Dance Central November / December 2017

November/December 2017

Dance Central A Dance Centre Publication

New Spaces Creating Connection A conversation with Margaret Grenier Page 2

About Dance Central A conversation with Andreas Kahre Page 6

Welcome to Dance Central

Welcome to the Winter 2017 issue of Dance Central, which features a conversation with Margaret Grenier, artistic director of the Dancers of Damelahamid and a member of the Board of Directors of The Dance Centre. We are very pleased to announce that we will be continuing our series on indigenous dance and dance artists that we began in 2016 with her guidance and support.

The second feature of this issue is a conversation with Andreas Kahre, who has been editor and art director of Dance Central since 2011, in an attempt to reflect on the developments that have taken place in the performing arts in Vancouver over the past six years, and to imagine where we may find ourselves as we move on from here. It is also an invitation to participate and strengthen the role that Dance Central can play in the dance community.

As always, we thank all the artists who have agreed to contribute and we welcome new writing and project ideas at any time, in order to continue to make Dance Central a more vital link to the community. Please send material by e-mail to members@thedancecentre.ca or call us at 604.606.6416.

We continue to look forward to the conversation!

Andreas Kahre, Editor 2

Dance Central November/December 2017

Creating Connection A conversation with Margaret Grenier

Margaret is the Executive and Artistic Director for the Dancers of Damelahamid. She

Following last year's inaugural series on indigenous

choreographed the full-length works Setting the Path 2004 and Sharing the Spirit

dance artists, we are hoping to create the framework

2007, which toured internationally to New Zealand in 2008 and the 2010 World Expo

for an ongoing presence and dialogue with First Na-

in Shanghai, China. Her other works include Visitors Who Never Left as a site specific

tions artists and community members.

work in 2009, Dancing our Stories 2010, Spirit Transforming 2012, In Abundance 2014, and Flicker 2016. Margaret has directed and produced the Coastal First Nations

AK: In reading the artistic statement of your company,

Dance Festival since 2008. Margaret holds a Masters of Arts in Arts Education at

the Dancers of Damelahamid, I was struck by a pair-

Simon Fraser University. She was a sessional instructor at Simon Fraser University for Foundations in Aboriginal Education, Language, and Culture in 2007. Margaret was a faculty member for the Banff Centre Indigenous Dance Residency 2013. Margaret presented at the World Indigenous Peoples Conference on Education in Australia 2008, Peru 2011, and Hawaii 2015. She serves on the Board for The Dance Centre as well as the Canadian Dance Assembly.

ing of mandates: on the one hand, a commitment to a trans-generational approach to your work, and at the same time the development of the form. The transgenerational aspect is of course one thing that sets First Nations dance apart from many non-indigenous forms of dance — other than perhaps through the lineage of techniques. How do you approach that idea?

MG: I think it is a process that has been transformational within our own company over the past seven years. Up until 2010, the year that my father passed, I had always practiced hereditary dances within our family’s lineage.

That's what I grew up with and that's the training and the foundation that I continue to work from. However, when my father passed, and the authority of those dances was moved forward within the lineage, I began to understand a lot of the politics surrounding the way in which the dances were cared for, and the differences in opinion as to how they are intended to be shared.

For myself, I really realized the privileged position that I came from, having been born into a very strong lineage that had done a lot of work to preserve the art form. In that regard, I have a different story than Mique'l Dangeli, for example, whose community went through a great deal of loss and then did a lot of work to bring their songs and dances back. Within my family lineage, as an ongoing effect of the potlatch ban, we had not been able to practice our art form regularly, but we still had family members that maintained the knowledge and passed it forward. Part of me began to realize and question that in many ways the practice of only maintaining hereditary dances was not reflecting a lot of the changes that are currently limiting access to these practices by a good number of people. This relates to the fact that it is matrilineal, that there has been a lot of disconnection within our colonial history, that different communities have been affected differently, and that there has not always been agreement within families, so there are many reasons why the art form is becoming more and more

Dance Central November/December 2017

3

Creating Connection A conversation with Margaret Grenier

to others. If I follow a practice in a matrilineal structure —for example, I am Gitxsan on my father's side — how does that shift in my identity and my children's identity, and their connection to everything. The question

limited. It is time, I feel, to move forward when there are so many

goes to very fundamental parts of myself that have not

people that need to access our practice, and when I consider

been an easy thing to navigate, but the work in itself is a

what dance has done for me in terms of grounding my identity,

healthy way of moving those hard questions forward.

and connecting me to land and language. It also carries with it a lot of politics that I think in part are there to hold and take care

AK: Among non-indigenous communities in Vancouver

of something, but in part are also the result of the disconnection

you can observe an increasing effort to acknowledge

that we are faced with in our communities and with our history.

