Avt018 ts vid013 dispatches transcript v1

DISPATCHES: POLICE’S DIRTY SECRET Title of Program: Dispatches: The Police’s Dirty Secret Duration: 47 minutes Source: http://vimeo.com/69093606 Synopsis: Through the personal testimony of a former Special Demonstration Squad (SDS) officer, a joint investigation by Channel 4 Dispatches and The Guardian examines the ethically dubious tactics of a clandestine unit within the Metropolitan police and reveals the names of high-profile targets.

Peter Francis, who spent four years living undercover, is the first officer from the Metropolitan Police's SDS to publicly speak out.

His testimony includes allegations that SDS undercover police officers were asked to look for intelligence that could be used to discredit the family of murdered teenager Stephen Lawrence and their campaign.

Stephen Lawrence's mother, Doreen, and former Home Secretary Jack Straw both speak of their shock at hearing about the allegations.

Transcribed by: Jessi Gutch, 07512204384, jessicagutch@hotmail.co.uk Date finished: 16/12/13 KEY PF = Peter Francis PL = Paul Lewis HS = Helen Steel NL = Neville Lawrence DL = Doreen Lawrence N = TV News Reporter JS = Jack Straw J = Jackie PC = Paul Condon BH = Belinda Harvey P = Protesters A = Actor MC = Mick Creedon

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PL: Tonight, an undercover cop reveals all about Britain’s Police Spies

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PF: It’s unbelievable this is happening in England

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PF: The word Stasi springs to mind PL: For decades, undercover agents have infiltrated political campaigns and protest groups JS: I would be interested in, you know, how far up the chain of authority this misdirection, perversion of police resources, and priorities and principles actually went PL: We hear exclusively from women who had sexual relationships with men they didn’t know were police J: I’ve been raped by the state. That’s how we all feel. We all feel that we were

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sexually abused PL: And we can now reveal who these spies were really targeting PL: Did your supervisors want intelligence on members of Stephen’s family?

PF: They wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign, yes DL: We’re constantly having to have suspicion around our police force when they’re supposed to be upholding the law PL: October 1993. An anti racist demonstration against the BNP. Hidden deep amongst the protestors is an undercover police spy PL: 20 years later he’s revealing his true identity for the first time to lift the lid on Britain’s secret police PL: I’ve spent two years investigating the units that he and an estimated 130 other undercover officers have worked for PL: Peter Francis was recruited to a top-secret special branch division called the Special Demonstration Squad or SDS PL: His unit would meet at this pub in West London PL: So, do you recognise it?

PF: Yeah, er, yeah, enough because the whole sort of structure of the building hasn’t changed, but it was a lot- it certainly wasn’t decorated this way when we were here, we had, um, many a drinks in here with, er, fellow SDS officers PL: Shall we get a drink? Yeah, yeah. What do you fancy?

PL: Peter graduated top of his class from the Metropolitan Police Training School in 1986 PL: Seven years later he joined the SDS

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PL: The unit was then made up of 10 undercover police spies and a couple of managers PL: Few outside the squad knew of its existence.

PF: It was a secret unit within the special branch who are the secret police, so who knew about this, it’s not rogue, it’s just very well hidden PF: The day one that you actually start your police identity is taken off you… You actually give away your warrant card, and anything to do with the police, your association with the police, is just wiped off the earth PL: Peter’s first task was to adopt credible cover

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PF: We’re heading towards Islington now where my first undercover flat was

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PF: The importance of a good undercover flat just cant be over-emphasised because you’re taking all your targets, er, back to your house, they’re gonna go in there, they’re gonna see in there, they’re gonna see how you live PL: Peter was an exemplary office awarded a commendation for his service

