BQ Breakfast Live - The digital debate

DIGITAL DEBATE in association with

The Lounge, Sunderland College Thursday 5 March 2015

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DEBATING DIGITAL: THE NORTH EAST’S FUTURE IN A TECH NATION in association with

Tomorrow’s world will be digital and the North East is home to some exciting companies operating at the cutting edge of advanced digital technology

But how can we ensure, as a region, that they grow to their full potential and that the North East is at the forefront of this rapidly changing sector? Sunderland Software City organised an event to address that question and the part to be played by the new Tech North.

Tech North is a government backed body set up to drive the growth of digital start-ups across cities in the North of England, including the North East. It will be modelled on London’s Tech City, which has just produced its report Tech Nation: Powering the Digital Economy examining the growth of 21 technology clusters around the UK. Tech City UKs chief executive Gerard Grech came to Sunderland to debate with some of the key figures and rising stars in the region’s digital sector. The event, organised

by Sunderland Software City and sponsored by Tait Walker, was held over dinner at The Lounge Bistro and Bar in Sunderland College’s Hylton Campus. It was hosted by Sunderland Software

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City’s chief executive David Dunn.

THE DEBATE David Dunn began the discussion by saying: “I’m really amazed by how fast the software sector in the North East is growing.

On a daily basis I see interesting new companies that I didn’t know were here and are doing a great job but haven’t needed to tell anybody about it.’’

Gerard Grech explained that Tech City UK’s purpose was to accelerate the growth of the digital tech sector in the UK and connect as many of the clusters and cities as possible, accelerating investment, skills development and collaboration. It does that through a number of programmes.

He said: “Tech Nation is about flying the flag high for the UK and saying this is not a London phenomenon, this is not a southern phenomenon, this is national phenomenon

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TAKING PART Alastair Wilson: tax partner, Tait Walker David Dunn: chief executive, Sunderland Software City Gerard Grech: chief executive, TechCity UK Chi Onwurah: MP for Newcastle Central Prof Roy Sandbach: Newcastle University Bob Paton: Managing director, Newcastle Delivery Centre, Technology, Accenture Shaun Cutler: Managing director, Clixta Dominic Murphy: Managing director, Geek Talent Mark Thompson: Senior Development Team Lead, Bio Store Carl Jones: Managing director, Technically Compatible Tristan Watson:Programme Manager, Ignite 100 Zöe Farrington: Managing Director, Real Rider Jonny Farmer: Senior Consultant, Saggezza

happening right across the country.’’

He pointed out that in the North East more than 26,000 people are employed in this sector.

The Tech Nation report, identified specialisms emerging from certain clusters such as fintech in Edinburgh with its financial services heritage and data science; cyber security in Belfast; automotive engineering and robotics in Bristol.

David Dunn said: “The Tech Nation report has come out and it talks about connecting tech clusters, but what makes a good tech cluster?’’

Tristan Watson said: “We’ve got the foundations of a really good one already, we have some existing technology companies in the region, such as Sage, we have young people and people moving on from second careers looking to establish technology companies in the region and we have technology companies opening up offices outside of London using the North East as their base.’’

However, he pointed to problems with seeking investment, saying that none of the 15 angels who were backing Ignite 100 were from the North East and most of the region’s VCs were investing European Regional Development funds which restricted them from investing in

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some companies.

“One of the missing ingredients at the moment is the investment side of things,’’ he said. He added: “One of the things that is so important for a tech cluster and we do have in abundance in the region is the willingness to help each other out because we all have an interest in seeing the region succeed and grow.’’

Bob Paton agreed, saying that that was a unique advantage for the North East.

Tristan Watson added: “We need a really strong cluster but it does have to be one that is part of this much bigger picture. It’s important that the cluster is strong but that it’s not in competition with other clusters.’’

“VCs are in a queue for the existing start-ups in Cambridge which is problem they wouldn’t have up here,’’ said Roy Sandbach. “We badly need to develop an offer for the region which says bring that investment to us because you won’t have to queue. All it requires is a dialogue on what the region has and what they believe is needed.’’

“I find that quite depressing in feeling there has to be an offer. The offer is the talent in the region, it shouldn’t be wrapped up or packaged,’’ said Zoe Farrington.

We represent the technology sector and we should be making more use of other communication methods “But people have to be made aware of it because if they don’t know they don’t come,’’ replied Ray Sandbach.

