthful Marie Severin”, and is the only use up to this point of the Surfer outside of Kirby’s Fantastic Four. Marie’s art is very Kirbyesque here, helped by Frank Giacoia’s inking. Knowing the Surfer’s popularity, and that things are strained between Kirby and himself, is this Stan trying out Marie Kirby’s Captain Nice poster art. to do an eventual solo-Surfer book, without Kirby’s involvement? If so, it’s doubtful she would’ve played along with such a plan, had she known of it:

Week of Dec. 23–29: Long Island Entertainer, print ad

In a much more savvy marketing move, Lee soon writes his first “Stan’s Soapbox” editorial, which would appear three months later in Amazing Spider-Man #49. This is a big step in further elevating his position as the figurehead of Marvel Comics, as Stan will allude to just three months later: “I like to think of this whole thing as an advertising campaign...”

“[Marie] would never kid with Jack Kirby. She admired him too much. And if it came to a choice between who she would root for, she would root for Jack Kirby against Marvel. She was that kind of person. “Let me tell you, whenever Jack Kirby’s stuff came in, we would all make copies. There weren’t even any Xeroxes then... we were doing thermo-fax, which was a terrible copying system. We had to feed the pages into the machine, and it had to go through the roller and come out, the whole page of art... there was a lot of heat. “One time Larry Lieber put a Jack Kirby page in there and it stuck, and the page was burned in half. And Larry had to lightbox whatever was left and recreate the page... he was dying because he thought he had committed a capital crime. “Everybody in the office would make copies of Jack Kirby’s pages... I was trying to save every pencil panel that I could, and a lot of other people, including Marie, John Romita:

March 3, 1967: “Will Success Spoil Spider-Man,” on New York’s WBAI-FM radio, transcribed in The Stan Lee Universe, 2011.

ky, at Stan’s l production manager Sol Brods ” sent to Jack for reference by Marve -to-issue, right down to the “F4NY A stat from Fantastic Four #65 issue rod hot y’s Johnn in spot differences from Fantastic Four #68 [right], request. Stan knew readers would page d) unuse , (sadly this for come in handy license plate number. It would an inking tryout page. which was saved to be used as

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the premise that the super-hero has his superpower, and then keep everything else as realistic as possible? If I were Spider-Man, for example, wouldn’t I still have romantic problems, financial problems, sinus attacks, and fits of insecurity? Wouldn’t I be a little embarrassed about appearing in public in a costume? We decided to let our super-heroes live in the real world. “What we were doing was creating fairy tales for adults. I think we were responsible for the Pop Art bit. College students started reading our books back in 1961, and eventually the word got around that comic books were popular again. But the average newspaper feature writer didn’t read the new comic books, and so what books did he think of? Batman and Superman. But only kids read Batman and Superman. Marvels are for intelligent people.”

January 1967

Future movie critic Roger Ebert pens an article titled “New Comic Book Craze: A Super Hero With Problems?” for the Chicago Sun-Times Special magazine, and it is syndicated in papers across the United States, giving Lee an ever-widening scope of influence: “For years, we had been producing comics for kids, because they were supposed to be the market. One day, out of sheer boredom, we said—let’s do something we would like. So we tried to get rid of the old clichés. Comics were too predictable. Why not accept

January 7, 1967: Express and News (San Antonio, TX)

In the article, Ebert mentions that Stan “and his artist” created the FF, meaning either Ebert knows his Marvel history well, or Lee makes a point of mentioning Kirby while being interviewed, and Roger (or an editor) neglects to name-drop Kirby. At this same time, Lee writes his “Stan’s Soapbox” column for July 1967 cover-date releases, and includes a letter by future Kirby assistant Mark Evanier, who gives ranks to members of the MMMS.

TURNiNG POiNT! February 1967

This is the point where Jack Kirby draws Fantastic Four #67— the final issue of the “Him” storyline, where Stan changes the direction Jack is heading with the plot. Kirby, inspired by episodes of the Outer Limits television series and the 1955 film Forbidden Planet, is giving his take on Ayn Rand’s school of Objectivist thought—something Steve Ditko subscribes to. But Lee turns it into something different. Mike Gartland:

astic Four Splash page from Fant

“The story that Jack wanted: ‘Create a superior human and he just might find you inferior enough to get rid of,’ became through Lee another ‘bad guys try to take over world and get their comeup-

” saga.

#66, the start of the “Him

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Detail from the final page of Fantastic Four #67. The look of the “Him” character is inspired by a race of beings called “Metrons” (a name Kirby will use later at DC Comics) from the Star Trek episode “Arena” [see photo at top].

© Paramount.

Aftermath

1967

reason for the Silver Surfer. Nobody else had a reason for him; I knew the Silver Surfer. Nobody else did.”

