Big Enough Dreams

Sherry Lansing i Rio Lobo, 1970

BIG ENOUGH DREAMS?

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Interview with Sherry Lansing

Sherry Lansing is the former CEO of Paramount Pictures, and when she was the president of production at 20th Century Fox, she was the first woman ever to head a Hollywood studio. She produced films like Fatal Attraction, Indecent Proposal and The Accused. When she was heading Paramount the studio produced big blockbuster films like Forrest Gump, Braveheart and Titanic. I met Sherry Lansing during CPH PIX in April 2014. She was in Copenhagen accompanying her husband, William Friedkin, who was to be presented with a Lifetime Achievement Award by the Danish Film Academy.

BY Birgitte StĂŚrmose

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Today I think I am interviewing the woman who has been the most powerful in the film business ever!

That is very kind of you.

At least I could not come up with another name. I feel that you must have a really unique perspective of what it means to be a woman in the film business because you have held such a powerful position.

Well, when I started in the movie business, women were mostly story editors and there had never been a woman who ran a studio before. And I have to say that when I began, I began with a love of movies. That was really all I cared about. I didn’t begin and say: ‘I want to be the first woman to run a studio’ or ‘I want to be a director or producer’. I just wanted to work in the movie business.

So my path and my mission was a love of films. That is really all I cared about.

Films had affected my life. From the time I was a child they were my very favorite thing to do. Go to the movies. Double features, you know. I used to get lost in the movies. And they affected the way I thought, the way I felt. There were lessons sometimes, you know. And I thought that it was the most powerful means of communication, and I wanted to be part of that. At the time when I was growing up there were no film schools. I think maybe there was one or two. So I couldn’t even study film. My parents, rightfully so, said: ‘You have to go to college’. And so I studied theater, English and math. I became an English and math teacher. My parents said: ‘You have to support yourself’. So I was a teacher. That was a fabulous career. It was my second love. I soon turn 70. I grew up during a time when women didn’t have a lot of options in the United States. It was really teacher or nurse and get married and have children. All wonderful careers: wife, mother, teacher, nurse.

I wanted to make movies. So I graduated college, I packed my bags and I went to California to try my luck as an actress, because I didn’t know anything else in the movie business. I hadn’t really studied it. The whole world has changed now. It is completely changed, thank God. I was a terrible actress. On top of it I also didn’t like being an actress. But I saw what other people were doing. So I learned by doing. And because I had a degree in English I realized that I could be a story editor, which is a script reader. I could read scripts. So I quit acting and started reading scripts for an independent producer. I loved that job. I just loved it. I couldn’t believe that someone was actually paying me to read scripts and write my opinion.

And then eventually I got invited in to the meetings, because he was a producer the man that I worked for, a man named Ray Wagner. He was an extraordinary mentor and teacher. He had no prejudice against women. He would say: ‘Oh, you are good at what you do, come into the meeting and see what we do’. He let me work with writers and develop scripts. He gave me confidence to express my opinions. And then I kinda worked my way up within the studio system. And the truth is: I loved every job that I did. I wasn’t angry. It was a different world. I am sort of ashamed of the way I thought at the time.

What part are you ashamed of?

I am ashamed of the part that I didn’t have bigger ambitions. I was so grateful to be reading scripts. I was so grateful when I got a job at MGM. I was head of all the script readers. Then I was

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Sherry Lansing with her husband William Friedkin and CPH PIX Director Jacob Neiiendam at PCH PIX 2014.

They asked: ‘Do you think that there will ever be a woman head of a studio, and I said: ‘No, there won’t. Not in my lifetime.’ so grateful when I became Vice President of Creative Affairs. I wasn’t raised like I would raise a daughter today. I would say to my daughter: ‘You can do anything’, ‘You can be President of the United States.’ ‘You can run the company.’ I wasn’t raised that way. I was raised to get married, have two children … but I didn’t want to! You know what I mean? And I was raised by a mother who was fantastic and who did work, but who didn’t put those ambitions in my head, because it wasn’t part of the reality. I don’t think she was holding me back, I just think that it wasn’t part of the reality.

