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PACIFIC COMICS COMPANION

WORKING WITH DITKO

JACK KIRBY’S DINGBAT LOVE

BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S

MAINLINE COMICS

CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the superhero serials (1941-1952) of Superman, Captain America, Spy Smasher, Captain Marvel, and others, and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6

STEPHAN FRIEDT & JON B. COOKE examine the independent that published KIRBY, ARAGONÉS, DITKO, ADAMS, GRELL, plus DAVE STEVENS’ Rocketeer!

JACK C. HARRIS recalls collaborating with STEVE DITKO on The Creeper, Shade, Demon, Wonder Woman, The Fly, & more, plus Ditko’s unused Batman design!

The final complete, unpublished Jack Kirby stories in existence: Two unused 1970s DC DINGBATS OF DANGER STREET tales, plus TRUE-LIFE DIVORCE & SOUL LOVE mags!

Collects JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY’s 1954-56 series BULLSEYE (the complete run), plus all the Kirby FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE stories, fully restored!

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IT CREPT FROM THE TOMB

CLIFFHANGER!

TEAM-UP COMPANION OUR ARTISTS AT WAR AMERICAN TV COMICS (1940s-1980s)

THE LIFE & ART OF

DAVE COCKRUM

Digs up the best of FROM THE TOMB (the UK’s preeminent horror comics history magazine), with early RICHARD CORBEN art, HP LOVECRAFT, and more!

MICHAEL EURY examines team-up comic books of the Silver and Bronze Ages of Comics in a lushly illustrated selection of informative essays, special features, and trivia-loaded issue-by-issue indexes!

Examines US War comics from EC, DC COMICS, WARREN PUBLISHING, CHARLTON, and more! Featuring KURTZMAN, SEVERIN, DAVIS, WOOD, KUBERT, GLANZMAN, KIRBY, and others!

History of over 300 TV shows and 2000+ comic book adaptations, from well-known series (STAR TREK, PARTRIDGE FAMILY, THE MUNSTERS) to lesser-known shows.

GLEN CADIGAN’s bio of the artist who redesigned the Legion of Super-Heroes and introduced X-Men characters Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Logan!

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REED CRANDALL

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID

TWO-FISTED COMIC ARTIST

JOHN SEVERIN

ALTER EGO COLLECTORS' ITEM CLASSICS

Master of the Comics

Illustrator of the Comics

MAC RABOY

History of Crandall’s life and career, from Golden Age Quality Comics, to Warren war and horror, Flash Gordon, and beyond!

Presents JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s own words to examine the complicated relationship of the creators of the Marvel Universe!

Biography of the EC, MARVEL and MAD mainstay, co-creator of American Eagle, and 40+ year CRACKED magazine contributor.

Compiles the sold-out DITKO, KIRBY, and LEE issues, plus new material on each!

Documents the life and career of the master Golden Age artist of Captain Marvel Jr. and other classic characters!

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Winter 2024 • The Steve Gerber Issue • Number 33

Ye Ed’s Rant: On Gerber, Skrenes, TwoMorrows’ doings at this year’s SDCC, and more!..... 2 COMICS CHATTER

About Our Cover

Stan’s Excelsior Comics: Ye Ed, with the help of brother editor Roy Thomas, uncovers the secret history of Stan Lee’s own comics imprint developed in the mid-’90s............. 3

Cover art and colors by VAL MAYERIK

Incoming: One reader wishes we talked to Don McGregor about his Spider-Man tale..... 14 Cooke’s Column: Chatting about Philip Bentley, Tim Hensley, and pal Denis Kitchen..... 15

Howard the Duck, Man-Thing, Omega TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Hembeck’s Dateline: Fred’s “Perfect Day” in 1964, with Vic, Boris, and Richie ............... 17 Ten Questions: Darrick Patrick chills out with writer Jonathan Chance............................ 18 Comics in the Library: Richard Arndt on books that took long journeys to the shelf...... 20 Once Upon Long Ago: Steve Thompson goes underground and digs the comix!........... 21 Son of the Flame: Part two of Greg Biga’s profile of artist Mike Deodato, Jr., where we learn, with insights from Tom Brevoort and Rain Beredo, of the artist’s fall and rise..... 22 THE MAIN EVENTS Above: Our cover is actually based on a commissioned painting by Val Mayerik that we found on the internet. When the artist said he had no scan of the piece, he agreed to draw us a replica, this one featuring Omega the Unknown as a puppet in reference to the Mary Skrenes interview herein. Many thanks to Val for producing the cover illustration for this, our Stephen Ross Gerber special ish!

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Mary Skrenes: Dark Figure of Mystery (and Friend of Ol’ Gerber!) CBC’s awesomely entertaining and lengthy interview with the 1970s comics writer, who collaborated with her pal Steve Gerber on Howard the Duck and creating Omega the Unknown with the Gerbs! From growing up in Las Vegas to the wild ’70s Bullpen scene to doing Hard Time with Gerber, this is Mary’s first comprehensive Q-&-A ever!.46 Straight Outta Cleveland: Chrissie Hynde’s “Precious” and a certain Howard T. Duck... 70 Val Mayerik and His Fowl Connection: The artist talks about his life and that bird..... 73 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse clix comics peeps showing off their stuff....... 78 Coming Attractions: Dan Jurgens on the death and life (of Superman) and more!........ 79 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Tom Ziuko shares a Geo. Pérez masterwork!... 80 EDITOR’S NOTE: Note that some images in this issue have been enhanced with software. Right: Detail of Howard the Duck from a 1978 Marvel Comics house ad, drawn by Gene Colan and Klaus Janson.

