conversations with the world’s top culinary artists
salty raw. unfiltered. candid.
The Roca Brothers: A Family Affair Disfrutar: The DNA of elBulli Corey Lee: Food is a Reflection of Culture
vol. 1
Here’s to New Beginnings A magazine is not a straightforward proposition. Nonetheless, with Salty Magazine my intent is to present straightforward, honest conversations and narratives that are relatable to the global culinary fraternity. As a novice in this field of magazine publishing, and lacking prior experience in such a venture, I am only fueled by my passion for gastronomy and a vision of providing a platform to share the stories of all those who live, eat, and breathe this industry. After years of contributing to several major publications, I have realized that these conversations, disclosures, and reflections that have so piqued my interest may interest you as well. The heavily edited 8001200-word features in the media usually contain information that is out there already, or merely regurgitate press releases. In my never-ending travels, I’ve interacted with chefs, cooks, winemakers, sommeliers and hospitality professionals who often speak about changing the direction of food journalism and their desire to express their thoughts in their own words. In the course of these interactions, I’ve been inspired to provide a platform for them to do just that. As Chef Alex Atala said best: “[Salty Magazine] will be a place where chefs can really talk.”
If you are curious to know more beyond the viral food photos and Instagram stories that disappear before they have a chance to sink in, you will be inspired by the struggles, failures, successes, and words of wisdom our subjects share. In forthcoming issues, we hope to publish features contributed by many others who have inspired me. Having spent my last three decades in the company of some of the best in this industry, I find myself compelled to share the stories and thoughts of those that have impacted the world of food, especially with the younger generation of culinary professionals. In some ways, my relationships with and respect for many of these greats have made them an important part of my life and steered me in this direction. My hope is to help bridge the gaps between cultures and generations and build a community. As a cancer survivor, I live each day believing there is not a moment to spare, so here it goes. Enjoy the ride.
Geeta Bansal Founder & Editor-in-Chief
FOREWORD Years ago, I was interviewed by Geeta for the first time‌ or was I? To my surprise, I realized I was not being interviewed. Instead I found myself deep in conversation with someone who saw the culinary world with endless curiosity and awe. This is what makes each conversation with her so different and unique, together with her incredible ability to put you at ease. Vibrant but insightful, kind but strong, she is a relentless traveler with a rich palate, solid culinary knowledge, and an intelligent gaze that views the culinary scene from a truly authentic point of view. Over the years I have found that, more than an insightful journalist and a seasoned chef, she is a visionary. She envisions a culinary world that trespasses limits, moves the heart, and changes the world. Any conversation with her makes you aware of her unique perspective and her desire to bring that vision closer to reality. Salty Magazine is the culmination of her endeavors to foster relationships within the culinary fraternity through the exchange of ideas and concepts. With this publication, Geeta and the Salty team have made a great leap in the culinary realm, and it is only the beginning. I am honored to be a part of this endeavor, as it is a vision I, too, believe in.
Joan Roca Executive Chef, El Celler De Can Roca
salty 01 The Roca Brothers: A Family Affair 09 Joan Roca: Transparency and Honest Stories 21 Josep Roca: Wine is a Bottled Landscape 29 Jordi Roca: Dreaming, Provoking, & Playing 37 Quique Dacosta: Perfection is, in Essence, a Utopia 59 Corey Lee: Food is a Reflection of Culture 77 Elena Arzak: The Family Legacy 90 Eduard Xatruch, Oriol Castro, and Mateu Casañas of Disfrutar: The DNA of elBulli 114 Dave Beran: An Evolving Dialogue in Santa Monica, California 128 René Frank: It’s About Happiness at CODA, the Dessert-Only Restaurant in Germany 141 New Openings
The Roca Brothers
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The Roca Brothers A Family Affair by Geeta Bansal
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Joan Roca
You have said cooking is cultural, yet many menus across the board reference outside influences, so which culture do they eventually represent? You cook from your cultural lived reality, from your roots, but you can also get to know and experience cuisines from some other places, that have their own roots. These new experiences take root in your memories once you have tasted them thereby expanding your psychological palate library. They are the new branches in your life and knowledge tree, keeping your roots strong in the basement. I do not think we will lose the authenticity of food over time. I have learnt on my travels that there are numerous chefs around the world who are cooking based on their culture, environment, roots and local culture. Since you travel extensively, what do you visualize as a major change in restaurant operation or cooking over the next decade? I feel it is important for chefs to travel. There is a strong trend in the direction of a cuisine characterized by cooks who aim to find the place where they are in touch with the environment and things that are real and true to them. Our planet is facing a big challenge with depleting food resources, and this will become the focus of cooks and kitchens. It will be more than the current awareness or a romantic notion, but more of an urgency resulting in a sensibility to this cause and a solidarity amongst us to combat hunger. I foresee cooks becoming involved in big campaigns and projects to deal with hunger. If you ask any cook or chef to support these issues, the chefs are liable to give an affirmative response even before learning the details. It is in the DNA of chefs to be sensitive and to stand in solidarity.
