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,Field,Políčko Art in Taipei

Swimming fishes knowing nothing about what water is 如悠游的魚不知水為何物

In Taiwan, there are no less than hundred books of interviews published every year, no mention the interviews in the columns or special projects on the news paper and magazines. Among them, the interviews with artists or creators are of rather small proportion. Though the art magazines won’t neglect the interviews with artists, recently the interviews with overseas artists, or Chinese Artists, are growing in a sound speed. Meanwhile, in the interviews with artists, people always focus on their

works. Artworks as a representation of Artists’ thinking have always been putting on a higher position compare to the people themselves. In realization of above two points, we decide the schema of the interview questions and the way of editing: We make them talk about the land, the history, and their connections to the place. In the books we collect 12 interviews with artists and curators. They are from different generations and their artworks are also with a great variety. It’s hard to draw a general image among them. We try to analogue a situation as-

以訪談作為形式出版的作品在台灣每年約有不下百本，當中還不包含報章雜誌中的專欄或是特別計劃，不過當中以藝術家或創作者為客體的佔極小比例，雖然藝術雜誌中總不會缺少訪談藝術家的專欄，但是這幾年來訪談海外（或者，讓我們更直接點，大陸）藝術家的數量相對高很多。另一方面，在對藝術家的訪談之中，很少不對作品的創作進行提問的，作品做為藝術家意志的再現總是被放置了很多關照，有時進而凌駕了創作者。我們所觀察到的這兩點，成為決定訪談問題的規劃以及整理訪談的編輯很重要的方向︰我們讓藝術家去談這塊土地，這裡的歷史，還有這

和他自己有甚麼關係。本書收錄了十二位藝術家和策展人的訪談，受訪者的年齡跨越了不同的年代，就彼此的創作類型來說差異也很大，這是一個乍看之下不太能掌握一致性的採樣，我們企圖去類比一種接近普查的狀態（當然實際上是不可能的），在設計上我們企圖去描述一個「台灣性的」樣貌，並且也得到了描述上的重疊和偏移之處，我們試著藉由這些操作來鬆動台灣人自己對台灣的刻板印象框架，為受訪者建構一個將自己放在外面來形容自己的狀態，這種處於外邊的狀態提供了一種新的可能性。當然，如果不是因為團隊當中有一名外籍人士或許很難達成這樣的目的，當我們身處在台灣，說著夾雜國語和

similated to a census (which is apparently impossible). In the design of the book we try to map out the image of “Taiwanese”. And we also receive some identical and different descriptions for the same things. We use this kind of operation to loosen up the structure of the stereotypes. We create a status when the interviewees are set outside of their original situation and let them describe the place where they were to us. The place of “out here” provides a new possibility. Of course, if it wasn’t because we have a foreigner in the group it might not be possible

to reach the purpose. When we are located in Taiwan, speak Chinese and other dialects, it’s hard for us to share our different points of view with each other, we tend to assume what we know are the same. We won’t have chance to let the inconsonance of fragmented history to be emerged. On the other hand, we can also see how the topic of the interviews shifted from the artworks to the island when the artists assume that it won’t be easy for foreigners to understand the complicated history and society of Taiwan. It thus makes the purpose of the interview

方言的語言，被認為對台灣的理解和熟悉是理所當然的，我們就沒有機會重新檢視在破碎歷史下，彼此的認知差異其實有多大；相對地因為在對談當中受訪者預設了外國人在理解台灣的困難性和不可能性，所以訪談過程中自然地調整了談論內容的比重，也因為這樣讓這個訪談的目的變成了可能。客觀的歷史背景和環境因素雖然不能被改變，但是生存態度的生成和塑型卻有可能因為自我重新檢視和不斷的改變而得到進化。除了一份對於台灣人自身主體的重新檢視，這本書還背負了另一個目的就是做為給外國人「認識台灣」的書籍，透過觀光局的文宣你可以認識台灣，透過探索頻道的節目你可以認

識台灣，甚至透過世界各地的台商你都可以認識台灣，但是透過對藝術家的訪談你所能認知道的台灣，是一種帶著濾鏡的台灣，這些人帶著比一般人更強的感受性，以及對於將這些感受轉化成創作的能力，透過這樣的濾鏡所能見到的台灣島或許比任何平面的文宣都更能提供想像。換句話說，相較於去塑造一個「藝術圈」，這本書所能提供的可能性在於塑造一個對台灣的想像，一種透過創作者的觀點來進行的建構，它打破了藝術圈這個渺小又封閉的圈圈，融化了一般人對他的陌生感和距離感，在尚未被創造的對台灣的想像空間裡企圖去提供一種不同的觀點。在第一本訪談集成形的同時，我

become possible. We cannot change what had happened and how it was, but through constant reviews and retrospect we might have chance to move on. Besides a review of Taiwanese subjectivity, the book also served as a guide for foreigners to “get to know how Taiwan is”. With the tour guide or brochure from travel agency one might know Taiwan, from the TV program on discovery channel one might know Taiwan, one can even know Taiwan through the Taiwanese business men all over the world. However, the knowing of Taiwan

through the perspectives of artists is a filtered one. Artists’ ability of perceiving subtle changes is stronger, they also behalf the ability to turn what they feel into a tangible formats. This filter gives us an innovative way to know Taiwan, which might be more vivid and imaginary than any guide books. In other words, we are not trying to map out an “Art Circle”, but rather mapping out a different imagination of Taiwan. A point of view towards Taiwan from the artists and creators and it not only breaks the small and closed circle of art but also melts the indif-

們對這個階段性的呈現帶有一種期待，並且也積極的去拓展未來可能持續進行的各種不同形式，這本書作為一份活動的紀錄，也可以是團隊本身進行中的一種證明，希望能藉由此書所帶來的反應，給我們一些可能的方向，讓我們在將來的操作上能夠有所突破。

ference and coldness feeling of people to the arts. By the time the first collection of interviews is completed, we are given a positive feeling toward this project. Now we are also brainstorming the possible following activities for the project. The book, as a periodic mark of our team, it’s also a record of our becoming. We hope that the reaction of this book from you can give us some new ideas when deciding the future direction and lead us to a new break through.

Zoe Yeh 文葉佳蓉 6

â&#x20AC;&#x153;I am not political, i dont understand why people still asking me why i am so active. Artist has to be active. As Michelangelo...â&#x20AC;? Yao Jui Chung

,Field,Políčko

The story o poli

介绍

introduction

and Art in Taipei

The project ,Field,Políčko focuses on the ideas of exchange, reverse of stereotypes, share of different points of view, it connects the western and eastern experiences together and trying to find a new possibility of communication, and new definition of the field of Contemporary art. The main part is made by Czech-Taiwanese team of six members, and the communications and interactions between artists from different countries : Czech student and Taiwanese artist. The interview collection is one of the most important parts of the project. It seems to be pretty difficult with different languages sometimes. However, with the language of art, we eventually find the way to understand each other and we really appreciate the benefit from being able to use the different approach. We thus turn the communication or language barriers into our “plus”. Due to the facts that we have to face in the interviews, we can create a space for free actions spontaneously, not for any purpose. This is just a beginning of the project. We certainly wish the hard work full of sweat on the field can prepare a space for next seeds to be dilated somewhere else...everywhere.

,Field,Políčko 計畫的重點在想法的交換、刻版印象的反轉以及不同觀點的分享，我們結合東方和西方的經驗企圖要找到溝通上新的可能性以及對當代藝術的新定義。計畫包含來自捷克和台灣共六名的成員，以及兩個國家之間藝術家和學生的溝通和互動。訪談集是整個計劃中重要的一部份，雖然語言的差異有時讓訪談顯得困難，但是透過藝術的語彙我們找到了不同的方法來了解彼此，因此能夠將這個溝通或語言的隔閡轉化成我們的「加分」，也因為這個訪談上的現實問題，一個自由的表述空間也自然地形成，而非透過任何有意的安排。這只是計畫的第一步，希望透過我們在這塊田上的努力和耕耘，能夠準備好一塊土地，讓接下來的種子發芽…在任何地方。

Juliana Höschlová

Yao Jui Chung 姚瑞中

Yao, Jui-chung. Compare to a great artists we’d rather say he is a great teacher. He is definitely a great artist with always tons of exhibitions waiting for him to participate. On the other hand, he is also a great teacher, he’s always thinking about how to show students more, how to give students chances to have exhibitions. He never hesitates when encouraging students to go for what they want, he can also give very useful suggestions. Most of people know him as an artist, but we would like to show the teacher part of him.

姚瑞中，比起一位藝術家對我們來說他更像一個教育者，他絕對是一個成功的藝術家，總有很多展覽等著他去參加；但他也一定是一個很棒的指導者，他總想著怎麼帶著學生去認識更多事情，怎麼幫學生找到機會展覽，他從不吝嗇支持鼓勵而且也能給有建設性的建議，相對於大部分人都知道的藝術家的一面，我們更想呈現他教育者的一面。

J： It seems like you care about making records very much. Y： We are living in a disconnected era, we don’t know what others are doing, no mention previous generation, ten years ago or twenty years ago. Since we are not able to know, we lose the genealogical concept as well. We are always accepting the concepts which have been transplanted. Maybe it’s getting better recently, everybody is talking about the 60s or 70s, though we have different living environment, we share

the same problems. We are still lack of our own viewpoints. We need that to communicate with the westerns and to maybe debate. J：If those records are to show a Taiwanese viewpoint or perspective, why do you use writing to make the record? Y：Besides writing, I also take photos. Maybe it’s not like the record for record, I just like to collect things, if you collect enough, a document thus appears, if you have enough documents, we can see the vein

J：您似乎是一個很在乎紀錄的出自己的觀點和看法，為何採用人？書寫的方式呢？ Y：我們是活在一個斷裂的時代，沒有辦法知道同時間的人在做甚麼，或是上一代，甚至十年前、二十年前，因為我們不知道所以喪失系譜的概念。我們都在接受一種移植的概念，這點最近有改善，因為大家都在討論六零年代、七零年代，基本上環境不同，但是問題雷同，問題還是在於我們欠缺觀點，我們的觀點如何跟西方對話，或是反駁。

Y：其實除了書寫我也有拍照，或許也不是為紀錄而紀錄，我有一個壞習慣就是收集東西，收東西收久，就有檔案，做久了就有一個脈絡出來。我覺得台灣人不太重視檔案，其實寫書很累，然後整理也累又花時間，但是基礎工程一定要有人做。最該做這些紀錄的就是學者，不過現在學院的人都是在西方受教育，當然我們可以借鏡西方優秀東西，來發展自己的不足，不過後來有點變 J：如果說這些紀錄是為了累積相，我們在幫所有學生洗腦，洗 12

in them. In my opinion, Taiwanese people don’t value documents that much. It’s actually exhausting to write, it’s even tiring editing what you write. But I believe that somebody has to do the fundamental things. Especially the scholars, but the scholars in the academy now are all educated in the west, though it’s important to learn the outstanding western knowledge, so that we can see our weakness. However, now the situation has become pretty strange. We are giving our students brain-

wash, it seems like the high art or high aesthetics are all from the west. Isn’t Taiwanese art high art? We have been internalized into the western aesthetic system, we are now enhancing their system. Z：Do you think your teaching style has been affected by any other culture? Y：I graduated from TNUA. The typical teaching style in TNUA is pretty loose. It is not a good place for students who study very hard. It’s rather a place for unique students. I’ve

腦成他們眼中的高級藝術、高級的美學，現在變成用西方的方式在洗腦，難道台灣的藝術就不高級嗎？我們已經被內化到他們系統裡的分支，去宣揚他們美學系統。

不會變成藝術家，這裡面也有一個問題，藝術是可以被教的嗎？我教了五六年還是不太清楚。 J：在台灣，藝術學院有學分制，課程有時限，與捷克情況相異，這邊您有何看法呢？

Z：您目前除了藝術創作其實也任教於大學，關於你的教學方 Y：其實我是蠻質疑學院這個體式，是否有受到何種風格影響制，要成為一個專業藝術家，這呢？些學位不是從事藝術的終極目標，只是一個過程，重點是如何 Y：我是北藝大畢業的，北藝大去開發你自己、如何去學習。因通常都是放牛吃草，北藝大是不為我在學校只是兼課，事實上要適合好學生的，適合特立獨行的付出的代價是超過實際收穫的，人，我教這麼多年，通常好學生我也是很希望跟學生有更多的交 13

been teaching for couple years, the students who studied hard in the end usually turn out to be something else but a good artist. We can see an obvious question here—Can ART really be taught? I still can’t figure it out after teaching for 5,6 years. J：In Taiwan, art college students have to count their credits, the class are limited in couple hours, this is totally different from Czech. What do you think about the difference in teaching?

Y：Actually I doubt the so call academy system. For one who wants to be a professional artist, the diploma must not be your ultimate goal. It is nothing but a procedure you have to go through. The point is how you discover yourself, how you learn. I am just a part-time teacher in the university. In teaching, one always pays more than he can receive. Of course I would love to have more conversations with the students, but not in the limited time in the class. If they come to me in private, I am very

流，但是時間上不允許，但是如處來這個問題很感興趣，因為我果學生私底上來找我，我當然很爸是從大陸撤退來台，所以我對整個時期的處境蠻有興趣，因為樂意。我爸很早過世，我沒機會跟他 Z：早期至近期的創作所關注的談，所以用了很多本土占領和反攻大陸，基本上都在處理我個人主題，有何種變化？對於父權話語的一種回應，他是 Y：應該說從一開始就和我的生我生命中很重要的問題，所以不命有關，因為大家都覺得我的作只是表面看的問題，他是很生命品很政治，事實上我是反政治的問題。的，我是透過政治來反政治，不是說你用了一些政治元素他就是 J：既然你談到你的家庭，你知政治藝術，我的作品還是很古道你從那裏來嗎？你的身分認同典，我還是對於說我是如何來到又是如何？這裡？我是誰？我該如何面對未來？很感興趣，早期對於我是何 Y ：基本上不管你來自哪個家 14

willing to talk to them. Z：We can see the changing of themes from your early works to your recent works, can you talk about these differences? Y：I should say that it’s always related to my life. People always say that my works are political, it’s actually anti-political. I use politics to go against politics. We can’t define something political art simply because there are some politic factors in it. I think my works are still very classical, it’s still a problem of why

I am here, who I am, how should I face the future, etc. I am interested in some questions, in the early years I am interested in where do I from. My parents retreated from mainland China in the 40s, so I have been interested in that generation. My dad passed away pretty early so I don’t have chance to ask him, but I use many factors, such as “mainland occupation” and “counter-back mainland”, as a reaction to my father, to the parenthesis. It has always been an important question in my life, it’s

庭，都有你自己的認同和疑問在裡面，只是說我的狀況比較特殊，在整個時代造成的氣氛之下，我碰到的點跟這個時代有所接觸，比如說政治議題或水墨的問題，基本上我還是蠻尊重傳統，但是我是用一種比較非正統性的方式去質疑那個正統性，我們有故宮的文物，我們保留中國文字很優秀的東西，但是對於台灣又是很假很虛幻的，對照於目前中國大陸的現實性，那到底什麼是我們的正統性？這個正統性是我一直在談的問題，我是誰？我的身分在台灣好像是正統，在華人之間好像是非法的或是不被

承認的、懸置的，比如說我們畫水墨畫，中國大陸說這個是屁、不正統，可是我全部是用他們正統的東西在畫，實際上我畫的是山寨版的中國水墨畫，藉此去顛覆他們約定俗成的東西，我的作品就是用一些反向思考去撞擊一些事情。 Z：能不能告訴我們之後想要進行的計劃或是有甚麼創作方向呢？ Y：我現在在做一個計畫，台灣蚊子館大調查，我帶很多學生去做，教學過程中發現實際去做好 15

not only on the surface. It’s always a question deep in life. J：Since you mentioned your family, have you found out where you’re from? What about your own identity? Y：Basically, no matter what kind of family are you from, there’s always self identity and self questioning in it. It is just that my case is more complicated. Under the circumstance of this insecure era, my questions collide with the generation, no matter the politic issue or the calligraphy

painting issue. Of course I respect the tradition, but I would question the legitimacy of tradition in an unorthodox way. We have those important collections in the National Palace Museum, we are retaining those outstanding Chinese ancient treasures, but it’s so fake and so unreal to Taiwan. Compare to the reality right now in Mainland China, what is the legitimacy in Taiwan? The legitimacy is exactly the same question which I have been talking about all the time, who exactly am

像比較有效，因為美術系的學生都習慣單打獨鬥，可以讓他們一起做的還蠻有趣的。我的層面有三個，第一個是國家、社會、民族，第二層次是社會和環境，第三是個人和情感，譬如廢墟就比較偏社會環境，因為會談到社會性的議題和現象。我採取的方式是不介入，現在很多人在談藝術要介入社會，你操作的不好，反而被社會介入，你的藝術就不見了，比如說我拍的廢墟就像幽靈在旁邊看一樣，沒有去改變它的現狀，像很多人不是都擺個美女拍廢墟，或是噴漆，每個人介入的方式都不一樣，我是採取一種

明視，直接看的方式，沒有去改變。我覺得明視就是一種力量，而且現在太多人用photoshop，那個真實性都被削弱很多，所以現在大家看照片的問題，第一個看到就覺得是用photoshop、這是假的吧！第一個注意到的是它的倫理性的問題，而不是背後的意義，我覺得有點本末倒置。我出了幾本攝影的書，人外人在談型態學，台灣民間某種看不到的力量，造成的一些偶像化的東西；另一個廢墟在談台灣的廢墟，另一本在談離島的廢墟，有很強的政治地理學的概念，台灣有很多建築也好街道或公共建設

I? My identity in Taiwan is legitimate probably, is probably illegal, is not acknowledged among the Chinese people, is suspended. For instance, we are doing the calligraphy paintings, China would say this is not legitimate, what we are doing is just a fart. But we are using the traditional ideas in painting. I am making a copy of the ancient Chinese calligraphy paintings. I want to challenge their tradition. I want to collide something with a reversed thinking. Z：Can you tell us your current

project or the future works you plan to do? Y： I am now doing one project, Taiwan Mosquito Buildings Investigation. I get many students involved in the project. It’s more effective to make students do things on their own. Normally Art students are not good in co-working with others. It’s interesting to let them work in a team. There are three aspects that I concern. First one is the country, society and the nationality. Second one is the society and the environ-

都跟政治有關，蚊子館也是政治地理學的一部分，他跟選票有關跟地方樁腳也有關；他跟中央政府的預算、政績也有關；事實上他跟民生無關，跟一般人民的想望也無關，所以這些蚊子館在還沒蓋以前就已經是廢墟了，因為它就是為了要爭取選票、勢力、地方樁腳，一定要有這個才能爭取到後面那些東西，這就是政治地理學的一部分。所以我的作品好像看不出甚麼政治性，後面都有一些政治操作，我沒有透過政治的方式在操作，但是都有一些政治的力量.

ment. Third one is the human and the emotions. My way of making the project is not to involve too much. There are so many people talking about the intervention of Art to the Society all the time. In my opinion, if you can’t ensure the appropriate operation, sometimes the Arts just disappear in the society. For instance, I take photos of ruins as if I am a ghost haunting inside. I don’t attempt to change anything of the current situation. Some people put pretty girls into the ruins. Some paint the ruins with lots of graffiti.

ible power in the Taiwan local society, which creates some idols. “Roaming around ruins in Taiwan” talks about the ruins in Taiwan. “Ruined Island” also talks about the ruins in the islands of Taiwan. They have a very strong political geography’s idea. There are many good architecture and streets in Taiwan are related to the public construction and politics. Mosquito buildings are also part of the political geography. The mosquito building has been deeply connected to the election votes, to the local powers, to the central government’s bud-

Others choose different ways to intervene. However, I just want to look at them directly, without any modification. I think to gaze is a kind of power, recently people abused the using of photoshop, the sense of real has been faded. That’s why now when we look at a picture, the idea of “that’s not true, that’s photoshop” comes in mind. The first thing we care is about its ethic, instead of the story inside. That’s not what I want. I have couple books about photography, “Beyond Humanity” talks about the morphosis. There’s invis-

get and policy. It actually has nothing to do with the people’s living style. It also has nothing to do with what people want. Thus the mosquito building has already been ruins long before it was built. It’s nothing but a chase for the votes, the powers, the local supports. One needs it to get the following benefits. This is what I called political geography. Some might think that my works are lack of politics, actually there are full of politics. Instead of operating politically, I chose other ways to show the politic powers.