First Nations territory. It may still be mainly symbolic, but at least it recognizes the presence of indigenous

I don't think that without going through the challenges I went

culture in the present political framework. Different

through at that time, having to look at what I was taking for

nations are named, sometimes accurately, sometimes

granted all my life, that I really would have had the courage to

not, but I wonder if the process doesn't also, perhaps

look at other ways to create within the form. At that point, I had

involuntarily, present a notion of an overarching 'First

been directing the company for close to ten years. We were

Nations identity' that is not altogether different from

unique in our practice in that we were sharing our work in the

the way the Indian Act once expressed a presump-

form of dance 'productions', we were formalized as a dance

tion of cultural homogeneity. There are many different

company, and we had started to produce the West Coast First

ways to categorize peoples, as Non-Western 'ethnic'

Nations Dance Festival, but our focus was still on going back to

cultures, and I wonder how it is observed from within

what had been archived, and on continuing to strengthen the

indigenous communities. How do nations, families and

form in that way. I think that the changes that have taken place

individuals experience this pressure to function as an

since then have not been about letting go of anything, except

'other'?

for something that was imposed by the political environment surrounding it, but for me it has been just like any other mo-

MG: I think much of the pressure comes from our own

ment within my family’s lineage, where choices had to be made

disconnection. Like the voice I hear coming from my

as to how to continue to bring life into the work itself, trying to

father, where there isn't a long history of involvement

find answers for myself, and realizing that it was never going to

with outside cultures. For example, my grandmother

be the same answer that my parents came up with, or that my

spoke very little English, and she grew up entirely

grandmother came up with. It was something I had to answer for

within the Gitxsan political and economic structure,

myself, for the sake of my children, and it was literally that year,

even though it was affected by the potlatch ban and by

in 2010, that for the first time that we composed new songs, that

the establishment of the reserves, which would have

we choreographed new dances and that we found our own way

taken place within her lifetime. My father's generation

of creating narrative. If I look at it as an ongoing process I think

transitioned a lot; English was still his second language

the different dance productions mark a place in that process,

but he lived in a world that was primarily shaped by the

but it has never been about working toward that production, but

over framing Canadian economy and political struc-

rather about how these productions can articulate the process

ture, as it was for me, even though I am only Gitxsan on

we are going through in our connection with the art form, what

my father's side. On my mother's side I am Cree, from

it is we are trying to share with the audience and what is tak-

Gillam, Manitoba, very close to Churchill on the Hud-

ing place within us and what are we able to manifest within our

son's Bay. I grew up in Prince Rupert and the reserves

own selves. It is not an easy question to answer, because it is an

along the Skeena River, immersed in something very

ongoing conversation about how to balance that aspect against

specific. Our hereditary dances are carried in such a

how to pass things forward that I think are essential not to be

way that something that goes back even beyond what

forgotten, and also how to navigate it in a way that opens it up

we can give a date to, we can look within the stories

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Dance Central November/December 2017

continued on page 14

"It has never been about working toward a production, but rather about how these

productions can articulate the

process we are going through in our connection with the art form, what it is we are trying to share with the audience and what is taking place within us and what are we able

to manifest within our own selves."

Dance Central November/December 2017

5

Dance Central The Dance Centre Scotiabank Dance Centre Level 6, 677 Davie Street Vancouver BC V6B 2G6 T 604.606.6400 F 604.606.6401 info@thedancecentre.ca www.thedancecentre.ca Dance Central is published every two months by The Dance Centre for its members and for the dance community. Opinions expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent Dance Central or The Dance Centre. The editor reserves the right to edit for clarity or length, or to meet house requirements.

Editor, Art Director & Layout Andreas Kahre Copy Editor Hilary Maxwell Contributors to this issue: Margaret Grenier, Andreas Kahre Photography: Chris Randle Dance Centre Board Members Chair Ingrid M. Tsui Vice Chair Josh Martin Secretary Margaret Grenier Treasurer Matthew Breech Past Chair Beau Howes, CFA Directors Carolyn Chan Eve Chang Jai Govinda Anndraya T. Luui Starr Muranko Dance Foundation Board Members Chair Linda Blankstein Secretary Anndraya T. Luui Treasurer Jennifer Chung Directors Trent Berry, Kimberley Blackwell, Praveen K. Sandhu, Janice Wells, Andrea R. Wink, Dance Centre Staff: Executive Director Mirna Zagar Programming Coordinator Raquel Alvaro Marketing Manager Heather Bray Digital Marketing Coordinator Katrina Nguyen Venue and Services Administrator Robin Naiman Development Director Sheri Urquhart Lead Technician Chengyan Boon Accountant Elyn Dobbs Member Services and Outreach Coordinator Hilary Maxwell Member Services and Development Assistant Anna Dueck The Dance Centre is BC's primary resource centre for the dance profession and the public. The activities of The Dance Centre are made possible bynumerous individuals. Many thanks to our members, volunteers, community peers, board of directors and the public for your ongoing commitment to dance in BC. Your suggestions and feedback are always welcome. The operations of The Dance Centre are supported by the Canada Council for the Arts, the Province of British Columbia, the BC Arts Council, and the City of Vancouver through the Office of Cultural Affairs.

About Dance Central A conversation with Andreas Kahre

DC: You have been editor of Dance Central since November 2011. What have you discovered during that time?

