09 09 20 High Fashion Talks Simon Ungless

High Fashion September 09, 2020 “Simon Ungless- McQueen collaborator on the pandemic shift” In the interview Simon discusses his work during the epidemic and the fashion industry today. https://highfashiontalk.com/simon-ungless-mcqueencollaborator-on-the-pandemic-shift/

Simon Ungless is part of fashion history. Being Lee Alexander McQueen’s right hand man during the legendary early days of the designer’s work and the brand, well known in the London Central Saint Martins scene and establishing a prestigious fashion school the other side of the pond; his contribution to the fashion industry and community is immeasurable.

During the tail end of the pandemic, we talk to him about what he’s been up to and the fashion industry today and get to further understand his role as Executive Director of the School of Fashion, Academy of Art University, San Francisco.

Ryan Lowe: How has the pandemic affected you; what has it meant for your students, your work, and the way you go about your life?

Simon Ungless: I think the pandemic is having much deeper, and much more long term effect than I initially thought, when it first kicked off and it was halfway through the semester, I had to carry on regardless and make everything good for the students. Transition to online, which we’re lucky, we

have all our courses written completely online, it’s not like we just go into Zoom. Everything is there for them. We have a really strong online program.

I find it’s important to me, to stay connected to my own creativity and doing work and also to the industry, my work is one of my channels into the industry. I have to have that, to stay current in teaching. What can you offer your students, if you aren’t doing it?

The first couple of months, it was like, not even thinking, it was sort of on autopilot to make things good, great things happening, I reconnected with McQueen through Sarah. Did some stuff with them, and it felt very positive. Then bang, the semester is out and reality starts to set in that we’re going to do Summer the same way and now we’re going to do Fall the same way. Speaking for myself and also for a lot of educators around the world… we are expected to continue to teach, to make everything good with our jobs and the students.

To say I feel comfortable with this situation moving forward, I’m not, honestly, I’m not. I’m working two days a week, safely on campus with a group of senior students that are finishing up their collection. It’s nice to be back in that environment. Group of amazing designers, they deserve to succeed, they deserve to have every opportunity, they’ve worked so hard through the pandemic… & at the moment, I’m quite terrified, the cases are going up in the county I live in. The reality that this could be our reality for several semesters to come… Is really fucking pissing me off.

RL: You were saying last year that the dynamic of how students leave education after graduating and the expectations of them are broken. Have the worldwide lockdowns disrupted that system?

For the better or worse?

SU: I think any kind of breakdown of the facade of what education is and what the reality of the transition from education to the industry, any breakdown of that for me is positive. To bring any kind of reality to it. Fashion schools around the world now work on the same system of education, and it’s all based on what worked in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, but that system/industry has changed. Everybody works on this thing called a senior collection, 6-8 outfits, and the school has a show. San Francisco and New York Fashion Week.

It’s not about launching people’s career into the industry… so when I graduated in 1992 from Saint Martins. We had a show in London Fashion Week, and when I got home, I had three messages on my answerphone of work opportunities, the next day I called those people back and I started working and I’ve not stopped working since then; so that show worked.

Look at what happened to McQueen, to me, the other classmates that we showed with, Wakako Kishimoto who is now with Eley Kishimoto, Elisa Palomino going to work for John at Dior, the shows were a gateway into the industry… these shows have now become a marketing tool for the schools to get more students. The industry is so big and busy and they’re not even looking for new talent.

They’re on Instagram stealing people’s work rather than hiring talent. I think any breakdown of that system is good, and I’ve been talking about that for years, but to be pressured into keep having shows/collections, the curriculum the same, the outcome is the same, the outcome is broken, the outcome doesn’t work for the designer. If I spent $100k on something and the outcome didn’t

work for me. I’d be pissed. But the designer/students are addicted to the fame and the glory of the show. They want it, but the pandemic proved to me that it doesn’t last that long. A lot of the students were disappointed to hear they wouldn’t be having a show, however a lot of them stepped up because they understood the skill set and the assets that they walked away with were so much greater than that two minutes on the runway. The students who have done that are doing amazingly well considering we are in the middle of a pandemic, but I don’t feel having 190,000 people die in the US, was necessary to change in the fashion cycle and the industry, it’s not justifiable, what good can come from that many people dying?

RL: You’ve been in fashion education for a great part of your career; back in your days at Central Saint Martin’s what was the goal for students graduating? What changed over the years and why did that change?

