Alter Ego #44

PLUS:

PLUS:

SPECIAL ISSUE ON THE

JUSTICE SOCIETY, ALL-STAR SQUADRON, & INFINITY, INC.

No. 44 January 2005

FEATURING THIS ALL-STAR CAST: ORDWAY KUBERT • HASEN ANDERSON TOTH • NAYDEL ADLER • BUCKLER MACHLAN THOMAS PLUS:

$$

5.95

In the the USA USA In Art ©2005 DC Comics; Justice Society, All-Star Squadron & Infinity, Inc. TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

INFANTINO SEKOWSKY McFARLANE GRANDENETTI MESKIN • SWAN GONZALES • ANDRU PEDDY • HECK REINMAN • COWAN GIORDANO BERG • AMASH GILBERT • KANE BORING • THORNE FOX • NOVICK ROBINSON • OKSNER BOLTINOFF SPRANGER SIMON & KIRBY McCOY • BRUNNER PALAIS • PLATT BURESCH • BLUMMER FURNESS • LAZARE SCHELLY HAMERLINCK SWAYZE • DUCA SKEATES KURTZMAN • WOOD

& MORE!!

Vol. 3, No. 44 / January 2005 Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

™

Special Issue On The JSA, ALL-STAR SQUADRON, & INFINITY, INC.

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editors Emeritus

Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich

Production Assistant

Eric Nolen-Weathington

Cover Artist Jerry Ordway

Cover Colorist Tom Ziuko

And Special Thanks to: Arthur Adler Heidi Amash Murphy & Helen Anderson Bob Bailey Mike W. Barr John Benson Bill Black Dominic Bongo Jerry K. Boyd Mark Cannon Rich Buckler Mike Burkey Bob Cherry Shaun Clancy Gerry Conway Dale Crain Fred DeBoom Craig Delich Al Dellinges Mrs. Pat Donath Mrs. Al Duca Michael Dunne Mark Evanier Jennie-Lynn Falk Shane Foley Ed Furness Janet Gilbert Ron Goulart David Hajdu George Hagenauer Jennifer T. Hamerlinck R.C. Harvey Irwin Hasen Dave Herring Steve Herring

Tom Horvitz Al Jaffee Joe Kubert Henry J. Kujawa Gerald Lazare Mike & Eve Machlan Dan Makara Todd McFarlane Brian K. Morris Will Murray Jerry Ordway & Family Fred Patten Joe Petrilak Robert Pincombe Charlie Roberts Ethan Roberts Stephan Rowe Greg Sadowski Mark Shainblum Rick Shurgin Joe Simon Steve Skeates Robin Snyder Marc Svensson Marc Swayze Joel Thingvall Dann Thomas Alex Toth Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Delmo Walters, Jr. Tom Watkins Len Wein John Wilcox Tom Wimbish

This issue is dedicated to the memories of

Joe Buresch, Rudy Palais, & Kin Platt

Contents

Writer/Editorial: ...With Liberty And Justice Society For All . . . . . . . . 3 ÒAChance To Spread My WingsÓ.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Artist/legend Joe Kubert speaks with Jim Amash about drawing “Hawkman” in the 1940s.

ÒCartoonistsAre So Unaware Of Who They Are!Ó. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 Irwin Hasen on illustrating “Green Lantern,” “JSA,” et al., in the Golden Age.

(Excerpts From A) Postcard from the Edge–– Of California, That Is! . . 20 Alex Toth tells us why he has nothing to say about the JSA.

A ÒWillÓ Of The Wisp!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 Still more art from that long-lost mid-1940s “Justice Society” story!

An ÒAtomÓ Age Artisan. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 Arthur Adler on his short, sweet comics-writing career in the late 1940s.

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 A brief conversation with Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson.

[Contents continued on next page.]

Above: Along with this issue’s cover, Jerry Ordway was kind enough to send Ye Ed various other pieces of art he drew for DC during the 1980s, including this display drawing done for DC’s marketing department to promote the landmark series Crisis on Infinite Earths. The illo spotlights the Earth-Two Superman and Firebrand (of the All-Star Squadron), Obsidian and Fury (of Infinity, Inc.), and Blue Beetle (of the 1980s Justice League International). What can we say but—“Gorgeous!” [©2005 DC Comics.]

Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, N C 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344.

Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada.

FIRST PRINTING.

Title contents

2

[contÕd ]

ÒIJumped At The Opportunity!Ó. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 Rich Buckler talks to collaborator Roy Thomas about the All-Star Squadron.

ÒYouReally Put Me Through My Paces!Ó.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43 Jerry Ordway on working with Mike Machlan & Roy Thomas on All-Star Squadron.

From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52 Roy Thomas’ original 1982 proposal for the feature that became Infinity, Inc.

Tributes to Joe Buresch, Kin Platt, & Rudy Palais . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59 Comic Crypt: ÒILike Ike!ÓPart Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65 Michael T. Gilbert shows comic book artists saluting President Eisenhower in 1954.

Tales Calculated To Drive YouÉ Odd! Part Two. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71 Bill Schelly completes his interview with 1960s parodists Steve & Dave Herring.

re: [comments, correspondence, & corrections] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77 FCA (Fawcett Collector of America) #103. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Al Duca, Steve Skeates, Marc Swayze—& Louis LeBone!

About Our Cover: In 1983 Jerry Ordway was in the process of seguing from penciling All-Star Squadron to inking (or so he intended) the upcoming title Infinity, Inc. DC asked him to draw a two-page spread for its summer publication The DC Sampler, which was to be distributed free as a promotion piece—so Jerry produced this powerful panorama symbolizing events in All-Star Squadron #26 and that mag’s second Annual, which would guest-star the new heroes of Infinity, Inc. Ever since, two or three years ago, Jerry sent Alter Ego’s editor (and his 1983 collaborator) Roy Thomas a photocopy of that illustration, it was a foregone conclusion that it would become a wraparound cover of A/E! And now it has! [©2005 DC Comics.]

™

COMING IN FEBRUARY

#

45

THE SANDMAN COMETH! Special Issue on Golden Age Artists CREIG FLESSEL & BERT CHRISTMAN —and the Earliest Glory Days of DC Comics!

Art ©2005

an TM &

sel; Sandm

Cr eig Fles

• Sensational brand-new full-color Sandman cover by CREIG FLESSEL! • The Two Greatest Artists of the Gas-Mask SANDMAN! Fascinating interview with comics pioneer CREIG FLESSEL, conducted by JIM AMASH—plus an in-depth study of BERT CHRISTMAN, the original artist (and pr obable creator) of The Sandman,

by DAVE ARMSTRONG—with tons of rare art and vintage photos!

• Scarce and never-before-seen artwork by JACK COLE, JOE SHUSTER, FRED GUARDINEER, CHAD GROTHKOPF, BILL ELY, GILL FOX, OGDEN WHITNEY, et al.!

• Special Bonus! Author MICHAEL CHABON talks with ROY THOMAS about his Golden Age research for his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, with art by GIL KANE, WILL EISNER, JACK KIRBY, DICK AYERS, & MART NODELL! • Tributes to Golden Age artists IRV NOVICK & HARRY LAMPERT! • Plus—FCA with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, & OTTO BINDER’s lost “Jon Jarl” story— MICHAEL T. GILBERT on BERNIE WRIGHTSON & other young pros at Warren, circa 1970—BILL SCHELLY on comic fandom—ALEX TOTH on anything he feels like talking about—& MORE!!

C Comics

© 2005 D

Edited by ROY THOMAS

SUBSCRIBE NOW! Twelve Issues in the US: $60 Standar d, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewher e: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail).

NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE SUB, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF!

TwoMorrows. Bringing New Life To Comics Fandom.

TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • F AX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www .twomorrows.com

Title writer/editorial

3

...With Liberty And Justice Society For All!

W

year—that sometimes the “flip” covers confused browsers, who couldn’t recall if they’d already purchased an issue earlier: “Hmmm… the Dave Stevens Sheena cover on #21 looks familiar… but not the Irwin Hasen JSA re-creation on the other side. Do I have this issue at home, or not?”

e’re starting the New Year off with a few changes—which somehow seems the right time for them. And we’re not talking about this issue’s dedication largely to a single theme, that of the Golden Age Justice Society and its later spin-offs, the All-Star Squadron and Infinity, Inc., both conceptualized by Ye Editor in the 1980s.

So, for the foreseeable future, there’ll be just one cover… and we’ll have to go for the strongest image we can find that fits that month’s contents.

First off, although Alter Ego did have one previous wraparound cover (on Vol. 3, #5), you may have noticed that this issue is different.

Namely, you don’t have to turn it upside down to read half of it. For, as of this month, we are, with some reluctance, abandoning the concept of “flip” covers and sections, probably for good. Starting with #45, there’ll be just one A/E cover to ogle… a situation which has both its up side and its down side.

The other minor change starting with this issue is that it’s eight pages thinner than editions since #15. Sure, we’d like to slide by without mentioning this—but we figure A/E’s readers can count. We also figure that most of them will consider 100 pages (counting covers) to be an adequate bargain at $5.95—or $1 less, if they have a subscription. Actually, 100 pages was the page count for issues #2-14, and the 8-page increase was meant to be temporary. So much material has come streaming in from all sides, however, that I clung to the slightly greater length for three years, and John indulged me. But the time has finally come when we either had to increase the cover price, or drop a measly half-signature, and the latter seemed the preferable route. We hope you agree, and will continue to feel—as many of you have said you do—that Alter Ego is one of the best and most unique comics-related magazines in the market.

The “flip” nature of A/E was a holdover from the late ’90s, when A/E itself was merely a 16- to 40-page addendum to Jon B. Cooke’s original Comic Book Artist. It was Jon who suggested the “flip” bit, printing A/E upside Jerry OrdwayÕsNewsboy Legion/Guardian down to the main body of CBA. With a bit of pin-up from All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982). arm-twisting, I persuaded amiable publisher ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, John Morrow to continue the “flip” concept, courtesy of J.O. [©2004 DC Comics.] originally because I intended to devote half of each issue of A/E to the Golden Age, and half to the Silver. When that unwieldy plan fell by the wayside after an issue or two of this third volume, I kept the two-cover look because it freed me to Other than that, we can only repeat what we’ve mentioned once or use at least one cover each month which didn’t have to be overtly twice before: if you want to make certain that A/E continues its monthly “commercial.” We figured, for instance, that Dave Cockrum’s X-Men illo schedule, honoring the Golden and Silver and even Bronze Age creators of would be more likely to make retailers order copies of A/E #24 than the heroic comics, there are two things you can do to help: equally stand-out Mort Meskin drawing of Vigilante on that issue’s flip side. This was in no way an aesthetic judgment—for every reader who (1) Buy every issue—not just one that emphasizes DC, or Marvel, or decried the double-cover thing , there was another one who loved it—but some favored artist or writer or subject. For A/E to appear monthly, we that was John’s and my own imperfect response to what we deem the need to have a certain base sale each month, not just when some relatively marketplace to be. “hot” topic or creator is covered. Besides, I’ll be bluntly honest about it— if a comics fan can’t find $6 worth of value in each and every A/E, I don’t But it’s just proven too time-consuming and, in the end, expensive to think he or she has much real interest in the history of the field. What’s feature two covers every month. It’s not that sales of Alter Ego are the use of only reading about creators and creations you already know declining—but they’ve stayed relatively flat since the aftermath of 9-11-01, you like? and the economic realities finally caught up with us. Besides, John has this theory—and who am I to say he’s wrong, since he and Eric Nolen(2) Please tell other folks about Alter Ego. It’s kinda depressing each Weathington hawk back issues of A/E at numerous comicons every month to find out that some dyed-in-the-wool fan of the Golden and Silver Ages hasn’t even been aware of Alter Ego’s first 40-plus issues.

One comics convention organizer only saw the mag for the first time as Monthly! The Original First-Person History– this issue was in preparation—and instantly bought an ad. It goes without saying that selling an extra ad or two helps assure that A/E will either be published by Robin Snyder in your mailbox, or on the racks or under the counter at your friendly neighborhood comics shop, each and every month.

Okay, end of hard-sell. Don’t worry—Alter Ego is definitely not on its last legs—far from it! In fact, it would take only a relatively few additional copies sold each month to make certain that it continues to come your way for years to come. We don’t want in any way to denigrate those of you who support it by buying most issues, or even just the occasional one—but if you can see your way clear to do a bit more, we’ll all benefit!

Write to: Robin Snyder, 3745 Canterbury Lane #81, Bellingham, WA 98225-1186

Bestest,

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part one

“A Chance To Spread My Wings” Artist & Legend JOE KUBERT Talks About Drawing ÒHawkmanÓ In The 1940s Interview Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

I

NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: While “Hawkman” wasn’t the first feature Joe Kubert drew in the Golden Age of Comics, his stint on that character is his most memorable of the time period. Hawkman was also a leading hero in “The Justice Society of America” in All-Star Comics, and was popular enough to star on every second cover of Flash Comics. Hawkman went through a few changes in the late 1940s, and here now is Joe to tell us about those changes and what it was like to draw the Winged Wonder, under the tutelage of two editorial legends—first Shelly Mayer, and later Julius Schwartz. —Jim. JIM AMASH: When Shelly Mayer gave you a “Wildcat” story while “Hawkman” was your regular assignment, would he tell you why?

JOE KUBERT: I was very young at the time, and had complete trust in the fact that Shelly felt that I could handle any jobs that he gave me. I looked forward to doing them. There was nothing special about drawing “Wildcat” or any of the other features. Even when I was doing “Hawkman,” the character itself was really meaningless to me, Joe Kubert graciously autographing a comic at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention at White Plains, NY, in 2000Ñflanked by ÒHawkmanÓ splashes heÕd done for Flash Comics more than a half century earlier! At left is his first, from Flash #62 (Feb. 1945)Ñabove, the one for the final issue (#104, Feb. 1949). Of course, even earlier in 1944, heÕddrawn the ÒDr. FateÓ chapter in All-Star Comics #21, and his very first ÒHawkmanÓ story in The Big All-American Comic Book. The former was reprinted in All Star Comics Archives, Vol. 5, the latter in the just-published DC Comics Rarities Archives, Vol. 1. Thanks to Joe Petrilak for the photoÑand to Kubertfan Al Dellinges for the two Flash Comics pages. Incidentally, Al pointed out years ago that an under-20 and probably nervous Joe Kubert left a letter out of the heroÕs partly-obscured logo! [Hawkman art ©2005 DC Comics.]

except that it gave me an opportunity to draw comic books and an occasional cover.

Whenever I brought in a job (which I did on an erratic schedule, because I was going to school at the time and was terrible with deadlines), Shelly would always have another job waiting for me, even though I didn’t quite meet the deadlines that he set.

JA: What do you think Shelly saw in you?

KUBERT: Probably the same thing he saw in guys like Carmine Infantino and Alex Toth: we were young kids, and Shelly was an incredibly sensitive person who recognized in others those things that he felt himself. He recognized in me and the other guys a love for what we wanted to do. We expressed that love with the effort that we put into the work that we did. Sure, we were doing lousy, terrible stuff, but he saw potential in the fact that we put every effort into it. Since he felt the same way about the work, he encouraged us. That was something for which we were all grateful.

JA: Irwin Hasen told me that Shelly would sometimes throw the pages up in the air, and things like that.

ÒAChance To Spread My WingsÓ

5

KUBERT: I was there once when that happened. That was because Shelly and Irwin were such good friends. Shelly was a little bit of a nut, anyhow. He was a nice guy, a wonderful guy, but he could do some crazy things.

JA: Did he ever throw your pages up in the air or stomp on them?

KUBERT: No, because I would have thrown him right out the window. I wasn’t the sort of person who’d appreciate that kind of treatment, so Shelly never did that sort of thing with me.

JA: Alex Toth told me Shelly would always encourage him to write and letter his stories, as well. Did he encourage you to do the same thing?

KUBERT: Definitely, and I lettered most of my stuff at the beginning. I got lettering lessons from Sol Harrison, who was in the production department at that time, and later became the president and publisher of DC. Shelly felt that it was important for a guy getting into the business to know as much about it as he possibly could. He even encouraged us to go down to the engravers (which was just across the street) to see what they did with our work, so that we’d have a better sense of what would happen before the stuff was published. There were incredible changes between what we’d see on the originals and what we’d eventually see in print. The kind of printing that was being used at the time involved metal plates that had to be etched with acids. The colors were basic, and the registration was so far off that it was ridiculous. It was important to know what the work was going to look like when it was printed, and to understand the problems and vicissitudes that the guys who worked on our stuff went through, so that we would have a fighting chance to make our work legible.

JA: People like Gardner Fox, John Broome, and Robert Kanigher were writing your stories. Did you have a favorite writer?

KUBERT: No, it didn’t make any difference at all. I had no idea who the hell the writer was.

I’d get the script in typed form, and it was years before I actually met any of the writers. We would only meet if we happened to come up to the office at the same time. Other than that, most of the artists never even met the writers.

The writing

All-American Comics editor Sheldon Mayer seems (thanks to our clever juxtaposition) to be looking approvingly at the splash page of the ÒWildcatÓ story Joe drew for Sensation Comics #66 (June 1947). ReproÕd from a black-&-white Australian reprint comic, with thanks to Shane Foley. The pic of Shelly M. is a detail from a 1942 photo printed in Wonder Woman #2. [©2005 DC Comics.]

was the editor’s bailiwick, and what was given to the artist was the result of the efforts between the editor and the writer. Shelly never really encouraged us to write; we had enough trouble learning how to draw. [laughs] JA: When you did a story for him, you wouldn’t letter or ink until the pencils were approved, right?

KUBERT: Right. First we’d do full pencils, and we’d show them to Shelly. Shelly would then go through the script and pencils, and tell us where he felt corrections should be made. Then we would letter and ink.

Shelly requested changes very infrequently, which was really great.

There were scheduling deadlines to be met, so instead of haunting us with changes on stuff that was already done, Shelly was more likely to tell us to watch out for those mistakes on the next jobs we would do.

From almost the beginning of Flash Comics, Hawkman tended to be featured on half its covers. HereÕsKubertÕsthird coverÑfor #67 (Oct.-Nov. 1945), during a period when the comic dropped to bimonthly status for a year, and the AllAmerican group had apparently split off from National/DC and adopted its own similar logo. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]

What sticks out in my mind was his comment about drawing kids: you don’t draw a kid with the same expressions as an adult. A kid is a kid, and he looks like a kid. The proportions are different, the looks are different, and the expressions are different. He pushed that across to me so that the characters I’d draw would be as credible as possible.

JA: Did he encourage you to build reference and swipe files, or to study certain artists?

6

Joe Kubert Talks About Drawing ÒHawkmanÓ In The 1940s

KUBERT: Not to study certain artists, but to have reference files, which were critical. It’s still critical today; every artist I know— including me—uses a reference file. Now, of course, we resort to the computer, which has everything on any kind of subject at a moment’s notice. But before that, we had to clip out the stuff and categorize it, so that when we needed a particular subject—a car, an animal, whatever it might be—we could turn to our reference file and use it.

JA: On the Hawkman covers you did for Flash Comics, was there a separate conference when you’d show cover roughs to Shelly? How did that work?

JA: When you started to work on “Hawkman,” how familiar were you with the character?

KUBERT: Not at all. I was introduced to the character when I went up to the AllAmerican offices at 225 Lafayette Street and they asked me to draw him. I may have been aware of the character in a passing manner, but it was never something that stuck in my mind.

Shelly Moldoff was doing the strip before I did, and he had patterned his style after Hal Foster or Alex Raymond. I was not even asked to follow his style; Shelly Mayer just gave some books to me and said, “Here, draw it.”

JA: Don’t you think that KUBERT: Usually he would Hawkman visually suggest a particular scene that Joe almost certainly drew this splash for Flash Comics #67 months before he did its cover. descended from the took place in the story, and How can we tell? As covered on the next page (and in The All-Star Companion, Vol. 1), the sequence in Alex Raymond’s just tell me to draw wings on HawkmanÕsmask are the clue, Sherlock. TheyÕremuch bigger and wider-flaring Flash Gordon Sunday strips on the cover than on this splash, where they still more closely resemble the 1940-44 something to take-off on that. in which Flash fights the version by artist Sheldon ÒShellyÓ Moldoff. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Of course, I had to incorHawkmen of Mongo? porate the title of the book and any blurbs that might accompany it. I don’t remember any real KUBERT: Well, it seems reasonable that Hawkman was a take-off from conferences, though. Once Shelly approved the initial penciled idea, it those characters, but I thought it was a complete departure from that. I was up to me to finish it. I don’t recall him ever having me change or vividly remember the Flash Gordon sequence. I loved that strip; I alter any of the covers I brought in. I don’t think I submitted my own remember getting the Big Little Books and poring over those things. But cover ideas, but I don’t think that I went directly with what Shelly I never related one to the other. suggested, either. We would discuss it, but then the final decision would unquestionably be Shelly’s. I think those were probably the first covers I JA: When you went into Shelly’s office, did you just walk in? ever did.

KUBERT: Well, I’m sure there was a receptionist outside, and I JA: It sounds to me as if the covers were drawn after the stories were remember that at All-American, the offices were separated by glass done. walls. They were not partitioned; they were enclosed offices. I would tell the receptionist I was there, and if I remember correctly, I was usually KUBERT: I don’t recall exactly, Jim, but I believe they were. ushered right in; there was no waiting or anything. That was true of all of us. It’s not as if there was such an onrush of people trying to get in JA: That’s interesting, because a lot of companies did their covers that there was a waiting line. before the stories.

KUBERT: That’s right. I remember times when Kanigher would jump off from a cover idea and go write a story.

JA: Did you feel as if Shelly was showing his respect for you by letting you do Hawkman covers for Flash Comics?

KUBERT: I’m not sure, but I doubt if that’s true. I don’t know why Shelly gave me the covers. Maybe he was giving me a chance to spread my wings a bit. Maybe it was because there was a deadline, and he couldn’t get the guy who was supposed to do the cover. Chances are that I did the covers because I was the regular feature artist.

I tried to make a special effort when I did them. I realized their importance: they were on the outside of the magazine rather than the inside, and when they were displayed in a store or exhibited anyplace, that’s what you would see. I was impressed by that, and I tried my best when I did those covers. I don’t really remember if I got a higher rate for the cover art, but I don’t think I did.

During the years I was drawing “Hawkman,” I would drive into the city, and I was able to park downstairs and leave one of my family sitting in the car, because it didn’t take me that long to run up and down and take care of everything.

JA: You were a young guy at the time. What did your parents think about all this?

KUBERT: My parents were born in Europe, and the idea of anybody being able to make a livelihood by drawing these little crazy pictures was a little bit beyond them; they couldn’t believe it. I drew pictures all the time as a kid—my father was a butcher, and I would draw on the paper bags—and they couldn’t imagine that what I was doing could eventually generate an income.

I have four sisters, and before any of us married, moved out of the house, or took on our own personal responsibilities, all the money that was being made went to the Treasurer: my mother. When anybody needed any money, they would come to the Treasurer. It was interesting

ÒAChance To Spread My WingsÓ to the Treasurer that I was bringing in perhaps more than my father was making as a butcher. They encouraged me to draw before that, too, even though they never dreamed that I’d be able to make a living at it.

I don’t think they were really aware that I was succeeding, but they were pleased that I was able to make a living and bring some money into the house. In terms of my accomplishment as an artist, I think they were always proud that I could draw.

JA: When did you start working in a studio instead of at home?

KUBERT: I lived at home until I joined the Army in 1950, but in the ’40s I had this studio up at Park Avenue. I know that sounds great, but it was this little, old, skinny building among all the beautiful buildings. It had a little elevator, and if you crowded two people into it, you weren’t sure you were going to make it upstairs. [laughter] Photographer Brad Smith rented the place, and we sublet a room.

JA: Although you drew “Hawkman” chapters and one “Doctor Fate” for the Justice Society stories in AllStar, you never drew the whole team, right?

KUBERT: Right, but it didn’t make a particle of difference to me.

I was just interested in the next story I might be getting, and in trying to do the best job I could.

JA: Did DC supply your paper?

KUBERT: Yes. That was one of the big benefits of working for DC: not having to go out and buy paper—which was expensive at the time—and getting the quality of paper the other guys were using, which you can’t even buy anymore.

JA: In those days, did you try to get your original art back?

7

KUBERT: I think I patterned the wings after Shelly Moldoff’s, to begin with. Nobody asked me to do the costume differently, and I changed very little about it, although our drawing styles were different. Then, little by little, I began to make the wings look more birdlike. I also tinkered a little bit with the headgear.

JA: So it was a matter of artistic temperament rather than boredom?

KUBERT: Pretty much so. Later, Julie Schwartz suggested that we change the mask and costume a little bit to create more interest in the character. Up to that point, though, any changes that took place were at my whim.

JA: The change you’re talking about is the one in the ’40s when you got rid of the hawk mask and gave him a yellow pull-over mask with a hawk emblem on it, right?

KUBERT: Yeah. There were several different changes.

JA: Although you weren’t involved in the coloring of the stories that you did for Shelly Mayer, did he encourage you to think about color?

KUBERT: Absolutely. I had conversations with Sol Harrison, Eddie Eisenberg, and possibly Jack Adler.

HereÕsa progression of They were doing color Hawkman heads, to demonstrate plates for comic books how Joe slowly evolved the look. (Clockwise and working on color from above:) (a) Head by Sheldon Moldoff from separations for Hal Flash Comics #40 (April 1943)É (b) KubertÕsfirst Hawkman story, Big All-American Comic Book (1944)É (c) Foster’s Prince another head from his Flash debut in #62 (Feb. Õ45)É (d) the Valiant at the same helmet-wings are beginning to flare a bit by Flash #66 (Aug.time. They spent a Sept. Õ45)É (e) they reach their most dramatic form, in Ye hell of a lot more time EditorÕsview, in Flash #73 (July Õ46)É (f) they get maybe a wee on Prince Valiant, and bit too wild by #75 (Sept. Õ46)É (g) in Flash #88 (Oct. Õ47), really loved what they suddenly the head-wings are more subduedÑand the mask is were doing. Talking with abruptly missing a bottom beak!É (h) the ÒbeakÓ shape abruptly those guys really gave vanishes completely in the very next issue, #89 (Nov. Õ47),though insight about color. I the #88 look will pop up again in an occasional storyÉ and (i) both the head-wings and hawk-like helmet are dropped in sometimes wrote color favor of a simple cowl with a hawk-sigil, as of Flash Comics notes on the pages. I #98 (Aug. Õ48).This was probably a decision made by don’t know how new full-editor Julius Schwartz, who succeeded much good they did; Shelly Mayer when he resigned in 1947-48. none of the artists who Thanks to Al Dellinges for the Kubert added color notes knew samples. [©2005 DC Comics.] whether they’d be followed, or even looked at.

We hoped that somebody would pay attention, though.

KUBERT: No, and I think that was true of 99 and 9/10 % of the people working back then. The artwork was destroyed by most publishers because they felt that it wasn’t worth the space it would take up in a warehouse. If an artist had wanted his work back, he could have gotten it. However, most of us felt that the publishers paid us for the work that we’d done, and that it now belonged to them. We were perfectly satisfied with that.

JA: If I were 16 or 17 years old and drawing comics, I think if I’d done something I really liked, I’d want examples of it to keep.

JA: Once the books were on the stands, how closely did you examine your work in print?

KUBERT: Sometimes I didn’t want to look at it at all, because the color registration was so far off, and sometimes the black plates turned out to be gray. It really hurt to look at the printed results.

JA: Were you making mental notes about what printed well, what reduced well, and what didn’t?

KUBERT: Well, you would if you felt that it was yours, but there was a tacit understanding that when the guy paid you for the work, the work was his. How could you ask him to give back something that he had just bought from you? We didn’t even think of it.

KUBERT: Yeah, but to say that it wasn’t a thrill to see your stuff in print would have been a bald lie. Every one of us looked forward to seeing the stuff in print, knowing that it was actually being published and going all over the United States. It was always a thrill that other people were actually seeing the stuff.

JA: Let’s discuss how you drew Hawkman’s wings.

JA: Would you say that even though you were still learning the craft,

8

Joe Kubert Talks About Drawing ÒHawkmanÓ In The 1940s

your work was more instinctive in those days?

KUBERT: I would say so. I looked at other people’s work to see how they did it, and to try to see how it would apply to my own work.

Almost every artist in my time would use Milton Caniff, Harold Foster, or Alex Raymond. For spotting blacks, Caniff was the guy, and we’d try to analyze what he was doing. It was incredible how much I didn’t know as a kid, and Caniff’s stuff was an incredible learning tool for me. I tried to apply what I could see and understand in his work to what I was doing.

JA: Shelly was 10 years older than you, but he treated you as an equal, didn’t he?

KUBERT: Oh yeah. As a matter of fact, we used to go out together.

One time Lee Elias, Irwin Hasen, Shelly, and I went up to a dude ranch for a weekend. I’d never been to one, and had never been on a horse before. Maybe we just went up there because I had a car.

Eisenberg and Sol Harrison were taking time out to talk to you.

That seems slightly unusual, at least in today’s world.

KUBERT: I’ve never found anybody in the business who ever turned his back on me, or refused to help me. They didn’t do it because I asked for help, but because they wanted to help a guy who was trying to do his stuff.

JA: Was Shelly the type to compliment you on your work?

KUBERT: Oh, yeah. He used his compliments to add encouragement for the next effort I might make.

He was a good teacher. I tell everybody here at the school that I’m not an educator, not a teacher. I just show you what I do, and tell you how I go about it, and if you want to follow what I’m doing, fine. If you don’t want to do it, you’re in the wrong place.

JA: When Shelly criticized your work, did he spend more time on storytelling than on draftsmanship?

KUBERT: Absolutely. He would My relationship with Shelly was In 1946 the Wheaties people commissioned several miniature (6H" x 8G", remark if my proportions were always eye-to-eye. He had a 32-page) comics, to be given away in packages of their cereal. One of these wrong or if the drawing was really wonderful ability to talk straight at was an all-new edition of Flash Comics, which included a 6H-page incorrect, but he was much more you and straight to you, and there ÒHawkmanÓ story drawn by Kubert. HereÕspage 3, in which the Hawks interested in the storytelling. He pursue a new foe called The Raven. [©2005 DC Comics.] was never any kind of underplay at would stress what the characters all. I always appreciated that he was should look like. A kid should look like a kid; an adult should look like a straight and honest guy, as was Julie. They were the only kind of an adult, and an old person should look, walk, and sit like an old person. people I could deal with.

All of those things are part of dramatizing the story.

JA: You considered Shelly to be a mentor. Were you in awe of him?

In regard to how he handled his artists, Shelly’s accomplishment was teaching all of us to communicate what we were doing pictorially to the KUBERT: Not at all. The relationship between Shelly and Irwin was readers. Communication was what it was all about. You could dramatize great—they had been very good, dear friends for years and years—but the hell out of it, and work in any kind of style. Take a look at Peanuts, when I saw Shelly look at Irwin’s pages and throw them across the room, I was absolutely astounded. I wondered how Irwin could stand for example: Charles Schulz was a wonderful storyteller on any number by and let a guy do something like that. I couldn’t have stood for of different levels. A kid, a teenager, and an adult can read his stuff, and anything like that, and I think Shelly realized it. get different kinds of pleasures out of the same simple drawing. That’s an art, and that’s what Shelly was stressing all the time.

That understanding made for a good relationship between us. I don’t like to be treated in a way that I wouldn’t treat somebody else, and JA: Did you feel like you were one of his more important artists?

Shelly understood that. I wasn’t thanking him all the time, but I think he KUBERT: Never. I felt that I knew Shelly pretty well, and I felt good knew that I appreciated what he was doing for me. He loved what he working with him, but I never felt any favoritism. Overall, I think he was doing, and saw that I loved what I was doing, so he helped me in was the same with Carmine, Frank Giacoia, Alex, Irwin, Lee Elias, and any way he could. Shelly would correct my storytelling, the develmost of the other guys. opment of characters, facial expressions, and things like that.

JA: So he treated the people who worked for him not as subordinates, but according to their personalities?

JA: Did you have much interaction with Carmine, Frank, Alex, and Irwin at the time?

KUBERT: I think most of us do.

KUBERT: It has been my experience that people who allow themselves to be treated a certain way perhaps deserve it.

KUBERT: I did with Carmine. As a matter of fact, Carmine was one of the ushers at my wedding. Carmine, Frank, and I used to socialize. We took a nice trip to Canada for a long weekend one time that turned into a longer weekend than we expected because we got caught in a snowstorm. [laughs] But they were my age. Most of the other guys were a little older than we were, and we didn’t socialize with them as much.

JA: Maybe so. I find it really fascinating that busy guys like Eddie

JA: Did you guys talk about comics very often when you were away

JA: I’ve known a couple of people who haven’t.

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from work?

KUBERT: We talked about other things.

When I had the office on Park Avenue, though, there were a whole bunch of guys with studios down there because the rents were practically nothing, and we’d look at each others’ work and talk about it. We’d also talk about the great guys in the business at that time: “Gee, did you see this guy’s stuff? Look at how Lou Fine did that.” We were studying and learning all the time.