Chi Onwurah suggested that there could be additional transaction costs in doing business in the North East – such as transport - for someone based in London. “Does anybody think we need better transport?’’

“Yes,’’ said Tristan Watson.

David Dunn said: “There are probably more people round the table who do business with London than there are with the North West, which is going to be a real challenge when we look to connecting clusters across Tech North.’’

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“It’s difficult to get businesses from Middlesbrough up to Newcastle,’’ said Alastair Wilson. “On public transport it would take them an hour and a half and there’s no wifi on the train between Middlesbrough and Darlington.’’

Bob Paton said: “We represent the technology sector and we should be making more use of other communication methods.’’

“It’s a twin strategy,’’ said Shaun Cutler. “We need to make the North East attractive enough and then the proposition strong enough and then there’s enough going on here that people say, right we want to get up there. Then you’ve got the infrastructure that comes in.’’

David Dunn pointed out that there was a majority around the table who agreed there was a lack of available finance and yet that contradicted the Tech Nation report which suggested that finance was not a problem.

Tristan Watson said he was surprised by that and that while Northstar was willing to take a risk there was still a gap and a need for sector expertise. He said: “It’s more than just money, it’s smart money, it’s about bringing expertise.’’

Gerard Grech argued that VCs being based in a region was not important and that half >>

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DEBATE of investment in London tech companies last year was US. He said he would encourage local councils to focus on angel syndicates. He agreed that smart money was what counted and the networks that were formed.

He added: “The VCs will come if the ideas and the talent are there combined with angel investment.’’

He emphasised the importance of specialisms and of playing to strengths. Every cluster told him they were great at software development and great at everything.

“I can’t really paint a great picture by saying that every city in the UK is great at everything, because the reaction will be that’s what everybody says,’’ he said. “It’s more about painting a picture and having a story that tells something compellingly to investors, people looking to come to the UK to work. If there is one country that gets tech in Europe right now, it’s the UK, that’s what comes through.’’

If you specialise in something and become excellent at it, then the skills will follow Alastair Wilson said Edinburgh was becoming known for fintech. In the North East there is a cluster of online gaming companies – including Tombola and Bede Gaming.

David Dunn said he was convinced the North East could make an international mark in the controlled delivery of data.

He added: “That’s absolutely not to the detriment of other companies in other sectors.

You talk about the tech sector, then you talk about the digital sector, then you talk about the software sector, then you talk about enterprise software, which is where the North East was getting to, now we’ve got to go even narrower.

You’ve got to go so narrow that the universities are turning out experts in this area. There are SMEs and large corporates who are experts in this area.’’

He explained that the controlled delivery of

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data helped solve the problem of sharing data.

“Everybody knows that sharing data is great and everybody knows it unleashes the value within data but once people understand the value of data they are too scared to share it, If we can come up with technology to help people to share it then that’s where the North East can thrive.’’

He said that stage one of the report was getting the information out and getting people to understand which areas have which expertise.

“The next job is the most difficult one and a microcosm of that is what is going to happen in Tech North where opportunities come to the North. Then you’ve got five or six cities or clusters and at some point somebody has got to say, we don’t want that inward investment opportunity because we can’t really help the UK succeed with that inward investment, we think Manchester should have that one because they are better at it, but next time one comes round and its around something the North East can excel at, Manchester has to step down. That’s the only way you are ever going to have a successful Tech Nation.’’

Dominic Murphy said: “If you have a commercial company that goes out and grabs every type of work, you are going to create a Frankenstein’s monster. We’ve seen that in the North East, we haven’t thought far enough ahead or specialised.’’

Roy Sandbach said: “It’s this term smart specialisation, where you are smart about what you are competitively good at. It’s not the easiest thing in the world for any regional environment to get to grips with.’’

Shaun Cutler emphasised the importance of incentives for companies to stay within the North East.

Mark Thompson said: “I can see the concern for the North East to specialise in a sector, but by saying we do specialise in that sector, then it becomes self-fulfilling and we will attract the skills to the North East. The perception very much is that it’s London, which is self-fulfilling, which means that skills go to London, so you get the start-ups there, which is why you have the VCs in London. If you specialise in something and become excellent at it, then the skills will follow.’’