AK: How diverse and at the same time interconnected the dance community in Vancouver has become, how much it is growing in representing a wide range of cultural practices and how much dance artists have developed their ability to articulate their work in both a political and aesthetic context.

Compared to twenty-five years ago. It has become more self-aware, more open to interacting with a global artistic community, more political, and it has developed a sense of humor that wasn’t always in evidence.

DC: How has the publication changed since you began?

AK: When I took over from Eury Chang, Dance Central was a membership newsletter that featured events at Scotiabank Dance Centre, published occasional reviews and contained a bi–monthly calendar. Having grown out of the early desktop publishing era, it was built on a Quark Xpress template and was emailed to members as a printable pdf file. Publications were going through a dramatic change at the time; print publications were amalgamating or going under, the cost of printing and distribution was rising while advertisers were moving to online platforms. This was also the aftermath of a dramatic cut in provincial arts funding through gaming, and the end of the Olympic funding bubble. Dance Central was going to have to change in order to survive, and operate in a very different publishing environment.

DC: What did you do?

AK: Three things: We shifted Dance Central to issuu.com, from a hybrid to a pure online publication — albeit still in a printable format; Dance Central still goes through a full pre-press stage and could be put on an offset press tomorrow. Next, we shifted the calendar and notification functions to The Dance Centre’s website and email communications, which had become the vehicle that most members were using to receive news and event notifications anyway. This meant that we had no printing and distribution cost, and no advertiser-driven timeline but we also had no budget to

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Dance Central November/December 2017

pay writers, and so we shifted the mission of the publica-

DC: What is the difference between an interview and

tion: Dance Central is meant to provide a platform for dance

a conversation?

artists, curators, designers and others to reflect on their practice, and to explore questions in conversation, and in

AK: Hopefully, a conversation leaves room to explore

more depth than is possible for example in a Georgia Straight

questions that go beyond the frame of a conventional in-

interview meant to advertise an upcoming show.

terview. Some artists treat it like an interview, but many do accept the invitation to take advantage of the fact that this

DC: Do you not schedule these conversations to coincide

is not about advertising a show but to share ideas with the

with performances?

dance community of colleagues and collaborators. It was also important for us to focus on dance artists and artists

AK: Sometimes, but it is important not to let that drive us.

working in a dance environment rather than on the more

There are numerous ways to advertise events online, but

traditional role of choreographers.

few opportunities to reflect on your work. Social media is not suited to the long form, blogs tend to be soliloquies, and

DC: Why not focus on choreographers?

among (albeit virtual) print publications, we are in a unique position of not depending on advertisers.

AK: Because the traditional model of dance creation was shifting. Traditionally, choreographers have been the centre

DC: How does that change the role of a publication?

of the process, and therefore of media attention, but dance creation was becoming more collaborative; performers

AK: You gain in flexibility what you lose in revenue. Dance

formed collectives, the boundaries between movement

Central typically has about 20 pages of content. That is

and media were shifting, contact improvisation became

the equivalent of a 48-page trade magazine, which has no

an important source of the movement vocabulary, and the

option, but to remain, let’s call it ‘responsive’ in scheduling

relationship between dance and music changed. Many

and I would argue, in editorial content, to its advertisers. To

choreographers relied on performers improvising as a

prevent undue collusion, publishers preach what they call

source of movement creation, in a similar development

the separation of ‘church and state’ (an unfortunate meta-

to what had been taking place in music. Choreography

phor, given what actual goes on), but our situation allows

remains important, but so are the voices of other creators,

us to focus on the content rather than manage forty or fifty

and that is where Dance Central has an opportunity to play

advertisers. Remember that Dance Central is made by only

a useful role.

two people.

DC: How did the current format develop?

DC: Before Dance Central, you edited FRONT magazine (a print publication by the Western Front) for ten years. What

AK: We began by creating ‘series’ that framed the conver-

was similar, and what was different?

sations thematically, starting with an ongoing feature called Thinking Bodies, that focuses on performers who worked

AK: Like Dance Central, FRONT had no budget to pay writers,

as freelance dancers, or sometimes members of collec-

which precluded running it as a review magazine. Instead,

tives, but may not identify primarily as choreographers.

we focused on creating a print platform for original work.

With Dance Central, the question was how to turn the same

Each year has also had a thematic focus: We began with

limitation into an opportunity, so instead of writing about

Legacies, since the Vancouver dance community was going

dance, we invited dance artists to talk about their work and their experiences in the context of a ‘conversation’.

continued on page 10 Dance Central November/December 2017

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September/October 2013

May/June 2014

Dance Central

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

July/August 2016

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

Content "I Love Dance Deeply but I also Hate It" A conversation with Lee Su-Feh Page 2