SU: I think when we were at St. Martins we were all focused on going into the industry and getting our careers started. I don’t think any of us had a real clear goal for launching collections, I don’t think any of us would have considered that but when we graduated in 1992, we were in yet another recession, in terms of fashion, there weren’t jobs anywhere, we had to make our way by doing freelance where we could get it and also doing your own thing, and that’s how McQueen started, it wasn’t consciously done, it wasn’t ‘hey we’re gonna build a brand.’ It was an extension of what we did anyway. Work together, make things, print something, make something, go out for a night, make something to wear out.

It wasn’t necessarily about starting our own thing; I think what has changed is that there is so much more opportunity, the industry is so much bigger. Communication is so much greater, the students now know what their possibilities are. For us, at the academy, there is so much more industry in our building throughout the year doing competitions and internships and scholarships. Students have a lot more connection/interaction. Many of our students are set up before they graduate. I think that’s a big difference. I think for most of our students the goal was to go into the industry rather than launch their brand, I think they understand that they need to find out more about how the industry works from the inside. Because there is only so much we can teach in a classroom. I tell them ‘you have to build your network, meet suppliers, meet production people, meet your contacts, while you’re working in somebody’s business and you take those contacts with you for life and they become your support for when you want to do your own thing.’ Fundamentally, the only change is people today have so much bigger access to the industry than from when we graduated…

RL: When you moved to San Francisco, you didn’t want to recreate CSM, was the goal there different for graduating students?

SU: I think most people who work in education and have a connection in fashion know that the British schools have turned out some of the best designers, and if you’re in America and you look at the fashion industry especially throughout the late 80s, 90s, early 2000s most people working in design would have been trained in the U.K. The Academy here when they were looking at building this fashion program they knew they had to recruit some European talent to build out the curriculum, they understood European curriculum for fashion design was (in their eyes) far superior to America, and they wanted that. So me and my friend Ike Rust, who was at Calvin Klein, a British guy, we were given the direction that they wanted to create a Western St. Martins and we both said its impossible. St Martins works because of where it is and who it attracts, and we both know that because we went there. We had an opportunity to create something in California, something new and unique taking all the same philosophy applying it to a different mindset, and that’s what we did.

RL: Are you hopeful for students today and the world they are going out into?

SU: Yes, I am very hopeful. I meet my students via social media nowadays. Avory, he just finished his first year, he sent me one of his final projects from his drawing class and I loved it, I love his work, his drawing is strong. When I find talent like that in our program, I’m very hopeful. Young people that are so passionate about what they do in fashion, and so willing to learn, learn to draw, learn about color, learn about fabric, learn the foundations and then go into their major classes. I’m very hopeful. Very hopeful with this group of graduate students; their work is blowing my brains out on a daily basis. I know that we are going to work together and find different ways to show the world their work. A few weeks ago we had a presentation of the midway point work in a zoom meeting. Suzy Menkes joined the zoom, Sarah Mower, Andre Walker, so another thing is this pandemic has offered the opportunity to meet people that I could never bring to San Francisco for that kind of critique.

RL: When you graduated it seems that designers were allowed to just develop their work naturally, which you and McQueen did living together. Graduates aren’t afforded that today.

Even though you were, according to what I read; broke, did you enjoy that liberation? How do you think it helped you as a designer/creative?

SU: Well, the first thing is we didn’t get funding to go to school. For graduate school, I didn’t get any type of funding, neither did McQueen but we were able to work, we were freelancing. I think we both left school without any debt, we didn’t have any student loans, that kind of cloud of repayment wasn’t over our heads. Student loans didn’t exist back then. The pressure isn’t there so you don’t have to do anything and everything to get that income coming in. A lot of that work we did early on was not consciously done for any particular endpoint, it was just creative work being done because that’s what we do. So we’d be working in the backyard on a dress, or something, and I’d be printing something, we’d be dripping latex, we’d be doing all this stuff, and suddenly there’s a dress, and then suddenly there’s a new model on the scene who needs a dress to go out in or a dress for a shoot. And that dress in that model being photographed by Steven Meisel and it’s in Vogue, and then the next thing happens. Organically, it wasn’t pressurised.

RL: Do you think with the internet it may be possible to work outside of the expensive fashion capitals. This lockdown has shown us that so much more can be accomplished from home than we may have thought. Was working remotely already part of your working practice, or do you like the travel backward and forward and the personal interaction?

SU: I think remote working has been part of my life for almost 20 years. I find it very easy to live here and to participate in the world. I live in a canyon in Northern California, a redwood canyon. I can get into San Francisco in half an hour. I did that project for McQueen, for McQueen creators from here, I think for any type of work we do in our industry, whether it be a conference or this, we can communicate, and add to the world without increasing carbon footprint. Which I’m focused on, the environment, ecological things, do I need to get on an airplane to do this, if I don’t, I’m not going to get on it. If I can print in my backyard in 1993, I can certainly print in my backyard in 2020.