“I’ll tell you how I worked with Stan Lee when we worked on The Silver Surfer together... I would go to the city and we would sit there, Stan and I, and discuss a plot for The Silver Surfer, and we’d throw ideas back and forth until finally, at the end of an hour or a half hour, whatever it was, I’d walk out of his office and not think of anything. And when I’d get home, I could remember every scene that we had discussed that particular day. I had that ability.” John Buscema:

Jan 31, 1971 (Nov. 1971 publication date): Comic & Crypt #5, Jack Kirby and Carmine Infantino interview conducted by Mark Sigal, David Rubin, Paul Hock, and Marc Bigley

Another side-effect of the Kirbyless Silver Surfer #1 is the Lee/ Gene Colan back-up story featuring the origin of his co-creation The Watcher, which is a retelling of the Lee-plotted, Larry Lieber scripted and drawn version in Tales of Suspense #53 in 1964. It’s likely Jack was unaware an origin for the Watcher ever existed without his involvement, and if he saw a copy of Silver Surfer #1 when it was published, he stopped reading before getting to this back-up feature. This will have consequences down the line. With certain animosity in the air between them, both men provide short and sweet written answers for the fanzine Excelsior #1. While I can’t ascertain the exact date Stan and Jack wrote these responses, since they are published sometime in 1968, I assume they are composed after the revelation of Silver Surfer #1 being produced without Kirby’s involvement.

2001: John Buscema Panel at Comic-Con: International, Summer 2001, moderated by Mark Evanier

[1970] “...when I discussed the character with John Buscema before he started drawing the book, John said: ‘Well, how do you want me to think of him? You know, what kind of guy?’ And I said: ‘The closer you come to Jesus Christ the better’.” Stan Lee from his 1970 Changes magazine interview

Silver Surfer #1 is a sore spot for Kirby, as he has no advance notice it is being produced, and Jack certainly has his own plans for the character that now can’t reach fruition. It must’ve been quite a betrayal to find he isn’t chosen to work on his signature solo creation. In the Surfer book, the origin makes a mockery of Jack’s original motivation—a character who doesn’t value human life until Alicia shows him how to. Instead, Norrin Radd tragically loses his true love Shalla Bal on the planet Zenn-La—in hindsight, his reactions in FF #48–50 make no sense. This has to be galling to Kirby, and even more so since he has to jettison his own Surfer plans. Does Stan select John Buscema as the artist, to avoid more conflicts with an already unhappy Kirby? Or does Lee see that Jack’s plots since FF #74 back in September, are leading toward a different Surfer origin, and want to get his own version in print first? The timing here is difficult to know for sure. Does Kirby know before drawing FF #77 that Stan Lee is doing a solo Silver Surfer book without him? Since he is coming into the Marvel office much less by this point, he may’ve completely finished drawing the issue, and Lee required him to change it after the fact. If Kirby instead reveals his intention of giving the Surfer an origin during their plot conference for #77, Lee has to tell him about the Surfer solo title then. Either way, if Jack meant to stretch his Surfer origin to resolve in FF #78, he would have to rework some of the pages from #77 that originally led into #78 before it is scuttled. [1971] “Silver Surfer was taken out of my hands. I originated it because I had a

Who conceived the F.F.? You or Jack? “Both—’twas mainly my idea, but Jack created characters visually.” Who created The Inhumans, you or Stan? “I did.”

Do you plot the Fantastic Four stories by drawing the basic story and then having Stan write the dialogue? “This is Stanley’s editorial policy. As a Marvel artist, I carry it out.”

Late 1967-early 1968: Excelsior #1 interviews with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, by Sal Caputo and “The Kizer”

The note attached to this 1967 photostat from Thor #147 says: “Stat after lettering and send stats to Jack K. Also, tell Stan when stats go to J.K.” It’s evident this year was pivotal in terms of corrections on (Kirby would call it “interference with”) Jack’s work. Gone were the days of just Lee & Kirby knocking out stories, warts and all. Marvel’s success led to serious editorial oversight.

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Distance and type out a detailed script . “I have always been a good hack writer. I’ve always been able to write whatever has been necessary. For example, in the Army I used to write training films and I had never written films before. But they turned out great. I’ve Faux-autographed photo of Lee, sold in 1968 ads. written advertising, novels, just about everything. My style has changed only recently when we started our new line. The style I am writing in now is the one I am suited for, though.”

January 1968

Either Lee or Goodman (or both) sees value in marketing Stan as a “brand,” and prepares an ad which will run in Silver Surfer #1, Thor #153 and other Summer issues, selling an autographed portrait of “Stan the Man.” It’s preprinted with Lee’s signature and new catchphrase “Excelsior,” and though the ad promises photos of other Marvel stars, they never materialize, although Marvel’s upcoming fan club will offer a Bullpen photo kit with other creators included. This month sees Kirby working on Thor #154, the first chapter of his four-part Mangog epic, which will potentially lead to Ragnarok, the death of all the old Norse gods. It’s been rumored that Kirby wants to end Thor at this point, and transition to his own set of “new” gods, the genesis of which is a series of character concepts he’s been working on since 1966. I don’t know how seriously Kirby pushed for this, if at all, but Lee and/or Goodman never would’ve approved of ending a successful book like Thor, and Kirby ends up saving his ideas for later use, as we’ll see. Lee is interviewed on WFMU Radio in New Jersey about his and Kirby’s work at Marvel: “...Jack is the greatest artist in the world. He also is a great story man. He does all the breakdowns and basic plots and I dialogue. We didn’t start that way but Jack and I think so much alike. It isn’t the same with every artist. Some artists I have to sit with three or four times and sit down

January 1968: WFMU Radio (Jersey City, NJ) interview with Stan Lee, by Joel Scott

“[Stan’s] change in his style really came, I think, with Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. Before that, he didn’t have that kind of style... later on, he got his style, and I didn’t particularly want to go with that style myself. I continued to write whatever way I did write. Later, when I did the Westerns, they were not written in Stan’s style.” Larry Lieber:

1999: Larry Lieber interviewed by Roy Thomas, from Alter Ego #2

February 1968

The Baltimore Sun features an article interviewing Lee: “We don’t cater to any special age group. But we do cater to a special intellectual level. Our readers, no matter what their ages, have proved to be bright, imaginative, informal, and sophisticated.” Stan must’ve made a point to mention Jack’s name here, for the reporter to have included: “Marvel entered the super-hero field in 1963, [sic] when Lee and artist Jack Kirby introduced ‘The Fantastic Four’.” Feb. 6, 1968: The Baltimore Sun (Baltimore, MD) article “Collegians Go For Comics,” by Jackie Harper

To keep Marvel’s comics appealing to the college crowd, Lee has Jack’s “tough juveniles” described in Thor #154’s margin notes, redrawn as hippies.

