Episode 6 – The Value of Innovation and Creativity Ashleigh King: Welcome to this podcast created by Newcastle University Business School, or NUBS for short. The Oxford Dictionary states that the nub of something is the central or essential point of a situation or problem. So we hope that in this series, we can help you to get to the NUBS of it. This podcast series looks at a key theme of value: the value of our creative economy; the value of our student experience; the value of our research; the value of our collaborative networks. In this series, you will meet academics, alumni, students, graduates, and professional staff of Newcastle University Business School, as they talk about what value means to them. In this episode, join your host, Ashleigh King, as she speaks with Dr. Ewan Mackenzie and Professor Jonathan Sapsed about the value of innovation and creativity in the North East of England and beyond. Dr Ewan Mackenzie is a lecturer in Work and Employment at Newcastle University Business School, while Professor Jonathan Sapsed is the Principle Investigator of Creative Fuse North East, a collaborative project between the five North East universities. Hi Jonathan. It's so lovely to have you with us in the studio today, and I'm really excited to be talking to you. I'd love to hear a little bit more about you and your background. Jonathan Sapsed: Sure. Yeah. So I'm, uh, I'm Jonathan Sapsed, I'm Professor of Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Newcastle University Business School. And I'm the Principal Investigator of the Creative Fuse North East project. Advert: Creative Fuse North East: the five North East universities collaborating to support the creative economy. Find out more at creativefusene.org.uk. Ashleigh King: Excellent, thank you so much. And Creative Fuse is a fabulous project, that's across lots of different universities. Is that correct? Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah. So the, we have the, the five main universities of the North East that are all partners in this, uh, in this project. So we're- the idea of the project is that we're interested in skillsets. So you have, um, you know, on the one hand you've got creative skillsets that are based around arts, humanities, design, and technology skillsets, particularly digital.
And so in the project, we're interested in how you combine these and looking at those businesses and those freelancers that are able to combine this to produce more innovations and better economic growth. And that's what we found in terms of the research so far. Ashleigh King: I really like to hear that because I think sometimes there's a perception that creatives and people who are very technological or logical, don't always mix. And that is a very interesting, uh, clash when actually what you're doing is fusing that knowledge together. So can you tell us a little bit about your own research and how you became involved in Creative Fuse, but also your, you know, you've worked all over the world and, and worked with creatives all over the world. So a little bit about, um, some of the research you've been able to get involved in yourself. Jonathan Sapsed: Sure yeah, so, so I mean, I did my PhD. I was, um, I was interested then in a, in what we used to call multimedia, now we tend to call digital media, and, uh, went out to Silicon Valley, which is a, as everybody knows a famous tech cluster and learned about what was happening there with venture capital and innovation and, uh, people chasing opportunities. Um, and then I got involved in looking at creative industries, particularly in, uh, in Brighton, in, on the south coast of England. And we did a project then called the Brighton Fuse, which is looking at the creative cl-cluster, in that city. And, uh, and finding a lot of this, this kind of effect of fusion producing more innovation and growth. So that was a project that had quite a bit of influence on government and so forth. And the funder, the AHRC, the Arts and Humanities Research Council, they, they then funded a project in the North East. So I moved up here to work with the people that were working with this, um, and really kind of testing out if the same kinds of industry dynamics are happening in this region, in the north of England, as opposed to just the south. Ashleigh King: Well, I think that's fascinating because there's the regional approach and then the national approach, but also with yourself, the international approach, so you've been able to work with creatives in Silicon Valley, in South Africa, and also, you know, Bristol and, the south of England, and in the north of England now. So I'm curious, are you finding in your research some of the trends, or some of the themes, that are coming up, uh, in how people think and how we create things, how we innovate, or are you finding that sometimes there's cultural differences? Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah, sure,I mean, so we do find there's, there's, there's a lot of similarity, it's- it's really interesting, yeah, when you, you get to know a new region, in a new country, that everybody's using the same language, right? And in many cases, there's a lot of support, business support, that's, that's, that's trying to do the same things with, uh, with creative businesses. Um, at the same time, I