Yao, Jui Chung ~ 1969 http://www.yaojuichung.com/ 21

Yu Cheng Ta 余政達

Cheng Ta had just returned from New York residency when I met him for the fist time in Fine Arts Department Office. That guy participated in Venice Biennial. And so I admit to myself that is humane to frame people to the concrete positions. I slowly get closer to a little bit similar situation in art. Taiwanese pavilion affect to me as a form of some documentation and started to think what is really shown there, whose idea should be seen. The local experience is totally different compares to what I saw in the pavilion. That taught me that I should hold one’s tongue for next time. He is pretty relaxed and honest guy and his point always is about where he is.

第一次在美術系辦遇到余政達，是他剛從美國回來的時候。他參加了2009年威尼斯雙年展，我承認我忍不住把他歸類為有名的雙年展藝術家，雖然這種框架並不必要。當時台灣館給我的印象是一種像文件展的形式，我開始思考，在威尼斯被展出的作品實際上究竟是什麼樣的，我應該要看見的到底是誰的想法。在地的經驗與我在台灣館中所見的截然不同，這提醒了我下次必須要在事前先保持觀望的客觀態度。在訪談中他表現得相當放鬆，他的觀點主要與他身處在何處的命題相關。

J : We can just start to talk about your experience as a lucky young artist chosen for 53th Venice Biennial Taiwan Pavilion. What does the experience mean to you? Z : How did you find Venice? Can you tell us the working experience there? Y : There is an important point in my works, the interviews are conducted in Mandarin Chinese, that means for Taiwanese people or Chinese speaker, they can easily sense the difference between speaking

language and the subtitle. But for people who don’t speak Chinese, the experince is very different. In that case, the understanding of language depends on what they saw (subtitle). However, they cannot tell the differences of foreigners Chinese and the correct Chinese, they do not understand. So they have to rely on the subtitles. Thus makes the subtitles become very important in my work. Especially in the work with Philippine girls, the language was shifting during the interview.

J : 做為一個被挑選出來參與第53 屆威尼斯雙年展台灣館的幸運年輕藝術家。你覺得這樣的經驗對你而言有什麼樣的意義？

而言，對語言的理解完全來自於他們所看見的，也就是作品的字幕。他們們無法分辨和理解外國人所述說的華語以及正確華語之間的差異，因此他們只能依賴字幕。所以，字幕在我的作品中成為一個非常重要的元素，特別是在菲律賓女孩的那件作品中，因為在面談中所使用的語言不停轉變，因此沒有一個標準的語言結構，我使用了一些台語的結構和英語的文法。在這樣的情況下，人們無法使用任何語言學的邏輯來閱讀它，而是必須運用所能獲取的少數資訊去補完整件作品的意義。如果我使用了標準的語

Z : 你在威尼斯看到了什麼？你能不能告訴我們你在那兒工作的經驗如何？ Y : 我的作品有個特點：作品中我使用中文來進行對談，這使得以中文為母語的人，像是台灣人或中國人，能夠輕易的發現我在作品的話語和字幕上所安排的差異；但這件作品帶給不說中文的人的經驗則非常不同。對他們 24

So what I translated was not the standard language. I used some Taiwanese language structure and also used the English grammar. So people read it without any linguistic logic, you have to complete the meaning of sentence by yourself so that you can understand. If I used a standard language, the interview is going to be like a narrative, but I don’t want to tell any story. I want to show that language is always changing. We are not using the standard language and we also don’t need

it to communicate what with each other. This not-so-correct language is the real life. At the beginning, it was a test or a experiment for me, later people told me, oh it is very interesting. It is just a conversation, but you have to read it in other way. So they think the experience is very interesting. Z : The work was showed both in Taipei Biennial 2008 and Venice Biennial for Taiwan pavilion. They are both very big event and comparatively you are very young, did

言，這個面談就會像是一件敘事，而我並不想試圖去說一個故事，而是去彰顯語言總是在改變的事實。我們並不需要總是使用標準的語言來溝通我們所想的事情，所以我所呈現的這些語言的非正確性才更加接近真實的生活。在一開始的時候，這樣的想法對我而言像是一個測試或是實驗，後來有人告訴我他們認為這非常有趣。這只是一些對話，但我們必須用另一種方式去閱讀它。他們認為這種經驗是非常好玩的。

雙年展和威尼斯雙年展台灣館展出。相對於這兩次重要的展覽你是非常年輕的藝術家，你的朋友和同學可能都還未曾擁有相同的展出經歷。這些展出經驗和事件是否對你造成了一些改變？

Y : 這個問題我被問過很多次了。對我而言，只是因為我比較幸運才能參加08年的台北雙年展。我不知道為什麼，可能單純是因為當時的策展人覺得我的作品可以表達他們的概念。當策展人來到學校時，我和一些其他的學生們展示我們的作品給他們看，然後 Z : 這件作品曾經在2008年台北他們挑選了我的作品並開始和我 25

the events change you? Because your friends or your classmates they night not have the same experience. Y : I have been asked the same question for many times. For me, it is just lucky, that I got to participate in the Taipei Biennial 2008. I do not know why, maybe it’s just because the curators like my work. They just came to the school and with also others students we showed our works. So they chose me and we started to communicate. I think is really nice,

curators have to go to the school and find something fresh. Z : Did they go to other art universities? Y : I heard that they also went to other two art universities in Taiwan. But they chose me in the end. When I started to participate in Taipei Biennial, the real life did not change that much. I just had to face the curator and museum…etc. In my experience Taipei Fine art museum is more professional than any other paces. They have been dealing with exhibition

溝通。策展人到學校來找尋一些們學到很多的東西。第二次我去新的可能，這讓我覺得非常棒。威尼斯時也是和北美館合作。 Z : 策展人有到其他的藝術大學 J：我認為威尼斯雙年展是世界上非常重要的一個雙年展，威尼嗎？斯是一個充滿歷史感且容易到達 Y:我聽說他們也有到另外兩所藝的美麗城市，充滿了外國人，所術大學去，但他們最後選擇了我以你展示了你的作品給非常多且的作品。我的生活並沒有因為參不同的人們看。對於這樣的展示與了台北雙年展而改變太多，我你覺得如何？只是必須去面對策展人、美術館…等等。在我的經驗中，北美 Y ：我覺得這是一個很好的經館相對其他地方而言是一個很專驗，威尼斯雙年展相對於台北雙業的場域，他們會用很長的時間年展當然是更加國際化的。我並來討論和處理展覽，知道他們想不認為我自己是台灣的代表，所要的是什麼，所以我可以跟著他以這樣的想法並不會很困擾我。 26

for such a long time, and they know what they want, you can just follow them and learn a lot. Second time I went to Venice and I also collaborated with Taipei Fine Art Museum… J : Venice Biennial, in my opinion, is still very important among all Biennials in the rest of the world. It is easy to get there also Venice is beautiful historic city, full of foreigners, so you showed your work to many people from different countries. What do you feel about it?

Y：I think it is a good experience; compare to Taipei Biennial, the Venice Biennial is more international of course. I don’t really consider myself a representative of Taiwan so it didn’t bother me that much. I think that is fine, I am relaxed. Z：Maybe we can ask Juliana, she has been to the Taiwan Pavilion in Venice as well, and she is now here in Taiwan. Would you consider the Taiwan Pavilion as a representation of Taiwan? J：Well, I think many countries

我在那裏相當的放鬆。

術經驗與我在威尼斯雙年展所看到的是非常不同的。我記得你(余政達)的作品，但我將它視為一種文件，像是陳界仁的作品一樣，它們當時並未使我感到太過好奇。但因為現在我住在這裡，所以我覺得一切都有了一些改變。在威尼斯雙年展中我能碰觸到的只是非常表面的台灣印象。

Z：也許你可以問問Juliana，她也曾經到過威尼斯雙年展的台灣館，然後她現在人在這兒。你覺得台灣館有成功的表現台灣的樣子嗎？ J：為了拓展國際的可見度，我想很多國家都亟欲參與威尼斯雙年展，因為這個展覽的規模極大，我發現我最有興趣的部分就是那些原汁原味的在地藝術。那個夏天我沒有花很多的時間在參觀台灣館，因為我知道我將會來到這兒，但是在台灣我的當代藝

Z：你認為台灣館真的能夠讓台灣被國際看到嗎？ Y：各個國際館最重要的目的不是讓國家被看到，反而是要符合既定的刻板印象。舉例來說，當 27

would like to participate in Venice Biennial to improve their international visibility. In this existing exhibition which is quite huge I realized that I am more interested in some artworks, which are somehow local or original from the concrete land or country. But this summer I did spend more time in Taiwan pavilion. Because I knew that I will be in Taiwan. But the experience of contemporary art here is really different than what I saw in the biennial. I remember your

work ( Yu,Cheng-Ta), but for me I perceived it as a kind of document. And also was not so curious about Chen Chieh-Jen. But now it is everything really different because of the living experience here. It was only a fleeting touch. Z：Do you think that the Pavilion could really make Taiwan seen? Y：In the international pavilions, the idea was most of time not about being seen, but about to fit in the stereotype. For example, when I went to New York I felt it exactly

Y：我有另外一個更令人喪氣的故事。威尼斯雙年展官方開幕時邀請了許多台灣的政治人物和媒體，你可以看到一些台灣的名人—像是台北市長，單純為了搏版面和證明自己在威尼斯，在開幕儀式之後，他們就回台灣了。所有的台灣媒體都報導了台灣館的開幕，但是沒有任何國外媒體出現。台灣人看到了威尼斯台灣館開幕的新聞，但是其他國家的人們卻完全沒有注意到這件事，所以我們超級國際化的。當 Z：老實說這件事情並不讓我感我發現這樣的情況時我的感覺很到有趣。不好，在台灣館的展示方式和展示內容方面我們有很多有趣的想我到了紐約，我覺得它跟我想像中的紐約幾乎是一模一樣的，所以我就用了這樣的方式來製作我的作品。但是台灣館的標題則是外交，這讓我感到蠻有趣的。台灣是一個很奇怪的國家，它叫做台灣，但是我的護照上寫的則是中華民國—而且它並不是中華人民共和國的一部分。所以當人們聽到我說我來自台灣時，他們會說：哦，我喜歡台灣，泰國的食物超棒的。

like what I imagined about New York. So I made some of my works in this way. But in the Taiwanese pavilion, the title was Foreign Affair. It was very interesting to me. Taiwan is a very weird country, it is called Taiwan but on my passport there is written Republic of China and Republic of China is not part of People Republic China. So people reacted when I said I am from Taiwan--oh I like Taiwan, the Thai food is good. Z：Seriously sometimes I don’t find it funny.

Y：I have one more very sad story. I went to Venice Biennial, for the opening the authority invited many Taiwan politicians and press. You can imagine the Taiwanese celebrities, like mayor of Taipei city, came to Venice only for the press, just to show up to prove that they were there. And after the opening they just came back to Taiwan. All the Taiwan press reported the opening of Taiwan Pavilion, but no any foreign press was there. People in Taiwan see the news of Taiwan Pavilion in

法，但這些完全是沒有用的。他學到更多。我的作品總是扣連著們甚至不邀請國外媒體來報導台我所身處的地方或是一些與其他事情相關的主題，這對我而言才灣館，沒有人知道它。是最重要的事情。當我到了其他 J：你對於台灣藝術有怎麼樣的的國家，我看到台灣並不是一個想法，或者你是否認為你感覺到很國際化的地方，我們至少還需你對它有一些責任…或是你並不要十年以上去發展我們的當代藝術。在乎？ Y：我並不想想這麼多。當然我會與畫廊進行一些合作，但我自己的藝術創作仍會繼續進行，而我也不想停止創作。我還很年輕，今年我必須要完成我的碩士學位，但明年我想要申請一些駐村計畫，這些駐村計畫能讓我

J：你的意思是說台灣目前的境況還很封閉嗎？或說台灣藝術在國際排名不好，還是沒有人知道台灣的藝術家？ Y：我想兩者皆是。年輕藝術家擁有一些機會利用賣畫來賺錢， 29

Venice, but the rest of the world might not even pay any attention to it. So we are so international. When I saw it I felt so bad, I think that we have quite interesting thinking how to do the show in pavilion and that there is some thought but this is totally a waste. They didn’t invite other foreign press to introduce Taiwan pavilion. But nobody knows about it. J: Do you have some vision for Taiwanese art, or do you feel some responsibility for representation…or you don’t care?

Y：I don’t want to think too much. Of course there are some collaborations with galleries, but the process or my work are still developing so I don’t want to stop it, I am still young. For this year I have to excuse myself to finish my diploma. But next year I want to apply for more residencies, I learn quite a lot through residencies. My works are always about where am I or about the related subjects. That is the most important thing to me. When I go to other countries I can see that Taiwan is not

而我擔心對他們來說這樣就夠了。他們沒有想要出去看看的想法，而另外一個層面則是並沒有很多人需要台灣。對他們而言中國更加具有吸引力，日本、或許韓國也和我們處在相同的處境，但他們投入了很多的資源來支持藝術家出國體驗世界。香港也很不同…因為他們所處的位置的關係。每年會有一萬個左右的策展人到中國，其中有一千個會到香港去，但台灣可能只有五百個人會來…我不知道，留在自己的國家總是比較容易，就只是呆在這裡，他們就覺得夠好了。所以這跟我們所處的網絡和國際能見度

有關。當然，我覺得我們必須要思考這些事情，我們的藝術並不差，但是沒有很多人知道台灣。 J : 我只剩一些小問題了。你覺得雙年展好玩嗎？ Y : 其實蠻無聊的。 J : 你是台灣人嗎？ Y : 是的。 J : 你是否相信上帝？ Y：我並不確定上帝是什麼，在

very international. In contemporary art, we might have to spend maybe ten more years to develop. J : But what do you mean? That the scene is quite close, or art is not in the international ranking or nobody knows about Taiwanese artists. Y：I think both. Young artists have opportunity to earn money with their paintings and I am afraid it is enough for them. They have no idea to go out. And other part is that not so many people need Taiwan.

Chinese is more attractive, Japan... maybe Korea has the same situation. But they put a lot of money to support artists to go to out experiencing the world. Hong Kong is also different…because of their location as well. Every year around 10 000 curators go to China including 1 000 in Hong Kong. But to Taiwan maybe 500...I don’t now. People are easy to get satisfied and do not move anymore. So it depends on the network also, the visibility. Of course, I think we have to worry about that. Our art

台灣，我們擁有很多種神明。不，也許上帝只是種想像，而不是真正存在的。

is not so bad but nobody knows Taiwan. J : I have only couple questions left. Was the Biennial good? Y：It was quite boring. J : Are you Taiwanese? Y：Yes. J : Do you believe in God? Y：I am not sure where the God is, we have different kind of Gods in Taiwan. No, maybe God is kind of idea. Not that real.

Yu, Cheng Ta ~ 1983 http://www.yuchengta.com/ 32

Sam Su 蘇育賢

In the CO-Q exhibition of 2008, curator Sam Su hit a great attention among all other young artists. Though now he has to face the graduation thesis for master degree, he still keeps an active way of living and doesn’t change his hilarious and critical personality. In the interview we had a great exchange of thinking towards Taiwan and Czech. He talked about how important music is in his life, what’s his attitude to his life, the interview itself was like a drama. In the constant laughs he tried to take the lead of speaking, it was a very impressive conversation experience.

曾經在2008年因為策劃CO-Q一展而聲名大噪的蘇育賢，面對學位論文壓力依然不改詼諧戲謔的本色，在一場台灣-捷克的交流會談中大談音樂對他創作、甚至於人生觀的影響，這次的訪談彷彿一次停不住的鬧劇，在充滿歡樂嘻笑聲之中企圖引導話語的蘇育賢，讓初次見面的訪談格外令人印象深刻。

J : I saw you for the first time in TNUA, you had the speech, as someone told me…about some Taiwanese identity and issue of young generation? S : No No No, I absolutely do not care about identity issue. Because how can we face this problem? You have to fight, walk on the street, you have to BITE the government…but you are not doing your own art. Art is very personal problem for me. And personal problem can get the strong power to influence some people.

