The VIC
STRATA MAGAZINE SEPTEMBER 2026
Can an owners corporation fund private fence repairs? Page 10 | SOCM
Can a closed special resolution ballot be reopened?
Page 12 | Tisher Liner FC Law
Will short-stay bans get easier to enforce?
Page 24 | Chambers Russell Lawyers
About Us Welcome to the latest issue of The LookUpStrata Magazine! For over a decade, LookUpStrata has been Australia’s premier resource for everything related to strata living. Our mission is to keep strata communities informed and connected, providing thousands of lot owners, strata managers, and professionals with reliable, unbiased, easy-to-understand information to help you solve your strata problems and make informed decisions. The VIC Strata Magazines, published bi-monthly, are just one of the many ways we’re dedicated to supporting you. They’re packed with articles from industry experts and include our comprehensive printable strata directory.
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Advertising and Admin Enquiries: administration@lookupstrata.com.au Disclaimer: The information contained in this magazine, including the response to submitted questions, is not legal advice and should not be relied upon as legal advice. You should seek independent advice before acting on the information contained in this magazine. Strata legislation is updated regularly. The information in this magazine is based on the legislation at the time of publishing.
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Contents 4
C an our tier 4 owners corporation insure each unit separately?
18 Does our committee have the power to order a forensic audit? Colin Won, Forensic Auditors Melbourne
Tyrone Shandiman, Strata Insurance Solutions
8 Can the lot entitlements be changed to match our insurance valuation?
20 Who pays to repair a damaged storage cage fence?
Fabienne Loncar, Chambers Russell Lawyers
Tyrone Shandiman, Strata Insurance Solutions
10 Can an owners corporation fund private fence repairs?
22 Can a committee member with multiple lots outvote other owners? Kate Yeowart, Strata Savvy
Alex McCormick, SOCM
12 Can a closed special resolution ballot be reopened? Phillip Leaman, Tisher Liner FC Law
14 Who’s responsible for maintaining sub water meters on common property?
24 Will short-stay bans get easier to enforce? Fabienne Loncar, Chambers Russell Lawyers
26
The VIC LookUpStrata Directory
Hedley Gaudin, Australian Owners Corporation Management (AOCM)
16 Why can’t our owners corporation manager email the records? Alexandra Cunningham and Deborah Andronaco, Aitken Partners
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Can our tier 4 owners corporation insure each unit separately?
Our tier 4 owners corporation voted to insure each unit individually, but we can’t find an insurer. Does the new legislation allow this?
In a scheme with shared firewalls, the multiple single dwellings insurance provision does not apply. Full building insurance is required.
Our tier 4 owners corporation disagreed about whether to have flood insurance and resolved by vote to insure each unit individually. The owners corporation insures common areas and the driveway. We are having difficulty locating a strata insurer who will insure individual lots.
Amendments were made to the Owners Corporations Act 2006 (the Act) in 2021 which affect insurance. The Act notes that where there are multiple single dwellings, the owners corporation can resolve that each lot is responsible for the insurance of their lot.
We are in a quadplex. Lots are attached via a firewall with common-use post boxes and bin storage, and all pipes go through a common main in unit 1. Are we considered single dwellings if the lots are not standalone? Does the new legislation allow us to continue insuring each unit as an individual home?
However, strata insurers are not obliged to offer a product that is suitable for individual owners. Meaning not all strata insurers offer common area only policies. I am aware of only one strata insurer that offers policies for individual homes. Individual homes not covered by a strata insurance policy would
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normally be covered by a home insurance policy rather than strata insurance. If the property has shared walls and roofs, we would not consider this a single dwelling. A single dwelling would be a standalone building with separate walls and roof. In this instance, provision 61A, which allows the owners corporation to resolve to insure individually, would not apply. Meaning section 59 is applicable, and the owners corporation is required to insure all buildings.
Strata insurers will generally only offer a policy that covers all lots and common areas, or refuse to quote. Tyrone Shandiman | Strata Insurance Solutions tshandiman@iaa.net.au READ MORE HERE
59 Reinstatement and replacement insurance
(1) An owners corporation must take out reinstatement and replacement insurance for all buildings on the common property in accordance with this Division.