Bob Paton said he had a different view,

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Reach out to the parents and showcase the job opportunities and really promote our sector and start to get people interested in technology at a very young age that what mattered was creating jobs and skills would drive the growth of the sector.

There was a lack of skilled people and 2,000 vacancies.

He said: “The more skilled people we get, the more people we get who are good at the startups, the more we’ll get going into scale-ups and the more will go into corporates and out of all that we will end up specialising in one or two things.’’

He added: “We’ve got to train our young people to have the right skills to join the sector.’’

He stressed the importance of collaboration and cited as an example the first sectorled apprentice hub, the IT Apprentice Hub launched in Sunderland Software Centre and the new UTC which will specialise in IT and health sciences, sponsored by Sunderland University.

Chi Onwurah said: “I promoted it because it is truly regional.’’

Roy Sandbach said: “This region has a population of around 2.5 million, not particularly big as a region, but it is a region

which has a connectivity within it which allows problem solving and discussion to happen across not just a single sector but at the boundaries of those sectors. I think that’s an underestimated value for engagement.’’

David Dunn pointed out that in the report only the North East and South Wales were mentioned as collectives. He added: “We do operate as a single ecosystem.’’

“Jonny, you said you were part of the team who persuaded the HQ of Saggezza, a Chicago-based company, to set up its major European operations in the North East. How did that sale go?’’

“That started with a conversation with the chief executive when we talked about the problems we were having with offshore,’’ replied Jonny Farmer. “I worked with some brilliant people who work offshore but you have the issues of time difference, communications, their infrastructure isn’t brilliant and their job market’s a nightmare.’’

He explained there was a massive turnover of staff in India. He pointed out that in the North East the cost base would be at worst 2/3

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of that of London and “a huge base of well thought of educational establishments’’.

He added: “I didn’t sell it as Sunderland, I sold it as the North East. It’s about finding the people with the right attitude and the people in the North East have the right attitude, not just in terms of technology and their skills but in terms of the people that they are, they are genuinely friendly. I think sometimes we undersell that. I gave him the whole package about the cost, the skill base, the area and communications. He said: `Okay, go and do it.’

“I’m absolutely determined that we will grow and grow in this area.’’

Ray Sandbach asked: “Did you get any support from around the region?’’

Jonny Farmer said they had had support in the shape of the Sunderland Software City and Sunderland City Council had been helpful which all made it an easier sell. He added: “But I’m still convinced I could have got them to do it without that. But it helped and it also meant we could grow faster.’’ He said it was originally planned for the office to have 12 people by the end of this year, now the target is 50 and for end of next year 250.

Gerard Grech asked: “Are you getting support from universities and colleges?’’

Jonny Farmer said: “Absolutely, we are talking to universities and colleges. We will hire on attitude. Anybody with a brain that functions can be taught to do what we need them to do, as long as they’ve got the right attitude.’’

Bob Paton agreed: “With the right attitude you can do anything.’’

Jonny Farmer said: “There’s such a pool of talent out there of kids who are locked in their bedrooms but we need to tap into it.’’

Zoe Farrington asked: “Is there an education job to be done on parents because there’s still a mindset of traditional route of GCSEs, A-Levels and then into university?

“Absolutely,’’ agreed Bob Paton. “We’ve done a great job in this country of brainwashing people into thinking that’s the only route. We should support people who take that route but for other people university isn’t the right route and there are other fantastic alternatives. That’s one of the things we should focus on in the North East.’’

Ray Sandbach raised the issues of mothers and people from deprived communities >>

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DEBATE seeing training opportunities but being discouraged from pursuing them.

Bob Paton said: “One of the things we have got to do is reach out to the parents and showcase the job opportunities and really promote our sector and start to get people interested in technology at a very young age.’’

He gave the example of Estonia where there was a coding club in every primary school.

Ray Sandbach referred to a recent report that suggested that all the fragmented business engagement where businesses went into schools had very limited effect. Also female role models in sectors such as digital didn’t have a lot off effect. “It’s the mothers who have a really dramatic role.’’

Chi Onwurah said the report’s finding was that where no good science provision in schools then the person closest, generally the mother, had a big influence. The report had been wrongly spun to blame mothers.

She described how her first employer had been an overseas company with a UK base in Maidenhead because their managing director was from Maidenhead and this created hundreds of jobs in Maidenhead. She said: “One of the things we do quite badly is to champion the North East.’’