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“I foresee cooks becoming involved in big campaigns and projects to deal with hunger. It is in the DNA of chefs to be sensitive and to stand in solidarity.“ Fine dining is changing all over the world, so are there any upcoming changes at El Celler? Are the white tablecloths there to stay? Tablecloths precisely are not going to change. We like the comfort feeling they give, their touch sensitivity, their slight sonority. They are very interesting from a sensory point of view: a white and perfect background where stories can be told. What are the most difficult aspects of maintaining a three-star fine dining restaurant? The focus must be maintained on keeping the fire of passion alive when the rest has been accomplished. It is done by realizing every day that you are lucky to be doing what you wanted to do. Recently, chefs like Sébastian and Michel Bras decided to turn in their three Michelin stars. Is this something we are going to see more of, and why do you think it’s happening? Each case depends on a series of circumstances, and if you consider deeply all of them you find they are very reasonable. Personally, I don’t think this is a general tendency; in our case we don’t consider it.
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Joan Roca
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Salty Magazine With the glamorization of chefs and kitchens, what are some elements being lost in the competitive race for recognition? Success is an opportunity, and one has to learn how to take advantage of it from his or her own ethos. It comes with a big responsibility towards society once the microphone is in front of you. Do restaurant kitchens train interns and stagiaires to pass on knowledge, or, more specifically, carry their own message forward? Do chefs keep all the attention to themselves instead of putting the young chefs’ talents in the spotlight? Both things are important, a transmission of knowledge to the younger generation, but more importantly, also the values. I feel if we pay equal attention to all members of the team, they will be more invested and feel part of the process. Have your and Josep’s sons begun working actively in the kitchen now?
“Cuisine is a wide universe where everybody is free, as in art, to express and create their way.”
They are both working since summer in the development of a project called “Mother Cuisine.” In this project, we recover and research the traditional recipes of Catalan cuisine and also my mother’s recipes. It’s a fantastic training for them. A new book will be the final result. Are ethics and a moral code essential for a cook to maintain authenticity in their cuisine? Authenticity itself should be a moral motto. We think our guests deserve transparency and honest stories. But cuisine is a wide universe where everybody is free, as in art, to express and create their way. We all work to make changes that improve cuisine as a whole.
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Josep Roca Your book Tras las viñas told the story of 12 wine makers from around the world. Is there another book in the works, or are you contemplating writing one? If so, what would be the subject? I am compiling our last years’ work with wine so as to write a new book on wine inside the cuisine of El Celler de Can Roca. Since you co-wrote that book with a psychologist, is there a certain psychological approach to wine or the reason that palates differ so much? I have always been interested in wine through the people that elaborate on it. This philosophical approach from the dialogue between the human being and the forces of nature through wine is what interests me the most. Wine looks a lot like the person that makes it, and so often the person who drinks it looks a lot like the wine he or she is drinking. What is your opinion on natural wines? Do you think their appearance on wine lists and wine programs is a fad, or will it last? I advocate loading ourselves with awareness and emo-ecological consciousness in the world of wine. I support the movements for minimal intervention in both the vineyards and the elaboration process. I take a chance for the diversity and authenticity, and I want to be an ambassador of acoustic wines, full of feelings and a sense of belonging to a concrete place. Wines with a smaller number of sulfites are necessary to move and shake consciousness, to stop and think that maybe the doses on regular wines can be lessened or at least measured more precisely. I understand that if someone gets used to tasting wines with a small number of sulfites, they decide on drinking in those low levels of sulfites. Anyway, I understand that this doesn’t need to be a movement for all the wines, but they must be paid attention to. And behind that movement, there’s beauty, consciousness over effort, austerity, risk, intuition, and an admirable feeling of belonging.