JA: When you were working on “Hawkman,” did you take pride in having a regular feature, as opposed to doing routine filler stories?

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KUBERT: It didn’t matter at all. A regular feature just meant steadier work.

JA: So you didn’t have any proprietary feelings toward the character?

KUBERT: Not proprietary, but I’ve felt a definite responsibility at every job that I’ve taken. I’ve been accused several times of being a “war artist.” But it’s just a matter of serendipity; the stuff comes along, and I do it. The same thing applies to any feature that I’ve done: I try to do the best work I know how, and in doing that, I try to inject as much of myself into the work as I can. I try to become involved in it, in order to do the best job that I can. It’s not because I have a love for any particular kind of job, but because I’m doing my best. ad designed by Tell-A-Graphics: 1-973-442-0100

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pressure compels you to make decisions quickly. Some of those decisions will be wrong, but if you keep on working at the same rate, and you spend the proper time and effort, you’ll go further than you ever dreamed you could. Yeah, you’ll louse up some things, but because you’ve made quick decisions, and sometimes taken chances, it works out right. Working under pressure and getting stuff out quickly has more benefits than most people realize.

JA: How did you take the news when Shelly Mayer stepped down as editor?

KUBERT: I was kind-of shocked, but not overly surprised once his reasons for stepping down were explained to me. Shelly wanted to be a cartoonist, and he was a wonderful cartoonist. Scribbly was really autobiographical, beautiful stuff.

He had been drafted into becoming an editor at AllAmerican; and whoever was running the business at the time had made a terrific choice. When DC bought out AllAmerican Comics, Shelly came along with the whole business. A couple of years later, though, he decided that he didn’t want to be editor anymore. He could have had anything he wanted at that point; he could have been editor of all the stuff that DC was putting out. Instead, he stepped away to become a cartoonist.

JA: Do you have a favorite memory of Shelly?

JA: Even today when you’re working, how often will you redo something that you’ve already started?

KUBERT: Shelly loved the fact that he had worked with horses. He used to call himself a New Jersey cowboy, because he used to work at the ranches up around north Jersey.

KUBERT: Quite often. I’m still working every day—penciling, inking, writing, coloring, and everything else I have to do—and very often, I finish the work and let it sit and percolate for a couple of days. Then I come back to it with a fresh eye and make whatever changes I think are necessary. That pause in time gives you a new perspective on the stuff. I think every artist should do that. We work so close to what we’re doing that we often can’t see the forest for the trees.

JA: Julie Schwartz took over after Shelly left. What was the difference between working for Shelly and working for Julie?

JA: When you were doing “Hawkman” in the ’40s, you didn’t have the luxury of doing that, did you?

KUBERT: None whatsoever. My relationships with Julie, Bob Kanigher,

KUBERT: No, and neither did most of the other guys. That can be a blessing as well as a detriment, though. Doing a lot of work under

9

This house ad perfectly illustrates the work of both Joe Kubert and Carmine Infantino, since Joe drew the cover (and the ÒHawkmanÓ story inside), while Carmine penciled both the ÒFlashÓ and ÒBlack CanaryÓ tales. This ad appeared in DC Comics dated April 1948. [©2005 DC Comics.]

10

Joe Kubert Talks About Drawing ÒHawkmanÓ In The 1940s

and Shelly were always great.

JA: Carmine Infantino told me that Julie Schwartz wasn’t one to give out praise too often.

KUBERT: Julie was one of the nicest guys you could ever come across, and absolutely honest. He adopted an office attitude, though: “I’m the gruff guy. I’m not going to give you any compliments. If you want a compliment, you’re not going to get it from me.” Yet, personally, he was so unlike that. If you wanted to borrow money, he was the easiest touch in the world. He was as soft as mush. He was a very nice, open-hearted guy who put up a facade of not caring about anything.

JA: This is off the subject, but tell me about inking Mort Meskin.

KUBERT: I had met Mort when he was working on staff at MLJ, and I hadn’t started working yet. That’s also where I met Bob Montana, who had just started “Archie” back in those days. I was living in Brooklyn, and had come up to show my stuff. When you walked into the office, there was a three-foot-tall rail around the editorial area, and you could see right into the bullpen. To the left, there were windows looking out onto Canal Street, and five or six artists had their tables lined up against the windows. Harry Shorten, who was a writer then rather than an editor, allowed me to come into the bullpen and show my work to the artists. Mort Meskin was one of those guys.

Years later, I went up to DC, and they wanted me to ink Mort’s stuff.

I saw Mort once in the bullpen at DC, but there was no heavy discussion. I was inking Jack Kirby’s pencils too, and I never even met or saw Jack at the time. So with either one of them, it was just a matter of getting the pencils, taking them home, and inking them.

This ÒVigilanteÓ splash, penciled by Mort Meskin and inked by young Joe Kubert, appeared in Action Comics #69 (Feb. 1944), and was reprinted in Wanted #3 (Nov. 1972). Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2004 DC Comics.]

I remember asking Mort if there was anything he was looking for in the inks. I was so young and innocent that seeing his pencils—which were just beautiful—didn’t faze me at all, or inspire any awe or trepidation. His pencils were not as much linear as they were tonal. He started his pages out like an artist: he would rub graphite over the whole page, then do his line work in pencil, then shadow, and then pick out his lights with a kneaded eraser.

There wasn’t a hell of a lot of line work to follow with the inking, so I had to figure out how to substitute rendered lines for the gray areas he’d put down. I asked him what he thought I should be doing with it, and he just said, “Handle it any way you see fit.” That was his advice to me. He let me make my own mistakes and learn from them, which was great. He was very kind. Mort was a terrific guy.

It was an opportunity to learn, because his art, his compositions, his storytelling, his anatomy, and his foreshortening—which was really the thing that impressed me—were absolutely incredible.

JA: Today, you consider a page to be a piece of art. No matter how many panels are in there, you’re still composing a balanced piece of art. [Joe agrees.] Were you thinking that way back then?

To young readers, it mustÕveseemed in the late 1940s as if DC and other comics companies had thrown their super-heroes to the lionsÑjust as Joe Kubert and the writer of this story from Flash Comics #97 (July Õ48)did. But Hawkman and Hawkgirl would be back in a new incarnation beginning in the 1960sÑwith Joe as the original artist! Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]

KUBERT: Not at all. I was looking at it as a drawing that I was attempting to accomplish, and trying to do it in a proper way. I’ve always felt that the most important part of what we do is telling the story, and the drawing is secondary to that. I think that young artists today have so much stuff to work with—the computers, the printing, the color—that they’re turning out some beautiful artwork that you can’t read. All we’re trying to do is tell a story with pictures, and if the story becomes obfuscated and difficult to read, then we’re not doing our job.

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part two

11

“Cartoonists Are So Unaware Of Who They Are!” IRWIN HASEN On Drawing ÒGreenLantern,ÓÒJSA,Ó Et Al., In The Golden Age Interview Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

I

NTERVIEWER’S NOTE: It’s been my good fortune to spend time with Irwin Hasen at comic book conventions. This past year, we sat next to each other at Heroes Con in Charlotte, NC, and while I did most of the talking, Irwin—as always—entertained me with stories about people he had known in comics. I realized Irwin Hasen enjoying himself at the I wanted to get some of All Time Classic New York Comics that information in print, Convention in 2000Ñpages from his preWWII sting as a ÒGreen LanternÓ artist. and happily, Irwin agreed At right is his splash from All-American to this interview, which Comics #47 (Feb. 1943). Thanks to was meant to complement Joel Thingvall for the photocopy of the Roy Thomas’ interview original art. [GL art ©2005 DC Comics.] with him, which appeared in the first issue of the current volume of Alter Ego. As many of you know, Irwin’s the life of every convention he attends. And he places good, affordable prices on the work he sells, too—so tell Irwin that Alter Ego sent you the next time you see him. Thanks, Irwin, for a fun and informative chat. —Jim.

JIM AMASH: You mentioned Bert Whitman to me at the Heroes Convention this past June. What can you tell me about him?

IRWIN HASEN: Bert Whitman was a top editorial cartoonist at a Detroit newspaper in the 1930s. He left the Midwest and came to New York, where he became sort of an entrepreneur, working for the publisher of The Green Hornet. I met him during that time. After that, he did a comic strip called Debbie Dean for The New York Post. He’s the one who arranged to have me do The Goldbergs. Jerry Robinson was supposed to do it first, but there was an altercation over salary between Jerry and the executive editor. Jerry just sort-of conked out and Bert called me.

I had just gotten out of the Army, and it was a wonderful opportunity for me. I worked there in the newspaper office for one of the happiest years of my life. Just like in the movies—The Front Page, and all that. I worked there at a drawing board, and Stanley Kaufman wrote the strip, though I never met him. He later became a music editor or something like that. I met some wonderful people there like Victor Riesel, the labor editor, who was blinded by gangsters.

Bert Whitman was a flamboyant guy. He was 6'4", very dapper, kindof a playboy type. He was entrepreneur-ish; he wasn’t really a cartoonist as we know cartoonists. He has since died, by the way. I never saw enough of his editorial stuff to comment on it. Debbie Dean just briefly had its star.

Bert had been a polo player in Detroit. I visited him at his house in Long Island, and I saw his polo mallet in the corner. I said, “Gee, Bert, I’d love to have that for my apartment; I just moved in.” So he said, “Yeah okay, you can have it; I don’t need it.” About five years later, he was moving out to Stockton, California, to become an editorial cartoonist, and Bert called me up and said, “Look, I’m moving out there.

Could you mail me that mallet?” So I had to go to the Daily News syndicate, and have the mailroom guys wrap up his polo mallet and mail it to him. That was ridiculous... genuinely stupid on his part... not nice.

I worked in his office, doing “Cat-Man” at the time [1940]. I was told

by Julie Schwartz that I was the first one to draw “Cat-Man.” I don’t remember that, but if Julie said so, it had to be right.

JA: You started at the Chesler shop. What do you remember about Harry Chesler?

12

Irwin Hasen On Drawing ÒGreenLantern,ÓÒJSA,Ó Etc., In The Golden Age Gleason Publications, and he started to make a lot of money. I can remember when Charlie bought himself a Jaguar, a white one, and he showed it to all of us. It was adorable. He opened up the trunk and showed us the elegant toolbox that came with it. [laughs] JA: Why did he have holes in his sweater?

HASEN: He was that kind of guy. He was probably broke. He was a “huh-huh-huh” kind of a guy. You know, “huh-huh-huh.”

JA: What do you remember about Mort Meskin and Irv Novick?

Bert Whitman Strikes Twice!

(Above:) These final two panels from WhitmanÕsfirst Debbie Dean, Career Girl newspaper dailyÑdated Jan. 11, 1942Ñ follow ones explaining that ÒDebbie Dean, heiress to a fabulous fortune, tires of the life of a debutante,Ó so she becomes a reporter. This art was reprinted in Coulton WaughÕsseminal 1947 book on comic strips, The Comics.

(Right:) Oddly, though Irwin Hasen drew the very first ÒCat-ManÓ story in HolyokeÕsCrash Comics #4, Whitman drew the first cover featuring Cat-Man, on Crash #5 (Nov. 1940). [Debbie Dean art ©2005 The New York Post Syndicate or its successors in interest; Crash art ©2005 the respecive copyright holders.]

Novick and his wife and I got to be very friendly. He was a grade-A carpenter; he built his house with his own hands. He was a great artist, one of the best. He always smoked a pipe.

HASEN: He was a very interesting kind of a man. He had offices like a schoolroom: behind each oldfashioned desk was a cartoonist in his 20s, and he treated them as if they were students. He was the headmaster, with a felt hat, a cigar in his mouth, and a vest. He’d walk around the guys like they were children in his classroom. They were doing the odds and ends of his workshop. He farmed out work. I did single pages and sports cartoons for him—fillers. The others—Charlie Biro, Mort Meskin, Irv Novick—they all sat like children in a classroom.

I worked as a staffer in his building from 1939 to 1940. He used to come up to everybody at the end of the week and say, “How little do you need to live on?” [laughter] And you looked at him as if he was joking, but he wasn’t! But he was all right. He was a man of his time. He was sort of a third-rate entrepreneur in a run-down building on East 23rd Street, with a classroom.

Charlie Biro was a big, lovable guy in a red sweater with holes at the elbows, sitting there in the classroom. Then he went on to work with Bob Wood at Lev

HASEN: Mort and I were very close. He was very shy; he stuttered. He was a low-key, shy man, very sensitive, and a wonderful artist. His eyes would blink when he stuttered. You knew he was going to be in bad shape later in his life.

You just had that feeling. We didn’t talk too much, but Mort was a sweetheart. My whole life has been about making people laugh. I don’t know why, but that was my schtick in life, and I always loved to make Mort laugh.

JA: How many people were working in the Chesler shop?

HASEN: About twenty people. Winsor McCay’s son Bob was also there. He was a quiet guy, skinny and dark-skinned. Joe Kubert was Chesler’s mascot. He loved Joe and Joe loved him. It was like a father-son relationship. But I don’t think I met Joe until I was working for DC. We sat there quietly, getting our work done. That’s all. There was no fooling around. I don’t remember how much I was paid... maybe it was $8 a page. We were paid in cash.

JA: Why did you leave Chesler?

HASEN: I went up to DC because an uncle of mine knew Jack Liebowitz, who was then an accountant for Harry Donenfeld at

When editor Julius Schwartz reminded Irwin Hasen that he was the first artist to draw ÒCat-Man,Ó he was no doubt actually referring to ÒWildcat,Ó which Irwin initiated later in DC/AAÕsSensation Comics #1 (Jan. 1942). The rare drawing at left was done (and even colored!) by Irwin in 1941 for fellow artist Jon Chester (ÒChetÓ) Kozlak, who drew ÒWildcatÓ a couple of years later. A copy was sent to us by Hasen agent (and friend) Dan Makara.

But Julie was right, albeit by accident! Irwin also drew the first ÒCat-ManÓ storyÑfor Crash Comics #4 (Sept. 1940). As per the splash and other panel above, the Holyoke Cat-Man was originally a cross between Batman and Tarzan. This origin tale was reprinted in AC ComicsÕCat-Man Ashcan Edition No. 2 (1996); check out ACÕsad elsewhere in this issue. [Wildcat art ©2005 Irwin Hasen; Wildcat TM & ©2005 DC Comics; restored ÒCat-ManÓ art ©2005 AC Comics.]

ÒCartoonistsAre So Unaware Of Who They Are!Ó

13

DC, which was then called National. My uncle told me to bring my samples up. Liebowitz looked at my samples, and he didn’t know his ass from his elbow, because he was an accountant. But he said, “Go down to 225 Lafayette Street, and meet Sheldon Mayer, and show him your work.” That’s when I left Chesler.

JA: You worked for the Lloyd Jacquet shop. Was that before Chesler, or during?

HASEN: I think it was during or after. I did “The Ferret.” Jacquet was an elegant man with a pipe, who sat quietly at his desk. I don’t remember much about the shop, except that I once went up there, showed him some samples, and he gave me a job.

JA: What were your first impressions of Shelly Mayer?

HASEN: He was a flamboyant character and a good teacher. He used to take my work when I’d bring it in, and if he didn’t like it, he’d throw it up against the ceiling. [laughter] The walls of the offices were glass, so everybody saw this going on, and they were scared and laughing. That was his way of getting you in line. He liked my work, he helped me out a lot, and then we became fast friends. Socially, we became very dear friends. He was a great guy. He even taught me horseback riding.

Shelly had a way of teaching you with laughter and anger and emotion. He got very emotional. I don’t know what else I can say. He was a damn good editor. He’d approve the pencils and ask for an occasional change before I inked the pages. As for covers, we sat around together and talked them out. Once he approved a sketch, I’d go home and draw it.

JA: He could obviously be a tough guy when he needed to, but did he show his softer side very often?

HASEN: Only when we’d go to his home. He’d play the guitar, and stuff like that.

JA: Who started the business of you guys having mock swordfights?

HASEN: He would do that. He would jump up on his desk waving a T-square, and say “En garde!” And I’d look up and think, “The poor bastard is crazy.” He was like a big kid! And everybody was looking, because the walls were glass; you saw everything a hundred yards away in the office building.

Shelly was only three years older than me, but he seemed like an older man. Shelly was a very sad, frustrated cartoonist. He wanted to be of another age, like Ed Wheelan [old-time cartoonist who did the Minute Movies newspaper strip. —Jim.]. He came from that; he was stuck in that age. When Shelly quit DC to become a cartoonist, it was a sad, silly move, because he gave up a whole career. He could have been what Carmine Infantino became.

JA: But Shelly stayed with the company, and not just on Sugar and Spike; he was always in on editorial meetings and things like that.

HASEN: Yeah, and then he finally got fed up. His eyesight failed him, and he had a sad ending.

JA: Were the Lafayette Street offices big or small?

HASEN: They were very small; you couldn’t work there. They maybe had a couple of cartoonists working there, like E.E. Hibbard and Jon Chester Kozlak. I would come in on a pass from the Army—still in uniform—and draw covers for Green Lantern.

JA: Did you have much opportunity to talk to M.C. Gaines [copublisher of the All-American line]?

HASEN: Very seldom. He was a very rough, brusque kind of man. He didn’t want to bother with you. Which was fine, y’know. His office was

Perhaps Õtwasbecause editor Shelly Mayer and artist Irwin Hasen used to have mock swordfights that the scripter wrote this one between Green Lantern and ÒCrusherÓ Crock into All-American Comics #85 (May 1947).

ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Ethan Roberts.

Note IrwinÕssignature. [©2005 DC Comics.]

next to Shelly’s.

I had my first love affair with one of the editors, a beautiful Danish woman. Older than me, much older. Her name was Dagmar Norgord.

She was a low-level editor in the office; she didn’t handle art. No one knew about her. She lived down in the Village at Sheridan Square. She’d entertain me with dinner and we’d go out in the Village. They were quite lovely times.

JA: Do you remember Ted Udall?

HASEN: Yeah, sure. Quiet guy. Very, very quiet. Dull. Dull quiet.

Unexciting. Editorially, he was below Shelly, Julie Schwartz, and Kanigher. Mort Weisinger was there, of course, when the DC and AllAmerican offices were combined. He was a big editor, and he was a very successful writer on his own, outside of DC. He announced one day that he had become a millionaire; he told everybody in the office. Not a nice man, God bless him.

JA: When you were in the Army, how did you find time to do comic books?

HASEN: I was stationed at Fort Dix, New Jersey, and I was in limited service, because I was almost under the height requirement. I just got in by a hair. The officer who did this, the doctor, could rubber-stamp you in the Army, out of the Army, or whatever, and my stamp said “Limited Service.” I didn’t understand what that meant.

14

Irwin Hasen On Drawing ÒGreenLantern,ÓÒJSA,Ó Etc., In The Golden Age HASEN: I have no idea. In those days, you took what you got. Y’know, it was a living.

JA: You also knew Martin Naydel. What can you tell us about him?

HASEN: Marty Naydel had a brother named Larry Nadel [sic] who was an editor at DC. Marty had a sad face. Marty was a racetrack kind of a guy; he was on the fringes of being off-color. But he created the newspaper feature Jumble, which has now been running for forty years.

He was cheated on that deal; I don’t know why, but something happened there. His creation is still going. Henri Arnold does the drawing, and an editor at the syndicate inherited Marty’s soft, cushy spot.

JA: What do you remember about E.E. Hibbard and Jon Chester Kozlak?

HASEN: Hibbard was a heavy-set guy with a little beard and mustache, very stoic. Kozlak and I were very close. He was a sweet guy. Stan Ashe and Chester Kozlak lived in the neighborhood where I lived, and we used to go out. We were friends.

JA: Shelly told me that one of the things that prompted him to leave his editorship was hearing two guys talking outside his door. One of them said, “Are you here to see the old man?” The other guy said, “Yeah.” Shelly said, “I was only thirty, and the idea of being called ‘the old man’ bothered me. I decided then that I had to get out of that job.”

A frequent and welcome guest at comics conventions, Irwin sells both original sketches and full-size drawings, plus personally-colored prints, such as this one of Wildcat (with his alter ego, heavyweight champ Ted Grant, felling an opponent in the background). A/EÕseditor long thought Irwin was mistaken when he sometimes drew sketches of the Feline Fury with sleeves ending at the wrists, since Wildcat had started out with only his knuckles bare and in his later adventures was covered head to toe except for his lower faceÑbut sneak a peek at Joe KubertÕsÒWildcatÓ splash on p. 5! And if youÕreinterested in owning an original piece of Hasen art, see p. 18! [Art ©2005 Irwin Hasen; Wildcat TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

I was Stateside at Fort Dix, and became the editor and publisher of the newspaper. I did a cartoon strip called “Route Step O’Malley”; it was about a Irish sergeant in the Army. I’d come into All-American Comics on weekends when I got a pass, and I’d sit in there with my uniform on and do covers.

JA: You worked with Bill Finger on “Wildcat” and “Green Lantern.”

Did you have much contact with him?

HASEN: Oh yeah, we went out, quietly drinking—or not drinking—he wasn’t a drinker. He was a low-key, quiet guy. He was always in debt, always owed money, and deadlines were terrible for him. He was in trouble all his life. He died poverty-stricken, in terrible circumstances.

But he was the best; very well-read and cultured.

Bill Finger, Shelly Mayer, and I created the character together: Bill was the writer, and Sheldon was the editor. Shelly worked on the costume with me. He gave me “Wildcat” because I’d worked in the fight business before I got into comics.

When I was 18 and 19, I worked for a boxing magazine called Bang, and my first job was to draw portraits of all the prize-fighters of the week. I went ringside, and worked full-time for the magazine. Shelly remembered that, and that’s how Wildcat’s secret identity came to be a prize-fighter.

JA: On “Green Lantern,” you inked Mart Nodell at one point. Why were you inking somebody else’s work?

HASEN: Really? He never told me about that. We had a wonderful time together. Outside the office, we were very close. We were drinking buddies. He’d go down to Greenwich Village bars and act like a cowboy, like John Wayne. He’d walk in bow-legged, go up to the little French lady who owned the club and say, “Hi, Pardner!” He was a terror; he was really something.

JA: What do you remember about Julie Schwartz early on?

HASEN: Not too much. He was a low-key, quiet guy. We became friends also. I met his wife Jean, and I let them use my summer house one weekend. So we were kind of close. Later on, Julie was very accessible at conventions. We used to attend conventions together. Jean was a secretary at DC. They all hit on her, but Julie won.

Julie was an irascible guy, but a damn good editor. He was a very caring editor with the business. He was one of the guys. He was just Julie: he was a very self-possessed guy when it came to business. As an editor, he would know when you were cheating, and he’d say, “Too many silhouettes! You’re trying to get away with murder. Hasen, you’re over-doing the silhouettes. Stop it!” That kind of thing. He was very aware of what you were doing, and you couldn’t pull the wool over his eyes.

JA: When Shelly left, Julie and Bob Kanigher took over.

HASEN: Shelly left at the end of 1947. After that, I just heard from him occasionally from up in the country. That was about the end of our relationship, in a sense. He was sick, and he was living on top of a mountain. He was sort-of a hermit up there, living off his pension from DC. Kanigher was a difficult man to work for: he was very quixotic, he had moods, and he wasn’t one of the boys. He was not a nice guy. He was introverted, no one liked him, and he was obsessed with himself and his image.

JA: How demanding on you was he?

HASEN: He was nasty at times. In those days, though, we were just grateful to get work, so we just sloughed off his attitude. But whether he was nasty or not, he and I became very good friends. We were social, but

ÒCartoonistsAre So Unaware Of Who They Are!Ó

15

Some of Irwin HasenÕsearliest work after leaving the Army consisted of the ÒFlashÓ and ÒJohnny ThunderÓ stories in the Wheaties giveaway comic discussed on p. 8. The cover at left is reproÕdfrom Roy T.Õsown beat-up copy (with a few chunks missing)Ñand the cereal people blotted out most of The Flash with that hideous stripe! Apparently you had to buy two packages of WheatiesÑprobably glued togetherÑand the miniature Flash Comics was visible, so at least you knew what comic you were getting. There were a few other Wheaties miniatures, as well, including one of FawcettÕsWhiz Comics. [©2005 DC Comics.]

wife; I want to tell you about my girlfriend.”

only one-on-one.

There were certain guys that you couldn’t pinpoint and put a hat on, because they were—I hate to use the phrase—not too colorful. I was colorful. Sheldon Mayer was colorful. Kanigher in his own way was a character. And Schwartz was, of course. There were other people who weren’t so interesting; they were not movie stars. They were just guys who needed to make a living after the depression, and I don’t remember them as well. Very few of them were married. Well, Bill Finger was married, and Kanigher was married.

JA: Of course, that didn’t stop Kanigher from having girlfriends...

HASEN: How do you know? Why do you say that? I didn’t tell you. [laughs] Well, he only had one, but he chased a lot of them. He was a strange guy.

JA: His girlfriend was romance editor Phyllis Reed, wasn’t she?

HASEN: That’s right. [uproarious laughter] He maintained a little pied-à-terre in New York, next to his office.

JA: Do you think he felt a need to prove himself?

HASEN: I would say so. Especially with women, I guess. He told everybody about his excesses. I knew his wife very well, yet the other part of him would say, “Never mind my

His wife was a very strong woman, and when he was at home, you wouldn’t recognize Bob Kanigher. I went to his home for dinner many times, and he didn’t say one word, at the dinner table or anywhere. His wife was the principal of a school, and made a lot of money. She was a husky little woman, and you knew that she cowed this man. I know he’d been married to her all his life, so maybe that’s why he acted the way he did when he was away from her.

JA: As gifted as you are, why did you never write for DC? HASEN: I never was a writer for them; I didn’t even want to draw for them. I just wanted to do covers. I had two or three syndicated comic strips that I worked on at various times while I was at DC. I just wanted to be in the newspapers. I didn’t care about comics. I didn’t think I was part of them. I had my eyes and dreams somewhere else, and thank God I got lucky, meeting Gus Edson and doing Dondi.

JA: I read an interview once in which you said that one of the reasons that you got out of comics was because you felt as if you were falling behind some of the new guys who were coming along.

HASEN: Absolutely. I never felt that I was up to it. The only thing I knew I could do was covers, but I never thought I was a storyteller in drawing, and that was my attitude.

Alex Toth disagrees completely.

JA: I do, too.

HASEN: Well, even Roy Thomas disagrees. In my mind, that attitude saved me, because it took me on another vision of my life and what I wanted. I had three or four comic strips.

I sold one strip before Dondi to

Technically speaking, the above artwork is by Dan Makara, not Irwin HasenÑbut Dan utilized Irwin figures from 1947 issues of All-Star Comics to make up this faux ad for the Justice SocietyÕsmag, as an homage to his friend and associate. WeÕreglad he did, since all of IrwinÕsÒJSAÓ work has been reprinted in All Star Comics Archives, Vol. 1, 2, & 7-10, so why duplicate that? (By the way, IrwinÕsÒGreen LanternÓ chapter in All-Star #6, in Vol. 2, was accidentally credited to ÒGLÓ co-creator Mart Nodell.) [Art ©2005 Dan Makara; Justice Society of America TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

16

Irwin Hasen On Drawing ÒGreenLantern,ÓÒJSA,Ó Etc., In The Golden Age

(Directly above:) Irwin did each and every Golden Age story ever drawn of Green LanternÕsclashes with his lovely 1947-48 nemesis The Harlequin, except for an Infantino-drawn chapter in All-Star Comics #41. In fact, thanks to Dan Makara, we can even view this sample daily of a previously-unsuspected Green Lantern newspaper strip, which he purchased recently on eBay! Dan reports: ÒIrwin says the strip is 100% his, as the inking on the buildings is so rough. He had no patience for inking those details, he says.Ó [©2005 DC Comics.]

(Above:) As to the Sandman drawings that weÕvereproduced from the back of that daily: Dan speculates that ÒIrwin did the ÔGLÕstrip at Lexington Ave., using the back of a sheet that was kicking around the office. I asked Jim Simon if he thought it was his dadÕs[Joe SimonÕs]work; he didnÕtthink soÉ however, itÕssoooo niceÉ I wonderÉ.Ó Interesting, since by the time The Harlequin made her debut in All-American Comics #89 (Sept. 1947), The Sandman had been put to sleep a year and a half earlier! Anybody out there got any theories? [Sandman TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

Irwin was the artist (and later co-writer) of the newspaper strip Dondi for its entire run of a third of a century. This autographed June 18, 1969, strip is reproÕdfrom the original art, from Roy & Dann ThomasÕpersonal collection. [©2005 Chicago Tribune Syndicate or successors in interest.]

Irwin (right) and old friend/editor Julie Schwartz share some time and space at the Heroes Con in Charlotte, NC, on June 9, 2001. Thanks to Bob Bailey.

ÒCartoonistsAre So Unaware Of Who They Are!Ó

17

the McNaught Syndicate. I was in an emotional state at the time, and couldn’t go through with it. The name of the strip was Irwin. He was a little character like myself, with married friends. It was a great idea, a great concept: a bachelor with married friends. To be honest with you, I was going to a therapist at the time, and was in bad shape emotionally.

So I dropped the strip before it even got into the papers. I couldn’t go through with it. I told my doctor, and he understood. This was in 1952.

JA: Let’s talk about Alex Toth, because Alex absolutely adored your work.

HASEN: I don’t understand it, but he did. He was only sixteen, so he didn’t know any better. [laughs] Alex was a Hungarian kid who lived in my neighborhood with his mother, who was a very strong woman. Alex was a tall, skinny, shy kid, and I didn’t see the potential in his work, because he was just a kid. Joe Kubert was the only one who was good as a kid; he was good when he was 12. Alex and I had a very interesting bond together, but it was very brief, because he left DC and went into animation on the West Coast. I haven’t seen him in fifty years.

One day Alex said, “My mother makes great goulash.” I said, “Tell her to send some over,” and he brought some over to my house. He used to come over and draw while I was working.

JA: How much did he question you about your work?

HASEN: He was always questioning, but I don’t remember him asking me much about my work. We had more of a social kind of relationship.

JA: What about the young Joe Kubert?

HASEN: We struck up a friendship in 1945 or ’46. I don’t recall how it came about, but it must have happened at DC. I don’t remember Joe as a young kid, except for 1947, when we drove across the country in his new car. He had a huge, beautiful Chrysler convertible, with wood paneling on the sides. He loved cars, and still does. He was going to the wedding of his best friend Norman Maurer, who was marrying the daughter of one of the Three Stooges [Moe Howard], and he said, “Irwin, c’mon along and keep me company on the trip.” Joe and I took the trip alone—it took four days, I think—and Sol Harrison met us out there.

JA: Did you talk at all to the Stooges?

HASEN: No. It was one evening, a crowded ceremony, and I don’t even remember seeing them.

JA: Since Joe had such incredible ability at a young age, I guess the editors must have really counted on him.

HASEN: Absolutely. He was the best of all of them. He was impeccable right from the beginning, and driven right from the beginning of his life.

JA: I know you taught at his school for 26 years. What was Joe like to work for in that capacity?

HASEN: Very, very easy, but you don’t mess around with him. You don’t cross him. Joe was the boss of the school, and he’d let you know it if he saw that you might be screwing up in some way, no matter how dear a friend you were. He’s probably one of the most focused men I’ve ever met, but he’s a pussycat, too. He’s a real sweetheart of a man, and he doesn’t talk badly about anybody, which is more than I can say for myself. [laughs] JA: What do you remember about Carmine Infantino?

HASEN: I don’t remember much. We were buddies; we were very close in the 1960s. We’d drink together while he was the boss at DC. But Carmine was elusive. We went out, but we didn’t go on dates, because he was a private guy when it came to women.

Early Irwin: a page from All-American Comics #39 (June 1942). ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Joel Thingvall. [©2005 DC Comics.]

JA: Let’s move on to a couple of writers. When you were drawing “Green Lantern” or “Wildcat,” did you always know who the writer was? Did you know Gardner Fox or John Broome very well?

HASEN: Their names often weren’t on the scripts. I knew John Broome very well through Julie, but never socially. I didn’t know Gardner Fox, who looked like an accountant.

JA: Did you know Lee Elias or Shelly Moldoff?

HASEN: Very well. Lee was a very troubled guy. He was paranoid; he was afraid that everyone was talking about him. He was very talented, played a wonderful violin, but he was a very complex, paranoid person.

Shelly was a sweetheart. A very nice man. I met him on the convention tours with his wife, and we were very close. He was a very down-to-earth guy, and still is. Very unaffected; he’s one of the good guys.

JA: In those days, if you worked for one editor at DC, you usually didn’t work for another editor at the company.

HASEN: Yes, that’s true. I never thought about it back then. All you did back then was take orders. Whenever they had a job for you, you were grateful, and you went home and did it.

I always worked at home. I had a small apartment with my father, mother, grandma, and grandfather. It was quite horrendous. We moved a lot during the Great Depression, because they’d give you three months’ rent free when you moved into a building. That’s how bad it was. I moved five times in ten years. We stayed in the New York area—nice neighborhoods—but I was always in a small, dark room with a radio. I’d listen to The First Nighter or The Green Hornet or baseball games

18

Irwin Hasen On Drawing ÒGreenLantern,ÓÒJSA,Ó Etc., In The Golden Age

when I worked. We had five people crammed in there. That’s why when I was called into the Army... to me it was a godsend, getting out of the house. [Jim laughs] I really mean it!