Life is personal. The personal is bullshit, actually a lot of bullshits. Everyday I fuck up a lot of things. I go to bed very late, wake up very late. I am not able to see the sun over there. There is always darkness. But that is ok, I think that the life is a wonderful thing ONLY WITH ROCK n ROLL!!! Music is very important to me, especially the underground music of Taiwan. I do my art just because I am good at it. Actually I want be a rocker! I want to play guitar, but I have no talent and also have no

J：我第一次看到你是因為你在北藝大舉行的演講，有人告訴我，這個演講是與一些台灣人的自我認同和年輕世代的議題有關的？

情，像是我很晚才睡、早上老是睡太晚，導致我總是沒辦法看到日出，我的世界總是黑暗的。這些都還好啦，我覺得只有在擁有搖滾樂的時候生命才是一件美好的事物！音樂對我來說太重要了，特別是台灣的地下樂團。我創作我的藝術作品只因為我很擅長這麼做，不過事實上我想要當一個搖滾樂手啊！我想要玩吉他，但我對它沒有天分，也找不到合適的人一起組團。所以我創作我的藝術，我可以獨立完成它。

S : 不，我並不全然關心認同的議題。我們要如何面對這個問題？我們必須要走上街頭抗爭、搏鬥，我們必須要「狠咬」政府… 但這樣並不是在創作藝術。藝術對我而言應該是一個比較個人的問題，它應該要能夠創造出很強大的力量來影響一些人。生命是很個人的，但是這種個人性什麼也不是。我每天都在幹譙很多事 J : 所以，視覺藝術就是你用來傳 36

people whose are good at it. So I do art, I can do it by myself. J : Thus, visual art is your media. S: Art is my guitar. J: Mm, everything is finally about life right? Life is your art and art is your life. S: Yes, but why should I make art, or what am I looking for. I am trying to find the movement, as people are touched by rock & roll. They are just touched, also by every kinds of music…they understand. They feel. So I am trying to do my art like this…

J: Ok, Take it easy. So what about your group…WONDER BOYS. S: The guys are from another university…also…two of them study in Taipei, and another two including me in Tainan County. J: Do you have any concept? S: No. No concept. We are just friends, which are playing together so in the next time when you will arrive to Tainan, you can be singer, drummer or play guitar. We do not have any performance, any concerts…just for FUN.

達想法的媒介。

J : 好，我們簡單點來談。所以聊一下你的團體「萬德男孩」。

S : 藝術就是我的吉他。 S : 我們來自不同的大學…有兩個 J : 嗯，所有事情最後都跟生活有在台北念書，包括我的另外兩個關對吧？生活就是你的藝術而且在台南。藝術就是你的生活。 J : 你們有什麼創作理念嗎？ S : 對，不過更重要的是我為何而創作，還有我到底在找尋什麼。 S : 沒有，沒有什麼創作理念。我我試著去找一種律動，它蘊含的們就是一群玩在一起的朋友，所能量就像是人們可以被感動的搖以下次如果你來了台南，你就可滾樂一樣。他們就是被各種形式以成為主唱、鼓手或吉他手。我的音樂所觸動了…他們理解這一們沒有任何的表演或音樂會，就點。我就是試著想要讓我的藝術只是好玩而已。變成那樣。 37

J: Ok, you study plastic art right? And also you are writing, some art critic? S : The plastic art. I curated the show CO-Q only by myself. But the book, which we published last year was in collaboration with Prof. Huang. I wrote some critical, but the finally it is still for Fun. I was also impressed by YTA (Young Taiwan Artists) which is a copy of YBA (Young British Artists), I think it is funny because Taiwan has no damn right, to say hey we have the YTA, because we are not

actually the member of international word. So we are isolated, I think it is a kind of trick. Most of people have no confidence. Although we make art but we have no confidence. We simply pretend like we are confident. Teacher can teach students and he also shows a lot of theory or how to make art, or how to be a good artist. But the real situation is that maybe you have not any a chance to be an artists. I thought that we should show the yelling to those people, to show them- Some young people who say,

J : 你念造型藝術對吧？然後你是老師們可以教學生如何去創作，可以灌輸一大堆如何創作的理論不是也有寫一些藝術評論？給學生，也可以教學生怎樣變成 S : 我曾經策畫了CO-Q這個展，一個很好的藝術家，但是真正的但是在我們去年和黃建宏老師狀況是你可能根本沒有機會去當一起出版的那本書裡，我寫了一個藝術家。我想我們必須要對一些藝術評論…你知道，那只是世界喊話，告訴他們—嘿，我們因為好玩。另外我也對YTA印象是一群叫做YTA的年輕藝術家，很深，這個團體名字是抄襲了我們很棒、很有趣、而且很瘋 YBA…蠻有趣的，台灣沒權力去狂…這對我來說就是展覽最原初說我們有什麼YTA，因為我們根的有趣想法，讓那些老一輩的人本就不真正是世界的一部分。所們知道我們在這，而且在創作著以我們很孤立，我覺得這是件很更棒的藝術。弔詭的事情。即使我們可以創作藝術，但我們大多數人仍然很沒 J：你所關心的一些議題，像是有自信，只能假裝有自信而已。學生應該要如何被老師帶領，也 38

yeah we got this, we have YTA, we are good, funny, crazy whatever…. This just came to me an interesting initiative for the exhibition. Show people of the older generation that we have here a better art, as well. J : Also you are quite active, actually in some conclusion you disagree with this state, same like you touched the issue how student are leaded by professors. S : There are so many reasons, pretty much theory, you have to read a lot, you have to write. You just have

to do a work as such so that to let the professor say: It is very good. But the funniest thing is finally the teacher. Why he is still in the school. Because of he is not a good artist. J : Hm, yes, somebody can say that Who can do it, just do it. Who can not, just teach. But do not agree. To have a such a good professor, who believes in you, could bring much more. S : Yes but it is really difficult. Me, I just do not believe in the professors- even he is whatever he is. It

許你會否認，但你在這些議題中樣的說法完全正確，我們有一些很不錯的、願意相信學生能力的確實很活躍。老師，可以帶給我們更多更多。 S：總是有一大堆原因，一大堆理論，你必須要一直閱讀和一直 S：對，但是這真的很困難。我寫作。你必須要用那些老師交代並不相信老師們，不管他們是任的方式來做作品，這樣做出來的何人。另外一方面我也不相信畫東西才會被稱讚為很棒。但是最廊，我不相信任何一間畫廊。在有趣的仍然是老師的狀態…他們台灣畫廊的運作超糟糕的，有一為什麼在學校裡教書？因為他們些賣得很好的作品簡直是醜到爆不是好的藝術家。炸。所以我完全不信任老師和畫廊，當然我是指我自己。所以， J：嗯，對，有些人會說當你可我可以做任何的事情。以成為一個好藝術家時，你就會是個藝術家了，就是因為你不能 J：所以你很幸運。所以才來教書。但是我不認為這 39

I am famous...ok, what do you want? Ok i am somebody...or i am nobody...

is one case, and the other one is gallery, I also do not believe to any gallery. In Taiwan galleries work so badly. Go there to see some art which is good for sell, but sometimes is very ugly. So I do not believe to the professors and also to galleries, just to myself. Thus, I can do anything. J : So you are lucky. S : Am I lucky, no maybe there could be another situation, maybe If I were not a Taiwanese. What if I have been born in London, oh I would believe galleries. Or maybe New York?

But another thing is also, you reminded me, that in Taiwan we love theory! J : It is still maybe embarrassing going back to the issue of school, but I saw, how students learn western style? But just form without content… S : Yes, my interest is how to educate young generation our own theory also. Me and my friends, we are writing about ourselves, I write about them, and they about me. So we are trying to create some own

S：我幸運嗎？我並不覺得，應該要有別的可選擇的處境…如果我不是台灣人的話，如果我出生在倫敦的話，我絕對會相信畫廊的…或是紐約應該也一樣。對了你還提醒我一件事情，就是在台灣，我們為什麼這麼喜歡討論理論！

己的理論給年輕世代有很強烈的興趣。我和我的朋友正在寫一些關於自己的東西，我寫他們，他們寫我。所以我們試著想要用各種方式來創造一些我們自己的理論。就像日本動漫一樣，這些東西在我們的圈子裡是強而有力的…我們也寫了一個關於忍者如何打鬥的理論。所以我在做的事情其實就是這樣，嘗試去寫一些有興趣的主題，像是代溝的問題、沒有傳統、沒有內容的西方形式…等等。

J：這個問題可能就要回到尷尬的學院議題來討論了，不過就我看到的，你們一直在學習西方的創作形式？但是只有形式而不具內容…

S：當代藝術和在地的環境或傳 S：對，我對於如何教導我們自統中有一個斷裂，我們只是學習 42

theory in many different ways. It is very powerful in our level, like Japanese Manga, From this, we also made one theory about Ninja…how to fight. So I am trying to do it like this…write some articles. Generation gap problem, no tradition…western form, no content--S : It is the problem of the gap between contemporary art and local environment, or some tradition. We are just learning, and copy some principals. But here in Taiwan is so difficult. We were not born in tradi-

tional society, in some normal environment, where there are some natural accesses to the rules. Actually, we were born in computers, phones and with western lifestyle. But not with some history, we lost it. J : And do people know about it? Do they realize that? S : Yes, but most of them are ignore this situation. And the young generation is not able to become be a local. For me, here is nothing local, as well. But we are not also any western people, how come, because we

和複製一些原則。但是在台灣這真的很困難，我們並不是出生在傳統社會中或是某些擁有自然的準繩或規則的環境。事實上，我們根本與電腦、手機和一大堆西方生活方式連結在一塊，但不包括歷史，我們失去了自己的歷史。

地的，但是我們也不可能是西方人，因為我們就是亞洲人。 J：你覺得你的藝術能為一般人帶來什麼嗎？

S：我想是可以的，但也許他們並不明白我為什麼要做這些看起來像垃圾一樣的東西。我也一直 J：那你覺得台灣人知道這些事在問我自己，這些東西是不是沒嗎？他們理解嗎？有幫助的，他們並不是現實。但當我之後看到我們的錄影和音樂 S：他們一定知道，只是大多數時我必須說：哇，這些東西太棒人選擇忽略這種處境。年輕一了。代的人們無法變成在地的居民。對我而言，在台灣沒有什麼是在 J：你對普通的解釋是什麼？ 43

are really different- Asian. J : Do you think that your art could be for normal people? S : Yes I think so. But maybe they do not understand why am I doing some bullshit like this. I am also asking to myself, this is not helpful, it is not reality. But after that, I see our video and music and I just have to say: “wow, this is wonderful”. J : What does it mean normal? S : It means that there is no sense. Our group Wonder boys started from the dancing group. We had im-

itation of the one famous song Nobody from the group Wonder girls. So now you see why we became to be an art group. J : Do you think that you are famous? S: No, I am not famous, but I am funny. I love some friends and some friends love me as well. But I know about one think, some people hate me. J : Are you Taiwanese S : Yes, I am Taiwanese. J : Do you believe in God?

S：它的意思是沒有概念。我們的萬德男孩團一開始是個跳舞團體，我們模仿了一些熱門歌，像是Wonder girls的Nobody。然後現在你看到我們變成一個藝術團體。

S：是的。 J：你是否相信上帝？

S：有些時候會，像是我很窮的時候、沒有錢的時候或著我生病的時候，我就會向上帝祈禱請他多給我一些錢、讓我變超富有或 J：你覺得你們很受歡迎嗎？是超健康。但只有在那些時候我 S：不，我並不覺得，但我覺得才相信，所以它一向都不會實我很有趣。我喜歡很多朋友，這現。但我還在嘗試。些朋友也一樣的喜歡我。但我知道一件事情，就是也有人很討厭我。 J：你是台灣人嗎？ 44

S : Sometimes, when I am so poor, I do not have any money, or I am sick, I will pray to God, give me more, let me be rich or healthy. But just at that moment. But it did not work. But I am still trying.

Sam Su ~ 1982 http://susam921.blogspot.com/ http://www.wretch.cc/blog/nofearsam921/ 45

Tsui Kuang Yu 崔廣宇

Because how he wonders about everything all the time, so I simply follow his thinking in the interview. In the end he explained to me that for him art is not everything. He proudly calls his videos “actions” and creates the new situations among the old ones. Wherever his imagination goes, he tries to make them real. He is very serious person and smiling in an ironic way. He is often considered a funny guy because of his funny videos. These actions are merely understood by the surface which makes him quite sad in the end. But he is not afraid of his videos being misunderstood at all. He is more than his videos, and he is constantly moving and becoming something else and he hopes that will be the solution to the problem.

此次的採訪簡單的順著藝術家的思緒走，正因為這次的受訪藝術家---崔廣宇對世界的想像是如此天馬行空。在結束前崔廣宇解釋著，對他來說，藝術不是萬能的，「我的影像作品是作為一個『行動』而存在，並在新舊作品中創造出新的態勢」，他自豪的說。無論他的想像是如何在跑，他都會試著去實踐。崔廣宇作品中的有趣元素常使他被認定為一個有趣的傢伙，但其實他是個嚴肅的人，加上帶著一個具有諷刺意味的笑容。雖然每當他的影像作品被人僅從表面去理解時會感到難過，不過現在的他並不害怕他的影片被誤解。藝術家的「人本身」更大於他的作品。崔廣宇不斷移動，成為別的東西---他希望這最終將是解決這個問題的方式。

J：Can you talk about the main idea you want to convey through your artwork? T：I think it’s very important to ask people to learn something about the environment, where they live, where they stay. For example now we stay in Taipei, you have to adapt yourself to here. So you develop some new approach or attitude to do something. I think, that is very important for me, because when I was a student, I did something, it was nonsense and when I graduated I went to military, you can find kind of similar attitude about…ok when people …when I go deep into the

society system you need to face to some serious things, how to make in your life, how to earn money, how to …you will find many ridiculous things exists in this society system. So what can you do and how to raise your question, how to ask, how to make fun, otherwise you will drown in the reality life. I can not lie to you. Hm, this is serious topic. J：That’s fine. Then what about your international experience? T：I have one experience in London, ok people in London are quite busy, but generally I realized that in Europe you are slow. J: Really? How to say that?

J：能否談談，你希望透過作品課題：如何在你的生活中加入這個既有制度、如何賺錢、如何如傳達出什麼訊息? 何…你會發現許多可笑的事情存 T：我認為去要求人們學習一些在於這個社會制度。所以，「你關於自身環境的事物是非常重可以作什麼」與「如何去提出問要的，他們在這個環境中居住、題」、「怎麼使生活有樂趣」就置身其中。例如現在我們住在台成為必須思考的問題，否則就會北，你就必須去適應這裡。所以被淹沒在現實生活中。我不能騙你自己會開發一些新的方法或態你，嗯，這是個嚴肅的課題。度去做事情。我覺得這對我來說是非常重要的，因為當我還是個 J：沒關係。那麼，來談談你的學生時，我也常做一些沒甚麼意國際經驗？義的事；但在畢業後去當兵時，我發現一種類似的態度，好比說 T：我有一個在倫敦的經驗。在當人們…當我真正進入這個社會倫敦人們都很忙碌，但一般來體制，就開始要面對一些嚴肅的說，在歐洲時人的步調都會放 48

T：I remember the one story: One guy was supposed to help me with a project, so I had to manage appointment with the leader of workshop. I needed only 10 min for one week. They told me, ok, you come here next time, next week…I was like: What? I couldn’t do anything in this way, so I sent my plan with some drawing back to Taipei and asked my friend to make it for me. So I think that people in Taiwan are very busy, they are running over the whole day to make money because the payment is not so much. J：Yes but all the time I hear here like, I am very busy, I am very busy,

sometimes I also find Europe’s living style easier. The atmosphere, nobody cares, tempo is different. Take France as example, I have now lunchtime…2 hours. T：I really hate this. I got bad experience. At first time I had solo show in Berlin, and German people are quite…in some cases very serious they will finish everything, so everything was done properly. But when I went to France, Paris, it is very difficult to find right person to do right thing. T：And it was much more expensive. I hate it. So that is the reason

慢。

作。

J：真的嗎？怎麼說?

J：對呀在這裡我總是聽到人們在說：我好忙，我好忙。有時我也覺得在歐洲的生活方式更隨意。那裡的氣氛，沒有人趕時間，那個速度感是不同的。以在法國為例，我都吃兩小時的午餐。

T：我記得一件事：有個人本來要幫我做個計畫，所以我必須安排與這個工作坊的負責人會面。其實我只需要十分鐘去處理那星期的事，但他們卻告訴我下次、下星期再來。我當時想：什麼? 我不能用這樣的方式做事情。所以我直接把這個計畫與圖檔寄回台灣請我的朋友幫我處理。從這件事可以知道在台灣，人們都非常忙碌，正因為薪水不是很高，所以人們必須一整天都忙於工

T：我真的很討厭這一點。關於這個我有個不愉快的經驗。當我第一次在柏林辦個展，德國人是相當…從某方面來說非常嚴肅，他們會完成一切，任何事都會做得很好。但當我到法國時，在巴 49

why I don’t want to apply the residence program in Paris. J：Mm, I think, nobody cares that you have to wait for two weeks. T: Oh, I do not know, I had also other bad experience, but I am not angry, I just realized that is kind of interesting, maybe funny for me. We are all human being and you know… J：So, you traveled quite a lot, right? I mean compare to other artists here in Taiwan. T: No, I don’t travel a lot. People said oh you are going very often to some residency program you must be a person who like travel around the

world. But if I travel, I stay mostly in Europe and seldom moving around. J：If somebody from here goes abroad, it is mostly to America right? T：Yes, because Taiwanese are, it is my opinion, but we’re like a colony of America. We had been colony of Japan, China-Ching dynasty,Ming dynasty, Spain, Portugal ….now America , so always people say just go to America, because it is a paradise…blah blah blah…Now is getting better, people know what is true and what is the reality. But New York is little bit different, it is almost like in Europe, you can meet a lot of dif-

黎是很難找到對的人去作對的事 J：所以，你經常旅行對嗎？我情。是指跟其他的台灣藝術家比起來。 T：而且在巴黎生活物價非常昂貴。我討厭這一點。這就是為什 T：沒有，我不常旅行。人們總麼我不想申請在巴黎的駐村。是說我常去駐村，一定是個愛到處旅行的人。但如果我出國，就 J：嗯，我想，應該沒人會在意幾乎都待在歐洲，很少去其他地你必須多等兩個星期。方。 T：喔，我不知道，我還有其他不愉快的經驗，但我並不感到生氣，我後來明瞭到這甚至是種有趣的事情，對我來說。畢竟我們都是人，你知道…

J：如果在台灣有人要出國，多半都是去美國對嗎？ T：是的，因為台灣人是，這是我的看法，我們有點像是美國的殖民地。我們曾經是許多國家的

ferent people, different languages, habits…etc. Now people might go more often to Europe, but you came here. T：What do students usually do after they graduate in Prague? They become artists or go to some museums, galleries, how about the art community or support? J：In my opinion, many students don’t know what to do after school, for some graduated entering a totally different field. Of course some of them become artist and they are talented during the study and were actively involved in forming of the contemporary art scene, but that

is probably everywhere same, the percentage is small. The art scene going seems to be same here compare with Czech as well. T：That’s the point, I always ask, how many artists we are going to have here in Taiwan, quite active, most of them disappear, so that’s going to be very serious question, what ‘s so good of this kind of study. The students won’t think about it, for future, they just study, but now some of them are quite practical, if they are going to have the decision to stay and become to be an artists, they are quite active, they do their best.

