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JULIUS SCHWARTZ AGE OF COMICS! Co-Starring
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Vol. 3, No. 38 / July 2004
™
Editor
Roy Thomas
Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash
Design & Layout
Christopher Day
Consulting Editor John Morrow
FCA Editor
JULIE
P.C. Hamerlinck
Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert
Editors Emeritus
Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich
Part One
Production Assistant
Eric Nolen-Weathington
Cover Artists Carmine Infantino & Jim Amash Irwin Hasen
Cover Colorists J. David Spurlock Irwin Hasen
And Special Thanks to: Neal Adams Murphy Anderson Pedro Angosto Jeff Bailey Bob Bailey Brian H. Bailie Mike W. Barr Michael Baulderstone Bill Black Jackson Bostwick Jerry K. Boyd Alan Brennert Mike Burkey Nick Cardy Bob Cherry Shaun Clancy John Cochran Dave Cockrum Ray A. Cuthbert Teresa R. Davidson Al Dellinges Joe Desris Irwin Donenfeld Shel Dorf Harlan & Susan Ellison Don Ensign Mark Evanier Shane Foley Ramona Fradon Mike Friedrich Carl Gafford José García-López Jeff Gelb Frank Giella Joe Giella Janet Gilbert Dick Giordano Mike Gold Bob Greenberger Walt Grogan Beth Gwinn Jennifer T. Hamerlinck
Ron Harris Irwin Hasen Mark & Stephanie Heike Tom Horvitz Dave Hunt Joe Kubert Stan Lee Paul Levitz Glenn MacKay Elliot S. Maggin Keith Mallow Dan Makara Dave Manak Sam Maronie Brian K. Morris Mark Muller Will Murray Mart Nodell Denny O’Neil Carlos Pacheco Joe Petrilak John G. Pierce Larry Rippee Ethan Roberts Bob Rozakis Alex Saviuk David Siegel Louis Small, Jr. Marc Sparks J. David Spurlock Richard Steinberg Marc Svensson Marc Swayze Joel Thingvall Dann Thomas Alex Toth Michael Uslan Marv Wolfman Donald Woolfolk Eddy Zeno Michael Zeno Tom Ziuko
This issue is dedicated to the memory of
Julie Schwartz, Carrie Nodell, & Lillian Drake
Contents
Writer/Editorial: Julie, Julie, Julie . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 Schwartz and All. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Mark Evanier’s overview of the life & times of Julius Schwartz. Three Easy Pieces Starring Julius Schwartz . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 A trio of interviews by Will Murray with the self-confessed architect of the Silver Age. “How Captain Whiz Became The Flash!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 Carmine Infantino on Julie—and the secret origins of the Silver Age speedster. “We Called Him ‘Sabertooth’!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 Golden/Silver Age inker Joe Giella talks about his friendship with Julie. “I Never Felt Like I Was Working for a Boss When I Worked for Julie!” . . 40 Murphy Anderson on the “Spectre-acular” Schwartz.
Julie: Part Two . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Flip Us! About Our Cover: There was never a moment’s doubt about which super-hero, if any, would appear on our cover. Julie Schwartz edited the legendary JSA and other DC heroes in the late 1940s, and many another comic in the 1950s through his retirement in the mid-1980s, including Superman and Batman—but ’twas the 1956 debut of The Flash in Showcase #4 that, however unguessed-at at the time, raised the curtain on the Silver Age of Comics. We didn’t dare dream that that Flash’s first and greatest artist, Carmine Infantino, who rarely draws these days, would agree to pencil a brand new cover especially for this issue; but, thanks to some friendly persuasion by Jim Amash, he did—using his sometime signature “Cinfa”—and he came through like the champ he’s always been. See both Carmine’s penciled version and the full Amash-inked version of this fabulous illo—including how you can take a crack at owning it—on p. 34! [Art ©2004 Carmine Infantino; The Flash TM & ©2004 DC Comics.] Above: Julie and artist Murphy Anderson hold up a copy of Justice League of America #1, with the cover they created for it. This was actually the fourth “JLA” story, of course—but its publication demonstrated that the super-group had won its wings, and it’s been around ever since! Photo from the Julius Schwartz Collection. Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada. FIRST PRINTING.
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Title writer/editorial
Julie, Julie, Julie
Julius Schwartz meant a lot to me, both as man and as comic book editor. No, make that “means.” Just because he’s gone doesn’t make him loom any less large in my life, nor in others’.
When I first decided to devote an entire issue of Alter Ego to Julie and his accomplishments, I intended to write a long piece about our relationship over the years, as I’d done previously about Gil Kane, John Buscema, and Bill Everett. Ere long, however, a floodtide of Julie-related memories and anecdotes came cascading in from folks who wished, wanted, nay, demanded to be a part of this special issue. And how could I deny them? Yet I could only find more space in the issue—by foregoing some of my own.
what was coming up in his comics, though his major correspondent in that area was understandably Jerry, who’d print news in the various fanzines he initiated. Julie bristled once when I mentioned I hadn’t heard from him in a while—“I’m a busy man!” he shot back—but I always looked forward to his letters. I was moderately crushed when I submitted two scripts to him (one solicited, one un-, as recorded in A/E V3#9) and he basically ignored them. But I never complained. When I obtained a fellowship to study foreign relations at George Washington University in the nation’s capital, Julie informed me that he had relatives in that area, and we could meet up when he visited them.
