Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said! (Expanded Second Edition)

JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR SEVENTY-FIVE PRESENTS:

&

Stuf’ Said!

Expanded Second Edition

The complex genesis of the Marvel Universe, in its creators’ own words

© Jack Kirby Estate

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Kirby & Lee

Acknowledgments Thanks to: Mark Alexander, Barry Alfonso, Jim Amash, Scott Anderson,

Robert Beerbohm, Blake Bell, Tom Bierbaum, Al Bigley, The Tom Brevoort Experience (https://tombrevoort.com/category/lee-kirby/), David Burd, Aaron Caplan, Nick Caputo, Dewey Cassell, Mark Clegg, Jon B. Cooke, Adrian Day, Ferran Delgado, Scott Edelman, Mark Evanier, Brett Ewins, Danny Fingeroth, Shane Foley, Pat Ford, Joe Frank, Mike Gartland, Glen Gold, Gary Groth, Bruce Haley, Heritage Auctions, Michael Hill, Rand Hoppe, Sean Howe, Richard Howell, Rob Imes, Richard Kolkman, Tom Kraft, Russ Maheras, Kevin J. Maroney, Alan McKenzie, Will Murray, Edward Nelson, Barry Pearl, Mark Poe, Jeffrey Lee Puckett, Philippe Queveau, Robby Reed, Beppe Sabatini, Arlen Schumer, Cory Sedlmeier, Steve Sherman, Jim Shooter, Fred Smith, Robin Snyder, Alexis Sottile, Rob Steibel, Aaron Sultan, Roy Thomas, Jim Van Heuklon, James Van Hise, Michael Vassallo, Mark Voger, Curtis Wong, and Ray Wyman who provided materials both directly and indirectly for this book, and inspiration from their own research and writings.

Copyrights

Agatha Harkness, Alicia Masters, Angel, Ant-Man, Aunt May, Avengers, Baron Mordo, Batroc, Beast, Beetle, Black Bolt, Agent 13/Sharon Carter, Black Panther, Boomerang, Bucky, Captain America, Captain Mar-Vell, Crystal, Cyclops, Daredevil, Destroyer, Destructon, Devil’s Advocate, Don Blake, Dormammu, Dr. Doom, Dr. Droom, Dr. Strange, Druid, Dum-Dum Dugan, Ego, Eternals, Fantastic Four, Foom, Galactus, Giant-Man, Green Goblin, Happy Hogan, Hawkeye, Heimdall, High Evolutionary, Him, Howling Commandos, Hulk, Human Torch, Hydra, Iceman, Inhumans, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, J. Jonah Jameson, Jane Foster, Janus, Jasper Sitwell, Juggernaut, Ka-Zar, Kang, Karnak, Kid Colt, Krang, Kronin Krask, Leader, Loki, Machine Man, Mad Thinker, Mangog, Marvel Girl, Marvelman, Mary Jane Watson, Medusa, Melter, Miracle Man, Molecule Man, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Odin, Paste-Pot Pete, Patsy Walker, Pepper Potts, Peter Parker, Plunderer, Prester John, Professor Xavier, Psycho-Man, Puppet Master, Quasimodo, Quicksilver, Rawhide Kid, Recorder, Red Skull, Ringmaster & His Circus of Crime, Sandman, Scarlet Witch, Sentinels, Sgt. Fury, Sgt. Muldoon, SHIELD, Sif, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, Sub-Mariner, Swordsman, Thing, Thor, Triton, Two-Gun Kid, Warriors Three, Wasp, Watcher, X-Men TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • Batman, Blackhawk, Blue Beetle, Boy Commandos, Brainiac, Captain Atom, Challengers of the Unknown, Clark Kent, Creeper, Darkseid, Forever People, Funky Flashman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Guardian, Hawk & Dove, Himon, Houseroy, Hunger Dogs, Jimmy Olsen, Joker, Justice League of America, Lex Luthor, Mister Miracle, New Gods, Newsboy Legion, OMAC, Orion, Penguin, Plastic Man, Sandman, Sandy, Shazam, Stan Bragg, Super Powers, Superman TM & © DC Comics • Comics Journal TM & © Fantagraphics • Star Trek, Bob TM & ©Paramount Television • “Split” Captain Marvel and the Terrible 5, Captain Nice, Destructor, Fatman, Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs, Secrets Behind The Comics, Sick magazine, Silver Spider, Sundance Kid TM & © the respective copyright holder • Private Strong, The Fly, The Shield TM & © Archie Comics • B-Man, Spyman, Tiger Boy TM & © Harvey Comics • Spirit TM & © Will Eisner • Thunder Agents TM & © Radiant Assets • 2001: A Space Odyssey TM & © Warner Bros.

Entertainment Inc. • Black Hole TM & © Walt Disney Productions • Roxie’s Raiders, Thundarr TM & © Ruby-Spears Productions • “The Family”, Beast Rider, Bombast, Captain Glory, Captain Victory, Chip Hardy, Coal Tiger, Dr. Mortalis, Mindmaster, Silver Star, Sky Masters, Spiderman, Starman Zero, Stereon TM & © Jack Kirby Estate • Destroyer Duck TM & © Steve Gerber and Jack Kirby • Fighting American, Night Fighter, Sunfire Man of Flame, Win A Prize TM & © Joe Simon & Jack Kirby Estates

Stuf’ Said!

Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said! (Expanded Second Edition) Researched, written, & edited by John Morrow dedicated to Jon B. Cooke & Richard Kolkman, for their tireless work documenting stuf’ said Proofreading by Eric Nolen-Weathington, Rob Smentek, Kevin Sharp, and John Morrow Softcover ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6 • Limited Hardcover ISBN: 978-1-60549-095-3 First Printing of the Expanded Second Edition • June 2019 • Printed in China web: www.twomorrows.com • e-mail: twomorrow@aol.com Editorial package © TwoMorrows Publishing, a division of TwoMorrows Inc. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies.

All Kirby artwork is © Jack Kirby Estate unless otherwise noted.

All editorial matter is © the respective authors.

Views expressed here are those of the respective contributors, and not necessarily those of TwoMorrows Publishing or the Jack Kirby Estate.

All rights reserved. No portion of this publication, except for limited review use, may be reproduced in any manner without express permission. All quotes and image reproductions are © the respective owners, and are used here for journalistic commentary, criticism, and scholarly analysis.

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Contents

Opening Arguments...................................4 The Rules of Law.......................................7 1940–1960: Preliminary Findings............9 1961: The Blitz.........................................19 1962: Personal Best................................25 1963: All-Out Assault..............................33 1964: The Build-Up..................................42 1965: Collaborations’ End.......................51 1966: Ragnarok........................................69 1967: Aftermath.......................................79 1968: Distance.........................................89 1969: Solitude..........................................97 1970: Departure.....................................109 1971–1974: Proving Ground.................117 1975–1978: Comings & Goings............129 1979–1994: Conflict..............................141 1995-On: Closing Arguments................163 The Verdict?...........................................173 [this page and previous] Detail panels from Fantastic Four #59.

Opening Arguments working for them. While Stan was the public face of Marvel, Kirby was a behind-the-scenes creative engine, helping steer the direction of virtually the entire line in the first few years of the 1960s. He not only brought an incredible sense of power and dynamism to Marvel’s line-up, he visualized countless characters, settings, and concepts that are just beginning to be mined today by the Marvel films that are breaking box office records around the world.

As the 1960s wore on, Jack was doing more of the work, via the “Marvel Method,” where the “artist” was responsible for much/ most/all of the plotting and pacing of the stories, while the “writer” concentrated on the words in the caption boxes and balloons, after the drawn pages were completed and the story totally fleshed out.

But Kirby was also seeing Lee get most of the credit—and since Lee was the editor, he had final say in making changes to Kirby’s stories, even tales he had minimal or no involvement with from the outset.

It led to irreconcilable differences between them, and by 1970, any semblance of a collaboration was over.

Add to that Marvel’s shortsighted insistence on withholding Kirby’s original art from him as a bargaining chip in the 1980s. They feared that his involvement in the creation of their characters would reflect poorly on them legally, and they’d have to pony up some equitable remuneration to him for all the creating he did as a freelancer. It was the perfect storm for a contentious battle, that inevitably reflected poorly on both men, as they disputed who actually created the Marvel Universe.

Long after Jack’s 1994 death, that bitter fight culminated in September 2009, when the Kirby family took steps to reclaim rights on characters he was involved with between 1958–1963 at Marvel Comics. There was a protracted legal battle, in which I played a minuscule part, but Disney became an enormous player, due to purchasing Marvel at that time for $4 billion. With that much money at stake, there was no way they were going to risk losing the copyrights on their investment without a fight.

As things stand today, following a 2014 settlement between Jack’s family and Marvel Comics (now owned by Disney), an injustice that had existed for over half a century has been righted. Kirby is now recognized as a co-creator, with Stan Lee, of the Marvel Universe and its major characters. Marvel says it in their comics, Disney says it in their movies, and the world at large is slowly catching on to what learned comics fans already knew. Money has changed hands and legal documents have been signed, so as far as the general population is concerned, it’s over. Kirby finally won— though I’d argue that Marvel, Disney, and Stan Lee also won, due to the goodwill this has and will generate for years to come.

But—and there’s always a “but” in comics history, isn’t there?—there’s still one technicality that hasn’t been resolved. Just who did what in that creation spree between Kirby and Lee in the 1960s? Kirby’s most ardent supporters say he did 90% of the work, and Lee hogged all the glory. Stan’s fans feel he came up with the basic ideas, innovated with his characterizations, and reined in Jack’s wackiest notions with deft editing and slick Madison Avenuestyle promotion.

So, who’s right? If you take all the hard-core partisans of either guy out of the picture, is there a way to help the remaining body of people who care about such things, reach a consensus on the topic?

I don’t know, but I’m going to give it the old college try in this book, named in tribute to Lee’s signature “’Nuff Said” catchphrase.

Originally, I announced this project back in Summer 2014,

see, it was also r #59. As you’ll 66’s Fantastic Fou g changed for Kirby and Lee. 19 in up aks spe the year everythin Black Bolt finally

I

f you’re at all knowledgeable about comic book history, you probably know that Marvel Comics got its start (at least as “Marvel Comics”) in 1961, with the debut issue of the Fantastic Four by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. The company existed before that, dating back to the late 1930s under the names “Timely Comics” and “Atlas Comics,” but FF #1 finally put Marvel on the map as an innovating company, after two previous decades constantly following others’ trends.

In the 1960s, though Kirby was the top artist to informed comic book fans, Stan Lee became the breakout star to the general public, garnering attention in the press as the hip writer who changed comics and super-heroes around, with a newfound complexity to their characterization. Lee’s m.o. was giving characters “hang-ups,” like Iron Man’s weak heart, Daredevil’s blindness, Spider-Man’s—well, acne, heartburn, post-nasal drip, allergies, chronic halitosis, and a dozen other maladies, depending on what Stan Lee interview you were reading. I’ve still never found most of those ailments in any of Spidey’s comics, but the public got the idea—Stan was doing groundbreaking writing, for comics anyway. Lee’s dialogue took the characters to new, hipper areas than readers had seen before, and he deserves the accolades for it. Marvel’s comics were different than anyone else’s, and by 1965, all their competitors were trying to copy the company, with little success.

Another reason they couldn’t duplicate Marvel’s popularity was because they didn’t have a visionary artist/storyteller like Jack Kirby 4

just months before the legal case was resolved. In light of that settlement, I decided we’d all had enough, and to let the matter rest, at least for awhile.

I knew I’d had enough at that point. After my January 2011 deposition as an Expert Witness in the case, and my participation in the Amicus Brief that helped the US Supreme Court decide whether or not to hear the Kirbys’ appeal (a decision we’ll never know the outcome of, since Disney settled just days before the Justices were to announce whether they’d take on this potentially landmark copyright case)—I was ready for a break. But this monster project kept nagging at me, mainly because I’ve never been able to reconcile some of what both Jack and Stan had said at various times since they worked together in the 1960s.

Where does the truth lie? And is there a simple answer to it?

To find out, I decided I’d take a lesson from what I learned in the Kirby/Marvel dispute.

Without dwelling on the specifics of that very long day of my deposition, I must’ve done something right, because Marvel and Disney’s legal team managed to get my testimony (and Mark Evanier’s) thrown out, on the basis that I wasn’t actually there, in the Marvel offices, between 1961–1965 when Stan and Jack were doing their thing. Since I wasn’t born until the waning days Stan Lee in the 1950s. of 1962, sure, I couldn’t dispute it was true. But it was disheartening that all the years I’ve spent researching and learning about both Kirby and Lee, was dismissed in a quick decision by a judge.

Had the Supreme Court Justices agreed to hear the case (and it was looking pretty clear to pundits that they were going to), my deposition might’ve been reconsidered, even though I wasn’t physically in the Marvel offices in the 1960s. But that’s the approach I’m taking with this book: Take the reader back there with the two men who knew what went on in Stan’s office when Jack visited on Fridays, to drop off his work and discuss the next storylines. Let both men testify by way of quotes, in real-time chronological order, making it as close to being there as you and I can get.

The issue of fairness was a big concern for me, but one I quickly was able to come to terms with. The relatively sparse number of Kirby quotes from 1961–1970, compared to the wealth of Lee quotations, should give you an idea what Jack was dealing with then. Stan was (and still is) Marvel’s mouthpiece, and though he does mention Kirby in most 1960s interviews, Lee quickly became a polished interview subject, and the talks logically centered around his involvement in the comics. Kirby’s interviews weren’t as smooth and scripted, but I’ve reconciled his relatively few rebuttal opportunities with a bit of my own speculation here and there (all clearly labeled as such) to hopefully balance the scales a little. One day, when someone starts a Stan Lee Collector magazine, there’ll be plenty of untapped quotes by Stan they can present, although I’m confident nothing short of Lee’s sealed 2010 court testimony could fundamentally add to this discussion beyond what I’ve got here.

I’ve never been a major follower of Steve Ditko’s work, or of Spider-Man, for that matter. And Ditko’s distaste for speaking out and appearing publicly puts him at even more of a disadvantage against Lee’s verbosity. So alas, there’s little I can do to rectify that disparity, but I think the few quotes from Ditko presented here speak well of him, and of his involvement at Marvel.

Now, let’s be realistic; there’s always the chance that some of the comments here will be unjustly prejudicial toward one side or the other. Over time, memories fade, and new motivations creep in—sometimes unconsciously, sometimes not. We all react to the world around us, and the events that shape our lives. Kirby and Lee weren’t immune to this, and those that worked with them weren’t either. Plus, there were literally billions of dollars riding on the 2010 courtroom battle. But though I’ve not put anyone under oath here, I’m going to assume the main witnesses are all telling the truth, through their own perceptions, within this book.

Here’s some background on the major players, in case you’re unfamiliar with some of them.

Stan Lee

From the start of his career, Lee’s personality won people over. Co-workers mostly adored him while he spent two decades cranking out unremarkable stories for Marvel, beginning in 1941.

But until Kirby and Ditko arrived in the late 1950s, there were no notable characters created by him, super-hero or otherwise. Then suddenly, groundbreaking new series and characters started appearing from 1961–1965, due to an epiphany he had (brought on by the urging of his wife). By 1966, Stan seemed more focused on building his public persona than creating anything new, and shortly after Kirby left Marvel in 1970, he moved up to the position of publisher and stopped writing comics. By the late 1970s, Lee was devoting all his time to a career in Hollywood, and today has finally achieved a level of celebrity previously unknown in the world of comics, regularly appearing in Marvel film cameos, and being recognized and loved by the public worldwide. He died November 12, 2018, just days after the first printing of this book went to press.

Jack Kirby

Almost from his first work in comics, Kirby was an innovator. He’s always been the “artist’s artist” within the comics industry, envied and imitated by his peers. But his greatest commercial success was always when working in conjunction with a level-headed, business-oriented personality like Joe Simon or Stan Lee to guide him. Jack had no real business acumen himself, and when he broke away from Marvel and Lee in 1970, the cutting-edge concepts were still there, but they lacked the focus and immediate Jack Kirby in early 1966. marketing potential of his previous work. Starting in the early 1980s, Jack was regularly dealing with Marvel’s lawyers, and was quite frustrated. By the time his original art battle became public in 1985, he was livid over his treatment by the company. In his 1989 Comics Journal interview, he was bitter after having spent the last part of his life waging that war. He died in 1994, cherished by his fans, but with no resolution about getting credit for his creatorship at Marvel.

5

Steve Ditko

encountered, and in working with him since 1997, I’ve never found him to be anything less than 100% fair, professional, and honest.

This talented artist sadly passed away during the writing of this book, on June 29, 2018. But he wasn’t going to be involved regardless; my inquiries to him over the years made that clear. His avoidance of the celebrity spotlight and adherence to his ethics, gives me confidence that the few public comments he gave (largely through friend and publisher Robin Snyder) were accurate and honest, according to his own recollections.

Steve Sherman & Mark Evanier

Both Steve and Mark served as Jack’s assistants in the early 1970s when he moved to DC Comics, and were involved in the 1969 Marvelmania fan club operations, dealing directly with Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. Steve has no reason for bias other than his friendship with Jack; he doesn’t owe Kirby any real career debt, as he never went into comics himself. While Mark does dabble in comics scripting, his main gig has long been writing for the wider entertainment industry, and he has been equally close friends with both Lee and Kirby. I’ve always found both of them to be reliable and trustworthy in their recollections.

Joe Simon

Always the consummate businessman, Simon was more renowned for his deals than his creative work, although he was a very adept artist in his own right.

But Kirby tended to get the lion’s share of the creativity credit in their relationship, while Simon steered the duo’s financial boat with a steady hand from one company to another. He had a flair for coming up with concepts and gimmicks that would stand out from the crowd, and he always looked out for Kirby’s best interests as well as his own. Once they parted ways, Kirby suffered without his cagey expertise in deal-making which kept Jack out of trouble. Simon died on December 14, 2011.

Wally Wood

A troubled but supremely talented artist, who first made a name for himself at EC Comics in the 1950s with his meticulously detailed work.

None other than Frank Frazetta had this to say about Wood in a 2001 interview with Dr. David Winiewicz: “Wood was a man’s man, and anything Wally said was heartfelt and authentic. No B.S. in Wally at all.

I appreciated that. Compared to Woody, everyone else is a hypocrite.”

Steve Sherman and Mark

Evanier, with Kirby at his

drawing board, circa 1970

.

John Morrow (Me)

I’ve been a Kirby fan since age 15, and didn’t grow up reading Lee’s dialogue; I began with pure Kirby at DC Comics in the 1970s and worked my way back to the 1960s Marvel books. It didn’t take long for me to develop a love for their collaborations, and when I learned in the mid-1980s that Stan wasn’t stepping in to help Jack with his original art fight, I was so disillusioned and angry that I destroyed the autograph I got from Lee in 1977. In 1991, I finally got to meet Kirby during a brief encounter at the San Diego ComicCon, but I had no idea that I’d end up producing a regular publication about the man, let alone publishing a whole line of books and magazines about comics history and creators.

Roy Thomas

Roy was involved in the early days of 1960s comics fandom, before working in the comics industry, first for DC Comics’ editor Mort Weisinger in 1965. After two difficult weeks there, he took Stan Lee’s writer’s test, passed with flying colors, and switched to Marvel Comics, where he eventually succeeded Lee as Editor In Chief. But he remains a fan at heart, relentless in his pursuit of documenting comic book history. While admittedly loyal to Stan Lee for helping his creative career blossom, Roy also has one of the sharpest memories I’ve ever

That’s my take on all the main witnesses. You are the jury, so prepare to examine all the evidence and make a ruling. I’ll be back at the end of this book with my own verdict, for what it’s worth.

Court is now in session!

I call to the stand Jack Kirby and Stan Lee. 6

The Rules of Law T

here are a few things to note in fully understanding my methodology for this book.

discussion to keep this distinction intact, rather than correct it.

Take It With A Grain Of Salt

Just like in a court of law, I want to present the factual evidence to be evaluated, with real-time quotes, and the memories of those who were involved. But there are instances where I’ve chosen to speculate, to help drive a point home or bring some clarity to the discussion.

Anywhere I feel I’m interjecting my own opinions forcefully or questioning the historical record, I preface them with this salt shaker icon. Feel free to completely ignore my ramblings and continue on with the “stuf’ said” by the key witnesses. I don’t mind being overruled.

Adding Some Color To My Font Choices

This was originally going to be a black-&-white printDetail from 1982’s Ca ed book, with all the quotes ptain Victor y #6. differentiated from my text by using a BLACK TYPEWRITER FONT. But as I got further into it, I felt its “oral history” approach would be better served if there was a clear demarcation of who was saying what, without overwhelming it with “Stan Lee said...” and “Jack Kirby replied...”. So throughout, Lee, Kirby, and Ditko (the three main players) receive their own unique font treatment, for easy identification. Lee as “writer” gets that same typewriter font for his quotes, except that it’s printed in RED. Wherever there’s a quote by Kirby, since he’s such a bold artist, I use a sans serif font printed in BLUE. Ditko, being so idiosyncratic, gets a unique script font printed in GREEN. For any conspiracy theorists out there, please know there was no intentional biblical or political connotations to my color choices.

All of the “character witnesses” that are quoted WORD BALLOONS: remembering past events are announced with a word balloon, and their typewriter font is in SEPIA.

The Need for Speed

To keep this truly chronological, unless it’s specifically indicated otherwise, all the dating and quotes in this book are in realtime—the time the stories were being worked on, not when they went on sale. The lead time with which Kirby, Ditko, and others were drawing their stories is important, so I’m making educated guesses.

For Kirby at least, I’m assuming these were the average number of months that Kirby was drawing a story ahead of its publication date: • 1958–1961 releases: three months ahead • 1962–1964 releases (with annuals thrown in): four months ahead • 1965-early 1969 releases (when he was also doing layouts for other artists, and later when his workload lessened to just three books per month): five months ahead on Fantastic Four, four months ahead on others • March 1969 to late 1969 (after moving to California): six months ahead on Fantastic Four, four-to-five months ahead on others • 1970 (after taking on more final work): back to five months ahead on Fantastic Four, four months ahead on others.

Feeling A Little Tense

Since this is a chronological examination of an historical era, I’ve decided to put the main text of it in first-person, to better convey the progression of time. Where I interject a quote by Kirby or Lee that was spoken much later, I bracket the year it was said (e.g.

[1969]) at the beginning of the quote, so it’s immediately apparent it wasn’t said concurrent with what preceded it.

This list is a very rough guide, only showing a likely average time when Jack might’ve been working on each strip, based on anecdotal evidence. If you want to see the spreadsheet I used as my guide, you can download it here:

The Fine Print

http://www.twomorrows.com/media/KirbyMarvelDates.xls

Yes, I know the footnotes and art captions are small. Again, this is an intentional choice I made, and not just to save space in this dense tome. As much as possible, I don’t want them to interfere with the flow of reading the main text chronologically. I’d like them to be more of a minor distraction, like a gnat, instead of a giant bumblebee buzzing around your head. But there’s good info there, so read them as you go along, if that works best for you.

It’s likely got a lot of inaccurate listings, but can serve as a starting point for giving us some idea of what Jack was working on at the time some of his and Stan’s quotes were being made. At the end of the day, this faulty list should be good enough, as few of the dates are that critical, and if I’m off by a month (or three, or even more), we’re still getting a general sense of the sequencing of work to comment about it. Since no definite listing of Jack’s production schedule exists, this’ll have to suffice.

Stan’s lead time is much easier to pinpoint accurately. An average of three months prior to the release date is when he would generally start dialoguing an issue. Again, it could vary (Ditko recounts waiting 54 days once to get a dialogued Dr. Strange story back for inking), but I need a general guide, so that’s what I’m using.

A Bullpen page or letter column was almost always written three months prior to the on-sale date (and four months at most), so those are easy to pin down. Comments in Fantastic Four #6 (1962), Strange Tales #137 (1965), FF #58 (1966), and my queries to Roy Thomas, let me pinpoint when most things were written in real-time.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman (-)

Throughout this book, if “Spiderman” has no hyphen (as opposed to “Spider-Man,” the trademarked spelling of Marvel’s signature character), it’s intentional because either: 1) I’m talking about the version of the character before Steve Ditko’s involvement, which Kirby brought to Marvel in that unhyphenated form (more on this later), or 2) it’s Stan Lee (or someone else) spelling it that way mistakenly, or using it inconsistently. Since the original art for Spidey’s first appearance shows it was unhyphenated before lettering corrections were made, I think it’s important to the chronological 7

There are some exceptions to be aware of:

the contrary, the reading public assumes one person “wrote” it, and the other one “drew” it, with no melding of talents between the two.

And that’s not the way comics worked at Marvel in the 1960s.

Kirby was especially a victim of the lack of credit that the Marvel Method causes. Where other artists (Gene Colan, John Romita, Don Heck) would flesh out scenes with minor details and additions, Kirby fleshed out entire stories by adding new concepts and prominent characters. He plotted or co-plotted much of Marvel’s output, even on stories where he only did basic stick-figure layouts for other artists to complete.

Examine these quotes from both men, and I think you’ll see what I mean. Remember, Stan’s in red, and Jack’s in blue:

In Amazing Spider-Man #25 (the first issue with Ditko’s plotting credit, on-sale date of March 11, 1965), Flo Steinberg apologizes for repeating a reader’s letter in both #22 and #23. That means Flo’s apology was inserted, probably at the last minute, into the letter column for #25 right after #23 went on sale on Jan. 12, 1965.

That means the letters page for #25 went to press after the Jan. 15, 1965 on-sale date for #23 at the earliest, making it two months before the on-sale date. But I’m willing to write this off as a correction sent to the printer at the last minute, and not the normal timing.

I’m working backward from release dates, but Jack worked far ahead, and sometimes in a different sequence than issues appeared on the newsstands. For instance, he inexplicably has 5-page stories in Rawhide Kid #43 and Kid Colt #119 in 1964, over a year after he’s stopped actively doing Westerns. Were these done a year earlier, and finally published in 1964? Or six months earlier? As a last-minute job Stan needed? There’s no way to know for sure.

The job numbers on each story can help somewhat in ascertaining the sequence in which Jack does each story, but only a little. A new job number was assigned when the first activity on a story took place, and that wasn’t necessarily Jack starting to draw it. It could be Stan assigning it to another writer (or himself) weeks or months before any actual work begins, and in that time Jack may’ve started drawing the job assigned the next sequential job number.

“You can call it plotted. I call it script . I wrote the script and I drew the story.”

Also, Mark Evanier told me that Jack didn’t necessarily work a regular schedule of Fantastic Four/Thor/Captain America this month, then another FF/Thor/Cap the next month, etc. When he finished one job, he’d ask Stan Lee what he wanted him to work on next. Since Jack was fast and worked far ahead, Stan would assign Jack’s next job based on any number of factors. For instance, if Joe Sinnott was about to need inking work, Stan might tell him to go ahead and do another Fantastic Four issue. If Joe were running behind, he might tell Kirby to draw another Thor or Cap strip, or give him some rush or fill-in job that needed doing the most.

1985: An Interview with Jack Kirby by Leonard Pitts Jr. Date determined by Pitts’ letter to Rand Hoppe at the Jack Kirby Museum.

“I did everything but put the words in the balloons. But all of it was mine, except the words in the balloons.”

“Every word of dialogue in those scripts was mine. Every story.”

Jack and Roz took a couple of trips to California prior to Jan. 1969 to find a new home, check out schools, etc.

So the latter half of 1968’s schedule wouldn’t fit a regular pattern.

More perplexing is Kirby’s 1969 work, after his move. He’s dropped Captain America, leaving only Fantastic Four and Thor on his schedule. The loss of that full book would’ve adversely affected his income, and based only on release dates, Jack was sitting around with one-third of his time in 1969 unfilled, thus one-third less money in his bank account that year. While that may’ve been the case some months, his work pace was constantly changing, and Mark Evanier said that at one point, Kirby may’ve done multiple issues of one strip in a row before jumping back on to another strip.

“I can tell you that I wrote a few lines myself above every panel...”

But there are a few key clues we can use, to pinpoint some specific dates. For instance:

“Did you ever read one of the stories after it was finished? ...I don’t think you ever read one of my stories...”

“They weren’t printed in the books.”

“I wasn’t allowed to write dialogue, Stanley. I wrote my own dialogue.”

• The letters page of X-Men #5 says that Stan and Jack will start on Fantastic Four #28 as soon as the letters page is completed. Since these pages were generally done three months prior to the ship-date of an issue, that notice was written Dec. 3, 1963, so Kirby would’ve started FF #28 around Dec. 9, 1963. Interestingly, that’s also the first issue of FF that featured margin notes, so that helps date the onset of their use, since FF was the book most likely to be ahead of schedule.

“Whatever was written in them was [insignificant]... it was the action I was interested in.”

“I don’t think you ever felt that the dialogue was that important... you felt, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter, anybody can put the dialogue in, it’s what I’m drawing that matters.’ ...I don’t agree with it, but maybe you’re right.”

• The first issues where Jack leaves margin notes on his pages for each strip, should all coincide within 1–2 months of each other. (There’s no reason to assume he would add margin notes to FF pages, but not Thor pages done right after, or vice versa.)

• The same logic applies to the start of using the smaller 10" x 15" art boards, rather than the 12" x18" “large art.” If Marvel told artists on a given date to start using the new size, the first issue of each strip that has it, probably would’ve been drawn within 1–2 months of each other. (Unless, of course, Jack was doing multiple consecutive issues of one comic before jumping to the next one, which we have no way of determining.)

“If one man is writing and drawing and doing a strip... you should have the opportunity to do the entire thing yourself. Create your own story.”

So we’re making an awful lot of educated guesses on these dates, and you should take them all with a grain of salt. But regardless of where he deviated from a regular production schedule month to month, it would’ve eventually come back around to righting itself once deadlines loomed. So there is value here.

Aug. 28, 1987: Robert Knight’s Earthwatch, Jack Kirby radio interview conducted by Warren Reece and Max Schmid, WBAI New York.

Jack came into the office initially, every other Friday. Since he could draw three pages per day easily, it would take him less than a week to draw a full issue. So each “story conference” would be for multiple books, to keep him busy for two full weeks.

Kirby and Lee both refer to the word “script” as meaning different things at different times. Sometimes it’s a fully-written, detailed explanation of what should happen in every panel on every page, such as what Lee types up in the 1950s before the Marvel Method comes into play. Other times, it’s Kirby’s set of fully drawn pages that are turned in and ready for Lee to add the blurbs and dialogue.

And still other times, “script” refers to a sheet of paper containing Lee’s dialogue, to be added to Kirby’s drawn pages by a letterer.

From his perspective, Kirby is “writing” the story when he takes a basic plot (either his, Lee’s, or a combination of both) and breaks it down into a multi-page story, pacing it, setting the scenes, and adding whatever creative touches and characters he comes up with.

He also considers his margin notes on the side of the pages to be the “script” for his “dialogue”; written in shorthand, yes, but adequate for someone to expand upon, to make more polished verbiage in the balloons.

Lee usually does more than just reword Kirby’s margin notes, sometimes changing Kirby’s meaning to make the story more in keeping with his own tastes. He views that dialogue creation as “writing” the story.

So when you see words like “script” and “write” and “story” highlighted in this book, take a moment to really analyze what the speaker means. It’s not always as apparent as it may seem. As you’ll see, when Kirby or Lee misunderstand what the other is talking about, it can lead to a lot of conflict in stuf’ said.

When is a Script not a Script, and a Writer not a Writer?

Just as an “artist” can be two things (Van Gogh and Beethoven were both “artists,” but only one of them was the kind of “artist” that actually generates paintings and sketches), so can a “writer.”

And in comic book parlance, a “script” can have multiple meanings.

Coming up with a story idea (or “plot”) in comics, is different than creating the dialogue for a story. Lee often lumps it all together, and uses vague generalities for what an “artist” and “writer” are, when in reality, the writer may do either or both of those tasks.

When Lee calls himself or someone else a “scripter” or “writer,” it doesn’t necessarily mean that person came up with the idea for the story (by themselves, or in collaboration with an “artist”); just that they wrote the final blurbs and word balloons on the printed page.

In the Marvel Method, the “artist” may contribute half, or all of the plot/idea for a story, and unless they specifically demand it, they usually don’t get public credit for that effort. Just listing them as “artist” or “art by...” sells them short. Conversely, listing someone as “writer,” “scripter,” or “written by...” may over-inflate their contribution, since by default it implies that person came up with the story plot/idea. Unless there’s a specific “plotted by” credit to 8

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Preliminary Findings Martin Goodman.

1940–1960

ster, NY) le (Roche d Chronic by Robert Rowe ocrat an on em D m : Si 1990 with Joe June 21, interview

1940

“We created Captain America. We did the first full book of Captain Marvel for Fawcett Publications.

I also created Blue Bolt, a super-hero comic book, for Curtis Publications, the Saturday Evening Post people, all in one year. It’s unbelievable; I just can’t believe what we did in 1940.

“Jack and I turned out so much stuff that we had many work methods. At the beginning, I would write the story right on the art board, making very rough layouts. Then Jack would tighten up the drawing, and if he had to, help with the story. We were both prolific writers. Then I would ink it. That was the true Simon and Kirby stuff.”

JOE Simon:

Jacob Kurtzberg and Joseph Simon collaborate for the first time on Blue Bolt #2. Kurtzberg’s debut work for Timely Comics (the future Marvel Comics) appears in Red Raven Comics #1 (August cover date), with the “Mercury” feature. It is the first time he signs his work by the name “Jack Kirby” (one of numerous pen names he initially uses, but it’s the one that sticks), and the team of Simon and Kirby is established. Sometime in late 1939/early 1940, Timely publisher Martin Goodman hires Joe Simon as the comics line’s editor, and, outside the office, Simon and Kirby conceive of Captain America, which they pitch to Goodman, who agrees to share 25% of the profits with the team on top of their rate of $12 per page. Kirby is hired as Timely’s art director for $75 a week.

June 21, 1990: Democrat and Chronicle (Rochester, NY), interview with Joe Simon by Robert Rowe

On December 20, Simon and Kirby’s Captain America Comics #1 goes on sale and reportedly sells nearly half a million copies.

Subsequent issues sell upwards of one million copies per issue. The title is an unqualified success and Timely’s biggest seller to date. The series continues until 1949 and the character, with his trusty sidekick, Bucky, also appears in numerous other Timely comics.

1941

Stanley Martin Lieber’s first professional comic book writing appears in Captain America Comics #3, a two-page text piece entitled “Captain America Foils the Traitor’s Revenge.” It’s his first use of the pen name “Stan Lee,” but won’t be the last.

“I hired Stan. [His] Uncle [Robert Solomon] brought him in and said, ‘This is Martin’s nephew’ (or whatever he was). Back then, comics had to have a minimum of two text pages in them for Second Class Mailing privileges. Nobody ever read that stuff, you know.

So whoever came along, I’d give them a job of writing the text.

JOE Simon:

1941: Captain America Comics #3 text story by Stan Lee, his first published work in comics.

Early 1940s photo at Coney Island: Joe Simon with his date, Jack and Roz Kirby, and unknown friends.

9

Stan thought he was so special when he was writing this stuff.

To his credit, I think that writing was okay.

“I thought he was a pesky but nice kid. I used to take him out all over. I didn’t guess what he would become—who could?”

because the guys at DC knew all about it, and it was all around the industry at the time.”

2007: Interview with Joe Simon, by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #76

Upon their departure, Stan Lee takes over as editor of the comics line for Martin Goodman. Kirby and Simon create hits at DC Comics, including the World War II sensation Boy Commandos.

2007: Interview with Joe Simon, by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #76

Late 1941

1942

Before completing their work on Captain America Comics #10, Timely’s accountant reveals to Kirby and Simon that they are being cheated out of promised profits from the title as originally negotiated with Goodman.

“I was bitter about the way they took advantage of Jack and me on the original Captain America.

We were supposed to be getting a percentage of the books. That’s why we left them. They guys were like cloak-and-suiters, you know? Keeping it from pushcart to pushcart in those days. Totally unethical. And sometimes... sometimes it was a mistake for them.”

JOE Simon:

Lee enters the US Army in early 1942, serving first in the Signal Corps, and later in the Training Film Division, writing manuals and training films.

Vincent Fago fills in as editor until Lee returns home. Kirby marries sweetheart Rosalind “Roz” Goldstein on May 23.

January 9, 1992: Asbury Park Press (NJ), Joe Simon interview by Mark Voger

I had to look up the expression “cloak-and-suiter” myself, and found it meant a small-timer who thinks only short-term, and often cost themselves money by making short-sighted or unethical decisions trying to save some coin.

1943

Kirby is drafted into the US Army on June 7, and will land on Omaha Beach in Normandy on August 23, 1944, two-anda-half months after D-Day. After serving in battle in the European Theater, Kirby is honorably discharged on July 20, 1945. Joe Simon enlists in the U.S. Coast Guard this year to fulfill his service commitment during World War II, and serves stateside.

1944

On February 5, Republic Studios releases the first installment of the 15-chapter movie serial, Captain America. The names of the two men who created the character are not listed in the credits.

pany in 1941, Kirby defect to the com comics after Simon & wartime hit.

Ads that appear in DC Commandos, their big Boy on king wor S&K of accompanying a photo

By now, the duo are recognized throughout the industry as a top creative team in the field.

Clandestinely, the partners contact Jack Liebowitz, co-owner of DC Comics, the industry’s top publisher, and negotiate a deal: $500 every month in return for 25 pages of comics (extra for any additional work). Covertly preparing their DC stories, Simon and Kirby’s secret deal is uncovered by Goodman and the two, after finishing their last issue of Captain America, are fired. Kirby assumes it is young Stan Lee who rats them out.

“When we left there, Kirby had thought that Stan was responsible for spreading the news that we were working on other stuff, and he said, ‘If I ever see that guy again, I’m going to kill him’... but it had to be an open secret that we had signed a deal with DC, JOE Simon:

Lobby card for the 1944 Captain America serial.

10

Witness Protection

To get a sense of what Simon and Kirby were up against as freelancers, one needs to look no further than this 1947 pamphlet, that managed to completely rewrite history regarding the creation of Captain America. Was Lee just currying favor with Goodman, or did Martin direct him to write this fluff? Either way, no mention was made of the actual creators.

But it does succinctly outline how the production process worked in comics at that time, including one important statement by Lee: “The editor is always the KEY MAN between the artist and the writer!”

11

1947

Simon and Kirby, both back from the war, produce Young Romance #1, launching a highly successful and widely copied new romance genre in comics.

In November, Stan Lee self-publishes Secrets Behind The Comics. Lee, now editor and chief writer at Timely Comics, states that publisher Martin Goodman is the impetus for the creation of Captain America, with no mention of Simon or Kirby’s involvement. Lee also has an article titled “There’s Money In Comics!” published in Writer’s Digest.

“We didn’t anticipate any comic book’s durability when we were doing it. If we had, we would’ve been more careful with the copyrights and the ownership. We didn’t think about ownership because we thought it was just a living, something that was going to pass us by and that we’d have to do something else—advertising or book illustration. But we never thought they’d have fan clubs or collections of stories in hardcover or anything like that. It was the farthest thing from our minds.”

JOE Simon:

June 21, 1990: Democrat and Chronicle (Rochester, NY), interview with Joe Simon by Robert Rowe

Stan’s own young romance culminates in December with marriage to British-born model Joan Boocock after a whirlwind courtship.

the duo sets out to create their own new patriotic hero, Fighting American, along with his trusty sidekick, Speedboy.

“When we first got married, we had a fourth floor walk-up brownstone apartment on 96th Street between 5th and Lexington Avenue. Stan had $5,000 in the bank—a bloody fortune at that time.”

Editor Sid Jacobson at Harvey Comics gives an assessment of the Silver Spider concept in a memo dated February 23.

In April, the book Seduction of the Innocent by psychologist Dr. Fredric Wertham is published, sparking an anti-comics backlash with the public, and the adoption of a stringent Comics Code. When asked if he personally came under fire because of it, Kirby confirms:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

1953

Late this year, Simon and Kirby start their own publishing company, Mainline, and sublet space from friend Al Harvey, head of Harvey Comics. Captain Marvel artist C. C. Beck, needing a job after long-standing employer Fawcett folds its comics line, asks Joe Simon for work, and an unused Silver Spider story, with writer Jack Oleck, is the result—a concept that will soon prove pivotal to both Lee and Kirby.

In October, Atlas Comics’ Young Men #24 is published, briefly reviving Captain America. This infuriates Simon and Kirby, due to their past dispute with Goodman over profits on the character, so

[1970] “Sure, everybody did. I thought it was kind of stupid but there was nothing I could do about it. I was in a poor position to do anything about it. I was doing well enough but sometimes the times themselves—they’ll run away and you become part of whatever’s happening. It just carries you along. It’s like a flood, you just try to hold your head above the water. Gradually it subsides in some manner. You start to function again.

“Wertham... made a living out of being anti-comics... He has a point in what he says. Sure, keep violence out of comics. Don’t cross the line. Every censor says that. ‘Keep your standards up. What are your standards? Where is the line?’”

1970: Kirby interview from Train of Thought #6

1955

Simon & Kirby’s own comics company Mainline goes out of business, resulting in lean times and the pair parting ways. Kirby goes looking for other work, mainly from DC Comics. Why exactly do Simon and Kirby stop working together? Kirby is hesitant to share too many details about it: 12

Dr. Fredric Wertham

1954

Joan Lee:

gone into it, but he never liked it. His heart had always been with comics, so he stuck with comics. So Joe went his way, and Jack went his way. They both had families to support, so they did the best they could... It was just economics.”

December 12, 1995: Roz Kirby interview conducted by John Morrow for Jack Kirby Collector #10

“By ’53, we were doing Mainline and we were also getting other books together, such as The Challengers of the Unknown. We did that in our shop while we were waiting for sales figures on our other books. After Mainline folded, we started shopping it around, along with other features.”

JOE Simon:

2007: Interview with Joe Simon, by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #76

The remaining finished Mainline material goes to Charlton Comics to be published. There are several unused concepts by Simon and Kirby that are languishing at this point: Night Fighter, Sunfire (Man of Flame), Sky Giant (who has a face reminiscent of the Skrull characters Jack will use in his later Marvel work), and Challengers of the Unknown. One of the Night Fighter presentation pieces is created from an unused Fighting American cover, showing that Kirby, at least, still has hopes for a revival of the super-hero genre.

1954: Stan Lee at Atlas Comics, the forerunner of Marvel.

[1964] “Why did Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis break up? We both decided it would be better for both of us. But, I’d rather not talk about it.”

Spring 1964: Masquerader #6 interview by Len Wein

[1969] “It was just time to do it. Sometimes the times develop when these things happen, and it just happened, that’s all... somehow there are things coming up in each of our lives that don’t coincide, in which we just can’t work things out. And things develop in your private life, things develop in your business life, that just don’t integrate. They just don’t integrate what each of you plan on doing. And then you just drift apart.”

But as the lean times continue, Kirby works on titles for Harvey Comics, such as Western Tales, romance titles for Prize, and humor work for Charlton. He also draws random covers and preps several ideas for newspaper strips, in an attempt to leave the moribund comics field. None of these ever gets off the ground, though a few would come in handy years later.

November 1969: Shel Dorf and fans interview Jack Kirby at the Kirby home in Orange County, California

[1970] “Well, it was a bad venture, that’s all. It was a poor time to do it, and we did it, and we suffered for it. And they were good books; they were doing as well as any other books. But the other books were doing poorly. That’s the only thing I can say. But they were good books.”

Aug 1–3, 1970: Panel at San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con

[1975] “[Joe] was discouraged. A lot of guys were and Joe wasn’t the first guy to try for bigger things. When Crestwood went under, it was typical of a lot of bad breaks we all had to put up with.”

1975: New York Comic Art Convention booklet

“The field was very bad, and they were both looking for work at that time. But Jack was always able to get work. Not as much, but he was always able to find work. Jack never liked the advertising field. I’m sure he could have Roz Kirby:

1956

Kirby produces the lead story for Showcase #6 at DC, featuring the Challengers of the Unknown concept he brings over from Mainline. During this period, Kirby is doing stories for DC’s House of Mystery, House of Secrets, and the “Green Arrow” strip in Adventure Comics—on occasion, employing wife Roz and himself as inker to bring in extra income.

In September, Kirby’s five-page “Mine Field” story is published in Battleground #14, marking his return to Timely Comics, by then called Atlas.

This begins Jack’s initially sporadic, but ultimately long-running work with writer/editor Stan Lee. Kirby produces stories for The Black Rider, Yellow Claw, and others, where he is often reduced to inking his own work or enlisting wife Roz to help with the brush to make ends meet. ics Com ded his work at DC attempts by Kirby inclu Lee is still working at Atlas on unoriginal and Challengers of Pre-Marvel super-hero ics, Com re entu Adv in feature s. on the “Green Arrow” rs acquires super-power acte char his stories in a variety of copycat books and genres. of one re the Unknown #3, whe 13

Exhibit A: Pre-’60s Presentation Art Kirby, with Simon and alone, was doing presentation art for new ideas prior to working at Marvel Comics in the late 1950s, and long after. Whether as cover mock-ups, fully rendered studies with notes explaining a character in detail, or sample continuity for a proposed newspaper comic strip, it’s standard procedure to help sell an idea. Only a few examples remain, since Kirby would rework any of these speculative images he could into paying jobs.

[1969] “This is a presentation I used for Sky Masters when I first sold the strip to the Matthew Adams Syndicate...”

August 1969: Interview by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld

14

While not creatively fulfilling, it was steady work, as recounted by one of his lead artists of the time: “Stan is really an amazing writer in the 1950s. You should have seen him behind his desk. He’d take out yellow legal paper and he’d block it off, four or five or six panels, and he’d letter into the panels the balloon and the dialogue, and captions that he wanted. And, of course, then they typed it up into a script form. He did full scripts for every story he wrote during the 1950s until the Comics Code Authority pushed the comic book industry into near bankruptcy and oblivion. He really is a prodigious, tireless worker.”

JOE SiNNOTT:

2006: Interview with Joe Sinnott by Tim Lasiuta, for Brush Strokes With Greatness

In November, Martin Goodman turns his distribution over to American News Company, which ultimately turns out to be another disastrous “cloak-and-suiter”-style decision.

“I loved Martin and thought he was a wonderful man—a gentleman of the old school, a self-made man. Not particularly generous, but nobody’s perfect.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

1957

On April 25, American News Co. loses its largest account, Dell Publications, causing panic among ANC’s other clients, including Martin Goodman. In late April-May, Stan Lee tells artists there will be no more assignments for the immediate future, as Goodman seeks another distributor. On May 17, ANC shutters its doors for good. This comes to be known as the “Atlas Implosion.”

Sunday, Sept. 7, 1958: The Pittsburgh Press (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)

Lee slowly resumes making limited new story assignments from late July-August, while using what existing inventory he can. It won’t be until February 1959 that all of Marvel’s titles are getting at least some new stories, but he keeps Atlas artist and close friend Joe Maneely as busy as possible.

In August 1957, the US experiences a business recession, which doesn’t begin to stabilize until April 1958.

“When we would go to Martin’s for dinner, it was always ‘The damn wholesalers owe me money!’ That was the biggest mistake Martin Goodman made, when he shut down his own distribution company in the 1950s because he thought he’d make more money by going with the American News Company. No sooner did he make the switch, than the ANC went bankrupt and Marvel was left high and dry with no distribution for a while.”

Joan Lee:

1957 Source: Tom Lammers’ 2005 article “Atlas Shrugged,” from Alter Ego #49

Winter 1958

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

In late May-June, Goodman signs with Independent News (IND), the distributor that is a subsidiary of comics rival DC Comics. IND only agrees to carry eight Atlas comic books per month, so Goodman switches to 16 bi-monthly titles; still, an 80% reduction in the company’s output.

This creates a huge backlog of approximately 1700 unused pages which will not be exhausted until July 1959; this includes several Black Rider stories by Kirby.

Early this year, an agent from the George Matthew Adams Service asks DC editor Jack Schiff for a science-fiction comic strip for his newspaper feature syndicate.

Schiff brings in Kirby and writers Dick and Dave Wood to create Sky Masters of the Space Force, and Kirby recruits Wallace Wood to ink the strip (Wood also inks Kirby on Challengers of the Unknown, the title spun-off from Showcase after a multi-issue successful tryout).

Spring 1958

On April 15, Jack Schiff draws up a formal agreement specifying royalty percentages for each person involved in Sky Masters.

Kirby, without Joe Simon to handle the business end of things, signs this “napkin contract” guaranteeing Schiff 5% of the profits, while Kirby will have to fund all the art and production (including paying the inker) from his own share—a bad situation for Kirby financially, which will eventually lead to Wally Wood departing as inker on the strip, and the faster, less expensive Dick Ayers taking over inking the second year.

15

TURNiNG POiNT! Summer 1958

On June 8, Joe Maneely dies, leaving Stan Lee without his most prolific artist of the era.

“I remember that wonderful man who fell off the train—Joe Maneely. One martini too many probably, coming back from New York. That was terrible. Stan was crazy about him. I can just see his thick, black hair right now. He was very warm, very easy going, very dear. We used to have him at our parties in Hewlett Harbor and Joe would always get up to sing.

He was not only a great artist but he had a marvelous voice.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 1958: Lee and Joe Maneely, and [left] a Maneely promotional image of the pair.

[1989] “Marvel was on its ass, literally, and when I came around, they were practically hauling out the furniture. They were literally moving out the furniture. They were beginning to move, and Stan Lee was sitting there crying. I told them to hold everything, and I pledged that I would give them the kind of books that would up their sales and keep them in business, and that was my big mistake.

“It came about very simply. I came in [to the Marvel offices] and they were moving out the furniture, they were taking desks out—and I needed the work! I had a family and a house and all of a sudden Marvel is coming apart. Stan Lee is sitting on a chair crying. He didn’t know what to do, he’s sitting in a chair crying—he was just still out of his adolescence. I told him to stop crying. I says, ‘Go in to Martin and tell him to stop moving the furniture out, and I’ll see that the books make money’.”

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted

by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

Kirby, needing still more work, goes to Atlas—and this is where Kirby and Lee’s accounts of what happen deviate.

In multiple interviews later, Kirby relates a similar scene: [1985] “When I came up to Marvel, it was closing that same afternoon, Stan Lee had his head on the desk and was crying. It all looked very dramatic to me, but I needed the job. I was a guy with a wife and three kids and a house, and I wanted to keep it. And so, having no rapport with Martin Goodman, who was the publisher—Stan Lee was his cousin—I told Stan Lee that we could keep the place going.

And I told him to try to tell Martin to keep it going, because we could possibly revive it.”

Summer 1989 (published Feb. 1990): The Comics Journal #134 interview conducted by Gary Groth

These quotes are at the center of why people will question Kirby’s mental acuity in the late 1980s. Most had never heard this version of events previously, and taken out of context, it does sound like Jack—bitter from the battle with Marvel Comics you’ll read about later in this book—is going overboard and making things up.

1985: Interview with Jack Kirby by Leonard Pitts Jr.

[1998] “I never remember being there when people were moving out the furniture. If they ever moved the furniture, they did it during the weekend when everybody was home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, just like the time he was quoted as saying that he came in and I was crying and I said, ‘Please save the company!’ I’m not a crier and I would never have said that. I was very happy that Jack was there and I loved working with him, but I never cried to him.”

May 1998: Stan the Man and Roy the Boy: A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas, Comic Book Artist #2

Kirby loyalists have tried to explain away Kirby’s comments. At the end of Bud Schulberg’s novel What Makes Sammy Run?, the character Sammy Glick (who Kirby is known to identify Stan Lee with) is sobbing because his bombshell fiancée cheated on him—can this be where Jack gets the mental image of Stan crying at his desk? Or maybe there’s a much more logical explanation:

Nov. 1958: Kirby clowning around with his kids.

[1985] “When I came up to Marvel in the late Fifties, they were just about to close up, that very afternoon! I told them not to do it. Marvel is a case of survival. I guaranteed them that I’d sell their magazines, and I did. I did the monster stories or whatever they had and they began to liven up a bit.”

“Jack’s recollection of seeing Stan crying shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. When I constructed a timeline of job numbers, I was shocked to find that Joe Maneely’s last story and Jack’s first story in Strange Worlds #1 (‘I Discovered the Secret of the Flying Saucers!’) were only a few digits apart. I Michael Vassallo:

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview, conducted by James Van Hise

16

Another longtime Marvel stalwart also recalls those dark days:

immediately asked Dick Ayers to check his work records on an equally close western he did, and his work records corroborated that all these stories were commissioned within one or two days of Joe Maneely’s death on June 8th, 1958! Immediately it made possible sense to me that if Jack had in fact arrived looking for work on the following Monday, June 10th, he would have found Stan Lee in his office inconsolable, and predicting the soon demise of Goodman’s already tenuous line of eight titles a month.

“Whatever anyone may want to say about Stan, he was very close to Maneely, had worked with him since late 1949, and depended on him to launch many/most of the Atlas character features in the western, war comics throughout the 1950s.

He was the fastest artist he had (Jack Kirby-fast, possibly faster, by all accounts) and after the implosion he was drawing most of the covers and handling the Two-Gun Kid feature. There just wasn’t enough new material to keep him busy, so he was also simultaneously at DC and also Charlton. But even more importantly for Stan, he was a partner on their ‘Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs’ newspaper syndicated feature, both hoping to catch lightning in a bottle and leave the dregs of the comic book industry.

“So taking all of that together, the timing and the relationship, it is ‘very’ likely Jack did find Stan, not necessarily bawling his eyes out, but very upset that morning when he went in looking for work.”

“Things had started getting really bad, I guess, in 1958... And one day, when I went in, [Stan] looked at me and he said, ‘Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn’t even say hello to me.’ He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, ‘You know, it’s like a ship sinking and we’re the rats. And we’ve got to get off.’ So he told me, ‘Try to find something else’.”

Dick Ayers:

Dick Ayers interviewed by Roy Thomas and Jim Amash, Alter Ego #31, December 2003

Like most other practitioners of this tumultuous time (including Kirby), Lee tries numerous ways to get out of comics in the 1950s. I encourage readers to see Alter Ego #148 for much more detailed accounts than I can include here.

What’s not in dispute is that, though super-heroes aren’t yet seriously considered, Kirby receives assignments for short stories in Strange Tales #67 and Tales of Suspense #2. This humble beginning ushers in what will become the “Atlas Monster” era that hits fullforce in 1959, featuring creatures such as Groot and Fin Fang Foom.

By July, Jack Schiff requests a higher percentage on Sky Masters, at which Kirby balks. Schiff subsequently fires Kirby from Challengers of the Unknown, and he is blacklisted from working at DC Comics.

August 1959

letter to inker Dick Ayers, and a detail from the Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs with a character based on Stan’s strip, next-door neighbor’s son, Tomm y Goodkind.

As a child Tommy had a speech impediment, which Stan had fun with in the strip.

Michael Vassallo, via e-mail with Michael Hill, October 22, 2014, and January 4, 2015

There’s something Stan fails to mention in his 1998 response, which would lend credence to Jack’s account: That around this time, Marvel is closing its doors, exactly as Kirby states. Joe Simon recalls the precarious nature of Martin Goodman’s comics company at this juncture: “Jack was going through this thing with Marvel where they were going out of business. We had some meetings, both with Stan Lee and with Jack, at that time.

“Stan Lee came to see me at Harvey, and said he was out of work. I told him to start his own company and I showed him how to do it. And I put Jack to work on the Archie stuff. “[Stan] didn’t know anything about publishing.

I remember it to this day. We went to lunch at the Carnegie Deli, and we sat across the way from Tony Randall.”

JOE Simon:

2007: Interview with Joe Simon, by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #76

Another account, from another source, seems to confirm this as well: “My dad (Bruce Jay Friedman) actually worked at Magazine Management, which was the company that owned Marvel Comics in the Fifties and Sixties, so he knew Stan Lee pretty well. He knew him before the super-hero revival in the early Sixties, when Stan Lee had one office, one secretary and that was it. The story was that Martin Goodman, who ran the company, was trying to phase him out because the comics weren’t selling too well.”

Drew Friedman:

August 8, 2010: Interview with Drew Friedman, conducted by Kliph Nesteroff, WFMU’s Beware of the Blog.

17

Fall 1958

On September 8, Kirby’s Sky Masters of the Space Force syndicated newspaper strip debuts across the US. It runs through February 25, 1961, and appears December 24, 1958 Sky Masters of the Space Force comic strip, by Kirby, with Wally Wood inking. in some 325 newspapers at its Mainline concept Night peak. A promotional article appears in newspapers on September 7.

Fighter, who can “walk up In September, Strange the sides of skyscrapers Worlds #1, Kirby’s first work with his amazing magnetic for Atlas after Maneely’s boots.” death, is published.

On October 16, the In November, Simon Sky Masters court trial is and Kirby briefly reunite held in White Plains, New to produce The Double Life York. On December 3, of Private Strong for Archie Kirby loses the lawsuit, Comics. and is ordered to pay On December 11, damages. The whole Kirby learns Schiff is debacle has to make suing him for breach of Kirby skeptical of contract. In response, working with editors, Kirby countersues Schiff. especially without Joe Simon around to watch his back.

As the comics As the year draws industry slowly starts to to a close, Lee and Kirby resurrect and revamp the recover throughout this 1950s Atlas cowboy title The Rawhide Kid, beginning a lively (albeit year, Kirby will draw short-lived) romp for the team in the western genre, which extends a wealth of monster into Gunsmoke Western, Two-Gun Kid, and Kid Colt Outlaw. stories for Strange Tales, Tales of Suspense, Tales Meanwhile, over at DC Comics, the try-out magazine The to Astonish, and Journey into Mystery.

Brave & The Bold debuts the Justice League of America, a super-team consisting of the company’s top super-hero characters. After three “...they were putting out... Journey into Larry issues, Justice League is awarded its own title—a sign of sales success Mystery... Tales to Astonish.... I remember Jack Lieber: that Martin Goodman would notice.

Kirby was usually doing the lead story, and Don Heck was there. Ditko used to do the story at the end of the books, and later he and Stan did Amazing Adult Early this year, Jack learns his wife Roz is pregnant with their Fantasy. At the time I had a room in Tudor City, and I was writfourth child. By summer, Kirby is producing art for Gilberton’s ing stories for Jack to draw. Jack was so fast, and I was learnClassics Illustrated line of educational comics. It’s a creatively unsating to write. isfying job he no doubt picked up due to the impending addition “I remember that Kirby was so fast he could draw faster to his family, and no prospects for better-paying work. Kirby only than I was writing! Stan would say to me, ‘Jack needs another produces a few frustrating assignments for Classics Illustrated, due script!’” to the editors’ meticulous demand for historical accuracy and seemOn any Atlas monster stories where Lee’s signature isn’t to be ingly endless revisions. found, it’s likely the story is dialogued by Larry Lieber or someone In September, daughter Lisa Kirby is born. With a new mouth else in the Bullpen—although the alliterative names of creatures like to feed, and the comics industry still in the doldrums, a new level of Fin Fang Foom screams Lee’s involvement on some level, at least in desperation may begin to set in. By Kirby’s recollection, he pitches plotting. “Stan made up the plot, and then he’d give it to me, and ideas to Marvel for new super-hero books, to get more work: I’d write the script ... I would follow from Stan’s plots.”

1959

1960

[1987] “The only thing I knew best was comics and I went back to Marvel and Marvel was in very poor straits—all comics were in poor straits... of course I didn’t change things in one day; but I knew that in a couple of months I could do it. And that’s where all your Fantastic Fours come from. That’s where Thor comes from. I took anything powerful that could sell a magazine—and I did.”

1999: Larry Lieber interviewed by Roy Thomas, from Alter Ego #2

In February, Simon and Kirby produce The Fly for Archie Comics. The genesis of the super-hero is related to the early ’50s development of the Silver Spider project, and will, in Kirby’s recollection, lead to his suggestion to Stan Lee about the concept of Spiderman. The Fly, like Spider-Man later, also has the ability to walk up and down walls, and likely is inspired by Kirby’s unused

Dec. 4, 1987 (published Jan 22, 1988): UCLA Daily Bruin interview, conducted by Ben Schwartz

18

1961 ky final S has Kirby’s e , H 5 .

2 t y in r ruar sees p ue to On Feb y strip on it, d own il y a e d n o s m r e is g t h in s f s a o o M ly l out over radual producing it chiff S been g f k o c a s J e s y n a e p p x o the e aving t uit loss. , and h s t pocket his law ll in” a , he’s “a depend on o w rse y r l o e t r e : tte compl a plan For be rtunes he has . his fo s, and ff. u t s Marvel any’s succes w ne mp ds with the co entum.” e stan ain mom litz th g b o o t t d e m e e s “I tried f w stuf The ne

The Blitz (another Kirby team strip) and Marvel’s FF. [1985] “I try to vary my characters. They may be stock [characters], I won’t deny that. That may be a formula, a personal formula, that I use unconsciously.”

l #134 ics Journa roth The Com yG b. 1990): nducted by Gar Fe d he co 89 (publis interview mmer 19

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted

by James Van Hise

Su

Spring 1961

Lee’s two-page plot synopsis for the first issue of Fantastic Four is the subject of much controversy, which will be explored later in this book.

It centers around its authenticity, but more so, about whether it is created before or after Lee and Kirby discuss the new Fantastic Four concept.

As much as I’m trying to avoid speculation here, I’m about to sprinkle a little bit in, based on the historical record, to hopefully add some food for thought to the dispute:

As the Atlas’ monster creatures are slowly losing their popularity, something else is occurring that will change comics forever: The beginnings of the Marvel Universe, which Lee recounts numerous times over the years, much like this: [2009] “At the time, DC Comics had a book called The Justice League, about a group of superheroes, that was selling very well. So in 1961 we did The Fantastic Four. I tried to make the characters different in the sense that they had real emotions and problems. And it caught on. After that, Martin [Goodman] asked me to come up with some other superheroes... All of the characters at Marvel were my ideas...”

[1986] “I came in with presentations. I’m not gonna wait around for conferences. I said, ‘This is what you have to do.’ I came in with Spiderman, the Hulk, and the Fantastic Four. I didn’t fool around. I said, ‘You’ve got to do super-heroes.’ I took Spiderman from the Silver Spider—a script by Jack Oleck that we hadn’t used in Mainline. That’s what gave me the idea for Spiderman. I’ve still got that script .”

2009: “How I Did It: Stan Lee of Marvel Comics” by Stan Lee, published in Inc. Magazine

But Kirby will recall that pivotal time very differently.

“Jack told me that he came up with all of the titles at once. He called it a ‘blitzkrieg’. He felt if he put out a bunch of new books at once, it would make a splash. He had FF, Spiderman, The X-Men, Thor, and Hulk. “[He probably said this] in the early ’70s. I can’t recall why it came up. I just remember Jack was very adamant about how he had to keep the doors open and how it required a complete revamp.”

Steve Sherman:

May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Feb. 2018: Steve Sherman e-mail to Patrick Ford, and June 2018: E-mail to John Morrow

TURNiNG POiNT! Sometime between April-May, Fantastic Four #1 is conceived by Lee and Kirby, greenlighted by Martin Goodman, and drawn by Kirby. Jack has said he had been pushing for more super-heroes at the time:

June 1961: Kirby celebrates at his son Neal’s Bar Mitzvah.

When Kirby makes these comments in the 1980s, they raise a lot of eyebrows of skeptical fans—but then the unused Jack Oleck/C.C. Beck “Silver Spider” story surfaces, giving it some credibility. When considered at this point in the chronology, this quote instead raises some interesting questions. After all, wouldn’t Lee need to have some sort of visual presentation for Martin Goodman, to get approval before his skeptical publisher would take a risk on canceling existing books, and trying something new? For a new character, wouldn’t Jack have to submit something for his editor to approve, before starting on a full story?

[1985] “...there was a rigid caste system between the editors and the fellows who turn the magazines out, and the publisher. There was no such thing as an artist or a writer dealing with the publisher. The structure was rigid. That’s why I say that Joe [Simon] was valuable in his respect because he was able to deal with the publishers.”

[1969] “I tried to work it out with Stan, to hint about super-heroes.

There were a few still going but they didn’t have the big audience they had. There was a thing I was involved in, The Fly, which got a reaction and because of that I told Stan that there might be a hope for super-heroes. ‘Why don’t we try Captain America again?’ I kept harping on it and Marvel was quiet in those days, like every other office, and then things began to pick up and gain momentum.”

Early 1969: Kirby interview, conducted by Mark Hebert (published Nov.-Dec. 1976 in The Nostalgia Journal #30–31)

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Lee has claimed repeatedly that Goodman heard Justice League of America was selling well at DC Comics, and Martin instructed him to create a team of super-heroes. Interestingly, there are marked similarities to the respective origins of DC’s Challengers of the Unknown

Consider this scenario: Since Kirby doesn’t have Joe Simon to serve as a direct line to Goodman, 19

“There were notes in the margin that described the character, again, nothing like the Ditko version. I think there was something about him being related to, or having some connection with a police official, which was how he’d find out about trouble going on.

“It was a long time ago, I can’t swear to that last item, but I can swear to the fact that it wasn’t similar to the Ditko version.

I remember thinking, ‘This isn’t at all like Ditko’s’.”

A circa 2000 remembrance by Steve Ditko of what Kirby’s original Spiderman looked like, and Joe Simon’s logo (sans hyphen), created in the 1950s at Mainline.

Lee is his go-between. So does Jack just show up one day unannounced, plop a bunch of presentation boards on Stan’s desk, and expect him to take them into the publisher on the spot? More likely, Kirby broaches the idea of doing pitches with Lee first, to see if his conduit to Goodman is even willing to do it, before he spends time preparing them.

In such an instance, Lee will likely take part in a preliminary conversation with Kirby, to determine what would appeal to Martin.

If Kirby has already been hinting to Lee about restarting super-heroes, and one day Goodman tells Stan that DC’s Justice League is selling and he wants to try that genre again, it all could’ve come together serendipitously. And in such a scenario, every quote I’ve read from both Lee and Kirby would fit, when viewed from each man’s own perspective.

So if Kirby creates all these presentations as he says, whatever becomes of them?

At least one such presentation is known to have existed. As you’ll see later in more detail, production manager Sol Brodsky keeps a large stack of unused pages on a shelf in his office, including many Kirby pages. One of them is key here; it is Jack’s presentation for his “Silver Spider”-based Spiderman concept (no hyphen), which is discovered by Marvel’s future editor-in-chief in 1969:

March 2011: Jim Shooter recounts seeing Kirby’s Spiderman presentation while trying to get inking work at Marvel in 1969. http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/my-short-lived-inking-career.html/

Art © Steve Ditko.

So Kirby created presentation art for at least one early Marvel character, though it could’ve been discussed with Lee first—but since it’s completely different from the published hero, it was done before any synopsis for Ditko on Amazing Fantasy #15 (Spider-Man’s debut issue, which is originally lettered without any hyphens in the character’s name) is written. Can similar examples be hiding in plain sight?

Throughout their careers, Kirby and Simon would recycle any unused art they could, and work it into paying jobs: A 1940s Captain America page ended up in USA Comics #1 for the Defender character; in the 1950s they repurposed an unsold “Inky” newspaper strip into a romance story; and some of Jack’s unused Starman Zero strips ended up in a Fighting American tale, for example. As a Depressionera kid, frugality is ingrained in Kirby. Despite being one of the fastest artists in comics, every existing drawing he can rework or repurpose, means one more page he doesn’t have to create.

Page counts of original material in the first dozen issues of Fantastic Four vary. It starts with 25 pages for #1–2, 24 pages for #3–4, down to 23 for #5, back up to 24 for #6–10, etc. In several of those issues, one page is a pin-up. The practice starts with the second issue, which is produced before the first issue goes on sale—there isn’t yet any reason to believe the characters would be break-out stars deserving of a pin-up. So why feature one so early in the run?

I’m speculating that those early FF pin-ups are Kirby’s original presentations for the characters—that Kirby or Lee (or both) think, “Hey, we’ve got these unused pages sitting around,” which may or may not’ve been paid for already, “and we’re under a really tight budget and deadline. Let’s toss ’em in and save having to draw and dialogue an extra page...”.

Again, this is speculation, but look at the order in which they appear. The Thing is the first pin-up, in issue #2, which, if drawn

“Kirby Spiderman pages: I saw, and held in my hand, exactly one such page. It was a page of design drawings. I remember that his version of Spiderman had a ‘Web-Gun’ and wore trunks, I think, like Captain America’s. He was far bigger and bulkier than Ditko’s version. There were no similarities to Ditko’s Spider-Man costume. I think he had boots with flaps.

Jim Shooter:

Pin-ups from Fantastic Four #2, 3, and 4; were these Kirby’s original concept drawings for the characters, drawn before Stan’s synopsis for #1 [next page, top] was written? How about the ones on the next page, from FF #8 and #9?

20

“So I went downstairs, and he said, ‘I want you to see this.’

He said, ‘I named the female super-hero after you, her name is Sue,’ Sue Storm he was talking about, it was the Fantastic Four... I said it looked great. There were three characters on the board, three of the four. And I asked about who they are, and he told me who each one was. And I said, ‘It looks great, they look great’.”

Lee’s synopsis for FF #1.

with the rest of the issue, is done in July. FF #1 doesn’t go on sale until August, so there is no way of knowing at this point he’ll be anything more than another Fin Fang Foomy-monster in popularity.

Yet Lee’s blurb says, “Watch for our next Fantastic Four Pin-Up in our next great issue!”. He knows at this point another pin-up will be drawn—or that it already exists.

That next pin-up is of the Human Torch in issue #3, shown only in civvies and his “flame-on” form (altered

by Brodsky to resemble the more human silhouette that debuts in issue #3, rather than having billowing flames all over his body like in the first two issues). If Kirby drew this during or after drawing FF #3, he’d have shown Johnny in his dandy new costume that debuts this issue, not a sweater—and he’d have drawn him in his new more human flaming shape. So this pin-up must’ve been drawn before FF #3.

In issue #4, we get a Mr. Fantastic pin-up, with the character in his new uniform. If Brodsky has to alter the Torch pin-up, he (or Kirby for that matter) can just as easily change Reed’s suit and tie to his new costume, simplistically drawn as it’s depicted.

October 25, 2010: Susan Kirby’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

Jack’s daughter’s deposition does fit here. Those three characters on Jack’s drawing board could’ve been the three presentation pieces that ran as the first three FF pin-ups. She says Jack named the female hero after her, but she doesn’t say Sue is one of the three drawings on Kirby’s drawing board at this point.

If the pin-ups are specifically planned ahead of time, after the Thing in #2, Torch in #3, and Reed in #4, naturally Sue would be the pin-up feature in #5. But there is no pin-up in #5, even though there are only 23 original pages in the issue, as opposed to at least 24 pages in all other issues from #3–10.

So, where’s the Sue presentation/pin-up? After no pin-ups in issue #5–7, we get a detailed “Human Torch Facts Page” instead in issue #8. This would work well as a presentation to sell Goodman on the idea prior to FF #1, so may’ve already existed when it gets used as a pin-up. Lee’s text on it states that in the next issue,

“I was in [my father’s] office a lot, because he had a vast library of books, because he was into everything. And I used to go down there and read, so I used to read his books and stuff, and one day I was upstairs, and mom told me to go downstairs because Dad was creating some new super-heroes.

Susan Kirby:

21

another pin-up will explain “How The Human Torch Flies,” so he already knows it is coming (or already exists) when dialoguing #8’s pin-up.

Lo and behold, it does appear in #9, with Johnny wearing a nebulous outfit that looks more like street clothes than a uniform.

Why would Kirby have already been drawing the #9 pin-up at the time #8’s is in production? It’s another obvious choice to have come from Kirby’s original presentation, already sitting on a shelf unused, rather than being a new pin-up drawn

by Kirby just for the issue.

We finally get a Sue pin-up in issue #10, with the Fantastic-Car and a detailed background, but stylistically it doesn’t seem to match the more primitive look of the others.

Why’d she get left out until now? My theory: In Stan’s synopsis for #1, Sue is conceived as being permanently, completely invisible, and she has to wear a mask in order to be seen; only her clothes are visible, but she never is. A drawing of a floating dress, with no one in it, is a bit pointless to help sell the idea to Goodman; a verbal description is enough, to go along with the loose drawings that become the first three pin-ups. So Kirby may simply not have done a presentation for Sue, which would explain why his daughter only sees three characters on his drawing board—and the pin-up that finally appears in #10 is actually created for the issue, when they realize they haven’t featured Sue yet.

If these pin-ups are Kirby’s presentation art to sell Lee and Goodman on his designs, they were drawn before any synopsis

by Stan is written. So whether Lee dreamed up the FF all on his lonesome as he has claimed, or they talked it out together, or Kirby brought in presentations first as he claims, if my pin-up speculation is correct, the FF synopsis is historically irrelevant in determining who does what in creating the FF. It does nothing to reconcile whether Lee and Kirby hash out the initial idea together, or Stan gives the

idea to Jack, and Jack then does his visual designs for it.

It’s also possible other early pin-ups are from Kirby’s presentation art. For instance: Why on Earth do we get a Sub-Mariner pinup in issue #11 (which features the Impossible Man), when we haven’t seen the character since issue #9? Can this piece [right] be Jack’s reused presentation art for bringing him back in FF #4?

Or even more interestingly, could this be one of Kirby’s original presentations that he claims he submitted prior to FF #1, to get Goodman to bring back super-heroes like Captain America? Read the captions on this pin-up: Sounds like Kirby’s verbiage to me.

Now, back to the chronology!

Summer 1961

Kirby draws Tales to Astonish #27. “The Man in the Ant Hill” features the first appearance of Henry Pym, who will soon be developed into insect-sized super-hero Ant-Man, but since Stan Lee’s signature isn’t on this story (and Larry Lieber has claimed credit for the name “Hank Pym,” which forgoes Stan Lee’s penchant for alliterative names), Stan likely isn’t involved beyond plotting and editing.

“When Stan saw that the strips had potential, he started writing them, and he was working with Jack. Then, I think he was doing so much that he found it was better—and also, when you’re working with a guy like Jack—Jack was very creative, and wanted to put a lot of things into it. Jack always welcomed doing it, I’d imagine, to some extent.”

Larry Lieber:

1999: Larry Lieber interviewed by Roy Thomas, from Alter Ego #2

That tendency of Kirby’s to add things is the foundation for Lee using what will become known as the “Marvel Method” of creating a comic book: [1975] “...I stumbled onto [the Marvel Method]. I’d be writing all the stories, and I’d be working on a Fantastic Four and the artist who’s doing Dr. Strange would come and say, ‘Stan, I’ve finished my script . I need another’. But I’ve got the typewriter going for F.F. and I couldn’t stop. And I couldn’t let him sit around doing nothing. So I’d dream up a plot for him, tell him to draw it any way he wanted, and then I’d put in the dialogue later. It was a measure of expediency, so I wouldn’t be the bottleneck. Then I found out it worked better.

“The artists are great storytellers themselves. They know which sequence to enlarge upon, which to cut short

Ad from Incredible Hulk #1, one of the earliest remaining pieces of FF art. Is it another loosely drawn concept piece?

22

because it’s dull. They’d put in characters I knew nothing about.”

August 10, 1975: Tallahassee Democrat (Tallahassee, FL) article, “Spider-Man is a Marvel, but Stan Lee is Marvel” by Peter Gorner, Chicago Tribune Service

That actual date Lee first uses the Marvel Method with Kirby is uncertain, but we will soon see some evidence that indicates it’s undeniably underway.

On August 8, Fantastic Four #1 goes on sale. Some mechanism is in place for gauging early sales results (likely Martin Goodman talking to the distributor), based on Stan’s August 29 letter to fan Jerry Bails (written just as Fantastic Four #3 is completed, and the plot for #4 is probably already discussed with Jack). Stan’s letter provides a wealth of information from a key early point at Marvel, including his intent to gear the comics toward an older audience: “Enjoyed reading ALTER-EGO and the COMICOLLECTOR, and got a kick out of your little critique of THE FANTASTIC FOUR, written by Roy Thomas.

“Just to correct a few small On the back of this page of original art for Fantastic Four #3, Stan Lee is clearly giving Kirby layout suggestions. The question is, why? Did he lack confidence that a inaccuracies though, I’m not a ‘for- 20-year veteran of comics like Jack could do it himself? Or was this done prior to the “Marvel Method”? More examples of FF #3 layouts are on the next page. mer’ editor of Timely—I’ve been that word to the title. Ditko is Lee’s favorite collaborator (after the editor and art director of that redoubtable institution for the late Joe Maneely), and Stan most enjoys the short introspective stopast 21 years, and hope to continue ad infinitum. Also, it is ries they do for titles like Tales to Astonish (he even uncharacteristidoubtful that Mr. Thomas is the ‘only person who bought a copy’ cally cover-credits the “Lee-Ditko” team on occasion). Lee even dubs (although he said that humorously, of course) because judging AAF as “The Magazine That Respects Your Intelligence” and picks by early sales reports, I think we have a winner on our hands! up an identical logo treatment to what the new FF book is already “As for the future of the F.F., we WILL have: using, and runs a house ad that links FF and AAF as more sophistiCOSTUMES cated reading. So Amazing Adult Fantasy A DIFFERENT TREATMENT (art-wise) OF THE TORCH #7 is an important first step forward in ADDITIONAL NEW CHARACTERS IN MONTHS TO COME the evolution of Marvel in appealing to a (Don’t be too surprised to meet Sub-Mariner again, or more mature audience—and this effort Captain America! Who knows??) isn’t really evident in Fantastic Four #1-2, AND A FEW MORE SURPRISES... so stay with us, pal! which aren’t really much different than “Would be interested in your opinion of another new mag the previous monster tales Lee has been due to go on sale soon—AMAZING ADULT FANTASY. We think cranking out for years. it’s a smash.

“Regarding some of the various comments concerning the F.F., we have purposely refrained from letting invisible girl When asked by a reader who the (oops, sorry!) Invisible Girl walk thru walls, and from giving FF artist is, Stan gives this reply while TOO MUCH super powers to our characters, as we feel that writing the FF #3 letter column in effects like those are chiefly of appeal to the YOUNGER readers, September: “Considering that our artist signs the name JACK and we are trying (perhaps vainly?) to reach a slightly older, KIRBY on everything he can get his greedy little fingers on, I more sophisticated group.” think we can safely claim that that’s his name!”

Stan Lee’s Aug. 29 letter to fan Jerry Bails (Stamped Sept. 1, 1961)

Fall 1961

Fantastic Four #3 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 (cover date Dec. 1961), which takes over the numbering from Amazing Adventures #1–6, goes on sale Aug. 31, 1961, just two days after this letter is written—and Bails writes Lee back that very day, after picking up a copy. It’s significant that Stan wants feedback on AAF from Bails, one of the few adult comics readers Stan likely knows. Here’s why: Tom Brevoort believes that, if Stan’s later oft-recounted tale of wife Joan advising him to finally “do the kind of stories you’d like to read” is true, this is the point where it kicks in. Amazing Adult Fantasy #7 (produced after Fantastic Four #2) is Stan’s first real attempt at reaching an “adult” audience—and not just by adding

The reader’s confusion is understandable, since every credit on FF #2–8 only says it’s by “Stan Lee and J. Kirby.”

Stan includes a notice stating they receive so much mail that it’s impossible to directly correspond with readers—but this same letter column includes a fake filler letter from one “S. Brodsky” of Brooklyn, NY (Sol Brodsky is Marvel’s production manager).

Jack Kirby draws Fantastic Four #4 in October. It revives Bill Everett’s Golden Age Timely character, the Sub-Mariner, and effectively ushers in the “Marvel Universe,” which interlocks the characters in a shared world. A blurb at the bottom of a page this issue 23

says “The Hulk Is Coming!”

And sure enough, in November, Jack draws The Incredible Hulk #1—the same month Stan wrote that blurb.

“I was there when [my father] was creating [the Incredible Hulk]. He called me over, and said, ‘I want you to see a new super-hero.’ He said, ‘This is the Incredible Hulk. What do you think of him?’ I said, ‘He is incredible’.”

Susan Kirby:

October 25, 2010: Susan Kirby’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

A wonderful (and depressing) example of how little original art is valued in the Marvel offices at this point, is that in 1964, Kirby’s cover art for Hulk #1 will be cut up, retouched, and reused for a house ad in Tales to Astonish #59. It’s also been speculated that, for 1963’s Fantastic Four Annual #1, the original art for the first 13 pages of FF #1 will be cut up and reused, to reprint their origin in the Annual.

Despite Lee’s in-print claims of being inundated with mail, more fake filler letters appear in Fantastic Four #4; one from “S. Goldberg” of Forest Hills, New York (Stan Goldberg is Marvel’s colorist), and another from “Jim Moony” of Hollywood, California (comics great Jim Mooney, Stan’s close friend) who ironically asks if Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are real or imaginary. Stan replies: “We’re real enough, Jimmy boy! But every time Kirby poses for a picture, the camera lens breaks! And whenever Lee starts to write about himself, he uses the word ‘I’ and ‘Me’ so much that the typewriter quits!”

Though it may’ve occurred earlier, by December Jack Kirby submits his presentation for Spiderman, the idea for which is loosely based on Jack Oleck and C.C. Beck’s earlier unused “Silver Spider” strip from Simon & Kirby’s defunct Mainline company. The concept is approved, and Kirby is assigned to draw the origin story.

Kirby will be drawing Fantastic Four #5 this month, but a new inker is about to come on board, albeit briefly:

Fantastic Four #4 letter column, written by Stan Lee

“Before Stan called me to ink Jack on Fantastic Four #5, I never knew The Fantastic Four existed. I lived up here in New York, in the Catskill Mountains, and I never went down to the city at that time... Everything was done by mail...

I didn’t know who or what the characters were when Stan called me up one day and said, ‘Joe, I’ve got a book here by Jack Kirby. I’d like you to ink it, if you could. I can’t find anybody to ink it.’ So I said, ‘Send it up.’ I didn’t even ask him what it was, so when it came in the mail, it was The Fantastic Four #5 and I was dumbfounded by the great art and the characters. The Thing, Reed Richards, Sue Storm, and Johnny were great.”