I don’t need to be running around mixing with people, I think any designer can do that, I don’t think you need to be in Paris, London, New York, Tokyo, or Milan to be successful.

RL: What’s fashion education going to look like for you in the next academic year?

SU: We are running classes as a hybrid situation, there is online and there is virtual. Two different things. Online is the whole class on a platform available with video and everything the students need there. Virtual is a weekly Zoom situation so we have the interaction. And then we also have studio availability, students come to the city, use the facilities whether they need a print, knitwear, footwear, etc. But it all has to be done safely, with small amounts of people, social distancing themselves. It works though, this summer we only have eight students in the building, it’s not too difficult to safely distance because it’s a big building. It’s functioning, it’s not 500 students in the building, it’s eight.

RL: I’ve read that the school has one of the most sought after fashion programs, how has that gone about in the past couple of decades?

SU: I think it’s having that support of really solid leadership of the president of our school. She trusts what we do, she’s very honest about what she knows and what she doesn’t know. We’re a very unique school with how we operate. We are a private school, and I’m part of budgeting, I see what goes into the school of fashion, therefore I know what I need to do and if I want that software for the students, I know how much that it’s going cost, the profits tare plowed straight back up into equipment and faculties. Teachers are valuable. Teachers’ expertise should be compensated for. All those things are considered in the building of that program. Having come from the industry, knowing how it works, knowing the interaction between the merchant, between the marketing person, between the planner, the designer, the textile person, the knitwear person. And then the outcome of photography and journalism, how all of that interacts because I’ve worked with all those people and we were able to create that university in our building. Everyone gets to interact, the styling students work with photographers and designers on how to pull clothes, look after clothes, shoot clothes, for a lookbook, editorial, video. And they’re working with people who do that in the industry on a day to day basis.

RL: What is it like to work on the school’s magazine?

SU: It’s collaborative, it’s a platform to foster collaboration at the school and bring all of the majors together. The photography is great, the art direction is great, it’s a great project for the students to work on, and they start to see how much work it takes to produce a publication. The last year, especially through the pandemic, we have gone much more online. This isn’t my favourite, you don’t open up a website and get a whiff of a freshly cracked open magazine. We’re now starting to build the whole concept for the next issue, which is a 25th anniversary for the school of fashion. An old student of mine just the other day shipped me a garment from New York and told me it wasn’t in the best condition because it’s 15 years old…

RL: Do you like to collect clothing?

SU: I don’t really collect… I mean I do, I’m a complete hoarder but everything I collect I know I’m going to use at some point in my work. I do believe there are enough clothes in the world that we don’t need to make any more clothes. I know enough and can do enough to change things. I’ve realised that if I want to wear it, well other people want to wear it as well. My work is very much focused on salvage. I don’t call it recycled, I don’t call it repurposed necessarily. It’s more like salvaging things, doing something to it, to make someone want to continue to wear it. I have a basement here, my partner keeps saying “why do you have a box of 19 raccoon tails?” and I don’t know but I know one day they’re going be very useful.

RL: Is it fair to say that @WhenSimonMetRalph on Instagram is a hobby?

SU: Um, I don’t necessarily think it’s a hobby, I think it’s my life. It’s a communication tool for me. I know that I get very mouthy and that WhenSimonMetRalph, I can channel some of that communication through what I’m doing creatively… If I don’t do that anything can come out of my

mouth or fingers rather. I have a lot of opinions, I find fashion is such a political arena. You can make such a statement through fashion. I think my hobby is the wildlife that I’m surrounded by.

RL: What was it like to work with Sarah Burton, while you were working at Central St. Martins?

SU: About a year after I graduated, the head of textiles called me up and asked me if I wanted to go back and be the technician for the textile area. To be honest, I didn’t want to do that job, but I wanted access to their equipment. So, I cut a deal with them. Saying I’ll come and do that but I need to be able to use print tables, the heat transfer press, and the dye facilities. I need to be able to use everything for my work for McQueen and my work. And they agreed to it. I went and did that and it was great because you have the semesters where you work with the students and it was at the time that I realised I love doing what I do, working with creative people. Working on different collections every day, it’s amazing, but then it also gave me those breaks where I was able to do my work or work for McQueen. The students would help me work on stuff for McQueen. One of my students, early on, was a guy called Sebastian Pons, a Spanish designer. He would work with me on printing, and the next thing he is working with Lee, and then first assistant, and then hired to work there before he went off to do his own thing. Sarah was a second-year student, and she asked me if I could introduce her to McQueen for an internship. For her third year, which is the internship year out of Central St. Martins, she went to work at McQueen for an internship and then went back for a job when she finished at St. Martins.