JA: You’re the only person I ever heard say that.

HASEN: Well, I was under the height requirement, so I knew I wasn’t gonna get killed. But that wouldn’t have bothered me, either. [mutual laughter] JA: Were you helping to support your parents?

HASEN: Not that much, but yes. I was making more money than my father, who was a furniture salesman. We’d go to a bar together; he was more like a friend than a father. He’d say to me, “Kid, if you’re gonna drink scotch, drink the best scotch.” He’d look at the bartender, and he’d say, “Jack, the kid’s making more money than I am.” There was no rancor in him. He was proud of me. He came from the old country; when you had children, they worked in the fields. I didn’t realize it then, but I always felt that he wanted his son to be a big man. This could have been in my imagination, but as long as I said it, that means I must have felt it. We became friends, and remained friends right up to his death.

I invited him to my home when I had a big housewarming party— Rube Goldberg and Otto Soglow were there, and a couple of very important people in New York—and he couldn’t get over it. And I was with a tall, beautiful, South American woman. I was with a lovely lady, and he just couldn’t believe that his little son... you know what I’m talking about. He was just in awe that I should be with this tall, beautiful woman, and that she was my ladyfriend at the time, because I never showed off any women to my family. Anyway, that’s me. What else?

JA: How did you meet Bob Oksner?

HASEN: Bob Oksner and I were like Damon and Pythias. We were very, very close. I met him at DC, and we became like brothers. I would work at his studio with him, and I became very intimidated by him. He was the most brilliant artist in the business, in his own style. Girls, mostly. He actually intimidated me so terribly, he was almost like Svengali. I’d work side-by-side with him, and whenever I’d see his work, I’d go back to my studio at home and think, “Man, I can’t be in this business.”

I’d stay at his house a lot and sleep on the couch. It was like what I’ve done all my life: I adopt families. Bert Whitman and his wife. Bob Oksner and his wife. That was sort of my way of surviving as a single man. I don’t want to talk too much about my own thing, but that’s part of what I was all about. Adopted families.

JA: What did Bob do for you on Dondi?

HASEN: We wrote, and we both worked on the plots. He worked on the strip with me for about 15 years. We’d have meetings every week, and I would do mostly the dialogue, because I knew how Dondi would talk. That’s an interesting little sidelight. He would quote things while we were doing the dialogue, and I’d say, “Bob, the kid wouldn’t talk that way.” That’s how I realized that I was part of Dondi. I knew this kid, and I knew the way he would talk.

JA: I’ve also heard that you knew Frank Robbins.

HASEN: Very well. He was a genius. Genius! He was also a painter, and he invented the Robbins sound system. Personally, he was very friendly, talkative and open; a sweet guy.

JA: Did you know Joe Giella?

JA: Was he a joke-teller?

HASEN: Yes, and we’re still friends, and we love each other. He’s a sweetheart.

HASEN: No, I did the entertaining for all my friends. [mutual laughter] They were all serious people, and I was like I always was: the kid who made people laugh.

JA: What can you tell me about Tex Blaisdell?

HASEN: Another close friend. He worked on backgrounds for Dondi, as he did on many other strips. We would have wonderful times together after we got through working at 10:00 at night. He’d come over at one in the afternoon and work right through, and after we got through working, we have the most wonderful discourses on life and everything.

He was a very sad man. He was unhappily married. He had a sad life personally, but he was brilliant intellectually.

GOLDEN AGE COVER RECREATIONS by

JA: What about John Buscema?

HASEN: I got to know him near the end of his life. I met him during a trip to Italy. He carried my luggage while we were traveling all through Italy. He wouldn’t let me pick it up. He was a big, husky guy, and he could carry his and mine. He was kind-of a big bear of a man, so talented, but so unimpressed with his talent. He carried my luggage when I met him at the airport with Stan Goldberg.

JA: Now that you mention him, tell us about Stan.

HASEN: Stan Goldberg is the best. He had wonderful parties out in the Hamptons every year, and he’d entertain people—a very gracious guy.

Also, I think he’s one of the most talented guys in the business, a giant.

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I’m so privileged to have met these guys who are really great, but also down-to-Earth and not impressed with themselves. Not like these men in business—lawyers and corporate structure men—who are so delusional about their presence on this Earth. Cartoonists are so unaware of who they are!

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The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part three

(Excerpts From A) Postcard From The Edge—Of California, That Is! ÒJSAÓ Artist ALEX TOTH Relates Why He Has Nothing To Say About The JSA!

[Art ©2005 Alex Toth.]

A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Since he and his late-1940s DC colleagues Joe Kubert and Irwin Hasen all contributed (as did Carmine Infantino and others) to the very best period of All-Star Comics, we asked Alex if he had any memories of his work therein on the “JSA” itself (#38, 40, & the cover/splash of #41), or of chapters featuring Dr. Mid-Nite and The Atom (#37). Here, with his permission, are the relevant portions of his reply:

Still, for a 1981 Toth rendition of the gathered Justice Society, see The All-Star Companion (now “Vol. 1,” since Vol. 2 will be published later this year).

As weÕvementioned before, itÕsodd that editor Shelly Mayer never asked Alex Toth to draw a ÒGreen LanternÓ chapter in All-Star. Fortunately for Golden Age collectors, however, Mayer kept Alex busy doing the Emerald Gladiator in All-American Comics, Green Lantern, and in Comic Cavalcade. HereÕsthe artistÕssplash from a story in CC #26 (April-May 1948). [©2005 DC Comics.]

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part four

21

A “Will” Of The Wisp!

Would You Believe It? Still More Art From That Long-Lost ÒJSAÓ Adventure!

by Roy Thomas

“T

he Will of William Wilson” has been (you should pardon the expression) a “Will” of the wisp.

Original art from that Gardner Fox-scripted but never-published “Justice Society” story—which was shelved back in 1944-45, “written off” for tax purposes on Sept. 30, 1949, and mostly cut into pieces in the late 1960s—has proven an elusive thing to track down in its entirety.

Partly because the tale turns out to have been 48 pages long—and partly because it’s possible that a baker’s dozen pages of it (the “Hawkman” and “Johnny Thunder” chapters) may never even have been drawn.

Still, as readers of our trade paperback The All-Star Companion know well, much of that “lost” story survives. In it we printed most of the “JSA” finale, plus art from the “Flash,” “Green Lantern,” “Dr. MidNite,” and “Atom” chapters, thanks to Marv Wolfman, Len Wein, Ethan Roberts, Jerry Bails, George Hagenauer, and the late Mark Hanerfeld.

Only a few weeks later, in A/E V3#7, we ran two more tiers (rows) of panels from the “Flash” segment. Nearly a year later, in A/E #14, thanks to Stephen Fischler, we were able to print the entire 5-page “JSA” intro.

Then, in A/E #21, we showcased the only solo-chapter splash panel

Part V from the story known to exist, that of the “Atom” chapter, courtesy of Alley Oop artist Jack Bender.

Perhaps even more than the totally AWOL “Hawkman” and “Johnny Thunder” episodes and a single no-show “Flash” tier, the most tantalizing MIA pieces have been the two missing rows of art from the 6-page “JSA” conclusion.

Now, however, one of those tiers has surfaced. Recently, Michael T. Gilbert and others informed me a tier from that “lost” story, drawn by Martin Naydel (who drew the 17 pages of “JSA” and “Flash” material in “Will”) was being sold on eBay. I soon learned that sciencefiction/mystery/comics history writer Ron Goulart was the seller—and thought he’d sent me a copy of it long since. Ron, with the aid of John Wilcox, generously provided me with a pristine photocopy—and collector Dominic Bongo, the guy who’d just purchased it, sent me scans which even reproduced a handwritten editorial note in the margins.

Thus, without further ado—and introduced by Ron’s cartoon which accompanied the copy he sent me:

[Psycho-Pirate TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

These Naydel panels, of course, constitute a brief flashback related by The Psycho-Pirate to his captors, the six male JSAers. The handscrawled note at right—probably written by editor Shelly Mayer— indicates that the words “my money…which I acquired honestly…as a bait!” are to be changed to: “the money I acquired honestly as a bait!” A small but real distinction, admitting that some of Psycho-Pirate’s riches were gathered by extra-legal means.

The caption and dialogue in the first panel make it clear (just grab your copy of All-Star Companion V1 and check out p. 129!) that this tier originally made up the middle of page “Y”—with the first and third

tiers on that page remaining where they are in our book. The tier which, in Companion, we placed in the middle of page “Y” (and which begins with the villain’s words, “At the last minute…”) are actually the missing top tier of page “Z,” whose other two rows of panels appear on p. 130.

Now, we’re back to busily searching for that single missing tier from page “V” of the “JSA” finale, and for additional art from the solo chapters.

We hope and trust that you’ll wish us—Good “Will” Hunting!

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part five

An “ATOM” Age Artisan

ARTHUR ADLER On His Short, Sweet Comics-Writing Career In The Late 1940s Interview Conducted by Jim Amash

I

NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: Anytime comic book historians get a chance to interview a writer from the Golden Age, we grab onto it as quickly as possible. So, when Mark Evanier e-mailed Roy Thomas, mentioning that he had heard from Arthur Adler, Roy gave me this rare opportunity. Like most writers of his time, Mr. Adler never signed his work, and didn’t consider it to be important.

Personally, we think everyone who worked in comics was important, and thanks to Mark and to Arthur Adler himself, Alter Ego is able to give you a short but sweet slice of history that we hadn’t known about until now. Thanks, fellas! —Jim.

JIM AMASH: When and where were you born? And how did you get into comics?

ARTHUR ADLER: I was born in New York City on May 1, 1921. I met artist Dave Berg in the Army; we were in the same outfit. We put out a newspaper on Iwo Jima called The Fighter Post. Dave, of course, was a terrific artist. Dave got me work at Timely Comics around 1946 or ’47. I worked on features like “Jeanie,” “Kathy,” “Millie the Model,” and “Frankie.” I don’t recall who my editor was, though. It might very well have been Dave.

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish York boys against the hillbillies. [laughs] Dave was physically strong, very outspoken and aggressive, and he wasn’t afraid of anything. Dave was a terrific fighter; he wouldn’t take anything from anybody.

There were a bunch of Texans and Oklahomans in the utilities section of our outfit... the same section Dave was in. They were truck drivers, linemen, and guys like that. There was another boy, Phil Wertman, from Dave’s neighborhood in Brooklyn. Dave lived in Brownsville before the war, I believe. These Texans and Oklahomans were taunting Phil Wertman. He was about 18, not very strong, and the Texans were bulls.

They wore their own personal revolvers in holsters. They formed a circle around Wertman, and were poking at him, challenging him to a fight. They knocked him down, and then suddenly Dave came into the circle. He turned to the biggest Texan, the legendary Joe R. Smith, who was carrying guns. Dave said, “Okay, he’s a kid. Now take me on.” And would you believe that they backed away? To me, that’s legendary.

JA: When did you start at DC Comics?

ADLER: I believe it was 1948, though I could have started in ’47. It was before the Korean War. Dave and I were roommates after we got out of the service. Dave went with me and introduced me to Julie Schwartz. Julie was very competent, and knew the ins and outs of the comics industry. He gave me an assignment to do a script for “The Atom.” I hadn’t heard of the character before. Julie hired me on Dave’s recommendation. I never saw the artists, just Julie, and we never socialized.

JA: What made Dave think that you could write comics?

ADLER: I wrote for The Fighter Post, and I wrote for Marion Hargrove [author of the wartime bestseller See Here, Private Hargrove] at Yank magazine. I did humorous and satirical writing, that kind of stuff. Dave and I got along very well together. We were in the same outfit, the 555th; we were New

Golden Age comics scripter Arthur Adler sent two photos of himselfÑone taken in Iwo Jima in 1945 when he was in the armed services, and the other labeled Ò50 Years Later.Ó They flank the above splash for the ÒAtomÓ tale which Arthur labeled in his records (see p. 25) as ÒMurder in Totem,Ó and which he submitted to National/DC on June 4, 1948. The story was duly drawn by Arthur Peddy (pencils) & Bob Oksner (inks); but alas, before it could be printed, the monthly Flash Comics was canceled, and it lay on the shelf until finally seeing the light of day in the giant-size Batman #238 (Jan. 1972)! The logo and the top-left blurb were added in 1971. The storyÕstitle mustÕvebeen changed Õwayback in Õ48,by editor Julius Schwartz, to ÒDanger in the TotemÕsEye!Ó Thanks to Craig Delich for the Oksner ID. [Atom art ©2005 DC Comics.]

Arthur Adler On His Short, Sweet Comics Writing Career

23

SPLITTING THE ATOM IN TWOÑWE MEAN, THREE! As per his sole remaining record sheet (see p. 25), Arthur Adler scripted at least four ÒAtomÓ stories between March and June of 1948; whether he wrote any more is unknown. The splash for the last of these, which languished unpublished till 1971, was printed on the opposite page. The splash pages of the other three ÒAtomÓ scripts he listed appear above, with thanks to collector Al Dellinges. From left to right: (a) ÒThe Sneezing Statues!Ó from Flash Comics #102 (Dec. 1948) is incorrectly called ÒThe Seizing StatueÓ on the record sheetÑperhaps a misreading of ArthurÕs handwritten notes? (b) ÒThe Rock Crushers!Ó in Flash #103 (Jan. 1949) started out as ÒStream of Stone,Ó (or ÒStonesÓ?)and was apparently submitted before ÒThe Sneezing Statues!Ó (c) ÒThe Vanishing Lighthouse!Ó was called ÒLooters LightÓ [should be ÒLootersÕLightÓ?] by Arthur, and saw print in Flash #104 (Feb. 1949), the final issue of the monthly magazine starring The Flash, Hawkman, and Black Canary. ÒThe AtomÓ finally got a decent logoÑone that A/EÕseditor used in Secret Origins in the 1980sÑ only to find his mag canceled out from under him! Oh, well, at least he still had All-Star ComicsÑfor another two years.

Interestingly, ArthurÕsrecords shown that he was paid $6 per page by DCÑ$1 per page less than his rate at Timely!

Art in the three above Adler ÒAtomÓstories, according to researchers Jerry G. Bails and Craig Delich, is by Paul Reinman, who also drew the ÒAtomÓepisodes in Flash #93, 95, 97, 99, & 100, as well as in All-Star Comics #35. (Jerry, however, feels that someone besides Reinman inked #104Ñand Craig says that someone was Bob Oksner.) According to Greg Sadowski, whoÕswritten two recent authoritative volumes on artist Bernard Krigstein that are still available from Fantagraphics Books, Reinman also inked KrigsteinÕsÒAtomÓpencils in Flash #94 (April 1948); thanks to John Benson for putting us in touch with Greg. Oh, and pick up both Krigstein booksÑtheyÕre fabulous! [Art ©2005 DC Comics.]

JA: How long did you write “The Atom”?

was less than $15 a page.

ADLER: Probably less than a year. I would turn in a synopsis, Julie would either okay it or reject it, and we would develop it from that.

Sometimes Julie suggest plot ideas. He was terrific. He was very professional. He knew comics, and gave me guidance that was necessary. I enjoyed writing “The Atom.” It was something that moved, and let me express myself a little.

JA: True Comics went out of business around 1950. Is that why you quit working for them?

JA: Why did you stop writing “The Atom”?

ADLER: I was doing other things, and getting ready to get married.

Y’know, stuff like that.

JA: Did you work for any other companies at the same time you were working for Julie?

ADLER: My wife reminds me that I worked for a publication called True Comics [published by Parents’ Magazine]. I did that for about four years, from 1946 to 1950. I wrote stories about historical events that I chose, and supplied research materials to the artists for the stories. I would come up with an idea or synopsis, then talk it over with the editor, then write the script. I loved doing it, because I’m a history buff.

JA: Do you remember how much you were paid at True Comics?

ADLER: Probably very little, compared to today. I would say that it

ADLER: That could very well have been. It could also have been that I got married. I was condemned to a longer sentence. [laughs] JA: Do you remember when you went to work for Standard Publications?

ADLER: It was probably in 1948, and I worked for them until around 1950, when I left comics. I wrote a number of true war things, and some humor features like “Roger” and “Jefferson.”

At about the same time, I wrote “Hap.” I also wrote a series called “Ezra,” based on the actor Ezra Stone, but I don’t know who published it. My wife also reminds me that I did an article for Writers’ Digest— probably in 1950—on how to write for comics.

A man named Lou Sampliner was my editor, and was around my age.

He was a member of a reserve Air Force group that was stationed at Mitchell Field, and he kept trying to talk me into joining up, too. I would give Lou a synopses for each story. We had a very good working relationship, and never had any problems. Maybe he was still trying to recruit me into the reserves? [laughs] It was right after World War II, and nobody in his right mind would want to join the reserves, so he was

24

An ÒAtomÓ Age Artist Fighter Post, Arthur wrote in a 2004 note, was a mimeographed, 20-page Òjoint ventureÓ between Sgt. Dave Berg and himself, with illustrations by Berg and articles by Adler. At right are the cover of the post-war Oct. 13, 1945, ÒSouvenir Issue,Ó with its touching illo of a father explaining, perhaps, ÒThe Lighter Side ofÓ Iwo Jima and World War II to his sons when he gets back homeÑand a back-cover comic-strip look at the end of the war starring ÒIwo Ike.Ó Before WWII, Berg had been an artist for Fawcett, drawing ÒCaptain Marvel,Ó et al.; after the war, he would work in the Timely bullpen before his ÒLighter Side ofÓ cartoons, in particular, became one of the most popular features in Mad magazine. Dave passed away in 2002; an interview with him conducted by Jim Amash not long before his death is slated for an early issue of Alter Ego. Seen below, with a Berg heading illo, are part of ÒThe MouseÕsExodus,Ó an article by Private First Class Arthur AdlerÑand another Berg drawing (complete with map) showing IwoÕs strategic importance. (ÒChosen,Ó incidentally, was the Japanese name for the Korean peninsula, while ÒHonshuÓ is the largest island of Japan.)

Iwo Jima, as no American should ever forget, was one of the bloodiest battles of the war, since, when it and then Okinawa fell, the Japanese home islands would be within striking distance of land-based U.S. bombers.

In the struggle to take it, 6800 Marines were killed, 18,000 more woundedÉ while the Japanese suffered in excess of 20,000 dead.

The raising of the American flag over Iwo Jima by four Marines became one of the legendary images of World War II.

When Berg sent us this photo for an FCA interview in 2000, he said it was of Sgt. Dave Berg at the Battle of Iwo JimaÑÒthe ugliest and most dismal spot in the world.Ó

Arthur Adler On His Short, Sweet Comics Writing Career

25 appeared in print.

trying to get me to fill a slot there.

I’m glad I didn’t join, because the Korean War broke out on June 10, 1950, and I got married on June 17 of that year. Happily, I said “yes” to her and “no” to Lou Sampliner. [laughs]

JA: What did you do after leaving the business?

ADLER: I wrote a column for thirty years for Home Furnishings Daily, which was published by Fairchild Publications. It was called “Retales”; it was a chatty column about the retail industry. My pseudonym for that was Art Graham. I did that until I was 70.

JA: Was Lou Sampliner the only person you dealt with at Standard?

ADLER: Yes. I remember that Lou’s uncle was also involved in the business; his name was either Philip or Paul Sampliner. [NOTE: Paul Sampliner ran Independent News, DC’s comic book distributor, adding to a long held suspicion that DC and Standard Publications were once connected to each other. —Jim.]

I left comics because I didn’t feel that I was fluent enough at writing them, whereas I could just write the “Retales” column off the top of my head. I had a wide range of topics to write about. I used to get fan mail for it, too.

JA: When you wrote stories, did they give you copies of the books, or did you have to go to a newsstand to get them?

JA: Did you miss doing comics after you left it?

ADLER: I missed doing the true stuff, like the stories I did for True Comics and at Standard. However, the column kept me busy, because it was a daily. But these days, I’m retired and just try to enjoy life.

ADLER: I could go up to the office to get them, or they would mail them to me.

JA: You never signed your work, did you?

ADLER: No, my name never

We couldnÕtbe sure that ArthurÕsÒHapÓ listing below was definitely for AceÕsHap Hazard Comics (a ÒteenageÓ title)Ñand the Picto-Journal Guide doesnÕtpicture any Timely Frankie covers after 1946 or Millie the Model after Õ47Ñand there was no Kathy comic at Timely (let alone anywhere else) till 1959Ñnor does anyone we know have any idea where or even if his ÒEzraÓ stories ever saw print (Ezra Stone was the actor who played Henry Aldrich on the radioÑand Henry A. had been the inspiration for Archie Andrews, so it would probably have been a ÒteenageÓ comic). So, given all the above, Ye Editor figured, what the heck, this is Alter EgoÑletÕs exit with The Atom! HereÕsthe final page of what may well have been the last solo ÒAtomÓ story ever scriptedÑ with words by Arthur Adler, and art by Peddy & Oksner. To read the four pages in between this and the splash on p. 22, ferret out a copy of Batman #238 in the back-issue bins! [©2005 DC Comics.]

For The Record...

Arthur Adler found one page of his old records, and forwarded a copy to Jim Amash, who retyped it. Arthur didn’t list the company names, so Jim added those as best he could. Listed are (a) the date he turned the story in; (b) the name of the feature (which may or may not also be the name of the comics title); (c) the (parenthesized) name of the company, as reasoned out by Jim, with an assist from Stephan Rowe; (d) storylength as indicated in the script; and (e) the amount he was paid for the entire script. For instance: On Nov. 24, 1947, Arthur turned in a “Jeanie” script to Timely. It was titled “Starry Eyed,” ran 5 pages, and he was paid $35 for it (so his rate was apparently $7 per page). See the art that accompanies this interview for positive identification of the four DC “Atom” stories listed below. —Roy. Nov. 24, 1947 - Jeanie - (Timely) - Starry Eyed - 5 pages - $35

Jan. 1948 - Hap - (Hap Hazard, at Ace?) - Hip Nonsense - 10 pages - $60

Nov. 28, 1947 - Jeanie - (Timely) - Prom War - 6 pages - $42

March 1948 - The Atom - (DC) - Stream of Stone - 5 pages - $30

Dec. 3, 1947 - Kathy - (company unknown - not Timely) - Shutterbug 9 pages - $54

March 1948 - Ezra - (company unknown) - Smoke Eater

Dec. 4, 1947 - Millie [the Model] - (Timely) - New Old Look 6 pages - $42

April 1948 - The Atom - (DC) - Seizing Statue - 6 pages - $30 April 15, 1948 - Frankie - (Timely) - Frantic Antics - 2 pages - $17.50

Dec. 10, 1947 - Rodger - (Roger Dodger? - Standard) - Current Event 7 pages - $42

April 26, 1948 - Ezra - (company unknown) - Fire - $42

Dec. 1947 - Jefferson - (Standard) - Smoke Eaters

May 12, 1948 - The Atom - (DC) - Looters Light - 5 pages - $30

Jan. 1948 - Andy - (Standard?) - TNT Perfume - 8 pages - $48

May 17, 1948 - Jeanie - (Timely) - Film Flam - 5 pages - $35

April 1948 - Jeanie - (Timely) - Modern Age - 4 pages - $28

June 4, 1948 - The Atom - (DC) - Murder in Totem - 6 pages - $36

The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s part six

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star MURPHY ANDERSON

I

Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

NTERVIEWER’S INTRO: Murphy Anderson’s role in the 1960s revival of the Justice Society heroes was one of the artistic highlights of his career. His life-long fascination with those characters made him a natural choice for the JSArelated team-ups in Showcase and The Brave and the Bold, as well as the “Spectre” series that soon followed. Murphy wasn’t able to continue down this path, but his warm, elegant artwork greatly enriched the JSA mythos, and we’re happy that Murphy expressed his thoughts about that work for us. This interview is ©2005 Murphy Anderson & Jim Amash. —Jim.

JIM AMASH: Why were you picked for the JSA-related teamups with Dr. Fate and Hourman, and Starman and Black Canary, in 1965?

MURPHY ANDERSON: I was doing a lot of work for Julie Schwartz at the time, and he knew that I was familiar with all of those old characters, maybe more so than some of the artists who had been with him longer.

I knew all those characters from their earliest beginnings. As we talked about it, I brought in copies of my old books with the characters in them. It worked out that he needed me for the assignment, and the JSA books were done concurrently. I think “The Spectre” cropped up after the others were done.

Mr. and Mrs. Murphy Anderson at the Heroes Con in Charlotte, NC (June 9, 2001)Ña photo taken by Bob Bailey on the same day as that of Hasen and Schwartz on p. 16Ñplus a chaptersplash from the first ÒSpectreÓ revival story, in Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966). If you wanna see a great repro of that issueÕspage 1 splash, grab a copy of R.C. HarveyÕsexcellent and art-filled 2003 volume The Life and Art of Murphy AndersonÑstill on sale in this issueÕs TwoMorrows ad bloc. [Spectre art ©2005 DC Comics.]

JA: Since you grew up with these characters, these stories must have had special meaning for you.

ANDERSON: Sure.

I liked “The Spectre” quite well when the character was originally introduced. “Starman” was just around; I never cared much for the feature. “Black Canary” was even later; the character came out after World War II. I enjoyed “Dr. Fate” and “Hourman” very much.

I particularly liked Hourman; he even inspired a little marionette I made when I was in junior high school there at Greensboro Central. We had a class project to make little marionettes. They were each about one foot tall, and I designed a super-hero for one of mine. My mother sewed a cape for him, and all that garbage. I made a hood for him out of oilcloth, I believe. I forget what I called him, but it might have been one of my own characters; I had a couple of ideas that I was playing with at the time.

Murphy mentioned to Jim Amash that, circa 1940, he had drawn a one-page super-hero parody called ÒVita-Man,Ó so naturally Jim hounded the poor guy till he sent us a copy of this never-published piece. It came with a note from Murphy: ÒWARNING! View enclosed at your peril! Definitely not for the faint of heart! Éunless you have a very low brow!Ó DonÕtbe so hard on yourself, Murphy. It wouldÕvefit nicely in any number of 1940s comics! (For MurphyÕsÒTime TravelerÓ and other amateur strips he used as samples, see R.C. HarveyÕsAnderson tome.) [©2005 Murphy Anderson.]

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights

27

(Above left:) This two-panel half-page of Hourman, Dr. Fate, and Solomon Grundy by Murphy Anderson is reproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art to the classic Showcase #55 (March-April 1965), courtesy of Mike W. Barr & Tom Horvitz.

One of those was “The Time Traveler,” and years later, I got into big discussions about him with Julie. He was a science-fiction superhero type of character who could travel back and forth in time. That was his power: he could leave a disaster and come back at a more opportune time.

JA: You told me once that when they brought back Black Canary, you suggested she be an African-American woman. Was that suggestion made for this particular incarnation?

ANDERSON: Yes, a black singer. I made the suggestion while they were discussing her revival... before anything was plotted, but Julie didn’t like the idea. He didn’t think the time was right for it. Julie was “Black Canary’s” original editor [in the 1940s], and he may have been attached to the character just as she was. He also knew the people in the front office wouldn’t go for it, because they were worried about how the idea would be received in the South.

JA: Were the covers done before the stories?

ANDERSON: I think so. Julie picked the villains, like The Huntress and Sportsmaster for the Starman/Black Canary team-up. He wanted to use those old characters, so we came up with a cover that would show their powers off. Then for Doctor Fate/Hourman, he wanted to use Solomon Grundy. He also had Green Lantern in that story, and Wildcat in one of the Starman/Black Canary stories. He wanted to feature as many of those characters as he could in cameo appearances, or whatever it took to drag them in. Julie wanted to revive these characters, not in their older guises, but as updated characters.

JA: So you think it was Julie’s idea to do these team-ups, rather than the front office?

(Above:) Some years back, Murphy sketched this Solomon Grundy head for Tom Watkins, who has Òworked on film and TV crews as a ÔpropertymanÕor set dresser for close to thirty years.Ó Thanks for sharing it, Tom! (Below:) Splash page from the first ÒStarman and Black CanaryÓ full-lengther, in The Brave and the Bold #61 (Sept. 1965). [Published art ©2005 DC Comics; Grundy head art ©2005 Murphy Anderson; Solomon Grundy TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

ANDERSON: I had a little influence on him, but we’d just toss ideas around, accept them or reject them. I always liked Hourman, though I never had a great feeling for The Green Lantern. The concept of Green Lantern wasn’t science-fictiony; it was kind of magic. The Dr. Fate concept was a little different: it wasn’t magic, it was mysticism. That was more interesting.

I’d always liked the Dr. Fate character, and I liked Hourman. When I was a kid, I had a little character I was trying to do in a kind of Jack Cole style, just as a filler page. I designed him to be Vita-Man. He would size up a crime that was happening, and then he would take vitamin so-and-so...

BXQ4 or something. He would swallow a pill and then take off after the bad guys.

JA: When you were doing the teamups, did you research the old stories?

ANDERSON: Well, Julie and Gardner Fox researched them, and they may have used some of my old books, I’m not sure. They had their own copies of the comics.

JA: How do you think Gardner Fox felt about those characters?

ANDERSON: Gardner was hard to read. I don’t know how much he enjoyed doing comics, but he was a workman and gave everything his best shot. He might not have liked them particularly; I don’t know. He never intended to get into comics, but Vin Sullivan was a boyhood

28

A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson liked the concept of the character, and so did I. Of course, I took the job with Will Eisner while I was still waiting for a decision on The Spectre. Julie and I decided that I couldn’t do two books—even though they were bi-monthlies—while I was working for Eisner, so he decided to drop Hawkman. That’s when Murray Boltinoff took Hawkman over, and Julie started The Spectre so I would have a bi-monthly magazine. I was happy with that decision, because I would rather have drawn The Spectre than Hawkman. Besides, doing the special effects and backgrounds on The Spectre was faster and more fun than doing modern, present-day stuff.

A couple of Anderson firsts: his cover for Showcase #60 (Feb. 1966), the first ÒSpectreÓ issue Ñand that of The Spectre #1 (Nov.-Dec. 1967). [©2005 DC Comics.]

I preferred drawing The Spectre because of the workload: not only did Hawkman have wings, but he had a wife who had wings, and they [chuckle] went around together a great deal, which complicated things. I never really cared for doing mob scenes; that was one of the drawbacks of doing “The Atomic Knights.” You had six different people wearing six different suits of armor. When the decision was made that two of the Knights would be brothers, I said, “Julie, if they’re brothers, couldn’t they be twin brothers?”

friend—they went to school together and kept in touch—and Vin asked Gardner to come to work for him.

JA: “The Spectre” was one of my favorite series of yours, and kind-of a departure from your other work.

ANDERSON: Julie and I had a lot of fun talking about those stories, because he brought in aspects that Jerry Siegel [co-creator and writer] never thought about. Julie drew inspiration from some of the master writers of the pulp field, and used some concepts out of their fiction.

JA: I’m looking at the Showcase cover where you have Starman and Black Canary fighting The Mist. Were you looking at [Starman cocreator and artist] Jack Burnley for that, particularly in how you delineated The Mist?

ANDERSON: Yes. I liked Burnley’s stuff, and wanted to keep the feeling that Starman was different from Superman. Except for the headgear and the colors, Starman and Superman were virtually the same character, perhaps because Burnley had been doing a lot of Superman before Starman.

JA: Your approach to “The Spectre” is somewhat different from your approach to “Atomic Knights,” because the themes were different.

ANDERSON: Actually, Julie and I both liked Virgil Finlay and two or three other science-fiction pulp artists, and Julie would always say, “Give me a Finlay effect; give me a Finlay monster”... that sort of thing.

So I’d usually pull out the fins and the finned ears to make them look different.

JA: Both of the Showcase Spectre covers are very striking; especially issue #61, with the villain hitting The Spectre over the head with the planet Earth.

ANDERSON: That was Julie’s idea. I can’t take credit for that.

JA: DC must have known rather quickly that the “Spectre” features in Showcase did well, because he got his own series shortly afterwards.

ANDERSON: I think Julie was going to give him his own series, even if he didn’t sell particularly well. I don’t know how well they sold. He

ÒNot only did Hawkman have wings, but he had a wife who had wings!Ó Hey, but we loved the way you drew them, Murphy, as per this page from Hawkman #12 (Feb.-March 1966). Thanks to Shane Foley for sending us b&w copies of much of this issue, taken from an Australian reprint. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights

29

JA: You told me [A/E #38] that you coined the term “Spectre-acular.”

ANDERSON: I was just making bad jokes, bad puns, you know, looking for adjectives on the first cover, and I contributed that one. Julie immediately liked it. The one I like better is when Hawkman knocks a couple of crooks over with his wings, and one of the crooks says, “Hawkman, keep your pinions to yourself.” [laughter] It’s a bad pun, but Gardner used it.

JA: You only did a couple of issues of The Spectre before Neal Adams took over. What happened?