Content

From the Executive Director

by Mirna Zagar

Content

Page 6

Opening The Third Space Alvin Erasga Tolentino Page 1

All Bodies Dance A conversation with Naomi Brand

Rethinking 12 Minutes Max a conversation with Claire French and Mirna Zagar

A Note from the Executive Director Mirna Zagar Page 4

Dance Centre Open House: Schedule of Events

Page 2

Notes from the Executive Director

by Mirna Zagar

Page 9

Page 8

Thinking Bodies Karen Jamieson talks about her solo|soul Project

Designing Dance: A conversation with Barbara Clayden Page 10

Page 6

Outside The Bubble A conversation with Ben Brown

Page 10

Page 8

September/October 2014

Dance Central

March/April 2015

Dance Central

July/August 2015

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

Content Content

Content

Migrant Bodies A conversation with Sammy Chien Page 2

Speaking Memory A conversation with Serge Bennathan

On Attention: A conversation with Jennifer Mascall

Pure Fracture Noam Gagnon

Page 2

Page 2

Page 8

Farewell Grant Strate

by Mirna Zagar

Migrant Bodies: Final Words

by Ginelle Chagnon

Undivided Colours Art and Gender Symposium Preview

Page 9

Designing Dance Natalie Purschwitz

Page 8

Moving Protocols: A conversation with Heidi Taylor

Page 12

Page 10

Page 10

March/April 2014

November/December 2014

Dance Central

March/April 2016

Dance Central

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

Content

Content

What will we see next?

A conversation with Crystal Pite Page 1

In A Certain Space A conversation with Sujit Vaidya Page 2

Dancing Our Identity An essay by Mique'l Dangeli Page 7

We Need Wood!

A conversation with Sas Selfjord Page 10

EU Travellogue

by Mirna Zagar Page 4

The Gathering Web Forum Page 9

Thinking Bodies A conversation with Rosario Ancer Page 10

Lola Award 2014 Page 15

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Dance Central November/December 2017

Content Migrant Bodies A conversation with Ginelle Chagnon Page 2

Migratory Conditions Mirna Zagar Page 6

Stable Instability A conversation with Ron Stewart Page 8

Undivided Colours An excerpt by Christine Fletcher Page 12

January/February 2015

Dance Central

September/October 2017

May/June 2016

Dance Central

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

A Dance Centre Publication

Claiming Space

Content

Heavy Ground A conversation with Adam Hayward

Contact A conversation with Peter Bingham

Content

Page 2

Page 2

Thinking Bodies A portrait of Vanessa Goodman and Jane Osborne of The Contingency Plan Page 10

Dance in Vancouver The 2017 Schedule

Betroffenheit A conversation with Jonathon Young

Page 6

Page 2

The Power of Dance A conversation with Alvin Erasga Tolentino and Linda Blankstein

Dancing The Spirit Thinking Bodies: A conversation with Madelaine McCallum

Page 8

Page 8

January/February 2016

Dance Central

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

Re-Discovery A conversation with Shay Kuebler Page 2

Page 2

Dance In Vancouver An Invitation

by Mirna Zagar

Page 12

Fall Notes

by Mirna Zagar

Dance Sovereignty Mique'l Dengali

Page 7

Page 8

Page 7

Coming to Stay A conversation with Helen Walkley

Boombox A conversation with Katie Lowen and Diego Romero

Page 2

Feeling Moved Pirjetta Mulari Page 8

Work. Not Practice.

A conversation with Jo Leslie

Page 8

November/December 2016

Emergences Modus Operandi A conversation with David Raymond and Tiffany Tregarthen

A Dance Centre Publication

Content Made in China: A conversation with Wen Wei Wang Page 2

Cultures of Encounter

by Mirna Zagar Page 9

Page 2

Page 8

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

Page 2

New Aesthetics Performance Intensive 2017 A conversation with James Long

May/June 2015

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

Convergences A conversation with Hong Kong Exile

Page 12

March/April/May 2017

Dance Central

Content

A Dance Centre Publication

Content

The Biting School A conversation with Arash Khakpour

Groundhog Days.

A conversation with Alison Denham

Dance Central

A Dance Centre Publication

Performing Space

Content

November/December 2015

June/July/August 2017

Grounding A conversation with Marissa Wong Page 8

writingdancing A conversation with Alexa Mardon Page 10

SPLAY Justine A. Chambers Page 15

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About Dance Central A conversation with Andreas Kahre continued from page 7

through a generational shift, with several senior members

interested in interdisciplinary collaborations: Darcey Calli-

reaching ‘retirement’. We also accompanied several multi-

son, Kevin Stewart, Dancecorps (Harvey Meller and Cornelius

year projects that The Dance Centre was participating in,

Fischer-Credo), JumpStart (Lee Eisler and Nelson Gray), Karen

notably CO:LAB, Triptych and Migrant Bodies, with a series

Jamieson, Jennifer Mascall, Cheryl Prophet and Chick Snip-

of interviews and conversations. We also added Designing

per, among others. More recently, I have worked with Ame

Dance, which invites designers, photographers, composers,

Henderson and Matija Ferlin, Amber Funk Barton, and Paras

stage managers to join the conversation, and continues to

Terezakis. Perhaps the most important artistic relationship was

this day.

the collaboration with Lola McLaughlin that continued for more than ten years.