I’ve never been certain to what extent my being hired by DC in mid1965 to become assistant editor to his longtime friend, Superman editor Mort Weisinger, was due to Julie. Julie downplayed his role; but since I’d corresponded very little with Mort (though I had sent him my first two Matter of fact, I wound issues of Alter Ego, which up with so much material by then I was that I soon decided I’d also editing/publishing), I’ve devote half of A/E #40, always felt Mort was two months from now, to aware of all my correa combination of Julie and spondence with Julie, and his artist friend Gil Kane. that that played a role. Hopefully, I’ll get a chance Julie did say once that to say more about both Mort asked his opinion men in #40—but the way before offering me the that issue is fast filling up, An early 21st-century Silver & Golden Age panel at the Heroes Con in Charlotte, North Carolina. job. And I recall Mort as well, with art and info (Left to right:) Nick Cardy, Irwin Hasen, Roy Thomas, Julius Schwartz, Murphy Anderson. Ye telling me, soon after I related to Julie and Gil Editor, moderating the panel, felt like a kid amid his heroes. Thanks to Bob Bailey. arrived in New York, that (and with a wonderful long Julie had expressed an Russ Heath interview interest in having me write something for him in the future. already slated for it, as well!), I wouldn’t bet on it. So, just in case, I’ll jot down here a few not-quite-random thoughts about the man alternately referred to in these pages as “Sabertooth,” “Blackheart,” and “The Living Legend”—before I turn the remainder of the issue over to others.
Julius Schwartz was the first pro who ever sent me a personal letter. One day in 1960, at age nineteen, I sent three letters to DC—one each to “the editors” of The Flash, Showcase (“Green Lantern”), and the new “JLA” series in The Brave and the Bold. One of those missives got printed in Green Lantern #1—my first published LOC. But what’s important is that, though I’d been too naïve to realize it, all three of those comics were edited by the same man, one J. Schwartz—and perhaps it was seeing three very similar letters come in from the same reader at the same time that led him to respond. Who knows? If I’d known Julie edited all three mags and had only sent one letter, he might not have. And, because my later letters mentioned my love for the 1940s AllStar Comics, Julie informed me in November that both the original “Justice Society” and the current “Justice League” had been scripted by Gardner F. Fox, whose name I recalled from ’40s “Flash” logos. He even sent me Gardner’s home address, in case I wanted to write him directly. (I never did learn if he cleared that with Gardner first!) It was Gardner, a week later, who responded with his own gracious letter—which included the address of one Jerry Bails, a Detroit college prof who had purchased Gardner’s bound volumes of All-Star (I had asked Gardner if he happened to have any old issues lying around the house that he wanted to get rid of). Correspondence with Jerry, in turn, put me in on the ground floor when he developed the concept of a comics fanzine to be called Alter-Ego, the first issue of which hit the mails in March of 1961. Quite a fast turn of events over those four months. Over the next few years, Julie would send me advance information on
Since I ankled DC after two weeks and spent the next fifteen years at Marvel, and Julie rarely attended conventions or other comics-related functions in those days, our paths seldom crossed over the next few years, though our relations were always cordial. Still, when I turned down a third three-year writing contract with Marvel in 1980 and accepted one with DC, it was for Julie that I concocted my very first DC plots—for DC Comics Presents #33-34, in which Superman and Captain Marvel switched bodies. And wouldn’t you know—that’s when Julie and I had our first spat! Julie, of course, had long been used to getting little if any static from writers like Gardner Fox and John Broome… while I, in turn, had been either de facto or officially my own editor at Marvel for the preceding decade-plus. So when Julie’s assistant E. Nelson Bridwell edited out of DC Presents #34 two lines of dialogue which were a set-up to later lines—and left in the later lines, which made no sense without the setup—I was quick to complain to Julie: “I don’t object to editing—but I do object to bad editing.” Actually, I had considerable respect for Nelson and liked him as a person—but I don’t suppose my comment was designed to get Julie and me off on the right foot. Other faux pas on my part, and maybe even on Julie’s, followed on a few other occasions we worked together in the 1980s. Publisher Jenette Kahn and her crew had verbally assured me that DC editors would be there to “help, not hinder” me, and I had taken that to mean that my plots and dialogue wouldn’t be altered without consultation. Since that wasn’t Julie’s way, the grounds were set for a head-on collision… a collision that, thank Crom, we usually managed to avoid. Once I did lace into him on the phone when, after he offered me the writing of a particular adaptation for one of the science-fiction graphic novels he was editing, someone else wound up doing it, and Julie seemed to have totally forgotten our previous conversation. But we got past that, as we got past other minor hiccups.