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Can the lot entitlements be changed to match our insurance valuation? Our plan of subdivision gives all five lots equal entitlements. A valuation shows that some lots cost far more to rebuild than the others. Can the lot entitlements be changed? We are a five-unit, self-managed townhouse owners corporation. Four of our units have a similar single-level design. The fifth is a twostory unit which is approximately 20% larger. We recently received a formal valuation for all lots. Not surprisingly, the two-story unit has a higher rebuild valuation than the others, and we are currently insured for the sum of the two valuations, on the basis that we are required to insure for the rebuilding of the total property. Our plan of subdivision specifies that each of the five lot holders has equal entitlements and liabilities. If this were strictly applied, it appears the owner of the two-story residence would not be able to rebuild to the existing standard, and our valuation consultant supports this view. It appears that all residences were originally intended to be two stories. Objections persuaded the authorities to restrict development to one two-story residence, and the plan of subdivision was never updated. Can the owners corporation amend this situation? What options exist? 8 www.lookupstrata.com.au
An owners corporation must insure every lot for its full rebuilding cost, regardless of how lot entitlements and liabilities are apportioned. Under section 59 of the Owners Corporations Act 2006 (the Act), an owners corporation must take out reinstatement and replacement insurance for all buildings on the common property. This insurance must cover, among other things, the cost required to replace, repair or rebuild the property to a condition substantially the same, but not better or more extensive than its condition when new. If the owners corporation becomes aware that the current insurance sum does not adequately cover the replacement cost of one of the lots, then it must adjust the policy amount to ensure proper coverage. Although section 55 of the Act allows a lot owner to take out their own insurance policy, this does not remove or reduce the owners corporation’s statutory obligation to comply with its own insurance duties.
Under section 23(3) of the Act, the annual fees set for insurance must be based on lot liability. Under section 23A, an owners corporation can also levy fees to cover the cost of the premium for reinstatement and replacement insurance based on lot entitlement. Here, the liabilities and entitlements are the same. Section 27F of the Subdivision Act 1988 requires that a plan of subdivision specify the lot entitlement and lot liability. From 1 December 2021, liability is primarily determined on floor area and/or use of common utilities, and lot entitlement is based on market value. It appears that the current plan may not reflect these requirements. Lot liability or entitlement can be altered by a unanimous resolution to better reflect the differences in size and market value of the double-storey townhouse. If a unanimous resolution cannot be achieved, an application may be made to VCAT, which has the power
under section 32(k) of the Subdivision Act to order changes to lot entitlements/liabilities if certain criteria are met. Under section 65(3) of the Act, the owners corporation must present the valuer’s report at the next general meeting after it is received. This may be an appropriate opportunity to raise the issues outlined above. Fabienne Loncar | Chambers Russell Lawyers floncar@chambersrussell.com.au READ MORE HERE
Can an owners corporation fund private fence repairs?
Our owners corporation signed a fence replacement contract before realising fences are lot property. Only some owners have opted in. How do we manage everyone’s expectations? Our owners corporation signed a contract to replace fences about two years ago, then found out the fences are lot property. The complex consists of 40% townhouses with fences bordering the common property, and the remaining 60% of lots are apartments. Some townhouse owners have opted to replace their fence, but not all. It’s not simple because new gates may not fit an old fence. If we replace gate posts, we’re touching a fence of someone who didn’t opt in. It’s messy, even before factoring in the finance already locked in. We are negotiating with the contractor, who will likely charge us more given the delay. The committee is divided. Some owners are demanding answers and dates. How do we manage everyone’s expectations?