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literally over a weekend. At this point, Kirby decides to bring back the “Him” character from the Fantastic Four #67 story Lee altered a year prior. Jack inserts his “cocoon” at the end of Thor #163 as a teaser, leading to his full reappearance in #165.

switching to a new printer, with earlier deadlines required, thus affecting Marvel’s schedule. Just as likely, Kirby’s impending move to California (and his increasing animosity toward Lee) keeps Jack from working on the book—and Stan doesn’t want to risk another rift with Kirby over characters he’s created being assigned to another artist. November brings another Stan Lee media appearance, this time on Pittsburgh radio station WJAS. November 14, 1968: Pittsburgh Press (Pittsburgh, PA) radio listing: 4:35pm, WJAS, Now. An interview with Stan Lee about today’s comic books.

It also brings an interview for a feature article in Eye Magazine, a short-lived youth culture magazine published by the Hearst Corporation. In it, Lee hopes his wife Joan one day “will go to a cocktail party and won’t be embarrassed when she’s asked what her husband does for a living. “I have no idea what’s going to happen. I really don’t know if Sue’s baby is going to have supernatural powers when he gets older. Until the day of the final deadline for [Fantastic Four Annual #6], we didn’t know if she was going to have a boy, a girl, or a monster. I think we flipped a coin.” Lee makes a point to mention that the artist sometimes contributes elements to stories that he hasn’t considered. This article calls the FF “Lee’s first creation...”, but that may just be the author’s interpretation based on the interview he conducted. When Stan is actually quoted elsewhere in the article, he says: “When I created Hulk with artist Jack Kirby, we had the feeling that people love a guy who isn’t perfect. As a kid I always loved the Frankenstein monster. All kids know that Frankenstein’s monster really isn’t a bad guy, that he’s friendly to blind violinists, and that he just fell into bad company.”

November 1968

Around this time, Kirby’s wife Roz starts holding back especially compelling full-page drawings from Jack’s stories, telling him, “These are too good for Marvel.” “Him” from Tho r #166. Lee answers two consecutive questionnaires he is sent by a fan. When asked why Ditko left Marvel, Lee states: “He just upped and quit!! Never told us why!! (We wish he had remained.)” In his second round of answers, he’s asked about a rumor that Ditko is returning to Marvel, but Lee shoots it down: “No—we wish it were true!!” When queried about a “Captain Marvel” lawsuit, Lee first says of it, “We’re not worried!”, and on his second set of responses says, “...We won it!.”

Nov. 1968 interview (Feb. 1969 cover date): Eye Magazine article, “The New Super-Hero (Is A Pretty Kinky Guy)”

Nov. 1968 cover-date: Marvelites Fan-Zine #1 interviews with Stan Lee by Bob Krotts, president and editor of the Marvelites Fan Club. Inside of publication lists it as Summer/Fall 1968.

December 1968

As you’ll recall, Myron Fass published his infamous “split” Captain Marvel in February 1966, using the name that had languished since DC Comics’ 1953 settlement with Fawcett over their character’s similarity to Superman. While nailing down assets to effect the sale of Marvel, Goodman offered Fass $6000 for the rights to the character in July 1966, but Fass turned him down. So in October 1967, Goodman released his own “Captain Mar-Vell” character in Marvel Super-Heroes #12. The character received a solo series in September 1968, triggering this lawsuit. The legal action is first reported in a November 13, 1967 Wall Street Journal article, so these interview answers from Stan would’ve come right around that article’s publication date. As Lee writes his “Stan’s Soapbox” column for February 1969 releases, he apologizes that the Inhumans title previously announced is not to be. He says the reason is due to Marvel

Lee ends the year writing an auspicious notice for the Bullpen Bulletins page in June 1969 cover-dated issues: “Here’s an announcement we make with mixed emotions. JACK (King) KIRBY and family are leaving New York and moving to California. In fact, by the time you read this, the King will already be settled on the shores of the blue Pacific! But, don’t panic, pilgrim—he’ll still be doing his bit for the Bullpen, same as ever. It’s just that he’ll be spending most of his extra cabbage on air-mail stamps rather than those king-sized cigars he loves to sport. Actually, it’s a terrific deal for the Great One, who certainly deserves his place in the sun; but poor ol’ Stan has conniptions every time he thinks of the long-distance phone bills he’s gonna run up each month when he calls his pantin’ partner to discuss their latest plots! Hooo boy!”

DC Comics sued over Fawcett Comics’ 1940 Captain Marvel’s similarity to Superman, and won an out-of-court settlement in 1953, when Fawcett decided to get out of comics entirely. This spawned Marvelman, a 1954 UK knock-off, begun when new Fawcett stories to reprint there ran out. Then, Myron Fass co-opted the name in 1966, and even went so far as to name one of his characters “Dr. Doom,” probably just to annoy Martin Goodman.