Julie, Julie, Julie Personally? Well, I liked Julie a lot, and I’ve been told by others that he liked me—yet there was always a certain distance between us. Various people, even in this issue, have said that one had to work at being Julie’s friend, and I don’t think I ever put quite enough effort into that aspect of things. I was content to run into him occasionally at conventions or elsewhere, and to trade a few barbs with him. About those barbs: Julie loved insult humor, which often seemed his preferred mode of conversation with Marv Wolfman, Len Wein, Harlan Ellison, and others. Talkative as I might be, my own Midwestern background—I sometimes feel like a refugee from Garrison Keeler’s “News from Lake Wobegon”—inclines me to strive to avoid verbal confrontations, even basically friendly ones. I suppose I was more likely to bristle and sulk than to trade barbs. Every time I’d get on the phone with Julie—and I did so fairly often in recent years, especially after I began editing the new volume of Alter Ego, to which Julie’s body of work was so very important, and when I’d hear his health was failing— he would treat me as if I were doing all the talking non-stop and chewing his ear off, when in fact (with Julie and Gil Kane, at least, if perhaps not with most others) I knew I was generally doing a lot less than 50% of the yakking. This was just Julie’s way, and I knew it… yet I was never totally at ease in such conversations. Even so, I loved it when he began talking spiritedly about the old days of science-fiction pulps, and he seemed genuinely impressed once when he asked me if I had heard of sf writer Stanley Weinbaum, and I told him I had even adapted Weinbaum’s “A Martian Odyssey” into comics form in the 1970s. It was science-fiction, far more than comics, that Julie loved. Note which of the two is mentioned first in the subtitle of his 2000 book, Man of Two Worlds. That’s not just chronological order at work there. But—enough! If I go on like this, I’ll make you think I didn’t love and revere Julie Schwartz—and I most definitely did and do! No matter what Julie dished out, I’d respond in my own Missouri way but then come back for more, because of my respect, nay, awe for the man and what he had done. I was depressed for days after I learned he had passed away, even though it was not unexpected, and I hoped to attend his memorial service—but alas, DC scheduled it on a morning, and I couldn’t get to New York by train before noon, so I had to miss it. But I
3
thought of him, around the time I knew the service would be going on. I was with him and his other friends in spirit. Because of the contrast between his New York manner and my own nature, I suppose, I rarely got the “best” of Julie in our barbs-trading. Only once, that I recall, did I leave him without a quick and withering verbal comeback. Sometime in the 1990s, when Dann and I were still flying back from South Carolina to attend the San Diego Comic-Con, I was talking amid a crowded dealers’ room with artist Rick Hoberg and a couple of other people when Julie waltzed by. I called out a hello to him. He stopped, and, addressing Rick, et al., more than me, he quipped mock-dismissively: “Roy Thomas! He used to be big in comics!” Without missing a beat, I shot back: “I’m still big, Julie. It’s the comics that got small.” For once, Julie had no comeback. He shook his head, smiled, and moved on… and, happily, we talked at greater length later that weekend. And every time I ran into Rick Hoberg for the rest of the con, he was telling somebody about my little exchange with Julie, which had left him in stitches. Admittedly with a bit of help from Norma Desmond, I had finally— just once—got the better of Julie Schwartz. Except that they don’t get any better than Julie Schwartz. He presided over part of the Golden Age of Comics—he launched the Silver Age—and he was a force to be reckoned with in the Bronze and beyond, as well. Julie, Julie, Julie… why’d you leave us all alone down here after only 88 years? Bestest,
P.S.: Afraid our letters section got squeezed out—again. (Sigh.) ™
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Schwartz and All Great Moments with Julius Schwartz (1915-2004) by Mark Evanier
Julie’s Top Ten! The Living Legend himself at a comics convention—in a photo from the Julius Schwartz Collection—framed by ten of the most important comic book milestones in his long and, yes, legendary career. [Clockwise & in chronological order from top right center:] All-Star Comics #42 (Aug.-Sept. 1948), representing his becoming a full editor, upon Shelly Mayer’s retirement—Strange Adventures #1 (Aug.-Sept. 1950), the comic that returned Julie to his first and greatest love, science-fiction—Mystery in Space #1 (April-May 1951)—Showcase #4 (Sept.-Oct. 1956)—Showcase #22 (Sept.-Oct. 1959)—The Brave and the Bold #28 (Feb.-March 1960)—The Flash #123 (Sept. 1961)—Justice League of America #21 (Aug. 1963)—Detective Comics #327 (May 1964)—Superman #233 (Jan. 1970). If you don’t already know why these mags were important to Julius Schwartz—and to comics—then stick around! [Covers ©2004 DC Comics.]
Schwartz and All [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: The following essay—really, a series of short essays, primarily by Mark but with an added remembrance at the end by Elliot Maggin— appeared on Mark’s website www.newsfromme.com on February 9, 2004, only hours after Julie Schwartz’s passing. Mark is, of course, a TV and comic book writer, most noted in comics in recent years for his hilarious dialogue that accompanies Sergio Aragonés’ Groo the Wanderer. The order of some material below been somewhat rearranged from its original appearance on the website, but is still ©2004 Mark Evanier. The main thing is—Mark tells you just about everything you really need to know about Julie Schwartz, prior to reading the rest of the issue. —Roy.]
5 and their association, and it was the kind of writer you’d be proud to not have like you. Given Julie’s years and position, that is a truly amazing accomplishment: to do so much hiring and firing and rewriting and critiquing… and to be almost completely undespised.
Surely there must’ve been many photos taken of Julie and Mark Evanier together on those dozens of San Diego Comic-Con panels… but, oddly, the only photo of Mark in the Julius Schwartz Collection was this one from the Chicago Con, 1987—minus Julie! (Left to right:) Roy & Dann Thomas, Mark, and Pat Bastienne, longtime DC editorial coordinator.
He was one of the founding fathers of science-fiction fandom and later of comic book fandom. For a time, he was an agent for sciencefiction authors. Among other accomplishments, he sold the first stories by a kid named Ray Bradbury. But you could only go so far in that field, so when he heard about an opening as an editor of comic books, he grabbed it, figuring it might be good for a few years of increased income. On his way to the job interview, he later claimed, he read the first comic books he’d ever read. He apparently gleaned enough of the form, because for the rest of his is life, Julius Schwartz was not only an employee of DC Comics but, some said, the best comic book editor there ever was. His background as a science-fiction fan and agent served him when he helmed comics like Strange Adventures and Mystery in Space, but he really distinguished himself as an editor of super-hero comics.
And the other group that profited from the existence of Schwartz was the readers… those of us who got to buy and read and savor all those fine comics. We loved Schwartz and he loved us, possibly because he had been one of us. He and his boyhood friend Mort Weisinger had published one of the first, if not the first, science-fiction fanzine. Julie loved fanzines. He loved conventions. The last few years, nothing depressed him more than the fear that some physical ailment would keep him from the annual San Diego gathering. (Quick Story: Last year, Julie was reticent to come out because he was having trouble walking and didn’t want to be rolled about in a wheelchair. I asked him why not, and he said, “Because old men are in wheelchairs.” I told him, “Julie, you’re 88 years old. You are an old man.” He still balked, so I said, “Tell you what. Come out, sit in the wheelchair, and I’ll arrange for a woman with large breasts to push you around in it.” He said, “In that case, okay.”)