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $53 US, $78 International, $19 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2024 Jon B. Cooke/ TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Steve Gerber and the Kindness of Strangers Presenting a transcript of a wonderful and informative radio interview with the revolutionary comic-book scribe conducted in early 1994 on the New York City WBAI “Nuff Said” talk show, hosted by Ken Gale and Ed Menja. Featuring some wacky call-in listeners, it spotlights the innovative writer in peak form and at his candid best.......... 30

This issue is dedicated to the memories of JON BERK, JOE MATT, and TED RICHARDS ™

Subversive Tactics JON B. COOKE

Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW

Publisher & Consulting Editor

GREG BIGA

Associate Editor

VAL MAYERIK

Cover Artist & Colorist

RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO STEVEN THOMPSON MICHAEL AUSHENKER Contributing Editors

J.D. KING

CBC Cartoonist Emeritus

TOM ZIUKO

CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON

CBC Illustrator

KEN MEYER, JR. ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON

CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE

CBC Convention Photographer

RICHARD ARNDT FRED HEMBECK DARRICK PATRICK STEVEN THOMPSON TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists

To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail Comic Book Creator c /o Jon B. Cooke, P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892 2

First, let me say I am a massive fan of Stephen Ed as he drove to Gale’s New York City apartment Ross Gerber’s writing, and always have to retrieve the tape and even transferred the since his work on “Man-Thing,” in the Fear audio into digital format for our transcriber. comic book. And my personal affection Many thanks, D.D.! (Readers will find proof for the late scribe runs deep as he on page 16 that Donovan and yours truly go always expressed an appreciation for the way back — and recently met again!) work I did in Comic Book Artist. “I really Alas, as mentioned last ish, CBC nor The enjoy what you’re doing with this magaCharlton Companion scored an Eisner this year, zine and the fact that you’re documenting the but San Diego Comic-Con was still the bestest show history of this medium,” he told me in 2002, ever for yours truly! Not only did Ye Pub John Moradding, “I think it’s incredibly important.” row and I scheme up new book plans, but we both But, truth be told, my initial motivation had extended chats with TwoMorrows readers in producing this Gerber issue was to finally and many others. Lemme tell ya, having copies and I do mean finally! — get into print my of The Pacific Comics Companion, the book interview with Mary Skrenes, herself a comic I co-wrote with Stephan Friedt, purchased book writer of the 1970s and frequent by both Schanes brothers — the pair who Gerber collaborator. Since reading started the furshlugginer company! — was her writing credit in Omega the enormously gratifying (as were the subseUnknown, the outstanding series quent raves they gave the tome after they she co-created with then-boyfriend gave it a read the night before!) Gerber, my curiosity about the The word “chill” best describes SDCC woman scribe has been endless this year and we’re certain the attendees’ and, with the help and enthuoverwhelmingly calm and friendly presence siastic support of Gerbs and her was due to Hollywood being absent this pal Alan Weiss — a friendship that year because of the writer and actor strikes. stretched back to their college days (And the charmingly home-made look to so at the University of Nevada — I was many costumes this year make one suspect able to get in touch and we spoke the major studios must typically subsidize on Super Bowl Sunday, 2005. the slickly-attired cosplayers that usually Steve Gerber by Ronn Sutton populate the event.) During our extensive conversation, I found her to be wickedly funny, smart, and completely At Comic-Con, Ye Ed also confabbed with Colin Turner (for engaging, so you can imagine how eager I was to get this rare what the Last Gasp publisher called his longest meeting of the interview in print. But, after waiting for her copyedit of the show!) and we’re working fast and furious on the Last Gasp transcript, I worried she might fear that she was revealing too history-slash-Ron Turner retrospective, which we’re hoping to much in print. (In the middle of one of his own particularly re- have out at next year’s SDCC! Hanging with Ronzo was mos’ vealing blog postings about the heartache of romance, Gerber def’ a show highlight… not to mention spending time with parenthetically wrote in 2005, “I have to stop and smile for a Carol Tyler, David Siegel, Charlie Kochman, Eddie Campbell, moment, picturing Mary — my writing partner on Hard Time [a Wendy and Richard Pini, Mat Klickenstein, Dan Didio, Bill mid-2000s Vertigo title] — reading this, appalled. She’s such a Stout, Steve Ringgenberg, Mark Evanier, Bill Leach, Lenny private person that when she gets back to town she’ll probably Schwartz, Michelle Nolan, and, of course, our booth mate, castigate me for having just revealed that she’s such a private Jake Modica, and fellow TwoMorrows’ editor (and my Eisner person. I’m sure she’s completely aghast that anyone would Award plus-one) Keith Dallas! The show was a complete blast! parade their emotions around in public like this. Well, yeah, I Hope you enjoy the Excelsior! Comics feature that starts am too — but what the f*ck?”) on the next page, as I visited Rascally Roy Thomas at his South So, in recent years, I nudged Skrenes to approve the Carolina spread, back in the late spring, to score the exclusive transcript and the blessed final go-ahead came this past inside story of Stan Lee’s ill-fated 1990s comic book line. March, and I immediately set into motion this Gerber tribute. Mail has been picking up as of late, but please don’t As prepared as I was to write an extended biographical essay hesitate to send in any thoughts you have about this ish and on the man, as I did for CBC #11’s Gil Kane retrospective, I the mag in general. We’re doing our darndest to keep up the can’t thank David Donovan enough for offering Ken Gale and quarterly schedule — not perfect, as my feature writing can Ed Menja’s informative and entertaining radio interview with slow things up — but I sincerely hope, however delayed, CBC is Gerber from 1994. Donovan literally went the distance for Ye worth the wait. But you tell me what you think, okay? Thanks!

cbc contributors

Dell Barras Philip Bentley Rain Beredo Tom Brevoort

Kurt Busiek Jonathan Chance Tom DeFalco Mike Deodato, Jr.

