Stuart Camp & Gaby Cawthorne Grumpy Old Management

‘I WAKE UP EVERY DAY AND I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. LIFE IS NEVER DULL.’

Stuart Camp is the manager who has masterminded Ed Sheeran’s journey from open mic nights to record-breaking stadium tours, via more than 50 million album sales. That will soon be 50 million-plus-quite-a-lot, with = due on October 29. Here Camp tells MBUK about their journey, their relationship and how, over 10 years, everything has changed, except the important stuff…

By a quirk of scheduling, MBUK ends up talking to Stuart Camp on the tenth anniversary of the release of Ed Sheeran’s debut album, +, on September 9, 2011.

Asked what he was doing a decade to the day ago, Camp doesn’t hesitate. “I’d have been with Ed in HMV buying as many copies as we could.”

On September 9, 2021, he is again with Ed, only this time in Tampa, ahead of his client playing at the NFL’s Kickoff show, ahead of the opening game of the season.

Things have changed – but not everything. Because back in HMV, Camp and Sheeran weren’t simply trying to boost their chart chances, they were sharing and enjoying what they knew was a special moment, and a feeling that still resonates.

“There was a real sense of excitement about going to buy your own record, our record. I’d never experienced that before, or seen anyone else buying our record. It really was, and still is, quite something when you see it in the flesh, out in the wild,” Camp recalls. “And to be fair, that hasn’t really diminished. It will be the same for =. 10 years ago, bloody hell.” + would go on to top the charts in the UK, reach No. 5 in the US, shift around four million units and prove to be just the start of a career that has seen Sheeran become one of the most successful artists of all time, whether measured by record sales or live revenues.

His second and third albums, x (2014) and ÷ (2017) went to No. 1 on the UK and US album charts, selling around 18 million and 21 million units respectively. His 255-date ÷ tour is the highest grossing of all time, bringing in revenues of $776m.

Ed Sheeran

Camp has been there every step of the way, from the wholly unremarkable pub next door to the Rocket offices where the pair first sealed their deal and plotted world domination, to, well, to the wholly unremarkable pub next door to the Rocket office where, last year, they celebrated their own 10th anniversary. (Although this time the venue was chosen for nostalgia rather than convenience, Camp having ended his JV with Sir Elton John’s company in 2018 to go solo via his Grumpy Old Management company.)

On October 29, Sheeran will release =, his fifth album (including 2019’s No. 6 Collaborations Project, another record that topped the charts on both sides of the Atlantic).

Camp looks ahead to the launch and talks about what success looks like these days, the expansion of the Grumpy empire, Atlantic, Adele, never selling the catalogue, album number six, a tour that will last until 2025, and what he’s learned 10 years on from pushing a trolley round HMV...

How has your role and relationship with Ed changed in the past decade?

It hasn’t really, to be honest with you. The machine has got a lot bigger and there are more things to deal with, but our relationship hasn’t changed; it’s probably even stronger than it was back then.

My role is still to do everything. There’s just a little bit more of everything.

I guess back then there was more hustle though, right? Trying to get people to listen, trying to get the record played..

Yeah, but we still treat what we do the same way, we never take anything for granted.

On the eve of Bad Habits coming out, we were really nervous. We genuinely didn’t expect to be No. 1 for what is probably about to be 11 weeks [it was, and was then replaced at the top by Sheeran’s next single, Shivers]. Hand on heart, we’d have been happy with two or three.

We never, ever take anything for granted, we always do as much as we can, we always do the work. And how would you say you have changed

in those 10 years?

I don’t think I have, particularly. I think perhaps I’ve learned to trust my instincts and my gut a lot more.

Before, there were a few instances where decisions were swayed, or I was pressured to do something, and I had a bad feeling. Either I didn’t really like someone, or something didn’t feel right, and I’ve been proven correct. That’s happened on two or three occasions. So, yeah, I’m happy to go more on instinct as a whole.

What about the relationship with Warner and Atlantic Records in the UK – how has that changed?