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“Wine looks a lot like the person that makes it, and so often the person who drinks it looks a lot like the wine he or she is drinking. “
Salty Magazine Another trend, particularly at fine dining restaurants, is to include beer, sakes, or fermented drinks in pairings. What is your opinion of such pairings? Yes, absolutely. I understand that harmony is amongst solids and liquids, and in a global and open-minded world, all beverages are welcomed. At El Celler de Can Roca, we have now been working in the past three years on a project called “Ars Natura Liquída”. We propose drinks elaborated at our place, such as liquors, spirits, wines with fermented dried plums that we elaborate as a Mas Molla [Calonge, Baix Empordà] wine and another one made of Terrades cherries. Also, a carob and wormwood beer is about to see the light, as well as a mezcal we make from opuntia cactus and invader species we find next to our place. What is your favorite wine? I could not mention just one wine. One must choose according to his or her mood, the company, the occasion. Anyway, the wines from the regions that inspire me could be from L’Empordà, Priorat, Jerez, Borgonya, German Riesling, Jura, Piemonte… Do you have an anecdote about a guest who was challenging in his or her wine preferences? To design a menu for 35 different Rieslings, create dishes from each one of the wines, or design a menu according to a bottle of wine in a vertical tasting and create a link between a distillate of soil where the vineyards were planted, the taste of its leaves in tempura, the juice of the grapes before the fermentation, and 10 wines from across 10 different years with dishes specially created for each of the vintages... All of that, only to receive a proposal of just Amphora wines...
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Jordi Roca
“If a brilliant idea comes to your mind, it is good to sleep on it and find it again next morning. Sometimes they don’t look so brilliant next morning.”
Your dishes are very playful, and some challenge the established norms or are on the edge. Do you purposely go for shock value?
difficult to translate an idea that sometimes is very abstract into images, sometimes in just a one-minute clip, but Umami Video does it in a spectacular way.
After my brothers’ fireworks during the entire menu and service, that’s my challenge. And I have a commitment to do my best.
Which one has been your favorite?
Was there ever a dessert or idea that both of your elder brothers opposed very strongly?
Rocambolesc Gelataria’s concept has been hugely successful, and in the Chef’s Table episode you referred to your special love for ice cream. What are some new flavors you are experimenting with?
Yes, sometimes there are crazy ideas that I have to rethink after sharing with them. They have never forbidden me to present any dessert creation, but with them I have learnt to rethink. If a brilliant idea comes to your mind, it is good to sleep on it and find it again next morning. Sometimes they don’t look so brilliant next morning. Are you actively involved in developing videos and film clips about your work? Yes! I love to be involved in the creative process. We are very lucky to work with a brilliant production company in our city with a strong link to our team. Joan Gurí, the director of Umami Video, is a genius in his field, and also the husband of Esther Massats, who works at our place, helping us with media and communication. It is very
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Velencoco. It’s awesome.
Now I’m testing pencil and eraser distillates, an aroma that bring us back to school time. Your chocolate factory in your hometown of Girona is under construction. Can you share some details as to what will unfold in the coming months? It was born from the experience that I had with cocoa, and it also represents the reencounter with my master, Damian Allsop. He will be the chocolate master at the workshop, where we want to enhance the aromatic nuances of each origin and variety of cocoa beans but also acknowledge the producers and their work while paying tribute to their efforts.