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PL: He was married with children but committed himself to a four year undercover posting, only seeing his family one night a week PF: Yeah so basically if you look at it as vastly changed, this would have been my flat from September 1993 to the beginning of 19… the middle of 1996… this was my flat PL: In his undercover role Peter Francis assumed a new identity PL: He reinvented himself as Pete Black PF: We’d agreed who my pretend parents were; we’d agreed everything. I’d scripted it and my senior managers had scripted it with me. This was a script that was turning into a character and I became Pete Black PF: When I was here I would stand in front of the mirror and I would look into it and I would say I am Pete Black

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PL: The SDS’s aim was to monitor demonstrations and provide advanced intelligence on the likelihood of violent disorder by protestors PL: Each of its 10 undercover officers infiltrated campaigns and protest groups across the political spectrum from extreme left-wing to right-wing PL: Peter was initially tasked with infiltrating anarchist groups… But just weeks before his deployment in September 1993 his mission changed to spying on anti racist groups in the capital PF: The shift in my potential posting, er, that took place can be summarised in two words and that was Stephen Lawrence N: Stephen Lawrence was killed by a group of white boys on this road. They called him ‘nigger’ and stabbed him twice N: His father has called for the return of the death penalty NL: Well I think they should- I think they should bring back hanging. It’s a sentence forever PL: The April 1993 murder of Stephen Lawrence was a Watershed moment in British policing. The MET bungled the investigation and was later condemned for its institutional racism DL: When one of your children has been brutally murdered you are looking for those in power to do something about it. My son was stabbed and left to bleed to death while police officers looked on DL: They treated the affair as a gang war and from that moment on acted in a manner that could only be described as- as white masters during slavery PL: Many left-wing movements aligned themselves with the Lawrence family’s fight for justice PL: At the request of his managers, Peter joined Youth Against Racism in Europe ardent supporters of the cause PF: Extremely high management joined parallels between the Stephen Lawrence and potential a Rodney King scenario in LA where extreme violent disorder broke out on the streets of LA PF: And hands down the request from Stephen Lawrence, what was happening with the campaign, what was the likelihood of this all on the streets, if this involves the campaign, there was no campaign like it when I was out there PL: Peter rose to become a branch secretary of youth against racism in Europe PL: As he became a trusted face in the group he didn’t only collect information on demonstrations PL: Living six days a week undercover he attended meetings and befriended activists PL: And he gathered intelligence that could undermine support for those campaigning for Stephen Lawrence PF: I was also asked, the same as all other campaigns, could I find out anything else that could be used to maybe get the public to not have as much sympathy for the Stephen Lawrence campaign as in what it truly had PF: Is there anything the police could possibly use through the media to start maybe tarring the campaign?

PF: It means the amount of sympathy that that campaign can generate locally is gonna be vastly diminished PL: In the weeks after their son’s death, Doreen and Neville Lawrence complained that the police were not doing enough to catch his killers PL: Peter alleges that he and other police spies were in fact looking for intelligence that could discredit the family and the campaign PL: Did your supervisors want intelligence on members of Stephen’s family?

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PF: They wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign, yes, there is this general remit, so had I through my circles come up with something along the lines of they- the family were political activists, if someone in the family was involved in demonstrations, drug dealers, anything PF: What they would have done with the intelligence I can’t call it but that is our remit, not just for them, that is always our remit when we’re out there, we find out intelligence and then if it’s needed it will be used PL: Did you ever pick up anything about family members that you then passed back?

PF: I wasn’t successful. No SDS officer was successful in finding anything really concrete, it was just a bit of hear say tittle tattle PF: There was rumours and conjecture that the family itself may not have been, sort of, a loving, caring home that was passed on, er, about the family that, um, could have been used, may have been used, if they were really desperate to try and smear the family PL: Peter claims the MET found another way to spy on the Lawrence’s. Inside their own home PF: The family liaison officer who was in the Stephen Lawrence’s house was taking all the details of all the family members who were there, all the visitors who actually gave their details PF: This then was passed to the Area Special Branch, the Area Special Branch then passed it through the Special Branch to the Special Demonstration Squad, and we were asked to comment on these individuals, whether or not, in their words, they were politicos or what- who they were PL: So they wanted you and the other SDS officers to give them information about the political persuasion of the individuals who were visiting the family’s home?