Perhaps the greatest thing about Julie was that there was so much overlap in the above two groups. He gave many readers the opportunity to become writers and even artists. And he stood on no ceremony: anyone who met him at the conventions can attest to how friendly and accessible he was. He got annoyed with you if you didn’t ask him questions. It’s going to be sad going to conventions without him. Julie died this morning at Winthrop Hospital in New York—around 2:30 A.M. It was not a surprise, and it was one of those deaths that, and everyone reading this will understand what I mean, provides a certain amount of relief. He had been in terrible shape the last few weeks. His hearing was almost gone, and I had to shout to be heard in our last phone conversation. He had been proud and fiercely independent in his
Whatever the “Silver Age of Comics” was, it more or less commenced with Showcase #4, which revived The Flash in a new form and figure. Super-hero comics had been in decline before Schwartz edited that book, supervising and steering the reinvention of an entire genre. It led to more revivals: Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, and (best of all) the Justice League of America. And then, at another company across town, came The Fantastic Four and all the Marvel heroes—all reborn because Julie had paved the route. Later, when sales on Batman were sinking, DC turned to Schwartz to institute a “new look” and bolster the character, which he did. And when Superman was in need of an editor who knew what he was doing, Julie came to the rescue. How many people in this world could say honestly that they saved both Superman and Batman? But the main beneficiaries of Schwartz being on this Earth (as distinguished from the others he presided over) were not comic book characters. They fell into two groups. First, you had your writers and artists who loved working with the man. They found him encouraging, stimulating, and devoutly intent on producing the best comic books humanly possible at the moment. And yes, they sometimes found him maddening to deal with. But despite all the years I’ve been around comics and Julie Schwartz, I’ve only known of one writer who did not love the man
(Above:) Julie in a tuxedo. Why is Julie uncharacteristically wearing a tuxedo? In this instance, the generally information-laden key to the Julius Schwartz Collection says merely: “[no info].” (Right:) The Carmine Infantino/Joe Giella cover of The Flash #120 (May 1961), repro’d from a photocopy of the original, as it appeared in a 1990s art catalog.
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“How Captain Whiz Became The Flash!” The Legendary CARMINE INFANTINO on JULIE SCHWARTZ —and the Secret Origin of the Silver Age Speedster Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash
(Above:) Carmine Infantino and Julie Schwartz at the party held to celebrate the publication of Arlen Schumer’s book The Silver Age of Comic Book Art— Julie’s last public appearance. Note that hardcovers of the pair’s collaborations on Flash and Batman are also on display—as are the ever-present copies of Julie’s memoir. That guy never quit! (Right:) A pencil sketch by Carmine, inked by Vampirella artist Louis Small, Jr., for A/E benefactor Jerry K. Boyd during the 2003 San Diego Comic-Con. Photo courtesy of Joe Petrilak. [Art ©2004 Carmine Infantino; Flash TM & © DC Comics.]
[INTERVIEWER’S NOTE: Carmine Infantino was probably Julie Schwartz’s favorite artist. Carmine’s covers were striking and often original—e.g., Showcase #4, which introduced the Silver Age Flash. Their working relationship lasted almost thirty years—with Julie as Carmine’s boss for the first twenty of those years, and with Carmine as Julie’s boss for the final ten. A few days after Julie died, I called Carmine to discuss those times and his own take on the work they did together. Of course, we can’t thank Carmine enough not only for talking to us so soon after Julie’s passing, but also for drawing a knock-out cover which I had the honor of inking. After growing up seeing Carmine’s great covers on the newsstands, it was a special thrill to work with him. Thanks for everything, Carmine! I appreciate it— and Julie would have loved your cover. —Jim.] CARMINE INFANTINO: With a couple of exceptions, Julie got along with darn near everyone! He was an easy man to be with. You know, Joe Giella was one of his closest friends. Julie made friends everywhere he went, so it’s not surprising to see the outpouring of affection for him since the news of his passing broke. By the way, I had a special arrangement with Julie. I’d bring in a few cover ideas, he’d pick one and then have someone write a story around it. I created characters and story ideas this way. I don’t know if he worked with anyone else this way, but that’s how we did it. Take The Flash, for instance. I’d create a villain, like The Trickster, and bring in a
cover rough. If Julie liked it, then he’d have either Gardner Fox or John Broome write the story. JA: I believe you started working with Julie in 1947. He was working under Shelly Mayer at the time. What do you remember from those days? INFANTINO: Julie only dealt with writers back then. Shelly handled all the artists, so I didn’t have any dealings with Julie until Shelly left DC [in 1948]. Shelly was bringing along people like me, Alex Toth, and Joe Kubert. He was good about directing young talent. When Shelly was leaving the company, he told us that we’d be working directly with Julie. Shelly took me in to meet with Julie. Julie looked at my stuff and didn’t like it. He said, “Oh, okay.” Well, I didn’t say very much after that. JA: What didn’t he like about your work? INFANTINO: I don’t know.
“How Captain Whiz Became The Flash!”
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JA: But you were doing “The Flash,” even back in the late ’40s!
JA: Can you pinpoint when you started working this way with Julie?
INFANTINO: Yes, but I was doing that for Shelly. Julie was only editing copy for Shelly. Julie could be cold and distant when he wanted to be. He’d look at the work and say, “Uhhuh. Okay. Thank you.” He just wasn’t excited about my work. But little by little, things changed. We got to be friendly and he started liking my work.
INFANTINO: It was about the time we started “The Flash.” I had created a feature named “Captain Whiz and the Colors of Evil,” though it never was published. I had tried to sell the idea to Joe Simon, and even though he liked it, he wasn’t interested in publishing it at that point. I was also developing ideas for newspaper strips. Bob Kanigher used to visit me quite often. Kanigher saw those characters and said, “Maybe someday we can work those characters in.” When he wrote the first “Flash” story, he said, “You know those characters in ‘Captain Whiz’? Do you think we can use them for ‘The Flash’?” That’s how “Captain Whiz” became “The Flash.”