Next we began a series called Critical Movements that focused on artists whose work centred on questions of

DC: In what capacity?

aesthetics and performance theory; dance dramaturges, writers, and curators. This year we inaugurated Dance

AK: Initially as a musician, but that shifted toward set and

Pedagogies, which focuses on dancer training, and Emerg-

sound design and what would be best described as scenog-

ing Bodies, which acts as a showcase for emerging dance

raphy, which is, as I would describe it, a way of thinking, from

artists. Performing Space is centred on sited performance

a dramaturgical perspective, about space as a performative

strategies, and Other Movements continues to give room to

presence, or in more contemporary parlance, as an actant.

things that just won't fit anywhere else. In 2016, we began

Different projects required different combinations of skills, and

a series on First Nations, originally introduced by Migue’l

often the roles overlapped. Opinions differ.

Dangeli under the title Dancing Sovereignty, which will be continuing with the guidance of Margaret Grenier.

DC: You also worked with theatre companies?

DC: How and why did you become involved with dance?

AK: Yes, although the boundaries were blurring already. I am what is called an ‘artistic associate’ with Radix Theatre, I

AK: My background is in visual art and music, and in the

designed, wrote, or dramaturged seventeen of Rumble’s first

early 1980s, I began to collaborate with students in the per-

shows, I worked with Touchstone, Theatre Conspiracy, Pink

forming arts program at SFU (I was a student at UBC at the

Ink, the Electric Company, Ruby Slippers, UBC, Gateway, Rimini

time, but I was interested in interdisciplinary collaborations,

Protokoll, Marie Clements, and Horsehoes and Handgrenades,

in performance art, media, improvised and computer music

and somehow I managed to collect twenty Jessie nominations

— all the things that SFU was the place for in Vancouver at

over the years, but my bank account shows no evidence of

the time.) I attended the first choreographic seminar, mainly

that... Radix, with its perennial failure to stay in a black box has

as a percussionist, and that led to a number of personal and

been my theatrical home for the past twenty years.

professional relationships, which developed into an ongoing involvement with performing and performance artists in

DC: What interests you nowadays?

Vancouver.

AK: Sound installations, sited, devised, media-based art, conDC: With whom did you work?

temporary gamelan and paper theatre. And I love to teach.

AK: I began to work with a number of performers and

DC: Did you ever dance?

choreographers that came out of the SFU dance program and were forming companies or collectives, and were

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Dance Central November/December 2017

AK: After a fashion, yes; once. In the late 80s, I was part of a

as empowerment through technology. collective called Cymbali, with Lorraine Thomson and Kenneth Newby and Michael O’Neill. Like many artists at the

DC: Any lasts words?

time, we did school show tours, with a ‘multicultural’ program that included the travels of a Balinese monkey to visit its

AK: I would like to thank all the artists who have worked

cousins across the globe, and for two years, I had to dance a

with us over the past six years, the photographers who

jig while wearing Oshkosh overalls and a rubber Chimpansee

have allowed us to use their work for the covers (we have

mask, for, as we calculated it, about 10,000 B.C. elementary

included examples from the last three years), The Dance

school students. I hope they have forgiven me.

Centre, its staff and board for their support and patience, and especially Hilary Maxwell, the sharp-eyed copy editor and de facto managing editor without whom none of this

DC: What would you like to change?

AK: I observe a trend that began during the time of the 'Cultural Olympiad' and the dismantling of arts funding that coincided with it, for artists to define themselves as labourers in the 'cultural industry’. It made sense, perhaps, to represent it in this way, if only because this was terminology that politicians understood, but to my mind it collapsed the critical and diverse relationships between people, communities, and the body politic into a matter of negotiations between content providers and employers, for precarious contract labour. I am alarmed to see that that definition of artists as ‘content providers’ is currently re-emerging in the communications by Heritage Canada and the Canada Council. It misses the essential connection between all human endeavours, between process and product, between medium and message.

DC: What do you think of as positive about the situation?

AK: There is more awareness of our global connections, and especially in a situation like Vancouver’s absurd real estate bubble, artists are also activists. I am encouraged by the attempts made to find a critical language for dance, by the fact that the festival and ‘platform’ industry model is being augmented and subverted by other ways of engaging with a public, where we count as more than ‘bums in seats’. I think of dance as having stepped out of its conceptual and aesthetic confinements, and becoming aware of the power that embodied performance has, especially in a cultural environment that is imploding into a state of virtual disembodiment, environmental collapse and totalitarian surveillance disguised

would have been possible. Thank you!

"Compared to twenty five years ago, Vancouver's dance community has become more self-aware, more open to interacting with a global artistic community, more political, and it has developed a sense of humour that wasn’t always evident."