殖民地：日本、中國清朝、明朝、西班牙、葡萄牙…現在則像是美國。所以人們總是說要去美國，因為那是個天堂…等等諸如此類，現在的情況有比較好了，人們慢慢開始知道什麼是真的，什麼是現實。但紐約比較特殊，它幾乎像是在歐洲，在紐約你可以遇到各種不同的人、不同的語言、習慣等等…現在人們可能更經常到歐洲，但妳選擇來台灣。

支持的狀況如何？ J：我想許多學生畢業後都會感到茫然，當他們從學校畢業要進入一個完全不同的世界。當然有些人會成為藝術家，而且這些從學生時期就活躍的人才也會積極參與建構當代藝術的面貌。但能成為這樣的人所佔的比例很小，這大概是在全世界藝術學院都會遇到的問題。似乎在台灣和捷克也會面臨一樣的情況。

T：在布拉格的學生從藝術學院畢業後通常會從事什麼工作呢? T：這就是問題的重點，我總是他們會成為藝術家還是去博物館在問，在台灣，我們到底需要多或畫廊？那邊的藝術機構或贊助少個藝術家？很明顯的，其中的 51

J：This is why I like here. In some incidents, artists are quite active in many fields. Not just in art, but in culture issues generally, environmental, social …. T：Yes but the culture development is not important here. People won’t think about it. Economy is much more important because we have to earn money. We have to take care about our living. It is different with the culture in Europe, where you can stay face to face with culture issues, its much deeper, they are historically richer .I think that’s about the culture soul- I can call it like this, in

Taiwan is not so much, very little. J：When I saw some videos, I liked those little mistakes, you are in the frame, and after the action you go out, but sometimes there is a tree, or somebody…or it ceased to operate… T：Somebody says, it is performance, for me it is action, ok I can do it more often, but it won’t be the same, those mistakes make each of them unique. You won’t have exactly the same video twice. So that when I call it action video I am very serious to say that, sometimes I can do it just twice and disappear, I move

多數都將會消失或被淘汰，所以這會成為很嚴重的問題。但學生不會去思考這個問題，只會為了將來而埋頭學習，其實這很值得去探討。但現在有些學生會開始做實際的考量，如果他們決定要繼續下去並成為一個藝術家，就會積極的盡全力做到最好。

視文化發展。人們不會想到這個。只會覺得經濟發展是最重要的，因為大家都想要賺錢。我們必須去重視生活本身。這跟歐洲的文化是不同的，在歐洲你就身處在文化議題之中，那裡的歷史內涵豐富得多。我想這可以被稱為一種「文化靈魂」，這種氛圍在台灣是很少能感受到的。

J：這就是我喜歡這裡的原因。這裡的藝術家對很多事件都採取積極的態度。不只是在藝術領域，在文化、環境、社會議題等等…中也是一樣。

J：當觀看你的影像作品時，我喜歡影片裡的小小突發狀況，有時你會在鏡頭內，然後作完動作後就離開，或有時會有棵樹或不相關的人，或是突然停止拍攝等 T：沒錯，但是這裡並不真的重等… 54

to somewhere else, I can’t do it anymore. J：Somebody says that it could be an urban design. T：I hope it could be kind of urban design, but others might not agree with it. They don’t want to see that. For me is a kind of suggestion or sample, when people watch the video, they could start to change their imagination, attitude…to everything. So I hope, that could be like this. Most of people tell me, congratulation because it is funny, but ok, is the first level, the surface only. J：But I can sense that you’re not satisfied with this kind of compli-

ment. T：I got the same feeling when I watched the Japanese manga or cartoon. I like manga because the story is completely similar to my video. It seems like comedy or irony. Just make fun of people and make them laugh, but eventually I felt very sad and almost started to cry. Because the guy, the hero was going to tell something - the truth is this in our society. The story is about Japanese superman, but there’s something different, the monsters-bad guys are ugly but very friendly and try their best to live in society but they are always defeated by the superman.

T：有人說我的影像作品是個表演，但對我來說那是種行動，好，也許我可以在影片中作更多，但那永遠不會是一樣的，其中的每個小意外都使那支影片獨一無二。你不會有一模一樣的影片出現第二次。所以我是非常嚴肅的去指稱我的影像作品為「行動影片」，有時我可能只作兩次然後就消失到別的地方，因為我就是不能再繼續作了。

畫沒錯，但有些人可能不這麼想。他們不喜歡這些影片。對我來說這些影像作品是種提議或是種樣本，當人們在觀看作品時，也許會開始改變他們想像力運作的方式、態度…甚至一切。所以我希望最好的狀況是像這樣。很多人會因為我影片中有趣的效果而跟我說恭喜，但…好，這是第一種層次，只是剛開始從表面上來看而已。

J：有人說你的影像作品是種關 J：不過我可以感覺到你不滿意於城市的計畫。像這樣的恭維。 T：我希望它是種關於城市的計 T ：當我在看日本漫畫或卡通 55

He has just the face he is very handsome and he represents the justice but what exactly is justice? It is the big question. I like this kind of story. J：But in your videos you look very serious. T：Actually I am very serious person, this is very good experience about the interviews, Two years ago I won an art price in Taiwan and some classical music radio wanted to interview me and the host said, how my videos are so funny, but I most felt that she wanted to meet the funny guy. Unfortunately, eventually she found that I am not that funny guy. I am serious and always

talking about serious issues in very way. And as you said, you felt sad with my videos, there is another level in my work. But they don’t want to go there. Sometimes it is not their expectation. J：Did somebody tell you that your art could be political? T：I never heard of it, I don’t think that it could be defined as political art. Yes, everything is political. How to define political art is also a big question. The Yes men’s work is political art, but they won’t agree with this maybe…I don’t know, for me is the most important to define for myself…

時，跟看我的影片有一樣的感覺。我喜歡日本漫畫因為裡面的故事很像我的影像作品，帶有一種喜劇或諷刺的味道。雖然一開始看起來像是在做些滑稽的事使觀眾發笑，但到最後我卻難過到想哭。因為這裡面的英雄角色是要告訴我們，一種存在於我們社會中的真實。這故事是關於一個日本超人，但劇情跟平常的超人片不太相同，裡面的負面角色，怪獸雖然醜陋但是卻很友善，盡力想在這個社會中生存，但牠們總被超人所擊敗。「超人」代表了英俊與正義，但到底什麼是正義？這是個大哉問。我喜歡像這

種類型的故事。 J：但在作品中你看起來很嚴肅。 T：其實我是個非常嚴肅的人，這次的訪問就讓我感到滿自在的。兩年前我在台灣得了一個藝術獎項，於是有個古典音樂電台想要訪問我。那個主持人不斷跟我說我的影片有多有趣，讓人覺得她期望著我也是個有趣的人。但很不幸的，到最後她終於發現我不是個有趣的人。我很嚴肅，總是認真的用各種方式討論嚴肅的議題。就像你說的，看完我的

J：Yes but I thought if some moments of videos looks very critical, if is a proposal. This belongs to the previous question. T：That’s the point, if you would like to consider like this, that would be…but anyway, you have to live, do something, and make your own decision. J：Are you Taiwanese? T：Yes. J：If you believe in God, or any religion or Gods? T：I don’t have any religions but my mom has. I go to temple very often, I am more like Thaoish, but for me it is

not exactly religion and it means in Chinese, the road…kind of way, yes… to find solution, to think about how to solve problem so its very simple. You have to think about this question every day. So that’s I said…in the beginning, I can’t stop thinking. Why you asking? J：It started very simply, I do know who I am but when I ask people in Taiwan if they are Taiwanese. It’s a difficult question. T：If somebody going to tell this is very difficult, yes the background is complicated in behind. What they say the difficult means the resolve. I

影片你會感到悲傷，這是另一種存在我作品中的層面。但很多人不想去想那麼多，有時候這反而不符合他們的期望。

J：的確，但我認為在你的影片中常具有很強的批判性，如果如同你提過的，對你來說這些影像作品是種提議，這就屬於政治性的問題了。

J：有人說過你的作品帶有政治 T：這的確是問題所在。如果你性嗎？從這個角度來看我的作品，會 T：我沒有聽過這種說法，我不是...但無論如何，你必須要繼續認為我的作品可被定義為政治藝生活，去完成一些事，自己做決術。的確，任何事都具有政治定。性，要去定義什麼是政治藝術也是一大問題。Yes men的作品被認 J：你是台灣人嗎？為是政治藝術，但也許他們並不認同…我不知道，對我來說最重 T：是。要的是如何定義自己。 57

think that people have to open their eyes and mind to put themselves to higher position so that they can look at thing as a whole. The whole Taiwan, the whole Asian…global issue, human-being issue, it is not only about Taiwanese. It is very necessary to me. Sometimes when I am invited by friends to go for a speech to some university it is just talking, chatting but I always say you have to open your eyes to see, not only watch the TV, you know the TV is very bad I mean the Taiwanese channels. We never report the international news just Taiwanese. The news in Taiwan in Asia is not international. You have

to take care, of course it is nothing to do with you but somehow it is wrong. We are linked to each other in some ways which are very subtle. It is butterfly effect. You need to have the other influences, sometimes you can find obviously visible link, but sometimes not, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exists. So yes, I believe in this kind of theory.

J ：你相信上帝或有任何信仰是誰，但當我在台灣問人們「你是台灣人嗎？」，這對有些人來嗎？說似乎是個難以回答的問題。 T：我本身沒有任何宗教信仰，但我母親有。我也常常去廟宇， T：如果有人說這個問題很難回其實比較偏向道教。但對我來說答，這是有複雜的背景原因的，這不全然是種宗教信仰，在中國難以回答也是種回答。我認為，思想中，像是一種道路，一種指人們必須打開他們的眼睛和心引，對…思考如何尋找一個解決胸，將自己提到視野更高的位問題的方法，所以其實非常單置，用一種整體的觀點來看待純。你必須每天都尋找解決之事物。整個台灣，整個亞洲...全道，就像我說的，從一開始我就球性的議題，有關全體人類的議無法停止思考。你為什麼會問這題，這不僅僅是台灣人的問題而個問題？已。這對我來說是非常必要的。有時候，我會接受朋友的邀請到 J：一開始很單純。我很清楚我大學演講，雖然只是彼此聊聊， 58

但我總是會說，你們要真正打開眼睛去看，而不僅是看電視而已。妳知道台灣的電視節目都很糟糕，幾乎沒有國際的新聞報導，只有台灣發生的事情。不論在台灣還是亞洲的新聞都很不具國際性。妳也要留意，雖然這與妳無關，但這樣的做法是錯誤的。世界上的人們都在一種微妙的牽引下聯繫在一起，這是種蝴蝶效應。你必須去找到其他影響的因素，有時你可以找到顯而易見的連結，有時，不能不代表不存在。所以對，我相信這個理論。

Tsui, Kuan Yu ~ 1974 http://www.eslitegallery.com/ 59

Tseng Yu Chin 曾御欽

The interview began with “a little bit more positive ” then with “a little less negative” form. But apparently emerging coolness always exists in the interview. He performed his point “every kind of feeling is so good and so important.” As an autodidact in the beginning he was satisfied with istallation movie. He definitely didn’t know what video means and strongly didn‘t know that he will go just as the one of the few artists in Taiwan to Documenta Kassel and probably didn’t know how come the experience in the end become exhausting and sad. He wishes to go back in the beginning to the pure desire for creativity but in the end he can see himself in his own hostel which he will buy after ten years (now he saves the money) and tell a lot of stories.

整個訪談的開始是充滿積極正面的感覺，後來卻慢慢變得有點消極沮喪，但顯然在採訪的過程中他希望維持比較酷的樣子。在他表達他的觀點時，他對每個自己內心感覺都十分的重視。作為一個自學成才的創作者，他沉浸在裝置電影的環境裡。那時的他完全不知道什麼影像的意義，也不會知道他將會是少數參加卡塞爾文獻展的台灣創作者，也不知道為什麼到後來創作路上會變得很疲憊和悲傷。他希望可以回到一開始創作時的單純，希望十年後可以買一間旅館，並在那講一些老故事。

J：You were also one participant in The Bubble tea exhibition in Czech Republic, can you tell us about this experience. T：I didn’t go there, I wish I could but I didn’t. It’s quite a long time ago. The president of the museum really liked my works. He told me that they are different compare to other artists. They are not obvious, you have to look for while and think about what have you seen. And after you will feel what is there inside my works. J：Do you agree with what he said? T: Yes I don’t like to talk about my

work very clearly. Everything is not so obvious I like things which are very gentle, soft and curved. J：Do you think that eventually people are able to get to the main point? T: Sometimes a correct understanding about the main point that is not really important to me. Because how people feel when they see the video or what cause their thinking after seeing my works are the most important things. The real, the true story is very beautiful. For example, when a pregnant woman gives birth of her child and that process is only for that woman because she has to

J：你也是到捷克聯展的成員之明的，我還比較傾向以溫、軟、一，說一下你對那次的想法吧！曲折的方式看事情。 T：雖然我很想，但我人沒有到捷克。這是很久以前的展覽了，館長很喜歡我的作品，他覺得在那次的展覽中很具異質性。他說這種特質不是一看作品馬上就會發現的，你必須花時間思索，然後去想你去過哪裡，才會知道我作品的內涵是什麼。

J：你覺得人們最終能體會你的重點嗎？

T：有時，對作品的「正確」認識對我來說並不是那麼重要。而是他們為何被感動，被什麼東西感動？真正的，真實的故事很美麗。例如，當一個孕婦生下她的孩子，這個過程只對那個孕婦有意義，因為她經歷一切。我認為 J：你同意他說的話嗎？這個例子同樣可以說明藝術家的 T：我並不喜歡那麼清楚的解釋經驗，但我不認為有必要讓大家我的作品，每件事不都是那麼分那麼確切的知道重點在哪，對我 62

feel everything. I think this same feeling is in artists’ case, but I don’t think it is necessary for everyone to know the main point if they know what is there exactly, that won’t be interesting to me. J：That’s quite good, the approach. I am curious about the leading line that you have in your videos, children, still children. Did you try it with adult? T：In my new project I am going to try different ages of children. At the first time people thought that I use children without any purpose, but I don’t like child, if there are many children at the same time it’s going

to be very noisy, but I like to mix everything just in one character. So I used children to explain how I feel about the family, about the society… in one character, but now I would like to try different age of characters or say different kind of things. J：What about the experience of working with children? T：Working wit children is a nice experience. Even though I don’t like them but working with them is very nice, they are very good listener, they trust you easily. I don’t like to work with adult, BECAUSE they don’t easily believe in you. Why do you want to do this? They criticize every-

來說這不會很有意思。

在我想嘗試不同的年齡或不同類型的東西。

J：這種方式相當不錯。我很好奇你作品中的脈絡，這件作品拍 J：那說說你和小孩子一起拍攝兒童，下件作品還是兒童。您是作品的經驗吧。否嘗試過成人的拍攝？ T：那個經驗很不錯，雖然我並 T：在我的新計劃中我會嘗試不不是很喜歡小孩子，但是與他們同年齡的兒童。在一開始，人們合作是非常好的，他們是很好還以為我是沒有任何緣由的以小的聽眾，也很信任你，就這點而孩為主題，但實際上我並不喜歡言，我不喜歡與成人工作，因為小孩，如果有許多小朋友碰在一他們不容易產生信任。「你為什起，那會很吵，但我喜歡把一切麼要這麼做？」他們什麼東西都混合在一個角色裡面。所以，我批評。有時你可以從他們身上看用同樣一個角色：孩子，來解釋到真正的人性。我對家庭，對社會的看法，但現 63

thing. Sometimes you can see real humanity there. J：But it is quite contracted to what you said. You like to hide a lot of things, make it looks complicated, but children represents clear and easy on the other hand. T：It is just a kind of cover, if I think about it. I think I am very serious person and a lot of things to me are very dark with sadness. I don’t like to show my real feeling, so I use the children is to cover it. I want to make people feel that I am a little bit strange, a little bit sad, a little bit crazy, but not the huge sadness. Ev-

erything there is for a cover. Colors, form… J：There could be sometimes two opposite extremes. Still in the works it is so cold, white is freezing and the darkest one you hardly can find anything. Did you have a bad childhood? T：Kind of…I had different childhood, in Taiwan some children are just like me, my mom is a teacher and father is a soldier. Everything was so strict, under the control…the time for eat, read, do your exercise… My parents wanted me to have my life like the others. But I obviously

J：作品有時會出現兩個相反的 J：但是這與你說的話似乎有所牴觸：你想隱藏很多事，使它看極端。在作品中包含如此寒冷、起來比較複雜，但，另一方面，凍結的層面，而最黑暗的那頭則什麼都看不見和你幾乎可以找到兒童代表清晰和單純。任何東西。你有一個不好的童年 T：這只是一種掩蓋，我想想，嗎？我覺得我是很嚴肅的人，很多事情對我來說是非常黑暗與悲傷。 T：可以這麼說...我有不同的童我不喜歡顯示自己的真實感受，年，在台灣，有些孩子和我一所以我使用兒童是為了去掩蓋樣，我的媽媽是老師，父親是軍它。我希望讓人們覺得我有點人。一切是那麼嚴格，在控制怪，有點難過，有點瘋狂，但不之下...吃的時候，閱讀，去做運是巨大的悲傷。你所看到影像上動...我的父母希望我的生命和大的東西都是為了遮蓋，顏色、形家一樣。但我顯然沒有達到他們式... 的期望。我不喜歡被取笑，我不知道。那時我開始做一些影片和 64

failed their wish. I don’t like to make fun of myself, I don’t know. By that time I started to make some videos and video installations. They were very violent, for example, I tried to kill a alive fish and then simply throw it back to the water, kill the life…I didn’t like this world. After two or three these kind of movies I felt very tired. Nobody wanted to listen to it. I realized that its better to say just a little bit and not so violent because it’s the my background, so I turned it a little bit also to make my life a little bit easier. J：Is seems to be a kind of therapy your videos…

T：Yes, because during my study before college I was a cook and in the college I studied design. So it was totally different, I wanted to do something for myself, so I started with photography, and later I was more interested in image. I was depressed, so that’s the reason. I started with art to cure myself. In college some professors put me into the art school. It was fine. I thought I can do what I want. When I was curious about the movie-making, they told me you should do the video. I didn’t know what it is, all of the education what I learned about image was by myself, I don’t care about