Before an owners corporation can pay for privately owned fencing, it must pass a special resolution. Straight off the bat, it’s probably important to acknowledge that while the specifics are unique, what’s common to the issue at hand is a change in information, or the “source of truth” evolving to be understood as something different than first thought. There are definitely two parts to this: the dissection of who lawfully owns what, and the resolutions required if the owners corporation intends to pay for private property works. Secondly, how is this managed from an expectations standpoint? It’s important to note that the owners corporation can’t pay to cover the cost of private fencing without a special resolution to do so. It’s not entirely clear what the “opt in/ out” discussion and agreement referenced look 10 www.lookupstrata.com.au
like. If it’s a case of “we asked for permission, and they’re ok”, then that wouldn’t be sufficient for the lawful resolution required, and a special resolution still needs to be put into place. For expectations, it’s definitely ok to pull back and take a fresh stance on things. “We thought it was a case of ABC, but it’s actually a different situation that is more XYZ.” At this stage/if not already, I would now involve the owners corporation manager to provide guidance on the Plan of Subdivision and what is possible under an ordinary resolution, versus what requires a special resolution, and also which private lot owners are prepared to “join in” and pay for any works themselves. After that conversation, you’ll be in a position to discuss the matter properly with all owners. There may well be an appetite for owners to allow the owners corporation to pay for works to upgrade or repair privately owned fences. So often the missing step in these situations is the communications piece. The most important step right now is for that conversation to happen between owners – and for it to go beyond committee. There are legislative requirements for the original intention to proceed, and if the owners involved either don’t want to give consent or don’t want to foot the bill, the best way to navigate this is through an open and informed discussion. Once any absolute positions and the boundaries of title are properly understood by all, as well as the required resolutions to go forward, THEN the process can potentially restart. More than a few VCAT cases centred on fencing have occurred because of not enough conversation first. My very strong suggestion is to hold an open meeting, lay out all the possibilities with assistance from your owners corporation manager, and work with the available paths from there. Alex McCormick | SOCM alex@socm.com.au READ MORE HERE
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Can a closed special resolution ballot be reopened?
Our special resolution ballot on roof repairs closed and was declared, but one committee member now wants to chase up the missing vote. Should the result stand? We are an owners corporation of 8 units, and I’m 1 of the 3 committee members. The existing roof has been leaking over the past year despite minor repairs, and it requires major repairs. We obtained two quotes with a significant price difference. One was for full repair work and the other for a paint-on membrane. All committee members decided that, due to the high cost, this should be sent to all owners as a special resolution ballot to decide which quote to proceed with. The ballot closed in June, and the result were declared by the owners corporation manager a few days later via email. Of the 8 units, 4 voted for full repair and 3 for the paint on option, with 1 unit not voting. One of the other committee members, who prefers the paint on option, is now requesting to contact the owner who did not vote and ask them to submit a vote.
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Given the ballot has closed and been declared, shouldn’t this result stand? The owners corporation manager is suggesting that, as this was an informal ballot, the committee can allow additional time. Is this correct?
Once a compliant ballot closes, it cannot be reopened, only rerun. There is no such thing as an informal ballot. Either the ballot complies with the requirements set out under the Owners Corporations Act 2006, or it does not. If it does not comply, then before the owners corporation takes any action, a formal resolution must be passed. If the ballot was a ballot conducted under the Act, then the owners corporation can’t reopen the ballot after it has closed. A new vote will be required if the parties entitled to convene a ballot decide to do so. Phillip Leaman | Tisher Liner FC Law ocenquiry@tlfc.com.au READ MORE HERE
Who’s responsible for maintaining sub water meters on common property? Who is responsible for maintaining sub water meters located on common property? Does it come down to who owns the meter? We’re trying to find out who is responsible for maintaining sub water meters on common property, which form part of the water network at a strata property in Victoria.
Responsibility for maintaining a sub water meter depends on who owns it and whether it serves one lot exclusively. Given this question is detailed as “part of the water network” and not a “hot water network” or “hot water meter,” we will consider it a water meter on the mains supply to a lot, unrelated to a hot water meter from a communal hot water system, and that the meter covers supply to a single lot rather than one meter to multiple lots. The easiest and quickest solution would be to contact your owners corporation manager, or in the event of no professional manager, the committee or chairperson. Reference should also be made to the party issuing invoices, the billing provider or utility supplier, who should be able to answer the question. If the query of maintenance responsibility for the water sub meter remains unsatisfied, there are a couple of questions to be answered to determine responsibility. Responsibility for maintenance of the meter turns principally on: • who owns the meter; • whether the service serves one lot exclusively or multiple lots/common property; • and what the plan of subdivision/deed/ service agreement says. 14 www.lookupstrata.com.au
The physical location of meter/s on common property alone does not determine who is responsible for its maintenance. It is common for lot meters to be in common property service cupboards or externally located in common property areas. Typically, the owners corporation maintains the main line serving all lots from the street or supply to the individual meters. In contrast, the individual lot owner maintains the branch line serving that lot exclusively from the lot side of the meter, even where that branch line passes through common property. Typically, the branch line is from the individual lot meter back to the lot. Typically, the water authority manages the supply up to the point where it enters the owners corporation property from the street or public property. Water authority installed individual meters or “check meters” are usually installed and owned by the local water authority, who retain ownership of the meter and maintain the meter itself. The owners corporation or the embedded network operator typically owns private sub-meters. In these cases, the ownership/ service agreement will define maintenance responsibilities, and the owners corporation should have a copy, or the utility supplier should be able to provide one. The utility supplier should easily be able to answer this question if contacted directly. If the lot privately installed and owns the meter for their own purposes and it forms an exclusive service to their lot, even if located on common property, there is a strong argument for the lot owner to be responsible for the maintenance under section 129(b) of the Owners Corporations Act 2006 (the Act), whereby a lot owner must maintain any service that serves that lot exclusively.