PF: Hundred percent, because that would then allow us to make the assessment, which way this campaign was likely to go in the public disorder arena PL: There’s no suggestion the family liaison officers knew the purpose or destination of the information they collected PL: Peter states demands for intelligence came from outside the SDS PF: We only respond to external requests, so external requests that I’m not privy to would come in to say right what is known about Stephen Lawrence campaign PL: Peter doesn’t know who knew about the spy campaign but he does remember the then MET Police Commissioner visited the squad here following their undercover work on a major anti racist demonstration PF: Basically this little flat here was, er, well within normal parlance would be described as a safe house, and this is the actual flat the support, Condon, actually came out to, he presented the whole of the unit with a bottle of whisky as well PL: And that was to say thank you?

PF: That was to say thank you, yeah, and that’s as a unit who met behind that very door, er, said this is going to happen, this is the police resources you need, Commissioner thanked us for having the accurate assessment PL: What’s not known is if the former MET Commissioner was aware that the SDS were gathering intelligence on the Lawrence family that could be used to smear them PL: So Dispatches asked him. He said A: I cannot rule out a meeting with special branch officers but I have no recollection of any meeting A: I am certain that in my time as Commissioner I never authorised, condoned or was aware of the alleged activities of Peter Francis or any other officer being

allegedly tasked to seek intelligence to discredit Mr and Mrs Lawrence 12:45

PL: After the break we tell Doreen Lawrence that the police spied on her

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DL: Out of all the things I’ve found out over the years this certainly has topped it ADVERTISING BREAK

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PL: Dispatches is exposing shocking revelations about Britain’s secret police

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PL: Peter Francis, a former undercover police officer turned whistle blower, is revealing the inner workings of the Special Demonstration Squad PF: It scares me what’s potentially been going on. It’s been described as morally repugnant. Unbelievable this is happening in England PL: According to Peter, his deployment as a police spy was shaped by the murder of Stephen Lawrence PL: In the months after the teenager was killed, the Metropolitan Police came under sustained criticism for incompetence and racism PL: His grieving mother Doreen spent the following years campaigning for justice

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DL: I don’t see how the Metropolitan Police is going to move on from today. Without admitting to what has been going on, there is no way they can move forward PL: According to Peter, what Doreen didn’t know was that, while the MET were supposed to be catching Stephen’s killers, they were also secretly collecting intelligence that could be used to smear her family and the campaign PF: Had I through my circles come up with something along the lines of they- the family were political activists, if someone in the family was involved in demonstrations, drug dealers, anything. What they would have done with the intelligence I can’t call it PL: How does it feel to see that there was orchestrated effort to discredit the campaign and possibly also the family- individual members of the family?

DL: I suppose it just makes me really, really angry that all of this has been going on and all the time trying to undermine us as a family DL: Quite shocked that in- back in that time during our time of grieving for our son that there was somebody sitting somewhere calculating, infiltrating, into our family DL: Out of all the things I’ve found out over the years this certainly has topped it PL: Did it occur to you at the time that the reason they wanted to know who was visiting your house was to figure out the political persuasion of those individuals?

DL: We weren’t linked to any political groups, you know, we weren’t linked to any of them so at the time we would have had no idea as to the reason why they were asking questions or why they were suspicious of anybody who was in our house DL: Um, political groups, no, nothing can justify trying to discredit the family and people around us PL: Peter Francis says the Lawrence’s couldn’t be discredited but this man was.

