Jack Kirby Collector #23 by TwoMorrows Publishing

$5.95

In The US

A 68-PAGE ISSUE WHERE ANYTHING GO ES!

ISSUE #23, FEB. 1999

A RARELY-SEEN, FEATURE-LENGTH

Kirby Interview UNINKED PENCILS TO

Fantastic Four #49 Silver Surfer FEATURING THE

COMPARING KIRBY’S MARGIN NO TES TO

INTERVIEW WITH

Denny O’Neil REMINISCENCE BY GRANDDAUGHTER

Tracy Kirby UNPUBLISHED STORY FROM

Soul Love A Kirby Contest Fan Art AND

Unpublished Art INCLUDING PENCIL PAGES BEFO RE THEY WERE INKED, AND MUCH MO RE!! NO MINATED FO R TWO 1998 EISNER AWARDS INCLUDING “BEST COMICS-RELATED PUBLICATION”

1998 HARVEY AWARDS NO MINEE “BEST BIOGRAPHICAL, HISTORICAL OR JOURNALISTIC PRESENTATION”

Demon TM DC Comics, Inc. Artwork © Jack Kirby & Alex Horley.

Stan Lee’s Words

KIRBY

COLLECTOR

BULLETINS

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KIRBY

COLLECTOR

BULLETINS

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KIRBY

COLLECTOR

BULLETINS

COLORFUL KIBITZING TO KEEP KIRBYHEADS COLLECTIVELY CONTENT! ITEM! Okay readers, you win! We’re reprinting the 240-page COLLECTED JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR, VOLUME 1 (our first TRADE PAPERBACK collection, reprinting TJKC #1-9 plus over 30 NEW pieces of Jack’s art)! Many of our newer readers have complained they couldn’t find a copy, so we’re putting it back into print. It’s available in April for $21.95 postpaid ($24.95 Canada, $34.95 elsewhere), so order now to make sure you get a copy. And don’t forget the 160-page COLLECTED TJKC, VOLUME 2 (our second collection reprinting TJKC #1012), still available for $14.95 postpaid ($16.95 Canada, $24.95 elsewhere). It features a new guided tour of the Kirby’s home (including photos), plus 30 more pieces of NEW Kirby art! ITEM! The updated JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST is now shipping! It’s the most thorough listing of Kirby’s work ever published, and proceeds go to the Kirby Estate. This fullyupdated, definitive edition took over two years to complete, and lists in exacting detail EVERY PUBLISHED COMIC (we think!) featuring Jack’s work, including story titles, page counts, and inkers. It even cross-references reprints, to help collectors locate less-expensive versions of key Kirby issues, and includes an extensive bibliography listing BOOKS, PERIODICALS, PORTFOLIOS, FANzINES, POSTERS, and other obscure pieces with Kirby’s art, plus a detailed list of Jack’s UNPUBLISHED WORK as well. The updated version is 100 pages, and costs $5 postpaid ($5.50 Canada, $7.50 outside North America). It’s a must for the serious collector of Kirby’s work! ITEM! Rascally ROY THOMAS’ classic comics ’zine ALTER EGO is spinning off into its own solo magazine! A/E has been such a hit as the back-up feature in COMIC BOOK ARTIST, we’re making it the third regular TWOMORROWS magazine! Fans and historians worldwide know no one brings comics history to life like Roy, so this June, look for ALTER EGO #1 at your local comics shop, or see next issue for subscription rates. (And don’t worry; A/E will remain in COMIC BOOK ARTIST through issue #5, also out in June.) ITEM! Speaking of COMIC BOOK ARTIST, issue #4 ships next month, and spotlights WARREN PUBLISHING: EMPIRE OF HORROR! In addition to a new interview with JIM WARREN, there’s rare and unpublished art by and interviews with such greats as BERNIE WRIGHTSON, RICHARD CORBEN, FRANK FRAzETTA, JACK DAVIS, AL WILLIAMSON, HARVEY KURTzMAN, and others who creeped us out with their stellar work for Warren! CBA #13 are still available for $5.95 each, and you can subscribe for four issues for only $20 ($27 Canada, $37 elsewhere)!