ANDERSON: Irwin Donenfeld got upset. I tried to see Irwin to tell him that I was thinking of taking a job with Will Eisner, but he could never find time to see me. Gerda Gattel was his secretary, and she kept bugging him because I was bugging her, but he still wouldn’t see me.

Time grew short and I needed to tell Will whether I was taking the job or not. I liked the prospects of working with Will, so I took the job.

Irwin got upset with me. He said, “Gee, don’t I get a chance to bid?”

But I had given him every chance I could. Irwin said I wasn’t to be given work at DC. I had to come up and have lunch with Irwin and make

This page from Showcase #56 (May-June Õ65)doesnÕtdepict Dr. Fate or Hourman, but since Jerry G. Bails sent us a photocopy of the original art, we knew youÕdappreciate seeing MurphyÕsexquisite linework on the passing of the torch by the first Psycho-Pirate (from 1940s All-Star Comics #23 & #32) to the 1960s model. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Julie said, “Yeah yeah yeah, okay.” So that was one less character likeness I had to worry about.

JA: I thought your layouts on The Spectre were especially inventive.

ANDERSON: I could do some things there that I couldn’t do on other features. I remember being amused when I went to talk to Will Eisner about a job. I carried the “Spectre” stuff along, and he immediately spotted what I had done.

There was a scene where The Spectre stopped a descending elevator. I’m not sure whether I contributed to the concept of the scene or not, but I remembered that Will’s Uncle Sam had done something similar. Will remembered it, and got a chuckle out of that. I think we talked about it. I was an unabashed Will Eisner fan, anyhow. I never tried to draw like him, but I picked up some stylistic things from him. Lou Fine was a bigger drawing influence.

(Left:) All the early Justice League of America covers have been reproduced a zillion times, so hereÑless obscured than in our previous issueÑis the Sekowsky(?)-Anderson cover of issue #22 (Sept. 1963), as reprinted in the Mexican omnibus Batman comic in 1964. South of the Border, the JLA became ÒLos Campeones de la Justicia,Ó while the Justice Society were ÒLos Defensores de la Justicia.Ó Thanks to Fred Patten.

(Above:) The interior art for the first few years of JLA was by the team of Mike Sekowsky (pencils) and Bernard Sachs (inker), as per this page where Hawkman battles the Crime SyndicateÕsversion of Johnny Quick in #30 (Sept. 1964); reproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Jerry Bails. Script by Gardner Fox. [©2005 DC Comics.]

30

A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson

The memorable team of Jerry Grandenetti (pencils) and Murphy Anderson (inks) produced both the cover and interior art of The Spectre #8 (Jan.-Feb. 1969). Thanks to Bob Bailey for the scans. [©2005 DC Comics.]

peace, and that resolved it. Even though I was working for Will, I got the freelance flow from DC. That took a lot of understanding on Julie’s part, because Will would get unexpected jobs, and I’d have an obligation to do them as overtime.

All of my daytime work was on P.S., and nothing else. When they’d get these other projects in the house—special booklets for the Army—I had to do them as overtime. Since it was overtime, it paid very well, and I couldn’t turn it down. Julie understood that, because my page rate hadn’t increased at DC. He had to work with me on that, which is why I had inking help on some of his stuff. I was doing Hawkman, The Atom, and The Spectre for him, and he got Jerry Grandenetti to do the breakdowns on The Spectre. Julie wanted me to do it, but I just didn’t have the time to do it all.

Joe Giella helped on the inks on a lot of Hawkman. We had worked together before, and if it was a ten-page story, Joe would come over and work with me for a day. He and his wife and Helen and I became pretty good friends, and still are.

JA: What did you think of Jerry Grandenetti’s breakdowns?

ANDERSON: I liked Jerry’s stuff, which was sort of Toth-derived.

Jerry was a nice guy, and was really fast; he could really crank the stuff out. It was designy; it wasn’t realistically done, but it was enough for me to ink it realistically.

JA: Yeah, but you could ink anybody.

ANDERSON: No... I never thought I was very successful on Mike

Sekowsky’s stuff. I thought Mike’s work suffered for it. Even Mike knew that, but he tolerated it. I simply wasn’t that in tune with him. I always thought I would have had difficulty with Kirby’s work, too.

JA: You inked Mike on the Justice League covers...

ANDERSON: Mike penciled the first cover, which I inked. I think he penciled the other Brave and Bold covers, too. Once Julie decided to do Justice League as a regular book, he wanted me to pencil and ink the covers, so I did the early ones. I did them for my standard page rate.

Sometimes they paid an extra five bucks for a cover, but basically they looked upon it as just another page. I spent many hours agonizing with Julie over those covers, though, and I just got the regular page rate.

JA: How did you and Sekowsky work together on the first two JLA/JSA covers [issues #21-22] of Justice League?

ANDERSON: Mike penciled the first one, and I inked it. I think the second one may have been a rough by Sekowsky that I penciled and finished. I don’t think the original concept or composition was mine. On a layout piece like that, I could fix things that bothered me. On finished pencils, I don’t like to do that because it destroys the composition and the way everything works on the cover. You change one thing, and then there’s sort of a domino effect, and everything else has to be changed, too.

Mike’s pencils were usually complete. He was a very good penciler; everything was direct. The only thing was his distortion, which was sort-of based on Alex Toth. He had come to DC from Standard Publications, where everybody had been told to work like Toth.

Of The Spectre And Lesser Lights

Despite his undisputed penciling prowess, some of MurphyÕsmost celebrated work has been his inking of others, be it Mike Sekowsky, Carmine InfantinoÑor Curt Swan. Here, Murphy and Curt (seen at right above) share a smile at a 1978 comicon, in a photo provided by the seemingly omnipresent Bob Bailey. At right is a primo Swan/Anderson page from Superman #233 (Jan. 1971), which Bob reminds us was the Òofficial beginningÓ of the ÒSwandersonÓ entity, though they had been teaming up on covers for editor Mort Weisinger since mags coverdated Sept. 1969, and had begun as the interior art team for editor Murray Boltinoff in Action Comics #393 (Oct. 1970). Script by Denny OÕNeil.ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Mike Burkey. Check out MikeÕsads for buying, trading, and selling vintage art at no less than two places in this issue. He and Bob are both major benefactors of Alter EgoÑand thus, we think, of comics fandom. [Art ©2005 DC Comics.]

31 didn’t do all of the blacks or the feathering—that kind of thing—but things were quite definite. I didn’t have to redraw anything.

Julie told me Jerry was put on the feature because I didn’t have time to both pencil and ink, but I personally think that Jerry had a feel for that material.

He did some really good effects. He had drawn “The Secret Files of Doctor Drew” for Fiction House’s Rangers Comics before coming to DC, so some of his concepts were perfect for The Spectre. DC liked to categorize everybody, to get the most mileage out of a penciler, and also to stretch the look of a book a little further with a good inker.

JA: Why do you think they didn’t publish a Justice Society comic book in the ’60s?

ANDERSON: I think that

Mike was not like Gil Kane. Gil would put the solid blacks in later—very often he didn’t put them in at all—and it got to the point where Gil was asking Julie to have the inker place the blacks. A couple of inkers squawked about it, and Gil agreed to pay them out of his own pocket.

Of course, some of the inkers had a little trouble finding Gil. [mutual laughter] Not that Gil wouldn’t pay, but you had to kind-of corner him.

JA: Getting back to the “Spectre” pencils that Grandenetti did, were they all breakdowns, or did he do some finished pencils?

ANDERSON: His stuff was practically finished. Most of the stuff he did for The Spectre was finished enough. Maybe he

Sheesh! WeÕdforgotten all about MurphyÕssingle solo tale of the Golden Age Flash, which appeared in The Flash #201 (Nov. 1970)Ñ so itÕsgreat that Jim Amash didnÕt!Thanks to Bob Cherry for scans of these two initial pages, in which the original Fastest Man Alive mops up The TurtleÕsgang; Bob Bailey, too, sent us the splash, so our cup runneth over! [©2005 DC Comics.]

32

A Brief Talk With Golden/Silver Age All-Star Murphy Anderson

if you had two group books like that, it would have been confusing to the reader.

Julie thinking about having the Jay Garrick “Flash” as a regular back-up?

JA: Why do you think they gave The Spectre his own series, rather than say, Dr. Fate?

ANDERSON: I don’t know if Julie had any plans for that character or not. Bob Kanigher wrote that story and was familiar with the character, as was I. I enjoyed drawing it, though I don’t think I really got the feel of drawing hippies.

ANDERSON: I think The Spectre was visually a better character. He looked sinister, but not evil. Dr. Fate just had a mask, and didn’t really look one way or another. The Spectre was also a great name, while Dr. Fate was hurt by the fact that there were so many doctors in comics: Dr. Mid-Nite, Dr. This, Dr. That…. I liked The Spectre, and maybe I had some influence on Julie about that. I was for him because he was a dream character to draw. It was fun and interesting, but not that demanding, because there weren’t so many characters involved. I don’t know how people stood working on Blackhawk; that would have driven me crazy. I did draw the whole Justice Society in pin-ups and things like that, but that’s about the only time I drew a lot of those characters.

(Above:) Many comic book fans were surprised a few years back to see Murphy pop up in a couple of newspaper dailiesÑnamely, Tom BatiukÕs Funky Winterbean. HereÕsthe strip from Aug. 14, 2001Ñwhich was printed in color where Bob Bailey picked it up. Looking good, Mr. A.!

(Below:) Since much of this interview focused on the Ghostly Guardian, weÕlltake our leave with this splash from The Spectre #1 (Nov.-Dec. 1967).

Thanks to Bob Bailey for this page, as well. Hey, and did we mention R.C. HarveyÕs2003 TwoMorrows volume The Life and Art of Murphy Anderson? Yeah, we kinda thought we did. [Funky Winterbeam ©2005 North America Syndicate; Spectre art ©2005 DC Comics.]

JA: Did you miss doing The Spectre after you left the book?

ANDERSON: I missed it, but what are you going to do? I was busy with Will Eisner, and he was very good about getting me extra work. I wasn’t hurting financially, but it hurt me that I got cut out of The Spectre like that.

JA: How did you find out that you weren’t going to be working on The Spectre any more?

ANDERSON: Julie just said that he had no freelance work for me. I guess perhaps they felt I might come back if they brought some pressure to bear. Paradoxically, after two years with Will Eisner, I was having problems working on his staff (my problems weren’t with Will), and finally decided that it just wasn’t worth it.

JA: Prior to working for Eisner, were you working in the DC offices every day?

ANDERSON: Practically every day. I didn’t have to, but they gave me a desk in the production department, where there were 15 or 20 desks. I wasn’t on staff, though, and there were no benefits of any kind. There was a move afoot to get insurance for the freelancers, but DC didn’t know how to cope with it. I’m sure Irwin may have thought that I was going to pressure him for that, but I wasn’t.

JA: You did one “Golden Age Flash” back-up in The Flash #201. Was

JA: I always thought that you inked a lot of covers because DC was trying to make your style part of the house style.

ANDERSON: I can see how people could read that into it, but I don’t think it was a deliberate thing.

It’s just that I was available, and they liked the look that I was giving the stuff, so they had me inking other people when I could. I inked quite a bit of Curt Swan for Mort Weisinger in those days; just covers, but only when they had a real deadline crunch. Curt would come in to pencil a cover, then hand it off to me. I would ink it before the day was out, so DC could get a cover out in a day if they had to. On covers, I wasn’t working with some guy’s work that I had to play with and try to fix or change. Curt’s stuff was so professional and well done that all I had to do was ink.

Irwin liked my work; there was no question about that. He even praised me a couple of times.

Sometimes I’d see him down in the parking garage: we’d be waiting for our cars, and he’d say, “I liked that last Strange Adventures cover you did.” Irwin had a theory—and I think most people agree with it— that the cover was the most important thing on the magazine, because that was what the reader saw, and it’s what gave him the impulse to pick it up. Because of that, Jack Adler shot pictures of every cover; he’d line them up and shoot them, then place them in an album so that Irwin could see what was on sale that month. When a comic sold unusually well, they would see if they could figure out what cover elements made it sell.

JA: Carmine Infantino told me that when he did covers for Julie, he would sometimes do two or three roughs, and Julie would pick one.

ANDERSON: That’s basically the way I worked with Julie. I’d make little sketches while we were talking, and Julie would pick one and say, “Work this one up and maybe give me a couple of angles on it.” I’d leave him alone for 15 or 20 minutes while I did that, then come back and let him pick a sketch, or pick elements out of those I made. It was a good way for us to work... and it did work!

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The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part seven

35

“I Jumped At The Opportunity!”

RICH BUCKLER Talks To A Longtime Collaborator About The All-Star Squadron

Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

A

/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Rich Buckler entered the comic book field in 1970 with black-&-white work for Warren Publications, but soon moved on to DC and Marvel, where at one time or another over the years he drew virtually every super-hero that ever was. I distinctly recall that the art samples he showed me at Marvel circa 1971 dealt with a “wild man of the jungle” story and was an amalgamation of an illustrative Al Williamson-style approach with Kirbyesque dynamics—and thus had some of the same appeal of the work of Neal Adams. At Marvel he and I worked together on various series, including the final three issues of my 70-issue run of The Avengers in 1972—several fun tales of the Fantastic Four—and even one story for Conan the Barbarian! When I signed a contract with DC in 1980 and began to develop All-Star Squadron as one of my first projects there, I was fortunate in having Rich as artist—though not for nearly as long as I’d have liked. In my various installments of “All-Star Squadron Chronicles” in A/E, I’ve unavoidably talked about Rich Buckler—so I figured it was high time I talked, on the record, with the artist I Rich Buckler, in a recent photoÑ nicknamed “Rich ‘Swash’ Buckler.” —Roy.

with (below) the BucklerGiordano art that became the Òinterior coverÓ of the 16-page All-Star Squadron Preview included as a free insert in Justice League of America #193, and (right) their cover for All-Star Squadron #1 (Sept. 1981), minus most wordage. Read below how these two pages were probably originally intended for their opposite numbers. [Art ©2005 DC Comics.]

Wein call you?

ROY THOMAS: You and I had worked together before we did All-Star Squadron in 1980. I think we generally liked collaborating, but I don’t have any recollection of having had any major input on artist choices at that stage. I’m curious if you remember how you happened to get the job. Did [editor] Len

RICH BUCKLER: I don’t remember exactly. It might have been Len, or it might have been Paul Levitz, but I jumped at the opportunity! I always like working with you.

RT: Of course, for all I remember, Len and I may have kicked around artists’ names, and if we did, yours would’ve come up.

Anyway—I’ve always had this vague memory that the drawing that was used as the cover of All-Star Squadron #1—the one with Hawkman, Dr. Mid-Nite, and The Atom leaning over the table with all the hero photos on it—was originally supposed to be the “inside cover” of the 16-page free Preview that would be inserted in Justice League of America #193—and that the drawing you did of the entire JSA charging towards the reader was to be the cover of All-Star Squadron #1—but that they got switched around, probably by Len. BUCKLER: Yeah, I remember that vaguely, too. I remember having trouble drawing the one that was for the Preview, because it involved the Capitol Building, and it was a lot of work to do. [chuckles] I didn’t really want to do that one.

36

Rich Buckler Talks About The All-Star Squadron about the two covers, and he responded: “To the best of my recollection, the table cover was my idea, and I believe the ‘changing covers’ [i.e., switching which would go on the Preview in JLA #193, and which on All-Star Squadron #1] was yours. I think we may have toyed with the idea of switching them at some point, but, like you, I really love the table shot and am glad we went with it.” Thanks, Len. —Roy.] BUCKLER: Well, there were a lot of characters! [Roy laughs] You sent me a couple of boxes of photocopied research, which was tremendously helpful. I don’t own all of these books. I remember you saying that cover with the photos might be “too much work,” but I was just willing to throw myself into it.

RT: Because I conceived All-Star Squadron as a combination of new stories, adaptations of Golden Age tales, and events from actual World War II history, I sent you lots of reference—not just for #1, but over those five-plus issues you did, a fair amount of reference material—even books and so forth. Did you ever feel kind-of overwhelmed by it? Some artists I’ve worked with resented being asked to do “research”—by which was generally meant just opening the books or paging through the material I sent them.

BUCKLER: I really appreciated it. Actually, I’m a research nut. In fact,

ÒWell, there were a lot of characters!Ó says RichÑand no one would dispute the point. This Buckler-Ordway chapter splash from All-Star Squadron #3 (Nov. 1981) depicts twelve heroesÑcounting Johnny ThunderÕs Thunderbolt and Danette Reilly, soon to be the new FirebrandÑconverging on the still-smoking ruins of Pearl Harbor. The date is December 8, 1941, the day after the Imperial Japanese attack that DegatonÕstreachery had kept the JSA from preventing. Script by Roy Thomas. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Rick Shurgin. [©2005 DC Comics.]

RT: I would have thought the other one with all the “photos” would’ve been harder.

BUCKLER: No, no. That one was a pure pleasure.

RT: Who came up with the layout? Was it Len’s idea, then you did the exact layout?

BUCKLER: I remember it as your idea.

RT: Mine?

BUCKLER: For some reason, I remember speaking to you on the phone about it.

RT: I would love to think that it was—[laughs]—since that’s one of my all-time favorite covers on any comic that I wrote. The only thing wrong with those covers—which I later had you correct on the two re-creations you did for me—was that, somehow, on both of them, Starman got left off in favor of other characters. For instance, The Shining Knight was in the “charging” scene, as if he’d been a member of the JSA, which he never was. But that was minor.

[NOTE: As this issue of A/E was in preparation, I e-mailed Len Wein

This Buckler-penciled, Ordway-inked, Thomas-scripted fact page features JSA foe Per DegatonÑwhose second past-altering plot was the linchpin of All-Star Squadron #1-3Ñappeared in issue #2. His first, of course, had been in All-Star Comics #35 in 1947. When Degaton had returned in the first Injustice Society tale, in All-Star #37, there were several discrepancies with his appearance only four months earlier, so Roy set the 1981 story in between those two epics, and had fun reconciling them. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, from RoyÕspersonal collection. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ÒIJumped At The Opportunity!Ó

37 me like a Wally Wood influence and I thought, “Oh, that’s good.” Len showed it to me and said, “Don’t worry. The guy’s really good.”

And it wouldn’t be the first time I worked with someone new or even broke that person in.

RT: At one time you had newcomers like George Pérez and Arvell Jones and Craig Russell and different people working with you.

BUCKLER: Right— and Jim Lee. I remember when we did some independent publishing, we published Jim Lee’s first work. I’ve always been open to new people.

And in Jerry Ordway’s case, it was a delightful surprise.

Rich says he especially liked drawing Johnny Thunder and The Shining Knight, both seen with their unique modes of transportation on the preceding pageÑas well as Robotman, shown here in the Buckler-Ordway splash from All-Star Squadron #3, and Liberty Belle, whom they depicted in this pin-up. Also shown on the splash, of course, are Hawkman, Johnny Quick, and Per Degaton; itÕsreproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, provided by Jerry K. Boyd. Thanks to Jerry Ordway for the 1981 Liberty Belle art. The latter was printed in All-Star Squadron #10 (June Õ82):no crack was added to the bell sigil (since the crack hadnÕtappeared in her 1940s adventures in Boy Commandos and Star Spangled Comics), although it had been added in the 1980s stories, starting with Squadron #2. But Roy did have Rich & Jerry give Belle a mask, which she lacked in the Õ40stales. [©2005 DC Comics.]

I remember that, when I worked with you on Captain America: The Medusa Effect, one of the main characters was Nikola Tesla. I didn’t know who Tesla was before that. After that, I became so interested that I got everything I could that was printed on him.

I had a few of the black-&-white reprint comics from that time, on my own. They helped me get into the feel, the flavor of the ’40s. And also, I think I had a lot of reprints of newspaper strip art from around that time.

RT: I felt that, if I was going to ask somebody to draw this comic book that’s almost like a tapestry or a mosaic of early DC history, I’d better be the one who does most of the legwork on it. I figured you were doing enough just to draw it.

BUCKLER: Well, it wasn’t enough just to draw it. For me, it was necessary to capture the flavor of that time period, too, so I worked hard on that—and at the same time to make it a comic for the ’80s, new and fresh and exciting.

RT: That was a tightrope we were always walking. So what were you expecting when Jerry Ordway, as a newcomer, was assigned to ink the book?

BUCKLER: I had no idea who he was. I saw some of what looked to

RT: My recollection is that, when you drew Degaton, who’d been in two issues of All-Star Comics, I was surprised because you drew him six feet tall, and he’d always been drawn as very short. Were you instructed to make Degaton taller?

BUCKLER: I don’t remember. I think probably I was concentrating on the storytelling and characterizing him as imposing a figure as possible.

RT: When you did a “Fact File” pin-up of Degaton, his proportions are more like a guy 5’4” at most. By that time, we’d got it straight, and the copy reflected his correct height.

BUCKLER: I made sure that The Atom was short!

RT: Degaton was a Napoleon type in military garb. Were there any characters, either the JSA or heroes we brought in from other DC and Quality comics, that you particularly liked—or hated—to draw?

Johnny Quick or Liberty Belle or Robotman…

BUCKLER: Johnny Quick was a favorite of mine. I just liked that whole relationship where it’s two characters in one, and—no, I’m sorry, not Johnny Quick. Johnny Thunder.

RT: Johnny Thunder? We didn’t do much with him.

BUCKLER: But I liked him. He was sort-of like the Captain MarvelBilly Batson thing. Robotman was also one of my favorites. And Shining Knight—I love drawing guys on flying horses.

RT: [laughs] Yeah, there’s so many of them. Years later, of course, we worked on The Black Knight at Marvel together, too. What about Liberty Belle, who had that weird outfit?

BUCKLER: Ah, I loved Liberty Belle.

RT: Really? Despite the jodhpurs and all that? That was kind-of unusual. She was like this cross between a strong Barbara Stanwyck and, in her solo stories in the 1940s, Veronica Lake with her peekaboo hair style.

BUCKLER: Yeah, and it was hard to get her to look right at the right angle for the different shots, and I worked at it because I liked the different look.

38

Rich Buckler Talks About The All-Star Squadron upper Midwest. He and Mike Machlan, with whom he worked later.

BUCKLER: Mike Machlan—I also liked his work a lot.

RT: He inked Jerry later.

But how did you feel about not doing the cover of the second issue, when Len had Joe Kubert do it?

BUCKLER: Are you kidding? It was like an atomic explosion, that cover! I remember being very upset and having a couple of meetings about it, even—and nobody could understand why I was so upset. But the thing is, we were starting something new here and I was throwing myself into it completely. Probably anyone else that was available would have found the work involved in doing this project completely overwhelming, (Left:) Joe KubertÕscover for All-Star Squadron #2 was undeniably dramatic, but Rich was understandably upset because he didnÕtget to pencil it himself. and I felt that at least they should allow me to do the (Right:) Rich insisted that KubertÕscover art for issue #3 (see p. 42) not be used, and that he draw his own version of the same scene. Inks by Dick Giordano. JoeÕsversion was utilized, with JoeÕsblessing, as the cover of TwoMorrowsÕnearly-out-of-print covers, so the readers trade paperback Alter Ego: The Comic Book Artist Collection. [©2005 DC Comics.] seeing a new book would have the same artist that RT: Drawing the Liberty Bell on her chest probably wasn’t too easy, had drawn the cover on the inside. There’s at least continuity there, and either. they seemed to have had trouble with that a little further along too. Len and I did not see eye to eye on that. It was almost as if things were being BUCKLER: No, that was hard. Well, the different pants and then the made difficult for me, and that’s why I didn’t stay with the book. boots, they made the difference, and then her outfit. I tried to work out a different attitude for each of the characters, more or less having them RT: I’ll get to that in a second. But I was curious, because the only move a little differently. thing that I remember is that Len told me Joe Kubert was going to do the cover, and I responded, “Well, Rich isn’t going to like that.” I RT: I think that worked out quite well. Because my concept had mean, I love Joe’s work, but— involved so many characters moving in and out of the book, even in those first few issues, did you find it confusing at all?

BUCKLER: I’m a Joe Kubert fan, too, but why do it? I remember pointing out that, see, I wanted very few things in terms of working on BUCKLER: All the more reason to make them move differently and act this book. I was probably not going to be some superstar because of it. I differently and get to know them. These were like actors who were was doing it because I really wanted to do it. They were not overpaying portraying persons that actually existed. I was pretending this way, and me, that’s for sure, so it wasn’t for that. They could at least gave me a it helped me. I never got into casting actors mentally as the characters— few creative concessions. I understood when it had to happen, but but for me, they seem more like real people when I’m drawing them. I usually it was done for some obscure reason and it didn’t make sense. would work out a certain look, and it helped, also, that you had me doing these character sketches.

RT: So how did it come about that they withdrew Joe’s cover for issue #3 and had you do a new one?

RT: Right, we did one sketch of each one. DC wanted them for advertising purposes. Len was coordinating most of that, and he and BUCKLER: I just raised so much hell. I really did. I don’t know what you and I were cooperating. I didn’t have any contact, really, with to tell you. [chuckles] Over creative things, I’m very adamant, you Jerry at first. understand, and very persistent.

BUCKLER: I never met Jerry.

BUCKLER: Nah. It was one of those things. But I’ve admired his work over the years.

RT: In the last issue you drew—#5—we introduced the Firebrand who was the female version of the Quality character, and whom we turned into a sort of female Human Torch, since the All-Star Squadron needed a few more women members. I don’t recall seeing any sketches on that character.

RT: It’s kind-of funny, that you both came from the same area—the

BUCKLER: Yeah, I just drew her in the story.

RT: You never met him at all?

ÒIJumped At The Opportunity!Ó

RT: It was basically the same costume as the original Firebrand’s, except her chest was covered.

Jerry Ordway tells me I was very insistent about her sleeping in the nude. But is that something I asked you to draw, or for him to fix as inker?

BUCKLER: I don’t know, but I’m always up to doing some things that people will somehow find a way to object to later. Maybe I was being a little rebellious.

RT: Those panels got changed at the office, and I wasn’t too wild about that, but no great harm done. A last couple of questions. We were just settling in with the core group of Hawkman and Johnny Quick and Liberty Belle and so forth, using few of the JSAers. In #2 we’d also used Quality’s Phantom Lady….

BUCKLER: Yes, yes. She was a particularly sexy character for those times, and I wanted to preserve some of that, too. I liked that character.

RT: For some reason, I ended up not using her as much as I’d thought I would. I’d brought her in because we needed more women characters—and that may have been what led me to bring in Plastic Man, as well. But anyway, you and I were just settling in with this core team of a half dozen or so heroes, when you left the book in the middle of a two-part story. I was curious as to why.

(Left:) This 1981 illo of QualityÕs1941-43 Phantom Lady has never before been printed; the tinted goggles were added for All-Star Squadron to protect her secret identity. Though the piece is signed (for a fan) only by inker Jerry Ordway, the pencils are by Rich Buckler. The early yellow-and-green-clad heroine was apparently a product of the Jerry Iger Studios. [Phantom Lady TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

(Below:) Somehow she wound up in red and blue, and far sexier, in Fox ComicsÕPhantom Lady from 1947-49, as per this cover for #19 (Aug. 1948). Art was by Matt Baker, one of the best of the Golden AgeÕsso-called Ògood girlÓ artists. BakerÕswork and career will be covered in depth in Alter Ego #47, just three short months from now! [©2005 DC Comics.]

BUCKLER: It wouldn’t be the first time I was frustrated by things like this. In fact, it happened later with Deathlok at Marvel.

RT: Hey, I was gone by then.

Can’t blame that one on me! [laughs] I remember that one of the last things I worked on as Marvel’s editor-in-chief was okaying “Deathlok” and offering a few suggestions on the character, and, soon afterward, I stepped down.

BUCKLER: I can’t remember the circumstances that made me decide to leave, but probably I was embroiled in some problem with the editorial side.

RT: I was just informed

by Len that you’d left, and that the new artist, Adrian Gonzales, was already chosen. I remember Len telling me, “You’re gonna love Adrian Gonzales.” And I did, for the most part— but I’d have preferred that you stay on as penciler.

39

BUCKLER: When it gets to where it’s like a war or a tug-ofwar behind the scenes, then I don’t want to mess with that. I don’t need it. I want to put my energies into positive things and into doing the stories.

RT: The weird thing is that you still wound up penciling, and Jerry Ordway inking, the cover of All-Star Squadron #6, even though you didn’t do any interior artwork.

BUCKLER: That cover probably was done ahead of time.

RT: Len probably had you do the cover first, after looking over the plot. I never saw or heard that there were any interior pages they didn’t use.

BUCKLER: No, no.

RT: If you’d done them, Len would’ve used them, to ease Adrian into drawing the book. So we just had that run of five issues and the Preview in JLA #193, but they were good.

BUCKLER: There were a couple of covers later, and odd things here and there. And I think there was a story a little later in the run….

RT: Yeah! You drew the issue where seven All-Stars fought a Captain Marvel who’d been taken over by the Nazis!

You did the cover, too. It was beautiful. Do you know how you happened to return for that one issue?

The final Rich Buckler/Jerry Ordway collaboration the first time around: the cover of All-Star Squadron #6 (Feb. 1982). The interior art was penciled (in layout form) by Filipino artist Adrian Gonzales. [©2005 DC Comics.]

BUCKLER: That I don’t remember. But it had to be that I just missed doing the characters and I had never really wanted to leave.

40

Rich Buckler Talks About The All-Star Squadron

The absolutely final Buckler/Ordway team-upÑthe classically dynamic cover of All-Star Squadron #36 (Aug. 1984), featuring DCÕssix most popular superheroes, plus those of Fawcett and Quality (if you donÕtcount the nonpowered Blackhawk). Thanks to Jerry Ordway for preserving photocopies of both the penciled and inked versions! Partly because of the heroes featured, this is one of writer/editor Roy ThomasÕfavorite covers of the seriesÑand, considering what Buckler, Ordway, Kubert, Hoberg, and others contributed to its 67-issue run, thatÕsgoing some! RichÕsinterior art for #36 was ably inked

by Richard Howell. [©2005 DC Comics.]

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ÒIJumped At The Opportunity!Ó

41

Hey, now that I think of it, nearly the same thing had happened earlier with The Invaders over at Marvel! You drew the first few pages of the story with The Red Skull that was going to lead into the introduction of The Liberty Legion, and then something happened and Dick Ayers ended up finishing the issue. So you and I have started a lot of ’40s stories that we never quite finished together. But at least we later did those entire series on the Golden Age Human Torch and Sub-Mariner for Marvel! [laughs] Any last thoughts re the All-Star Squadron?

BUCKLER: Actually, this interview reminded me of some things that I’d forgotten, because I don’t carry grudges. I like to just do the work. I remember it was a pure pleasure working on the book. I just put a lot into it, and I know you did, too.

RT: Oh, yeah. You and I, Jerry, and later Mike Machlan and Rick Hoberg and Arvell—several other people. It’d be nice seeing All-Star Squadron collected in trade paperbacks sometime. The Invaders, too.

BUCKLER: There are fans out there that I see at conventions that love All-Star Squadron.

RT: Yeah, I sign a lot of copies, though I don’t get a chance to do any of the current JSA-related stuff—so I don’t follow it. Guess I’m supposed to be flattered that they’ve used my work as the basis of part of what they do now. The original Golden Age comics are the ones I’m interested in—and of course the stuff we did ourselves. [laughs] BUCKLER: Hopefully, one of these days you and I can work on something we’ll actually finish!

RT: Yeah, that’d be nice. Thanks, Rich!

RT: In fact, thanks to Jerry, I have a copy of both your pencils and the inked version of that cover, to run with this interview.

BUCKLER: Oh, that would be pretty cool.

RT: For that story, I wanted to use the biggest heroes from three different companies: DC’s five who’d had their own books, plus Hawkman, who’d been on half the covers of Flash Comics—plus Plastic Man from Quality, and Captain Marvel from Fawcett. That issue worked out quite well. And then you were gone again. [laughs] BUCKLER: Yeah. I don’t recall why.

RT: It was a two-part story. Do you remember having anything to do with the fact that Arvell Jones did the second issue?

BUCKLER: Arvell and I were friends and still are, but I never suggested that he finish anything of mine. He just seemed to be there at the time, probably, and they picked him to do it.

RT: Well, by then, I was the editor, so I made the decision. Arvell seemed a logical choice, because he had some of the same influences as you, including the Kirby.

RICH BUCKLER artist/painter

Art ©2005 Rich Buckler; Spider-Man TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

HereÕsyet another aborted Buckler/Thomas collaboration that the guys forgot about in the interview. In 1984, Rich drew the splash and three other pages in the first issue of the four-part mini-series America vs. the Justice Society (Jan. 1985). They no longer recall why Rich penciled these out-of-order pages, and Rafael Kayanan the rest of the issue. But hereÕsone of those three story pagesÑ a look at six JSAers in early-1940s actionÑas inked by Alfredo Alcala and scripted by Roy T. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Rick Shurgin. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Now available for special commissioned drawings, cover recreations and original paintings.

For Inquiries, please email me at bucklersr@aol.com

42

Special Notice Re: Art Stolen From Roy Thomas

$100 Reward

Please take a good look at these two pieces of original art, r eproduced here from a photocopy and a comic book page.