設計科系。所以這是完全不同的，我想為自己做些事，所以我開始攝影，後來我對影像更感興趣。我當時很沮喪，所以我開始以藝術來治療自己。一些大學的教授開始幫我用進藝術學校。這很好，因為我可以做我想做的。當我開始好奇電影製作，他們告訴我你應該做影像。我不知道它是什麼，所有的教育過程中所學到的影像是自學的，而我也不關 J：這樣看來你的作品似乎是一心歷史，但我必須很辛苦的去讀那些我不愛的，所以我完全糊塗種治療...... ..，但最後我決定關照我自己就 T：是的，因為在上大學之前我好。我不是真正要去做藝術，我是一名廚師，上了大學後我讀真的不想做所謂的「藝術」。而影像裝置。那些作品很暴力，例如，我試圖殺死一個活著的魚，然後簡單地扔回到水中，殺死生命，我不喜歡這個世界。這類的作品我做了兩三年開始覺得很疲倦。沒有人關注。我意識到，不如只表達一點，不要那麼激烈，因為那些是來自於我的背景，所以這樣調整也使我的生活變得容易一些。

history but I had to learn hardly so I was totally confused, but finally I decided to care just about myself and don’t care about anything else. I am not really trying to do art, I really don’t want to do THE ART, just what I really want to do. And if you do it honestly, the audience will give you feed back. J：Did it help you with your depression? T：I think yes, I met a lot of people, and in fact you can not do everything you want. The knowledge is good to show you how important it is to learn how to do. J：I mean, if it was before maybe

more clear or innocent. T：In this time I really want to go back to the beginning when nothing happened. First time when I got some prizes and went also to Documenta, I felt totally unhappy, everyone was just curious, how much I got and my prize. And a lot of things was changed I had to be very careful about what am I telling, etc…It was exhausting, so I really want to go back to the time before this. So If I work with children I show what is real, what is really inside you. J：Where are you going now? T：I teach in the school and telling to my students a lot, what hap-

是我真正想做的事。如果你對自有發生的一開始。第一次當我得己誠實，你會從觀眾那裡得到回到了一些獎和文件展的邀約，我覺得完全不快樂，大家只是好奇饋。我得到了多少錢。而且很多事情 J ：這樣做有助於你的憂鬱症都已經不一樣了，我必須非常小心我說了什麼等等...這讓我筋疲嗎？力盡，所以我真的想回去之前的 T ：我想是的，我遇到了很多時光。所以，如果我與孩子工作人，其實你不能做到所有你想要就可以表現什麼是真的，什麼是做的。知識可以幫助你知道哪些真正在心裡想的。事情是重要的。 J：接下來有甚麼計劃嗎？ J：我的意思是，如果是以前的話，可能更清楚或單純。 T：我在學校任教，告訴學生很多我的故事。而且我告訴自己工 T：現在我真的想回到什麼都沒作了10年之後，我會去鄉下買下 68

pens in real life. I work on my new work, and told to myself for 10 years and after I will go to country side to buy hotel and start café shop. I made a lot of work and still working, because some audiences want my works, so I do some for them. After ten years, they will look for somebody younger…so I really want to wake up from this dream. Now I am saving money for this. And after I will do what I want only. I miss the moment, when we were just showing our works not in galleries, but everywhere, it was so clean. Now it’s a lot of exhibitions in galleries…now in Taipei. I don’t hate

galleries, but I need to find some balance. J：You are Taiwanese? T：Yes. J：Do you believe in something? God, religion… T：I believe Buddha, now and I believe when I get old I will have a lot of stories to tell . A lot of things happened, different things, You don’t have regret. So I think that would be great to tell it.

一間旅館，開一間咖啡店。我做了很多作品，但我持續在做，因為有些觀眾想要我的作品，所以我為他們做一些。經過10年，他們會去尋找年輕的藝術家...所以我真的想從這場夢中醒來。現在我為此省錢。之後我會只做我想要的事。我懷念那個當我們只是展我們的作品而無關買賣，但現在這件事情無處不在，以錢的動機是那麼乾淨。我有很多的展覽約在台北的畫廊。我不討厭畫廊，但我需要找到某種平衡點。

T：是。

J：你是台灣人嗎？

J：請問你有任何信仰嗎？ T：我信佛，現在我相信當我老了，我將有很多故事可說。我累積了很多不同的故事，沒有遺憾。因此，我認為講這些事是很好的。

Tseng, Yu Chin ~ 1978 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oxyspot 69

Lin Hong John 林宏璋

Hong-john is one of the most easy-going teachers in TNUA. At least, in our opinion, he is very down-to-earth and willing to talk to the students. However, since we were both too loose in having conversations the interview in the end looks like a dialogue happened in the ten minutes break between classes. Busy as he is, he still catches every moment in the campus trying to keep abreast with what’s happening, though sometimes we also wondering if he really gets what we’re doing now. We hesitated in whether to put this short conversation into the book or not, maybe it’s not so bad to reveal a bit of it.

林宏璋是北藝大裡最隨和的老師之一，至少對我們來說，他非常親切而且喜歡跟學生聊天；不過也可能因為我們都太放鬆了所已訪談變得很鬆散，看起來就很像某個下課十分鐘的對話。雖然老師非常忙碌，但他還是很珍惜所有待在學校的時間也很關心我們都在做些甚麼，雖然有時候我們也不知道老師是不是都能理解。是否要把這段訪談收錄進書裡我們也考慮了很久，但或許也能夠呈現出訪談不同的一面所以還是節錄了。

J︰What is your job? H︰I am a teacher in art school, I am an artist, I am also a curator, I write… I consider all that as my job. I have quite a lot of different works. J︰If you are also an artist, what is your interest? H︰I am quite interested in telling the story through my work. I like to work on stories and narratives. I am not interested in the content of the story but rather how story is told or who tells the story. That’s different kind of position when telling the

story. People may say that’s very political but for me still about the story and its position. J︰Don’t you think it’s quite canny? You like the stories but you don’t care about the content. H︰Yes, I think I have to make a very general comment, that generally speaking I love stories. J︰What do you think about this project? H︰I don’t know, I think I like it. What interested me the most is that, you guys come all the way to Taiwan,

J︰請形容一下你的工作。

喜歡討論故事和其中的立場。

H︰我是學校老師、藝術家、策 J︰這樣不會顯得有點狡猾嗎?你展人、我也寫作，我覺得這些都喜歡故事但你並不很在意它的內是我的工作，看來我的工作類型容。還蠻多元的。 H︰是啊。我想我該說得普通 J︰如果你也是藝術家，你的興點，整體來說我喜歡故事。趣是什麼呢? J︰你覺得我們的計劃怎麼樣呢? H︰我還蠻喜歡透過作品說故事的，我喜歡研究故事和敘事，我 H︰不知道，我想我喜歡。這個並非著眼於故事的內容，而事故計劃讓我感興趣的地方在於你大是如何被說還有是誰來說，這是老遠從捷克跑來，把自己當成一以說故事來看不同的立場，可能個外國人，你在做這個計劃的時會有人說這樣太政治性但我還是候完全把自己當成一個外人，你 72

and you really treat yourself as foreigners. You are making the project from a totally outsider position. You assumed yourselves as the Other. Most of people when they go to another country they want to be like locals. For example, people always say “When in Rome, do as Romans.” One tries to assimilate himself into the new place. But in your project you want to be like foreigners. That’s the most interesting part. J︰Last semester we were talking about the 07’s Venice Biennial

Taiwan Pavilion. How’s the experience? H︰It was a very exciting work, but it is my also one of my jobs. That means whether you love it or not you have to complete it. But I can say I love my job, I like to negotiate with artists and develop the work together. I think it is wonderful. To be in Venice, it is very competitive Bienalle. Venice is the first Bienalle ever. Be in that position as the curator for Taiwan is a honerable thing.

預設這個計劃裡有個大他者。一般人到外國去住的時候總會想把自己和當地同化，比如我們說「入境隨俗」，人會想學習或融入一個新的地方，但在這計劃裡總是能看到你們就是外人，這個很有趣。

我還蠻愛我的工作的，我喜歡和藝術家協商如何呈現展覽，我覺得這很棒，像威尼斯雙年展這麼有競爭力的展覽，它可是全世界第一個雙年展，能去那裡為台灣策展我覺得很光榮。

J︰對你來說「全球化」這個詞 J︰上學期我們有聊到你2007年有甚麼涵意? 在威尼斯雙年展策台灣館的展 H︰這個字真的是很醜陋。我們覽，可以說說這個經驗嗎? 試著要捕捉這世界，我們都知道 H︰那是個很刺激的工作。但那每個個體有差異所以我們才有單也是我所有工作頭銜的其中之一性，但是全球化卻像是要用同一，這個意思就是說不管你愛不一種形容詞來描述這個世界，光愛，工作就是要好好去做。不過想就覺得醜陋。當我們講全球 73

J︰What does it mean globalization in your definition? H︰It is such an ugly term. We try to capture the world. We all know every individual is different thus we can say singularity. Getting globalization is trying to describe the world in one expression, which is kind of ugly. When we talk about globalization, there’s still a straight forward thinking to unify the differences. For me that’s purely political, it’s the competition of power in relationships. J︰You are also one of the members

of the TCAC. What does it mean to you? H︰I don’t know, I am trying to help. Really, I have to say this is the first organization in Taiwan which is trying to survive without any fund from governmental support. In other words, they try to emphasize the economic power of the contemporary art which I think is positive and I have to show my support to them. I am helping them with whatever they need. But it can be easily consumed. Everyone is trying to help. I can also

這其實也是一種消耗，我相信大家都很想幫忙的。其實我也是打開當代的一員，新樂園、乒乓等等，但在台北當代藝術中心我的角色有點不同，比如我覺得乒乓 J︰你也是台北當代藝術中心的很棒而我們之間就像朋友，我是一員對吧，這對你來說意義是什個幫忙的人，當然有時候也有一種像師生關係這樣的角色，有時麼? 他們也叫我宏璋老師，但我們就 H︰我不知道。我當然想盡力幫比較像朋友。忙，我得說我覺得這是台灣第一個想要不靠政府支援的藝術機 J︰那YTA呢? 這對你來說又是什構，也就是說，他們想強調當代麼呢? 藝術的經濟能力，我覺得這個點子還蠻正面的所以我會支持。它 H︰其實想靠這個名稱概括台灣們提出的要求我大都會幫忙，但年輕藝術家有點誇張了，但YTA 化，它還是一個很直接、想要把世界單一化、去除差異的，對我來說這完全就是純政治，這是國際關係間的權力角力。

say I am the member of Open Contemporary, The paradise, Ping Pong … but in TCAC I do different things. To Ping Pong I thought they are wonderful they are pretty much like my friends. I am a helper. With some of them we have some functional connection not just like professor with student…yes sometimes they call me like Hong John the teacher but we are more like friends. J︰and YTA? Can you tell us something about it? H︰That’s kind of bluff trying to

package the whole think. The YTA is interesting. Two years ago Yang Jun brought the proposal for the TCAC in the Taipei Biennial 2008 and in the proposal he gave us the description of how contemporary art center could be. The proposal to me was pretty much as the model. It was an architectural model which will never be actualized in reality. It was something unreal. However, he then started to talk to me a lot and I said if you want to do a good proposal you have to propose something can hap-

還蠻有趣的。兩年前楊俊在2008 台北雙年展的作品是「台北，一個當代藝術中心」的提案，形容了一個當代藝術中心應該做些甚麼，一開始這個提案就像是個建築模型，就是個不會真的實踐的模型，它並不現實。然後他跟我談這件事，我建議他如果想做一個很好的提案就該考慮實踐的可能性，所以我們就覺得，為什麼我們都沒有給年輕人參加的聚會，我們應該設法聚集一些年輕人，創造一個跟雙年展不同的立場，所以我提議來做一個YTA的聚會，讓年輕人有機會認識彼此，我想這會是很好的開始。

Z︰結果雪球有慢慢滾起來嗎? H︰我想至少我們開啟了不同藝術大學的連結，不只是一個聚會，之後也慢慢有其他效應。比如說，打開當代就有受到一些影響而起了些變化，不同學校的學生們開始會想合作一些事。 J︰你對藝術有甚麼願景嗎? H︰有阿，當然。身為一個學校老師或是藝術圈裡的人我總是會去關心學生該怎麼辦，我們把他們招進來那等他們畢業之後要幹嘛? 而且在台灣又這麼競爭，每 75

pen in reality. So we were talking about why in that case we don’t have a party for young guys. We should get some young people together to establish the position which is different from Biennial or anything else. So I said why don’t we do YTA. In the beginning we were just trying to snow-bowling young college students, we tried to get them together and start to knowing each other. I think that was a good start still it is a good kick-off.

Z︰Do you think it did start to snowbowling? H︰I think it at least created a stron-

年有很多畢業生，我記得我好像算過，念藝術相關領域的畢業生每年會超過一千個，但你也知道藝術圈競爭很激烈要變成職業藝術家真的很困難，變成藝術家或策展人的真的很少，頂多一兩個。這很恐怖的，我希望能夠盡量增加變成藝術家或策展人的人數，我真的很想朝這個方向努力，雖然有時還蠻灰心的。

ger connection among this different art schools in Taiwan. Not only because of the YTA party but there is an effect afterwards, for example, I would say Open Contemporary would be in the case which started to become different. Some of the art schools students started to get around and do something. J︰Is there some vision in the art for you? H︰Yes, really. Being a teacher or any important figure in Taiwan I am really concern about my students actually.

是台灣人不是泰國人，而且台灣不是中國的一個省份。」然後別人就會問那我們說甚麼語言，我就會回答說中文，也有台語和其他語言，總之我們不是中國人；總是要解釋很多東西。 J︰你有甚麼信仰嗎? H︰沒有。

J︰你是台灣人嗎? 對你來說這是 J︰你不相信愛嗎? 甚麼意思? H︰不信。拜託，今天上課的時 H︰其實我來自台灣這點沒甚麼候才講的，拉岡不是有提到愛只好懷疑的，只是每次我這樣一講是一種自戀的投射嗎? 接踵而來就會有一串問題，「我 76

We get them into school and what they are going to do when they’re graduates? Especially in Taiwan is very competitive. There are many art students graduating each year. I think I counted it before. Pretty much all art related graduate students will be around 1 thousand. But do you know how competitive it is for young artist to become professional artist each year? It is really rare. Like one or two, three it means one student or one curator. That’s scary. I am thinking instead of one, we should try to send

out a few more. I am trying to make that happen though sometimes it’s pretty frustrating as well. J︰Are you from Taiwan, what does it mean to you? H︰Actually I am from Taiwan and there is no doubt of it. However, when I talk to people that I am from Taiwan, there is always a lot of explanations come following “I am from Taiwan. It is not Thailand and it is not province of China.” and people ask: “What kind of language do you speak?” I answer that: “We Taiwanese we speak Mandarin and Taiwanese and other languages…we are not really Chinese.” So anyway I just need a lot of explanations. J︰Do you believe in something? H︰Nothing J︰Love? H︰Nothing, hey come on we were today talking about this in Lacan Class what does it mean. It is expression of narcissistic being. Lin, Hong John ~ 1964 http://www.itpark.com.tw 77

Wu Chi Tsung 吳季璁

The problem of image is that what we perceived is different from what it real is. This is the theme for the Artist‘s thinking and Wu is taking it in an easy way. But his technical machines and processing, which showed how he is going to search what is behind, what is the other point of view, are quite complicated. He works also with space and light, which is going to be more beyond the boundary of the image. But the most impressive is how he observes and trys to connect traditional and contemporary in a very natural way.

影像與真實的關係是藝術家所思考的主題，並以輕鬆的方式看待。他透過自製的科技機具及程序的裸露展示了藝術家探究其背後邏輯的企圖。他也運用空間和光線來做作品，這更超越了影像的邊界。但最令人印象深刻的是他如何觀察、力圖以個非常自然的方式連接傳統與當代。

W︰I learn to paint since I was a little boy. I took some classes of traditional skill. But the whole education was really bad. It was just training your skill instead of encouraging your creative thinking. When I finally got into college, I had already no feeling to painting, canvas, etc…this kind of stuff. Oil painting smelt really bad to me. I didn’t do much in the campus. I tried to learn some Chinese ink drawing in different ways. Then there were something caught my attentions, I started to use video. And video is an important change for me. I found new media for me with a lot of possibilities so I went very into

that. I felt very free in this. So I started to make some videos. And I tried to work on the theme of what we really see. I realized that we have our own way to see the world. it’s not controlled by any purpose. It was an amazing idea for me to see much more stuff than what I really imagined. So the theme continued and I tried to move it as far as I can. It was in my second or third year in collage in 2002. J︰Have you been learning something about image issue? W︰Mm, no I am just making example of my 3rd series Wire. There is a small object which is really normal,

W：我從很小就開始學畫，上一些傳統技術的課程，但整個受教育的過程其實很糟，就只是不斷的教你技術。而當我到了大學，我幾乎已經沒有畫畫的衝勁了。而油畫的味道很不好，我當時不常使用，因此我嘗試著一些不同於一般的方式畫水墨，而我在這裡面才有了一些感覺，促使我以錄影的方式再試試看，這對我來說影響蠻大的，在這個充滿可能的媒體裡我感到很自在。所以我開始做影像，做我真正看到的東西，我了解到我們可以有自己的方式來看世界，而這不是被任何目的所控制的。這種超

乎我想像的寬廣世界讓我得以一直進行下去，在2002年，我二、三年級的時候。 J：你有學過影像的理論議題嗎？ W：用我的第三個系列作品WIRE 打個比方好了，作品裡，我透過把一個很普通的小東西丟到投影機處，來造成移動的風景。這個動作將原本的世界轉換成不同的世界。或許是因為我學了水墨的關係，我十分喜歡WIRE的氛圍，而我也不喜歡搞神秘，對我來說，誠實的將過程透明化，使

threw to the projector by me. I thus got the moving landscape. This process transformed the original world to another world. In The WIRE I really like the atmosphere inside, maybe because of my background of learning Chinese traditional painting. I don’t want to make something like it is a beautiful magic but I want to show all these honestly. So you can enjoy the image and think about the process as well. I like to connect a lot of things together including traditional things and now with media influenced by western, conceptual art, critical points of view. So I don’t want to cut it, I think that’s our cul-

ture problem that a lot of things are separated. We are not really openminded to connect everything together especially in art I think. To create some new possibility in Taiwan is a little bit different, the environment is against it, some parts are more conservative and some are more trying to follow the western art but I think that there is supposed to be some cooperation, collaboration. J︰What do you mean by connecting to traditions? It doesn’t seem like people are so much interested in traditions, especially young people.