If you want to get involved with CBA, submit copies of art from your collection and articles about your favorite comics artists to JON B. COOKE, PO Box 204, W. Kingston, RI 02892-0204. ITEM! Rollickin’ RICK VEITCH has started a “virtual comicon” on the Internet, and it’s a rousing success with fans and pros alike! In addition, Rick had added a daily comics news section to keep fans updated on the latest goings-on in the field. Check it out by pointing your web browser to www.comicon.com/splash

JOHN’S JUKEBOX Things in life seem to have a way of coming back around to surprise you. It’s been four years since we’ve done a “miscellaneous” issue of TJKC, and after a long string of “theme” issues, here we are again. Longtime readers who’ve grown accustomed to more structured themes may find this looser, more free-wheeling “Anything Goes” issue a bit too haphazard, but my goal was to find a place for some of the wonderful submissions that really didn’t seem to fit any of our themes. To me, an issue of TJKC is a success if you come away from it learning something new about Jack or some aspect of his career, and discover at least one piece of Kirby art you’d never seen before. Only you can decide if it worked for you, but putting this one together really brought back a lot of the fun I had working on the early issues of TJKC. But for those of you who just have to have a theme to latch on to, consider this our “Generations” issue. Let me use a variation on the game “Six Degrees of Separation” to explain why: 1) NBC-TV news anchor Tom Brokaw has a wonderful book out called “The Greatest Generation”, analyzing what made Jack’s generation so remarkable. 2) In this issue, Jack talks about his son Neal. 3) Neal’s daughter Tracy, who has an article in this issue, is working in Hollywood. 4) Hollywood produced the blaxploitation films that inspired the unused SOUL LOVE story in this issue. 5) SOUL LOVE is from 1970, when the “Generation Gap” was a problem between fathers and sons. 6) Bruce Graham discusses this issue how HIS father had dealings with Kirby at NBC-TV—which is where Tom Brokaw is the news anchor. See how things have a way of coming back around? Long Live The King!

ITEM! We’re planning our most ambitious convention schedule ever this year! Tentatively look for the TwoMorrows booth at MEGACON (March 5-7 in Orlando, FL), WONDERCON (April 16-18 in San Francisco, CA), the NEW YORK COMIC SPECTACULAR (May 7-9 at Madison Square Garden), WIzARD WORLD (July 16-18 in Chicago, IL), COMIC-CON INTERNATIONAL (August 12-15 in San Diego, CA), and (if we’re still breathing by then) the SMALL PRESS EXPO (September 17-19 in Bethesda, MD)! You never know what industry greats we’ll coerce into doing a signing at our booth, so be sure to STOP BY AND SAY HOWDY! ITEM! The Denny O’Neil interview this issue is run in conjunction with the O’NEIL OBSERVER, a brand new publication dedicated to the work of Demure DENNY and the craft of comic book writing! O’NO #1 is now shipping, and features interviews with Steve Englehart, Mark Evanier, Elliot S! Maggin, and Steve Skeates, original artwork (including Kirby KUNG-FU FIGHTER pages not seen here in TJKC), and more! For a FREE copy, be one of the first 250 people to send four 33¢ stamps to Bodacious BOB BRODSKY, 8455 Fountain Avenue #611, West Hollywood, CA 90069. SUPPORT THE FAN PRESS!

TWOMORROWS CHECKLIST For full descriptions of each issue, see page 67 SORRY, TJKC #1-6, 8-12, 14, and 15 ARE SOLD OUT!! THE COLLECTED TJKC, VOLUME ONE: (Back In Print in April!) 240-page trade paperback reprinting TJKC #1-9, plus new art! $21.95 ($24.95 Canada, $34.95 elsewhere) THE COLLECTED TJKC, VOLUME TWO: 160-page trade paperback, reprinting TJKC #10-12, plus new Kirby art! $14.95 ($16.95 Canada, $24.95 elsewhere) THE JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST: (NEW!) 100 pages! $5.00 ($5.50 Canada, $7.50 elsewhere) Now shipping! TJKC #7: We found extras of our 36-page KID GANG theme issue! $4.95 ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere)

John Morrow, Editor

TJKC #13: 52-page SUPERNATURAL theme issue! $4.95 ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere)

TwoMorrows 1812 Park Dr. • Raleigh, NC 27605 • (919) 833-8092 FAX (919) 833-8023 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com

TJKC #16: 52-page TOUGH GUYS theme issue! $4.95 ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere)