I just worked really hard. And I really loved what I was doing. And I didn’t encounter prejudice as I went up each step. I never thought a woman could run a studio in my lifetime. I said it in an interview in Life magazine. I really literally said that! They asked: ‘Do you think that there will ever be a woman head of a studio, and I said: ‘No, there won’t. Not in my lifetime.’ And I remember two women, who were my peer group, calling me and they were outraged that I had said that. I, for the first time, realized that I didn’t have big enough dreams.

You realized it when they called you up?

They said: ‘How can you say that?!’ And I said: ‘But it is true.’ They said: ‘No, it isn’t! How dare you say that? You may not think that you can do that, but we think that we can do that.’ And I really realized that I did not have good enough self-esteem. That I didn’t have enough self-worth, you know?

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’I wanted to work more than I wanted to get married and have kids.’

How old were you?

Those calls were probably when I was about 28 to 30. Maybe 32… I am not sure. But young. I was also newly divorced. I think that I got divorced when I was 26. I had married my first boyfriend, and I needed to learn a lot. I thought I am probably going to make the same mistakes again, so I went into therapy. I went into conscious analysis - psychotherapy. And I went a lot. And when they called me from Life magazine I remember saying to my therapist: ‘There will never be a woman head of a studio’. And then I remember – and this is where it really started to change – I was Vice President of Colombia Pictures and the head of the studio was looking for someone to be head of production, which is actually running the studio like the chairman. I remember saying to my therapist: ‘There are two guys and I don’t care which one gets it. And he said: ‘Why don’t you think that you can get it??’ And it was my therapist who said this to me.

The two girls that had called affected me, but I still didn’t think that I would be the person. I didn’t say it anymore, but I didn’t think I was going to be the person. I just kept working hard. It must all have happened within the same 6-month period, and I remember my therapist saying to me: ‘Why

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don’t you think you can do it?’ I said: ‘I could never do it’. He said: ‘Why?’ I never answered. And it was his question that made me kind of analyze myself that I did not have enough self-esteem to go after that job. Now I don’t think that is that unusual at 31 or 32 that you might not, it’s part of growth. But it was the first time that I started to talk about it,- and I then went and asked for the job.

And did you get it?

No. No, I didn’t get it because they said to me afterwards that by that time I had been the executive in charge of two of the biggest hit movies. Kramer vs Karmer and China Syndrome. Two of the biggest movies. So I actually was qualified! And they said: ‘Look you won’t get any men to work for you. You can’t do it.’ I said: ‘Thank you…’ And today you’d sue! A class-action suit. That is the real thing. And instead I went: ‘Oh, okay’. And yet I had made the move mentally to say: ‘Wait a minute’.

And I had made the move in therapy to say: ‘I was raised by a mother – I love my mother – to get married, have two children, raised really not to work, to do one of two careers, and only until you get married. Suddenly I was divorced. Suddenly I was in careers that were not one of the only two careers that women could do. And I loved my work, I just absolutely loved it. And it was really the most important thing to me. I wanted to work more than I wanted to get married and have kids. It may be very unpopular to say, but that is how I felt at the time. I often think about at 32 had I fallen madly in love, I would have gone on location at the time instead of being good to my boyfriend.

You know what I mean? I made choices. I don’t regret any of those choices. I put myself in. I was resilient. I didn’t get the job. I guess I never expected to get it. And I was kind of proud that I did what I did. And then very shortly thereafter, they said they would give me a new contract. And then I was offered the job at Fox (red: as the first female President of 20th Century Fox). And the thing is I did not have trouble having men report to me.

I’ll tell you a great story. And these are not stories of men keeping women down, they are stories of men doing great things in terms of mentoring me. And other women saying don’t hold us back.