David Dunn said: “That’s a perfect segue to Tech North which could potentially really help us. Gerard, we need to hear about Tech North, what it’s here to achieve and how it can solve Chi’s problem.’’

Gerard Grech said that the fact the report had been split by region had helped people in UKTI to better understand what there was.

The background to Tech North was the Northern Futures. As a result Tech North was announced at the beginning of November. It has three focus areas: Ecosystem development, events and connecting people. It was amazing that there were people in tech who don’t know each other between Newcastle, Liverpool and Leeds. Businesses had to be made aware of what support was available. It was also necessary to create scale Inward investment and telling the northern story. The population of Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield and Manchester combined would not make it into the top 100 global cities. Scale, critical mass and expertise were needed to tell a story. He stressed his need to have figures with

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We are seeing the emergence of new software development academies which are bridging the gap between where universities are and what companies need

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DEBATE which to sell the North to inward investors. He said: “Tech North will give you access to lots of stuff and that needs to told quite clearly.

It will take a lot of political leadership and entrepreneurship leadership.’’

Bob Paton asked: “Where’s the base for Tech North going to be? It’s not going to be in the North East, it’s going to be in the North West isn’t it?’’

Gerard Grech replied: “Since taking over Tech City UK I have moved offices three times and I’m about to move again in June. We do that because we want to be as connected as possible to the communities and we do that by going from one co-working space to another.

There is no real base.’’

Bob Paton said: “We want it to be a success but the base will be in the North West and we’d be worried that we’d be some poor North Country cousin.’’

David Dunn said: “Trust me, we’re not going to allow that to happen.’’

Gerard Grech said: “It’s all about people.’’

“We just need to have the confidence that Tech North is going to help us.’’ said Bob Paton.

“We want to be a valuable and integrated part of that.’’

Gerard Grech said: “A lot of its success will be based on the people working together.

You will have much greater success when you have scale. The challenge we have is that it’s seven cities. We want to make sure it will be as inclusive as possible. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy, there will be growing pains.’’

Bob Paton said: “We will be the noisy neighbours.’’

Gerard Grech replied: “When Tech City initially started it went through a lot of growing pains.

We’ve learnt a lot from Tech City.’’

Returning to his explanation of Tech North, he said a third element was skills development.

“What can we do to educate universities and colleges as to what has worked in other places, sharing best practices, being able to tap into our network back in London?’’

Bob Paton emphasised the importance of valuable business engagement.

Gerard Grech explained that they looked at skills development on four levels: 5-18. Coding in schools was important to ensure school leavers had a stronger grounding in technology.

Then colleges UTCs and universities needed to step up. Tech City has put an online academy together to speed things up Immigration. “We can focus on code clubs and stuff but that’s not going to solve the problem right now.’’ He said Tech City was working with the Home Office to put new roles on the shortage occupation list – product manager; cyber security expert; senior developer. “So companies can hire people they need right now.’’

“We are seeing the emergence of new software development academies which are bridging the gap between where universities are and what companies need.’’ He Cited General Assembly – 95% of the people who take their 12-week course find a job within three months, although the courses cost £3,000/£4,000 plus. He tried to bring them up to Manchester last year but they said there wasn’t enough demand. But, if they could be convinced there were enough people working in the sector and they came up, people in the North wouldn’t have to travel so far.

Chi Onwurah suggested there could already be provision in the North - such as Lifelong Learning or the Workers’ Educational Association - which could be used and which didn’t cost £3,000 to £4,000 and already had connections,. “We have a long history of training and retraining so why are you not looking at what’s in the North?’’

Gerard Grech replied: “The curriculum is the latest and greatest skills in this space, teaching stuff that is extremely cutting edge which is what we find a lot of high growth businesses are looking for. Things are moving so quickly and needs are so immediate.’’

Alastair Wilson raised the subject of inward investment, pointing out that Northern Ireland’s corporation tax rate is likely to be a lot lower than the rest of the UK’s, so is Scotland’s and Scotland will get lots of new powers. The North East is on the Border. “As a business adviser, I would struggle to find reasons to set up a business in the North East of England if I looked at it on an objective basis and compared it to Northern Ireland and Scotland and potentially Wales. Do we need to do something in the North East to address the fact that we may not be competitive in the future?’’