ITEM! If you want to find a comics shop in your neck of the woods (or if you’re travelling and want to know where the local shops are), pick up your phone and call up the COMIC SHOP LOCATOR SERVICE toll-free at 888-COMIC BOOK (that’s 888-2664226). This is a totally free service sponsored by DIAMOND COMIC DISTRIBUTORS, in an effort to get more people exposed to the wonderful world of comics! ITEM! TWOMORROWS PUBLISHING has a brand new Web Site (maintained by RANDY HOPPE) located at www.twomorrows.com which features sample art and articles from each issue of THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR and COMIC BOOK ARTIST (and coming soon, the new, solo ALTER EGO)! There’s also ordering info for back issues and subscriptions, so check it out! And if you love getting tons of e-mail from fellow Kirby fans, join the KIRBY MAILING LIST by sending an e-mail request to Randy Hoppe at kirby-l@fantasty.com

TJKC #17: 68-page DC theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #18: 68-page MARVEL theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #19: 56-page ART theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #20: 68-page WOMEN theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #21: 68-page issue on Jack’s WACKIEST WORK! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #22: 68-page issue on Jack’s VILLAINS! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) COMIC BOOK ARTIST #1: (100-pages) DC Comics: 1967-74! ADAMS, INFANTINO, KIRBY, KUBERT, SEKOWSKY, CARDY, new ADAMS cover, and more! (Plus ALTER EGO!) $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) COMIC BOOK ARTIST #2: (100-pages) Marvel Comics: 1970-77! STAN LEE, KANE, STERANKO, WINDSORSMITH, STARLIN, PLOOG, new KANE cover, more! (Plus ALTER EGO!) $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) COMIC BOOK ARTIST #3: (100-pages) NEAL ADAMS: THE MARVEL YEARS! New ADAMS INTERVIEW, thumbnails, unused X-Men Graphic Novel pages, and more! (Plus ALTER EGO!) $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

VISIT THE NEW TWOMORROWS WEB SITE: www.twomorrows.com 2

Issue #23 Contents: Keeping The Light On ........................4 (Tracy Kirby remembers her grandpa and an old school project) The “What If?” Kirby Never Did ........6 (make way for Darkseid, True Believer!) Questions & Answers Odditorium.....7 (mysteries of the new Kirby Checklist) Kirby Contest!.....................................9 (Uncle Giveaway wants you to enter!) A Nice Story .....................................1 2 (behind the scenes with Captain Nice) Fan Art..............................................14 (our readers share their talents) Car & Driver.....................................1 8 (why the Whiz Wagon is up on blocks) Jack Kirby Interview .........................19 (a feature-length chat from 1987, complete with plenty of war stories) Centerfold: FF #49 Pencils!...............3 4 (Jack’s early Silver Surfer in pencil!) A Failure To Communicate...............3 6 (Part Three of our series comparing Jack’s margin notes to Stan’s dialogue, featuring the Silver Surfer) The Kirby Kronicles .........................4 2 (a fan’s encounter with the King) Two Letters To Jack ..........................4 3 A Kirby Memory ..............................4 3 (a couple of fans in search of Jack’s autograph) Talking With Jack Kirby ...................4 3 (the strangest, shortest interview ever) O’Neil On Kirby ...............................4 4 (Denny O’Neil on Justice Inc. and Richard Dragon, Kung-Fu Fighter) Heart & Soul.....................................4 8 (True Divorce Cases and Soul Love examined in detail) “The Teacher”...................................5 4 (a previously unpublished Kirby story) Classifieds.........................................6 4 Collector Comments.........................6 5

ISSUE #23, FEB. 1999

THE ONLY ’ ZINE AUTHORIZED BY THE KIRBY ESTATE

Jack’s pencils to the Black Bolt pin-up in FF Annual #5.