David Donovan Tim Hensley Denis Kitchen Alan Light

Elliot S. Maggin Tom Mason Rob McCallum Moss Plaine

— Ye Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

Cory Sedlmeier Roy Thomas Rob Tokar Marv Wolfman

PLEASE SEE OUR LIST OF THANKS FOR THE GERBER SECTION ON PG. 39

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC Color Portrait Artist

Ye Ed confesses to a bit of devious subterfuge with this “Gerber ish”

This issue is dedicated to the memories of JON BERK,

up front

Stan’s Excelsior Comics

The inside story of the ill-fated mid-1990s comic book line created by Stan “The Man” Lee by JON B. COOKE There in the twilight cold and gray, Lifeless, but beautiful, he lay, And from the sky, serene and far, A voice fell like a falling star, Excelsior! — “Excelsior” [1841], Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

The Man, he was obviously excited about it, enough so to trumpet the new line’s apparent impending arrival in the annual of note among his fellow newspaper comic strip professionals. There it was, on page 166 of The National Cartoonists Society Album of 1996: an announcement to make envious his peers regarding his own line of comic magazines: “After two decades, Stan is still writing the Spider-Man newspaper strip,” it read, “and is about to launch Excelsior Comics, his own imprint for Marvel.” Stan, of course, was Stan “The Man” Lee, fabled impresario of Marvel Comics, and that new brand — named for Lee’s signature phrase, which was probably derived from Longfellow’s samenamed poem* (the final stanza quoted above) — was a small but ambitious imprint that, during Marvel’s tumultuous 1990s, would be fully developed yet, alas, never live to see the light of day.

When asked by the Rock Island Argus entertainment editor about the origin of his one-word sign-off, Lee explained, “I love using unique expressions and I was always trying to come up with ones that are new and distinctive. I started using ‘nuff said,’ but then I noticed the competition began doing the same thing. So then I switched to ‘Face front!’ and a few others, and they kept copying them. So finally I wanted to come up with something they couldn’t figure out or copy, and I came up with ‘excelsior.’ Everything about it seemed to work. I liked the sound of it; I liked that it * According to my copy of The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary [1971], the word had a dubious origin: “The adverbial meaning (= ‘upwards’) commonly given to the motto cannot be justified by Latin grammar. According to [Longfellow’s biography], the poet was at first unaware of the solecism [misusage] in the motto as thus interpreted, and, when it was pointed out to him, suggested the words might be taken to stand for Scopus meus excelsior ets, ‘My goal is higher.’” Referring to it being established in 1778 as the motto on the seal of the State of New York, the dictionary shared, “It is not clear whether the original use on the seal is a blunder, or whether it was meant as an abbreviation for some grammatically admissible phrase.” COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

meant ‘upward and onward’; I liked that it was kind of an obscure word, and I don’t think the competitors were smart enough or verbose enough to get it and copy it. And I was right. It really caught on and became kind of a signature phrase for myself and for Marvel Comics. And now we actually have a comics line called Excelsior Comics.” By the time Sean Leary’s Q-&-A saw print on Dec. 24, 1995, Lee had become ever more frustrated with the production of the four titles that comprised the Excelsior line. “Stan had wanted to get the new books out for a while now,” Ronin Ro related in Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and the American Comic Book Revolution [2004], “but Marvel was trying to license the characters to a company that made video games. Until that deal was signed, nothing would happen. The delay was getting to him — he’d been developing Excelsior Comics for a year now — but Marvel executives said he simply had to wait until the right time.” BACK TO BASICS? A few months before a fateful final decision was made back in the Marvel Entertainment Group corporate offices, Lee expressed his dismay over violence in comics of that era. “When you talk about how much darker, or rougher things have gotten,” he told a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette feature writer, “I’m not happy with it, because the whole world has gotten darker and, along with it, movies, television, and your family newspaper.” He continued, “I will admit that, in today’s comics, there doesn’t seem to be as many different emotions. It’s all angst and anger. Eventually, my guess is, the public will get tired of this one-note treatment by every comic-book company, though I think Marvel is less guilty of it than others.” The newspaper revealed, citing his co-creators of an earlier decade, “Lee hopes to recover a bit of the magic he, Kirby, and Ditko had in the ’60s with his own Excelsior Comics line, slated to debut in ’96. The imprint will be distributed by Marvel.” But any impression that the books would be unlike the darker, rougher Image Comics and some return to the wholesome, G-rated milieu of Jolly Jack, Sturdy Steve,and Smilin’ Stan would be wrong, said Kurt Busiek, who contributed to the Excelsior line. “No, I got exactly the opposite impression. If I remember correctly, all the series premises had some sort of dark, gritty, edgy aspect to them, like Stan was very much trying to play to a modern audience.”

Above: The logo for Stan Lee’s Excelsior comics line, intended to be a sub-imprint of Marvel, which was developed between 1994–96, but was deep-sixed by unknown parties despite much work being completed on the four titles. Inset left: Lee’s bio blurb from the 1996 National Cartoonist Society Album. Below: Roy Thomas (left) and Lee smile for the camera while displaying the massive Taschen-published tome, 75 Years of Marvel [2014].

son of the flame

Deodato Never Gives Up

Part two of the Mike Deodato, Jr., story with insights from Tom Brevoort and Rain Beredo by GREG BIGA

This page: Below is Mike Deodato, Jr.’s design for Weapon H and, at bottom, the artist in a recent photograph.