得看著影像的同時也可以思考背後的過程，這兩件事是不能分開的。我習慣將各種新舊事物接在一起，比如說傳統的，也包括一些觀念藝術或者批判性的觀念等等。對我來說，許多事物之所以是分開、斷裂，是臺灣的文化造成的。因此我們必須更開放的去接受、去連結每樣事物。當然，想在台灣做一些不同的東西比較困難，環境並沒有這個條件，這裡面有部分是非常守舊的，有部分是試圖去跟隨西方的藝術，但對我來說，這邊應該要有個能夠採取合作的心態才對。

J：與傳統接軌是什麼意思？因為這邊的年輕人感覺上對傳統沒什麼興趣。 W：我不這樣想，如果將一個我非常喜歡的畫家常玉的作品與一般水墨風景畫做比較，你會發現他的方式更為開放及自由的把很多元素自然的聯接起來，有些主題甚至是從來沒有在水墨中出現過的。而他使用線條的方式則十分近似於書法，卻又很個人。你可以感覺到現在的作品所沒有的自由度。因為我們慣於將什麼事情都分離開來。比如當一個人創作當代藝術時，會傾向於向西方 83

W︰I don’t think so. I like one painter, San-yu, very much. He lives maybe 100 years ago. He studied in France. If you compare his work with Chinese landscape painting you will find that his way is more free and open, he connected many things together very naturally, some topics we never draw, how he uses the line is very alike Chinese calligraphy but in his own style. Some arts are very strong to me. You can feel the freelance inside, that’s the freelance we nowadays don’t have. We tend to separate everything. For example, people will say that I am doing contemporary art so it means

I am going to learn western stuff. It is really ridiculous after 100 years we are still not free. On the other hand, the traditional part, for example, some artists are working with more traditional materials, they have very big, heavy responsibility to take care about this culture to renew it. That’s impossible to get something new, you can’t have free thinking about it if you think too much. J︰Yes, exactly I was confused about it, how somebody is making art with form from western without any content, there is no connection. So you also realized it dur-

學習，在常玉之後的一百年還有人如此的不能自由，這是很荒謬的。另一方面，有些傳統的藝術家常常帶有太重的責任感，要去保衛「自己的文化」，但當一個創作者受限於責任而無法有自由的思考時是不可能拿出新東西的。

常西方的。但是，雖然我們講「西方」，但其實是沒有西方這個東西的。這種從現代藝術而來的前衛精神，讓你試圖挑戰現狀。你必須切斷你的過去而尋找新的東西，這種精神。但實際上中華文化裡面並不沒有這種思維，而是更有一致性的。

J：的確，我之前對此還蠻困惑的。為什麼有人只挪用西方藝術的形式而不管內容，這是斷裂的。所以，你在學習的過程中也意識到這件事吧。

J：我不這樣想，這並不是一個文化的切斷，藝術是一種連續性的累積，是一連串的對當下的反應。

W：是的，但也許這是最好別說 W：當然，思維和很多事物是非是切斷，但從100年前開始，世 86

ing your study. W︰Of course, the thinking and a lot of things are very western. But we call western, actually there is no west. This kind of spirit of Avant garde from modern art, you try to fight and challenge the current situation. You have to cut yourself from your past and have to find new stuff, this spirit. But actually in Chinese culture sometimes it is not like that they are more consistent. J︰I don’t thing so, it is not a cut in culture, the art was developed throw the continued line, it was reaction after reaction.

W︰Yes, but maybe it is not good to say cut, but suddenly since 100 years ago things changed so fast. J︰Yes of course it is. But in same ways it is a continuous line. Maybe you don’t go deeper, don’t have time to stay longer. W︰Maybe it is fashion I think, in every ages a new stuff come and get prosperous. Maybe yes, but I found that in Chinese culture, the development in art history is very slow. They also changes but not in that fast tempo, it can be also creative but of course our living has changed a lot nowadays from political system

界的變動腳步就突然變得飛快。

響。在中華文化中仍然有一些基本的思想從我們的傳統保存至今的。我也很好奇日本。我經常去那，我覺得他們抓到了傳統中的思想或精神，所以我開始思考，為什麼我們不能承認台灣藝術。表面上看起來，它與其他地方非常不同。但是如果你仔細觀察，你會發現我們已經失去了很多基本的東西 ...這就是我說的分裂的環境。

J：是的，當然是。但在某種程度上還是一脈相承的。也許是因為沒有深究下去，沒有多點時間關注這些事。

W：也許這是一種流行，在每個時代總是會找一個新的東西並且會流行起來。也許是的，但我發現，中國藝術史的發展是非常緩慢的。他們也會有改變，但並不是很快，它不是沒有創造性， J：西方的影響是怎麼開始的？但當然，我們的生活有了很大的變化，從今天的政治體制到工業 W：20年代初日治時期，藝術都所有這些事情都受到西方文化影受到印象派、後期印象派影響 87

to our industry all of these things are influenced by the west culture. In Chinese civilization there is still some basic thinking from our traditions. I was also curious about Japan. I am going there quite often and I think that they caught very basic thinking or spirit of their culture. So I started to think about it, why we can’t recognize Taiwanese art. On the surface it might look very different from other places. But if you observe carefully you will find we’ve lost a lot of basic things…This is what I am talking about the environments are separate. J︰How did the influences from

west you said happen? W︰I think in Taiwan begun from Japan, in early 20s the Japanese government was here, their art were influenced by impressionism, postimpressionism at the moment, it was quite a fashion in Japan, so I think it was the most important moment. And now the professors are teaching you by their influences. I think now the problem in Taiwan is that, it’s hard to introduce new dialogs to people, they exist in their own believing. It’s hard to push people to think differently. This could be the issue in art situation. J︰And what about going abroad?

著。它當時在日本相當流行，所以我覺得這是最重要的時刻。現在許多學校的教授與當時的影響密不可分。我認為現在台灣的問題是，很難引進新的對話，他們只相信自己，很難促成人們不同的想法。這可能是當前的問題。

很重要的，但從清朝開始談西方這個問題後，我們開始去尋找某種平衡，到現在仍如此。因此，正如我剛剛所說的，只要以一種自然，平等，自由與開放的心態，可能就有出路。

J：那麼出國呢？ W：我不確定，我可以看到，在台灣是很重要的，也許我認為在中國在亞洲也都是類似的，也許這在日本的起步較晚。我覺得他們失去了當代藝術的一種能量，他們沒那麼活躍。我覺得野心是 88

J：一些藝術家在面對政治、環境和社會問題時是採取積極而反抗的立場。 W：其實我也不那麼在乎關於這個國家的身份認同，因為國籍問題某些人已經決定了他的立場。比起政治，我其實更關心文化的問題，我認為這是更接近生活的

W︰I am not sure, I can see that in Taiwan it is important and maybe in China I think in Asia is similar, in Japan maybe they started later. I think they lost kind of energy in contemporary art, they are not that active. I think ambitious is very important, but the basic part since the Ching dynasty were talking about this issue of western but after this time we are try to go to find some balance, still struggle on that. So as I was talking about. Do it very naturally, equal, free…with open mind, this could be the way out. J︰With some energy, some artists here are active in taking against

position to political, environmental and social issues…especially with government. W︰About this identity state I am ok. Actually I don’t care. With Nationality some people decided that already, I am more into the culture issue I think it is something more actual in our lives. Yes, we are talking about it with friends and I criticize a lot of the government’s policy, but it has nothing to do with my art. I state my points of view as the citizen. But I am not really interested in that. In my art, there is something more personal to me. Of course it is still important to think about it and raise

東西。是的，我在聊天時會批評政府的政策，但它與我的藝術無關。我作為公民，說出我的觀點，但我並不真正感興趣。在我的藝術中還有更多的我個人的事情。當然，它仍然是重要的，必須提出我們的問題或參加討論，有可能發起一些運動，因為我們有很多關於文化事務的問題，我們的政府真的很糟糕。不只是因為他們不發展文化。們甚至是幫倒忙。在政治問題上，我必須說我很悲觀，我幾年前參加了一個台灣當代藝術的研究，但這卻是中國辦的，他們支持我們，請我們展示台灣。我們的政府沒有

採取任何行動的話，無論將來是獨立或統一都不重要了，因為所有台灣藝術的研究工作都給中國包了，這實際上是相同的。如果你真的在意你自己的文化，至少應該做一些基本的東西，這類的研究，美術館應該要做點事，策劃一些展覽來找到自己的藝術觀點，看看會發生什麼事，但現在真正的情況是，我們已經是中國的一部分。我參加很多展覽：我被寫成是中國藝術家，最後一個小字才是台灣。是的，應該要有所動作，但悲哀的是我們的美術館就跟我們的政府一樣糟糕。

our questions or join discussions, there could be some movement because we have a lot of problems in developing culture affairs in Taiwan. Our government sucks it really sucks. Not just they didn’t help to develop the culture. They even damage. In political problem I have to say something very sad, I have been joined a several years ago in show about research of Taiwanese contemporary art. But it all happened in China, they supported us, invited us…to show there. Our government did nothing for it, so you know in the future if you will be independent or part of China doesn’t matter anymore since

all of researches will be conducted by China, which is actually the same in the end. If you really care about your own culture, you should do at least some basic things, these kinds of researches, museum should works, curate the show find our own view point of art and to see what happened, but now the real is we are already part of China. I joined a lot of shows: I am the China artist and with the little word in the end is Taiwan. Yes, that’s to point I think, it should works, but the sad thing is our museum sucks just like our government.

J：你是台灣人嗎？

把我的影像作品放到教堂，所以我很好奇，就去了。我去參加週日上午。教會是典型台灣風格，一個很大的圓形的樣子，也許你在台南會看到，裡面有中式家具，讓我驚訝的是，家具中間有個十字架。這是非常有趣的組合，很自然地將兩種文化混合，我喜歡這個經驗。我跟他們唱哈雷路亞，我從來沒有去過那裡，那是一次新鮮的經驗。我希望我能相信上帝，有人在你的心中照顧你，但我沒有辦法。但實際上這樣很好。就我對宗教的理解而言，這形成一個社群。這很好。此外，我相信禪宗...也許我更愛

W：是，是吧？我不知道，你覺得你是人嗎？ J：是。 W：我想是的，這很難說清楚，但我很臺灣。 J：你相信神嗎？ W：你的意思是一個宗教嗎？我相信上帝，也相信有很多神和鬼。直到這次復活節之前我從未去過教會，有一位收藏家希望 90

J︰Are you a Taiwanese? W︰Yes...yes? I don’t know, do you feel like human? J︰Yes W: I think so, it is hard to say clearly but I think I am very Taiwanese. J︰Do you believe in God? W: You mean a religion? God, Yes I believe in God, there are a lot of Gods and ghosts as well in the world. I have never been in church until this Eastern. One collector wanted put my video into the church so I was curious and I went there. I went to join on Sunday morning. The Church is in typical Taiwanese style in the shape of O but in bigger scale,

maybe you saw in Tainan, and the furniture inside was also in Chinese style an there was the cross in the middle. I was shocked, it was very interesting mix of culture and they mixed very naturally. I enjoyed this experience, I was singing with them Hallelujah, I have never been there o it is very fresh experience to me. I wish I can believe God, someone to take care of you in your mind, but I can’t. But actually that’s nice. My understanding to this religion is they are a community. That’s good. Also I believe in Buddhism maybe Zen… I love Zen more. So maybe I really don’t believe. It is very interesting

禪宗。所以也許我真的不相信。 topic. I am wondering how can I be這是非常有趣的話題，我想知道 lieve so much. I respect it. 我怎麼能相信這麼多，我尊重它。

Wu, Chu Tsung ~ 1981 http://www.itpark.com.tw 91

Muchi Hsieh 謝牧岐

Actually Muchi is a very hyper person. He is good at dancing and he is also interested in making music. But in the interview he was obviously too nervous, maybe that’s because the unfamiliar language spoken between us, maybe also because of being interviewed by strangers. After the interview sometimes we met each other in the city, in the opening of exhibitions, or some gatherings of friends. He looks much more at ease by that time. Muchi Painting is a hilarious work, maybe the laughing Muchi is closer to the real Muchi.

其實謝牧岐在朋友之間是出了名的嗨咖，他很會跳舞也對做音樂有興趣，但在訪談的過程之中卻意外地顯得很拘謹，可能是對語言上的不熟悉感到不安，也可能是對於被陌生人訪問這件事覺得不習慣。在訪談結束之後在城市裡我們偶而還是會遇見，或許是在展覽的開幕或是朋友聚會的場合，那時候他就顯得比較自在，牧歧畫畫是個有趣的作品，或許謝牧岐還是適合開心的樣子。

J︰Do most of the students have their own studios? M: Not really, maybe only half of us have our own studio. J︰So who do you usually sell your art works to, galleries or collectors? M: It depends, every body has different experiences. Q︰Is it going to make your art works sell better if you go to the openings of exhibitions more often and get to know more people? M︰Maybe, more or less it would help, but it still depends on the art

work, I think it would sell better if you receive some art awards. J︰Are there many art awards in Taiwan? M: There are three which I think they’re important, Taipei Art Award, Kao-suing Art Award and Tao-yuan Art award. J︰Does artist care very much about these three art awards? M︰I think so, especially in the academy. Maybe bachelor students won’t be that keen on it, but graduate students are very competitive and serious, also the chance to cooperate with galleries will increase,

J：大部份美創所的同學有自己 J：有很多比賽可以參加嗎？的工作室嗎？ M：台灣的話最主要就是三個 M：一半不到吧！獎：台北藝術獎、高雄藝術獎還有桃源美術獎。 J：通常是賣給畫廊還是直接有收藏家？ J：大家會對這些獎項很在意嗎？ M：每個人狀態不一樣。 M：還是會在意吧！尤其是在學 J：多去展覽開幕，讓大家多認院裡面，大學是還好，研究所可識你，東西就會賣比較好嗎？能會有競爭關係、利害關係，還有和畫廊合作的關係，會比較明 M：多多少少會有一些機會，但顯。其實去參加比賽很難說要用還是要看作品，台灣應該是有得甚麼方式去得獎，參加那種比獎的會賣比較好吧！賽，如果入圍了就好像一個練 94

so students care more about it. In fact, it’s hard to say how to win an award, as long as you can get yourself into the final round, it’s already a very good learning, because you will be given the chance to show your artworks in Museums. J︰Why did you make the Muchi Painting video? M︰I have been painting since I entered the graduate school. I hold one exhibition in 2006, I received some sponsorship that time, so I decided to paint the first one, and then ask somebody else to paint the series paintings for me. Actually I didn’t think too much. Though I did

care about the chance of collaboration with galleries, but I will stick with what I want to do, I won’t worry whether it’s going to make a big sale or not. Before I start to make videos I did only paintings, I’ve always wanted to be a different character, but I can’t find it, so I keep on painting. Of course I like painting, but making painting for exhibitions in galleries is too market-oriented. I’d rather consider the making of painting, the procedure itself, is my art work. J︰Have you ever thought of being a professional artist? M︰I don’t know. When I was in the school I once thought of it. But now I

習，可以想怎麼在美術館呈現自之前，我一直試圖想要扮演一個己的作品。角色，我就還是畫畫，但是我覺得不太開心，其實我很愛畫圖， J：為甚麼要拍牧岐畫畫那個片但是畫圖這件事情，比如說在藝子？廊展出的時候，或是展出中的它，都太結果了，其實我把作品 M：我大學都在畫圖，進了研究完成的時候就是完成了，我覺得所之後，2006年辦了一次展覽，那個溝通管道只是透過視覺的觀那次展覽剛好拿到一些補助，我看，我反而想說，那個過程才是那次作品就是自己先畫一張，然我的作品。後再找別人畫。那時候其實沒想那麼多，雖然我一直對於跟藝廊 J：你曾想過要成為專業的藝術合作這件事情還蠻在意的，但我家嗎？會想做我自己的事情，不會去管說這東西賣或不賣。在拍攝作品 M：不知道耶！在學校裡的時候

am graduated for one year, I’ve been thinking of many things, and I feel it’s still uncertain. I have been learning art creation for 9 years, maybe it’s time for me to do something else? Meanwhile, when you were in the school you’re protected. You can concentrate on what you were doing, but things just changed after graduation. J︰Why did you choose painting to do your artwork? M︰In Taiwan, when talking about art education, it’s always related to skill learning. Of course you need to be interested in painting, but somehow it has become a hurdle. Before

會想，但是畢業之後，我從去年畢業到今年，我還想蠻多事情的，就覺得好像沒有那麼一定，有時候會覺得說我學藝術創作九年了，是不是應該做一些不太一樣的事情。另一方面，覺得在學校裡有一層保護，同學那個環境你可以很專注做你現在的事情，畢業之後，好難喔！

the second year of my bachelor degree, I had been asked to learn how to paint something which looks very close to the real object. In the third year of my study I met Prof. Chu, The-I, and he gave me a lot spaces. He told me that I can do whatever I want to do. I had been painting, painting, painting all the time and I never think of why I paint. By that time I started to think why I use painting as a way to express myself? I started to realize that painting is actually a very strange thing. People see only the finished art works, they never know what happened when I am making the painting.