Duwayne Brooks was with Stephen on the night of his murder and witnessed the attack PF: We did start to look at Duwayne to see if there’s a possible way that we can then, smear’s the best way, the campaign- the campaign by a different direction PL: Just a month after Stephen’s death, an anti racist demonstration outside South East London BNP Headquarters turned violent PL: Peter Francis picked up intelligence that Duwayne Brooks may have been involved. He watered the information back to his superiors and was asked to dig further PF: Myself and another SDS officer went through the material we had, the media we had, and, between us, we’d identified him participating in some criminality-

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PF: This then was sent through the same chain of command - Special Branch, DI, DCI, out to Division again, and the decision was obviously made to go and arrest Duwayne for said offences PL: Did they seem pleased that you’d found out?

PF: Yes, yes, they did seem pleased that we’d found out. I think also it provided probably the first in ever in the Stephen Lawrence campaign PF: This is a clear whiter than white campaign, cant be tarnished, the public’s all behind it. All of a sudden Stephen Lawrence’s friend was actually a violent activist PL: A month after Peter says he placed Duwayne Brooks at the demonstration, Duwayne was charged with criminal damage and violent disorder PL: The case was dismissed as an abusive process PL: In the years after his death, Stephen Lawrence’s parents and supporters carried on campaigning DL: It’s four years on since my son’s been murdered, and what we want out of this is to find out the truth of exactly what went on that night, and the only way we’re gonna get the truth is by having a judicial inquiry P: What do we want? Sack Condon! When do we want it? Now! What do we want?

Sack Condon! When do we want it? Now! PL: In 1997, allegations of police racism persisted, all denied by then Commissioner of the police, Paul Condon PC: The facts and the independent facts don’t support that assertion. Our success rate in dealing with racially motivated crime is as good, if not better than, for dealing with general crime PL: However the following year a judicial inquiry led by Sir William Macpherson was launched PL: Its aim was to find out what went wrong in the police investigation and, in February 1999, the findings were published ?: Investigation was marred by a combination of professional incompetence, by institutional racism, and by a failure of leadership by senior officers PL: The far-reaching consequences of the Macpherson report crucially did not touch on undercover policing tactics.

PL: Peter Francis claims vital information was held back from the enquiry, despite his attempts at the time to make special branch come clean PF: So when I actually informed them, er, it went first to the DI Robert Langdet (?), it then went to Superintendent in Special Branches responsible for the overall decisions, it actually then went up to Command of Special Branch who came out to see me PF: It can be encapsulated roughly along the following lines is if the public was to find out you were undercover there, they’d still be battling on the streets in about a year to come, so our whole idea is to prevent disorder, if we go in there and say we were undercover in there, it will reignite disorder that hadn’t taken place with Lawrence in quite a while PL: And what was the reaction when- the end of the inquiry- no mention of the SDS? PF: Absolute total relief that no- there was nothing in the Macpherson Inquiry that tainted the Special Branch at all. We were totally clear of everything despite obviously what I was aware of that we’d been doing JS: I think there is a very strong case for this particular, er, undercover operation to be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

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JS: That senior officers in Scotland Yard considered whether they should disclose the fact of this undercover operation to the Macpherson Inquiry and they decided not to do so, that’s very serous indeed, and it places this undercover operation into a different and separate category from the others PL: In response to these allegations the former Commissioner Paul Condon told Dispatches A: I never authorised, condoned, or was aware of Peter Francis or any other officer being allegedly tasked to seek intelligence to discredit Dwayne Brooks A: Nor was I aware or would I have authorised or condoned any withholding of information of any kind from the Judicial Inquiry which became known as the Macpherson Inquiry A: Such action if it took place would have been clearly wrong and in direct contravention of my instructions to the Metropolitan Police to cooperate fully with the Inquiry PL: After the break we examine how police used sex as a tactic and we speak exclusively to a woman who had a relationship and a child with a man she didn’t know was a police officer J: I just feel I’ve been abused. I feel I’ve been abused. I feel I’ve been multiple raped and I just- I want- I want it all to go away ADVERTISING BREAK PL: Dispatches is investigating Britain’s police spies. Peter Francis is an undercover agent turned whistle blower. He’s opening the lid on a secret Special Branch unit that infiltrated activist groups PL: My colleague Rob Evans and I have authored a book on the spies BL: Since 9/11, its become commonplace for Muslims to be violently attacked in Britain PL: Meet Doctor Bob Lambert, an academic on Terrorism Studies, seen here speaking at a conference to promote anti-racism and multi-culturalism PL: Bob is also a former undercover police agent and was Peter’s boss PL: At this event his secret past caught up with him when he was confronted by activists he had duped HS: People didn’t know who he really was. I thought it was an outrage he should be speaking there when he’s done so much to try and undermine, you know, movements for social justice HS: We talked about it and we decided we should expose him at this conference