RL: Could you have predicted what’s going on in the industry? Aside from the pandemic, talking about sustainability.

SU: You know the whole sustainability thing, I was thinking about it this morning. I have a really good friend here, a woman called Lynda Grose. Who introduced me to the concepts of sustainable fashion way back in 1997, and that’s when I first started to learn about the implication the fashion industry had on the earth. I think it’s taken a long time for people to think that we’re not crazy. It took years for people to understand about organic food, but now it’s a quite normal thing. I think people are going to start looking for fashion products that come with a level of sustainability. And its sustainable practice, not sustainable perfection. It’s driving towards improvement. It’s what I do in my work and education. It’s part of the DNA in the school with sustainability, ethical design, circular design, all things we talk about. I do get a little bitter because it’s a buzzword that everyone talks about like they’re experts, and they’re absolutely not. At the same time, I’m immensely grateful that people are paying attention to it. I just wish people wouldn’t keep making as many clothes as they do, because they just sit there. Stores are filled with clothes no one wants to buy. I think the next step is to fine companies for making products that nobody wants to buy.

RL: Who are some of your favourite inspirations?

SU: A lot of them are pretty predictable; Robert Mapplethorpe, Joel-Peter Witkin. In terms of fashion, Giorgio di Sant’Angelo, Andre Walker in terms of design, Azzedine Alaïa, Thierry Mugler, Kansai Yamamoto were a huge influence on me. Fashion is important to me but I think my biggest motivator is music and women in music. People like Neneh Cherry, Grace Jones. In terms of film, it’s more like there are specific films, like Quest for Fire was a huge movie for me. I think I’m like a

predictable fashion person, things come and go for me, I like it – and then I don’t like it and vice versa.

RL: How do you deal with the industry, the fame, the people, and then just go to California to become a teacher, like a regular individual, how does that work?

SU: That initial move, from being very much in the mix. The middle of the tiny world that we thought was huge, but it was honestly very small. To come to San Francisco was amazing for me, suddenly you’re in a new world, with nobody that you know, nobody watching what you’re doing.

My behaviour became even worse. I could be out every night of the week, having as much fun as humanly possible. Like a permanent vacation. Northern California can be a permanent vacation if you want it to be. I’ve always dipped into it, I feel that the job I have is perfect for me, I can dip into shows twice a year. I have a magazine I do once a year, I love that. I’m working on collections all the time, I love that. I get to travel. I get enough of New York, I get enough of Europe and I can communicate with my friends who are in the industry through whatever mode of communication we choose.

RL: Did you take anything away from the work in the 90s with McQueen or any individual, and teach that in the classroom in some way, shape, or form?

SU: I think the work we did together in the 90s. I think all the work we did together is very basic. I don’t think it’s rocket science how it was done. What I try to teach is being relevant for the time. I had a meeting last year – a school in Europe – and I was interested to see the school and if it would be fit for me, to be back in Europe. Part of the conversation was about bringing back that time, and whatever interest I had, immediately got switched off. Why would anyone want to create the past?

I hate fashion that has too much of a historical reference. It’s when a journalist, talking to people about coming to the show, “Oh do you have the next Galliano?”, I want to say “F*ck Off”, there is no next anyone. These are people in their own right, we need to nurture them. Why would I want the next Galliano or McQueen? I think when I started at the school I did things very rapidly with the students, showing them stuff from my work to get the spark moving, to get them out of where they’ve been, and they took it and ran with it in terms of their own thing.

RL: Do you expect anything to be different when things go back to normal, students and their work, job opportunities, less work in the industry?

SU: I do expect that a lot of things are going to be different. I think there is going to have to be fewer jobs. I do think there are going to be a lot more changes for people in the industry and their businesses. There are a lot of companies that should’ve probably died already and they’re sort of hanging on for whatever reason. I think this pandemic might have just been a thing to push them over the edge and help them close down. Not that I wish people would lose their jobs. I think they’ll be new stuff that’ll come out of it, I think this is going to accelerate the consumer, the public to think in different terms. It was the consumer that changed the food industry, it wasn’t the food industry that changed because it wanted to. I think the consumer will hopefully have the lightbulb go on, and they might start to think about what they’re buying and that might drive companies into doing things differently. That’s what I hope. I think it’s the consumer that’s driven the car industry to go into hybridisation. I don’t think any car company wanted to do that. At the end of the day, we are just like cows, being farmed by Governments anyway.

RL: I appreciate and I value you so much Simon, I just want you to know that this is beyond me as far as the opportunity, I thank you.

SU: Well, I really appreciate you asking me. Thank you.

Simon Ungless can be found at @simonungless