Joe Sinnott:

2006: Interview with Joe Sinnott by Tim Lasiuta, for Brush Strokes With Greatness

24

1962 pies of ,000 co hed is s 19,740 l l l b e u s p l ve 1,158 year. ar, Mar y produces single b a This ye ir in K . t s s ic e m b o l c a st five its son the fir his per (no pletes m n o pages-a c m y irb ider ee. point, K rsion of Sp L is n h a t t e By in to S f his v m o e h s t e g s pa . Ditko urn k them ) and t o to in “The Fly,” k hyphen it D o teve arity t signs S Ditko is s simil Lee as ed, and o Lee it t t c e s j n e io it. r g is in ment it w a h hic redr after w the job of given

Personal Best “We were talking... about Thor’s costume and he was doing it for the first time... I had made some comment about the big circles on the front of the character and, you know, again my father was... jokingly referring to visual impact, other than possible reality of what a true Viking might have worn.”

Journey into Mystery #101.

June 30, 2010: Neal Kirby’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

[1970] “I got a kick out of doing the Thor legend, which I researched.

I kind of did my version of it. They thought that Thor should have red hair and a beard, and that’s not my Thor. So I just went my own way.”

January 1962

As excitement over Marvel begins to spread among comics’ budding fan community, both Kirby and Lee take time out to correspond with letter writers: “Complete original comic magazine pages

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

At this point, in at least some instances, there are still full scripts being written, for artists to work from before laying pencil to paper. Lee may not’ve had time to write them, but his brother did.

are difficult to obtain since they all wind up at the engravers and storehouses outside the vicinity of the publishing house... The size of the individual panels should depend on the artist’s dramatic sense.

Actually, you will find that scenes with the most movement will demand larger space.”

Jan. 1962: Jack Kirby’s letter to fan Richard “Grass” Green, published in Alter Ego #15

“...Jack Kirby and I have many ideas which we think are somewhat original for future issues.”

Jan. 8, 1962: Stan Lee letter to fan Jerry Bails [shown at right]

Future bullpenner Roy Thomas has his first fan letter printed in Fantastic Four #5, saying: “FF #3 was excellent!

The feud angle made it all the better though, particularly the ending. The continuity in FF is all that could possibly be asked. I’ve just subscribed to FF for two years—I hope it runs much longer than that.”

When a reader asks whether the FF should keep their human identities secret, Stan’s reply shows his early intentions: “...remember us saying in an earlier issue that we wanted our stories to be different, and perhaps a bit more logical?” This letter column contains Stan’s first use of the phrase “face front!”.

Fantastic Four #5 letter column, written by Stan Lee

February 1962

Jack Kirby draws Tales to Astonish #35 and Journey into Mystery #83 (the debuts of Ant-Man and Thor, respectively), and Steve Ditko draws Amazing Fantasy #15, having taken over the Spiderman strip from Kirby.

“My father was always very interested, he loved mythology, he loved studying religion and history, just knew all about it, his bookshelves were just loaded with that kind of stuff... we would have long discussions about it.

“I remember kind of standing by his drawing board... he had... either Thor or one of the other characters that had big horns coming out of the helmet, and I said a real Viking wouldn’t have big horns coming out of his helmet... my father kind of laughed and made some statement that, well, ‘this isn’t... Viking reality, it is a visual impact,’ so he gave me a little art lesson there.

Neal Kirby:

25

in to control weather, sessed the ability –89), Kirby Although Thor pos into Mystery #83 ey urn (Jo y ues ckl iss qui seven initial fide god. That e with this bona didn’t do much els rn to the book in #101. retu changed after his

Looking closely at the original art, you can see vestiges of Kirby’s handwriting under the final lettering in the balloons from Strange Tales #108 (with Robert Bernstein dialoguing), and Journey into Mystery #88 and Tales to Astonish #40 (both with Larry Lieber dialogue)— which begs the question: Did Jack simply copy Bernstein’s and Lieber’s pre-written script onto the artwork (and if so, why?), or did Kirby have a hand in writing the dialogue for these stories?

“Stan would give me a plot, usually typed.

Just a paragraph or so. ‘Thor does this and that,’ and then he’d say, ‘Now, go home and write me a script .’ ...I never worked in what later became known as ‘the Marvel style’.”

story as I do. If I’m really short on time he even writes the stories sometimes.”

Larry Lieber:

March 29, 1966: The Daily Californian Weekly Magazine #16 article “A Fantastic Five Years of Marvel Age of Comics” by Tom Collins

March 1962

January 28–29, 2008: Larry Lieber interviewed by Danny Fingeroth

Kirby draws Fantastic Four #7 this month, while Stan Lee is juggling his responsibilities, including finishing up the blurb page from Amazing Fantasy #15: “We hate to throw in the towel, but we find that it is simply impossible to produce a magazine like AMAZING each and every month, containing five highly original and carefully plotted stories, without the quality eventually beginning to suffer.

Rather than risk losing your confidence, we have decided to change AMAZING in such a way that it will STILL present the finest in fantasy—but in a different way!

“As you can see, we are introducing one of the most unusual new fantasy characters of all time—The SPIDERMAN, who will appear every month in AMAZING. Perhaps, if your letters request it, we will make his stories even longer, or have TWO Spiderman stories per issue.”

“These were all scripts in advance... Jack I always had to send a full script to.

“Let me put it this way: I wouldn’t swear to it, but I have no recollection of ever writing a story that had already been penciled. A full script is the only way I know how to write.”

1999: Larry Lieber interviewed by Roy Thomas, from Alter Ego #2

Of course, the existence of a full script

by Lieber doesn’t mean Kirby and Lee don’t first have a creative conference, before Stan gives Larry a plot.

Jack Kirby seemingly draws and dialogues Fantastic Four #6, based on the overwhelming evidence in Mike Breen’s article in The Jack Kirby Collector #61. To add a bit of further evidence, check out Kirby’s margin notes on Sgt. Fury #13, page 22 (written two years after FF #6). Jack clearly writes “GO! GO! GO!”, in an amazing coincidence Amazing Fantasy #15 blurb page written by Stan Lee; lack of hyphens is in (?) to FF #6’s distinctive three-panel zoom-in original version with the Sub-Mariner shouting, “And now Here’s one of the earliest examples of Fantastic Four #6 above, and Sgt. Fury #13, left. the word is... Go! Go! GO!!”

Stan’s struggle to keep coming up with plots.

Kirby has a long history of writing his own scripts, and re-writHe’s clearly saying it is expedient to only have to come up with one, ing others, dating back to the 1940s: “DC editors were buying or at most two, Spider-Man plots per issue, rather than five plots for scripts from their regular stable of writers for the two, and short fantasy stories. Also, this shows, at the time of its writing at Simon and Kirby least, the plan is to continue running Spider-Man; Stan’s oft-repeatwere making gliders ed story of “It was the last issue anyway, so we just decided to throw out of the scripts it in” doesn’t hold water. and writing their Later in life, Steve Ditko [right] shared his memories of the own. More than once, origin of Spider-Man at Marvel. a DC editor would [2003] “For me, the [Spiderdeliver a script to Man] saga began when Stan the team and then called me into his office and told see its pages driftme I would be inking Jack Kirby’s ing out the window pencils on a new Marvel hero, as he left.”

[Spider-Man]... Stan never told me who came up with the idea for [Spider-Man] or for the story Kirby was penciling. Stan did tell me [he] was a teenager who had a magic ring that transformed him

1971: From text compiled and annotated by Steve Sherman and Mark Evanier, for Kirby Unleashed

[1966] “Jack frequently has as many ideas for a 26

into an adult hero... I told Stan it sounded like Joe Simon’s character, The Fly, that Kirby had some hand in, for Archie Comics [in 1959].

“Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don’t know what was said in that call. Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing [Spider-Man].

I would be penciling the story panel breakdowns from Stan’s synopsis and doing the inking.

“Kirby’s five penciled [Spider-Man] story/art pages were rejected. Out went the magic ring, adult [hero] and whatever legend ideas that story would have contained.

“Now we can speculate: What if I never said anything about the Simon Fly, and Kirby had completed penciling that magic ringteenager-into-an-adult-SM-legend story? ...There would be lots of nots: Not my web-designed costume, not a full mask, web-shooters, no spider-senses, no spider-like action, poses, fighting style, and page breakdowns, etc.

“There is not even a credible resemblance [to Joe Simon’s never-realized Silver Spider], not any valid point of comparison, between the non-Marvel Fly, unused [Spider-Man] pages, and the published Marvel [Spider-Man]. “...there can be no clear solo ‘creator’ claim... that [Stan] alone with his ‘idea’, regardless of whoever the artist—Kirby, Ditko, etc.—

Ditko’s original version of Spider-Man’s first cover on Amazing Fantasy #15, and Kirby’s revision at right, assigned by Stan to make the issue more appealing on newsstands.

that the ‘idea’, by itself, alone, could ‘create’ the exact same [character].

“Compare Marvel’s [Spider-Man] involving two known persons—Stan and me—in one creation… with the creator/ creation of Mr. A, The Mocker, Static, etc., where [I] did it all...

“Doesn’t the prefix ‘co-’—meaning together, as in cooperation, joint, as in co-owner—settle the issue? Marvel’s [Spider-Man] is a co-creation of Lee and Ditko, two persons.

Mr. A, The Mocker, etc., are creations of one creator, one person.”

2003: Essay 13 by Steve Ditko, “Speculation”, from “A Mini-History”

[1985] “...I couldn’t handle [Spider-Man]. I was handling everything else. I was handling the entire line. Spider-Man was given to Ditko, who did a wonderful job on it. Ditko developed SpiderMan. Ditko’s style sold Spider-Man. Ditko’s stories, which were wonderful, developed Spider-Man. Ditko did the Spider-Man that’s popular with everybody today.”

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview, conducted by James Van Hise

This month, Kirby draws his first Human Torch solo story for Strange Tales. However, though the first one to appear in print is in issue #101, based on the job numbers, it looks like the first story Kirby worked on was “Prisoner of the 5th Dimension!” from #103. It’s not dialogued by Stan Lee, but instead by his brother Larry Lieber, resulting in major inconsistencies between this strip and the Fantastic Four comic. On some of these Torch stories, Kirby’s handwriting can be seen in the word balloons, indicating either he was penciling in his own dialogue, or that of Larry Lieber, directly off his full script.

Also in March, the letter column of Fantastic Four #6 (with an on-sale date of June 12) states it’s being typeset on March 14, 1962, so that dates its production to three months prior to the on-sale date.

In a letter to Jerry Bails, Stan Lee references Fantastic Four #7, which Kirby has already delivered the pencil art for: “The next FF yarn in the works is called ‘PRISONERS OF KURRGO, THE SCOURGE OF PLANET X?’ which should win a prize as the longest, if not the best title! Can’t tell you what it’s about because I haven’t finished writing it yet. Some fun—still writing the script, and the mag was due to go to engraver a week ago.”

March 27, 1962: Stan Lee letter to fan Jerry Bails In May 2008, an anonymous donor gave the Library of Congress the complete original artwork to Amazing Fantasy #15. Although corrected later, throughout the issue, the character’s name was originally unhyphenated, just like Kirby’s original Silver Spiderbased version purported to be. The missing hyphen was standard in most early promos about the character as well.

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This is very telling. The book is running late, and Stan

from a partial synopsis for the first 13 pages which is known to exist; Lee sends it to fan Jerry Bails in late 1963, and it appears in his fanzine Capa Alpha #2. But the Puppet Master ending is an almost exact copy of a 1951 Black Magic #4 story Kirby drew titled “Voodoo on Tenth Avenue.” So Kirby is heavily involved in at least the plotting of #8’s final chapter, if not the entire book.

TURNiNG POiNT? I’m going to stick my neck out again with some speculation: That after Fantastic Four #8, Lee and Kirby permanently make the switch to “Marvel Method.” FF #6 and #7 show indications that Lee was testing methods other than what was used on FF #1—plus there are no other later in-depth synopses known to exist, and this one for #8 is only a partial one. If the rest of it existed, Lee would’ve sent the whole thing to Bails, and he would’ve run it all in his fanzine sooner or later. So I’m proposing that Stan never finished #8’s synopsis, realizing Kirby didn’t need such extensive guides to crank out a story Lee could dialogue— and that this new method of story production would soon spill over to other artists as Lee got busier with his editorial duties.

One of those duties is assembling the letter column for FF #7, where Stan starts to spread his wings as head of a burgeoning new line of comics: “We thought of a great way to get revenge on anyone who might write us a too-critical letter!

We’ll spell his name wrong when we print it!

Oh, the power we editors have!”

Fantastic Four #7 letter column, written by Stan Lee

May 1962

In one of the weirdest coincidences, or greatest ironies, ever, a letter in Fantastic Four #8 says, “Please don’t play up the ‘black magic’ theme very often.” Stan replies: “As for the black magic ‘theme’ as you call it, we’ll try not to overdo it.”

Strange Tales #103 shows the Human Torch maintaining his non-Leelike secret identity. This, not #101, may’ve been Jack’s first Torch story drawn.

Fantastic Four #8 letter column, written by Stan Lee

As documented above, the story in FF #8 features an ending almost identical to one Kirby did for Black Magic #4. Running a letter that mentions “black magic” in the same issue makes me wonder if Stan knows what source material inspired #8’s ending—or if Jack is the one picking letters to run in this issue.

hasn’t finished dialoguing it, but the pencil art is in by now. Yet Stan has no idea what it is about, which leads me to believe Kirby has plotted it without Stan’s involvement. Either way, it’s definite that the duo is using some form of the “Marvel Method” at this point.

One reason it would be running so late: FF #7 is when the mag goes from bi-monthly to monthly publication. So the change from their old production schedule means making up a month on the schedule to get it to press on time. Thus, it makes sense Stan might turn Jack loose as the deadlines tighten, and let Kirby plot issues around this period by himself.

This lends more credence to the idea that Kirby writes the dialogue on FF #6. Jack is an accomplished pro who’s done countless books before. So Stan can feel confident turning it over to him if he is running late and needs help on it.

April 1962

Kirby draws Fantastic Four #8 this month, working

The ending for Simon & Kirby’s 1951 Black Magic #4 [above], and [next page] the nearly identical climax of Fantastic Four #8.

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important the team effort is at this hectic time: “Stan Lee missed the mistake! Jack Kirby missed it! Dick Ayers, our inker, missed it! The letterer, proof-reader, and various kibitzers around the office all missed it too!”

Stan also mentions there’ll be a pin-up page of Sue Storm in the next issue, so Kirby has likely drawn it by this time.

In contradiction to later statements that the Hulk was always intended to be gray, and only changes to green because the gray doesn’t print well in Incredible Hulk #1, Stan writes: “We goofed with the color in the first issue.

The Hulk was supposed to be green, and will be from now on.”

Incredible Hulk #4 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Since the Frankenstein monster is the inspiration for the Hulk, and he’s been depicted in movie posters as green as far back as the 1930s—and Aurora Plastics Corporation’s first monster model of Universal Studio’s “Frankenstein” was released in 1961 and became an immediate success—it’s logical to believe a colorist or engraver’s mistake makes him gray. But colorist Stan Goldberg recalls things differently:

Rejected Incredible Hulk #4 page; you can see the gap where Kirby tore it in half before trashing it.

Kirby draws Incredible Hulk #4 this month. When Jack brings his pages into the office, Stan rejects several of them.

In a fit of anger, Kirby tears them in half and tosses them in the trash on his way out. Larry Lieber rescues the unused pages 11–13 of this Hulk story from the garbage. This is the earliest known major disagreement between Kirby and Lee. The fact that Jack is bringing in pages and Stan rejects the story, implies that Kirby was plotting this (admittedly weak) storyline without Stan’s prior involvement, and Stan rejects it after seeing it for the first time.

June 1962

In response to a mistake a reader discovers in FF #7, Stan effectively passes the buck, but also plays up how

Partial synopsis

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for Fantastic Fo

ur #8, as it ap

peared, retyped

, in Jerry Bails’

1963 fanzine

Capa Alpha #2

.

© Aurora Plastics • Frankenstein TM & © Universal Studios

Fantastic Four #9 letter column, written by Stan Lee

“[Stan] just called me up and told me he was going to have this character, Iron Man, and he said ‘Tony Stark,’ and the way he wound up where he was over in I guess it would be considered Vietnam. And he’d pitch this synopsis over the phone. We didn’t actually sit down and work out the characters... I knew what the costume looked like because I got the cover in the mail.”

Don Heck:

June 9, 1990: Don Heck interviewed by Will Murray

As Stan puts together the letter column for FF #10 this month, he changes the salutation for addressing letters, from “The Editor” to “Lee and Kirby.” This issue’s tale features Stan and Jack as characters in the story.

Also, in Stan’s opening greeting, he puts Jack’s name before his for the first time: “Look—enough of that ‘Dear Editor’ jazz from now on! Jack Kirby and Stan Lee (that’s us!)

Fantastic Four #10 features Lee and Kirby guest-starring in their own magazine, and interacting with both Dr. Doom, and Reed Richards. read every letter personally, and we like to feel that we know you and that you know us!

“I’m almost sure I came up with the idea of Stan So we changed the salutations in the following letters to show Goldberg: green. The Jolly Green Giant was very popuyou how much friendlier they sound our way!” lar in advertising... the first issue [Hulk] was But in the second letter, it reverts to just “Dear Stan,” as a writin gray and I think that was Stan’s suggestion. I er takes them to task for giving Johnny Storm a secret identity in his told him it’s not going to work. He said, ‘Give it a shot’...” solo Strange Tales series (beginning with #101), which Kirby drew.

Jan. 20, 2012: Stan Goldberg on The Hulk, interviewed by Alex Rueben for Comic Book Resources Stan’s reply: “We did our best to straighten the whole thing out Amazing Fantasy #15, with Spider-Man’s debut, is published satisfactorily (we hope) in Strange Tales #106...”. this month. But Kirby isn’t bemoaning his lack of involvement Fantastic Four #10 letter column, written by Stan Lee beyond its cover. He is putting all his creative energies into drawing There are no credits listed in Strange Tales #101–102, and Fantastic Four #10, where Lee and Kirby have cameos as themselves #103–105 lists “Plot: Stan Lee • Script: Larry Lieber • Art: Jack for the first time.

Kirby.” Stan is never one to omit his own credit, so the blatant

July 1962

Kirby draws a sketch of the Thing for fan Jerry Bails for his fanzine Alter Ego. It’s autographed by both Lee and Kirby on July 22 and mailed to him.

This month, Jack Kirby designs Iron Man for his debut in Tales of Suspense #39. The cover of ToS #39 is seemingly derived from Kirby’s original concept drawing for the character, before the strip is assigned to Don Heck to illustrate using the Marvel Method. Heck remembers:

inconsistency probably isn’t his doing. This means either Larry Lieber and/or Jack Kirby plotted and dialogued those first two Strange Tales episodes—and frankly, the lame explanation that appears in #106, which is plotted 30

Jack’s original panel for Journey into Mystery #88, before Lee had it redrawn, by leaving a note here for Kirby to alter it: “Jack: Change position of legs.”

[1972] “I told [Martin Goodman] to think of the worst subject he could and we would sell it with realism. He picked war.”

November 20, 1972: The News Journal (Wilmington, DE) article “King of the Comic Books,” by Jim Panyard, Newark Bureau

John Severin, however, has a different take. Severin got his first comics job in 1947, working for Simon and Kirby at Crestwood Publications. After his stellar art for EC Comics’ war books ended with that company’s collapse, Severin worked in the mid-1950s Atlas Comics bullpen with the likes of Carl Burgos and Bill Everett, until the Atlas Implosion took its toll. Before returning to Marvel in the 1960s, he had a memorable encounter with Kirby, over a project that sounds an awful lot like Sgt. Fury.

“Though Jack and I rarely saw one another whilst ‘S.H.I.E.L.D.’ was being produced [in mid-1965], I do recall a bit earlier when... Jack wanted to know if I’d be interested in syndication.

He said we could be partners on a script idea he had. The story would be set in Europe during WWII; the hero would be a tough, cigar-smoking Sergeant with a squad of oddball G.I.s—sort of an adult Boy Commandos.

“I... told him I wasn’t really interested in newspaper strips... and Jack left, heading towards Marvel and Stan Lee.” John Severin:

Aug. 1999: John Severin interview by Jim Amash for Jack Kirby Collector #25

[1970] “I was asked to do Sgt. Fury. I did it from my own experiences.

I had London look like London. I felt that it should be done that way; not glamorized, but real. In other words, I was out to show London during the Blitz, and I showed London during the Blitz. When I showed a German gun, I showed a German gun. I felt that kind of strip should be done real. “...I wrote that... It was a composite of lots of things, lots of my own experiences, which I’m going to say nothing about. It was terrible.”

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

To a letter criticizing the way Kirby draws feet, Lee replies: “Stan is answering this one...”.

The cover for Iron Man’s first appearance, apparently created using Kirby’s original sketch of the character.

by Stan and dialogued by Lieber, feels like it is awkwardly shoehorned in at the last minute.

Finally, the FF #10 letter column ends with this from Stan: “Spiderman, who last appeared in Amazing Fantasy #15, has made no new appearances for a few months, because we waited to see what the fans thought of him. Well, your reaction has been terrific, and so we are launching a new series of Spiderman tales which will go on sale the beginning of December.”

The “next issue” blurb ends with: “See you next month!—Stan & Jack.”

Fantastic Four #12 letter column, written by Stan Lee

This, and other previous responses, implies that some of the letter column answers up to this point are written by Jack, as a true co-editor of the book. (But as Jack is the least likely to be in the office writing responses, I’m attributing them to Stan unless there’s compelling evidence to the contrary.)

There are clear signs that Marvel comics are catching on in the

August 1962

A pair of letter writers, possibly also confused by the “Stan Lee & J. Kirby” credit line, asks: “Do you mind telling us who wrote the story for FF #8?” Stan replies: “...you must be the only two readers left who don’t know that Stan Lee writes the stories and Jack Kirby draws them.”

Fantastic Four #11 letter column, written by Stan Lee

September 1962

Steve Ditko fills in on The Incredible Hulk #6 (Ditko once related to Will Murray that Lee knew it was being cancelled, and didn’t want to “waste” Kirby on a failed title), while Jack Kirby draws Sgt. Fury #1. The genesis of this new strip bears some scrutiny. Lee says it came about on a dare to his publisher:

Was this uncharacteristic two-page spread from Sgt. Fury #1 Kirby’s original concept art to sell the idea to a skeptical Goodman?

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world of early comics fandom. On September 12, under direction from Stan (or Martin Goodman), Stan’s secretary Judy Walsh writes a personal letter, telling fan Mike Tuohey, “Re: your idea about our giving out examples of our original copies of art work and scripts, we’d like very much to do just that, but can’t just yet; maybe later.”

“Perhaps since we are unable to send you the samples you wish, your sorrow might be appeased a little if this letter is signed by the same hands that, after all, wrote the stories you admire and drew the action you enjoyed so much.”

September 12, 1962 letter from Judy Walsh to fan Mike Tuohey

October 25, 1962 Marvel office letter to fan Mike Tuohey

The letter is autographed by both Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

Late in the month, Stan’s secretary writes to Mike Tuohey once again, giving him fanzine fodder: “Stan Lee is introducing a new character in Tales of Suspense— Iron Man! This goes on sale December 10.

“There is a new war mag in the making—Sergeant Fury and his Howling Commandos, on sale Lee shows inker Dick Ayers how to redraw Kirby’s legs sticking out of the trash can, March 5th. on this panel from Fantastic Four #14.

“There is now an entire mag devoted to the Amazing Spiderman, on sale December 10.

“And lastly, starting with ish #91 of Journey into Mystery, Joe Sinnott will be drawing Thor.”

Romance comics weren’t immune to Lee’s watchful eye , as he tells Al Har tley to revise this lov ely lassie, due to Kirb y having drawn her too old-looking to be a teenager in Lov e Romances #103: “Sometimes, as in this panel, Kirby makes gals too oldlooking--she sho uld be about 17.”

October 1962

Probably to ward off other requests like Mike Tuohey’s, Lee includes this mention in the FF #13 letter column: “We aren’t able to give out original scripts or art at this time, but hope to sometime in the future.

“Once again we want to thank the hundreds of loyal fans whose interesting letters can’t be printed due to lack of space.

Please rest assured that either Stan, or Jack, or both read each and every one personally...”

October 29, 1962 letter from Judy Walsh to fan Mike Tuohey; lack of hyphens is in original version

December 1962

Stan takes his family to his wife’s parents’ home near Newcastle in England for the holidays. Former model Joan makes the front page of the local paper, in an article that calls Stan “an American publisher and newspaperman”; it appears she isn’t keen on telling people her husband creates comic books for a living.

Fantastic Four #13 letter column, written by Stan Lee

The letter column salutations on Hulk #6 change from “Dear Editor” to “Dear Stan and Jack”, but issue #6 is drawn by Ditko, something that would surely be known at the time the letter column is being assembled. This could indicate that Kirby planned to return to Hulk after taking one issue off, had the series not been cancelled to make way for Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos on Marvel’s limited schedule—or that letters are being read and answered by Kirby as well.

Someone at Marvel (it’s not signed by secretary Judy Walsh, but instead just says “F.F.”) responds to fan Mike Tuohey’s new fan letter with a personal note: “We are really sorry that we don’t have any original artwork or scripts to send you, but we have uses for all of this work, and are unable to send it out—much as we’d like to. If there is ever a time when the artwork or scripts are available, you will certainly be among the first to receive a sample.

Dec. 24, 1962: The Evening Chronicle, Newcastle upon Tyne

Meanwhile, back stateside, Steve Ditko draws Strange Tales #110, where Dr. Strange debuts. As Lee will describe it: [1963] “...’twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered we’d give it a chance...”.

Jan. 9, 1963: Stan Lee letter to fan Jerry Bails

Unlike Lee and Goodman at Marvel, over at DC Comics, editor Julie Schwartz routinely gave away original artwork from his comics, to fans who wrote the most interesting fan letters, or offered suggestions for their comics.

Strange Tales #110 splash page by Steve Ditko.

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1963 ut by 2 outp of ing 196 k a p e o r c ies ecord-b 30,000 r ,5 a 2 2 r e s Aft sell r.

Marvel mics this yea Kirby, his new its co e c w vin s to allo an con m s d w o e o o G t N utput t o Martin Independen y l h t utor eir mon is opens up h t e s distrib a h e T to incr ust 8. branch Marvel ad of j Lee to s, inste r Kirby and e -Men, l X it t e h 11 t o nities f per-groups-- lly bring u t r o p op ina su ce to f h new . a chan out wit merica s--and A r e in g a n apt Ave back C

All-Out Assault you the first three pages, tell you who the character was you were fighting, and give you the last couple of pages so you’d know how it ended. And in between you’d put about 15 pages of stuff... And at the time, I thought, ‘Oh my God! This’ll never work!’ But then I’d sit down and start to figure different things that these types of characters could do. Then when I went back to working from a script years and years later, sometimes I felt like I was a little closed in. I got used to the synopsis.

“Stan started giving me synopses about 1962. It could have been 1963. I don’t think he started it with me as early as with some of the others up there. I’m sure Jack was doing stuff from synopsis a lot earlier than that.”

January 1963

1982: Don Heck interviewed by Richard Howell for Comics Feature #21

In another sign of how much Stan Lee is relying on his top artists to help steer the line, he extends his comments about Kirby being a de facto co-editor to Steve Ditko as well: “We regret that no letters can be answered personally, but we will print as Steve Ditko in the early 1960 s. many as possible each issue and you may rest assured that either Stan Lee or Steve Ditko, or both, carefully read each and every letter received here at the Web!”

Stan continues to correspond with Jerry Bails, one of the prominent names in fandom: “You’re right about Al Hartley’s art work not being right for Thor. Actually, Al specializes in teen-age strips (he does the Patsy Walker mag for us) and simply pinch-hit Jrny. Into Mystery because it was an emergency—Jack was busy with an FF ish that was late, Joe Sinnott was tied up with another job, etc.”

Amazing Spider-Man #3 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Ditko recounted the usual working process in one of his own essays years later:

[2015] “Normally when I took in a penciled [Spider-Man] or [Dr. Strange] job, Stan and I would go over every panel; he’d note anything he didn’t understand or something needed, wanted, more detail, etc.

I’d mark any needed, wanted, changes, correction, addition, to fix on the side of the penciled page I was to ink. Plus, I gave Stan typewriting paper showing my rough idea of what was being said in the story broken down into panels. Stan never wanted me to write any actual dialogue or names. That goes back to our 5-page [story] days.

“Writing, editing, dialogue, sound effects, captions, were all Stan’s division of labor at Marvel.”

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

At least one of those artists initially struggles with working via the Marvel Method, instead of from a full script: “I’d been so used to working from scripts, and then Stan said, ‘I’m going to give you a synopsis.’ Well, Jack Kirby was used to something like that because he was also a writer... he did some terrific stuff with all of these different characters, like back when he was doing Fighting American and all the rest of his early stuff, so it was easy for him. For me it was suddenly that someone says, ‘You’re going to do it!’ I said, ‘I’ll try it, but, I mean, it’s your gamble, not mine. I’m going to get paid for this.’ Then we started to work out the system, and then after a while Stan Lee used to, like, give Don Heck:

33

The Human Torch and Thing have a volatile relationship in FF Annual #1, but Lee and Kirby’s isn’t showing any sign of strain at this point.

The “emergency” Lee refers to is actually more involved than he lets on. While Kirby skips drawing the Thor feature in Journey into Mystery #90–92, he spends this time course-correcting the Human Torch feature in Strange Tales #108 and 109, and giving a creative push to the new Iron Man strip in Tales of Suspense #40 and 41—which would easily account for an issue of Fantastic Four running late.

“As for Jack starting strips and then turning ’em over to less talented artists—well, it’s not quite that simple. The poor guy only has two hands, and can only draw with one! I like to have him start as many strips as possible, to get them off on the right foot—but he cannot physically keep ’em all up—in fact, I sometimes wonder how he does as much as he does do.

At present he will concentrate on FF and our new war mag, Sgt. Fury—as well as pinch-hitting for other features if and when needed. AND he does almost all of our covers, of course.”

Bails’ letter to Stan must’ve taken him to task for some of the inferior quality stories that are appearing at the time.

“It isn’t a question of can’t our artists do better (or can’t I write better)—it’s more a question of how well can we do in the brief time alloted to us? Some day, in some far distant

Nirvana, perhaps we will have a chance to produce a strip without a frantic deadline hanging over us... and then, brother, you’ll see script and artwork that’ll put EVERYBODY to shame!”

Lee gives Bails an advance notice of upcoming releases and what goes on behind-thescenes: “We have a new character in the works for Strange Tales (just a 5-page filler named Dr. Strange).

Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. Sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him—’twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered we’d give it a chance, although again, we had to rush the first one too much.

“FF is easily our favorite book here at the Marvel bullpen. It’s my baby and I love it. People have asked for original scripts—actually, we don’t even HAVE any. I write the story plot—go over it with Jack—he draws it up based on our hasty conferences—then, with his drawings in front of me, I write the captions and dialogue, usually right on the original artwork! It seems to work out well, although it’s not a system I’d advise anyone else to try.

“ANT-MAN seemed to need a shot in the arm, so we added the WASP as A.M’s partner.

Hope she’ll help. THOR goes his merry way with a seemingly devoted circle of fans, and I’m inclined to think we’ll be playing up life in ASGARD more and more as the issues go by. As for SPIDER-MAN, I wouldn’t be surprised if he turns into a real winner, judging by the mail we’re receiving— tremendous enthusiasm from the readers.

“Mail—that’s my biggest problem. I take it too damn seriously—read each and every letter— wish I could answer ’em all—we get over a hundred a day—sometimes over 500!!! (after a long week-end). Can’t keep up with it. Fans keep asking for MORE letters pages—wish we didn’t have ANY!... [We] base many decisions on comments from our mailbag.”

Jan. 9, 1963: Stan Lee letter to fan Jerry Bails

At the time Stan wrote this letter, Kirby is likely drawing Gunsmoke Western #77, Sgt. Fury #3, Fantastic Four #17, and numerous covers.

“Once a week, Jack Kirby would come up to the offices, as would Frank Giacoia. We loved Jack’s work very much, and he was drawing most of the books. The three of us would go out to lunch. When we crossed the street, I’d say, ‘Okay, Stan Goldberg:

Unlike Marvel, DC Comics worked from full scripts, and Jerry Bails regularly corresponded with editor Julie Schwartz there.

Above are pages of Gardner Fox’s script for Justice League of America #16 from late 1962, given away to a fan by Schwartz.

At top is a Sept. 1960 note from Fox to Bails, saying Schwartz was gifting Bails all the original art from The Brave & The Bold #30.

34

used for an X-Men t-shirt Marvel is selling in X-Men #12 (published May 1965), but not appearing as a pin-up until X-Men #74 in 1972— a long time to sit on the shelf if my guess is correct! More on this later.

Also this month, Fantastic Four #14 is published, containing the first use of the company name “Marvel Comics Group” on the cover, a decision made at the end of 1962.

March 1963

While writing the copy for the cover of Fantastic Four #17, Stan first uses the phrase “Marvel Age of Comics” in print.

A delightful new addition begins working at Marvel Comics as Stan Lee’s “gal Friday,” while Jack Kirby starts drawing X-Men #1.

“I went up and talked to this man, Stan Lee. And the interview was in this teeny little cubbyhole of an office... And the whole Magazine Management company was in one big floor [of 625 Madison Avenue] with partitions set up. And Marvel Comics was the teeniest little office on the floor. There was Stan and his desk, then another small desk.”

Flo Steinberg:

November 1984: Flo Steinberg interviewed by Jim Salicrup and Dwight Jon Zimmerman, Comics Interview #17

“Jack would come in and sit around and talk, then he’d go into Stan’s office and they’d go over plots, make sound effect noises, run around, work things out. Then he’d go back home to work some more.”

January 1998: Flo Steinberg interviewed by Michael Kraiger, The Jack Kirby Collector #18

A reader complimenting the new box on the covers with character heads and the name “Marvel Comics Group” gets this response: “Steve Ditko dreamed up the idea, and we’re sure glad he did.”

Lee sent Kirby a photostat of this page from FF Annual #1, so he’d have it for future reference for the team’s HQ.

Fantastic Four #18 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Frank. You stand on this side of Jack and I’ll stand on the other.

If a car hits us, they won’t get Jack!’

“Jack would sit there at lunch and tell us all these great ideas about what he was going to do next. It was like the ideas were bursting from every pore of his body. It was very fascinating because he was a fountain of ideas.”

Lee gives readers some insight into the origin of the Spider-Man strip: “As for Amazing Adult Fantasy, we are glad of this opportunity to explain its demise to all those who have asked about it. Judging by your mail, those who read the mag loved it, but judging by our sales, not enough readers bought AAF! So just for kicks, we decided to create a new super character (Spiderman) and throw away all the rules, making him as original and as different as we could. We planned to present him in the final issue of Amazing Adult Fantasy, just to satisfy ourselves. But, the rest is history! His surprise appearance jolted readers everywhere, and we were deluged with letters demanding that he be given his own magazine. “...for the time being we would like to limit [Spiderman] to a few occasional guest appearances with our other heroes... Stan and Steve have so many wonderful, unusual ideas for future Spiderman tales, that we don’t want to do anything to interfere with them.”

2002: Stan Goldberg interviewed by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #18

February 1963

This month, Jack Kirby draws Avengers #1, while Stan explains to readers why the Hulk was cancelled: “We’ve always believed in leveling with our fans. So, for those of you who’ve asked what happened to the Hulk, here’s the scoop: We decided to discontinue the mag because we felt we were spreading ourselves too thin! ... We don’t yet know where, when, or how, but be patient—mankind won’t be Hulkless much longer!”

Fantastic Four #17 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Amazing Spider-Man #4 letter column, written by Stan Lee; lack of hyphens is in original version

It’s time to go out on a speculation limb again here, and propose that the early X-Men pin-ups may be taken from Kirby’s presentation art for the strip, sitting on Sol Brodsky’s shelf, unused. We only ever see Cyclops (#6), Beast (#8), and Marvel Girl (#9) pinups—and there’s one great group shot known to exist,

April 1963

This is a pivotal month, as Jack Kirby permanently takes on the main Thor strip, and draws the first installment of “Tales of Asgard” back-ups in Journey into Mystery #97, a project Lee feels is tailormade for Kirby: 35

Another Marvel regular recounted his own plotting experiences with Lee: “Stan [Lee] would drive me home and we’d plot our stories in the car... I’d say to Stan, ‘How’s this? Millie [the Model] loses her job.’

He’d say, ‘Great! Give me 25 pages.’ And that took him off the hook. It gave me a lot of work to do, but in the long run it made me a better storyteller.

“One time I was in Stan’s office and told him, ‘I haven’t got another plot.’ Stan got out of his chair, walked over to me, looked me in the face, and said very seriously, ‘I don’t ever want to hear you say you can’t think of another plot.’ Then he walked back and sat in his chair. He didn’t think he needed to tell me anything more. After that, I could think of a plot in two seconds.”

STAN GOLDBERG:

2002: Stan Goldberg interviewed by Jim Amash for Alter Ego #18

Back at the flagship Fantastic Four title, Stan’s response in issue #19’s letter column revealed a tidbit about Kirby’s art: “...Wanna share an ‘inside joke’ with us? You may notice that Jack often draws crowd scenes. Well, we at Marvel refer to the people in his crowds as ‘Kirby’s Kast of Kharacters,’ and if you look closely, you’ll see the same faces appearing over and over again.

(Same goes for the Western covers he draws.)”

And Lee lets slip his lack of affinity for a certain Master of the Mystic Arts: “A number of you have asked for more of Dr. Strange, in Strange Tales. So, we’ll have another of his off-beat

From 1958–1964, Israel Waldman was churning out unauthorized reprints of other company’s properties under the “Super Comics” name. These 1963 examples show what Marvel was fighting against for newsstand space.

[1998] “...90% of the ‘Tales of Asgard’ stories were Jack’s plots, and they were great! He knew more about Norse mythology than I ever did (or at least he enjoyed making it up!). I was busy enough just putting in the copy after he drew it.”

May 1998: “Stan the Man and Roy the Boy: A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas,” Comic Book Artist #2

Kirby also draws Strange Tales #114, featuring the Acrobat posing as Captain America, in a try-out to gauge fan reaction to bringing Cap back permanently. Stan consistently gives himself a plotting credit on all the non-Kirby Strange Tales issues, from #106–113, working with a variety of dialoguers. Even issue #116’s non-Kirby story is credited as “Based upon an idea by Tommy and Jimmy Goodkind, Hewlett Harbor, New York”, kids of a friend in Lee’s Hewlett Harbor neighborhood (a character in Stan’s earlier Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs newspaper strip was based on Tommy). But when Kirby returns with #114 to reintroduce Captain America, there’s no plot credit, just “Written by: Stan Lee, Drawn by: Jack Kirby.”

Does the omission, after Stan making sure he is credited for all those previous issues’ plots, indicate that Kirby is the uncredited plotter (or co-plotter) of #114? For that matter, knowing that Lee was always diligent about including his own credit line, does the lack of a specific “Plotted by” credit in a comic mean the plot was either only partially by Stan, or had no involvement by him at all?

To further explore this: There’s also no plot credit from Strange Tales #115-on, after Dick Ayers resumes as artist. Barry Pearl recounts what Ayers has to say in 2009 about plotting with Stan: “Dick told us how Stan called him one day [in early 1965] and said, ‘I can’t think of a story for Sgt. Fury #23. We won’t have an issue unless you think of something!’ A worried Dick could not sleep that night and kept [wife] Lindy awake too. They talked about story after story until, in the middle of the night, Lindy came up with the idea of the Howlers saving a nun and her young charges. Dick said, ‘Stan will never go for that, he wants nothing about religion... but I’ll ask him.’ When Dick did, Stan said, ‘What a great idea, I’ll use it.’ So they put together a terrific story.

When Dick’s finished pages were shown to him, he saw the credits where he was only listed as artist. He went to Stan’s office and asked if he could also be listed as co-plotter. Stan yelled, ‘Since when did you develop an ego? Get out of here!’”

Barry Pearl:

[above and next page, top] Why the hesitation to revive Cap outright, instead of as the Acrobat in Strange Tales #114? Was he deemed potentially too old-fashioned for the 1963, Civil Rights-era sensibility?

December 2009: Barry Pearl, “The Yancy Street Gang visits Dick & Lindy Ayers,” Alter Ego #90

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Murdock’s blind man’s cane convert into an allpurpose billy club, and that the wire was a later development.

After Ant-Man flounders following a string of lackluster non-Kirby issues, Lee brings Jack back in April to revamp the character, and crows about it here: “Stan and Jack think they’ve found a way to make ANT-MAN a zillion times more exciting!

First, they teamed him with The Wasp—but now... he becomes the most daringly different super-hero of all—GIANT-MAN!” In this same issue, a letter writer asks why readers should address letters to “Dear Stan and Jack” instead of “Dear Jack and Stan.” Stan’s response is good-natured snark that could’ve struck a nerve with Kirby: “Because it’s Stan’s typewriter and so HE makes the rules—you troublemaker!”

tales in Strange Tales #114... We almost hope you DON’T like him, because BOY—are those stories hard to write!!!”

Letters page for Fantastic Four #19 written by Stan Lee

In this same letter column, a reader raves about Sgt. Fury #1, and this is the response Stan gives: JACK: “Sgt. Fury? Is that one of ours?”

STAN: “You lunkhead, you just drew it a week ago!”

JACK: “Gosh, who can remember that far back?”

To the comics reader, it’s a humorous jab between two colleagues. But this is an early example, whether intentional or not on Stan’s part, of how Kirby might perceive that he’s viewed as a bumbling artist who’s subservient to Stan—a perception that could contribute to a rocky relationship in the future.

This month sees Lee first use the expression “’Nuff Said”, as he prepares the “Special Announcements Section” that appears in Fantastic Four #19 and other issues released the same month.

Fantastic Four #20 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Once again, Lee doesn’t seem nearly as invested in Ditko’s solo creation, as he does in one he was more directly involved with the genesis of: “We almost hoped not too many readers would notice Dr. Strange so that we could turn out the stories without too much effort. But, the reaction has been far more favorable than we expected, so it looks as though the old master of black magic will be a regular feature, which means another headache for us!

If you haven’t seen him yet, treat yourself to a copy of the latest Strange Tales—but only after you’ve bought Spiderman of course!” The hyphen in “Spider-Man” is still being missed this late

May 1963

Around this time, Martin Goodman co-opts the name of the original 1940s super-hero Daredevil, and Jack draws a concept sketch for an updated version of that Lev Gleason character, which will get used as the cover art for Marvel’s Daredevil #1. Since the original Daredevil was mute, that may play into Lee wanting him to have the handicap of being blind—although in real life, the daughter of the new strip’s artist Bill Everett is legally blind, so it may’ve evolved from that.

Daredevil #1 won’t be published until February 1964, after Everett misses deadlines for its original Summer 1963 planned release. The first issue ends up requiring a hodgepodge effort by various artists to get it finished, costing Marvel several thousand extra dollars to produce. Lee later recalled the character’s genesis: [2003] “Kirby had a lot of input into all the looks of all these things. If I wasn’t satisfied with something and Kirby was around, I would have said, ‘Hey Jack, what do you think of this?

How would you do it?’ “...I don’t think I was thinking of the boomerang [the original Daredevil used]. I needed some reason for him to swing from building to building. It well might have been Kirby’s idea. It could have been Everett’s. I don’t remember. Maybe Kirby decided he should have the club, but I remember it was me who felt the club should have a wire that came out of it. See, I wanted him to be able to go from building to building. He couldn’t fly, and he couldn’t stick to the wall like SpiderMan. And I thought if he had this little wire that he could throw, I could combine it with the billy club.”

April 2003: Stan Lee interviewed by Will Murray for Wiz-Bang

Everett has confirmed it was Jack Kirby’s idea to make Matt

Unused Kirby pencil cover for Fantastic Four #20, likely rejected due to its lack of action.

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Marvel titles in Fantastic Four’s letter column, and use the two extra pages in Spider-Man for “...longer stories, features, or what-have you! We’ll do nothing till we hear from you, so let us know. But, as a special favor, we hope you’ll tell us you don’t mind.”

in the game?

Stan explains his rationale for the lack of artist attribution on covers here as well: “The reason we don’t usually have artists sign the covers, is that they often represent the work of many men. One might do the rough layout—another the penciling—then, we might decide to change a figure or two and Jack’s mimeographed cover for the fanzine Aurora #4, edited by a young Wein. The October 1963 cover date means that Kirby drew this around still another artist Len the time he was drawing Captain America’s official return in Avengers #4. might make the correction—ditto for the inking. However, when one man does the whole thing as Steve did on the covers you mentioned, he usually does affix his signature!”

Amazing Spider-Man #7 letter column, written by Stan Lee

As the month ends, the Lees host a lavish dinner party on June 29, which makes the local society column. Martin Goodman is a guest, as are the parents of neighborhood kids Tommy and Jimmy Goodkind, who were credited with the plot idea for Strange Tales #116. Stan is referred to only as a “Writer-Art Director”—instead of mentioning his comics work, the column plugs one of Lee’s fumetti joke books.

July 4, 1963: South Shore Record, “Roslyn Reports” by Roslyn Davis, shown below

July 1963

You can’t win ’em all with fans, as Stan learns: “We recently received a letter from Jerry Bails, one of fandom’s most articulate critics. Jerry has high praise for the Avengers, but considers the X-Men a dud, and suggests we discontinue it!”

Fantastic Four #22 letter column, written by Stan Lee

But Lee continues to develop his rapport with them, even at a co-worker’s expense: “So the word ‘amazing’ gives us class, eh, Phil? Smiley and Stevie Ditko will be sorry to hear that!

We’ll expect him to wear shoes from now on when he visits the office!”

And in response to a reader who says Marvel plays up radiation too much in its stories, Stan replies: “We hope you fans don’t make a big thing of this anti-radiation jazz, Kevin! Heck, how would we write comic mag stories without it?”

Amazing Spider-Man #6 letter column, written by Stan Lee; lack of hyphens is in original version

[2015] “Normally, with Stan, when I brought in an inked [Spider-Man] issue, we would go over the pages for a cover idea. The cover was always done last and in this way: I’d take a blank sheet of paper, we’d look over the inked pages, and Stan would suggest some... action for the cover. I’d rough out the idea— making changes or adjustments or he’d suggest a different idea—and I would rough out, adjust, etc. When the idea was what he liked, wanted, I’d pencil and ink the cover. ”

Amazing Spider-Man #8 letter column, written by Stan Lee

As you’ll see later, Kirby will repeatedly mention, in interviews throughout the 1980s and 1990s, how radiation was his inspiration on strips like the Fantastic Four and X-Men.

August 1963

“Wanna hear how names are thought of? We needed a name for the villain of X-Men #3, and Stan and Jack were kicking a few around when a boy delivering sandwiches walked in and jokingly said, ‘He looks like a big blob! Call ’im The Blob!’ We laughed at that for a minute, and then Stan and Jack looked at each other and said, ‘Why not?’. So there you have it!”

X-Men #3 would’ve been produced in June, but be shipping in November, the same time this mention would see print in Fantastic Four #23. Lee goes on to reveal more about how frantic things are at Marvel at this stage: “Can we level with you? We can’t tell you what the next FF will be because we haven’t decided on a plot yet. So we won’t say ‘Don’t miss the greatest, most thrilling, etc. etc.’ All we’ll say is—we’ve got to dream up a story in the next couple of days, and have it drawn pronto if we wanna make our deadline!”

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

June 1963

There’s more thinly-veiled commentary

by Lee, showing his ambivalence toward Ditko’s mystic character: “So far, our readers’ opinions on Dr. Strange are almost unanimously in favor of the bewhiskered bewitcher! So, it looks as if we’re gonna be stuck with him for a while...”.

Fantastic Four #21 letter column, written by Stan Lee

“...there has been a lot of talk about Doctor Strange. Those that don’t like him really HATE the poor guy—and those who like him are wild about him! Nobody’s neutral!”

Ditko recalls one instance that probably reflects Lee’s scripting apathy about the Master of the Mystic Arts:

[2015] “I used to mark on a calendar the day I took a penciled job in and when I got it back to ink. I [once] had to wait 54 days to get back a 10-page [Dr. Strange] story.”

Fantastic Four #23 letter column, written by Stan Lee

And what did we actually get in Fantastic Four #24? A direct swipe of the plot from Kirby’s Challengers of the Unknown #1 from 1958. So whether Lee or Kirby is plotting the FF at this point, it makes no difference—it’s an old Kirby plot the issue is based on.

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko

Stan also includes a plea to readers, saying he wants to discontinue letters pages, because they take so long to put together. His labor-saving idea is to have one “clearing house” of mail for all the 38

Sometime prior to now, Kirby draws the six-page back-up that will appear in Amazing Spider-Man #8 (January 1964 cover date), “Spider-Man Tackles the Torch.” The story seems to have been initially intended for Strange Tales (which has published the solo adventures of the Human Torch by Kirby since #101 in 1962), or Fantastic Four Annual #1, because it clearly focuses on the Fantastic Four’s youngest member. Steve Ditko ends up inking Kirby’s pencils, no doubt to keep Spidey somewhat consistent with Ditko’s solo work.

A reader writes to complain about Ditko’s art: “He would be a great artist if he could only learn to draw. All of his characters have square heads and bodies. The only decent looking one is the costumed Spider-Man. Even though Ditko’s work isn’t the best I’ve seen, I still think your mag is the greatest.” Stan replies: “Y’know something? There may not be another issue of Spiderman! We won’t have time to produce it—we’ll be too busy burning all these letter pages before Steve can read them!

Anyway, what’s wrong with a square head and body? You should see ours!”

While this makes for an entertaining letter column, perhaps it isn’t wise to run it in the first place, as it could easily be taken as insulting by Ditko, who by Stan’s own admission reads the letters from fans. When another reader compliments Ditko’s art, Stan’s flippant reply is, “Are we glad to see your letter! Steve was just about to send away for a mail-order course in drawing!”

Amazing Spider-Man #9 letter column, written by Stan Lee

And in another indicator of the hectic pace of production at Marvel, Lee’s next-issue blurb states: “Smiling Stevey Ditko doesn’t want us to tell you what the next Spiderman will be about! He thinks you’ll get more of a kick out of it if you’re surprised. (If you ask us, he and Stan just haven’t written it yet!)”

September 1963

It’s another big month, as Jack draws Avengers #4, featuring the real return of Captain America. This is just a month after Cap’s tryout in Strange Tales #114 goes on sale, but it does time out such that initial sales figures and letters would’ve been received, before Kirby puts pencil to paper on Cap’s revival.

Much like on Amazing Fantasy #15, Lee has Kirby rework the cover of Spider-Man #10 after rejecting Ditko’s original version.

There’s still more indications that it’s an uphill battle staying ahead of deadlines on Spider-Man, as Stan states, “While we haven’t worked out all the details of the plot yet, our next issue will shed further light on the strange secret of Betty Brant’s past.”

Amazing Spider-Man #10 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Stan composes this response to a letter writer: “And in the words of jolly Jackie Kirby, ‘Hey Ma, looka me! I’m a household word!’”

Letters page for Fantastic Four #24 written by Stan Lee

In hindsight, this may’ve been annoying to Kirby, based on his 1989 Comics Journal #134 interview. When asked if he had contact with publisher Martin Goodman, he says: [1989] “I’d see the publisher occasionally...I’d say ‘Hello, Mr. Big.’ Mr Big’d come out of his office and pat me on the head. ‘How are you, Jackie?’ ...I was being condescended to... I hate to be condescended to... There are times when you work with people you feel like punching in the mouth.”

Jack remembered being called “Jackie” that many years later. From the 1960s-on, Kirby always called Stan “Stanley,” most noticeably in What If? #11 in 1978, which could be seen as a similar way of condescending to Stan—a sort of passive-aggressive attempt to remind Lee that he started as an office boy working under Simon and Kirby.

October 1963

A reader writes: “How Stan thinks of a different plot for every story is beyond me.” Stan replies: “You say that Stan makes up these plots? Good heavens! He almost had us convinced the stories were true!”

Amazing Spider-Man #11 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby’s Spider-Man #8 story appears to have been intended to run in Strange Tales or FF Annual #1 originally.

While this is a nice ego-stroke for Stan, he doesn’t take the opportunity to credit the artists for their help with plotting. Based on the “next issue” blurb in Spider-Man #11, Ditko certainly deserved a mention. He must’ve already turned in at least the splash page for #12 when Stan wrote it, with only vague statements based 39

date exists saying, “Jerry, so where’s our trophy? The FF”). This is the issue that features an ending nearly identical to a 1954 Kirby Black Magic story.

“Jerry told me he had dropped Stan a line to ask for a copy of a Marvel script to go with ones he’d received from Julie Schwartz for Justice League and the like... In 1961 and 1962, Stan was working hard to keep a number of artists busy all at the same time, so it would make perfect sense that he might make up the first part of a story off the top of his head and send it off to Jack, figuring that either (a) he’d send the rest later, (b) he’d relate the last part of the story to Jack in person or over the phone by the time he needed it, or (c) Jack would devise an ending himself.

“If (b), then that old Black Magic ending might’ve been suggested by Jack when they talked. It’s even possible, though unlikely, that Stan was familiar with the Black Magic story.”

Roy Thomas:

September 2018: Roy Thomas e-mail to John Morrow

Kirby’s splash page pencils for Journey into Mystery #101. Even prior to Jack leaving notes in the margins for Stan to understand the story he drew, Lee’s dialogue leans on picking up visual cues in Kirby’s art.

on the art he’s seen: “And now—what you’ve been waiting for!

A hint of next month’s Spiderman thriller! Wait’ll you see it!

Spiderman actually gets unmasked—his identity revealed to J. Jonah Jameson—Betty Brant—the police—everyone!”

Strange Tales’ sales must’ve been lagging without Kirby on board, because Lee brings him back for a Human Torch/Iceman team-up in #120, before handing it back off to Dick Ayers on art.

Again, there is no plotting credit listed on an issue Kirby works on.

November 1963

The first public indications of conflict between Lee and Ditko are seen, as Stan prepares this Spider-Man #12 letter column comment: “By the way, do you like Betty’s new hairdo? Hope so, because Stan had to argue with Steve for months before Mr. D. would make the change!

“By the time you read this, our newest mag, Daredevil, should be on sale. Putting that thing out was like a comedy of errors! We lost some pages of the script, we missed our first deadline, we couldn’t decide on his costume till the last minute, and we did the cover over a zillion times!”

The Spider-Man #12 “next issue” blurb is about as vague as possible, so Stan doesn’t know its plot at the time of writing it: “Next ish you’re gonna see the most rootin’-tootin’ swingin’ wing-dingin’est arch-foe you ever did see!”

Avengers #5 original art page, with Stan Lee’s notes to himself as he decides how to dialogue Kirby’s pages.

December 1963

Amazing Spider-Man #12 letter column, written by Stan Lee

About Avengers #6, Stan says: “Can’t tell you the plot because it’s loaded with surprises, but with Stan writing it, and Jack drawing it, we sort of suspect it’ll be worth watching for!”

Over the November 28 Thanksgiving holiday, Roy Thomas sees the partial plot synopsis for Fantastic Four #8 (typed circa April 1962) at Jerry Bails’ home. Stan Lee had recently sent it to him (probably on November 18, as a handwritten cover letter from that

Avengers #5 letter column, written by Stan Lee

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Kirby may’ve already been drawing Avengers #6 when Stan writes this, which would indicate Jack is handling the lion’s share of plotting. With Lee more and more out of the loop on what the artists are adding via the Marvel Method, a big change is coming, as presaged by this month’s announcement: “As soon as this letters page goes to press, Stan and Jack will begin work on possibly one of their most important collaborations—Fantastic Four #28 (on sale the beginning of April) which features the X-Men as guest stars!... So, till then we remain, telekinetically yours...

Stan and Jack!”

write about the notes that I put in, because I always erased them, once the script was done.”

November 2010: Hollywood Treasures television appearance by Stan Lee. https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=bgdkpQsSwAc

X-Men #5 letter column, written by Stan Lee

TURNiNG POiNT! By mid-December, that big change materializes as Jack Kirby starts drawing Fantastic Four #28. It’s the earliest known full story where Kirby begins leaving margin notes, for Lee to follow when dialoguing the pages. From December 1963–February 1964, Kirby leaves margin notes on all his other pencil pages, including Journey into Mystery #106, X-Men #7, and Avengers #6.

Prior to this, there are random scribbles on pages, but nothing definitive to help determine who is doing the plotting and pacing.

Years later, while viewing an original art page from FF #12, Stan Lee notices his own margin notes, and comments: [2010] “I wrote it... this is my writing, to remind me [what] to say... to let me know that that’s what I wanted to put in. It’s funny; historians always write about Jack’s notes. They never

The “Tales of Asgard” story in Journey into Mystery #103 exhibits Kirby’s margin notes, but I haven’t found any Kirby notes on the main Thor story prior to issue #106. Were earlier issues just erased really well?

One anomaly is Journey into Mystery #103, which has notes on the “Tales of Asgard” back-up story, but not on the main Thor story.

If Kirby is cranking it out three months prior to its February 1964 ship date, that would date drawing it in November, a month before FF #28—technically making it the first instance of his margin notes appearing. But as only a five-pager, Kirby could’ve easily done it in a weekend in December along with FF #28, and Stan rushed it through production if deadlines were pressing.

And pressing they are, as Lee indicates a key issue is about to get underway: “The scoop about our next Spiderman! We’re just starting to write and draw it now, so we can’t guarantee it’s great—but—the villain is called the Green Goblin...”

And still no hyphen on “Spider-Man.” But “can’t guarantee it’s great”? This may just be Lee being self-deprecating, but his curious decision to include the following letter may indicate a growing annoyance with a certain collaborator.

A reader writes: “The one thing wrong with your comic is Ditko’s art. He draws Spiderman and the super villains fine, but the way he draws people makes them look like they have some rare disease!”

Stan responds: “They have! It’s called ‘Ditko-itis’.”

Amazing Spider-Man #13 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Fantastic Four #28 clearly shows Kirby’s margin notes for Lee on its original art pages.

41

1964 00 27,709,0 tion sells a arvel expect M e , h r t a e h arly wit This y g a ne omics, in c w o s h it s f , o 5 6 s 19 ie . cop for years 00,000 e in 3 64 of 32,0 creas ed in 19 50% In b u p lish ). e r a ers e year by cov a singl 102 Kir ts the ost in conduc with (The m in We n w e ie L rv , fan ra inte der #6, ly 1964 rvel-e In ear own Ma e, Masquera n k t out s earlie fanzin in it ab or his othing s. ic m o Kirby f ly, there’s n C vel d or Mar but sa work f Kirby’s

The Build-Up cringe, practically cry—when the shelves got too crowded with artwork and scripts... we would just throw them out. I mean, the artwork was considered like, who needed it anymore? The artists didn’t ask for it back. It was Ditko contribu ted the cover like throwing out a script ... art for Len We mimeographe in’s d 1964 fanzin e Aurora #5.

We threw out tons of artwork.

There were all these things about all the Kirby art that people thought Marvel was holding onto, but we just used to toss it. And feel good there was a clean shelf to fill up again.”

At some point in 1964, Stan Lee sits down for an interview with fans, including inker Vince Colletta’s son. The reference to Captain America getting his own title could indicate this takes place prior to August, when Tales of Suspense #59 goes on sale (if Lee takes this question to mean a literal standalone title, vs. Cap’s shorter stores in ToS), but I’m dating it here since it likely wouldn’t have taken that long for this interview to see print.

2011: Flo Steinberg interview with Dewey Cassell

Q: Are you planning to give Captain America his own mag?

LEE: There is only one thing stopping us. Jack [Kirby] doesn’t have the time to draw it, and I don’t have the time to write it. But, sooner or later, whether it be a year from now, or ten years from now, we will find the time to do it!

It’s a funny thing with Jack’s artwork. You never know just how good Jack really is. If he gets a good inker, he looks good. If he gets a bad inker, he looks bad. But Jack Kirby’s penciling is so magnificent—no inker can really do it justice!

Q: Do you save any of your original manuscripts?

LEE: As a matter of fact, there really are no manuscripts to save! The way I do it now, I write the story in synopsis form, and then give it to the artist. He pencils the drawings, and I get it back again. Then, I write the words above the panels, and these are eventually lettered in. So, we work so fast that there almost aren’t any real manuscripts.

Q: What gives you ideas for stories?

LEE: Actually, there is very little inspiration involved. You just sit down and figure it out. Do I need a new villain? What haven’t I used before? What do the readers like?

Q: What happens to the original artwork after a comic is finished?

LEE: We send it to a warehouse, and then it just sits there.

Crusader #1 interview with Stan Lee, by David Castromuovo, Peter Ricciardi, and Frank Colletta (published Dec. 1964-Jan. 1965)

Flo Steinberg’s account of the disposition of original art pages at least partially confirms this last statement: FLO STEiNBERG:

“The books came out, and, in fact, sometimes—this makes people

Jack’s margin notes are all over Dr. Doom’s origin in Fantastic Four Annual #2.

42

In the first half of this year, Steve Ditko comments on the rushed look of Jack’s work, in light of how much Stan Lee is assigning him—and expresses his admiration for Kirby: “It stands

and Ditko, Stan says, “There’s no telling what our next ish of Spiderman will be... but you can be sure they’ll come up with something...”

to reason that Jack’s work tends to look hurried, because it is!

Anyone who is that buried under work will surely not take the extra time necessary to make it perfect. Jack’s a real genius.”

Amazing Spider-Man #16 letter column, written by Stan Lee

April 1964

1964: Steve Ditko, Rocket’s Blast And The Comic Collector #31, published June-July 1964

Referencing the Fantastic Four #29 collage by Kirby, Lee quips: “Jolly Jack was too lazy to draw a whole detailed moon landscape...”

January 1964

Jack Kirby draws Avengers #6, another early example where he begins leaving margin notes for Stan Lee to follow when dialoguing stories.

A letter writer praises Stan’s writing but gives lukewarm compliments to Kirby’s art, and the response (which apparently is by Kirby) is: “Some help you are! Now Stan will NEVER

Fantastic Four #31 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby is trying to stretch his artistic boundaries by incorporating collage into his work—and he can certainly draw a landscape

let me put my name first!”

Fantastic Four #28 letter column, written by Jack Kirby?

Plans are afoot for the summer, but it’s still a bit early to finalize them, as Stan alludes: “We are definitely going to publish a Spiderman annual!... We don’t know the exact content yet because we haven’t written it yet! In fact, we don’t know when we’ll get the time to write it.”

Amazing Spider-Man #14 letter column, written by Stan Lee

February 1964

About the new Special Announcements Section in each issue, Lee adds a little self-deprecating humor: “It’s the place where we can let our hair down and talk with you, straight from the shoulder. (Of course, Jack has more hair to let down than Stan does! Stan just kinda combs the fuzz!)”

Avengers #6 letter column, written by Stan Lee

In reference to X-Men #6, Stan says, “...we don’t know how Stan and Jack do it! Not only do they feature Magneto and his Evil Mutants, co-starring Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, but they’ve built the story around comicdom’s greatest roving guest star—the sensational Sub-Mariner!”

Amazing Spider-Man #15 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Spider-Man #16’s letter column has perhaps the earliest mention of acceptance from the college crowd, and the appearance of an article about Marvel in the Colgate University college newspaper.

Kirby also begins drawing Fantastic Four Annual #2 this month, which features his margin notes for Lee on both stories, one of which is the origin of Dr. Doom.

March 1964

“While this column is being written, Stan and Jack are still working on [Fantastic Four Annual #2], burning the midnight oil to make it the most talked-about mag they’ve ever created!”

Avengers #6, the first issue with Kirby’s visible margin notes for Lee.

Fantastic Four #30 letter column, written by Stan Lee

The two main stories are mentioned by title, though it says some of the other features are “still top secret”, likely meaning they haven’t been decided upon yet at the time of this writing.

But once again, in FF #30, Kirby is portrayed in a bumbling manner by Lee: Stan: “Hey, Jack—do we still publish Westerns?”

Jack: “You’re askin’ ME, Stan? I can’t even remember how many fingers to give the Thing!”

And in perhaps another sign of less interaction between Lee

more quickly than meticulously creating a collage of it. This could easily have set him off—just as he begins drawing the new Captain America series in Tales of Suspense #59.

The first decisive indicator of Ditko’s solo plotting on SpiderMan comes to light, as Lee admits “...next ish is gonna be real different! The whole plot was dreamed up by Sunny Steve and it was just nutty enough for Stan to okay it!”

Amazing Spider-Man #17 letter column, written by Stan Lee

43

Around this time, Ditko creates the visual for the swelled-headed villain The Leader in the Hulk strip for Tales to Astonish #62. It’s easy to imagine this as a subtle dig at Stan’s ego, and his tendency to call himself Marvel’s “leader” in Bullpen Bulletins and letter columns.

Meanwhile, as Lee composes the letter column for Sgt. Fury #11—a title Jack hasn’t been involved with beyond covers for four issues—Kirby is namedropped by Stan: “Hey Kirby—FF’s a week late!”

Sgt. Fury #11 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Is Kirby ever late, unless Stan has overloaded him with too much work? He prided himself on his massive page output, and could’ve taken this wrong.

This is rather ironic, considering around now, Unused pencils from Journey into Myster y #109. Unused pieces like this were kept in the Marvel offices to use for new inker Lee develops a “writer’s test,” using four Kirby pages tryouts. from Fantastic Four Annual #2 with the word balloons The splash page credits for that story in Spider-Man #18 don’t whited-out, and starts screening candidates to help him stay on reflect this, however, only saying: “Written by: Stan Lee, Author of deadline.

This “writer’s” test doesn’t involve any plotting, as these ‘The Fantastic Four’ • Illustrated by: Steve Ditko, Illustrator of test pages have Kirby’s margin notes on them, so the goal is to find ‘Dr. Strange’.” writers who can work Marvel Method.

In fairness, Avengers #8’s credits also just say “Written by Stan This month, the catchphrase “Make Mine Marvel” is first used Lee, Illustrated by Jack Kirby”, with no plotting credit­—although by Lee in preparing Fantastic Four #32’s letters page for the printer. inside, Lee states, “Now that you’ve managed to struggle thru Stan’s complicated plot in this issue, we’ll go easy on you...”.

Avengers #8 letter column, written by Stan Lee

May 1964

Friction between Lee and Ditko appears to be coming to a head. About Spider-Man #15, a reader, not knowing Marvel’s plots are usually derived by the writer and artist working together, offers: “...the plot was great, Stan! Keep up the good work...”.

Lee responds without any admission of plotting help by Ditko: “...do you hear sensitive Stevey muttering in the background?

Something like: ‘So what was the artwork— chicken liver??’”

Amazing Spider-Man #18 letter column, written by Stan Lee

In a plug for Spider-Man #18 (which Ditko solo-plotted), Stan writes this less-than-enthusiastic recommendation: “...in the past we’ve told you that one mag or another had the most action possible! THIS time we wanna tell you that you’ll find LESS action than usual in Spidey’s tale—but, there’ll be a lot of surprising plot twists and unexpected developments to make up for it!”

Avengers #9 Special Announcements section written by Stan Lee

This would seem to be the point where Ditko insisted on taking charge of the plotting, and a sharp change in focus is taking place—one Stan isn’t particularly happy about. Arguably, when he inserts these kinds of comments, they can be interpreted as a bit passive-aggressive, with some real-life reason behind them. Perhaps Stan even hopes the book will fail under Ditko’s plotting, but based on reader reactions in the letter column in #22, it is well received, and would ensure Ditko’s plotting would continue. ear to be Kirby’s margin

ter’s test,” with what app

A page from Lee’s “wri

44

notes.

[row 1] Pin-ups from July 1964 cover-date issues (all pin-ups would have been drawn and put into production roughly 2-3 months prior). The Don Heck “Pepper Potts” one from Tales of Suspense #55 is strange choice.

[row 2] November 1964 cover-date pin-ups. [row 3-4] December 1964 cover-date pin-ups. [row 5-6] January 1965 cover-date pin-ups (still produced in late 1964).

Thanks to Alan McKenzie and Brett Ewins at: http://marvelsilverage.blogspot.com/2018/10/marvel-masterwork-pin-ups.html

We know somewhere out there, a standalone Kirby concept piece for Spiderman (no hyphen) exists, which didn’t get printed because the published version of the character is much different. Since logic dictates Jack would’ve also produced presentation illos for other new characters—and none of those have surfaced—it’s not a huge leap to assume those get repurposed somewhere. Their most obvious use is as filler pages—and no year of Marvel’s 1960s output sees more pin-ups produced than 1964.

This is around the time where Kirby will be drawing the Captain America pin-up that appears in Avengers #10—if he actually draws it for that issue. But a few things about it don’t add up. First, there were no other pin-ups in Avengers prior to this one, nor was Kirby drawing the book at this point. So it was an afterthought, used at the last minute as story page counts were shifting from 22–20 pages, or a full-page ad got dropped unexpectedly. But more curiously, there’s a pencil notation on it to reduce it to 80% of size— which if drawn on the large-size art of this era’s stories, would be nowhere near the size it will print in the actual comic book. I don’t know the actual size of the original art, but if it’s on letter-size paper (used for, say, a quick sketch), an 80% reduction would hit the right reproduction size. So while possibly done on the spot by Jack, I’m speculating it was sitting unused on Sol Brodsky’s shelf, got sandwiched into Avengers #10, and may well be a concept drawing by Kirby—done either just before bringing Cap back in Avengers #4 or Strange Tales #114, or perhaps even earlier, if Kirby was attempting to get Marvel to try super-heroes prior to Fantastic Four #1.

The level of detail, quality, and consistency of the various pinups produced throughout 1964 is a real puzzler. If this is a concerted effort to commission planned insertions, it seems Lee would either have Kirby do them all (and indeed that majority are by him), or at least have other artists follow his lead for their design, and stick with the “A Marvel Masterworks Pin-Up” header for all of them.

I’m not saying all the pin-ups from that era are repurposed concept drawings, but some certainly point in that direction.

The fact that an unused Ditko Dr. Strange illo gets turned into a pin-up in 1967, long after Ditko has left the company, proves that any one of these could’ve pre-existed, and been repurposed.

I’ll leave it up to readers to decide which might fall under that umbrella.

45

[row 7] February 1965 cover-date pin-ups (produced at the end of 1964).

Out of the blue, a couple of March 1967 coverdate issues also toss in pin-ups, including the aforementioned Ditko Dr. Strange illo.

June 1964

about Marvel Comics by the science club at Bard College, at Annandale, New York on June 5! Our smilin’ script-wiz was flying when he came back! He said it was one of the greatest days he ever spent! The gang at Bard were bright, beaming, and barrels of fun—they tossed questions at him about every phase of comic magazines, and their interest, courtesy, and enthusiasm were as heartwarming as one of the Aunt May’s apple pies!”

Stan Lee writes the cover copy for Daredevil #5, praising his newest artist by proclaiming it “under the brilliant artistic craftsmanship of famous illustrator Wally Wood.” But he inadvertently slights Kirby in a Mighty Marvel Checklist: “We don’t know how Stan does it, but each issue of the FF seems to top the one before it!”

After several issues away, Jack is drawing Sgt. Fury #13, featuring a WWII team-up between Fury and Captain America. The credits read “Written and drawn by the titanic two: Stan Lee and Jack Kirby”, and with his WWII experience and association with both characters, I’d assume Kirby was at least partially (if not totally) responsible for the plot. But when Stan composes the letter column for the issue, it comes across as if all Kirby does is draw it: “Take Jolly Jack’s penciling, add Darlin’ Dick’s inking, let ’em both loose on one of Smilin’ Stan’s stories, and BOINNNG!” Lee is obviously aware of the need to keep up with the youth culture of the day. In response to a female letter writer complaining about Marvel Girl’s hair, Stan replies: “...jolly Jack promises he’ll try some new hairdos for our lovely lassie.”

Amazing Spider-Man #19 letter column, written by Stan Lee

July 1964

Lee acknowledges that the frenetic pace of production is taking its toll on quality at Marvel: “After we started drawing the Avengers-Spidey yarn you’ve just finished, we got the feeling that some of you might feel cheated, because it wasn’t the real Spider-Man whom the Avengers were battling! So, we dropped everything and changed the ending around until it came out the way it appears in the mag. At least the genuine Spidey DOES appear in the story now.”

Avengers #11 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Stan apparently has Don Heck plot Avengers #11, and then redraw the ending after he sees the pencils—because if Stan plotted it, wouldn’t he know ahead of time that it isn’t the real Spider-Man? In an apologetic message, Stan has an excuse for another story he isn’t proud of, this time in Tales to Astonish #63: “Can we confess something to you? We feel ‘The Wrecker’ was kind of a weak Giant-Man tale!

We had originally scheduled another villain—a much more colorful one—but at the last minute, we learned that a competitor had used a similar one, and so we decided to change everything!”

Tales to Astonish #63 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Three years later, another Wrecker would make the scene in Thor #148; with Jack’s involvement (his super-powerful crowbar must’ve been a Kirby idea), the character will make a more lasting impression.

Stan Lee writes: “Jolly Jack Kirby would probably love it if Sue (Storm) went around making everyone invisible! He could draw the strip with his eyes closed!”

Tales of Suspense #61 letter column, written by Stan Lee

This is more commentary, meant to be humorous, that could’ve sparked antagonism in Kirby—just as this could in Ditko: “Poor ol’ darling Ditko does about twenty pages of Spidey each month—plus ten pages of Dr. Strange—plus ten pages of the Hulk—and he still finds time to argue with Stan for a few hours each week!”

X-Men #8 letter column, written

by Stan Lee

And he makes a deliberate move to court the older college audience, when he asks readers: “Did we tell you about sunny Stan’s day at college? He was invited to speak

There’s a reason Sue Storm goes through so many hairstyles during Kirby’s tenure on the Fantastic Four. Lee is serious about keeping Marvel’s characters’ hairdos current, and sends this photostat [at right] of a page from Patsy Walker to Kirby as reference.

Amazing Spider-Man #20 letter column, written

by Stan Lee

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When a reader asks: “Why does Stan Lee always get top billing?” Stan replies, “Because Stan is so talented, lovable, clever, and witty! (And mainly because he’s the bullpen boss!)”. It’s a response that has the propensity to rankle both Kirby and Ditko.

Lee’s writer’s test must’ve paid off, as Lee announces: “...one of the old-time greats of comicdom, Don Rico, who used to work with Stan a zillion years ago in the Golden Age of Comics, has come back to the fold! ...Don will do the script for Dr. Strange.

We’re very anxious to get your reaction to it—and we predict you’ll flip over his far-out fast-paced style! And Stan himself couldn’t be prouder for his old buddy!”

Strange Tales #128 next-issue blurb written by Stan Lee

Stan always seems ready to move away from dialoguing “Dr. Strange,” but Rico is an unusual choice. It appears Lee doesn’t view Dr. Strange as a very important character in the larger picture at Marvel. He seems to dislike dialoguing the Dr. Strange strip, finding it difficult to do—and perhaps not enjoying working with Ditko on it?

There’s no indication of who plotted Strange Tales #129, though Stan gave himself an editing credit, and “Script by” Don Rico. After only one issue, Rico is gone, and Stan is listed again as “writer” on #130—a credit that Rico would take issue with later.

Ditko art contribute d to the 1964 York Comic Art Con New vention.

Ditko generously contributes art for the 1964 New York Comicon booklet. This first official convention, organized by fan Bernie Bubnis, takes place on July 27. Ditko personally shows up, to make his first—and as far as I know, only—convention appearance.

“Stan Lee was never an artist. Stan Lee, to my knowledge, was not even a writer when he began. He was a kind of editor and then discovered if you put some words together, you got a story out of it, you found a formula. It’s still working for him. It worked for him in the old days, and it’s working for him now.”

August 1964

DON RiCO:

Kirby draws Tales of Suspense #63, the first of a string of Captain America stories set in WWII, that almost verbatim rehashes Simon & Kirby stories from Captain America Comics of the 1940s.

The first couple have credits for “Stan Lee, writer” and “Jack Kirby, illustrator”, but these are identical plots to the 1940s stories, in which Stan had no involvement—yet by default, he’s getting credit for plotting, due to the omission of any mention of the source material. These stories may’ve been done in an attempt to secure the copyright on Captain American Comics #1–10, as you’ll see later.

Also on the plotting front, Stan proclaims: “Dr. Strange begins a new, different type of series next month! Just for a change, Stan asked sunny Steve to dream up a real far-out plot, and if you hadn’t guessed before, you’re about to learn that sterling Stevey Ditko has one of the most inventive, off-beat imaginations anywhere! ...The next one’s gonna be DIFFERENT!”

Late 1974-early 1975 (published May 1975): Jack Kirby and Don Rico interview in Mysticogryfil: Journal of Cosmic Wonder #2, with Barry Alfonso

Despite Stan acknowledging in Strange Tales #129 that Ditko would be plotting the next issue, there is no actual plotting credit in #130, just the usual “Written by Stan Lee” and “Illustrated by Steve Ditko.” Ditko would have to wait until #135–138 to receive a “Plotted by” and art credit, while Stan credited himself for both “Editing” and “Writing” in those issues.

Issue #139–140 are back to “Script by” and “Art by”, with no plot indicator, which, if Ditko is plotting as suspected, would’ve been seen as a betrayal after having previously gotten this credit.

But #141–144 again gives Ditko plot credit, and by #143, Stan has passed off the dialoguing to Roy Thomas. #145–146 has Stan as editor and Denny O’Neil on dialogue, but no indication of plot.

Strange Tales #129 letter column, written by Stan Lee

When a letter writer comments that Marvel is repeating old names from Atlas stories (including “Magneto” and “Thorr”), Lee responds: “You got us dead to rights, Mike! Sure, we DID use the name Magneto for a villain in one of our fantasy stories years ago. (Boy, you must have been reading our mags for centuries!)

But, why couldn’t there be ANOTHER Magneto in another yarn?

After all, you’re not the only Michael in town, are you?”

[2015] “When doing [Spider-Man, Dr. Strange], I always wrote down any ideas that came to me about the supporting characters, any possible, usable story idea… I was two issues ahead on both characters.

“A visiting fan noticed a big sheet of paper I had taped up. I had the main characters listed and a column for following issues. The sheet was for me to note any sub-plot ideas for [Spider-Man, Peter Parker], and the main supporting characters: J. Jonah, Aunt May, the school kids, etc.

“An example: Aunt May. What kind of problem, concern, would affect [Peter Parker and Spider-Man]? When would be the worst time for a real serious problem affecting her, [Peter Parker and Spider-Man]? His first day in college.

“So I slowly built up her heart problem to come to a climax on [Peter Parker’s] first day in college.

“I worked up, noted, other sub-plots, ideas, wherever I could. So there was a new villain every issue but a continuous storyline, problems, troubles, conflicts with the usual supporting characters or any additions.”

Tales of Suspense #62 letter column, written by Stan Lee

As the summer comes to a close, Stan harangues bullpenners to help record the Merry Marvel Marching Society record, “The Voices of Marvel.” With so many of them living outside Manhattan, getting them all in one place, without pay, would take some effort.

The following dialogue is written by Stan Lee. KIRBY: “Hey, who made you a disc jockey, Lee?”

LEE: “Well, Jolly Jack Kirby. Say a few words to the fans, Jackson.”

KIRBY: “Okay, a few words.”

LEE: “Look pal, I’ll take care of the humor around here.”

KIRBY: “You? You’ve been using the same gags over and over for years.”

LEE: “Well, you can’t accuse me of being fickle, can you? By the way, Jack, the readers have been complaining about Sue’s

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

47

hairdo again.”

KIRBY: “What am I supposed to do, be a hair-dresser?

Next time, I’ll draw her bald-headed.”

LEE: “Boy, I’m glad we caught you when you were in a good mood... Hey, what’s all that commotion out there, Sol?” SOL BRODSKY: “Why, it’s shy Steve Ditko. He heard you’re making a record, and he’s got mic fright.

Whoops, there he goes!”

LEE: “Out the window again? Y’know, I’m beginning to think he is Spider-Man.” This fall, the Merry Marvel Marching Society fan club is launched. No compensation goes to the comics creators, and the club eventually boasts 50,000 members, all paying $1 each to receive the membership kit. Stan’s secretary Flo Steinberg has to come into work on weekends to handle the volume of mail from it.

FLO Steinberg:

“Nobody expected the fan-club to be so big. There were thousands of letters and dollar bills flying around all over the place. We were throwing them at each other.”

1991: Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World’s Greatest Comics by Les Daniels

September 1964

“...one of the guys in the bullpen gave Stan an idea for a new D.D. story.

The plot is so complicated, so off-beat, so utterly impossible to make any sense out of, that Stan immediately decided to adapt it for a script! ...Don’t miss D.D. #7!”

Daredevil #6 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Is this “guy” Wally Wood? Issue #7 is the remarkable SubMariner vs. Daredevil issue, which Wood illustrated. “...we thought everybody knew that jolly Jack Kirby draws practically all our covers... as for the inking, whichever guy in the bullpen grabs the cover first, inks it!”

Avengers #13 letter column, written by Stan Lee

[2015] “...one day Stan said our past covers weren’t good enough for some reason, so our cover collaboration was badly flawed. The next time to do a cover, I had the blank cover sheet. Stan suggested some idea. I roughed it out but he didn’t really like it. He suggested another idea and again I roughed it out, but it was again not really good enough.

“At some point, he asked me for an idea. I told him he said our collaboration ideas weren’t good enough... fine. Tell me what you want, I’ll rough it out, you okay it, and I’ll pencil and ink it.

“Stan couldn’t decide on what to actually do for the cover.”

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

“As for signing the covers, we don’t have room for all the signatures we’d usually need! (Like: Layout by Stan Lee. Penciled by Jack Kirby. Inked by Chic Stone. Revisions by Sol Brodsky. Lettering by Artie Simek. Coloring by Stan Gee.— get the idea?)”