[We learned in part one that, after he got his start in the comics industry of his native Brazil, Deodato Taumaturgo Borges Filho — Mike Deodato, Jr., to you and I — came to American comics without knowing the English language, but with a very unique approach to his work. As he began his first tenure at Marvel, Mike lost that personal touch, subverting his own career with the launch of the Mike Deodato, Jr., Studios. Here we dive deep into the fall and rebirth of the artist at Marvel Comics. — G.B.] MADE TO BE AN AVENGER? Beginning in 1994, after tremendous success at DC with Wonder Woman, Mike Deodato leapt into the House of Ideas by taking on the penciling duties of The Avengers. Headlining one of the top team books in history is not the common way for a “recent discovery” to enter the Marvel roster but, in the mid’90s, Mike was proving to be more than an average talent. Tom Brevoort, longtime editor for Marvel and later to be Deo’s champion, remembers Mike’s arrival. “As I recall, editor Ralph Macchio lined him up for Avengers right at the very beginning of that Wonder Woman run. So, he wasn’t influenced by it, in particular, but rather simply by the strength of Deodato’s style. And he seemed like he’d be a great fit for the book, somebody who could synthesize the John Buscema sort of approach to the team with the then-modern ‘big figure’ style

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

of the Image creators.” Mike, on the other hand, did believe his successful run with Wonder Woman factored into his being assigned a choice gig straight on at Marvel and not just his initial samples. “I think it was a combination of both,” says the artist. “I remember I did samples for Avengers, specifically, and I ended up using the same scenes again. I think it was a combination of the two. “I remember, my plan was to make it as good as Wonder Woman, with me doing the inks and everything. But after, I think, four or five pages, my agent told me, ‘No, you are only doing breakdowns and Tom Palmer is going to finish it because we have a lot of other books that Marvel editors want you to work on.’ So, I was kind of bummed because I wanted to do my best work ever. And, if you see my first issue of Avengers, the four first pages are very, very well done. And then, it’s not. So, I could do Hulk against Hercules, a special one. I did a lot of other books while I was doing Avengers. I was doing it in this kind of style that was only breakdowns. I was doing four pages a day. So, it was very, very fast. And Palmer had to do a lot of work to make it readable.” By 1994, Palmer was already a legend as an inker. The late giant had brought his pen to some of the greatest storylines in Marvel history. The Image era provided pencilers who were not always a great match in style with Tom. Deo shares he was among them. “Yeah, well, I loved the work he did on Gene Colan, especially. It was fantastic. [But] I was not satisfied because I was doing it in a rush. And Tom Palmer also had to do a lot of things in a rush, too. And I don’t think the result was good. It was not his best because he was working over breakdowns. And it was not my best because I was doing four pages of breakdowns per day. So, I was not satisfied at all with the results, overall. It had a lot of energy and big figures, but I was not happy, to be very honest. But you can see in the first four pages that he inked was great. So, if I were doing the pencils like I should, with his inks, the result would be much better.” During his two tenures at Marvel, Mike would frequently return to The Avengers, a title that appears to be ‘“his book.” Deo explained, “Well, at first, it was fantastic. I was doing The Avengers the first time. And then, [on] every occasion, I would jump into

an Avengers book, there was a different kind of enthusiasm or a source of enthusiasm or a reason for me to be happy again. It was like Brian Bendis doing New Avengers and then he created Dark Avengers just for me, only for me. Oh, it was fantastic. And it was all made up of villains. I love villains. I like more to draw villains. And every time there was a different reason. “And then, Ed Brubaker did Secret Avengers, with all kinds of heroes I didn’t draw before. And so, every time, there was a different reason.” He added with a laugh, “But I actually never liked to draw group titles, because it’s too much work. Too many characters doing too many things. And, if it is written by Brian Bendis, then there is eight characters in eight panels [per] page.” The artist laughed again and said, “And it’s crazy.” Deo continued, “I really prefer a book with one character in the desert. Like the Wolverine [Annual #2, Nov. 2008] I did. Wolverine ‘Roar.’ He’s in the desert fighting in a ghost city fighting a werewolf. That’s it. Because, for me, the time I spend on the page depends on how many panels and how many people per panel. Because the same energy I put in a cover, I put in every panel. So, if there is a lot of people… more time, more time. I know it’s part of the business.” Early in his Marvel days, Deo recalls having a longtime editor attempt to give him constructive advice. “Bob Harras tried to teach me storytelling at San Diego Comic-Con, in 1995, and I was just not listening. He was telling me the importance of storytelling. That storytelling was not ‘Image.’” The former editor-in-chief at Marvel attempted to impress upon Deo the importance of panel progression and pacing in a story over flashy sequences. “Yeah, he wanted me to do it. Of course, he’s an editor and he knows the importance of storytelling. I didn’t. I wanted to do big splash pages and there was, of course, a lot of panels and I would just cram them in the sides of the pages. And it was a mess. And I was even using those double-pages that were tilted. So, it was great visually. But, of course, it was a pain to do that thing. I started doing that after I saw Adam Kubert use it on Wolverine #90 [Feb. 1995]. It’s a masterclass in storytelling, those doubles that folded in four pages. It’s great. It’s amazing. And I tried to do that. But, of course, I didn’t have the same experience.” Unfortunately, the two things which would hamper Mike at Marvel had already taken root. Whether through his decision or through the overzealousness of his agent, he took on more work than he could possibly do of high quality. And, through pride in his ability, he remained steadfast in the style which brought him to get assignments in America. These situations began causing issues as Mike began work on his first event, Avengers: The Crossing [one-shot, Sept. 1995]. “Yeah, I remember I did that cover with Thor [#502, Sept. 1996] in his new uniform I had created. And the other uniforms, people think that was me. But it was Joe Madureira who did them. I remember that image was published everywhere. But I don’t remember much of the story at all. I remember Iron Man was a kid back then. Yeah, I don’t remember much. I remember I was excited by the importance of the event. But I don’t remember much of the story, to be honest. I was working so much, I didn’t have time to even cut my hair back then.” As Deo mentioned, he redesigned the classic Kirby Thor costume. He did so in the look of an Image-styled book. “Well, every list of the worst uniforms of all time, it’s there. Yeah, definitely. But Tom Brevoort said he liked it. I prefer the classic uniform. I was so bummed because I thought I was gonna draw Thor in the classic uniform. And then they had me do it new. So, I mixed Spawn with everything. There was also, in the original drawing, there was chains attached to the hammer. I don’t COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

remember if it went to the pages. And, yeah, it was terrible. It was terrible, but some people like it.” In fact, during Deo’s first go at Marvel, Brevoort shares what he believes to be Mike’s best work. “I’d probably have to say [Mike’s best is] the four issues of Thor that he did with Warren Ellis [“Worldengine” story arc, Thor #491–494, Oct. 1995–Jan. 1996]. If nothing else, they made for a cohesive whole, a single, self-contained story that did a bit for putting the Thunder God back onto the radar of the readers of the time. Warren’s scripts also pushed Deo to produce images that were less typically super-hero shots and were more iconic — like that cover [Thor #491, Oct. 1995] that’s just Thor’s hand holding his hammer in the rain. A lovely image.” “Yeah, he’s right,” Mike says. “It’s the story I’m most proud of at that time. It was a great idea for a story to make the gods aliens and more scary than anything. It was fantastic. Everything I like to draw; the horror and the zombies, it was there. I was very, very excited. Of course, there is some storytelling that is not so good. But the first issue was pretty good. And I was very, very excited. And it’s one of my best works, really.”