In 1983-84, Roy privately commissioned Rich Buckler to pencil and Jerry Ordway to ink the re-creation of the cover of All-Star Squadron #1 depicted below. On it, a “photo” of Starman r eplaced that of Captain Triumph on the Buckler/Giordano published version. In 1985 Roy loaned the re-creation to DC Comics for inclusion as a pin-up in All-Star Squadron #50—and it was stolen from the DC offices before it could be returned.

In 1981, artist Joe Kubert kindly sent the original art depicted at right (originally intended as the cover to All-Star Squadron #3) to Roy & Dann Thomas as a wedding gift. In 1988, when (being assur ed of greater safeguards this time) Roy foolishly loaned this piece as well to DC, for use as a story page in The Young All-Stars Annual #1, it, too, was stolen before it could be mailed back.

Anyone who currently possesses either of those pages—which Roy has been seeking by various means ever since their disappearances—should be fully aware that this is stolen art—thieved from Roy personally, even though it was in DC’s custody when it vanished. No matter how long anyone has had it in his/her collection, or what he/she may have paid for it, it should be r eturned to Roy Thomas at once. The $100 r eward (apiece) offered above is intended merely as a token payment for the sender’s trouble, and no questions will be asked or further action taken—no one should expect a lar ger “ransom” to be paid for what is and has always been Roy’ s property.

Please contact Roy at roydann@ntinet.com, by fax at (803) 826-6501, or write to: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135.

Any help in this matter will be gr eatly appreciated. Those two pages are mine, no matter where they are now—and I miss them.

[Art on this page ©2005 DC Comics.]

The All-Stars: From The ’40s to the ’80s part eight

43

“You Put Me Through My Paces!”

JERRY ORDWAY On Working With MIKE MACHLAN & ROY THOMAS On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas Via E-Mail

A

/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Has it really been thirty issues—pushing three years—since the first part of this interview, titled “Inking Comics the ORDway,” appeared in Alter Ego #14? Clearly, super-heroes aren’t the only thing that flies when you’re having a good time. Back then, Jerry spoke of how, in 1980, he landed his first pro assignment under editor Len Wein: All-Star Squadron.

That part of this interview dealt with Jerry’s inking Rich Buckler’s pencils in the Preview insert in Justice League of America #193 and in the five issues Rich drew of the regular Squadron series.

This second segment covers both his remaining stint on the comic, and how he segued over to the new Infinity, Inc. title. As the writer and co-creator of both those series, it was a pleasure to work with Jerry on them, and to re-live those halcyon days in this interview. —Roy.

(Above:) Jerry Ordway with his three children, Rachel, Thomas, and James (the youngest). JerryÕswife, Peggy May Ordway, worked as marketing & publicity director for DC Comics from 1985-90. Photo by his mother-law, Mr. Pat Donath. A family affair!

(Below:) Jerry drew this panoramic twopage spread for the ÒAll-Star SquadronÓ entry in Who’s Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe #1 (March 1985). Of course, it depicts only a fraction of the actual membership, especiallly before Crisis on Infinite Earths thinned the ranks by a half dozen or so heroes by 1986. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ROY THOMAS: How did you feel about Adrian Gonzales, who replaced Rich starting with AllStar Squadron #6?

JERRY ORDWAY: Adrian did a respectable job, though Len’s first comments to me indicated that he thought I would abandon the book when Rich did. I was too new to realize that was the way the game was played. I wasn’t going anywhere, as I would’ve honored my 12-issue contract, anyway.

44

Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. ORDWAY: I inked most of it on a lightbox, working from stats of an already-inked job, from the Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. You cut and pasted that job and wrote a framing sequence that Adrian Gonzales drew. I didn’t want to ink on vellum this time, as my last such experience [on All-Star Squadron #1] had been a nightmare, so I went all-out and redrew it on board, and had fun with the zip-a-tone. Years later, at a DC Christmas party, I met Don Heck, and he told me how much he liked it, so that was gratifying.

RT: With #7 I just began referring to you and Gonzales in the credits as the “artists,” rather than penciler and inker or embellisher. Did you ask for the change, do you recall?

ORDWAY: I’m sure I was relentless with Len in getting credit I thought was due. Remember, DC kept stringing me along about getting penciling work, and I felt I had a lot to prove, so I was pretty touchy about that. I found that, as we went along, I was asked to redraw more and more panels per issue, so I guess that was good therapy for the penciler in me, too.

RT: You did an intended cover for All-Star Squadron #11 with that “alien” facing the heroes, but it wasn’t used. (Joe Kubert did that cover, too.) I used your drawing as a pin-up later. Had you just done that possible cover on your own, or had you worked it out with Len?

This action page, inked and finished by Jerry Ordway, is from All-Star Squadron #6 (Feb. 1982), the first issue with pencil breakdowns by Adrian Gonzales. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the (autographed) original art, courtesy of Michael Dunne. [©2005 DC Comics.]

RT: Weren’t Adrian’s pencils looser than Rich’s? Did Len and/or I have you doing even more changes?

ORDWAY: Adrian was doing more traditional layouts, I guess. They had more structure than much of what Rich did, but had no mood or lighting indicated. As for changes, there were a fair amount asked for, but I liked what the guy did. I also guess, at that point I had become the more important part of the art team, as you and Len looked to me to keep the artwork consistent with the previous five issues.

RT: At this point you began inking the covers, as well, including Rich’s final one on #6.

ORDWAY: I was ready by then, I think, and enjoyed it a lot. Hawkman looked like your favorite Kubert version on that one!

RT: How did you feel about the Joe Kubert covers that began again with #7?

ORDWAY: I was torn, really, because they were great covers, and I’m a huge fan of Joe’s, but I really wanted the whole book to have my stamp on it artistically. I understood Len’s thinking, though.

RT: You also inked the Don Heck-penciled “Steel” episodes that I tossed in from his canceled title. How was Don to ink?

JerryÕsfirst attempt at an All-Star Squadron cover was this sterling art, done for issue #11 (July 1982). It saw print four years later as a color pin-up in All-Star Squadron #65. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ÒYouPut Me Through My Paces!Ó

45

The pages of All-Star Squadron #8-9 which featured a solo flashback starring Steel, the Indestructible Man, were left over from the never-published 6th issue of that heroÕsown title, which had fallen victim to the so-called ÒDC ImplosionÓ of 1978. That tale (splash at left), by Gerry Conway (script), Don Heck (pencils), and Joe Giella (inks), was one of numerous stories distributed to a small, select audience in two house-assembled volumes of Cancelled Comic Cavalcade.

Roy liked the notion of adding a ÒCaptain America typeÓ to the All-Stars; thus, with GerryÕsblessing and editor Len WeinÕsokay, that unused ÒSteelÓ story was serialized over two issues of the new mag, re-inked by Jerry Ordway since the photocopies in CCC were less than pristine. The two new panels at the top of the Squadron page (right) were drawn by Gonzales and Ordway, and written by Roy T. (By the way, thatÕsBritish Prime Minister Winston Churchill smoking the cigar in panel 2.) Roy, however, didnÕtcare much for the name ÒSteelÓ by itself, so at the end of #9 he promoted the hero to ÒCommander SteelÓÑand thus he remained for the rest of the series. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ORDWAY: I just did it, I think, when I was inking the interiors of the book—I’m sure, with your blessing. I sent it in, only to find that Kubert had already turned in a cover for that issue. I was trying to break out of the inker’s rut, and never expected to get paid for it when it wasn’t needed, though you did use it later and I was paid then.

RT: You skipped one issue—#13, which was inked by Mike DeCarlo.

Remember why? Perhaps because you were working on the All-Star Squadron Annual around that time?

ORDWAY: Yes, it was a big job, that one, and also another favorite story of mine that you wrote. I really worked over Adrian’s layouts on that! I think it holds up well, if I say so myself.

RT: I agree with you. In the Annual, you did a pin-up of The Guardian and The Newsboy Legion [see p. 3]. Was this Len’s idea, or yours?

ORDWAY: I think Len threw that to me as a bone, to appease me. I did the cover of that one, as well, pencils and inks. They gave me an Ed Hannigan sketch to work from, and I recall totally finishing it, and then not being satisfied with it, as I was just fighting the layout. Ed’s cover sketches were great, and you could basically just blow them up and ink them on a lightbox, but again, at this time, I was trying to prove myself,

so I did another version, veering more from Ed’s layout, and sent them both in. I’m pretty sure, thinking back on it, that Len used the second one I did [see next page]. I felt I was getting somewhere! I got to do a cover!

RT: All-Star Squadron #14-15 were part of 1981’s JLA-JSA crossover.

Was this the first time you’d worked on the JLA? ORDWAY: Yes, in comic book form. I had drawn them before in fan drawings, and also a coloring/activity book for Golden Books. That had led to my getting work from DC a few years later.

RT: In #16-18 Adrian was inked by Rick Hoberg—then you returned in #19 doing full pencils and inks. Were you off All-Star Squadron for three issues so you could pencil #19? If so, I must’ve done one plot way ahead of time.

ORDWAY: Well, essentially, you plotted ahead on #19, and then wrote #16-18 while I was toiling away on the pencils. I needed the lead time, as the book was running pretty late, and Len didn’t want me starting behind the eight-ball, deadline-wise. I needed that time, too, because I was pretty rusty storytelling-wise, after all that inking.

RT: How did you get Len to give you a shot at penciling the book?

46

Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. inker later, with sketchy or vague pencils.

RT: You both penciled and inked #19-20, the story in which all the All-Stars seemed to die in their dreams. Any particular thoughts about it?

ORDWAY: Well, I ate up my lead time, discovering I couldn’t pencil and ink on a monthly schedule! I had a lot of fun drawing Electro, the robot from the Fair. Also, DC stuck pretty close to the color guides I did for those two covers. It was an emotional story, and I didn’t want to cheat the readers, so I threw everything I had into it.

RT: I’ve always felt the covers for both those issues were extraordinary. Were you happy to finally be doing covers? (What happened to the original art, by the way? Do you still have photocopies of any covers or interior art?)

ORDWAY: I still have them. I remember changing some of the heads on

JerryÕscover for All-Star Squadron Annual #1 (1982). ReproÕdfrom photocopies of the original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Was Adrian leaving of his own accord at the time, or did you force the issue?

ORDWAY: Well, as I stated, DC was giving me the runaround on penciling assignments. While inking All-Star, I started inking the “Huntress” back-up feature in Wonder Woman. Joe Staton was penciling it, and I was told he was leaving in a few issues. Well, I inked two, and then a third, and I asked what was going on, and then had a chance to talk with Staton, who said he wasn’t going anywhere—he loved doing “The Huntress.” I felt burned.

Anyhow, I guess Ernie Colón, who was editing Flash at the time, heard my plight and offered me an 8-page “Creeper” back-up, pencils and inks. I decided that, if I didn’t take that, I’d never get a chance to move up again. I called Len and quit All-Star. He asked me why, and I told him. He then shot back at me, “Why don’t you pencil All-Star, instead?” I was flabbergasted. I told him I didn’t want to bump Adrian off the book, as that was unfair. Len said he would switch Adrian to Arak and keep him busy. I thought about it a second, and said yes.

[NOTE: Arak, Son of Thunder was a sword-and-sorcery title that my wife Dann and I had created at the same time I’d started All-Star Squadron. —Roy.] RT: I must’ve sent you lots of reference about the 1939-40 New York World’s Fair, since in #19 you drew the Four Freedoms statues, Electro the Robot, the Trylon and Perisphere, etc.

ORDWAY: You did send me a lot of reference, but I had the shots of the Four Freedoms in the 1930s volume of Time-Life’s This Fabulous Century series, which I’d been using for reference on period detail anyway.

RT: You had a lot of heroes to draw in #19, since there are a half a dozen or so All-Stars—then eight members of the JSA in captivity.

How hard was it to pencil a book like All-Star Squadron?

ORDWAY: It was a trial by fire, that’s for sure! I have always been a scribbler as a penciler, preferring to finish the drawing in ink. I had to learn on the job to pencil tightly, so that I wouldn’t torture some poor

Jerry still has photocopies of several pages of Adrian GonzalesÕpencil layouts for All-Star Squadron #18 (Feb. 1983)Ñironically, an issue inked by Rick Hoberg, while Jerry was busy working on #19, his first penciling effort. #18 introduced readers to Tarantula, who in the 1940s sported a costume nighidentical to SandmanÕspurple-and-yellow togs. The hammer-wielding villain is ÒFairytalesÓ Fenton, a.k.a. ÒThe Villain from Valhalla,Ó whoÕd debuted as a fake Thor in Simon & KirbyÕsÒSandmanÓ tale in Adventure Comics #75 (June 1942). WeÕdshow you a Simon & Kirby ÒThorÓ page, or even the finished page by Gonzales/HobergÑbut weÕvegotta hold something back for our extended coverage of the Golden Age roots of All-Star Squadron in the trade paperback All-Star Companion, Vol. 2, due out later this year! [©2005 DC Comics.]

ÒYouPut Me Through My Paces!Ó

47

All-Star Squadron. Did this entail much of a change from your viewpoint?

ORDWAY: Well, I liked Len a lot, and still do, but it made my job simpler, as I didn’t have to be the man in the middle, if you know what I mean.

RT: I guess I do, even though I recall Len and me as always getting along well—but an editor and a writer are bound to view some things differently, and we were both pretty strong-willed.

How did the design for Amazing-Man come about?

I only recall having the idea for the name (from my old friend Bill Everett’s early character) and the fact that he was black… a “Negro,” as they said in the 1940s.

ORDWAY: I basically looked to the same source most of the early-’40s artists did—Alex Raymond’s Flash Gordon strip. I cobbled together elements so it wouldn’t look too contemporary, as the book was set in the past. I also did the color design.

RT: Rick Hoberg wound up doing the Amazing-Man origin sequence in the middle of the issue, as a storywithin-a-story. Do you recall why you didn’t do it yourself?

For whatever reason, Roy (or Len?) had Jerry re-draw part of the sequence in All-Star Squadron #19 (March 1983) in which Robotman and Commander Steel tackle the 1939-40 New York WorldÕs Fair robot Electro, which attacks them inside the Perisphere. In the process, these four Ordwaypenciled panels were eliminated. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ORDWAY: Well, it was a story within a story, so it was the perfect spot to get a fill-in to give me a breather deadline-wise. Rick did a swell job, too!

RT: Around the same time, we decided to re-design Tarantula so he wouldn’t look so much like Sandman.

You did the designs on this. Do you recall if it was

#20, looking down on Green Lantern. Also, I used a paper called “Duo-Shade” on that cover, and when Len received it, he said, “It’s beautiful, but production told me to tell you never to use that paper again.”

They had firm rules on coloring, and if you laid the wrong combination of color on the shaded area, it got muddy-looking. My response was to make sure they colored them well. You lobbied with me, and got them to relax their rule. I still love using that stuff, though.

RT: With #21 you lateraled the inking chores over to your friend Mike Machlan.

Why? How do you think it worked out?

(You continued to ink the covers, though—for economic or emotional reasons?)

ORDWAY: Well, Mike and I were friends a long time, and I knew he’d do a great job! I continued to ink the covers for the most part because I really like the idea of doing finished drawings. Though I’ve worked with many great inkers, none of them can read my mind and ink my work the way I do it myself. It’s a personal artistic thing, I guess.

RT: With #21, Dick Giordano, now DC’s editorial head, arranged for me to edit

JerryÕsfirst two coversÑ All-Star Squadron #19-20Ñwere instant classics! On the first, the 1942 Òfighting membershipÓ of the Justice Society are held captive by Brain WaveÑon the other, Green Lantern despairs at the horror of destruction that his Power Ring has unleashed on Japan, in a preview of the atomic holocaust to come 3H years later. Powerful stuff! But all the DC production head could see was that the Duo-Shade tones on #20 were Òhard to work withÓ! Thanks to William Byron, Frank Motler, Bob Bailey, & Peter Hansen. [©2005 DC Comics.]

48

Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc. RT: So am I. About this time, we decided to create Infinity, Inc. together. As I recall, they were supposed to debut elsewhere, but wound up in a time-travel story in All-Star Squadron instead. We covered the creation of Infinity, Inc. pretty thoroughly in Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #1, only it’s out of print.

ORDWAY: The original plan, as I remember, was to have them debut in an issue of DC Comics Presents, with Superman, but Julie Schwartz had no slots open on that title for a while, so it wound up in All-Star, which had a smaller circulation but made for a better story (I think). My memories on all the start-up stuff for Infinity, Inc. are a bit second-hand, as you dealt mostly with Mike Machlan initially, as he was to draw the book with me inking, and I was to draw the America vs. the Justice Society series after leaving All-Star Squadron.

RT: Do you recall being told to draw The Guardian’s head on the bottom of the cover of #25, the first cover with Infinity, Inc.? As I recall, it was to stop Marvel from trademarking its new character of that name—was it in Alpha Flight? [See p.51] ORDWAY: Yeah, I remember we were all mad that John Byrne had the audacity to co-opt The Guardian’s name, and that Marvel was trying to trademark it!

(Above:) OrdwayÕs1982 concept sketch for Amazing-Man. When he and Roy were roommates back in the late Õ60s,comics pioneer Bill Everett, whoÕdlaunched his own Amazing-Man back in 1939 (even before he created The Sub-Mariner!), gave the Rascally One his blessing to concoct a new hero with that nameÑbut Stan Lee would never have gone for it in a modern setting at Marvel. It seemed perfect for a super-hero in 1942, thoughÑand JerryÕsdesign was perfect, too. On a color overlay, Jerry wrote Roy that he was Òreally pleased with this version of the costume! Please disregard other sketch. Please?Ó Roy agreed with JerryÑbut still wishes he had a copy of the earlier one today, just to see what it looked like.

(Right:) The African-American Amazing-Man, alias Will Everett, was introduced in All-Star Squadron #23 (July 1983), with JerryÕs dynamic cover. The only significant changes made in the costume were to substitute a larger a stylized ÒAÓ for the two (yellow) horizontal panels on the concept sketchÑand the added Òflap,Ó ‹ la the early Captain Marvel. [©2005 DC Comics.]

your idea, or ours together, or what, to change his look? Or anything else about my input, or Len’s?

ORDWAY: I remember you wanted to change him because of his similarity to Sandman, and you wanted to use him more and have him have his own identity. I was thrilled to have input into things like this.

RT: I have copies you sent of a number of drawings you did of Amazing-Man and Tarantula. Why’d you do so many (not that I’m complaining)?

ORDWAY: Well, you always worked me so hard! Seriously, as I remember, many times I put something down on paper as a starting point, and then kept coming back to you with changes I made. Tarantula was originally more mysterious, with a full-face mask, modeled after the revamp you and Gene Colan did on Dr. Strange in the late 1960s. You didn’t care for that look, so I kept refining it. I pushed for the brown coloring, though I think Len wanted him purple and yellow or something. I’m glad I won the color battle.

RT: Why did you both pencil and ink the humongous All-Star Squadron Annual #2 in 1983, instead of Mike Machlan doing it? 39 pages—that was a lot of work!

ORDWAY: I guess I just wanted to do it. That, or else Mike couldn’t do it, and I wasn’t secure enough to let it fall into another inker’s hands? I liked that story, too!

Maybe Mike was supposed to be working on the first Infinity? I don’t know for sure.

RT: Was it my idea or yours to re-do the cover scene from All-Star Comics #3 as a pin-up in that Annual?

ORDWAY: Had to have been yours. It’s always fun, though, to reinterpret older stuff.

RT: You both penciled and inked that two-page spread of the All-Star Squadron and Infinity and all the villains that went in the DC Sampler for 1983, didn’t you? [See this issue’s cover.]

ORDWAY: Yes. That was going to be good publicity for the book, as it was given away free at the big summer conventions.

RT: How did it happen that you left All-Star Squadron to do Infinity, Inc.?

ORDWAY: I suspect I was feeling the pressure of drawing all those characters. As I said, I was going to do the JSA mini-series, and probably ink it, as well. I’ve always been frustrated at not being fast

ÒYouPut Me Through My Paces!Ó

49

(Left:) This Gonzales/Ordway page from All-Star Squadron #18 depicts Tarantula as he appeared in the Golden Age Star Spangled Comics, in a costume nearly identical in line and even coloring to the one worn by Sandman after he ditched his gasmask-and-business-suit look. Yep, Sandman even wore a purple cape for an issue or twoÑand TarantulaÕswebgun resembled Wes DoddsÕgas-gun. Even though TarantulaÕsoutfit didnÕthave boots, Roy and Jerry decided the original Òspider manÓ should be re-designed. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Jerry G. Bails. [©2005 DC Comics.]

(Right:) Jerry OrdwayÕsre-design of Tarantula, as per a 1987 drawing done for a collector. WeÕllinclude some of JerryÕsconcept sketches for the hero in The All-Star Companion, Vol. 2. Thanks to J.O. [Art ©2005 Jerry Ordway; Tarantula TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

enough to pencil and ink a book on a monthly schedule.

RT: You continued, I’m happy to say, to do covers for All-Star Squadron for a while, starting with #27. Did you need your arm twisted too much to do this?

ORDWAY: No, it was a fun way to keep doing those great characters.

RT: How come you returned in All-Star Squadron #29 to pencil that origin recap of The Seven Soldiers of Victory?

ORDWAY: I really wanted to do The Seven Soldiers of Victory. I enjoyed drawing The Shining Knight so much in All-Star, too. I was also probably waiting for the JSA mini to get approved or a plot or something, and you tossed me that to keep me busy.

RT: You used tones on the cover of #30. Why, and what, pray tell?

ORDWAY: It was probably the Duo-Shade paper I had used on the cover of #20, and because it was a moody cover scene.

RT: Why do you think Mike Machlan couldn’t seem to get past an artist’s block doing All-Star Squadron, since he would’ve had the regular penciling assignment if he had? He had to be spelled, alas, even on #30 after he drew some very nice pages.

ORDWAY: I can’t really speak for Mike’s motivational problems. I know he was always extremely critical of his work, and would often redraw whole pages if something or other didn’t meet his approval. I think he could’ve been great if he’d gotten a few issues under his belt.

Pushing the boulder up the hill is the hard part. Once you’re moving, it gets easier.

RT: After #32, you decided only to ink Rick Hoberg’s pencils on covers rather than pencil. Was this your idea? How do you think you inking Rick worked out, compared to penciling your own?

ORDWAY: I was probably just too busy at the time doing Infinity, Inc., which had that longer page count, and was drawn on much larger paper than the regular books. I liked inking Rick’s covers. That’s the fun part of inking—you get to see how others approach the same material. It feeds into my own pencils, as well.

RT: You returned to do the intro and conclusion to All-Star Squadron Annual #3 in 1984. Is that why we emphasized Tarantula (as well as Wonder Woman)? God, I wish I’d got hold of and saved that final page, where you drew of all the future US Presidents, and where they were on a particular day in 1941! I was especially happy with that story—except for the fact that the coloring got screwed up and people had green faces on some pages!

50

Jerry Ordway On All-Star Squadron And Infinity, Inc.

Though he didnÕtwind up drawing the double-sized mini-series America vs. the Justice Society, as originally planned, Jerry did do the covers for all four issues. Here, the printed cover of #3 (March 1985) is flanked by the b&w line art (at left) and the overlay, which was color-held in red and yellow (right). The effect was little short of stupendousÑthough The WizardÕscape was added later, and Black CanaryÕsmask was deleted. ReproÕdfrom photocopies of the original art, courtesy of J.O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Jerry returned to draw the cover of All-Star Squadron #50 (Oct. 1985), the first (and double-sized) issue crossing-over with the Wolfman/P”rez Crisis on Infinite Earths limited series. Over the next year, Crisis would write finis to Julie Schwartz and Gardner FoxÕsconcept of Earth-TwoÑand incidentally to All-Star Squadron. JerryÕsÒKirby bubbles,Ó as they used to be called at Marvel, were color-held as gold instead of black on the published cover. On this version, reproÕdfrom photocopies Jerry sent us of his original art, we can see the entire figure of The Spectre; on the printed cover, it was partly obscured by the title logo. Oh, and Jerry also did the cover of issue #60. [©2005 DC Comics.]

ÒYouPut Me Through My Paces!Ó

51

The worldÕsfirst glimpse of Infinity, Inc.Ñon JerryÕscover for All-Star Squadron #25 (Sept. 1983). A few cross-lines and a nucleus were added to the atomic symbol on NuklonÕschest in the printed versionÑand The Silver Scarab was apparently added to the cover as printed only at the last moment. And Jerry and Roy explain, in the interview, why a cameo head of Simon & KirbyÕsGuardian was drawn at bottom right. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Jerry-O. [©2005 DC Comics.]

Frankly, weÕrenot sure exactly where this full-page drawing of the JSA vs.

Solomon Grundy by JerryÕserstwhile partner Mike Machlan was meant to appearÑlet alone if it ever didÑbut itÕsa winner! Jerry believes it may predate MikeÕspro careerÑin which case it wouldÕvemade a heck of an art sample for All-Star Squadron! [©2005 DC Comics.]

ORDWAY: That was a fun story, and it was great to draw Tarantula again. That was also a fun challenge, to basically caricaturize all those public figures. They had to look good and recognizable, or the story lost impact.

ORDWAY: Well, it was a great learning experience for me, as I had to draw more stuff than the average starting artist is asked to do. I built models of Japanese Zeros, as well as US warplanes, and even an aircraft carrier. They were helpful in staging and lighting scenes of war. I grew a lot as an artist in the years I worked on All-Star Squadron, and developed my style looking at the greats of the past. I came away with an even greater appreciation of John Buscema and Wally Wood, two of my idols, after studying Raymond’s Flash Gordon and Foster’s Prince Valiant.

RT: After this, you inked more covers by Buckler and Hoberg, through #39—then came back to ink Arvell Jones’ cover pencils for #41. That was the last one you did, right? Quite a string, though— and I appreciate your continuing to work on the covers so long after you left the interior art.

ORDWAY: I also drew the cover for #50.

RT: That’s right! I momentarily forgot about that. That was a great cover—the start of the Crisis tie-ins. A lot of heroes on that one, too!

ORDWAY: Like I said, it was fun to draw those characters, and I always respected your love for the source material, even when we had differences of opinion on things.

RT: Any particular thoughts about All-Star Squadron or related items?

While you put me through my paces, I’m glad for it now. I don’t think I would have stretched as much if you hadn’t kept on me in that first year. Do you even remember the critiques you wrote? Several single-spaced typed pages per issue? Wow, that was overwhelming to me on my first big assignment. I still have them somewhere. Anyhow, thanks again for including me in Alter Ego! RT: It’s impossible to discuss All-Star Squadron, let alone Infinity, Inc., without wanting to talk to Jerry Ordway about them!

The All-Stars: From The ’40s To The ’80s part nine

From THE CENTURIONS To INFINITY, INC. The Birth Of The Second-Generation Justice Society – 1982-83

by Roy Thomas

I

NTRO: As related in detail in Alter Ego, Vol. 3, No. 1 (Summer 1999), the 1984-88 DC Comics series Infinity, Inc. and several of its durable heroes were born one midSeptember day in 1982 when my wife Dann and I, in New York to present to DC a concept for a new time-travel super-hero comic (very tentatively called Time Titans), took a ferry ride over to the Statue of Liberty. We got to talking, and by the time the ferry returned to Manhattan, I’d decided to push instead for our new idea: The Young Centurions.

It was to star the sons, daughters, and heirs of several members of the Earth-Two Justice Society of America, whose adventures I was already chronicling in All-Star Squadron.

[That very day or the next, I spoke with new DC head editor Dick Giordano about the concept, and he basically approved it at once.

However, Dick asked that I write up a proposal, mostly as a formality, but also to crystallize some of the still-vague aspects of the series; so, a few days later, back home in Los Angeles, that’s just what I did—with substantial input from Dann, the concept’s unofficial cocreator.

[Recently, I stumbled across the following “prospectus,” dated Sept. 20, 1982, which is printed below for the first time ever, despite the fact that I realize I took a bit less care with its actual prose than I should have. I figured it was already a 99%-sure sale, so I didn’t bother polishing it in those pre-PC days. I sent it off to Dick—and, for reasons outlined in the foregoing interview with Jerry Ordway, the group later debuted as time-tossed guest stars in All-Star Squadron #25 (Sept. 1983), the seventh issue of that WWII-set comic penciled by Jerry, and inked by his friend and colleague Mike Machlan. After that storyline was completed in #26 and in All-Star Squadron Annual #2, the first issue of Infinity, Inc. #1 debuted around the turn of 1984, with a March cover date. The comic was one of a new breed to be sold to the direct market only, and to be distributed mostly through comics shops, rather than on newsstands.

While DC owned the concept and characters, creators were given a reasonably decent contractual royalty rate, which wound up being shared by artists/co-creators Jerry and Mike and myself (and, indirectly, Dann). Infinity, Inc.—the title change from The Centurions necessitated by the already-imminent animated series of that name—lasted 53 issues (through Aug. 1988), plus a couple of specials—over 1000 pages of Earth-Two-derived wonderment that, if I can judge from my appearances at comics conventions, is fondly recalled by many.

(Above:) Roy & Dann Thomas in the 1980s, in a pic taken by a professional photographer (as a gift from their friend Jennie-Lynn Falk)Ñwith Roy posed to look taller than Dann, when actually sheÕsohso-slightly the taller of the two. JadeÕs alter ego was named after Jennie, who was DannÕsroommate at UCLA in the early Õ70s.

(Left:) Infinity, Inc., debuted via time travel in All-Star Squadron #25 (Sept.

1983). In #26, six of the new heroesÑfallen under the control of SupermanÕsfoe The Ultra-HumaniteÑwere agonized over by Brainwave Jr. and The Flash. Art by Jerry Ordway (pencils) & Mike Machlan (inks); script by Roy Thomas. ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original black-&-white art, as printed in the comics-news magazine Amazing Heroes #36 (Dec. 1, 1983), not long before Infinity, Inc. #1 went on sale. [©2005 DC Comics.]

[Running across this long-forgotten proposal recently—I’ve learned since that Jerry, too, still has a copy—I became aware that a few statements I made in A/E V3#1 were in error, such as thinking that perhaps Silver Scarab and Brainwave Jr. and Obsidian and even the name Fury had been in our minds by the time Dann and I returned from our daytrip to Liberty Island—or even by the time I wrote the proposal. I now know for certain that they were not.

For the most part, however, the A/E V3#1 account—which this printing of the original document and accompanying art is meant to augment—is an accurate reflection of the evolution of the concept, both before and after Jerry and Mike became involved. In no way, however, is that account and/or this one intended to subtract anything from the artists’ status as co-creators of Infinity, Inc.— which is why, with Jerry’s help, so much of their art is used to illustrate it here.

[Of course, several of the names and concepts in the prospectus will be familiar to readers of today’s DC Comics: Jade—Northwind— Fury (well, Lyta Trevor, anyway—she hadn’t yet been dubbed Fury)—and Nuklon (now Atom Smasher, I’m sorry to say). Although I wasn’t 100% certain of the fact when I wrote the article in A/E V3#1, it’s also definitely revealed that, at this early stage, Dann and I surely had it in mind that the Golden Age Harlequin was to be the mother of Green Lantern’s twin children!

[As you’ll see, Jerry and Mike were already under consideration as artists (by Dann and me, anyway) when I wrote the proposal, and they were officially piped aboard very shortly afterward. From that point on, the four of us worked together; but at the time the prospectus was written, they knew only what little I’d told Jerry about it—without bothering to get DC’s OK in advance. Except for

From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc.

53 The CENTURIONS (perhaps the “Young” is a bit too pandering, after TEEN TITANS and NEW MUTANTS and the like) would be a group of young super-heroes who grow out of, are sponsored initially by, and are a modern-day version of the original JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA— which itself would continue to exist in the JLA/JSA crossovers, as well as costarring/guest-starring in CENTURIONS.

Mike MachlanÕsoriginal pencil layout for the cover of Infinity, Inc. #1 (which is seen smaller at right) utilized as background Jerry OrdwayÕstake on the 1940 JSA cover of All-Star Comics #3, done earlier as a pin-up for All-Star Squadron. Note that the positions of all the Infinitors except Nuklon, Silver Scarab, and Power Girl have been altered, and Brainwave Jr. has been added.

The Machlan-penciled, Ordway-inked finished cover was seen larger in Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #1 (Summer 1999). WeÕllhave to reprint our long-out-of-print first issue one of these fine days. Thanks to Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]

correcting a few typos and stylistic matters, the proposal is presented just as I typed it out on my electric typewriter at the time, though I’ve omitted one gratuitously offhand and dismissive remark to Dick about the opinions of a major artist—not anyone, I hasten to add, with whom I ever worked in comics, before or after.

Naturally, I’ll chime in with a few 2005 comments in the captions for the illos that accompany this piece— none of which appeared in the same form in A/E V3#1. So let’s plunge right into my enthusiastic if not always polished presentation, sent to Dick Giordano on or about Sept. 20, 1982. This proposal is ©2005 the respective copyright holders; Infinity, Inc. TM & ©2005 DC Comics. —Roy.

