The Properties of Pudgal Parmanu

Questioner: And that is indeed what we can see, isn’t it? This formation of a coconut tree, the formation of mango tree, a neem tree; all of these can be referred to as the inherent nature of the pudgal, can’t they?

Dadashri: Yes.

Questioner: And it is because there is the presence of the Self in it that such an inherent nature arises, isn’t that so?

Dadashri: It would never happen without the presence [of the Self], would it! Everything is indeed functioning because of Its presence.

Questioner: The fact that this pudgal became bitter, that is the inherent nature of that pudgal. Then for a mango to become sweet, to become sour, for water to fill inside a coconut, all of that is also the inherent nature of that pudgal. But that cannot happen without the presence of the Self, so then, how does the Self help in that? What is the connection between that and the Self?

Dadashri: The truth is, the word ‘pudgal’ is used to refer to certain things. But otherwise, the inherent nature is of the Parmanu, and this can occur without the presence of the Self. The pudgal, however, has arisen only due to the presence of the Self. The parmanu that have deviated from their inherent nature (vikaari parmanu) are referred to as pudgal.

Questioner: Now, have those parmanu deviated from their inherent nature because of the presence of the Self?

Dadashri: Yes, the deviated state of the parmanu is called pudgal.

Questioner: Now, for this to become sour, salty, all the different tastes that exist, they are the properties of the original Pudgal, aren’t they? But only the pudgal that has deviated from its inherent nature can have such properties!

Dadashri: They are definitely the properties of the Parmanu. However, this that is being experienced is of the ones that have deviated from their inherent nature.

Questioner: Meaning that, even those [Parmanu] which have not deviated from their inherent nature definitely have these properties too?

Dadashri: Yes.

Questioner: But are there any such Parmanu in the world that have formed without the presence of the Self? The deviation from the inherent nature means these ones that are sour, salty...

Dadashri: Even if they have not deviated from their inherent nature, they still exist.

Questioner: But these properties are even present in them too, aren’t they?

Dadashri: Yes, properties such as sourness and saltiness are present [in them].

Questioner: The Parmanu that are in the pure form, the ones which have not deviated from their inherent nature in any way whatsoever; can such pure Parmanu exist in this world, or have all the parmanu deviated from their inherent nature?

Dadashri: No, for the most part, they are pure indeed!

Questioner: Now, do those pure Parmanu have the properties of sourness, saltiness?

Dadashri: They have all of the original properties. They have all eight properties of tactility in them. If some of them come together, then they become coarse, they change in one way or another.

Questioner: So does that happen without the presence of the Self?

Dadashri: Yes, so the ones that have deviated from their inherent nature are different, and the ones in their original nature (nirvikaari) are different. The latter has inherently natural properties (swabhaavik guna). It is from these inherently natural properties that these properties that have deviated from their inherent nature (vikaari guna) arise.

Questioner: Is it only if the inherently natural ones are present that the ones that have deviated from their inherent nature can arise? These properties that have deviated from their inherent nature cannot arise without the presence of the Self. So what instrumental role does the presence of the Self play in them deviating from their inherent nature?

Dadashri: In the presence of the sun, power gets filled in the solar cells, doesn’t it?

Questioner: Yes, solar power.

Dadashri: Does the sun know anything about that?

Questioner: The sun does not know about that.

Dadashri: It all happens through its presence. The illumination itself is at work.

Questioner: Yes, so in the same way, the illumination of the Self must also be helping in some way in that, right?

Dadashri: It does, the illumination itself is at work. Don’t ‘we’ say that the Self, God, does not ‘do’ anything; It simply gives illumination to every living being.

Questioner: But to give illumination is one thing, and...

Dadashri: ‘We’ simply say that It gives illumination, but the truth is, the illumination emanates, and that [the aham; the ‘I’] acquires it, by being in close proximity.

Questioner: I didn’t quite understand that.

Dadashri: Is it as though the sun is generating it [the power in the solar cell]?

Questioner: It is illuminating by its inherent nature. The Parmanu are in their inherent nature, they exist in the pure phase (vishrasa). Similarly, God is naturally illuminating, so then, who is in the middle that is making them deviate from their inherent nature?

Dadashri: The one who is looking for moksha. The one who is bound.

Questioner: So does its Real form fall under the division of the illumination? The one who is bound, whose side is he on? Is he on the side of the illumination or on the side of these parmanu?

Dadashri: On the side of the parmanu.

Questioner: Is he made up of parmanu?

Dadashri: He is made of parmanu. He is the deviated form of the parmanu.

Questioner: Who is that, Dada?

Dadashri: The ego (ahamkaar) and the ‘my-ness’ (mamata). The one who is bound is trying to become free.

Questioner: So fundamentally, it is simply the ego, isn’t it?

Dadashri: He likes being bound. Despite going through so much misery, he likes being bound.

Questioner: Dada, how does the ego work in making a neem tree bitter, in making the coconuts fill up with water? For the neem tree to become bitter, how is the ego involved in generating the bitterness?