Subject to the meter not being owned by a water authority, private utility supplier or embedded network operator, then there is a stronger argument that the owners corporation owns and is responsible for the meter under section 46 and section 47 of the Act, whereby an owners corporation must repair and maintain services for the benefit of more than one lot and common property. Even in the unlikely event the meter is servicing multiple lots and so forms part of a shared service. However, if the meter services only a section of lots, not all lots, the owners corporation may consider applying the benefit principle to any associated costs, whereby the lots that benefit pay the costs. Yarra Valley Water, Barwon Water & South East Water expressly recognise check meters for unit developments. Where there are multiple units, there may be a main meter plus individual check meters. The check meters provide measurements for billing individual lots.
Excess main meter consumption would relate to common-area water usage or leaks and will be payable by the owners corporation. Their website states that the water authority owns and is responsible for the water meter and stop tap, while plumbing after the meter is generally the property owner’s responsibility. Hedley Gaudin | Australian Owners Corporation Management (AOCM) hedley.gaudin@aocm.com.au READ MORE HERE
Why can’t our owners corporation manager email the records? Our committee requested records, but the owners corporation manager insists on an office visit rather than emailing copies. Why won’t they provide the records electronically? Members of our committee have requested copies of invoices and ledgers from the owners corporation management company. This involves submitting a form listing the documents, then scheduling a time to visit their office 14 days later. The manager is using various stalling tactics to avoid handing over copies of our records. Why can’t the owners corporation manager supply us with digital copies via email?
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Lot owners have a right to inspect records free of charge, but there is no obligation to supply digital copies. section 144 of the Owners Corporations Act 2006 (the Act) sets out the records that must be kept by the owners corporation, including fee notices and ledgers. section 148 of the Act sets out the documents that must be kept in the owners corporation register, including the plan number and lot entitlement and liability. section 146 and section 150 of the Act set out that the records and register are to be made available to lot owners for inspection at any reasonable time, free of charge, and that the owners corporation is entitled to require payment of a reasonable fee for any copies requested during the inspection.
In the decision of Pekar v Owners Corporation No SP 34630W (Owners Corporation) [2012] VCAT 360 (29 March 2012), VCAT confirmed the correct procedure for a lot owner seeking access to records and held that: “[17] The right is to inspect. There is no right to demand a copy of a document, although an unreasonable refusal to supply a copy after there has been an offer to pay a reasonable fee might well prompt the Tribunal to make an order for provision of a copy. The proper procedure for a lot owner to follow is this: 1. make a request for inspection;
Unfortunately, the Act does not require managers to give copies without inspection, which limits recourse, even though records are often stored electronically, and many managers choose to provide access freely. If the manager continues to delay, a lot owner can escalate the issue by making a formal written request for timely access, raising the matter with the committee, or applying to VCAT for an order requiring the owners corporation to provide access to the records. Alexandra Cunningham and Deborah Andronaco Aitken Partners info@aitken.com.au READ MORE HERE
2. attend the place where the records are kept and inspect them; 3. select any document a copy of which the lot owner wishes to have; 4. pay any reasonable fee demanded for the copy.”
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Does our committee have the power to order a forensic audit? Our OC received a qualified audit report. We’ve since found other inconsistencies. Can the committee commission a forensic audit? We sit on the committee of a 42-lot owners corporation (OC). The qualified audit report from our last AGM noted incomplete documentation, saying this isn’t unusual for OCs our size. A few of us went through the financials closely and found several unexplained inconsistencies. We are waiting on more information from our OC manager. We’re concerned this goes beyond what a standard audit would catch. What does a forensic audit involve, and under the Owners Corporations Act 2006 (the Act), does the committee have authority to appoint one independently?