think there's always a, an influence of place, and where you are in relation to where the centres of markets are. So, uh, I mean, in the UK, obviously there was a big difference in terms of, uh, of Brighton being close to London compared to the North East. And that was the biggest barrier that we found, with the North East firms and freelancers having that distance to where the centre of the creative economy market is in, uh, in England, which of course is, is in London. Right? So, so there's always those kinds of considerations that companies have to find ways around those kinds of, uh, of different local circumstances. Though you do find, uh, I mean, one of the things that you've, you find a lot is that creative people do cluster in, uh, in areas where there's a, there's a good quality of life. They're attracted in, for those reasons, they come for culture, they come for creative reputation. Even though, you know, they don't always necessarily take advantage of that once they're there. You have some contradictions sometimes in, uh, in the people, uh, they do a lot of networking once they-they're first in the industry, and then they might sort of die down once they're a bit more established. So there are contradictions here. And like you were saying earlier, in terms of the, that mix, and getting technical people to work with creatives, I think there's, uh... What we've found is that there's, there needs to be a reason to make that happen, right? There needs to be a project, or people working in the same business, or a festival, or a call for commissions, that gives them a reason to work together. Otherwise they're all going to revert back to their, their own sort of natural communities, if you like. So part of what we do with Creative Fuse North East is sort of mapping what's happening, to what extent, um, fusion is occurring in different sectors, um, and also trying to support it, and, uh, and help people to upgrade digitally, and progress their ideas. Ashleigh King: Absolutely, and I can see the value of that - upgrading - so much in the third sector or some of the community organizations, cultural organizations, who I know, I've seen, have worked with, uh, the Creative Fuse project, or others, where maybe they haven't always had the time to invest in technological advancements, for instance, it could be -software or just better ways of doing things, processes, but they're, they've got so much, um, activity going on that they, they want to prioritize. And then the structural things that aren't always, uh, there wasn't always time. And so that is the type of, um, thing that I've seen work really well, actually watching how people have been partnered together, uh, and, and seeing how these, um, these case studies, you know, come about. It's really exciting when you, when you get to see them. Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, so it is uneven and you do find some sectors... so in the North East, there's a, there's a lot of charities and social enterprises, you know, that we found compared to other regions. There's um, there's a lot of that kind of activity. They don't always have the resources, and as you say, the time to, to, to upgrade themselves and develop their own technology and implement uh, digitally. Um, so the project, it aims to help those as well as the more commercial sector as well.
The other one is the cultural sector, like the performance arts. So we've worked also with theatre organizations, and I think there- there you often find, you know, that they're, if they lag behind in terms of digital tech, it's partly because they're skeptical about what value that is going to add to that very direct communication they have with an audience. Right. So they're not going to do it just, just for the sake of it. They're going to do it only if they think it really enhances that very direct communication, which they're always skeptical about. So there are sometimes good reasons why businesses are a bit, um, hesitant, always to take on digital tech. Ashleigh King: Absolutely. I'm wondering, you know what you said there, are there any emerging trends that you're really excited about, as in, um, new innovations that you've spotted? So for instance, you spoke there about the theatres and how they might not necessarily always see the value of certain, certain new changes. But I'm just wondering across, across the creative sector and the work you're doing, and, um, you know, the, the different groups that you come into contact with, are you seeing any, you know, brilliant examples that you are, that really, you know, uh, excite you or you can't wait to see what happens with them or, um, any- anything like that that you'd like to share with us? Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, and I think performance arts is a good case. Um, so there, there's increasing projects that are looking at experimenting with immersive technologies and trying to reach audiences in new ways. Um, you know, which might bring in audiences that can't always get to the theatre, right? So that starts off with something as simple as streaming from the National Theatre. And there's been research to show that all the provincial audiences in the cinemas and the provinces, they actually enjoy it more than the people in the National Theatre themselves, right? Um, you know, so you start off with something simple like that, but then there's, there's now people are experimenting more with headsets, with immersive tech, with VR, that enables, you know, kids in hospitals to have experiences and, and, um, and to enjoy consuming shows that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. So I think, you know, we're starting to see, and the North East has a lot of these, these types of companies developing immersive tech. So we've, uh, we've been looking into that, and trying to, trying to encourage partnerships, and uh, consideration of y'know, what, what is possible within, uh, within the theatre space, in that way. Also coming, coming off the back of, uh, of the lockdown in the pandemic, um, obviously there, there was a lot of experimentation that went on in terms of, you know, using digital platforms and trying to reach audiences through online channels. So I think there's, there's a lot there going on. And I think, um, as I say, I think it- they're only going to do it if it, if they feel that there's a creative reason to do it. And, um, but I think they are, they're starting to experiment and finding new value, I think, in this type of particularly immersive tech. Ashleigh King: Absolutely. It's really exciting, actually, some of the, uh, facilities in the North East, such as the PROTO Lab, and, you know, the Virtual Reality