Chi Onwurah said: “That is a really good >>

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question. It has been said no part of England should be disadvantaged by the new powers.

We have got to make sure that we aren’t losing out.’’ She argued that the boundary with Scotland could be an advantage.

Alastair Wilson said: “We need to start asking ourselves: what do we need as a region to be able to compete?’’ He said a lot of large accountancy firms were moving activity across to Belfast in anticipation of the new corporation tax rates.

Bob Paton said: “In a technology business there are two main costs: costs of buildings and cost of staff. Buildings in the North East are considerably cheaper than in London and the South East and Greater Manchester and Scotland. Cost of staff – much as we’d like to be on the salaries of London and the South East, we aren’t – isn’t something we should be embarrassed about, it’s something we should embrace. If we get the people with the right skills, they [inward investors] will come here. Skills will underpin the growth of this technology industry.’’

David Dunn asked: “What do the start-ups and potential scale-ups want from Tech North?’’

Shaun Cutler explained that practicalities were important for a new business. He had to keep lots of plates spinning and one of central ones was the cost of setting up a business and keeping it in the North East. “Apart from that connectivity is the most important for me.’’ However, he said there was more connectivity, support and structure in tech than in manufacturing.

Gerard Grech said many other countries want to replicate what Tech City was doing in terms

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of connectivity. He added: “I want to make sure that growth initiatives are not bundled together and that money in the LEPs is dedicated towards a digital tech strategy.’’ He explained that there was a danger that larger companies that were growing at much lower rate could be bundled in with digital technologies. “We want to make sure there’s a distinctive difference between established industries that are growing at 0.1% getting the money that they need to continue growing at that rate, versus digital growing at 5% a year.’’

Zoe Farrington said: “I would take the connectivity one step further and give it more of a sense of purpose with more mentoring, whether that comes from peer-to-peer or second generation. When does advice become advice that you are expected to give something away for or pay for? As start-ups we don’t all have the luxury of being able to afford nonexecutive directors but that doesn’t mean we wouldn’t need or value that kind of expertise in a structured way that would assist us.’’

Dominic Murphy said he wanted to get his business known globally. He added: “Do we have a thing in the North East of just thinking locally? People don’t think big enough. Tech North? Do I want to connect with Manchester?

Not unless there are clients there. Do I want to connect with other tech companies there? Not really. Get me in front of lots of potential clients without me having to go south.’’ Referring to business angels, he said there were plenty of people around with cash and that creating a syndicate of angels would be really helpful.

Zoe Farrington said: “As much as I’ve said I’d like a more mentoring type approach, I’d

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also like business angels to recognise when their money is welcome but their expertise is perhaps not necessary.’’

Dominic Murphy said: “I’m not asking for millions of dollars, I’m not asking for half a million. What I’m asking for is some mentoring, connecting me with the right people, with clients. I want sales and customers and investment to help me get there.’’

“You said you aren’t asking for millions – why not?’’ asked Zoe Farrington. “That’s what we are also guilty of in this region. I was told in the middle of a double dip recession I was living in a fantasy world if I thought I was going to raise £285,000 in this region. I did.’’

Gerard Grech said: “I would always encourage the recognition of local stars to be celebrated in the local media. It’s important that people do see role models. You need self-belief, you need conviction and you need people to come together to make it happen. It doesn’t start with political leadership, it starts with local entrepreneurial leadership.’’

David Dunn said: “Gerard, people will come knocking on your door because they want you to point them in the direction of new technology. You’ve just got to make sure that you and the rest of the Tech City UK team know what’s going on in this area ,what companies we’ve got and make them aware of who their potential customers are’’ “Carl, what can Tech North do for you?’’

Carl Jones replied: “I want to be in front of the world’s audience and to some degree we are already getting there but you can never get enough exposure so I’d like anything that can be done to promote that. There are two things

DEBATE which are most important to business, one of which is cash. The other important thing is people, it’s who you have in your business. The biggest challenge in my business is recruitment and the attraction of talent. People have said there’s a huge talent pool in the North East, well I have to say at times, I wonder, where the hell is it? I’m wondering if there is something that can be done to help people understand where they might, first of all, prosper, but secondly, and perhaps most important, enjoy their working life more. Is it at a big corporate?