There has been some turnover of senior staff, but [UK Co-President] Ed Howard’s been there since day one, as has [WMG’s CEO of Recorded Music] Max [Lousada], so there’s always been that close relationship; it’s always been very frank and honest.

There’s a bit more that we do ourselves, and we’re certainly a bit more… not headstrong, but clearer about what we want in terms of creatives and videos and how we present ourselves; a lot of that comes from [Sheeran and Camp] now.

But the relationship is still very strong, it’s still very collaborative and very open. We’re all honest with each other. I mean, I’ve known Max 25 years. There’s nothing we can’t say to each other – and we often don’t [laughs]!

It’s like any marriage or long-term relationship: if you can be honest with each other and still make it work, then you’re onto a winner. It’s when you’re stalking around, being miserable and not saying how you feel, then there’s a problem.

In terms of the deal, this is album five in a six-album deal, right?

It will be, yes. We’re in discussions with them about moving forward.

So, how nervous are they? Or maybe how nervous should they be?

[Laughs] No, listen, it’s been a long relationship and we’d love to extend it.

How fit for purpose is a record deal signed 11 or so years ago, because it was signed sort of on the cusp of the switchover between sales and streams, physical and digital, wasn’t it?

Yes, and very much everything was a 360 deal back then. There have been a couple of points along the last 10 years where we’ve gone back and renegotiated our terms. Warner were open and honest enough to realise that we’d outgrown that deal, and so it’s been adjusted. There’s been a few major tweaks and, like any negotiation, as long as everyone feels vaguely happy walking out of the room, then we’re good, and we’ve always had that.

“Our relationship You mentioned Ed [Howard] hasn’t changed, it’s now being Co-President with Briony [Turner] at Atlantic probably even stronger Records UK. Can you talk about how the label has changed under that it was.” their stewardship, and what their strengths are as leaders? I think it’s a fresh injection, and they make a good team. We know Briony really well, and Ed’s been our man since day one. The team feels a lot more cohesive than it has done for a while, everyone’s on the same page. There have never been any disagreements or differences of opinion, everyone’s very focused on what we want to do, we know how to get there and we just want to work together to get it done.

Moving on to publishing, I wonder what your thoughts are on very big name writers selling their catalogues, whether or not you’ve been approached and if it’s something you would ever consider?

Well, I’m not a songwriter, so I can’t really comment, but I know Ed thinks it’s strange [as a concept] that there’s something he creates, puts everything into, something very personal, and then he gives it away

Griff

to someone else. Well, not ‘gives it away’, you’re getting paid, obviously, but you hand over ownership.

With us, we’re in a situation where we are successful enough in other areas of our life that we don’t need to do that. We have been approached, but it’s something he’ll never do and he’s in that lucky position where it’s not something he has to consider.

But, it’s an interesting model and fair play to Merck [Mercuriadis, founder of Hipgnosis Songs Fund] and everyone else; it’s been very aggressive and they appear to be getting all these big names to do it, pleasing their shareholders along the way. So, yeah, it’s quite fascinating, and you wonder how it all ends up.

I wonder just what sort of eye-watering numbers have been put in front of you…

To be fair to everyone that has approached us, no one’s actually mentioned a number yet, because I’ve always shut it down. I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t care what the number is and I don’t want to know.

It was also 10 years ago that Adele really broke through, with 21. Like Ed, she’s a British solo artist who absolutely smashed the US, and they seem to share a quite similar attitude to fame and success Has there ever been a sort of friendly rivalry, or perhaps a sense of kinship, between the two camps, or between you and Jonathan [Dickins, Adele’s manager]?

There’s no rivalry, but – and I’d love to imagine they have the same conversation about us ¬– we’re always, like ‘When’s Adele’s record coming?’

We always considered it a moral No. 1 if we were No. 2 to Adele, because… because she’s Adele!