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Quique Dacosta
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Quique Dacosta Perfection is, in Essence, a Utopia by Geeta Bansal
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Quique Dacosta If you believe in what you are expressing or doing, then do the opinions of others matter? Yes, it’s true, but I’m going to present another extreme example about innovation. Looking at chefs like Andoni Aduriz, Ferran Adrià, Albert Adrià, Joan Roca etc.—we can band all these chefs together, as they have been talking about and doing something innovative in the industry.
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Aren’t they reworking ideas? In the last ten years, the industry has advanced technically, or some things that didn’t exist twenty years ago are now used widely. One singular technology that is brand new is hard to pinpoint. Imagine if you ate the same dishes in Enigma or Tickets that you eat at Dénia, what would you think? People don’t usually know—or are not so well informed as to know—what was first created where or by whom. By the way, speaking of techniques, elBulli was 99% technique.
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Corey Lee
Corey Lee Food is a Reflection of Culture by Geeta Bansal
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Corey Lee
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What does food mean to you? For me it’s really a reflection of your culture. Culture is relative, and everyone has their own center point, but in reality, it is part of a greater thing. At least that is what resonates with me. For me food is a large component of things that make up your culture: your values, your family, and so on. You have a local culture, and also the culture of your own family and your work. Food is a very large part of all of that. It’s very revealing as well. Are diners these days more invested in the experience or the taste? I think there are two types of restaurants. I think there are restaurants that people go to for an experience, and those are the restaurants that I talk about, that often can fall short. It’s because they understand that the diners are coming for this very out-ofworld experience and they focus on things so much outside of their food. While talking about restaurants that you just go to for a lunch, then that’s a completely different experience. I think when you talk about restaurants you have to distinguish between restaurants that are meant to be experienced and restaurants that are just meant to nourish you and provide sustenance. It doesn’t mean that the basic restaurants cannot be delicious or well-done, it just means it’s a different category. So, when you talk about food, you have to differentiate between the type of experience you’re going for, and when I talk about my experiences and thoughts on restaurants, I am referring to just the fine dining world.
How do you feel about negative feedback? I think that’s okay because feedback is something almost completely different from the process of cooking. I know it sounds strange, because I am a chef and I need customers, but I don’t see that as a negative, I see it as a separate thing. What I mean by that is, for example, food is part of your own identity and the culture you are part of. If someone doesn’t like who you are, you just have to be okay with that. Did you always feel that way, or was it harder getting negative feedback when you were starting out?
“...Food is part of your own identity and the culture you are part of. If someone doesn't like who you are, you just have to be okay with that.”
Well, it depends. If the execution isn’t there, something’s messed up and someone doesn’t like it, then yes, of course those things happen. If we’re talking about precise techniques that require certain execution, and it’s flawed in that sense, then yes, of course that is the time for you to find out what went wrong and improve on it. What if someone doesn’t like the core flavors you’re working with or your approach to food? Then you can’t do anything about that.
Was negative criticism more difficult to deal with when you opened your first restaurant compared to now that you are more established? Oh absolutely. I think when you first start out with your own place there is this deep desire to find and fine-tune your culinary voice, but I think there are a lot of other elements of survival that you’re worried about, so you try to address them before
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Elena Arzak
“I was just as much of a risk taker in my twenties and then became more restrained for a while, and now I am back to it. You cannot have one style as a chef forever, and your style changes though the base stays the same.”
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After she finished high school, her culinary education took her to Switzerland and for six years she traveled and worked with many great chefs such as Michel Roux, Michel Troisgros, Pierre Gagnaire, Claude Peyrot, Alain Ducasse, and Ferran Adrià. Her language studies were no doubt an asset since she speaks Spanish, German, French, English and of course Euskara, the language of the Basque Country. Her life revolves around her family: her husband Manu Lamos, an architect, daughter Nora, son Matteo, her parents, and sister Martha, who after studying art history is the Director of Education at the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao. The family bonds are strong, and the doting young mother often shares her mischievous son’s escapades.
food lovers, but also chefs from different parts of the globe make it their first stop in San Sebastián—for the food as well as to visit Juan Mari Arzak and pay their respects. At seventyfive, he is still at the restaurant with Elena every day, overseeing the kitchen and feeding friends and family at its white marble table.