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Solitude “In Kirby’s original version of Galactus’ origin, it’s pretty clear that the sequence of events is that Galactus emerges as an irradiated, Due to dying entity, and the Watcher, then Romita dr Kirby’s move w es ew the co a scientist, takes action to save his ver for Th t, John or #169. life, helping to complete his transformation into TOM Brevoort:

January 1969

The Kirby family relocates from New York to California with the balance of Martin Goodman’s loan, further distancing Jack from the Marvel offices. In the midst of his hectic move and getting settled in California the first few months of 1969, Jack draws Thor #168–170, reaching a climax to his last great cosmic epic begun in Thor #160 back in July 1968. Kirby incorporates characters that he’s most personally attached to—even revisiting the character “Him” from Fantastic Four #67, which had widened the rift between Lee and he—all building toward something big. But after giving the basic details of Galactus’ origin early on in Thor #162, why does he return to it just seven issues later, unless there is an even bigger story to tell? In typical Kirby fashion, there is: Jack’s finally ready to detail the backstory of Galactus and the Watcher that was hinted at back in Fantastic Four #49, during the “Galactus Trilogy”—and give his own origin of the Watcher. But in another clear sign that Jack is setting the course for Thor with no input from Stan, Kirby heartbreakingly has most of issue #169 rejected by Lee, and his ultimate resolution of the story arc scrapped. Numerous penciled pages are jettisoned uninked, and what’s redrawn (and oddly inked by George Klein, taking over from Vince Colletta) barely holds together as a story. In fact, many of the Klein-inked Galactus figures in the published version appear to have been drawn as the Watcher, then altered—even with Klein’s bold inkwork, those heavily blackened figures look way out of place. In one telltale panel, you can still see the Watcher’s toga on a Galactus figure—in a story where Thor has no interaction with the Watcher at all. I’ve been mulling over what happened to Thor #169 for years, with the help of collector Glen Gold and others. But a recent exchange with Marvel’s Tom Brevoort finally made sense of it:

Galactus is born in Thor #162, but not exactly the way Kirby had envisioned, due to Lee’s input. This page might’ve originally been drawn for the Silver Surfer’s unrealized origin in Fantastic Four #77, and Kirby finally found a use for it here.

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Fantastic Four #61 (page 12, showing Crystal leaving the Inhumans) and #62 (page 6, showing Crystal leaving to get help for Reed, and page 20, showing how the story should continue) Possible Reason: In addition to story continuity, as reminders to Jack for Crystal’s hair design— though Jack sure forgot it soon after these issues, so Stan’s references didn’t help. Maybe the #62, page 20 was reference for when and if Blastaar returned—Stan wanted to be prepared for the possibility. Fantastic Four #64 (cover only) Possible Reason: So Jack can see the revised cover that replaced the rejected one. Why? No idea! Something to do with the fact that the Torch’s blast was changed to a fireball? Was that a Comics Code requirement that Stan wanted Jack to see? Fantastic Four #65 (page 8 and page 15) Possible Reason: For future hot rod reference on page 8 (marked by Sol Brodsky), and showing “Good Alicia” on page 15 (also marked by Sol, and probably as a big hint that Stan would like to see them used again—a hint Jack totally ignores!).

later—maybe this is Stan’s hint to use him again. If any Shield stat was needed by Jack, it would have been Strange Tales #135, with the first Helicarrier.

Possible Reason: To follow through for his work on the next issue (assuming Jack was taking two months between drawing each issue; maybe he drew two half-stories at once?).

Captain America #104 Possible Reason: Unsure.

Tales of Suspense #92 Possible Reason: Shows reference for Romita’s redrawn Agent 13 faces.

Tales to Astonish #67, 71, 74, 77 Possible Reason: Surely these are all for story continuity, since Kirby was putting together the plots. #67 was Ditko’s last issue, and Jack would need these to start layouts for the next issue. #77 had Kirby layouts for Romita, and he would need these to do layouts for Everett next issue. Tales of Suspense #76, 78 Possible Reason: To show AIM correctly in future uses. Tales of Suspense #91 by Gil Kane (GIl Kane’s margin notes are shown)

Fantastic Four #66 Possible Reason: For the “Him” storyline that ends in #67? It doesn’t really time out. They could send #65 in time for Jack to draw #67, but #66 would likely be too late to do any good, unless Stan rejected #67 and Jack had to redraw it at the last minute. And it doesn’t seem like they’d send the whole issue #66 stats, just for Him’s later appearance in Thor. Fantastic Four #74, 76, and #77 (full issues) Possible Reason: #74-77 is a multi-issue story that was going to culminate with Jack’s origin for the Silver Surfer, which got scrapped because of Silver Surfer #1. So Kirby needed these to know how to continue the FF based on these past issues’ changes. Fantastic Four #82, 85, 86, 87 Possible Reason: Unsure; for story continuity? Fantastic Four #89, 90, 91, 93 Possible Reason: To pick up the Skrull plot threads that lead into next issue. Fantastic Four #94 Possible Reason: For Agatha Harkness’s recurring role as Franklin’s nanny—even though Jack himself never drew Agatha again. However, Stan wouldn’t know that at the time. Fantastic Four #95, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101 (full issues) Possible Reason: The last page on each of these inked stats has a blank “next issue” box, so Stan has no idea what’d be coming next. He probably wanted to keep Jack aware of past issues since he was in California, 3000 miles away. Fantastic Four Annual #6 Possible Reason: As reference for Annihilus— but Jack just called him “villain” throughout. So Annihilus is Stan’s name—a real goody! Strange Tales #138, 142, 144, and #147 Possible Reason: Stan’s note says to use the same barber, etc. as in Shield #2 (“important”). We know Stan used to get annoyed at Jack tossing in great creations like the Wild Bill robot (Strange Tales #142), then ignoring it a page