Prospectus for New CENTURIONS Series Hopefully, this will serve as a more formal version, while still necessarily very tentative, of the series discussed by Dick Giordano and myself (Roy Thomas) on Sept. 17, 1982, under the name THE YOUNG CENTURIONS. Basically, this would be a title which would carry forward the idea of the “Aging All-Stars” or “Aging JSAers,” as it’s been called. Since Power Girl and the Huntress, both characters with a certain following, are already related to the Earth-Two Superman and Batman, I simply carried that process a step further.

The first “saga” would be a ten- or twelve-part thing even if the title is not introduced as a maxi-series, and would deal with these young heroes getting together, perhaps to prevent World War Three (a subtle tie-in with ALL-STAR SQUADRON there). Over the course of the initial Saga, as I’ll call it, we’d not know precisely who the membership would be at the end. A couple of heroes would drop out or even get killed along the way—a young villain might turn good, a young hero turn evil—a new character be introduced—until by the final issue of the first Saga we had our lineup. (The book would not, however, have nearly as large a cast as ALL-STAR SQUADRON—maybe ten or so heroes/villains who’d be possibilities, with a final cast of six to eight CENTURIONS from then on.)

Hopefully again, the book would not glut the market already making a success of TEEN TITANS, X-MEN, NEW MUTANTS, LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES. It’s not that I myself want that young a crew of heroes, but Power Girl and Huntress are, I guess, in their early 20’s…and the other heroes couldn’t be older than that, though we would perhaps avoid ever calling them “teens” or such. I’m less interested in the “hip” aspects of such a book than Marv or Chris may be, but of course the book will take place in the 1980s.

I would hope I could have maximum flexibility on exact membership (besides Power Girl and Huntress) during the first Saga, so we could see which heroes the readers like best. This was done on XMEN when an early Wein/Cockrum X-Man, Thunderbird, was killed off only a few issues into the series, with similar effect to the killing of Junior Juniper in an early SGT. FURY. As I said above, the heroes of the JSA would make appearances in the early issues, but they won’t be members—whole idea is to get a “new generation” of heroes to take over from the old. Sort of a Jim Shooter type idea without the wholesale slaughter aspect.

Besides POWER GIRL and THE HUNTRESS, assuming DC does indeed want them used, here are a number of suggestions for the other members, although of course you, an artist, and I can work on more later if necessary. I’ve included a reason for liking each: MikeÕssuggested re-design of Power GirlÕs costume, which never came to pass. YouÕllnote he also used it in his cover sketch for Infinity, Inc. #1, seen above. Thanks to Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]

54

The Birth of the Second-Generation Justice Society – 1982–83

(Left:) By far the most obvious choice for the mother of Green LanternÕstwin offspring in The Centurions/Infinity, Inc. was Molly Maynne, alias The HarlequinÑwhich is what Roy T. later wanted readers to believe, till the truth was revealed in Annual #1. All of the numerous 1947-48 ÒGreen LanternÓ stories featuring The Harlequin were written by Robert Kanigher and penciled (if not necessarily inked) by Irwin Hasen, as per this splash from All-American Comics #94 (Feb. 1948). She also guest-starred in 1948Õs classic All-Star Comics #41, with script by John Broome and art by Hasen and others.

(Above:) Rose (from the ÒRose and the ThornÓ stories in two ÒFlashÓ tales in late-1940s Flash Comics) was eventually elected by Roy to motherhood status re Jade and Obsidian, instead of The Harlequin. The basis was these two final panels from a third, never-published-by-DC tale in the series, in which Green Lantern made a unique cameo. Thanks to editor E. Nelson Bridwell, its last two pages had finally seen print in Lois Lane #113 (Sept.-Oct. 1971). Various black-&-white pages from the 12-page story were seen over the course of Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #4-14. Script by Robert Kanigher; art by Joe Kubert. Thanks to Robin Snyder, whose fine magazine The Comics! preserved this minor masterpiece. [Both pieces of art ©2005 DC Comics.]

(Below left:) We didnÕtwant to repeat any precise art that appeared in A/E V3#1, so youÕllhave to track down a copy of that 1999 issue for the original Machlan/Ordway pencil designs of Nuklon, Jade, Fury, NorthwindÑeven The Blue Dolphin and male Harlequin! However, Lyta TrevorÑt he future FuryÑhad recently made her debut in the giant-sized Wonder Woman #300 (Feb. 1983). Therein, Earth-OneÕsWonder Woman dropped in on Earth-TwoÕsSteve and Diana Trevor and their high-spirited teenage daughter. Script by Roy & Dann Thomas; art by Ross Andru & Dick Giordano. Thanks to Mark Cannon and Shane Foley for the photocopy from a b&w Australian reprint. Roy's original proposal called for turning Lyta into a villain! [©2005 DC Comics.]

(Right:) When newcomer Todd McFarlane became the penciler of Infinity, Inc. with #14 in 1985, he brought his own unique style to the title. Since Roy knew Todd loved baseball, the writer/editor concocted a flashback of Lyta and other future Infinitors playing a sandlot game as kids for #27 (June 1986), and Todd really ran with it!

ThatÕsyoung Rick Tyler, destined to become the second Hourman, pitching.

Inks by Tony DeZuniga. [©2005 DC Comics.]

From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc.

55

Although an early Machlan/Ordway design (seen in A/E V3#1) depicted a ÒSandmanÓ who was a visual precursor of Obsidian, we didnÕthave room there to print the two above sketches, which show the final evolution of JadeÕstwin brother. (Sorry about any pencil lines that have dropped out, but this is the best copy Jerry Ordway still has.) MikeÑafter the usual collaboration with Jerry over drinks in a bar, where the two of them drew sketches on cocktail napkins, as related in A/E V3#1Ñsubmitted the two left-most drawings. A note asked Roy if maybe the symbol (on the chest of the figure with the inked head) was Òtoo much?Ó As per RoyÕshand-scrawled note back (to Jerry, with whom he was in more regular contact), the artists were asked to Òcombine head and boots of figure on right with rest of figure on leftÓÑand Obsidian was born!

Only, not quiteÑÕcause look at the seven names Roy scribbled on the sketch (over some sort of description of the cowl by Mike)Ñand youÕllfind ÒObsidianÓ conspicuous by its absence! Seems to us it may have been Dann who suggested that the name ÒObsidianÓ would be a good pairing with ÒJade.Ó At right is a slightly later drawing of the fully-realized Obsidian, done entirely by Mike. Thanks to Jerry for photocopies of all three concept sketches, which are: [©2005 DC Comics.]

(1) An adopted son of the Earth-Two Atom, who is—as opposed to the two Atoms extant—about seven feet tall, and atomically strong. He would either be named something like NUKLON/NUKLAR, or STONEWALL. He may be the son of the character upcoming on cover of ALL-STAR SQUADRON #21, who has a costume not unlike the late-40’s Atom.

(2) Two twins, one male, one female, who are the daughter of the Earth-2 Green Lantern and Harlequin (who got married briefly and disastrously after the early ’50s, when last seen in Nelson’s Mr. & Mrs. Superman series). This will differentiate series from other groups a bit, I think. I’m pretty flexible in my own mind about who they should be, but my idea would be to not have them share like powers. I prefer idea of a male HARLEQUIN, perhaps, with black-and-white harlequin outfit and a “bag of tricks” approach, as well as his mother’s illusionglasses… while the girl might be named JADE (or JAYD), and she has green hair and possibly green skin as well. Due to magic feedback from the Power Ring, Jade can throw GL-type bolts from her hands. So the son inherits powers from the mother, the daughter from the father. I’ve got more worked out, but that’s enough for now.

(3) (or 4, if you count the twins as two) LYTA. This is the daughter of the Earth-Two Wonder Woman, introduced in WONDER WOMAN #300. She wouldn’t become one of the heroes, might even become a villain—but ought to be around, as should SANDY (Sandman’s young buddy, who was in suspended animation for years, so has a ’40s

outlook), ROBIN (as adult), maybe BLACKWING (from current Huntress stories), even Earth-Two SPEEDY or STAR-SPANGLED KID if you like.

(4) BOBCAT. Daughter of Wildcat, along the lines of what Gerry and I proposed before, and Gerry’d share ownership of that one with me, natch. She’d have retractable claws, and real catpowers, unlike her father. Skintight black outfit.

(5) THE BLUE DOLPHIN (or just DOLPHIN). Daughter of the (dead) Earth-Two Aquaman, or even granddaughter…with lesser powers, since a dolphin can’t breathe under water. DC needs another underwater type, and this duplicates no powers except Aquaman’s.

(6) SHOCKWAVE. Wouldn’t want this to interfere with our JONNI THUNDER, so probably it’s out, but an Earth-Two heir (female or male) to Johnny Thunder would otherwise be good. If JONNI THUNDER came out first, which seems unlikely, we could have JONNI THUNDER take place on Earth-Two and have her join, though she seems more a loner.

(7) SILVER STREAK. Good old name for a speedster type, but wouldn’t be a regular since TEEN TITANS has Kid Flash. Too many speedsters around now, but he’d make a good villain, perhaps—or guy who dies.

(8) NORTHWIND. In the ’40s Hawkman met a city full of bird-

56

The Birth of the Second-Generation Justice Society – 1982–83 I just didn’t want him to hear about it elsewhere and feel passed over, as that’d be a sure way to lose him on both books. Do you think six months after ALL-STAR SQUADRON #19 introduces Jerry’s pencils we’d be able to sell a direct-market book with him? Or what? Hope we can soon discuss this.

Now, as to names: CENTURIONS suits me best, I guess—though YOUNG CENTURIONS has youth appeal, and CENTURIONS OF JUSTICE keeps the “justice” word in. Other possibilities—CHAMPIONS OF JUSTICE, YOUNG CHAMPIONS (despite Marvel’s old CHAMPIONS title), or even YOUNG J.U.S.T.I.C.E., with each letter standing for something.

I’ve listed them more or less in the order of descending appeal to me, and at the bottom we’d have—THE JUNIOR JUSTICE SOCIETY (just kidding).

One final thought: Any chance of starting this off with a bang with a BIG issue, maybe a GRAPHIC NOVEL to kill two contractual birds with one stone? At the very least, I would like the final of the ten- or twelve-issue first Saga to end with a double-issue, and I would like this to be written into our contract on the book. Naturally, I would share some royalties with the

Roy was startled to read, upon finding this 1982 document, that it mentions the Jonni Thunder, a.k.a. Thunderbolt concept on which he, Dann, and Dick Giordano (as artist) would collaborate two years later. That four-issue miniseries, with 1985 cover dates, merged the genres of super-hero(ine) and Raymond Chandleresque private eyes. Jonni later appeared in several issues of Infinity, Inc., including #24 (March 1986), with this cover by Denys Cowan (pencils) & Dick Giordano (inks). ReproÕdfrom a photocopy of the original art, courtesy of Fred DeBoom. [©2005 DC Comics.]

people (see FLASH #71, 1946). My idea is that one of these mated with a Canadian, and produced one of DC’s first Canadian heroes. In some way, I want him not only to be a natural birdman…with Hawkman as a sort of guardian over the years…but have perhaps cold-producing powers to justify the name, or else create a different character. He’s a halfbreed, and can’t pass for human—but a guy with golden feathers can’t be all bad. If you look up FLASH #71—this guy would have a human face, probably, not a beak, unless you feel he should—or an artist figures out a way to make him handsome or at least interesting anyway. Take a peek, and let me know, please.

Anyway, you get the idea, Dick. If we can, naturally, I’d love to start on this right away.

I should tell you that, in all fairness, I spoke with Jerry Ordway about this. He’d love to do it, figuring he could lay out CENTURIONS and ALL-STAR, working with Machlan and perhaps Hoberg or someone else. But he understands a “big-name” artist may be hauled in;

Dick and others at DC mustÕvethought Roy was nuts, if they perused the ÒHawkmanÓ story in Flash Comics #71 (May 1946) in the companyÕslibrary of bound volumes, as suggested in the proposal. But of course, as stated there, the new young hero called Northwind would not have a bird-beak like pure-bred Feitherans in that story! Art by Joe Kubert; script probably

by Gardner Fox. Thanks to Al Dellinges. [©2005 DC Comics.]

From The Centurions To Infinity, Inc.

A 1990s photo of Mike & Eve MachlanÑ courtesy of themselves.

Another concept pencil illo by Machlan for a possible Centurion (JadeÕstwin?) was the one above left. At some time, Roy drew a rough pencil design for a character he christened ÒMr. BonesÓÑa sort of combination of the costume of NedorÕs1940s Black Terror and, perhaps, the visible-skull approach of MarvelÕscycle-riding Ghost Rider (whom Roy had co-designed with Mike Ploog and Gary Friedrich a decade earlier). Using RoyÕscrude sketch as a basis, and adding the thigh-high boots, Mike delivered the great drawing above right, which saw print in an issue of Infinity, Inc.Ñthough it was left to newcomer Todd McFarlane to become the first artist to draw Mr. Bones in a story, as part of the oddball Ònuclear familyÓ called Helix. [©2005 DC Comics.]

(Left:) The Silver StreakÑnamed after a super-speedster whoÕd had his own comic book from 1940-42ÑdidnÕt even come close to making the cut; but perhaps his name helped midwife the birth of The Silver Scarab, a.k.a. Hector Hall, son of Earth-TwoÕsCarter and Shiera Hall (Hawkman and Hawkgirl).

(Right:) Also not in the proposal, but on the scene by the time of All-Star Squadron #25, was Brainwave Jr., son of the Golden Age JSAÕsmostoften-fought foe, Brain Wave.

Mike designed this potential new outfit for him (and dropped the ÒJr.Ó)Ñbut Roy decided to stick with the Ric Estrada-designed costume that a transmogrified Brain Wave himself had worn in 1976Õs revived All-Star Comics #58.

Both pencil drawings by Mike Machlan; thanks to Jerry Ordway. [©2005 DC Comics.]

57

58

The Birth of the Second-Generation Justice Society – 1982–83

(Above:) A/E V3#1 showcased the inked version of this two-page Infinity, Inc., pin-up, which ran in All-Star Squadron #28Ñso here are Mike MachlanÕs pencils, before Jerry-O inked them. By then, the ÒBobcatÓ character conceived by Roy and Dann as the daughter of the original Wildcat had mutated first into ÒThe LynxÓ (an orange-costumed Canadian)Ñthen into a Mexican-American lass called ÒLa GarroÓ (ÒThe ClawÓ). By the time she actually appeared in Infinity, Inc. in 1985, she had simply become the new Wildcat. WeÕveheard she was murdered in a comic a few years back, but not to worryÑÕtwas only a clone who died! Trust us on this. (Incidentally, the reference to ÒGerryÓ on p.

55 is because Roy and his then-screenwriting partner and fellow DC scribe Gerry Conway had proposed a female Wildcat as a solo character even earlier.) [©2005 DC Comics.]

creators of Huntress, Power Girl…but otherwise it’d be like a new title, unlike either ALLSTAR SQUADRON or TEEN TITANS. And no, I wouldn’t push for an annual in the first year it’s published, but I do think it’d be a good title… and would then be willing to wait till second year of contract to do the ORIGINS thing we discussed.

[NOTE: Wouldn't you know we'd close on a mystery?

I have no idea precisely what the reference to "ORIGINS" means in the last sentence of the proposal. Since I know I came up with the idea for a new-material revival of DC's Secret Origins title on a cross-country drive in 1984, it can't be that... can it? —Roy.]

ÒHail, Hail, the Gang’s All Here!Ó All ten of the heroes whoÕdstar in the first few issues of Infinity, Inc. were featured in the great Machlan/Ordway illo at left, which became the cover of Amazing Heroes #36. It also saw print in 1988ÕsInfinity, Inc. Annual #2.

Thanks to Jerry for both photocopies. [©2004 DC Comics.]

In Memoriam

59

Joe Buresch (1916-2004) An InterviewÑAnd A Tribute

by Jim Amash Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

N

OTE: Joe Buresch passed away recently, only a short time after this interview was conducted by telephone, and before it could be put into print. Thus, we are presenting this interview as a tribute to the late artist. Joe’s comic book career only lasted a couple of years, but I found it particularly interesting because of his working relationship with Comics Magazine Company’s William Cook, and Joe was willing and eager to tell us how it all worked. I didn’t know much about his career, and if it weren’t for writer David Hajdu (author of Positively Fourth Street, among other works), I would have missed the chance to talk with Joe entirely. His cartooning career spanned parts of eight decades, so for those of you who, like me, didn’t know much about him, here’s a brief look at his career. —Jim.

Joe Buresch with his daughter Linda Jean, circa 1955-56Ñflanked by a Rodney Thompson cover for Comics Magazine Co.ÕsDetective Picture Stories #4 (March 1937), on which both Joe and one ÒBill EisnerÓ are heraldedÑand one of JoeÕsCy’s Super Service strips from decades later. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.]

JIM AMASH: I’d like to know a little about your early days.

JOE BURESCH: I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on December 24, 1916. My family were all florists, and I’m the only one who didn’t take to the greenhouse business. I caught the drawing bug at about fourteen.

I took a correspondence course in cartooning with the National School in Cleveland, Ohio. Ralph Hershberger owned it. After that, I attended vocational school for two years, but that was strictly commercial art. I didn’t even graduate, because I started to make some money cartooning.

I quit school, and I’ve been at it full-time ever since.

I started cartooning professionally in 1935, drawing a comic strip called Detective Nehi and Skihi. It only appeared in one California paper and some Mexican papers. I didn’t make much money from it.

In 1936, I began to sell different kinds of comics. When the hillbilly craze was on, I created “Hezzy of the Hills” and “Bumps of the Bluegrass.” Those are collectors’ items now. They were drawn strictly for magazines.

JA: I have you working for Centaur Comics from 1936 to 1938.

BURESCH: I knew them as Comics Corporation. I worked for Bill Cook, who hired me, and was very patient with me. When I wrote my first story for him, he only gave me one big criticism, which consisted of several pages. [laughs] After that, I got along well. I was only 19 at the time, and he was editor of the magazines. He started out with Funny Pages, and then along came Detective Picture Stories and Western Picture Stories. I guess he was in his early forties at the time, but I never met him. I mailed my work in from Pittsburgh. I occasionally went to New York to visit editors, but that wasn’t until later. At first, I just mailed in samples to get work. They paid $5 a page for a 7-page story with nine panels per page, including the writing and lettering.

JA: What was the first thing you did for them? I have three possibilities: “Hezzy of the Hills,” “Jimmy and Jean,” and “Roadhouse Racket.”

BURESCH: Yes, I remember those. I first did a page or two—what they called a double truck—for Funny Pages, and that’s what got me into the rest of the magazines. I don’t recall which feature it was. I drew strictly in a humor style. No illustrations; you wouldn’t even call it semicartoons. It was strictly humor. I was never given any direction; I was able to write and draw what I wanted to, and created all my features.

JA: How did you work with them? Did you write to Bill Cook and say, “I have an idea for a series,” or...

BURESCH: No, I thought up a story, penciled it, inked it, and mailed it in. I rarely had any contact with anyone at the company. They didn’t know I was creating new series until they opened my mailed packages.

JA: Here are some of the features we have you listed as doing: Kid Kallahan,””Buck Bush,” “The Caveman Cowboy,” “Double Trouble,” and “Pat O’Day.” BURESCH: I don’t remember “Kid Kallahan”; somebody else did that.

I don’t remember doing “The Caveman Cowboy” or “Pat O’Day,” either.

JA: When you did these characters, did you have any thoughts about keeping the rights to them?

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BURESCH: [laughs] No, never thought about that.

14 years, I created a 4-H feature for farm papers. I put Fletcher the 4-H’r together with Dinah Mite and sold them as a package; so many per year for a certain amount of money.

JA: Were you married at the time?

BURESCH: No, I was single, and working at home.

My neighbors didn’t know what I was doing, and probably thought I was a bum, just loafing. [laughs] I was always pretty quiet; I never mingled much.

Another syndicate picked up The Sporting Thing, which I later changed to Outdoor Mini-Tips. It gave handy suggestions Two Dinah Mite daily panels from January 1961, and one of JoeÕsFletcher the 4-H’r panels, starring a modernabout hunting, JA: Why did you day farmboy. He sold the two series as a package. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.] fishing, and everyquit working for thing outdoors, with them? a little humor thrown in. That ran for about four years, and then I included it in my sales of Dinah Mite and Fletcher the 4-H’r to BURESCH: There was a rumor going around that Parents Magazine weeklies. thought the comic books were too violent, and I understand that the comic books just faded away because of that. I can’t prove it, but that’s JA: You said you sold collections of these strips to papers starting in what I heard. Then, of course, the comics drifted back again. I didn’t go 1966. How long did Dinah Mite run? in for creating characters like Batman and Superman, though; my stuff was really just humor.

BURESCH: I dropped all of that during the elder Bush administration, JA: How did you come up with your stories? Did you write them before drawing them?

BURESCH: I took long walks, then jotted down roughs, then penciled and wrote dialogue as best I could, then inked it in.

JA: After that, you went back to doing syndicated strips. Here’s what I have you doing: Cousins in 1939, Cowboy Joe in 1937-38, Crosby’s Country Cousins in 1939-42.

BURESCH: I don’t remember Cowboy Joe at all. I got in touch with the Crosby Syndicate, and they wanted a gag panel and a strip. I thought, well, these strips are being syndicated to the farm papers, so he must have a good list of papers that he works for. I did both the panel and the strip, but nothing much came out of them.

in 1989, I think. I did Fletcher from about 1967 until ’89, and The Sporting Thing for about the same span of years. After I stopped syndicating the package, I went into gag cartoons. In fact, I’m still doing some today. I’ve also been doing a monthly comic strip called Cy’s Super Service for an industrial magazine since 1978. The publisher of the magazine is Barks Publications.

JA: Did you ever miss doing the comic books?

BURESCH: Oh, yes. Those were the best years of my life. I enjoyed comics more than anything else. I didn’t make much money at it, really, but $5 a page wasn’t too bad back then, and we’d grind them out. When the comics were all dropped, a cartoonist friend of mine in Missouri told me how to get into the trade papers. Otherwise, I probably would have stayed in comic books.

JA: You must have seen other publishers’ comics on the racks then. Did you try to get work from any of them?

JA: Do you remember doing Jimmy Rivers in 1937?

BURESCH: That sounds familiar, but I can’t remember doing much of it.

BURESCH: No, they kept me busy at Bill Cook’s outfit.

JA: Was comics just a way to make money, or was it more personal?

JA: Were you influenced by any other artists?

BURESCH: Wash Tubbs by Roy Crane was my greatest interest. I always thought he was one of the best. Some of my comic drawings resembled his stuff, I suppose. I have his very first strip here in a magazine. I’ve been throwing away material lately, and that’s the only thing I’ve kept.

BURESCH: No, I was determined to get started at something and then get into syndication, but syndication put me off until I created Dinah Mite in 1952. It was picked up by Editors’ Syndicate in New York, and they sold it to quite a few papers.

After about four years, they hadn’t made enough money at it. I blamed them for having no salesmen on the road. They just had the man in the office in New York, who told me they had no salesmen.

They were going to drop it, so I started syndicating it myself. I did a little better: the strip ran from 1952 until 1966.

When I stopped drawing Dinah Mite for the newspapers after

JA: What keeps you interested in cartooning today?

BURESCH: I just want to keep my mind a little active. When I do this strip, it takes me back to the comic book days, so I enjoy doing it.

A sample of Joe BureschÕsstrip Outdoor Mini-Tips. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.]

In Memoriam

61

Kin(1911-2003) Platt Vince Fago Called Him ÒARenaissance ManÓ

by Dr. Michael J. Vassallo

I

’m sad to report, albeit late, that Kin Platt, one of the Golden Age’s most accomplished humor writer/artists and later an award-winning author of juvenile literature, died in Los Angeles on December 1, 2003, at the age of 91.

The list of Mr. Platt’s accomplishments is voluminous and touches upon almost every area of creativity from caricaturist, radio writer, animation writer, and comic book writer/artist to TV writer, juvenile book author, and sculptor. What follows is a career timeline that will hopefully shed some light on this talented man.

Sadly, the closest any of us at Alter Ego have ever actually ÒseenÓ of Kin Platt is the above (self-?) caricature that appeared in Stan LeeÕs1947 book Secrets behind the Comics. Since Stan referred to him as the Òclever pencillerÓ of Rusty Comics, hereÕsa splash page from issue #18 of that mag (cover-dated Aug. 1948).

Doc Vassallo, who supplied most scans that accompany this tribute, says the inker is almost certainly Violet (later Valerie) Barclay, who was interviewed in Alter Ego #33. [Caricature ©2005 Stan Lee; Rusty art ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

the first Lantz animated short made in 3-strip Technicolor.

Platt also has a writing credit on Lantz’s “The Sleeping Princess” (1939) and while data is sketchy, also seems to have worked for Paul Terry’s Terry-Toons, although I have not been able to confirm this.

Kin Platt was born on Dec 8, 1911, in New York City to Daniel and Etta Platt. While his early life is unchronicled, it is known that Platt ran away from home by the age of 7 and began drawing early in life, constantly copying cartoons and reading voraciously (The Hardy Boys, Jack London and others). His career seemed to begin in the 1930s, when he drew theatrical caricatures for theatre publications. The mid-1930s saw him writing radio comedy for Jack Benny, Burns and Allen, Stoopnagle and Budd, Ken Murray, and The National Biscuit Comedy Hour of 1936. By the end of the decade Platt was writing for the Walter Lantz studio, being credited as a writer on the animated short “A-Haunting We Will Go” (1939), the final installment in the “L’il Eightball” series, which was

From here Platt enters the fledgling comic book industry, drawing and often writing a multitude of features for Nedor/Better Publications from 1939-43, while working in the Sangor Shop in 1942-43. Features at Nedor/Better Publications (which would become Pines and later Standard Publications) include “American Eagle,” “Black Terror,” “The Mask,” and “The Sphinx” (in Exciting Comics), “Captain Future,” “Dan Duffy,” “Detective Sgt. Burke,” “Diamond Dust,” “Doc Strange” and “Woman in Red” (in Thrilling Comics), “Droopy Man,” “Happy an’ Snappy,” “Happy and his Pappy,” “Harvey,” “Jimmy the G-Dog” (in Real Funnies), “Kid Kangaroo,” “Lion and the Mouse,” “Mister Mule” and “Rip Rabbit” (in Real Funnies), “Tommy Dolan,” and “Uncle Fuzzy.”

In addition, for Nedor/Better, Platt also created “Super Mouse” in 1942 (as writer/artist), a feature that would be his most enduring comic book creation. The story of the origin of the creation of Super Mouse is tied in with Paul Terry’s Mighty Mouse, an animated character (allegedly created by Isadore Klein) who debuted with the name “Super Mouse” on Oct. 16, 1942, in the Terry-Toon animated short “The Mouse of Tomorrow.” Paul Terry would soon change his character’s name to Mighty Mouse, and the historical reasons are twofold. First, it has been said that National Comics, the publisher of Superman, was not happy with the blatant parody of its franchise character. But secondly, and possibly more importantly, another “Super Mouse” had already appeared, almost concurrently, in the Oct. 1942 #1 issue of Coo Coo Comics, written and drawn by Kin Platt. The October cover date places the newsstand appearance of “Super Mouse” in the late summer, actually slightly predating the release of the Terry-Toon. Rather than promote a similar character, Terry Over the past few years, Kin Platt turned down Jim AmashÕsand Roy chose to change his ThomasÕrequests for an interview, but at least he was content to sign character’s name. Many much of his comics work (with his first name). NedorÕsReal Funnies references state that Nedor’s #1 (Jan. 1943), from which this splash is taken, came out during the “Super Mouse” was created height of the funny-animal craze in comics. Thanks to Doc V. [©2005 by an unnamed former the respective copyright holders.]

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Terry-Toons employee.

This would appear to be Kin Platt. Is there a literal connection between the two? We’ll probably never know for certain.

At any rate, “Super Mouse” was the first ongoing funny-animal series in comics and enjoyed a long and successful run as a character till 1958. The Terry-Toons hero Mighty Mouse would eventually make his comic book debut in Timely’s TerryToons #38 (Nov. 1945), making for an awkward circle between Platt leaving Paul Terry and By the time NedorÕsSuper Mouse began to be then creating “Super truly cover-featured, Doc V. suspects Kin Platt Mouse” for Nedor; Terry was long goneÑbut perhaps he drew the small releasing its own “Super illo of his super-powered rodent on the cover of Mouse” and later rechrisCoo Coo Comics #1 (Oct. 1942). [©2005 the tening the character respective copyright holders.]

“Mighty Mouse”; Platt working for Timely, which later licensed Terry’s “Mighty Mouse” for its Terry-Toons comic book (without Platt, of course).

Platt also did some work for MLJ, including the “Mugsy” feature, and for Fawcett on “Buck Jones” in Master Comics, before going over to Timely, where Martin Goodman had just begun to add humor titles to his successful super-hero line, just as Stan Lee was going into the armed services and former Fleischer Studio animation artist Vince Fago succeeded him as editor-in-chief.

Cover-date April 1942 saw Timely adding Joker Comics #1 and Comedy Comics #9 to its schedule. This was followed by Krazy Komics #1 (July ’42) and Terry-Toons #1 (Oct. ’42), a title with some characters leased by Timely from Paul Terry. The need for artists who could do slapstick humor and anthropomorphic funny-animals at a frenetic pace was ably filled by Platt, along with colleagues such as Vince Fago, Al Jaffee, David Gantz, Jim Mooney, Moe Worthman, Frank Carin, Ed Winiarski, Ernie Hart, and Mike Sekowsky; later contributors were Milt Stein and Joe Beck. Krazy Komics, Terry-Toons, and later Comedy Comics were unique in that those magazines contained contents pages listing contributing creators to these issues.

While the credit designations were often vague and done in a joking fashion, they nevertheless give historians a unique window into exactly who was there, and allow art identification to zero in on a small, easily identifiable group of creators.

On these contents pages, Platt’s name makes its first appearance simultaneously in the Jan. 1943 Comedy #13 (as “layout designer” with Frank Carin, Al Jaffee, and Dennis Neville) and Krazy #5 (as “animation superintendent” with George Klein, Mike Sekowsky, Ed Winiarski, and Al Jaffee), then as “animation director” in Terry-Toons #6 (March ’43) up through #13 (Oct. ’43). In Terry-Toons the credit is likely a scripting one, as Platt’s art is nowhere to be found in these issues. Platt as a definitive identifiable artist debuts in the aforementioned Comedy #13 (Jan. 1943) on the “Widjit Witch” feature, an 8-page Adolf Hitler parody written by Stan Lee and signed by both Lee and Platt. Platt continues as this feature’s main artist into 1944 and drew installments in All Surprise #1 (Fall/43) and Comic Capers #1 (Fall 1944), two short-run titles that were a dumping ground for funny-animal inventory, as Goodman was notorious for flooding the stands with redundant magazines.

The next definitive Platt Timely feature we see is “Puffy Pig,” in Comedy #14 (March 1943). “Puffy” was also dumped into later shortrun funny-animal titles, and some of Platt’s stories seem to appear in Funny Frolics as late as 1945.

The last definitive Timely Platt feature is “Floop and Skilly Boo,” again in Comedy. Vince Fago created and drew that feature’s debut in #13 (Jan. 1943); Platt’s version is in #16-17 (June & July 1943), with Platt’s tiny hidden signature on the splash of #16 and the last page of #17.

This is not the last word on Kin Platt’s Timely funny-animal career. I feel he may have drawn the “Sharpy Fox and Pookey” entry in Krazy Komics #12 (Nov/43), a feature usually drawn by others, including David Gantz. He also may have drawn some “Billy and Buggy Bear” entries in Krazy in 1944.

Additionally, the notes I made a few years ago while indexing these books with Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr., and Hames Ware say that the “Snappy” feature in Krazy #5 & #6, “Toughy Tomcat” in Funny Tunes #16, as well as select “Super Rabbit” entries in All Surprise and certain “Gandy and Sourpuss” stories in Terry-Toons, are also suspects. And, lastly, further study needs to be made on two other features: “Skinny Bones” in Krazy Komics in 1943 and “Super Baby” in both Krazy and Comedy in 1943-44. “Skinny Bones” had at least two different artists during his run, and the second bears a resemblance to Kin Platt, especially the splash page in Krazy #13 (Jan. 1944). The same goes for “Super Baby”: some entries appear to be Platt inked by another artist, perhaps Pauline Loth; other entries may be all Loth. It becomes really difficult to be certain about these. Platt’s name appears on the contents page, and all other listed artists with definitive styles are taken up in other features.

Could there be other unnamed artists? I’d say yes. Joe Calcagno is a possibility.

In this ÒWidjit WitchÓ story from Comedy Comics #13 (Jan. 1943), Kin Platt and Private Stan Lee teamed up to bring Hitler into TimelyÕs humor comics. Thanks to Doc V. [©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

As to exactly when these Timely features were done? That’s hard to pin down, as Platt spent much of 1943-46 in the U.S. Air Force Transport Command, serving in the China[Platt continues on page 64]

In Memoriam

63

Rudy Palais

(1912–2004) He Never Minded How You Pronounced His Name

by Jim Amash

R

udy Palais’ art career started almost exactly at the beginning of The Great Depression. He was doing art for a display shop, then gravitated to Warner Bros., where he painted movie posters. In 1940, after a series of other art-related jobs which included painting B-movie posters for Columbia Pictures, Rudy began drawing comic books for Jerry Iger’s shop.