It’s a bit like when Maisie [Peters, another Grumpy Old Management client, with her debut album, You Signed Up For This] was No. 2 to Kanye [with Donda] the other week; it’s Kanye, come on, we’re effectively No. 1!

So, yeah, we’re always very curious about when her records are dropping and what she’s doing next, because they’re such big events. And this time round I presume she’ll be out pretty soon after us.

Grumpy Old Management client, Dylan

How long has the new record been planned, and what does that planning process look like these days in terms of who does what?

Well there’s a song on there that he wrote the week after ÷ came out, so quite a while! The recording started in earnest, just going into the spring of lockdown, that’s when we went into Decoy in full hazmat suits. But in total it’s been three to four years in the making.

There have been a lot of songs going backwards and forwards. In my office at home I’ve got all the various track listings, and from the first one to the final one, and there are only two songs that are still there. It’s been constantly evolving.

It frustrates Ed a little bit, because he thinks it takes a little too long, but at the end of the day he always admits that we do get to the best record we could have.

Does anyone A&R Ed these days, or is he at a level where he’s left to it?

It’s sort of a triumvirate: Ed Howard, myself and Ed. He does do a lot himself, and he does tend to go off and record half an album before the label know anything about it, but then we all get involved.

He already knows what the next album is [after =] for instance. He’s already got a track-listing for it, and I will get that changed over the next 12 months [laughs].

Ed writes so many songs, and he wants to get them out, he doesn’t want them just sitting on his hard drive.

Given that, how difficult will it be to stop him putting out an album next year, in the middle of the tour for this one?

Well, this tour is going to span three-tofour years, and there will be another record

within that cycle; that was always the plan. It’s more a question of stopping him putting another record out the week after this one. The material’s there and it won’t be another four year wait, I can promise you that.

Do you both still believe in the album as the most important statement an artist can make?

I definitely do. I think that’s maybe my age, and maybe it’s outdated, but it’s definitely something we always want to hang a tour and a promotional period around.

Having said that, certainly next year we’ll be releasing a fair few songs that won’t be necessarily attached to this album or the next one.

The industry changes, of course, and it’s now more about tracks for a lot of people. For us, as a general framing device, the album is still very valid. It’s still the album chart we want to look at. I never look at the single midweeks. I’m still obsessed with albums, they’re the tent poles of a career.

What can you tell us about the sound and style of the new album, co-writers, collabs etc?

There are no collabs on this record. There may be on future single versions, like we did with the previous album, but not on the album itself. Johnny [McDaid] and Fred are the main co-producers and co-writers; there are a couple of Steve Mac tracks on there, David Hodges is on a couple. There’s a relatively small writing pool this time.

Sound-wise, it’s an interesting one actually, it’s a lot more up tempo. This record was originally meant to be Subtract (-) rather than Equals (=).

Ed had written a lot of downbeat acoustic ballads – which he’s quite good at! – but then back in spring/early summer last year, when it was all getting very bleak, it was like, ‘Do I want to release a depressing record in this climate?’

So it became slightly more celebratory. He’d become a father, so it was also a lot more sort of forward-thinking and uplifting than previously, and transformed from Subtract to Equals. People have been sat alone in a dark room for most of last year, they don’t necessarily want someone to compound that.

What does success look like for an Ed Sheeran album these days, and what metrics do you use to measure that success?

Well, we always fantasise we’ll hit numbers like Divide’s, but I don’t necessarily think the market’s there in the same way as it was. So we don’t have a figure in our heads at all.

We want to be in a position where the volume and the acceptance of the record is outweighing a lot of other people’s, and the success of the single is a good sign for that.

Also, we’re going to be announcing a tour in a few weeks, and that will be perhaps a more interesting barometer for us. it, but… [laughs]. I’d love it to get some good reviews, you want people to like it. But we won’t pore over every word of every review, no.

What are the live plans?

On the 17th (September) we’re going to be announcing a big old stadium tour across the UK and Europe. That will take us through to October next year. Then we’ll probably do Australia in early 2023, then North America, then Asia and South America. I think we’ll end up finishing in 2025.