Studios. And, um, I'm really excited to see more developments like that. I wanted us to come back to a quick question about... You, you, um, mentioned something about, uh, in the North East, you've noticed that there's a lot of charities, a lot of third sector organizations, and I'm just, I'm curious, is it something about the North East that is different in its, you know, cultural, uh, way of being, um, you know, is it something historical, uh, that maybe in the North East of England, there is a strong sense of social justice or campaigning, or, um, I'm just curious as to whether you have explored that or thought about that in your research, about why there's so many charities in the North East of England? I'm just really wonderingJonathan Sapsed: Yeah, so, I think to be honest, when we found that out, I think we, we kind of left it as a, sort of a fun fact coming out of the results. I mean, thinking about it. I think that certainly there is, there is a high social justice sort of conscience in the North East that goes back a long time, right, in terms of, uh, traditions in the labour movement, and so forth. Um, and also I think, you know, looking at a particular time that North East is in, it's in the post-industrial period, people are finding new forms of, uh, of industry, new forms of business and wealth creation. And there's also, I think, a lot of concern for who that leaves behind. Um, there's a lot of, uh, very socially minded people that set up these enterprises. And we found a lot of the businesses that come forward to get involved with the project, they're very, they're concerned with things like sustainability, with education, they're worried about the future, they've got a high, um, consciousness about EDI- equality, diversity inclusion. So a lot of the, the kind of ideas they come forward with are aimed at those kinds of, uh, objectives, really. So there is, that is something... and it may be, you know, just the, the times that we're in, right? We, we, I'm sure, you know, you find these types of businesses everywhere, but there is a high, a high instance of it here in the North East. Ashleigh King: Absolutely. Thank you. So, one of the questions that I did want to ask you before you go, and I'm asking everyone this today, but Newcastle University Business School, what does that mean to you? If you could say in one word, uh, what, what would you choose? Jonathan Sapsed: It's a, it's a place that brings together a lot of different types of knowledge, a lot of people that come from different kinds of orientations and motivations to learn and do research and, uh, and to disseminate and teach that research. So there is a mix, there is a, an intellectual mix there, I think, which is quite special. So, um, yeah, that's, I think that's, uh, what I would say to that. Ashleigh King: I feel like the word there is "mixing bowl", almost, because you're mixing all these these ideas and people together. Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah, we hope so. And we could, uh, you know, we could, we could always do more on that in terms of mixing up and, um, the different specialisms we have. That, uh, we have all the opportunities to do that.
Ashleigh King: Absolutely. Okay. Uh, and then the last thing just for anyone listening is, um, how, how can people get involved with Creative Fuse, or your projects and other research? Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah. So, so they can, uh, they can certainly look through all the socials, we're on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, if you Google "Creative Fuse North East" there's the website, we also have, uh, every month we have networking events, the CAKE events: Cake, Creativity, and Knowledge Exchange. Um, sometimes we do them in person and then we have real cake, as well as the networking. Sometimes we do them online... Ashleigh King: And then you have a virtual cake, which I actually did see at one of your CAKE events, which I thought was fabulous. Jonathan Sapsed: Yeah absolutely, yeah! Advert: Whatever your professional background, the Creative Fuse monthly networking CAKE events are designed to support potential by inspiring new conversations and allowing introductions to take place that will enable collaboration. Find out more at creativefusene.org.uk. Jonathan Sapsed: So there's a lot of variety there. We cover a lot of different topics, fantastic speakers from, some of them from all over the world now, because we're- that's one of the advantages of doing them online. So uh, all, all are welcome to join those, uh, those events. And that's a good way in to Creative Fuse and getting to know more about the other activities we're doing and how people can get involved. Ashleigh King: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We'll make sure that all of those links are in our show notes and, um, it's just been wonderful to chat to you, Jonathan. Jonathan Sapsed: Thank you Ashleigh. Ashleigh King: Hi Ewan, it's so great to have you with us in the studio today. Ewan Mackenzie: Hi, great to be here. Ashleigh King: Yeah. Uh, it would be wonderful to hear a little bit about you and the many hats you wear and some of the things that uh you really enjoy researching. Ewan Mackenzie: So yeah, I mean, I like I- I love to research anything to do with work and employment. So, my title at the university is I lecture in Work and Employment and, particularly interested in, if you like, precarious labour , um, the way that people are coping with what we might consider the, the current political