Tales of Suspense #65 letter column, written by Stan Lee

This response implies that Lee usually does all the cover layouts, and Kirby only pencils what he is told to draw. It’s certainly possible, even likely, that Stan and Jack routinely discussed what would be depicted on Marvel’s covers, as Stan’s role as editor is to make sure they are commercial and salable. But it’s also not a stretch to think that any artist who reads that term “layout” will immediately think it implies Stan is giving Jack a literal rough sketch to work by, thereby lessening the level of credit Kirby deserves. To date, I’m not aware of any such sketches that exist,

This page from Avengers #12 shows Don Heck’s own margin notes for Stan Lee to use when dialoguing the issue.

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Again, there’s no plot credit in #132, but based on this vague description, I assume Lee has gotten the basic Dr. Strange art from Ditko at the time of this writing, but hasn’t digested Steve’s plot yet.

TURNiNG POiNT! NOVEMBER 1964

By the time work begins on Amazing Spider-Man #25, Lee and Ditko stop speaking to each other, and Ditko deals only with Sol Brodsky when turning in his work.

[2008] “Stan Lee chose not to communicate with me on anything since before issue #25 of The Amazing Spider-Man.” 2008: Steve Ditko quoted in The Avenging Mind

[2015] “I took a penciled job to the Marvel office as I normally did.

Sol Brodsky, Stan’s assistant, did something he never did before. I had usually gone into Stan’s closed-off office if he wasn’t with anyone. But this time, Sol took the penciled pages from me. I thought he just wanted to look at them. But he took the pages into Stan!

“I stood there, looking at Flo Steinberg, Stan’s secretary. No reaction?! Sol came out, saying nothing to me?! I left... At some point, I got a call to pick up the Stan-scripted and lettered pages I had taken in. I always picked up pages from Stan, he’d tell me about anything to change, add, etc. I went to the Marvel office. Silent Sol handed me the pages to ink. No comment about anything. I left with the pages.

“I inked the pages, took them in, Sol again took the pages from me and into Stan’s office—came out saying nothing—and I left.

“So, back at my office, I decided on my own to do the next, follow-up [issue] with some new villain.”

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

Spider-Man #25 introduces Mary Jane Watson, albeit with her face obscured. Ditko begins receiving a plotting credit in the credit boxes with this issue.

Also this month, Jack Kirby draws Fantastic Four #39. Wallace Wood ends up inking the Daredevil figures—likely because Jack is unaware that Wood designed a new costume, and uses the old version. So Lee has Wood correct it on the FF story, and gives him credit for the makeover: “...how about DD’s new costume??

Wally took days to dream it up—he was never quite satisfied with the old one. And, the Marvel madmen figured that he’s the guy who has to draw it, so he might as well design the one he wants to.”

Daredevil #7 page by Wallace Wood.

and Jack may well have viewed this as Stan trying to grab credit where he doesn’t deserve it.

Meanwhile, Jack Kirby does layouts for Avengers #14, to get the book creatively back on track. Per this issue’s letter column, Larry Lieber and Larry Ivie wrote 14 pages of this issue, while Stan wrote only 6 pages himself, although he is credited for the plot. Kirby’s layouts for Don Heck include extensive margin notes.

“Jack was so proficient; it was incredible. In fact, I went [to his house] a couple times... he’d be sitting there with his little drawing table and the cigar smoke. The room was filled with pocket books, all science-fiction stuff. He was a very avid reader. He was unbelievable. He would turn out five, six pages a day. I was struggling, and he was knocking this stuff out like it was going out of style.

He was a very nice guy, very pleasant.”

DON HECK:

1991: Don Heck interviewed by Lou Mougin for Comics Interview #100

Daredevil #7 letter column, written by Stan Lee

October 1964

At this point, Kirby briefly takes over the Hulk feature in Tales to Astonish #68 from Ditko, before transitioning to

Wally Wood begins drawing Daredevil #7, and introduces the new all-red costume for Daredevil.

In the next issue blurb for Strange Tales #131, Stan Lee states: “As for Dr. Strange’s next adventure, you’ll have to see it to believe it! He actually is caught by Mordo, and then Dormammu pops up, and—sorry, we’re all out of space! You’ll have to see it for yourself!”

Strange Tales #131 letter column, written by Stan Lee

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Wood’s Daredevi l work is a far cry from the mu a year prior, su ndane material ch as inking Gil he produced jus Kane on DC’s © DC Comics.

Strange Adven t tures #154.

doing layouts only. If Jack doesn’t already have growing resentments, no doubt doing layouts for other artists would’ve caused some.

The best-case scenario goes like this: After a short plotting conference with Stan, Jack is forced to develop this brief conversation into a full story, figuring out how to pace it to fit the ten-page format, and provide in-depth margin notes for both the finished penciler and Stan to go by, so they will understand the story he is trying to convey. For all this effort, for which he applies his full imagination, he gets only a small percentage of his normal penciling pay (reportedly one-third to one-half his normal rate). It’s no wonder his layouts are simple Mike Gartland’s lightboxed version of Kirby’s original design for the Juggernaut, which was still visible in blue pencil under block figures—and yet what he turns in is enough for a pasted-up stat of the final panel of X-Men #12. Since Jack didn’t tend to use blue pencil, this suggests that Alex Toth also worked on the original Juggernaut figure.

Marvel to produce additional strips off his creativity, and continue the look and feel that he has established. The only credit he receives is “Layouts by Jack Kirby.”

As the year closes out, Jack Kirby creates a presentation for a This will continue throughout 1965, both in Astonish, and in new spy series, which becomes the debut of “Nick Fury, Agent of Tales of Suspense, doing layouts on the Captain America feature.

S.H.I.E.L.D.” in Strange Tales #135. He will draw the first issue in Many of the credits boxes say “Story: Stan Lee.” But is a brief January. He also fills in by drawing the pivotal first and last pages for conversation with Lee, where not much more is decided than “Hulk Sgt. Fury #18, which features the death of a supporting character. fights the Leader,” deserving of a solo credit for Stan for coming up Kirby also does layouts this month for X-Men #12, another with the story? It’s easy to see how Kirby doesn’t look too kindly on full-issue that he creates and designs the new villain The Juggernaut this as a creator. When later in life, Jack says, “I didn’t write the credit for—but at a reduced page rate. boxes,” this is the kind of thing he is talking about.

And while Ditko is providing a drawing for Jerry Bails to use in “Our next, and most important announcement is a tough Comic Reader #33 (published January 1965), in an obvious dig about one to write now, because we haven’t worked out all the final Steve Ditko’s plotting, Stan Lee writes of Spider-Man #25: “This details of it yet... for our next ish... there are going to be some may not have been the greatest story ever written, but it sure big changes made in the line-up of heroes who now make up our had more sub-plots than you could shake a Daily Bugle at!” roster!”

December 1964

Letters page for Amazing Spider-Man #25 written by Stan Lee

Avengers #15 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby provides layouts and extensive margin notes for Avengers #16— for a full 20-page story, instead of a shorter, less-prominent 10-pager. So he is undoubtedly involved in the planning for the line-up changes.

Meanwhile, Jack’s margin notes from Avengers #16 show he had major input on Stan Lee hands the story. off the writing for the Human Torch/Thing story in Strange Tales #132 to Larry Ivie, and only credits himself as editor. Ivie just writes this single story, because of Stan’s displeasure with the end result, as evidenced by his cover blurb which proclaims it: “Possibly the nuttiest, most mixed-up yarn you’ll read all year!”, and the letters page where he rather insultingly states: “...can you figure out exactly what our Torch and Thing story was all about? We have to admit it had us pretty confused! We read it over and over again and never could quite understand what the villain was really after! If it wasn’t too embarrassing, we’d offer a no-prize to anyone who could explain our own story to us. Oh well—!”

As for Dr. Strange, the next-issue blurb alludes to Ditko’s solo plotting on #133: “...we’ll bet you’ll never guess where Dr. Strange will find himself (we couldn’t guess until secretive Stevie told us!).”

Strange Tales #132 letter column, written by Stan Lee

But Strange Tales #133 doesn’t credit Ditko for the plot.

entation, which Jim Steranko

A page from Kirby’s spy pres

50

t at Marvel.

eventually inked as his tryou

1965 ing on s jump blisher --and u n p o w g e a n bandw tion to o c dman a r o e e o r h G in super an TV show-- oks, to ’s l e v r bo Ma Batm ith new wsstands. coming e up w the up off ne to com d e e e d L w s o and tell ting cr mans om get e Inhu d Coal h t p o keep fr evel name Kirby d inally ure Lee and anther (orig f which feat . o P h k ot atman b B Blac ), o y t b

by Kir similar ibution, and y l l a Tiger u r vis ist acter dded. vel’s d a char ls Mar to be a books contro C w D e n t bu ny llow a won’t a

Collaborations’ End

January 1965

Kirby’s creative influence continues to be felt across the line, even on books he isn’t drawing. The cover of Avengers #19 features a standalone Kirby image of the new character The Swordsman, surrounded by after-the-fact circles with Don Heckdrawn heads of the Avengers. Remove those Heck heads, and I’m convinced this is Jack’s concept sketch of the character; since Kirby’s original art is altered, it would’ve been done prior to the character’s headgear being changed for the story.

Another such example of Kirby influencing other books is related by Lee: “Wanna know how Stiltman turned out to be the villain he is?

When we first kicked the idea around in the bullpen, wistful Wally [Wood] started sketching a fella wearing eight-foot tall stilts. Then, smilin’ Stan came over to kibitz and suggested making his stilts at least 15 feet high! By the time we were done, jolly Jack Kirby cinched the whole thing by saying: ‘Next thing we know, you jokers will have him high-stepping over a skyscraper!’ Well, that did it!”

Daredevil #8 letter column, written by Stan Lee

h for Daredevil.

Wally Wood’s early Stiltman sketc

se tho y!

t un irb So it’s underCo es, K gi g i p standable, with his workload, that Kirby would make errors in the crunch of deadlines, as Lee pointed out to fans: “Wanna know a secret? (Don’t tell Jack we told you!) We were all set to send this month’s strips to the engraver when we noticed something. Our green-skinned glamour-puss had only four fingers and toes! Patiently, calmly, lovingly, we tried to explain to jellyhead Jack that it’s the Thing who has four digits—ol’ Hulky has five! But, by that time, his baby blues were concentrating on the next F.F. mag, and we had lost him again! But don’t worry... we fixed it in time!”

Tales of Suspense #69 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Kirby made this same mistake earlier on Avengers #2, shown above.

Stan’s own, somewhat exaggerated account of the creation process reflects a little of what his experience must be like at the Marvel offices: “Producing these stories is a pretty lonely business—we lock ourselves up in a quiet room, writing and drawing furiously, hoping to get as much work done as possible before the phone rings, or our bullpen buddies start kibitzing.”

In response to a letter writer suggesting Marvel bring back the Golden Age hero The Destroyer, Lee responds: “As for the Destroyer, he was a hero whom we featured so many 51

Avengers #19; the Swordsman is just one of many characters Kirby is contributing to books he isn’t penciling.

years ago that even we can’t remember much about him—but we’ll try to check back and see if he’s worth a revival.”

Strange Tales #134 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Interestingly, the Destroyer is one of the few Golden Age characters that’s credited today as being co-created by Stan Lee (with either Jack Binder or Alex Schomburg, in Mystic Comics #6 in 1941). While Stan never resurrects him à la Captain America and Sub-Mariner, he (or Jack) names a Thor villain “The Destroyer” in Journey into Mystery #118—an issue that Kirby is penciling while Lee is assembling this letter column. As Stan will be dialoguing the issue within a week or two, this timing seems too close to be a coincidence.

February 1965

Lee gives readers his rationale for assigning Kirby to handle the layouts on so many strips: “Jack needs another pair of hands for all the strips we’d like him to do, but instead of giving him a break by taking a strip away completely, we try to have him make rough layouts for the next penciler, so that the strip will still have that ol’ Kirby magic no matter who does it!”

Avengers #18 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Indeed, this month Kirby adds his magic by doing layouts for the Hulk strip in Tales to Astonish #71, the Captain America strip in Tales of Suspense #69, and the “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” strip in Strange Tales #136 (just one issue after he does full art for the strip’s debut). This is all in addition to his regular work on Thor and the Fantastic Four.

Simplistic as they may look, Jack’s “stick figure” layouts are clear enough that Stan can work from them.

Good examples are the existing copies of Kirby’s Tales of Suspense #70 layouts, shown at left; they are already dialogued and lettered, before George Tuska ever does the finished art. Such is the value of Kirby’s margin notes to Lee. And as this is Tuska’s first work at Marvel in the 1960s, the layouts are invaluable in helping him get a feel for the look and pacing required of a Marvel artist.

Lee reflects back on Kirby’s early attempt at SpiderMan in issue #8 of Spidey’s mag: “You’re right about Jack’s work needing some touching up in SPIDERMAN—especially since he hasn’t ever drawn that mag! (Except for one short strip, a couple of years ago!)”

X-Men #12 letter column, written by Stan Lee

[top right] Avengers #18 isn’t credited as having Kirby layouts, just a Kirby cover. But Jack was the “go-to” guy for keeping the Bullpen artists on top of their game, as evidenced by Stan’s note up the side of these Don Heck pencils: “Sol—stat Cap’s head—I’ll give to Jack & ask Jack tomorrow, to show Don how it should look in that position—a position which Don often draws.” The fact that several of these tattered stats from the issue are in Kirby’s files, shows Kirby helped Heck throughout the issue.

If Stan is referring to Jack’s work in Spider-Man #8, he apparently forgot about Kirby’s story in FF Annual #1, which is an expanded version of the meeting between the FF and Spidey from Spider-Man #1.

52

Detail from Kirby’s story in Amazing Spider-Man #8. Inks by Ditko.

Speaking of Ditko, Stan notices that “Ol’ Stevey Ditko has been slinking around with a sly smile lately. We don’t know what he’s up to...”

Strange Tales #135 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Ditko may be up to formulating his plans for SpiderMan Annual #2, which will feature both of his signature characters: Spider-Man and Dr. Strange. While Steve is plotting solo at this point, in what could be interpreted by him as Stan calling him arrogant, Lee has the Annual’s credits read: Stan Lee—“The toast of Marvel” Steve Ditko—“The boast of Marvel” Spider-Man Annual #2 does, however, give Ditko the solo plotting credit they’d agreed to. But despite these early steps to credit his collaborators, Lee finds ample opportunity to make sure fans think he’s the central creative figure at Marvel: “It’s kinda difficult to describe what a mixedup Marvel script looks like, Rick. Actually, it’s mostly a series of hastily scribbed notes, because the stories are usually created by batting them around in the bullpen, and then, after the artist has gone wild with the drawings, Stan swoops down and polishes up the dialogue.”

Letters page for Tales of Suspense #68 written by Stan Lee

March 1965

In the scene at left from FF Annual #3, it’s clear from the margin notes that Kirby intended Dr. Doom to bust up the wedding as

for the Thing having crushed his hands in FF #40. This nice bit of character motivation and continuity was either ignored or This month and/or last, Jack Kirby draws Fantastic Four revenge overlooked by Stan. [above] The finished Tales of Suspense #70 page, drawn by George Tuska from Kirby’s layouts on opposite page.

Annual #3. Lee and Kirby appear as characters in the story set at the wedding of Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Girl. the day the gods will perish. In this issue’s letter column, written But unlike past FF Annuals, there are no pin-ups—perhaps due to after Jack turned in his pencils for the story, a reader questions the all the original pitch art being used notion that Thor is predestined to for them already, or just not having die, and Stan responds: “Shucks, room for more pages.

Jackie, we know all about that Stan is shaping the public ‘doomed’ jazz! According to the perception that he’s the one dreamlegends, the day of the last great ing up most of the stories: “We battle, when the Gods would die, don’t yet know when ol’ Absorby is known as Ragnarok! But, stop will reappear ...but he’s proven worrying. All the Gods of the to be so popular with all you Marvel Age belong to us—and Asgardians that you can bet your we’ll find some way to save ’em Uru nail file that Thor will meet from Ragnarok—just wait’n him again—soon as our secret see!” Stan has publicly acknowlweapon (namely Stan) can dream edged that Jack is much more up a suitable plot!” familiar with, and interested in, Letter column for Journey into Mystery #119 written by the Norse myths than he, so Kirby Stan Lee may’ve been the one to introduce Journey into Mystery #119’s Lee to the legend of Ragnarok.

“Tales of Asgard” story ends with Why is the cover of JIM #119 the first mention of Ragnarok, pieced together from four interior

53

panels, instead of featuring an original cover [left]? Jack is probably too busy this month doing layouts for Tales to Astonish, X-Men, Tales of Suspense, and Strange Tales, as well as introducing Hercules in Journey into Mystery Annual #1— in addition to his usual work on Fantastic Four #44, the issue that introduces Gorgon, the first of the Inhumans that are originally considered for their own series. That issue will welcome Joe Sinnott back on Marvel’s flagship title as inker, taking it to new heights.

Based on Lee’s public comments, he and Kirby are still working closely on the direction of the Marvel line, and he isn’t hesitant to mention Jack’s involvement: “...Stan and Jack are still arguing about what happens next, so be sure to tune in next ish and see who wins! (That is, assuming there’ll be a next ish! If they don’t agree on a plot soon—hoo boy!)

“Stan and Jack were just kicking that same idea around the other day! As soon as they can dream up a suitable plot they do intend to update us on the current activities of rollicking Red [Skull]!”

After they butt heads in the process, Wood refuses to dialogue the following issue, causing Lee to include this last page blurb in #10: “Now that Wally got writing out his system, he left it to poor Stan to finish next issue. Can he do it? That’s the real mystery!

But while you’re waiting, see if you can find the clue we planted showing who the Organizer is!

It’ll all come out in the wash next issue when Stan wraps it up. See you then!”

Daredevil #10 blurbs written by Stan Lee

Stan relegates Wally to inking-only on the next issue, and stacks the deck publicly in his favor in #10’s letter column: “Well, if you’ve ever seen a more complicated, mixed-up, madcap mystery yarn then this one, you’ve got us beat by a mile! And now, here’s the payoff—Wonderful Wally decided he doesn’t have time to write the conclusion next ish,

Letters page for Tales of Suspense #69 written by Stan Lee

This month, fan Bill Schelly receives in the mail two separate packages from Marvel Comics: one with a Kirby Captain America sketch [above], and a second with a Steve Ditko Dr. Strange drawing. Both get used in his fanzine Super-Heroes Anonymous #2.

April 1965

Wally Wood, rankling at the Marvel Method that he views as unfairly putting unpaid work on the artist, demands to write (and be paid extra for) Daredevil #10, as well as draw it. Stan Lee agrees, but includes these snarky blurbs when he edits the issue: “Wally Wood has always wanted to try his hand at writing a story as well as drawing it, and Big-Hearted Stan (who wanted a rest anyway) said okay. So what follows next is anybody’s guess. You may like it or not, but you can be sure of this... it’s gonna be different!”

Wood was doing work outside Marvel in 1965, such as Forrest Ackerman’s Spacemen Yearbook. © Forrest J. Ackerman

This Karnak pin-up from FF Annual #5 has Kirby’s margin notes, an indication that it may’ve originally been a story page—or a concept drawing.

54

and he’s forgotten most of the answers we’ll be needing! So, Sorrowful Stan has inherited the job of tying the whole yarn together and finding a way to make it all come out in the wash! ...next ish will either be one of our Marvel moments of triumph, or another floppy fall on our foolish faces! It’s all up to Stan! Can he figure out a way to end this yarn? Can he tie all the clues together? Will he ever talk to Wally Wood again?”

And in response to a reader complaining about all the new gadgets being introduced, Lee responds: “Want us to let you in on an inside squabble, Larry? Sturdy Stan agrees with you—he is also opposed to so much gadgetry. But Winsome Wally really digs those hoked up appurtenances, and—being Wally’s the guy who has to draw them, Stan went along with him. But we’ll see how the future mail goes.”

Daredevil #10 letter column, written by Stan Lee

April is a big month for publicity at Marvel, as the Village Voice publishes the article “Super Anti-Hero in Forest Hills” by Sally Kempton—one of the first massmedia features to give legitimacy to Marvel’s comics being read by an older, college crowd. Stan is actively courting this kind of publicity, and takes advantage of every opportunity he can to play it up: “...did you know that ‘Dean’ Stan Lee was recently interviewed for three hours on the Columbia University [WKCR-FM] ‘Gabfest’ show?

With all the excitement our mags seem to be generating among colleges, we may have to move our offices to the nearest campus! (And wouldn’t that be a gig!)”

Tales of Suspense #72 letter column, written by Stan Lee

But at a time of Stan’s increasing public image (and artists miffed that part of Lee’s salary is being earned from their Marvel Method plotting), it may not’ve been wise to print, “Don’t tell Jolly Jack that money doesn’t grow on trees—he spends all his spare time planting seeds and hoping!”

Letters page for Fantastic Four #43 written by Stan Lee

Kirby is absolutely aware of Marvel’s massive sales increases during his time there, from a reported 13 million copies sold in 1963 [per Stan Lee in Castle of Frankenstein #12], to 33 million by 1966 [May 1966 Bullpen page], 50 million in 1968 [Oct. 1968 Bullpen page], and up to 60 million by the time he leaves the company in 1970 [Changes magazine, V2 #14]. He is also aware his page rate isn’t increasing proportionally.

An unused “Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD” pencil page, kept in the Marvel offices to be used for trying out potential new inkers.

Tales of Suspense must’ve been low on the priority list, as Stan’s “Next Issue” blurb is more vague than ever: “As for Cap, he’s about to undertake a brand new adventure—and it’ll be a wing-doozy, especially with you along to cheer him on!”

Tales of Suspense #70 letter column, written by Stan Lee

May 1965

Letters pages play a big role this month, as Lee downplays his disagreement with Wood when he writes: “Daredevil #10: A real collector’s item! On a dare, Stan let Wally Wood write this one, and it’s the most off-beat mystery in years!”

The Mighty Marvel Checklist in Amazing Spider-Man #30 written by Stan Lee

1965 ad in Newsdealer

vel’s huge increases in

magazine, promoting Mar

Lee quietly changes the salutations on most of Marvel’s letters pages, to just “Dear Stan,” without including any artist’s name. While certainly within his rights as editor, it’s a step that, in hindsight, seems an obvious self-promotional strategy, the first of many as we’ll see. In the Strange Tales #138 letter column, as you’d expect, all the letters deal mainly with the new “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” strip by Lee and Kirby, but Jack is not referenced in the

sales since 1960.

55

salutations in any future Strange Tales letter columns for the rest of the series, except for one letter in #139 which apparently slips through.

While this conscious decision is repeated across the line, there are a few notable exceptions for his most valued personnel: Avengers keeps “Dear Stan and Don [Heck]” and continues with “Dear Stan, Roy, and John [Buscema]” after Roy Thomas takes over and Stan is just the editor.

Spider-Man retains “Dear Stan and Steve” until #37, which is right after Ditko quits—so Lee might’ve kept Ditko’s name on the salutations indefinitely if Steve had stayed.

But Spider-Man #27 goes on sale this month, with the credit line “Plotted and drawn by Scowlin’ Steve Ditko”, so things aren’t looking promising in the Lee/ Ditko relationship at this point.

t Lee This is typical of wha s of Suspense #71. layouts The “script” from Tale for the letterer, after Jack handed in his guide would type up as a ogued. dial be to y stor a for with margin notes

Fantastic Four sticks with “Dear Stan and Jack” through all 102 Kirby issues, and Journey into Mystery/ Thor likewise keeps “Dear Stan and Jack” until Kirby’s departure.

June 1965

While Kirby is doing layouts for X-Men­#16 this month, Wally Wood turns in his final inking for Daredevil #11 and quits Marvel.

Wood is likely already working on THUNDER Agents #1 for Tower Comics, which would ship in September 1965.

MARK EVANiER:

“[Wallace] Wood told [me] that as the reason he left Marvel; that he felt he was contributing too much to the storylines to not be paid some of the writing fee and that he had been promised a profit-sharing deal if his art boosted the sales on DAREDEVIL...which it did. And then he didn’t get the extra money.”

Nov. 21, 2012: Mark Evanier on Facebook

“I want the credit (and the money) for everything I do! And I resent guys like Stan Lee more than I can say!

He’s my reason for living... I want to see that no-talent bum get his...”

WALLACE WOOD:

Sometime between 1976–1981: Wallace Wood’s letter to John Hitchcock

Wood, Ditko, and Kirby are friendly and respect each other as artists and storytellers. Kirby has a past

Kirby provided layouts under these Bob Powell pencils in Tales To Astonish #74.

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Two-Gun Kid #78 Daredevil #11 X-Men #16 Fantasy Masterpieces #1 Amazing Spider-Man #33 Journey into Mystery #123 Avengers #23 Tales of Suspense #74 Fantastic Four #47 Tales to Astonish #75 Roy has no firsthand knowledge of the inter-office dealings at Marvel on any publications prior to these, but will gain insight as he becomes more entrenched there, working closely with Lee. As for Stan, someone else may’ve been completing his dialogue for X-Men #16 this month, over Jack’s layouts for artist Werner Roth from June. An eagle-eyed collector spotted Lee’s notes in the lower left corner of the last page of this issue: “3 panels—Remember PEOPLE still stand against the X-Men—Jack forgot”, and drew this conclusion: “Whatever Kirby originally wrote to finish off the Sentinels saga must have said the X-Men were finally safe (or something), and Stan needed to correct that. But the bigger question is: for whom? Who was Stan telling that to? Wasn’t he scripting the X-Men at that point? Or was someone ghosting for him already? He obviously isn’t talking to himself there.”

GLEN GOLD:

February 20, 2012: E-mail from Glen Gold to John Morrow

On Daredevil #11, Lee changes the letters page salutations from “Dear Stan and Wally” to just “Dear Stan”, but takes one last poke at Wood: “Well, that finally wraps that up! If you understand what these last two issues were all about, clue us in some time!”

Daredevil #11 letter column, written by Stan Lee (Wood’s final issue)

Wood isn’t the only major talent to leave Marvel, and Lee, this month: “We wish we coulda held on to Jumpin’ Johnny [Severin], but alas, our little will-o’-the-wisp just drifted away from us!”

Was someone other than Stan Lee following Kirby’s margin notes on this X-Men #16 story?

association with Wood on the Sky Masters strip, and Ditko moves to Tower to work with Wood just after he quits Marvel. No doubt they have occasions to discuss their concerns with each other, about Stan Lee and working under the Marvel Method.

Despite any behind-the-scenes tension, Lee keeps the illusion of camaraderie going: “When Stan and Jack read the line about Nick’s cigar making him look like a stupid cluck, they almost swallowed the two stogies they were puffing on!”

Strange Tales #140 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Lee quickly bounces back from both Severin and Wood’s departures, by having Kirby draw still more layouts—continuing on the Nick Fury strip for a variety of pencilers after Severin departs, and on Daredevil #12 for John Romita to follow. Along with pacing the story, Kirby designs the villainous character The Plunderer. Romita has just been hired, and completes his first work for Marvel inking Kirby’s cover and Don Heck’s interior pencils on Avengers #23.

Strange Tales #139 letter column, written by Stan Lee

TURNiNG POiNT! July 1965

This month, big changes are in store, when Roy Thomas joins Marvel Comics as Stan Lee’s assistant editor. At this point, Lee, even with his artists doing much of the plotting, needs help handling Marvel’s output. Having aced the “writer’s test” that features unlettered Kirby pages, Roy’s first writing assignment is Modeling with Millie #44 (cover-date Dec. 1965), which goes on sale in October. His first super-hero writing for Marvel is on the Iron Man half of Tales of Suspense #73. Lee plotted it (with an assist from Flo Steinberg) and then rewrote roughly half of Roy’s initial endeavor.

Thomas recalls seeing Kirby’s pages for Fantastic Four #48 when they first came into the office, with the Silver Surfer’s debut appearance. Based on this and his July start date, these are the titles that would’ve already been in-house for production around the time Roy started at Marvel:

Kirby’s original Plunderer design.

“Stan showed me Dick Ayers’ splash page for a Daredevil. He asked me, ‘What would you do with this page?’ I showed him on a tracing paper what I would do, and then he asked me to do a drawing of Daredevil the way I would do it. I did a big drawing of Daredevil... It was just a big tracing paper drawing of Daredevil swinging. And Stan loved it.

“He thought I’d been paralyzed doing romance, because I had told him I’d rather not pencil. Then, when I did my first Daredevil story, he threw out the first three pages I brought in JOHN ROMiTA:

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One of Dick Ayers’ tryout pages for Daredevil [above], and Romita’s first DD splash page [below].

l layouts by Kirby,

Unused Daredevi

for John Romita

to follow.

because they were too dull, like a romance story. And I had to agree with him that they were quiet. He got Jack Kirby to break down the first few pages for me. As soon as I saw Jack’s breakdowns, I knew exactly what Stan meant by pacing. Jack laid out two issues.”

2007: John Romita interviewed by Roy Thomas for John Romita... And All That Jazz

When Lee dialogues Romita’s Daredevil #12 pages a few weeks later, he includes this caption on page one: “This illustration was designed to lull you into a false sense of security! It may seem like the start of a TV soap opera... but just wait’ll you get to page three!”

Jack is beginning what would be his most fertile creative streak at Marvel, putting everything he has into his work, as Stan notes: “You should see King Kirby when he draws those pix of Thor straining his brawny biceps... The jolly one strains right along with him—making all sorts of nutty noises and grimaces as he draws those spectacular scenes! In fact, when Jack finishes drawing a fight sequence, he’s usually just as exhausted as his characters!”

Letters page for Journey into Mystery #123 written by Stan Lee

A late 1980s conversation with Jack’s wife will reveal there was more behind Kirby’s expressive nature than meets the eye.

“I remember when he used to draw the Hulk, he would have the expressions on his face. Or the Thing, as he was drawing, he would act out, the expressions all came out on his face, he was acting them out while he was drawing.

But I always felt he was the Hulk anyway, because he would sometimes be Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He could be very sweet and then he ROZ KIRBY:

58

would lose his temper and break a couple of walls. That is the way he would get his frustrations out. Jack has very strong hands, and especially back in New York, he would take his fists and knock it into the wall... If you see pictures a foot off the floor, you knew I was covering up a hole... That’s how he would take out his frustrations. He would break my walls.”

In that same conversation, Jack didn’t hold back: “Yes, I was a

These notes scribbled by Jack on the back of a Fantastic Four #46 stat give directions for what looks to be a Summer 1965 meeting with Stan or party at his home on the grounds of the Seawane Club, a members-only country club in Hewlett Harbor, New York. Could this be the fateful session that resulted in the “Galactus Trilogy” of FF #48–50?

very volatile guy, and I would build up these frustrations during my time in the industry, and then I would come home and... I would put my fist through a wall. And when I say put it through, I mean put it through. It would go right through the wall.”

August 1989-June 1992: Ray Wyman’s conversations with Jack and Roz Kirby

“The problem, sometimes, isn’t the super-villain... it’s your own irritability. The Thing would go berserk as much as the villain would.

He’d smash everything up. and I’d feel the same way.”

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview, conducted by James Van Hise

Galactus, who’s that big and powerful and travels through space, needs a herald’.”

TURNiNG POiNT!

Stan Lee Speaks At The 1975 San Diego Comic-Con Convention

After a plotting session with Lee, Kirby draws Fantastic Four #48 (the first part of the “Galactus Trilogy”). The Silver Surfer is created and added to the story by Jack, without Stan’s prior knowledge: [1975] “Jack and I had discussed a story dealing with Galactus... I don’t remember; Jack may have come up with the name Galactus, or I might’ve... The thing came back, and lo and behold, Jack had Galactus, and I loved it... as I’m looking through the drawings, I see this nut on a surfboard flying in the air. And I thought, ‘Jack, this time you’ve gone too far.’

And under his cigar, Jack said, ‘No, no, Stan. I figure anybody like

[1976] “...when I created Galactus, I was looking for a new type of super-villain. And there I was with all these super-heroes. All these super-heroes were teamed up against ordinary gangsters or mad scientists, and I felt that kind of thing just wasn’t evenly matched. I had to get a match for those super-heroes, and naturally the ordinary gangster didn’t fill the bill. Using a gun against a super-hero I felt was kind of unfair. I had to get a villain who’d get an atom bomb or he’d get a disintegrator of some kind. Gangsters can’t invent that sort of thing. So I created Galactus. And, of course, Galactus was an omnipresent thing. In fact, he was omnipotent from the first time I—he was a variation of God. I’d felt I’d come up against God, something completely omnipotent. Because the devil isn’t supposed to be omnipotent.

He’s got a weak spot somewhere, see, and we’re supposed to be able to outwit him in some way. Well, you can’t outwit God. And I felt that way about Galactus. And here I discovered Galactus, and I said, like God, ‘How do I contend with him,’ see? So, in the first story, I backed away from it... “...with Galactus, when I felt that that was possibly my version of God, I thought, well, as long as I’m going to do that sort of thing, I’ll include the fallen angel. And I got the Silver Surfer out of the fallen angel of Galactus. And, of course, I couldn’t say ‘fallen angel’ in a Biblical sense. I put him on a surfboard because surfing was popular then. It became popular in California, and I read the papers, and there were all these guys walking around with surfboards, and they were putting out specialty magazines on surfing, and it became extremely popular. So I felt that might be a source of sales among young people who liked to surf. So I created the Silver Surfer, and I gave him the role of fallen angel, and Galactus banished him to Earth, which God did to the devil. God banished the devil to Earth, or the devil was supposed to have fled before God to Earth and stayed there. And, of course, this happens to the Surfer in the style of the fallen angel. Although people don’t see him in that role, that was the original role that I intended for him, although he isn’t an evil character. But he has a power about him that’s typically Biblical, just as Galactus does. Galactus eats entire worlds, he eats entire planets. It’s an omnipotent type of thing, which, you know, the more ordinary super-villain can’t engage in.”

October-early November 1976: Jack Kirby interviewed at the Lucca Comic Art Festival in Lucca, Italy

Let’s examine what FF #48–50 would’ve been like if Jack never threw in the Silver Surfer. For the sake of argument, let’s say this is the FF #48–50 plot (pre-Surfer) that Jack gets from Stan (and assume Jack has no input at all, which is unlikely): “A giant outer-space villain comes to Earth to destroy it. The FF fight him and his minion valiantly, but fail to stop him. At the end, the Watcher intervenes (yet again, despite his vow not to), gives Johnny an Ultimate Nullifier, and the villain leaves Earth.”

Kirby’s pencil art from Fantastic Four #49.

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August 1965

As Kirby does more layouts for John Romita for Tales to Astonish #77, Lee prepares a “Special Bullpen Bulletin” proclaiming new artist John Romita was considered the “heir-apparent to the throne of King Kirby himself!” in the 1950s, and touts his amazing artwork—but neglects to mention that it’s all being done over Jack’s layouts so far.

In response to a reader’s compliments about Wally Wood’s writing on Daredevil #10, Lee responds: “Glad you liked Wally’s story, but we’ll let you in on a little secret—Stan the Man couldn’t keep his hands off the script, and when Our Leader got thru editing it, about the only thing left that Wally himself had written was his name!”

Daredevil #12 letter column, written by Stan Lee (Romita’s first issue, over Kirby’s layouts)

So after bashing Wood’s writing, now that a reader is praising it, Stan’s taking full credit for the end product.

“I enjoyed working with Stan on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing and I was being paid for drawing but he didn’t have any ideas. I’d go in for a plotting session and we’d just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt that I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.

“But remember that issue of Daredevil I wrote?

Stan said it was hopeless and that he’d have to rewrite the whole thing. Then I saw it when it came out and he’d changed five words, less than an editor usually changes. I think that was the last straw.”

WALLACE WOOD:

Circa 1978: Mark Evanier’s interview with Wallace Wood, published on Kirby-L, the Jack Kirby internet mailing list, July 5, 1997.

Around this time, Steve Ditko answers a fan’s questions: Who originated Spider-Man?

Daredevil #13, pag

“Stan Lee thought the name up. I did costume, web gimmick on wrist, & spider signal.”

e 1, from Kirby’s layo

uts.

Do you stick to your assigned script or do you sometimes drift?

Regardless of whether this plot comes solely from Stan, from Jack, or a combination of the two, this is all Kirby has to go on when starting FF #48. It sounds like more or less any other Marvel plot of the era, and could’ve been conceived between Lee and any of the Marvel artists of the day—and it could’ve easily been completed in one issue.

Add Kirby and the Silver Surfer, and suddenly you have the subplot of blind Alicia trying to humanize Galactus’ herald, and convincing him humanity has value—and the herald turning on Galactus, and being stranded on Earth. It changes from a run-of-themill one-off to an epic three-issue continued story—which would never have happened without Jack’s input.

Without a doubt, the dialogue that Stan adds after Jack paces the story and draws the pages gives it polish. And we shouldn’t minimize the importance of the creation of Galactus, and whatever input Lee has in it. But the characterizations and motivations in this story are all based around things added by Jack in the preliminary “crossword puzzle” he draws on the art boards for Stan, and no other artist at Marvel would’ve been able to pull off such a masterpiece.

By creating the Surfer, Jack is rightfully attached to him. He has the character’s motivations in place in Fantastic Four #48–50, and expects Stan to stay true to those; which Lee does in this “Galactus Trilogy.”

“I am allowed to drift.”

The Comic Fan #2 interview with Steve Ditko, conducted by Gary Martin circa 1965

And drift he does, as Ditko quietly draws Captain Atom #78 for rival publisher Charlton Comics, relaunching a character he cocreated in 1960. I assume this means Steve has already decided to leave Marvel at this point, but does Stan get wind of it, and start 60

planning for his replacement on Spider-Man? Meanwhile, Lee gives a dramatic interpretation of what story conferences with Kirby leading up to Fantastic Four #47 have been like: “...the thought of 44 more years of Stan arguing with Jack about stories and artwork—the thought of all that yelling, and screaming, and desk-pounding...”

Kirby does the layouts for the Hulk story Lee refers to about a month before this is written, to indoctrinate Romita to the Marvel style.

So in essence, Jack is training his own competition by helping them ape his approach—and not getting the accolades for it.

In a tongue-in-cheek response that refers back to the ending of the previous issue, Stan conveys the importance Jack has as the X-Men layout artist: “Hey Jay [‘Gavin’, artist Werner Roth’s pseudonym] ...did they defeat the Sentinels?”

“Who can remember that far back, Stan?”

“Let’s ask Jack.

Maybe he knows. What d’ya say, Jackson?”

“I never sat in on their meetings. When they had a plotting session, the door was closed. But when Jack would send in, say, the first ten pages of a story—and this is how I knew where things came from—Stan would say to me, ‘Jack completely changed what we wanted the opening to be’... They didn’t always remember what the other had said.”

JOHN ROMiTA:

2007: John Romita interviewed by Roy Thomas for John Romita... And All That Jazz

“I don’t ever remember Jack not coming in for plot conferences. They would discuss the storylines and act-out and laugh—Stan and Jack’s synergy was amazing. There was never any acrimony or hard feelings between them during my time there [from 1963–1968].”

FLO STEiNBERG:

2010: Flo Steinberg letter to Mark Voger

September 1965

“Sentinels? Which mag were they in, fellas?”

“...what do you think of Johnny (Ring-A-Ding) Romita’s powerful artwork on ol’ Hulky this ish? Wouldja ever believe that just a few short months ago Johnny was drawing delicate romance strips for another company? Kinda chokes you up, doesn’t it?”

“—That’ll give you a rough idea of what life is like at the bullpen...”

X-Men #17 letter column, written by Stan Lee

Letters page for Tales to Astonish #77 written by Stan Lee

One of Ditko’s nicest fanzine illustrations, from Komik Heroes of the Future #6 (1964), published by Don Schank of Freehold, New Jersey.

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Kirby’s original visualization for the Sentinels from X-Men.

Ditko’s pencils and inks for Amazing Spider-Man #31, page 7. He added major details when he inked.

October 1965

Lee is giving credit to his artists this month, perhaps in reaction to Wally Wood’s leaving: “It isn’t generally known, but many of our merry Marvel artists are also talented story men in their own right! For example, all Stan has to do with the pros like JACK ‘KING’ KIRBY, dazzling DON HECK, and darlin’ DICK AYERS is give them the germ of an idea, and they make up all the details as they go along, drawing and plotting out the story.

Then, our leader simply takes the finished drawings and adds all the dialogue and captions! Sounds complicated? Maybe it is, but it’s another reason why no one else can bring you that old Marvel magic!”

Stan Lee is interviewed on The World Today radio program on the Mutual Radio Network and “... has a number of other radio interviews scheduled as well.”

Bullpen Bulletins page in Amazing Spider-Man #35

Lee is also interviewed for a National Observer article. The National Observer is sort of the USAToday of its time, published once a week by Dow Jones & Company, compiling major events and trends—so this is a very big deal for Marvel: The turning point for comics was about three years ago, when Stan Lee, editor of Marvel Comics for more than 20 years, decided to try to reach readers beyond the bubble-gum brigade.

Aiming at high-school and college students, he created the Fantastic Four... The FF were an instant hit, offering readers an escape into fantasy along with a chance to identify with the characters... Taking a cue from the success of the Fantastic Four, Mr. Lee developed what is probably his masterpiece: Spider-Man. Says the lean, 42-year-old Mr. Lee: “I started this whole thing on a lark. We were prisoners of a pattern. Every comic book was like the one before, and after 25 years of writing for comics I was getting just a little bit bored. I thought, with communications what they are today, the kids are more hip than ever before. Why couldn’t their comics be offbeat and more sophisticated? Frankly the overwhelming response took us by surprise. So many people so quickly read satire into our books. I

Bullpen Bulletins page for Fantastic Four #48 written by Stan Lee

After giving Ditko his plotting credit since issue #25, Amazing Spider-Man #31 doesn’t offer one, no doubt irritating Ditko. This doesn’t stop him from revealing some of his working methods to a fanzine publisher, just after he completes the “Lifting Scene,” perhaps his most heralded sequence, in Spider-Man #33 [next page]: How much time do you spend completing a story?

“It varies. The idea would be to just sit down and spend as much time on each panel or page as needed. But doing, say, just one 20-page story every four weeks means the writing and lettering have to be taken into account. I generally pencil five pages a day (I like four). The inking depends on how soon I get the story back after it’s lettered. I can wait a week or as long as three weeks. Dr. Strange or a sudden ink job is juggled in.”

Rapport #2 interview with Steve Ditko conducted by Robert K. Greene (published in 1966)

62

think they see more satire in them then we mean to put in.”

Martin Goodman, Marvel’s publisher, is also quoted: “We are now very much after an older reader— adults, and the 13- to 19-year-olds who really aren’t reading anything in particular. We write for them and yet we feel young children can still get a great deal out of the stories.”

The article ends by summarizing Marvel’s sales growth; from 13,000,000 copies in 1958, to its current 33,000,000 copies a year. If Kirby and Ditko aren’t aware of Marvel’s sales growth before now, this article makes it very clear to a massive national audience.

Back in the niche world of comics, in response to a letter asking to change Thor’s costume, Lee shows Kirby is the designer of any such changes: “...have mercy on jolly Jack—he finally learned how many buttons ’n bows ol’ Curlylocks has, and now you want him to dream up a new outfit! Cheee!”

Letters page for Thor #126 written by Stan Lee

Following two issues helping John Romita get the feel of drawing Marvel-style, Kirby may be pulling back from doing layouts for other artists, as Stan Lee conveys: “See why we claim Jazzy JOHNNY ROMITA is the greatest thing since bubble gum?

Can that gent draw action, or can he? And, he’s just warming up! In fact, Jolly JACK KIRBY, after seeing John’s next DD story, insisted that the jazzy one take over the chores of drawing CAPTAIN AMERICA, in Tales of Suspense, at once!”

The loss of Jack on X-Men’s layouts means a different way of plotting the book with artist Werner Roth (still using the pseudonym “Jay Gavin”): “Stan and Jay cooked this one up while driving home from work the other night—in the middle of a traffic jam—with horns honking all around—and everybody yelling and screaming!”

Daredevil #14 letter column, written by Stan Lee

X-Men #18 next issue blurb written by Stan Lee

“The first sour note Unused Kirby layo uts from the for me on X-Men came back of this X-Men #17 page. with my second issue, #21. I learned that, for reasons never made clear, Stan had told [Werner Roth] that he would be plotting the upcoming issues, and I’d be simply writing dialogue and captions for them. Now, understand: in those days, Werner wouldn’t have received one extra cent if he had plotted all the stories with no input from me; I’d have received my full script rate, then probably $10 a page. But I felt that I, not Werner, should be plotting the stories. I said so to Stan and I prevailed...”

ROY THOMAS:

2003: Roy Thomas interview from Alter Ego #24

This month, while drawing Strange Tales #144, Kirby introduces Jasper Sitwell, a dorky, but not unflattering caricature Kirby loosely bases on Roy Thomas.

November 1965

Evidence of Marvel’s popularity with the college crowd is seen in the November issue of the California Pelican, the humor magazine of the University of California, Berkeley. The issue features an analysis 63

of Marvel Comics titled “Critical analysis of contemporary pop art, or hey, there’s a whole bunch of stuff about comic books,” written by “Jolly Bob” Wieder.

A Marvel reader in Thor #127’s letter column says they should tell more about the next issue at the end of each issue. Lee’s reply gives some insight into his plotting with Kirby: “We would, Thomas, we would—honest—if we ever knew any more about it ourselves!

Usually, at the time one ish goes to bed, Stan and Jack have no more idea of what’s coming next than you do! So they make sort-of a game out of it—they pick a title out of thin air and then try to dream up a story to fit it!

We’ll admit it’s a nutty way to do things, but then, this is Marvel, n’est-ce pas?”

Letter column for Thor #127 written by Stan Lee

While Stan has no idea what’s next, Jack is doing most of the plotting by this point, and knows full-well where he is heading in this epic story arc that begins in Thor #124 with the introduction of Hercules, and ends with the battle against Pluto in the Underworld in #130.

This storyline marks a major turning point in Thor, away from the more mundane Earth-based stories with Don Blake, and toward more epic, cosmic sagas as Jack assumes near-total control of the creative direction of the strip.

Meanwhile, Kirby is drawing Fantastic Four #52, featuring the debut of the Black Panther, revised from his original Coal Tiger concept drawing:

The top row of page 19 of X-Men #17 was pasted over with redrawn art. Shown here are Jack’s unused pencil layouts and margin notes that remain under the paste-up.

[1970] “There was no pressure [to add a black character]. I thought it was time to do it. I found that there was a lack in myself. I found that I, myself, had not been doing it, and I felt it was my responsibility to do it, and I did it, because I’d want it done for me. It was as simple as that.

And it’s going to remain that way, as far as I’m concerned.”

[1986] “I got to hemming and hawing—‘You know, there’s never been a black man in comics.’ And I brought in a picture of this costumed guy which was later modified so he could have a lot more movement.

Actually, at first he was a guy with a cape, and all I did was take the cape off and there he was in fighting stance, unencumbered. The Black Panther came in, and of course we got a new audience! We got the audience we should’ve gotten in the first place.”

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

[1970] “I made up the name Black Panther before I was conscious that there is a militant group called the Black Panthers.

And I didn’t want to make it seem that we were espousing any particular cause. And because of that we’re not able to push the Panther as much, although we’re still using him.”

1986: Comics Interview #41 interview, conducted by Mark Borax

Jan.-Feb. 1970: Stan Lee interviewed by Mike Bourne for Changes magazine (published April 15, 1970)

But as major of an event as this will turn out to be, circumstances are shaping up behind-the-scenes at Marvel that will create one of the most dramatic changes of the 1960s.

“All we know about next month’s D.D. is that it’ll co-star your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man! We don’t know how, where, or even why—we haven’t drawn it, written it, or even plotted it out yet!”

Daredevil #15 letter column, written by Stan Lee

By guest-starring Spidey with Daredevil, drawn

by John Romita, is Stan already anticipating Ditko’s departure from Marvel—or planning to take the strip away from him and give it to Romita?

JOHN ROMiTA: Kirby’s original Black Panther concept (named “Coal Tiger”), and an unused first cover for his debut in Fantastic Four #52.

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“We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour.

Let’s examine the cover prominence for Dr. Strange, other than the small head in the upper left corner box.

He isn’t even mentioned on the cover of his origin issue, Strange Tales #110, or any issue until #117, so there are no big expectations for the character on Lee’s part.

Other than #123’s half-cover image (which includes both Thor and Loki by Kirby), he doesn’t get a prominent cover spot until #130—is there some newspaper/ media coverage of the good Doctor that explains why he goes from second banana to more noticeable for one issue?

All other covers give small illos at best, and only text blurbs (or nothing at all) at worst, until Ditko’s departure with #146. On #129, he is even relegated to just a small note saying: “No! We didn’t leave Dr. Strange out of this issue! We just didn’t have room for him on the cover!”, and gets a similar non-treatment on #134.

As soon as Ditko leaves, with #147, and continuing through the series’ end with #168, Stan devotes every other issue’s full cover to Dr. Strange—even alternating with ones that feature the fanfavorite Jim Steranko “S.H.I.E.L.D.” stories. Read into this what you will, but the change is not timed in direct response to Bruce Tolley’s letter.

Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life ‘threads’ he would like carried on.

Generally we would select the setting; sometimes we wouldn’t even have time to select the settings, like ‘it takes place on the subway.’ He would give me that, and tell me how he wanted it to end. I would have to fill in the blanks... A lot of times, I injected stuff in there....”

1999: John Romita interviewed by Jon B. Cooke in Comic Book Artist #6

As we’ve seen, Lee has always demonstrated an ambivalence for Ditko’s character Dr. Strange. In response to letter writer Bruce Tolley questioning the lack of prominence Dr. Strange receives on Strange Tales covers, Stan Lee responds: “We love Dr. Strange! He’s our baby! We think he’s a pussycat! We wouldn’t degrade him for the world! But SHIELD is a brand new feature, and as such, it’s generated tremendous excitement thruout comicdom! We’re just getting it off to a good start... and as soon as we can, we’ll give Baron Mordo’s perpetual sparring partner the featured spot on a captivating cover! Fair ’nuff?”

Strange Tales #144 letter column, written by Stan Lee

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A Likely Timeline Of Spider-Events 1965

• Late Summer 1965: Ditko picks up additional work at Charlton Comics, relaunching his 1960 co-creation Captain Atom with issue #78; is he already planning to leave Marvel at this point?

• Oct. 18: Ditko starts drawing Amazing Spider-Man #38, his final issue • Oct. 25: Ditko turns in penciled Amazing Spider-Man #38 • Nov. 1: Stan finishes dialogue • Nov. 8: Lettering completed, pages given back to Ditko for inking • Nov. 22: Ditko turns in inked Amazing Spider-Man #38 (and Dr. Strange in Strange Tales #146) and quits—he is well ahead at this point, due to solo plotting and inking his own work • Dec. 3: Romita begins drawing Daredevil #16, guest-starring SpiderMan, as a tryout (Lee knows Kirby isn’t right to take over Spider-Man, but ironically, Romita ends up drawing the character as muscular, handsome, and heroic-looking as Kirby originally is criticized for).

• Dec. 10: Stan makes “genius of the world” comment about Ditko in New York Herald Tribune interview (see 1966 chapter)

1966

• Jan. 5, 1966: Romita begins drawing Daredevil #17, part two of the Spider-Man story • Jan. 9: New York Herald Tribune article appears • Jan. 12: Stan writes the Bullpen Bulletins notice that Ditko has left Marvel • Late Jan.: Presumably after the release of the New York Herald Tribune article, Ditko asks Kirby to leave Marvel in solidarity; Jack initially agrees, but then changes his mind. His initial willingness to leave with Ditko shows that his issues with Lee and Goodman have been brewing long before that one New York Herald Tribune article saw print.

• Feb. 10: Romita begins drawing Amazing Spider-Man #39 to take over from Ditko • March 9: Romita begins drawing Amazing Spider-Man #40 as regular artist on the strip • March 10: Stan speaks at Princeton, telling fans Ditko has left Marvel, and praising Jack • April 12: Amazing Spider-Man #38 (Ditko’s final issue) goes on sale, containing the Bullpen Bulletins page announcing Ditko has left Marvel • May 10: Spider-Man #39 (Romita’s first issue) goes on sale

After darkening the scan, Romita’s margin notes are visible on this page from his first issue of Amazing Spider-Man [#39].

TURNiNG POiNT!

The reason for the paste-up covers on Ditko’s final issues with Spidey and Dr. Strange? Roy Thomas has said that Stan would wait to get Ditko’s inked final art, then pick a scene from it for Steve to recreate on the cover.

But since Ditko turned in his final stories and quit, there is no opportunity for him to create a cover for those issues.

not to know, hear why, I left.”

May 2001: The Comics!

Sometime between November 22–30, Steve Ditko quits Marvel.

Mark Evanier confirms that Sol Brodsky told him Ditko quit “Just before Thanksgiving,” and The Comic Reader #44 (December 1965) states, “Late the last week of November, Steve Ditko turned into Marvel the last Spiderman [sic] and Doctor Strange art that he would be doing for them.”

Lee’s explanation for why he didn’t ask Ditko to elaborate: [2004] “I was angry over the way Steve Ditko quit. He left in such a way that I wasn’t tempted to call him and ask him why.

He just showed up one day and announced that he was quitting.

He left his work and walked out. In fact, he didn’t even tell me.

I think he told Sol Brodsky, who was our production manager at the time.”

“Ditko wasn’t a great surprise, because after all, they weren’t speaking, and one day Steve walked in and just told Sol he was quitting. Sol was sitting there with a memo on his desk to give Steve a raise of $5 or so a page, or whatever they could afford, so it wasn’t a matter of the money. He just wanted to quit.”

ROY THOMAS:

2004: Comics Creators on Spider-Man interview with Stan Lee, by Tom DeFalco

Naturally, there are theories out there for why Ditko departed.

“The dispute was, he thought he was writing Spider-Man, but Stan was getting the credit.

As proof, he showed me a chart he had up on the wall that said when certain things were going to happen for the next six issues... plots, sub-plots, and how they were going to interact over that six-issue span. Stan would dialogue it when the pencils came in, so shouldn’t Stan be DiCK GiORDANO:

September 1997: Roy Thomas interviewed by Jim Amash, published in The Jack Kirby Collector #18

Why does Ditko quit? The man himself says years later:

[2001] “I know why I left Marvel but no one else in this universe knew or knows why. It may be of mild interest to realize that Stan Lee chose

66

considered the writer? You can argue the point, Steve argued that it wasn’t. And because of his new philosophy or social order, he felt it was criminal for someone to take credit for something he didn’t do. That’s what led to the break-up with Marvel and Steve Ditko.”

“Jack corroborated... Initially agreeing to walk, then backing out at the last moment. So did Roz. The thought pattern as envisioned by the two which Ditko had presented to them, was paralyzing Marvel so Goodman would finally listen.

“At first Kirby told Ditko ‘yes’ he would, then backed out at the last sec. Jack wanted to, but felt he could not as he had kids to worry about.”

2000: Dick Giordano interviewed in Comic Book Artist #9 by Jon B. Cooke

“Back in early 1969, my friend Steve Johnson and I called up Steve Ditko on the phone... and he tells us a tale of WHY he left Marvel. He put it forth plain and simple. He had been promised royalties if/when Spider-Man took off, which it did. Martin Goodman made promises of royalty sharing through Stan Lee—the latter acting as conduit for his boss.”

BOB BEERBOHM:

Bob Beerbohm, Feb. 11, 2012 on the Kirby Museum website

Ditko himself would remain mum on the exact reason until fifty years later, and Giordano’s account is actually pretty accurate:

[2015] “Why should I continue to do all these monthly issues, original story ideas, material, for a man who is too scared, too angry over something, to even see, talk to me? ...My next visit to Marvel, I told Sol I was quitting Marvel. Sol told Stan. The only person who had the right to know why I was quitting refused to come out of his office or to call me in. Stan refused to know why.”

Bob Beerbohm, Aug. 31, 2011 on the Comics Journal website

Beerbohm’s recollection includes a fascinating tidbit, that goes directly to how Kirby is feeling during this period: “...during a [1977 or 1978 San Diego Comic-Con]... during the course of this dinner... I first asked Jack, along with Roz, about Ditko’s aforementioned claim regarding ‘royalty’ concepts... [and] that Ditko had tried to get Kirby to walk at the same time.

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

December 1965

This month, Lee uncharacteristically invites Kirby to join him to be interviewed for the New York Herald Tribune—no doubt jumping on the media bandwagon started by the National Observer article. In it, Stan comments to interviewer Nat Freeland about Federico Fellini returning “in January”. The inked art that accompanies the article is from the cover of Fantastic Four #49, and the page mentioned in the first paragraph is from Fantastic Four #50, which would be on newsstands February 10, 1966, and is in final production in December. Based on the anecdotal evidence, I’m confident this interview takes place in December, after Ditko’s resignation. The plotting conference at the end of this article, such as it is, appears to be for FF #55, an issue just after the most prolific period of new character creation on the series.

“Jack told me the details of that famous interview with Nat Freedland. Jack said that Stan basically put on a show. As

STEVE SHERMAN:

Jack said, ‘Stanley was jumping on the desk, waving his arms like a crazy man. I just sat there on the couch and watched him. It was nutty. When it was over, I said a few words and went back to work. The article comes out and the guy writes what an amazing writer Stanley is. Who could work like that? By the time he was through jumping around, I had three pages done’.”

Let’s take a glimpse at how Jack was directing the early SHIELD strip, even though he wasn’t producing finished art in most cases.

On this page from Strange Tales #146, plotted by Kirby, Jack’s margin notes for the first panel provide a nice bit of characterization, which Stan picked up on in the finished dialogue:

February 25, 2015: Steve Sherman, by e-mail

“SHIELD men aren’t super men. They must run into occasional stand off and be prepared to die.”

Don Heck produced the finished art for this issue over Jack’s layouts, and Mike Esposito provided the inks. But in addition to laying out the story, Kirby designed the new characters. On the back of this page, Jack fleshed-out the basic design of the beasts that make a sudden appearance and departure in this sequence. He had named the character “The Pounder,” but it looks like Stan didn’t want to use such a good name for a throwaway character, so renamed the creatures the “Hammer-Hand Androids.”

Other notes by Kirby that are visible: “Around corner behind enemy comes stampede of scared artificial men.

“The Pounders mad with fright, run over technicians like herd of elephants!

They scream and yell and wave mighty hands with which they pound technicians down.

“Pounders run fell men into electric barrier and jump around as lashing power knocks ’em flat. Many stiffen in various attitudes in fireworks.”

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This supposed Fantastic Four #55 plot conference has Lee mentioning Dr. Doom has caught the FF while the Thing is battling the Silver Surfer.

However, in the published FF #55, Dr. Doom is nowhere to be found, and doesn’t actually show up for two more issues (Klaw is the villain in #56, making an entire other episode before Dr. Doom appears). So this casts some doubt as to whether this is an accurate representation of a plot conference (if so, Stan skipped an entire issue’s plot, and Kirby stretched a few sentences from Stan into FF #55–60, and tossed in the Klaw issue and subplots himself).

In the New York Herald Tribune interview, Lee says: “I don’t plot Spider-Man any more. Steve

Announcing Romita would draw an issue of Daredevil guest-starring Spider-Man, prior to Ditko’s resignation, lends more credibility to the idea that Stan is looking for a way to push Ditko out, or at least not have to work with him on Spider-Man any longer.

(The more jaded among us will see echoes of the Romita Spidey try-out in the 1970s chapter of this book, when Lee has John Buscema do an issue of Thor, breaking Kirby’s uninterrupted streak just before his departure from Marvel.)

As Stan compiles the letter column for Amazing Spider-Man #37, all the salutations are abruptly changed from “Dear Stan and Steve” to just “Dear Stan,” and there is no mention of Ditko in any of the letters, even though he has one more issue to go.

In Strange Tales #145, a verbose letter writer who’s studying occult sciences at Columbia University asks (as close as I can come to putting it into layman’s terms) how much “Dear Stan” enjoys doing Dr. Strange as opposed to other Marvel characters. Stan’s response: “...we always get a kick out of writing and drawing Doc Strange—perhaps it’s because he’s somewhat different than the average super-hero...” Any mention of Ditko has been judiciously edited out here.

This month, Kirby does layouts for Tales to Astonish #81, which features his documented design for the villain Boomerang.

In the letter column for Fantastic Four #51, Stan Lee solicits ideas for the Silver Surfer’s origin from readers, as a contest. Surely Jack has his own ideas for the Surfer’s origin; or has Jack already shared his vision of the character as a being of energy that always existed, and Stan doesn’t find this satisfactory?

As the year winds down, the October National Observer article about Marvel is picked up by United Media, a large newspaper syndication service that handles 150 comics and editorial columns worldwide. Titled “You’d Never Know New Comic Books” and written by Dave Burgin, it features an image of Spider-Man #34’s cover.

This article runs in papers across the country, and not all on the same date, giving Lee a wider audience to spread the gospel according to Marvel Comics. This article remains part of the NEA news service, and is published in numerous papers throughout 1966; I’ve found it as early as December 30, 1965 in the Arlington Times News (Marysville, Washington), and as late as June 24, 1966 in a Springfield, Missouri newspaper—more than six months later.

As far as the general public is concerned, the Marvel Age is officially here, and Stan Lee is the one who brought it about. But that New York Herald Tribune interview is about to become a pivotal nail in the coffin of Kirby and Lee’s collaboration.

Kirby’s concept drawing for the villain Boomerang, introduced in Tales to Astonish #81.

Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I’ll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own stories. He won’t let anybody else ink his drawings either. He just drops off the finished pages with notes at the margins and I fill in the dialogue. I never know what he’ll come up with next, but it’s interesting to work that way.”

Stan’s comment about Ditko here is critical to understanding their fractured relationship at this point. If this interview takes place before Ditko quit, it’d be ill-advised for him to say this, unless he wanted Ditko to see it in print and resign. And if, as it seems, he makes these comments knowing Ditko has already left, it’s either Stan venting his feelings about it without the public—or Kirby—knowing Ditko quit (in a rather petty way, as if he’s preparing an excuse to use once it’s public knowledge that Ditko is gone), or at the very least it’d ensure Ditko doesn’t change his mind and come back. Either way, the sense I get is that other than the inconvenience of having to find a new artist, Stan really doesn’t mind no longer having to battle with Ditko on the strip’s direction, and having to give him a plotting credit.

Kirby poses with a photostat of his cover art for Tales of Suspense #76.

That stat would’ve been in-house in late 1965, so if taken then, this is possibly a publicity shot done in conjunction with Lee and Kirby’s New York Herald Tribune interview.

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1966 of the episode l air, il e first w h t , s 12 ie ser #49 uary On Jan t Batman TV tastic Four s n e a W F y a d Adam e m a y the s oes on sale. t roughl g il firs y O’Ne , is year d Denn h n t a s h ic el Com Goodwin. riedric Gary F ing for Marv hie ork

by Arc les begin w be followed el’s Sa v o r t a M n , o 6 6 o so t 19 g t u in rougho crease, climb And Th sold. e to in continu illion copies m 3 3

Ragnarok authenticity of the FF #1 synopsis, there’s simply no hard evidence to support this theory.

Publicity shot similar to Kirby’s on the previous page. It matches a later 1966 photo in this chapter, so all three may’ve been done for upcoming articles in Esquire or the Chicago Sun-Times. Either way, it confirms Lee was including Kirby in Marvel’s publicity in 1966.

“I’m not gonna take anything away from Stan. He was a talented man. He did well with the books, with putting in the words and things. He was always very friendly with us... I think we went to Stan’s house once. We met Stan’s wife Joan a couple of times.

She was a very sweet lady. She didn’t get mixed up with the comics too much. She didn’t go to the conventions like I did.”

RoZ Kirby:

This year begins an era when Lee’s assistants may’ve occasionally been writing some of the letters page responses and Bullpen Bulletins, to lighten his editorial workload. Since Roy Thomas confirms that Lee continues actively doing much of that editorial work through 1970—and at the very least will read, edit, and approve it—I’m still attributing these quotes to Stan, as the overseeing “voice” of Marvel Comics in the 1960s.

By early this year, Marvel’s presence in the media has grown tremendously. According to the Bullpen Bulletins page in Thor #130 (which Lee would’ve written in February), Tom Dunn of CBS News and Mike Wallace of CBS Radio have recently interviewed Stan.

Also, more than a hundred newspapers will have run articles on Marvel, including the Chicago Daily News, the Akron Beacon Journal, The Topeka State Journal, The Altoona Mirror, The Milwaukee Journal, the Beckley Post-Herald and Register, Radio-Television Daily, and the New York Post. While many are simply re-running late 1965’s syndicated article, it’s still an impressive amount of coverage.

In one such article, reflecting back on the early days of 1960s Marvel, Stan Lee quips what is becoming his trademark recollection: “I was bored with writing the same sort of thing for over 20 years, and I decided to write the kind of story I would like to read. I figured that today’s kids were more sophisticated and would like a more sophisticated and offbeat type of story.”

December 12, 1995: Roz Kirby interview conducted by John Morrow for Jack Kirby Collector #10

“Roz was the perfect mate for Jack; protective, caring, always at his side. I couldn’t imagine him being married to any other woman. The rift between Stan and Jack was so incredible because they started with such an exciting thing.

“They had the first big write-up in the magazine section of the New York Herald Tribune. The reporter wrote something like, ‘Stan came into the room—this slim, Rex Harrison lookalike with blah, blah, blah,’ and Jack Kirby was a roly-poly man who looked like he wore a girdle. When Roz and Jack read that the next morning they thought Stan had given him that, but of course it had nothing to do with Stan—nothing at all, but their hurt must have been intense. I believe that’s when that rift first started. Roz never got over it, until the very end when we talked.

“It was so horrendous of that man to write such a thing, but none of us had a chance to read it beforehand. I was always amazed the newspaper editor allowed such a cruel and unfair comment to appear. I think that article that put Jack Kirby down bothered Stan more than anything ever written or said about Stan.”

Joan Lee:

1966: Cleveland Press article by Don Thompson

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

TURNiNG POiNT! January 1966

From this point on, Lee seems much more concerned with giving Kirby credit in public appearances and interviews, now that Jack

On January 9, the New York Herald Tribune article appears, causing a major in space since been somewhere out rift in the Kirby/Lee relationship. Stan Lee “The Silver Surfer has ng Earth,” begins Galactus from destroyi stop “I don FF the ed help he ’t plot receives an angry phone call this morning bring him back?”

Steve Spide Lee. “Why don’t we r-M D y. the st itko, the art an any m “Ummh,” says Kirb d, is in some from Jack’s wife Roz Kirby, livid about her ories. o is re t, . has b Thing’s blind girlfrien I gu until sa Lee “Suppose Alicia, the adison les sta ess I’ll leav een doing comes to help her.” er -M Surf tra er ul Silv the g an rt e ot so husband’s portrayal in the Yorker, horsy kind of trouble. And up. popula to slip. Sin him alone native New rison. He’s got that g as he gets warmed a g urin r, c e is gest , e n and D e. ng 43 iu S itko pid so the starts paci Har -pitched voic Stan Lee, article. Every little jab or ke of Rex l gray hair, He has kind of a high so mu f the world thinks he ey nder“I see,” says Kirby. ngy lookali thinning but tastefu deep ’s ch . together and he misu Avenue, ra ivity and a es, start m over plot We were a the t the Thing sees them be in capt , morous ey “Bu rg ro li ay slight, real or perceived, Surfer. And rd hu a n sd er u d k wa ur e Silv in in an s, the g g up h ague t with y, Th jaw I told figh Le da big y es a ts Iv Tu star d y he re So t is er him lo ev ou stands. own st of trouble. Doctor brightest-co mes from working e, cranking ories.” to tastic Four is in lots up to this point could’ve co rban terrac meanwhile, the Fan they need the Thing’s and suntan that Sunday on his subu n agai them ht d ly.

Doom has caug g punches now. played a role in this Saturday an e Marvel mags week around and throwin Lee arrives plet help.” Lee is lurching at his plot three com artists. He s in sort of says Kirby. ht,” “Rig But then Alicia reaction. Some have even inserts the ESP sessio s the Silver Surfer. dialogue af in. Here he ns with th “The Thing finally beat ter the pict ake. This is what e is in actio ure layout made a terrible mist n at his we meeting wi he’s ize speculated that Martin real him es com mak ek hing else, that he th Jack “K ing” Kirby, ly Friday morning su es feared more than anyt a man wh m the Thing has always o created Goodman may have influenced the reporter ly clobber somebody.” many of th a veteran comic book mit real mine: The and trol con e visions of artist, would lose Ki your child baggy Robe ng is a middle-aged hood and Kirby nods. off by himself. man with to shade the article so Lee, his relative and rt Hall-ish baggy eyes enhearted. He wanders suit. He is and if you “The Thing is brok to the and a sucking a stood next ia or go back home Alic huge green to him on face him for th to company employee, comes out looking like med cigar the subway He’s too asha e assistant he’s failing for the foreman in you would doesn’t realize how He r.

Fou ic sags back tast pe a Fan Lee girdle fact g him.” the sole creator of the Marvel Universe, ory. much the FF needs second time... How t. spen and limp , on his desk crumpled in. thereby helping Goodman’s chances of sellof the chair he was y Kirby has leaped out mouth and his bagg his of out is r ciga ing his company—but as in questioning the usiasm.

“Great, great.” The e is young with enth eyes are aglow. His

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high voic

[1968] “I [did] a little editing later, but it was [Kirby’s] story.”

1968: Castle of Frankenstein #12 interview, by Ted White

Before departing on his train trip to Florida, Stan assigns Roy Thomas to dialogue the Iron Man/SubMariner melee in Tales to Astonish #82 in his absence.

Illustrator Gene Colan takes ill after finishing only two pages, and Kirby fills-in at the last minute to complete the story. While Stan receives the published plotting credit, Roy Thomas gives Kirby full credit for the plot of the finished story.

In Lee’s absence, things at Marvel don’t sit still. Kirby draws Fantastic Four #55, featuring the first appearance of the Silver Surfer since the “Galactus Trilogy.” The story uses bits of the “plot conference” depicted in the New York Herald Tribune article, and the Surfer’s characterization and motivation stay true to what Kirby indicated in his original appearance in FF #48–50.

On February 9, Denny O’Neil, filling in while Stan is [left] The original from Captain America Comics #7, and [right] the sanitized version from Fantasy Masterpieces #6, sans credits. on vacation, responds by letter to a fan. O’Neil includes has finally spoken up about it. Stan, realizing he’s already lost Wood a photocopy of Kirby’s pencil art from page 2 of Fantastic Four #47: and Ditko, certainly doesn’t want to lose Kirby, who is

inarguably much more important to Marvel than the other two artists.

While Stan may’ve been bothered by the author’s portrayal of Jack in the article, there was no such concern for Ditko, who is portrayed badly by Lee himself, saying, “Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world.” But since it appears in print after Ditko quits Marvel, it doesn’t play a factor in his leaving.

To inform readers of Ditko’s departure, Lee puts together a next-issue blurb in Amazing Spider-Man #38 meant to reassure them that all is well with their favorite comic book: “NEXT ISH: ...the start of a new era in Spiderdom! Don’t dare miss this landmark issue which features a new hand at the artist tiller, as jazzy Johnny Romita takes over the illustrating chores, while our lovable leader, smilin’ Stan, prepares to write the greatest yarns of his award-winning career!... SPIDEY #39—the start of another magnificent Marvel march to greatness...”

Stan also pens the next-issue blurb for Ditko’s final Strange Tales issue (#146) with a bit less aplomb for a character he’s not as attached to: “As for Doc Strange, be on hand to see who his new artist will be in Strange Tales #147—and, we’ll be as eager to meet him as you are—because we still haven’t the vaguest idea who he’ll be!”

This month, Fantasy Masterpieces #3 would start being assembled from reprints, with the first of several Golden Age Captain America stories. Both Simon and Kirby’s names are removed from the splash pages, to ward off any possible claims of creatorship, since Carl Burgos is already taking legal steps to secure the copyright on his 1939 creation, The Human Torch.

February 1966

Stan Lee goes on his first-ever vacation (likely needing a break after the loss of Ditko, and the stress with Kirby over the New York Herald Tribune article), and leaves Kirby to both draw and dialogue the S.H.I.E.L.D. story for Strange Tales #148 after plotting the story together. Lee noted in an interview:

Photocopy of Kirby’s pencil art from Fantastic Four #47, sent by Denny O’Neil to a fan.

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“Enclosed is a rough draft of a F.F. page, all we now have here at ye office. (Stan and the artists do most of their work at home.)

What you see is a copy (Xerox and reduced by two-thirds) of Jack’s pencil work. The notes in the margins are Jack’s—he actually plots the story as he draws it, after an initial, and usually brief, plot conference with our leader. From the marginal comments, Stan does the script . Most of our artists have enough of a story-sense to be able to develop their tales from either a conference or brief paragraph.

“Mr. Goodman insists that we keep sketches and editorial comments for reference and reprint. And also, I suspect, so our little secrets re: characterization don’t fall into Dire Conspiratorial hands.”

This month, Myron Fass’ Captain Marvel #1 is published. The character (who splits into pieces to battle crime) co-opts both the famous 1940s character’s moniker (not used since Fawcett’s 1953 legal settlement with DC Comics), as well as the name of Martin Goodman’s company, in a likely attempt to cause market confusion.

The short-lived series is drawn by Carl Burgos, creator of the Human Torch, who Myron Fass’ Captain Marvel #1; he also co-opts the Plastic Man name! is no fan of Marvel.

Goodman no doubt looks unfavorably upon the competition, and has a hand in directing Jack Kirby’s work on Fantastic Four Annual #4 around this time. To stave off a copyright battle with Burgos—and to get back at him for working on Fass’ Captain Marvel—this story resurrects the original Golden Age Torch, and immediately kills him at the end. FF Annual #4 sees print this summer, just in time to renew the initial 28-year copyright on the Human Torch, and thwart Burgos’ chance to reclaim the character. In the Annual, after the original Torch dies, the Thing proclaims (via Stan Lee’s dialogue): “Well, let’s face it, ya win a few... ’n ya lose a few!” while Johnny Storm muses, “He tried to defeat me... and yet, I can’t find it in my heart to hate him!”

After this sees print, that summer, Burgos’ daughter sees her father destroy everything he has pertaining to his comic book career.

“I never saw his collection until the day he threw it all out... there was a whole pile of stuff in the yard... I got the impression that he either lost the case or something else had happened pertaining to it... I grew up believing that he came up with this fabulous idea, and that Stan Lee took it from him.”

On the back of a stat of his art from Strange Tales #138— provided to him by Marvel to help him keep up with issue-toissue continuity—Jack scribbled these cryptic words in pencil (apparently during a bout of research). After a bit of detective work, I discovered that these are the names of four gods of Norse mythology, which Jack used in Thor Annual #2 (drawn in Feb. 1966).

March 1966

Once Lee returns from his February vacation, Kirby is motivated to insist on some changes in their working relationship. He is drawing Fantastic Four #56 at this point, which is the first FF issue with a “Produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby” credit instead of separate listings for writer and artist. Jack’s festering resentment over lack of accurate credits has hit the fan due to the New York Herald Tribune article:

[1987] “...when I began asking for a little more credit, say, a writer credit, he cut the horse up fine and said it was ‘plotting.’ And no matter what I said, he was the publisher’s relative and Goodman was big on family.”

December 8, 1987: Village Voice interview with Jack Kirby

When asked if this credits change was the result of Kirby actively asking for it, Jack’s wife insisted:

SUSAN BURGOS:

Sean Howe’s 2012 book Marvel Comics: The Untold Story

In addition to doing layouts for others, Jack was called upon to pinch-hit complete stories when other artists missed their deadlines, such as the SubMariner story from Tales to Astonish #83. Here are Jack’s handwritten plot notes for that story, from a phone or in-person conference with Stan Lee. This was the second story of a two-parter (continuing from his fill-in on issue #82 the month before, when regular artist Gene Colan caught the flu after completing two pages). Jack jotted these notes on the back of stats from Strange Tales #146, which he also laid-out for Don Heck.

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“Of course! He used to ask for it all the time...We always asked for a lot of things all the time, and finally they put down ‘Produced by...’ because it’s just ridiculous, you know. I don’t think Jack would’ve fought if I didn’t kick him in the pants.

I think I was more angry than he was.”

RoZ Kirby:

December 12, 1995: Roz Kirby interview conducted by John Morrow for Jack Kirby Collector #10

Lee, however, recalls it differently: [2001] “Kirby never asked me for co-writing credit. It was he who originally suggested the ‘By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’ credit, and as far as I knew he was quite contented with that.”

Oct. 11, 2001: Jack Kirby Collector #33 interview by Jon B. Cooke

Kirby begins backing away from doing layouts for other artists. After several successive issues of Jack’s involvement, his layouts for Tales to Astonish #84 are due now, but instead of the usual “Layouts by Jack Kirby” credit, the Hulk story says “Art... almost the whole blamed Bullpen.” This indicates a last-minute emergency job, and the story is a horrible mishmash of styles. While it’s possible there are uncredited Kirby layouts under it all, it seems more likely that, in a reaction to the New York Herald Tribune article, Kirby decides that he’s had enough of doing other people’s work, for only a small percentage of the pay and credit.

In what could be viewed as an act of defiance against Lee (and admittedly speculation on my part), Jack Kirby plots and pencils Thor #132, featuring the debut of Ego, the Living Planet. It seems entirely plausible to me that Jack comes up with a character named “Ego” as a reaction to how he viewed Stan’s grandstanding in the press and the comics (as if Kirby’s thinking, “This guy’s ego is so big, it takes an entire planet to hold it”). Since

Jack is drawing this issue right after the New York Herald Tribune article angered him so, that makes it even more likely. Apparently to make him more mysterious on the cover, Ego’s face is altered on Jack’s original art [below].

For his part, Lee starts giving Kirby more public credit, as when writing the Bullpen Bulletins page for Fantastic Four #54 this month: “And, for the most unexpected surprise Above is Stan Lee’s plot synopsis for stories Kirby would’ve been starting around March 1966; just after the New York Herald Tribune debacle, and Lee returning from his vacation. First is Thor #134–135, followed by Fantastic Four #57–60, and finally the Captain America feature in Tales of Suspense #82–84. You have to assume this was given to Jack, prior to him beginning work on any of these stories, and it’s fascinating to see how he took these basic ideas, and built multi-issue arcs out of them—great stories, but they aren’t regarded as his most pivotal work.

Interestingly, these immediately follow Jack’s most epic creative bursts on each series: FF #44–52 (ending July 1966) with all the new character introductions; Thor #125–130 (ending July 1966) with Thor and Hercules battling Pluto in Hades; and ToS #79–81 (starting July 1966), with Cap vs. the Red Skull over the Cosmic Cube. So July 1966 issues would seem to point to some kind of a creative turning point here.

Lee and Kirby at

a 1966 meeting

Jack was a “pack rat” who saved everything, but very few of these synopses have surfaced. What does the lack of ones for earlier issues indicate about Lee and Kirby’s working relationship, both before and after the New York Herald Tribune article?

. rtoonists Society

of the National Ca

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Lee seems to be bending over backward to give Jack credit here, no doubt due to the fallout from the Herald Tribune article, and the fact that Ditko has already jumped ship. At the same time, he’s simultaneously complimenting and insulting Steve Ditko, who’d just left Marvel, and shading the actual events—Ditko doesn’t mail-in the work (though he may have sometimes), he doesn’t phone-in to quit, and Stan saying he “writes the stories” portrays Lee as the idea man behind stories Ditko plotted.

The following week, at least two newspapers run articles recounting Stan Lee’s talk at Princeton. On March 13, the Trenton Sunday Times Advertiser of Trenton, New Jersey, ran these quotes from Stan: “Five years ago, we switched to super-heroes, but not like other super-heroes. We asked ourselves what would anyone do if he suddenly gained superpowers. So we have heroes with human problems. The Spider-Man’s girl hates super-heroes, for example.

“I really like to do ‘The Mighty Thor.’ His language is really flamboyant and I pretend I’m Shakespeare.”

And on March 17, The Philadelphia Inquirer of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ran the article “ZAP! POW! Comics Sweep Princeton”

by Dean Pope, with Lee quoted as saying: “We could have a plumber with superpowers and it would sell.”

Lee said he felt “Like a father” to his comic creations.

“I pretend I’m Shakespeare,” he said.

He said sometimes new characters get slipped in by the artists. “I marvel that everyone doesn’t copy our method.

“We’re so ‘in’ that we haven’t reached the general public yet.”

of all, Jumpin’ Jack Kirby himself wrote the script—in addition to doing the layouts—for Nick Fury’s S.H.I.E.L.D. thriller in Strange Tales #148!

(You’ll be amazed at learning that the King’s writing style has the same power and punch as his spellbinding artwork!)”

Also on this Bullpen page: “...King Photo from the March 29, 1966 Daily Californian.

Kirby walked in, after having finished an hour-long story conference with Stan. By way of an exit line, Jack was heard to mutter: ‘Well, we just pol-

ished off a few holocausts, and a cataclysm or two! Now, I’ll go out and relax by dreaming up a few simple disasters!’ Somehow, there’s

more truth than poetry to that sentiment. Ever wonder what it’s like to illustrate galactic wars, battles between gods, and cosmic adventures day after day?”

On March 10, Stan Lee speaks to a group of about 70 students at Princeton University. In this earliest known recording of Lee speaking in public, he announces that Steve Ditko has just left Marvel, while simultaneously giving Kirby credit: “Now we just lost the artist that does Doc Strange, Steve Ditko, who also does Spider-Man. [audiThe press continues to cover Marvel this ence gasps and hisses] I feel as badly month. On March 29, issue #16 of The Daily about it as you do. He’s a very... peculiar Californian Weekly Magazine (an independent, guy. [audience laughs] He’s a great talstudent-run newspaper that covered both the UC ent, but he’s a little eccentric.