Do you guys still feel the pressure before an album release? Are there nerves even though most people on the outside would quite blithely say success is guaranteed?

There’s always a mix of nerves and excitement, there has to be – we want to see what people make of it.

And like I said about the single, we don’t take anything for granted at all. I think it would be horrible to be complacent. We’re giving birth to a new baby, so of course we want people to like it, and for there not to be any hiccups.

Where do reviews and critical reaction fit in the Ed Sheeran camp’s psychological landscape these days? Do they matter, or do you exist above them?

We kind of live above… [interrupts himself] Well, we want to say we live above

And is live the most important part of what you guys do these days, not just commercially, but in terms of where you look to set new benchmarks?

Yeah, it is, and that goes back to how you define the success of a record; I think you have to define success across the entire cycle and live is a huge part of that.

“It’s almost like we Obviously, last time out, we set ourselves an incredibly high make the record so we benchmark, one that ourselves or anyone else may or may not be able can go out and play it to beat, who knows. It’s certainly the focus, it’s almost to the world.” like we make the record so we can go and play it to the world.

Did you have any live plans that were scuppered by the pandemic, or were you always going to stay off the road until after this record?

No, we were very lucky. Ed and I celebrated the 10 year anniversary of signing our contract, literally the week before lockdown. We went out and got very, very drunk, and he told me that he wanted to put his live plans back a year because he needed more time off. Eventually he confessed that he was actually going to have a baby, and that’s why he was putting everything back a year. It all worked in our favour; we didn’t have to cancel any plans, thank goodness, because it was horrific for people that did, or people that were already on the road. If it had happened a year earlier, in 2019, it would have been catastrophic for us. We were very fortunate.

Was that a good night, celebrating the 10th anniversary of your first contract?

It was. There’s a pub near the old Rocket office where we used to go when we first met, and where we decided I’d manage him, so we just went there and drank far too much Guinness.

But our lives have obviously changed a little bit, because we then went to the pub that we own together [Bertie Blossoms in Notting Hill]. It was a fun day out.

Why did you hire Gaby [Cawthorne] and what has her appointment meant for you and for Grumpy Old Management?

Well, Gaby’s been with us since day one as well, as our international rep [at Warner]. She’s extremely tenacious, and laserfocused on the business side in terms of the marketing and the international set-up and DSP relationships.

I was still resolutely by myself, ‘I don’t need anybody’, etc. But I think there was a turning point where someone looked at my Fitbit stats and I’d averaged 27 minutes sleep per night for the past three weeks. It was like, this has got to stop.

Gaby became available and we just decided to take the plunge. It’s been amazing, she is second to none in terms of analysing markets, and having that level of strategic mind is great for us.

It’s a move that’s enabled Grumpy Old Management to take on more than one client, has that panned out as you planned, and how involved do you get with those other artists?

Yeah, I try to as much as possible. I personally always believed I was going to be a one-artist manager, just because I didn’t think I’d be able to dedicate the time.

But then there was the pandemic, obviously Ed’s plans had been shelved for a while, and we just thought we should do something else.

We got introduced to Deleon [Blake], who manages Griff, and they were looking to partner up. I was really impressed with him, so we did a deal to bring his company into ours as a joint venture.

And then Maisie [Peters] is a fantastic artist, Ed had been keen on her for a while, and he’d originally wanted her on Gingerbread [Records, Sheeran’s own label] when she first signed to Atlantic.

Bobby [Havens], her manager, had previously worked with me at Rocket, he’d gone to another independent company, but his deal was coming to an end, so he then became an employee with us, which brought Maisie in, and then a record deal just made sense after that [Peters signed to Sheeran’s Gingerbread Records in the summer].

We’ve also signed a guy called Ewan Mainwood and a girl called Dylan, so it’s a strong little set-up that’s happened quite organically.

What’s your proudest achievement in your time managing Ed?