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X-Men #3 Possible Reason: The Blob, this issue’s villain, returned in #7, so this was reference for him. X-Men #7 (pages 5 and 7) Possible Reason: This was the first appearance of Cerebro, so as reference for future uses. X-Men #15 (full issue stats of Jack’s layouts and margin notes) Possible Reason: Unsure, since #15 would be Jack’s last issue—but perhaps Stan didn’t know that at the time these were sent. H

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Departure perfectly sums up Kirby’s frustration with his time at Marvel Comics. Lee puts his best spin on recent events as he preps the Bullpen Bulletins page for July 1970 coverdate releases: “We just had a visit from JACK (KING) KIRBY, who winged his way eastward from sunny California to rap it up with Stan about the new INHUMANS series It’s clear what’s on Kirby’s mind; final panels to Amazing the Jolly One will be proAdventures #1 [above] and [below] Fantastic Four #102. ducing in the forthcoming Amazing Adventures. Sly ol’ Stan not only conned Jack into doing two yarns at once, but even cajoled the King into doing the script as well as the penciling for this great new series.” I’d assume, instead of being talked into it, Kirby insisted on dialoguing “The Inhumans,” so any plans he had for them wouldn’t be usurped, like his ideas for the Silver Surfer, Him, the Watcher, and Galactus had been. In his “Stan’s Soapbox” column, Lee states this about most of his non-Kirby collaborations: “It takes about half a day to create the plot for an average 20-pager. That includes the hour or two spent in discussing the various story angles by the writer and penciler. Then, the penciler begins to draw the strip, and most pencilers average about two pages a day of peerless drawing. Of course there are speed demons like Kirby, Colan, and Buscema who can whip out three pages daily... Finally, the writer gets the penciled pages and usually spends about two full working days putting the dialogue and captions into a 20-pager. (Averaging 10 pages daily.)” But there’s been no two-hour plot conferences with Kirby in years, as the recent stories in Fantastic Four show. As Lee shapes up the FF #100 letter column, he inserts an almost hopelesssounding “Personal Note From Stan And Jack” to kick it off: “Stan and Jack hereby pledge to continue unabated their efforts to see that the FF continues to earn its title as ‘the World’s Greatest Comics Magazine!’” The number of recent pan letters must’ve provoked this blurb, to stem the tide of negative responses about the lackluster FF title of late. Does Stan not have enough positive ones to fill the

January 1970

Jack Kirby draws Silver Surfer #18 instead of Thor #178. The switch served multiple purposes: To give a shot in the arm to the failing Surfer’s comic, as a lead-in to Kirby’s upcoming Inhumans series (those characters are guest-stars), and to give John Buscema a try-out on Thor. A fourth rationale may’ve been considered: To assign Jack the Surfer book as a too-little, too-late peace offering from Stan, who’s discouraged that his own Christ-like take on the character has flopped. Whatever the case, the relationship is unrepairable at this point, and the final page of Silver Surfer #18 [below]

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never done anything else. “Technically [working for DC] doesn’t differ, because I work from my house, I’ve got a studio in the house, and I send the stuff in. That’s the way it was at Marvel. I would live in some suburb, and maybe once in a while, twice a month, I’d go into the city, see all the people, and get the heck scared out of me, and run home.”

“I can’t predict Marvel’s future. I won’t.”

Asked whether Stan Lee added revolutionary ideas to comics, Kirby’s reply is, “I’d say that Stan

When asked what part he played in creating the Marvel characters, Kirby responds: “Quite a substantial part. That’s all I’m gonna say... The Silver Surfer came out of a feeling; that’s the only thing I can say. When I drew Galactus, I just don’t know why, but I suddenly figured out that Galactus was God, and I found that I’d made a villain out of God, and I couldn’t make a villain out of him. And I couldn’t treat him as a villain, so I had to back away from him. I backed away from Galactus, and I felt he was so awesome, and in some way he was God, and who would accompany God, but some kind of fallen angel? And that’s who the Silver Surfer was. And at the end of the story, Galactus condemned him to Earth, and he couldn’t go into space anymore. So the Silver Surfer played his role in that manner. And, y’know, I can’t say why; it just happened. And that was the Silver Surfer. I suppose you might call it—I don’t know, some kind of response to an inner feeling.”

Lee quoted me quite a good deal.”

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

Just after this appearance, on August 25, Superman’s Pal, Jimmy Olsen #133 is published, with Kirby’s first ’70s work for DC.