Berkeley campus and the city of Berkeley) is pub“Anyway, I haven’t spoken to this lished, with the article “A Fantastic Five Years of guy for over a year. He mails in the Marvel Age of Comics” by Tom Collins, where work, and I write the stories, and that’s Lee’s praise for Kirby continues: “Jack Kirby the way he liked to work it. One day he is one of the greatest artists in the world just phoned and he said, ‘That’ll be it.’ today. The best artists are storytellers and So that was it. This is the acid test now, dramatists. You can’t be a good artist without because he was such a popular artist. I having a feeling for the story as well. Jack think that we’ve managed to find people frequently has as many ideas for a story as I to replace him, where those ‘boos’ will do. If I’m really short on time he even writes change to a chorus of cheers. I know the stories sometimes...” how it is; you get sentimental about an Is Stan referring only to Strange Tales #148, artist, especially one as good as he, and a story Kirby had just dialogued, and would still I feel the same way. But at any rate, be fresh on Lee’s mind? Or is this a more general we’re so tight, and we’re so limited with recollection of other dialoguing, dating back to men, that if we lose one artist, it’s a Fantastic Four #6 or before? major crisis.

Of Marvel’s art stockpile, Lee says he has “Now I give an artist the synopsis, The Silver Surfer still retains Kirby’s original motivations in Fantastic Four #55. plans for it to be hung in a gallery and auctioned and he draws this for himself, and I off to benefit the USO or Red Cross: “I don’t want this to end up have no idea what I’m going to get. Sometimes it comes out so like the stuff being sold for $2 a page in some of the fan magafar removed from what I expect. Now a guy like Kirby who’s zines. every bit as imaginative as I am—I love to say this for public “I write a book a day, four days a week, and it’s a full day’s consumption—probably a lot more; we discuss a plot, he throws job. There is just not enough space for more minutes or hours. in an idea, and I do, and a few days later I get the drawings The quality is improving slowly. They’re better now than they back, and by God they... for instance, we have this new thing, the were a year ago, and they were better than they were five years Silver Surfer.” ago. Maybe if we all live long enough...

After the audience laughs and applauds: “I’ll have to tell Jack “Ideas are really the easiest part. Helps to have characters about that, because it was as much of a surprise to me as it was that are realistic. If you know [Captain America] is sorry Bucky to you. He brought the strip in, and all we had discussed was died in World War II and he feels responsible, and if you know Galactus! And I said, ‘Who’s this naked nut running around...?’ he doesn’t have a normal social life, all you have to do is think He says, ‘That’s the Silver Surfer!’ ‘Jack, you’ve gotta be kidding!’ of his characters and problems and a million ideas come.”

He says, ‘No, Stan, he rides the air currents of space!’”

With continued stories, Lee feels: “We find we can get better Posted by Sean Howe online at https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=A73KehrmpOU 73

or something like that. [Sales] had picked up, but we didn’t know about it... They don’t tell you, ‘Boy, this is terrific.’... In those days, there were no royalties. They used to reprint all our stuff, and we never got a dime for it.”

June 9, 1990: Don Heck interviewed by Will Murray

During this period, Jack Kirby draws the back-up story in Thor #133, and the lead story in #134—the first Thor stories to jettison the usual “Written by Stan Lee, Art by Jack Kirby” credit, in favor of the more general “A Stan Lee-Jack Kirby Production” style byline.

John Buscema is lured to Marvel by Stan Lee, and gets indoctrinated to the Marvel style by working over Jack Kirby layouts on the “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” story in Strange Tales #150, which Kirby provides at this point. Buscema also comes aboard Tales to Astonish to do the full art in #85, and potentially comes across in Lee’s mind as being much easier to work with than Kirby.

Mid-1966

Fan interest in Marvel history is peaking. In a low circulation fanzine, Stan is asked, “Did you create or help create all of your heroes? Are there any that someone else completely created?”

His response doesn’t give the full story: “I created all of them for the past ten years. In the ‘Golden Age,’ other people helped—such as Carl Burgos who created the Human Torch 27 years ago.”

[top] Kirby in the Marvel offices, no earlier than March 1966, and possibly later, taken at the same time as the other 1966 shots of Lee in this chapter. In early 1966, Kirby creates a character loosely based on the legendary Christian king Prester John for Fantastic Four #54 [left]. He’s seemingly forgotten about at the story’s conclusion, but Kirby remembers the “evil eye” weapon he designed for him, and uses it for one of his New Gods concept drawings in mid-1966 [above]. © Jack Kirby Estate.

Stan Lee interviewed by the ComiClub of America, Inside Info #1, published July 1966 by G.E. Publications

stories if they are longer. There can be more character development, and subplots. We don’t do it to save time or because it’s easier, or even to sell the next issue. Our fans are wonderful that way. They’d buy the next issue anyway.

“There really isn’t that big a comic book craze, it’s a Marvel craze. The success of the TV show accounts for Batman’s popularity. People write ‘your stuff is reading matter, they’re comic books.’ Marvel comics are one thing, and all the others are lumped into a single pot.”

April 1966

As he writes the letter column for Fantastic Four #55, Lee announces the results of the Silver Surfer’s origin contest, and says his actual origin will be a combination of all of them.

In preparing the Strange Tales #149 letter column, Lee runs a missive from a letter writer who attends UC Berkeley (and has “a large number of friends” who also like Dr. Strange), praising Stan for finally putting Dr. Strange back on the cover of #146. That is Ditko’s final issue, with the title “The End—At Last!” It’s a toss-up whether that title is chosen by Lee (because he is finally done dealing with Ditko), or by Ditko (who is finally leaving Marvel and Lee behind).

This month, Fantastic Four #52 is published, where (in a message written back in January) Stan publicly announces on the Bullpen Bulletins page: “It’s hail and farewell to sturdy Steve Ditko! Spider-Man #38 and Strange Tales #146 (both now on sale) will mark his final appearances in any Marvel mags!

(Except for the numerous reprints you’ll find in our king-size issues.) Steve recently told us he was leaving, for personal reasons. After all these years, we’re sorry to see him go, and we wish the talented guy success with his future endeavors.”

Those reprints Lee mentions are a sticking point for his artists, particularly in light of Marvel’s low page rates of the time: DON HECK:

Kirby provided layouts for Don Heck on the “SHIELD” story in Strange Tales #147. On the bottom right corner, Kirby left this note for Heck: “Dum-Dum, Fury and Sitwell are blown up by jet of air from hole -- adjust perspective so Dum-Dum is closest -- Fury is smaller and Sitwell smallest so they seem to be blown out in succession instead of together -- Fury yells “Wind is ‘In’ this year, boys -- and you’re out!” Though Stan chose not to use Jack’s dialogue suggestion, Jack probably didn’t read the published issue, and assumed it was used—which could explain why Jack mistakenly claimed dialogue credits in interviews later in life.

“It didn’t start to pick up... until ’64, ’65, and then it didn’t go up that much, like a couple bucks a page 74

“[FF #1] feels an awful lot more like Jack’s earlier work than anything that Stan had done to that date. So I find it very difficult to believe that Jack did not have input into the creation of the characters prior to that synopsis, whenever it was composed.

And, also, I have the fact that I talked to Stan many times, and he told me—and he said it in print in a few places—that he and Jack had sat down one day and figured out what the Fantastic Four would be...”

Mark Evanier:

2010: Mark Evanier’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

Wally Wood launches his self-published prozine witzend #1; with its promise of no editorial interference, Kirby and Ditko both contribute to the first issue. Over at Charlton Comics, Ditko is drawing Captain Atom #83. Its back-up story, also by Ditko, introduces an updated version of the Golden Age hero The Blue Beetle, in rollicking adventures reminiscent of Steve’s work on Spider-Man. This Beetle receives his own series in 1967, but the entire Charlton “Action Heroes” line of comic books will cease publication in 1968, as Ditko departs for DC Comics.

The Marvel super-hero Lancer paperbacks are released at

Fall 1966 publicity shot, dated by the cover stat for Strange Tales #151 and a copy of Thor #136 shown.

As TV’s Batman conquers the airwaves, on May 23, Joe Simon files a claim for rights to Captain America in New York state court.

And sometime between late 1965 and now, Lee brings his synopsis for Fantastic Four #1 into the office and shows it to Roy Thomas.

“I don’t have a specific memory of what was on it, but I do remember it was the plot to the first half of Fantastic Four #1. There’s no reason to believe it’s not the same thing Marvel ran in that FF anniversary issue [#358], but I couldn’t swear to it.”

Roy Thomas:

2017. Source: https: //www.newsarama.com/37360-the-enduring-mysteries-of-fantastic-four-1.html

“...I saw Stan’s plot for Fantastic Four #1, but even Stan would never claim for sure that he and Jack hadn’t talked the idea over before he wrote this.”

September 1997: Roy Thomas interviewed by Jim Amash, published in The Jack Kirby Collector #18

Skeptics question why this is the only debut-issue synopsis that’s ever surfaced. Why would Stan save this one, but no others for Hulk #1, Amazing Fantasy #15, etc.? Roy Thomas offered me more thoughts on its lineage: “If Stan’s intent had been to undercut any Kirby claims to having co-created the Fantastic Four, he’d have had me pass that synopsis on to interested fanzines, or I could’ve published it myself a year or so later in Alter Ego [Vol. 1] #10. But, of course, at that time, it wasn’t occurring either to Stan or to Jack to claim such credit. They were both too busy just getting the stories done and collecting their paychecks. Nobody out there in fandom was hounding Stan or Jack to learn about the birth-pangs of Marvel Comics. Even I, who was on staff and was interested in such things, was way too busy to think much about it at the time.

“I’m sure other scenarios of what might have happened can be easily devised by any thoughtful reader—none of which need involve the existence of a nefarious plot by Stan Lee to write retroactive synopses for Fantastic Four stories in order to rob Jack Kirby of due credit. Having experienced Stan and the way he worked from mid-1965 on, it’s inconceivable to me that he would have bothered to concoct a ‘retroactive synopsis,’ least of all in the early ’60s.”

September 2018: Roy Thomas e-mail to John Morrow

One conspiracy theory is that, by 1966, Martin Goodman is considering selling his company, and knows he needs to secure its assets to make any sale happen. This is another reason some people are skeptical about the authenticity of the FF #1 synopsis, as the timing of its appearance seems opportune for Goodman’s goals.

But whether you choose to accept its legitimacy, the bigger question still remains: Do Kirby and Lee have a creative conference prior to any synopsis being typed?

Kirby pencil art from Fantastic Four #61. This is the caliber of penciling Jack was producing at this point.

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the practice in those days. When I left Timely, all of my work was left with them.”

this time, reprinting Kirby Fantastic Four, Thor, and Hulk stories.

Ironically enough, the Fantastic Four collection quotes the 1966 New York Herald Tribune article. Also, Donruss’ Marvel Super-Heroes set of 66 trading cards is released, using Kirby art. The artists are not paid for either the paperbacks or bubble gum cards. So it’s not surprising that Jack Kirby would draw his first New Gods concepts at this point, but not show them to Marvel.

At this juncture, Kirby also does his final layouts for another artist—in this case, his friend Jim Steranko, for the “S.H.I.E.L.D.” strip in Strange Tales #153.

On July 23, Jack Kirby gives the keynote speech at the New York Comicon, offering some insight into his work: “I’ll make The

Thing tragic and I’ll make The Hulk kind of frustrated because he is a hulk and can’t be anything else, and it kind of keeps the story pot boiling. So there, actually, is the core of what keeps the artist going, and I think that’s what keeps the writer going too because the writer and the artist and the editors are men who can see things in a wry or a dry manner.

“Recently, we tried to raise the level of the story to where the format of the story becomes a little more complex and science-fictiony and we find that too much food for thought leaves you static on one particular page, and that’s not as satisfying as running through the entire magazine without being able to grasp the story in its entirety. So experimenting in this fashion, we find that there are limits there and so we simplify the stories more, and we’ve simplified the gadgets a little more and we’ve given them more intricate designs, but we’ve given it to you so it’s palatable and it’s entertaining and you would still like us.”

July 1966

This month, as part of his effort to secure his company for a possible sale, Martin Goodman offers Myron Fass $6,000 for the copyright on his Captain Marvel character, but Fass refuses.

August 1966

Kirby signs an amended affidavit for Goodman’s legal statement on August 17, while Joe Simon, attempting to ride the wave of comic book popularity, releases Fighting American #1 and The Spirit #1 at Harvey Comics. Both feature reprints Between Joe Simon’s reputation for hits, and Harvey’s strong distribution, Goodman was worried about the “Harvey Thriller” line crowding them off newsstands. and new material. Simon also oversees the first of the Harvey Thriller line of super-hero comics.

By this time, the word is out that Joe Simon is developing a line Marvel’s popularity is even more evident this month as of super-heroes for Harvey Comics to publish, to directly compete Fantastic Four #55 is published, which includes Marvel T-shirt and with Marvel. On July 12, to help his chances of selling the company poster ads, using Kirby art to sell merchandise (without paying the and to fight Joe Simon’s Captain America lawsuit, Goodman artist for its use). convinces Kirby to sign a legal statement to supAs Stan writes the Bullpen Bulletins port Marvel’s case, lest Kirby get cut out of any page that will appear in Fantastic Four #59, settlement Simon would receive. Kirby’s statement, he mentions Jack’s July 1966 NY Comicon which shades what we now know of how Captain appearance and speech in glowing terms.

America was created, says: “I was hired as an artist Kirby returns the favor, writing an essay to work full-time on a regular salary to help create which would be published in the Fall: comic magazines and characters… Discussions

“While working on Captain America for Marvel Comics in the dawning ‘forties,’ I was producing at a furious rate. I remember slowing down only once, when a young rapscallion, peering into my cubicle, suggested that I show more of Cap’s home life, his aged, kindly mother, his wicked Aunt Agatha, and the stark, heart-rending background of Cap’s early years.

‘Begone!’ I cried, sorely put to drubbing him.

‘Take off and become an editor or something!’

Well, by golly, he did. But before he got the name Stan Lee on his office door, I was busily engaged elsewhere with the Boy Commandos, Newsboy Legion, Sandman, Manhunter, and other features.

“Returning to Marvel Comics was like re-entering the Halls of Ivy. In charge of comics was that young rascal, and now, a bit of an older rascal, Stan Lee. We now share ideas, laughs, and stubby cigars.”

took place in the old McGraw Hill offices practically every day on the basic creation of characters… there were sketches made of the characters and their costumes… We first drew the Captain America shield… as a tricornered shield, and there was a discussion as to whether it should be circular…

The discussions were primarily between Joe Simon and myself in the Timely office. This was the beginning of our partnership...

“I suggested the use of a sidekick whom we named Bucky… All of this work was part of my regular duties for Timely… All of the work that we did together was done in the Timely offices, in fact, all of my work was done there… The general outlines for Captain America we worked out together.

“I do not have any of my sketches of the original Captain America, Bucky and other illustrations because I never took them from the office. I felt whatever I did for Timely belonged to Timely as was

1966: The Merry Marvel Messenger #1

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September 1966

ee wrote ’s a , Stan L or #139 ut Vince Collett h T m o age fr y abo re of this p ger Sol Brodsk had much mo in rg a em ana ack 66, in th Production M this inking. J g. 3/3.”

Nov. 19 to ed ke p Around ing comment V.C. ruin ! Should be li l, o “S w l: izable the follo the last pane e recogn f inking o e figures wer th -il a et d

On September 1, The Marvel Super Heroes cartoon show debuts on TV, using actual art from comics, with no payment to the artists.

Robert Lawrence of Gantray-Lawrence, which produces the show, accompanies Stan Lee on a college lecture circuit tour to promote the series during the Fall.

More unpaid reuse of artwork becomes known, when Fantastic Four #57 is published this month, sporting a back cover ad for Aurora model kits, featuring Kirby art of Hulk and Captain America.

And it doesn’t take a mathematician to crunch the numbers and see that Marvel is profiting greatly from the MMMS fan club that features other unpaid art reuses: Comic books are becoming so popular with college students that over 50,000 of them now pay a dollar each to belong to a comic book “society” with chapters on more than a hundred campuses.

Stan Lee, who created for Marvel Comics many of the heroes currently popular with college students, has lectured on the subject at New York University, Bard College, Columbia University, and Princeton University.

At Bard, he drew a bigger audience than President Eisenhower.

September 24, 1966: Dayton Daily News (Dayton, OH) article titled “Comic Books Scholarly Pastime?”

This month’s issue of Esquire magazine also features an article about Marvel Comics that brings older, more sophisticated readers’ “Silver Spider” and original Captain Marvel artist C.C. Beck produces Fatman #1 at this time, to help Lightning attention to the company.

Comics jump on Marvel’s bandwagon, with little success.

It mentions Lee speaking at Princeton, Bard, and New York University, and that Marvel has sold 50,000 T-shirts and 30,000 sweatshirts.

the different companies—but, when it comes to the opinion of the pros themselves—when it comes to naming the ARTIST’S ARTIST, there isn’t even a contest! Every time the conversation here at the Bullpen gets around to artwork (and what ELSE is there to talk about?), you should hear the top men in the field lower their voices when the name of King Kirby comes up. It’s generally agreed that, when you talk of super-hero illustration; of action drawing; of imaginative conceptions; of dynamic, double-barreled drama; Marvel’s many-faceted master simply has no peer! There is hardly a pro pencil-pusher in the field today who hasn’t been influenced by Jolly Jack’s memorable masterpieces—or by the constantly shattering impact of his creativity. Don’t be embarrassed, Jack—this is just Stan’s cornball way of telling you that it’s been a ball all these years, pal—and the best is still ahead!”

This month, Joe Simon sues Marvel Comics in the New York State Supreme Court claiming that, because Joe is the creator of the character, Martin Goodman’s use of Captain America is unfair competition, and a misappropriation of his state property rights.

As a hedge against losing the copyrights, Marvel reportedly has Kirby design a new look for Captain America, in case they have to radically revamp the character to retain ownership of it.

October 1966

As mentioned in his July keynote speech, Kirby takes a step back from the cosmic this month to draw “This Man, This Monster” in Fantastic Four #51. This late September-October period marks where Lee and Kirby begin conducting more business by phone instead of in-person, and Kirby stops coming into the office as regularly. This is based on what Lee is writing for the Bullpen Bulletins for Amazing Spider-Man #48: “If STAN (The Man) LEE and JACK (King) KIRBY happen to meet in the street, they might not recognize each other! The two characters have been so busy lately that they haven’t seen each other in weeks. Can you imagine producing sensational strips like theirs by collaborating over the phone? Well, you better believe it!”

Stan would’ve written this around November 14, and if they haven’t seen each other in weeks at the time of this writing, that times out to around FF #51’s creation.

The chill in their relationship is evident by the timing of this glowing notice in the Bullpen Bulletins page for April 1967 cover-dated releases (including FF #61), penned this month by Stan Lee: “Jolly JACK KIRBY’s ears must be really burning. Every comics mag fan has his own personal favorite among all the artists employed by all Kirby’s presumed new Cap design.

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November 1966

were copying and keeping copies of Jack Kirby’s stuff, because we figured, if whatever he does is going to be the standard, then we might as well make a copy of it... he was absolutely revered, and we considered him our team captain and our leader. He was our guy. He was the best guy on the team.”

Kirby draws art for the January 1967 Captain Nice TV show, while IN magazine’s November 1966 issue features a one-page custom comic strip, showcasing Marvel characters drawn by Gil Kane, and promoting the Merry Marvel Marching Society.

December 1966

Circa 2011: Interview with John Romita, by Aaron Sultan

This copying of Kirby’s pencil pages continues through his entire 1960s tenure at Marvel, as Marie Severin makes thermo-fax copies of “The Monster” from Chamber of Darkness #4 in August 1969 when Jack’s pencils arrive in the mail—she kept and shared them with me for Jack Kirby Collector #13 in 1996.

The year closes with Stan making a Christmas Eve personal appearance to draw the twenty winning entries in a contest his local dry cleaner is running.

This month, Marie Severin draws, and Stan Lee dialogues, Tales to Astonish #93. The issue features the Silver Surfer as a guest-star in the Hulk story. It’s credited as “Presented

by Smilin’ Stan Lee and Mirthful Marie Severin”, and is the only use up to this point of the Surfer outside of Kirby’s Fantastic Four.

Marie’s art is very Kirbyesque here, helped by Frank Giacoia’s inking. Knowing the Surfer’s popularity, and that things are strained between Kirby and himself, is this Stan trying out Marie Kirby’s Captain Nice poster art. to do an eventual solo-Surfer book, without Kirby’s involvement? If so, it’s doubtful she would’ve played along with such a plan, had she known of it:

Week of Dec. 23–29: Long Island Entertainer, print ad

In a much more savvy marketing move, Lee soon writes his first “Stan’s Soapbox” editorial, which would appear three months later in Amazing Spider-Man #49. This is a big step in further elevating his position as the figurehead of Marvel Comics, as Stan will allude to just three months later: “I like to think of this whole thing as an advertising campaign...”

“[Marie] would never kid with Jack Kirby. She admired him too much. And if it came to a choice between who she would root for, she would root for Jack Kirby against Marvel. She was that kind of person.

“Let me tell you, whenever Jack Kirby’s stuff came in, we would all make copies. There weren’t even any Xeroxes then... we were doing thermo-fax, which was a terrible copying system.

We had to feed the pages into the machine, and it had to go through the roller and come out, the whole page of art... there was a lot of heat.

“One time Larry Lieber put a Jack Kirby page in there and it stuck, and the page was burned in half. And Larry had to lightbox whatever was left and recreate the page... he was dying because he thought he had committed a capital crime.

“Everybody in the office would make copies of Jack Kirby’s pages... I was trying to save every pencil panel that I could, and a lot of other people, including Marie, John Romita:

March 3, 1967: “Will Success Spoil Spider-Man,” on New York’s WBAI-FM radio, transcribed in The Stan Lee Universe, 2011.

ky, at Stan’s l production manager Sol Brods ” sent to Jack for reference by Marve -to-issue, right down to the “F4NY A stat from Fantastic Four #65 issue rod hot y’s Johnn in spot differences from Fantastic Four #68 [right], request. Stan knew readers would page d) unuse , (sadly this for come in handy license plate number. It would an inking tryout page. which was saved to be used as

78

h Stan es, wit produc adio drama. k r o Y r New range adio in Dr. St ed and WBAI r oval, a is form ics. r p l p a a ic m m e o h Lee’s C C l d an arve or ct Film on buying M wsuit f a a Perfe l s t w h e n s sig iles A Americ f n in sets it a o t p Ca al. e Sim any de But Jo to renew the affect ht , could s h ic the rig ic m h o ight, w ys DC C ed art copyr Co. bu t l in a o p n p a io Nat tino is , opening the Kinney Infan es rmine f retir rn. if h c and Ca S y retu k b c a ir J K . r le o ib t c s e s o ir d or a p door f

the premise that the super-hero has his superpower, and then keep everything else as realistic as possible? If I were Spider-Man, for example, wouldn’t I still have romantic problems, financial problems, sinus attacks, and fits of insecurity? Wouldn’t I be a little embarrassed about appearing in public in a costume? We decided to let our super-heroes live in the real world.

“What we were doing was creating fairy tales for adults. I think we were responsible for the Pop Art bit. College students started reading our books back in 1961, and eventually the word got around that comic books were popular again. But the average newspaper feature writer didn’t read the new comic books, and so what books did he think of? Batman and Superman. But only kids read Batman and Superman. Marvels are for intelligent people.”

January 1967

Future movie critic Roger Ebert pens an article titled “New Comic Book Craze: A Super Hero With Problems?” for the Chicago Sun-Times Special magazine, and it is syndicated in papers across the United States, giving Lee an ever-widening scope of influence: “For years, we had been producing comics for kids, because they were supposed to be the market. One day, out of sheer boredom, we said—let’s do something we would like. So we tried to get rid of the old clichés. Comics were too predictable. Why not accept

January 7, 1967: Express and News (San Antonio, TX)

In the article, Ebert mentions that Stan “and his artist” created the FF, meaning either Ebert knows his Marvel history well, or Lee makes a point of mentioning Kirby while being interviewed, and Roger (or an editor) neglects to name-drop Kirby.

At this same time, Lee writes his “Stan’s Soapbox” column for July 1967 cover-date releases, and includes a letter by future Kirby assistant Mark Evanier, who gives ranks to members of the MMMS.

TURNiNG POiNT! February 1967

This is the point where Jack Kirby draws Fantastic Four #67— the final issue of the “Him” storyline, where Stan changes the direction Jack is heading with the plot. Kirby, inspired by episodes of the Outer Limits television series and the 1955 film Forbidden Planet, is giving his take on Ayn Rand’s school of Objectivist thought—something Steve Ditko subscribes to. But Lee turns it into something different.

Mike Gartland:

astic Four Splash page from Fant

“The story that Jack wanted: ‘Create a superior human and he just might find you inferior enough to get rid of,’ became through Lee another ‘bad guys try to take over world and get their comeup-

” saga.

#66, the start of the “Him

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Detail from the final page of Fantastic Four #67. The look of the “Him” character is inspired by a race of beings called “Metrons” (a name Kirby will use later at DC Comics) from the Star Trek episode “Arena” [see photo at top].

© Paramount.

Aftermath

1967

by Kirby (done for a proposed split-book like Tales of Suspense, but never used), with the credits listed as “A Stan (the Man) Lee and Jack (King) Kirby Powerhouse Presentation!”.

The issue also includes “This Is A Plot?”, a satirical story both drawn and written by Kirby—the first time Jack is given a “writer” credit at Marvel. It includes a brief caricature of Roy Thomas taking notes at the farcical plotting conference between Jack and Stan.

Since Kirby has stopped adding new ideas and characters at this point, it makes me question whether this story’s title is his editorial comment about Lee’s plot contributions.

This month, Marvel is preparing Marvel Collector’s Item Classics #10, a reprint comic presenting stories from the first few years of Marvel’s super-hero comics. It contains one unused Ditko Dr. Strange page which is dusted off Sol Brodsky’s shelf, and used as a new pinup in the issue.

A reference stat from Fantastic Four #66 sent to Kirby, for use when creating the final chapter of the “Him” epic.

pance’ story... Unfortunately, Stan considered Jack’s input on these stories as ‘plots,’ whereas Jack thought of them as ‘stories,’ meaning that he, Jack, was the writer, not Stan.”

April 1999: “The Last Straw?” by Mike Gartland, published in Jack Kirby Collector #24

Having had the wind knocked out of his sails, after this issue, Jack stops contributing notable new ideas and characters through the rest of his Fantastic Four run.

By now, with no more layouts for other artists to spread the Kirby look throughout the line, Jack concentrates mainly on Thor, Fantastic Four, and the Captain America strip in Tales of Suspense. For the ToS #92 letter column he assembles this month, Stan chooses a note from a letter writer who comments on the declining amount of Kirby art he’s been seeing at Marvel of late, with the response: “...we’ve been trying not to overwork the King! However...

Jolly Jack himself did this month’s Captain America—just to teach Marveldom never to grow complacent about anything! And wait’ll you see the , al #5 (1967) , in FF Annu peerless parody plot an issue ck Ja d an y.

Stan t by Kirb he did in the great first with dialogue and ar issue of Brand Echh... we’ll always make sure that the world of art doesn’t go Kirbyless for too long!”

With his time freed up, Jack draws Fantastic Four Annual #5. On the two-page pin-up included by Kirby, there’s a billboard where Lee adds the message, “Jack, You’re still the greatest!—Sentimental Stan”, in an apparent attempt to soothe hurt feelings. That Annual includes a solo Silver Surfer story

A “new” Ditko pin-up appears, over a year after Steve leaves Marvel.

March 1967

Around this time, Jack Kirby draws Thor #144, with the first half of his final “Tales of Asgard” story, entitled “The Beginning of the End.” The issue’s strikingly detailed original Kirby cover is subsequently rejected by Lee. Kirby also draws Fantastic Four #68, the first issue where he begins drawing on smaller size 10" x 15" art boards, reduced from the prior 12" x 18" size.

Detail in his art is affected, and initially the lettering is too large and tends to crowd and overpower the panels.

Between assignments, Jack manages to be interviewed with Stan on March 3 on New York’s WBAI-FM radio, by host Mike Hodel.

Stan uses the word “we” here instead of “I” throughout this interview, no doubt due to the fact that Jack is there with him, and in light of the New York Herald Tribune article—a likely reason Stan thought to include Jack here, rather than do a solo interview.

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look of for making decisions about the finished Stan Lee, as art director, was responsible redraw women’s faces on Kirby’s Romita having to n additio In books. the 1960s Marvel to the Fantastic Four #65) was looking too similar work, he felt at one point that Alicia (in sent to Jack for reference.

Invisible Girl. So the above example was

When asked if Captain America will get involved in the Vietnam conflict, Kirby replies: “Well, that’s Stan

Lee’s department, and he can answer that. The editor always has the last word on that.”

Of the Marvel heroes’ “hang-ups” and problems, Lee responds: “It was just the idea of trying to make them realistic... trying to write them a little bit better.

“I’ve said this so often that it’s almost becoming Fantastic Four #66: Stan’s notes say to shorten Alicia’s skirt, and that, “Sue’s hair might be good this way always --”. Lee also complains a cliché with me, but what we try to do is, we know that all of Kirby’s females look identical, drawing a simplified head and writing: “All gals J.K. draws! How about model sheet for him?” that these super-hero stories are really fairy tales.

The fun with follicles didn’t stop with female characters, as evidenced by this stat from Thor #145 sent to Jack as well [top right].

They’re fairy tales for older people. We think of them priceless answer. Jack said that, ‘They’re not authentic. If they that way. We don’t really write them for young kids. were authentic, they wouldn’t be authentic enough.’ But he draws “We try to have the characters speaking in a realistic way. them the way they should be, not the way they were.”

To me, I feel that this gives it a great deal of interest. You have Did Kirby do a “cram session” to get ready for Thor? Not exactthe combination of the fantasy mixed with the most realistic ly: “Not homework in the sense that I went home one night and I really story you can get, and, well, we’ve found sort of a winning comconcentrated on it. All through the years, certainly, I’ve had a kind of bination.” affection for any mythological type of character, and my conception of what they should look like. And here Stan gave me the opportunity to draw one, and I wasn’t going to draw back from really letting myself go. So I did, and, like, the world became a stage for me there, and I had a costume department that really went to work. I gave the Norse characters twists that they never had in anybody’s imagination. And somehow it turned out to be a lot of fun, and I really enjoyed doing it.

“Hercules had Olympian powers, which certainly are considered on an equal basis with the old powers of the Norse gods, and therefore we felt that they were an equal match for each other,

“A prizefighter can win the championship of the world, and go home and be very inadequate at home, inadequate enough to have a lot of family trouble.”

Interestingly, Kirby will briefly depict a scene that extrapolates on this comment in one of his first 1970s DC comics, Forever People #1, where the world’s heavyweight champion boxer feels insignificant because Superman is around.

Lee addresses Marvel’s pioneering use of mythological characters: “You’ve got the right guy here, because I always say that Jack is the greatest mythological creator in the world. When we kicked Thor around, and we came out with him... I thought he would just be another book. And I think that Jack has turned him into one of the greatest fictional characters there are.

In fact, I should let Jack say this, but just on the chance that he won’t, somebody was asking him how he gets his authenticity in the costumes and everything, A heavyweig and I think he gave a ht champ’s ina dequ 1970 Forever Peop

le #1 for DC

plot conference Jack’s notes for the #68–71, written on for Fantastic Four se of Tales of Suspen the back of a stat this meager list #93. Kirby stretched y. into a four-issue stor

acy shows in Kirby’s Comics.

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and by rights they should contend with each other.

“I found out that villains seem to have their limits, too, because I came up with a few on a galactic scale, and soon reversed my direction.”

“And not only that, we felt it was disrespectful to Galactus to even destroy him in any manner, so we had to just respectfully find a way for him to leave and then go on to another adventure, because we couldn’t even touch him, I believe. And there might have been an outcry if we had.”

“The trouble with Jack is, he’s too darned imaginative, Stan Lee wa s enamored (deservedly and he gets himself with John Ro so), and ch mita’s female ose to have Agent 13 fa faces him rework ces in Jack absolutely trapped. the Sharon ’s Tales of Ca Su rter/ from issue #92. This re spense stories, like th The last thing he is one ference page was sent to Jack. did, and finally we both said we have to stop and retrench a little, is he had Thor fighting a whole planet. Jack came up with an idea, a fellow named Ego, who is a living planet in—what was he, a bioverse instead of a universe?”

“At any rate, he appeared in The Fantastic Four, and then he went off to another universe, and that was the end of Galactus. But we didn’t leave him TV Guide from March 26, 1966, featuring Adam West as Batman. there. In Thor, which is another publication of ours, and has no relationship to The Fantastic Four except that we publish them both, what we did was, when Thor was finishing off with this living planet that he had battled, on his way back to Earth he passed Galactus, who was wandering around in the sky up there. And Galactus was on his way to meet the fellow, Ego, who was the living planet, and so forth. We just kind of left it at that, and someday, when we run out of plots, we’ll have the fight between Galactus and Ego.” With Kirby sitting next him, Lee describes their plotting system: “If we’re sitting around dreaming up a plot, Jack might say to me, ‘Gee, you know, we haven’t used the Silver Surfer for a while.

How would it be if he was doing this, that, or the other?’ Or I might remember, ‘Gee, what about Galactus?’ Or whoever.

“These things aren’t always planned. They grow. Now, what happened was, I think, Jack, the first Inhuman that we brought in was Gorgon, wasn’t it? Did we have a story, ‘The Gentleman’s Name Is Gorgon’? And he was a fellow who looked a little like a

“Yes, and not just presenting the reader with a living planet.

There had to be cause and effect. So we made him into a multiple virus, which we felt could be accepted, maybe not on a friendly basis, but certainly on a realistic basis, and that was our jumping-off point.

And we went on from there, and he was acceptable to the reader due to the fact that he could contend with Thor on Thor’s level.”

“He was acceptable due to the fact that Jack drew him so well. But the problem was, where did we go from there? After you fight a living planet, you can’t fight a litter bug. So we do have our problems in that respect. Now we have to, we’re trying to humanize these characters again, a little bit, because they’ve been too far out. We’ve had him fight the whole troll empire in Asgard, and he fought—well, in The Fantastic Four, for example, we had a fellow named Galactus who’s practically God. I mean, he could do anything. We realized after Galactus that we’d better take it a little bit easy with these villains, too. In fact, a lot of readers would write in, and they’d say, ‘Where do you go from here? Who’s he going to fight next after that?’”

In Fantastic Four Annual #5, Kirby originally drew Crystal as one of the main characters involved in the action. But Lee chose to have her stay home with the pregnant Invisible Girl, and removed her from Kirby’s art pages.

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In describing the time lag between creating a comic and it seecentaur or someing print, Lee gives a timeline: “The script comes into the house thing. He could and it sits around for a while, while it’s proofread and edited, kick his foot very and then it goes out, and the Photostats are made, and the stats hard and he had are colored for the engraver, then the matte maker as far as great power. He I know. I don’t know too much about this, I think Jack knows could shatter more than I do, the printer, and so forth, and the distributor, a mountain by and it’s shipped around the country. It’s just a complicated kicking his foot. thing that takes a long time.”

He started out as The duo then has a friendly argument on-air, continued from a villain. We liked a discussion they were having prior to the show, about whether it’s him so much—I better to shade the truth and keep readers thinking Marvel is the #2 should say, Jack “little guy” publisher compared to corporate giant DC Comics, or to liked him so tout their dominance in the field over their competition. much that he “...I don’t want to lose our image of being the underdogs, kept using him. which we’ve had for years, the little outfit that came along and We figured he we’re challenging the big fellows. The American public being the has to come from way it is, once we’re known to be the leaders, they’re liable to somewhere. We sympathize with another outfit. It’s not that I don’t want us to decided to let him be on top, but I’d like, with the public, I’d like them to think of come from some us as the little, homey, fun outfit that, you know, we’re not quite strange land over that big and successful, we’re not that fat-cattish yet.” in Europe where “Well, we may be number one, but we still retain the type of there are a whole Fantastic Four #46 splash page; does Black Bolt resemble TV’s Batman? character that we’ve always had. If people like you at first, there’s no group of people reason why they shouldn’t continue to like you, unless there’s some like him, and, well, what else could you call them except the sort of a radical change in your makeup. If you’re a good magazine, I Inhumans? imagine that they’ll keep reading you, and your readers will be faithful “Then Jack had to create a whole bunch of Inhumans, and to you... My contention is that it must be the content that the readers I think he did a great job. All these characters are really very like. Although each magazine certainly has an individual personality, imaginative. When it came to doing the leader, we decided, well, which Stan has instilled through his cultivation of the readers, we still there’s no need for them all to be villainous... I think we did have a content that is superior to any of the magazines on the market, have in mind that Black Bolt would eventually be a heroic type. and I, as a reader, would like to read Marvel. And when I do a strip And, again, we always try to give a character a hang-up, so his for Marvel, I feel that I am a reader. I’m certainly never bored with the hang-up is he doesn’t speak. Now, I’m quite sure he’s the first stuff I read in Marvel. And [a reader] may get to dislike anybody... in non-speaking super-hero—or super-villain, we don’t know quite the organization, but that yet—in history. won’t deter [him] from “But, anyway, they evolved. We didn’t sit down one day and buying the magazine. So say, ‘Let’s do a group of Inhumans, and these are their names, I feel that we are number and we’ll present them in this fashion.’

Sol Brodsky (we assume) vents his frustration on the original one, we should be numAs with everything we do, we just sort art to Thor #146: “He did it again!” It appears Jack had a tendency to leave the wrong amount of space for the indicia ber one, and say we’re of stumble into them as we go along... at the bottom of his splash pages. number one, and have no We kick around a plot very, very regrets about it. I feel that loosely and generally, for a story, we should take the critjust discuss it for a few minutes. I icism and use it for our might say, ‘Jack, in the next Thor, own improvement. It’s how about bringing back Galactus as simple as that.” fighting the planet Ego or something?’ And Jack’ll say, ‘Great,’ and “I like to think off he goes. I don’t know where he of this whole thing goes. But off he goes. I don’t see him as an advertising for a week. He comes back a week campaign, and I later and the whole strip is drawn. just know that the public generally likes an And nobody knows what I’m going underdog. And while I’m not sure that we’ll to see on those pages. He may have lose anybody if they think we’ve grown terribly complacent come up with a dozen new ideas, you see. It’ll have something and successful, I think it’s more fun for the reader to think to do with Galactus and Ego. Then I take it, and I write it, on he’s latched onto something that is sort of his little discovery, the basis of what Jack has drawn. He’s broken it down to contiand it’s a little bit far out, and the general public hasn’t quite nuity for me. He’s drawn the whole thing, actually. I put in the discovered it yet, and he can tell his friends about it. But the dialogue and the captions. So he doesn’t know exactly what I’m minute the reader feels everybody knows about Marvel, and going to write, what words I’m going to put in their mouths. I everybody likes Marvel, then I’m just afraid, while they’ll still don’t know what he’s going to draw. The whole thing is virtual read us, as far as their sympathies are concerned, they may try chaos. But somehow, when it gets together, it seems to hold to find something else that nobody has discovered yet to lavish together pretty well, and we kind of like working this way.” their affection on.”

“Not only that, we have to make sure that they’re not involved in “I think what the reader does not like is false humility. The reader by this time knows that Marvel is number one, he knows that Marvel

situations which [will] conflict with the one we want to create at that moment.”

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is superior, he knows that Marvel has quite a number of readers, and if we were to tell him that we are humble and that we’re not quite number one, he won’t believe it. He really will not believe it.”

Hall, University of Chicago, at 4pm Thursday. General admission, 50 cents.

April 21, 1967: Chicago Tribune (Chicago, IL) event listing

March 3, 1967: “Will Success Spoil Spider-Man,” on New York’s WBAI-FM radio, transcribed in The Stan Lee Universe, 2011.

May 1967

On May 7, Lee (dubbed “creator of the Marvel Comics Group”) participates on a televised roundtable discussion titled “The World of the Comic-Strip Hero.”

The discussion centers around how readers identify with super-heroes and anti-heroes, and includes Milton Caniff (creator of Terry and the Pirates and Steve Canyon) and Marshall Stross, press director of the Lutheran Church in America.

Sunday, May 7, 1967 TV listing, The Billings Gazette (Billings, MT), Channel 2, 11am, color. TV show: Directions.

While Stan is out promoting Marvel Comics, Jack is drawing Thor #146, with the new Inhumans back-ups replacing “Tales of Asgard.” These are rumored to be previously-created, unpublished stories meant for the denied Marvel expansion back in early 1965, but Mark Evanier feels they were created specifically to replace “Tales of Asgard.”

This is the first Thor issue to switch to the smaller 10" x 15" art size (vs. the older “large art” size of 12" x 18"). On the original art for the Thor splash page, Marvel’s production manager Sol Brodsky writes this note: “Widen page proportionately to fit—HE DID IT AGAIN!”. Jack is apparently having trouble adjusting to the new page proportions, so staffers have to add 3/16" of extra art to the right side of the page.

Shortly after this interview, on March 15, Dynamo #4 goes on sale, containing the story “The Secret Word Is...” from Tower Comics. This story is credited as script by Ralph Reese, pencils by Joe Orlando, and inks by Wally Wood and Dan Adkins, but Wood oversees the production of all of Tower’s Thunder Agents material.

In this story, Dynamo’s power belt is modified so that, instead of having to manually switch it on and off, he can control it by saying the word “Excelsior.” After the voice control of his belt causes problems, the story ends with the “Excelsior” trigger being deactivated, and Dynamo’s boss proclaiming, “That word’s for the birds...”.

“Excelsior” is the motto of the state of New York (adopted in 1901), and it was also used as a sign-off by humorist Jean Shepherd (known to today’s audiences as the writer and narrator of the holiday film A Christmas Story), on his radio show on station WOR in New York, which ran from 1955–1977.

June 1967

On June 12, Stan Lee appears on television’s The Mike Douglas Show. Per Joe Simon’s book The Comic Book Makers, Adam West is the lead guest, and Stan Lee makes an appearance dressed as Captain America.

Back at the Marvel offices, while writing the Bullpen Bulletins page that would appear in Fantastic Four #69, Stan includes a note wishing Jack and Roz Kirby a happy 25th wedding anniversary. He also gives a reason for the change in Thor back-ups: “We’ve plum run out of Tales of Asgard (in Thor, natch!) so we’re replacing that time-honored feature with another little doozy that’ll really rock the roost!

Starting now—we’re hi-lighting a 5-page featurette starring—hold on, now—none other than the Incomparable INHUMANS!” Surely Kirby doesn’t “run out” of “Tales of Asgard” ideas. And why aren’t those Inhumans stories instead considered for a spot in one of Marvel’s “split” books like Tales to Astonish first, where they’d get a cover feature?

April 1967

As Kirby draws Thor #145 this month, he includes the final “Tales of Asgard” backup, titled “The End.” This represents, for all practical purposes, the end of Kirby contributing new characters and concepts to Marvel, with the artist still producing stellar artwork and engaging plots, but instead stockpiling possible new properties for use at a later date—and for a more generous publisher.

Meanwhile, Stan Lee continues his college speaking tour on April 21 with an event titled “Stan Lee—The Legend in His Own Time”: The editor of Marvel comics, will hold forth in the Cloister Club of Ida Noyes

Kirby and Lee both spoke at the 1967 New York Comicon. Photos by Mark Hanerfeld and Andy Yancus.

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July 1967

The Bullpen Bulletins page of Thor #147, which Lee would’ve written this month, is the earliest use I’ve found of the word “Excelsior” in a Marvel comic.

Next month, Stan will start using it as the official sign-off for his Soapbox column.

It wouldn’t be surprising for Lee to be following what Wallace Wood was producing at his competitor Tower back in March— leading me to wonder if Stan used the term as a jab at Wood for leaving Marvel.

This wouldn’t be the only time Lee adopted an existing phrase for his own promotional use. Gary Friedrich reportedly supplied Stan Lee with the expression “Hang Loose,” and “Whatta Revoltin’ Development” was first heard on William Bendix’s TV show The Life of Riley (1953–1958).

As Lee composes the Tales of Suspense #97 letter column, his jokes are now at his own expense instead of Kirby’s. When a letter writer comments on how Agent 13 remains unnamed, Stan responds: “If a guy seems destined to strike out with a chick, he at least oughtta know the name of the gal he’s losing! So we’ll try to come up with a moniker for her before we forget. (‘Forget what, Stan?’ ‘I dunno, Jack—I forgot!’)?”

By mid-1967, the comics craze starts to fade, as imitators like Dell give up on their super-hero comics. © Dell.

Captain America. Lee opines: “We genuinely believe in what we’re doing. We think it shines through in our work. We accentuate the positive.

“Most people are genuinely good and we look for these plus characteristics. Good eventually does triumph over evil. We do what we can to help it.”

The speaker... was Stan Lee, the affable, 45-year-old, six foot pixie who serves as alter-ego, father confessor and creator for a new brand of super-heroes.

Six years ago, Lee, of Marvel Comics (which boasts a combined circulation of 60 million), got fed up with the restricted milieu in which comic book protagonists had been presented.

The Lee formula is straight out of Kafka.

His super-heroes are real people with all human shortcomings and foibles except one exaggerated super characteristic which permits them to successfully put down the arch enemies of society.

“All a reader must do is accept the fairy tale premise of the Marvel heroes’ super-human abilities. Then we try to make their characterizations as believable as possible. Sub-Mariner, alias Namor, Prince of Atlantis, for example, is actually a pompous egotist who looks down his nose at everyone beneath his station.

“Dialogue is very important. We spend a tremendous amount of time and energy making our characters say things true to their image. The Batman and Robin—Captain Marvel— Flash super-heroes were all stereotypes. They’d all say the same thing to express a similar action.”

August 1967

A description of the new Fall ABC-TV Fantastic Four cartoon, which shows an uncredited Kirby drawing, states: “The characters are the brainchildren of Stan Lee, who is the fearless leader of the Marvel comic book empire. Marvel mags have a circulation of 60 million. The Fantastic Four first fought the forces of foul play in 1961. Now the grade-schoolers and college profs, hippies and government officials are caught up in the fervor.”

Aug. 13, 1967: The Akron Beacon Journal (Akron, OH)

Lee prepares the Tales of Suspense #98 letter column, giving a tongue-in-cheek look at how creative decisions are being made at the time: “...we’ll bring up your swingin’ suggestions about Modok at the next meeting of the Marvel Chiefs of Staff when we all assemble in Executive Session—if we can find an empty table at the delicatessen, that is!”

GiL KANE:

“We used to go out to lunch, and Jack would say about Stan, ‘I’m going to break this guy! I’m gonna do

Sept. 21, 1967: The Indianapolis News (Indianapolis, IN) article (distributed by Pop Scene Syndicate, Inc.)

This month, Kirby begins drawing “When Calls Galactus” for Fantastic Four #74, the first part of a multi-issue story Kirby presumably planned to culminate with the origin of the Silver Surfer. Jack apparently has no idea Stan is prepping a new John Buscemadrawn Silver Surfer comic, as he already has his own Surfer origin in the works.

some work for someone else! I’m gonna start a new company! I’m gonna see this guy run out of business!’ And

then we’d come into the office and Stan would say, ‘Jack, I need you to change something.’ And Jack would comply without question. That’s the way it was, and don’t let anyone bullsh*t you about anything else.”

1998: Gil Kane, from Comic Book Artist #2

September 1967

On September 9, the first of 20 episodes of the Fantastic Four cartoon airs. The show uses Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four issues as the basis for each story (for which Kirby is unpaid), although end credits read “Based upon an idea

by STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY.” Also, America’s Best TV Comics is published in conjunction with ABC television, featuring reprinted Kirby work (also unpaid).

On September 21, a nationally syndicated article

by Dick Zimmerman titled “These Superheroes Are Real People” appears, featuring a photo of Stan Lee, and uncredited Kirby drawings of the Fantastic Four and 85

November 1967

“Jack once told me that he’d deleted a long sequence with The Watcher from an issue of Fantastic Four and later used it in Thor. Also, when he was planning on relating his origin of the Silver Surfer in Fantastic Four, he’d penciled a number of pages before learning that Stan Lee and John Buscema were doing their own origin in the new Silver Surfer comic. Kirby had to drop his plans and he recycled the pages—presumably with many changes—into another story.”

Mark Evanier:

Around now, Kirby draws Thor #152, a story that Lee titles (in large display lettering on the splash page) “The Dilemma of Dr. Blake!” However, Don Blake doesn’t appear anywhere in the issue, and isn’t even referenced. He would appear in #153 however, making me wonder if Jack does two back-to-back issues, and Stan gets them confused when dialoguing them. Or instead, Kirby turned in the first part of the story after telling Lee the Blake subplot would be in the second half; Lee goes ahead and dialogues it; and then Kirby gets carried away and doesn’t get to the character until the following issue. This would be in line with something recalled of the duo:

Summer 2002: “Jack FAQs” in Jack Kirby Collector #36.

October 1967

This month, Marvel Super-Heroes #12 is published, featuring the debut of Marvel’s Captain Marvel (Mar-vell). Kirby reportedly said this idea came from an off-hand conversation he had in the offices, for which he isn’t credited. It’s also a direct shot by Goodman at Myron Fass and his “split” Captain Marvel.

“Stan had a convertible Cadillac. Whenever Jack was in, Stan would drive Jack home and I would hitch a ride because I lived along the way. So I would be in the back seat of Stan’s convertible while he was cutting in and out of Queens Boulevard traffic. And Jack and he were plotting stories. Now I think about four or five times I heard them plot stories. This one sticks in my mind because it’s almost like I was watching Laurel and Hardy.

“These two guys are in the front, two giants, and Jack is saying, ‘Well, Stanley, what are we going to make John Romita:

the kid like? Is he going to be a wizard? Is he going to be a genius? Is he going to be super-powered, or is he going to be a normal kid in the midst of a crazy family?’ Stan would

say, ‘Well, let’s try this,’ and ‘Let’s try that.’ So Stan would go off on a tangent and Jack would be talking about what he thought should happen. Jack would go home and do what he thought Stan was expecting.

“And when Stan got the script, I could hear him saying, ‘Jack forgot everything we were talking about!’

And that’s what led to making slight changes in Jack’s stories, because Stan was under the impression that Jack had forgotten what he said. And Jack was under another impression. So they were hysterical to watch.”

2001: John Romita at the Mighty Marvel Bullpen Reunion, from Alter Ego #16

As evidenced by Jack’s margin notes—“Black Bolt says ‘The Earth is large--there must be..’.”—and Stan’s insertion of an uninked word balloon on another page, they originally planned for Black Bolt to be able to speak in his younger days, during these Inhumans stories that ran as back-ups in Thor #146–152. Their home of Attilan was first mentioned in Kirby’s “Tuk the Caveboy” story back in Captain America Comics #1 in 1941, and Captain Mar-Vell’s Kree storyline ties-in with Kirby’s Thor #146 Inhumans origin.

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In an interview conducted by Ted White circa late 1967 for Castle of Frankenstein #12, Stan Lee gives his most vocal credit yet to Kirby for his creative input: “Well, what we usually do is, with most of the artists, get a rough plot... I mean as much as I can write in longhand on the side of one sheet of paper... who the villain will be, what the problem will be, and so forth. Then I call the artist—whoever’s going to draw the strip... I read to him what I’ve written down, these few notes... and we discuss it. By the time we’re through talking for about 20 minutes, we usually have some plot going. And we talk it out. Lately, I’ve had Roy Thomas come in, and he sits and makes notes while we discuss it. Then he types them up, which gives us a written synopsis.

“Originally—I have a little tape recorder—I had tried taping it, but I found that nobody on the staff has time to listen to the tape again later... so it’s just too much of a waste. But this way he makes notes, types it quickly, I get a carbon, the artist gets a carbon... so we don’t have to worry that we’ll forget what we’ve said.

Then the artist goes home... or wherever he goes... and he draws the thing out, brings it back, and I put the copy in after he’s drawn the story based on the plot I’ve given him.

“Now, this varies with the different artists. Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others.

Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean, I’ll just say to Jack, ‘Let’s let the next villain be Dr. Doom’... or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He’s so good at plots, I’m sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories.

All I do is a little editing... I may tell him that he’s gone too far in one direction or another.

Of course, occasionally I’ll give him a plot, but we’re practically both the writers on the things.”

Discussing the 1966 Strange Tales #148 story Kirby dialogued: “We had both plotted that out before I left, but he put the copy in on that one.

I did a little editing later, but it was his story.

Jack is just fantastic. We’re lucky. Most of our men are good story men. In fact, they have to be. A fellow who’s a good artist, but isn’t good at telling a story in this form... in continuity form... can’t really work for us. Unless we get somebody to do the layouts for him and he just follows the layouts. We’ve done that in the past.”

In describing the process of Kirby doing layouts for other artists, Lee says: “Now, that isn’t always because the artist can’t do layouts.

There are many extenuating circumstances.

For example, an artist who hasn’t done a certain strip may have to do it because suddenly the other artist who is going to do it is ill or something. He isn’t familiar with the story line, and I don’t have time to explain it. Now Jack has been in on most of these things with me.

I can call Jack down. I can say, ‘Jack, make it a 12-page story, and, roughly, this is the plot.’

Jack can go home, and the next day he has the whole thing broken down. He gives it to the artist, and the artist just has to worry about drawing his work on the breakdowns. It’s a lot easier than me spending a whole day discussing the philosophy of the strip with a new artist. Also, there are some fellows who are starting a new strip, who are a little unfamiliar. They’d rather have Jack break it down for them once or twice until they get the feeling of it.”

Saying that Kirby has “the greatest” sense of action, Lee continues his praise of Jack: “...it started as a gag, calling him Jack ‘King’ Kirby, but actually I mean it. I think that this guy is absolutely... in this particular field, he’s the master... I’m probably Jack’s biggest fan.

“We don’t really have any set plan for anything... so you’ll always find changes in our books. One day I’ll wake up in the morning... or Jack will... or any of our artists... or Roy Thomas... or anybody... and say, ‘Hey! Why don’t we do thus and such?’”

Above is the last page of Stan Lee’s Fantastic Four #76 lettering script; the note at bottom says to send a copy to both letterer Artie Simek and Jack Kirby. But Marvel always waited and sent Jack copies of fully lettered stats (sometimes fully inked too) to remind him of each issue’s previous continuity.

Published early 1968: Castle of Frankenstein #12 interview, by Ted White

TURNiNG POiNT! December 1967

So why did Stan rush to have Jack sent a copy of the lettering script right away, along with his designation of where balloons went, instead of waiting until it was lettered? There’s not another example of a lettering script in Jack’s files that we’re aware of.

The next issue of FF would’ve appeared the same time as Silver Surfer #1—the book that so disheartened Jack, since it co-opted his creation. And Stan was already working on that Surfer solo book at the time he was sending this reference to Jack. Was FF #76 late due to changes Marvel insisted Jack make, to keep from circumventing the storyline Stan planned with John Buscema in Silver Surfer #1?

This month, John Buscema draws Silver Surfer #1.

I’m making an assumption that Buscema is working five months prior to the on-sale date; he is a fast penciler, but this is also an oversize issue which would require more time to draw.

Marvel didn’t send stats of every issue to Kirby; just important ones. And FF #75 and #76 have full sets in Kirby’s files, so they must’ve been key for Kirby to have—likely because Stan requires Jack to change his original story for #77.

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reason for the Silver Surfer. Nobody else had a reason for him; I knew the Silver Surfer. Nobody else did.”

“I’ll tell you how I worked with Stan Lee when we worked on The Silver Surfer together... I would go to the city and we would sit there, Stan and I, and discuss a plot for The Silver Surfer, and we’d throw ideas back and forth until finally, at the end of an hour or a half hour, whatever it was, I’d walk out of his office and not think of anything. And when I’d get home, I could remember every scene that we had discussed that particular day. I had that ability.”

John Buscema:

Jan 31, 1971 (Nov. 1971 publication date): Comic & Crypt #5, Jack Kirby and Carmine Infantino interview conducted by Mark Sigal, David Rubin, Paul Hock, and Marc Bigley

Another side-effect of the Kirbyless Silver Surfer #1 is the Lee/ Gene Colan back-up story featuring the origin of his co-creation The Watcher, which is a retelling of the Lee-plotted, Larry Lieber scripted and drawn version in Tales of Suspense #53 in 1964. It’s likely Jack was unaware an origin for the Watcher ever existed without his involvement, and if he saw a copy of Silver Surfer #1 when it was published, he stopped reading before getting to this back-up feature.

This will have consequences down the line.

With certain animosity in the air between them, both men provide short and sweet written answers for the fanzine Excelsior #1. While I can’t ascertain the exact date Stan and Jack wrote these responses, since they are published sometime in 1968, I assume they are composed after the revelation of Silver Surfer #1 being produced without Kirby’s involvement.

2001: John Buscema Panel at Comic-Con: International, Summer 2001, moderated by Mark Evanier

[1970] “...when I discussed the character with John Buscema before he started drawing the book, John said: ‘Well, how do you want me to think of him? You know, what kind of guy?’ And I said: ‘The closer you come to Jesus Christ the better’.”

Stan Lee from his 1970 Changes magazine interview

Silver Surfer #1 is a sore spot for Kirby, as he has no advance notice it is being produced, and Jack certainly has his own plans for the character that now can’t reach fruition. It must’ve been quite a betrayal to find he isn’t chosen to work on his signature solo creation. In the Surfer book, the origin makes a mockery of Jack’s original motivation—a character who doesn’t value human life until Alicia shows him how to. Instead, Norrin Radd tragically loses his true love Shalla Bal on the planet Zenn-La—in hindsight, his reactions in FF #48–50 make no sense. This has to be galling to Kirby, and even more so since he has to jettison his own Surfer plans.

Does Stan select John Buscema as the artist, to avoid more conflicts with an already unhappy Kirby? Or does Lee see that Jack’s plots since FF #74 back in September, are leading toward a different Surfer origin, and want to get his own version in print first?

The timing here is difficult to know for sure.

Does Kirby know before drawing FF #77 that Stan Lee is doing a solo Silver Surfer book without him?

Since he is coming into the Marvel office much less by this point, he may’ve completely finished drawing the issue, and Lee required him to change it after the fact. If Kirby instead reveals his intention of giving the Surfer an origin during their plot conference for #77, Lee has to tell him about the Surfer solo title then. Either way, if Jack meant to stretch his Surfer origin to resolve in FF #78, he would have to rework some of the pages from #77 that originally led into #78 before it is scuttled.

[1971] “Silver Surfer was taken out of my hands. I originated it because I had a

Who conceived the F.F.? You or Jack?

“Both—’twas mainly my idea, but Jack created characters visually.”

Who created The Inhumans, you or Stan?

“I did.”

Do you plot the Fantastic Four stories by drawing the basic story and then having Stan write the dialogue?

“This is Stanley’s editorial policy. As a Marvel artist, I carry it out.”

Late 1967-early 1968: Excelsior #1 interviews with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, by Sal Caputo and “The Kizer”

The note attached to this 1967 photostat from Thor #147 says: “Stat after lettering and send stats to Jack K. Also, tell Stan when stats go to J.K.” It’s evident this year was pivotal in terms of corrections on (Kirby would call it “interference with”) Jack’s work.

Gone were the days of just Lee & Kirby knocking out stories, warts and all. Marvel’s success led to serious editorial oversight.

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1968 ween re bet mewhe o r. s a e g y in is is sell pies th Marvel ion co l series il V m T an 50–60 e Batm dying. h t is f o e z episode e comics cra l a in f mes The g th n beco ignalin culatio mical, ir airs, s C is e Ch urt m and ikely. utor C more l ect Fil Distrib f Perf keover even o t r a p end, el ta to asc a Marv tinues n ly to o l c u making f r s s ta nsucce ee’s s u l vel s r s a A ie M r d An ith edly t ract w n. report r cont a e t m Kirby t d e o b te a in Go negotia lisher Mart pub

Distance and type out a detailed script .

“I have always been a good hack writer. I’ve always been able to write whatever has been necessary. For example, in the Army I used to write training films and I had never written films before. But they turned out great. I’ve Faux-autographed photo of Lee, sold in 1968 ads. written advertising, novels, just about everything. My style has changed only recently when we started our new line. The style I am writing in now is the one I am suited for, though.”

January 1968

Either Lee or Goodman (or both) sees value in marketing Stan as a “brand,” and prepares an ad which will run in Silver Surfer #1, Thor #153 and other Summer issues, selling an autographed portrait of “Stan the Man.” It’s preprinted with Lee’s signature and new catchphrase “Excelsior,” and though the ad promises photos of other Marvel stars, they never materialize, although Marvel’s upcoming fan club will offer a Bullpen photo kit with other creators included.

This month sees Kirby working on Thor #154, the first chapter of his four-part Mangog epic, which will potentially lead to Ragnarok, the death of all the old Norse gods.

It’s been rumored that Kirby wants to end Thor at this point, and transition to his own set of “new” gods, the genesis of which is a series of character concepts he’s been working on since 1966. I don’t know how seriously Kirby pushed for this, if at all, but Lee and/or Goodman never would’ve approved of ending a successful book like Thor, and Kirby ends up saving his ideas for later use, as we’ll see.

Lee is interviewed on WFMU Radio in New Jersey about his and Kirby’s work at Marvel: “...Jack is the greatest artist in the world. He also is a great story man. He does all the breakdowns and basic plots and I dialogue. We didn’t start that way but Jack and I think so much alike. It isn’t the same with every artist.

Some artists I have to sit with three or four times and sit down

January 1968: WFMU Radio (Jersey City, NJ) interview with Stan Lee, by Joel Scott

“[Stan’s] change in his style really came, I think, with Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. Before that, he didn’t have that kind of style... later on, he got his style, and I didn’t particularly want to go with that style myself. I continued to write whatever way I did write.

Later, when I did the Westerns, they were not written in Stan’s style.”

Larry Lieber:

1999: Larry Lieber interviewed by Roy Thomas, from Alter Ego #2

February 1968

The Baltimore Sun features an article interviewing Lee: “We don’t cater to any special age group. But we do cater to a special intellectual level. Our readers, no matter what their ages, have proved to be bright, imaginative, informal, and sophisticated.”

Stan must’ve made a point to mention Jack’s name here, for the reporter to have included: “Marvel entered the super-hero field in 1963, [sic] when Lee and artist Jack Kirby introduced ‘The Fantastic Four’.”

Feb. 6, 1968: The Baltimore Sun (Baltimore, MD) article “Collegians Go For Comics,” by Jackie Harper

To keep Marvel’s comics appealing to the college crowd, Lee has Jack’s “tough juveniles” described in Thor #154’s margin notes, redrawn as hippies.

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As the Batm an vestiges of the TV show dies, the last 1960s comics craze are playing out, as publisher Gold Key see s like there’s more to copying Marvel Comi cs ’ su cc es slapping supe s than just r-heroes on your covers. © Gold Key Comics.

Rutgers University’s WRSU 680AM radio station conducts an “Now, this is something, as far as I know, that had never in-depth interview with Stan: “Well, actually, I think, for the first really been done in comics before. Nobody thought of things twenty years of our publishing history, it would be honest and like this. This was a hero, and he was a cardboard figure, and fair to say that we were just another group of comic books. And he chased crooks, and he said, ‘There he goes, let’s get him,’ and then, about six years ago or whenever, when we first brought that was the end of it. So I think that was how this all came out the premiere issue of the Fantastic Four, we were kicking about. We sort of added another dimension to comic book chararound ideas and wondering what to do, and it occurred to acters, and the college kids were the first ones to realize this, us, as I say, ‘Let’s try and do the kind of books that we would and to become fanatically fond of them. Thank goodness.” enjoy if we read comics. Let’s not try to do something that we Lee reflects on the current plot of Sue Storm being pregnant think a ten-year-old will buy.’ And we introduced the Fantastic in Fantastic Four: “I’d love to have Sue have a miscarriage, but I Four, and our objective there was to violate all the rules, and to dastn’t [sic] because we announced earlier to some fans that violate all the clichés. Heretofore, any books involving teams of they would have a baby this year... really, the reason I’d like her super-heroes had heroes who to have a miscarriage got along beautifully with is that I don’t have each other, and were always any idea what kind of successful, and always acted baby to have, or what and reacted in very predictto do with him once able ways. she has the baby. I’m “So we thought, why sorry we ever started don’t we get a team of this darned thing, super-heroes who argue although we’re going among themselves, and fight to have to go through occasionally, are dissatisfied, with it. We and Sue want to quit, maybe they are going to have to have money troubles, and so go through with it. forth. They won’t wear cos“I’m sure none tumes. The first two issues of the fans, none of of the FF they didn’t even the readers, would wear costumes. I learned suspect that we’re that was a mistake. When the as much in the dark mail started coming in, the as they are. I wonder readers said, ‘Gee, that’s the if we should make a greatest book in the world! contest out of it and Oh, we love it! You gotta get ask for ideas, and a lot more like it! But give maybe we can steal them costumes. They gotta one of them. Just have costumes.’ That was one don’t know what to of the little rules I learned do with this kid, or that I wouldn’t have suspectkids. Some readers ed: In a super-hero strip, you have said, ‘Why don’t just need costumes, because they have twins?’ the avid fans can’t really “Then there’s relate to them or something a big controversy unless they’re wearing coloramongst a lot of fans ful costumes. The characters, who write to us, as that is, not the fans. half of them say that “We then learned anoththe baby absolutely er rule. We learned that what should have a superwe have to do with these power, and the others characters is treat them like say under no circumfairy tales for grown-ups. stances should that They all have some superpowchild have a superer, because that’s sort of the power. So I may just shtick. That’s the hook we run for the hills.” hang the plot on. One fellow The interviewer can walk on walls, or can comments on how burst into flame, or whatever. much more muscular Starting in Thor #154 and culminating in #157 [above], Kirby went all-out for one last epic tale, and it looked like he was heading toward But if we can accept the fairy and athletic characters Ragnarok. Did Lee pull him back, or did he never really have plans to end the Thor series and start fresh with some “newer” gods?

(Curiously, this page is labeled as #158, with #158’s correct “July schedule,” and it says “Eliminate 3 pages” at bottom.) tale quality of the superpowlike Spider-Man, the er, then we try to write everything else as realistically as posX-Men, and Johnny Storm look now, compared to when they were sible. If there were somebody named Johnny Storm, who called first published: “Well, I’m sorry to hear you say that, because himself the Human Torch, and if he could burst into flame, that was not my intention, and I think the artists, the different wouldn’t he still have his own little problems? Couldn’t he still artists, just get a little overzealous. We have that trouble. Jack have girl trouble? Couldn’t he still have acne? Mightn’t he have Kirby is so good at drawing muscular people, and he loves to do trouble paying his bills? Occasionally he’d get an allergy attack. it so, that we have continuing arguments about it every month.

90

He’s making Reed Richards look like Thor now, and, you know, this or worries about this. They’re, many of them are still writoriginally Reed was sort of a slim, scientific type of guy. Marie ing these things the way they were being written twenty years Severin very often does that with the Hulk. She has—when ago. The hero sees the villain running down the street, he says, the Hulk turns to Dr. Bruce Banner, he doesn’t look much less ‘There goes the monster! Let’s get ’im!’ That’s it, and it doesn’t strong than he does when he’s the Hulk. This is just something matter what character it is, they all speak the same. They don’t that we try to catch. We’re not doing it intentionally, but, unforhave any different speech mannerisms. So we’re really hung up tunately, I guess the artists are so used to drawing muscular on this business of everybody has to talk in his own distinctive people that it’s hard for them to—now, you’re right about way. We wouldn’t have Daredevil really speak the way Captain Spider-Man, and I have to talk to John Romita about that. He America speaks, and we wouldn’t have Spider-Man speak the should look like just an ordinary, slender fellow, but he has been way Iron Man would speak. We try to get a shade of difference getting kind of strong-looking, himself. That’s our fault. It’s an in each one, and we feel we know the characters that way.” oversight on our part. Not intentional.

Lee’s rationale behind continued stories is as follows: “...we “...I’m glad to hear you mention that, and I’m going to started it for two reasons. One, we felt we got better plots that make a note to go over this with a lot of the artists as soon as way, because we were able to get more detail, and more depth, you leave, because this is a failing on our part.” and so forth. Two, it made it easier for us. Instead of having—I As for where the ideas for stories originate, Lee makes a point was so busy in the beginning, I didn’t have a staff the size that that inadvertently expresses why Kirby is so important to the colit is now. I was doing just about everything myself, with a few laboration: “I’d love to say they all come from me, but, actually, artists, and the time it would take to discuss a plot, maybe you never know. I’ll talk to an artist, or I’ll talk to one of our an hour, two hours, was time that I could ill afford. Now, if I other editors or writers, and—people usually say, ‘How do you could discuss a plot once with an artist and say, ‘Break this get your ideas? How do you think these things up month after into two parts,’ this would keep him going for forty pages, and month?’ I sometimes wonder if the ideas are as important as it would be only one discussion for those forty pages, rather the execution, because I think the ideas are about the easiest than having to discuss two plots to take care of forty pages. So thing. Some of our best stories had ideas that were fairly simsomewhere along the line ple and commonplace, but I feel, more than the idea, it’s the way I saved a couple of hours, you tell it, the way you present it. We’ve done stories that which was valuable. were quite successful with the readers, “Now, many readers judging by the sales we’ve think that we do continhad and the mail we get, ued stories just to hook and then, after rereadthe reader and make ing the story, I would say sure he comes back to myself, well, the story next month. Actually, was really nothing. It I think more readers was just the hero meets a dislike them than like villain, fights him, defeats them, so if we were him, and then goes off into just interested in the night. But I suspect keeping the readers it was the little subplots, happy and having and the little asides, and them come back, I #100.

America the little things and depth, think we would disconCaptain om fr . t, ck is poin om Ja ters at th ” came fr the characterization, and so tinue the continued stories. But his charac st, “Destructon, ng vi gi tagoni rby is lature Ki of the an cu e m us forth, that we throw in that, if it is easier for us to turn out the books.

If we’re m na e e level of s show that th ple of th te An exam rby’s margin no anything, makes our books a working on one storyline for a few months, we can move a little Ki little better than some others. I faster. And, also, as I say, qualitatively, I think we can get better think it’s those extra little touches rather than the basic ideas, stories, just as we can get a better story in a magazine-length because I think most of our ideas are pretty much the same twenty-pager than we can in a ten-pager, and a ten-pager is betfrom issue to issue. It’s practically the same plot all the time, ter than a five-pager, and I think you’ll see the rationale behind just tackled from a different direction. that. If we have more pages to work with, we can tell the story “...in the beginning, I tried to set the pace and to set the a little more leisurely, get more character development, plot style, and now we’ve sort of got that established. The dialogue development, and so forth.”

I have always felt is the most important thing. Just as in a As for why Marvel doesn’t give more characters their own radio show, certainly the dialogue is the most important thing, books, Lee offers this explanation: “The only reason was just time.

I think in a motion picture, or in a television show, it’s what the The ones that were in their own ten-page strip, we just didn’t person says that matters. Good dialogue can make a very banal have time. Whatever artist was drawing them was either too plot seem very important and very profound, and I think bad slow or had too many other things to do. And this was a thing dialogue can make the greatest plot in the world seem corny that we tried to explain in our letters pages and Bullpen pages and hackneyed. The one thing that everybody seems to go for is from time to time, many readers would say, ‘Why don’t you give realism. It seems the more realistic you can be, the more sucIron Man his own book, we love him?’ Or, ‘Why don’t you give cessful you are, in any media. Now, to me, the thing that gives Captain America his own book,’ or the Hulk, or blah. Or, ‘You’ll a story realism is having the characters talk and react, and, of take a character that we don’t even like as much and give him course, you can only tell their reactions by what they’re saying, his own book, and the Hulk is still in only ten pages.’ Well, the like real people. Therefore, the thing that we spend, I guess, reason we gave another character his own book might have about 99% of our time on is the dialogue. I will rewrite one senbeen because we had the artist for that character, who had the tence a dozen times if I don’t feel I’ve got it right. Now, I’m sure time to do it, and the writer who had the time to write it, but the artist who was doing the Hulk, for one reason or another, nobody else, certainly nobody at any other comic company does 91

didn’t have the time to do a twenty-pager, and so forth. Our biggest problem is time. We do not have enough writers. We very rarely have enough artists around here. And we’re always working against the clock, and that’s—all of our characters, I think, now are going to have books of their own. Dr. Strange will, Agent of SHIELD will, Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, Captain America, and the Hulk. And that doesn’t leave anybody sort of stranded as part of a book, I’m happy to say. We’d like to give— many readers have said, ‘Why don’t you give the Inhumans a book of their own?’ Well, I know as I sit here, it would be one of our best-selling books, but I don’t have anybody to do it. I would like Jack Kirby to do it. He doesn’t have time, because he’s busy full-time with his three books now, so until the right artist comes along, we can’t do it. And, as soon as we get the artist, and soon as I get somebody, I hope myself, who has time to write it, then we will have an Inhumans book.”

While there’s some truth to Stan’s explanation for not expanding the line, the main reason is that Marvel’s old distributor limited the number of titles they could release up until this point in 1968.

Lee briefly discusses why some artists are no longer with Marvel: “Sometimes they quit. Sometimes they just didn’t work out and we’re forced to let them go. Luckily, we haven’t had too many who quit. We’ve only lost, I think, two artists who I was sorry to lose because they quit. One was Steve Ditko, and one was Wally Wood. Most of the others, while they were good men, or women, as the case may be, they just didn’t draw in the style that we were looking for, and we were forced to let them go. “...we live from emergency to emergency, and crisis to crisis. As I say, we never have enough writers, and very often don’t have enough artists, and the men work so close to the deadline date. For example, Jack Kirby, if he were to be ill one day, we might miss a book, because he does three books, and he just has enough time to do those three books in a month.

Now, sometimes an artist wants to take a vacation, or he has to attend his son’s graduation, or something comes up.

Lo and behold, we have to get another artist to do that strip.

Sometimes one artist is ill for a while, someone else has to pitch in. Now, it’s like falling dominoes. As soon as something happens to one artist, we have to take another fellow, who’s also busy, and give him that strip to fill in on. Then we have to take somebody else to do the strip that the second busy fellow had to do, and so forth. Consequently, it is very difficult to keep one artist with one book. We’re always shuffling, and it isn’t always because we’re dissatisfied with the work an artist is doing. Very often, we’re tremendously satisfied with what an artist is doing, but we still have to take them off a particular book, because another book is more of an emergency, and it’s easier to get somebody else to do the book this fellow is doing, you see. So, very often, when you see us shuffling artists or writers around, it isn’t always that we were unhappy with the way the strip was going, but there might be any number of reasons why this was done, and it’s usually because of an emergency that came up, and this happens every day. The same goes for the writing, I might add, that between Roy, and Gary, and myself, we’re very hard-pressed to write all the stories, and we’re always trying to get new writers. “...right now I’m writing less than I ever have. I’m writing the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Thor, Daredevil, the Captain America book...

And Millie the Model. And that’s about it.

“The way it works, I can

give you a very fast rundown, if you want. I discuss, or possibly Roy, or Gary, or Archie [Goodwin], our three writers presently, will discuss the plot of whatever story we’re working on with the artist who is going to draw the story. The artist then goes home and draws the story in pencil, brings it back to the writer, who then puts in the copy, types in the copy, and indicates in a blue pencil on the artwork where the balloons go...”.

Feb. 8 (or 18), 1968: WRSU 680AM Radio (campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey) interview with Stan Lee

This month, Kirby’s drawing Thor #155, but as Glen Gold discovered on the original art from the issue, Stan is making very direct comments in the margins to someone, that the dialogue isn’t working, and he suggests fixes.

This leads to the supposition that someone in the office may well’ve been ghost-writing on this, or Lee is at least having someone else in the office fix things that, in hindsight, he doesn’t feel worked well on his own dialogue.

March 1968

On March 5, the New York Daily News includes a radio listing for Stan Lee appearing on WNBC 660AM’s The Lee Leonard Show. But while Stan is blanketing the airwaves with talk of how perplexing it is to decide what to do about the FF’s impending birth, Kirby is busy at home actually creating that story for Fantastic Four Annual #6.

April 1968

Asgard narrowly avoids Ragnarok this month as Jack completes Thor #157. While Kirby is saving the universe on 3-ply bristol board, on April 8, Lee is interviewed on Montreal, Canada’s TV Channel 12. It appears Stan’s wife Joan has a sister who lives in Canada, so this probably takes place during a family visit there, which is about a six-hour drive from New York.

April 8, 1968: The Gazette (Montreal, Canada) TV listing: 6:00 on Channel 12, Pierre Berton interviews Stan Lee, creator of comic book super-heroes.

May 1968

As Silver Surfer #1 and Fantastic Four #77 are published, Kirby borrows $2,000 from Martin Goodman on May 22 to finance his family’s upcoming move to California. The move is to find a more suitable climate for Jack’s daughter, who suffers from asthma.

Around this time, Bill Everett also receives a “loan” from Goodman, a reportedly off-the-record agreement where Everett would not sue for Sub-Mariner copyrights, so as not to hurt the pending sale of Marvel to Perfect Film.

“When I started working there, it was a momand-pop organization, basically. It was in the days when Martin Goodman and Stan were still in charge. Martin HERB TRiMPE:

Kirby’s promissory note to Martin Goodman.

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Goodman was the publisher of Magazine Management, of which Marvel was only one of the divisions. They had several things that they did, pulp magazines and so on. And in those days, I went in and I told Stan I needed an advance on my salary. ‘I need about eight hundred bucks.’ And he said, ‘Let me talk to Martin.’ So he came back with a check for $800, no interest, taken out of my salary a little bit at a time... That’s the kind of company it was—unheard of by today’s standards.”

2012–2013: Interview with Herb Trimpe, by Dewey Cassell and Aaron Sultan

“Stan cared greatly about the artists—all the creative people. Nobody knows how many times he would argue with Martin, behind closed doors, because he didn’t like the way Martin was treating, or underpaying some people. But Stan didn’t want anyone to know about those arguments because he always wanted the public to think Marvel was a great place where everyone always got along beautifully—and for the most part, they did.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

Kirby is due at this point to draw Thor #158, but something keeps it from happening. The published Thor #158 features only seven new pages by Jack, and a mish-mash cover with Kirby pasteups and a large Marie Severin Thor face. There’s also one known unused pencil panel of Don Blake that exists. I’m assuming Kirby is tied up drawing the lengthy and important Fantastic Four Annual #6’s story (featuring the birth of Reed and Sue’s son), and making trips to California to find a new home, schools, etc. So the Thor fillin has to be done when he runs behind schedule.

Around this time, John Verpoorten draws the humor story “Auntie Goose Rhymes” for Not Brand Echh #11, which is written by Roy Thomas, and features a telling caricature of Kirby. Verpoorten draws notes pinned next to Kirby’s drawing board: One that says “Jack: Everything is due today!—Smiley”, and another in the next panel reading, “All is forgiven! Carmine.”

A stat of Doom’s retu

rn from Daredevil #37

of the previous year,

sent to Jack.

reportedly “over-running” the company by September.

Perhaps sensing the writing is on the wall for his future at Marvel, Kirby begins one final, continued epic cosmic saga for Thor #160–170. Before he’s done, it will include Thor’s regular cast, plus Galactus, the Recorder, Ego the Living Planet, Pluto, Zeus, Him, the Watcher, and culminate with planned origins for both Galactus and the Watcher. But as in the past, Jack will soon see that his best laid plans aren’t always allowed to reach fruition.

Despite his impending move to California, Kirby seems to be drawing Fantastic Four #84 on schedule around this time, as the story is inspired by The Prisoner which debuted on CBS television, just a month earlier in June. This will be Dr. Doom’s first FF appearance since he was seemingly destroyed on the Silver Surfer’s surfboard at the end of issue #60.

In Kirby’s files are photostats of Gene Colan’s art from Daredevil #37 (published in December 1967), where Dr. Doom first returns following his apparent destruction in Fantastic Four #60.

These were sent to Kirby by the Marvel staff when someone there (perhaps Roy Thomas) remembered Doom was already back, and wanted Kirby aware of it when he drew FF #84.

This second note refers to the recent retirement of Jack Schiff from DC Comics, paving the way for Kirby to work for them again.

So Jack’s discontent is common knowledge around the Marvel offices by mid-1968 if not earlier, and his upcoming move to California is fueling gossip around the water cooler. Roy Thomas confirms to me that, “Everyone knew a bit about Jack’s beefs with Stan” by this time. It makes me wonder why Stan Lee, as editor, would’ve let this gag through if he noticed it at all—but based on the number of interviews Lee is doing, he wouldn’t have much time to be poring over every panel of a less important title like Not Brand Echh.

August 1968

Lee’s media tour continues during an August 12 interview on New York’s WBAI-FM radio, where he reflects on the sparse plotting session with Kirby that brought about Dr. Doom’s return in FF #84–87: “Jack and I—well, in the beginning we spent a little more time on the plotting. Now we’ve gotten to work, I think, so well together, that our plotting session will be something like, ‘Hey, in the next Fantastic Four, Jack, let’s let the villain be Dr.

July 1968

Perfect Film & Chemical finalizes a deal to buy Marvel from Martin Goodman for roughly $15 million, with the condition that Stan Lee remains with the company as its figurehead/spokesman.

Goodman agrees to stay with the company for four years to oversee operations during the transition to new ownership. PF&G are 93

Doom.’ ‘Okay, where does he come from? Where did we leave off with him?’ And I’ll say, ‘I don’t know. Let’s look it up for a second.

Oh, yeah, he was fading off into another universe. Find some way to bring him back, Jack, and then we’ll have him attack the Fantastic Four, and let’s end the story with him running off and eloping with Sue Storm or something.’ And Jack’ll say, ‘fine,’ and he goes off, and by the time he brings the artwork back, it might be that particular plot, or he might have changed fifty million things. And then I take it, and I try to write it and pull it all together. Whatever he has drawn, I try to tell it in my own way. So what happens, I think, is the reader gets the benefit of the best artistic efforts of both the artist and the writer. The artist is uninhibited. He’s not following an actual script, so he can go home and draw whatever he thinks are the most interesting, most dramatic pictures. Then the writer takes those drawings, and he’s uninhibited by any real preconceived notions, and he just writes his dialogue to suit the drawings. So I’d like to feel, when we’re all finished, it’s rather a perfect marriage of art and script, you see.”