The Arzak restaurant has held three Michelin stars since 1989, and in 2018 was voted #31 on the World’s 50 Best Restaurant list. Not just
Lately, her duties and responsibilities at the restaurant have increased as her father gradually steps back, confident that she will continue to carry forth the family legacy.
Elena has been the recipient of many awards and accolades, including Chef de L’Avenir, the Swedish Seafood Award, the Best Female Chef of the World from the 50 Best academy in 2012, and numerous others. She also serves on the technical committee of the Basque Culinary Center’s World Prize. In any gathering of chefs, the affection and respect her peers hold for her is evident. Her infectious laughter makes it easy to locate her amongst the throngs.
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Your legacy and the family: is it a privilege or a responsibility? For me it’s a privilege because it’s not just a legacy but respect. It’s a matter of huge pride for me and the reason I joined this business, in addition to the fact that I like this atmosphere. I grew up seeing my grandmother, father and mother invested in this business. I imbibed the values from several generations which are very important for me. Even now I can hear my grandmother’s words and advice, and I revisit them again and again. No doubt I have a huge responsibility, because the name Arzak has a well-known history and is famous in the culinary industry. It does exert pressure, but sometimes such pressure helps you work harder and strive to be better. Without such pressure, you can get by without trying to excel, so I feel you always need some pressure. As for me, I am following the story of my family and the evolution with great pride.
You have the persona of an accomplished chef, you are a daughter of the house, a mother, wife, a sister, but underneath all those layers, who is Elena Arzak? I am very much my own person with my own personality, and I am happy to be all these things to everyone, but I am Elena first. A person from the Pays Basque who likes to be around people. I find people mostly everyone interesting. It doesn’t matter who they are or what they do. I like to interact with different kinds of people, and one thing about me that I can say is that I am a very positive person. I feel that life is not as complicated as we make it sometimes. I always find life to be interesting with many things around to discover. As a very practical person, I don’t get upset or aggravated about inconsequential things. My opinion is that we should try to keep things simple
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Elena Arzak You are always so positive. How do you handle negativity or criticism? I learned from my father how to deal with those situations. Of course, like anyone, I get sad when someone says something that I don’t like. Honestly, I react very positively because I feel in order to progress and go far, you need to be willing to accept criticism. There are two kinds of criticisms: one is positive and the other destructive. I feel you need to be able to
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handle all the positive criticism, as long as you teach yourself how to differentiate between the two. If you start to believe that you are the best of the best, then it is not good for your progress. We all make mistakes, and if for instance, you get a comment like, “It was very good but not salty enough,� then it simply means that the seasoning needs adjustment.
Salty Magazine If you had gone out on your own instead of joining the family restaurant and your father, would your life path have been very different? Looking at it one way, I would say yes. Then it would have been more of myself, but on the other hand, it would have been just as busy and hectic as it is now. As for having gone out on my own, I cannot imagine my life away from this restaurant. Coming here is like coming to the dining room or living room of my own home. I see the same faces, personnel and staff who have been here a long time. Even when we change the decor, there are small details like the doors leading into the dining room, which are very old. For me, they are the same doors from 40 years ago, and when I look at them, I feel time has not changed and I am in the same home.
You and your father are consulting on Ametsa in London. Have you ever wanted to open more restaurants? As we spoke about once earlier, chefs these days have become famous and are like celebrities now. We do get a lot of proposals to consult or open restaurants, not because of our fame but because they like our food. Chefs need to know for themselves what they want, and in the case of our family, we can do consulting with our team called Arzak Instruction, and we have a few such projects right now. There are others who can do more projects or open restaurants. It is all a personal preference and attitude. It’s a personality that certain chefs have to do these multiple projects. I respect the chefs who do because they have the capacity for it. If we were all the same, it would be very uninteresting.