Ten or twelve years after I’d been working for Julie, I said to him,”You know, I come in with my work and turn it in to you, get my check and a script, and go home. Do you like my stuff?”
JA: How similar was the Captain Whiz costume to The Flash’s?
Julie said, “You’re getting paid, aren’t you?” That was the end of that. I never asked him if he liked my work again. [mutual laughter] But he wasn’t being derogatory; he was just being Julie!
INFANTINO: It was exactly the same! I didn’t save the drawings, though I wish I had. Joe Simon once wrote me a note, saying, “I wish we’d have gone ahead with those characters.”
JA: Well, Julie was “New York tough.” INFANTINO: You know what it was? He felt if you were a professional, then you should act like one. And he’d treat you like one. If he accepted your work, then he considered you to be a professional and that your work was okay. There was no “ifs, ands or buts” about it.
Carmine-penciled splash from Comic Cavalcade #28 (Aug.Sept 1948), the penultimate super-hero issue of that giant 15¢ title—around the time Shelly Mayer was getting ready to turn the editorial reins over to Julie. Writer & inker uncertain. [©2004 DC Comics.]
My work was getting better and better. I went back to school at night and was developing and changing my style. Julie could see that happening, and it got to the point that, any time he had a new project, he’d ask for me. So he evidently liked what I was doing. JA: In the early days, I take it all your meetings with Julie were short. INFANTINO: Very short. I’d bring the work in, he’d sit and carefully look at it. Sometimes he’d ask me to make minor changes, which I did. After that, he’d give me a new script and off I went. JA: How often would he request changes? INFANTINO: Very seldom—even in the beginning. It was never anything major; maybe a finger or a hand or a nose. Nothing really worth mentioning. JA: Once he started liking your stuff better... INFANTINO: I had less and less changes to make then. But he wouldn’t say he liked the work better. JA: But you had to know he did. INFANTINO: Well, it got to the point that he asked me to start thinking up cover ideas on my own. I’d bring two or three ideas in at a time, and Julie would pick one. Apparently, this way of working was successful, because sales were getting better and better on my books, so we continued to work that way.
JA: Well, he missed his chance. [laughs] Personally, I think the Flash costume is one of the greatest super-hero designs ever: sleek and timeless. [Carmine thanks me for the compliment] Did you have any input into scripts or do any editing of your own once you started drawing the stories?
INFANTINO: No, I never did that. JA: Not even on an artistic level? For instance, if you had a page that called for five panels, would you ever stretch it to six? INFANTINO: No. I always adhered pretty closely to what I was asked to do. JA: There was never a time when you said to Julie, ”This plot point doesn’t make sense”? INFANTINO: No, no. I never saw a need to do that. Julie always edited very tightly. At times there was more rewriting on the scripts than what originally had been written. The only person Julie didn’t rewrite was John Broome. John was absolutely brilliant; I loved his work. He was a genius. Julie worked very hard on Gardner Fox’s scripts. JA: I’ve seen a couple of examples, and it always surprised me how much Julie rewrote Fox’s scripts, because Gardner Fox is famous for being such a good comics writer. INFANTINO: I can’t explain how they worked together, because I wasn’t with them when they plotted stories. When I came into Julie’s office, they’d be sitting there working on scripts. They’d go to lunch, and when they came back, Julie and I would go over what I had brought in. Gardner would wait until I finished with Julie, and once I left, they’d go back to writing. I created the costumes of all the Flash villains. I had costume designs in my files, and when I submitted my cover roughs to Julie, those characters were there for him and his writers to create stories around. I
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“We Called Him ‘Sabertooth’!” Golden/Silver Age Artist JOE GIELLA Talks about His Friend JULIUS SCHWARTZ In photo (l. to r.), Joe Giella, Julie Schwartz, & Carmine Infantino celebrate The Flash’s 60th anniversary at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention, held in June 2000, courtesy of Joe Petrilak. This con was aptly named, featuring as it did perhaps the greatest gathering of Golden/Silver Age comics super-stars in recent memory—as can be seen on various pages of this issue.
Interview Conducted & Transcribed b.y Jim Amash
(Right:) A rare instance of Joe Giella penciling as well as inking a Batman illo— but, of course, Joe drew the Batman strip some time back, and has been drawing the Mary Worth newspaper comic strip for years. Sketch courtesy of Shaun Clancy. [Art ©2004 Joe Giella; Batman TM & ©2004 DC Comics.]
[INTERVIEWER’S INTRO: Joe Giella is a long-time artist who got his start in the 1940s working for Timely Comics, eventually making his way over to DC and editor Julie Schwartz. Joe inked primarily for Julie, delineating Carmine Infantino’s Flash, Gil Kane’s Green Lantern, and a multitude of other material. He was also a long-time friend of Julie’s. Joe was the type of guy who always delivered good work—and on time, too! I’d write more about Joe, but I don’t have to, because in the very near future, Alter Ego will present an in-depth interview with Joe about his career. In the meantime, Joe and I will talk a little about his boss and friend: Julie Schwartz. —Jim.] JIM AMASH: What was it like working for Julie? JOE GIELLA: Julie was a no-nonsense editor. He was very strict with deadlines. When he told you that he needed a job by a certain date, that was it! You’d better get that job in. That one of the reasons I got along with him, because the only time I was ever late was when my dad passed away. I worked with Julie for 35 to 40 years and we got along very well. I remember how I started with Julie. My friend, Frank Giacoia introduced me to Julie, and he warned me that Julie was a tough editor! Despite that fact, Frank still thought Julie and I would get along well. Julie was cordial during out first meeting, and he provided me with work immediately. He liked what I did, and always put me on the top features. And the check was there every week. [laughs] That tipped the scales for me. JA: Since Julie was all business in the office, I assume it took a little time for him to warm up to you, socially.
reason for it. He wasn’t petty and he wasn’t arbitrary. He was a professional and expected you to act as one.