[right] On this stat from Fantastic Four #85, Stan leaves a note for Sol Brodsky to contact Kirby about adding more detail in the large, circular “buttons” that hold Dr. Doom’s cloak to his armor, saying: “In close-ups such as this, I think the big ‘buttons’ should have more detail, pattern, or modeling. They look too unfinished, too cartoony this way.”

The unmasking scene does not play out this way in the published issue, either due to Jack changing it, or Stan. But on page 15 of the issue, there are what appear to be distinct likenesses of some young boys—perhaps added by Kirby as a tribute to his unidentified visitors, although Len Wein and Marv Wolfman were also known to stop by, so it may be them.

August 12, 1968: Stan Lee interviewed by Neal Conan on New York’s WBAI-FM radio

While Jack is working on this multipart Dr. Doom story, a couple of fans find his address in the phone book, and bicycle to Kirby’s Long Island home, where he shows them a page (possibly ck’s home?

Visitors to Ja page 19) from Fantastic Four #85 on his drawing board. Kirby tells them he plans to reveal that Dr. Doom’s face is only slightly scarred, not horribly disfigured under his mask.

1997: Per John Parrett’s letter in Jack Kirby Collector #16

[1970] “I had a hand in creating Doctor Doom... Doom is a very tragic figure... I like Doom. Doom has got a lot of class, he’s got a lot of cool. But Doom has one fallacy; he thinks he’s ugly. He’s afraid to take that mask off. Doom is an extremist; he’s a paranoid.

He thinks in extremes. He can’t think, ‘Well, I’ve got a scar on me, but that doesn’t make me repellent...’. Actually, Doom is a very handsome guy with a scar on him that he got from acid when he was a child. But Doom is an extremist, he’s a paranoid. To him, he’s extremely ugly.

If Doom were to lose one hair, he’d put on a wig. And if Doom had an enemy, he’d have to wipe him out. And if Doom thought that anybody was smarter than himself, he’d kill ’em, because Doom would have to be the smartest man in the world. He’s an extremist; but, y’know, he has good manners...”

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

Back at WBAI radio, Lee goes on to give more credit to Kirby for his input: “I’ve got the worst memory in the world, but I have a feeling, when Jack Kirby named [The Silver Surfer]—he started out as a guest-star in Fantastic Four. Jack and I can never really remember which of us came up with most names.

He wasn’t even supposed to be in the story. When I plotted it with Jack, it was just Galactus and so forth. And when I got the story from Jack to write the copy, he had drawn this fellow on the surfboard, and I think he called him ‘the Surfer’ or ‘the Silver Surfer,’ and the name was certainly euphonious, and we decided to keep it. And we all fell in love with him. Well, you see, this is loosely translated. In his own language, obviously, he said something else. “[Ego, the Living Planet] was Jack’s idea, too. I remember I said, ‘You’ve got to be kidding.’ He said, ‘No, let’s get a living planet, a bioverse.’ Well, I didn’t want him to think I was chicken.

I said, ‘All right, you draw it, I’ll write it.’ And, yeah, I think it turned out pretty good. “...I was at some college, I think it was Princeton, and we had recently completed the stories with Galactus and the Silver Surfer, I think they were originally in three consecutive issues of The Fantastic Four, and apparently they made a great impression on these students at Princeton who were interviewing me. And the first time they mentioned the three issues, they referred to them as ‘The Galactus Trilogy,’ you see?

And they said, ‘Referring to the Galactus Trilogy, who did you

Doom’s vanity shows in Fantastic Four #85. Kirby viewed him as only having a small scar, while Lee saw him totally disfigured.

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originally...?’ blah-blah-blah. Well, to me, these guys calling it the ‘Galactus Trilogy’ and getting a lot of fan mail in which it was referred to that way, I remember saying to Jack and Martin Goodman, ‘I think we have finally made the first inroads in elevating the comics just a little bit.’ I think they’re beginning to become a form of literature now, to some degree, and hopefully we’ll continue on that path.

“We had a Fantastic Four story, I don’t remember it exactly, but I think there was a football game involved, and Johnny Storm, who’s just an ordinary teenager when he’s not the Human Torch, was in the stands watching the game. And it just seemed to me that, why wouldn’t Peter Parker be there, also, with his camera, you see, because he’s a teenager, too, who’s also Spider-Man, as you know, and he lives in the same city, and he’s a professional photographer on a part-time basis. So, in one of the panels, Jack had already drawn the panel, and it was just a crowd scene up in the stands, and we asked him to change one of the characters and make him Peter Parker recognizably, but we didn’t make any mention of it at all in the story.

We didn’t have Johnny Storm turn around and say, ‘Aren’t you Peter Parker?’, anything like that. He just appeared in a panel.

We must have had a thousand letters commenting about that.

We do that a little bit whenever we can.”

This page from FF #61 has numerous Lee notes for corrections, notably for John Romita to add Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson to this panel.

Lee makes another national radio appearance on Face to Face With Barry Farber this month. He’s back on Farber’s show just two months later when, accompanied by his wife Joan, Stan debates anti-comics psychiatrist Frederic Wertham’s research partner, Dr. Hilde Mosse. On that latter program, Stan mentions attending a lecture by author Gershon Legman, “a man who had worked with Wertham” who referred to a comic Lee edited as being an example of “vulgarity.” Both talk show appearances originate at New York station WOR-AM.

August 12, 1968: Stan Lee interviewed by Neal Conan on New York’s WBAI-FM radio

On August 31, only three months after receiving his loan from Goodman, records show Kirby repays half of it— odd, since his move to California hasn’t occurred yet.

Total speculation on my part here, but instead of money actually changing hands, is this $1000 “repayment” just Goodman forgiving this amount, in a move similar to the “loan” Bill Everett received for not suing for ownership of Sub-Mariner?

Sept. 23, 1968: St. Louis Post-Dispatch (St. Louis, MO) radio listing: 7–10pm, WKSD, Face to Face With Barry Farber, guest Stan Lee, comic book publisher.

Nov. 12, 1968: Face to Face With Barry Farber, guests Stan Lee, Dr. Hilde Mosse, Dennis Marks, and Barry Yellen. Audiotape discovered in Stan Lee’s archives at the American Heritage Center, University of Wyoming, and transcribed for The Stan Lee Universe.

September 1968

On his Meanwhile, Steve Ditko regular schedis speaking out in a much ule, Kirby more intimate forum—the is drawing fanzine Marvel Main #4, in Fantastic Four an interview conducted while #86 at this he is “sick and recuperating,” DC Comics jabs Lee in Angel & The Ape #1 [1968]. point. But per the editorial in the issue. there’s eviDitko suffered from tuberculosis, and it’s assumed this illness is the dence that he’s reason he departs DC Comics around this time, after co-creating doubling-up The Creeper and Hawk & Dove there in 1968: “I prefer conflicts his production, that are based on reality rather than based on fantasy. When you in anticipation get wound up with super-villains, super-fantastic gadgets and of lost time super-incredible action, everything has to be made so deliberately during his Ditko produces new characters for DC Comics in 1968, that it all becomes senseless. It boils down to what you want a story including the Hawk and the Dove, and the Creeper.

January move to California. to stand for.”

The Star Trek television episode “A Piece of the Action” (which was When asked if it was an intentional decision not to be photofirst broadcast on January 12, 1968) is rerun on August 30. Since graphed (as in Marvel Tales #1), to speak on the 1964 “Voices of FF #89’s story introduces a subplot Marvel” record, or be depicted in the comics during his years at based on it, an inspired Kirby is at Marvel (other than by his own hand in Spider-Man Annual least planning, if not outright draw#1), Ditko simply says, “Yes.” And Kirby asks ing, #89 to get ahead of schedule. for more time on pages co when asked for personal data ntain Sue the bottom of pa Kirby also pencils Thor #162, with ge 18 of Storm’s re Fantastic scue of th such as his age and marital staFo ur e group— preliminary details of Galactus’ origin. According the surpris #86. Those missi ng last tw e ending tus, he declines, joking that he’s o of th e issue. to Kirby’s margin notes, an advanced planet chooses one of its own “...a man of mystery!” to go into an incubation cell. When attacked years later, they send Circa Sept. 1968: Steve Ditko interview conducted by Michael and Richard Howell for the fanzine Marvel Main the cell up to meet the attackers. The person in the cell pops out as #4 (published Oct. 1968) Galactus, destroys the invaders and saves his planet, but then needs more energy to survive, and ends up destroying his own planet.

Lee’s dialogue doesn’t quite follow Kirby’s idea to the letter, includConcerned that Jim Steranko will be late turning in his pages ing his resolution where Odin discovers Galactus’ home base is in a for Captain America #112, Lee enlists Kirby to draw a fill-in issue, “region of anti-life bands,” so they know where to attack him later.

October 1968

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literally over a weekend.

At this point, Kirby decides to bring back the “Him” character from the Fantastic Four #67 story Lee altered a year prior. Jack inserts his “cocoon” at the end of Thor #163 as a teaser, leading to his full reappearance in #165.

switching to a new printer, with earlier deadlines required, thus affecting Marvel’s schedule. Just as likely, Kirby’s impending move to California (and his increasing animosity toward Lee) keeps Jack from working on the book—and Stan doesn’t want to risk another rift with Kirby over characters he’s created being assigned to another artist.

November brings another Stan Lee media appearance, this time on Pittsburgh radio station WJAS. November 14, 1968: Pittsburgh Press (Pittsburgh, PA) radio listing: 4:35pm, WJAS, Now. An interview with Stan Lee about today’s comic books.

It also brings an interview for a feature article in Eye Magazine, a short-lived youth culture magazine published by the Hearst Corporation. In it, Lee hopes his wife Joan one day “will go to a cocktail party and won’t be embarrassed when she’s asked what her husband does for a living.

“I have no idea what’s going to happen. I really don’t know if Sue’s baby is going to have supernatural powers when he gets older. Until the day of the final deadline for [Fantastic Four Annual #6], we didn’t know if she was going to have a boy, a girl, or a monster. I think we flipped a coin.”

Lee makes a point to mention that the artist sometimes contributes elements to stories that he hasn’t considered. This article calls the FF “Lee’s first creation...”, but that may just be the author’s interpretation based on the interview he conducted. When Stan is actually quoted elsewhere in the article, he says: “When I created Hulk with artist Jack Kirby, we had the feeling that people love a guy who isn’t perfect. As a kid I always loved the Frankenstein monster. All kids know that Frankenstein’s monster really isn’t a bad guy, that he’s friendly to blind violinists, and that he just fell into bad company.”

November 1968

Around this time, Kirby’s wife Roz starts holding back especially compelling full-page drawings from Jack’s stories, telling him, “These are too good for Marvel.”

“Him” from Tho r #166.

Lee answers two consecutive questionnaires he is sent by a fan. When asked why Ditko left Marvel, Lee states: “He just upped and quit!! Never told us why!! (We wish he had remained.)” In his second round of answers, he’s asked about a rumor that Ditko is returning to Marvel, but Lee shoots it down: “No—we wish it were true!!”

When queried about a “Captain Marvel” lawsuit, Lee first says of it, “We’re not worried!”, and on his second set of responses says, “...We won it!.”

Nov. 1968 interview (Feb. 1969 cover date): Eye Magazine article, “The New Super-Hero (Is A Pretty Kinky Guy)”

Nov. 1968 cover-date: Marvelites Fan-Zine #1 interviews with Stan Lee by Bob Krotts, president and editor of the Marvelites Fan Club. Inside of publication lists it as Summer/Fall 1968.

December 1968

As you’ll recall, Myron Fass published his infamous “split” Captain Marvel in February 1966, using the name that had languished since DC Comics’ 1953 settlement with Fawcett over their character’s similarity to Superman. While nailing down assets to effect the sale of Marvel, Goodman offered Fass $6000 for the rights to the character in July 1966, but Fass turned him down. So in October 1967, Goodman released his own “Captain Mar-Vell” character in Marvel Super-Heroes #12. The character received a solo series in September 1968, triggering this lawsuit. The legal action is first reported in a November 13, 1967 Wall Street Journal article, so these interview answers from Stan would’ve come right around that article’s publication date.

As Lee writes his “Stan’s Soapbox” column for February 1969 releases, he apologizes that the Inhumans title previously announced is not to be. He says the reason is due to Marvel

Lee ends the year writing an auspicious notice for the Bullpen Bulletins page in June 1969 cover-dated issues: “Here’s an announcement we make with mixed emotions. JACK (King) KIRBY and family are leaving New York and moving to California. In fact, by the time you read this, the King will already be settled on the shores of the blue Pacific! But, don’t panic, pilgrim—he’ll still be doing his bit for the Bullpen, same as ever. It’s just that he’ll be spending most of his extra cabbage on air-mail stamps rather than those king-sized cigars he loves to sport. Actually, it’s a terrific deal for the Great One, who certainly deserves his place in the sun; but poor ol’ Stan has conniptions every time he thinks of the long-distance phone bills he’s gonna run up each month when he calls his pantin’ partner to discuss their latest plots! Hooo boy!”

DC Comics sued over Fawcett Comics’ 1940 Captain Marvel’s similarity to Superman, and won an out-of-court settlement in 1953, when Fawcett decided to get out of comics entirely. This spawned Marvelman, a 1954 UK knock-off, begun when new Fawcett stories to reprint there ran out. Then, Myron Fass co-opted the name in 1966, and even went so far as to name one of his characters “Dr. Doom,” probably just to annoy Martin Goodman.

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1969 outwith an ia ement n e a r m g l a e an rv makes orm Ma rnia-based Marvel tractor to f o if l a C ail w n ostly f This ne side co , and m m ional. e o t s t a u s n l u r b wil Inte any c fan clu reate m arvel Marvel r, Kirby to c ull set of M fo a f Kirby’s to pay draws e has gs. He but Le merica A in drawin er posters, ta t nd Cap a y Herb , b n charac a s -M ion nko, Spider ed with vers , k e l t u S ra H replac nd Jim e a s b , r a e ’t t it n s po Rom l wo , John materia re style.

Trimpe t all of the u t a n sig so tha Kirby’s ent on depend

Solitude “In Kirby’s original version of Galactus’ origin, it’s pretty clear that the sequence of events is that Galactus emerges as an irradiated, Due to dying entity, and the Watcher, then Romita dr Kirby’s move w es ew the co a scientist, takes action to save his ver for Th t, John or #169. life, helping to complete his transformation into TOM Brevoort:

January 1969

The Kirby family relocates from New York to California with the balance of Martin Goodman’s loan, further distancing Jack from the Marvel offices.

In the midst of his hectic move and getting settled in California the first few months of 1969, Jack draws Thor #168–170, reaching a climax to his last great cosmic epic begun in Thor #160 back in July 1968.

Kirby incorporates characters that he’s most personally attached to—even revisiting the character “Him” from Fantastic Four #67, which had widened the rift between Lee and he—all building toward something big. But after giving the basic details of Galactus’ origin early on in Thor #162, why does he return to it just seven issues later, unless there is an even bigger story to tell?

In typical Kirby fashion, there is: Jack’s finally ready to detail the backstory of Galactus and the Watcher that was hinted at back in Fantastic Four #49, during the “Galactus Trilogy”—and give his own origin of the Watcher.

But in another clear sign that Jack is setting the course for Thor with no input from Stan, Kirby heartbreakingly has most of issue #169 rejected

by Lee, and his ultimate resolution of the story arc scrapped. Numerous penciled pages are jettisoned uninked, and what’s redrawn (and oddly inked

by George Klein, taking over from Vince Colletta) barely holds together as a story. In fact, many of the Klein-inked Galactus figures in the published version appear to have been drawn as the Watcher, then altered—even with Klein’s bold inkwork, those heavily blackened figures look way out of place. In one telltale panel, you can still see the Watcher’s toga on a Galactus figure—in a story where Thor has no interaction with the Watcher at all.

I’ve been mulling over what happened to Thor #169 for years, with the help of collector Glen Gold and others. But a recent exchange with Marvel’s Tom Brevoort finally made sense of it:

Galactus is born in Thor #162, but not exactly the way Kirby had envisioned, due to Lee’s input. This page might’ve originally been drawn for the Silver Surfer’s unrealized origin in Fantastic Four #77, and Kirby finally found a use for it here.

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rework it so extensively—to the point where it really doesn’t even make a whole lot of sense. I’m guessing that Kirby felt kicked in the teeth by this again (especially given the connection to the kneecapping that was Silver Surfer #1) and this is what caused that whole narrative to shut down at that point.”

Unused Galactus origin page, which Kirby had inker Mike Royer later alter for use on the envelope for the 1971 GODS Portfolio.

June 15, 2019: Tom Brevoort, in an e-mail to John Morrow

I think this is spot-on, and a brilliant deduction. Thor #169’s big disappointment for Kirby is more about the Watcher than Galactus. Jack had previously forfeited the Silver Surfer (finding out after the fact that Stan had done an origin without him). Now again, when he turns in the pages for Thor #169, he loses both the Watcher (Kirby likely had no idea there’d already been an origin for the character, just like when he first learned about Silver Surfer #1), and Galactus (only to a lesser extent, since the initial Incuba-Cell sequence remains canon).

Just as the whole “Norrin Radd” concept completely ruined his vision for the Silver Surfer, Lee’s making the Watcher only one of many other such beings, as opposed to an individual, lessened the character’s reason for existence in Jack’s mind.

On top of that, his subsequent attempt to make Galactus a pseudo-good guy to fight the Thermal Man at the story arc’s climax is scuttled too. I’d argue it is an interesting idea to move the character forward—something Kirby is always attempting to do. Seeing his “god” Galactus not allowed to evolve, it’s no wonder Jack will soon turn to his own vision of “new” gods, and leave his old ones behind.

So he now feels blindsided by Lee on the three characters he was most attached to personally and most celebrated for (four if you count “Him”), as Stan had gone off and charted their raison d’etre without consulting or involving Kirby. And since he is already

Galactus. (Lee scripts what’s left of this sequence in the finished book differently, but if you study all of the bits, that’s what Kirby intends to have going on more or less.)

“So, in essence, the origin of Galactus is also the origin of the Watcher. Unleashing Galactus upon the universe to destroy planets in his hunger is the deed which causes the Watcher to undertake his oath not to interfere ever again—because the last time he interfered, the consequences were disastrous. This is the shared history between these two figures alluded to in the Galactus Trilogy.

“But here’s the problem: Lee had already given the Watcher an origin years earlier, making him one of a race of Watchers, all of whom followed this code. (Kirby’s conception appears to be that there was only a single Watcher, our guy on the moon.)

And that origin had recently been expanded and retold in Silver Surfer #1, so it was fresh in everyone’s minds.

“My guess is that Kirby either didn’t remember or never noticed that Lee had done this [Watcher] origin—but I suspect that the fact that the story details that Jack was putting down in Thor #169 conflicted with this earlier but recently expanded account is what caused the need to go back into One of many rejected Thor #169 pencil pages. All the known unused pages that story and

A page that Roz Kirby considered “too good” for Marvel, and pulled from a story to keep.

This probably was from Fantastic Four #77 or Thor #162 or #169.

are documented in Jack Kirby Collector #52.

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Likewise, this month’s prep of the letters page for Fantastic Four #89 gives Kirby full credit for the concept of the Negative Zone: “Your explanation sounds pretty much like what King Kirby had in mind when he suggested the idea to Smiley—.”

In early 1969, Kirby is interviewed by Mark Hebert, but the conversation won’t be published for several years: “I tried to

work it out with Stan [Lee], to hint about super-heroes. There were a few still going but they didn’t have the big audience they [once] had. There was a thing I was involved in, The Fly, which got a reaction, and because of that I told Stan that there might be hope for super-heroes. ‘Why don’t we try Captain America again?’ I kept harping on it and Marvel was quiet in those days, like every other office, and then things began to pick up and gain momentum.”

Galactus as a hero? Kirby felt this was the way forward for his characterization; Lee disagreed.

on the West Coast when the changes to Thor #169 happened, the distance only makes the (mis-)communication between them worse.

Rejecting Kirby’s new characterization for Galactus is arguably a smart commercial move by Lee: The unused Thor #169 pages show Thor playing Alicia to Galactus’ Surfer (à la Fantastic Four #48–50), as Thor convinces Galactus to come back to Earth, save the day, and turn into a semi-hero. This kind of evolution would rule out Galactus forever as a destructive force to be used over and over in future Marvel comics—his viability as a “villain” would be lost. (But imagine what Kirby could’ve done with Galactus in the role of a universe-traveling reluctant hero.)

That argument is surely lost on Kirby. After dealing with the frustrations of yet another Lee rewrite, the heavily-altered saga limps along to a very unsatisfying conclusion, with the Thermal Man reduced to a throwaway villain. Once again, Jack is reminded that, though he’s the one coming up with the stories, Stan always has final say, and can change his conceptions at will, even on a whim. Later, when Lee offers Silver Surfer #18 to Kirby to basically do with what he wanted, while it might’ve been a peace offering from Stan (but let’s not kid ourselves—it was also a savvy commercial decision on a failing book), it isn’t received well by Jack.

You can immediately see the wind is knocked out of Kirby’s sails with Thor #171, a pedestrian rehash featuring the Wrecker, which is only noteworthy for its inks by Bill Everett, who really captures the essence of Jack’s still impressive penciling. The remainder of his Thor run, as well as the concurrent Fantastic Four work he’s doing, is still visually appealing, but it’s obvious Kirby’s no longer investing himself in the plotting. He’ll save his grandest ideas for another day, which is soon to come.

February 1969

In preparing the letter column for Thor #166 (presumably written by Stan Lee), there is tacit acknowledgment that Kirby is in charge of the creative direction of the book. In response to a letter writer complaining that Thor too easily dispatched Galactus in Thor #162: “Is it really all but inconceivable that the redoubtable thunder god could have defeated Galactus? Or has Mr. K. merely underestimated the power of ol’ Goldilocks?”

Thor #169 original art page. In panel five, are those heavy blacks a sign Galactus was redrawn? His head looks too small proportionally, and shifted too far to the left. But an oversized Watcher noggin would’ve filled that blank center area more convincingly.

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A planet that was alive; a planet that was intelligent. That was nothing new either because there had been other stories on live planets, but that’s not acceptable. Oh, I could tell you that there was a living planet somewhere and you would say, ‘Yeah, that’s wild,’ but how do you relate to it? Why is it alive? So I felt somewhere out in the universe, the universe turns liquid—becomes denser and turns liquid—and that in this liquid, there was a giant multiple virus, and if this multiple virus remained isolated for millions and millions of years, it would begin to think. It would begin to evolve by itself and it would begin to think. By the time we reached it, it might be quite superior to us—and that was Ego. That was acceptable because I was answering questions that someone might ask about it. It’s a concept. I feel somewhere—in fact, it almost makes sense—that the universe gets denser and the atoms grow more compact and possibly nothingness becomes something and that something gets bigger and it gets bigger and it might resolve itself into some kind of liquid atoms. Why not?

“Dr. Doom is paranoid. He thinks he’s ugly and he wants the whole world to be like him. Dr. Doom is the fox who had his tail cut off, and he’s trying to talk the whole world into having their tails cut off so when everyone has his tail cut off, he becomes the most handsome fox. That’s ridiculous, because paranoids are insane people who never get their way. Hitler tried it, you know.”

You created and drew all of Marvel’s standard heroes.

“That’s right... I created the Hulk, too, and saw him as a kind of handsome Frankenstein. I never felt the Hulk was a monster, because I felt the Hulk was me. I feel all the characters were me. Being a monster is just the surface thing. I won’t accept that either because I want to know why the Hulk jumps around, what the limits of his strength are. I feel that the Hulk’s strength is unlimited for some damn reason I don’t understand. It’s just unlimited, and when I had him fight with the Thing, I felt the Hulk broke it off at a point where he hadn’t fully tested his strength. I feel it should be that way.”

Then the Fantastic Four came along, which was a small revolution in itself.

“Well, it was a revolution in the sense that it was now—the super-hero had become now. I felt like experimenting with gimmicks.

When I drew a gimmick, it wasn’t the old type of gimmick; it was everything based on right now and what people saw everyday and what they might see five or ten years from now. I could take electronic set-ups and just let them run riotous, and that led to the gadgets you might see today. That’s how the Negative Zone came about. I began to experiment with that kind of stuff and that’s how Ego came about. I began to throw my mind out in all different directions.

“There was a time when I had to do a story about a living planet.

Early 1969 (published Nov.-Dec. 1976): The Nostalgia Journal #30–31 interview, conducted by Mark Hebert

March 1969

Stan Lee updates readers on Kirby’s West Coast progress, as he composes the Bullpen Bulletins page for the September 1969 cover-dated releases: “It looks as though sunny California has been agreeing with the King! Yep, since moving out there, Jolly JACK KIRBY has been working faster than ever and is actually getting ahead of his super-human schedule! This means he may have time to handle still another mag within the next year. So here’s your chance to sound off again, faithful one! Which strip is most worthy of the Master’s touch? Should we finally launch the INHUMANS? DR. DOOM? KA-ZAR? Or, do you have some other oldie or newie you’d like him to bring to life?”

At this point, I’m assuming Jack goes from an average of five months ahead of on-sale date, to six months ahead on Fantastic Four and possibly Thor, to make up for the time to mail pages in. But as Kirby completes penciling FF #93, the grind of keeping up with his prodigious output has taken its toll on his top inker.

“I stayed on [Fantastic Four] right up to #92 and then I was really burnedout, and I called Stan. I said, ‘Stan, I’ve got to take a vacation.’ So I did, and Frank Giacoia did the next couple of issues. I came back with #94 and [after skipping #96–97] stayed until #102, which was Jack’s last issue for quite some time.

“I remember getting Kirby pages in the mail during that time and marveling at them—not for too long, of course, because I did have to get to work and ink them. But, as nice as they were to look at, some pages would take more time.”

Joe Sinnott:

2006: Interview with Joe Sinnott by Tim Lasiuta, for Brush Strokes With Greatness

Kirby’s move to the West Coast brings new opportunities to use his talents. Above is his poster art for a play he designs costumes for, and unused Marvelmania poster art (Lee instead chose to have current Spider-Man artist John Romita redo this one). SPQR © Kirby Estate.

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At the beginning of this month, Stan Lee conducts a major newspaper interview by phone. The eventual

article includes an uncredited Silver Surfer drawing by Kirby, and a Spider-Man drawing with Romita’s signature shown.

Some tidbits from Lee’s quotes: “I created my first comic book anti-hero six years ago, and A good catch (and a little venting of frustration) by Stan on this FF #90 page.

His notes to Sol Brodsky about the way Jack drew Alicia’s eyes: “Fix Alicia’s named him pupils. Sol—She’s blind! If only J.K. were consistent.”

Spider-Man. I contended that a hero could have super powers and still have acne, flat feet, and girl problems.

“The Surfer is bald like Yul Brynner and covered with white plastic so he looks sort of naked if you don’t see him up close... an angel without wings. Man’s inhumanity to man tears him up. He wants to create a heaven on the Earth he is an eternal outcast on. It’s all very metaphysical.

“You can’t put the dialogue balloon for one character in another’s mouth.”

are downright mundane, with little to get excited about, and many feeling as if Jack is refusing to even plot anymore, requiring Stan to provide a full plot instead. Fan mail suggests that readers are aware of the decline.

On April 24, Lee delivers a speech at the University of Rochester, saying: “The world is undergoing a metamorphosis.

I hope—and I have my fingers crossed that we will be able to put some sex into the comic books soon—sex that’s relevant to the times. I don’t mean filth. I want the kids to be good.

I want my daughter to be good, too.”

April 25, 1969: Democrat and Chronicle (Rochester, NY) article about April 24, 1969 lecture at Hoyt Hall on the University of Rochester’s River Campus. Photo above.

Mid-1969

Around this time, a brief pair of interviews, conducted by mail, appear in a short-run fanzine. When asked what he has in store for the Fantastic Four, Lee responds: “Your guess is as good as ours.

We never know in advance.”

When asked his favorite Golden Age character, Kirby replies: “Captain America. That’s why I decided to revive him in the

March 4, 1969: Dayton Daily News (Dayton, OH) article “‘Inhumanity Bugs Surfer,” by Dan Geringer, Daily News Staff Writer

TURNiNG POiNT! April 1969

Avengers.”

On coming up with ideas for heroes: “Well, when originating Galactus for Marvel, it suddenly struck me how close to being a truly powerful Biblical type of figure he was. So I gave him a herald—a cosmic being whose awesome powers would be dwarfed by the great

Kirby’s final noteworthy character creation, the witch Agatha Harkness, debuts as he draws Fantastic Four #94 this month. Some interesting details emerge from examining stats of it in Jack’s files. Stan very closely followed Jack’s margin notes for the story, with a few exceptions.

Remember Kirby’s August 1966 essay for the Merry Marvel Messenger, which mentioned a “wicked Aunt Agatha”? Jack’s notes in FF #94 call Agatha “Aunty” throughout. One says, “There’s been stories about Aunty—” and another, “A great night to visit a halfaunt.” Stan’s final dialogue doesn’t play up a familial connection, and just calls her a “child-rearing specialist” who’s been retired for years, but couldn’t say “no” when she learned who the parents were.

Of Agatha’s house, Jack has Ben say, “I’ll bet Halloween started here.” It’s a great line, but Stan ignores it. Jack also calls the unnamed monster that chases the Trapster the “Nether Giant”—a wonderful name, but Stan likewise doesn’t use it.

In the margin notes, Kirby names Agatha’s cat “Satan”—Lee changes it to “Ebony.” And Jack has Agatha cast a spell to quiet the wind before the FF arrives; Stan wisely ignores it, to keep readers from discovering her magic powers too soon.

After a couple of years of run-of-the-mill plots (but decent stories), this is the last gasp of real creativity out of Kirby at Marvel. From the next issue-on, the plots

At top is Kirby ’s original de sign for Agatha Hark ness rendition below , and her published .

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Galactus... a kind of fallen angel I called the Silver Surfer.”

“How about this crook who wants to use a transplant—he’s old and he’s dying and he’s very rich, and he doesn’t want to die, and he wants to transplant his brain in a healthy body—.”

Asked who designed the costumes for the Fantastic Four, and why the Human Torch takes on a different look after FF #1: “I

“Great!”

designed the costumes. As to the Torch, I thought the modification would be more efficient and effective.”

“Hey, Stan, how about the body he wants to use being Thor?”

“Perfect, okay, Jack, you got it?”

Auction Block #1, 1969, interviews by Greg Theakston and Gordon Mills

A much more extensive interview with Lee is conducted for Cartoonist PROfiles #4 at this time, which contains Stan’s recollection of the plot conference for Thor #172, an issue Jack is drawing around May-June 1969.

If it’s an accurate account by Stan, it gives insight into how much creative back-andforth is going on between them at this late stage. He elaborates on whether r and pages. [this spread] Thor #172 cove plot discussions between writer and artist are verbal or written: “They can be either way. I verbalize them myself—I don’t have the time or the interest—I’m too bored to write the plot out and I have the kind of relationship with the artist where we sit and talk for five minutes about it. Later on, while the artist is making his drawings, he puts little notes on the side of the pages indicating what the hell he’s drawing, just to help me know what he’s doing in the various panels. Here’s an idea as to how I work with several of our artists: In the case of Gene Colan, I’ll write maybe a page of notes for myself, including all the things I want to discuss. Then I will phone Gene and he puts his tape recorder against the phone and I discuss the story with him, sort of reading the page I’ve written.

In the case of Jack Kirby, I will merely phone him, or he will phone me, as he did about two hours ago, and say, ‘Stan, I’m ready for the next story’.”

“At this point I don’t know what the heck the story is going to be—this is basically the thread, the skeleton outline— that’s all that I discussed with Jack. He will send back 20 pages drawn as he sees it.

“I will then write the copy. Then in pencil I indicate where the balloons go on the artwork, I number each balloon, and then on a sheet of paper I type the dialogue with numbers corresponding to the balloons I’ve indicated. I don’t letter in the dialogue myself in the strip. The letterers don’t have the remotest idea where to put these balloons—when the writer indicates the balloons, he can design the page nicely and complement the artwork. I know that if a panel has a lot of beautiful artwork, I’ll keep the dialogue sparse—if there’s a dull panel, I’ll write a lot of dialogue to fill up the panel. This is the reason I said

“He’s calling from California and we both start cold. I’ll say, ‘What book are you talking about?’ And he says, ‘Thor—is that the one we need next?’ ‘Yeah.’ And so the conversation goes back and forth.”

“What do you think we ought to do?”

“Well, let’s bring back that girl he used to be in love with; that’s a good idea.”

“Suppose he tries to save her but he doesn’t want her to know it’s him saving her and at the end she figures, ‘Gee, it’s funny; Thor never did come to help me’—not knowing it was really him who saved her.”

“Great idea, but what do we save her from?”

“Oh, that’s right—we need a villain.”

“Well, let’s see—who haven’t we used, or should we make up a new one?”

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a while ago that even a good writer may not be able to write comics—because this is something that no writer even thinks he has to contend with.

There are so many of those little things involved.

The artists don’t even think much about the balloons—they’re so good that they automatically, subconsciously—they’ll leave enough space on top. The writer, of course, has to have a sense of knowing about how many words will fit into the space which has been allowed for the balloon.

Next the script and the artwork go to the lettering man—he puts the dialogue in and then the strip goes to the inker. The inker could be the man who penciled the strip or it could be a different inker.

In our case, it’s usually a different inker.

“Years ago when I was writing all the books, I just couldn’t write fast enough—it took me 12 minutes to type a page, so if I was doing 20 pages, it would take four hours to type a story. And there might be an artist waiting for one story while I was finishing another—and I couldn’t afford to let that man sit around doing nothing. So in desperation I would say to him, ‘Look, I don’t have time to write your script but your story is going to deal with Doctor Doom who comes to town, etc., why don’t you start drawing it and I’ll put the dialogue in later?’ With this method, the artist was kept busy while I was typing the script . After a while I realized that this was a great way to do it. The artist could now create; he wasn’t just blindly following what the writer did. And the artist could envision this better than the writer. The artist could play up what he considered pictorially interesting. Then the writer could be inspired by the artist’s drawing. For instance, it’s easier for me to write copy looking at a drawing than it is to write copy looking at a sheet of blank paper. No other companies want to work this way—although I think it’s wonderful. The other editors feel they would lose control, and many other artists feel that they don’t want to do the writer’s job, etc.”

May-June 1969 (published Nov. 1969): Cartoonist PROfiles #4 interview with Stan Lee

Examine this last comment by Lee, and compare it to any other occupation’s reallife workplace. What Stan’s saying here is, instead of hiring (and paying) another employee when he is too busy to do the work himself, he shifts part of his workload to other existing employees (i.e., the artists), but doesn’t pay them additionally for it. So effectively, Martin Goodman is getting extra employees for free, rather than having to hire new ones.

This is a great deal for management, but lousy for the workers—it’s no wonder many of the artists come to resent this division of labor.

plot—the middle. And then there’s an ending to the plot. So it was broken down in three parts, the beginning, the middle, and the end... No details. ‘And then there’s a couple of bad guys here and there.’ So he left the characterization up to me. Once in a while he might describe a character, but mostly he gave me my heading. I could do whatever I wanted, so long as I kept within the margins he described in our conference.

“It was mostly up to me, I believe, and when a story was finished, I would just drive into the city and deliver it to him... I wouldn’t suggest any storylines at all.”

“Stan had taken on a huge writing load because the company had, a few years earlier, been having financial problems, and he decided to write most of his scripts. But he didn’t have time to sit down and type out a full-blown script, so he would dictate it to me over the telephone, and I would record it with a tape recorder or a wire recorder.

“He would say to me, ‘Well, it’s roughly like this.’ It’s amazing he had that kind of faith in me at that time. And he’d continue something like, ‘A couple of guys break into a bank and they steal some money.’ And then there was an ‘in-between’ of the Gene Colan:

2008: Gene Colan interviewed by Danny Fingeroth

July 1969

This month, a soon-to-be influential fan visits Kirby at home for the first time, and is there when Jack gets a phone call from Stan Lee. “We got to listen in on Jack’s end of a ‘plot conference’ which lasted only a minute or two—though, after it, he made a point of telling us that, on earlier issues, they’d spent a bit

Mark Evanier:

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Late 1969/early 1970 photo, used in the Marvelmania Foto Set. The man in the mask is Mark Evanier, who has a very vague memory that the unfinished page on Jack’s drawing board is from one of Kirby’s last Thor issues. I darkened the page up, and after much searching, found Mark was right; it’s Thor #179, page 7—Kirby’s final issue, done just before leaving Marvel.

Asked if he knows how a story will end when he starts it, he replies: “Yes. Oh, there are times when

I’ll run into a character like Galactus. When I created Galactus, I suddenly found myself confronted by God, and you can’t make a villain out of God, and you’ve got to ease yourself out of it somehow. I had to treat Galactus, who’s an omnipotent figure, in a manner befitting his stature. So there was a problem: How to get yourself out of that box, where you don’t have a villain, but you’re up against a figure so omnipotent and so awesome, that you’ve just got to back away from him, and ease away from him, and let him go his own way. That was the first time I found myself where I didn’t have a blackand-white situation, where there wasn’t a villain to hiss at and degrade and denigrate, or put in jail. I was up against a figure of a different type; an opponent, but not a villain in the accepted style of a villain.

“I’m a constant reader. I know mythology, but not as an expert. I’m a kind of man who knows maybe a little about everything, but certainly not a lot about anything.”

Prodded to describe Stan Lee, Kirby simply states:

“Stan Lee is my editor. Stan Lee, I guess, came to Marvel when I was doing Captain America in the 1940s.

He was a young fellow, and we were just nodding acquaintances. He was very nice, certainly, and we were nice to each other; we got along. That was about it; there was no evidence that we’d ever get together in any way as editor* and artist. It just happened that way, that’s all; I came back to Marvel and Stan Lee was editor. I went to work for Stan Lee, and whatever Stan Lee’s policies are, they’re my policies. Whatever kind of a job Stan Lee wants done, I will do that job. I feel that’s the artist’s job; to cooperate with the policy of the publishing house. I’ve always done that.”

more time talking. He also relayed to us some news Stan had just told him of projects Marvel was planning and he offered the opinion, ‘Martin [Goodman] is charging off in all directions without a clue where he’s heading’.”

2007: Mark Evanier’s “Jack FAQs” column in Jack Kirby Collector #49

During this visit, Kirby is drawing Fantastic Four #97, which shows that, on FF at least, he is working six months ahead of its on-sale date at this point.

Stan gives Kirby a plug about his theatrical designs for a Julius Caesar play as he composes the Bullpen Bulletins page for January 1970 cover-dated releases: “We’re gonna frame all the great newspaper clippings that praised Jack’s artistry— and were good enough to mention [Marvel].”

*[Kirby could’ve easily said “writer” above, but instead specifically referred to Stan as “editor,” twice.

This has to be intentional.]

In discussing the source of ideas, he relates: “...it can come

any way. An idea can come from me, it can come from Stan, it can come from a reader. Sometimes we’ll get ideas expressed in letters from readers that we utilize in the comic. We’ll build a plot around that type of story. I feel that Stan Lee is very wise in looking over the letters from the readers, and keeping tabs on the progress that the character is making. Sometimes we’ll do too many science-fiction stories, and we’ll find that the reader is ready for some other kind of events, so we’ll take the character out of the science-fiction atmosphere, and put One of Kirby’s Julius Caes ar play designs. them back into a credible Earth atmosphere... I feel as Stan does, that these are real people.

“When I finish the pencils and I write the motivation on the side of the panels, I send it back to Marvel...”

August 1969

As he prepares the Bullpen Bulletins page for February 1970 cover-dated releases, Stan crows about the return of at least one wayward artist: “Guess who just called? Wouldja believe WANDERING WALLY WOOD? (We used to call him Wondrous till he took off for parts unknown.) Anyway, after a long pow-wow, there’s a chance that you’ll be seeing WW’s wizardry between the covers of some Marvel mags once again—where it has always belonged! (Now if only a cat named S.D. would dig up our phone number again!— Oh well, we can always dream!)”

Out in California, Jack Kirby is interviewed by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld, and provides some fascinating insight into his thoughts and working processes: “I feel the kind of things

we do for comics are films and movies. I see myself competing with the movie camera, and I see myself creating a movie. I must admit it’s a kind of a John Henry operation; and I’ll talk over a story with Stan Lee, but the plot has to be worked out here. It’s got to be worked out on paper, the gimmicks have to be worked out, and everything has to dovetail. So it’s all worked out here, and I write the captions for the motivation of the story in the margin of the paper. Then it goes to Marvel, and the dialogue is written in, and the story is sent on to the letterer and inker, and processed down to the engraver.”

August 1969: Jack Kirby interviewed by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld

His faster schedule means he can take on additional work at this point, including the story “The Monster” for Chamber of Darkness #4. But Kirby’s original version of the story goes through numerous revisions in the Marvel offices before publication, and he is required to redraw several panels—and to change the original 104

ending, that has Kirby and Lee be the surprise narrators in its final panel. That ending is in keeping with a recurring motif of the title, which has the creators often narrating the stories (Lee himself was the M.C. of a story in issue #1). Why this gets rejected is still a mystery, as the original story by Kirby is solid, and more remarkable than what finally sees print.

he draws. After it’s been discussed with the front office in New York, he draws it out and notes his comments in the margins.

So complex is the plotting on his stories that he must be sent photostats of his penciled pages after lettering and before inking... since it will be several months before the issue is out and he must have further stories in the works by then.”

October 1969: Marvelmania Magazine #1, “Spotlight on Jack Kirby” (presumably written by Mark Evanier, editor)

November 1969

After two years of discovery, on November 5, Joe Simon signs a Settlement Agreement stating that all his work for Timely Comics was done as work-for-hire, ending his fight to renew the copyright on Captain America Comics #1–10. Simon receives $3,750 for part of the settlement, but the much larger balance is funneled to him through his attorney, per Marvel’s wish.

Martin Goodman had, in 1966, convinced Kirby that he was being left out by Simon, and to sign a deposition describing the creation of Captain America in terms favorable to Marvel, with the understanding that Kirby will receive a payment equal to whatever Simon receives. As Joe would reveal decades later in his book The Comic Book Makers, Goodman paid most of Simon’s settlement directly to Simon’s attorney to shortchange Kirby, by paying him only the same smaller $3750 amount that Simon directly received.

September 1969

As he writes his “Stan’s Soapbox” column for the March 1970 cover-date releases, Lee makes a point to convey the Final panel of Kirby’s unused version of “The importance of the artist at Monster” for Chamber of Darkness #4—perhaps a Marvel: “Each week brings final peace offering to Lee, or a fond farewell. Why it was scrapped is anyone’s guess. hundreds of letters asking exactly how we produce our mags... First, the artist and the writer have a story conference, because, unlike other comic-mag publishers, Marvel believes the artist contributes as much to the story as the writer does. Then, once the plot details have been worked out, the artist goes off by his lonesome and draws the strip in pencil—drawing it any way he pleases, since the script hasn’t yet been written... Next, the penciled drawings are given to the writer, who creates the dialogue balloons, captions, and any other copy needed.”

October 1969

Stan includes this mention in the Bullpen Bulletins page for April 1970 cover-dated releases: “And how’s this for an eye-opener? JACK (KING) KIRBY has done both the script and the penciling for a dynamite thriller in the current ish of Chamber of Darkness! For those of you who never knew that the Jolly One is as gifted a writer as he is an artist, this’ll be a real serendipity.”

In his upcoming 1970 Changes magazine interview, Stan says, “I would think the fact that there’s a sort of serendipity, there is surprise.

You don’t expect to find a comic book being written as well as we try to write at Marvel.” So he knows that the definition of “serendipity” is “an aptitude for making desirable discoveries by accident,” and Kirby could’ve taken it as an implication that his story is accidentally good. Since “The Monster” goes through massive revisions before publication, Lee is praising a story that isn’t wholly Jack’s, but largely his own—and one that may’ve been a last-ditch olive branch from Jack to Stan, as it originally ended with their friendly cameo appearance together, which is removed by Stan. It would seem, at this point, there is no reconciling their relationship.

I feel that one thing is starting to becoming evident in fandom circles: It is no accident that Kirby is the driving creative force at Marvel, as made clear in Marvel’s own fan publication: “Kirby deserves credit for the plotting of the comics

In the heat of the 1966 Cap fight, Simon had created a parody of Marvel Comics and Lee for Sick #48. Note the reference to Steve Ditko (“Dripko”).

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“Oh, I had the copyright. It’s right here. The first ten issues. We went through the whole works. Very complicated pre-trial examinations, and Goodman hired a very distinguished law firm, we had a settlement... This is a very complicated story, and it turns out some of the dirty little angles Marvel pulled... On Kirby, not on me...

Very dirty. They got him on their side. Even Kirby doesn’t know the reason I settled. You know how a copyright works if there are two authors? One author renews, the other author is entitled to complete 50% of all negotiations, profits, sales, that type of thing. You know I told them... what they did to Kirby on that Captain America thing was disgusting. Disgusting.”

tion manager Sol Brodsky keeps on a shelf. It includes a sketch of a character that looks nothing like the published version, with some handwritten notes. I’m dating this, based on Shooter’s own recollections, and that his inking tryout is on an unused page from Fantastic Four #94, which Kirby would’ve drawn in April-May of 1969.

1986: Joe Simon interviewed by Gary Groth in The Comics Journal #107

[1982] “I was living here in California, in Irvine. I get a message that Carmine Infantino is out in California and wants me to come up to his hotel. To make it short, they wanted me to save Superman. I said, well, I wasn’t too happy with what was happening at Marvel. I thought, maybe this is the time to change.”

Joe Simon:

December 1969

Kirby goes to New York and unsuccessfully tries to negotiate a new contract with Marvel/Perfect Film. By this point, he has already met with DC Comics editorial director Carmine Infantino to make a presentation of his New Gods concepts, and discuss the possibility of moving over to DC:

As Kirby draws and writes Chamber of Darkness #5 this month, a group of fans visit the Kirby home in Orange County, California, where Jack’s asked if he’ll be doing any writing for Marvel: “Well, if

I’m assigned that kind of thing, I’ll do it.”

On why Kirby stopped drawing Captain America: “I understand that Jim Steranko wanted to do Captain America. During a conference with Stan, we did talk about it, and Stan happened to mention it. And I didn’t have any objections to it. Certainly, organizationally, like any other artist, I do the artwork that I’m assigned to do. And Stan was considering hiring Jim to do Captain America, and he asked me what I thought of it, and I thought it was fine. I think that Captain America done by any competent artist can’t be hurt, and can only be made more interesting.”

Asked how he got started with Lee and Marvel, Kirby jokes: “I just went back to Marvel and Stan Lee was the editor. He still is, as far as I know.”

March 1982: Comics Scene #2 Kirby interview, conducted by Howard Zimmerman

“[Kirby] trotted out these three pieces, the New Gods, Mister Miracle, and Forever People. He said, ‘These I want to do but I won’t do them for Marvel’.”

Carmine Infantino:

Feb. 28, 1999: Carmine Infantino interviewed by Jon B. Cooke, for Comic Book Artist #1

Kirby returns home from New York with only an agreement to write and draw two full-length Inhumans issues, and to draw the first issue of a new Ka-Zar book—and since he couldn’t get a better deal from Marvel, he finalizes and signs his contract with DC Comics while he is there.

For the Bullpen Bulletins page he prepares this month, Lee shamelessly solicits plot ideas from readers, in a long questionnaire for fans to mail in. In the letter’s page in Fantastic Four #99, written at the same time, Stan’s almost desperate reply states: “And believe us, after all the plots we’ve used since 1961—it’s the second hundred issues that’re gonna be the hardest.”

Kirby’s understanding of the production of the Bullpen Bulletins page is described as: “I believe that Stan Lee has some men

assigned to it. Stan Lee designs the mood of whatever is said in the Bulletin, and he decides what sort of material to integrate for that particular issue... Stan’s Soapbox is, I guess, his personal views... working at home doesn’t keep you in close contact with the office, but it’s a casual contact and it’s a necessary contact... we don’t discuss everything when I talk to Stanley. We talk about story, we talk about drawing, we talk about sales policy.”

And does he plan to stay with Marvel? “I can’t say. I might slip on a banana peel tomorrow and that would be it.”

As fans see Kirby’s concept drawings for his New Gods characters, the obvious question is, will those be used at Marvel? “I’ll sug-

gest them and maybe hope that it comes to fruition. And it depends on the outlook at the time.

“Fulfillment, completion. Perhaps it’ll come to some conclusion.

It might be good, it might be bad. It might be accepted, it might be rejected. But it will be concluded in some way.”

November 1969: Shel Dorf and fans interview Jack Kirby at the Kirby home in Orange County, California

“After Jack moved out to L.A. at some stage, Stan called me into his office, and told me Jack had some new characters he wanted to do, some new concepts and ideas. And Stan was very happy wanting to keep [him] on Thor and Fantastic Four. I’ve always had the feeling that it may have been Jack thinking of offering Marvel things like the New Gods.”

Roy Thomas:

The first visit by San Diego fans to Jack’s studio on Nov. 9, 1969. Above front (holding a swee-eee-t Kirby Captain America drawing): Barry Alphonso. Left to right, behind: Dan Stewart, Bob Sourk, Richard Alf, Jack Kirby, Shel Dorf, and Wayne...? (sorry, I’m not sure of his last name). Photo, milk, and cookies

by Roz Kirby.

September 1997: Roy Thomas interviewed by Jim Amash, published in The Jack Kirby Collector #18

Late 1969

While seeking inking work, Jim Shooter briefly sees Kirby’s original presentation board for Spiderman at Marvel, among a stack of rejected and unused pencil pages produc106

Get These to Kirby: STAT!

A look at which photostats Stan Lee gave to Jack Kirby in the 1960s, and why, by John Morrow, with Shane Foley’s commentary Since Kirby is so intimately involved in new character creation and plotting across Marvel’s entire line in the 1960s, Lee will regularly provide him with photostats of current and past issues, to make sure he keeps new stories within established continuity, and can keep track of his continued stories when starting a new issue. What’s listed here isn’t a full accounting of the stats Kirby received (either handed off in-person during his bi-weekly Friday visits into Manhattan, or delivered by courier or mail)—but these ended up in his hands for a reason, and below are my best guesses for why.

There are three physical kinds of stats in Kirby’s files: Ones printed on paper equivalent to tracing paper, ones on paper like thermofaxes, and finally true photostat paper (which is slick, gives the best quality reproduction, but is more expensive to produce). Until Marvel gets its own stat camera in 1967 (which Herb Trimpe operates in the offices), Marvel has to send out to have them made, at great expense. So they aren’t spending that money unless it is important.

Early on, Kirby receives mostly stats of his pencil art, once it’s been lettered. Later, when he has a longer lead time and after his move to California, most of what he receives is stats of the final fully inked and lettered pages. While many get lost or trashed over time (Kirby often uses them as scratch paper to jot down plot conference notes or his own story ideas, for example), let’s take a look at the stats we know of.

Daredevil #37 (with Gene Colan’s art and margin notes) Possible Reason: To segue into the Fantastic Four #73 Dr. Doom plotline (Dr. Doom recounts FF #60, and how he escaped after the end of it). FF #73 was to be a continuation of Daredevil #38, so almost certainly DD #37 would have been sent to Jack for reference—not that it would have helped Jack much, but I can think of no other reason than preparing Jack, the primary plotter, to carry out Stan’s desire to do the crossover. DD #38—the direct forerunner to FF #73, and on sale the same month—would not have been ready to send in time.

Thor #141 (cover stat only—looks pieced together from paste-ups, no original Kirby work on it) Possible Reason: Unsure, since Replicus wasn’t used later—but Stan wouldn’t know that. Maybe Jack got the reference in case he wanted to use him again. After all, it’s not as if Stan would know Replicus wasn’t returning, since a huge proportion of the plots were inspired by Kirby.

While some stats allow us to clearly see Kirby’s margin notes (as above, from Fantastic Four #66’s controversial “Him” storyline), others (such as from Fantastic Four #89 on the next page) don’t, due to the camera operator overexposing them.

Fantastic Four #3 (page 5 stat only) Possible Reason: It shows a diagram of FF headquarters. I think Stan would have hoped Jack might use stuff like this diagram more than he did. Also, Jack expanded the cut-away diagram in FF Annual #1—maybe this was sent to him when Annual #1 was being prepared.

Thor #150 (Triton back-up) and #152 (Black Bolt back-up) Possible Reason: These two, if sent much later, could’ve been to prepare Jack for his solo Inhumans series in Amazing Adventures. The same month Thor #152 came out, there is a Bullpen Bulletins note about new series being prepared for Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer and Ka-Zar. There was no mention of the Inhumans, but readers would have understood they were candidates from what had been said in FF letters pages. Why Jack would need reference at this stage I don’t know—he’d drawn the Inhumans heaps in the previous years, so maybe it was more to do with the story plots? I really think Stan was hedging his bets a bit around Jack at this time. I believe it was Jack who pulled the pin on the Inhumans’ origins series—it’s easy to see it’s his baby—while at the same time reducing his creative input into Thor, despite having five extra pages to work with. I think Stan knew Jack wasn’t happy with ten extra pages of Captain America too, instead of doing something like the Silver Surfer, though he’s always denied knowing anything like that.

Fantastic Four #44 and #46 (first Inhumans/Gorgon/Black Bolt) Possible Reason: For later appearances of the Inhumans in Fantastic Four.

Since these are the Inhumans’ first appearances, I can well believe they were sent for Jack to reference their costumes as well as the storyline.

Fantastic Four #48 (last page inked shot when Galactus appears for the first time) and #49 (full-issue stats in pencil) Possible Reason: So Kirby would get him right in FF #50 and continue the story continuity of the Galactus Trilogy, or Thor #132 or FF #74-77.

Fantastic Four #52 (first Black Panther) Possible Reason: So Jack would get him right in FF #53 or FF Annual #5.

Jack also briefly put the Panther in FF #60—but there he had his original mask with his mouth showing. Again, I think these stats may well be more for story continuity.

NOTE: The backs of some have rubber cement stains, showing silhouettes of animals possibly used for a collage: A giraffe, elephant, and kangaroo.

Thor #173 Possible Reason: Unsure, since the next issue was not continued, and Ulik didn’t come back before Kirby left. But again, Stan wouldn’t know that Ulik wasn’t returning—even if this is the time Stan was supposed to be providing plots to Kirby. Though, like the Inhumans, I wonder why Jack would need reference—Ulik was not a new character.

Fantastic Four #56 (cover stat only) Possible Reason: For Klaw’s design. Stan would not and could not know that Jack wasn’t going to want to draw him in a future issue.

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Fantastic Four #61 (page 12, showing Crystal leaving the Inhumans) and #62 (page 6, showing Crystal leaving to get help for Reed, and page 20, showing how the story should continue) Possible Reason: In addition to story continuity, as reminders to Jack for Crystal’s hair design— though Jack sure forgot it soon after these issues, so Stan’s references didn’t help. Maybe the #62, page 20 was reference for when and if Blastaar returned—Stan wanted to be prepared for the possibility.

Fantastic Four #64 (cover only) Possible Reason: So Jack can see the revised cover that replaced the rejected one. Why? No idea! Something to do with the fact that the Torch’s blast was changed to a fireball? Was that a Comics Code requirement that Stan wanted Jack to see?

Fantastic Four #65 (page 8 and page 15) Possible Reason: For future hot rod reference on page 8 (marked by Sol Brodsky), and showing “Good Alicia” on page 15 (also marked by Sol, and probably as a big hint that Stan would like to see them used again—a hint Jack totally ignores!).

later—maybe this is Stan’s hint to use him again.

If any Shield stat was needed by Jack, it would have been Strange Tales #135, with the first Helicarrier.

Possible Reason: To follow through for his work on the next issue (assuming Jack was taking two months between drawing each issue; maybe he drew two half-stories at once?).

Captain America #104 Possible Reason: Unsure.

Tales of Suspense #92 Possible Reason: Shows reference for Romita’s redrawn Agent 13 faces.

Tales to Astonish #67, 71, 74, 77 Possible Reason: Surely these are all for story continuity, since Kirby was putting together the plots. #67 was Ditko’s last issue, and Jack would need these to start layouts for the next issue. #77 had Kirby layouts for Romita, and he would need these to do layouts for Everett next issue.

Tales of Suspense #76, 78 Possible Reason: To show AIM correctly in future uses.

Tales of Suspense #91 by Gil Kane (GIl Kane’s margin notes are shown)

Fantastic Four #66 Possible Reason: For the “Him” storyline that ends in #67? It doesn’t really time out. They could send #65 in time for Jack to draw #67, but #66 would likely be too late to do any good, unless Stan rejected #67 and Jack had to redraw it at the last minute. And it doesn’t seem like they’d send the whole issue #66 stats, just for Him’s later appearance in Thor.

Fantastic Four #74, 76, and #77 (full issues) Possible Reason: #74-77 is a multi-issue story that was going to culminate with Jack’s origin for the Silver Surfer, which got scrapped because of Silver Surfer #1. So Kirby needed these to know how to continue the FF based on these past issues’ changes.

Fantastic Four #82, 85, 86, 87 Possible Reason: Unsure; for story continuity?

Fantastic Four #89, 90, 91, 93 Possible Reason: To pick up the Skrull plot threads that lead into next issue.

Fantastic Four #94 Possible Reason: For Agatha Harkness’s recurring role as Franklin’s nanny—even though Jack himself never drew Agatha again. However, Stan wouldn’t know that at the time.

Fantastic Four #95, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101 (full issues) Possible Reason: The last page on each of these inked stats has a blank “next issue” box, so Stan has no idea what’d be coming next. He probably wanted to keep Jack aware of past issues since he was in California, 3000 miles away.

Fantastic Four Annual #6 Possible Reason: As reference for Annihilus— but Jack just called him “villain” throughout. So Annihilus is Stan’s name—a real goody!

Strange Tales #138, 142, 144, and #147 Possible Reason: Stan’s note says to use the same barber, etc. as in Shield #2 (“important”).

We know Stan used to get annoyed at Jack tossing in great creations like the Wild Bill robot (Strange Tales #142), then ignoring it a page

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X-Men #3 Possible Reason: The Blob, this issue’s villain, returned in #7, so this was reference for him.

X-Men #7 (pages 5 and 7) Possible Reason: This was the first appearance of Cerebro, so as reference for future uses.

X-Men #15 (full issue stats of Jack’s layouts and margin notes) Possible Reason: Unsure, since #15 would be Jack’s last issue—but perhaps Stan didn’t know that at the time these were sent. H

1970 rvel’s int. Ma this po t Kirby o t g in u b build illion, l been its new o 60 m It’s al re up t er deal from from Lee a s e l t , sa t s e t b h a ig l s et he small over t can’t g ge and accumulated n r a L . s ituatio e s v e a h h owner t , s odman ble. by feel a ir n K e t d and Go n n u cade, a as” is r last de “house of ide edit fo per cr o r at his p f o ontrol c k c o a t l y tinued inabilit ion to his con and his is decis ations, ds to h ake to the e a r e c l , is e h t us helped ate and any he omics. their f e comp ion in c h it t s t o r p a e n dep O r e Numb

Departure perfectly sums up Kirby’s frustration with his time at Marvel Comics.

Lee puts his best spin on recent events as he preps the Bullpen Bulletins page for July 1970 coverdate releases: “We just had a visit from JACK (KING) KIRBY, who winged his way eastward from sunny California to rap it up with Stan about the new INHUMANS series It’s clear what’s on Kirby’s mind; final panels to Amazing the Jolly One will be proAdventures #1 [above] and [below] Fantastic Four #102. ducing in the forthcoming Amazing Adventures.

Sly ol’ Stan not only conned Jack into doing two yarns at once, but even cajoled the King into doing the script as well as the penciling for this great new series.”

I’d assume, instead of being talked into it, Kirby insisted on dialoguing “The Inhumans,” so any plans he had for them wouldn’t be usurped, like his ideas for the Silver Surfer, Him, the Watcher, and Galactus had been.

In his “Stan’s Soapbox” column, Lee states this about most of his non-Kirby collaborations: “It takes about half a day to create the plot for an average 20-pager. That includes the hour or two spent in discussing the various story angles by the writer and penciler. Then, the penciler begins to draw the strip, and most pencilers average about two pages a day of peerless drawing. Of course there are speed demons like Kirby, Colan, and Buscema who can whip out three pages daily... Finally, the writer gets the penciled pages and usually spends about two full working days putting the dialogue and captions into a 20-pager. (Averaging 10 pages daily.)”

But there’s been no two-hour plot conferences with Kirby in years, as the recent stories in Fantastic Four show. As Lee shapes up the FF #100 letter column, he inserts an almost hopelesssounding “Personal Note From Stan And Jack” to kick it off: “Stan and Jack hereby pledge to continue unabated their efforts to see that the FF continues to earn its title as ‘the World’s Greatest Comics Magazine!’”

The number of recent pan letters must’ve provoked this blurb, to stem the tide of negative responses about the lackluster FF title of late. Does Stan not have enough positive ones to fill the

January 1970

Jack Kirby draws Silver Surfer #18 instead of Thor #178. The switch served multiple purposes: To give a shot in the arm to the failing Surfer’s comic, as a lead-in to Kirby’s upcoming Inhumans series (those characters are guest-stars), and to give John Buscema a try-out on Thor. A fourth rationale may’ve been considered: To assign Jack the Surfer book as a too-little, too-late peace offering from Stan, who’s discouraged that his own Christ-like take on the character has flopped. Whatever the case, the relationship is unrepairable at this point, and the final page of Silver Surfer #18 [below]

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that with Kirby a lot. Most of the plots, he had much more time with them than I did. When he did give me the artwork, a lot of times the plots were not the way I would have wanted to do it. So I would change them in the copy and the story ended up not being what I’m sure Kirby expected.”

2000: “Stan Lee Looks Back: The Comics Legend Recalls Life with Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and Heroes,” by Will Murray, Comics Scene vol. 3 #1

As Kirby is instructed to split his two Inhumans stories and one Ka-Zar story into ten-page installments (eventually used in Amazing Adventures #1–4 and Astonishing Tales #1–2), DC Comics prepares a house ad claiming “The Great One Is Coming!” In a nose-thumbing at Marvel, they run this ad in their April 1970-shipping releases; it doesn’t mention Kirby by name, but slyly brags that they’ve gotten him to jump ship to DC. Late this month or in early February, Lee is interviewed by Mike Bourne for Changes magazine. Based on Stan’s comment “...I’m enjoying doing the Silver Surfer,” I believe this interview is conducted around the time Kirby completed Silver Surfer #18, but before Marvel officially cancelled the title.

“Actually, we’re stuck with the [Silver Surfer’s] name, because when he first appeared, he appeared as an incidental character in a Fantastic Four story. Jack Kirby just threw him in—I think the name was Jack’s—and called him The Silver Surfer. I thought it sounded good and used him. Had I known that we would end up doing with him what we’re doing today, I would have taken more pains to get a name that was more applicable. But actually, nobody else seems to mind the name. It’s easy to remember and it’s almost a put-on.

And I haven’t had any complaints about it.”

The negative fan mail starts to mount, as shown in various issues from Fantastic Four #90–102.

Jan.-Feb. 1970: Stan Lee interviewed by Mike Bourne for Changes magazine (published April 15, 1970)

page? A reply to one particularly harsh letter says, “Although we’ve had a few letters which were as severely critical of the current FF epics as yours, the fact remains that we try to look for whatever kernel of truth there may be in each and every comment we receive—and as a matter of fact, we’d already taken some of them to heart even before your letter descended upon us.”

It goes on to state that the FF is reverting to more of a 6-to-9-panel page layout as readers have requested, which is the case in #100. But by #101, Jack is back to his usual more open layouts, either forgetting, or ignoring, the editorial dictate. This may play a role in Lee rejecting the original story Kirby submits for #102.

The dysfunction happening in FF at this point is explained later

by Lee: [2000] “Very often you don’t like what the story is and you say, ‘I’m going to find a way to make it good.’ In the later days, I did

February 1970

Jack Kirby submits Thor #179, but this final Kirby issue seems to get rushed through the Bullpen, with a few odd pages inked by John Verpoorten, that stand out from the ones Vince Colletta inks.

So it may have been meant for #178 and only partially finished, due to Kirby being pulled away to draw Silver Surfer #18. The storyline immediately follows the end of #177, and its eventual Neal Adams cover is no doubt chosen to transition the look to Adams’ work on #180–181, after Kirby leaves the strip.

Jack is drawing Fantastic Four #103 this month, his final issue (which would see print in issue #102). As he mails the pages off to Marvel Comics’ offices in New York, he prepares for a career-changing phone conversation with Stan Lee. 110

commercial issue into print by the time knowledge of his quitting becomes public. At the end of #101, it says “Next: The Sub-Mariner”, so Stan is dialoguing it after Jack’s March 6 resignation and page delivery.

“I’ll never forget when I walked into Stan’s office and heard that Jack left. I thought they were going to close up! As far as I was concerned, Jack was the backbone of Marvel.”

John Buscema:

Self-portrait drawn just after leaving Marvel. It appears in DC’s Jimmy Olsen #134.

Nov. 18, 1997: John Buscema interviewed by Jon B. Cooke

“I know Stan was very upset, and a little depressed when he called me and Sol into the office to tell us Kirby had just called to quit.

When he quit, he was already working for DC. He had already set up everything else before he even told Stan he was thinking of quitting. I think this is because Jack bottled it all in, so when he quit, he had to do it as a clean, total break, with no niceties.

“You can see where almost anybody would be upset in that kind of circumstance... [Stan] knew there were some difficulties, but he certainly didn’t see it coming that Jack was quitting, or I never got any indication of it... with Jack, he sort of bottled it up, and Stan knew there were problems, but he didn’t know how deep they ran.”

Roy Thomas:

September 1997: Roy Thomas interviewed by Jim Amash, published in The Jack Kirby Collector #18

Is Kirby’s resignation a surprise to Lee? [2001] “Yeah. In fact, when he was in California, I remember we were still very friendly. I came to visit him a few times at his house. I even went to his... I forget now, his son’s wedding or his daughter’s wedding. We were very friendly until the very end.”

TURNiNG POiNT! March 1970

Oct. 11, 2001: Jack Kirby Collector #33 interview by Jon B. Cooke

On March 6, Jack Kirby calls Stan Lee and quits Marvel Comics, just after his final Fantastic Four pencil pages arrive in the mail. June 1970 cover-dated issues are on the stands (including Fantastic Four #99)—Kirby is working four-to-five months ahead of the on-sale date at this point, leaving Lee roughly one month’s leeway in order to shelve the FF #102 story Kirby submitted the previous month (which is used later for FF #108).

Kirby’s final panel of his final FF story simply says “WAR!”, which, assuming Jack wrote that on his pencil page, conveys his mindset as he leaves for DC Comics, intent on proving what he can do away from Marvel and Lee.

“When Jack left, the professional loss was incredible because of the thousands of times Stan would say to me, ‘Y’know, if Jack were here, I’ll bet we could do this, or that.’ It was like Martin Goodman saying to Stan, ‘I just realized that Westerns are the new trend.’

Joan Lee:

[1989] “Actually, my own fears probably prodded me into an act of cowardice... I should have told Stan Lee to go to hell and found some other way to make a living, but I couldn’t do it. I had my family [to support].”

Summer 1989 (published Feb. 1990): The Comics Journal #134 interview conducted by Gary Groth

Lee has moved Kirby’s FF #103 story to #102, to goose the flagging popularity of the FF comic—by inserting an issue that features the recognizable Sub-Mariner and Magneto. This also gets Jack’s more

Neal Adams, upon taking over the Thor comic after Jack’s departure, hides a clever commentary on the Kirby/Lee relationship in a panel from issue #180.

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what I’d like you to do: I would like you to come over with me and help me. What I want to do is, I want to write more than I draw.’

‘Don’t worry, I’ll have four new ones for you by next week,’ Stan would say. He missed Jack because there were so many more things they could have done together.”

“In other words, he envisioned writing a line of books, like Stan, and he wanted to get me to draw some of his main characters. I might have worked on New Gods or Mister Miracle... probably Mister Miracle. He said he’d love to have me do the pencils for his stuff, and we could set up some kind of a stable.

He said, ‘I got some great inkers ready to work on your stuff. It would

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

This leaves Stan with the sad task of announcing Kirby’s departure as he writes the Bullpen Bulletins page for Fantastic Four #102: “Remember a few years back when Steve Ditko suddenly left the hallowed halls of Marvel to seek his fortunes elsewhere?

Well, at the time of this writing (early in March), Jack Kirby has unexpectedly announced his resignation from our surprised but stalwart little staff.”

This issue’s Bullpen Bulletins heavily promotes John Romita— the man Stan turns to, as when Ditko left Spider-Man, to take over drawing the Fantastic Four when Kirby leaves—with a lengthy biography. In echoes of Ditko trying to persuade Kirby to jump ship in 1966, Jack makes an offer to his fellow Marvel artist.

John Romita:

be great for me, and I think I can make it worth your while. It would be a terrific idea.’ And I

said, ‘You know, I got to think it over, Jack.’ I told Virginia, and she almost had a heart attack. She said, ‘First of all, if you go with Jack, you’re going to be a Jack Kirby clone.’

And I said, ‘Well, I don’t know how. I’m not going to be working on his artwork. He’s going to be writing and I’m going to be penciling’—

“Just a day or two after Kirby left Marvel, he called me up and said, ‘John, here’s the story—you know I’m going to DC.’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ And he said, ‘Here’s

Always the kidder, Marie Severin creates a makeshift shrine to Kirby using a cigar butt, which is still pinned up in this July 1970 photo.

although he might have broken them down for me. But he could break down a hundred stories for me and it wouldn’t affect me, because he didn’t do details on his breakdowns. He did silhouettes and rough scribbles. She said, ‘No, you’re going to end up working for Kirby.

Your personality will be buried and nobody will know anything about you.’ I couldn’t argue with it, but I was tempted.”

2001: Interview with John Romita, by Roy Thomas

Romita will eventually assume the role of Marvel’s art director, but Lee at this time has someone else in mind: [1998] “The one thing I remember and felt bad about when Jack left, was that I had been thinking about—and maybe I even talked to him about it—that I wanted to make Jack my partner in a sense; I wanted him to be the art director and I thought that he could serve in that function and I would serve as the editor.

Maybe this was way earlier, but I was disappointed when he left because I always felt that Jack and I would be working there forever and doing everything.

“But I wasn’t thinking of Jack being art director because I would be leaving; I just thought that it would be great working with him in that capacity. I was serving as art director and thought that he could take it off my shoulders, so I could just worry about the stories. It probably wouldn’t have worked out anyway, because I might have disagreed with him about things—not about his own work, but if we started critiquing other artists’ work, Jack and I might have looked at it differently. So it might just be that I never could have

On March 12 , 1970, Don an announcing Kirby’s depa d Maggie Thompson rush out an rture from M “Extra” editio arvel to DC. n of their fa ©1970 Don nzine Newf and Maggie angles, Thompson.

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worked with any art director who would function the way I did, because I guess no two people see anything the same.”

“Industrywide, the volume is not going up. I think the comic book field suffers from the same thing TV does. After a few years, an erosion sets in. You still maintain loyal readers, but you lose a lot more readers than you’re picking up. That’s why we have so many super-hero characters, and run super-heroes together. Even if you take two characters that are weak sellers and run them together in the same book, somehow, psychologically, the reader feels he’s getting more. You get the Avenger[s] follower and the Sub-Mariner follower. Often you see a new title do great on the first issue and then it slides off...”

Martin Goodman:

May 1998: “Stan the Man and Roy the Boy: A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas,” Comic Book Artist #2

Lee is no doubt correct here. All their differences aside, Kirby was once Marvel’s art director, in 1940. He chose to instead spend the rest of his career working for himself, rather than a publisher like Martin Goodman. Even if no issues had ever occurred between he and Lee, Kirby knew he wasn’t “family” and couldn’t trust Goodman, so taking a full-time position, especially now that the company was under new management, would’ve brought no security or job satisfaction: [1987] “...the Marvel outfit will give credit to nobody except Stanley, see? Stanley’s one of the family... And there’s nothing you could do about it because he was the publisher’s cousin...”

May 2, 1971: New York Times article

Lee makes major shake-ups in light of Kirby leaving, without saying this is the reason for them: Romita is moving to Fantastic Four, Gil Kane is taking over Spider-Man from Romita, and Neal Adams will take over Thor.

Dec. 4, 1987 (published Jan 22, 1988): UCLA Daily Bruin interview, conducted by Ben Schwartz.

The bombshell news leaks out, and spreads throughout fandom.

On March 12, Don and Maggie Thompson publish an unprecedented “Extra” edition of their fanzine Newfangles announcing Kirby is leaving Marvel.

Upon learning of the departure—and perhaps as a sign of solidarity—Marvel mainstay Marie Severin pins a Kirby cigar butt to a cork-board in the bullpen. In the spring, Mark Evanier and Steve Sherman officially become Kirby’s assistants to help with his new DC Comics assignments.

April 1970

Clearly shaken, Lee tries to rally the troops as he composes the Bullpen Bulletins page for October 1970 cover-dated releases: “Let’s face it—this is probably mighty Marvel’s proudest and most crucial hour!!

Even here, at the world-famous House of Ideas, we’ve never made so many sudden, cataclysmic changes; or taken so many unexpected, unprecedented gambles! Never before has any leading magazine company dared to switch the artist line-ups of some of the world’s best-selling mags!”

“Stan’s Soapbox” column states: “They’ve been good years, exciting years, years of challenge and achievement. But now, as we face our second decade... the challenges are greater than ever—though, hopefully, our achievements will be great, too. We’re now faced with the task of proving that our past success wasn’t merely a flash-in-the-pan; of proving that we can once again rekindle the excitement, the wonder, and the dazzling dynamism that have made Marvel a household word wherever magazines are read.

We hope we can do it. We think we can do it.

We’re gonna knock ourselves out trying to do it. But win, lose or draw, we’ll be giving it the best we’ve got...”

Bullpen Bulletins page for October 1970 cover-dated releases, written by Stan Lee

This rattled tone is due not just to Kirby’s departure to the competition, but also Marvel struggling in the marketplace at this point, both sales-wise, and creatively.

A page from Kirby’s rejected Fantastic Four #102 story, which will get reworked into a story eventually published in issue #108.

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May 1970

In writing the Bullpen Bulletins page for December 1970 cover-date releases, “Stan’s Soapbox” becomes “Stan Lee’s Soapbox,” in an apparent effort to bolster Stan Lee’s name recognition—either

by Lee’s choice, or by his new corporate bosses’.

DC Comics plays up Kirby’s name as well throughout Summer 1970, as “Kirby is Coming!” blurbs appear in various DC titles. Also, Kirby’s three new core DC books are mentioned (with bullet art) in the n Lee’s Soapbox.”

1970 San Diego “Stan’s Soapbox” becomes “Sta Comic-Con program book. In conjunction with Kirby’s return, DC features reprints of his work in three issues of Challengers of the Unknown (#75–77) before putting the title on hiatus. At the same time, World’s Finest Comics #197 [above] features a headlined 1950s Green Arrow story reprint by Kirby.

Before the summer is over, longtime Marvel production manager Sol Brodsky (“sky”) leaves

A philosophical Lee interjects this: “We can’t resist closing with this streamlined little saying we just stumbled over: ‘Life is what happens to you—while you’re making other plans!’”

Bullpen Bulletins page for November 1970 cover-dated releases, written by Stan Lee

“In the very early ’70s, when Stan was having trouble with [Martin] Goodman near the end, he met with DC about going over there. I didn’t learn about it till later. He told me, ‘If I’d gone to DC, I’d have taken you with me.’ Of course, I might’ve decided to stay at Marvel and become editor-in-chief a year or so early.

Still, I’d probably have gone with him; I felt a great loyalty to Stan. Besides, DC had all these heroes I liked!”

Roy Thomas:

2001: Roy Thomas comment, while interviewing John Romita

June 1970

Kirby pushes for the payment due him from Marvel, equal to what Joe Simon received in November 1969 for settling the Captain America suit. On June 29, Marvel sends a letter confirming Kirby will sign a release form like the one Simon signed, and in return Kirby will receive $2535 (the same $3750 amount Simon received directly, less the $1000 balance that remains on his 1968 loan, plus interest). But Kirby doesn’t sign the release and get his payment for a full two years.

es. by’s new titl

s, touting Kir DC Comics ad

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the company, and forms Skywald Publications with Israel Waldman (“wald”), in reaction to Marvel’s current ownership changes.

Skywald’s first publication is cover-dated December 1970, and for their short-lived comics line, The Sundance Kid #1–2 (published March-April 1971) contain Jack Kirby Western reprints from 1954’s Bullseye #2–3, and new art

by Bullpenners Dick Ayers and John Severin. After Sol’s departure, John Verpoorten is hired to replace him as Production Manager.

This is a major blow for Lee, as Brodsky is a longtime friend and fixture at Marvel. His voice is heard on the 1965 Merry Marvel Marching Society record. A caricature of Brodsky is among beach-goers gathered around the unconscious Namor in penciler Marie Severin’s splash page for 1969’s The Sub-Mariner #19. As an in-joke, Severin has drawn the Marvel staff (as well as three personal friends) as onlookers. Brodsky is the man in the Hawaiian shirt at lower right, gesturing to the police (and standing in front of a cigar-smoking Jack Kirby). There is apparently no ill-will by his

defection, as Brodsky will return to Marvel in mid1972, after Stan Lee as publisher convinces then-owner Cadence Industries’ board to create a new position for Sol as Vice President of Operations.

Jack Kirby speaking in 1970.

“The [1984 death] of Sol Brodsky affected Stan very greatly. Sol had been with Stan for decades as his closest assistant. He was the gentlest, nicest man in the whole wide world. I remember the sadness of Stan when any of them passed away because they were more than just workers to him—they were friends and great talents whom he would say could never be replaced.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

July 1970

The letters page of Thor #183 is written (presumably by someone other than Stan Lee, but Stan surely approved it), stating: “...when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby decided to do a series about the mighty Thor some years ago, they felt that they would take whatever liberties they deemed necessary in the interest of more viable plots.” Note that this is written well after Jack left Marvel for its main competitor, and his last issue of Thor saw print.

This month, Mark Evanier and Steve Sherman visit the Marvel offices in New York (they also stop by DC Comics while they are in town). Evanier and Sherman are there as representatives of Marvelmania International, and Mark is the editor of Marvelmania magazine at the time, dealing with Stan and Roy regularly.

According to Stan’s follow-up blurb in the January 1971 cover-dated releases, “They’re a couple of young, zingy, with-it guys” who are in town to attend the 1970 New York Comicon. Marie Severin, John Romita and others at Marvel know the pair has accepted positions as Kirby’s assistants, and while Evanier doesn’t recall if they specifically mentioned it to Lee, they aren’t keeping it a secret.

August 1970

At this year’s San Diego Comic-Con, Kirby takes questions from the audience about his departure from Marvel Comics: “Why’d

I quit? ...The situation demanded it. That’s the only thing I can tell you. The details would bore you. But I can tell you that the situation demanded it. I do what I have to do. I can’t vacillate. I’m not an indecisive man. I do what I have to do, and, y’know, I did it at that time...

Somehow, there’s something happening at the company where you are that makes you feel... that’s all you can do for it. And that’s not enough, so I go somewhere else.

“I had the latitude of doing more than one magazine at Marvel, or at any other place. I just felt that the situation demanded my leaving, so I left... in the case of Marvel, most of the plots, I handle myself.

It’s easy enough to do it after thirty years. I would discuss it with Stan, I would tell him what I was going to put in it, and it was either approved, or I would change it, you know, to maybe further the plot. In my case, it was done that way. I’ve always done my own stories. I’ve

Memories of a happier time: Drawn during Summer 1969 is this Marie Severin splash page for Sub-Mariner #19. Besides showing Sol Brodsky in the Hawaiian shirt at lower right, Marie depicts herself, Herb Trimpe, Bill Everett, Mike Esposito, John Verpoorten, John Severin, Roy Thomas, Larry Lieber, John Romita, and others. Lee is at the left side of the page, and Kirby is at lower right with a cigar and towel.

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never done anything else.

“Technically [working for DC] doesn’t differ, because I work from my house, I’ve got a studio in the house, and I send the stuff in. That’s the way it was at Marvel. I would live in some suburb, and maybe once in a while, twice a month, I’d go into the city, see all the people, and get the heck scared out of me, and run home.”

“I can’t predict Marvel’s future. I won’t.”

Asked whether Stan Lee added revolutionary ideas to comics, Kirby’s reply is, “I’d say that Stan

When asked what part he played in creating the Marvel characters, Kirby responds: “Quite a substantial part. That’s all I’m gonna say... The Silver Surfer came out of a feeling; that’s the only thing I can say. When I drew Galactus, I just don’t know why, but I suddenly figured out that Galactus was God, and I found that I’d made a villain out of God, and I couldn’t make a villain out of him. And I couldn’t treat him as a villain, so I had to back away from him. I backed away from Galactus, and I felt he was so awesome, and in some way he was God, and who would accompany God, but some kind of fallen angel? And that’s who the Silver Surfer was. And at the end of the story, Galactus condemned him to Earth, and he couldn’t go into space anymore. So the Silver Surfer played his role in that manner.

And, y’know, I can’t say why; it just happened. And that was the Silver Surfer. I suppose you might call it—I don’t know, some kind of response to an inner feeling.”

Lee quoted me quite a good deal.”

August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

Just after this appearance, on August 25, Superman’s Pal, Jimmy Olsen #133 is published, with Kirby’s first ’70s work for DC.

Late 1970

This fall, Marvel prepares Fantastic Four #110, and works in what appears to be an unused Kirby collage page intended for Fantastic Four #75 or #76.

As Kirby gets entrenched at DC Comics and his new creations hit the newsstands, he discusses his reasons for switching companies: “I can only say that DC gave me my

own editing affairs, and if I have an idea I can take credit for it. I don’t have the feeling of repression that I had at Marvel. I don’t say I wasn’t comfortable at Marvel, but it had its frustrating moments and there was nothing I could do about it. When I got the opportunity to transfer to DC, I took it. At DC I’m given the privilege of being associated with my own ideas. If I did come up with an idea at Marvel, they’d take it away from me and I lost all association with it. I was never given credit for the writing which I did. Most of the writing at Marvel is done by the artist from the script . “[Fantastic Four] was my idea. It was my idea to do it the way it was; my idea to develop it the way it was.