economy, and how the world of work and employment is changing. Um, I have researched the creative industries, or the cultural industries, quite recently, as well as, uh, different, um, set-ups within local government and the public sector, and also some work in the automotive industry as well. So, yeah. Ashleigh King: Wow. That's a broad range of, of industries because you've got in the automotive industry, a lot of, you know, established manufacturing, um, procedures, and protocols, and ways of doing things that I guess are in many ways quite profit-led. And then on the other side, you've got very creative people and networks you're working with, which are maybe a little bit more fluid and valuing creativity. Ewan Mackenzie: Yeah. Ashleigh King: It's a little bit more elastic and it's not always the same. So I'm really interested in that actually. It- it sounds like a great starting point for our chat. Ewan Mackenzie: Well, it is, it is a good starting point. And I think the research that we did into the creative industries was illustrative of some of the points you've made there, um, in particular that there is a lot of fluidity um, it's, if you like, it's quite precarious. Um, and also people are in it for reasons that are not necessarily to do with wage labour, or economy, shall we say, they're in it because they're passionate about it, because they cared about it. And that's really key, I think, um, to the research we were looking at, because it was, the creative industries, or the culture industries, have been used as an example, um, to propagate across work and employment more generally, so. And that's the idea that we should be, if you like, uh, responsible for ourselves, we should develop coll- careers in relation to ourselves and not the organization as it were, right? So, and that's a very key illustration of how work and employment has changed, not necessarily for the better, of course. So I look at how we are asked to, if you like, address ourselves within this political economy. How we're asked to consider ourselves as, what I would call "subjects". And then I consider how people are dealing with that, okay, so the, the research that we did into "hope labour". And "hope labour" is the idea that you would work potentially for free, or for a small amount of money, undercompensated, in the hope that something would come of that. We wanted to research this because people do it for different reasons and we wanted to understand what made it meaningful and worthwhile for them. Even though it's, it involves unequal power relationships. So, obviously if you're doing something for free in a sector where there is a value upon labour, you're undermining that value. So you're actually kind of self-defeating in one sense. And also the second point is that it's really only people that can afford to do it, that are doing it. So there's a class issue there. Um, it's really only people that have some disposable income, uh, perhaps some inherited wealth, that are able
to, if you like invest in this future self and create this kind of career by themselves. So it's complicated, but that's kind of what we were researching. Ashleigh King: I think it's fascinating what you've said there about the, the types of people who can do things for free, or who could volunteer. I think, um, similarly to the hope labour of working to gain an opportunity, working to gain experience, uh, one of the things that creatives often hear is you can get, get exposure for doing this, you know, and exposure doesn't pay the rent, does it? So, you know, at the end of the day, uh, that it does present challenges. At the same time, another sector that has a key issue with this, and I think it, you know, uh, lends to some, some of your, your peers who are doing similar research, um, is the, the charity sector. So you often find that people will volunteer and, you know, volunteering is so key to those, those sectors. Um, however at the same time, you know, uh, it does mean that we can be overreliant on volunteers. So, I'm trying to think of examples in the North East, particularly in the past years, but for instance, um, I remember, you know, projects like the Great Exhibition of the North, or large sporting events where, um, potentially rather than hiring, uh, event staff, maybe there will be a large, uh, reliance on volunteers. Ewan Mackenzie: Yeah Ashleigh King: And that can actually mean that it helps to make the project happen, and it helps to bring wonderful events to our region. Ewan Mackenzie: Yeah Ashleigh King: But then at the same time, on a longer term sustainability perspective, um, not as in, from an environmental standpoint, but from the ability to actually run events in the future, Ewan Mackenzie: Yeah Ashleigh King: Um, it undermines the real costs involved if you were to pay real wages. Ewan Mackenzie: Sure, well, I think I would look at that in terms of the, the political system really. Um, and I would tend to argue that we need solidarity and not charity so. Charity is very, it's very important and we do need it. But if we take the example of food banks, for example, they're a decade old, perhaps a bit longer than that, should we really have them? No, we shouldn't have them, they shouldn't be here, we shouldn't have people needing to use them. But at the same time, we have a need for that, and it's good that people are volunteering for that. So I would look at that in a political frame and I would argue that that, well, this, this... although people are volunteering and that's fantastic, we should