Or they may get a lot more out of going to a start-up. I’m not sure people have a proper understanding that they would be better suited to working in a start-up.’’ He described how he had struggled to attract a developer to join a start-up and to come to Sunderland. He managed to recruit a first rate, highly qualified individual for less money than he was offered elsewhere. “The sole reason he came was because he was excited by the dream of being in a start-up.’’

Gerard Grech said: “He would not have joined you had it not been for you making all that effort to attract him.’’

“How many other people like that just didn’t even want to apply or come to the interview?’’ asked Carl Jones.

Gerard Grech said: “Tech North is trying to create places where people come together and have the self-belief that will attract even more people. There’s a herd mentality. People will say it looks like a fantastic place to go because everyone else is saying it’s a great place to go.

People feel great with people who feel great.

Clearly your passion came across and attracted him to join you on your journey.’’

Zoe Farrington said: “Everybody wants to be a start-up. My concern as a growing technical development business is finding anybody who wants to work for you anymore because they all want to work for themselves.’

Tristan Watson agreed it was difficult to attract someone to come to work for a startup. He said there was not enough visibility for tech companies.

Ray Sandbach said: “You can be entrepreneurial and work for a corporate.’’ He cited recent analysis which revealed the North East was relatively weak in terms of innovation jobs because it had very few businesses which

I would always encourage the recognition of local stars to be celebrated in the local media had grown. A second issue was a lack of significant corporate innovation. “We index about 30% compared with the North West, so we have got a massive issue in the area of corporate innovation job types and it’s that which will in the end make a huge difference.

We only have three significant corporate players in this region who do research and development work here: Sage, Procter and Gamble and Akzo Nobel.’’

Gerard Grech asked: “If you had a pot of money and you had to make some tough decisions where would it be?’’

Ray Sandbach replied: “There are four critical

sector areas: subsea; life sciences with a particular focus on gene therapy; automotive engineering, with a particular focus on electric vehicles; and digital.’’

Chi Onwurah said the region had a large number of public sector jobs and, whatever the next government was, there would be a transformation of the public sector into a digital public sector, which could present a huge market opportunity for the North East.

Bob Paton asked: “What does success look like? My view is that it’s when we create thousands of highly skilled jobs.’’

Dominic Murphy said: “I completely agree and I think that’s going to come from retraining.’’ Alastair Wilson concluded the debate and summed up, saying: “It’s been a very interesting debate and it’s been great to hear all the topics. One of the really interesting areas has been around the skills agenda. It’s been illuminating to hear what everybody has been trying to do to drive forward the agenda.

It would be really powerful for the North East if we could embrace Tech Nation. It’s really up to us to make sure we drive forward the opportunities.’’ n

Skills investment is key The debate hosted by Sunderland Software City gave a range of businesses and advisers involved in the digital economy a platform to discuss the findings of the recent TechNation report with local politicians and national policymakers. The involvement of Sunderland Software City in TechCity UK should be seen as true recognition of the importance of the North East’s software sector, both at a regional level and also at a national level. There were some key themes which came out of the discussions. For example, there is a question to be addressed whether the North East’s software sector will benefit from specialising in subsectors of software development. Being a world leader in a particular field, be that accountancy and business software and/or computer gaming may make it easier to build businesses around a regional hub which needs little marketing or promotion as its reputation does the work. In addition, at a time when the North East lags behind other regions of the UK in terms of businesses start-ups, easy access to finance was a clear priority for the participants. The UK has implemented a range of incentives which market the UK as a fantastic location to establish and grow a business, now the North East needs to ensure that investors know the breadth and depth of businesses who exist in the region and for whom additional funding would accelerate success. Finally, the debate focussed heavily on the skills the region needed to be part of a truly Great Britain when it came to software development. The inclusion of companies such as RealSafe Technologies, the developer behind the RealRider app, within “The Business is GREAT Britain” campaign highlights the capabilities of companies we have in our region. It was acknowledged by all those at the debate that without investment in focussed skills, training and education for young people then we would not be able to ensure we had further successes like the RealRider app to boast about in future years.

Alastair Wilson, Tax Partner, Tait Walker

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It’s been illuminating to hear what everybody has been trying to do to drive forward the agenda. It would be really powerful for the North East if we could embrace Tech Nation. It’s really up to us to make sure we drive forward the opportunities ALASTAIR WILSON - TAX PARTNER, TAIT WALKER