Above: Mike’s blockbuster cover of Incredible Hulk #60 [Nov. 2003]. Colors by the late Hermes Tadeu. Below: For the mighty Thor story arc, “Worldengine,” [Thor #491–494, Oct. 1995–Jan. 1996], written by Warren Ellis, Mike did a redesign of the Norse god’s costume. This is a detail of Mike’s art from that saga.

Steve Gerber Had he not passed away in 2008, Stephen Ross Gerber would have turned 76 by the time you read these words. During the era discussed, he had cultivated a reputation as a writer with an appetite for the absurd while rocketing to popularity at the House of Ideas. His satirical touch was perfectly attuned to those pretty stoned years, and subsequent struggles in his crusade for creator’s rights defined, in comics, much of the coming decade. As writer, his talent is sorely missed and, as a person, Steve will never be forgotten. Following is an edited transcript of a live radio interview broadcast on February 2, 1994. — Ye Ed.

Ed Menje: This is “’Nuff Said!,” and we got an interesting show planned for you. We got Steve Gerber, the man who created Howard the Duck, and did a whole bunch of other stuff… We enter the wild, wacky, wonderful world of that West Coast wunderkind, Steve Gerber, that Sage Sultan of Stirring Sagas and Doctor of Duckology, the creator of Howard the Duck, who has also lent his prodigious pen to presenting peerless parables of the Man-Thing, Superman, Spider-Man, the Defenders, and the Hulk. We’ll also confab on his current creative conquest for Ultraverse, Sludge… [cites station identification and refers to musical interlude] You heard musically “Cold Metal,” by Iggy Pop and the Howard the Duck theme song from the film, from the climactic scene where Howard and Beverly’s band gets up on stage and plays that wonderful music written by Thomas Dolby. And I’m Ed Menje. Ken Gale: I’m Ken Gale. Ed: And on the phone we got Steve Gerber. Steve Gerber: Hello.

Ed: Hello. So did the Howard the Duck music bring back bad memories? Steve: Actually I could barely hear it over the phone. So, it didn’t have a chance to bring back… There are some good memories associated with it all. So, I was at one of the recording sessions — or rather one of the [music] video filming sessions — that they did for the movie. The video, I think, played about half-a-time on MTV, and it was nice to meet Thomas Dolby and some of those people… Ed: When did you start in comics? What year are we talking? Steve: Oh, 1972, actually; 22 years ago… 23½, actually. It was June of 1972. Ed: What was your first book? Steve: The very first thing I ever did for Marvel, I believe, was a plot for a “Man-Thing” story. That was not the first “Man-Thing” that appeared on the stands, but that was the first thing I ever wrote for them. Ed: So what was the first thing that appeared on the stands? Steve: Probably the first issue of Shanna the She-Devil [Dec. 1972], which I

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

To be honest, the list of comic book writers whose prose and storytelling consistently blew my mind as a teenager was a pretty short one. While I really enjoyed Bob Haney and Doug Moench’s respective work — and Roy Thomas remained my favorite writer/ editor — there were three scribes working at Marvel whose efforts truly nailed those crazy, uncertain days of the early to mid-’70s. Don McGregor and Steve Englehart had been truly saying something about life in that time of liberation, ecological awareness, Vietnam, and Watergate. And there was another who especially captured the insanity of that nutty age.

Photo courtesy of Alan Light.

served as additional dialogue. Carole Seuling had written the original script… Nice lady. Ed: So you began with “Man-Thing” [in Fear], which you took over…? Steve: Yeah, that was the very first thing I did for them. And it was curious, too, because I had just read the introductory story or one of the introductory stories… I think they had done a guest shot with the character in “Ka-Zar,” or something like that, prior to my working on it, and I had just finished reading that and got my first assignment over the phone — I was still in St. Louis when I wrote it — from Roy Thomas. Ed: So how did you know Roy? Steve: Roy and I go back many, many years, to the time when I was actually about 13 years old. We met through a letter column in Hawkman… that’s basically it. I mean, you know, Roy had written some letter to Julie Schwartz’s Hawkman comic, talking about the old Justice Society characters in the earlier versions of the various DC characters. And it sort of piqued my interest. And he also lived in Missouri about… I don’t know… probably about 80 miles from where I lived. So I dropped him a note and asked him about this stuff and, you know, actually had the gall to say, “Well, gee, can you send me some pictures of these characters? I’d really be curious to see what they looked like.” And, amazingly, he was gracious enough to respond and actually loaned me a few Golden Age comics through the mail, if you can picture that. Which was how I kind of got my grounding in all of the stuff that came before 1960 or so. Ed: So you were pretty new to comics then?… If you didn’t know who the Justice Society was and you were reading Hawkman, you must have been pretty new to comics. Steve: Well, no. I was born in 1947, so, by the time that I was old enough to read, the Justice Society was virtually gone, and I had never seen those books. I remember the Superman and Batman books from the early ’50s. Some of those are still dearly and fondly remembered, but I had never seen any of the other super-hero characters, other than Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. I didn’t know there were any [others]. Ed: So you knew Roy and he invited you to write comics. Is that how you got in? Steve: Basically, that’s it. I was working in advertising in an agency in St. Louis, and writing savings and loan commercials, and that sort of thing. Roy had just been promoted to editor of Marvel Comics, and I dropped him a line, at some point, and said, “Look, I’m going crazy. I can’t write another, you know, savings and loan jingle or I’m going to lose my mind. Is there anything open at Marvel?” And, coincidentally, I had written him at exactly the time Marvel had started to expand. Stan had just become publisher as opposed to editor… The conglomerate that would be so near and dear to my heart in later years, Cadence Industries, had just bought Marvel and they were right on the verge of their first major expansion. So, basically, he said, “Yeah, we’ve got something.” Sent me a writer’s test (which I don’t know if they do anymore). I took it, sent it back to them, and they said, “Yeah, you’re qualified.” So that was how I got the job at Marvel. Ed: Your first job was dialoguing Shanna? Steve: I worked as a proofreader and editorial assistant in the office, and my first actual scripting job for Marvel was the first issue of Shanna, the She-Devil. Ed: What a great beginning. Steve: A peculiar beginning, anyway. It certainly doesn’t happen that way anymore. Ed: Marvel was pretty different in those days… What was it like? Steve: Oh, Marvel was a madhouse in those days. There were 15 people in an office. We were at 625 Madison Avenue, corner of 56th, 57th, something like that, down as far up as 57th. It was like a block or so below. And the office was about the size of the editor’s office [today]… a tiny little place with about 15 or 16 people there. And we turned out all of those books from that tiny office. Well, not the writing and drawing, of course. Those were done by freelancers, but the editorial staff was all contained in that little office. And somehow we managed to get out everything we needed to do. Ken: Yeah, I sort of joined comics just a few years later and the thing I remember most is all the parties. Every week there were anywhere from one to three parties. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Photo by Alan Light 31