And they were right! And my male therapist saying: ‘Why can’t you do it?’ My lawyer went in to negotiate my salary with 20th Century Fox. I was earning x and he doubled it. He said: ‘She was a Vice President and now she is the Chair, so she should get x’. And my new boss said: ‘No, we have to give her exactly what the men are making or no one will take her seriously’. So he gave me more.

He was so stupid my lawyer – who has since passed away – we were stupid! So now I was 35 years old and I was running Fox. That was not a horrible story. I was very young. Not a horrible story.

Of course I encountered no trouble having men work for me. I encountered no trouble having authority. I only encountered the normal problems that a man or woman has in that kind of job.

Getting the movie you wanted distributed right, bla bla… I do remember along the way when I was at MGM, I wanted the same salary as the man. They wanted to give him more because he had kids to support… Today you would sue. They would never do that in the United States. There would be like a law suit.

I guess my advice, which is naíve and stupid, but it is the only thing that really worked for me is that I really loved the process of what I was doing. I loved the jobs. And I didn’t really worry about what the next one was, I was just obsessed with what I was doing. I never said I want to be there.

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I was really happy being here. I guess I was just good at it and then I got that and then I got that and that. The irony is as much as I loved running studios, what I really loved doing was producing, more than being an executive. And the very first interview I did when I got this job at Fox, was with the New York Times. There had never been a woman in this kind of position before. That showed how things were not equal. Because if things were equal it wouldn’t have been on the front page of the New York Times. It was such big news. Today women running studios is in the business section of the paper. Not a big deal in the United States.

The numbers keep going up and down and sideways and backwards, but women really are accepted in the movie business, they really can do any job that they want. They don’t always want to do all the jobs that are there. Someone said to me: ‘Why is there no female Sumner Redstone (red: multi-billionaire media magnate). Maybe no woman wants that job. Maybe we want to be involved in making the movies. But I guarantee you that there is some girl sitting in the Harvard Business School who wants Sumner Redstone’s job - and she will eventually be it. Women are running the tech companies, like Sheryl Sandberg. Women have come such a long way in my life-time. Actually I was interviewed the first day I had the job, and I was asked: ‘Do you know what you want to do next? I know that is a pretty stupid question…’ And I said: ‘No, I want to produce movies!’

I think there is tremendous change in what is happening in the film business in the last thirty years. It isn’t perfect. There is still a long way to go. The numbers still aren’t what anybody wants in directing and cinematography. But there have been a lot of women that run studios or networks.

There have been women that have won Academy awards – Kathryn Bigelow. And no one says that a women can’t do an action movie. The most popular teenage movies now – Twilight, Hunger Games – they all star women.

You have really succeeded at a time when it wasn’t as easy as it would be now.

I don’t think that it is easy now. I want to be really clear about that. I don’t think the film business is easy for women or men to succeed in. I think it is a business that requires hard, hard work. You give up huge parts of your life because you want to make that movie so badly. It is a passion. It is not work. It is a love. And it requires luck. I worked really hard and I had luck on my side too.

I guess I also have this kind of personality that when negativity was around me, I just didn’t pay attention to it. I just kind of concentrated on making the movies. I just didn’t care about anything else. So when there was great negativity or people saying you can’t do this or people being rude or people not maybe treating me the way I should be treated – I didn’t spend a lot of time on it.

I picked my battles, I guess is the way to say it. And I concentrated mostly on the work. Because 18

the only thing that lasts is the films. That is the only thing that lasts. Even when they are not appreciated at the time, and if you are really lucky it comes around. Now audiences with the new media are discovering films that didn’t get their justice. For me, I picked my battles and I ignored a lot of stuff. I am not saying it was easy. Like you brought it up with Fatal Attraction. That film was turned down by all the studios twice! And resiliency. You just pick yourself up. I never felt sorry for myself. I just kept going.

’I loved the jobs. And I didn’t really worry about what the next one was, I was just obsessed with what I was doing. I never said I want to be there. I was really happy being here.’