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HS: Bob we’d like to talk to you about your infiltration of London Greenpeace and your abuse of the female campaigners HS: He was stonewalling us. He was just saying nothing. He started trying to walk away swiftly and at one point he was even running Unclear?

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HS: He didn’t like being challenged about his past

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PL: Thirty years earlier Bob Lambert met a young activist called Jackie. She has never before spoken publicly about him J: First time I met Bob was outside Hackney Town Hall J: He lived in Highgate and he said he worked by doing bits and pieces, bit of landscape gardening, bit of tree surgery, is how he described it J: Said he was a committed anarchist, could see he was a bit older, quite a bit older then me, but he was very charming, very charming. It was only after a couple of

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meetings I suppose I was smitten 23:45

PL: Jackie knew Bob Lambert as Bob Robinson, his cover name

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PL: He’d been tasked with infiltrating a variety of activist groups including the Animal Liberation Front PL: In the mid 1980s the organisation used letter and fire bombs to target the vivisection meat and fur trades PL: But Jackie says she was very much on the periphery J: When I look back now, the whole idea, the purpose, was to introduce him, so even if someone doubted him they’d say but he’s going out with Jackie, we know she’s alright J: That’s the van. Used to get about 20 activists in the back of that van. You can see the cushions in the back, that’s for people to sit on J: What he started to do is, well more or less straight away really, is he would drop everyone else off first so that eventually there was just me and him in the van and once we’d started a relationship I was promoted to the seat next to him PL: Just a few years after Jackie was involved in a relationship with one undercover police officer activist, Helen Steel was being pursued by another HS: I became involved in animal rights movement and around about 1987 I started going to London Greenpeace meetings, that was- London Greenpeace was campaigning on environmental and social justice issues. They believed in do-ityourself politics and I think it was not long after that that actually this guy John turned up HS: His name was John Barker. He had a van and he used to offer to drive people home after the meetings, which, at the time, seemed like a very helpful, er, thing to do but actually is a very effective way of finding out where everybody lives HS: I was usually the last person to be dropped off and then over time we just became closer and we started an intimate relationship HS: John talked to me about how he really loved me and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me, um, you know, we talked about- over time we talked about having children together, um, living together, forever HS: I really felt I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him and I was really pleased to have found somebody who wanted that kind of relationship and seemed to care about me PL: Jackie and Bob’s relationship also quickly became serious PL: Despite Bob having a wife and two children in his real life

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J: I made no secret of the fact that I really wanted a baby and his first reaction was… no J: We didn’t talk about having a baby or anything probably for a couple more months and then I kind of said to him that I didn’t know whether me and him had a future if he never wanted children, and during one of these conversations he said okay then, we’ll give it a go, we’ll give it a try, and I said, you know, this is- this is proper commitment, and he said yeah, and I got pregnant first month we properly tried PL: Bob Lambert went on to become Peter Francis’s manager. When he was deployed in the 1990s. He advised his team on how to handle relationships when undercover PF: There was a couple of provisos come advice. One was make sure you use a condom and we were actually given an example by Bob Lambert because he referred to another officer who was allegedly tricked into having a child when he was deployed and the other one was that you shouldn’t fall in love

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PL: In late 1985 Bob and Jackie’s son was born