GIELLA: Yeah, it took a while, but I had to work at it. As long as I got my work in on time, and didn’t antagonize him, everything seemed to work out just fine. When his wife Jean wasn’t well, I’d always ask how she was doing. Julie thanked me for asking; he knew I cared. We got to like each other. There were a few people who didn’t get along with him, but I wasn’t one of them.
JA: Carmine Infantino told me that Julie wasn’t the type to hand out many compliments.
JA: Well, I figure most of their dislike would have been because Julie was tough and wouldn’t let them get away with something, rather than Julie just being a jerk. GIELLA: Right. Julie wasn’t a jerk. If he was tough, he had a legitimate
GIELLA: He did a few times, but we had a nickname for Julie. We called him “Sabertooth”! [mutual laughter] I can’t remember whether it was me or Frank Giacoia who gave Julie that nickname. I can tell these stories because I was very close to him; there’s no malice intended. When Julie liked your work, he’d flash his two front teeth: they’d come out like a sabertooth tiger’s, and he’d give you a little smile. He didn’t come out and say, “Awwww, this is a great job!” Carmine was right; he wasn’t like that. He would nod and say, “Good, good. Now, what about the next job? I heard you were going to be doing something else. Is that
“We Called Him Sabertooth!” going to interfere with my schedule?” JA: Julie was the type of guy to help you out if you needed it, too. GIELLA: True. There were a few guys who didn’t feel that way, but Julie was always in my corner when I needed him. There was one time when I needed some money, and I asked Julie if he would set up a meeting between Irwin Donenfeld [DC’s editorial director at the time] and me. I didn’t want to go over Julie’s head. Julie understood my situation, set the meeting up, and I was able to get a small loan. Now, whether he did that for anyone else, I can’t say. JA: Of course, it’s all in how you ask, too.
37 changes on Carmine’s work. I explained this to Carmine, and he understood it wasn’t me—it was Julie. I wouldn’t be happy having anyone change my work, if the situation were reversed. I was always a team player, so I’d do it. Carmine was such a good artist; he could design a page or cover better than just about anybody. JA: How often would Julie ask you to make changes? GIELLA: It depended on who the penciler was. He knew which pencilers needed a slight fix here and there, and which ones didn’t. With Irv Novick, Julie just handed me the pages because he knew how I’d ink them. I never had to make changes on his stuff. The same with Bob Brown and Dick Dillin. There was one penciler’s work that Julie had me making a lot of changes on. It wasn’t that the guy was bad, but I had to pick up the drawing a little bit.
GIELLA: Exactly! I didn’t want to look like I was begging, so I just came out and talked to him. Julie respected straightforwardness, although he wasn’t happy when Mort Weisinger wanted me to pencil and ink the Batman newspaper JA: Was there ever a time that you strip. That was because Julie knew he’d expressed a preference for doing be losing my services. Julie said, “Why features other than those you did? do you want to do that? I give you enough work.” I told him I just wanted GIELLA: No, I never did. I was happy to try something else for a little while, to do all the features that Julie gave me: Along with Batman, one of Joe’s other most high-profile and with the strip, I was penciling and The Flash, Batman, Superman, Green assignments was as the longtime inker of The Flash. Splash of Flash #141 (Dec. 1963) penciled by Carmine Infantino; script inking, whereas with Julie, I only inked. Lantern, Hopalong Cassidy, Wonder probably by John Broome. [©2004 DC Comics.] You know, in that era, newspaper syndiWoman, etc. I was always in Julie’s top cation was considered to be the pinnacle books. If I was unhappy, I would have that all the artists strived for. I was no exception. said something, but that was never the case because Julie kept me busy. I was more concerned with how good the penciling was—that was the JA: Did you pencil much for Julie? key. If you get a job that’s not good, then you really have to knock your brains out to do a decent ink job. Inking isn’t easy—you know that. GIELLA: Most of my penciling for Julie was in the form of doing corrections on the art I inked. I did pencil some stuff for the licensing department.
JA: I sure do. Now, you started working for Julie in 1950. How long did you work for Julie before you became social friends?
JA: Did you ever ask Julie for penciling work?
GIELLA: I’d say about two years. Julie knew right away that he could depend on me. He used to say, “I can set my clock by when Joe brings in a job.” That made him happy. Now, my friend Frank Giacoia was the opposite. Julie used to get unhappy with him, and they would argue about Frank’s lateness. I asked Frank why he had trouble delivering the work. He would say something like, “Well, I really didn’t want to do that job. I wanted to do something else.”