Dance Central November/December 2017

11

"My hope, and perhaps I'm being a litt in this, is to not make compromi the work we do makes compromises, contribute to where people really r continued from page 4

themselves. For example, it is a four-hour drive from the

where we can really hear the individuality and diversity of what

ocean now, so if you are looking at stories where the

is being said. My hope, and perhaps I'm being a little stubborn

ocean shore was present, you know that that is part of

in this, is to not make compromises or feel like the work we do

a very long history. It was always important to identify

makes compromises, but that we can contribute to where people

the story that went with the song and dance, and that

really respond. On one level I think they are already feeling that

it took place in an exact location so that you could go

but on another level, they still want to water it down to a level

there. Part of knowing and being trained in the songs and

that is easier to digest, and I that is the hard part in all that has

dances was to know that location, and how you carry or

happened in this country. It is hard for everyone, not just for in-

embody landscape based on that knowledge — a knowl-

digenous people to get to that place; it evokes negative feelings, it

edge that is not just a fact, but based on how the story

evokes confrontation, it's not easy for many reasons, and not just

connects to my family's history — so I feel that there

a lack of knowledge.

was a great deal of very specific information and ways of looking at the information carried within the dance form I

AK: Although geographically it is much smaller than Canada,

was trained in. I agree that there is a lot of shifting taking

it would be absurd to speak of 'European dance', without ac-

place; people are looking at a generalized understand-

knowledging Europe's vast range of cultures, and identities.

ing in order to grapple with the diversity of indigenous

Take Bavaria; it is divergent in dialects, religions, ethnicities and

languages and cultures and practices, because there is

customs, and yet the mediatized version, packaged and collapsed

so much and we have spent decades simplifying it. So, I

into Oktoberfest kitsch, makes it appear culturally unified, as if it

feel that it is a big part of my personal mandate: To carry

belonged to a theme park. I observe something similar here, for

the uniqueness of who I am within the work that I do,

example with Asian Canadian artists, many of whom make the

to carry that voice forward, even if it is composing and

point that 'Asianness' is created by a mediatized outside gaze.

choreographing in a way of creating something new,

How does it affect the process of defining and maintaining iden-

and my hope is that as we work towards decolonization

tity in an indigenous context?

those individual voices can become stronger.

MG: I imagine that some of your conversations with Mique'l must We just came back from a tour in Quebec, and you

have touched on this because it is not just media but there have

can imagine it was very hard for us not to represent the

been so many voices that have played a role in various capacities,

'whole' of Western Canada wherever we danced. People

going back in our history to the 1880s. For example, Landon King

really wanted answers, and direct translations; 'Tell me

was an artist sent in to document what was perceived as the last

the story word for word', they asked, whereas with any

recording of a disappearing culture, through paintings of different

other contemporary dance piece that is based on a

individuals. That, in a simplified example was influenced by the

Western practice we would not ask those questions, and

fact that he did not like to paint eyes, so everybody in his paint-

there would be room for interpretation and individual

ings had their eyes closed and that gave rise to a concern that

response, but because we are grappling so much with

there was some disease in our communities. I think it is just an

this level of understanding we haven't gotten to a place

example of what is important to realize, how the details of what

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Dance Central November/December 2017

tle stubborn ises, or feel like , but that we can respond."

Creating Connections A conversation with Margaret Grenier

is being written, especially when looking at an oral history and practice that is maintained in a different way, can become very dangerous. In my own family, I struggled a bit with this when I did an undergraduate degree in environmental sciences, and then graduate studies in arts education at SFU, where it was hard to bring in voices that didn't have specific 'credentials'. For example, I could not do a regular literature review for my master’s thesis, because if I had, it would have undermined what I was trying to say, and the work I was doing. I do see a change, in that the conversation has deepened, but it is by no means at a place where we aren't losing as much as we are gaining. And that's why I think it is important for the art forms to articulate something that can counter what people are expecting. That isn't necessarily easy to do, because you may not get the response you are hoping for, but regardless of what you are creating, there is an opportunity for it to push back against the generalizations. They are trying to tell you who you are, and they are telling other people who you are, and by doing that they are making us begin to define ourselves, and there is the danger: We can't all fit that, and the more we have people thinking they can't fit, we find the roots of dysfunction. It's easy when you are looking at a residential school where language is forbidden, but when you look at it in a more abstract way, the way society in general imposes certain limitations to your identity, it has a different kind of danger because it is not so clear, and it becomes internalized. From my perspective it can create a lot of harm if there isn't an opportunity to bring back complexity.

AK: One curious aspect of the distinction between cultures is the division between collective and individual art forms. Western art is almost completely individualized, and where it attempts to be inclusive, it often struggles, and it struggles to embrace collective cultural forms, which by their nature undermine the idea of an individual artistic creator, ownership, and that make concepts such as protocol difficult to understand. How do you experience that?

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Creating Connections A conversation with Margaret Grenier

it as that when I was young; I just danced with my family and community and I never thought of that until I started to take a leading role with the Dancers of Damelahamid that I realized what a choice that was. I also realized why there continues to be a lot of deep–seated tension around those choices, because