Front cover painting: Alex Horley Back cover inks, collage, and color: Jack Kirby Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from published comics are reproduced here courtesy of the Kirby Estate, which has our thanks for their continued support. COPYRIGHTS: Atlas, Big Barda, Big Words, Brute, Captain Marvel, Chagra, Demon, Flippa Dippa, Gabby, Glob, Guardian, Henry Jones, In The Days Of The Mob, Jed, Jimmy Olsen, Lightray, Losers, Metron, Mother Box, Mr. Miracle, Mr. Scarlet, Newsboy Legion, Orion, Richard Dragon, Sandman, Scrapper, Soul Love, Spirit World, Superman, Tommy, True Divorce Cases, Whiz Wagon TM & © DC Comics, Inc. • Alicia Masters, Amphibian, Angel, Atlas Monsters, Beast, Black Bolt, Captain America, Cyclops, Daredevil, Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange, DumDum Dugan, Enforcers, Fantastic Four, Franklin, Gorgilla, Hawkeye, Hulk, Human Torch, Iceman, Ikaris, Impossible Man, Indestructible, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, Marvel Girl, Mole Man, Molecule Man, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Odin, Pepper, Professor X, Punisher, Puppet Master, Quicksilver, Replicus, Scarlet Witch, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, Sub-Mariner, Thing, Thor, Watcher, X-Men TM & © Marvel Entertainment, Inc. • Alien, Humanoid, Sky Masters, Spaceship © Jack Kirby • Destroyer Duck and all associated characters © Jack Kirby and Steve Gerber • Bullseye, Don Daring, Stuntman, Uncle Giveaway © Joe Simon & Jack Kirby • Captain Nice and all associated characters TM & © NBC-TV • Black Hole and all associated characters TM & © Walt Disney Productions • “The Unexplained Phenomenon of the UFO” © Tracy Kirby

This issue’s front cover is a painting by Alex Horley of a Demon pencil drawing we ran back in TJKC #17. Our back cover this issue is the original Metron concept drawing, in ink, watercolor, and collage by Jack himself! The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 6, No. 23, Feb. 1999. Published bi-monthly by & © TwoMorrows Publishing, 1812 Park Drive, Raleigh, NC 27605, USA. 919-833-8092. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor. Jon B. Cooke, Assoc. Editor. Single issues: $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere). Six-issue subscriptions: $24.00 US, $32.00 Canada and Mexico, $44.00 outside North America. First printing. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. PRINTED IN CANADA.

Jack Davis, John Prentice, Andy Warhol (in his early days), Frank Frazetta, and many others. Around 1966, a new show was to air on NBC called Captain Nice. This show, like most all other shows in prime time television, was produced by other companies and sold to the network. My father’s job (among others) was to advertise in the aforementioned media for all new and current shows. That’s where I came in! Mr. Graham’s adolescent son Bruce (that’s me!) was always showing his dad all the new Marvel and DC comics because his son supremely admired the artists in these publications and collected to obsession all the comic books of his favorite artists. (He even bought two or three of the same issues at a time. He also wanted to be a comic book artist and attended the High School of Art & Design— but that’s another story.)

A Nice Story by Bruce Graham y late father, John J. Graham, was the Director of Design of the NBC television network from the 1940s to 1976. He was responsible for advertising and the “look” of the network in that era. He created many of the NBC logos including the NBC “snake” and the NBC peacock. In those days, illustration artists were widely used for television, magazine, and newspaper ads. My father was the one who hired these artists for NBC. Among those he used, that I know of, are James Bama,

One of those favorite artists was Jack Kirby (of course), so my father had a lot of exposure to his work through me (I’m really very sure about this!), and when a show like Captain Nice came up—well, ’Nuff Said! Jack was the obvious choice as the Illustration Artist to do the artwork for the ads. As I remember it, the Captain Nice picture shown on the back cover of TJKC #21 was used in an animated fashion, i.e. with a close-up camera on the art as it was moved around, and with sound effects and voiceover. The commercial was used quite extensively on national television. Also used in that commercial was a color picture of three cops in a window with guns (shown at left) done by Mr. Kirby in the same style. I also remember meeting Mr. Kirby. My father called me to his office one day and told me that Jack would be there (they were going over the Captain Nice final ad), and asked if I would like to meet him. Of course I went, and met Jack (I was beside myself!), and that’s when he gave me the pencil sketch shown here, signed to me, “To my pal Bruce—Best Wishes, Jack Kirby.” WOW! Pretty cool to show at art school for a 14-year-old kid!★

(left) Chic Stone inked this piece, and Jack watercolored it. Bruce’s dad was also involved in Jack’s proposed NBC television show concept Tiger 21. We’ll have full details on this next issue. Our thanks to Bruce for sharing this material with us. 13

Car & Driver (In which we learn why Jimmy Olsen’s Whiz Wagon, although a brilliant invention, didn’t last very long) by Robert L. Bryant Jr.