At Paramount people would come and ask for advice for what to do after film school. I would ask them what they wanted to do. And they would answer that they wanted my job. They were 22. And I would ask, but what do you want to do now? And they didn’t have an answer. They were robbing themselves of the journey of life… You are a film director, but you didn’t start out being a film director. Usually you start out carrying the coffee for somebody. Guys do that too.

So do you think that we have reached a level of equality that is acceptable?

There is more to be done. Of course! But I have never been in a meeting where somebody said that we can’t buy that script because it is written by a woman. And I have never been in a meeting where we can’t hire that director because she is a woman. I have never been in a meeting like that.

I have never had that experience. Well, I am a woman. Maybe they had those meetings when I was not there. I never had that happen. Now I have been in many meetings where I offered brilliant female directors scripts that they did not want to do. They were too conventional. They did not want to direct them. I respect that.

I certainly have been in meetings where women didn’t get the job. And I can’t always tell you why they didn’t get the job. But I never heard anyone say that it was because she was a woman. People get jobs because they connect. We share the same sex and maybe like some of the same things. If you go to a meeting presenting three directors and they are all equal talent, you tend to choose the person you feel the most comfortable with. I have seen that happen.

You mean that the man might get it because it feels more secure?

I don’t know…I have never been in a meeting where I heard someone say I don’t want a woman for that job, never.

I personally don’t believe that there is conscious discrimination of any real consequence. I would agree with that.

Is it subconscious? That you feel more comfortable with somebody? That might be true. But then I have to say to you, when I left the movie business there were more women running movie studios 19

Perennially on the front lines in the fight for women’s reproductive freedom, Gloria Steinem (third from the right) marches in Washington DC in 1992.

than men. So the numbers should have been great. And they are still not. It is pretty gender blind in the movie business, but the numbers have to get up. But what goes on in someone’s subconscious I can’t tell you. Maybe it is subconscious…

And what would make the numbers get better?

More people choosing more women!

Do you think that the women themselves are to be blamed? I have heard people argue that the women don’t really want it enough. Women don’t want to fight for it.

No no, I don’t agree with that. Women want it and they want to fight for it. When I was running a studio women often did not want to do those movies, they wanted to do other movies. But that is fair. I love The First Wives Club, but I met a lot of women who didn’t want to direct that movie. We ended up with a male director. I also felt it had to be directed by a woman, but no one wanted to do it. I love the movie, but people are entitled to say: ‘I don’t want to do that movie’. By the way, I think 36 directors turned it down, so it wasn’t just the women turning it down!

Women entered the work force late. I think that I might be a perfect example. Like I said, when I entered the work force 45 years ago there were two options. The women’s movement is new. Gloria Steinem was marching when I was starting to work. We were marching for civil rights, and then we were marching for the women’s movement. My generation was the first generation that was marching. Gloria is going to be 80. So we entered the work force late, so we came into the film business later. So we chose careers in the film business later. And because we chose them later we are just starting to build mass.

And that is happening as we are speaking. There were few women directors. It will grow exponentially.

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Glenn Close i Fatal Attraction, 1987

’..I never saw it, ever, as a condemnation of the working woman. It is the farthest from my mind! ’ I don’t know what is going on now, but when I was head of the studio we made a lot of female empowerment movies. A lot. We made one after another. But I liked those movies, and so I made what I liked.

During my preparation for our interview today I stumbled upon the story about Fatal Attraction.

A film that you produced. I was wondering, if you could talk about the backlash towards you after that film came out.

Yeah, that really hurt…

I would like to talk about this because I am curious to hear if you feel that there is an accepted range of behavior for a female lead character? And what happens when you go outside of that range?

I made Fatal Attraction when I think I was 40. I am turning 70, so that was 30 years ago. It is a long time ago. I think it has changed. I think that women can do anything now. Women are complex and we can play all parts – we don’t always have to be a saint. Then I was fascinated by many cases in the United States where very respectable women had lovers that had betrayed them and they retaliated.