I’m not saying that Stan had nothing to do with it. Of course he did. We talked things out. As things went on, I began to work at home and I no longer came up to the office. I developed all the stuff at home and just sent it in.

I had to come up with new ideas to help the strip sell. I was faced with the frustration of having to come up with new ideas and then having them taken from me. So, I was kind of caught in a box and I had to get out of that box, and when DC came along and gave me the opportunity to do it, I took it. I believe working for DC can lead to other experimentation and a better kind of comic book, and the kind of comic book that could lead to all sorts of different things.”

Late 1970 (published June 1971): Rocket’s Blast Comicollector #81 interview, by Bruce Hamilton

“I’m trying to get all [my themes] across in an entertaining sort of way... I can’t do it all in three or four issues.

At Marvel it took five years, and my problem was that I couldn’t do a simple story—I had to create an instant world in each magazine.”

Late 1970 Kirby interview by Mike Towry, from Train of Thought #5 Kirby’s depiction of the Microverse from Fantastic Four #75 is a dead ringer for this likely Kirby collage in FF #110.

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Proving Ground Kirby sketches by his backyard pool in 197 1.

Photo by Bill Bridges .

From the time Kirby leaves Marvel for DC, through the end of 1972, DC publishes 48 issues with Kirby’s work, compared to 106 issues at Marvel with Kirby reprints—more than a 2-to-1 ratio in Marvel’s favor. It actually gets worse later in Kirby’s stay at DC. In 1973, Marvel will unleash a third wave of reprint titles including such series as Marvel Double Feature, Marvel Spectacular, SHIELD, Tomb of Darkness, Human Torch, and Journey into Mystery, in addition to the continuing titles such as Marvel’s Greatest Comics, Marvel Super Heroes, Special Marvel Edition, and Mighty Marvel Western, all frequently featuring Kirby covers and stories. There is never a time in Kirby’s five-year absence that Marvel isn’t publishing more Kirby work than DC.

television, radio, movies, or what have you.”

January 20, 1971: National Cartoonists Society Roundtable discussion at the Lamb’s Club in NYC, with Stan Lee, Gil Kane, Will Eisner, John Goldwater, Sid Jacobson, Denny O’Neil, Murphy Anderson, and Howie Schneider.

“I do remember one thing [Stan] was frustrated about that had nothing to do with comics, and that’s when they brought out the magazine called Celebrity. It was truly spectacular—done on a shoestring budget—everyone loved it, but Martin was unwilling to put enough money into it to give it the right distribution. Stan felt it could have been another People. Stan had always thought Hollywood and films, but Martin Goodman would never put any money into it. It became a dead end for Stan.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

On January 31, Kirby gives an interview in Carmine Infantino’s DC Comics office in New York, where he’s asked how long he’s had the idea for New Gods: “Well, I guess for several years it’s probably

been in the back of my mind, but I’ve never sat down and worked it out, though I’ve always known it’s been there.”

On why he didn’t use these new ideas at Marvel, he says: “It’s not that I was cramped, but there were limitations which stopped me from going on. Over here I have the chance to go beyond them; I feel that whatever story there is to this ‘gods’ business, the ‘new’ gods or the ‘old’ gods, I feel that there is a story to them. I feel that there was an actual replacement of the ‘old’ gods by new ones which are relevant to what we see and hear.

“I was involved in what I was doing there and I feel that this would never have fit into what they were doing.

This is a whole new interpreKirby used a 1966 idea he formulated while still at Marvel, tation and it as the basis for his DC Comics New Gods series, and utilized cannot be told his concept art on the with shields first issue’s cover.

d at a May 1971 banquet.

Photo by Sal Amendola.

Lee accepts a “Shazam” awar

January 1971

On January 20, Lee speaks at a National Cartoonists Society gathering in New York City: “I would say that the comic book market is the worst market that there is on the face of the Earth for creative talent, and the reasons are numberless and legion. I have had many talented people ask me how to get into the comic book business. If they were talented enough, the first answer I would give them is, why would you want to get into the comic book business? Because even if you succeed, even if you reach what might be considered the pinnacle of success in comics, you will be less successful, less secure, and less effective than if you are just an average practitioner of your art in 117

and swords; it must be done with what we know and deal with what we worry about.”

Jan. 31, 1971 (Nov. 1971 publication date): Comic & Crypt #5, Jack Kirby And Carmine Infantino interview conducted by Mark Sigal, David Rubin, Paul Hock, and Marc Bigley

February 1971

On February 28, Kirby speaks more about his new DC work:

“I’m the Editor... I do what I want to... we’ve got a lot more planned at DC, and I think fandom will like it. I understand that some of it is confusing to readers— the concept will expand however, and I’m sure the reader will eventually catch up. Like I said, I want to move into a better comic book form.

“I gave Marvel a lot of material, a lot of ‘new runs.’

It’s up to them what they do.

I’m happy to be with DC.” February 28, 1971 (published April 15, 1971): Stan’s Weekly Express #74, “An Interview With Jack Kirby, Part 1” with G.J. O’Hara and John Millinder

March 1971

follow the whole damn thing. We try to keep a balance.

Because I read some stories sometimes and I can’t even understand them. I really can’t!”

This article also contains the first instance I’ve found of Stan giving credit to his wife Joan for pushing him to put more of himself into his comics work. Prior to Kirby leaving Marvel, the only media mention I can find of Joan is that she is a former British model, and a society column listing for one of her parties. Stan recalls: “The top sellers varied from month to month, in cycles. Romance books, mystery books. We followed the trend. When war books were big, we put out war books. Then one day my wife came to me and said, ‘You’ve got to stop kidding yourself. This is your work.

You’ve got to put yourself into it.’ So I did. Joanie is the one you really ought to interview. She’s beautiful and talented... I’m a lucky guy.

“Because sales were down and out of sheer boredom, I changed the whole line around. New ways of talking, hang-ups, introspection and brooding. I brought out a new magazine called The Fantastic Four, in 1961.

Goodman came to me with sales figures. The competitors were doing well with a superhero team. Well, I didn’t want to do anything like what they were doing, so I

, bringing nd Comic Convention April 1971 Disneyla promote his Kirby appeared at the gs with him to help win dra t cep con s e to be known as the his 1966 New God interlocking series cam om. four new DC titles. The DC’s ads [below], and throughout fand Kirby. covers, in Sherman are behind “Fourth World,” on ve Ste and g] ndin nier [sta Assistants Mark Eva

Lee writes his “Stan Lee’s Soapbox” column for the September 1971 cover-dated releases on the occasion of the publication of Spider-Man #100, and says: “I want to publicly thank all those who’ve had a hand in Spidey’s success—my publisher, Martin Goodman, who first gave me the go-ahead... Steve Ditko, Spidey’s initial artist, who breathed life and luster into the strip...”

May 1971

A May 2 New York Times article is notable for containing one of the few interviews ever done with Marvel’s publisher Martin Goodman: “Stan started as a kid here; he’s my wife’s cousin.

That was in 1941, something like that. He came in as an apprentice, to learn the business. He had a talent for writing. I think when Stan developed the Marvel super-heroes he did a very good job, and got a lot of college kids reading us. They make up a segment of our readership, but when you play it to them you lose the very young kids who just can’t Martin Goodman:

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talked to Jack Kirby about it. I said, ‘Let’s let them not always get along well; let’s let them have arguments. Let’s make them talk like real people and react like real people. Why should they all get superpowers that make them beautiful? Let’s get a guy who becomes very ugly.’ That was The Thing. I hate heroes anyway. Just ’cause a guy has superpowers, why couldn’t he be a nebbish, have sinus trouble and athlete’s foot? “[Jack Kirby] is one of the giants, a real titan. He’s had tremendous influence in the field. His artwork has great power and drama and tells a story beautifully. No matter what he draws it looks exciting, and that’s the name of the game.”

May 2, 1971: New York Times article “Shazam! Here Comes Captain Relevant” by Saul Braun

The article also states that Lee is doing well financially, in the “50 to 60 percent income tax bracket”; has a lucrative five-year contract with Cadence Industries (Marvel’s owner); and that Lee’s not sure what he’ll do when his contract expires.

Shel Dorf, young

“The only time I talked Stan into something, was when he said to me, ‘Comics aren’t going anywhere.

I’ve got to get out of this business. I hate the way Martin wants the books written.’ I said to him, ‘Why don’t you do the comics exactly the way you want to.’ That’s when he did Fantastic Four and started the whole Marvel Universe.”

May 14, 1971: Jack Kirby interview on Northwestern University’s WNUR-FM, conducted by Tim Skelly

fan Barry Alfons

o, and Kirby circ

a 1971.

in by the writer in the balloons. The artist writes the action in the margin of the illustration board and the writer is therefore able to follow the action in each individual panel. What the artist does is make the framework for the dialogue writer.”

Joan Lee:

TURNiNG POiNT! Summer 1971

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

Kirby takes to the airwaves of Northwestern University’s WNUR-FM, where he explains his distaste for his experience at Marvel Comics: “There were times at Marvel when I couldn’t say

While the letters page in Fantastic Four #116 [below] solicits plot ideas from readers, Kirby creates his “Funky Flashman” parody of Stan Lee for Mister Miracle #6.

To convey the full effect of how biting the parody is at the time, I’ve replaced the name “Funky Flashman” with “Stan Lee,” and “Houseroy” with “Roy Thomas” in Kirby’s captions and dialogue, and treated each character’s dialogue as if they are quotes from the person they’re parodying: “You know him!! I know him!! Everybody

anything because it would be taken away from me and put in another context, and it would be lost—all my connection with it would be severed. For instance, I created the Silver Surfer, Galactus and an army of other characters, and now my connection with them is lost... You get to feel like a ghost. You’re writing commercials for somebody and...

It’s a strange feeling, but I experienced it and I didn’t like it much.

“It wasn’t recognition so much—you just couldn’t take the character anywhere. You could devote your time to a character, put a lot of insight into it, help it evolve and then lose all connection with it. It’s kind of an eerie thing; I can’t describe it. You just have to experience that relationship to understand it.

“I didn’t exactly work with Stan Lee. I worked at home and I wasn’t at the office much. I’d come in maybe once or twice a month and deliver my drawings. Stan Lee would usually be pretty busy, being the editor there, and I’d deliver my stuff and that would be all there was to it. I’d tell Stan Lee what the next story was going to be, and I’d go home and do it.

“The policy there is the artist isn’t allowed to do the dialogue, and therefore has to confine himself to the script . What the artist does is the script and the drawing, and the dialogue is filled

gets to know a Stan Lee. The question is—do we need him? This can become a desperate issue—if a Stan Lee can decide your fate!”

June 1971: Kirby writes the “next issue” blurb for the end of Mister Miracle #5

“In the shadow world between success and failure, there lives the driven, little man who dreams of having it all!!!—The opportunistic spoiler, without character or values, who preys on all things like a cannibal!!!—Including you!! Like death and taxes, we all must deal with him some time!”

“At least I don’t have to work for [my weekly allowance]!

“I suppose [Martin Goodman] didn’t want me to forget who’s holding the purse strings! Blast!! I get less each week... at this rate, I’ll soon be out of funds!!

“By the power and the glory and the pathos that’s Stan Lee, it’s true... it’s when you little people reach out to me that my spirits soar!

“I’ll run [my latest discovery] through the hoop and see if he clicks!—and, if he does—baby, I step in and fly! So he breaks a leg or dies!! I’ll just sip my martini by the ocean—and wait for the next fish to jump! “...Image is the thing... why—I look almost—holy! I’m ready for you again— world!

“Aaah—what a tingly wingly thrill!

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Let me study the face of a man with the daring and dash to carry on this exciting yet somber tradition!—This passion play in the Garden of Death!!

“I tell you, I tested that phrase on my man, Roy Thomas— and the beggar literally cried!! But call me Stan, sir! I prithee!

For, what is a name—but the opening gun of mutual enterprise!!

“Oh!! I feel it!—That terrible, but self-fulfilling call to work!!

The song in my blood that says, ‘Work, Stan!—Work and be productive! STAND, MEN! Be silent and humble in the presence of simple, heart-warming dedication!’

“Great harbingers of holocaust!!... The nut’s committing suicide!!

“Oh, glorious galactic! What does one say to the Ninth Wonder of the World?!

“There’s no one here but us scintillating personalities!!”

[Roy Thomas tells him it’s time to listen to tapes of his voice] “Now, there’s an instrument for you... The voice of Stan Lee!—I tell you, its dulcet tones are soon to ring o’er the land!!

Of course, I’ll need things to say! But why worry about that?!

All the great words and quotations and clichés ever written are at my beck and call!! Even if I say them sideways, the little people will listen!—In wonder! In awe! In reverence!!!—to their Stan!

“I know my words drive people into a frenzy of adoration!

I’m preparing for my establishment stage! When the press notices build to fever pitch, I’ll...”

[The recording of Stan’s voice plays] “Naturally, as your leader, my faithful pets, I can only say—and get this gem—” [As he’s attacked, he sacrifices Roy Thomas to protect himself] “[I’m] taking a leader’s privilege, biddy-buddy!—I’m sending in the troops!! Worry not, noble warrior!! I know your valor will stem the tide until the local fuzz arrive!!”

[After the battle ends] “There it goes!—Everything—up in flames! The [Goodmanrun Marvel Comics]—and its happy memories! Mint juleps!

Cotillions! Happy slaves singing for the family!!! Looks kinda pretty, though—passion-red flame against undulating, cyclopean black smoke!! A marvel of contrast! On to new conquests, Stan Lee!! You winner, you!!!”

August 1971: Kirby draws and writes Mister Miracle #6, the infamous Funky Flashman issue

The shots Kirby’s taking here at Stan and Marvel are numerous. A mockingbird is known for mimicking the songs of other birds, and Jack’s parody of Marvel (the so-called House of Ideas, which was always known for copying market trends until he arrived) is dubbed “Mockingbird Estates.” It’s where Stan gets doled out his weekly allowance from Colonel Mockingbird (Martin Goodman), who’s “holding the purse strings.” Houseroy is a parody of Roy Thomas, who comes across as a Lee sycophant, willing to tend to his every whim. The image here is of Stan Lee, taking advantage of those around him, and casting them aside when their value runs out, only to line up the next sucker to capitalize on, with no loyalty to even his underlings. Lee’s brutally portrayed as an opportunistic, insincere, disloyal, untalented egotist, who craves the spotlight, loves the sound of his own voice, and listens to it regularly on tape—something that Jack will recall over a decade later in his 1985 interview with Leonard Pitts, Jr. The repeated use of the word “leader” makes fun of Stan’s calling himself that constantly in the 1960s letter columns and Bullpen Bulletins pages.

And the “happy slaves singing for the family” refers to freelancers working for Goodman, since Marvel was a cesspool of nepotism (and the “singing” could even be a reference to how Stan made artists like Kirby show up to record their lines on the “Voices of Marvel” record in the mid-1960s, without pay).

Kirby ends it with “a MARVEL of contrasts!”

Don’t forget, Jack creates this story more than a year after he leaves Marvel, and while the New Gods looks to be a critical success; at this early stage he feels secure enough at DC that he wouldn’t need Marvel ever again—and he has a lot of Marvel axes to grind.

Kirby hits Lee where it hurts, in this biting satire from Mister Miracle #6. Jack bases “Houseroy” on Roy Thomas’ 1960s appearance [right].

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The Leader

by Kirby, from his unused Hulk Marvelmania poster.

[1989] “[Stan’s] a very rigid type, and he gets what he wants when the advantage is his. He’s the kind of guy who will play the advantages. When the advantage isn’t his at all, he’ll lose. He’ll lose with any creative guy... I think [Stan] took advantage of whoever was working for him.”

Summer 1989 (published Feb. 1990): The Comics Journal #134 interview conducted by Gary Groth

You may recall, this isn’t the first time Stan was parodied by Jack. Ego, The Living Planet (whose face will get restored to its original Kirby version when reprinted on the cover of 1973’s Marvel Spectacular #4) could be taken as a backhanded swipe at Lee, as could Ditko’s big-headed villain The Leader in the Hulk strip in Tales to Astonish. Both are much more subtle than Funky Flashman, since Jack and Steve are actually working with Stan at the time—but this new, harsher parody didn’t start out aimed at Lee. “Steve [Sherman] and I had worked for Marvelmania International, a Marvel mail-order firm. The guy who ran it was... well, let’s say that a lot of kids never got the Silver Surfer posters they ordered, and a lot of artists and folks who worked for him never got paid. When Jack asked us to come up with ideas for stories, we suggested, ‘Hey, let’s do him.’ Funky Flashman was originally conceived as our version of that guy we worked for at Mark Evanier:

Sgt. Muldoon in Cap #139, directly based on Kirby’s appearance.

Marvelmania. When Jack started doing it, the character started turning into Stan Lee. I don’t think Jack consciously decided, ‘I’m going to parody Stan.’ I think he just sat down to draw this character who was going to be sweettalking Mister Miracle into working with him, and his personal reference points for that kind of relationship led him to start drawing Stan.

“The issue ended up coming out more Stan Lee than Jack had intended, and I have to believe that something triggered that.”

In Cap #139, Romita [above] draws inspiration from a classic Kirby illustration [below].

1995: Mark Evanier interviewed by John Morrow for Jack Kirby Collector #6

That “something” has long puzzled me: Why does Kirby turn it into a way to go after Lee publicly, over a year after leaving Marvel behind him—and in such an uncharacteristically mean fashion? Is there some event that triggers this seemingly outof-the-blue response? Thanks to historian Richard Kolkman, I think I finally have an answer to that question.

Richard, who has compiled various editions of the Jack Kirby Checklist through the years, came across an unnoticed occurrence that fits perfectly. Marvel’s Captain America #139 (July 1971 cover date) hits the stands around May 1971, just as Jack is wrapping up Mister Miracle #5 at DC Comics, and preparing its “next issue” blurb with the first mention of the name “Funky Flashman.” Cap #139 features a new character, Sgt. Muldoon, whose look artist John Romita directly bases on Kirby, and who has speech patterns that Lee loosely bases on Jack’s.

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Stan Lee throws Roy Thomas to the wolves, in Kirby’s Mister Miracle #6 [left].

And the word “Funky” in Cap #139’s Bullpen Bulletins [below] is too much of a coincidence, isn’t it?

as a model... though Stan had his hair colored red in order to look like an Irishman. That was a labor of love, which I did for fun. It was a cartoony version of Jack; I put a cigar in his mouth and gave him sort-of a crewcut like Jack had.”

2007: Romita interviewed by Roy Thomas for John Romita...

And All That Jazz

“One of the fun things I did in those years had to do with a new character in Captain America.

Remember when we had Steve Rogers become a policeman? Stan introduced a new character that was basically an update of Cap’s wartime sergeant, Sgt. Duffy.

This sergeant was called Muldoon, for whom I used Jack Kirby John Romita:

If Kirby sees that Lee is making a caricature of him in his beloved Captain America strip—and perceives that as Marvel benefiting from his likeness, at a time he is doing his darndest to prove himself at their largest competitor—Jack probably decides he will turn the tables, and do Stan one better. Adding credence to this theory is the headline on the Bullpen Bulletins page in Captain America #139: “Funky Facts and Freaky Fables, From The Fickle Finger Of Forbush!” It seems likely to me that Kirby develops the bizarre name “Funky Flashman” partially from that Bullpen Bulletins headline, as one more hidden dig at Stan Lee’s penchant for alliterative promotional patter.

[1986] “I like satire. At DC I satirized everybody. In Mister Miracle I did Houseroy and Funky Flashman. I thought they were great characters. I loved those characters. Satire to me is just having fun. It’s a little like mischief and that’s all it is. You’ll find that it never hurts anybody.”

May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Stan and Roy aside, it could easily hurt Kirby’s chances of finding work at Marvel if his DC tenure goes sour; but at this stage, the Fourth World series seems to be firing on all cylinders, creatively at least, and since it takes six months or more to get accurate sales figures, the early results from Kirby’s debut issues indicate he’s got a hit. Groveling back to Marvel and Stan Lee is far from his mind.

So, is it all in fun, as Kirby claims—just a clever jab at a past co-worker, and he accidentally gets a little carried away? Or do the previous decade’s simmering frustrations need an outlet, and finally boil over?

Readers can be their own judge, but at least we have a better idea now what would’ve lit the fuse.

Lee, of course, is unaware of Funky’s creation at this point, and continues promoting Marvel in the media, including in a newspaper interview in late August, which includes an anecdote he is beginning to use repeatedly: “One of my pet beefs was the

It’s off to a new conquest for Funky Flashman, at the end of Mister Miracle #6.

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November 1971

lack of realism. If a monster was walking down the street, our competitor would have a character say, ‘Hey, there’s a monster.

I’d better run away before he destroys me.’ You’d read another book and it would be the same thing. The character would say, ‘There’s a monster. I’d better escape before he destroys me.’

“I used to tell our writers, if you saw a monster walking down the street you might say, ‘Who’s that nut in the Halloween getup’ or ‘What’s that guy advertisin’?’. You wouldn’t say, ‘Eek, a monster!’ and run away.”

If Lee is feeling low prior to this, the release of Mister Miracle #6 this month surely pushes him further down. The notorious “Funky Flashman and Houseroy” parody may’ve been cathartic for Kirby to produce, but it was also downright stupid, as it threatens to burn bridges with the company he may soon need to seek work from again.

“Most satires have some accuracy to them. If you’re going to satirize a relationship, at the core is something real and it may get distorted to the point that it doesn’t depict the true relationship. Jack was living out of Manhattan and rarely coming in— the last few years all the way out in California—so he wasn’t seeing us from close at hand. What he saw was me as a flunky, and what the hell, I was, and anybody in that job would have been one too.

“I didn’t see it as particularly personal because the relationship between me and Stan wasn’t totally unlike that—but that’s only to the extent that you consider Jack’s picture of Stan accurate.

Roy Thomas:

August 29, 1971: Fort Lauderdale News (Ft. Lauderdale, FL) article, “Old Comics Take On A New Look”

September 1971

The usually exuberant Lee is downright melancholy when interviewed for a feature article in Rolling Stone magazine. Author Robin Green states: “When I asked [Stan] for an interview, he asked me if I would be nice. He said the world was a hostile place.

I guess that’s just the mood he’s in lately. Things have been tough around Marvel. His best artist Jack Kirby went over to National not so long ago and Kirby had been with Marvel since the beginning. Gil Kane said in an interview in Alter Ego that Jack and Stan had painted themselves into a corner by converting everything at Marvel into the same model, and now everybody’s losing interest in that model. Well, Stan’s alone in the corner, still Facing Front and smiling, but a little down sometimes.”

“I don’t think my daughter has ever read a comic book in her life, and I doubt that my wife has.

They get very bored if I even discuss the subject. All they want is the paycheck every week. Sometimes I think that’s all I want. Actually, I don’t know where one life ends and the other begins, ’cause I really work seven days a week. I come to the office two days a week to do my editing and talk to people, and at home I do my writing and talk to people on the phone. Sunday, Sunday night, Saturday, Monday, everything. That’s one thing I don’t like about my job. There isn’t enough time to spend with people.

Being a writer is the loneliest...

“But anyway, I think this is what has held my marriage together. I’ve got the greatest wife in the world. I’m absolutely crazy about her and every time I see her or have a date with her, it’s like a treat, it’s like I’m stealing time away from work and nobody knows it. ’Cause I got a story to write, but I say, ‘Come on, let’s go out to dinner. I’ll finish it when I get back.’ So it’s a few precious stolen hours, and maybe if I had a regular job, I’d get tired of going out every night.”

September 16, 1971: Rolling Stone #91 feature article on Marvel Comics.

“Stan would work five days a week at the office, then come home and write stories in the night time. I loved it. It didn’t bother me at all, because he still found enough time for the two of us. He would stay up working later than I. He was the first one I knew to buy a wire recorder when they came out, way before the tape recorders. His biggest frustration was trying to untangle the wires that were always getting tangled up, but he’d speak into the recorder at night and then type up his notes the following morning.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

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benefit to play me up and to make me sort of a symbol of the company. I swear to you, ‘Stan Lee Presents’ being splashed on everything was not my idea. Somebody had that idea and they did it and it’s always embarrassed me a little bit, especially since I present so many stories that I’ve never read, and have no idea what they were about.”

Photo of Kirby at the University of California at San Diego campus, circa 1972.

He drew sketches or Darkseid and Mister Miracle, and talked about his DC series, which—had things gone differently— might’ve been Marvel series. Photo by Alex Jay.

July 1995: The Stan Lee Roast at the Chicago Comic-Con

April 1972

At a Vanderbilt University Symposium, Lee and Kirby share the stage, and have what is likely their first face-to-face meeting since Kirby’s “Funky Flashman” parody is published. They both share their views on the connection between writing comics and drawing them: “I’ll make this short. The art of writing is to write the story, and the art of drawing is to draw the pictures.

Now some people just write the stories, some people just draw the pictures, and some guys do both. And if anybody can add anything to that...”

“I’ll grab hold of this. I’ve worked with writers and artists. I know that the writing helps the art, and the art is supposed to help the writing. Combined, they’re supposed to have an impact upon the reader.

Some cartoons don’t have writing at all, and I suppose you can call that graphic manual art. That’s what makes them work. Sometimes the writing will make an adventure strip work. Sometimes, if you get the right man to write the strip, you can get a strip with a lot of impact. So the writer is necessary to the strip because that’s been the format all along. Someone has to write the balloons. If you’re an extremely talented artist, you can write the script yourself; that’s been done too. Writing and drawing are both arts, and the combination of both fields can make a very fine product. They’re separate arts, but not inseparable. They help each other in the best way possible.”

“My character, Houseroy, was only there as a cipher, somebody to talk to, to be a toadie, and eventually abandoned by Flashman. It was kind of mean-spirited and warped out of recognition. I did love the name Houseroy, which was cute, but it hurt to some degree. But I realized that Jack didn’t know what he was talking about and was just putting me in to fit the role.”

May-June 1998: Interview with Roy Thomas, by Jon B. Cooke

January 1972

On January 5, Stan Lee headlines a critically-panned Carnegie Hall show, “A Marvel-Ous Evening With Stan Lee,” meant to be a celebration of the Marvel brand.

Apr. 28–29, 1972: Vanderbilt University Symposium with Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and others

March 1972

Major events happen to both Stan and Jack this month.

Kirby is told by Carmine Infantino that due to under-performing sales, DC will cancel The New Gods and The Forever People, and that he must shift Mister Miracle away from the New Gods oeuvre.

He hurriedly switches gears and swaps planned stories for Mister Miracle #9 (“The Mister Miracle To Be”) and #10, to get the character’s origin story “Himon” into print. It’s too late to alter the “next issue” blurb in #8’s letter column to reflect the switch.

Also in March, Stan Lee becomes publisher and editorial director of Marvel Comics, and stops writing monthly comic books. His final credited issues are Thor #200, Amazing Spider-Man #110, Marvel Premiere #3, and Fantastic Four #125.

The slogan “Stan Lee Presents” begins appearing with the following issues’ credit boxes.

[1995] “I don’t think I’m the egomaniac I seem to be, but for some reason at that time the people who ran the company felt, for whatever reason there was, that it was to their

, 1972 edition of ed in the Jan. 30 poster Lee as he appear per. At right is the With spa new n Su ll show. the Baltimore ved Carnegie Ha me for the ill-concei welco s his sales down, Lee less, Kirby gone and ere he can write wh er, lish pub re. promotion to and promote mo

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Since Martin Goodman is due to depart his interim position at Marvel in July, he is likely tying up loose ends before permanently leaving the company. He calls in the remaining $1000 balance on Kirby’s 1968 loan, and that, combined with the loss of the Fourth World books, apparently spurs Kirby to finally sign Marvel’s release form, so he can receive his promised payment to match Joe Simon’s from 1969. On April 7, Marvel cuts a check for the first half of Kirby’s payment, but holds it while waiting for him to sign the agreement.

May 1972

On May 30, “under duress,” Kirby signs Marvel’s release form, relinquishing any claim he has to the copyright on Captain America Comics #1–10 from the 1940s.

This document was originally drafted in July 1970 (just a few months after Kirby left Marvel for DC), so why did Kirby wait two years to sign it? I suspect he felt confident enough in his new editorial and financial position at DC Comics, that he didn’t need to; but the changing landscape at DC in 1972, and Goodman demanding loan repayment, changed things.

June 1972

The release document is counter-signed by Chip Goodman on June 5, and Kirby receives his $2535 payment for signing it in two installments, on June 13 and June 20.

When asked if he missed working at Marvel, Kirby’s answer is emphatic: “No!”

ASSIGNMENT This is an assignment between Jack Kirby, a citizen and resident of California, and Magazine Management Co., Inc., a corporation of the State of Delaware, having its principal place of business at 625 Madison Avenue, New York, New York.

For and in consideration of the covenants and agreements herein contained and the sum of One Dollar ($1), the receipt of which Simon hereby acknowledges, IT IS HEREBY AGREED as follows: 1 A. Kirby shall and hereby does assign to Magazine Management Co., Inc. any and all right, title and interest he may have or control or which he has had or controlled in and to the following (without warranty that he has had or controlled any such right, title or interest):

(1) Any and all MATERIALS, including any and all ideas, names, characters, symbols, designs, likenesses, visual representations, stories, episodes, literary property, etc., which have been in whole or in part acquired, published, merchandised, advertised and/or licensed in any form, field, or media by the Goodmans, their affiliates, and/or their predecessors or successors in interest (which shall be understood broadly and to include their licensees and all who derive any interest from the Goodmans), or any of them, and

(2) Any and all RIGHTS, including any and all copyrights, trademarks, statutory rights, common law rights, goodwill, and any other rights whatsoever relating to the MATERIALS in any and all media and/or fields including any and all rights to renewal or extension of copyright, to recover for past infringement and to make application or institute suit therefor, and including by way of example and without limitation Kirby claim to renewal copyright in Volume 2, Nos. 1-10 of the work entitled “Captain America Comics,” these being evidenced by Registration Nos. R 429502, R 446534, R 446535, R 446536, R 446537, R 446538, R 446539, R 446540, R 446541 and R 448324 in the United States Copyright Office, all hereinafter referred to as MATERIALS and RIGHTS, including, without limitation and as just an example, all the MATERIALS listed in Schedules 1, 2 and 3, as amended, attached hereto.

1 B. Everything relating in any way to any MATERIALS and RIGHTS and any papers evidencing an ownership claim in any MATERIALS and RIGHTS shall be physically transferred or surrendered to the Goodmans or their designees.

1 C. It is the intention of the parties that by this assignment Kirby is transferring to Magazine Management Co., Inc. any and all MATERIALS and RIGHTS he may claim, have or control or has claimed, had or controlled in the past in any way whatsoever concerning or relating to Captain America and any other of the aforesaid MATERIALS and RIGHTS, and that KIRBY shall have no further claim of any kind arising out of or relating to any past business relationship with the Goodmans, their affiliates, or predecessors or successors in interest.

2. Kirby hereby warrants that he has not assigned, licensed, or pledged and has not attempted or purported to assign license, or pledge any of the MATERIALS and RIGHTS to anyone other than the Goodmans, their affiliates, predecessors or successors in interest, and/or their designees and that he will not do so in the future.

3. KIRBY shall execute or cause to be executed upon request by the Goodmans, their affiliates or successors in interest and/or designees, any and all additional applications, assignments, statements, pleadings, or other papers which are deemed by them to be necessary or appropriate for effecting the transfer of rights herein recited or for securing the benefit and exclusive enjoyment thereof to the Goodmans, their affiliates, successors in interest, and/or designees.

4. KIRBY agrees not to contest either directly or indirectly the full and complete ownership by the Goodmans, their affiliates, designees, or successors in interest, of all right, title and interest in and to the MATERIALS and RIGHTS or the validity to the RIGHTS, which may be conferred on Magazine Management Co., Inc. by this Agreement, or to assist others in so doing.

Examples of such prohibited contestation would be, without limitation, applying for copyright, renewal copyright, trademarks, patents, etc. for the MATERIALS and RIGHTS herein specified or the publication by KIRBY or his assigns or agents of literary property which would infringe upon, violate or be confusingly similar to such MATERIALS and RIGHTS. 5. KIRBY acknowledges and agrees that all his work on the MATERIALS, and all his work which created or related to the RIGHTS, was done as an employee for hire of the Goodmans.

6. This Agreement shall be binding upon the parties hereto, their affiliates and subsidiaries, legal representatives, successors and predecessors in interest, and assigns.

7. The invalidity of any provision or part hereof or obligation hereunder, or the contravention thereby of any law, rule or regulation of any State, The Federal Government or any agency, shall not relieve any party from its obligation under, nor deprive any party of the advantages of, any other provision or part of this Agreement.

June 1972: Comicscope fanzine, “Jack Kirby: A Profile” with Mark Evanier

This month, Lee prepares a colossal “Stan Lee’s Soapbox” that takes up nearly the entire Bullpen Bulletins page. In it, he states that Roy Thomas is taking over as Editor, and Stan explains why he’s no longer writing comics.

This document was first drafted for a July 1970 expected signature, but Kirby doesn’t sign it until May 1972, while he’s working at DC Comics.

July 1972

a stipulation of moving back to Marvel Comics? Rocket’s Blast Comic Collector #94 features a newsflash titled “Kirby Leaves DC,” stating the switch was announced on August 23 (a month after Goodman leaves Marvel), and that Kirby plans to work on X-Men and some of his own books at Marvel, but that Carmine Infantino is considering holding Jack to the remaining two years of his DC contract, and paying him to do nothing so he can’t leave. This leads me to believe Jack does attempt to jump ship, but can’t get out of his DC contract.

Kirby may’ve viewed Stan’s ascension to publisher (and Goodman’s departure) as an opportunity to produce his own work back at Marvel, unhindered, and approached the company about it, before making sure DC wouldn’t object—only to find he had to finish out his full term at DC.

At the New York Comic Art Convention luncheon, Kirby gives props to the unsung heroes in comics’ production departments:

“...artists will sometimes have their own ego trip about a magazine; ‘I contributed the art.’ Or a writer will say, ‘I contributed the writing.’

Well, the production staff and the editorial staff also make a big contribution. The overall magazine has an individual stamp—it’s an individual stamp of a lot of people. The conceptions of a lot of people go into that one magazine. You see the individual stamp of the logo, which makes the magazine its own distinct product; the individual stamp of the lettering. You can tell a DC magazine a mile away. Why? Because these people have made it its own unique product. So I feel that the production staff—people like Sol Harrison and Nelson Bridwell— should be given their own recognition for contributing to the overall product, because the overall product is the thing that interests you.”

A newspaper article recaps Lee’s recent lecture in front of about 225 fans at the University of Delaware: “The old comics were all the same. The same dialogue, the same plots, the same [bug-eyed monsters]... It was believed that anybody over 14 looked down their noses at comic book readers.

“Then, one day my wife turned to me—she was always looking the other way—and said, ‘Why don’t you try something new?’

“I told the publisher to think of the worst subject he could

July 1972 (published 1973): New York Comic Art Convention program book, “1972 Comic Art Convention Luncheon” with Alex Toth and Jim Steranko

Fall 1972

Could Goodman’s calling in of Kirby’s loan just after the Fourth World series is cancelled, indicate Jack was attempting to leave DC then, and the loan repayment is 125

claimed that Kirby had actually initiated the character... Kirby had earlier thought up a character called Spiderman for another company, and had gone as far as a cover mock-up.”

Chronologically, this is the earliest confirmation I’ve found that the idea of a “Silver Spider”-influenced Kirby Spiderman was the genesis for what became the published version—and this is in Marvel’s own fan publication. I’m not sure what “forums” Kirby and Lee previously made statements about this in, but the authors of the article are well-known in fandom at the time, and probably got their information from interviews I haven’t uncovered, or from convention panel appearances

by Kirby and Lee. It’s been alleged that Lee mentioned this during a keynote speech at Vanderbilt University in 1972, given separately from the symposium where he shared the stage with Kirby and others, but I have not found that transcript.

As for the cover mock-up mentioned, while it could be as quoted, that may also be referring to the Night Fighter cover shown previously in this book, which Kirby may’ve presented early on to Lee.

Summer 1973 San Diego Comic-Con photo, with Carmine Infantino, fan Barry Alfonso, and Kirby.

and we would sell it with realism. He picked war.

“I don’t like war any better than anyone else. We keep trying to get rid of Sgt. Fury, but people keep buying it.”

November 20, 1972: The News Journal (Wilmington, DE) article “King of the Comic Books,” by Jim Panyard, Newark Bureau

In Captain America #159 (March 1973 cover date, so produced in late 1972), Sgt. Muldoon—the character introduced in issue #139 as a doppelganger to Kirby—is revealed to have secretly been mysterious crime boss The Cowled Commander. Whether intentional or not, editor Roy Thomas and/ or writer Steve Englehart figuratively get the last word for Jack’s Funky Flashman parody.

Fall 1973: Foom #3 article by Bob Cosgrove and Martin Greim

Early-to-Mid 1974

An article about Marvel, edited by future DC Comics publisher Jenette Kahn, credits Kirby as being “responsible for drawing Marvel’s most famous characters.” Lee gives one of his trademark quotes: “If I had a super power, I might still have bad breath or

Spring 1973

Discussing Marvel’s warehouse of original art, Stan Lee says: “Look at it this way, that original art is much like diamonds in the diamond market. Do you know how many diamonds the big mines have salted away down in South Africa? If they were to release all those diamonds at once, their value would be virtually nothing. It’s the same with the original art. This way if a fan gets some piece of original art, he will look upon it as being much more valuable, much more desirable, than if the art were everywhere. I think that the art should be hard to get; it should be something of an adventure.”

April 1973: Creem Vol. 4, #11 article “...And Now Spider-Man And The Marvel Comics Group!”, by Mike Baron

Fall 1973

Stan Lee as Marvel’s publisher in 1973, depicted in Creem magazine.

Marvel’s Foom #3 runs an article titled “Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Spider-Man” that shows Kirby being involved in the creation of Spider-Man isn’t a closely-held secret in fandom: “Kirby and Lee, in separate forums,

nepotism he encountered may’ve been inspired by the ed to DC Comics—which s, and by documenting serie Gods New his of Unused concept Kirby pitch on ellati ept. took place just after the canc any eventual use of this conc for it cred get at Marvel since 1940. This will he re g steps to ensu it in this way, Kirby is takin

126

years, the bloom was definitely off the rose at DC, too, and Carmine was now the enemy, as he was to many other people.

“And all I could say to Jack was, ‘The only thing between you really is that Stan was a little hurt about the way you left, but that’s not a big deal. And the Funky Flashman stuff bothered him a little bit, because it seemed, to Stan at least, somewhat mean-spirited.’ I said to Jack, ‘I don’t take the Houseroy stuff that personally, because you don’t know me. My relationship to Stan was somewhat like what you said, and partly it’s just a caricature because I was there. And the name ‘Houseroy’ is clever as hell, and I kinda like it.’ I’m even a sympathetic character because I got tossed to the wolves. But I said, ‘We can get past that. Stan would love to have you back; he never wanted you to leave’.”

acne or a hangnail or indigestion.” The article also states that “arch-rival National Periodicals pirated away Jack Kirby to help them punch up their own line of heroes.

And even Superman has become slightly more human.”

1974: Smash Magazine #1 article on Marvel Comics; edited and published by Jenette Kahn, who would become DC Comics’ publisher in 1976

Lee discusses his break-up with Kirby, and why Jack left Marvel: “I don’t even know the real reason. I suspect that FOOM #3, edited and designed by Jim Steranko.

Jack just felt maybe like I felt after all those years, I wanted to do something different... that he wanted to do his own thing. The first few years of his career, so many things said ‘by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby’... I suspect he woke up one morning and said, ‘Gee, all these years everything has said ‘by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’,’ and he probably wanted to prove how good he is on his own.

“I know we never had a fight. We got along beautifully. I have the utmost respect for his ability and I wish he’d come back.”

Responding to the notion that Kirby tried to come back to Marvel after his New Gods series was cancelled, Lee recalls: “Yes. I’d met Jack once or twice and told him I’d like to have him back and he seemed very interested. But the last time... I don’t know.

Jack is a rather personal person. He keeps things to himself. I don’t know what his plans are at this point.”

September 1997: Roy Thomas interviewed by Jim Amash, published in The Jack Kirby Collector #18

September 1974

Kirby is interviewed on KNJO Radio, near his home in Thousand Oaks, California. About the revival of Captain America in the 1960s, he succinctly described his involvement: “I went back to

Marvel, I got them to revive it, and the character did very well.”

Describing his work process, he elaborates: “...speaking for myself, I create my own script . I draw the story from the subject that I have in mind.”

1974: Comics Feature #21 interview conducted by Jay Maeder

Summer 1974

In June, a disgruntled Martin Goodman, retired from Marvel and annoyed at the corporate owners’ dismissal of his son Chip in favor of Stan Lee as publisher, opens the doors of a new comics publishing outfit, Atlas/Seaboard. Its main reason for existence appears to be to spite his old company and do it harm. Stan Lee’s brother Larry Lieber is hired as editor, Wally Wood provides some stories, and Kirbyesque artwork is abundant on its Marvel-like cover layouts—but by late 1975, the company shuts down for good.

Sometime from July 31– August 5, Kirby broaches the subject of returning to Marvel while at the San Diego Comic Convention.

Of his Golden Age stories with Joe Simon, Kirby confirms:

“I wrote them then, too, except I’d talk them over with Joe, and Joe would inject some of his ideas into the story. I would just put them down on paper and break the synopsis down, break the theme down, and come out with a refined product which I penciled out.”

September 18, 1974: KNJO Radio, Thousand Oaks, California, “Kirby On Kirby 1974: An Interview With The King Of Comics” with Jerry Connelly

Lee’s book Origins of Marvel Comics is published this month

by Simon and Schuster, and Stan inadvertently makes a case for Kirby and Ditko as being co-creators: “Unfortunately, however, ideas are only the tip of the iceberg. The crucial point is what use you make of the ideas.”

This goes directly to Ditko’s mindset, that a thing doesn’t exist until it exists physically—a contention that Lee contradictorily takes issue with later: [2012] “[Ditko] feels that the person who physically gives it life is the co-creator, otherwise all I had was an idea, which was nothing solid.”

“Jack and their son Neal and probably Roz and maybe someone else—got together with me to my surprise to talk about the possibility of Jack coming back to Marvel then, about a year before he actually did. It didn’t quite come to anything just yet, but it was obvious that within that three or four Roy Thomas:

Created in late 1974, Atlas Seaboard’s Destructor #1 features a cover by Larry Lieber and Wally Wood, and interior by Steve Ditko and Wood. Goodman did his best to mimic the classic Kirby Marvel style.

Kirby poses poolside at the 1973 San Diego Comic-Con. Photo by Shel Dorf.

July 2012: Stan Lee’s Spoilers interview

127

On the creation of the Fantastic Four, Origins of Marvel Comics gives what could be Stan’s most accurate, concise account ever of the sequence of events: “After kicking it around with Martin and Jack for a while, I decided to call our quaint quartet The Fantastic Four. I wrote a detailed first synopsis for Jack to follow, and the rest is history.”

More perplexing is Lee’s account of the creation of Thor: “During a recent radio interview the talk-show host and I had been discussing our Marvel stories and he had referred to them as a 20th-century mythology. It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future generations just as those we had read as children had been handed down to us. One of the points he had made was that Marvel’s heroes il had some of the charisma, some of the ts prior to this Apr Based on accoun is at we’re assuming wh to er flavor of ancient fairy tales, of ancient lett 4 197 r, by this point Lee a potential licenso Greek and Norse mythology. And that that Kirby’s return seems to be hinting nt. to Marvel in immine was what grabbed me. That was the answer.”

It makes for great promo copy, but historically, this is simply impossible. The idea that Stan is doing radio interviews about Marvel, prior to Journey into Mystery #83, seems rather far-fetched.

Marvel wasn’t even close to being a household name by that point, so this doesn’t ring true, despite Stan repeating it almost verbatim in interviews for years to come, such as this instance 25 years later: [1999] “Whence came the notion of making a super-hero out of the Norse god of thunder? I thought you’d never ask! It happened when I was a guest on a New York radio talk show. The interviewer kept referring to our colorful, costumed characters as our generation’s new mythology. Then, when he asked what new creation we were preparing, it all came together! Enter the world of myth! Come up with a god!”

Sometime in late 1974-early 1975, Kirby sits down for an interview in Barry Alfonso’s fanzine Mysticogryfil. Jack refers to his work at DC in the present tense—“I’m subject to their policy as anybody else”—so this interview would’ve been conducted before he moves back to Marvel. In it, you get a sense of his restlessness and discontent at DC Comics.

Do you remember the first time you worked with Stan Lee? “No, I don’t remember.”

Jack undoubtedly does remember, but apparently doesn’t want to talk about it.

Why did you never put a finish to the New Gods/Forever People thing? Did you purposely leave it open-ended?

“No... it just happened that way. It had to end at that point, there was nothing I could do about it. For the New Gods it was unfortunate, but I had no time to make a finale for it. When I do write the finale for the New Gods, it’ll be something spectacular.”

It would be the battle between Orion and Darkseid?

“Yes, it’ll be the battle; and the battle itself will be a big surprise, I assure you.”

Was the series ended for financial reasons as they’ve said?

“No. No financial reasons involved. I can’t make a statement unless I make it in concert with those who make policy.”

Why is there no provision for giving the artist some payment for re-use? It’s the only business I can think of where it’s not done.

“I say that it’s medieval in that respect, because it’s highly specialized, and very limited. You have no choice... Well, it’s gotten to the stage where there’s a minimal scale wage, which isn’t bad. And, slowly but surely, they are now beginning to give you your originals back.”

1999: Found online, source uncertain

Late 1974-early 1975 (published May 1975): Jack Kirby and Don Rico interview in Mysticogryfil: Journal of Cosmic Wonder #2, with Barry Alfonso

The biggest issue is, at the time Marvel’s Thor is created, the company has no colorful characters for a radio interviewer to discuss. Journey into Mystery #83 would’ve been worked on around February 1962, and the only published “colorful characters” that could’ve been discussed on radio at that point are the Fantastic Four (who only get their costumes in issue #3, on-sale in December 1961, just two months prior to work commencing on Thor), Dr. Droom (from Amazing Adventures; hardly a colorful character), and Henry Pym (not yet Ant-Man in costume, just the “Man in the Ant Hill” in Tales to Astonish #27). Marvel had not generated anything close to a “modern mythology” yet—nor any reason for a talk show host to even interview Stan. This story is the kind of unfortunate hogwash that has earned Lee a reputation in some circles as being a dishonest egotist who claims credit where it isn’t due.

Kirby later refers back to this period in an interview: [1986] “Let’s just say there’s a dark side to comics. It involves personalities, differences, a lot of things. It has nothing to do with creating characters and stories. And those things can develop so you’ve got to meet those things head on, and I did. I made decisions about those things about as easily as I made decisions about a story.”

When asked if other people taking credit for his work was a factor in his career plans, Kirby replies, “It’s

part of that. When other people interfere with your work, you apply at another company.”

May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

[1985] “I don’t contrive stories, I don’t give you B.S., and I’m not giving you fairy tales.”

[left] Dr. Droom, master of the occult, made three brief appearances in 1961’s Amazing Adventures #1–3, then vanished without a trace—hardly a “colorful character” to discuss on radio.

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted

by James Van Hise

128

1975–78 ks with bly tal resuma ibility of his p y b , Kir e poss ly 1975 ding th .

In ear , regar g to Marvel e e L n in ces Sta return irby fa K , s n r u now t , e e r ic e f f h o n after he New YOrk ns e a v f e s t Bu om t comic to ack fr few former ir way e h pushb t a f y ing out o ted b mouth d popula ro. Some go a b y d p icult, b ing his turne stack re diff . is tenu e mail rtedly h o iv p e t e k a r a g m e ks, and with n his boo er columns lett books’

Comings & Goings to come back eventually. I sort of half-expect that he’ll come back when his contract ends—I think he’d be making a mistake not to come back. I’d say he did his best work at Marvel, his style is pure Marvel. Also I must admit that he has had so many books at National that have failed, whereas if they’d been for Marvel, I think they would still be being published—especially New Gods.

“The thing about Jack is that though he’s a good story man, and a good artist, I feel he needs some control, some editing. He tends to get so wrapped up in what he wants to do, that he forgets

February 1975

Lee discusses the departure of Kirby, and whether he could’ve done his New Gods books at Marvel: “He could have. I don’t really know why he left. I think it was a personal thing. Jack never told me. I think it could be as simple as the fact that he got sick of everything he did saying ‘by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’. Maybe he just wanted to do his own thing and have the books saying ‘by Jack Kirby.’

But, as far as I was concerned, if he’d have told me he wanted to do his own book, I’d have said fine, and let him write it and draw it, but he never said it to me. I’ve heard that he was tired of doing things that he never owned, to copyright his characters, shares of the profits, and so on. I wish I’d had the same thing, I don’t blame him. But what surprises me is that he doesn’t have any copyright now at National, as far as I know.

“So, I really don’t know why he left. And I will say, in all honesty that I’d like Jack to come back, I want him On-stage

One of Kirby’s few solo assignments in the 1960s, from Fantastic Four Annual #5 (1967).

at the San

what the readers might want. I think his material was a little better with us because we exercised some control. I remember on the very first issue of the Fantastic Four, I’d suggested in the synopsis a monster, and Jack drew a hundred red monsters.

I said, ‘Jack, it’s more dramatic to have one monster that the reader worries about, than a hundred monsters.’ The trouble with Jack is that he’s so imaginative he tries to put every idea he can think of on every page. He tries to make every page a whole new original thought and action. That isn’t good story.

You have to build up a mood. You’ve got to take one idea and stretch it over a few pages and milk the utmost drama out of it.

It’s a matter of pacing—you don’t have a chance to catch your

Diego Con,

mid-1970s

. Photos by

Shel Dorf.

129

Ditko’s portrayal of working with Lee, from Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1 in 1964.

breath reading his stories. “...with Ditko I have less of an understanding. Steve was a very mysterious character. When he first started he was the easiest character we ever had to work with. I used to think that if everybody was as easy to work with as Steve, it would be great. I would call him in the middle of the night with an emergency ten-page script and Steve would bring it in the very next day without a complaint. He was just beautiful. But little by little, he became tougher and tougher to work with. After a while

lous audience, everyone’s head started to snap around as Kirby himself came waltzin’ down the aisle to join us on the rostrum!

You can imagine how it felt clownin’ around with the co-creator of most of Marvel’s greatest strips once more.”

Bullpen Bulletins in Marvel Comics cover-dated October 1975, including Fantastic Four #163.

At the event, in tried-and-true fashion, Kirby lays down a basic storyline, and Lee as his editor proceeds to polish it: “Whatever I do

at Marvel, I can assure you that it’ll electrocute you in the mind!”

“Electrify, Jack! Electrify!”

1996: Nicholas Caputo: “A Shocking Story,” recounted in Jack Kirby Collector #10

April-May 1975

Kirby begins work on Captain America #193, his first new Marvel comic. Lee writes the “Stan Lee’s Soapbox” column for October 1975 cover-dated releases, saying: “The King is back! ’Nuff Said!”, calls Kirby a co-creator, and is welcoming in tone.

In a newspaper account, Lee elaborates on his new emphasis in Hollywood, and his move away from comics: “I spent my life at the lonely business of writing. Now I get to meet people, appear on TV and make movies. I’m living.”

he’d say to me, ‘Gee, Stan, I don’t like those plots you are writing for Spider-Man.’

“So I’d say okay, because I couldn’t have cared less, Steve was so good at drawing stuff, I said, ‘Use your own plot, I’ll put the dialogue in.’ So he’d do his own, and I’d switch them around, and I’d put the dialogue in and make them conform to what I wanted. Then he’d say ‘I don’t like the sound-effects you’re putting in.’ So I told him to use his own, I didn’t mind.

“I’d bend over backwards to accommodate him, because he was so good and the strip was so successful. But it was like Chamberlain giving in to Hitler; the more I appeased him, the harder he got to work with. Finally, it reached the point where he didn’t even come up to the office with his artwork—he’d just mail it in. Then one day he said he was leaving. You now know as much about it as I do. What bothered him, I don’t know. Why he’s wasting his time at this other company doing work no one pays any attention to, I don’t know.

He’s another guy I’d take back in a minute, but I have a feeling he’d be impossible to work with.”

April 21, 1975: The Greenville News (Greenville, SC) article, “Comic Book Producer Plans Spider Movie”

WRITERS AND ARTISTS AGREEMENT

March 1975

On March 18, Kirby visits the Marvel offices for what may be the first time since his departure in 1970. The visit takes place on the Monday before the 1975 Mighty Marvel Con (held in New York City on March 22–24). Marie Severin spots the artist going into Lee’s office and yells down the Marvel halls, “Kirby’s back!” Kirby signs a three-year contract to return to Marvel (valid through April 30, 1978), but must continue working for DC to finish out his contractual obligation with that company.

TURNiNG POiNT! On March 24, at the Mighty Marvel Convention, it’s announced to fans that Kirby is returning to Marvel Comics, and Kirby makes a surprise appearance. Lee recounts the experience: “As I started telling about Jack’s return, to a totally incredu-

7. Rights to Material. WRITER/ARTIST grants to Marvel the sole and exclusive right to all Material delivered to Marvel hereunder including, but not limited to, (a) the exclusive right to secure copyright(s) in the Material in the United States, Canada, and throughout the world, (b) the magazine rights therein of every kind, (c) all film and dramatic rights of every kind, (d) all anthology, advertising and promotion rights therein, and (e) all reprint rights. The exclusive rights herein granted shall be Marvel’s property for the period of the copyright and any renewals thereof.

8. Originality of Material. WRITER/ARTIST represents that the Material written/drawn by him will be original and not heretofore published and that it will not infringe upon any statutory copyright, common law copyright or any other proprietary right.

9. Use of Name. Marvel shall at all times have the right to use WRITER’S/ARTIST’S name and likeness in connection with the sale, promotion and distribution of any magazines which include Material delivered to Marvel.

10. Series and Ideas. If any Material delivered hereunder is part of a series, the idea and the character or characters used therein shall constitute Marvel’s exclusive property for all times.

11. Additional Documents. WRITERS/ARTISTS shall, at Marvel’s expense, take such steps and execute and deliver such further documents from time to time as Marvel may request for the purpose of confirming the rights herein granted to Marvel.

12. Notices. Any notices required or permitted to be given under this Agreement shall be sufficient if in writing, and if sent by registered mail to his residence in the case of WRITER/ARTIST, or to Publisher, Marvel Comics Group at its principal office in the case of Marvel (with a copy to Secretary and Counsel, Cadence Industries Corporation, 21 Henderson Drive, West Caldwell, New Jersey 07006). _ 13. Waiver of Breach. The waiver by Marvel of a breach of any provision of this Agreement by the WRITER/ARTIST shall not operate or be construed as a waiver of any subsequent breach by the WRiTER/ARTIST. The waiver by the WRITER/ARTIST of a breach of any provisions of this Agreement by Marvel shall not operate or be construed as a waiver of any subsequent breach by Marvel.

14. Covenants. WRITER/ARTIST agrees that he shall not make and/or sign any other contract or agreement, written or oral, which shall be in conflict with the terms of this Agreement or prevent or hinder his performance hereunder for the length of this Agreement or any extension or renewal thereof, and further agrees that he has the full and unrestricted right to enter into this Agreement and deliver the Material hereunder.

15. Assignment. The rights and obligations of Marvel under this Agreement shall inure to the benefit of and shall be binding upon the successors and assigns of Marvel.

16. Entire Agreement. This instrument contains the entire Agreement of the parties. It may not be changed orally but only by an agreement in writing signed by the party against whom enforcement of any waiver, change, modification, extension, or discharge is sought.

17. Arbitration. Any claim, dispute or controversy arising out of or in connection with this Agreement or the breach thereof will be submitted by either party to arbitration in New York City before three arbitrators appointed by the American Arbitration Association.

The arbitration will proceed under the rules of the Association then obtaining. The award of the arbitrators will be binding and conclusive on both parties, and will be rendered in such form that a judgment may be entered thereon in the highest court of any forum having jurisdiction.

18. Taxes. All taxes will be taken out of the writer/artist’s salary check by Marvel and paid to the government.

130

Kirby’s 1975 Marvel contract.

Feb.-March 1975 (published April 1975): Fantasy Advertiser International interview with Stan Lee, by Charles Murray

AGREEMENT dated March 24, 1975 between, MARVEL COMICS GROUP (hereinafter called “Marvel”), and Jack Kirby (hereinafter called the “Writer”/”Artist”).

WHEREAS the Writer/Artist is prominent in the field and both writes the text of comic book stories and draws complete through the pencil stage the art work for comic books Marvel is desirous of retaining Writer/Artist as a writer and artist for its magazines and writer/artist is willing to render such services on the terms and conditions hereinafter set forth.

NOW, THEREFORE, in consideration of the premises and of the mutual promises and undertakings herein contained, and for other good and valuable considerations, the parties agree as follows: 1. ENGAGEMENT. Marvel hereby employs WRITER/ARTIST and WRITER/ARTIST hereby agrees to render services to Marvel, as a writer/artist for magazines heretofore and hereinafter published by Marvel.

2. TERM. (a) Initial Term. The term of the Agreement shall be for three years commencing May 1, 1975 and ending April 30, 1978 (sometimes referred to as the engagement year). (b) Renewal Terms. In the absence of notice to the contrary given by either party to the other not less than sixty (60) days prior to the expiration of the Initial Term hereof, this Agreement shall be automatically renewed for another three years on the same terms and conditions as those herein set forth.

3. COMPENSATION. (a) Basic Compensation. For all services to be performed for and provided to Marvel hereunder, Marvel shall pay WRITER/ARTIST on a biweekly basis, a weekly salary of $1,100. For purposes of this Agreement, WRITER/ARTIST shall deliver to Marvel during the term of this Agreement thirteen (13) pages per week consisting of the written text and the finished penciled drawings.

In this respect WRITER/ARTIST will make all changes and rewrite/redraw all Material as reasonably required by the Publisher of Marvel without charge (that is, rewrites/redrawings and changes shall not constitute pages for purposes of computing re fee payable hereunder. (b) Additional Compensation. In the event that it is mutually agreed to do additional pages beyond those stipulated in the proceeding paragraph the text and finished penciled drawings shall be paid for at the rate of $85.00 per page. Additional compensation shall be paid to WRITER/ARTIST forty-five (45) days after submission and acceptance of such material by Marvel. (c) Benefits. WRITER/ARTIST shall be eligible for all coverage or benefits under any plan or plans of health, hospitalization, life or other insurance available to other [employees crossed out and something handwritten in] of Marvel who are paid on a similar basis and who have a similar position. Furthermore, writer/artist shall be entitled to two (2) weeks paid vacation per annum.

4. (a) Conflict. During the period of this Agreement, WRITER/ARTIST will not engage directly or indirectly in any capacity in any business or activity which is competitive with Marvel, which could be detrimental to Marvel, or which may conflict with WRITER/ARTIST duties hereunder. (b) Editorial Stipulations. Selection as to the magazines or features written/drawn WRITER/ARTIST for Marvel, shall be determined by Marvel. (c) Extent of Service. WRITER/ARTIST agrees not to write and/or edit/draw any comic book or magazine material for anyone other than Marvel during the term of this Agreement without the prior written approval of Marvel. (d) Credits. WRITER/ARTIST shall be given credit, where appropriate in comics in which he is the sole writer/artist.

5. Publisher. In performing all services required hereunder, WRITER/ARTIST shall act under the direction of the Publisher of Marvel.

WRITER/ARTIST shall consult with him on all matters touching upon editorial policies, in order to assure the efficiency and harmonious operation of Marvel and to meet with the Publisher of Marvel at regular intervals at Publisher’s request at Marvel’s offices in New York, New York. WRITER/ARTIST shall accept assignments from the Publisher of Marvel to write, edit, and/or draw all magazines presently published or hereafter published by Marvel and further agrees that he will make no commitments whatsoever (whether financial or otherwise) on behalf of Marvel without the prior written consent of the Publisher of Marvel. It is understood the writer/artist lives in California and, therefore, one trip per year will be at the writer/artist’s expense and all other trips when requested by Marvel shall be at its expense.

6. Termination. Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to prevent Marvel from terminating WRITER’S/ARTISTS ‘S engagement hereunder at any time (a) because of his fraud, misappropriation, embezzlement, or the like, or (b) if he has become so disabled as to preclude him from rendering satisfactory services, or (c) if he shall have violated any provision of this Agreement, or (d) if WRITER/ ARTIST is unavailable, for whatever cause, for a continuous period of more than two months, or (e) if his work has not met the performance standards required by Marvel from other persons performing similar services for Marvel. In such event(s), except as provided in (b) above, all obligations of Marvel hereunder shall cease and WRITER/ARTIST shall be liable to Marvel for breach of this Agreement.

On May 1, Kirby officially begins his new contract with Marvel Comics.

creation of the Silver Surfer: “I better watch what I say, ’cause I never know; Jack may be here.

I’m not noted for always telling the truth, but at least people don’t usually catch me at it. But Jack may remember this, so I’ll be careful.

“I did not really create the Silver Surfer. Those of you who are historians or archivists, take note.

Jack and I Portrait done for the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel. were doing the Fantastic Four, and we came up with this plot; something to do with Galactus and our usual crazy stuff. I was telling Jack, he wasn’t listening, and I wasn’t paying attention to what he was saying. He went off and drew something. The way we worked, for those of you who don’t know, is not the way they work at other companies, where the writer writes a script, and it’s given to an artist, and the artist draws it, and that’s the end of it.

With us, it’s a marriage of talents. The artist and the writer will discuss the plot together, then the artist goes off to his little nook where he works, and he—without benefit of script!—only with this vague, ridiculous plot that he’s discussed, goes and draws the whole story all by himself.

“So following the basic plot, the artist draws it. Then, when the writer has to put in the copy, just imagine how much easier it is to look at a drawing and suit the dialogue perfectly to the expression of the character’s face—to what the drawing represents—than to try and write perfect dialogue when you’re looking at a blank sheet of paper, trying to imagine what the drawing will be like. So it worked out as the fastest way to work.

It also gives us the best results. And you’re all sitting there thinking, ‘What does this have to do with the Silver Surfer?’

“Here’s what it has to do. Jack and I had discussed a story dealing with Galactus. All I remember is we were saying, ‘We’ve already had Doctor Doom, we’ve already had Sandman, and all these powerful villains. What can we do to top what we’ve done?

The only thing to do is get a villain who’s practically a god... who doesn’t want to conquer the Earth; a villain who destroys whole planets!’ Well, that sounded good.

“It was easy for me to say it; now it was up to Jack to go home and draw it. I don’t remember; Jack may have come up with the name Galactus, or I might’ve. I probably wanted to call him Irving. The thing came back, and lo and behold, Jack had Galactus, and I loved it. Well, I love everything Jack does. I’d look at these drawings and I couldn’t wait to start writing the copy. All of a sudden, as I’m looking through the drawings, I see this nut on a surfboard flying in the air. And I thought, ‘Jack,

Summer 1975

In an interview done just prior to this July’s New York Comic Art Convention, Jack discusses his late 1950s and early 1960s work: “The [Challengers of the Unknown] issues I did were still formative and I can’t answer for what DC did with them. But they were heading for the super-hero image when I left. In many ways, they were the predecessors of the FF. “[At Marvel] I was given monsters, so I did them. I would much rather have been drawing Rawhide Kid. But I did the monsters... we had Grottu and Kurrgo and It... it was a challenge to try to do something—anything with such ridiculous characters. But these were, in a way, the forefathers of the Marvel super-heroes. We had a Thing, we had a Hulk... and we tried to do them in a more exciting way.

“I felt, for a while, like I was doing them all. The stuff I wasn’t penciling, I was doing layouts on. I got the books going—I think that was mainly my function—so that, as Marvel acquired a top-notch staff, they could keep them going. You should remember that prior to this the entire staff consisted of Stan Lee, Sol [Brodsky], and Artie [Simek]. Artie was in the most secure position, because no matter what, the books had to be lettered.”

July 1975: New York Comic Art Convention booklet, “Jack Kirby: In His Own Right / Kirby Kirby Kirby” with Steve Sherman and Mark Evanier

An excerpt from his upcoming book Son of Origins of Marvel Comics runs, giving Stan’s account of creating Daredevil all by himself, including his baton weapon, after which he goes in search of the right artist—Bill Everett—to whom he “mentioned the general idea of Daredevil.” But for the creation of Galactus and the Silver Surfer, Lee describes it as much more collaborative with Kirby: “Jack Kirby and I were wracking our brains for a new antagonist who would offer an even greater challenge than any of those encountered so far... We named him Galactus.

“After we discussed the storyline for a Galactus trilogy, Jack spent the next few weeks roughing out the first 20-page installment.

When he brought it to me, I was surprised to find a brand-new character floating around the artwork—a silver-skinned, smoothdomed, sky-riding surfer atop a silver surfboard.”

July 27, 1975: Arizona Daily Star (Tucson, AZ)

At the 1975 San Diego Comic-Con, Kirby hints that he may be returning to work on the Silver Surfer: “I have my

own ideas about the Silver Surfer, and I won’t discuss them myself until I talk with Stan about them, and when the opportunity arises, I’m certainly going to give him my views, and accept his views, and possibly we’ll come up with something very, very interesting. Like I say, I would follow the Marvel magazines, and we might spring some surprises on you.”

Jul 30-Aug 3, 1975: The 1975 San Diego Comic Con, “Jack Kirby/Jim Steranko panel”

At this same 1975 San Diego Comic-Con, Lee recounts the 131

this time you’ve gone too far.’ And under his cigar, Jack said,

forgotten the plot. This made the thing even more fun. If you’re going to write dialogue, it’s much easier when you’re looking at a drawing instead of a blank sheet of paper. The competition still hasn’t learned this technique gives our stories a certain freshness, a spirit, that I think is Marvel.

“We were getting a thousand letters a week from frantic Marvelites demanding more, more, more. All of us were carried along by an ever-mounting wave of excitement and enthusiasm, not to mention a healthy helping of greed. The only hero I could top the others with was Super-God. In lieu of that, I decided to feature gods. Thor, God of Thunder, was perfect. I liked the sound of the name. It was short, simple, easy to remember, and if you lisped, nobody would know.”

‘No, no, Stan. I figure anybody like Galactus, who’s that big and powerful and travels through space, needs a herald.’ That was about as

logical as anything else we’ve ever done, so I figured the Silver Surfer will be the herald.”

Stan Lee Speaks At The 1975 San Diego Comic-Con Convention: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhJuBqDTM9Q

Lee continues to recount the early days of Marvel for the press, and hones his message: “I was bored stiff with the slop I’d been writing for 20 years. So by 1961, I had to try something new in comic books, to give them weight, make them relevant.

“My wife told me if I’d put as much effort into my comic books as I did my other stuff, something good might come of them. So in 1960, we started doing stories maybe an adult would read, instead of the usual monster stuff we’d been peddling.

“We also tried to give our super-heroes three dimensions.

We devised good guys who were fallible, and bad guys with some good in them. Instead of living in fictional hometowns, they lived in New York City. “...I stumbled onto [the Marvel Method]. I’d be writing all the stories, and I’d be working on a Fantastic Four and the artist who’s doing Dr. Strange would come and say, ‘Stan, I’ve finished my script . I need another.’ But I’ve got the typewriter going for F.F. and I couldn’t stop. And I couldn’t let him sit around doing nothing. So I’d dream up a plot for him, tell him to draw it any way he wanted, and then I’d put in the dialogue later. It was a measure of expediency, so I wouldn’t be the bottleneck. Then I found out it worked better.

“The artists are great storytellers themselves. They know which sequence to enlarge upon, which to cut short because it’s dull. They’d put in characters I knew nothing about.

“Of course when the time came, I’d have

August 10, 1975: Tallahassee Democrat (Tallahassee, FL) article, “Spider-Man is a Marvel, but Stan Lee is Marvel,” by Peter Gorner, Chicago Tribune Service

September 1975

Marvel’s fan publication FOOM #11 is published, wherein Kirby discusses how he prefers to work solo, rather than in conjunction with someone else dialoguing and co-plotting his work: “I feel at ease with full control. It’s not the fact that you want to dominate every

Kirby refused to work on any of his past titles when he returned to Marvel in the 1970s, but he did contribute a number of new covers for them, featuring his co-creations.

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book that you’re working on. It’s just that you’re able to do the book in your own way, in your own manner. The book reflects what you want to put in it, what you want to see in it, and what you want to read in it.

Having done editing, writing, and drawing for years, I find myself in the happiest situation just working that way. I can mold the characters the way I think they should be. The characters become the kind of people I think the story needs. I feel I can give them a lot more dimension if I work on them individually. I feel that I have nobody else’s concepts blending with mine as far as working out the construction of the type of story I want it to be. So I’m happiest doing it that way.”

September 1975: FOOM #11, “Kirby Speaks” with Scott Edelman

After leaving Marvel for DC in 1970, Kirby adopted a policy of either fully plotting and dialoguing his own work, or if someone else would be dialoguing his stories, he would insist on a full script to work from. He maintained this stance at Marvel in the 1970s: Stan Lee, from the 1975 Marvel Con Program Book.

“[In 1976], I was trying to figure out a way to get Jack back on Fantastic Four. Since Stan was knocking himself upstairs and trying to keep out of stuff, I decided I would write Fantastic Four again, and I would get Jack to work with me on it. And I had a great plan. I would have Jack do the plots and get credit for the plots.

I mean, I would guide him as the editor, because I would be the editor and the scripter. I could even give him first credit on the page... since he was doing the plot and that’s part of the writing... I told Jack, if he’d do the plot and penciling, I’d write it.

“Jack agreed to do it—under one condition. He insisted that I plot out the stories, panel by panel, and send him that to pencil from. And I balked at that. I could see that Jack was determined that he wasn’t going to add one incident, one thought, to the story that I hadn’t given him. And if I was going to have to do that, I really didn’t see any special value in having Jack pencil the FF at that point. I’d prefer to work with Rich Buckler or someone else Kirby-influenced. So that was the end of my attempt to get Jack to do Fantastic Four.”

Roy Thomas:

To promote the book, Lee does a radio interview in Los Angeles, and arrives at the station in friend Hugh Hefner’s Mercedes limo. Host Carole Hemingway is a bit dismissive of comics, making for an awkward show at times, but things liven up once Stan’s former collaborator jokingly calls in: KIRBY: “Hello, this is Jack from Thousand Oaks. I was just wondering how I could send some samples in from this area...”

LEE: “Hey, wait a minute... you know who ‘Jack from Thousand Oaks’ is? Incidentally Jack, I phoned you earlier tonight, you were out...”

KIRBY: “I know, I know!”

LEE: “...why weren’t you at the drawing board? This guy on the phone right now is one of the greatest artists in the whole world! This is Jack Kirby who does most of our top strips, and who started most of the characters with me.

“Of course, we’re talking about you to the wrong one... I could [tell Carole] you’re Michelangelo, and she’d say, ‘Mike who?’... I mean, culture she’s not dripping with. But anyway, it’s good to hear from ya! What are you doing listening to this nothing show?”

August 18, 2017: Roy Thomas panel at TerrifiCon (Uncasville, Connecticut), moderated by Matt Herring

October 1975

KIRBY: “I’ve been drawing comics at a bar mitzvah here.”

Lee’s sequel Son of Origins of Marvel Comics is published. The book includes reprints of early Marvel work by Kirby and others, and it gives Lee’s accounts of the creation of the X-Men, Iron Man, The Avengers, Daredevil, Nick Fury, the Watcher, and the Silver Surfer. In it, Lee unequivocally gives Kirby credit for creating the Silver Surfer: “When such fabulous features as The Fantastic Four, the Mighty Thor, and The Incredible Hulk were just a-borning, it was good ol’ Jackson with whom I huddled, harangued, and hassled until the characters were designed, the plots were delineated, and the layouts were delivered so that I could add the little dialogue balloons and captions with which I’ve spent a lifetime cluttering up the illustrations of countless long-suffering artists.

“No sooner did I discuss the premise [of the X-Men] with Jack than we were off and running. We decided to create two groups of mutants, one evil and the other good... The more we discussed it, the better I liked it.

“The year is 1966. The scene is a little luncheonette where Jack Kirby and I had gone for a quick bite, and where we could continue our discussion of what to do for the next issue of Fantastic Four... Both Jack and I were wracking our brains for some opponent who would be able to offer a still greater challenge than any of those the FF had yet encountered.... Suffice it to say that we eventually came up with just what we had been looking for... The FF’s next super-foe would be—Galactus!”

LEE: “I’ll be darned. Listen, I’m gonna be in San Francisco tomorrow. I’ll call you. Tomorrow night. It’ll be cheaper to call you from there.”

KIRBY: “That would be fine.”

HEMINGWAY: “Do you guys have anything else you’d like to say? While everybody’s listening...”

KIRBY: “This has been a wonderful show really... I’ve been listening and...”

HEMINGWAY: “Jack, you’ve got to be kidding. This has been probably one of my worst shows.”

KIRBY: “Oh no, it’s just been great because, well, because being in comics myself...”

LEE: “‘...being in comics’? He’s practically the whole comics business!”

KIRBY: “Stanley’s covered a lot of details, and they’ve been extremely interesting, really.”

HEMINGWAY: “Jack, you sound like a rather sane and stable person.”

KIRBY: “Well, I’ll buy that testimonial.”

LEE: “Jack, next time, call sooner and save me, will ya?”

KIRBY: “Yeah, gee, I tried to get through and we all, you know…”

LEE: “...it was tough borrowing a dime way up there in Thousand Oaks!”

HEMINGWAY: “Thank you for your call. Bye-bye.”

LEE: “Talk to ya later, Jack.”

KIRBY: “So long!”

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HEMINGWAY: “That’s Jack from Thousand Oaks.”

LEE: “You know, seriously... your listeners are gonna say, ‘My God, was that Jack Kirby? You don’t know who you were talking to!’”

This must be a bogus anecdote, since in 1960, Stan hadn’t been working on any super-heroes for some time. And the “Atlas Monsters” wouldn’t be what he is referring to, as they don’t have “superhuman powers.”

Oct. 1975 interview with Stan Lee by Carole Hemingway on KABC radio in Los Angeles, transcribed by Rand Hoppe. My thanks to the Jack Kirby Museum for tracking it down.

Fall 1976

Jack Kirby attends the Lucca Comic Art Festival in Lucca, Italy, and is interviewed there: “The penciler is the one who tells the story,

December 1975

who visualizes it. It’s not a writer’s medium, a letterer’s medium, an inker’s medium, it’s just... the penciler tells the story, as I said; the writer could write his heart out, and be one of the finest writers in the world, but if he gets the wrong artist doing his story for him, it dies... the decisive factor is the artist.”

At Miamicon I, Lee and Kirby share another light-hearted moment, this time on stage together: “What are the two things you have trouble drawing? You’ve always told me this but I’ve never believed you.”

“The two things I’ve always had trouble drawing? ...Oh, yes! A laundromat and a shoeshine box. Now I found out I can’t draw skateboards.”

October-early November 1976: Jack Kirby interviewed at the Lucca Comic Art Festival in Lucca, Italy

Kirby is interviewed (from the short responses, likely by mail) for the fanzine Whizzard. One loaded question is more of a statement, as the interviewer gives his belief that Lee didn’t actually write any of the Fantastic Four stories, to which Kirby responds: “You are

Dec. 1975: Miamicon I, Stan Lee moderates a panel with Kirby and Neal Adams

Kirby is referring to the skateboards from the story “KillDerby” in Captain America #196, which he wrote and penciled the previous summer.

Winter 1976

While Kirby draws the first issue of his new title The Eternals early this year, Lee’s public persona reaches new heights, as he stars in a TV commercial for Personna razor blades.

Spring 1976

Kirby produces the 2001: A Space Odyssey film adaptation for a Marvel Treasury Edition.

Summer 1976

Kirby returns to one of his 1960s Marvel creations when he draws Black Panther #1. Also, he creates the first issue of an ongoing 2001 series, which expands beyond the classic film.

Meanwhile, Stan Lee is interviewed for a Dynamite Magazine article on Marvel Comics: “I had wanted to do Spider-Man for a long time, but my publisher didn’t. I said, ‘How about putting him into [Amazing Fantasy] #15. It’s not selling and we’re dropping it anyway.’ So we put Spider-Man on the cover. No one thought anything would come of it, but six months later someone ran into my office and told me we had a best-seller with Spider-Man! “I asked Jack Kirby to draw the first stories, but Jack drew too beautifully, so I asked Steve Ditko to draw him.”

About Spidey’s early adventures: “They almost seemed to write themselves. Everything we did just fell right into place. Spidey’s life almost plotted itself.”

Summer 1976: Dynamite Magazine article on Marvel Comics. Date is based on in-production comics that are in photographs appearing in the article.

But Lee’s comments in a newspaper interview appear to exaggerate the story about his wife Joan’s involvement in inspiring him: “It was about 1960 and I was sick of the whole thing. I told my wife I wanted to quit. But she said the problem wasn’t with me.

It was those dumb characters I had to work with. In fact, they weren’t really characters at all. That was the problem. They were just a collection of superhuman powers.”

August 25, 1976: The Times (Shreveport, LA) article, “Comic Book Creator Comments,”

by George Cantor, Knight News Wire

A quartet of new series from Kirby, during his 1970s return to Marvel. None caught fire, but in fairness, sales across the board were lackluster for much of Marvel’s output of that time.

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truly perceptive. However, I consider everyone involved with the success of the Marvel organization as having made a major contribution.”

To the notion that DC was glad to see him return to Marvel because they were losing money on his work there, Kirby is indignant: “That sounds psychotic. Everything I did for DC made money.

Perhaps someone was offended by my departure.”

Nov. 1976: Kirby interview for Whizzard fanzine, by Kenn Thomas

1977

Early this year, Kirby draws the first issue of Machine Man, a spin-off from his last three issues of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

As Lee’s celebrity increases this year, he appears in a print ad for Hathaway shirts. His byline says, “Stan Lee, Originator of Marvel Comics.” At different points this year, he gives accounts of the creation of the Marvel Universe, using anecdotes he’s now finely polished for his media appearances: “I guess it all started with the Fantastic Four. The was the first of the new wave of comics...

This was when we really tried to be different and more original than comic books had been. Among the many firsts, among the quartet was a man and his girlfriend. But we didn’t just make her a girlfriend who didn’t know he was really the man with the cape, you see. We made them engaged. And in later issues they got married, and presently they have a child. And they were in love, and they didn’t have secret identities.

Then there was the obligatory teenage character. Now I, along with all other red-blooded, normal American people, hate teenagers, which is perfectly natural. Teenagers, until they become real people, they’re horrible. So I was not about to make a teenager who would be like Robin is to Batman. I’ve always felt that if I were a super-hero, I would never run around with some little 14-year-old kid. At the very least, people would talk.

Well anyway, we had to have a teenager in the story, but what I did was I made him an itch. I mean a pest. He was rotten. He kept saying, ‘Hey, I’m not getting enough money to be in this group. I want to cut out,’ or, ‘I don’t want to go fight these criminals. I want to play with my motorcycle.’ You know, a real kid.

That’s what we tried to do with our characters.

“In other words, I tried to make them typical Americans.

They were surly, insolent, resentful, rotten, jealous, greedy, and the audience loved them.

“After we had all the other characters—we had the Fantastic Four, then we had Spider-Man, who was a teenager—he’s really our most popular one—then the Hulk and the mighty Thor, who’s the god of thunder, and on and on. At one point I said, ‘Gee, we don’t have a magician, and kids are interested in magic.’ It seemed to me Dr. Strange was a good name for a magician, and we subtitled him ‘The Master of the Mystic Arts.’ I always like corny, dramatic expressions. Again, in trying to be realistic, not only is he a magician, and he wears a cape, and he has a mustache—because all dramatic people have to have mustaches—but we decided he’d live in Greenwich Village. And he occasionally walks down the street and he has to watch out being mugged. Again, it’s the juxtaposition of the supernatural with a very mundane, everyday type of existence. One of the things about Dr. Strange, he visits other dimensions, and he can bring his ectoplasmic self out of his physical body, but he has to—as all good magicians must— utter incantations and chants, you see. If he wants something mysterious to happen, something supernatural, he will say, ‘By the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, so let it be!’ or, ‘By the hoary hordes of Hoggoth, you will vanish!’ He has these expressions.

What happened was, many times when I would lecture at college, kids would get up and they’d say, ‘Hey, Stan, we’ve been doing a lot of research about these incantations that Dr.

[above] Kirby with his Yellow Kid Award, presented to him during the Fall 1976 Lucca Comic Art Festival in Lucca, Italy, where he was a special guest. Photo by Shel Dorf. [below] Lee appears in a print ad for Hathaway Shirts. Press proofs from the 1977 Marvel Memory Album calendar are in the background, including Jack’s Captain America entry [inset].

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Strange mumbles, and we have found that they were influenced by ancient druid writings. Now c’mon, fess up. You stole that from the ancient druids, didn’t you?’

“I know as much about druidry as I do about brain surgery. I made the expressions up.”

comics of the 1940s: “The majority of them. Sometimes I’d hire a writer, and he’d say, ‘Oh, gee, I write westerns but I don’t write mysteries.’ Or, ‘I write mysteries but I don’t write war stories.’ I never understood that. A story is a story. If it’s a western, you call the guy hombre instead of mister; if it’s a war story, you use a couple of battlefield expressions.

“I like the idea of being a writer but, God, I hate to write.

I’ve never been the kind of writer who could even have the radio on when he’s working.... There’s no nicer feeling in the world than when you’re through writing and you’re holding those pages in your hand and you’ve finished it.