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J: Bob was there. He was, you know, holding my hand, willing me to push, um, you know, just being what you would expect really, excited, and when I had my child he- he asked if he could cut the cord J: He held him and then he kind of said to me well done and kissed me and told me how much he loved me PL: Just a few months after their sons birth, the relationship began to sour

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J: I was absolutely overwhelmed with motherhood and I cut back on doing all the animal stuff and I think looking back now that’s when I was no longer any use to him J: More and more he was spending time away from me and he would say he was working or he was on direct action J: I assumed that he was sleeping with other women

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PL: Bob had began another liaison and it wasn’t a casual fling

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BH: When I was 24- when I first met Bob and straight away I felt like it was something really special and it was a very passionate and romantic relationship. It was- very quickly escalated to where we were seeing each other all the time, um, really within a few weeks we were an established couple, and he was introduced to my parents as my prospective life partner, and my parents accepted him as such, and he did nothing to make anyone think any differently PL: Belinda Harvey was an unlikely target by an SDS spy. She wasn’t a political activist and was employed by the local electricity board BH: None of my friends were doing anything remotely of any interest to the police and so it’s a complete mystery why he chose to have a relationship with me BH: I’m horrified to look back now and think possibly he was just using me for sex really to meet his own needs PL: Bob knew the relationship wouldn’t last

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PL: In 1988, his tour of duty was coming to an end, and he needed to extricate himself from his undercover life PF: If an SDS officer has set the trail correctly, by the time he comes to leave, be it four, five, X amount of years later, his targets come friends should be aware that he’s always wanted to wander. There’s a yearning to wander but there’s some sort of mental instability upset thing which explains why that person that they care about, some even maybe love unfortunately, that they actually cant go with that person J: He seemed like he was on the edge of a breakdown BH: He said that the police were catching up with him now and he needed to go he needed to disappear J: He said I know some anarchists in Spain he said who can help me out BH: Then we came up with this plan where I was going to come out to Spain after he’d got settled out there J: And he said I promise you that when things settle down I’ll write to you and, when it’s safe to do so, you can bring our son to Spain PL: Bob didn’t go to Spain PL: He was back at Special Branch and living in his family home with his wife and kids

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PL: A few years later John Barker disappeared from Helen’s life

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HS: In total I spent 18 years searching for him and in the end I only found out because the ex partner of another police spy told me BH: You hear about people having their phones hacked. Well that’s nothing compared to what happened to me and what happened to us, absolutely nothing.

It’s like our bodies were hacked. It’s just unforgivable J: For my body to be used to gain intelligence on a protest group, yeah I feel likewell I was raped multiple times wasn’t I? It’s like being raped by the state, and I just want it- want it all to go away and it doesn’t. It doesn’t go away and the thing is I’m going to have Bob Lambert in my life for a long time ‘cause he’s the father of my son PL: Did you have sexual relations with activists you were spying on?

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PF: Casual relationships, yes I did

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PL: Casual relationships of a sexual nature?

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PF: Yes, yeah

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PL: How did you justify that to yourself?

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PF: It was part of my persona that I was a person who had casual sex as part of my character PL: How many times did you have casual sexual relationships?

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PF: Twice

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PL: Twice?

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PF: Yes

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PL: Given the women that you were having sex with didn’t know you were an undercover police officer, do you think they gave you their fair minded consent?

PF: I would say that if you were having sex with a target they probably wouldn’t ever have had it with you if they’d known you were a police officer PL: So, those women who had sex with you when you were undercover, they didn’t give their informed consent ‘cause they didn’t know you were a police officer?

PF: I’d never considered that before. I’d never considered that at all before, so yeah, if in the event if they didn’t like the police they wouldn’t be consenting, yeah, they probably wouldn’t have given their consent PF: I think morally it’s not justifiable but why I may feel slightly less morally bad about it is the fact that I only had fleeting casual relationships PF: I certainly never had a child with anybody, I never told anybody I loved them, I never told anybody I’d be there forever with them, I certainly didn’t live with people.