MG: I think you have to navigate your way as an individual

there are individuals who really feel that that was a mistake,

within a collective. You have to do that in a way that isn't too

that we need something pure to pass forward, and the only

destructive for yourself, so while it is important to uphold

way to keep it pure is not to expose it, and to maintain it in a

certain challenges you also have to be part of something

very closely guarded way. I appreciate why that is being said,

bigger than yourself that supports you. I had a very beauti-

but I also appreciate that if it hadn't been for the decision to

ful encounter with an elder, when we did a tour of BC two

perform for audiences that didn’t always understand what they

years ago. She was from Nelson, and she met with me be-

were seeing — which then made various types of appropria-

fore the performance and one of the things she said to me

tion possible — if that hadn't happened, I truly believe that a lot

was: 'go where you are loved', and that in many ways an-

more loss would have taken place, and we wouldn’t neces-

swers that we need something bigger. If that is detrimental

sarily be able to connect the generations in the way we have

to us, I think it isn't a good thing. I was trained to think that

been able to. There would have been a generational gap. It was

the whole reason why we have our oral history that we have

a risk, but a risk worth taking. I don't ever think that I have the

recorded through song and dance, was because that in the

correct answers to those questions, because it is true that you

Gitxsan culture is where song and dance are integral to the

make yourself vulnerable, and you open up a lot that you could

historical and political frame, and it’s our way of holding and

very easily not have to deal with if you didn't do performances,

sharing and connecting ourselves to our territory as well as

and I think we are all finding ways to navigate through that;

to our community. The point is to help us navigate life in a

communities have private dances and public dances, and that

way that supports and strengthens us as a community. The

is becoming a more common approach. It is the same when

hard part is that there can be a lot of oppressiveness and

we do workshops. I do workshops to deepen the understand-

lateral violence. When you look towards protocol or really

ing of what I am doing but it is very difficult to navigate when

clarifying identity in a bigger sense when there has been so

people feel like 'Oh, I have learned West Coast dance and I can

much loss, it can be really hard, but I think that if we look

do whatever I want with that'. For myself it is like any relation-

at the essence of things we can find the place that actually

ship: If you have a superficial relationship, there will be mis-

nurtures our community, that strengthens our languages,

takes, and misunderstandings, but if you deepen it, although

that strengthens who we are. That, to me, is the point of it

that can take a lot of time, you begin to understand what one

all, and the reason for me to do my part to help that.

another is saying in a different way, and that to me is what performing for audiences is about: It is about offering something

AK: That brings up a question of what we call 'audience', in

that can deepen our relationship so we can overcome some

the context of a form that developed in a community, where

of the things that in my heart I don't think we can overcome by

everybody was a participant; where 'presentation' includes

keeping them to ourselves. I completely recognize that is my

the handing on and teaching people about something es-

own opinion and that it is not shared by everyone, but I feel it

sential to their own culture. Is there a way of making the

is important. I don’t think we will move past some of the things

transition between community performance and audience

that need to be healed unless we do that work, and we are just

performance?

going to pass on to the next generation the same problems if we don’t try to do our part.

MG: When I was growing up I didn't realize the decisions that were being made within my family, where the practice

AK: Speaking with Mique'l Dangeli, I was struck by the strength

started coming back in the 1960s. From my perspective

of her connections in a 'vertical' axis, all the way from Alaska to

now, I understand the importance and why the choice was

the Columbia river bar. That 'Cascadian' connection appears to

made to perform our songs and dances, but I didn't think of

be much more important than the border that runs along the 49th parallel. How do you situate yourself geographically?

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"It is time, I feel, to move forward when there are so many people that need to access our practice, and when I consider what dance has done for me in terms of grounding my identity, and connecting me to land and language." and how things are different here, but I also recognize that MG: For me the Coastal identity is very strong. There is a

these other places are very much part of me and the more

big division that takes place once you go to the other side

we can bridge them, the healthier we will be. For example,

of the mountains, and being raised within a hereditary

when we were in Quebec, there was a lot of surprise around

lineage in a Northern community in BC, where there are no

acknowledgment of traditional territory, which has become

pow-wows, it is still very much an overarching presence

somewhat common practice here. People are still learning

of the West Coast. It is a bit different here in Vancouver,

but it is not a foreign concept in BC. In Quebec there were a

but not in the North. For me, because as an individual I also

lot of questions by presenters and audiences to explain what

have a shared Cree heritage through my mother, I think

that is all about. To me that was very surprising. I thought

that I began to become especially aware of that. I was

'How do you not acknowledge the indigenous territory you

raised with personal connections to my Cree family, but

are on, how is that not just integral to your awareness?' I was

I didn't have that strong a connection to Cree language.

used to questions about how you properly do an acknowl-

I have only been to Churchill once, because when I was

edgment, but here people asked me to explain why. That is

studying in Montreal I had an opportunity to do field stud-

something I can see we have gained, and even if is a practice

ies there, I but I also realize that there is so much in me that

that comes from the West, it has something to contribute to

is shaped by my mother's lineage. Our company has done

the conversation of artists in Quebec and elsewhere. I really

a lot of work to find approaches that strengthen what we

hope we won’t always have such a strong divide.

are by connecting with others, and that is also part of my personal process. Questions like why by being on the West

AK: In the European context it is futile to acknowledge ter-

Coast, was my connection to the Cree side of my family so

ritory because the three great migrations have completely

limited, and how does that get expressed in the work that

shifted people and their territories. Very few Central Euro-

I do? It is very much part of who I am, so I think that with

pean cultures have been in the same place for more than

my unique family makeup I certainly experience more of

twenty-five generations, and their departure and arrival was

a connection to other practices in Canada, especially with

marked by territorial conflict. I wanted to ask you about the

Cree being such a big nation. I also have a lot of connec-

term 'company' which connotes a certain way of represent-

tions with South America through one of the dancers, Starr

ing your identity, and how to create a cultural 'product'. How

Muranko who has been with me since the very beginning

does indigenous identity translate into the construct we call a

of our formalizing the company. She is with Raven Spirit

'company'?