Late 1970

This fall, Marvel prepares Fantastic Four #110, and works in what appears to be an unused Kirby collage page intended for Fantastic Four #75 or #76. As Kirby gets entrenched at DC Comics and his new creations hit the newsstands, he discusses his reasons for switching companies: “I can only say that DC gave me my

own editing affairs, and if I have an idea I can take credit for it. I don’t have the feeling of repression that I had at Marvel. I don’t say I wasn’t comfortable at Marvel, but it had its frustrating moments and there was nothing I could do about it. When I got the opportunity to transfer to DC, I took it. At DC I’m given the privilege of being associated with my own ideas. If I did come up with an idea at Marvel, they’d take it away from me and I lost all association with it. I was never given credit for the writing which I did. Most of the writing at Marvel is done by the artist from the script . “[Fantastic Four] was my idea. It was my idea to do it the way it was; my idea to develop it the way it was. I’m not saying that Stan had nothing to do with it. Of course he did. We talked things out. As things went on, I began to work at home and I no longer came up to the office. I developed all the stuff at home and just sent it in. I had to come up with new ideas to help the strip sell. I was faced with the frustration of having to come up with new ideas and then having them taken from me. So, I was kind of caught in a box and I had to get out of that box, and when DC came along and gave me the opportunity to do it, I took it. I believe working for DC can lead to other experimentation and a better kind of comic book, and the kind of comic book that could lead to all sorts of different things.” Late 1970 (published June 1971): Rocket’s Blast Comicollector #81 interview, by Bruce Hamilton

“I’m trying to get all [my themes] across in an entertaining sort of way... I can’t do it all in three or four issues. At Marvel it took five years, and my problem was that I couldn’t do a simple story—I had to create an instant world in each magazine.” Late 1970 Kirby interview by Mike Towry, from Train of Thought #5 Kirby’s depiction of the Microverse from Fantastic Four #75 is a dead ringer for this likely Kirby collage in FF #110.

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Proving Ground Kirby sketches by his backyard pool in 197 1. Photo by Bill Bridges .

From the time Kirby leaves Marvel for DC, through the end of 1972, DC publishes 48 issues with Kirby’s work, compared to 106 issues at Marvel with Kirby reprints—more than a 2-to-1 ratio in Marvel’s favor. It actually gets worse later in Kirby’s stay at DC. In 1973, Marvel will unleash a third wave of reprint titles including such series as Marvel Double Feature, Marvel Spectacular, SHIELD, Tomb of Darkness, Human Torch, and Journey into Mystery, in addition to the continuing titles such as Marvel’s Greatest Comics, Marvel Super Heroes, Special Marvel Edition, and Mighty Marvel Western, all frequently featuring Kirby covers and stories. There is never a time in Kirby’s five-year absence that Marvel isn’t publishing more Kirby work than DC.

television, radio, movies, or what have you.” January 20, 1971: National Cartoonists Society Roundtable discussion at the Lamb’s Club in NYC, with Stan Lee, Gil Kane, Will Eisner, John Goldwater, Sid Jacobson, Denny O’Neil, Murphy Anderson, and Howie Schneider.

“I do remember one thing [Stan] was frustrated about that had nothing to do with comics, and that’s when they brought out the magazine called Celebrity. It was truly spectacular—done on a shoestring budget—everyone loved it, but Martin was unwilling to put enough money into it to give it the right distribution. Stan felt it could have been another People. Stan had always thought Hollywood and films, but Martin Goodman would never put any money into it. It became a dead end for Stan.” Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

On January 31, Kirby gives an interview in Carmine Infantino’s DC Comics office in New York, where he’s asked how long he’s had the idea for New Gods: “Well, I guess for several years it’s probably

been in the back of my mind, but I’ve never sat down and worked it out, though I’ve always known it’s been there.” On why he didn’t use these new ideas at Marvel, he says: “It’s not that I was cramped, but there were limitations which stopped me from going on. Over here I have the chance to go beyond them; I feel that whatever story there is to this ‘gods’ business, the ‘new’ gods or the ‘old’ gods, I feel that there is a story to them. I feel that there was an actual replacement of the ‘old’ gods by new ones which are relevant to what we see and hear. “I was involved in what I was doing there and I feel that this would never have fit into what they were doing. This is a whole new interpreKirby used a 1966 idea he formulated while still at Marvel, tation and it as the basis for his DC Comics New Gods series, and utilized cannot be told his concept art on the with shields first issue’s cover.

d at a May 1971 banquet. Photo by Sal Amendola.

Lee accepts a “Shazam” awar

January 1971

On January 20, Lee speaks at a National Cartoonists Society gathering in New York City: “I would say that the comic book market is the worst market that there is on the face of the Earth for creative talent, and the reasons are numberless and legion. I have had many talented people ask me how to get into the comic book business. If they were talented enough, the first answer I would give them is, why would you want to get into the comic book business? Because even if you succeed, even if you reach what might be considered the pinnacle of success in comics, you will be less successful, less secure, and less effective than if you are just an average practitioner of your art in 117

On the creation of the Fantastic Four, Origins of Marvel Comics gives what could be Stan’s most accurate, concise account ever of the sequence of events: “After kicking it around with Martin and Jack for a while, I decided to call our quaint quartet The Fantastic Four. I wrote a detailed first synopsis for Jack to follow, and the rest is history.” More perplexing is Lee’s account of the creation of Thor: “During a recent radio interview the talk-show host and I had been discussing our Marvel stories and he had referred to them as a 20th-century mythology. It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future generations just as those we had read as children had been handed down to us. One of the points he had made was that Marvel’s heroes il had some of the charisma, some of the ts prior to this Apr Based on accoun is at we’re assuming wh to er flavor of ancient fairy tales, of ancient lett 4 197 r, by this point Lee a potential licenso Greek and Norse mythology. And that that Kirby’s return seems to be hinting nt. to Marvel in immine was what grabbed me. That was the answer.” It makes for great promo copy, but historically, this is simply impossible. The idea that Stan is doing radio interviews about Marvel, prior to Journey into Mystery #83, seems rather far-fetched. Marvel wasn’t even close to being a household name by that point, so this doesn’t ring true, despite Stan repeating it almost verbatim in interviews for years to come, such as this instance 25 years later: [1999] “Whence came the notion of making a super-hero out of the Norse god of thunder? I thought you’d never ask! It happened when I was a guest on a New York radio talk show. The interviewer kept referring to our colorful, costumed characters as our generation’s new mythology. Then, when he asked what new creation we were preparing, it all came together! Enter the world of myth! Come up with a god!”