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Disfrutar
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“We are cooks and chefs from Catalunya and Spain, but we embrace all cuisines and cook in a very free style.�
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Disfrutar Have you followed elBulli dogma, or are you on your own journey now? E: When elBulli closed in 2011, we stayed with Ferran and started work on Bullipedia, and we worked there till November of 2014. Then a month later, on December 2014, we opened Disfrutar here in Barcelona. Compartir was opened in 2012 in Cadaqués while we were still with Ferran Adrià. We were there for 18, 16, and 15 years respectively, a long time, working every day, giving our mind and body to elBulli and our work. That is still our way of working, to always give it our all. So is your vision similar to elBulli? E: No, no, absolutely not. We found our own way to make and create new things. O: We were part of the DNA of elBulli, and we were part of that whole journey to getting the stars, all the way from two to three Michelin stars. We were the creatives at elBulli, but here in Disfrutar, there is no Ferran, no Juli Soler. Here, it’s just us. We are at liberty to exercise our own creativity. Though we work the same way, this is our only focus and work now. We started the restaurant based on our own skills and creativity, while working from 9 AM every morning until close to get it going. E: There is no Juli Soler to manage the front, and it’s us all the way, from the dining room to the kitchen, and in the management of the business. Our way of cooking, however, we must point out, has not changed. Does your ranking on the 50 Best List or the Michelin stars mean guests have higher expectations from you? Is there more pressure now? E: The difference is that during the time I was at elBulli, where I started in 2008, I went to London with Ferran Adrià to accept the award for elBulli for being the best in
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the world. It was the best, according to the 50 Best list or Michelin guide and all of that, and we were there, working every day, during that period. This time, however, it was for us and our own project. When we were awarded the One To Watch by 50 Best and placed at #55 in the top 100, then the second star, and this year the #18, we were of course overjoyed, but for us nothing has changed in the way we work. We are of course happy for ourselves and the team, but we don’t dwell on it. It’s all great, but we move on to the next stage of our work. We enjoy cooking, as the pressure of stars or lists is good for us, and we are happy in our work. We are very real and honest.
Salty Magazine What is your opinion of chefs being on the road for collaborations and getting involved in social projects? E: It’s nice, but it all depends on the personality of a person. We do what we can but privately, and we have to work hard to pay off all the expenses and costs of establishing our business here. If we have an extra euro, we contribute to where it’s needed. O: We concentrate on using the best products possible and our creativity, never skimping on that, unlike many kitchens, to save money. We see where we can help to the best of our ability but don’t make grand gestures. My brother has an NGO to provide assistance to the less fortunate, and we help in that and don’t make it public.
E: We don’t have a public platform for contributing or helping. It’s a different level of contribution from those who are well established and been in the business for years. If you have patrons or investors and other businesses making money, then of course you contribute more. There are a lot of important projects that we would at some point like to get involved in. If the economics allow you, then it’s good for chefs to become part of them. What are the elements you stress most in the kitchen at Disfrutar? O: We stress using the best products and relying on our creativity. We never ever compromise on the quality of products. E: Taste, texture and good products are most important. I also think about when my mother comes to eat: she has to like it. That is a test for me. How long did it take to break even here? O: We opened and within a month we were very busy, but of course we had a lot of bills to pay and it was difficult. Within three months of opening the restaurant was stable and we broke even. E: We didn’t take out anything for us but just kept putting it back in the business, as we wanted to build a small cocktail bar in the private area downstairs. Then we changed our mind because we just wanted to focus on creating the best, and so instead of that we created this work area where, as you see, our library and other resources are around us. Now this is where we store all the data of our investigations, our prototypes of plates, etc. Do you remember the days when guests did not take pictures in the dining room? O: Yes, that was even the case at elBulli where they did not allow pictures.
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Dave Beran
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Dave Beran An Evolving Dialogue in Santa Monica, California by Geeta Bansal
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Dave Beran
“[A] young chef’s first restaurant is an ego trip, so no way I was going to do a sandwich shop. Chefs have egos, you know!”