Breaking the touring record [Sheeran’s ÷ tour was the highest-grossing of all time, beating the record held by U2 since 2011], because I was always a massive U2 fan growing up, and I thought nothing was ever going to touch that.

To beat them, that’s the thing that really will stand the test of time. And it’s always been Ed’s strong point, even before we got a deal: fuck the record, just come and see him and tell me that you don’t think he’s amazing. For that to be verified at such a high level is great.

What’s been your toughest moment over the last 10 years or so?

There’s not been any one particularly tough time, but I think it’s always tough balancing life and work, and I don’t really do that particularly well.

Is there a biggest remaining ambition for you two to tick off?

It’s always whatever the next thing we can do to tick off, whether that’s playing on the fucking moon or playing the biggest show ever. Ed always strives to be the first to do things. So, it’s not something that I can tell you now, but there will be something, because he wants to be first, he wants to break records. He wants to beat his own touring record for a start.

What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned in this business during your career so far?

Follow your heart, genuinely. If you feel something’s right, then go for it. If it doesn’t feel right, don’t. I live by that and it’s worked out okay.

What’s the best thing about managing Ed Sheeran?

[Pause] I should know this one shouldn’t I?! [laughs]. Honestly, it’s “Someone looked at my the best job in the world. I wake up Fitbit and I’d averaged every day and I don’t know what’s going to happen. Life is never dull. 27 minutes sleep per What’s the worst/most frustrating night for three weeks.” thing about managing Ed Sheeran? Ed Sheeran [laughs].

And having started by looking back 10 years, can you end by projecting forward 10 years?

I think I can, yeah. And I think we will be in Phase 2, because whatever happens our arrangements will have changed recordings-wise. The mathematics period will have come to an end, with symbols [for each album], that’s for sure, because otherwise we’ll start getting into Pi and other things that we don’t understand. He’ll be in his mid-thirties, which is dreadful, because I was in my midthirties when I met him, that’s how terrible that is. The focus will probably be more on records, because he’ll have a young family by then. So there might be a more glacial attitude to his career, but he will still be going strong, no doubt about that. n

‘He isn’t grumpy at all!’

When Gaby Cawthorne decided the time was right to leave Warner Music a few years ago, Stuart Camp knew she was too valuable an asset to lose. So he asked her to join his Grumpy Old Management, not only to retain her input into to Ed Sheeran’s career, but also to expand his company’s roster from one global superstar to one global superstar plus, maybe, a handful in waiting…

As VP of International at Warner Music UK, Gaby Cawthorne played an un-showy but absolutely vital role in helping make Ed Sheeran a truly global superstar [one of her first jobs: explaining that The A Team was a very sad story about a drug addict, and nothing to do with a TV show about a team of flamboyant mercenaries].

Her hard work and smart moves won her the respect of Sheeran and his manager, Stuart Camp, whilst a crazy shared schedule helped forge more personal bonds.

So, when, in 2018, Cawthorne began thinking of moving on, Camp made sure she didn’t move far. He brought her in as General Manager at his Grumpy Old Management, with the remit of not just continuing to work with Sheeran, but also expanding Grumpy’s remit and roster – something she has subsequently done to the tune of three additional managers and four new clients.

What do you remember of first meeting Ed and Stuart?

I became aware of Ed pretty much on top of him signing. I saw he was joining the roster, put my hand up for it and got stuck in very quickly. He was also identified as a priority by Max [Lousada], and I was tasked with getting the world interested.

I remember Ed back then as superambitious, but also super-curious. He was really keen to understand what was needed, why it was needed, how to be most effective – he was interested in everything.

He was actually a brilliant collaborator for us as a label. If you asked him to jump between seven different countries in a week, he just said yes.

With Stuart, his own label experience was still pretty fresh, so he understood all of the asks, and he understood the context of what we were trying to achieve.

He always sees the merit in having good people around him, and he understands that if they’re great at what they do, then allow them to have their voice and to execute.