They’re levels that really can (?) anybody possibly justify doing that to these poor women HS: I think the whole thing really destroys your sense of trust because it makes you really question about whether, if someone can act that well, can you-can you believe what is going on in front of you now. It makes it very, very hard to form kind of close and loving relationships PL: Bob Lambert told Dispatches A: The work of an undercover officer is complex, dangerous and sensitive and it

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would take some considerable time and the co-operation of my former police employers, to provide the full background, context and detail necessary to address the matters which have been raised PL: Coming up, Helen and Belinda meet Peter and for the first time get some answers to their questions ADVERTISING BREAK PL: Dispatches is investigating allegations that police spied on campaign and protest groups and used sex as a cover tactic PL: Helen Steel was duped into a two year relationship with an undercover officer John Dynes(?)

PL: After he suddenly disappeared she tried to track him down. She visited the registry of births marriages and deaths HS: I suddenly had this instinct to go in there and look through the death records

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HS: I started from the year of the birth of the John Barker that I had known and when I got to 8 years old there was-there was a record of a death of a child that that seemed to match John’s details HS: When I read the certificate I realised that my partner had been using the identity of a dead child PF: When I arrived on the Special Demonstration Squad, the DCI in the charge at the time went over how you create the undercover identity and it was said, totally matter of factly, as, in this is what happens, we go along to the birth death registers, and we resurrect a dead child for the purposes of using it in the SDS PL: Why did the SDS use these children’s identities instead of just kind of creating fictional personas?

PF: It was deemed that it gave you a level of cover that your targets, if they were sort of not satisfied with you, can actually go along, pull out your birth certificate, to establish you’re a real person PL: Did you think about the child’s parents?

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PF: Hand on my heart I didn’t think a lot about the parents then

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PF: At the time the SDS did it, I was expected to do it, if I didn’t do it there’s one route and that’s straight back to Special Branch. It was the only route I was optioned PL: The use of this tactic was widespread but the police have so far not told any families affected PL: Dispatches has informed the family’s of two dead children who’s identities were used by the SDS. Both were too upset to take part in this film PL: In 2008 the SDS closed its doors but its work continues in the form of the National Public Order Intelligence Unit PL: Accusations of undercover officers engaging in sexual relationships have persisted PL: Mark Jenner who infiltrated left wing groups posing as Mark Cassidy reportedly lived with an activist girlfriend for four years PL: Jim Boyling(?) is said to have had two serious relationships in his time undercover PL: Mark O’Jacobs, who posed as an anarchist, allegedly had two unsuspecting girlfriends before he disappeared in 2009 PL: And Mark Kennedy, outed as a police spy in 2010, had several relationships with women all over Europe, the longest lasting six years

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PL: In total 10 undercover officers have been identified. Of those it’s alleged that 9 had sexual relationships with the people they were spying on PL: So far the Metropolitan Police has declined to explain why women were targeted in undercover operations PL: Now Helen Steel and Belinda Harvey have the chance to question an ex police spy PL: Whistle blower Peter Francis is the first ever undercover police officer to agree to give them some answers PL: So have a sit down BH: I just would be interested to hear, you know, why you decided to speak up after all this time against the undercover deployments PF: What I’m trying to do is basically call for a judicial inquiry, a public inquiry, and I think my ability to explain very clearly from an insider’s perspective exactly what was going on I think will add weight to getting a public inquiry HS: Were you told not to live in people’s houses-in other people’s houses-in activists’s houses?