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Salty Magazine happened, I took a step back and thought about it and remembered that whenever anyone came from outside and opened in Chicago, they would fail. Jean-Georges and Wolfgang Puck both opened there and closed. David Burke did too, and part of the reason was when they came in from outside, they did nothing to support the city, so the city was not interested in them, and when my downtown lease fell through, I realized that I was no different. I was going to say, here is my flagship restaurant and everyone should just come. So, we re-evaluated why we were pursuing this project. Was it for me, for the diners, or the city? At that point, I realized that I had created this great story but had not planted a seed or let it grow or even considered the city I was going to. We went back to the drawing board and started working on a generic restaurant space for a test kitchen. It was not meant to serve diners, and we only wanted a work space. We chanced upon our present space, which was still under construction. The developer agreed to build out a test kitchen and office space for us. That conversation raised the subject of rent, and a proposal, since it’s in a food court, to do a sandwich shop during the day. But a young chef’s first restaurant is an ego trip, so no way I was going to do a sandwich shop. Chefs have egos, you know! The original concept had high-end à la carte and also a fine dining restaurant with a separate kitchen. It was the idea of a restaurant within a restaurant, and you walked through the first to get to the second. I thought that since fine dining is my passion, so what if we took this space and stripped the concept down to bare bones to discover our identity. We figured it out from the food and service perspective—let’s see how the diners react, building relationships with the city along the way. We decided to skip the crazy PR push, no opening announcements, etc. Let’s just open quietly and become a neighborhood restaurant.
Initially it was going to be a three-day test kitchen, but at the last minute I thought that if a guest was paying $250 per person and we called it a test kitchen, then the impression would be that the chef does not think it’s as good as it should be. No one goes to a pop-up or test kitchen and says it’s an amazing meal. We want to be a serious restaurant that just happens to be located where it is. So what was the process? And is the evolution ongoing? We went to five days a week and brought in a food-and-beverage program, additional cooks, and this is version one at present of the fine dining restaurant I want to create. A restaurant may be perfect on paper, but you never know what it wants to be. It’s a living, breathing thing, and if I expect diners to walk in in T-shirts and flip flops and buy the best wine on the list, am I going to fight it? Say, get out, you are not in a suit—or embrace it? So we thought, this is stripped down enough that we have to be careful about pulling out a chair for a client due to space limitation, so we need to sacrifice some elements of service. The tradeoff is: how well can we craft a guest’s experience in such a minimal space, only 760-square-foot, and still create a great experience. Since we have counter service, I interact more with the guests, and the initial thought was that I would learn about LA diners, but in reality, I am learning so much about diners in general. As a chef, you hide in the kitchen and don’t get that interaction. At Alinea or Next, we would meet diners only if they were on a kitchen tour or while drawing on the table at Alinea. From the front of the house, you hear either about the best guests or worst guests, and on the kitchen tour you only meet the cool guests anyway. Here’s the thing: no cook at a restaurant is ready to run their own restaurant. I’m not.
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Dave Beran
“Here’s the thing: no cook at a restaurant is ready to run their own restaurant. I’m not.”
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Salty Magazine LA restaurants are a glaring omission on Best-of Lists, and even the Michelin guide stepped away in 2010. With new restaurants and chefs featured on these notorious lists and many toting Michelin stars coming into town, will they focus more attention on LA? There are rumors that Michelin will head back and of the possibility of there being a separate California guide. While I was the chef at Alinea, we got three Michelin stars, which was a big deal. When we opened Next, I was in a unique situation as we were told they were not going to rate us, so though it was annoying, there was no pressure at all. Here in LA, it has been interesting because, though the guide is not there, people talk about it. I feel that there is enough potential now that it has got to bring them here. People are traveling to LA to dine as opposed to just traveling here for entertainment. The LA dining scene, in the four years I was visiting here before deciding to move here, has changed. A restaurant like Vespertine would not have been possible five years ago. A tiny place like Dialogue could not have existed five years ago, especially inside a food court. We are charging $245 per person for our 24-course tasting menu. I think the whole dynamic of the shift and its evolution as a dining scene is going to draw a lot of attention. And honestly, we have some of the best produce I have seen in the country.