have some kind of safety net, if you like, uh, that means people don't need to use a food bank. And, you know, once this becomes normalized and naturalized, it's very difficult to make the argument for change or it's more difficult. So one of the issues we have with uh hope labour is that it has become very naturalized for people. And it's become very normal. And it's something that people would say, well, this is good for my career, this is important, uh, without looking at the bigger picture and sort of illustrating that the entire sector might be suffering as a result of this kind of practice. So these are the kinds of questions I like to sort of ask, and talk about. Ashleigh King: I think, I think it's a really important conversation and, uh, you know, as a creative myself, I'm very grateful that someone's having that conversation and, and, you know, exploring this and researching it. And I'm curious to know, you know, um, the types of creatives, you come across, so the people you work with, or the industries you work with, um, what advice would you tend to give to people who are in those circumstances themselves? Um, I mean, is there, for instance, if you were a creative working on a project or you, um, did feel taken advantage of? One of the things that I've found, or I've viewed, or seen, is over the last two years with the COVID-19 pandemic is, you know, there has been a massive impact to the creative industries in terms of the funding available, in terms of the, um, parity of esteem across, you know, how they are valued as opposed to other industries, you know, and actually, what would a world be like without music, or you know, without art or without, um, all of the many things that creatives do for us to bring new ideas and you know, fresh thinking? Um, so I'm just curious about your views on what people can do, because it does seem to me that this is one area, apart from the Artist Network, which I'm a member of myself, um, what- what ways can people mobilize and come together? You know, are there unions, are there, uh, and how far do you get involved in the policy uh, shaping? Ewan Mackenzie: Okay, well, I would start, start that question by saying that, um, what people tend to do in the current system is blame themselves. So they tend to look at themselves as effectively, not good enough, or because it's kind of set up for failure, if you know what I mean. Um, and what we discovered, was there was a lot of contradiction in how people were operating. So they would want to be- have an artistic life, but they would have to compromise somewhat on a project with certain funding avenues and whatever. Um, and it was conflict. Uh, and when that didn't work out, they would blame themselves. Um, so I would s- I would suggest, you know, don't blame yourself, and think about how to, how to organize collectively, um, there's various ways in which to do that. Obviously, unionization is one way. I think perhaps the unions are slightly out of date here as well. Um, because we need to think about how these things are affecting people's lives, not just in terms of wage labour, but actually the way they're living their, their entire livelihoods. It involves, you know, housing costs, uh, it involves how we, how we organize as a society more generally. Um, so I would say unionization is a one way, but also modernizing that agenda to, to deal with these kind of problems, um. But also, you're not alone. You know,
everybody's in a similar position. Although we have mentioned class, that's obviously part of it, being aware of these differentials, trying to uh, understand how to, um, close these gaps. Um, in terms of policy, I would say that there should be more funding of the arts, definitely. Uh, there should be more state funding of the arts. I think that should come via taxation. Um, I also think that, you know, we're reliant on a kind of American system at the moment, which is, if you like, about patronage and philanthropy. Uh, and that is very individualized. It depends on someone's particular interests, rather than making it accessible for all kinds of different people from different backgrounds and different classes systems. So, uh, that's what I think needs to happen, roughly speaking. Um, and also, you know, we have, if you like traditional leftist movements, which are about autonomy and anarchy, which I think are fantastic, but at times they can dovetail with this idea of the independent, um, self-reliant artist and creative person, and that can actually become quite confusing in a neo-liberal society. And so to be aware of that, that, that it can actually coalesce with these, uh, these kind of what I would call rationalities, or ways of thinking about, about the world and, and work and employment, so. I hope that answers your question. Ashleigh King: Absolutely it does! It's it's fascinating, I could talk to you all day, um, but I am aware that we have limited time. So I did want to