A committee generally has authority to commission a definedscope forensic review without a full owners corporation vote. A 42-lot owners corporation is classified as a Tier 3 OC under the Act and is not required to have its financial statements audited annually. However, under section 35(4), a Tier 3 OC may resolve at its AGM to have its financial statements audited or independently reviewed. A qualified audit report is something the committee should take seriously. A qualification does not necessarily indicate financial mismanagement or wrongdoing. Rather, it means the auditor was unable to obtain sufficient evidence to support certain aspects of the financial statements. There is also an important distinction between a standard financial statement audit and a forensic accounting investigation. A standard audit is principally directed toward expressing an opinion on the financial statements as a whole. It is not designed to identify or investigate every individual anomaly, transaction or suspected irregularity. A forensic audit is generally more targeted. It starts with a defined concern or objective, e.g., unexplained 18 www.lookupstrata.com.au
expenditure, discrepancies between invoices and accounting records, unusual related-party transactions, and examines the relevant transactions and source documentation in greater detail. I would generally recommend a defined-scope forensic review rather than an unrestricted forensic audit. The committee should identify the specific anomalies or concerns and engage a forensic accountant to investigate them. This usually produces a more useful and cost-effective outcome than simply asking someone to re-audit the entire financial statements. Before commencing, access to source documentation is important. Section 146 of the Act requires the OC, on request by an entitled person such as a lot owner, to make records required to be kept under the Act available for inspection at any reasonable time. Where those records are held or administered by the OC manager, the committee should request that they be produced. Continued inability to obtain relevant OC records should itself be documented and may warrant further advice regarding the OC manager’s obligations from a solicitor or Consumer Affairs Victoria as the body overseeing the OC manager registration. Committee authority
Section 11 of the Act provides for powers and functions of the OC to be delegated to its committee. Where no specific delegation to the committee is in force, section 11(5) generally delegates to the committee the powers and functions of the OC other than matters which must be determined by unanimous or special resolution or at a general meeting. Accordingly, in our view, a committee would ordinarily be capable of resolving to engage an independent forensic accountant or consultant to investigate defined financial concerns without waiting for the next AGM, provided the engagement falls within the committee’s delegated powers. It is not being undertaken as the statutory audit or review under section 35. The committee should also check for any existing restrictions on its delegated authority or on its expenditure limits. Colin Won | Forensic Auditors Melbourne colin@forensicauditorsmelbourne.com.au READ MORE HERE
Who pays to repair a damaged storage cage fence? Does strata insurance cover the cost of repairing a damaged fence surrounding the common area storage cages in my apartment building after a break-in? There was a break-in to my storage cage area in the basement of my apartment. The fence of the storage area has been cut open. Who covers the repairs or replacement of the fence (not the contents in the storage cage area)? Are the owners responsible for paying the strata insurance excess?
It depends on whether the storage cage fence is common property or part of the lot, according to the registered plan of subdivision. The first step would be to confirm whether the storage cage and, in particular, the damaged fence, forms part of your individual lot or is common property. This is determined by reference to the registered plan of subdivision and the boundaries shown on that plan. This distinction is important both in determining responsibility for the repair and in considering who is responsible for any insurance excess. The owners corporation is responsible for the repair and maintenance of common property. Accordingly, if the storage cage fence is common property, responsibility for arranging its repair would ordinarily rest with the owners corporation.
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In relation to the insurance excess, section 23A(3) of the Owners Corporations Act 2006 specifically deals with circumstances in which an owners corporation may levy an insurance excess against an individual lot owner. Therefore, if the storage cage fence is common property, the excess would ordinarily be an owners corporation expense. Whereas, if it forms part of the lot, the excess may be levied against the lot owner. We would therefore recommend reviewing the registered plan of subdivision before determining responsibility for the repair or allocating the insurance excess. Any personal contents stored within the cage would generally need to be considered separately under the owner’s own contents insurance.
