A Conversation with the Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine

Marie Yovanovitch is the former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Armenia, and Kyrgyzstan. Her memoir Lessons from the Edge recounts her time in Ukraine and testimony during former President Trump’s 2019 impeachment. Yovanovitch discussed her family story, time in the Foreign Service, and thoughts on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

PB: Let’s start with a walk-through of your career.

MY: So, I started as a junior officer in Mogadishu, Somalia, and was responsible for administrative tasks. That’s not exactly what I thought my job would be as a diplomat, but I learned a lot. I didn’t have much support, so eventually I left for London, where I found my career.

I worked for three ambassadors, who made me realize you can be yourself and be successful, which was important because there weren’t many role models for women in the Foreign Service then. After London, I went to Washington, Moscow and Ottawa as a political officer, deputy on the Russia desk, and the War College. Then I ended up in Ukraine for the first time. After that, I went back to Washington and out again as Ambassador to Kyrgyzstan and Ambassador to Armenia, then Washington for several “alphabet soup” positions in the State Department. I thought about wrapping up my career, but in 2016 they needed an Ambassador to Ukraine, so I spent three years there before being pulled out.

PB: Your book explores your family’s story and your career as believing in America as an idea. How did that resonate with working in the Foreign Service?

MY: My parents were refugees who grew up in totalitarian countries and knew what it was like to live without freedom. When my family moved to the U.S., they raised my brother and me to appreciate how fortunate we were to live with freedom. We have responsibilities because, in a democracy, everybody has to do their part to keep that democracy thriving. I took several detours but joined the Foreign Service because of my passion for history, policy, and foreign countries. My old boss once said there’s nothing better than going to work and having the American flag in the corner of your office. That stuck with me.

PB: What are your thoughts on the current state of American democracy?

MY: I still believe we are the shining city on the hill, as Ronald Reagan said. We are still an inspiration for many countries, and certainly for people in countries of the former Soviet Union. Where do people want to come for a better life and where freedoms are protected?

It’s not Russia or China. It’s the U.S..

PB: And Ukraine’s path toward democracy?

MY: In the 90s, the referendum for independence showed the whole of Ukraine wanted independence, including the Russianspeaking parts. Through several elections, and two revolutions, it was clear Ukraine was on a trajectory toward the rule of law and Western values. That became crystal clear in 2014 during the Revolution of Dignity, which led then-President Yanukovych to flee to Russia with billions of stolen dollars. Reform is demand driven by the Ukrainian people.

PB: Let’s talk about Russia, where democratization looks bleak. Do you see anything on the horizon?

MY: Putin has shut down civil society, opposition, and the free press. It’s hard to see any tender shoots of democracy growing but never say never. History goes in cycles, and Russian history has had retrograde eras followed by assassination or other events, and then suddenly periods of reform. Unintended effects from the war might create circumstances where the Russian people can begin to move toward a more free state.

PB: There are two camps of experts on Putin. One says he became more radicalized, and the other is that Putin’s ambition was always for another Soviet Union. Which one do you fall into?

MY: I don’t think he’s changed much. He was a KGB officer. There may have been a time for things to go differently. Famously, Clinton, Bush, and Putin discussed Russia someday joining NATO. In the 1990s, we had a good partner in Russia and worked hard to bring them into the community of nations. We wanted Russia to see the benefits of the so-called international order. In the early 2000s, Putin was a new president who mostly continued that trend, and for me, there was hope even as, from the beginning, he put down his population.

PB: How do you rate the Biden administration’s support for Ukraine?

MY: The Biden administration is doing a pretty good job. A year ago, we would never have predicted how not only the U.S. but other countries supported Ukraine. [...] This is an existential fight for Ukraine. They have three choices: become Russified, killed, or spend life in a camp. None of these are acceptable to any Ukrainian I know. They will keep on fighting, and contrary to Putin’s propaganda, Ukraine has its own people, culture, and language. If Russia succeeds, it will keep going in Ukraine or further west. That’s not in our interest or the world’s, so it’s best for us to help Ukraine successfully defeat Russia in Ukraine.