ask, um, just one followup question to what you've said there. You know, I, I think that it is important to pay artists what they do. For instance, I know where there was a campaign in the last year talking about, you know, ballerinas, uh, for instance, reretraining and going into a different industry. And I think when you've worked your entire life on a, on a creative journey and, and really got to be the best at your, in your discipline. Yo- everyone can retrain, but I think it is important to value, you know, our artists and our creatives. Um, my, my follow-up question is actually about altruism and it's about giving and philanthropy. And I am very interested in what you were saying about food banks and do we actually need them? And, um, I think that's a really valid point. Ewan Mackenzie: Well, we do but we shouldn't have them. Ashleigh King: Exactly. So my, my point is: if that was the case, if we, if we had food for everyone and we were able to, um, adjust that and, and people were uh, able to, well, we knew that that those basic common needs were being met. My question is, would, do you think people would divert their interest then to another charity or charitable motive and, um, would that then allow for something else, a wicked problem? Would it allow us to solve another issue? So I just mean, um, do you, would you see that shift from, from one issue to another, and then almost a ripple effect of many, many challenges being, being solved? Ewan Mackenzie: Well there are many challenges. Um, but I think we need to start at the base level and work, and work up from there. So another interest of
mine is, you know, a universal, basic income. Um, I have my doubts and feelings about universal basic income but I like the idea that it's, that gives people the opportunity to, um, if you like, become interested in things that matter to them and are meaningful for them. Um, and I think important is the distinction between labour and work. And this idea that labour really is about, you know, surviving, whereas work is something, is a, is a creative process it's a, it's a constructive process. And we can do a lot more with people's lives and they can do wonderful things, but we need to give them the opportunity to do that. Um, and I don't think necessarily the current system enables people to do that. So that's kind of what I would be interested in there. Um, I think, yeah, I mean, we can't look at things in isolation. You're quite right to say that. It is a systematic problem. Um, and lots of things will change if we, if we, if we think about the system holistically, uh, I think that's a really, really good way to think about it. So I don't like to, when I'm talking about hope labour and the cultural industries, I'm, I'm always very keen to say, this is actually a model for working employment, generally, you know, the New Labour government used it as a model to suggest that we should be entrepreneurial and, and career minded and you know, more individualistic rather than tied to a particular bureaucracy or, or institution. Um, and that is how people are living now. So we have problems with that system as well. And we need to modify that and, and think about that, I think. Ashleigh King: Absolutely. I think it's a fascinating subject and I'm actually really looking forward to learning more about it myself and exploring those thoughts and theories. I do want to know if any listeners are interested, how can they find out more about your research? Ewan Mackenzie: Sure, well, there's a paper out in a journal called Human Relations. The title of the paper's 'Hope labour and the psychic life of cultural work', and that's with Alan McKinley. Um, so again, we look at if you like how people are relating to themselves and how that's a confusing situation for them, and we talk about that. Um, and there's also lots of different organizations that you can get involved in, if you're an artist or a cultural worker, there's the Precarious Workers Brigade, which is a good example. There's also the Artist Union for England, which is a small union, but it's growing, um, and yeah, uh, lots of different writers in this area. I think Angela McRobbie has written a lot on this, she's at Goldsmiths University in London. Um, unfortunately she's just recently retired, but I think she's still very involved, um, and she was an inspiration for this research as well, so yeah, there's lots of things to see, and find and get involved with.
Ashleigh King: Excellent. Well, we will make sure to put some of those links in the show notes. And my last question is just, what is the number one word that you would use, your one word, sorry, to describe Newcastle University Business School? Ewan Mackenzie: Um, collegiate. Ashleigh King: I like that. Ewan Mackenzie: Yeah, definitely very supportive colleagues. And a group of people that I work with, so yeah, that's what I would say. Ashleigh King: Fantastic! Thank you so much. That's brilliant. Ewan Mackenzie: Thank you. Ashleigh King: Thanks for listening. We'd love to hear your feedback. You can drop us a line at nubspodcast@newcastle.ac.uk, and you can also tag us in any of our Newcastle University Business School social media channels. You can find these links in our show notes. Don't forget to like subscribe, comment and share with your friends. This podcast has been brought to you by Newcastle University Business School. Your host has been Ashleigh King, with executive production by Ashleigh King. Photography by Paul Scurragh of THAT Branding Company and Blindsee Photo. Production by Alice Smith and Tim Lozinski at TL Multimedia Limited.