Dance, and having her as a part of the Damelahamid family has also really strengthened my connection and under-

MG: For me that has also been an interesting part of the

standing that goes all the way from Alaska to how my

process, because it is like the example of territory. The way

learning has connected me to the indigenous communities

I was trained was that our connection to land and territory

as far South as Cusco. There is something very solid here

is as stewards. The difficult part of the process I have seen

on the West Coast, and I know from my connections to

within allocating land and territory through land title, is taking

other artists that people are aware of West Coast politics

a foreign concept of a map and applying it to the concept of

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"If you have a superficial relationship, there will be mistakes, and misunderstandings,

but if you deepen it, although that can take a lot of time, you begin to understand what one another is saying in a different way, and

that to me is what performing for audiences is about:

It is about offering something that can deepen our relationship so we can overcome some of the things that in my heart I don't think we can overcome by keeping them to ourselves."

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Dance Central November/December 2017

stewardship which does allow for overlap in a very different way that isn't dismissive of authority. If you can't draw a map, being a steward is not the same as saying this parcel of land 'belongs' to someone, and I think there has been a similar process for me in navigating a lot of the terminology involved in formalizing as a company, because I have learned how to articulate what we do in a way that can translate to grant writing, to communication with theatres and other artists, but it doesn’t necessarily change because the Dancers of Damelahamid are family based. We don’t contract dancers the way a great number of artists do. When you dance with us you are basically being adopted into something and there is an expected relationship that goes beyond 'I am going to do these tour dates with you', and that is hard, because the structure of everything right now supports companies that function somewhat differently. We spent fifteen years creating a society, a board, a registered charity. We have a staff, we have figured our names of our staff and the Festival. Finally, the Canada Council's new model says that we can be selfdetermining, but it would be nice if that had happened fifteen

Creating Connections A conversation with Margaret Grenier years ago, because these terms aren't truly the right words to

we had already been looking for a way to bring the festival

describe what is taking place; what I do as a choreographer is

back for five years. I wasn't coming to it with a full under-

not necessarily based on the same approach and methodol-

standing of how other arts organizations operate festivals,

ogy that the word normally encompasses, and that's not just

but our festival has maintained those core values in that it is

true for me, but certainly in speaking to the coming together

about serving the community of indigenous artists. We have

among cultural differences, and that is something I have been

many artists whose practices are for the most part to present

advocating. For the most part, I have found clarity, but when

songs and dances that they share again and again. They cre-

my parents decided to bring our practice into a performa-

ate new songs and dances as well, but for the most part you

tive space we learned how to make that fit, but there are also

see the same songs and dances coming back to the festival

the parts that are non–changeable. You just figure out how to

year after year, and for them that is about what the gathering

make it all work.

does for the artists, and for the audience. It's also about what the festival does for the young people, who have an oppor-

AK: Speaking of words, what does 'Damelahamid' mean?

tunity to be part of these practices, and now there is also an opportunity to share the art form in slightly different ways for

MG: Damelahamid is the name of the place of our original

those who aren't doing the same songs and dances. It is also

cities. It goes back to an origin story — not a creation story,

an opportunity for us to bring in a wider community; even

but the origin of Damelahamid of the Gitxsan, and within that

though it is the Coastal First Nations Dance Festival, we do

story there were survivors of a catastrophic event, and when

our best to bring in artists from different parts of Canada and

they reallocated the city what they established was Damela-

to connect with indigenous artists from other communities.

hamid, which means paradise. For me, it is an encompassing

For me, in bringing these voices together, we are all learn-

term that is not specific to lineage, but it is very specific to my

ing something, and I think that resonates with people from

identity as a Gitxsan, but as with all things, you will hear differ-

everywhere. It's not just about showcasing new work; it's a

ent things as to what it means.

different festival!

AK: Lastly, I am curious about how you use the term 'festival'.

AK: Thank you!

Festivals have become the dominant form of presenting art, in Canada and internationally, even if some artists point out that the presentational format of the festival tends to favour product over process disappears, but of course it is easier to market and to present work in that context. How do you manage the idea of a festival?

MG: I think for us our festival is very unique. There are two reasons we started the Coastal First Nations Dance Festival: One was because when I was growing up my parents had the festival they ran from the 1960s to the 1980s in Prince Rupert, and it was a very big part of what brought community together. I wanted to do something that would bring that back and to offer a place for young people to experience what I grew up with. The second reason was because — and that is still the case, but not as much — there was no place for indigenous coastal dance within other venues for dance presentation. It started in 2008 because of the Cultural Olympiad, but by then Dance Central November/December 2017

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Dance Central

November/December 2017