Mary Skrenes There’s a photo of the writer in an Academy of Comic Book Arts newsletter from June 1973, and it sums up how I had envisioned Mary Skrenes over the years. It’s a candid shot of the ACBA Shazam Awards banquet with a standing Bernie Wrightson leaning to talk with seated Skrenes, and all one sees is her straight, long hair, her facial features hidden (just like Smilin’ Jack’s pal, Downwind, whose face was always concealed). A woman of mystery! Comic Book Creator: Where are you from? Mary Skrenes: Well, I grew up in Vegas, from the time I was one. CBC: And the kind of life that you had, was it suburban, pretty much? Mary: Yeah, I grew up in a little neighborhood with trees and single-story houses and kids playing football in the street. I lived two blocks from the school I went to, and the church we went to, and two blocks from “the Strip.” CBC: What was Vegas like in… I guess this would be the days of the Rat Pack, pretty much…? Mary: Yeah, it was around that time. [laughs] It was a small town. It was… Oh, gosh, I don’t even know how many people it had. [35,000 then and now 28,000,000 — M.S.] There was the Strip, and all of the entertainment, lavish shows with full orchestras and showgirls with tall feathered head dresses, and headliners like Frank and Dean and Sammy and… the Mob. They weren’t overt about it, but they had their reserved booths at shows and the many gourmet restaurants. It was just a nice, quiet town where people could raise their families. People were always surprised that families actually lived here. [laughs] And they thought that nobody had running water, outside of the Strip. It was a very conservative town. I think it probably had more churches than any other small

Well, of mystery comics, anyway, as she contributed to the Joe Orlando books at DC back in the day, usually under the pseudonym, “Virgil North.” But she was most prominent collaborating with Steve Gerber, when they jammed on Howard the Duck and, in 1976, they cocreated Omega the Unknown. This chat was conducted on Super Bowl Sunday 2005 and, after my insistent nagging, she finished the copy-edit and also added a few notes. — Ye Ed. town. The entertainers went to church, everybody went to church. CBC: Did you see celebrities with any regularity? Mary: Well, yes, I did. I saw Danny Thomas, sitting in his car, waiting outside church for Marlo. [laughs] My father opened the first 24-hour laundromat in Las Vegas, which had the first coin-operated dry-cleaning machines in it, and so I would see celebrities in the laundromat. [laughs] CBC: Oh, yeah? Like who? Mary: Oh, like Pat Boone. And my dad was in real estate, and he sold houses to the Dukes of Dixieland. I remember seeing the Mills Brothers, who were awesome. And Dad also managed a little shopping center that was on Sahara, a couple of miles from the Strip. Celebrities came there for groceries and the shoe store and the barber. I mean, people did their own errands back then. They didn’t have entourages. CBC: And where’d you get exposed to comics? Mary: Well, my dad was in favor of comics. He read the Sunday funnies to me every week, and he bought me comic books. He bought me Tarzan and Uncle Scrooge, my favorite, because I loved all the adventures that they went on. And Little Lulu, and Disney comics. I had the biggest stack of comic books in the neighborhood and, because

Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Steven E. Tice 46

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‘Dark Figure of Mystery’ (and Friend of Ol’ Gerber) of that, I found out that there were more than pictures, that there were actually words in these comics. I would pass them out the window to my friends when I was supposed to be taking my nap. [laughs] And I said, “I can read these faster than you.” And the kid from down the block, who was a couple years older than me, said “You’re not reading the words.” Then, all of a sudden, I saw the word balloons, I saw the words! I had to learn to read, but I had to wait. I had to go to kindergarten and then first grade before I could learn to read. It was really frustrating. CBC: Was it telling that it was a competitive thing that got you off? [laughs] Mary: No, it was just, I just hadn’t noticed the words before. I mean, my dad read them to me. All of a sudden, it just clicked. So, I had to know how to read those words. But, in those days, they didn’t have Sesame Street or preschool. Everybody knows how to read before they get to first grade, today. I had to wait, wait, and wait. [laughs] So comics were pretty important to me. CBC: And did you also watch television and get exposed to radio? Mary: Well, radio. When I was about four, I’d turn on the radio and I’d hope that The Shadow and The Lone Ranger, or something like that, would be on. I remember Fibber McGee and Molly because it opened up with, “Don’t open that closet!” Crash! [laughs] We didn’t have a television until I was seven, and then I wasn’t allowed to watch it on weeknights. I could watch it on Friday and Saturday nights only. In high school, I couldn’t even watch Star Trek. Pretty cruel and unusual…