He’s very generous and gracious about never trying to take credit for anyone else’s work, and empowering people he knows are good at what they do.

He also knows that’s actually only going to best serve him and Ed in the long run anyway.

Did the scale of success, particularly international success, surprise you?

It was an interesting one, because Ed wasn’t conforming to the standard of the global superstar, sonically or visually, and it did take a minute or two for people to just pause and identify what was happening. It was almost a case of harnessing the fans to lead the way in that sense.

Because there would often be comparisons to people like Damien Rice, or other brilliant singer/ songwriters, but that didn’t necessarily feel true to this very young guy with a guitar who had all these screaming teen girls at his gigs.

Grumpy Old Management now works with artists such as Maisie Peters

He would say to me, ‘Dude, I’ve got all of these One Direction fans, this is my fan base.’ It was very much a pop audience that was engaging with him.

Why do you think you guys bonded to such a level?

Well, they [Sheeran and Camp] might beg to differ, but I don’t think we’re actually very different personalities. We’re all quite straight-talking with each other, and we’re all ambitious, but in a deeply passionate way; we fight for a common cause.

And we’ll put all of our hours into it. Because as much as I might have tasked Ed with doing ludicrous things around the world, I was on the plane with him, at the airport at 4:30am, and working through until 2:00am.

I was in the thick of it, not just sending someone a schedule and telling them to get on with it.

When and why did the idea of making the move onto the management team come up?

I was already thinking of moving on because, in my mind, I’d done as much as I could possibly do within my position; I was at least 10 years into it.

I was very fortunate to work across an incredible array of artists [at Warner], but I think when you do anything for such a period of time, in what is quite a silent position in any major corporation, there’s only so many times that you feel that you can do something new. So I was looking for something where I could still utilise my experience, but also broaden out my own skill set, to still feel like I was learning new stuff. I’m inquisitive, I like to feel like I’m able to chase and create new opportunities.

And because Stu, Ed and I work so closely together, they read me very easily. They know me, sadly (!), better than most. So, I could never be dishonest with them about my plans or what I was thinking.

And it correlated with a time where Stu was looking to potentially build something of his own in terms of management.

At the same time, because of the way Ed and I work together, I think he was keen for me to still have a voice in his career moving forward.

So it was a pretty easy and transparent conversation. I think the label also saw the merit in it, in so much as they weren’t losing me completely; I’d still be a guiding hand.

What were the details of the role you discussed with Stuart at that time?

Well I was always going to hold that international element, to some degree. My knowledge of Ed goes back to the beginning, so that level of experience and insight, not just on him but on how his audience moves and markets have evolved, it’d be foolish for me to just stop doing that.

Plus, of course, I can call pretty much any territory up, because there are so many long-standing relationships within the label.

And was part of the role to help expand the client roster whilst allowing Stu to continue to focus almost completely on Ed?

The bottom line is that he is Ed’s manager; that is his first and foremost role and will remain so forever.

It was only really as time went on and we started to kind of get a rhythm flowing, and seeing what opportunities would arise.

It stemmed a little bit, for me, from the fact that I’ve always enjoyed developing artists. As much as I love to help and to contribute to Ed getting his big wins, there’s still so much enjoyment to be had from helping development artists get those very first wins.

Ultimately, and this is a conversation Stu and I had, we do have a quite unique combination of experience and knowledge under our belts. And as much as Ed will always be first and foremost, especially for Stu, why would we not try and help other artists and managers, and pass on some of that knowledge and experience? Very few artists get to this scale and very few managers get to go through what Stuart’s been through; why keep that to ourselves? It’s an opportunity to really start developing managers as well as artists.

And how Ed’s schedule was evolving, finishing a tour and taking a bit of time out, there was some time for us, especially me, to seek out other opportunities to bring into Grumpy, and from last year we’ve been very proactive about it.

Can you talk a little bit about what’s happened in terms of other artist clients and managers at Grumpy?