Sometime in late 1974-early 1975, Kirby sits down for an interview in Barry Alfonso’s fanzine Mysticogryfil. Jack refers to his work at DC in the present tense—“I’m subject to their policy as anybody else”—so this interview would’ve been conducted before he moves back to Marvel. In it, you get a sense of his restlessness and discontent at DC Comics. Do you remember the first time you worked with Stan Lee? “No, I don’t remember.”

Jack undoubtedly does remember, but apparently doesn’t want to talk about it. Why did you never put a finish to the New Gods/Forever People thing? Did you purposely leave it open-ended?

“No... it just happened that way. It had to end at that point, there was nothing I could do about it. For the New Gods it was unfortunate, but I had no time to make a finale for it. When I do write the finale for the New Gods, it’ll be something spectacular.”

It would be the battle between Orion and Darkseid?

“Yes, it’ll be the battle; and the battle itself will be a big surprise, I assure you.”

Was the series ended for financial reasons as they’ve said?

“No. No financial reasons involved. I can’t make a statement unless I make it in concert with those who make policy.”

Why is there no provision for giving the artist some payment for re-use? It’s the only business I can think of where it’s not done.

“I say that it’s medieval in that respect, because it’s highly specialized, and very limited. You have no choice... Well, it’s gotten to the stage where there’s a minimal scale wage, which isn’t bad. And, slowly but surely, they are now beginning to give you your originals back.”

1999: Found online, source uncertain

Late 1974-early 1975 (published May 1975): Jack Kirby and Don Rico interview in Mysticogryfil: Journal of Cosmic Wonder #2, with Barry Alfonso

The biggest issue is, at the time Marvel’s Thor is created, the company has no colorful characters for a radio interviewer to discuss. Journey into Mystery #83 would’ve been worked on around February 1962, and the only published “colorful characters” that could’ve been discussed on radio at that point are the Fantastic Four (who only get their costumes in issue #3, on-sale in December 1961, just two months prior to work commencing on Thor), Dr. Droom (from Amazing Adventures; hardly a colorful character), and Henry Pym (not yet Ant-Man in costume, just the “Man in the Ant Hill” in Tales to Astonish #27). Marvel had not generated anything close to a “modern mythology” yet—nor any reason for a talk show host to even interview Stan. This story is the kind of unfortunate hogwash that has earned Lee a reputation in some circles as being a dishonest egotist who claims credit where it isn’t due.

Kirby later refers back to this period in an interview: [1986] “Let’s just say there’s a dark side to comics. It involves personalities, differences, a lot of things. It has nothing to do with creating characters and stories. And those things can develop so you’ve got to meet those things head on, and I did. I made decisions about those things about as easily as I made decisions about a story.” When asked if other people taking credit for his work was a factor in his career plans, Kirby replies, “It’s

part of that. When other people interfere with your work, you apply at another company.” May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

[1985] “I don’t contrive stories, I don’t give you B.S., and I’m not giving you fairy tales.”

[left] Dr. Droom, master of the occult, made three brief appearances in 1961’s Amazing Adventures #1–3, then vanished without a trace—hardly a “colorful character” to discuss on radio.

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

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Comings & Goings to come back eventually. I sort of half-expect that he’ll come back when his contract ends—I think he’d be making a mistake not to come back. I’d say he did his best work at Marvel, his style is pure Marvel. Also I must admit that he has had so many books at National that have failed, whereas if they’d been for Marvel, I think they would still be being published—especially New Gods. “The thing about Jack is that though he’s a good story man, and a good artist, I feel he needs some control, some editing. He tends to get so wrapped up in what he wants to do, that he forgets

February 1975

Lee discusses the departure of Kirby, and whether he could’ve done his New Gods books at Marvel: “He could have. I don’t really know why he left. I think it was a personal thing. Jack never told me. I think it could be as simple as the fact that he got sick of everything he did saying ‘by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’. Maybe he just wanted to do his own thing and have the books saying ‘by Jack Kirby.’ But, as far as I was concerned, if he’d have told me he wanted to do his own book, I’d have said fine, and let him write it and draw it, but he never said it to me. I’ve heard that he was tired of doing things that he never owned, to copyright his characters, shares of the profits, and so on. I wish I’d had the same thing, I don’t blame him. But what surprises me is that he doesn’t have any copyright now at National, as far as I know. “So, I really don’t know why he left. And I will say, in all honesty that I’d like Jack to come back, I want him On-stage

One of Kirby’s few solo assignments in the 1960s, from Fantastic Four Annual #5 (1967).

at the San

what the readers might want. I think his material was a little better with us because we exercised some control. I remember on the very first issue of the Fantastic Four, I’d suggested in the synopsis a monster, and Jack drew a hundred red monsters. I said, ‘Jack, it’s more dramatic to have one monster that the reader worries about, than a hundred monsters.’ The trouble with Jack is that he’s so imaginative he tries to put every idea he can think of on every page. He tries to make every page a whole new original thought and action. That isn’t good story. You have to build up a mood. You’ve got to take one idea and stretch it over a few pages and milk the utmost drama out of it. It’s a matter of pacing—you don’t have a chance to catch your

Diego Con,

mid-1970s

. Photos by

Shel Dorf.