CBC: Now, you told me you took a liking to science fiction. Did you go to movies in the ’50s and stuff? Mary: I remember going to the Huntridge Theater. It would be Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers or Superman. The neighbor kids and I would go every Saturday morning. There’d be a serial and a cartoon for 25¢ and it would last about two hours. It was close enough to walk. Nothing was too far from where we lived. When my parents took us, we only went to Disney movies. CBC: Why the restrictive upbringing, do you think, in retrospect? Mary: Because my parents were… They were really good people and worried about “bad” influences. I think they were really kind of afraid of the world, and they believed that everything was a threat. My father was in business for himself. He built and managed a shopping center for a client. He was a real estate broker and put a laundromat next door in the center. My first paying job, at age 12, was cleaning the office and laundromat. Later, in high school, I managed the laundry during the summer. I always liked creating little business things for myself. I sold advertising for the high school newspaper. Then, in college, I kind of took over the newspaper, UNLV’s Rebel Yell. I sold advertising and, over the first summer there, I switched This spread: Mary Skrenes (pronounced SKREE-nez) takes a toke of a cigar in this 1970s’ pic. Above is her, Steve Harper, and Bernie Wrightson at Shazam Awards banquet. Below: where it all started, the 1969 New York Comic Art Con luncheon, with Mary seated next to DC editor Dick Giordano (the guy with sideburns and back to camera), who accepted her first comics work, and smiling pal, Alan Weiss, and his girlfriend, Pami, to Mary’s right.

Inset right: Penciler Gene Colan and inker Alan Weiss art graces this Howard the Duck #24 [May 1978]. Background: Ghosted detail from Howard the Duck house ad. Below: Bombshell debut album of the Pretenders, released by Sire Records in December 1979.

Now like Howard the Duck and Mr. Stress both stayed, Trapped in a world that they never made, But not me, baby, I’m too precious, I had to f*ck off! (As Rolling Stone rock critic Bud Scoppa noted, the words, “I had to,” in the last line are inaudible: “Chrissie Hynde swallows the first three words before delivering the F-bomb with a fearlessness….”1 Her abbreviation turns that lyric into an angry, disdainful two-word demand, therein making “Precious” a bona fide rock ’n’ roll classic single of exhilarating defiance.) Now, with my first listen, I hadn’t deciphered all of the song’s lyrics yet, but I sure as heck immediately recognized the words: “Trapped in a world that they never made!” And, soon enough, it would dawn on me that Hynde was actually — yowza! —name-dropping writer Steve Gerber’s fowl extraterrestrial creation… as well as somebody named Mister… something… “Stressbough”…? Then, hearing of rock legend Hynde’s background as an Ohio native (courtesy of the B-side of their 1982 single “Back on the Chain Gang,” her song all about Buckeye State memories called, “My City Was Gone”), a common theme was emerging: to escape the Mistake by the Lake.

With all due respect to Ohio’s second-most populous and much maligned city, a burgh used as a punchline in a thousand stand-up comedy routines, Gerber was doubtlessly making an intentional joke when he choose the metropolis as the setting for Howard the Duck, a comic book starring a talking bird who fell to Earth from his home planet only to become trapped in the world he never made: i.e., the city of Cleveland. “We in Cleveland,” cartoonist and graphic novelist John Backderf wrote on his Derfblog site, “don’t view him as our own, because he wasn’t, really. Most Clevelanders would be surprised to learn his story was set here. Howard’s heyday was the ’70s, the low point in our fair city’s history. Everybody was laughing about our burning river, our mayor’s burning hair, the city’s default, Mayor Dennis Kucinich, and what a dump this sprawling Rustbelt town was. Every night, Johnny Carson was cutting on Cleveland. Howard the Duck was just more piling on. It was also painfully obvious Gerber had never set foot in the city. It was Cleveland in name only.”2 In an online posting, the creator confirmed Derf’s suspicion. “I’ve never actually been to Cleveland,” Gerber confessed. “Other than the Cuyahoga River, all the place names and street names and whatnot in the Howard the Duck stories were completely made up. I used to tell interviewers that Howard’s Cleveland was less a place than a state of mind.”3 It’s no surprise that a person who really did trudge Cleveland’s mean streets and yearned to get the hell out of that town was Christine Ellen Hynde. As revealed in her autobiography, #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

B ud Scoppa, “Pretenders,” review, Rolling Stone website [Nov 11, 2004], https://web.archive.org/ web/20080207135357/http:// www.rollingstone.com/reviews/ album/259325/review/6561334/ thepretenders. 2 John Backderf, “In Defense of Howard the Duck,” Derfblog website [Aug. 16, 2014], http:// derfcity.blogspot.com/2014/08/indefense-of-howard-duck.html. 3 Steve Gerber, “On Writing Howard the Duck,” blog posting, Steve Gerber: Conversations [2019, University of Mississippi Press], pg. 216. 4 Chrissie Hynde, Reckless: My Life as a Pretender [2015, Doubleday], pg. 162. 5 Ibid, pg. 165. 6 Ibid, pg. 169. 7 Ibid, pg. 170. 8 Steve Gerber, email to writer [Feb. 16, 2005]. 9 J eff Gelb, email to writer [Feb. 16, 2005]. 1