Rudy stayed at Iger’s for approximately eight months before deciding to work directly for Quality Comics. Rudy himself could not recall which Quality features he drew for Iger and which ones were done directly for Quality, but he worked on several series, including “Stormy Foster,” “Doll Man,” “Black Condor,” “Blackhawk,” and “The Ray.” He also penciled a couple of stories for Reed Crandall, though they were probably done while Rudy and Crandall were Iger employees.

Rudy worked for a variety of companies, and did not remember some

of the places he is credited as having worked.

He must have liked companies whose names began with the letter “A,” because there are a lot of them in his resume: Ace Periodicals (“Captain Courageous,” “Magno and Davey,” “Unknown Soldier,” etc.), Ajax/Farrell, ACG, Archie (romance stories), Aviation Press, and Avon (“Rusty and Dusty,” “Mike Strong,” etc.). Branching out to other letters in the alphabet, he also worked for Famous Funnies, EC (Modern Love, War against Crime), Fawcett Publications, Crestwood (crime and Westerns), Fiction House (some of which must have been done while working for Iger), Hillman (“Black Angel,” crime, sports, and Westerns), Holyoke (“Cat-Man,” “Captain Aero,” among others), Timely, DC, Fox Publications, Charlton, Orbit, Parents’ Magazine, St. John, and several others, to boot.

(Top:) Rudy Palais, in a photo taken in 1993 at his Connecticut home, with a framed copy of his cover for Choice Comics #3 (1942), published by Great Comics PublicationsÑand two pages he drew for somewhat later comics. (Left:) The splash of one of two stories Palais drew for Charles BiroÕsCrime Does Not Pay #44 (March 1946)Ñwith thanks to Jim Amash. (Right:) One of several Palais ÒDr. Mid-NiteÓ stories appeared in All-American Comics #97 (May 1948). Thanks to Craig Delich & Jerry Bails for the ID. [Photo ©2005 Charlie Roberts; CDNP art ©2005 the respective copyright holders; Dr. Mid-Nite art ©2005 DC Comics.]

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However, Rudy’s fame rests more on the work he did at several other companies: Gilberton, Lev Gleason Publications, Harvey Comics, and Comic Media. He spent several years contributing to Gleason’s Crime Does Not Pay, where he was the visual designer of the book narrator, Mr. Crime. At times his work seemed rushed, but Rudy was developing an idiosyncratic style along the way. He experimented more and more with layouts, slanted panels, and a mixture of low and high angles, creating a feeling of vertigo that heightened his manic storytelling. He’d draw a big figure in the foreground of a room and use deep perspective to make the interior setting seem smaller than it would actually be, creating a claustrophobic atmosphere to unsettle his readers. Nobody, nobody, ever sweated as much as the people in Rudy Palais’ stories! It was enough to make the reader want to wash up afterwards.

Rudy’s horror stories teemed with gargoyles, demons, ghosts, and various societal fringes. His villains were as anatomically twisted as their minds, their exaggerated facial expressions mirroring the evil within.

Even innocent victims were drawn as though they had hidden pasts. In comparision, the Classics Illustrated work that Rudy did under editorial restrictions was staid in storytelling and dramatics. However, his meticulously researched stories were faultless in execution and very popular with readers.

[Platt continued from page 62] Burma-India Theatre and receiving a Bronze Star. The Timely work all could have been done in early 1943, then been published through 1944, as Platt seems to mostly vanish from Timely after that. Around this time, he also authored an unpublished musical, Let Freedom Ring.

Following the war, Platt drew the syndicated strip Mister & Mrs. for a long run into 1963. He also was writer/artist on the Duke and Duchess syndicated strip from 1950 to 1954. By the end of the 1940s he was back in the comic book industry, doing a handful of Better/Nedor features such as “Happy Hare” and “Buster Bunny,” and then back again at Timely, this time in their teen titles. Platt shared the duties on the “Cindy Smith” character with “Cindy’s” main artist Ken Bald in 1947. He also penciled the “Rusty” feature in 1947-48 (it can be found in #18 for Aug. 1948), with much of the inking done by Violet Barclay. He drew Willie in 1947 and had a short run on Georgie in 1949. With this, Platt seemingly left comic books. The rest of the 1950s are particularly undocumented except for the two syndicated strips, although Platt did spend time as a newspaper staff artist and cartoonist.

By the early 1960s, Kin Platt entered the world of animation writing and scripted for Hanna-Barbera (on Top Cat and later an episode of Jonny Quest), for Hal Seeger on Fearless Fly and The Milton the Monster Show, and for early1960s Terry-Toons shorts. He also was back penciling for DC comics in 1963 on romance tales in Girls’ Love Stories and scripting war stories in G.I. Combat, Star Spangled War Stories, and as a writer/artist in Our Army at War in 1963-64.

Platt’s last major career credits are the reason he is best remembered by the world outside comics. Starting in the mid- to late 1960s, he began a long tenure as a best-selling children’s and teen’s book author, producing nearly 40

Fortunately for friends and family, Rudy was nothing like the characters he portrayed in his horror and crime stories. He was a proud, private man who appreciated his fans. Like many other Golden Age comic book artists, he looked at his profession as a way to make a living and be creative at the same time. If not for comic fandom, I doubt that he would have given much later thought to his comic book days. I don’t mean to imply that he didn’t care about the work he had done, but Rudy’s career far outlasted comics, and until fandom rediscovered him, he had intellectually moved on with his life.

I’ve heard a lot of different ways to pronounce his last name. I always said “Pa-lay,” because that seemed the most likely choice. One day, while Rudy was recounting a previous conversation with a friend, I noticed he said his last name was “Pal-lee.” I asked him why he never corrected me, and he replied, “It really doesn’t matter.”

Well, it mattered to me. Rudy wanted and deserved respect, and a man like that should have his name pronounced correctly. I liked him as much as I respected him, and am glad to have known him. I’m just happy I never ended up in one of his stories! Rest well, Rudy.

[Jim Amash’s interview with Rudy Palais, conducted some time ago and being edited by Rudy at the time of his death, will appear in a near-future issue of Alter Ego.] books through 1992 in such series headings as “Steve Forrester Young Adult Mysteries” (The Blue Man in 1961 and others), “Max Roper Adult Mysteries” (The Body Beautiful Murder and six others), the “Big Max” series, the “Chloris” series, and three novels for an adult audience.

Platt also authored at least two entries in the “Three Investigators” series under the pseudonym Nick West. His writing awards and honors are many, including the Mystery Writers of America’s “Edgar” award for juvenile mystery, the Distinguished Book of the Year Award, The Southern California Council on Literacy for Children and Young People (for Chloris and the Creeps in 1974), and an award for outstanding contribution to children’s literature, from Central Missouri State University in 1986. Lastly, in 1973, Hanna-Barbera co-produced a film based on his 1968 novel The Boy Who Could Make Himself Disappear. The film, titled Baxter, starred Patricia Neal and Britt Ekland There is one last comic book credit appearing in the early 1970s. Platt adapted three classic novels for Pendulum Press: The Call of the Wild, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and Dracula, in 1973 and 1974. In 1976 Jekyll and Hyde was published as the first issue in the Marvel Classic Comics series, with beautiful artwork by Nestor Redondo.

PlattÕs1976 novel The Body Beautiful Murder featured a cover which may utilize an early Arnold Schwarzenegger photoÑbut the back cover featured a selfcaricature of the author. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.]

A lifelong friend of fellow animation veteran and Timely colleague Vince Fago, Platt spent his retirement occasionally working on projects with Fago, the exact nature of which I do not know. My knowledge of this is gleaned from Fago during a visit in Vermont in 2001. Vince spoke of Platt in glowing terms, calling him a Renaissance man, able to do anything, and recalled him as a wonderful comic book artist who was unsurpassed in his ability to depict the fast-paced energy of his four-color creations.

Kin Platt is survived by one son, Christopher.

[All art on pp. 65-69 is ©2005 the respective artists. Batman & Superman TM & ©2005 DC Comics; Wilbur TM & ©2005 the respective trademark & copyright holders; The Phantom TM & ©2005 King Feaatures Syndicate.]

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Ike Quiz: Answers!!

Okay, gang! Let’s see how you did! Just like last issue, we’re printing the original comments that appeared in the book under the artist’s drawing—followed by our own updates in italics. The artists’ signatures accompany the Ike drawing on this page and the next.

A. Bob Kane: As is obvious, Bob Kane draws the comic-book character, Batman, which he plugs in his contribution to this album. Batman is one of the comic-book figures who specialize in taking the law into their own hands. (It’s been rumored that Mr. Kane had, on rare occasions, employed other artists to draw his strip.

However, when we asked Mr. Kane’s most frequent ghost, Sheldon Moldoff, about this Batman picture, he stated that this Bob Kane drawing was indeed by Mr. Kane. And I’ll bet you thought we were tossing you a trick question!)

B. Wayne Boring: [Boring] currently draws the newspaper version of Superman, in which a troop of artists and writers have had a hand since it was originated by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster. They brought it out in 1938, after Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, and other strips had created a new wave of popularity for pictorial fantasy fiction. (Wayne Boring is considered by many to be the classic Superman comic book artist of the 1950s. Of course, the compilers of President Eisenhower’s Cartoon Book managed to misspell Joe Shuster’s last name.)

C. Carmine Infantino: Infantino caught the only frown recorded in the quick sketches made of Mr. Eisenhower. There is an obvious difference of opinion between him and the other artists as to the degree of the President’s baldness. (They call this a frown? But anyway, note how Infantino cleverly used the first letters of his first and last names to form Ike’s chin! Carmine illustrated comic book heroes like The Flash, Adam Strange, and Batman before becoming publisher of DC comics in 1971.)

D. Irving Novick: [Novick] is an illustrator for national magazines. (A man of few words, Irv’s comic book career began in the early days of comics. He illustrated numerous MLJ titles, co-creating the first patriotic super-hero, The Shield, in the process. His DC work included stories for Bob Kanigher’s war titles and a long stint on “Batman,” beginning in the late 1960s.)

E. Jerry Robinson: [Robinson] has done various assignments in the cartoon field. He is probably best known for his work on the Jet Scott daily strip. (Among his many comic book credits, Jerry also cocreated The Joker and ghosted many of the early “Batman” stories for Bob Kane. Looks like Ike was surrounded by “Batman” artists—past, present, and future!)

F. Bob Oksner: This free-lance cartoonist formerly did the drawing for the newspaper comic strip that reversed the usual procedure in that it was based (with permission) on a TV comic series, I Love Lucy. (Bob is best known for his DC humor comics, including The Adventures of Bob Hope and The Adventures of Jerry Lewis. And, to keep our “Batman” thread going, Bob even drew Batman/Jerry Lewis crossover for the 97th issue of Jerry Lewis in 1966. And let’s not forget his beautiful work on “Supergirl” and “Lois Lane”!)

G. John Spranger: The detective hero of Leslie Charteris’ stories, The Saint, is transferred to story-strip form by Spranger for the New York Herald Tribune Syndicate. (During the ’40s, John had helped illustrate The Spirit and Plastic Man, among other titles.)

H. Henry Boltinoff: Boltinoff has a weekly strip, Sunday Morning Giggles, in the New York Herald Tribune and other papers. He is the editor of an anthology of college humor, The Howls of Ivy. (Henry also produced innumerable comic book “fillers” like “Casey the Cop,” “Moolah the Mystic,” and “Super Turtle” for various DC comics in the ’50s and ’60s.)

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I. Frank Thorne: [Thorne] is now the artist half of the team producing the melodrama strip Dr. Guy Bennett for newspapers. The text is written by Dr. B. C. Douglas. Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, was an earlier work of his. (Frank’s comic book work includes beautiful art for Mighty Samson, [Son of] Tomahawk, Red Sonja, and his own creation, Ghita of Alizzar.)

J. Richard Rockwell: Richard Rockwell’s work appears in comic books, as well as other media. (Rockwell’s comic book career included art for Charles Biro’s crime comics in the 1950s. However, he is best remembered now for assisting Milt Caniff on his Steve Canyon newspaper strip for years.)

K. Irwin Hasen: [Hasen] contributes gag cartoons to national magazines. In addition, he collaborates with Gus Edson on the new strip, Dondi, for the Chicago Tribune-New York News syndicate.

(Before co-creating Dondi in 1955, Irwin illustrated a number of DC features, including “Wildcat,” “Green Lantern,” “The Flash,” and “The Justice Society of America.”)

L. Wilson McCoy: [McCoy] is the artistic half of the team responsible for the King Features Syndicate daily and Sunday strip, The Phantom. It is written by Lee Falk, who doubles as author of the strip Mandrake the Magician. (Wilson McCoy’s comic strip work has been reprinted in comic books.)

M. Gill Fox: [Fox], who first won notice with cartoons in the Washington Daily News, is the artist of the strip Wilbur for General Features Corporation. (During the Golden Age, Gill’s comic book work included stints on The Spirit and “Torchy” for Quality Comics. But we’ve no idea why Gill mistakenly referred to his strip Wilbert as Wilbur!)

That’s all, folks! We hope you enjoyed our two-part Ike-fest! If you named ’em all correctly, you’re a better man than I! But it’s fun trying, isn’t it? Once again, our thanks to Ray Cuthbert for assisting us in the production of this month’s column.

Next month… something completely different. Be there!

Till next time…

Missing a Back Issue?

Got a hole in your Mr. Monster collection? We’ll gladly e-mail you a free Mr. Monster EEEK-Mail Catalog! Just Contact Michael T. Gilbert at:

mgilbert00@comcast.net

For a printed version, send one dollar to Michael T. Gilbert, P.O. Box 11421, Eugene OR 97440

Title Comic Fandom Archive

71

Tales Calculated To Drive You….

ODD!

Part Two Of An Interview With STEVE & DAVE HERRING Editors Of Odd, FandomÕsForemost Humor Publication In The 1960s

by Bill Schelly

L

ast issue, we featured the first half of our interview with Steve and Dave Herring, who in the 1960s published (and largely wrote and drew) the parody fanzine Odd, which had been inspired primarily by EC and Harvey Kurtzman’s early Mad. We resume at the point where the brothers, who got together with a tape recorder, were recounting an oral history of Odd, reading our questions and responding to them on an audio tape, which was duly transcribed by Brian K. Morris.

STEVE: Next comes the question, “How did you guys divide the tasks in producing Odd?” I think, as Dave has kind of indicated, he actually started this up on his own and then I joined in to help at some point early on.

But Dave was the entire art department, production department, and editorial department of Odd. When I began contributing, I did have some editorial input, probably because I was older than Dave and he tells me that I might have actually made an investment in a ditto machine at that time.

Have anything further to say about dividing tasks?

DAVE: I did most of the first few issues, anyway. I did most of the writing and drawing and everything. I was glad to get Steve’s contributions with some of his own stories. He wrote the little humorous essays, and little strips, and so forth. Then we started to have other contributors.

STEVE: Dave was, of course, primarily an artist. He did writing, too.

When I joined, I did some artwork, but liked the dialogue and the situations and the ideas. I kind-of saw myself as the Harvey Kurtzman type who did more writing than art for Mad. During much of that era, I was away at college and leaving Dave unchecked to do the things that he did.

When did material from others start appearing in Odd?

A 1965 photo of Steve (on left) and Dave Herring (on right), with fan-friend and Odd contributor Jay Kinney. Above are the covers of Odd #7 and #9, with their comics-parody covers drawn by Dave. [Art ©2005 Dave & Steve Herring.]

DAVE: Looking through my personal copies of the fanzine—I did save at least one copy of each issue for myself—I could see that, all the way through #6, just about everything was done by Steve and myself. It wasn’t until #7 that we introduced an outside artist who did an entire comic strip. It was “Dumb-Devil” by Steve Sabo. After that issue, one or two of the major comic strips were done by contributors, rather than us.

STEVE: “What were some of your favorite fanzines?” I have a very vague recollection of fanzines. Dave got closer to them.

DAVE: Yeah, at the time I guess I subscribed to some zines. My memory isn’t too clear. I know that some of the guys who contributed to Odd, who were really into it, published their own zines. Jay Kinney, who did contribute some stories to Odd later on, was a big fan and he was into humor and he published own zine called Nope, which I believed I printed for him. Marv Wolfman had his own fanzine for a while. I had started a serious super-hero fanzine for some reason—It really wasn’t my thing—called Super Adventures, and Marv took over publishing it after my first issue or two. But other fanzines—I’m looking through my box of what I’ve saved over the years and I don’t really find too much. I’ve saved some other fanzines that I had contributed to and I do have the first five issues of witzend, which was really a pro-zine.

By the way, just as an aside, at the time I was corresponding with Marv Wolfman and other fans via audio tape. I called the compilation of audio reports from different fans “The Voice of Fandom.” I think I still

72

An Interview With Steve & Dave Herring He was a completely bald guy with glasses and he even had a crack in his head. We went a step further and had a little sign protruding out of the hole in our character’s head.

STEVE: “What do you consider the highlights of Odd, specific strips or features, etc.? When you look back at Odd, does it seem as funny to you now as it did then?” Looking back and trying to remember highlights, I guess the first thing that came to my mind was how we would try to come up with a feature called “The Typical Odd Reader of the Month”, which was a one-page portrait of something pretty horrible. Every month, or every issue, we tried to top the grotesqueness of the previous issue, an escalating challenge. I do remember that in our various stories and the artwork, we seemed to feature a lot of toilets. I’m not sure why, but I’d have to say that toilets (Left:) The cover of Odd #1 was printed last issue, so hereÕsthat of #2Ñan homage of sorts to Harvey KurtzmanÕs ÒItÕsMelvin!Ó cover of Mad #1. (Right:) ÒDum-Devil,Ó drawn by Steve Sabo for Odd #7, was the first strip in the were perhaps our signature motif fanzine in which the brothers Herring had no hand as writers or artists. [Odd #1 cover ©2004 Dave & Steve Herring; and running through Odd. It’s all Dum-Devil art ©2004 Steve Sabo.] still funny, to me, for its intended level. And as Pee Wee Herman may have some of those tapes. showed us, childish, juvenile humor never dies, and that’s really what it was.

STEVE: Okay. And Bill writes, “From what I gather, you didn’t care for Mad magazine edited by Al Feldstein. Did you regularly read it or was it something that you only saw occasionally?” We were very much involved with the magazine when it first started. We were excited about the changeover to that format and subscribed to it for many years. So the interest didn’t switch off just due to the format change. They still had parodies and many of the artists, but it didn’t have the color and it lost some of the key creative contributors that were so important to the comic book. Eventually, our interest waned.

DAVE: Right. Yeah, when it converted to a magazine, at first, it was still very good because Harvey Kurtzman was still there for a while. I’m not sure how long he lasted after it became a magazine, but it was a while.

But when he left and Bill Elder and I believe Jack Davis left, Mad just wasn’t as funny any more. It just wasn’t as witty.

STEVE: Okay, let’s move on to Bill’s question about the fanzine’s mascot, The Odd Bomber. “How did The Odd Bomber character develop?” This is something that, looking back, seems embarrassing and so politically incorrect now with all the terrible things that are going on.

But you have to realize the concept of terror-bombing in the ’50s was very remote. At the time, it seemed fair game for humor, I guess. [laughs] In the early 1950s, there was a case of one man who did plant bombs throughout New York City. It happened to be just a disgruntled Con Edison employee. It was big news at the time, and the press dubbed him “The Mad Bomber.” So, in our never-ending quest to mimic all things Mad, in our comic Odd, we came up with The Odd Bomber— although I’d have to say as far as appearance and general theme, it was more of the mad scientist model than the terrorist model that we used for that character.

DAVE: Right. I just happened to be looking through some of these old Mad stories and I think I’d seen where some of the inspiration for his appearance might have come from in Mad #5. There was a comic strip called “Outer Sanctum,” Bill Elder’s strip, and there was a character in there [chuckles] whom we probably fashioned The Odd Bomber after.

The cover of Odd #6 featured ÒThe Odd Bomber,Ó as seen at the lower left. [©2004 Dave & Steve Herring.]

Tales Calculated To Drive You... ODD (Part Two)

73

only thing that remains from them is the poor, fading pages. I wish I had saved the original masters. But the photo-offset stuff we did save ,and I have the original artwork for all of that stuff, for what it’s worth.

STEVE: Now our magnum opus, #12, the culmination of all these years and years of work…. I mainly remember one highlight, namely “The Count.” Of course, because I wrote it! At the time, I had a couple of part-time jobs at the New York World’s Fair in Flushing Meadow, there in Queens. I distinctly recall working on “The Count” on the bus on the way to work. But this was really Dave’s finest effort and I’ll let him speak to it.

DAVE: We wanted to go out with a bang. I guess I knew I wanted this to be the final issue, so I splurged and did the whole thing as photo offset, not just the cover. And in the back of my mind, one of the reasons for doing this was because—in my naiveté—I thought this would impress publishers and comic book companies and help me get a job somewhere. That’s one of the main reasons that I did it, and as I said earlier, I sent copies to a lot of comic book companies and publishers.

For the most part, I got nicely worded rejection letters. [laughs] I did get a few interviews in New York and I went through that whole New York experience.

The all-offset Odd #12 was fun to do. I still have, believe it or not, a number of copies of that. When I had it printed in Natick, there’s a printer there that did that. I just didn’t assemble all of the pages that were printed, so I have a limited number of copies of Odd #12. If anyone is interested, they could contact me and I would probably sell them. I think I also have a few copies of Odd #11 that I might be willing to part with.

STEVE: So we come to Bill’s question, “Why was Odd #12 your last issue?”

DAVE: It was our last issue primarily because it was time for me to get on with my life and find serious employment somewhere. [laughs] That didn’t work, but a year later, I got drafted anyway, so that was the beginning of a whole other thing.

Last time, we showed the cover of Odd #12Ñthe final issueÑplus the first two pages of ÒThe CountÓ story insideÑbut we thought the splash page deserved to be printed bigger, to show off all the humorous detail Dave put into the drawing. [©2004 Dave & Steve Herring.]

DAVE: Yeah, I remember the toilet, the “Goodbye, Cruel World” as the guy was flushing himself down.

STEVE: Okay, then Bill’s asking about our contributions to other fanzines. Well, mine are nil, so let’s get to Dave’s stuff, and the big question about his serious super-hero strip, the “Black Falcon” strip: “Why did it appear in the relatively obscure Fandom’s Special, rather than something like Star-Studded Comics?”

STEVE: We loved that. [Dave laughs] We had a decal with that on it in our bathroom.

DAVE: To me, most of the highlights were when we went to photo-offset printing. I think that’s when we were really trying to get good artwork, at least on the covers. But first, one issue, I think it was #7, we started doing offset photo covers and we started doing wraparound covers so not only the cover would be good artwork, but so would the back cover and we’d do these little comic strips on the back cover. So I think those were, artistically, some of the highlights.

As for the ditto stuff… I know I spent many, many hours working on those ditto strips, drawing them on the ditto masters. Unfortunately, the

From one kind of madness to another: Steve in the 1950s, with a copy of Harvey KurtzmanÕsHumbug, the magazine he did not long after he left MadÑand Steve in Vietnam a decade later.

74

An Interview With Steve & Dave Herring

Dave Herring wrote and drew both the origin of his hero The Black Falcon in the omnibus fanzine Fandom’s SpecialÑand ÒJonnie GalaxieÓ in 1969 for Wotta World. [©2004 Dave Herring.]

DAVE: Ah, beats me. [laughs] I think it’s probably because Bruce Cardozo, who published Fandom’s Special, was a fan of Odd. If I remember correctly, he lived in the Bronx, and I visited him at least once. Anyway, he asked me to do a comic strip for the zine, and that’s why I did it.

I did some other strips for other zine publishers, too. I think I have copies of most of them. To follow up the origin of Black Falcon in Fandom’s Special, I did a series of one-page strips of the Falcon with an ongoing story, though I can’t recall where they appeared. Before the army, I did a number of ditto strips, such as “Cosmic Ray” in Marv’s Super Adventures, and a six-pager called “The Choice” for Marv’s Stories of Suspense. I did a few strips for Jay Kinney’s Nope, and drew a 15-page parody of the Avengers called “The Avengensers” that appeared in HB Comics #5.

Even after I got out of the Army, some more stuff. I’m sure I did “Jonnie Galaxie” at that time. It appeared in Gary Acord’s fanzine Wotta World in 1969. Fandom was kind of mutating in the late 1960s, and becoming more like underground comix. And I did some more adult kind of things. But finally, it kind-of dried up around 1970. I guess, after that, I didn’t do any other strips for fanzines or similar publications.

STEVE: That’s when you were starting your own art career, right?

DAVE: Yeah. After the Army I got a full-time job. First it was just a clerking job, and then I did get into an art department at a newspaper. It wasn’t doing humorous comic strips, but it was art to some extent: advertising art and graphics for advertising, that sort of thing.

STEVE: Bill asks me, “It seems you were headed for a writing career.

What sort of things have you written since the heyday of fandom?” I’ve been in the software world for my entire career, but it’s an end of that particular profession that involves a lot of writing. So I’ve been doing a lot of business writing, all very boring, not much opportunity for humor. I have pursued a career in history, local history, and I’ve had the opportunity to write two books in that area, and I’m very proud and pleased to be able to do that and to contribute to my community. One of the books encompassed the town of Natick, but did not mention Odd. [chuckles] Also, I’ve dabbled in writing mystery fiction. I had a couple of stories published in the Alfred Hitchcock Mystery Magazine. They were “Florida Juice” in August 1966, and “Broken Shells” in the March 1998 issue.

DAVE: As far as what I’ve been doing for the past thirty-some years….

I had that job in newspaper advertising for a dozen or so years, and then I got into a news magazine, doing the graphics for editorial, which was a little more interesting and creative. I got into doing maps. I got kind-of a reputation for doing editorial maps and graphics for a newspaper and a news magazine, and I did that for a number of years. And I even got into doing the large, elaborate graphics spreads.

Then came computer graphics. I started doing three-dimensional illustrations and things like that. The computer graphics really took over for me. I run my own business now, doing graphics and web design, animation, and multimedia stuff. My website is www.artbyherring.com.

My wife Linda and I are partners on this business, and for the last few

Tales Calculated To Drive You... ODD (Part Two)

75 see a reprint anthology from those early days and pick it up, but that’s about it for me. Dave?

DAVE: I haven’t followed comics themselves for years. I’m sure there are some amazing things going on in comics now, but I’m out of the loop.

Maybe some of the Alter Ego readers will give me some recommendations. They can contact me through the website.

Steve and Dave in 1970Ñand the cover Dave drew in the 1960s for Odd #11. And heyÑheÕs still got a few copies of that issue for sale, as noted on the preceeding page! [©2004 Dave & Steve Herring.]

years we’ve been doing it full-time. And, in addition to graphics and illustration work and designing, I design newsletters and websites. We also do these video albums for people. Video is another kind of interest for me. We can take people’s photographs and videos and put them together and burn them to DVD and do creative things with them, make them into interesting, creative, fun projects. That’s what we’re doing now.

STEVE: Final question, “Has either of you stayed in the comics hobby?

Do you visit comic specialty stores?” For me, Bill, it was the Mad comic and that was it. It was mainly the humor. There have been other vehicles for humor through television and other sources that have kept my interest in that. But as far as the medium being comic books, that really faded out for me. Once in a while, from a nostalgic point of view, I may

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STEVE: Well, that covers the questions, and I think I brought in any of the extraneous thoughts I wanted to be sure to mention. So unless you have anything further to add, Dave, let’s wrap this up.

DAVE: I want to mention that there is some Odd material, including all the covers, up on my website, by clicking on the “illustration” icon, and then selecting “Odd.” Otherwise, that’s about it for me. Thanks to Bill for inspiring this walk down Memory Lane.

STEVE: Yup, our guts are all over the table now. [laughter]

NOTE: “The Count” by Steve and Dave Herring will be included in the upcoming Hamster Press book The Best of Star-Studded Comics and More. You can check out the Hamster books currently available at www.billschelly.com. And don’t forget Dave Herring’s offer to sell his extra copies of Odd #11 and #12 to the first comers. Highly recommended! Again, his website is www.artbyherring.com.

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re:

honored that you let us use a Fighting American acrylic as the cover of A/E #36. Fighting American was one of the best super-hero comics of the mid-1950s, and it’s just a shame it couldn’t have continued on even while Showcase #4 and its sequels were beginning to revolutionize the field.

Next, comics historian Will Murray has a comment on that Sick cover, as well: Hi Roy, Really liked Joe Simon on Carl Burgos. But I recall Joe once mentioning to me that he seemed to recall that Burgos wasn’t his real name. It was Schwartz or something like that, according to what Joe once told me.

That Fighting American Sick cover wasn’t a blowup of an origin panel, but an unused alternate cover to Fighting American #1. Joe once gave me a poster version of the original cover, which I treasure.

Re that Simon Fly cover: do you realize it’s a refry of MLJ’s Black Hood #9 from ’43—right down to the vow in the speech balloon, which was a quote from the opening of the Black Hood radio show?

Joe must have pulled it in from the files and redone it.

Will Murray

Well, here I am again—serving notice right off the bat that I’m still making a stab at using first person rather than third in this letters column.

Starting off with another drawing of two of our “maskots”—in this case, Alter and Captain Ego—as drawn by Australian fan Shane Foley in a Simon-&-Kirby style. He writes that he feels it’s “not a good Simon/Kirby, but I thought I’d send it anyway.” What can I say, Shane?

I like it! And I know the heroes’ creator Biljo White would, too. [Art ©2005 Shane Foley; Alter & Capt. Ego TM & ©2005 Roy Thomas & Bill Schelly.]

Our other “maskot,” the super-hero called Alter Ego, created by Roy Thomas & Ron Harris back in 1986, is only a few weeks away from being reprinted in a gorgeous full-color trade paperback, collecting all four 1986 issues plus several new features, and a newly-inked cover by Ron Harris. See our ad on p. 34. New adventures starring Alter Ego are in the works, as well!

Next—well, we still only have room to print comments on one issue of Alter Ego (the magazine), so this won’t be the month we catch up the 23 issues we’re behind—but at least we can cover A/E #36, with its double coverage of comics pioneer Joe Simon and the Golden Age of Canadian comics, as outlined by Mark Shainblum. We start off, in fact, with a short but sweet missive from Joe himself, with reference to that use of his and Jack Kirby’s hero Fighting American on the cover of a late-1950s issue of his Sick magazine: Roy, I received Alter Ego #36 yesterday. It is beautiful, and I’m very excited about it. The “Fighting American” art was done about a year before the comic book was published. It was a proposal for the Fighting American series. I do have a lovely copy, 8H" by 11"—also a variation where I think the colors are stronger. The first is a Dr. Martin color rendering. The second is acrylic. The original of that one is about 16"x20" or larger. The Huckleberry Fink figure was a gag done a few years later.

Joe Simon We’re (and that means all the gang at Alter Ego, not just Roy)

Wish we could print this one in color! Joe Simon and his son Jim sent us this scan of Simon & KirbyÕsoriginal ÒproposalÓ drawing for the series, which Joe mentions in his letter. No wonder it was a fast sell! [©2005 Joe Simon & Estate of Jack Kirby.]

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[comments, correspondence, & corrections]

Hey, it’s called “recycling,” Will! We’ve all done it! Incidentally, we have an informative Jim Amash interview with Carl Burgos’ daughter coming up in a very few issues. We’re think you’re gonna love it as much as we did!

Marc Svensson has provided videotaped interviews and other goodies in the past, and here’s a piece of info he passed on about a photo of Joe Simon in #36: Hi Roy,

The Toronto Comicon, on June 19, 2004, played host to a once-in-a-lifetime panel composed of three Golden Age Canadian comic book artistsÑplus one admiring American. (Left to right, in this photographic triptych:) Moderator Robert Pincombe, fan and collectorÑ Gerald (Jerry) Lazare, artist/creator of ÒNitro,Ó ÒJeff Waring,Ó ÒThe Dreamer,Ó et al.Ñ Ed Furness, artist/creator of ÒFreelance,Ó ÒCommander Steel,Ó and even illustrator of some Canadian ÒCaptain MarvelÓ exploitsÑ Michael T. Gilbert, U.S. writer/artist who for two decades has been writing and drawing his own unique version of the short-lived Canadian hero ÒMr. MonsterÓÑand Fred Kelly, artist/creator of the original ÒMr. Monster,Ó not to mention ÒActive Jim,Ó ÒSteve Storms,Ó ÒBetty Burd,Ó and the pre-Mr. Monster ÒDoc Stearne.Ó We hope to bring you a transcription of that epoch-marking panel, plus other North-of-the-Border material, in a near-future issue of Alter Ego. (As for Ye EditorÑRoy felt that, after helping to bring the panel into being in the first place, heÕdfunction best by simply sitting in the audience and lapping it all upÑso he did!) Photos taken by Roy Thomas.