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galaxy-sized concepts to those minute, slo-mo panel sequences he loved so much. And all those years later it still felt weird. Again I say “felt.” Jack’s comics don’t look real, but they feel real, which is your take-home-pay long after your Mom throws out the book. About this time I was writing and editing for the UCLA Daily Bruin and I gave myself the assignment of writing a series of interviews with cartoonists. I landed Will Eisner, Chuck Jones, and Milt Caniff. I wanted a fourth, so I started shelling Mark Evanier with phone calls. To get rid of me, Mark arranged some time with Jack. Half of that conversation still exists on tape, which you have here. Back then I thought, if I have a chance to talk to

Jack Kirby Interview Interviewed by Ben Schwartz on December 4th, 1987 Originally published in the UCLA Daily Bruin on January 22, 1988

(Ben Schwartz comments: Maybe The Jack Kirby Collector isn’t the place to say it, but Jack creeped me out. Upon reading my first Jack Kirby comic, Mister Miracle #18, a friend and I—John Francis Moore, a current comics writer—had identical reactions. Decades before we ever met—me in Kenosha, WI, John in Huntington Beach, CA—our respective seven- and nine-year-old minds wrapped around Mister Miracle’s last issue and we thought: What IS this? Who are all these characters? Who is Vermin Vundabar, and that dwarf, and that huge woman Barda? And worst of all, Granny Goodness, who still ranks in my opinion as the most frightening character ever created in comics? And why was it the last issue? Superman, Richie Rich, Archie—they never had last issues. And that big stone guy at the end, Darkseid, laughing in that endless, awful way over a joke only he got—it was crazy. To us, everything about Mister Miracle #18 seemed dark, elusive, and confusing. What is this? Like I said, Jack creeped me out. It happened again. The next year, age 8, my asthma kept me home from school and my Mom bought me a “Mighty Thor” Treasury Edition, which reprints Thor’s epic battle with Hercules and Pluto (over-sized comics still kick ass, by the way). Pluto appears as a Hollywood producer who forces Thor down an infinity stairway to Hades. His face twists into an evil leer and it felt— felt—expansive, confident, brilliant. It made me afraid; so much so that I had to put down the book and wait till bedtime to finish it (a mistake—the nightmares!); and at the end, the villains beaten and the day saved, Thor just sat on a rock out in the middle of the ocean, a lonely, bummed-out Thunder God. Huh? This is a happy ending? Superman never sat on rocks. Batman and Robin swung off into the night, case closed, Joker in jail. And Richie Rich—well, he was still rich. Again, I thought, what is this? Yeah, Jack creeped me out. By the time I got to college I had pretty much written super-heroes off (and still do), but I started looking through Kirby reprints. I loved his oddly shaped characters. I saw the boldness of his original concepts as opposed to the ninety-ninth generation of them the publishers hacked out that month. I hunted up Mister Miracle #18. And instead of Jack overwhelming me, I grooved on just how big the guy thought, the power he packed into his panels, and how he lept from Jack cut the Barda face out of this xerox from Mister Miracle #5 to restore the one Mike Royer altered while inking. 19

that still left him speechless some forty-three years later. That’s on the tape, too. And when Jack tried to describe the horror, trying to find words that still wouldn’t come, I felt seven again. It creeped me out. Jack, too, I’d guess. But right then I knew I’d found what I’d come for, to find out what shaped the man, and how he put into pictures what he couldn’t put into words. But then Jack would shift gears, telling me how funny the war was, like Gen. Patton, furious at seeing Jack alive, or Marlene Dietrich singing to Jack while Nazi shells dropped around their ears. Jack laughed at this, this comedy in the middle of tragedy—and suddenly I knew just what Darkseid was laughing at in his awful way. Jack had seen the big joke, the kind only the gods get—and that really creeped me out. The tape opens with me, still obsessed with Thor, trying to pin Jack down on how he composed the panels for the battle with Hercules. Why is everything symmetrical? Why is good seen as the equal of evil? Why, why, why? And then, Jack told me. JACK KIRBY: It’s not my intention to do great art. It’s my intention to do great story. And whatever effect I’m trying to get has to come across. It’s just my own way of working. I feel that if I’m telling an effective story, which is my job, I’ll sell the magazine—and of course, that’s also my intention. BEN SCHWARTZ: You talk about not wanting to do “great art,” but you have Thor battling Hercules, and you wanted to show them as equals. All these panels are symmetrical, balanced. JACK: I designed ’em, believe me. The pages are made so that they don’t clash with the reader’s vision. So you’ll find that they’re balanced. BEN: Well, as far as this issue goes, it just struck me that you were dealing with two characters, equals, good and evil, and you have it all expressed through the art, the images. JACK: Yes, and believe me, balance is involved. Balance, design, nothing that would clash with the eye. ROZ KIRBY: Nowadays in comic books they break the panels up in all such crazy ways. Have you see them? Kirby’s original, unused cover to Thor #141.