GIELLA: Not really, because he loaded me up with inking work. What spare time I did have was spent working with Dan Barry on Flash Gordon. There was no time for anything else. JA: What do you think there was about your work that Julie really liked—besides your ability to make his deadlines? GIELLA: Julie liked the fact that I took a job and was dedicated to doing my best at all times. In fact, he’d get rid of you if you weren’t like that. Julie used to ask me things like, “What are you going to do with that panel, Joe? I don’t like it. I think it’s a little bit weak.” I’d say, “Don’t worry about Julie. I’ll fix it.” He’d say, “Yeah, but tell me how you’re going to fix it.” I’d say “First of all, I’m going to pick a light source. I’m going to have the light coming from one direction and then put a little darkness here to pick it up, visually. Then I’m going to solidify that shape, and lighten up this other shape, and use a light touch on the backgrounds so they’ll look further away. I’m going to keep the foreground prominent...” And that’s when he’d flash his saberteeth, because he knew I knew what I was talking about. He knew he could trust me. Julie also liked the fact that when he asked me to make a change, I could give him what he wanted. At times, he would ask me to make
JA: What did Julie like to do for relaxation? GIELLA: Play cards. He had a wonderful relationship with his wife Jean. He really adored her. A few months before Julie passed away, we went to the fair and Julie had his wife’s photo with him. She passed away over twenty years ago, but he always carried her picture with him. It was very touching. Julie used to hang out with Bernie and Bernice Sachs, who lived nearby. And when Bernie passed away, Julie kept in contact with Bernice. Our relationship was a little different: we’d go to conventions together and I’d drive him around. JA: What were Julie and Jean like together? GIELLA: They were adored each other. Julie thought about her all the time. Julie used to annoy Bob Kanigher, with whom Julie shared an office. At a certain time, every day, Julie would dial Jean up. He never
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“I Never Felt Like I Was Working For A Boss When I Worked For Julie!” Artistic Great MURPHY ANDERSON on Working with the “Spectre-acular” Schwartz Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash professionally? Like, what would he say if you told him you were going to be three days late on a job? ANDERSON: He’d usually try to work with you on that. I was late a few times... just about everyone was at some point. Other than ranting and raving—which was part of his “schtick”—he was really very good about it. What can I tell (Left to right:) Murphy Anderson, Curt Swan, and Julie Schwartz you? If he could work together in Artists’ Alley in a Chicago Comicon in the mid-1990s— with Gil Kane, and me, flanked by the (signed) cover and splash of Superman #411, the and several others who “Happy 70th Birthday, Julius Schwartz!” issue in 1985. Ironically, that would prove to be the last time the pair of artists, often referred to couldn’t estimate time that affectionately by readers as “Swanderson,” would work together on well, then you know he the Man of Steel. Thanks to Bob Bailey for the art scans, and to A/E had patience and loyalty. transcriber Brian K. Morris for the photo. [Pages ©2004 DC Comics.] But if it got out of hand, then he’d have to do something about it. I never saw him actually dock anyone or take work away from someone—nothing like that. [INTERVIEWER’S NOTE: Murphy Anderson was not only a long time freelancer for Julie Schwartz, but a good friend, as well. Murphy’s slick, organic ink style helped set the DC look for many years, and his occasional pencil-and-ink jobs were well received and fondly remembered today. Now that I think about it, Murphy worked with Julie for as long a period of time as anyone. Not only that, but they were at a lot of the same comic book conventions—mine included. For those unlucky souls who never got to meet Julie, Murphy’s warm, personal remembrances will bring the great man back to life for a few pages. —Jim.] MURPHY ANDERSON: Julie was a great editor, a good man, and a special person. He set standards for others to follow. Beyond that, he was everything you could ask for from a friend. JIM AMASH: What was he like to deal with
JA: Everyone knows that Julie commissioned covers and then built stories around them. When you drew covers, did you bring in one rough or several? ANDERSON: He’d ask for several. When I lived down in Greensboro, North Carolina, I’d come up to the office several times a year to do covers for him. I wasn’t doing stories at this point because I was working full-time for my father’s cab company. I’d jot down ideas on the train to New York and make several roughs. Ideas would occur to me, and sometimes I took rejected ideas
“I Never Felt Like I Was Working For A Boss When I Worked For Julie!” and tried to make them work. I’d jot down crazy ideas. For instance, my wife Helen and I had two parakeets (this was before we had children), so I got the idea of using those birds on a cover. Julie liked the idea, so we did a Strange Adventures cover with parakeets. And working around my dad’s garage... well, he had an antenna. His cab company was the first one to have radios, which required installing an antenna on top of the building. I got to thinking about that antenna and got an idea about a monster coming out of it. I talked to Julie about it and we did a cover with that theme. The “Pit and the Pendulum” cover for the first Adam Strange Showcase [issue #17] was my idea. We couldn’t work this one out, though I had the idea for this kind of cover a couple of times before. Julie hadn’t given me details about Adam Strange yet, so I had no idea what his plans were for the character. I worked up a cover with the guy swinging on the pendulum and Julie wanted me to dress him up in a futuristic costume. The costume was more or less a Buck Rogers costume with a little Flash Gordon thrown in. We played with the idea, and Julie wasn’t happy with what I was coming up with. He didn’t think it looked quite right. It was late afternoon and I had a train to catch, so Julie said we’d have to put the idea aside. I said, “Maybe I could come up with the right idea? I think I know what you’re looking for. I’ll do the cover and send it to you. If you don’t like it, then don’t use it.” Well, he didn’t use my cover, but he did use the costume. JA: Whatever happened to that cover? ANDERSON: I have no idea. I never saw it again. I wrote a cover letter with that package and made a carbon copy of it, but I’ve somehow
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misplaced it. In the meantime, Julie had Gil draw another cover for the first “Adam Strange,” but I don’t remember how different it was from mine. Gil’s was a little more “Kirby-ish” than mine, and maybe that’s what Julie was looking for. Gil changed the costume a little bit, but not by much. I don’t think I gave Adam Strange sleeves, and Gil drew him so it looked like he was wearing a t-shirt. That didn’t last. The rocket belt was my idea, though I made it more like a Buck Rogers’ belt. Who changed it to a rocket pack, I don’t know. That’s something I’d have argued about, because it looked like Adam Strange would burn his fanny off every time he turned it on. But when Dave Stevens created The Rocketeer, it didn’t seem to bother him too much. I thought the Buck Rogers thing would have been better. JA: Did you socialize with Julie when you worked for him? ANDERSON: We socialized. Julie and his wife Jean were my guests and my mother and father’s guests. When I was going back to North Carolina on one trip—I was driving a Buick convertible—Julie and Jean went along. That was kind-of interesting. My mother was a Baptist, and we got to her house on a Friday. She had made a big chicken dinner, and of course, back then, Catholics didn’t eat meat on Fridays. She didn’t think in those terms, so she made a big feast. I remember Jean was put off just a bit by that. That was the trip where—just for Julie’s benefit—I stopped the car when we got to the North Carolina border, got out, and kissed the ground. [mutual laughter] Julie never forgot that! He often told that story. When I decided to leave the taxi business, Helen and I bought a house and moved to New Jersey. I was freelancing for Julie and working at home. One day, I told Julie I needed to take a week off and he asked why. I told him I had to paint the house. He said, “Paint the house? You can hire somebody to do that.” I said, “No Julie, it doesn’t quite work that way. I’ll save money if I do it.” Julie said, “But you’d be working.” I said, “Yeah, but I’ll save money. You don’t know how much painters charge.” He couldn’t understand the logic of that. And he loved to tell that one on me, too.