Just got the new Alter Ego. Great! FYI: I took that picture of Joe Simon w/Alfred E. Newman; it’s from my archive. Funny story behind that image. It was taken with my first digital camera in 1998. There were two pictures that I took of Joe in that pose. In the first image, Joe is clear, but the flash “whited out” Alfred. In the second shot, Alfred was clear but Joe was blurry. So I took both images and produced the picture Joe gave you. It is a composite made from both images using Photoshop version 4.0. I took the new image and mailed it off to Joe. No one was the wiser.

Marc Svensson

Thanks for the fill-in, Marc. Here’s a missive from Henry J. Kujawa, no mean artist and writer himself with his Stormboy alternative comic: Hi Roy, Another mesmerizing issue. Love the “Fighting American” cover.

As it happens, I read the hardbound collection only a few months ago.

What fun! Simon & Kirby were really cooking then. I really enjoyed it much more than the ten issues of Captain America (of course, 12 years or so had gone by).

Also loved the “Sub-Mariner” page. Forget a third Golden Age of Marvel volume—the book I would most love to see is a Golden Age Sub-Mariner Masterworks, collecting all the earliest Subby stories in sequence, from wherever they appeared, like DC’s Wonder Woman Archives. (If only DC had thought of that approach back when they started their Superman and Batman Archives.) The first year of “SubMariner” appears to be one long serial, eventually crossing over with “The Human Torch.” While many 1940s comics have not aged well, I feel Bill Everett’s work still holds up, and out-classes almost everything Marvel/Timely was doing back then (apart from the S&K material).

Regarding the late Don Lawrence—I have the Trigan Empire book somewhere. How dare some publisher put a book like that out without any credits! What is this—“The Golden Age”?

Marvel Valentine Special—oh, wow, you’ve given me one more thing to look for. I think I became a Dan DeCarlo fan rather late, never realizing who he was or which characters he created until only a few years before he passed away. By the way, there are a lot of his covers on display at Nick Simon’s Silver Age Marvel website: www.samcci.comics.org.

Another fascinating overview, this time of Canadian comics. I’d be interested in seeing a Nelvana collection. I was distressed, as usual, by the lengthy detailing of the anti-comics hysteria and censorship. I’d like someone to explain to me how reading comics can lead to illiteracy!

Surely, not reading, in general, would be the way to go? And let’s not forget the book burnings in Nazi Germany.

Henry R. Kujawa 1202 Everett St. Camden, NJ 08104 As you probably know by now, Henry, Marvel has finally come out with hardcover collections of Marvel Mystery Comics #1-4 and Captain America Comics #1-4, with at least Human Torch #1-4 and Sub-Mariner #1-4 to follow in 2005—though I’ll admit that I personally would prefer to see Marvel Mystery #5-8 and #9-12 even before the latter two collections. And we hope you didn’t miss the comics-style reprint (flawed as it was) of the Torch/Namor fight from Marvel Mystery #8-10!

Next, a query from reader Delmo Walters, Jr.: Dear Roy, I may not be an expert on Challengers of the Unknown, but I don’t think Joe Simon had anything to do with their creation. They were created by Dave Wood and Jack Kirby, if memory serves. I guess the easiest way to confirm this would be to check the credits in the COTU Archives.

Delmo Walters, Jr. Wood and Kirby were the guys who did the work for the Showcase and early Challengers issues, Delmo, but there have been several reports—and not just from Joe Simon—that “Challengers” was a leftover Simon-&-Kirby idea that, with Joe’s okay, was taken to DC in 1956.

Half of A/E #36 was taken up with several articles on 1940s Canadian comics, and here’s a bit of additional information from Mark Shainblum, who authored both the showcase piece there and his own earlier book, Canuck Comics: Hey Roy, Alter Ego #36 is a beautiful-looking magazine. It’s really nice to see these Canadian characters exposed to a wider audience, perhaps for the first time. Years ago, I had dreams about doing a revival of one or two of the great Canadian Golden Age characters. (I wonder who influenced me in that direction?) Perhaps one day.

That Bell Features house ad you reprinted, the one where they were buying back issues of their own comics? I seem to recall that they simply hadn’t kept any copies for their in-house archives and needed to

re:

79

buy a few back to have complete records. By the way, based on your editorial, you and Dann watch way more Canadian TV than the average Canadian!

Mark Shainblum And proud of it, as Maxwell Smart used to say—back when we watched more US TV. Thanks for the added info, Mark.

One of the major artists covered in Mark’s article on the Golden Age of Canadian comic books was the venerable Ed Furness, creator of Freelance, one of the most popular series of that era. Through the good offices of a third party, Ed and I exchanged a few e-mails in spring of 2004. Then, in June, we met in person at the Toronto Comicon, along with several other folks involved in one way or another with A/E #36— as per the accompanying photos, which readers of that issue will find rewarding. Ed brought to the con a sketchbook he’d done of Freelance and other subjects years ago, which he generously loaned me so I could makes copies of the art therein, and which I returned to him a few weeks later. Below is a missive made up of pieces of e-mails Ed sent me both before and after the convention: Dear Roy: Alter Ego #36 arrived right on schedule, and I thank you sincerely for your kindness and generosity. I was delighted with your coverage of Anglo-American stuff—being well aware that our collective work on everything done at Double-A led to an homogenous result in which no one’s work ever showed individual talent or style. I had to do it that way for production purposes, and artists were almost non-existent.

It was particularly interesting to see the Jim Fleming item on p. 8, and it came as a pleasant surprise. Mac (as we always called him) did backgrounds only as long as he was with me—perhaps 3-4 years—and was absolutely indispensable as that particular cog in the production machine we eventually cobbled together. It is difficult to imagine what I would have done if he had ever told me that he wanted to do figure work. Thanks for the update, Roy. Your Alter Ego showed the naiveté of those early years, but I wouldn’t have missed it for anything—especially now with the outright explosion of virtuoso work which is on display these days.

If my 94-year-old body hangs together, I’ll see you at the convention. I’ll bring some of those old “Freelance” sketches and we can take it from there.

[Comments from two e-mails received after the con:] Our meeting at last after our contact by e-mail and by phone was a happy occasion for me, too, And seeing some folks I have known from past experiences was an added bonus. Sitting at the same table with Will Eisner just put the icing on the cake, and I shall never forget that day.

One spends his whole life building a store of memories against the years when activities cease, or nearly so, and those memories sustain us in a way that’s hard to imagine when we are young.

I only wish my pal Ted McCall had lived to see the proliferation of the medium. He was a jewel.

The term “homogenous” didn’t disturb me in the least. I have applied it to the stuff produced in our shop from the start. It was both necessary and intentional, and we were forced to live with that. Sure, I would have enjoyed some different styles and techniques, but I can also picture the headaches which would have accompanied dealing with the number of different artists and writers which our production would have entailed. Actually, I felt quite gratified when I discovered that C.C. Beck and others were doing their best to have their stuff also conform to a style.

At one time I sent one of my inkers—Les Gilpin—down to Beck to see what he [Beck] could make of him. Gilpin actually did more work on “Commander Steel” than I did. I couldn’t handle him—he was wild as a hawk—and I just didn’t have the time to try and tame him. I saw

HereÕsa typical page from Ed FurnessÕvintage notebooks, showing his hero Freelance in action. And itÕsjust one of dozens of pages! YouÕllsee more in a future issue! [©2005 Ed Furness.]

him some years later, and he still worked for Beck, so I guess he became civilized at last. I never saw him again and I have no idea what happened to him after that.

You mention Jack Binder in your letter. We used many scripts, through Fawcett, from “Eando” Binder. A distinctive name—one assumes a relationship. I hadn’t heard of him.

Ed Furness “Eando” Binder, as many US Golden Age fans know, was the joint name of two of artist Jack Binder’s brothers, Earl and Otto, who used that pseudonym in the late 1930s when writing science-fiction. Otto continued to use it later, after Earl had quit writing—and indeed, the Eando Binder byline appeared on many, many “Jon Jarl” science-fiction text stories by Otto that appeared in the pages of Fawcett’s Captain Marvel Adventures.Otto was one of Cap’s greatest scripters.

Meeting you and the other two Canadian artists who came to the convention—Fred Kelly and Gerald Lazare—was a highlight of the trip, Ed! Hope we get a chance to do it again real soon!

One minor correction re a statement in a caption by Yours Truly concerning the super-heroine The Wing, from another Canadian prominent at that June con, Robert Pincombe: Dear Roy, “The Wing” was created, written, and drawn by John K. Hilkert for Joke Comics. He also did a number of covers for Bell Features.

When Hilkert left, young Jerry Lazare took over the feature, writing and drawing it till the end. Lazare was an eager teenager much like Leo Bachle, pumping out features for almost all of the Bell books. The Great Canadian Comic Books does imply that “The Wing” was created by Lazare, but it just ain’t so.

Robert Pincombe

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[comments, correspondence, & corrections] It still is, for most comic book writers and artists, Gerry. Great meeting you in Toronto, as well!

Meanwhile, A/E associate editor Jim Amash forwarded this note with a paragraph from Timely and later Mad writer/artist Al Jaffee, who had been interviewed by Jim for the previous issue, #35: Roy— Al Jaffee gave me the following story too late for deadline in A/E #35, but I think you might want to use it in a letters column: JAFFEE: I met Jon Blummer while in the waiting room [of AllAmerican Comics]. I was about 19 at the time and making the rounds of the comics companies. Blummer saw me sitting there, looked at my samples, and said, “I’m having trouble with my eyes and can’t handle all the work I have and need an assistant.” He gave me his address, which was in Astoria [Queens, NY]. I drew a sample page and went to see him.

Blummer said, “I really can’t use this, but I’ll pay you for it anyway.” I think he was probably in his early to mid-30s at the time, but I can’t be sure of that. You know, when you’re young, it’s hard to gauge older people’s ages. But he was a very nice man.

Jim Amash A Final Correction re Alter Ego #36:

Gerald Lazare, as will be detailed in a future issue, went on from those 1940s Canadian comics to become a fine artistÑbut in between, he illustrated numerous books, including a juvenile thriller titled The Secret of Hermit’s Bay, by Eleanor Lyon. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.]

That was my error, not Jerry’s incorrect credit, Robert. Hope you get a kick out of seeing yourself hosting that panel in Toronto—even if I didn’t have as much of a closeup of you as I did of the other folks. (Me, I was just in the audience, leaning on every word!) As you know, we’re all hard at working lining up material for a second issue featuring lots of “Canadian content,” hopefully later this year.

Regular A/E benefactor George Hagenauer flew back from Italy (and boy, is his cape tired!) in June and promptly wrote us that, in editing his letter for issue #36, we accidentally changed his description of a Winsor McCay Buster Brown original comic strip into an R.J. Outcault Buster. George says: “In 1908 a number of artists, including Winsor McCay, filled in for Outcault on Buster Brown. While inked by someone else, my Sunday is by McCay, and to my knowledge the only one in existence.” George is still looking for an Outcault Buster Brown, as well—so anyone with one for sale or trade can contact him at: yellowkd@terracom.net or Box 930093, Verona, WI 53593.

Till next issue, keep those cards and letters and e-mails rolling in to: Roy Thomas 32 Bluebird Trail St. Matthews, SC 29135

fax: (803) 826-6501 e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com

And remember, be here for next issue’s coverage of early comics pioneers Creig Flessel and Bert Christman, ’cause—The Sandman’ll Get You If You Don’t Watch Out!

Now here’s an excerpt from a pre-convention letter from artist Gerry (formerly spelled Jerry) Lazare himself, sent after I mailed him a sample copy of A/E: Dear Roy: Thanks for your April Alter Ego issue. I’m very impressed by how thick and packed full of goodies it is. No small task to produce, I’m sure. What we do for love!

I did enjoy the interview with Al Jaffee—he is six years older than I am—especially his descriptions of the bullpen and divisions of labor: pencilers, inkers, letterers, proofreaders, etc.

With the Canadian Whites, you had to do it all. A much lonelier life.

Gerry Lazare

Al JaffeeÕsmention of ÒHop HarriganÓ and ÒUltra-ManÓ creator Jon L. Blummer gives us all the excuse we need to run this rarity, recently received from Dominic Bongo, whoÕdjust bought it from Ron Goulart: a tier from an (unpublished? we dunno) ÒAtomÓ story back in the mid-1940s! As DC art identifier Craig Delich wrote when we sent him a copy: ÒI didnÕteven know Blummer ever drew ÔTheAtomÕ!ÓNeither did we, Craig! [The Atom TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

ge ©2005 Marc

[Art on this pa

Swayze.]

82 though it happened long ago, there might be something in it that could help somebody today. So I wanted to relate it completely... the story of The Great Pierre... from the beginning.

But I couldn’t find the beginning. In all my cherished trash, hoarded since the Golden Age, there was not one word as to how that idea originated.

And no wonder. His name wasn’t Pierre in the beginning. And it wasn’t Great. He was funny... or supposed to be.

By

[Art & logo ©2005 Marc Swayze; Captain Marvel © & TM 2005 DC Comics]

F

CA EDITOR’S NOTE: From 1941-53, Marcus D. Swayze was a top artist for Fawcett Publications. The very first Mary Marvel character sketches came from Marc’s drawing table, and he illustrated her earliest adventures, including the classic origin story, “Captain Marvel Introduces Mary Marvel (CMA #18, Dec. ’42); but he was primarily hired by Fawcett to illustrate Captain Marvel stories and covers for Whiz Comics and Captain Marvel Adventures. He also wrote many Captain Marvel scripts, and continued to do so while in the military. After leaving the service in 1944, he made an arrangement with Fawcett to produce art and stories for them on a freelance basis out of his Louisiana home. There he created both art and story for The Phantom Eagle in Wow Comics, in addition to drawing the Flyin’ Jenny newspaper strip for Bell Syndicate (created by his friend and mentor Russell Keaton).

After the cancellation of Wow, Swayze produced artwork for Fawcett’s top-selling line of romance comics, including Sweethearts and Life Story. After the company ceased publishing comics, Marc moved over to Charlton Publications, where he ended his comics career in the mid-’50s. Marc’s ongoing professional memoirs have been FCA’s most popular feature since his first column appeared in FCA #54, 1996. Last issue, Marc discussed Jango, one of his several syndicated newspaper strip attempts. In this issue, he speaks of another syndicate strip sample—the humorous Louis LeBone—the missing link and origin to his Louis Le Noir strip—eventually leading to The Great Pierre… the strip which finally led to a contract for syndication. —P.C. Hamerlinck.

The family has never complained about it... the massive collection of notes, sketches, letters, telegrams, clippings, and treasured junk... filed away and piled away over the years... and accorded an unreasonable amount of space in our household. One would think, upon looking at it, that anything could be found there.

And usually it could. But not in this case. The plan had been to write about the final effort to syndicate a newspaper strip of my own... to go into detail how one idea led to another, then to another, and so on... the changes that took place on drawing board and typewriter and at the syndicates... then how it all turned out... the contract. I thought it might be interesting and,

There was a promotion biography prepared by the syndicate that appeared later describing the Pierre feature as having originated when the creator was lost in a hunting trip in a Southern swamp. Such an incident had occurred, but I assure you that any time I was lost in a swamp... and there had been some... my thoughts were devoted to one subject alone... getting the hell out. Made a pretty good promotion piece, though.

Working backward through a file drawer titled... of all things...

“Ideas,” I was stopped by a folder that rang a bell. It was headed “Dialects.” That subject had become of interest with the early realization that comics consisted not only of drawing but of writing. In the file were notes and clippings... examples of the colorful “broken English” heard and spoken, proudly in those days, throughout our land. Included was a section identified by the word “Cajun”... and underneath it, “Louis LeBone.” That was it... what I was looking for... the origin of The Great Pierre!

It was the dialect that started it... that special language of the Acadian descendants. Dialect... not new in the comics. Creator Fontaine Fox had done well with the language of Toonerville... Al Capp with that of Dogpatch... and there were others. Why not a newspaper strip about a Cajun-speaking community... a funny one? I went to work.

I don’t know what happened that I didn’t finish the LeBone project.

It had happened before... where after weeks of writing, drawing, doodling, scribbling, thinking... the idea was suddenly abandoned. It may have been the humor factor. My intention had been a romanceadventure, continuous, long-novel type feature. Once again perhaps the thought of a future of producing anything else, like humor, had something to do with it.

More time and effort than I once thought had been spent on the project... 12 daily strips penciled and lettered, 3 of them inked. Also

Marc Swayze ponders: ÒSame guy? MaybeÉ maybe not. One character merged withÉ or becameÉ another, as wit made way for drama.Ó [Art ©2005 Marc Swayze.]

[©2005 Marc Swayze.]

Marc Swayze 83

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ÒWeDidnÕtKnow... It Was The Golden Age!Ó there were countless sketches and longhand notes. The work, nevertheless, was not an absolute loss. Louis LeBone merged with, or became, another Cajun character, again with the dialect, and in the swamp country locale... but not funny this time... serious. Louis Le Noir.

There must have been some sort of charm about the unshaven, daredevil braggart Le Noir. The work was carried to 12 daily strips of finished art, typed script, photostatic copies... and achieved approval and support at two syndicates.

The feature also provided a final link to the contract... The Great Pierre.

I’ll tell you about it!

[Indeed, Marc will tell us about it next issue, in his continuing memoirs of the Golden Age of Comics.]

COMICS’ GOLDEN AGE LIVES AGAIN!

©2004 AC Comics

Various ÒLouis LeBoneÓ character sketches dug up from MarcÕsold file materials. [Art ©2005 Marc Swayze.]

COMMANDO YANK BLACK TERROR AVENGER PHANTOM LADY CAT-MAN DAREDEVIL CRIMEBUSTER CAPTAIN FLASH MR. SCARLET SPY SMASHER SKYMAN STUNTMAN THE OWL BULLETMAN FIGHTING YANK PYROMAN GREEN LAMA THE EAGLE IBIS The Original GHOST RIDER The above is just a partial list of characters that have appeared in AC Comics’ reprint titles such as MEN OF MYSTERY, GOLDEN AGE GREATS, and AMERICA’S GREATEST COMICS. Virtually all issues published to date are available at $6.95 each. To find over 100 quality Golden Age reprints, go to the AC Comics website at <accomics.com>.

AC COMICS Box 521216 Longwood FL 32752 Please add $1.50 postage & handling per order.

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Sculpting The Golden Age Binder Shop Fine Artist AL DUCA

by P.C. Hamerlinck [With special thanks to Shaun Clancy] Al Duca at the Jack Binder shop, 1941Ñand his oft-reproduced illustration of that shop, namely the Jack Binder Studio barn in Englewood, New Jersey, which he drew that same year. [©2004 Estate of Al Duca.]

O

ne of Boston’s most important fine artists had begun his art career in 1941 drawing comic book heroes.

Alfred Milton Duca, whose middle name comes from the town in which he was born in 1920—Milton, Massachusetts—studied art at the Pratt Institute in New York from 1938 to 1941. It was at Pratt that he made friends with classmates Victor Dowd, Ken Bald, Kurt Schaffenberger, Bob Rylands, Bob Butts, and others.

In 1941—with the help of artist Bill Ward, who had graduated earlier from Pratt—Duca and his Pratt classmates entered the working world in a thriving new medium known as comic books, joining Ward at Englewood, New Jersey’s renowned-sounding Jack Binder Studio... which of course was actually a barn behind Jack’s house. Talk about low overhead!

It was at the Binder Shop that Duca helped produce comics for Fawcett Publications. Amongst the great camaraderie between its young artists, Binder ran the shop much like a factory assembly line. Duca’s primary function was that of inker, and between 1941-42 he was working on Fawcett comics features such as “Bulletman,” “Golden Arrow,” “Zoro the Mystery Man,” and more.

In a March 1998 correspondence from Golden Age enthusiast Shaun Clancy to Al Duca’s wife Veronique, she wrote that her husband had also worked on “Captain Marvel” in 1941-42: “Al mentioned to me several times that he remembers doing backgrounds for ‘Captain Marvel’ and that they were not allowed to sign any of the drawings. His way of signing was by introducing a small calendar in the background with ‘DUCA OIL COMPANY’ written on it.”

While with Binder, and in Al relaxes with the J. Binder shop crew. addition to See the entire photo in the TwoMorrows producing an book Hero Gets Girl! The Life and Art of ongoing flow of Kurt Schaffenberger by Mark Voger. work for Fawcett Publications, Duca also did artwork on “Black Owl” for Prize Comics and for at least a couple of features—“Pioneer Picture Stories” and “Tao Anwar’”—for Street & Smith, all in 1942.

World War II set in, scattering everywhere Binder’s tight group of employees. Duca departed the shop in 1943 to further his studies at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts from 1943 to 1944. Shortly thereafter, Duca’s art career zoomed, and he would soon earn himself an excellent reputation as a top sculptor, painter, and even as an inventor!

A previously-unpublished photo taken at the Jack Binder shop in 1941. (Left to right:) Vince CostelloÑAl DucaÑBob RylandsÑ(unknown)ÑBill WardÑwith Kurt Schaffenberger in foreground.

Duca was responsible for many innovative technical processes which would eventually become widely used in

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Binder Shop Artist Al Duca developed new technical advances in metal sculpture casting.

During the ’60s and ’70s, Duca devoted the majority of his time exclusively to sculpture. He was commissioned to create several important monumental works in office buildings throughout the city of Boston. Among his best-known pieces in the city are “Computer Sphere” at the JFK Post Office Building, “Massachusetts Artifact” at the John McCormack State Office Building, and, perhaps his most familiar sculpture and most ambitious undertaking, “The Boston Tapestry” monument located at the downtown Prudential Center (Boston’s first true skyscraper!).

Commissioned by the Prudential Insurance Company in 1962, Duca’s own interpretive style on “The Boston Tapestry” suggests a view from the top of the 52-story Prudential Center overlooking the city. Duca devised a “graphic shorthand” which translated his two-dimensional drawings into multidimensional molds for casting iron forms. For this particular piece, four tons of local scrap iron was melted down and poured into 166 different molds of hardened sand, each fashioned by Duca into the shape and form visible in the 60' x 20' tapestry.

Duca had also worked with young people throughout his career, beginning in 1947 at the Boy’s Club of Boston, where he first directed art programs. For nearly 20 years following, he created local private sector drug abuse prevention programs, which he later initiated on a national level involving State and Federal Governments. In addition, he was an art instructor for several years at MIT.

Al Duca (center, with white shirt and rolled-up sleeves) at the Society of Illustrators Club in New York City in the 1940sÑpainting a set for a play.

both modern painting and sculpture. In 1944, fresh out of Boston MFA, he developed the Polymer Tempera technique, the forerunner to the acrylic paint of today. He later became affiliated with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1959 where, working under grant funds, he

Two sculptures and a painting by Al Duca. (Left:) ÒThe Wizard,Ó German silver, 12" high, 1979. Could that be old Shazam lurking in there? (Center:) ÒEsther,Ó bronze, 14" high, 1960. (Right:) ÒOver by Cross IslandÓ a 1984 painting. Thanks to Mrs. Al Duca.

Sculpting The Golden Age

87

In 1989, Governor Michael Dukakis presented Duca with a “Life Achievement Award” at a special ceremony. Four years later, Boston Mayor Raymond Flynn issued a proclamation, declaring May 12, 1993 as “ALFRED DUCA DAY.” By the early 1980s, in the latter part of his art career, Duca returned to painting, producing many pieces from his Annisquam, Massachusetts, studio. His intense, colorful works during this period depicted semi-abstract scenes of New England landscapes. Both his sculptures and painted work at the time had been widely priced, anywhere between $300 and $25,000. His art pieces are part of permanent collections at the Worcester Art Museum, The Addison Gallery of American Art in Andover, and The Fogg Museum at Harvard University, with some early works residing at the Smithsonian Archives of American Art. While his achievements in fine art were certainly stellar accomplishments, perhaps deep down Al Duca felt his early work in comic books was also an important and significant phase in his career. Even during his final years, according to his wife, Duca would peruse comic book shops in search of stories from old “Captain Marvel” comics with “DUCA OIL COMPANY” in the background of a comic panel. Alas, his searches came up empty-handed. Alfred M. Duca passed away in 1997, leaving behind a great legacy of fine art... nurtured early on in Jack Binder’s backyard barn.

Nope, we havenÕtyet run across a panel with a ÒDuca Oil CompanyÓ sign, eitherÑbut hereÕsan early Fawcett page produced by the Binder team. Note the ÒWard & Butts Junk YardÓ sign in panel 4, referring to Binder shop artists Bill Ward and Bob Butts. From Captain Marvel Adventures #4 (Oct. 1941), recently reprinted in The Shazam! Archives, Vol. 4, with an intro by P.C. Hamerlinck. [©2005 DC Comics.]

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Soup And Marbles A Comic Book Writer Examines Mad Õs Classic Superman/Captain Marvel Parody

by Steve Skeates Edited by P.C. Hamerlinck

D

o I honestly feel that the best-ever Superman story and the most compelling Captain Marvel adventure are actually one and the same... one of the very rare meetings of these two most powerful beings on the planet... a tale in which these characters don’t even wear their proper names? Instead, the one in the blue tights is, at the moment, known as “Superduperman”; his opponent is called “Captain Marbles.” Yet, no matter how they’re labeled, it hardly takes a Master’s degree (nor any sort of wild and loopy leap of faith) for one to realize who these dudes really are—or, furthermore, for all of us to know from the outset that this particular encounter is bound— boinngswoosh!—to be (or rather, quite definitely was) the battle of the century!

A parody? Yes, of course that’s what this is, and therefore I’d hardly be surprised at all if there weren’t a fairly weighty number of purists out there even now eager to point out that this rather spectacular battle royal doesn’t count at all... so, how dare I suggest that this is the best, when it doesn’t even fit the requirements of the category I’m speaking of... as super-serious fan-boys belabor the obvious by stressing the fact that this 8-page comedic masterpiece from the early ’50s is in no way a part of the overall and seemingly endless Superman storyline, nor a portion of the Captain Marvel mythos either... that, instead, this thing is “merely” a joke, a gag, a take-off, a put-on, and therefore a rather “worthless” aberration, one that is (as far as drama is concerned) somehow not even worthy of consideration. As a matter of fact, a couple of years back I ran afoul of these particularly humorless nit-pickers when I cited this selfsame social satire as being Wally Wood’s initial foray into providing the artwork for a super-hero saga; they wanted a far more “serious” endeavor (like “Daredevil” or “Dynamo”) to possess that honor.

In a larger sense, however, it is in fact this very disconnect from either of these heroes’ actual history that gives this yarn much of its power.

Parody, after all, is a rather poetic form... to distill in as few pages as possible various characters down to their basic essence, then exaggerate and/or twist all about these essential traits, with no fear whatsoever as to how the construction in question will impact upon the so-called life story of any of the characters involved. Thus, Captain Marvel can become a renegade, a villain, concerned primarily with amassing a fortune while referring to himself as “The Unknown Monster”; he can even wind up encased in a solid block of carbon steel, and none of these developments need be resolved in any future issue of Captain Marvel Adventures. Similarly, in order to impress a rather stand-offish Lois Lane, Clark Kent can reveal to her that he is, in actuality, Superman, and rare indeed would be the reader who would, upon perusing a subsequent issue of the actual Superman comic book, wonder why it is that Lois seems still to be in the dark; did she somehow forget what he told her, or what?

The first page of ÒSuperduperman!Ó by Harvey Kurtzman (script and layouts) and Wally Wood (finished art) in the four-color comic book Mad #4 (AprilMay 1953) set the tone for the classic 8-page storyÑbut weÕllleave the analysis, this time around, to Steve Skeates. ReproÕdfrom the Russ Cochran hardcover Mad, Vol. 1. [©2005 E.C. Publications, Inc.]

Dramatic? You betcha! And featuring a fight the likes of which the 1950s (an era bereft of all sorts of motion picture special effects, including of course computer animation) had seldom, if ever, seen. A safe is smashed over the villain’s head, a building is toppled on top of him, yet nothing Superman does seems to have any effect upon this socalled “Unknown Monster”! But wait—check this out—finally employing his super-brain, Supes abruptly begins to taunt his opponent, playing to the Captain’s massive ego, pestering him, egging him on, until at last this renegade throws a punch which the oh-so-clever Action Ace easily ducks away from... allowing Marvel’s fist to land with the force of an atom bomb smack-dab in the center of Marvel’s own face!

(Something that comes very close to being a physical impossibility, but never mind that!) The main thing is, Captain Marvel has been defeated not by a score of lawyers in the employ of National Periodicals (that’s the drama that was being played out in the real world) but (within this truly marvelous epic adventure) by the only force that could possibly defeat him. He’s been defeated by himself.

Making the scene upon the comic book racks way back in 1953, gracing a very early issue of the original comic book version of Mad (the fourth issue, to be exact), written by the greatest humorist the comic book world has ever known, the one and only Harvey Kurtzman (who wrote, broke down, and laid out every single story within the mere 23 issues of Mad the comic book), and illustrated with enough chicken fat (a term supposedly devised by Kurtzman as a somehow rather apt description of all the additional gags—most of them having nothing at all to do with the story—that would be shoved into every panel of a Mad parody—in this case, all sorts of advertising posters at the beginning, and

Soup And Marbles

89

Besides, there was so much else that was readily available for Kurtzman to make fun of: movies, literature, radio programs, comic strips (a medium which in the ’50s garnered unto itself far more readers than the lowly comic book), even that rather recent invention known as television (and here the Mad parodies—even though this was a color comic—were done all in black-&-white, and often with lots of horizontal lines breaking up the drawings, because that’s what TV was like in the ’50s!). The list hardly stops there, though; there were also tabloid newspapers, games and What can we say? You canÕtimprove on perfection. [©2005 E.C. Publications, Inc.] puzzles, restaurants, supermarkets, ads of every variety, and just about enigmatically toward the end little kids laughing, gawking, pointing, and anything else that was going on... virtually everything and anything was mainly checking out the action) to ruin anyone’s digestive tract by fanquite definitely fair game! favorite Wallace Wood, this was a landmark story in more ways than one. Most significantly, this was the first time Kurtzman and company had produced a parody of an actual existing comic book character. The previous twelve Mad insanities (four per issue) had been mainly genre parodies.

Actually, comic book parodies remained a rarity as far as Mad was concerned. In fact, out of the 90-plus stories within those 23 comic books, less than seven percent dealt with established comic book characters... and only a handful of those were super-heroes (and that’s counting Batman and Blackhawk, who technically aren’t super-heroes at all, even though they rather act like they possess a plethora of powers and abilities beyond those of mortal men!). There were several reasons for this particular dearth of super-heroic put-ons. First of all, superheroes themselves were rather a rarity in the 1950s, with the comic book landscape having been co-opted by short and punchy tales that weren’t particularly character-driven... he-man adventure stories, cautionary tales concerning the horrors of war, and just plain horror stories in general, with a sprinkling of romantic teenage comedy, and cute little talking animals for the younger kids. And, making fun of characters that were no longer around, characters that were all but forgotten... that does seem rather like a fool’s game, does it not?

Yet, perhaps, for a super-hero fan, “Superduperman” is the best!

Clark Kent, no longer merely a lowly reporter, but something even lower than that: the assistant to the copy boy; bent over, continually coughing, his main job seemingly being to pick up, empty, and polish all the office spittoons... his unrequited love for Lois Lane, who doesn’t just see him as an incompetent reporter who’s never around when a story breaks; instead she views him as an out-and-out creep, spending every penny he’s saved in order to buy her a pearl necklace which she hardly even notices and definitely doesn’t appreciate. Plus, the way the symbol on Superman’s chest keeps changing, from the Good Housekeeping seal to a ‘For Rent’ sign, until ultimately and quite appropriately it becomes a welcome mat as Lois walks all over him, unimpressed (to say the least) to learn that Clark and Superman are one and the same, bringing us right up face to face with the moral of the story: “Once a creep, always a creep!”

Ah, the pathos! The drama! Chugachugachuga chug! Ka-pweeng!

[Steve Skeates has been a comic book writer since 1965, having scripted for DC, Marvel, Tower, Charlton, Archie, Atlas/Seaboard, and Warren Publications. He is probably most noted for his DC work on Aquaman, The Hawk and The Dove, et al., beginning in 1968.]

Yet, in analyzing further, one should also take into consideration the many pitfalls that lie in one’s path when one chooses to base one comic book story upon yet another comic... the tendency to become too ingrown, too incestuous, employing gags that only the constant reader of comics would or could understand and therefore hopefully chuckle over, leaving way too much of the general populace (if they even picked up that particular comic book at all) merely scratching their heads. Surely, a parody of— for instance—Green Lantern or The Flash would even today appeal to too small an audience, and Kurtzman was (quite understandably, if you ask me) shooting for the widest audience Mad could get! Therefore, Harvey only went after and up against the really truly big guns: Superduperman defeats Captain Marbles, just as DC was defeating Fawcett in its lawsuit over copyright infringement, Superman, Captain Marvel, which would be settled not long after Mad #4 went on sale. Comics cognoscenti have always assumed that Kurtzman was aware of the legal actionÑand probably he was. [©2005 E.C. Publications, Inc.] Batman, and Wonder Woman.