JACK: Well nowadays you can’t follow continuity.

Jack Kirby, what I want to know is how he became Jack Kirby. By that I mean, what does a guy have to go through to come up with comics so disturbing, dark, and wild that I was too scared to read them? On meeting Jack, I immediately told him about that scare. “Oh,” he said, suddenly contrite, “I’m sorry. Really.” I reassured him that an apology wasn’t what I had come for; but that scare is what our conversation turned on, since, as you’ll see, it’s almost entirely about Jack’s lifelong experience dealing with evil—real evil. From the violent slums of the Lower East to the Third Reich to the Marvel Age, Jack saw evil in so many forms. He told me he could draw these things because he knew them. Jokingly, I asked if that meant he ever knew a guy like Pluto. “Oh yeah,” Jack laughed. “Oh, I knew ’em. Believe me.” I laughed, too, but I knew then—Jack meant it. He had seen that evil. He had marched through Normandy days after D-Day while Allied casualties (whole or in pieces) still lay dead on the beach, an experience

ROZ: Yeah, it’s very difficult. BEN: Actually, the guy who does that well is Howard Chaykin. JACK: Well, he has his own style and Chaykin tells a story his own way—but I get a lot of the new books and I notice that some of the guys go a little too far out, where you really have to work to follow the story; and symbolism—I didn’t put in that much symbolism. I happen to know people—and I just put people down as I knew ’em—and villains would do the same things I knew villains would do. BEN: So you knew someone like Pluto? JACK: [laughs] Oh yeah. Oh, I knew ’em. Believe me. BEN: Well, people talk about how fast you are as a penciler, so when 20

you’re working as fast you do—I mean, is the idea to show these two as equals, with that balance?

stories. I wrote the plots. I did the drawings—I did the entire thing because nobody else could do it. They didn’t know how to do it or want to do it and they didn’t give a damn. They were taking money they invested in the magazines and putting it in something else. But I made a living off that. So I put out magazines that sold. I made sure they sold.

JACK: Sure. BEN: Okay. Then to do it that fast, did it just happen as you drew it? JACK: No. My idea was that there is just as much strength in evil as there is in love, see? And that’s why evil is such a danger—the fact that it is so strong—and so I would try to portray it that way.

BEN: I’ve heard stories where an artist would watch a publisher tear up his pages if he didn’t like him. JACK: Sure!

BEN: Is that why The New Gods is about balance, too? You have Orion and the New Gods in New Genesis and then Darkseid—

BEN: And that amazed me. Because you think this is America, right? This shouldn’t happen here.

JACK: Orion and The New Gods is an allegory, really. And the New Gods are just a continuation of the old gods. [In] the old gods, Loki was an evil god. Thor was a good god, a god of virtues. But not only as an allegory, I had Thor as a human being, examining himself saying: “Here I am, I’m supposed to be a great guy, right? Why do I kill people?”

JACK: Well, I’m telling you about an altogether different generation— a generation that did that. A generation that would take guys at the newspapers, telling a great story one day, and the next day they’d throw him out on his pants. You know, they’d just throw him out the door. And people were like that. So, they don’t do that anymore. I think they’ve more or less grown up—and I thank God for that. I thank God that we can all sit and reason with each other.

BEN: Yeah, that’s the last panel here [Thor again] where he’s sort of asking, “What good is it to be a god if you have to temper it?” JACK: Of course, of course, and that’s his problem. Loki finds no problem with that, see? In other words he’s an arrogant type, see? He says, “As long as I’ve got this power and I’m born with it, what am I supposed to do— waste it?”

BEN: So you think the industry has improved?