There was this woman who ran a boarding school for women. (red: Jean Harris http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Jean_Harris) And she killed her lover! And I just was fascinated by what happened? I had seen it in myself even. I had seen in like your boyfriend leaves you and you can’t get out of bed! And once I drove by his house. And what does that accomplish? It was like before caller id. I called and then I hung up the phone. Today you couldn’t even do that because there is caller id!!

I did that! I don’t know what that accomplishes. So I knew that pain of being left, you know? And I thought how does it happen that a really accomplished person who has a successful career, has 21

Goldie Hawn, Bette Midler og Diane Keaton First Wives Club, 1996

girlfriends, has male friends, sometimes they have children – a guy leaves and you think your whole life is gone! Your whole self-esteem is gone! So that is what got me interested in the story.

I had a partner, Stanley Jaffe, and the director Adrian Lyne. We all were interested in different sides of the triangle. But for me the Glenn Close character was fascinating, and for me it was about how your actions have consequences. And how, when a man or a woman sleeps with somebody, you call that person the next day. You show respect that you have shared something. I am not saying that you would go out with them again, but you say: ‘Hey this was great, but let’s not take it any further’ – or whatever. But you don’t just ignore the person. I think the worst thing you can do is to ignore somebody, you know?

So I actually wanted to make the movie about how your actions have consequences. And I never saw it, ever, as a condemnation of the working woman. It is the farthest from my mind! And I never thought of it… Well, it would be like saying the Italians are terrible because you saw The Godfather.

It was just crazy to me. And the film was being attacked. I read the reviews. And some were good.

In retrospect now of course everybody thinks it was a good movie, but at the time it got very mixed reviews. And they said it was anti-feminist. And I am a feminist! I couldn’t believe they were saying that. So I called some friends of mine, and they said: ‘Well, we are struggling so hard to get our rights and by doing this you are painting a portrait of a career woman’. I said: ‘One career woman, not everybody, that is just not true…’

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Today I don’t think that you would have that conversation… I hope not. I mean Glenn Close was brilliant. She was fantastic. Honestly, I think that it was one married guy too many for her. And I think, it was one hurt too many. And I think it tipped her. You know what I mean? Which is probably what causes somebody to go into madness. We can all be sane, and then something tips us. I think probably everybody has some tipping point and hopefully we’ll never get to it. And hers was one guy too many, one rejection too many, the loneliness, whatever…

’If it is the subconscious, that comfort zone thing, that is what drives it, then having more women in positions of power should change it over time.’

I like to think that we by now as women have come to a point in our life where we have unlimited options. I’d like to think that any female director has an equal shot at getting any film she wants to do. I’d like to think that we’re going to show women in varied ways. Not all good. I think of films that I’ve seen. I think we’re showing films and no one is saying: ‘Well, that is a career woman’. I think women are really quite accepted in the work place. I think then it was about that the rights were newly being won and then the film came out - and I think that was it.

It hurt! I was really hurt that they wrote that. It was the farthest thing from my mind. It never really occurred to me. To me it was a study in Michael Douglas’ responsibility as a character – your actions have consequences. You don’t just sleep with somebody and think that is it. It does have consequences. You pick up the phone, you treat people with respect. Someone once said to me: ‘I don’t think that too many men have one night stands without calling somebody the next day anymore’. You don’t want to have a fatal attraction!

If I had told my mother that I wanted to go to film school, she would have told me that I couldn’t study that, it is not a respectable job for a woman. Today as a mother you would say: ‘Of course, that is a wonderful career’. That is what I think that it is. We have to realize that we are new to the work force. We are new to the film industry. But once the glass ceiling has been broken it is not a big deal the next time. If it is the subconscious, that comfort zone thing, that is what drives it, then having more women in positions of power should change it over time.

I was lucky because of the men I worked for, they did not have it. They hired lots of women and were extremely supportive. Women never go into it for the power or the money. And by the way I never felt powerful. I never did. I just felt about the films that I produced: ‘Please see this beautiful child that I produced’.

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