I can’t remember if I blurted out, “Wauugggh!,” but I probably came pretty close to sh*ttin’ a proverbial brick when first I heard it. Either way, to this day, I vividly remember exactly where I was when the three-minute, 36-second song came hurtling out of my buddy Stephan’s fancy quadraphonic sound system. I was in college. It was 1980. My then-girlfriend/now-wife and I were standing in his apartment on a sunny day, when my pal insisted we just had to give our attention to this incredible debut album from a brand-new British rock band, one with an American lead singer. So, as I casually scanned the album sleeve’s liner notes and chuckled over its instruction to “PLAY THIS ALBUM LOUD!,” Stephan dropped the needle on the group’s self-titled album. And that first cut just… blew… me… away. Listening to “Precious,” the opening song of their vinyl disk, I instantly became, at that very nanosecond and blink of an eye, a lifelong Pretenders fan and, of course, a huge admirer of lead vocalist/songwriter Chrissie Hynde. Emanating out of the pricey speakers like a banshee, the song was an angry, empowered, almost ecstatic anthem rife with sly seduction and unapologetic rage… and, as the cut hits its crescendo, of all things, in the song’s climatic verse, there’s a mention of a very hip Marvel Comics character and variant of his immortal catch phrase!

Jon B. Cooke on Chrissie Hynde, “Precious,” and a Duck Named Howard Reckless [2015, Doubleday], for Hynde, then an Ohio-born nobody getting caught up in some pretty hairy situations in that urban vicinity — chugging Mad Dog 20/20 rotgut, getting unwitting dosed with blue mescaline, hopping into an armed stranger’s car, etc. — Cleveland was an absolute sh*thole. Despite it being the place where disk jockey Alan Freed coined the term “rock and roll” and the town that, in Hynde’s words, “always led the way in rock,” she wrote in Reckless, “Cleveland was a city in decline. The steel industry was failing and the downtown was, like Akron’s, unloved and unlived in, but, unlike Akron’s, very heavy and very dangerous.”4 After unsavory, potentially life-threatening experiences, the wannabe rock star admitted, “Cleveland and I were not hitting it off,”5 and said the place was “all played out for me,”6 so she headed for the city limits. “Every mile away from Cleveland was a mile cherished,” she said, adding with a shrug, “I’m sorry to speak so ill of Cleveland, but c’mon — the place was a f*cking disaster zone. And, anyway, I’m from Akron.”7 As is painfully obvious, I became overly obsessed with “Precious” for three reasons after my pal Stephan got me hooked on it: it’s a phenomenal record, she’s a tremendous songwriter/ singer, and, of course, because it mentions a fave, ultra-kinchy comic book character! So, in early 2007, I decided to ask Steve

Gerber, as well as two friends of mine then in the rock music industry (and also big name comics fans), Jeff Gelb and Hugh Surratt, if they knew anything about the song. Gerber sent me a smartypants reply — “I’ve always wondered about that lyric myself,” he snarked about some imaginary coupling, “but even in the sizzling infrared afterglow, Chrissie would never tell me what it meant. She just whispered, ‘Use your imagination.’ (An assh*le can dream, can’t he?)”8 But Gelb was no-nonsense when he clued me into the identity of “Mr. Stressbough,” correcting my guess at a name: “Mr. Stress was a ’70s-era blues band from either Kent or Akron, Ohio.”9 (In his reply, Gelb also revealed that he had a connection with Hynde from their college days, but more on that in the sidebar below!)

Above: Mr. Stress album from 2016, featuring Bill Miller on the cover. Below: Cartoon by Chrissie Hynde, saved by Jeff Gelb since their college years together.

Chrissie Hynde: Cartoonist Cartoon by Chrissie Hynde. Courtesy of Jeff Gelb. Mr. Stress album cover © the respective copyright holder.

Jeff Gelb remembers hanging with the Rock ’n’ Roll Queen in their college days First, let’s set the stage. It’s Winter 1970 in Kent, Ohio, which means it’s very cold indeed – a real blizzard, in fact. I’m a junior at Kent State University, just a few months after the terrible murder of four students there in May. I knew three of them, and one spent the last night of her life in the spare bed in my dorm room with her boyfriend. But that’s a story for another time. So anyway, I’m wondering what the hell I’m still doing attending a school that allowed those murders to take place and commiserating with me is Chris Hynde, then an art student at the school, but feeling as restless as I. We are both hanging out in the “Pit,” a circular lounge that connects three dorms and which is used by all the hippies (ourselves included) as a hang-out. We’re bemoaning the fact that it’s as cold as the proverbial witch’s tit, and that there’s no good acid available, so we could escape the cold outside by taking a vacation inside our heads. And then Chris starts drawing. When she’s done, she smiles and hands it to me and I’m beaming. It’s a near-perfect R. Crumb style cartoon of Chris (skinny girl in the bikini), myself (skinny guy with hairy legs and long hair), and another friend of ours (zaftig girl), all trucking on some fantasy beach where there’s “enough sunshine for everyone!” For those of you not around in the late ‘60s, “sunshine” is a reference to a popular form of acid available on campuses back then. So, it’s a lovely play on words. Of course, I loved the drawing and kept it. I never thought of asking Chris to sign it at the time — she was just a Pit pal. Sure, she loved music, especially the cool stuff coming from across the ocean. But who knew she’d move there and go on to such tremendous success with the Pretenders some ten years later? She certainly never discussed that career ambition with me. Flash forward about 15 years and I’m backstage at a Pretenders show in L.A., meeting Chris for the first time in years. By that time, I’m about a decade into my own music industry career, writing for a trade publication called Radio COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

& Records (R&R). Chris and I say hi, shoot the breeze about old times, and I take out this old drawing and blow her mind. She wants a copy, which I give her. But you know, I still can’t ask her to sign the original — it would have just been way too fanboy a request considering how far back we went. So it’s unsigned, but it’s certainly drawn by her. You’ll just have to believe me. And, once in a while, when I want to remember those tough but vital times, I pull it out, put on a Pretenders album, and listen to Chrissie wail on those great tunes. She was and is a great talent — but who knew that, at one point, had she decided to go in another direction, she could have been a good sub for R. Crumb, drawing underground comix…? — J.G. 71

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