PF: No I could live in an activist’s house if I wanted to HS: Right. But they didn’t-they didn’t say to you that that’s off limits because, you know, if you were gonna search somebody’s house, for example, you would have to get a search warrant. They didn’t kind of say look, hang on, you cant move into people’s homes because that’s too intrusive PF: Absolutely not and it would have been I’ve gotta move in with such and such because my role justifies it BH: One thing I would like to know if it was just by chance that, um, he got together with me or if I was actually specifically picked PF: The clear answer to that is unless you’re an activist, no. If he had a single thought that you might be he could justify being with you on a relationship basis BH: Helen and I and six other women are bringing a case action against the police for, um, psychological damage we feel has been done to all of us, and I was just wondering if you would be prepared to give evidence, um, against the police in such a case PF: Yes totally, I would get up in a witness box and swear an oath. Absolutely everything I’ve said here I think anybody and everybody would say this is not justifiable PL: After leaving the MET in 2001, Peter Francis brought his own case against his former employers PL: He received damages after being diagnosed with post traumatic stress and an identity disorder PF: Who I am in my real life I’ve honestly not got a clue. My character’s called Pete Black and I was anti fascist and he’s the person sitting in front of you here. I said goodbye a long, long time ago to who I really was. I’ve got divorced since then. I’ve lost pretty much everything HS: It’s been pretty difficult, kind of, basically hearing just how little regard the SDS squad and Special Branch have for people’s lives. They’re ruining our lives and basically for what? Just so that they can prevent change from happening in this world PL: No less than 16 reviews and inquiries have been launched into allegations of misconduct by undercover police PL: The largest is Operation Herne

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MC: Clearly there’s been close relationships which, in some occasions, have ended up being sexual. It shouldn’t have happened but it did happen and part of my investigation in Herne is to look into that PL: Are you in a position to offer an apology to the women who were duped into have sexual relationships with police officers?

MC: I don’t think it’s as simple as a straight-forward apology, um, clearly I’ve made it very straight-forward we would not sanction, we would not authorise intimate sexual contact PL: We’ve spoken to an undercover police officer who says his senior officer, the person running the unit, authorised it, sanctioned it, in fact he told him he was going to have sex which he would be expected to, to wear a condom. That doesn’t sound like it wasn’t authorised MC: Um, I am speaking about the world in which I know, in which I operate it, would never be preauthorised. If that is the case I find it quite staggering PL: Peter Francis says he feels guilty now that he was involved in this operation that wasn’t monitoring subversives, it was smearing, and at the time the Metropolitan Police should have been trying to catch Stephen Lawrence’s killers, they were monitoring members of the family and smearing the main witness MC: I need to see that and understand that but hypothetically-hypothetically, er, if that is the case it’s clearly not something that would sit comfortably with any police officer PL: Doreen Lawrence, Stephen’s mother, um, is understandably angry over this.

Can you give her an assurance that this will be investigated?

MC: Um 100 percent. Absolute 100 percent. It is part of Operation Herne to look at the deployments, to understand the deployments, and if indeed there are things in those deployments that need investigating beyond just the knowledge into potential culpability, potential wrongdoings, I will go there PL: Further to this interview the Metropolitan Police said A: The MPS recognises the seriousness of the allegations of inappropriate behaviour and practices involving past undercover deployments. The claims in relation to Stephen Lawrence’s family will bring particular upset to them and we share their concerns A: A thorough review and investigation into these matters is being supervised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, and it would be inappropriate to pre-judge its findings A: The MPS must balance the genuine public interest with its duty to protect officers and former officers. We are therefore not prepared to confirm nor deny the identity of individuals nor deployment on specific operations A: At some point it will fall upon this generation of police leaders to account for the activities of our predecessors, but for the moment we must focus on getting the truth PL: Today the Prime Minister called for an immediate investigation PF: Surely the public- they’ve not got a right to decide what form of policing they want?

PL: Police spies continue to operate in protests groups to this day PF: I’m prepared to fully open up and say this is what I done and I think this should be regard as a calling for other SDS officers, other people, to come forward PL: Peter Francis, who has not been paid for his participation in this film, believes there are more secrets to come

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PF: Hillsborough has just demonstrated that the police, no matter how much they collude together, the truth will catch up with them