BEN: There are a lot of consistent ideas in your books, like the use of power. JACK: Yes. BEN: When was it that you first became conscious of these themes? JACK: Well, just working in the comics field you can feel the pushes and pulls of power. In other words, the publisher was the All Power. In order to stay working you had to work along the publisher’s guidelines or else you’d put out a magazine for yourself, which you couldn’t do. In my day money was hard to come by, so risking money was a very hazardous task. So we stayed within the editor’s guidelines—but my sales were very effective so the publisher couldn’t argue much with me, see? So I had an easier time of it than the average guy. BEN: Yeah, in the last ten years comics have changed where you’ll have someone like John Byrne making hundreds of thousands of dollars. JACK: Oh, sure. BEN: And he has all this power to do whatever he wants. But for someone like you in your era, was it much different then? JACK: Yes. Because I took a beating for John Byrne. It was in my generation that the publisher came to learn that sales depended on how you treated the artist. I mean, if he was really good—and that no idea was really a bad one. You gotta give an idea a chance to grow. And I did that with the Marvel books. I wrote the

Unfinished Mister Miracle #3 page. 21

A Failure To Communicate: Part Three by Mike Gartland (featuring Jack’s uninked pencils from Fantastic Four #49)

Rough Surfing n the last article in this series, we read how Galactus first appeared on the scene in Fantastic Four #48, and that after he left he wasn’t supposed to return for a very long time. Perhaps this was why, at the end of that story, a reminder of the mysteries of the Universe was left behind: The Silver Surfer. To Jack this was just another plot thread, to be picked up and used for future stories and adventures; he had no idea at the time of the importance of what he had created. Stan Lee, however, found out soon enough through fan response; the Surfer was sensational. The Surfer must rank among Kirby’s greatest creations; but believe it or not, Jack’s Surfer was short-lived, lasting about two-anda-half years. One must come to understand that there were actually two Surfers: The version Jack created and the one Lee “re-created.” Many are familiar with the often-repeated story of how Lee was presented with the penciled pages to FF #48, only to be surprised by the new character in the story. (Apparently when Jack discussed the plot with Stan he either neglected, or hadn’t yet thought of, the inclusion of the Surfer.) Roy Thomas was present when this occurred and it is he we have to thank for honestly relating a true story that Marvel historians can be sure of. Had Roy not been there and told the tale to readers, in my opinion the Surfer would have become yet another Kirby creation forever mired in the “co-created” ambiguousness associated with the “Lee/Kirby” creations. Jack’s Surfer can only be seen in issues of Fantastic Four.

(above) The Surfer drops in (literally) on Alicia in FF #49. (next page) The turning point of the Galactus Trilogy. 36

thing different about it. “Dynamic” is the word I would use now; I probably didn’t know that word when I was 7. But I remember while Captain America wasn’t one of my big favorites, it was a book I enjoyed. You know, [at] seven years old in the Midwest, it doesn’t occur to you that human beings had done this, (laughter) that there might be names attached to it. And then of course when I went to work for Stan, Jack was one of the very first people I met. I remember watching him work in the office and being so new to the business that I didn’t know how astonishing it was that that guy was sitting there and that as fast as his hand could move, pictures were emerging. (laughter)

O’Neil On Kirby Denny O’Neil interviewed by Bob Brodsky (Like Jack Kirby, Denny O’Neil stands as one of comics’ most prolific talents. While Kirby’s best work relied mainly on the power of his artwork and the cosmic scope of his ideas, O’Neil has walked a different sort of beat. For nearly 35 years he has infused his writing with intelligence, craft and groundbreaking characterization. Originally a journalist, O’Neil began his comics’ career at Marvel in 1965, writing “Dr. Strange” and the occasional Daredevil story for Stan Lee. In 1967 he joined Dick Giordano at Charlton, where, under the pen name “Sergius O’Shaugnessy” he contributed the well-remembered comic book novella “Children of Doom” and Wander, a marvelous sciencefiction/western strip. O’Neil came to DC with Giordano in late 1967 and promptly settled into an incredible six-year run that began with The New Wonder Woman in 1968 and ended with The Shadow in 1974. O’Neil’s considerable creative accomplishments during this period included updating The Justice League and Superman, returning Batman to his “obsessed avenger” roots and introducing “relevance” to comics with his and Neal Adams’ astonishing Green Lantern/Green Arrow series. In the process, he elevated comics to a new place of respect among fans, professionals and, incredibly enough, the “real world” outside the medium. Denny left DC for a writer/ editor position at Marvel in the late-1970s, where he detailed Tony Stark’s struggle with alcoholism in Iron Man and mentored a young Frank Miller before returning to DC in 1985. The late 1980s brought his gritty revival of Steve Ditko’s ’60s Charlton character, The Question, a series O’Neil considers his most honest work to date. Now group editor of the Batman line and the writer/creator of Azrael, O’Neil has also written extensively outside of comics including novels, teleplays and short stories.) THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: When did you first become aware of Jack and his work? DENNY O’NEIL: Probably before I became a professional. I started buying some Marvel comics when I was still a reporter and I imagine that there had to be some Jack Kirby in there. And actually, if you want to tell the strict truth, probably when I was 6 or 7, because I remember reading Captain America and being struck by the artwork. I couldn’t even articulate that I liked it. I just remember that there was some-