“This is how Jack Kirby and I created the Silver Surfer, one of our most popular characters: I gave Jack an idea for a Fantastic Four story about Galactus; when Jack brought in the drawings, there was The Silver Surfer character. I said, ‘Who’s this?’ He said, ‘Well, I figure somebody as powerful as Galactus ought to have a herald.’ Once I saw the pictures, I gave the Silver Surfer a personality and speech patterns I thought he ought to have. But had we not worked this way, there would not have

1977, month uncertain: Thirty Minutes with Stan Lee: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=areUni1_j9U

“Actually, [the Fantastic Four] wasn’t even an original idea. The fellow who was then the publisher said to me—I was the editor at the time and the head writer. That Kirby at San Diego Con, Summer 1976. doesn’t mean I wrote heads; I was the chief writer. He said to me, ‘You know, Stan, I found out that DC Comics has a book called the Justice League, and it’s selling pretty well. Maybe we ought to do a book with a lot of superheroes.’ I figured, ‘Okay’. So right away it started out as a copy, but I said, ‘I am not going to copy the Justice League... If we have to do a team, that’s fine, but we’re going to do it differently than anybody else does it.’ So instead of a lot of good guys who always won at the end, and they were brilliant, and they were superior to the villains, and they never did anything wrong, we came up with the Fantastic Four, who inevitably did something wrong.

And they weren’t really that much better than the bad guys. And I like to think that the stories were unexpected, and you never knew what was going to happen next.”

1977 interview produced at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJ-t60ywL4

Winter 1977

Lee and John Romita launch the Spider-Man newspaper comic strip on January 3. In Marvel’s own fan publication, Lee gives a nice anecdote about his take on the Thor legends: “I think most of the legends are very vague about Odin’s wife or wives; the few that I read always mentioned different women, and I could never pin it down.

So I thought of him as a widower.”

March 1977 cover-date: Stan Lee interview, likely conducted Jan. 1977 by David Anthony Kraft for FOOM #17

Lee is interviewed for the pornographic magazine Oui. This interview includes what will be a much-repeated anecdote of what might happen if Michelangelo and Shakespeare were alive today, and teamed up to draw and write a comic book: “Hey, let’s team up and do a comic. You draw; I’ll write.” Stan never says which would be considered the “creator,” or whether they would be co-creators, unfortunately.

To Stan’s credit, he does mention “Jack” offhandedly here, and mentions Kirby’s full name elsewhere in the interview. But in discussing how he started at Timely, he says, “I became the editor, because the guy I worked for left and I was the only other guy there.” He doesn’t mention Joe Simon by name.

He is asked whether he wrote all the Timely

g a new protagonist for the Kirby is again protecting his stake in creatin the exact date of its creation.

Silver Surfer Graphic Novel, by documenting

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been a Silver Surfer.

“We have had artists who didn’t follow the plot carefully.

Sometimes they’d bring in something that was so different, I couldn’t remember what the plot was. I really enjoyed that, because then I had to create a whole new story based on the drawings. It was like doing a crossword puzzle.”

‘Surfer’ book. If you can overlook an occasional typing error, you’ll find the pages explained in what I feel is the proper perspective in consideration of realistic rendering and dramatic value. Of course, it’s all done within the areas we discussed and I hope it comes across.”

for a title for our newest super-hero, I remembered my old pulp favorite—and the title Spider-Man instantly hit me.

“Even the man I chose to illustrate the web-spinner’s adventures marked a departure from the usual super-hero strip. Steve Ditko was as fine a draftsman and graphic continuity artist as one could find. Instead of depicting unreal creatures, with muscles bulging on muscles, Steve’s characters looked like the guy next door. Where the average super-hero strip was exaggerated and Lee in the Indianapolis News, overblown, his artwork was low-key and July 8, 1977. understated. It was just what I wanted.

It was vitally important to me that Spider-Man be the kind of character with whom any ordinary Joe could identify. I was certain that Steve’s untypical, unclichéd artwork would help.

“We all possess a certain degree of rottenness—just enough to make us interesting. We may be genuinely fond of our friends; we may respect and admire any number of people, wishing them success in all their endeavors; and yet, we never quite want them to succeed too much. If a close friend or relative does well, you rejoice for him. But if he does an awful lot better than you, it wouldn’t really break your heart to have him stumble once in a while. We never really want anyone to be too much better, richer, handsomer, smarter, sexier, or luckier than we are. Not too much. In fact, if a loved one can be something of a loser now and then, it’s usually a lot easier for that love to flourish and grow. Nothing breeds genuine, long-lasting affection as much as the knowledge that the recipient is just a teensy bit—just slightly, mind you, just the merest soupcon—inferior to you!”

March 14, 1977: Letter from Kirby to Lee

July 1977: Quest magazine article, “How I Invented Spider-Man” by Stan Lee

Summer 1977

Fall 1977

March 1977: Oui Magazine, interview with Stan Lee, by Anne Beatts

On January 24, Kirby sends his first batch of Silver Surfer Graphic Novel pencils to Lee, and includes a note stating: “Stanley,

just in case a little reiteration is needed in view of our discussion, I believe that the over-riding points of the story lie in the Galactus/Surfer relationship and our own helter-skelter position in the universe. It’s the Surfer’s story, of course, and his experience should be dominant (his love story—his life among Earth people—his decisions). However, I believe the reader will clearly be intrigued by the larger question of his own vulnerability in the scheme of things.

“Thus the symbolic arm of Galactus in the opening shot....

“I’m certain that if you studied the initial synopsis I sent you, panel for panel, the hurried typing will not obscure the meaning of the continuity. I list the Surfer’s approach to Earth, the revealing of details as he descends to the city.”

Jan. 24, 1977: Letter from Kirby to Lee

Jack is the one providing the synopsis, and the bulk of the story points and characterization, to Stan here; he’s documenting that fact.

Spring 1977

On March 14, Kirby mails a second batch of Silver Surfer pencils with a letter attached: “This is the second batch of continuity for the

For his magazine article, “How I Invented Spider-Man,” Lee redefines his account of the creation of Spider-Man, in such a fanciful way that people start questioning the story’s authenticity: “In 1961, something happened. For the first time within memory there seemed to be no special trend in the comic book field. No single title or group of titles seemed to excite the readers...

“Personally, I was bored. I had 20 years of writing and editing comics behind me... And then an off-hand remark by my wife caused a revolution in comics tantamount to the invention of the wheel. Eighteen simple words, electrifying in their eloquence and their portent for the future. Each momentous syllable is engraved in my memory: ‘When are you going to stop writing for kids and write stories that you yourself would enjoy reading?’ “...It made me suddenly realize that I had never actually written anything for myself.

“When the time came to create a teenaged hero for Marvel Comics, I decided to depict him as a bumbling, real-life teenager who by some miracle had acquired a super power... The more I thought about it, the faster the ideas came to me.

“I was doing what Joanie had suggested. I was writing stories for myself, trying for the kind of off-beat, irreverent feeling that had always attracted me to Mark Twain, Bernard, Shaw, and yes, Woody Allen.

“When I was about 10 years old, I used to read a pulp magazine called The Spider and subtitled ‘Master of Men’... to my impressionable, preteen way of thinking, the Spider was the most dramatic character I had ever encountered... In searching

On September 19, the first episode of The Amazing Spider-Man TV show airs, followed soon after by the November 4 debut of The Incredible Hulk TV show. Kirby draws the premiere issue of Devil Dinosaur this season.

1978

This year, Lee and John Buscema produce the book How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, teaching would-be comic book artists how to develop their work in the style that Kirby revolutionized in the 1960s.

In his introduction, Stan states flippantly: “John Buscema would organize, prepare, and illustrate our book—based on the highly successful course he teaches in his own workshop— and I would do the writing and 137

sneakily steal a disproportionate share of the credit, as is my wont.”

Lee takes time to reply to a fan about his working methods: “My method for the construction of the script consists of discussing the story with the artist and having the artist do the penciled art on his own, drawing whatever he wants so long as it tells the story we’ve discussed. I would then put Lee is featured in Central New Jersey Home News on March 10, 1978. in the dialogue and the captions and indicate where the dialogue balloons are to be placed and where the captions go, and then the script goes to the inker—it’s lettered of course. Then I have it proofread and that’s it. I proofread it myself if it’s my own story.

“My method of working with the authors and artists is to try and be as friendly as possible, be as fair as possible, and get the most work out of them as possible. Let them work as much as possible in their own style. Tell them the type of results I want, but not how to obtain them.”

credit for the creation of the Fantastic Four (“the result of Lee’s brainstorm”), The Hulk, and Spider-Man. When asked where he gets his ideas, he states: “I’m a voracious reader. If I’m sitting in a coffee shop with nothing to read, I’ll read the ketchup bottle label.

Inspiration comes from every source—Dickens, Mark Twain, Edgar Rice Burroughs, other comic books. You’d be surprised.”

1978: Super Star Heroes magazine, Stan Lee article “The Origins of Stan Lee” by Gene Wright

Winter 1978

Early this year, Kirby writes and draws What If? #11. The charming and affectionate story is titled “What if the Fantastic Four Were the Original Marvel Bullpen?” and it features Kirby, Stan Lee, Sol Brodsky, and Flo Steinberg as the Fantastic Four. Throughout, Kirby refers to Lee as “Stanley,” and Lee has this edited to just “Stan” before publication. The story is Roy Thomas’ idea.

[1986] “That was strictly my way of doing a satire. Stan Lee is

always billing himself as the fearless leader, so I did a satire on the fearless leader.”

May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Spring 1978

As Kirby’s contract with Marvel expires on April 30, he decides not to renew it, and instead focus on a new, more lucrative career in animation where, for the first time, he will get paid vacation leave and health insurance, as well as the respect of his employer.

“Some of Jack’s books of the time sold well, some didn’t. Sales were all over the place on a lot of comics and nothing was really solid. It was not uncommon for a book to do well and then to suddenly plunge in sales for no visible reason. The Eternals I think did quite well for a while... well enough to have an annual.

“The Black Panther never sold. It didn’t matter who did it.

Stan said that if Kirby couldn’t make it sell, we should just give up on it.

“Every writer wanted to work with Jack… There are writers... they put down other writer’s work to try and get the job...

Jack just wanted to do his thing and he’d earned the right.”

Archie Goodwin:

1978: Stan Lee’s reply to Éric Leguèbe (previously unpublished)

Also this year, Marvel makes plans to produce a company promotional video, titled The Marvel Age of Comics: 15 Minute History in Film, which would have Lee doing the voiceovers. It gets written and storyboarded, but apparently never produced. In the script, Lee states: “The Marvel Age of Comics. I guess you could say it all began in 1961. I had worked for Atlas and Timely Comics previously but... I knew it was time for a new direction in comics... I realized that today’s realities were more fantastic than anything in comics’ wildest dreams... yesterday’s dreams had become today’s realities! And then it struck me! Realities!

That was the key! Realities, that was to be the new direction of Marvel Comics!

“Then I got together with Jack Kirby and we came up with the idea that was to be the cornerstone of many projects to come: The F.F., four humans bombarded by cosmic rays changing them into four super-powered beings!... And the world of fantasy would never be the same again!

“I knew this was the right direction, and we had to have more... I went back to work, this time with a great artist by the name of Steve Ditko. Working for many a feverish day and night, slowly the ideas came together...”

Date unknown: Archie Goodwin interviewed by Mark Evanier

Posted by Scott Edelman in 2010: http://www.scottedelman.com/2010/02/13/the-marvel-age-of-comics-15minute-history-in-film/#more-18042

Lee once again repeats the anecdote from 1974’s Origins of Marvel Comics about his wife being the inspiration for trying something different at Marvel Comics, in an article that gives him sole

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Kirby feels that there are staffers in the Marvel offices who have been intentionally trying to damage his work and reputation—due to professional jealousy, loyalty to Lee, or resentment over Kirby’s refusal to draw other writers’ scripts.

One rumored instance includes Jack receiving a letter on Marvel stationery, making derogatory remarks about his current work:

[1982] “I would take the guys who I know are plotting and scheming to orchestrate the death of a book and fire them. I couldn’t blame them for impatience with another man, to get their shot at what he’s doing. I’m not against competition, but I’m against unfair competition.

“The health of a comic book can be manipulated by the staff alone. You fill up a book with knock letters. The reader who picks up the book and reads all those knock letters knows that the book he’s reading... well, it’s not so hot. And if you do it consistently, it becomes ‘a bad book.’ I haven’t seen anything like a bad book anywhere. I’ve seen a lot of guys trying... I’ve seen a lot of guys who’ll never get the chance to develop. And you can’t develop with two or three issues. You’ve got to give a man a chance to stay in there—either take his beating or succeed. And comics have not done that today.

“A guy will create a book, another will fill his book up with knock letters—he’s off in five months, or three months, and the other guy’s got his shot.

“I know who’s part of it, but naming names won’t help the situation any. It was a vicious competition.

“I see it as a serpent’s nest. And in a serpent’s nest, nothing can survive. Eventually all the snakes kill each other. Eventually they’ll also kill whatever generated them.”

Kirby sketches during a “Chalk Talk” in 1977.

sunny weather and the sensational view, we hammered out the main elements of the phantasmagoric parable soon to unfold before your bedazzled eyes. Then, I took my leave and returned to the real world, where I waited with bated breath until, months later, the penciled pages finally arrived. And then, the whole process began again.

“For days on end I studied the artwork, thrilled by the variety, the depth, and the quiet power of Jack’s drawings. I tried to absorb and digest the various nuances and implications of each individual scene and sequence. And then, finally the moment of truth arrived. The fun part was over. Now I had to write the thing!”

March 1982: Comics Scene #2 Kirby interview, conducted by Howard Zimmerman

In May, Lee and Kirby’s final collaboration is published. Stan’s Preface for the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel reads: “In the late 1950s, while collaborating on a myriad of fantasy tales, before the dawning of Marvel Comics, Jack and I had evolved another system of working, one which proved far more satisfying to us.

“Since my cigar-smoking colleague has always had the greatest creativity, the greatest imagination, and the greatest visual story sense that one could hope for, I realized that there was really no need for me to labor over a fully developed script if Jack was the be the illustrator. All that was necessary was to discuss the basic plot with him, turn him loose, and wait until he brought me the penciled drawings. And that’s what we did. Jack and I would discuss the high points of whatever story we intended to create, and then he’d trot off to his ivy-covered little inglenook to complete the drawings while I’d occupy myself with other bits of mischief elsewhere till he returned with the drawings done.

“Once I received the penciled pages, it was then my task to write the dialogue and captions, giving the story the proper rhythmic mood and establishing the necessary characterization...

“But what about today? I seem to sense the more curious amongst you wondering aloud how this very book itself came to be written. Since you’ve been so subtly prepared by the foregoing explanation, surely ’twill be no shock to you to learn that this very story was produced in the self-same manner. Ever eager for a trip out west, I bravely journeyed to Jack’s idyllic aerie high in the hills of Southern California. There, during a fateful visit while I waxed envious over the

May 1978: Stan Lee’s preface from The Silver Surfer Graphic Novel

Stan clearly says here that the writing takes place after the art is in his hands. So as I’ve been demonstrating throughout this book, the term “write” can have many different meanings when pertaining to comics.

Kirby’s original cover for the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel [left], and Earl Norem’s painted interpretation, deemed more commercial for the upscale bookstore market.

139

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“So far we’ve done the Silver Surfer [Graphic Novel] which has turned out to be an extremely good book, I think. I understand it’s doing very well...

“All the ideas are born from lots of people. Lots of people discuss them. Ideas are born and refined by a lot of people. Now for instance, you take Iron Man: We work on Iron Man and we give him one costume. Then we begin to change that costume into another costume.

You have to modify it continuously. People are continuously changing the super-hero. I know at Marvel, an artist would get an idea to change a super-hero or somebody else would get an idea for a change in costume or a change in address or a change in lifestyle for the super-hero. Ideas are born among lots of people, lots of people.

“I know I created the Silver Surfer and Galactus; in that particular instance it came out of a Biblical feeling. I couldn’t get gangsters to compete with all these super-heroes, so I had to look for more omnipotent characters, you know, super-villains. I came up with what I thought was God in Galactus; a God-like character.

Still thinking about it in the Biblical sense, I began to think of a fallen angel, and the fallen angel was the Silver Surfer. In the story, Galactus confines him to the Earth, just like the fallen angel. So you can get characters from Biblical feelings. If you’re feeling great you can come up with maybe a humorous character. You can do characters on water—I’ve done them on water. Create this type of character; create this type of environment. The Silver Surfer has a surfboard; and at the time I created him, everybody was surfing, and I felt, why not have a cosmic creature who, you know, instead of the sea he uses the entire universe to surf around?”

Summer 1978

I attend my first major comics convention, the Atlanta Fantasy Fair, and pick up the Kirby Masterworks Portfolio from Jim Steranko’s Supergraphics table. I meet Stan Lee, and Jack’s new Silver Surfer Graphic Novel pages are on display. But I overhear some Marvel staffers make disparaging comments about how Jack has “lost it” and can’t produce decent work anymore. I am stunned, to say the least, as I’m still enjoying his work greatly at the time.

Lee credits wife Joan for saying: “Why don’t you put some of the same activity and effort into comics that you put into your freelance work?”

Asked if he has any regrets, Lee says: “I wish I had made my move at Marvel 20 years ago, had done the different things earlier. I was stupid—for my first 20 years, I did what my publisher wanted. And I think I should have gotten out of this business 20 years ago. I would have liked to make movies, to be a director or a screenwriter... I’d like to be doing what I’m doing here, but in a bigger arena.”

July 20, 1978: Circus Magazine, Stan Lee interview by Ira Wolfman

Fall 1978

“Stan Lee is in New York. In fact, he’s all over the place. I rarely see Stan. His position is quite different than mine. Naturally, his duties are quite different... You know, I can’t account for whatever duties he has.

Nov. 8, 1978: Jack Kirby interviewed by Annie Baron-Carvais

140

Kirby signs for fans [above], and hangs out with fan-turned-pro Len Wein, at the 1978 San Diego Con.

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Conflict Here, Lee is inexplicably equating inkers, colorists, and letterers—who despite their talents, are all basic production people—with the penciler of the strip, who actually contributes to the creation of story and plot.

Does this give us insight into his own valuation of anyone who’s not handling the writing end of a comic book?

Winter 1979

While Kirby entrenches himself in the animation industry, People Magazine interviews Lee for a feature article. The headline reads: “Stan Lee, creator of Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk, is America’s biggest mythmaker.”

Spring 1979

On March 30, Jack Kirby has a cameo as a police sketch artist on The Incredible Hulk TV show episode “No Escape” [above].

In May, Lee’s New York apartment is robbed while he is in Los Angeles, giving him more reason to move to LA permanently. Stan is in talks with Lee Kramer, Olivia Newton-John’s manager and boyfriend, to produce a big-budget Silver Surfer movie, inspired by the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel.

Jan. 29, 1979: People Magazine interview with Stan Lee by Barbara Rowes

Men’s magazine Genesis interviews Lee: “Comics are a team effort. I can say I created SpiderMan, but Steve Ditko, the artist who worked on it with me, will say: ‘Hey, what about me? I drew it, and I helped with some of the plots.’ And

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Fall 1979

that goes for the inkers, Lee with friends from the 1979 Genesis magazine interview. colorists, letterers, and editors. It’s such a complex process, how the hell do you know whom to pay for what?”

Lee and John Buscema collaborate to produce the first issue of The Savage She-Hulk, and a Silver Surfer story for Epic Illustrated #1, while Kirby goes back to his early newspaper roots and draws the comic strip adaptation of Disney’s film The Black Hole.

February 1979: Genesis magazine, Stan Lee interview by Steve Swires

As this year begins, Kirby had just wrapped up work on Depatie-Freleng’s 1978 The New Fantastic Four animated series, doing storyboards such as the above example. Kirby rehashed old FF comics for these 13 episodes, and both Lee and Roy Thomas provided dialogue, but Jack didn’t work directly with either of them.

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company back together in their time of mutual need: “When I arrived at Marvel in 1959 [sic], it was

closing shop that very afternoon, according to what was related to me by ‘Stan Lee.’ “The comic book dept. was another victim of the Dr. Wertham negative cycle + definitely was following in the wake of EC Comics, The Gaines Publishing House.

“In order to keep working I suggested to ‘Stan Lee’ that to initiate a new line of ‘Super Heroes’ he submit my ideas to Martin Goodman, the Publisher of Marvel.

“The line that I came up with was: “Fantastic Four, a team of super-heroes.

“The Hulk, which was a spin-off of a single story I did for ‘Marvel’.

“Spiderman grew from a different script called ‘The Silver Spider’ which was written by Joe Simon’s brother-in-law—Jack Oleck—who is now deceased.

“Joe was out of the field at that time + I utilized Kirby draws at the 1980 San Diego Comic-Con. the ‘Silver Spider’ script to create a single new character. This was given for development to Steve Ditko after I drew After 41 years in New York, Lee moves permanently to Los the first cover with the original costume.

1980

Angeles. His publisher-chairman title at Marvel is intact (though partly emeritus), but he has new goals: Improving Marvel’s position in Hollywood, and setting up an animation studio.

As Lee’s star ascends, a bitter Wallace Wood slams Lee and the Marvel Method, in an essay about an editor named “Stanley”: “Well, he DID come up with two sure-fire ideas... the first one was ‘Why not let the artists WRITE the stories as well as draw them?’... And the second was... ‘ALWAYS SIGN YOUR NAME ON TOP... BIG.’ And the rest is history... Stanley, of course became rich and famous... over the bodies of people like Bill [Everett] and Jack [Kirby].”

Interestingly, Kirby states here that he drew the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15 with “the original costume”, meaning with his early Spiderman costume—if accurate, that means Ditko likely changed it to the published version when inking it.

“Thor quickly followed + was fleshed out with the character of the original legend.

“Sgt. Fury, a mixture of the ‘Dirty Dozen’. James Bond + my own war experiences became another successful book.

“I created many costumes for new ‘Super Heroes’ such as Iron Man, Ant Man + created all related characters such as ‘Silver Surfer’, Galactus, The Inhumans + many more which are included in the enclosed list.

“To ensure sales I also did the writing which I was not credited for, as ‘Stan Lee’ wrote the credits for all of the books, which I did not contest because of his relationship with the publisher Martin Goodman.

“This was later changed to ‘Produced by Stan Lee + Jack Kirby’ in some of the books.

“Although I was not allowed to write the ‘Balloon’ dialogue, the stories, the characters + the additional planning for the scripts’ progress was strictly due to my own foresight + literary workmanship.

“There were no scripts . I created the characters + wrote the stories in my own home + merely brought them into the office each month.”

1980: Wallace Wood essay “What Makes Stanley Run?” in the Woodwork Gazette #5 newsletter

In February, Irene Vartanoff takes a full inventory of what original art is currently stored in Marvel Comics’ warehouse, while Kirby begins work on the Thundarr The Barbarian animated series, launching a long association with the Ruby-Spears animation studio. Unlike his time at Marvel, for the first time he has job benefits, including health insurance.

Kirby’s work on Thundarr leads to steady work as an animation conceptualizer for the remainder of his working career.

Source: Handwritten notes signed by Jack Kirby, Justia, Dockets & Filings, Second Circuit, New York, New York Southern District Court, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al, Filing 97, Exhibit RR.

The above is the best example I’ve come across of the confusing nature of authorship terminology in comics. Kirby takes credit for the “script’s” progress, while saying there were no “scripts.” He obviously means two different things, depending on the word’s context, so all his comments need to be closely examined, to avoid any misunderstanding of what he is saying.

Summer sees Kirby’s debut issue of Captain Victory and the Galactic Rangers published by Pacific Comics, making it Jack’s first comic published specifically for the Direct Market of comic books stores. This launches a new distribution model for comics, which is still being used today.

1981

This year, Kirby’s fight with Marvel Comics over the return of his original art begins in earnest. In the early ’80s, he is asked by his legal team to make some notes about his work for the company. According to Mark Evanier, Kirby dictates the notes to Roz before signing them. In addition to details of creation and credit, he touches on the circumstances that brought him and the 142

Fall 1981

In September, Fantastic Four #236, the 20th anniversary issue, is published. It includes, without his permission, Kirby’s storyboards created for the 1978 Depatie-Freleng New Fantastic Four cartoon show repurposed as a story, with dialogue by Lee and tightened pencils and inks by ten artists. When he learns of it, Kirby demands the removal of his name and likeness from the cover, citing unauthorized use of his Fantastic Four storyboards inside for nefarious “celebratory purposes.”

When approached to be interviewed for fan publication The Fantastic Four Chronicles, Kirby declines to answer the first round of questions sent to him, which focus on his 1960s Marvel work. He also expresses his dismay to the interviewer over Marvel’s uncompensated reuse of his Fantastic Four animation storyboards to make a “new” Lee/Kirby story in Fantastic Four #236: “The trouble is that ‘Marvel wants it all.’ It worked that way in the past. But I’d like to see a more equitable future where deals can be worked out to the benefit of all who work for sales.”

October 1981 (Feb. 1982 cover date): The Fantastic Four Chronicles, published by FantaCo Enterprises, Inc., “Questions and Answers With Jack Kirby, Version Two,” interview by Roger Green

1981’s Captain Victory #1, and Fantastic Four #236’s anniversary issue. Kirby was drawn next to Lee at top right of the FF cover, but demanded he be removed, due to increasing tensions over Marvel refusing to return his original artwork.

Below is Kirby’s Destroyer Duck #1, which he donated the art for, to help Steve Gerber in his lawsuit against Marvel Comics, over the character Howard the Duck.

On November 2, comics great Wallace Wood dies, of a selfinflicted gunshot.

In late 1981, Kirby draws Destroyer Duck #1. It’s an effort to raise money for Steve Gerber’s current lawsuit against Marvel over the rights The glasses from this 3-D Kirby comic ended up on the Tonight Show. to a character he created, Howard the Duck. Jack coins the infamous company slogan for Godcorp (a satire of Marvel Comics), “Grab It All, Own It All, Drain It All” on his pencils for the first issue. Kirby also donates the cover art for the FOOG (Friends of Old Gerber) benefit portfolio.

Winter 1982

Kirby draws the one-shot Battle for a Three Dimensional World, which will have unintended consequences. The 3-D glasses that come with the comic state “Kirby: King of the Comics,” which is later misconstrued by Johnny Carson when he uses a pair as a prop on The Tonight Show, and inadvertently insults Kirby during his monologue on May 21. Carson publicly apologizes to Jack on-air two weeks later.

When asked why he is contributing his services free of charge to Steve Gerber on Destroyer Duck #1, Kirby responds: “I don’t know how it’s going to affect me. I’ll certainly

gain Steve’s friendship, I hope... Even if it wasn’t Steve Gerber, I would still do the same thing.

Because I feel that change has to be made. The comics may not be important to me right now, but they are important. It’s important that all the media stay alive, so that the ordinary guy can get his chance, without having to pay some ugly price for what he wants to do. The industry could fight tooth and nail on that and it could continue, but the chance that it could change is the important thing in pursuing Gerber’s case.

“When I said that Marvel or DC were really ads for toys, I meant it. They’ll give the staff the chance to develop, but not the men who create, who participate, who are in the arena. It’s the guy who is in the arena who counts. He’s selling your book. And not only that: he’s creating a silent movie. I mean, it’s a visual art.

“So you need standards. You need certain standards and discipline and professionalism. Any sort of pettiness or vindictiveness, any sort of toughness, is harmful to a good enterprise. A good 143

But I wanted to tell them in an entertaining way. And I told it in the Fantastic Four and I told it in Sgt. Fury... If I wanted to tell the entire truth about the world, I could do it with Robinson Crusoe, and do Robinson Crusoe for the rest of my life.”

March 1982: Comics Scene #2 Kirby interview, conducted by Howard Zimmerman

Summer 1982

Kirby is in Pensacola, Florida in June for the bat mitzvah of the daughter of local physician Dr. Gerrold Cohen, and is interviewed by the local paper: “To me, there are no villains, no heroes. I believe that people, when frustrated, will come into conflict with others. And people, when inspired, will do things that transcend themselves, and I think that’s what it takes; to me that’s a hero.”

In 1959, when Marvel was about to close up shop, “I asked them not to.

“All my characters are people, no matter how fantastic they may seem. I give them people problems.”

June 23, 1982: Pensacola News Journal (Pensacola, FL) article “Comic King Brings Heroes Down To Earth,” by Mike Suchcicki, Journal Staff Writer

Kirby is also interviewed by Will Eisner, his Golden Age contemporary and one-time boss, for Eisner’s own magazine: “I came back to Marvel there. It was a sad day. I came back the afternoon they were going to close up. Stan Lee was already the editor there and things were in a bad way. I remember telling him not to close because I had some ideas. What had been done before, I felt, could be done again.

I think it was the time when I really began to grow. I was married. I was a man with three children, obligations.

“I began to do monster books. The kind of books Goodman wanted.

Kirby draws Captain Victory at the 1983 San Diego Comic-Con.

enterprise needs all the cooperation it can get. I’m sure that, today, they’ll have a conference at any one of the publishers and they’ll sit down and say, ‘Come up with ideas.’ And there are men who will come up with ideas, but they’ll all be second-rate. They are all capable of first-rate ideas, every one of them, but not within that structure.

“If there’s anybody who knows Stan Lee, I’m the guy who knows him. Stan Lee as a person is no better or worse than anybody else. I wasn’t competing with Stan. I got along very well with Stan. We were very good friends. And, my God, I came up with an army of characters!... I felt that [Lee’s] plans, somehow, didn’t mesh with mine. Stan was already a publisher at that time and could call the shots. If you can call the shots on somebody... you win.

“My business with Joe was gone. I did a few things for Classics Illustrated which drove me crazy.

I wanted a little stability, and I needed the work.

Marvel seemed to be the place, and comics seemed to be the only thing I was really good at. And I already had responsibilities; I was a father, I owned property, I had to work.

“Marvel was going to close. When I broke up with Joe, comics everywhere were taking a beating.

The ones with capital hung on. Martin Goodman had slick paper magazines, like Swank and the rest. It was just as easy for Martin to say, ‘Oh, what the hell. Why do comics at all?’ And he was about to—Stan Lee told me so. In fact, it looked like they were going to close the afternoon that I came up. But Goodman gave Marvel another chance.

“I wrote them all. Well, I never wrote the credits. Let’s put it that way, all right? I would never call myself ‘Jolly Jack.’ I would never say the books were written by Lee. “I did a mess of things. The only book I didn’t work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did. But Spiderman was my creation. The Hulk was my creation. It was simply Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I was borrowing from the classics. They are the most powerful literature there is...

“I was beginning to find myself as a thinking human being. I began to think about things that were real. I didn’t want to tell fairy tales. I wanted to tell things as they are.

I had to fight for the super-heroes.

In other words, I was at the stage now where I had to fight for those things and I did. I had to regenerate the entire line. I felt that there was nobody there that was qualified to do it. So I began to do it. Stan Lee was my vehicle to do it. He was my bridge to Martin [Goodman].

“I was doing the writing . It all came from my basement and I can tell you that if I ever began to intellectualize, it was then...

All right. That’s unimportant.

All right, I’ll tell you from a professional point of view. I was writing them. I was drawing them.

“My opinion is this: Stan Lee wrote the credits. I never wrote the credits.

Bringing things full-circle, “[Spiderman] was the while Kirby is staking his claim to creating last thing Joe and I had disSpiderman, Steve Ditko produces several issues of Simon & Kirby’s character The Fly in 1983 for Archie Comics. cussed. We had... a script 144

that was the basis.”

July 1982: Will Eisner’s Spirit Magazine #39 interview, conducted by Will Eisner

Lee has specifically claimed credit for Thor’s buddies: [1998] “I made [the Warriors Three] up. I specifically remember that I did them because I wanted a Falstaff-type guy, a guy like Errol Flynn, and then I wanted a guy like Charles Bronson who was dire and gloomy, riddled with angst. Those three were mine.”

May 1998: Stan the Man and Roy the Boy: A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas, Comic Book Artist #2

1983

While Kirby launches his final new original character, in the series Silver Star for Pacific Comics, Lee teases getting back into writing comics: “I told [Jim] Shooter if he could get somebody that worked from a very simple synopsis like Kirby, Ditko, Romita, Buscema, Kane, and Colan used to do, I would love to do a Silver Surfer book as a regular comic. But I guess he hasn’t been At the request of publisher Richard Kyle, in 1983, Kirby drew his autobiographical able to find anybody.” story “Street Code.” The all-pencil art tale about growing up in New York’s Lower In response to Kirby’s East Side ghetto didn’t see print until recent claims of creating 1990’s Argosy Vol. 3 #2.

Spider-Man, Lee notes, “I really don’t know what to say about that.

I honestly don’t understand it. Years ago, when I wanted to do Spider-Man, I called Jack and told him: ‘I want to do a character called Spider-Man who sticks to the walls, who does this and who does that.’ And I told him I wanted him to draw it, how I wanted it done, and I told him I didn’t want it done in his usual style. I didn’t want the character to look too heroic or too monster-like. I wanted him to look like an average guy. Jack did a few pages. I saw them and said, ‘No, it is all wrong. Let’s forget it, Jack. It is just not your style.’ I took it away from him and gave it to Steve Ditko. I don’t know whether this is the case or not, but maybe when Ditko did the story, he used the costume that Jack created. I don’t remember. I guess Ditko and Jack are the only two guys who know that.

If Ditko is still around, I’d appreciate it if you would ask him and let me know the answer. And if, indeed, the costume is the one that Jack originally drew, that may be what Jack

Kirby’s earlier version of Thor from DC Comics’ 1957 comic Unexpected #16. He also depicted a villainous version even earlier in 1942’s Adventure Comics #75 [right].

called The Silver Spider. The Silver Spider was going into a magazine called Black Magic. Black Magic folded with Crestwood and we were left with the script . I believe I said this could become a thing called Spiderman, see, a superhero character. I had a lot of faith in the super-hero character, that they could be brought back, very, very vigorously.

They weren’t being done at the time. I felt they could regenerate and I said Spiderman would be a fine character to start with. But Joe had already moved on. So the idea was already there when I talked to Stan.

“Stan Lee wouldn’t let me fill in the balloons. Stan Lee wouldn’t let me put in the dialogue. But I wrote the entire story under the panels.

I never explained the story to Stan Lee. I wrote the story under each panel so that when he wrote that dialogue, the story was already there. In other words, he didn’t know what the story was about and he didn’t care because he was busy being an editor. I was glad because he was doing the same thing Joe did. He left me alone.

“I believe that the man who draws the story should write it...

I began to define characters... I began with the classics that were very powerful. What comics were doing all the time was updating the classics. So, I borrowed from Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I felt there was a Mr. Hyde in all of us and that was a character I wanted and I called him the Hulk. In the legend of Thor, I began to update Thor.

I felt that Thor needed friends so I went to the Four Musketeers, and 145

1984

means when he says that he created Spider-Man. But in no way, shape, manner or means did Jack Kirby create SpiderMan. I don’t even now how he can dare to say that.

It is the one strip that we did that he had virtually nothing to do with at all, except for a few pages that we never used.”

Comics Scene #2, March 1982.

When pressed about Jack’s contention that Spidey was based on the Silver Spider, and that he pushed Stan to do super-heroes, Lee was adamant. “Well, I think that Jack has taken leave of his senses. I have never heard of the Silver Spider. Jack never pushed me to do super-heroes. What happened was, one day, Martin Goodman called me into the office—this is when Jack and I were doing all those monster stories—and Martin, who was publisher at the time, said: ‘You know, Stan, I’ve just seen some sales figures fro this DC magazine’—it may have been the Justice League, but I no longer remember—‘it is ding pretty well.

Maybe we ought to do some super-heroes… Let’s do a team like the Justice League.’ And I said, ‘Fine.’ I went home and wrote an outline, a synopsis for the Fantastic Four. And I called Jack, handed him the outline, and said, ‘Read this. This is something I want to do. And you should draw a team.’

“Jack, of course, contributed many ideas to it. And I would venture to say that Jack and I co-created the Fantastic Four in a way--although the name was mine, the characters were mine, the concept was mine, originally. But he never pushed me to do super-heroes. Jack was at home drawing these monster stories, until the day I called him and said, ‘Let’s do the Fantastic Four.’ I think Jack is really—I don’t know what to say. I don’t want to say anything against him. I think he is beginning to imagine things.

“I haven’t seen Jack in a couple of years. Considering all the stuff I hear he is running around saying, it is probably just as well that I don’t see him.”

Asked about his work on the syndicated Spider-Man newspaper strip, Lee bitterly states, “Yeah, well, Jack will probably claim he does that, too.”

When late night talk show host Alan Thicke comments that Lee both created and drew the Marvel characters, Lee clarifies his role: “No, I created a lot of them, and I was the head writer, the art director, and the editor. Then a few years later, they made me the publisher, so I stopped writing them. Now the only comic book writing I do is the Spider-Man newspaper strip, which is around the world.”

1984: Stan Lee on Thicke of the Night: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ9B1FRTemA

In August, Kirby receives a specialized four-page agreement from Marvel that contains 14 conditions on having his artwork returned. All other past Marvel artists have received a simpler one-page form. Kirby’s agreement only guarantees 88 pages of the 13,000 he drew will be returned, as a “gift,” and it requires him to agree that his 1960s stories were all work-for-hire, that Marvel has all rights to them, and that he can’t sell or publicly display the art without Marvel’s permission.

Kirby refuses to sign and attempts to negotiate behind-thescenes with Marvel, with no success.

1985

Kirby continues to push his version of the creation of the Marvel Universe: “I was a penciler and a storyteller, and I insisted on

doing my own writing. I always wrote my own story no matter what it was. Nobody ever wrote a story for me. I created my own characters.

I always did that. That was the whole point of comics for me. I created my own concepts and I enjoyed doing that. That’s how I created the Silver Surfer.

“I did a version of Thor for DC in the Fifties before I did him for Marvel. He had a red beard but he was a legendary figure, which I liked. I liked the figure of Thor at DC and I created Thor at Marvel because I was forever enamored of legends. I knew all about these legends which is why I knew about Balder, Heimdall, and Odin. I tried to update Thor and put him in a super-hero costume. He looked great in it and everybody loved him, but he was still Thor.

“I’d been using gangsters and it wasn’t fair for super-heroes to fight gangsters. My basic philosophy, if you want to call it that, is fairness.

I believe in fairness. Gangsters wouldn’t stand a chance against super-heroes, so I had to find people as good as super-heroes who could compete on their own level and that gave rise to the super-villain. I found myself coming out with the most powerful villain, and the most controversial (which is great for sales), and that’s Galactus. I felt that somewhere around the cosmos are powerful things that we know nothing about and from that came Galactus.

He was almost like a god and that’s where I came up with the god concepts. There might be things out there that are ultimates compared to us.”

March 1985: Comics Feature #34 interview, conducted by James Van Hise

July 1983: Stan Lee interviewed by Jim Salicrup and David Anthony Kraft in Comics Interview #5

On March 6, a Variety Magazine ad for Cannon Films’ Captain America movie appears in print. The ad states, “Based on Stan Lee’s Marvel Comic Strip Character.” Kirby,

In a separate interview in that same publication, Stan mentions: “...the artists would always add their own things above and beyond what I had told them in the plot. Jack Kirby, for example; he would change my original plot so much, half the time I couldn’t recognize it. Which was fine with me; it made it more interesting. It was always like doing a crossword puzzle when I was doing these things.”

July 1983: Stan Lee interviewed by Dan Hagen in Comics Interview #5

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through his attorney, demands that credit line be removed, since Stan Lee wasn’t yet working at Timely Comics when Simon and Kirby created Captain America. This is the catalyst that finally makes Kirby go public with his battle over original art and creator credit.

According to Marvel’s paperwork trail, Kirby’s attorney raises the issue of copyrights for Spider-Man, Hulk, and the Fantastic Four in a letter dated April 15.

“In the early 1980s, when Marvel is fighting with Jack Kirby over this artwork, fandom views Stan as the ‘face of Marvel’ and begrudge him this. They still do today. You could never convince some people that Stan is not Marvel, that he doesn’t run Marvel; he’s simply their icon. I’m sure it bothered him, mostly because he wanted all the artists to get their artwork back, but he had nothing to do with it at that time and had nothing to say about it. He wasn’t even aware of the problem until he read about it in the trades... He has never run the business or been in a position to decide who will or won’t get their artwork back.”

Summer 1985

“In the ’70s Irene Vartanoff was in charge of returning original art. She used to tell me horror stories about stuff getting water damage, and fire damage, and being stolen. She told Stan one day, ‘There’s a bit of John Romita’s artwork at the warehouse, and I’m afraid it’s going to be stolen or damaged.’ This is after art returns had been given to other people, but by then I wasn’t doing any new stories. Stan signed a slip and I ended up getting probably two out of every five stories I ever did. I got a batch of Spider-Man stories, and I got the two Daredevil stories in one big envelope. And here’s the heartbreaking thing: One of the pages in the envelope was a page of layouts by Jack Kirby that I had not used! It was a perfect example with all of Jack’s notes and the way he used to do the layouts.”

Joan Lee:

Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy!

But in at least one other instance, Lee is able to intervene on behalf of one artist who wasn’t as involved in creatorship.

John Romita:

On June 1, at the Acmecon Convention in Greensboro, North Comics Feature #34, March 1985.

Carolina, Jack elaborates on his arrival at Marvel in the 1950s: “Those were bad times for

1985 Acmecon photo by Patrick Varker.

comics, and I can’t describe the times, but there were good outfits like EC, who folded up. DC was having a hard time. The day I came up to Marvel, they were closing down the comics. And I said to the senior editor, ‘Tell ’em not to close up the comics!’

“I can tell you, it was closing up that very afternoon that I came up. And [I got] very little gratitude. But that’s part of business.”

2007: John Romita interviewed by Roy Thomas for John Romita... And All That Jazz

At the beginning of August, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby have an encounter at the Marvel Comics 25th Anniversary party being held at this year’s San Diego Comic-Con. Marvel’s editor-in-chief, Jim Shooter, is witness to the meeting, and later recounts, “I’m watching history here. They’re really getting friendly again. They really seemed to be becoming friends. Then Stan says, ‘Ya know, Jack, I don’t care who owns [the Marvel character copyrights]. I don’t care who gets the credit. You can own it, you can have the credit. I’d just like to work with you once more’.” Kirby allegedly nods and says, “Well, that will be fine,” but Roz Kirby, pulling her husband away from the conversation, says, “Over my dead body.”

As I’d expect in such a situation, Lee is offended.

June 1, 1985: Acmecon Comic Book Convention, Greensboro, NC; Kirby interviewed

by John Hitchcock: https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=payZ1AFRFlc&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

All summer, the Kirbys’ legal dispute with Marvel over ownership of his original artwork plays out in the public arena. A panel discussion at August’s San Diego ComicCon devolves into a shouting match, and the legal battle is covered extensively in The Comics Journal, bringing widespread awareness about the conflict. “[Jack] always wanted his art back from the beginning. He always thought that the art was valuable, and from the beginning he’d always ask them for his art back. They said no, they don’t do that, they were preserving it in their warehouses and all that stuff, so it was an ongoing thing. Until I had to get the lawyers, so it cost us a lot of money to get the artwork back, as much as we got back. Jack always thought of his art as art, he always thought of comic books as art.”

Roz Kirby:

December 12, 1995: Roz Kirby interview conducted by John Morrow for Jack Kirby Collector #10

Lee, rightly or wrongly, begins taking heat for not stepping in to help his former collaborator. Publicly, he claims to have no power or control over the situation, and with all the potential legal snarls over Kirby’s vast involvement in the creation of the Marvel characters, he likely doesn’t. But at the time, his denials in the fan press sound hypocritical to me, and after years of believing Kirby and Lee were the best of friends and partners, the fan inside me feels betrayed and angry. I take the personalized autograph I received from Lee at the 1978 Atlanta Fantasy Fair, and destroy it.

In 1984 and 1985, Kirby got a chance to finally wrap-up, and continue, his 1970s “Fourth World” series for DC Comics. The Hunger Dogs Graphic Novel put an ending of sorts to the saga, while two Super Powers mini-series gave him some profit participation in the characters he had created for the company.

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Whatever Happened To Kirby’s Art?

Throughout this book, I’ve presented quotes from Lee and other Marvel staffers, discussing how original art was warehoused, and in earlier years it was destroyed to make room on the shelves. I’ve also heard apocryphal tales, like how one artist would liberate other artists’ pages from the offices—at least once having to return them, since they hadn’t been printed yet. At this late stage, it’s hard to know for sure what happened to all the Kirby art that wasn’t on Irene Vartanoff’s 1980 inventory count, but an interesting piece of history recently appeared online that adds to the discussion.

Robert Beerbohm posted a photo taken between August 29-September 2, 1968 at Baycon in Oakland, California, part of the 1968 World Science Fiction Convention held at the Claremont Hotel. The photo shows a dealer’s table with the following Kirby original art for sale—all of which is probably stolen from the Marvel offices. Let’s examine what it would be worth today: • “The Return of the Mole Man!” page 1 splash, Fantastic Four #22 • “When a Planet Dies!” page 1 splash, Strange Tales #97 (sold at Heritage Auctions for $7475 in Jan. 2006) • “The Jaws of the Dragon!” page 1 splash, Journey into Mystery #123 • “While A Universe Trembles!” page 1 splash, Journey into Mystery #123 (sold at Heritage Auctions for $38,240 in Feb. 2016) • “The Mighty Thor vs. The Executioner!” page 1 splash, Journey into Mystery #84 (sold at Heritage Auctions for $44,812.50 in November 2009). The price today would be much more. And even though the auction house got a 19.5% commission of the sale, that’s still over $36,000 the seller pocketed—back in 2009—for a single page from Journey into Mystery #84.

Just a few of the other Kirby items in the 2009 Heritage Auctions listings include: • Journey into Mystery #86, page 6 (not in the 1980 Vartanoff inventory): $11,950.00 • Fantastic Four #10, page 1: Not sold (didn’t meet the $28,000 reserve price) • Fantastic Four #16 (Mr. Fantastic Feature Page): $10,456.25 • Fantastic Four #61, page 9 (not in the 1980 Vartanoff inventory): $8962.50 Again, these were the 2009 sale prices. Looking further at the Heritage site, the cover for Thor #154 sold for $71,700.00 in May 2014—then skyrocketed and sold again for $161,325.00 in Feb. 2018. That’s a 225% increase in four years.

The highest sold price for a Kirby original as of this writing (Summer 2018) is $167,300.00 for the cover art to Tales of Suspense #84. But expect that record to be broken (possibly by the time this sees print).

If Kirby had gotten all this art back, he would have been a very wealthy man, justly rewarded for his years of hard work at Marvel, and able to leave a comfortable financial legacy for his heirs.

Photo by Jay Kay Klein

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Just one month prior to drawing Incredible Hulk #1 in Nov. 1961, Kirby did a similar Jekyll/ Hyde character transformation in “The Midnight Monster” in Journey Into Mystery #79.

monster out of him, because of his own frustration. If you had to see yourself in the mirror, and the Thing looked back at you, you’d feel frustrated. Let’s say you’d feel alienated from the rest of the species. Of course, radiation had the effect on all of the FF—the girl became invisible, Reed became very plastic. And of course, the Human Torch, which was created by Carl Burgos, was thrown in for good measure, to help the entertainment value. I began to evolve the FF. “My initial concept [for Spiderman] was practically the same.”

I have to object: From all the evidence I’ve seen, they weren’t at all the same—but Kirby did work on his version first. Carry on, Jack:

Kirby’s first “Hulk” from Journey into Mystery #62 (and his return in #66).

Below is the jolly green giant we know better today, from Kirby’s 1966 t-shirt design for Marvel.

“But the credit for developing Spider-Man goes to Steve Ditko; he wrote it and he drew it and he refined it. Steve Ditko is a thorough professional. And he’s an intellect. Personality-wise, he’s a bit withdrawn, but there are lots of people like that. But Steve Ditko, despite the fact that he doesn’t disco—although he may now; I haven’t seen him for a long time—Steve developed SpiderMan and made a salable item out of it. There are many others who take credit for it, but Steve Ditko, it was entirely in his hands. I can tell you that Stan Lee had other duties besides writing Spider-Man or developing Spider-Man or even thinking about it.

“I didn’t present it to Ditko. I presented everything to Stan Lee. I drew up the costume, I gave him the character and I put it in the hands of Marvel. By giving it to Stan Lee, I put it in the hands of Marvel, because Stan Lee had contact with the publisher. I didn’t. Stan Lee gave it to Steve Ditko because I was doing everything else...”

On August 21, Marvel finds a copy of the May 30, 1972 agreement Kirby signed with Goodman, assigning any rights he has on the Golden Age issues of Captain America Comics to Marvel. (It had been mistakenly filed with papers for the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel, which is why it wasn’t found sooner.) It’s sent to Kirby’s attorney on August 29.

In 1985, Leonard Pitts Jr. interviews both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee separately, and the differences in their accounts come to light: “...it suddenly struck me

that the thing that hadn’t been done since the days I returned from the service was the super-heroes. And so, I came up with Spiderman. I got it from a strip called the ‘Silver Spider.’ And I presented Spiderman to Stan Lee and I presented the Hulk to Stanley. I did a story called ‘The Hulk’— a small feature, and it was quite different from the Hulk that we know. But I felt that the Hulk had possibilities, and I took this little character from the small feature and I transformed it into the Hulk that we know today. Of course, I was experimenting with it. I thought the Hulk might be a good-looking Frankenstein.

I felt there’s a Frankenstein in all of us; I’ve seen it demonstrated. And I felt that the Hulk had the element of truth in it, and anything to me with the element of truth is valid and the reader relates to that. And if you dramatize it, the reader will enjoy it. Sleaziness and reality, you can walk out in the street anywhere and get that. But to get good, dramatized entertainment was very rare. What I did was take what I know and dramatize it.

“The idea for the FF was my idea. My own anger against radiation. Radiation was the big subject at that time, because we still don’t know what radiation can do to people. It can be beneficial, it can be very harmful. In the case of Ben Grimm, Ben Grimm was a college man, he was a World War II flyer. He was everything that was good in America. And radiation made a monster out of him—made an angry

When Pitts asks Kirby about Lee’s contention that Stan created Spider-Man, assigned it to Jack, and gave it to Ditko after finding Jack’s version too heroic-looking, Kirby lays it on the line: “That’s a contradiction

and a blatant untruth.

“Stan Lee had never created anything up to that moment. And here was Marvel with characters like the Sub-Mariner, which they never used. Stan Lee didn’t create that; that was created by Bill Everett. Stan Lee didn’t create the Human Torch; that was created

by Carl Burgos. It was the artists that were creating everything. Stan Lee—I don’t know if he had other duties... or whatever he did there...

“What I’m trying to do is give the atmosphere up at Marvel. I’m not trying to attack Stan Lee. I’m not trying to put any onus on Stan Lee. All I’m saying is: Stan Lee was a busy man with other duties who couldn’t possibly have the time to suddenly create all these ideas that he’s said he created. And I can tell you that he never wrote the 149

stories—although he wouldn’t allow us to write the dialogue in the balloons. He didn’t write my stories.”

“Well, yes, I am hurt because up at Marvel, I’m a non-person.

They say Stan Lee created everything. And of course, Stan Lee didn’t.

And Ditko is hurt; Ditko never got his due. The fellas who did make all the sales for the magazines were never given credit for them. They were abused in one way or another. I can tell you that that’s painful.

You live with that. You live with that all your life. I have to live with the fact of all those lies, which are being done for pure hype.”

You plotted and he did the dialogue?

“You can call it plotted. I call it script . I wrote the script and I drew the story. I mean, there was nothing on the first or second page that Stan Lee ever knew would go there. But I knew what would go there. I knew how to begin the story. I wrote it in my house. Nobody was around there to tell me. I worked strictly in my house; I always did. I worked in a small basement in Long Island. “...I told Stan Lee what I wrote and what he was gonna get and Stan Lee accepted it, because Stan Lee knew my reputation. By that time, I had created or helped create so many different other features that Stan Lee had infinite confidence in what I was doing.

“Actually, we were pretty good friends. I know Stan Lee better than probably any other person. I know Stan Lee as a person... I never was angry with him in any way. He was never angry with me in any way. We went to the Cartoonists’ Society together. Watching Marvel grow was beneficial for both our egos. They wanted to discontinue The Hulk after the third issue and the day they wanted to discontinue it, some college fellas came up from either NYU or Columbia—I forget which college it was—and they had a petition of 200 names and they said the Hulk was the mascot of the dormitory. I didn’t realize up to that moment that we had the college crowd.”

Why did you leave the FF and Marvel that first time?

“Because I could see things changing and I could see that Stan Lee was going in directions that I couldn’t. I came in one night and there was Stan Lee talking into a recording machine, sitting in the dark there. It was strange to me and I felt that we were going in different directions.

“Read What Makes Sammy Run. Sammy, in that book, is the kind of a character you wouldn’t want to be responsible for developing. I felt that I was developing a Sammy—which I was, in Stan Lee. I felt it was my time to go.

“Stan Lee is what he is. I’m not going to change him, I’m not going to dehumanize him, I’m not going to default him. He has his own dreams and he has his own way of getting them. I have my own dreams but I get them my own way. We’re two different people. I feel that he’s in direct opposition to me. “...Stan Lee’s... indoctrinated one way and he’s gonna live that way. He’s gonna benefit from it in some ways and I think he’ll lose in others. But he doesn’t have to believe me. Nobody else’ll believe me if they don’t want to, but that’s my opinion. I can only speak for myself.

“The only thing I can add is that I’ve been telling the truth and I’ll never speak to another person without telling the truth. I’ve been a cruel man in my time, I’ve been a devious man in my time, like everybody else. I’ve told lies in my time. But I’ve seen enough suffering to experiment with the truth.

“Since I’ve matured, since the war itself—I’ve always been a feisty guy, but since the war itself, there are people that I didn’t like, but I saw them suffer and it

In February 1963 in the Fantastic Four #17 letter column, Lee mentioned a “Bring-Back-TheHulk” petition Marvel received from students at City College of New York after the Hulk’s cancellation, but Jack may be thinking of an even earlier occurrence.

“I wanted to do a satire of Stan and I getting thrown out of a wedding, so I got Reed and Sue married. I love satire. I did Fighting American and had a wonderful time with it.

So I felt, Stan Lee and I were good friends, it would be fun to have us thrown out of a wedding [in Fantastic Four Annual #3].”

Asked to name other characters he didn’t get credit for creating, Jack says:

“All of them came from my basement. The Avengers, Daredevil, the X-Men... all of them.

The X-Men, I did the natural thing there. What would you do with mutants who were just plain boys and girls and certainly not dangerous? You school them. You develop their skills. So I gave them a teacher, Professor X. “Well, it’s painful. They’ve kept my pages from me. I have people coming up who want pages signed... a little boy’ll come up with a page of mine that I know is stolen art and I haven’t got the heart not to sign it, so I sign it.

Examples of Kirby’s 1980s storyboard and concept work, for the never-produced Roxie’s Raiders animated series. TM & © Ruby-Spears Productions.

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changed me. I promised myself that I would never tell a lie, never hurt another human being, and I would try to make the world as positive as I could.”

delivery for him... That was the quality that I gave to him. As he was originally drawn, he was just a powerful guy on a flying surfboard.”

1985: An Interview with Jack Kirby by Leonard Pitts Jr. Date determined by Pitts’ letter to Rand Hoppe at the Jack Kirby Museum.

1985: An Interview with Stan Lee by Leonard Pitts Jr. This date is based on the date of the preceding Jack Kirby interview by Pitts, which he mentions to Stan here, so it is conducted after Kirby’s interview. When this interview originally ran in Stan Lee Conversations it was incorrectly dated 1981, because Lee references comics that come out much later than that.

When Pitts next interviews Stan, he mentions Jack’s story about saving Marvel from closing down, and finding Stan crying: “Well, that’s his remembrance. I don’t think there’s ever been a time when I’ve had my head on the desk crying. You’re meeting me now, I don’t think I come across as an emotional wreck. I really don’t know what he’s alluding to at all.”

I’m objecting again here, as Lee isn’t fully addressing the issue.

He’s completely avoiding any discussion of whether Marvel was about to close when Kirby arrived, and only focusing on the “crying” comment.

“Jack has his own perception of these things, and I think I understand the way he feels. It’s really a semantic difference of opinion, because it depends what you mean by ‘creating’ something. For example, the first book we did was Fantastic Four. I came up with the idea of the Fantastic Four. I wrote it down. I still have the outline I wrote—the whole idea for the story. And I called Jack and I said, ‘I’d like you to draw this. Here’s the outline, these are the characters I want,’ and so forth. Jack then took it and drew it. Now, Jack did create the characters in the sense that he drew them.

I didn’t draw them. I wrote them. He created the way they look.

“Jack also contributed quite a lot as the series went on in ideas, in plot. Jack is wonderful at story. He’s very imaginative. He’s the most talented guy in the business as far as I’m concerned, as far as imagination goes. He contributed a great deal. We worked as partners, but the creation of the characters, it seems to me... like with the Hulk: I said to him one day, ‘I want to do a hero who will be a monster. I think that would be great. I want to get a combination of the Frankenstein monster and Jekyll and Hyde.

I’d like you to draw it, Jack, and this is what I’d like it to be.’ And then we would discuss it, and I’m sure Jack contributed a few ideas too. But it seems to [me] that the person who says, ‘I have this idea for a character,’ that’s The Comics Journal #105. the person who created it. I could’ve given it to anybody to draw. Jack was the best. I gave them to Jack.

“I have never tried to deny Jack’s great contribution in all of these, but for him to say he created them all... He’s not the one who came to me and said, ‘Let’s do the Fantastic Four,’ or ‘let’s do the Hulk.’ I came to him and said it. I said, ‘I want to do a god. Let’s do the god of thunder—Thor. Nobody has ever done Norse mythology before. They’ve done Roman gods and Greek gods. I want to play with Norse mythology, and I think the idea of Thor would be very dramatic.’ So, if that doesn’t give me the right to say I created it, I don’t know what does.

“Silver Surfer really was created by Jack Kirby. After we had decided to do Galactus in a story, when Jack brought the artwork in, I saw there was some funny guy on a flying surfboard. I said, ‘Who’s this?’ Jack said, ‘I figure anybody as important

In a September 18 letter to Marvel, Kirby’s attorney raises the possibility that Jack owns rights to his later 1970s Marvel work.

Winter 1986

The Comics Journal #105 is published, a touchstone in bringing to light Kirby’s fight with Marvel Comics over the return of his original artwork: “They would deny me the right to sue them if I signed

their agreement. Or [deny the right] to help anyone else.

“I would have been glad to sign the short release, if I received all of my art... if all of the art was listed.

“We never intended to fight. We’ve never sued anybody.

“Marvel came out with an ad in Variety about the Captain America movie, saying that Stan Lee created the character. If I had signed that agreement, I couldn’t have sued them, and they could have gone through with the movie, and the lie claiming all the while that Stan Lee created Captain America. Marvel gave a statement to Time years ago, saying that Stan Lee created the entire line. Now, Stan Lee has never created anything by himself.

“If I had signed that, they could have put Stan Lee as the creator of Captain America, and I couldn’t have sued. We called our lawyer right away to put a stop to it.”

When asked why he hadn’t sued over ownership of the original art (as opposed to the copyrights), Kirby responds: “Because

there were always promises. The promises kept coming, and the years kept going by.”

ROZ KIRBY: “...we’ve been asking for [the art] back for a long time, long before Steve [Rhode, Kirby’s attorney] got involved. We started seeing people selling Jack’s artwork at conventions, so we decided to fight for the art.”

Did he ask for his originals back in the 1960s? “Yes. Constantly. The originals were

always salable material. The company executives knew this. They had tens of thousands in their warehouse—they weren’t going to let them get taken or stolen by anybody outside of the establishment without some kind of security or remuneration. Therefore, I surmised that I’d probably see very little left of my art. “...it puts a cloud over your life... It’s... a continuous annoyance... that will probably last me until I die.”

Feb. 1986: The Comics Journal #105 interview by Tom Heintjes

Spring 1986

Lee is obviously enjoying his celebrity status: “In the first fifteen years or so that I was the head writer and editor at Timely and Atlas, my wife and I would go to cocktail parties and somebody would say, ‘What do you do?’ I’d say, ‘I’m a writer.’ ‘Really?

What do you write?’ And I’d start getting nervous and say, ‘Uh, magazine stories.’ ‘Really? What magazine?’ And I knew there was no way of avoiding it and end up saying comic books.

Suddenly the person’s express would change... ‘Oh, isn’t that nice...’ and walk away, looking for some celebrity.

“That’s all changed now. I go places and I’m held up as one of the more interesting celebrities. People go over to playwrights and say, ‘Hey, I want you to meet Stan Lee—he made

as Galactus ought to have a herald who flies ahead of him and finds planets for him.’ I loved the idea. I don’t remember who made up

the name ‘the Silver Surfer,’ whether it was Jack or me, but I loved the idea, and the drawings were so beautiful, he looked so great that I figured I would try to have him talk differently than any other character—get a quasi-Shakespearean/biblical

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Long Island... I had a little dungeon-like basement and I worked there... It was a wonderful place to work because I could create the stories and the characters there. When you’re alone and you can think, that’s all an artist/writer wants, and then you can reach out for new things.

“Marvel had monster books, romance books and westerns—and all those weren’t working anymore. They didn’t know what to do with them. Nobody there could write them so that they didn’t remain static.

Marvel was stagnant... I felt that wouldn’t sustain Marvel because it was the same old subject which had been used for quite a few years.

Going back to the super-heroes was the thing to do.

“The Hulk I took from one of the monster stories I’d done. I took the Hulk name and made a super-hero out of him because I felt it was realistic. There’s a Hulk in all of us. It was a natural. They were going to discontinue it after the third issue because they had no faith in it.

The Hulk was saved when a couple of guys came up from Columbia University with a list of 200 names saying that the Hulk was the Mascot of their dormitory. I said, ‘For God’s sake, don’t stop the Hulk now! We’ve got the college crowd!’ We’d never had the college crowd.

“I created the X-Men because of the radiation scare at that time.

What I did was give the beneficial side... I took all that from the times that we lived in. This was only about 15 years after Hiroshima... That’s

up Spider-Man!’ I’m very happy that this has happened. It’s like achieving one of my goals...”

May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Stan Lee, conducted by James Van Hise

notes Los Angeles Times ie On Dec. 4, 1986, The work soon on a mov in beg will y Kirb k low that Jac tion, Dr. Mortalis, with crea new his g urin feat ire Entertainment. His budget film studio Emp to Dr. ws some similarities concept, which sho ghead” character from “Eg the s ude incl , Strange ory comic series. his 1980s Captain Vict

Kirby participates in several interviews this year, including one where he mentions that the previous day, he had an “amicable” conversation with Stan Lee and Jim Shooter. The interviewer, Mark Borax, states, “...the whole world would like to see the two of you shake hands.”

Kirby replies: “We did yes-

terday. But it resolves nothing.

I can’t understand why there’s a struggle over who did what, cause Stan and I know. Nobody else knows. If Stan would only come out of his hiding place and tell the world, everything would go great. It isn’t obscure. He knows it, and I know it. There won’t be a resolution.

People don’t change. They can’t change. Sometimes it’s too late. You just go on being what you are. Human beings go on being human beings. I can predict everything that Stan will do.

I know I can’t change Stan. He says his piece, and I say mine. I could shake hands with Stan till doomsday and it would resolve nothing, the dance goes on.

“The artists were doing the plotting—Stan was just coordinating the books, which was his job. Stan was production coordinator. But the artists were the ones that were handling both story and art. We had to—there was no time not to!”

1986: Comics Interview #41 interview, conducted by Mark Borax

“...Marvel decided to return the pages to the artists, and they sent the releases out to the various artists that did work for them over the years. My release was quite different than the others. It was a release I couldn’t sign, and that created a controversy. It mystified me; I don’t know why I got this kind of a release. It was a four-page release; it was almost like a contract, whereas the average release was something I could sign. I would’ve signed it, and there would have been an ordinary exchange of release and pages. They created a situation in which I was stuck; it became a legal thing, and I’m sorry about the circumstance itself—but it was they who sent the release out, and it was I who can’t sign it. So they kept my pages... There’s eight books involved. There’s 88 pages involved. There’s thousands of books I did, and all they offered was eight.

“They’ll return my art, if I’ll sign that release—and I can’t sign it.

“I’m up against a corporate giant. They’ve got a heckuva lot more weapons than I have. If I have one lawyer, they have ten. It’s a hard battle; I do it slowly, I do it piecemeal. It’s a thing that lasts a long, long time.”

1986: Hour 25 interview on KPFK 90.7 FM

On March 13, feeling they have a sufficient paper trail of past documents signed by Kirby, Marvel’s lawyers send a letter agreeing to have Jack sign the same Artwork Release form other artists are signing to get their art back, as long as Kirby will sign an additional document reaffirming what the 1966 and 1972 contracts had stated.

“I lived in Long Island, in East Williston in central

The Comics Journal was at the forefront of championing Kirby’s cause, and circulated this petition throughout the comics industry.

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how Ben Grimm came about.

“I was a penciler and a storyteller and I insisted on doing my own writing. I always wrote my own story, no matter what it was. Nobody ever wrote a story for me. I created my own characters. I always did that. That was the whole point of comics for me. I created my own concepts and I enjoyed doing that.

“Lee wouldn’t let me put the dialogue in. I wrote the story and made up the characters. I had to tell Stan Lee what the story was going to be... I argued all the time about doing the word balloons, but I wasn’t allowed to do them. Stan Lee was editor, and his cousin was the publisher and I wasn’t going to argue with that.

“Steve Ditko did Spider-Man by himself. He built Spider-Man. He’s the one that refined the character. He’s a thorough professional and he’s an intellect. He’s a little withdrawn but he has a fine mind.

Stan Lee didn’t even have to bother with it. Steve developed SpiderMan—I just did one cover.

“I’m alone in my studio every day. Nobody tells me what to write or what to draw. And that’s the way it was at Marvel! I’d come in once or twice a month.”

to rightfully give Kirby back his original art.

On August 3, Kirby appears on a panel at the San Diego Comic-Con with Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Marv Wolfman, and Gary Groth, to discuss the situation with Marvel Comics and the return of his original artwork. Marvel editorin-chief Jim Shooter is in the audience and speaks briefly from the floor to clarify Marvel’s position.

Fall 1986

Jack and Roz Kirby, at the 1986 San Diego Comic-Con.

The September 17 issue of Daily Variety features an interview with Lee. While only excerpts of this interview actually appeared in print, I have access to the full transcript for this book.

Lee is asked about the original art controversy: “I don’t know too much about it. But from what I understand, it’s a very simIn August, The Comics Journal #110 includes a petition signed ple thing. We give all the original artwork back to all the artists by numerous industry professionals, appealing to Marvel Comics and we’re more than happy to give Kirby his back, too. But apparently Jack has been making some demands. He wants a statement crediting him with the co-creation of certain characters and so forth. They’ve got to find out a legal way to get something for him to sign. They don’t want to give him his artwork back unless he signs something... some sort of release. “...[Kirby and Ditko] were all co-creators in the sense that—it’s like a person who writes lyrics when someone else writes the music, I guess. I would come up with the concept. For instance, I would say I want to do a book called Spider-Man or the Hulk or the Fantastic Four. In the case of Spider-Man, Steve Ditko illustrated it for me and he created the costume and he created the look of the script . In the case of the Hulk and the Fantastic Four and others, Jack Kirby created the characters visually, and it’s important to keep the word ‘visually’ in there. He drew the characters that I described to him. And in the case of Daredevil, Bill Everett drew that.

And in the case of Iron Man, Don Heck created that; the look of that character and so forth. I would say Jack did most of them with me; Jack is a very creative artist. He’s one of the best, most imaginative people I know, and it was wonderful working with him, as it was with Ditko and the others. And after a while these guys were so good at telling stories in pictures that I would just give them the kernel of a plot and they would illustrate the whole thing and put in a million ideas I hadn’t thought of, and I The October 16, 1986 inventory of Kirby art stored in Marvel’s warehouse. Some of Kirby’s Western stories weren’t listed, since they weren’t yet inventoried. would then put in the dialogue and the May 1986: Comics Feature #44 interview with Jack Kirby, conducted by James Van Hise

Summer 1986

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captions and refine and polish what they had drawn, and try to give it the style I felt the strip needed. So it was very much... they were all very much collaborations; collaborative efforts.

“I was spoiled when I was in comics, because if I had an idea for a book, I’d call an artist and I’d call a writer, and say, ‘Let’s do it.’ Letterers and inkers and so forth. And three months later, four months later, the book would be on sale, and that’s it. Here [in Hollywood], you get an idea for something, and if you’re lucky, a few years later it’ll hit the street, if you’re lucky.”

September 17, 1986: Daily Variety interview by Tom Bierbaum

On October 16, 1986, Marvel sends Kirby’s lawyer a copy of their inventory list (as of March 5, 1986), detailing what Kirby art they have in the files to return to him—along with the onepage Artwork Release all other Marvel artists have signed, and a separate Acknowledgment of Copyright Ownership agreement, confirming what was in the 1972 release, and Jack’s 1975 Marvel contract.

In that Acknowledgment of Copyright Ownership form, originally prepared in June 1986, it states, among other things, “I specifically

retract, release, abandon and disclaim any rights to the copyright renewal term for ‘Spider-Man’, ‘The Incredible Hulk’ and ‘The Fantastic Four’ as alleged in my attorney’s letter to Marvel dated April 15, 1985.

“I have reviewed the Writers and Artists Agreement dated March 24, 1975 between Marvel and myself, and the Assignment dated May 30, 1972 between Magazine Management Co., Inc. and myself, and I specifically acknowledge, confirm and reaffirm said agreements.”

Kirby signs this document on October 31, 1986, but it’s unclear if it’s sent back then.

On December 4, the Los Angeles Times runs an article on the dispute. The following isn’t a direct quote by Kirby, but is derived by the reporter from Kirby’s comments to him:

The standard artwork release that

was sent to all Marvel artists.

any rights they may have on the issue of creator credit by doing so. Kirby’s attorney receives a similar letter dated March 11, 1987 from Marvel’s legal team. The letter includes an updated inventory of the artwork from Marvel’s warehouse, which includes lists dated October 23, 1986 and November 26, 1986, plus lists dated March 5, 1986 and August 26, 1986. It states Marvel will begin shipping artwork to Jack as soon as they receive the signed documents.

In a lull from the stress of the dispute, Kirby gets some respect from a prestigious source. In a press statement about the upcoming video release of his movie Aliens, director James Cameron states: “A lot of what we did on this film was, for me, straight out of the subconscious... It’s not intentional in the sense I sat down and looked at all my favorite comics and studied them for this film, but yeah, Kirby’s work was definitely in my subconscious programming. The guy was a visionary. Absolutely. And he could draw machines like nobody’s business.

“He was sort of like A.E. Van Vogt and some of these other science-fiction writers who are able to create worlds that— even though we live in a science-fictionary world today—are still so far beyond what we’re experiencing.”

In 1959, Kirby presented a list of comicbook characters ideas to Marvel Comics that included Spiderman, the Incredible Hulk, the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, characters that helped spark the 1960s boom in comic-book popularity.

Now, after an association of more than 40 years, Kirby and Marvel are battling over the possession of the original artwork used for some of the comics.

James Shooter, Marvel Comics’ group editor in chief said that Kirby must sign an agreement to prohibit the resale of his original art of the Fantastic Four, the Mighty Thor, the X-Men and the Incredible Hulk before the company will return it to him.

But Kirby said he does not want to sign away any rights for the sale of the artwork.

December 4, 1986: Los Angeles Times (Los Angeles, CA) article “Although Retired, Captain America Creator Still Draws on His Talent,” by Sam Enriquez, Times Staff Writer

Winter 1987

Kirby receives an agreement letter from Marvel, dated February 20, confirming Jack has agreed to sign their standard Artwork Release Form, and neither Marvel nor Kirby are waiving

Feb. 22, 1987: Daily Press (Newport News, VA)

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Spring 1987

with the Kirbys so both parties could have full issues of original art, rather than so many single pages. Similarly, any art which was returned to Kirby’s various inkers (Dick Ayers, Chic Stone, and many others) should be added to any list before considering it to have been stolen.

Another compounding issue is that Kirby received additional artwork in waves over the years (he was still occasionally receiving artwork at least as late as 1991, as Marvel found more in their warehouse). The lists contain only the main super-hero issues, which would bring the most profit on the original art market. Not knowing which pages are there, I couldn’t ascertain which split book stories (Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish, Strange Tales) are missing. There are numerous other pages from war, Western, and monster stories that are unaccounted for, and I’m also not including issues where Kirby gets back fewer pages than were in the 1980 inventory; some may’ve gone to inkers, but many are possibly stolen as well.

The Masters of Comic Book Art documentary is released, featuring Kirby speaking on-camera. In discussing his pivotal Fantastic Four run that introduced Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Inhumans, and the Black Panther, Kirby offered: “My inspirations were the fact

that I had to make sales and come up with characters that were no longer stereotypes. In other words, I couldn’t depend on gangsters, I had to get something new.”

Feb. 1987: The Masters of Comic Book Art interview, conducted by Ken Viola.

TURNiNG POiNT! Summer 1987

On June 16, Kirby signs a one-page form like all other Marvel artists (and presumably the Acknowledgment of Copyright Ownership agreement), and on August 4, Kirby’s attorney receives a copy of the fully signed agreement from Marvel’s attorney. Kirby subsequently receives 2100 (instead of only 88) of the 13,000 pages he drew for Marvel in the 1960s. Marvel refuses to pay the $800 insurance for air-freighting the artwork to Kirby.

What goes missing between Irene Vartanoff’s February 1980 inventory of Marvel’s art warehouse, and what Kirby receives in 1987? Back in 1980, many key issues were already missing, including Fantastic Four #48 (the first appearance of the Silver Surfer), numerous other early FF issues, Incredible Hulk #1, Journey into Mystery #83, and others.

Marvel’s office manager in the 1970s reportedly required fans who worked in Marvel’s art warehouse to demonstrate their loyalty by destroying pages of original art as a sort of “initiation.” One account places pages of the Galactus Trilogy being rescued by a fan/worker, sneaking them out before they could be burned. This could explain the missing FF #48 pages. Another employee was allegedly forced to rip pages from Fantastic Four #5 in half. This jibes with the inventory list Marvel provides, showing three torn, partial pages of that issue being returned to Kirby.

On August 28, Jack Kirby celebrates his birthday by appearing on the Earthwatch radio show on station WBAI in New York—and Stan Lee makes a surprise call-in to the show.

Fall 2004: “Warehouse of Doom?” from Jack Kirby Collector #41

The 1987 artwork return list that’s publicly available only shows the number of pages of each issue, not which specific pages (or covers) are returned. Likewise, Vartanoff’s 1980 inventory list doesn’t specify which pages are stored, just how many there are from each issue (and it has no indication which are covers). But a quick comparison shows nothing from these 1980 verified issues is returned to Jack, so at least some were undoubtedly stolen between 1980–1987: • Fantastic Four #18, 25, 26, 29, 49, 50, 68, 77, 89 • Incredible Hulk #3, 4 • Journey into Mystery #86, 87, 100, 119 • Sgt. Fury #1, 4, 5, 6, 7 • Thor #128, 129, 130, 156, 169 • X-Men #1–11 But making things more complicated is the fact that, during Kirby’s legal battle with Marvel, all the various inkers of Jack’s work in the 1960s sign the standard Marvel Artwork Release form, and receive pages which won’t show up on the inventory lists. Marvel’s policy was that the penciler would get roughly 13 pages from a given issue, while the inker would receive roughly 7 pages.

This includes Fantastic Four #64, 66 and 91, which were still in Joe Sinnott’s private collection as of the early 1990s, as complete books. Joe received hundreds of pages, and traded

This Jack Kirby/Paul Reinman X-Men #1 page sold at auction on May 10, 2018 for $89,625.00. It was not returned to Kirby by Marvel, so unless it was returned to inker Paul Reinman (who died in 1988), it can be assumed stolen.

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me truthfully—did you ever read one of the stories after it was finished? I don’t think you did. I don’t think you ever read one of my stories. I think you were always busy drawing the next one.

You never read the book when it was finished.”

“I think that’s the way people are. It was insignificant... So whatever was written in them was—well, you know, it was the action I was interested in.”

“I know, and I really think—and look, Jack, nobody has more respect for you than I do, and you know that. But I don’t think you ever felt that the dialogue was that important. And I think you felt, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter, anybody can put the dialogue in, it’s what I’m drawing that matters.’ And maybe you’re right; I don’t

agree with it, but maybe you’re right.”

In Summer 1987, fans throw Kirby a surprise 70th birthday party at the San Diego Comic-Con.

“No, I’m only trying to say that I think that the human being is very important. If one man is writing and drawing and doing a strip, it should come from an individual. I believe that you should have the opportunity to do the entire thing yourself. Create your own story.”

Jack and Stan tend to talk over each other here, not unlike how John Romita remembers them plotting stories together on their car rides home, each ignoring what the other is saying. So I’ve edited this down, and combined each speaker’s interrupted commentary into one continuous statement, for clarity in what they are trying to get across. This doesn’t change the meaning of what either man is saying.

“You know, when you mention an ego problem, the funny thing is, I’m afraid those problems are only cropping up now. I think when Jack and I did the strips, there was no ego problem; we were just doing the best we could at the time.”

Aug. 28, 1987: Robert Knight’s Earthwatch, Jack Kirby radio interview conducted by Warren Reece and Max Schmid, WBAI New York.

“I can tell you that I was deeply involved with creating Spiderman.

I can’t go any further than that, really, because there’d been so many variations and different things done with Spiderman, but I can tell you at the beginning, I was deeply involved with him. “...in those days, it was a professional-type thing. You turned in your ideas and you got your wages and you took them home. It was a very, very simple affair. It’s nothing that could be dramatized or glorified or glamorized in any way. It was a very, very simple affair. I created the situation and I analyzed them. I did them panel by panel. I did everything but put the words in the balloons. But all of it was mine, except the words in the balloons.”

Fall 1987

On December 4, Kirby is interviewed for the UCLA Daily Bruin college newspaper: “It was in my generation that the publisher came

to learn that sales depended on how you treated the artist... I wrote the stories. I wrote the plots. I did the drawings—I did the entire thing because nobody else could do it. They didn’t know how to do it and they didn’t give a damn. They were taking money they invested in the magazines and putting it in something else. But I made a living off that. So I put out magazines that sold. I made sure they sold. “...the Marvel version is that the Marvel outfit will give credit to nobody except Stanley, see? Stanley’s one of the family, okay? And he’s the kind of a guy who’ll accept it.

“Stan Lee put his name all over the magazines. ‘Stan Lee presents’ and ‘Stan Lee this’ and ‘Stan Lee that.’ And there’s nothing you could do about it because he was the publisher’s cousin and if you wanted to sell, that’s how you sold.”

“...no matter who did what—and I guess that’s something that’ll be argued forever—but I think that the product that was produced was really even more than a sum of its parts. I think there was some slight magic that came into effect when we worked together, and I am very happy that we’ve had that experience. “...I’ll say this: Every word of dialogue in those scripts was mine. Every story.”

Dec. 4, 1987 (published Jan 22, 1988): UCLA Daily Bruin interview, conducted by Ben Schwartz.

The December 8 edition of the Village Voice features interviews with both men. In response to his battle with Marvel ending with the return of 2100 pages out of the 13,000 he has drawn for Marvel, Kirby says: “I’m grateful but traumatized. It’s not that enthusiastic a

moment.

“Comics run in cycles. I knew that with interest fading in monsters and Westerns, it might be the right time for a kid gang of super-heroes, this go-round the Fantastic Four. And I knew that to make sales grow, I’ve got to feed in new characters. For ideas, for inspiration, I went to the classics, the Bible, Norse legends, the Three Musketeers, Persian fables, Greek mythology, the Sumerians, the news. Then I just started bringing them in, things Marvel had never seen before. Back then, radiation was a big topic, so, of course, my characters got radiated. The only time I was given any kind of written synopsis was after I’d give Stan Lee a story and he’d take it from what I told him. I was the one creating the storyline, the pictures, the story itself.

“I can tell you that I wrote a few lines myself above every panel that I—”

“They weren’t printed in the books.”

“I wasn’t allowed to write dialogue, Stanley. I wrote my own dialogue.”

When Empire Entertainment went bankrupt, Kirby’s 1986 deal for a Dr. Mortalis film ended. But it, and another Kirby film concept, Mindmaster, became direct-to-video films Dr. Mordrid and Mandroid from Full Moon Productions, without crediting Kirby.

“Jack isn’t wrong by his own rights, because Jack, answer 156

“Stan Lee is a charming guy to talk to.

He can get along with anybody. But when I began asking for a little more credit, say, a writer credit, he cut the horse up fine and said it was ‘plotting.’ And no matter what I said, he was the publisher’s relative and Goodman was big on family.

“This has to get you angry. Take it or get out was the wall I faced. Where could I go with a mortgage and a family to feed? To advertising that I didn’t understand? To the pulps that were gone?” conLee defends himself in his own interr Glenn Kolleda had By late 1989, sculpto duce pewter pro to him w allo to view: “I really don’t want to say anything vinced Kirby Jacob & Jack’s illustrations sculptures based on Rider [above]. against Jack. I love and respect him very The Angel and Beast much. He’s one of the most talented, hard-working guys I know, but I think he give it to me to put the dialogue in. I could do twenty pages in a thinks he created these characters because he drew them. But, day. That’s fun. It’s like doing a crossword puzzle. There are the I would suggest how I wanted them drawn: ‘Make him a little panels in front of you. Very often you don’t like what the story bigger.’ ‘The head is too wide.’ And, of course, the characters’ is, and you say, ‘I’m going to find a way to make it good.’ In the concepts were mine, too. later days, I did that with Kirby a lot. Most of the plots, he had “I would give Jack an outline or tell him the plot I wanted much more to do with than I did. When he did give me the artand let him break it down to determine what each drawing work, a lot of times they were not the way I would have wanted would be. When I got to do it. So I would change them in the copy and the story them back, I would put ended up not being what I’m sure Kirby expected. It was in the dialogue to inject fun doing them. But I don’t miss the sitting and dreaming whatever personality up the plots.”