但是它好像變成一種門檻，有時候我覺得在大二之前，我在做的都是如何把一個東西畫得好像，或是如何作表現。然後到了大三上曲德義的課，他開始給很多空間，你要幹嘛都可以阿！我那時候就是一直畫、一直畫、一直畫、一直畫，也沒有想太多，後來慢慢地想要用繪畫這個語言去講出自己的話。可是後來其實我 J：你當初選擇繪畫的原因是甚感覺那就是繪畫很弔詭的地方，麼？有些時候最後的結果，可能就只有那個，沒有過程。 M：在台灣你只要談到美術教育這件事，就跟技巧脫離不了關 Z ：你認為台灣目前的藝術環係，當然也是要有基本的興趣，境，可以接受代工這樣的做法嗎 98

Z︰Do you think the current art environment in Taiwan can accept the idea of employed working of art? (In Muchi’s artworks some time he invited others to paint for him, he tells them only the idea.) M︰In painting, maybe not. In others maybe it’s possible, for example, in Sculptures or Installations. J︰Some artists have their own idea and find somebody to work for them, some do everything on their own. Which do you prefer? How do you work? M︰Both of them are the good way

to produce art. Why I ask somebody else to paint for me, or where does the idea come from, the reason might be my experience, my growing background. The most important contributor to Taiwan’s economy growing, the text tile factories in the 60s, they are all working for some international brands. This idea of no- brand manufacturing is also part of Taiwan’s history, that’s very meaningful. At least it is historically meaningful. I think everyone, every place, every artist, has its own style. When we see some artworks we can distinguish the artists, because we can recognize different styles. But

（在謝牧岐的作品當中有使用藝式，譬如說找別人來做這件事，術家提出想法然後讓別人來代為可能因為我自己的生長環境，台作畫這樣的操作）？灣早期的經濟奇蹟，很多的紡織廠，他們做的其實都是國外大品 M ：就繪畫類而言，應該沒辦牌的代工，我覺得某一些關於台法，其它應該可以，比如說雕塑灣歷史的部分，那個代工其實是或是裝置之類的。有意義的，是有歷史的象徵意義。我覺得每個人、每個地方、 J：有的藝術家有想法，然後找每個藝術家，有甚麼特色，或者別人一起幫他做；有的藝術家則是說我只要一看到這個作品，就是所有的工作都自己做，你比較知道有甚麼風格，其實台灣在這傾向哪一種？或是你自己是怎麼個方面一直都是很模糊的。重現樣工作的？在地化我可能是我的想法，可是在我的作品裡可能沒辦法一眼就 M：這兩種方法其實都是生產方看到，比如說像陳界仁的作品，式，但我會想說藉由這種生產方一下就可以把台灣議題顯露出 99

this seldom happened to with Taiwan, Taiwan’s style is very vague. To represent the local situation might be my idea, maybe you can’t see that directly in my work, but in some artists’ artworks, like Chen chiehjen, you can see Taiwan’s issue apparently, and that’s also what I want to say. J︰Does it mean that the no-brand manufacturing (a.k.a OEM or ODM) is the inspiration to your art works? M︰Of course there’re some thing else which also inspired me. Prof Chen, Kai-huang also inspired me a lot. His artworks always talk about Taiwan, Taiwan, and Taiwan. My fa-

ther was also like that, they are so responsible for being a citizen of Taiwan. Their attitude influenced me quite a lot. I really want to know what kind of driver makes them act or think like that. J︰Are you happy in the videos? M︰I think everybody has some performance desires! I feel that when I am in front of cameras. Of course I have to plan many things before shooting video, but sometimes I just take it easy and make it in some degree randomly. Basically, I was very happy in university and graduate institute. I did what I want to do and what I like to do. Within that envi-

來，我就是要講這個東西。

吧！看到鏡頭就會自然，在拍片的過程下，蠻多東西是已經事先按排好的，雖然它有部分的隨機性，但是還是在一定範圍。嚴格來講，大學到研究所這段期間我都蠻開心的。因為你做的是你想做、喜歡做的事情，在那個環境裡面你會慢慢地去挖掘，我覺得這件事情是蠻快樂的，就像我剛剛講我一畢業就要面臨當兵，軍隊裡沒有自己，一切只有團隊，那時候的差別最大。

J：所以台灣的代工經濟是你選擇這樣創作的啟發嗎？ M：其實有蠻多不同的啟發，像陳愷璜老師也是一個啟發的對象，他的作品都是台灣、台灣、台灣，我爸在我成長過程中也有一段時間很明顯，那個明顯某一種程度會影響到我，也讓我想要了解為什麼在他們身上會有這樣的使命感或是狀態。

J：你是如何面對繪畫這件事 J：你在影片裡很開心嗎？情？ M：每個人應該都有表演的慾望 M ：我剛剛有說我很矛盾這件 100

ronment people learn how to dig, dig out our possibilities, and that makes me happy. I’ve mentioned that as long as one graduated from the school he has to do the civil service (join the army). There’s no individual in the army, there’s only group! That’s the biggest difference. J︰How do you face painting? M︰I think I am pretty contradict, in my art works I just can’t give up painting. Some times I will try other media and then come back to paintings again. People always ask me, what exactly do you want to do? Why are you some times painting some times making video? I don’t

know as well, maybe I will carry both out. Maybe I am now standing on the turning point. If I feel painting is not enough, I go for videos. Somehow I feel simply one painting is not enough to explain all I want to say. J︰Why do you think that painting is not enough? M︰From the beginning I was painting alone in the video, and then I use painting as a medium, between me and the people who paint for me, and our connection is thus created. Also the no brand manufacturing I mentioned earlier was talking about this idea as well. I want to talk about the connection between me

事，因為在我的創作裡面我無法放棄繪畫這件事，所以常常就是我這件事情做一做，然後我又開始畫圖了，有些人就搞不清，你接下來到底是要拍影片了；不畫畫了，我覺得這個可能一起做吧！其實中間轉折的過程，我為什麼會拍這個影片，因為我單純用一張畫好像無法滿足所有我想要表達的部分。

介，我藉由你幫我畫這件事情來建立一個關係，其實像是我之前講的代工，想要去討論這個關係，這關係對我來說是甚麼？我跟繪畫的關係是甚麼？當我問自己說，我要用繪畫作品去討論繪畫本身，它或許行不通，或是失語的狀態的時候，我反而會想用一些別的事物來進行我的表達，我那時候畫甚麼或做甚麼，內容好像變得不那麼重要，反而是說 J：為什麼你覺得光只有繪畫是我如何把繪畫這件事情變成一個不夠的？媒介去製造一個事件。 M：就好像我為什麼從一個人關 J：你是台灣人嗎？在工作室畫畫，變成畫畫是個媒 M：是。 101

and painting. If I use painting to talk about painting, I become speechless, but if I use something else to talk about painting, like create an event, maybe there will be chance. The content of painting is not so important anymore, it’s more about the event of making painting. J︰Are you Taiwanese? M︰Yes. J︰What does it mean to you? M: I was raised here, I’ve been living here for so long, that makes me a Taiwanese. J︰Do you believe in anything? M︰Last year I broke up with a girl,

and I went to the temple to worship the gods. Because I was really frustrated at that time, also to join the army bothers me, so I go to the temple. J︰Does it work? M︰When you believe it, I think most of the religions are like this, you tell the God who you are, where you are and what happened to you, somehow the conversation helps.

J：對你來說台灣人的意義是甚 M：心誠則靈吧！世界上很多宗麼？教多是這樣吧！你跟她說你是誰、在哪裡、現在遇到甚麼事 M：我在這邊長大，住了這麼多情，這些對話形式或多或少有幫年，我當然就是台灣人。助。 J：你有任何宗教信仰嗎？ M：去年有一段感情上的挫折，所以那時就有時候會去拜拜，因為在感情方面真的遇到無法解決的事情，加上又要去當兵，所以就去拜拜。 J：拜拜有用嗎？ 102

Muchi Hsieh ~ 1981 http://www.ericwork.idv.tw/ 103

Yang Mao Lin 楊茂林

When we met Yang, Mao-lin for the first time, it was really very hard to imagine he is over 50. He looks like a newly-graduate, who is being positive in the career, always looks on the bright side of things. He speaks pretty fast, with a lot of gestures and rich facial expressions. You can feel that he is curious in many things, also can you realize that his thinking is flying all the time. Compare to a successful artist, we’d rather consider him as a free person, who worries about nothing no matter when.

當我們見到楊茂林時，真的很難想像他已經超過五十歲，他就像剛離開學校沒多久，一個在工作上洋洋得意，充滿活力的年輕人。他講話的速度非常快，手勢和表情也非常豐富，你可以感受到他對很多事情都有好奇，也可以感受到他的注意力一下子就轉移到別的地方。比起一個成功的藝術家，他或許更像是一個只跟隨自己的心情走的人，非常無拘無束。

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J：Do you think in Taiwan, contemporary art is distant to people? Y：It has always been like that! In Taiwan, artists are either being sublimed, but that’s a rare case, or either being distant from people. People are also indifferent to the artists. Z︰Did you try to make up the distance in your art works? For example, by using theme which is easier to understand. Y：Yes. Basically, to bring art closer to people has been the issue in my concern ever when I was young. Now my works are focus more on this so I also would like to stress that, I don’t

want the art to be far away from people. Some times I bring religions into my artworks, religions might be serious, but when I bring those factors into my artworks, people would see that actually religion can be friendly as well. Z︰Though religious topics are most of time serious, it’s actually to people’s daily life. Y：Yeah. Generally Taiwan people won’t use religion as their art creation’s theme, because it has always been consider holy, it should always be respected so it’s so far away. I bring the cartoon icons into religions so that it won’t look so serious.

J：你認為在台灣當代藝術與一般大眾有距離嗎？

現在的創作合乎這個課題，所以我就會想強調它。其實我不希望自己的藝術和大眾疏離，甚至我會把宗教偷偷帶進藝術，因為宗教有時候會很嚴肅的，把宗教帶進藝術，藏在藝術裡面，讓大眾能夠看到宗教是可以很親切的。

Y：一向都是這樣，在台灣藝術家基本上不是被崇高化，但是這樣的例子很少，另一種就是被陌生化，跟大眾不會很融合在一起。 Z：你有企圖在作品中打破這樣的距離嗎？譬如說用比較容易理解的題材。 Y：有。基本上，讓大眾能夠進入藝術，其實這是我從年輕的時候一直在關懷的一個課題，剛好 106

Z：但是宗教雖然很嚴肅，卻是離大眾比較接近的。 Y：對。但在台灣一般來講藝術家比較不太敢去觸摸它，因為宗教很有階級。我用很多卡漫讓它的距離不那麼遙遠，我小時候曾經玩過的東西，甚至於說現在

They are just things we played with when we were young, I still have many toys right now. Recently I try to combine art with normal people, so from the art works to the exhibition display, I try to make it looks more friendly. J：Do you have any religion? When did you start to use religion as a theme in your artworks? Y：I like Buddhism, I read some cannons or theories of Buddhism, but I don’t like the ceremonies, it’s too complicated for me, that’s not my type. As a believer in particular religion, people usually don’t say they like that religion, but I’d rather say I

like Buddhism, I like to read, like to research things about Buddhism. I’ve always like to use cartoon and manga icons in my works, in 2002 I started to combine them with Buddhism. I started to read some books about different religions since I was a bachelor student, but in the end I found myself fond of Buddhism. It might be my personality or the living environment. In creating art works, I used a lot of cartoon icons, when I finished the artworks, I felt like I should “send them back”. Like in some religions they “invite/welcome the gods” when they need them, and they “send the gods back”

大人也有大人的玩具。這回到課題來，尤其是最近，我試著讓藝術跟大眾合在一起，從創作到佈展整個呈現，試著呈現一種親切感。

喜歡讀。我一直都是以卡漫為創作要素，到2002年開始我會把佛教跟我要做的作品合在一起。我是從大學開始看宗教的書籍，各種宗教都涉獵，最後還是喜歡佛教，可能是個性問題或是周遭環境，在創作上是因為我創作需要，在以前我畫了很多卡漫，後來想把它結束，結束之後，想說像某些宗教把神佛送回天上一樣，我就用了木刻做了一些作品，這裡面一開始都是我畫過的卡漫人物，就是說我把他們畫完了，我要結束，送他們回家了。在台灣有一種迎神、送神，就是說我已經請他們下來了，我畫完

J：你自己有沒有宗教信仰？什麼時候開始把宗教這個部分放進作品裡的呢？ Y：我喜歡研究佛教，讀一些佛教的理論和書籍，但是我不喜歡宗教儀式，我覺得那個很複雜，不合乎我的個性，但是以一個虔誠的教徒來講，一般不會說自己喜歡佛教，但是我喜歡研究、

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after their wishes are performed. I use cartoon icons in artworks, so when I finish art work making, I have to send them back. That was my first idea of putting cartoon and religion together. Z︰You said you care about people, did you see any changes within these years? Y：It’s a huge, complicated question. I’ll try my best to answer. I do care about people. Especially in Taiwan’s history, let’s take my own growing experience as an example, my grand father was born and educated in Ching dynasty so he hates Japanese when they colonized this

island. My father, on the other hand, born and raised in Japanese Colonialism period, he was taught in the school to be patriotic to Japan. However, I myself was born and raised when KMT government took over this island and I was told a citizen of “Republic of China”. Who knows what the hell that is? You can see that within only couple decades, in 3 generations, our ideologies are totally different. I grew up seeing my grand father and father having arguments all the time when talking about the relationship between Japan and China. We all live at the same place, but the history torn

了請他們回家。

民黨的；到了我的時代，我當然不親日，我在國民黨統治時長大，小時後被教育自己是中國人，慢慢地一直在變化。在短短五六十年的時間裡，有這樣三代的差距，從小就發現，為什麼父親和祖父一談到日本和中國就會起衝突，就會吵架，照理說應該一脈相承，怎麼會這樣。其實台灣的歷史就是這樣，它快速地變化，所以多價值觀都被摧毀。

Z：你說你關注的議題是人，這些年你有感覺到任何社會上的變化嗎？ Y：這個說起來有點龐大、複雜，但是我盡量講，其實我很關心人，尤其是台灣的歷史，在我的生長過程中，它是一個荒謬的過程，譬如說我的祖父、我的父親、還有我，這三代價值觀完全不一樣，我的爺爺在日據時代之前已經受教育，所以他是反日的，喜歡中國的；但是他的兒子是受日本教育，是親日而討厭國 108

Z：歷史背景是沒有辦法選擇的，但是對於這些你個人看法是甚麼呢？

down our connection to each other. That’s Taiwan’s history, fragmented and changes rapidly. Z: You can’t choose the time to born, but what do you think about this personally? Y︰I think I am doing self-healing when creating art. In my generation, the social environment wasn’t so free. The martial law was lifted in 1987 and I was already an artist at the time. I do care about the society, but I was so frustrated being an artists, I felt so small and powerless. The revolution in Taiwan was impossible, you can called yourself a patriotic young man, but actually that

means nothing, we were just waving the flags and yelling, the social atmosphere was totally different. Before 1987, the polices will splash water on you or fight with you before your gathering start to form any power. There was no even a warning sign. So I use art to comfort myself, to convey my discontent and angriness, to express my love to this land. J：Comparatively the current younger generation doesn’t bare that strong social responsibility, and care less about the living environment, what do you think about it?

Y：其實以現在來看以前，我是在療傷，創作是在紓解、療傷，在我的時代裡不像現在是自由的，台灣解嚴是1987年，那時候我已經當藝術家了，就是說我會關心國事，但是藝術家是沒有力量的，那時候覺得自己的力量很渺小，台灣又沒有革命的土壤，那個時候說你是愛國青年，你會發現你甚麼作為都沒有，只是搖旗吶喊而已，那個社會背景跟現在不一樣，1987年之前，你根本還沒出動，警察就打你了，噴水的就來了，一集結就被驅散，也不會有警告標誌。所以我是藉由創作來療傷，來宣洩自己的情

感，對這塊土地的熱愛。 J：相對於現在年輕人的歷史感較薄弱，較少參與國事，有何看法？ Y：我覺得一個進步的社會本來就是要這樣，如果是一個進步的國家，你不需要關心這些事情，人本來就是要玩樂的，人生來就自由，怎麼還需要爭取呢？所以只要你努力應該都是可以的，天天關心這些事情，會老化。問：台灣年輕人似乎對政治冷感，你認為理應如此，令我們感到有些驚訝。 109

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Y：I think a modern/progressive society should be like this. If you’re living in an developed country, you don’t have to care about it. People are born to enjoy their lives, we are born free, what do we have to argue for that? As long as you work hard enough anything is accessible, if you care only about the country the society everyday, you will age really very fast. Z：We always heard a lot of complains about the younger generations are cold to the society, but

you think that’s normal. That’s pretty surprising. Y：I think the social issues are boring, and the social environment has changed, some times you do care about those social issues but you find everything you do is in vain. When I was young I cared about the martial law and the democratic progress of Taiwan. But after the martial was lifted, here comes another question of the relationship with mainland China. I think it’s going to be endless, my life is short,

Y：可能是我們認為這個蠻枯燥的，而且他們的環境可能與我們不一樣，因為你關心這些，有時候可能是無解的。比如說我們早期關心的是戒嚴和民主化問題；民主之後現在就關心要「統」還是「獨」的問題，我覺得人的青春有限，就覺得我的青春，五十歲之前，都在關心這些事情，那關心又怎麼樣？所以我現在主張，其實人不用去管這麼多，如果一個政權它可以管的很好，但是為什麼我們一生出來就要關心這些事情？基本上我是希望不要管這些事情。

Z：在你的作品當中有些圖像是世界共通的語言，像是海綿寶寶、愛麗絲夢遊仙境，這些作品在世界各地展覽時，觀眾們都有些甚麼反應呢？ Y：在我開始把卡漫元素加入創作之前，作品內容談的可能不是世界議題，只是這個地區發生的問題，用很多符號是只有在台灣才看得懂，所以就有人問我說：身為一個藝術家，你的創作走不出台灣，一直在這裡。對我來講，走出去、走不出去，這不是問題，因為我只會想我要創作的

before I reach fifty I spent to much time on it, but nothing has changed, questions come one after one! So, now I would say that young people don’t have to care about any social problems. If we have a good government and politic are functional that’s of course good, but if it’s not, is none of our business. We are not born to deal with that, I just don’t want to care about it anymore. J：There are some icons in your artworks are international language, like Alice the wonderland or some

cartoon stars, when you’re having exhibitions all over the world. How did people react to your work? Y：Before I chose cartoon icons to do my artworks, my artworks were talking about some local issues. So the language spoken by the artwork is rather limited, only people in this area/zone would understand. Some asked me, as an artists, your art should go overseas, not only limited in Taiwan. For me, I don’t care about what go abroad or stay here, that has never bothered me, I do only

作品。後來我已經老了，不想再關心這些問題，想要對自己好一點，就把以前的創作拋掉，其實我一直喜歡卡通漫畫，我到現在還在看漫畫，這種東西才會讓我快樂，我的思想可以無拘無束，可以到處飄，到處遊蕩，我找到我要的，因為很久很久以前，年輕的時候，我就喜歡的東西，只是被國家大事綁住了，一直沒有辦法做我愛做的事，所以我才會主張年輕人不要關心這麼無聊的事情，五十歲後，我不能做那麼枯燥的東西，我喜歡我現在的創作。所以它的國際性就很自然，因為卡漫就是很國際性的東西，

海綿寶寶、愛麗絲都是世界語言，剛好創作變成這樣，所以就這樣了。 J：讀過很多報導，你說自己很喜新厭舊，想法跳得很快，那你如何可以抓住那些瞬間？ Y：我自己都覺得自己有點人格分裂，有一個我、兩個我三個我，年輕的時候都很難控制，控制到底是哪一個我，基本上都是有兩個我，我說自己的想法很多，一個我的時候想法很多，另一個也是，有時候還蠻煩的。因為人的思慮太快，創作太慢，但 111

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what I want to do. When I realize I am aging, I don’t care about those issues anymore. I want to be nicer to myself. So I forget everything I did before. I’ve always like cartoon and comic books, I still like them very much until now. When I was young I put too much social responsibility on my shoulder so I don’t have time to enjoy them, not I want to do what I really love. So I insist that young people shouldn’t care so much about the society, that’s boring. I like what I am doing now, and gradually

it becomes international, it’s spontaneous. Z：We’ve read some articles about you and they said that you always prefer the new things compare to the old ones, which means your ideas change all the time. How do you catch those moments when something new comes into mind? Y：I feel I am a little bit schizophrenia, there’re two of me, three of me. When I was young it was hard to control, I don’t know which I am I being right now. Basically there’s al-

是畫一張圖、作一個雕塑通常都要一兩個月的時間，在這個期間，人的腦袋也是一直在想，只要我稍微把它記下來就做不完了，只是幾年想到很棒的idea都沒有辦法做。我以前會試著記，可是太多了，其實我只要隨便想就可以知道，只要有時間我就會做。

對於台灣這個環境已經沒有時效性，做出來也不會有人有感覺。

Z：如果一直有很多想法出來，要怎麼選擇？ Y：有效性，以前我都會記下來，但是過了一年兩年，可能就不好玩了，我會自己決定，或是 114

J：你是台灣人嗎？台灣人是甚麼？ Y：當然是阿！我認為生活在這個地方的人，如果熱愛這個地方就是台灣人。

ways two of me, I have a lot of ideas, another me also have a lot of ideas, some times it’s really annoying. I think too fast and do too slow. It can take up to one or two month to finish a painting or a sculpture. When I am doing artworks I am still thinking! If I ever write it down it would take my whole life to realize only part of them. It’s just that I don’t have enough time to realize my thoughts. I tried once to write down my thinking, but it’s too much, so I can only think about them and try to realize

them when I have time. Z：How do you choose what to do, what not to do? Y：Validity. I tried to write down my idea, but one or two years past and that idea became boring, then I abandoned it. If it doesn’t valid to Taiwan’s society anymore, nobody will like it anyway. J：Are you Taiwanese? What does it mean to you? Y ：Yes of course I am! I think people who lives here and loves here should be Taiwanese.