TJKC: How well did you get to know Jack during your mid-’60s stay at Marvel? DENNY: Oh, just to say hello to. I don’t think we ever spent an evening

Kung-Fu Fighter #3 pencils. “Jim Dennis” is a pseudonym for Denny and a friend who co-created the character. 44

from some of his editors. Do you recall such a plan? DENNY: No, but Carmine would not have confided in me. That would make some sense; I don’t now if it’s true or not. I mean Marvel was clobbering DC in sales by that time and I imagine that a lot of Marvel’s success was rightfully credited to Jack. So you know, it’s a kind of time-honored ploy to hire your competitor’s big gun, and I think Stan would have been out of the question. (laughter) Again, “resistance from editors”? It’s not an impossible scenario, but I don’t know. TJKC: How did you and Julie Schwartz come to employ the Morgan Edge “man behind the mirror” subplot in your Superman stories? Did you and Jack communicate on this? DENNY: No. It was something that Julie asked me to do. TJKC: I thought that perhaps the Edge subplot was an early attempt at Carmine’s alleged plan. DENNY: It could be; but I was so far down on the totem pole and I wasn’t there very much. I would walk, bicycle, or subway up once or twice a week and do my business and maybe hang around and go to dinner with somebody, maybe not. It was a pretty closed shop in that I don’t think a lot of information was even shared with the editors. I don’t think they got sales figures, for example, which I consider an essential tool for an editor to have. So I don’t know. I suspect that only Carmine could answer those questions, and maybe not Carmine; or maybe Joe Orlando would have known. TJKC: Were you a fan of Jack’s Fourth World? DENNY: I thought it was interesting. It’s like so many things; I now appreciate it more than I did at the time. I now have, I think, a pretty clear idea of what he was up to which was nothing less than creating a new mythology from the ground up, and that’s pretty ambitious; (laughter) but at the time I just thought they were interesting super-hero comics. TJKC: Did you have a favorite book in the series? DENNY: I don’t think so. I liked them all kind of equally; maybe Mister Miracle, by a tiny hair. together as I did with Bill Everett and one or two other people. Jack would come in and if I was in the office or around, I’d see him and say “hi,” but there was no significant interaction.

TJKC: In late 1972, a fanzine called Rocket’s Blast Comic Collector printed an erroneous item stating that Jack had left DC to return to Marvel and that you were going to replace him as editor of Mister Miracle, Kamandi and The Demon. What do you know of this story? DENNY: (laughter) Boy, that’s interesting. I think I wrote a Kamandi or brushed up against that character. In 1972 it was not likely that they would have considered me for that. I don’t remember if that was the year that I actually spent, I think, not quite a year on the payroll. But the year I did spend on the payroll, I would not have won any popularity contests. I sure think if I had been in their position, I wouldn’t have considered me for such a thing and I am willing to testify that nobody ever mentioned it to me. So I kind of suspect that’s one of those rumors that started in the ether somewhere.

TJKC: Do you recall the reaction at DC when it was first learned that Jack would be coming over from Marvel? DENNY: Oh yeah, sure. There was rejoicing. I think that people thought it was a coup. TJKC: How did you feel about Jack joining DC? DENNY: Well, I certainly was approving of it. By that time I knew enough about the business to know how good Jack was, (laughter) and I thought his addition to the line could only mean good things. TJKC: I’ve heard stories over the years that Carmine’s hiring of Jack was in fact an attempt to “Marvelize” DC by extending Jack’s Fourth World as a running subplot across most of the DC line. Supposedly, Carmine’s plan was never fully implemented because of resistance

TJKC: In 1975, as Jack’s DC contract was winding down, you and he produced what I believe was your only work together: Three issues of Justice Inc. and one of Kung-Fu Fighter. Both of those short-lived titles 45