I wanted. Kirby was 1988: Will Murray interview with Stan Lee doing what he’d always done, drawing beautiful “When I created the [Hulk], I was thinking of a pictures. While they Frankenstein monster. A good guy who’s misunderstood. were not as sophisThen I thought of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I told artist Jack ticated and polished Kirby, ‘Let’s make a hero out of a monster’.” as some artists, they May 21, 1988: The Town Talk (Alexandria, LA) article, “Stan Lee’s originality key to comic success” had a raw power. But what brought about the renaissance of Stan Lee makes a cameo in the May 7 Trial of the Incredible comics was the style Hulk TV movie. It will be the first of numerous guest spots he’ll change in the writperform in Marvel films for the next thirty years. ing, my writing.”

Spring 1989

Summer 1989

December 8, 1987: Village Voice interview

1988

Roz and Jack

At the San Diego Comic-Con between August 3–6, a 15-yearold fan photographs a chance encounter between Kirby and Lee.

at home, Nove

mber 1989.

© 2019 Scott Anderson

In an interview with Will Murray, Lee is asked why it took him until the 1960s to really blossom as a writer: “Well, the reason, I think, is because I was doing everything the way my publisher wanted me to. I was very much a company man. I wasn’t a rebel. ‘Hey, that’s the way you want ’em. You’re paying my salary. Fine.’ But up to that point it was really because of the people I worked for. The industry never thought much of comics. It was a business, a way to make a buck. I’m afraid I felt the same way as they did. Once or twice I wanted to try new things, and they didn’t want me to. They used to tell me I had to not use words of more than two syllables, and if I tried anything that was a little sophisticated: ‘Stan, don’t do that. This is a children’s medium. Don’t write over the kids’ heads. We won’t make money. We won’t sell the books.’ And I went along with it. “...I was working so damn hard. I made up so many, many plots in my life—probably as much as anybody who’s ever lived—and I got tired of doing it. By the time I became publisher, I said, ‘Thank God I don’t have to dream up any more stories!’ You know what I do miss now? What I love to do, because it comes easy to me, is get somebody else to draw a strip and 157

“[I] managed to find Jack and Roz walking the aisles of the Civic Center. Got an autograph from Jack and was showing him my artwork, when Stan came strolling down the aisle. They warmly greeted each other and embraced, and were chatting it up like long-lost friends... I had a small camera with me and asked the two legends if I could get a shot of them... I remember how Stan really pulled Jack in when he put his arm around him, and you can see the genuine smiles on both of them.”

Scott Anderson:

2019: Message board comment from Scott Anderson at https://www.comicsbeat.com

“I can attest that their interaction with each other was very authentically warm, not at all forced to my eyes, and you can see by their smiles how enthusiastic they were [this page and next] Kirby concepts from the 1960s finally get into print, when Topps Comics develops a “Kirbyverse” in the 1990s. Jack only to have their picture taken. So... provides unused ideas from his files, while former Bullpenners script just goes to show the complexity of and draw the tales. human beings, I guess. There was definitely a real camaraderie in person, that was perhaps easier him possibly some idea of what the next story would be like, and then to forget once Jack was back at home and able to reflect in priI went home. I told him very little, and I went home, and I conceived vate on the many injustices that were done to him.” and put down the entire story on paper.”

June 2019: E-mail from Scott Anderson to John Morrow Kirby says Lee was “the same way” in 1958 and 1959: “Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never seen Stan Lee write Over three different sessions this Summer, Jack participates anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did.” in what will be viewed as the most controversial interview of his Summer 1989 (published Feb. 1990): The Comics Journal #134 career, conducted by Gary Groth for The Comics Journal #134. After interview conducted by Gary Groth re-reading it in chronological context with all I’ve documented up

By Jack’s interpretation of the word “write,” the above is true. to this point, much of what Kirby says makes more sense to me now He never saw Stan plot/pace a complete story, by drawing it like than it did when this was published in 1990: Jack did, or by typing a full script as Joe Sinnott saw in the 1950s.

“I’d come in, and I’d give Stan the work, and I’d go home, and I But Lee’s interpretation of these comments (and most fans’ as well) wrote the story at home. I drew the story at home. I even lettered in doesn’t match up to Kirby’s, and it comes across as if Kirby is saying the words in the balloons in pencil... Sometimes I put them in the marLee never dialogued a page in his life. That’s not what Jack is saying, gins. Sometimes I put ’em in the balloons, but I wrote the entire story. in spite of his bitter tone, but it’s easy to see I balanced the story... why this struck a nerve with Stan. “...it was I who brought the ideas to Stan.

I brought the ideas to DC as well, and that’s how business was done from the beginning...

I’d come up with them.

“If I hadn’t saved Marvel and if I hadn’t come up with those features, he would have nothing to work on. He wouldn’t be working right now. I don’t know what he’d be doing now. He wouldn’t be in any editorial position. “...my wife was present when I created these damn characters. The only reason I would have any bad feelings against Stan is because my own wife had to suffer through that with me... [My] wife is going ask questions. [My] children are going to ask questions.”

[1991] “That was when I called the lawyer, and I said, ‘Should we sue him?’

He said we could, said it’d cost a lot of money, but Marvel could afford it, and it’d cost Jack a lot of money to defend it.

I said, ‘Well, forget it. I don’t want Jack to go broke.’ Because most of the people who read it have written to me, and they said, ‘Look, we know it isn’t true, we’ve worked with you, we know what stories you wrote.’

“He had a lawyer call me months after that, saying, ‘You know, Jack would really like to make up, what do you say?’

I said, ‘It’s fine with me. All Jack has to do is write a letter to The Comics Journal which says that the things he said weren’t true, and I’ll be happy to make up.’ But how can I make up with him now? If I’m friendly with Jack, it’ll

Of the margin notes Kirby put on his pages: “That would be my dialogue... On

The Fantastic Four, I’d tell him what I was going to do, what the story was going to be, and I’d bring it in—that’s all... I didn’t particularly care to talk to Stan, and I just gave

The Comics Journal #134.

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more than it hurt Jack. Because I saw the way that he did the work.

And I would see how much work he would put into it and what he would send to Stan. You have the Fantastic Four, right? Those characters are already there, created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

But then you get all these pages coming to Stan Lee. Now he didn’t know what the story was going to be about until he got them. Did he know there was going to be a Galactus? Did he know there was going to be a Silver Surfer? Did he know there was going to be a Dr. Doom? He didn’t know any of these characters until he saw them on the paper. So how could he say he created them? Do you follow me?”

JACK: “Well, first of all, Stan

had an editorial job there. He never knew what the story was going to be like until he saw the final product. I don’t know whether he wrote the dialogue balloons or not. I never knew what the heck went on in the office. But he knew damn well where the story came from. And where the drawings came from.”

sound like he was telling the truth. Like I’m not angry about it.

So I never heard from the guy again.”

ROZ: “And then there’s such a backlog of so many hundreds of characters that all they had to do was have Jack say, ‘Well, I’m doing a story on Dr. Doom,’ ‘I’m doing a story on Galactus,’ and Stan would say ‘great.’ And, that was it, you know, what was his big problem? He didn’t have anything to think about. All he had to do was put in a lousy blurb and he was finished.

“So I was not surprised when Jack finally said, ‘Let’s get the heck out of here.’ I knew he was unhappy with the situation.”

JACK: “Well, it is a humiliating position to put someone in...”

Dec. 1991: “Graphic Mogul: Stan Lee” by Alastair Mabbott, from The List

Starting in August 1989 and continuing through June 1992, Ray Wyman conducts numerous conversations with Jack and Roz Kirby for The Art of Jack Kirby book. Here is just some of what they have to say.

ROZ KIRBY: “[Jack] always worked at home. Once in a while he would go into the city, but most of the time he would get on the phone with Stan and say, ‘I’m doing this and this’ and Stan would say, ‘Great.’ Then Jack would go in to the city once every two weeks, maybe, to bring finished work to Stan. Then Stan would put in the blurbs.”

JACK KIRBY: “It became increasingly diffi-

August 1989-June 1992: Ray Wyman’s conversations with Jack and Roz Kirby

“I had nothing to do with the blurbs... what I did was write the plot, see? I wrote the plot, I wrote the entire plot in on the side and Stan Lee would put in his own dialogue... I can’t speak for Stan, I don’t know what he was trying to do.

“Stan Lee and I got into a lot of contentious situations, but somehow, they never seemed to faze me.”

cult, really, to deal with the kind of situation that developed there. We were like, well, property. We never got credit for the work we did. It is hard to keep working under conditions like that and that’s why I eventually left Timely. Well, he would always put created by—everything was created by Stan Lee. And finally we started arguing about it, and then they finally put on ‘Produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby,’ but then he wouldn’t continue doing it; he would change it again to ‘written by’ instead of saying ‘produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’ on every one. He would do it for a couple of months and then he would go back to the old way again.

Then he would say ‘a Lee/Kirby creation’.”

1989 Kirby interview, by Will Murray

1990

On April 13, Kirby appears on Mike Hodel’s Hour 25 radio show. When a caller asks him how he and Lee would develop a story, he says:

“I wrote the story. I wrote the complete story. I drew the complete story. And after I came in with the pencils, the story was given to an inker and the inker would ink the story and a letterer would letter it and I would give the story to Stan Lee or whoever had the editor’s chair and I would leave it there. I would tell them the kind of story I would do to follow up and then I went home and I would do that story, and I wouldn’t come into the office until I had that story finished. And nobody else had to work on a story with me.”

My own examination of the credits over the years bears this out—Lee would vacillate on consistently using a “Produced by Lee and Kirby” credit, and switch back and forth to “Writer/Artist,” and I’m unable to find a legitimate reason for it.

ROZ: “He’d smile and tell us everything was just fine, but then he would do these things that were... I think it hurt me

April 13, 1990: Mike Hodel’s Hour 25, Jack Kirby radio interview by J. Michael Strazcynski and Larry DiTillio.

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1991

After years of relative silence, Steve Ditko speaks out about the genesis of Spider-Man, in response to Kirby publicly claiming he had a hand in the character’s creation. In the essay “Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man,” Steve Ditko states that he was originally only to be the inker of Kirby’s initial Spiderman pages, and when Lee told him the concept of a teenager who gains powers through a magic ring, Ditko said it sounded like The Fly at Archie Comics:

Lee gives his account of what happened to the original art in the early days at Marvel Comics: “Back then... we actually tore up and threw away all the pages of artwork... whatever didn’t get destroyed was simply given away to anybody who’d take it.”

1991 Stan Lee interview in the Gerber Photo-Journal Guide to Marvel Comics (A3)

This story isn’t quite accurate, however, based on the number of pages of art that were returned to artists in the 1970s and ’80s.

“Stan said a new Marvel hero would be In Summer of 1991, I fulfill a lifelong goal of introduced in #15 [of what became titled Amazing finally getting to the San Diego Comic-Con, and Fantasy]. He would be called Spiderman. Jack would meeting Kirby in-person. I have no idea at this point do the penciling and I was to ink the character... how influential that brief encounter will be for me.

Kirby had penciled five pages of his Spiderman... The Lee recounts once again how his wife is splash was the only one with a drawing of Spiderman. by me. responsible for his turnabout in comics: “It was in 1991; photo by Kir A typical Kirby hero/action shot. But the cosalways a case of what the publisher wanted. I could never do tume is what is important. I’m uncertain about the what I was interested in. But my wife, Joan, said to me, ‘If abstract chest design. The closest thing to it is the one on Ant-Man. you’re planning to leave anyway, why don’t you just turn out a Kirby’s Spiderman had a web gun, never seen in use. The only conneccouple of books the way you think they should be done, and get tion to the spider theme was the name. it out of your system before you actually quit?’”

“The other four pages showed a teenager living with his aunt and

uncle. The aunt was a kindly old woman, the uncle was a retired police captain, hard, gruff, the General Thunderbolt Ross type (from The Hulk), and he was down on the teenager. Next door or somewhere in the neighborhood there was a whiskered scientist-type involved in some kind of experiment or project. The end of the five pages depicted the kid going toward the scientist’s darkened house.

“This is the Spiderman ‘given’ to me.”

November 4, 1991: Daily Press (Newport News, VA) article “A comics affair,” by Lynn Van Matre, Chicago Tribune

The original art battle is rehashed oversimplistically by Lee: “I think Jack was wrong. He felt we didn’t want to give him back his pages. We were very happy to give him back his pages.

Most of the pages had been lost. It all got stolen or we threw ’em away. We never saved that stuff in the beginning. Then we did have some pages, but Jack was making weird claims, like he created Spider-Man, and that he created this and he created that. So our lawyer said, ‘We’re not gonna give you back your artwork unless you admit that you didn’t create those things, because you didn’t.’ Finally, he signed some sort of a statement saying he wouldn’t make claims on things he didn’t create and we gave him back his artwork. That was the end of it.”

May 1990: Robin Snyder’s History of the Comics, Vol. 1, #5

Stan offers praise for Jack in an August 16 newspaper article about Kirby: “Jack’s artwork is very influential in the world of comics. I’m just glad we got a chance to work together.”

August 16, 1990: The Atlanta Constitution (Atlanta, GA) article, “Jack Kirby’s heroic career in comics,” by Keith L. Thomas, staff writer

Kirby offers insight into his 1960s Marvel work, while declining to discuss the ongoing dispute: “Do you want the true story? I

Dec. 1991: “Graphic Mogul: Stan Lee” by Alastair Mabbott, from The List

1992

can’t... well... let me put it this way: “I would bring my work in to Marvel, and they would accept it.

The story was there, the characters were there.

“The big thing at the time was radiation. What would it do to the human body? Nobody knew anything about it. It was a big mystery.

People were concerned. And I knew that’s where the sales were.”

Kirby gives an interview where he explains what the FF meant to him: “The Fantastic Four were the team, they were the young peo-

ple. I love young people, I love teenagers. You’ll find that the Fantastic Four represent that group in many ways. They’re very vital and very active. The teens certainly are in that category. So the Fantastic Four was my admiration for young people.

“The Thing was really myself. If you’ll notice the way the Thing talks and acts, you’ll find that the Thing is really Jack Kirby. He has my manners, he has my manner of speech, and he thinks the way I do. He’s excitable, and you’ll find that he’s very, very active among people, and he can muscle his way through a crowd. I find that I’m that sort of person.”

September 21, 1990: Ashbury Park Press (Asbury Park, NJ) article and Kirby interview by Mark Voger

And he unequivocally states: “...I came up with the first black super-hero character in comics: The Black Panther.”

1990 Kirby interview with Paul Duncan, for Ark #33

All the while, Stan describes his own involvement in creating characters: “What I would do is I would dream up a name, but then I would write a synopsis of who the character was, what his or her powers were, where they lived, what they did, what the personality was, and then I would call whatever artist was going to work on it, and I would give it to them, and give them a rough idea of a plot, and say, ‘Go!’. You know, turn them loose. I always got something back from the artist that wasn’t quite what I expected. It was usually better than I expected. Then I’d write the copy, and we were off and running.

I loved working that way.”

1992: Prisoners of Gravity interview by Rick Green, aired on TVOntario.

Transcript published in The Jack Kirby Collector #14, February 1997.

Jack and Roz Kirby celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary on May 23.

When asked to discuss his fight with Marvel over return of his original art, Kirby states: “It was,

you know, just a disagreement. I did an awful lot of fighting... It’s a sore point with me. Even if I told it, I’d have to relive it, and I wouldn’t like that.”

November 21, 1992: Austin American Statesman (Austin, TX) article “Cartoon Artist Draws Admiration,” by David Kronke, New York Times News Service

Early 1990s: Stan Lee Owns (Todd McFarlane): https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaJhpqAWjuE

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Kirby vs. Marvel, 1960–1980s

Here’s a chronological recap of the major events that lead up to this point in Kirby’s bitter relationship with Marvel Comics.

1966: Martin Goodman is considering selling Marvel Comics, and must secure its assets to make any sale happen. Carl Burgos takes legal steps to secure the copyright on his 1939 creation, The Human Torch.

March 6, 1970: Kirby quits Marvel Comics and moves to DC Comics. Presumably, with Kirby leaving, Marvel makes no effort to pay his settlement amount, and Kirby eventually has to enlist the services of an attorney to get movement made on it.

May 23, 1966: Joe Simon first claims rights to Captain America. He files a claim in New York state court claiming Timely’s use of Captain America was unfair competition and misappropriation of his state law property.

June 29, 1970: Marvel sends a letter to Kirby’s attorney, confirming a phone conversation where it was agreed that Kirby will sign a release form like the one Joe Simon signed. In return, Marvel will pay Kirby the same $3750 amount Simon received directly. Kirby will actually receive only $2535, since the total will be reduced by the $1000 balance that remains on his 1968 loan, plus interest.

Mid-1966?: Stan Lee brings his synopsis for FF #1 into the office and shows it to Roy Thomas.

July 12, 1966: Goodman convinces Kirby to sign a legal statement to support Marvel’s case, in return for a payment matching whatever Simon eventually gets from his attempt to regain rights.

Aug. 17, 1966: Kirby signs an affidavit related to his July agreement. Meanwhile, Joe Simon, attempting to ride the wave of comic book popularity, releases Fighting American #1 and The Spirit #1 at Harvey Comics, and oversees the first of the Harvey Thriller line of super-hero comics.

October 1966: Joe Simon sues Marvel Comics in the New York State Supreme Court claiming that, because he is the creator of the character, Martin Goodman’s use of Captain America is unfair competition, and a misappropriation of his state property rights. As a hedge against losing the copyrights, Marvel has Kirby design a new look for Captain America, in case they have to radically revamp the character to retain ownership of it.

1967: Simon files a lawsuit in the Southern District of New York. He asks the court to declare he has the sole right to the Captain America copyright renewal term under the Copyright Act of 1909. Perfect Film and Chemical is formed and sets its eyes on buying Marvel Comics, but Joe Simon’s new lawsuit could affect any potential deal.

1968: Distributor Curtis Circulation becomes part of Perfect Film and Chemical, making a Marvel takeover even more likely.

May 22, 1968: Kirby takes a $2000 loan from Martin Goodman to help with his moving expenses. Bill Everett receives a similar “loan” from Goodman, a reportedly off-the-record agreement where Everett will not sue for Sub-Mariner copyrights, so as not to hurt the pending sale of Marvel to Perfect Film.

July 1970: Marvel drafts a document for Kirby to sign, assigning rights to his work to Marvel.

Kirby, comfortable in his new role at DC Comics, is apparently confident enough to refuse to sign the document.

Summer 1971: Kirby draws the Funky Flashman satire of Lee and Goodman.

March 1972: Kirby is told the Fourth World books will be cancelled, and Lee becomes publisher of Marvel. Goodman calls in the balance of Kirby’s loan. This apparently spurs Kirby to finally sign the Marvel agreement, so he can get his promised payment.

April 7, 1972: Marvel creates a check for $1267.50 for the first half of Kirby’s payment, but holds it while waiting for him to sign the agreement.

May 30, 1972: Kirby finally signs the agreement assigning rights in his work to Marvel.

June 13, 1972: The April 7 check for $1267.50 is sent to Kirby’s attorney.

June 20, 1972: The final payment of $1267.50 is made by Marvel to Kirby.

July 1972: Martin Goodman departs Marvel for good.

Aug. 23, 1972: Kirby apparently attempts to leave DC and go back to Marvel to work on X-Men, but can not get out of his DC Comics contract.

Mid-1974: Stan Lee says, “I’d met Jack once or twice and told him I’d like to have him back and he seemed very interested.”

Summer 1974: A disgruntled Martin Goodman starts Atlas Seaboard comics.

July 1968: Perfect Film and Chemical finalizes a deal to buy Marvel from Martin Goodman for roughly $15 million

July 31-August 5, 1974: Kirby broaches the subject of returning to Marvel with Roy Thomas, while at the San Diego Comic Con.

Aug. 31, 1968: Kirby pays back $1000 of his loan.

Sept. 1974: Stan Lee’s book Origins of Marvel Comics is published.

Nov. 5, 1969: Joe Simon signs a release form, assigning rights in his work to Marvel. In return, he directly receives $3750, but secretly, an undisclosed, much larger amount is funneled to Simon’s attorney, to then be distributed to Simon.

This is done so that Marvel will only have to pay Kirby the smaller $3750 portion that was paid directly to Joe Simon, and not the full amount of the settlement.

Feb. 1975: Lee says, “I sort of half-expect that he’ll come back when his contract ends—.”

March 18, 1975: Kirby visits the Marvel offices.

March 24, 1975: Kirby signs a three-year Marvel contract, ending on April 30, 1978.

1981–1983: Kirby’s behind-the-scenes battle for the return of his original artwork begins. Kirby demands the removal of his likeness from the

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cover of Fantastic Four #236. He draws Destroyer Duck #1 for free, to help Steve Gerber fight his Howard the Duck lawsuit against Marvel, and includes the phrase “Grab It All, Own It All, Drain It All” as Marvel’s corporate philosophy. Kirby will make creatorship claims in interviews from 1981 through 1986.

Aug. 1984: Kirby receives a specialized four-page agreement from Marvel that contains 14 conditions on having his artwork returned. All other past Marvel artists have received a simpler onepage form. Kirby’s agreement only guarantees 88 pages of art will be returned, as a “gift,” and requires him to agree that his 1960s stories were all work-for-hire, that Marvel has all rights to them, and that he can’t sell or publicly display the art without Marvel’s permission. Kirby refuses to sign and attempts to negotiate behind-the-scenes with Marvel, with no success.

March 6, 1985: A Variety magazine ad for Cannon Films’ Captain America movie appears in print.

The ad states, “Based on Stan Lee’s Marvel Comic Strip Character.” This spurs Kirby to go public with the dispute.

April 15, 1985: Kirby’s attorney asserts a possible claim for copyright renewal for Spider-Man, Hulk, and the Fantastic Four in a letter to Marvel’s attorney.

Aug. 21, 1985: Marvel’s attorney finds Kirby’s 1972 agreement, assigning rights in his work to Marvel, in the files for the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel. He sends it to Kirby’s attorney on Aug. 29.

Sept. 18, 1985: Kirby’s attorney raises the possibility that Kirby owns rights to his 1970s Marvel work, in a letter sent to Marvel’s attorney.

Feb. 1986: Comics Journal #105 is published.

March 13, 1986: Marvel’s attorney sends Kirby’s attorney copies of documents pertaining to the settlement payment for the 1972 agreement, plus a copy of Kirby’s 1975 Marvel contract. Marvel feels that these are sufficient to give Kirby the same short form other artists receive, but they want an additional document signed, confirming that Kirby has already relinquished all rights in these two previous documents. In response to Kirby’s attorney complaining about the greater 1969 payment made to Simon through his attorney, Marvel’s attorney says it is “totally beside the point.”

August 1986: Comics Journal #110 is published, containing the industry petition.

Oct. 16, 1986: Marvel sends an Inventory list (as of March 5, 1986) to Kirby, along with an Artwork Release (same as other artists receive), and a separate Acknowledgment of Copyright Ownership agreement, confirming what was in the 1972 agreement and Kirby’s 1975 Marvel contract.

June 16, 1987: Kirby signs a one-page form like all other Marvel artists, and the Acknowledgment of Copyright Ownership, and receives 2100 of the 13,000 pages he drew for Marvel in the 1960s.

Marvel refuses to pay the $800 insurance for air-freighting the artwork to Kirby.

1993

Jack during a 1993 appearance at Comics & Comix, a Los Angeles comic book store. Photo by Curtis Wong.

JACK KIRBY:

Kirby appears as himself in the January 23 episode of Bob Newhart’s CBS-TV sitcom Bob, while early this year, Topps Comics’ “Kirbyverse” line debuts, built around unused character designs and story concepts Kirby has in his files. Jack Kirby’s Secret City Saga is written by Roy Thomas and drawn

by Steve Ditko, and other titles in the short-lived project also feature art by past Marvel bullpenners Dick Ayers, John Severin, and Don Heck.

“Because we all are. I believe that’s what life is. We all do our own performance, and then the curtain comes down, and the act is over.”

Feb. 1987: Jack Kirby interviewed for the Masters of Comic Book Art video by Ken Viola

Stan Lee attends Jack’s funeral, but keeps a low profile, and quietly leaves at its conclusion. Kirby’s widow Roz unsuccessfully tries to speak to him before he slips out. Later this year, Dr. Mark Miller initiates an industry petition to persuade Marvel Comics to credit Kirby on his creations. His behind-the-scenes discussions with Marvel Entertainment president Terry Stewart will play a role in Marvel granting a pension to Kirby’s widow in September 1995, which lasts until her passing in 1997.

June 1994

“In developing a story, I use current events and imagine how they would look in thirty years. In the early 1960s, everyone was wondering what radioactivity would do to us. My imagination took over and that’s how I came up with The X-Men! The X-Men are people who have suffered radiation and they all change in a variety of ways.”

On June 12, Frank Miller gives a controversial Keynote Speech at the Diamond Comic Distributors Retailers Seminar. In a large hall with roughly 3000 comic-book professionals, including retailers and representatives of every major publisher, amidst ripping up a copy of the Comics Code and lambasting the industry for its past and current mistreatment of creators, he gave praise to Kirby:

1993: “Why I Do It: My Thoughts On Comics,” essay by Jack Kirby

TURNiNG POiNT! February 1994

“…a very big age of comics is coming to an end now, and, I’ve got to say, I can’t call it the Marvel Age of Comics, because I don’t believe in rewarding thievery. I call it the Jack Kirby Age of Comics.

There is before Kirby, and after Kirby. One age does not resemble the other... Jack Kirby was the biggest and brightest of a generation that brought so much love to the page that our entire industry is built upon it.

“The King is dead. There is no successor to that title. We will never see his like again.”

Frank Miller:

On February 6, Jack Kirby dies, leaving behind an amazing creative legacy.

[1989] “I can say that I’ve done my job extremely well.

Kirby’s 1993 appearance on the Bob sitcom, and My only beef is that a lot of [below] Kirby with Bob Newhart. people have put their fingers in whatever I’ve done and tried to screw it up, and I’ve always resented that. I always resent anybody interfering with anybody else trying to do his job. Everybody has his own job to do. If he’s good, he’ll do well, but if he’s mediocre, he’s not going to do as well as he should. I believe that I’m in a thorough, professional class who’ll give you the best you can get.

You won’t get any better than the stuff that I can do... I’ve never done anything half-heartedly. It’s the reason my comics did well. It’s the reason my comics were drawn well. I can’t do anything bad. I won’t do anything bad, and I resent very deeply bad people who haven’t got the ability, who try to interfere with the kind of work I’m trying to do because nobody’s going to benefit from it. If you’re a thorough professional, and they won’t let you do a professional job, nobody’s going to benefit from it. The people who produce it won’t benefit. The people who buy it won’t benefit from it.”

Summer 1989 (published Feb. 1990): The Comics Journal #134 interview conducted by Gary Groth

You’ve been quoted as calling yourself “a showman and a performer”—why?

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Closing Arguments

Starting in the late 1980s, Marvel launches its ambitious Marvel Masterworks line of hardcover collections, keeping in print high quality reprints of the classic Lee and Kirby stories for current readers. It flourishes in the 1990s, and continues to serve both men’s legacies well today.

1996: “Stan Lee: The Comix Man” documentary, © A&E Television Networks

Interview”). While he never hesitates to mention Jack, most of Lee’s quotes from this era are, to varying degrees, deftly worded to give credit for the art to Kirby (and Ditko), but to emphasize that the ideas all started with him. Some examples: STAN LEE: “...It was the day Jack Kirby and I created the Fantastic Four. Even as I described the characters to Jack, I could almost see the wheels spinning in his brain...”

1995: Fantastic Four #400

“I remember the conversation I had with Jack Kirby when I told him about the Hulk...”

1996: “Stan Lee: The Comix Man” documentary, https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vgapiQek7I

“I came up with [The FF’s] powers in my crowded little workroom in my house on Long Island, 30+ years ago, Charlie. But their design was created by the legendary Jack Kirby in his own home, also on Long Island.”

In September 1994, I start The Jack Kirby Collector magazine, of which this book serves as its 75th issue. My goal is to document Kirby’s own legacy in my own modest way, but I have no idea of the journey it is about to take me on.

1998: “Stan Lee’s Soapbox” column

“I would say, ‘Look, Jack, here’s the story I want you to tell.’ And Jack would bring back the story I had given him, but he would also add a lot of imaginative things of his own...”

June/July 1998: “Spider-Man in the Marketplace,” Jules Feiffer, Civilization

“I told Jack about it and when I saw the way he drew Thor it was just wonderful... the outfit he gave him... the hammer.

I wanted him to have that hammer, and I came up with a plot so he could...”

1995–2007

At a time when most people slow down or retire, Lee’s own journey seems to be just getting started. In 1998, he signs a contract making him Chairman Emeritus of Marvel Comics for life.

Peter Paul and Lee begin a new internet-based super-hero creation, production, and marketing studio, Stan Lee Media, which ends up filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in February 2001.

That same year, Lee, Gill Champion, and Arthur Lieberman form POW! (Purveyors of Wonder) Entertainment to develop film, television, and video game properties. Lee attaches his name to various comics-related print ventures throughout the 21st century, none of which has generated anything lasting as of this writing. He also licenses his name to a comic book convention in Los Angeles. But while he produces no notable creations in this era, he’s tireless at what he’s always been superb at: Marketing Stan Lee. I performed an internet search for “Stan Lee Interview” and got almost 27 million hits (as opposed to about 5 million for “Jack Kirby

July 1998: Stan Lee interview by Bob Brodsky in Comic Book Marketplace #61

“In the beginning, I would give Jack the idea for the character. I would describe the characters and give him an idea on how I wanted them to be. Jack would then draw the story and give me the exact rendition that I was looking for in the character...”

Apr. 2, 1999: “Writing for Himself: Stan Lee Speaks,” by James Cangialosi, Comics Buyer’s Guide #1324

163

usually quiet Steve Ditko to speak up: “In your Comic Book

Marketplace #61, July 1998, page 45, Stan Lee talks about ‘...a very famous scene...’ of the trapped Spider-Man lifting heavy machinery over his head.

“Stan says, ‘I just men-

tioned the idea... I hadn’t thought of devoting that many pages to it...’

“I was publicly credited as In the 1990s Superman: The Animated Series television show, Bruce Timm and Paul Dini modeled detective plotter only starting with issue Dan Turpin on Jack Kirby. He nobly sacrificed himself in the two-part episode “Apokolips Now”, #26. The lifting sequence is in which aired on February 7 and 14, 1998. issue #33.

“The fact is we had no story or idea discussion about some Spider-Man books even before issue #26 up to when I left the book.

“Stan never knew what was in my plotted stories until I took in the penciled story, the cover, my script, and Sol Brodsky took the material from me and took it all into Stan’s office, so I had to leave without seeing or talking to Stan.”

Sept.-Oct. 1998: Comic Book Marketplace #63, Steve Ditko letter

Shortly thereafter, a Time magazine piece refers to Lee as Spider-Man’s creator. Ditko writes a letter to the magazine which appears in the December 7, 1998 issue, noting that because of his visual contribution to the character’s creation, Spider-Man “was a collaboration of writer-editor Stan Lee and artist Steve Ditko as co-creators.”

Nov. 16, 1998: Time Magazine article and Dec. 7th response by Ditko

Ditko’s famous “lifting” scene from Amazing Spider-Man #33, drawn in late 1965.

To ease tensions with Ditko and public pushback, in August 1999, Lee issues a statement, addressed “To Whom It May Concern,” stating

“My all-time favorite Fantastic Four villain—in fact, maybe my all-time favorite villain—is Dr. Doom. ...And, again, a lot of credit goes to Jack Kirby. All I did was describe what I wanted and how I wanted him to act and be, but when Jack drew him, you couldn’t get a better looking villain than Dr. Doom with that little cowl over him and the armor. Jack always used to say,

Lee and Ditko from Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1 [1964].

‘Stan, the reason he concealed his face is because he basically looked like you.’ Jack and I sometimes had a relationship like the Thing

and the Human Torch.”

2007: Questions for Stan Lee—promo for Fantastic Four video game: https: // www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ6P7s1Gg8w and https: //www.youtube.com/ watch?v=VCHvFP8ecTY

Lee and Kirby see Dr. Doom’s face in Fantastic Four #10 [1963].

Readers can decide for themselves, based on the historical record presented here, whether those interpretations are accurate. Rest assured, these full interviews, and countless others, were thoroughly reviewed for this book before I decided what to excerpt, but the sheer volume was downright overwhelming.

Once such interview in 1998 gets the 164

On December 7, 1999, Joe Simon files to terminate the transfer of the copyright on Captain America from his 1969 settlement with Marvel. Simon and Marvel will settle out of court in 2003. Details remain confidential, but later mention is made of Simon receiving royalties for merchandising and licensing.

“I have always considered Steve Ditko to be Spider-Man’s co-creator.” He goes on to praise Ditko’s creation of Spider-Man’s costume as “an actual masterpiece of imagination.”

August 18, 1999: Stan Lee’s public statement about Steve Ditko

Stan shoots himself in the foot soon thereafter when he’s asked to name his favorite creation, and responds: “I don’t know... Dr. Strange...”. This is a direct contradiction to his January 9, 1963 letter to Jerry Bails where he says Dr. Strange “twas Steve’s idea.”

http: //www.philadelphiabar.org/page/TPLSummer03CaptainAmerica

As more interviews take place, Lee tends to get further away from the historical record, and starts presenting new details, heretofore unheard, about the creation of the Marvel characters: “I’ve told this story so often, it might even be true. I can’t remember. But I was sitting and I saw a fly crawling on the wall.

And I said, ‘Wow, suppose a person had the power to stick to a wall like an insect?’ And so I was off and running, and I thought, ‘What’ll I call him?’ I tried Mosquito Man—that didn’t have any glamour. Insect Man—that was even worse. I went down the line, and I got to Spider-Man. It sounded mysterious and dramatic, and lo a legend was born.”

Dec. 7, 1999: Tampa Tribune interview

Ditko eventually responds to Lee’s August 1999 statement, noticing that his giving of credit is undercut by subsequent statements, or wiggle-room by the language he uses to make his admission, such as the word “consider.” Ditko asks, “What

is needed to be considered, pondered, and for how long? The issue is: Either Steve Ditko is the co-creator of Spider-Man or Steve Ditko is not the co-creator of Spider-Man. A is A or A is not A. .... Is it so difficult for Lee to admit, write, ‘Steve Ditko co-created Spider-Man with me’?”

Lee on The Larry King Show on CNN in 2000. ©CNN.

2000: Stan Lee on creating Spider-Man (Full 2000 CNN interview): https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=75HonYg6dts

2000: The 32-Page TSK! TSK! Package

Just like how his July 1977 Quest

“Consider’ means to ponder, look at, magazine article suddenly introduced the closely examine, etc. and does not admit, pulp hero The Spider as an inspiration or claim, or state that Steve Ditko is for Spider-Man, this account of a fly on Spider-Man’s co-creator. Stan’s statement the wall (which is very similar to a piece contradicts some of his earlier claims that of fluff Lee’s friend Bob Kane used about the ‘first sayer’ of the ‘idea’ is the creator. the idea for Batman coming from a bat “In “Newswatch”, The Comics Journal Lee hosts Bob Kane on The Comic Book Greats, a 1991 documentary series. flying through his window), leaves many © Stabur Home Video #111, page 13, Sept. 1986, Stan says, ‘It knowledgeable comics historians scratching seems to me that the person who says, ‘This is the idea I want done,’ is their heads, and some questioning Lee’s sincerity. the person who created it.’ And, ‘…it’s the guy who says, ‘Let there be a Hulk, and, lo, there was a Hulk. The guy who says it, he’s the creator. “...Stan and Bob Kane... were the best of friends.

Joan The guy who drew it is just drawing it after the creator told him to They used to talk about doing a movie together, but Lee: draw it.’ laughed about the fact they’d never be able to do it “The fallacy is seen with the first published Spider-Man cover. It because they’d never be able to decide whose name was widely believed that since Kirby, the penciler, came first—is A— would come first on the credits.” he had the ‘idea’ for [Spider-Man’s] costume (had ‘created’ it) while Circa 2001: Joan Lee interview conducted by Blake Bell for I Have To Live With This Guy! I—B—came later, just copied it and inked it (or could only just copy Relatively minor the ‘already created’ costume). details of characters’ cre“The fallacy was exposed later when it became publicly known ation get contradicted as and shown that I had previously penciled and inked a first [Spiderwell. Several times in the Man] cover that Stan rejected... It was then learned that Kirby actupast, Lee has claimed he ally penciled the second [Spider-Man] cover (from a different compowas never sure who actually sitional angle) which I inked. So the public A was actually the B and the named the Silver Surfer, believed B was the actual A. he or Kirby. In 2001, Lee “Stan wrote, ‘When I first told Steve my idea for a shy, teenaged claims, “...I gave him the high-school science student who’d been bitten by a radioactive spider, name ‘The Silver Surfer’.” thus gaining the ability to stick to walls and shoot webs, Steve took to Oct. 11, 2001: Jack Kirby Collector #33 it like a duck to water.’ interview by Jon B. Cooke “There was a previous, rejected five penciled page [Spider-Man] “It’s a funny thing ‘idea’ by Kirby (or Lee and Kirby) that had an adult [Spider-Man] (with about Daredevil’s cosa different costume) and a web gun (exposed gun belt and holster). tume. It started out being “The error and fallacy is in Stan’s ‘my idea’ about [Spider-Man’s] yellow. I really am no ‘ability to stick to walls and shoot webs.’ authority on what color “Stan’s [Spider-Man] synopsis to me did not mention any (two) costumes should be. I wrist web shooters, or hidden belt, or any specific costume or specific used to leave that, really, spider-like actions. Those are my ideas and creation.”

to the people who did the coloring in our office. A

2002: Steve Ditko’s essay “Tsk! Tsk!: Examining A ‘Creator’/’Creation’ Claim”

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Lee’s 2002 autobiography Excelsior! ©Stan Lee & George Mair

certainly was effusive in his praise for Kirby over the years: [2001] “Jack was one of the best artists in the business; one of the best artists I ever worked with. He was a genius. He was terribly important to Marvel. It’s very unfortunate that some people think he did half the work and I took all the credit. That Full disclosure: In 201 1, I published the book The Stan Lee Universe, which was edited by Roy Thomas just isn’t so. Every time I and Danny Fingeroth. Danny spent several days at the Univ ersit was interviewed, I would y of Wyoming, going thro ugh Stan’s archives, which he donated to the library there. It’s a trea always say how great Jack sure trove of information on all aspe cts of Stan’s long care er, and has been invaluable for was. Very often, the interresearch for this book. viewers just left that part out. I had no control over what was written about us.”

Oct. 11, 2001: Jack Kirby Collector #33 interview by Jon B. Cooke

Based on the number of times Lee is quoted giving Kirby (and Ditko) accolades in this book, and many more instances that aren’t quoted here, I can unequivocally confirm that Stan is telling the truth. He does say how wonderful Kirby is countless times, in the majority of interviews I reviewed for this book. He unquestionably loved Jack’s work.

But giving Kirby a compliment, and giving him equal credit for creating, are two very different things—and this is something that Lee often can’t often bring himself to do, especially in this later era.

Wallace Wood’s sketch of ideas for Daredevil’s costume, circa 1965.

lot of people said, ‘We don’t like the yellow costume.’ So being the man who makes very profound decisions, I said, ‘Okay, how about red?’ I hate to disillusion people, but that is the amount of intensive study, and thought, and research, and focus group meetings we had in determining the color of a costume.”

I’m curious, did you make up all five of the [X-Men] characters when you made up the idea, or did you leave who some of the particular characters were up to Jack?

“Oh, no. I always made up all of them, in all the books. Jack was just the guy to whom I’d say, ‘Hey, I’ve got something for you to draw.’ Of course, after that, his contributions were considerable. But in the beginning, I used to just hope he’d like it and say, ‘Oh, great. I’ll draw it’.”

2003: The Men Without Fear: Creating Daredevil Part 1 - Stan Lee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1RjYfodIy8

Compare this to Stan’s November 1964 comment in the Daredevil #7 letter column, about how Wood got to redesign the costume, since he’s the one who had to draw it.

And am I the only one who thinks this idea is more likely to originate from Kirby than Lee? “I needed a method for Thor to fly to go from Asgard, which is the home of the gods, to the Earth. I didn’t want him to just say, ‘I think I’ll get going,’ and bingo, we see him fly. If you ever thought about it, Superman flies with no visible means of propulsion. But I wanted Thor to have a real method of flying, so I figured he’ll take his hammer and put a little leather thong and wrap it around his wrist. And then he’ll swing the hammer very fast like a propeller, and when it gets going at top speed he’ll let it go. Now, the hammer will go flying off, but because the thong is tied to his wrist, it’ll pull him along with it. So you see, everything I ever wrote was scientifically sound, and nobody could critically fault it.”

Feb. 11, 2003: “Stan Lee Talks to Roy Thomas” in Alter Ego #24

Perhaps the best way to get some closure on this, is to examine this 2007 Stan Lee interview, conducted by Jonathan Ross for his BBC documentary In Search of Steve Ditko: “I thought up the

2007(?): Origins of Thor: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLYJP_duPxk

So, is Lee a credit-hog, who takes any credit that isn’t nailed down, and will stop at nothing to keep others from getting any? He

Stan Lee in Jonathan Ross’ 2007 “In Search of Steve Ditko” BBC documentary. © Jonathan Ross.

166

Fantastic Four, and it did well, and so we did another book called the Hulk, and then we did Spider-Man and the X-Men, and on and on. And of course, on the 7th day, I rested.

“Steve [Ditko] and I worked beautifully together. As far as I was concerned, he was the perfect collaborator.

His artwork was superb. His story sense was brilliant.

His continuity, he drew things, you thought you were watching a motion picture from panel to panel. I mean, he was a joy and a delight to work with. I was heartbroken when Steve finally stopped working with us.

“In the very beginning, I would come up with a rather detailed plot, tell Steve what it was, he would draw the strip any way he wanted—I didn’t give him a complete script .He’d add a lot of things I hadn’t even thought of. Then I would get the pages of artwork and I would put in the dialogue, trying to give everything and everyone the personality that I wanted them to have. As we moved along, I saw that Steve was so good at story, that little by little, I had him come up with most of the plots. I would only say to him something like, ‘Hey, let’s use Sandman as the next villain. And let’s have Sandman try to kidnap Mary Jane,’ or whatever it was. I might not say any more than that, and he would do the story, give it to me, and then I would try to hold everything together with my dialogue and captions. Again, after a while, I wouldn’t even say that much to Steve. He would just go and do whatever story he wanted, bring me the artwork. It was like doing a crossword puzzle. I’d get the artwork—it was all something I hadn’t seen before. I didn’t know what to expect, but it was up to me now to put the words and captions and sound effects or whatever in and make it seem like a cohesive whole.

“He had complained to me a number of times when there were articles written about Spider-Man which called me the creator of Spider-Man. And I had always thought I was, because I’m the guy who said, ‘I have an idea for a strip called Spider-Man,’ and so forth.

“Steve had said, ‘Having an idea is nothing, because until it becomes a physical thing, it’s just an idea.’ He said it took him to draw the strip and to give it life, so to speak, or to make it actually something tangible, otherwise all I had was an idea. So I said to him, ‘Well, I think the person with the idea is the person who creates it.’ And he said, ‘No, because I drew it.’

“Anyway, Steve definitely felt that he was the co-creator of Spider-Man. And that was really, after he said it and I saw it meant a lot to him, that was fine with me. So I said, ‘Fine, I’ll tell everybody you’re the co-creator.’ That didn’t quite satisfy him, so I sent him a letter. I put it in writing. ‘To whom it may concern. This is to state that I consider Steve Ditko to be the co-creator of Spider-Man, along with me.’ Something like that. And I sent it to him, and I said, ‘You can show this to anybody you want to.’

And I found out that Steve still objected to that, because he felt I used the word ‘consider’—‘I consider Steve to be the co-creator’—apparently he felt that wasn’t definite enough. So at that point I gave up. I haven’t spoken to him or heard from him since, I don’t think.”

Stan Lee’s cameo in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. © Marvel Entertainment.

Stan Lee Film & TV Cameos Marvel/Disney’s super-hero films and television shows, as well as those by Sony and Fox, have regularly paid tribute to Lee by giving him brief, humorous cameos: • 2000: Appears as a Hot Dog Vendor in X-Men film.

• 2002: Appears as Man in Fair in Spider-Man film.

• 2003: Appears as Old Man at Crossing in Daredevil film and Security Guard in Hulk film.

X-Men 2 is also released, one of only four Marvel films to date without a Stan Lee cameo; the others are X-Men Origins: Wolverine (2009), X-Men: First Class (2011) and X-Men: Days of Future Past (2014).

• 2004: Appears as Man Dodging Debris in Spider-Man 2.

• 2005: Appears as Willie Lumpkin in Fantastic Four film.

• 2006: Appears as Waterhose Man in X-Men: The Last Stand.

• 2007: Appears as Man in Times Square in Spider-Man 3, and Rejected Wedding Guest in Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer.

• 2008: Appears as the man whom Tony Stark mistakes for Hugh Hefner in Iron Man, and man who drinks the soft drink contaminated with Bruce Banner’s blood in The Incredible Hulk.

• 2011: Appears as a U.S. Army general in Captain America: The First Avenger.

• 2012: Appears in The Avengers as 167

a New Yorker being interviewed.

• 2013: Appears in Thor: The Dark World as a mental ward patient.

• 2014: Appears as a security guard in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and in the Feb. 4 “T.R.A.C.K.S.” episode of TV’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. In Big Hero 6, his voice and likeness are used for the father of character Fred.

• 2015: Appears in Avengers: Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, and the Agent Carter television episode “The Blitzkrieg Button.”

• 2016: Appears as a FedEx man in Captain America: Civil War. • 2017: Appears as an astronaut telling a story to The Watchers in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, as a nosy neighbor in Spider-Man: Homecoming, and he cuts Thor’s hair in Thor: Ragnarok.

• 2018: Appears as a thieving gambler in the Black Panther film, as Peter Parker’s bus driver in Avengers: Infinity War, and a man on the street bemoaning all the drugs he did in the 1960s in Ant-Man and The Wasp. He even voices an animated version of himself in DC’s 2018 film Teen Titans Go! To The Movies.

• 2019: Posthumously appears in Captain Marvel as himself in the 1990s. In Avengers: Endgame he is digitally de-aged as a car driver in 1970 shouting, “Make love, not war, man!” And his final Marvel Cinematic Universe cameo was filmed before his death for SpiderMan: Far From Home.

But do you, yourself, believe that he co-created it?

“I’m willing to say so.”

But that’s not what I’m asking you.

“No, and that’s the best answer I can give you.”

So it’s a “no” then?

“I really think the guy who dreams the thing up created it!

You dream it up, and then you give it to anybody to draw it.”

But if it’d been drawn differently, it might not’ve been successful, or a hit.

“But then I would’ve created something that didn’t succeed. But you made me say that in this documentary that you’re doing, and I’m sorry I said it, because I’m happy to say I consider Steve to be the co-creator. If Steve wants to be called the co-creator, I think he deserves to be called the co-creator, because he had done such a wonderful job.”

2007: Stan Lee interviewed by Jonathan Ross (for In Search of Steve Ditko): https: //www.youtube.com/ watch?v=p4z7xuDhMeg

Kirby has taken a lot of heat for claiming to be involved in the creation of Spider-Man. For the sake of argument, let’s use Stan’s reasoning and attempt to understand Jack’s position.

I think it’s clear from the evidence presented in this book, that Kirby first developed a “Silver Spider”-based idea for a “Spiderman.” Kirby produced a presentation board with notes about the character. And Ditko’s certain that Stan showed him the first five pages of Jack’s original Spiderman story, which feature a different looking hero on the splash page than the one we know today.

So let’s imagine how a similar interview with Kirby, being asked these same questions and adopting Lee’s attitude, might’ve gone: But do you, yourself, believe that [Stan] co-created [Spiderman]?

other Marvel characters what they were.

Comics is a collaborative medium between writer and artist, and to discount either’s participation, at least up until the first published appearance of a character, seems nonsensical to me.

“I’m willing to say so.”

But that’s not what I’m asking you.

“No, and that’s the best answer I can give you.”

So it’s a “no” then?

On March 15, 2007, after Stan Lee Media has been purchased

by Jim Nesfield, the company files a lawsuit against Marvel Entertainment for $5 billion, claiming Lee has given his rights to several Marvel characters to Stan Lee Media in exchange for stock and a salary. On June 9, 2007, Stan Lee Media sues Lee; his newer company, POW! Entertainment; and POW! subsidiary QED Entertainment. The case is dismissed in 2012.

In 2008, Stan Lee is awarded the American National Medal of the Arts for his services to comic books and production.

“I really think the guy who dreams the thing up created it! You dream it up, and then you give it to anybody to develop it.”

But it’s not the version that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko made commercially successful.

“But then I created something that someone else made commercially successful. But you made me say that in this documentary that you’re doing, and I’m sorry I said it, because I’m happy to say I consider Stan to be the co-creator. If Stan wants to be called the co-creator, I think he deserves to be called the co-creator, because he had done such a wonderful job.”

2008–2019

In April 2008, Marvel publishes Fantastic Four: The Lost Adventure, which includes Kirby’s rejected Fantastic Four #102 story, newly inked by Joe Sinnott (with assistance from Ron Frenz) and featuring dialogue by Stan Lee. The cover image is from Kirby’s 1969 Marvelmania poster. I am the one who assembles all the rejected penciled pages at Marvel’s request, and they include that uninked pencil art as well in the book. I also pen an introduction for it.

On August 31, 2009, Disney buys Marvel Comics for $4 billion.

Right after this, in September (in a move planned before Disney’s acquisition of Marvel), the Kirby family exercises its termination rights under the 1976 Copyright Act, in an effort to reclaim rights on characters Kirby created between 1958–1963 at Marvel Comics.

The Act states that, after 56 years, an artist or his heirs can reclaim a copyright that was transferred before 1978, and they have a five-

Here’s a key factor: Kirby didn’t have the same attitude as Lee about it. He repeatedly gave Ditko credit in his comments over the years. It looks to me that Stan views any involvement after an initial idea in someone’s head, as superfluous to the “creation”—and if you take that reasoning to its logical conclusion, Lee would be superfluous in Spider-Man’s creation. Kirby (or C.C. Beck, Jack Oleck, or Sid Jacobson) inarguably had the idea first, and Lee (and Ditko) changed the idea to make it the successful one we know now; but if you don’t value anything beyond the initial spark of an idea, the “creating” was already over by the time Lee (or Ditko) worked on it.

Kirby did value and credit the immense creative input Ditko had on Spider-Man, just as he valued his own creativity that was applied to make the Fantastic Four, Thor, Hulk, X-Men, and all the 168

year window to do so. Joe Simon used the same tactic on Captain America in 1999. Marvel/Disney publicly claims the family has no rights to terminate, but unsuccessful settlement negotiations take place privately through December.

On January 8, 2010, Marvel/Disney sues the Kirbys to invalidate the copyright terminations in New York instead of in California, to benefit from that state’s more favorable work-for-hire laws.

This leads to Stan Lee’s May 13, 2010 deposition in the Kirby vs. Marvel court case.

conversations. But aside from that, yes, we would get together. I would tell Jack the main idea that I wanted, and then we would talk about it, and we’d come up with something.”

Did Kirby ever suggest actual dialogue on their books? “Not orally, but what he would do, when I would give Jack a rough idea for what the story should be, and he went home and he drew it in his own way, laying it out the way he thought it would be best, he would put in the borders, the margins of the pages, he would put little notes letting—so I would understand what he was getting at with each drawing, and he would sometimes put dialogue suggestions also.

“I might give him a very skimpy outline like ‘let Dr. Doom kidnap Sue.’ Now, when he drew the strip, he might introduce a lot of characters that he came up with in the story. He might have decided to have Dr. Doom send some giant robot to get Sue Storm, and he would make up the robot. Or there might be some other people. Sure, Jack would often introduce a lot of new characters in the stories.”

Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al. https: //drive.google.com/file/d/0B_lZovnpi13JNWQ5MDJmOTgtZDMzYy00MzI3LTllYjctNmM0ZWE4NjgyOWEx/view

A major portion of Stan’s sworn testimony is kept out of the public record due to a Protective Order that Marvel’s legal team has put in place, and many of the missing pages are frustratingly right where Stan is getting into details about the creation of the Marvel characters that are associated with he and Kirby. Take that as you will.

In discussing the 1966 New York Herald Tribune article, Lee confirms: “I hate that article.”

Did the New York Herald Tribune article depict a typical plot conference? “Well, pretty much, except this is written by somebody who I don’t know why, but he must have taken a very unfair dislike to Jack. And it is so derogatory. It’s just terrible the way he pictured Jack in this article. I can’t tell you how badly I felt.

“At any rate, this is the way the conferences went. Very often Jack would say more than ‘mm-hmm.’ You know, he might contribute something or he might say, ‘Stan, let’s also do this or do that.’ I mean, we had

About creating the Fantastic Four: “So I wrote up a very brief synopsis about that, and naturally I called Jack, because he was our best artist, and I asked him if he would do it. He seemed to like the idea. Took the synopsis, and he drew the story and put in his own touches, which were brilliant.”

As to the FF #1 synopsis, after Stan confirms he didn’t discuss it with Jack first, he has this to say: “I would very often give a writer a synopsis or an oral synopsis of what I wanted, and then later when the story was penciled, I would look at it and say, well, maybe we should change this or maybe make this character a little more that way.

“Well, I think either Jack or I or both of us, I don’t know, must have thought at some point that [The Invisible Girl would] always be invisible, and she’d have to wear a mask or something so people would see her.

“And whether it was my idea or not, as I thought about it, I thought, that’s a lousy idea. So we decided to change it where she could look like a normal person and make herself invisible at will or make herself normal at will.”

Here’s my problem with this: If Lee wrote this synopsis before ever even mentioning the concept for the Fantastic Four to Jack as he’s claimed, how can he not be sure whose idea it was to originally keep Sue permanently invisible? It’s right there in Stan’s synopsis, so it has to be his idea if he hadn’t talked to Jack about it prior to writing it. Based only on that, they must’ve talked out the idea first.

After a 186-page missing chunk of testimony, the deposition picks up with Stan discussing what appears to be his text for Origins of Marvel Comics, and possibly other books where he’s discussing the creation of the Marvel characters: “So I tried to write these—knowing Jack would read them, I tried to write them to make it look as if he and I were just doing everything together, to make him feel good. And we were doing it together.

“But with something like Galactus, it was me who said, ‘I want to do a demigod. I want to call him Galactus.’

“Jack said it was a great idea, and he drew a wonderful one and he did a great job on it. But in writing the book, I wanted to make it look as if we did it together. So I said we were both thinking about it, 169

and we came up with Galactus.

“I didn’t know it would be a subject of a court case later and that everything had to be precise.

But I’ve written a lot of things, that you do it for the image.

Everything I did was for image. I didn’t lie, but I tried to make the artists look good. I tried to make the inkers look good.

“Whenever I wrote about them, I wrote that they Thomas’ Alter Ego lished issue #150 of Roy In December 2017, I pub were the great— Lee’s 95th birthday... ing brat cele e, azin mag one great example is the Bullpen. We didn’t have a Bullpen. We had one lousy big room with a production person and two letterers in my office next to it.”

friendly with every one of them, or tried to be.”

October 27, 2010: Neal Conan NPR Interview. https: //www.npr.org/ templates/story/story.php?storyId=130862700

On January 10, 2011, I get deposed for the case on a snowy winter’s day in Raleigh, North Carolina. From early morning till evening, I sit across from Marvel and Disney’s lead attorney, being grilled about Lee and Kirby’s careers. Early on, he pulls out a near-full set of my ...and in August 2019, I published issue #160 Jack Kirby Collector of Alter Ego, where Roy celebrated Steve Ditko. magazine, which I guess is supposed to intimidate me. It doesn’t; after so many years being immersed in comics, I’ve got my facts straight—but I am struck by how many errors Marvel’s legal counsel makes about both men’s history.

On July 28, 2011, Disney wins lower court Summary Judgments in their rights lawsuit. On December 14, 2011, Joe Simon dies in New York City at age 98.

In February 2012, things get ugly, as the Kirbys’ attorney files for appeal. He accuses Disney of paying Stan Lee for his testimony on their behalf, and claims that Lee pressured his brother Larry Lieber to testify against his will, under the implication that he might lose his job as artist on the Spider-Man newspaper strip, which is his only source of income.

In 2012, Stan seems to contradict his past claim that Kirby was taken off Spider-Man because his drawings looked too heroic: “Obviously, Spider-Man was my idea. I even gave it to Jack first.

He didn’t want it, so I gave it to Steve. Steve feels that since he drew it and gave it life, so to speak, that he created it as much as I did. Now, in my heart of hearts, I feel the guy who comes up with the concept is the guy who created it. But Steve feels—I hope when he sees this that I’m not quoting him wrong—he feels that the person who physically gives it life is the co-creator, otherwise all I had was an idea, which was nothing solid.

While I don’t really agree with that, I have enough respect for Steve, and for the other artists, that I am very happy and very comfortable to call myself the co-creator of all of these things.”

Late in the testimony, point-blank questions are asked: Did Mr. Kirby bring you sketches of The Fantastic Four before you and he had talked about doing The Fantastic Four?

“No.” And to your knowledge, was the idea for Spider-Man something that Kirby brought to you based on his previous work on something called “The Fly”?

“No.” I don’t think Lee is lying here, but to be fair, these are skillfully asked (and answered) questions. Read them closely: They’re saying Jack didn’t bring sketches before they talked about the FF—but this implies they still talked about the FF, and no mention is made of where the FF #1 synopsis would’ve fit in. So if they talked about the FF first, Jack then did sketches for Goodman to approve, and later Stan wrote the synopsis, nothing about this scenario is at odds with Lee’s answer.

And that’s what seems most likely, and most logical, to have happened, at least to me.

And Lee’s correct: The idea for Spider-Man didn’t come from Kirby’s previous work on The Fly—it originated from the earlier “Silver Spider,” which wasn’t asked about in the public testimony.

Hopefully one day, the rest of Lee’s testimony will be unsealed.

But until then, Stan’s bottom line at this point in time is: “I came up with the original concept of the character, and then I would discuss it with Kirby or Ditko or whoever it was.”

July 9, 2012 air date: Spoilers interview with Kevin Smith. https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9byf6fAac0

On October 24, 2012, the Kirbys’ attorney argues before the Court of Appeals. On August 8, 2013, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals rules that the Kirby Estate had no right to issue notices in 2009 terminating rights to Marvel characters. On October 22, 2013, The Kirby Estate is denied their appeal for a rehearing. This reaffirms the 2011 lower court ruling, and by all appearances, the case is dead in the water. By this time, the legal dispute is playing out in the public arena, and Lee is taking heat for it, rightly or wrongly.

In 2014, Lee conducts an interview for Playboy magazine: “I always tried to show [Kirby and Ditko] in the most favorable light, even in the credits. There was never a time when it just said ‘by Stan Lee.’ It was always ‘by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko’ or ‘by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.’ I made sure their names were always as big as mine.”

I’ve got to object here. Plenty of early stories just say “Stan Lee” or “Stan Lee and J. Kirby”; like, the first two years of Fantastic Four (as in #3 [next page] for example). But continue, Stan.

May 13, 2010: Stan Lee’s deposition, Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al. v. Kirby et al. https: //drive.google.com/ file/d/0B_lZovnpi13JNWQ5MDJmOTgtZDMzYy00MzI3LTllYjctNmM0ZWE4NjgyOWEx/view

And then Lee goes back to glossing over things publicly, all in the name of “image”: “...there were no fights that I got into that I never get out of. I mean, there was a little problem with Jack Kirby at one time, but through the end we were very friendly.

Steve Ditko is—who created Spider-Man with me and Doctor Strange, he’s a very private person. He doesn’t do interviews and so forth. And he feels he doesn’t want—he never wanted to draw Spider-Man or Doctor Strange again after he stopped.

“But on a personal level, we’re both still friendly. I respect the artists that I’ve worked with greatly, and I’ve always been 170

“As far as what they were paid, I had nothing to do with that. They were hired as freelance artists, and they worked as freelance artists. At some point they apparently felt they should be getting more money. Fine, it was up to them to talk to the publisher. It had nothing to do with me. I would have liked to have gotten more money too. I never made an issue of it. I got paid per page for what I wrote, the same rate as the other writers—maybe a dollar a page more.

“I don’t want anyone to think I treated Kirby or Ditko unfairly. I think we had a wonderful relationship. Their talent was incredible. But the things they wanted weren’t in my power to give them.”

2014: Stan Lee Playboy interview by David Hochman

On March 21, 2014, the Kirbys’ attorney files a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court, claiming they do have the right to issue copyright termination notices. A response is due from Marvel/ Disney on April 28. On April 24, Marvel waives its right to respond, feeling there is no likelihood the case will ever be considered by the highest court in the land.

On May 14, to Marvel’s surprise, the Supreme Court agrees to take the case into conference, to consider if they will actually hear it. This conference is planned for September 29, and Marvel/Disney are now required to issue a response.

In June 2014, the Kirby family receives support from the Screen Actors Guild and the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, the Writers Guild of America, and the Directors Guild of America, among many other organizations and individuals. They submit Amicus Briefs to the High Court (“friend of the court” briefs filed by those who aren’t directly part of the case, but have an interest in its outcome and want to advise the Court), in favor of having the Kirbys’ case heard. Of particular weight is one by Bruce Lehman, former director of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and chief advisor to U.S. President Bill Clinton on intellectual property matters. Other briefs are also submitted by comics industry professionals Mark Evanier and yours truly (Marvel had previously succeeded in getting both our depositions thrown out).

Finally, on July 14, Marvel/Disney responds to the Supreme Court, asking the court to deny the Kirbys’ request to hear the case.

All that’s left is to wait and see if the Supreme Court will hear it.

As of Sept. 26, 2014, both Kirby and Lee are recognized as co-creators of the Marvel Universe—as it should be.

notify the Supreme Court they want the case dismissed.

Kirby’s credit line almost immediately starts appearing in comics, on television shows, and in films featuring characters he was involved with—films that are still breaking box office records at the time I’m writing this.

And Lee, true to form, continues basking in the public spotlight he’s earned as co-creator of these characters that are now household names. Who can blame him? If Kirby were still alive, I hope he’d do the same.

TURNiNG POiNT! On September 26, 2014, Marvel Entertainment and the Kirby family jointly release a statement saying they’ve settled their legal dispute. With a financially damaging verdict against Marvel and huge copyright implications for the entertainment industry hanging in the balance, the two sides reach their agreement just before the Supreme Court is to announce whether it will hear the case during its October term. The Kirbys

“I just love everything that Marvel has done. They’re taking the things I created, and they’re making them look better than ever, and I’m getting the credit for it, and they’re doing all the work. It’s the greatest situation!”

2015: Larry King Now Interview: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_29DHdH_ig

Lee and Kirby get kicked out of

“I do remember, maybe they had a scene in there that was based on something I had written.

I got a kick out of that. But I don’t really think of the [film] characters as my characters, because I came up with the basic idea, but I worked with artists, directors, who added so much to the characters in their direction, and the actors who brought so much, it isn’t a one-man field. So many people contribute. I’m just happy that I’ve had a hand in all of this.”

l #3 [1965].

a wedding in Fantastic Four Annua

2017: Super Secrets with Stan Lee interview: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfFmhCfnqqE

171

Kirby and Lee’s write-up in the 2017 Disney Legends program book. © Walt Disney Productions.

associates. But in true comic book fashion, his friends and fans rally around him and work behind the scenes to help get him the care and protection he needs to have a peaceful end.

Since around 2000, longtime friend Roy Thomas has been ghost-writing the Spider-Man newspaper strip for Lee—an open secret within the comics industry, at least, and known to me personally. But even with his former right-hand man handling the heavy lifting, Lee stays actively involved.

On July 16, 2017, Lee and Kirby are both named Disney Legends, a hall of fame award that recognizes individuals who have made an extraordinary and integral contribution to The Walt Disney Company. I am honored to be invited by Kirby’s family to attend the ceremony, see the wonderful video tribute to Jack, watch Kirby’s son Neal accept his father’s award, and attend the private luncheon afterward, where I get to meet such celebrities as Oprah Winfrey, Mark Hamill, Disney CEO Bob Iger, and Whoopi Goldberg.

Stan, understandably since his wife Joan had just passed away the week prior, doesn’t stay for this lunch. But despite the personal turmoil and grief he’s facing, Lee manages to make it on-stage for his award, and in this giant hall in the Anaheim Convention Center, filled with movie stars, studio executives, the press, and adoring fans, he begins his acceptance speech at the ceremony with these words about the Kirby award segment that preceded his:

“He liked what I did, accepted most (not all) of my ideas for stories... and until a few years ago often ‘suggested’ (or insisted upon) alterations in them. For some years he would rewrite a panel or balloon here and there, or [do] even more... while other dailies or Sundays would sail through without a single word change.”

Roy Thomas:

March 19, 2019: Roy Thomas interview, contributed by Alexis Sottile: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/ roy-thomas-on-amazing-spider-man-comic-strip

“I’ve never been known as Stan a man of few words, but I’ve Lee: gotta say, I was so thrilled by that testimonial to Jack Kirby.

So well deserved.”

The final Spidey strip runs on Friday, March 23, 2019, and Roy closes it out by including Stan’s signature phrase “’Nuff Said!” H

Despite all the quotes by him in this book, this may be the best stuf’ Stan Lee ever said about Jack Kirby.

TURNiNG POiNT! On June 29, 2018, Steve Ditko passes away in his New York apartment at the age of 90. The “Man of Mystery” stays out of the public eye, and remains true to his convictions his entire life.

Stan Lee dies on November 12, 2018 of congestive heart failure in Los Angeles, California. Sadly, after the passing of his wife Joan, his final year of life is plagued with frail health, and allegations of elder abuse, theft, fraud, and assault by unscrupulous business

Stan Lee and Roy Thomas on November 10, 2018.

Photo courtesy of and © John Cimino.

Any reproduction of the photo is forbidden without John Cimino’s express written permission.

172

The Verdict?

[right] Lee and Kirby in Fantastic Four #10 (1962). [next page] Kirby’s take on the duo in Fantastic Four Annual #5 (1967). [below] Jack and Stan as members of the FF in What If? #11 (1978).

U

nlike the 2010 Marvel vs. Kirby case, which was a bench trial held in front of a judge, the case of “who created the Marvel Universe” is convened in the court of public opinion, and you are a member of the jury. My role throughout this book has been to serve as a judge would in a jury trial; make sure the facts are fairly presented, and see that the case proceeds in a orderly manner, so the jury (i.e., you) can reach a final verdict. Let me now offer a summation of a few things to consider when weighing the evidence.

pretty consistent in their accounts over the years. So no, I don’t think either man is a liar by any stretch of the imagination.

1) Were Lee or Kirby lying in their testimony?

After 25 years producing The Jack Kirby Collector (and 20 years before that as a fan), I’ve never encountered a statement by Jack that I’d consider a lie. He could get confused at times, or speak in ways that might be misunderstood, but I think he (and his wife Roz, in my dealings with her) spoke the truth. One thing that tripped me up previously was Jack’s 1989 Comics Journal #134 interview, since back in the day, Kirby came across to me as a little nutty-sounding with some of the bitter recollections he brought to light. The most egregious is when he said, “Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never

2) Why didn’t Lee create anything before or after Kirby and Ditko were working with him at Marvel in the 1960s?

A lot has been made of this, and there’s something to it; other than the Destroyer in the 1940s and She-Hulk in the 1970s (both in collaboration with an artist), where are all the Lee creations before 1958 and after 1970? The hundreds from that 1960s heyday were done in conjunction with Kirby, Ditko, or one of the other artists at Marvel. Compare that to Kirby’s overwhelming output before and after Lee, or Ditko’s Charlton, DC Comics, and self-published work after leaving Marvel, and it’s difficult to dismiss their track record in comparison to Lee’s, when exploring any new character’s genesis.

In contrast, Lee calls himself a “hack writer” before he hit on his Marvel style. He was a competent worker bee, needing his wife to finally kick him in the pants to do something truly original. When the opportunity arose to become publisher and move away from the hard work of writing, he jumped at it and never looked back.

Kirby never diminished his own creative capacity in any way, nor avoided the hard work; he viewed himself as a creator from the start, and looked back on his early work with pride. Jack didn’t stop creating until he was physically unable to in the late 1980s. Kirby was undeniably more of a “creator” than Lee, in my mind.

However, that’s the way I interpret “creation”; to me, it’s the end product of something being created—not the first steps, or a spark of an idea. It’s what finally gets created that deserves to have a name attached to it, not any preliminary steps along the way to its birth. I think that’s the way Kirby and Ditko saw things too; like Steve said, until the idea is realized, it isn’t a creation.

Lee, to the end, genuinely felt otherwise, and that’s where the real conflict lies. If I have to boil this dispute down to its bare essentials, there are two quotes that I think sum it up very concisely:

seen Stan Lee write anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did.” This book’s chronological recounting of his comments,

and my better understanding of Kirby’s definition of “writing,” puts my mind at ease on that. Now that I’ve seen his earlier comments making reference to those same points, those 1989 quotes don’t sound so outlandish, although I still think he may have exaggerated in the heat of anger. I encourage all readers to track down a copy and re-read it in light of what they’ve seen here.

As for Stan: He made us all believe that the Marvel Bullpen was this chummy room where writers and artists got together each day to work in harmony creating our favorite comic books. He also painted the rosiest picture possible in his Bulletins blurbs, Soapbox, and letter column responses. Is that lying? My own background in advertising tells me it’s just savvy marketing. More troubling to me is seeing how, as his quotes play out in chronological order, subtle changes creep into them over time. I’m thinking specifically of things like how, early on, he couldn’t remember who named Galactus and the Silver Surfer, but by the 1980s, he was sure both names were his.

Lee’s sealed testimony in the 2010 case could shed more light on this, but without it, we’re left with his 2010 explanation: “..knowing Jack would read them, I tried to write them to make it look as if he and I were just doing everything together, to make him feel good. And we were doing it together. But with something like Galactus, it was me who said, ‘I want to do a demigod. I want to call him Galactus’.”

I may not like this explanation, but I don’t have any evidence to prove it’s wrong. So I have to give Stan a pass, like I gave Jack on his 1989 “Stan never wrote anything” comment.

I will say that, ignoring a few minor discrepancies, I found both men have been

“The dialogue I have always felt is the most important thing. Just as in a radio show, certainly the dialogue is the most important thing. I think in a motion picture, or in a television show, it’s what the person says that matters.”

Feb. 8 (or 18), 1968: WRSU 680AM Radio (campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey) interview with Stan Lee

“The penciler is the one who tells the story, who visualizes it. It’s not a writer’s medium, a letterer’s medium, an inker’s medium... the decisive factor is the artist.”

October-early November 1976: Jack Kirby interviewed at the Lucca Comic Art Festival in Lucca, Italy

It really is as simple as this to me. These two guys viewed their own involvement as key, and the other’s as secondary—something a different person could’ve done just as well. The accounts of Lee or Kirby giving each other plot ideas, and then ignoring the other’s because they’re wrapped up in their own thoughts, play to this also: 173

had little or no control over that (and he did make efforts to intercede for artists when he could).

“Stan would go off on a tangent and Jack would be talking about what he thought should happen. Jack would go home and do what he thought Stan was expecting. And when Stan got the script, I could hear him saying, ‘Jack forgot everything we were talking about!’”

2001: John Romita at the Mighty Marvel Bullpen Reunion, from Alter Ego #16

Both men had their faults. Lee did tend to get a bit power-hungry at times in overruling creative directions set forth by Kirby and Ditko. But it was absolutely his prerogative to do that, both as editor, dialogue writer, and company man who answered directly to the owner. He just shouldn’t have been surprised that it led to disagreements and conflicts with his most creative collaborators.

Kirby should’ve asserted himself more, rather than sitting back and hoping things would right themselves. I hesitate to psychoanalyze Jack, who he was a tough street fighter as a kid, never shrinking from a scuffle. But after experiencing the horrors of World War II, he tended to avoid confrontation, and let Joe Simon handle the business battles for him. When Joe wasn’t there any longer, if Kirby was expecting Stan to watch his back, he’d end up disappointed.

Lee looked out for Number One, and there’s no crime in that. Jack should’ve done the same—but the realities of the time didn’t afford him that opportunity.

It’s also tempting to make the psychological conclusion that Stan was passive-aggressive; that whenever a collaborator asserted themselves, he pushed back. First it was Wally Wood, who hated the Marvel Method, and refused to help Lee plot without credit and extra pay—he was out the door shortly thereafter, after some rather nasty and insulting comments from Stan in the comics. Then came Steve Ditko, who battled with Stan over plots and won a plotting credit—but in return got snarky mentions, issues with no plotting credit well after it was promised, and the “genius of the world” quote in the New York Herald Tribune.

After that 1966 Herald Tribune article, Kirby demanded more accurate credits, and got “A Lee/Kirby Production.” But that slipped numerous times; surely Stan would’ve remembered it when writing the credits. As things grew more tense, and Stan grew more popular in the media, I suspect he didn’t want to be encumbered on his most celebrated work by an artist who wanted equal billing and input. So he chose Buscema as artist for Silver Surfer #1, who’d do exactly what Stan asked of him, without questioning or changing anything—and he didn’t tell Jack about it until he had to.

Co-opting a character Kirby created only served to raise tensions between them, as did “Him,” another Kirby-directed story that was altered by Lee. Finally, Stan killed Jack’s plans for Galactus and the Watcher by changing Thor #169. After that, there was no healing the relationship, either creatively or personally.

But if Goodman had treated Simon and Kirby better in the 1940s, if he had better compensated Kirby in the 1960s, and if Marvel had not held Jack’s art hostage in the 1980s, I don’t think there ever would’ve been the need for a book such as this.

On the flip-side, we also wouldn’t be where we are today. It’s been a long, ugly war leading up to the 2014 settlement, but I think it was a battle worth fighting. Both men are considered co-creators, which is justice finally being served.

As far as I’m concerned, this court is adjourned. H

Steve Ditko wasn’t working in conjunction with Lee in quite the same way as Kirby, but their conflict does center around an artist’s sensibilities vs. a writer’s, and credit: “[Ditko] thought he was writing Spider-Man, but Stan was getting the credit... he felt it was criminal for someone to take credit for something he didn’t do. That’s what led to the breakup with Marvel and Steve Ditko.”

2000: Dick Giordano interviewed in Comic Book Artist #9 by Jon B. Cooke

“Why should I continue to do all these monthly issues, original story ideas, material, for a man who is too scared, too angry over something, to even see, talk to me?”

Sept. 2015: The Four-Page Series #9, Essay #45: “Why I Quit S-M, Marvel” by Steve Ditko, published by Robin Snyder

Lee didn’t create the Marvel super-heroes single-handedly, just because his wife told him in 1961 to “make the kind of stories you’d want to read.” That’s a new way of depicting characterization, not an impetus to create characters. Without Kirby and Ditko, Lee might’ve instead used his new “hang-up” characterization on existing characters in Patsy Walker and Linda Carter, Student Nurse, instead of new ones in Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. But that approach wouldn’t have resulted in the creation of all those characters without Jack and Steve’s invaluable input.

3) Is Stan Lee guilty of taking too much credit?

Undoubtedly, but only through my interpretation of “creation.” Lee did it, because he genuinely believes he deserves the credit he is claiming, as seen through his own perception of his input being more important than Kirby’s or Ditko’s. Jack is also guilty of taking too much credit, even if it’s only in reaction to Lee’s grandstanding. You can argue what percentage of credit each man deserves, but they both deserve some of it, and neither deserves all of it. At the very least, without Lee’s input and sometimes reining in Kirby’s most outlandish ideas, the Marvel books wouldn’t have sold, Jack would have been looking for work elsewhere, and we’d have never gotten far enough along to see a “Galactus Trilogy” or Black Panther debut to argue about.

So if I have to render a verdict myself, what would it be?

To me, the real guilty parties here are Martin Goodman and the “Marvel Method.” Without them, no injustice would’ve existed—and Goodman is the reason the “Marvel Method” started in the first place. Even as the books began selling well in the early 1960s, Goodman didn’t hire anyone to help Lee with the workload, so having artists involved in plotting became a necessity, and muddied the creative waters.

Jack had no problem with any of the other writers he worked with, when a story wasn’t done “Marvel Method.” In those instances, either he came up with an idea and a writer followed through on it with their dialogue, or the writer came up with an idea and Jack carried it out in his art. It was a clear designation of who did what.

You don’t hear of Kirby having any creatorship disputes with Joe Simon, Jack Oleck, Larry Lieber, Denny O’Neil, or Steve Gerber.

Once the “Marvel Method” came into play, Kirby was always at someone else’s mercy in seeing his visions realized in the way he thought they should be done. If there were no “Marvel Method,” the only dispute would’ve been between Goodman and Kirby (and Goodman and Ditko) over properly paying for his work, since Lee 174

Other Jack Kirby Publications THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR magazine (edited by JOHN MORROW) celebrates the life and career of the “King” of comics through INTERVIEWS WITH KIRBY and his contemporaries, FEATURE ARTICLES, RARE AND UNSEEN KIRBY ART, plus regular columns by MARK EVANIER and others, and presentation of KIRBY’S UNINKED PENCIL ART from the 1960s-80s (from photocopies preserved in the KIRBY ARCHIVES).

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OR -COL FULLDCOVER R A H S SERIEnting me f docu ecade o d y! h eac s histor comic

SWAMPMEN dredges up Swamp Thing, Man-Thing, Heap, and other creepy man-critters of the 1970s bayou, through the memories of the artists and writers who created them!

Features BERNIE WRIGHTSON, ALAN MOORE, MIKE PLOOG, FRANK BRUNNER, STEVE GERBER, STEVE BISSETTE, RICK VEITCH, and others, with a new FRANK CHO cover!

LOU SCHEIMER CREATING THE FILMATION GENERATION

Biography of the co-founder of Filmation Studios, which for over 25 years brought the Archies, Shazam, Isis, He-Man, and others to TV and film!

(288-page paperback with COLOR) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $14.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-044-1

AND THESE MAGAZINES ABOUT COMICS & POP CULTURE:

(192-page trade paperback with COLOR) $21.95 (Digital Edition) $9.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-057-1

COMIC BOOK IMPLOSION

In 1978, DC Comics implemented its “DC Explosion” with many creative new titles, but just weeks after its launch, they pulled the plug, leaving stacks of completed comic book stories unpublished. This book marks the 40th Anniversary of “The DC Implosion”, one of the most notorious events in comics, with an exhaustive oral history from the creators involved (JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, and others), plus detailed analysis of how it changed the landscape of comics forever!

ER EISN RD AWAINEE! NOM

(136-page trade paperback with COLOR) $21.95 (Digital Edition) $10.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-085-4

FOCUSING ON GOLDEN & SILVER AGE COMICS

COMICS OF THE 1970s, ’80s and TODAY!

THE ULTIMATE RESOURCE FOR LEGO ENTHUSIASTS

THE PROFESSIONAL “HOW-TO” MAGAZINE ON COMICS, CARTOONING & ANIMATION

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C o l l e c t o r

THE NEW VOICE OF THE COMICS MEDIUM

CELEBRATING THE LIFE & CAREER OF THE “KING” OF COMICS

THE CRAZY COOL CULTURE WE GREW UP WITH

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The Future of Pop History.

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Jack Kirby Collector #75 presents a special issue:

&

Jack Kirby spent his 50-year artistic career toiling away in his home studio, creating personal visions on paper for every major comic book publisher— sometimes working from a script, other times from a story conference or one-line rough idea, but most often solely from his own imagination and initiative.

This solitary family man, who preferred expressing himself on the comics page to making personal appearances, passed away in 1994, before seeing the current wave of Marvel films take the world by storm. But he knew it would happen one day, and wanted more than anything to be credited for his contributions to the Marvel mythos.

Stan Lee’s comics career started just after Kirby’s, but he was always a company man, staying with Marvel on-staff for decades. With his snappy “’Nuff Said” banter and boisterous personality, he became the public face of Marvel, lecturing on college campuses in the 1960s and ’70s, making the rounds in Hollywood in the 1980s and ’90s, and now routinely appearing in films based on—and receiving recognition for— characters created by him, Kirby, and others, long after he was active at Marvel.

This first-of-its-kind examination of the creation of the Marvel Universe looks back at the words of its co-creators, in chronological order, to search for answers into how a modern mythology came to be, and how recollections of it stayed the same— and changed—over time. Excerpts from a plethora of comics, fanzines, magazines, and radio and television interviews, help paint a picture of the two men’s professional and personal relationship—which would slowly deteriorate as Marvel gained popularity throughout the 1960s—and highlight why it succeeded, and eventually failed, in such spectacular fashion.

Also represented is Steve Ditko, widely acknowledged as a prime shaper of Marvel’s best-selling character Spider-Man. He was notoriously reclusive, but over the years made a few thinly veiled comments about his time at Marvel and his work with Lee, and those are examined here—as well as comments by other top talents who worked with both Kirby and Lee, including Joe Simon, Wallace Wood, Roy Thomas, Don Heck, John Romita, and other Marvel Bullpen stalwarts.

Rounding out this book is an examination of both men’s careers after they parted ways as collaborators, including Kirby’s later difficulties at Marvel Comics in the 1970s, his last hurrah with Lee on the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel, and his exhausting battle to get back his original art—and creator credit—from Marvel.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60549-094-6 Stuf’ Said lets both men have their say, ISBN-10: 1-60549-094-6 and compares their own recollections to each 52695 others’, giving readers the most accurate answer yet to the question, “Who created the Marvel Comics Universe?”

© 2019 Scott And

erson

Stuf’ Said!

The genesis of the Marvel Comics Universe is complex, to say the least. Scholars and historians have, for decades, tried to determine exactly how much input both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee had into the creation of those characters that are now household names.

This groundbreaking book finally gives the answer.

TwoMorrows Publishing Raleigh, North Carolina ISBN-13: 978-1-60549-094-6 $26.95 in the U.S.

Joe Simon!

Wally Wood!

Roy Thomas!

Printed In China

Steve Ditko!

9 781605 490946

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