This information is of a general nature only and neither represents nor is intended to be personal advice on any particular matter. Shandit Pty Ltd T/as Strata Insurance Solutions strongly suggests that no person should act specifically on the basis of the information in this document, but should obtain appropriate professional advice based on their own personal circumstances and the specific coverage afforded under their policy wording. Shandit Pty Ltd T/As Strata Insurance Solutions is a Corporate Authorised Representative (No. 404246) of Insurance Advisernet Australia AFSL No 240549, ABN 15 003 886 687. Tyrone Shandiman | Strata Insurance Solutions tshandiman@iaa.net.au READ MORE HERE
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Can a committee member with multiple lots outvote other owners? I own 2 lots in an 8-unit complex and believe that gives me 2 votes on our deadlocked committee, but our strata management company disagrees. Who is right? I live in a block of 8 units. For the past 10 years, as a committee member, I have raised an issue with our owners corporation manager regarding another owner utilising the common property laundry, common garden and laneway as their personal storage room. This is causing concern and devaluing the property because of its messy appearance. Aside from sending out breach notices with no follow-up after 28 days, the strata manager refuses to do anything further. They say they have no power to enforce the rules and it is up to the committee members to make decisions about what happens next. The breaching owner is one of the three committee members and refuses to comply or to have a dispute resolution meeting. The other owner wants to abstain from making any decisions, so I am left as the only person fighting this out. I own 2 units. Do I have 2 votes in the matter? If one owner abstains and the other is the breaching party, do I have the majority? The strata management company does not think so.
Voting rights are one vote per person on the committee, not per lot owned. It is incredibly frustrating when common property is misappropriated, especially when it impacts the amenity of your home and the committee appears unwilling to act. To set aside one simple matter first: no matter how many lots you own, in accordance with section 112(3) of the Owners Corporations Act 2006 (the Act), you would only have one vote on the committee. However, if there were a vote of all 22 www.lookupstrata.com.au
lots, you would have as many votes as you own lots, except if you have a conflict of interest (section 117 of the Act). As for the issue in dispute, the matter is simple: the lot owner using the common property for storage is in breach of rule 4.1(1) of the Owners Corporations Regulations 2018 Schedule 2 Model Rules (the Model Rules), which apply here provided the owners corporation hasn’t registered its own rules dealing with this. If it has registered rules, those would govern instead of the Model Rules on this point. As to how to manage the dispute, I would again rely upon the Model Rules, assuming no registered rules cover the grievance process. The Model Rules make it clear that should you make a written complaint in the approved form, the owners corporation must convene a grievance meeting (either with the grievance committee or the whole owners corporation). The parties meet to discuss the matter, and a decision must be made and notified to the parties within 14 days of the meeting. My advice is to start by filing a formal complaint to trigger the dispute resolution meeting. The appropriate form is available online. At any such meeting, the two parties in dispute are not entitled to vote on the matter (due to conflict of interest), but if the owners corporation does not convene a dispute resolution meeting in accordance with the Model Rules, you have the right under Part 11 of the Act to make an application to VCAT to adjudicate on the matter. If you were to make such an application, you need to consider whether to include the owners corporation as well as the manager in the action. At all times, the manager has a duty to act in accordance with the Act and the Model Rules, but may be hampered by the committee not providing instructions. Therefore, the best course of action is for you to trigger the matter by making a formal complaint. To support your position further, you should ensure that you keep clear records of all communications on the matter and take images of the common property areas in question. Kate Yeowart | Strata Savvy kate@stratasavvy.com.au READ MORE HERE
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Will short-stay bans get easier to enforce?
24 www.lookupstrata.com.au
Will bans on short-stay accommodation be addressed in the upcoming strata legislation changes? Will enforcement of short-term letting be easier? Short-stay bans themselves aren’t changing, but enforcement may become easier if nonmonetary VCAT action can be authorised by ordinary resolution instead of a higher threshold.
No, bans on short stay are still not going to really change, but it’s the enforcement that’s going to change. If section 18 now allows nonmonetary actions to be commenced by an ordinary resolution. What that means is the committee can enforce short-stay breaches, or short-stay rules themselves in VCAT directly, and possibly deter them that way. There’s already a section in the Act that lets you do a bit of a three-strikes-you’re-banned situation. That’s section 169D. It’s a prohibition order. If you get three breach notices, you can go to VCAT and ask them to ban that lot from shortstay use. No one’s done that yet, because it needs 75%. But if you can now get that as an ordinary resolution, that pathway might be more accessible. Fabienne Loncar | Chambers Russell Lawyers floncar@chambersrussell.com.au READ MORE HERE
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