Does Michelin still command more respect than other accolades, or the ever-emerging lists? There are so many lists: the Traveler, OAD, La Liste, etc. I don’t honestly know what has more weight. The challenge for Michelin, at least looking from the outside, is to justify how they rate. I have never met a Michelin inspector, but a lot of times you look at restaurants that are elevated to their level, as compared to others, and it is hard to understand. Noma, for example, had two Michelin stars, and no one knows if they ever will be three stars or even if they want to be. The same is the case of Mugaritz. The question is: are they the best restaurants in the world? I would argue that they certainly have the most influence on the global dining scene and you can draw the line from the elBulli influence. For example, from the time people started putting foam on the plate, to the Noma influence of rustic plates, and everything being very flat and on the minimal side with a puddle of sauce in the middle—that is like 2010 Noma. You can trace those lines just about everywhere with handmade plates and similar plating styles like that. So, it is fair to say that their work has more influence globally than someone getting a star. Frantzén’s chef was in recently and they just got the third star, but he said they were always busy even before that. It’s important to be in the conversation of all these rating systems even though you may have no stars, and yet be on the top of one list while not in the same position on another. Aren’t the lists very misleading these days? Especially how the rating systems work? In the 50 Best there are forty voters in each region, with six votes in their own region and four outside, so is that fair?
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RenĂŠ Frank
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Salty Magazine Is there a renewed interest in patisserie in the last few years? Yes, definitely. Around 15 years ago it wasn’t being talked about so much, but today there is much more attention paid to pastry since Albert Adrià started the revolution in restaurant pastry. You see it represented a lot more in the media and TV; for example, the pastry-themed season of Netflix’s Chef’s Table and shows such as The Great British Bakeoff, etc.
What made you decide to open a “dessert only” restaurant? Did you see the market potential for it? I felt it was finally time that desserts were given the stage for a solo performance. Pastry has finally grown up; it’s no longer just the little brother tagging along behind all the big brothers (the sweet course at the end of a tasting menu). Modern pastry is becoming a new frontier where there is unlimited space to experiment and explore
“Pastry has finally grown up; it’s no longer just the little brother tagging along behind all the big brothers.”
and apply classic techniques in new and fascinating ways. In addition to this, most of my formal training has been as a chef before I studied as a pastry chef, so being able to work with ingredients which are unconventional in pastry and rethink desserts as main courses, satisfying in their own right, has allowed me the opportunity to bring both of these worlds together. In order to continue the revolution in the dessert realm, getting people to eat them is the first step.
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René Frank You borrow ingredients and techniques from other cultures, so are your sweet creations cross-cultural? The inspiration for how we work in the kitchen comes from all over the world, and I have picked up a lot of techniques from my travels. In the Czech Republic, a charcoal grill is used for cake-baking, and we use a charcoal grill regularly in our kitchen, and the use of umami in desserts is present in a lot of different cultures. For example, in Turkey there is tavuk göğsü, a dessert from the Ottoman times made with chicken breast. Ten years ago, I spent six months working in Japan, which is how I learned about amazake, a traditional, sweet low-alcohol Japanese drink made from fermented rice that has been around since 300 or 400 AD. It’s the same fermentation technique used
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to make miso, soy sauce and sake, and we use it at CODA as a technique to create natural sweetness. Another recipe is our pork-skin popcorn snack, which is inspired by Spanish pastry chefs who render pork fat into biscuits and cakes such as ensaïmada. I have family in Mallorca and once had the opportunity to watch a pastry chef make ensaïmada at his local bakery, which helped to inspire this on our menu. How and why did the idea of serving cocktail pairings come about? Alcohol has a longstanding history in sweet courses, with dishes such as baba au rhum, tiramisu, etc. So, to have cocktail pairings is a means of deconstructing tradition. The cocktail pairings become part of the dish, and the same energy goes into developing it as a true component.
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