While drawing “Captain Comet” and other science-fiction features for Julie in the early ’50s, Anderson kept his hand in at other companies. “The Guardians of the Clockwork Universe!” by “Edgar Ray Merritt” (probably still writer John Broome) and Murphy, from Strange Adventures #22 (July 1952), is clearly a forerunner of the Guardians of the Universe in the 1960s-70s Green Lantern— while the page at right appeared in Standard’s Fantastic Worlds, which ran for three issues in 1952-53, and resembles his work on the Buck Rogers newspaper comic strip. Thanks to Bob Bailey for a scan of the latter—even if we’re not sure just what issue it came from! [“Captain Comet” splash ©2004 DC Comics; Fantastic Worlds page ©2004 the respective copyright holders.]
JA: Yeah, Julie told me that one. He also told this story: he was annoyed at Bob Kane’s refusal to admit he had ghosts drawing his “Batman” stories. One day, Kane came in with a story and Julie said he didn’t like the way Kane had drawn Batman’s arm in one panel, so he asked Kane to redraw it. Kane went into the bullpen, and returned a few minutes later. Julie said, “This looks worse than it did before,” knowing that Kane hadn’t originally
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A Testimonial for Julius Schwartz by Harlan Ellison ©1997 The Kilimanjaro Corporation [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Harlan Ellison will be well known to many readers of A/E as one of the premier science-fiction writers of the 20th century—not that he’s retired in the 21st! His moving remembrance of Julie Schwartz, titled “Softly; A Legend Passes” was read at the March 2004 memorial service held for Julie in New York City, and will be featured in the transcription of that event two issues from now. Harlan also located the following piece about the fabled DC editor (and his longtime good friend) that he wrote in 1997—though he’s not certain of the precise occasion—and he and his wife Susan sent it along to us, along with several of the photos which appear on this page and the next, and which are used with their permission. —Roy.] Schwartz? You want a testimonial for Schwartz? Is that what you’re asking for? A testimonial, right? Something that reinforces this “living legend” business, am I right, am I getting this right? Something that exalts, something that lauds, some wonderful words that extol, that eulogize, praise, flatter, enhance, and ennoble. Have I got it correctly, what it is you want? Well, just let me tell you…. Schwartz: When they excavated the buried ruins of the ancient Sumerian city of Uruk in 1912, there on that lower Mesopotamian plain where, 3500 years before the birth of Christ, were written the earliest words of mankind, the great Gilgamesh legend… there, there in the great Limestone Temple were unearthed the shards of an alabaster cult vase, pictographically engraved with the heroic story of Schwartz the Slayer. We’re talking Schwartz here! Tribute, testimonial? I’ll give you testimonial!
Harlan and Julie at DragonCon, Atlanta, 1998. Photo by Beth Gwinn from the Julius Schwartz Collection.
Julie Schwartz and Harlan Ellison in the latter’s Art Deco dining room, with sf author Alfred Bester’s Grandmaster Award, presented by the Science Fiction Writers of America.
Schwartz: In 1976, when they discovered the terracotta army of China’s first emperor, Qin Shi Huangdi, there in Shanxi province, eastcentral China, the most startling aspect of the unearthing of those thousands of sculpted warriors was that eleven out of thirteen statues bore the unmistakable countenance of He Who Must Kvetch, the great Schwartz! We’re talking the Schwartzmeister, can you hear me? Word! Schwartz: When they finally found the crumpled and shattered corpse of the Titanic, at a terrible depth below the North Atlantic, and they circumnavigated it for the first time with the mini-sub, they found—amazingly, astoundingly—the golden figure of Schwartz the Great Navigator still standing at the ceremonial helm, where it had been placed by the owners of the White Star line prior to the great ocean queen’s maiden voyage. Unsullied by anemone or acid wash, there stood the heroic Schwartz simulacrum, untarnished by time, noble even at the deepest dark of the cruel downbelow. You ask me about Schwartz? You want mere words to encompass the grandeur, the heroism, the incomparable singularity of wonder we are blessed to have with us? The immortal Schwartz, you want I should sum him up in one measly testimonial? Phah! Better to ask how bright shine the stars, how mournful cries the wind, how deep is the ocean, how high the sky! He is… Schwartz! Let the name ring down the halls of Forever. I say again… SHUH-WARTZ! Ask no more of me.
Julie, Susan, and Ray Bradbury at the Pacific Dining Car restaurant, circa 1990.
A Testimonial For Julius Schwartz
(Left to right facing front:) Harlan, author Dan Simmons, Julie, & unknown.
Julie and Susan Ellison—in the Ellisons’ kitchen.
One living legend bookended by two others! Harlan Ellison (center) with Stan Lee and Julie Schwartz.
The Fantastic Four (left to right): filmmaker Ray Harryhausen, Ray Bradbury, Harlan, and Julie, at the 1998 DragonCon. From the Julius Schwartz Collection.
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