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Pencil art from the Silv

“So far we’ve done the Silver Surfer [Graphic Novel] which has turned out to be an extremely good book, I think. I understand it’s doing very well... “All the ideas are born from lots of people. Lots of people discuss them. Ideas are born and refined by a lot of people. Now for instance, you take Iron Man: We work on Iron Man and we give him one costume. Then we begin to change that costume into another costume. You have to modify it continuously. People are continuously changing the super-hero. I know at Marvel, an artist would get an idea to change a super-hero or somebody else would get an idea for a change in costume or a change in address or a change in lifestyle for the super-hero. Ideas are born among lots of people, lots of people. “I know I created the Silver Surfer and Galactus; in that particular instance it came out of a Biblical feeling. I couldn’t get gangsters to compete with all these super-heroes, so I had to look for more omnipotent characters, you know, super-villains. I came up with what I thought was God in Galactus; a God-like character. Still thinking about it in the Biblical sense, I began to think of a fallen angel, and the fallen angel was the Silver Surfer. In the story, Galactus confines him to the Earth, just like the fallen angel. So you can get characters from Biblical feelings. If you’re feeling great you can come up with maybe a humorous character. You can do characters on water—I’ve done them on water. Create this type of character; create this type of environment. The Silver Surfer has a surfboard; and at the time I created him, everybody was surfing, and I felt, why not have a cosmic creature who, you know, instead of the sea he uses the entire universe to surf around?”

Summer 1978

I attend my first major comics convention, the Atlanta Fantasy Fair, and pick up the Kirby Masterworks Portfolio from Jim Steranko’s Supergraphics table. I meet Stan Lee, and Jack’s new Silver Surfer Graphic Novel pages are on display. But I overhear some Marvel staffers make disparaging comments about how Jack has “lost it” and can’t produce decent work anymore. I am stunned, to say the least, as I’m still enjoying his work greatly at the time. Lee credits wife Joan for saying: “Why don’t you put some of the same activity and effort into comics that you put into your freelance work?” Asked if he has any regrets, Lee says: “I wish I had made my move at Marvel 20 years ago, had done the different things earlier. I was stupid—for my first 20 years, I did what my publisher wanted. And I think I should have gotten out of this business 20 years ago. I would have liked to make movies, to be a director or a screenwriter... I’d like to be doing what I’m doing here, but in a bigger arena.” July 20, 1978: Circus Magazine, Stan Lee interview by Ira Wolfman

Fall 1978

“Stan Lee is in New York. In fact, he’s all over the place. I rarely see Stan. His position is quite different than mine. Naturally, his duties are quite different... You know, I can’t account for whatever duties he has.

Nov. 8, 1978: Jack Kirby interviewed by Annie Baron-Carvais

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Kirby signs for fans [above], and hangs out with fan-turned-pro Len Wein, at the 1978 San Diego Con.

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Conflict Here, Lee is inexplicably equating inkers, colorists, and letterers—who despite their talents, are all basic production people—with the penciler of the strip, who actually contributes to the creation of story and plot. Does this give us insight into his own valuation of anyone who’s not handling the writing end of a comic book?

Winter 1979

While Kirby entrenches himself in the animation industry, People Magazine interviews Lee for a feature article. The headline reads: “Stan Lee, creator of Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk, is America’s biggest mythmaker.”

Spring 1979

On March 30, Jack Kirby has a cameo as a police sketch artist on The Incredible Hulk TV show episode “No Escape” [above]. In May, Lee’s New York apartment is robbed while he is in Los Angeles, giving him more reason to move to LA permanently. Stan is in talks with Lee Kramer, Olivia Newton-John’s manager and boyfriend, to produce a big-budget Silver Surfer movie, inspired by the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel.

Jan. 29, 1979: People Magazine interview with Stan Lee by Barbara Rowes

Men’s magazine Genesis interviews Lee: “Comics are a team effort. I can say I created SpiderMan, but Steve Ditko, the artist who worked on it with me, will say: ‘Hey, what about me? I drew it, and I helped with some of the plots.’ And

Panel from the third week

r strip.

of the Black Hole newspape

Fall 1979

that goes for the inkers, Lee with friends from the 1979 Genesis magazine interview. colorists, letterers, and editors. It’s such a complex process, how the hell do you know whom to pay for what?”

Lee and John Buscema collaborate to produce the first issue of The Savage She-Hulk, and a Silver Surfer story for Epic Illustrated #1, while Kirby goes back to his early newspaper roots and draws the comic strip adaptation of Disney’s film The Black Hole.

February 1979: Genesis magazine, Stan Lee interview by Steve Swires

As this year begins, Kirby had just wrapped up work on Depatie-Freleng’s 1978 The New Fantastic Four animated series, doing storyboards such as the above example. Kirby rehashed old FF comics for these 13 episodes, and both Lee and Roy Thomas provided dialogue, but Jack didn’t work directly with either of them.

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