In terms of the structure, obviously Stuart owns the company, and Stuart is primarily Ed Sheeran’s manager, and he can’t have time taken away from that.

So, a lot of the new areas of the business, whilst Stuart is always there for all of us, they kind of fall under me.

I oversee what we’re trying to develop on the new management side. And, with that, in the last year, we’ve started working with Bobby Havens, who manages Maisie Peters; Deleon Blake, who works with Griff; and Andy Wells who has Dylan and Ewan Mainwood.

There’s still scope for [more]; we’re in all kind of conversations about other acts. But they’re the ones who are formally part of our roster right now.

They all approached us with what they are looking for, from various backgrounds, and I think they understood that what Stuart and I as a package could bring, especially in a day and age where, let’s be honest, the expectation is for artists is to have so much development under their belt before they can get a deal.

So they were looking for not just the knowledge and experience, but the network and an infrastructure to help get artists into a place from where they can start escalating their careers.

At the same time, all of the managers that are now part of Grumpy, they are their artists’ managers. I will never introduce myself as those artists’ manager

and Stuart would never introduce himself as those artists’ manager. Their manager is their manager, but they have bought into the team and the infrastructure. There’s no threat to anyone’s position, there is just a common cause.

I’m actually very proud of the fact we’ve done a great job instilling a team mentality. And every manager is, from what I understand, super proud to be part of something where their artists have massively excelled in the time that they have been with us.

You mentioned some ongoing conversations, is there a ceiling on the size of management company Grumpy might become?

We’re always going to be relatively boutique, in the sense that I, especially, don’t want us to be in a place where we can’t be proactively involved in every artist that is on the roster. We want every artist to have a completely bespoke strategy and for them to buy into that, and for us to execute that, we have to have a voice in that conversation consistently.

So, we’ll maybe take on one or two, because I do like to be very proactive. I don’t want to be sent a report once a week and give a top line opinion. I want to be accountable

With Griff, for example, when we first met last summer, one of the key things we discussed with her and Deleon was what our strategy would be over three years. And for this last year we’ve actually already stuck pretty closely to what that timeframe was.

If we are going to proclaim to an artist and a manager, this is how we see the long game for you, this is the big picture, this is we want to build around you on a global level, then, yeah, I’m going to be accountable for that.

Is there a type of artist that you look to sign, not in terms of genre, but in terms of where they are in their career and development?

Absolutely. We could probably take on an established act, but in terms of really propelling an artist forward, I think if we can try and really build a solid foundation for them in these first few years, a lot of what will happen further down the line should be somewhat steered by the success that we’ve initially generated.

I worry sometimes, with [the prospect of managing] some established acts, that you have to undo some of the work that has been done in the past, which can be more challenging than starting from scratch.

Also, when you’re working with someone brand new, who’s got a huge appetite to achieve, with a sometimes ludicrous level of ambition, that drive

is pretty special. Arguably it’s the most important part… obviously talent is hugely important, but that drive is, I would say, just as important, and that often comes with brand new acts.

It’s the same with managers. The managers that we work with aren’t new to the game, but they are developing their skill sets, and one of the reasons that they wanted to join Grumpy is because then we could help arm them and help them to develop global careers.

We’re certainly not siloed in our thinking in terms of genre, but in terms of ambition we want to work with artists where we see real commercial appeal, across the recorded side and on the touring side.

What have you found to be the biggest differences in terms of your working pattern at Grumpy versus your time at Warner?

It’s interesting, because I thought it was going to be really quite vastly different. But then, and I guess this goes back to you reminding me of the early days of Ed, I was never very good at being linear in my approach to the job. I always had opinions across the board – A&R would hear my opinion on single choices, Marketing would hear my opinion on timelines and assets. So, in many ways, especially because I was so travelling so much back then – which meant I had so much face time with the artists – bizarrely, my position hasn’t massively shifted other than it incorporates wider elements of a career. I am much more involved in conversations with live agents, for example, and the whole label team, and around any other kind of

“There’s so much creative projects that any artist wants to do. enjoyment to be had And what about your from getting artists relationships with Ed and Stuart? Have they changed their first big wins.” now you’re part of the team within the team? No, I don’t think it has. I think because we were pretty tight while I was in the label, and since I’ve transitioned across, that hasn’t shifted. Life’s shifted, you know, we’ve grown older, we’ve got different priorities. But actually, in terms of when we go back into campaign mode, which we are now, it’s like we’re just wearing the same old pair of shoes.

You joined a company called Grumpy Old Management, which isn’t exactly a welcome mat for new employees. Just how grumpy has Stuart turned out to be close up?

Oh he isn’t grumpy at all! He’ll often claim it’s me that’s the grumpy one in Grumpy Old Management! I think it stems from jokey conversations between him and Ed years ago. And don’t get me wrong, he can do a good impression of grumpy now and again, but the core of him really enjoys what we’re all doing; he’s up for the ride – he just doesn’t want everyone to know.

How do you guys complement each other?

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that we have known each other for so long, and neither of us are trying to vie for a central position. At the end of the day, it is Stuart’s company and Stuart is Ed Sheeran’s manager.

We do think very similarly, and he also appreciates that I’m really quite a geek when it comes to detailed data, and trying to find ways of working that people haven’t yet executed effectively.

He understands that if I do come up with ideas, and if I do feel quite strongly and passionately about shifting our strategy, he hears me completely. There’s a deep level of trust, so that we can be super honest with each other about what it is we’re looking to achieve and how we may need to shift things in order to achieve them.

There’s a huge level of transparency as well; I’m a straight talker. Stuart never doubts anything that I say, because I always give immediate context if required.

You mentioned you guys are back in campaign mode at the moment. Give us an idea of what that looks like and what does that feel like on a day-to-day basis, because a new Ed Sheeran record is a bloody big deal…

It is, but it’s all done by design. It’s not like we’re going into this blindly. We developed the strategy at the top end of the year.

We very deliberately wanted Bad Habits to come out when it did, because it’s a big pop song, and we understood that we would be entering the market cold, so we wanted to allow ourselves a minute to really reintroduce ourselves to the market and reawaken our fanbase before we needed to start accelerating towards an album.

We didn’t want a one-single strategy; we wanted to give ourselves time to breathe. And thankfully that’s proven effective because, by and

Like Stuart Camp, Gaby Cawthorne has worked with Ed Sheeran (pictured here in 2012) from the outset of his career

large, we’ve been number one in most major markets – No. 2 in America, but that will hopefully shift soon.

And it feels like we are fully reawakened, we’ve re-introduced ourselves and we’ve got a really strong footing so that, [with the] next single, we will massively amplify the launch and be in a really strong position when we go into the album mode.

And in terms of what does that feel like, it’s hectic, because we do have many key players. But, again, it’s brilliant, because Ed is very vocal and proactive. He has an opinion across the board. He’s not just kicking back, expecting us to do the heavy lifting.

Finally, what does success look like for the three of you – and between the three of you who’s most interested in the numbers?

I would say Stuart is probably the least interested. Not because he’s not interested, but because I am just the biggest geek. Ed knows the numbers, but always wants context. For him, it’s always going to be about the fans, and he is super keen to make sure that all the fans that have been invested from the beginning are being super-served, and then how to reach more people. It’s definitely Ed and I who get the most excited by numbers.

In terms of what success looks like, it would be daft in this climate to try and quantify it against one hard number. The way markets around the world have shifted and are shifting makes that not just impossible, but not helpful. So many varying milestones are being proclaimed nowadays as a type of ‘success’.

That said, we’re always going to judge ourselves against what the rest of the market’s doing. So we do look at chart positions, and it’s about what our position is within that context and how we can navigate ourselves to get as high as possible for as long as possible. We’re not ignoring the traditional metrics by any stretch, but it would be daft to say we want to reach X number of album sales. The market just doesn’t work like that anymore. n