Yang, Mao Lin ~ 1953 http://cat.ntmofa.gov.tw 115

Huang Hua Chen 黃華真

Huang, Hua-chen is the youngest artist among all the artists we interviewed in this project. Though we don’t want to emphasize that, somehow we can still sense the potential, instability and a status of becoming in thinking and art-creating. She is always very close to her artworks. In making this project, we also visited her solo show in the city, participated in many events. We often listened to her talking about her artworks. She always stays very intimate with her paintings, as if they are part of her body. Her seriousness always amazed us.

黃華真是這次計劃當中訪問的藝術家裡面最年輕的一個，當然我們並沒有打算強調這件事，但是在訪談當中我們或多或少還是可以感受到這種年輕的潛力、不安定，還有一種於思考或創作都正在轉變的過程。華真總是離她的作品很近，在這個計劃的製作過程中，我們也參加了她的個展開幕，參與一些活動，常常聽她說自己的畫，她總是和畫作保持一種非常親密的關係，彷彿這些作品都像是她自己身體的一部分。

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Z：Can you talk about your paintings? H：I talk about people, and I paint people. I think it’s not anything new that I paint people to discuss people. I don’t want to make it too serious. If you ask me about my attitude of painting, or what do I think of people, portrait, I usually won’t point this out specifically. I think that people, as a theme in painting, is an ancient topic. Painters have been trying to talk about it hundred years ago. I feel standing on the same line with them when I am doing this. We all trying to define what human is, what we are, what generation is us?

I feel I am not the only one who is trying to figure it out. Painters hundred years ago are also looking for it. That’s why I feel oil-painting a very familiar, or friendly thing to me. Z：It seems like you know many friends through oil-paintings. Even though they are from hundred years ago you still feel intimate to them. Do you think you’re trying to talk about the same thing as they did? H：You can say that. To me, the relationship between people is a very actual thing which we can think about. Is just that through oil-paint-

Z：能不能聊聊繪畫對你來說是麼？然後這個時代是甚麼？我覺甚麼呢？得好像不只是我在找這些東西，好像以前的人也在找這些東西， H ：我在討論人，我畫的也是所以我會覺得油畫這個東西，對人，我畫人來討論人這件事已經我來說好像很有親切感… 是不太特別的事，因為我不想把人像講得這麼嚴肅，只是我覺 Z：你透過油畫認識很多朋友，得如果你要問我的話，對於繪就算是很久以前的人也會有一種畫的態度，或是人這個東西、親近感，這些朋友就算是來自幾人像之類的，我通常不會特意點百年前你們討論的東西可能一樣出來談，我會覺得那個東西對我嗎？來說，我可以看到很久以前的人就開始在找，我覺得每一個畫家 H：可以這麼說，我覺得人和人在做這些東西時，我覺得我好像之間的關係好像的確是一個很實跟他們站在同一條線上，我們都在的、可以思考的。只是油畫這在試著表達人是甚麼？我們是甚個東西會讓我覺得做這件事的時 118

ing it becomes richer when I am thinking about it, as if I have some kind of power, which makes me believe that I am not just murmuring to myself. J：Did you try to use other subjects as theme of painting? H：I think, ever since I am aware of what I am paining, I have been chasing the same thing, the actual and the seriousness of relationships. This direction has never changed. However, through the procedure different ways of discussing also come along the way. For example, when I am painting there’s always different lines, different system of themes

that I am dealing with. One might be portrait, there will be a specific subject. Others might not be portrait, then there will be differences when making artworks. The differences might come from the way of painting, or the presentation of the paintings. Sometimes the relationship in the painting is private, sometime it’s public. But I do them in parallel. Recently I focus more on lovers or couples, or the latest is on family. Generally what I have been looking for is the same. J：The people in your painting should have some stories behind, right? Is it from your experiences

候更豐富，好像我有甚麼力量，象，但我現在在做的不只肖像，我會覺得那讓我覺得我不是一個它又會有一些區別，那些區別有人在喃喃自語。可能是在繪畫這件事情上面，有時候是用畫面的某一種方式來區 J：是否有嘗試過其他繪畫主題別，或者是，有一陣子的關係是呢？對外的；有陣子的關係是對內的，但是我一直都是並行。我最 H：我覺得我從開始有認知在做近使用的方式是比較聚焦的，比作品這件事的時候到現在，追求如說在男女朋友或戀人上面，一的東西都一樣，就是一種真實直到最新的是做家庭，但是我一與深刻，這個方向當然都是一樣直以來追求的東西都是一樣的。的，只是中間會有很多不同的過程，比如說，我在做的時候我會 J：這些人物畫背後應該有故事有好幾條線，好幾個系統，我會吧？是來自你自己或是他人？區分它們，比如說，如果是肖像是其中一條，它有一個明確的對 H：有自己也有他人，但是有一 119

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or from others? H：Both. What’s important is that, I tried not to paint special relationship or event. Z：What doe it mean by special relationship? You mean an affair or rarely seen relationship? H：Yes, I avoid them if possible. Maybe sometimes it’s hidden in the paintings but people won’t know that. I chose only some moments in a relationship, I want those moments to be normal, even slightly boring. So far I tried not to paint those special or strange relationships. I’ve done that before, but it didn’t raise much feeling of common

experience. Sometimes I do that as well, but it’s more like a diary. Z：Does it mean that you tried to keep a common sense in the images? H：I tried to present a general, common feeling. Of course each story have something abnormal behind, I think they are great stories. It might be a hard love story, or a difficult relationship of friends. But I picked up the moments in a status of daily-life. There’s always a reason why I paint it, but that’s not the answer to the paintings. If somebody misunderstands the stories in my paintings, or people think my paintings are am-

個重要的事情，就是我盡量不做 Z：所以你會維持畫面的想像呈很特別的關係或事件。現出一種普遍性？ Z：特別的關係是指甚麼呢？像 H：盡量呈現一種普遍性，當然是不倫或是比較少見的關係嗎？也許他們後面有很不凡的原因，可能是自己覺得很偉大的故事； H：對，盡量不做，但是其實有或許是自己覺得很痛苦的悲戀、隱藏在裡面，只是大家看不到，或是朋友的悲戀，只是我讓它盡就是說我擷取那個關係的切面，量呈現出來是日常生活的狀態。但是我希望那個關係的切面是很雖然我一定會有個某種原因去平凡的，甚至可能有點無聊的關做，但是對我來說那不是一個答係，到目前為止我盡量不做很特案，因為就算是別人產生了甚麼別的關係，因為我自己有那樣的誤讀、或是我的畫看起來很曖經驗，我會覺得它的共通性很昧，我覺得那是好的，這樣它會低，我可能也會做，可是那會比有更多可能，只是我可能有某個較像日記。原因的出發。 122

biguous, I think that would be great. More possibilities in painting might thus pop out! No matter what is the original reason that makes me paint. Z：Are you trying to create an imagination for people who look at your paintings? H：I think my previous paintings might be easier to understand. They are just like an illustration. My recent paintings are not that narrative. There’s one point when I am painting. I will avoid the visual stimulations. I don’t want the aesthetic sense become too strong. J：Though it looks like an easy im-

age, but people still want to find out the story behind. Sometimes people just don’t want to believe in the beautiful thing they see so easily. H：But I think that’s good. You can see human-beings are complicated. Just like we can say that we are all friends, but it’s still different. I am different from Juliana, and that makes your interactions with us different. This is not about good or bad, it’s full of possibilities we can never know. And I like that very much. If my paintings can make people think, that would also be a great thing. For

Z：所以你在營造觀眾看畫時的就是這麼複雜，就算我跟你的關想像嗎？係，跟你跟她的關係講起來是一樣的，可是還是不可能一樣，因 H：我覺得我以前做得比較好理為我跟她不一樣，你對我們的時解，它就像個圖示、圖說，現在候也不一樣，這不是好壞的問的畫比較沒有像那樣子，只是有題，就是有很多很多想不到的可一個重點，我會避免那個視覺刺能，然後我覺得這就是我喜歡的激，或是經營太強烈的美感。方向，因為如果可以讓他們揣測到底為什麼，我覺得也很好，對 J：雖然是很簡單普通的畫面，我來說，那個作品不是單向的卻還是想找到後面所隱藏的深說：讓我告訴你這件事。雖然說意。大家有時候看到畫面無法一它不是直接回答我，但是感覺有下子就相信那是一個單純的美一個反射，想說到底為什麼讓他好。們現在看起來這麼簡單？之前發生了甚麼事？但我覺得這件事跟 H：但我覺得那是好的，因為人故事性不一樣，我不是在說故 123

me, the painting is not only telling a story. It is not a record of some thing happened, but a reflection of some feelings. We can help but think, what happened to the people in the painting? Why do they look so simple at the moment? I think this is different from story telling. This is not a narrative but the ability to trigger people to make a story. J：It seems like your painting is an entrance, through that people gain something, but it depends on themselves. H：Thanks, I like this kind of expression. I think everybody is different, but we might have same relation-

ships, and I try to find those details. For me, those details are the proofs of the connections between people. Z：Do you think people are constantly changing? H：I believe that people changes, but there are different kinds of changes as well. People are just that complicated. I am pretty positive in facing changes. For example, I paint my family, there’re just a couple of them, I paint them for so many times, they look the same, sometime I don’t even have to think about them that I can paint them. What I am trying to say here is that, though they look all the same, actually every time I paint

事，而是製造別人去說故事的能 H：我相信人會改變，但是改變力。也有很多種，因為人就是這麼複雜，我覺得有些改變是好的。 J：感覺你的畫是一個入口，透比如說，我畫作中其中的一個系過你可以獲得甚麼，但是取決於統：畫我自己的家人，就那幾個個人… 人，我重複的畫他們，可是他們的樣貌都是一樣的，我甚至不用 H：謝謝，我喜歡這個說法！我看都可以畫得出來，我的意思是覺得每個人都是絕對不一樣的，說，我每次畫他們的時候可能都但是有可能有一樣的關係，然後有一些新的事件發生，對我來說我試著找那些細節，我覺得這些有細節的肖像就是那樣，對我來細節可以做為人跟人之接連結的說，我畫這些的時候，這些一點證明。點的事件就像日記一樣，因為我是不寫日記的，這些東西不管是 Z：你認為人一直在變嗎？好的還是壞的，它一定改變了甚麼，可是這些改變我都會留住它 124

them, something new might have happened. We can tell them in the details of portraits. When I am making this kind of paintings, the slight and subtle changes become my diary. I don’t write diary, but through paintings I can see the changes no matter they are good or bad. I keep those changes. They richen my connections with people I paint. We are one on our own way of life, but our relationships to others are always changing, no matter that’s because of one conversation or one thing we see, even the weather can change our way of thinking. And I just believe in that. However, so far I still

tried to paint positive things, I think that’s the part I want to keep more. J：Most of your works are pretty popular, do you want to talk about your experience with the galleries or market? H：Compare to my classmates, I did receive more favor form the galleries or collectors, and it’s certainly an approval to my efforts. I appreciate it. Meanwhile, deep in myself it’s still very confusing and hesitating to see my works become something like a merchandise and it’s really struggling for me to imagine where my works are going and I might

們，因為會使我跟它們之間變的更豐富，就像我們每一個人自己走在人生的道路上，你跟每個人的關係，都有可能因為一句話；或是聽到甚麼；或是今天天氣改了，它就會成為你們改變的理由。沒錯，我就是相信這些，但是我做作品的時候，到目前為止我還是盡量做很正面的東西，我覺得那些是會比較想要留住的部分。

H：當然和同學們相比，能夠受到畫廊青睞或是有人喜歡我的作品，都是很大的肯定，但我覺得我在面對自己的作品就要變成商品的過程，內心還是有很大的疑惑和猶豫，這對我自己來說也是很掙扎的經驗，而且有時候相當困難。在這方面我想還有很多細微的感受可以討論，但目前我還在整理自己的情緒，或許這個部份我們之後再聊吧。

J：你做很多作品都還蠻受歡迎 J：你是台灣人嗎？的，要不要談談與畫廊或這個圈 H：是阿。雖然這樣回答，但這子的關係？個問題讓我想到很多事。我媽

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have no more chance to see them anymore. I do have many feelings standing in this point and there are many to tell, but so far I am still trying to understand my own reaction to these things, maybe we talk about it next time. J：Are you Taiwanese? H：Yes. Though my answer is affirmative but the question reminds me many things. My mom’s parents moved to Taiwan with the KMT government (a.k.a Chiang kai-shek government) in 1949. Though she was born and raised in Taiwan, I still remember that there were so many unhappy things happened to her

simply because she was marked the “outsiders”. I often think about it, why Taiwanese people treated people living and growing at the same place so badly? I still get angry and feel so unfair when I think about it. I hope that people who live on this island can recognize each other and live a peaceful life. J：Do you believe in anything? H：Yes, I often say that though I don’t have a father at this ground but I can feel the father from above is always by my side. Maybe because of the family background, it seems like I have more reasons to disobey this society than others. But

媽的父母親是隨著蔣介石政府一起遷來台灣的，雖然她在台灣出生長大，但我記得不知道有多少次，因為她被貼上「外省人」的標籤而受到很多不公平的待遇。常常我會想，為什麼這些人無法認同在同一塊土地上成長生活的人，因此到現在我還是常常會覺得這很不公平而感到很生氣，我希望在這島嶼上的人，可以互相認同並且和平的相處。

從來沒有離開過我。或許因為成長背景的關係，我似乎比其他小孩有更多理由變壞，但是因為天上的父一直給我力量，陪我面對很多的選擇，讓我覺得我可以繼續往前走下去，我很感謝祂。

J：你有任何的信仰嗎？ H：有。我常常說，雖然地上的父我沒有，但天上的父我感覺的 126

the father from above always gave me power, he was always with me when facing many difficult choices, made me believes that I can move on. I am grateful to it.

Huang, Hua Chen ~ 1986 http://www.flickr.com/photos/calacalacala 127

Wu Darkuen 吳達坤

It is very unique to find and know somebody who has so much faith in art. Somebody who could speak about difficult life issues with surprisingly very sober mind, about his own dreams in art and life. Darkuen was talking about VT art salon how it was founded and he described in detail this situation in Taipei. His residency experiences create also good story but he has still some specific kind of responsibility to be an artist, to be a Taiwanese artist in his quiet and stylish way.

吳達坤是目前VT Art Salon的負責人，也是世界各地駐村經驗相當豐富，海內外知名度很高的藝術家。從作品當中常可以感覺到他對城市，這樣的空間、聚落、居民、活力的關切和討論。在這次的訪談主要分成兩個部分，前半討論了VT Art Salon的轉變以及它這些年來對台灣當代藝術界所產生的影響，做為一個替代空間，期待VT的邊緣性(畫廊/非畫廊、酒吧/非酒吧)能夠在持續進化的過程中能夠越來越活躍。另一方面關於台灣當代藝術的發展，年輕藝術家的崛起與困難，身為過來人的角色，受訪者也分享了個人的看法。整體來說這次訪談讓我們感受到藝術家身上強烈的能量，不斷想要以各種型態持續工作，似乎他身上源源不絕的動力也感染給了我們!

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J：How long have you been the director of VT Art salon? Could you tell us the difference between here and other galleries? D：Ok, Let put it out this way. Yes of course I am the director but also on the other hand I am an artist as well and work on my own artworks. I have sort of experiences with the residencies in different country. I think I can talk about VT Art salon, what it is and why we have it here… and why it is different between the other places. D: In the beginning actually the VT was an artist group since 1996. It

was started by Yao Jui Chung and also artists who are mostly from TNUA. They organized an art group and by that time we didn’t have any curatorial studies and nobody had any idea about what contemporary art is. Only a few very avant garde spaces for example like IT Park or Sly Art. Yao was at his early twenty and they wanted to have some curators to present these young artists. They started to look for some empty house or vender factory where they can do works, exhibitions and invite people from Taipei city. In the beginning actually no one knows what the contemporary art is, nor

J：你擔任非常廟藝文空間的總監有多久了？你能告訴我們，這裡和其他畫廊的差異嗎? D：好，這樣講吧。當然我是VT 藝術沙龍的總監，但另一方面我也是一位藝術家，並且創作我個人的作品。我也有些在不同的國家駐村的經驗。我想我可以談談關於非常廟藝文空間是什麼，為什麼我們把它設在這裡，以及它與其他地方的差異。

個組織。他們成立了一個藝術團體，當時並沒有任何策展研究，也沒有人知道是什麼當代藝術。只有少數非常前衛的空間，例如像伊通公園或新樂園藝術空間。姚瑞中在他二十初時他希望能有些策展人能帶領這些年輕的藝術家。他們開始尋找一些空房子和支持者能讓他們創作、展示和邀請一般市民參觀他們的展覽。在初期其實沒有人知道當代藝術也不認識那些年輕的藝術家，但人們都在討論著這項藝術是多麼的有趣，並且他們開始做一些研究，這現象就像雙向的溝通。之後我和次世代的藝術家加入了VT

J：實際上在1996年，非常廟藝文空間剛起步時曾是個藝術家組織。姚瑞中和其他來自國立台北藝術大學的一些畫家一起創立這 130

young artists. But people were saying how interesting it is. And they started to make some researches. It was like a two way communication. Later me and the second generation we joint the VT group. We’ve known each other for a long time at least 10 years. In 2005 one day it was during the Chinese New Year we went to Yao’s place and had a discussion about why is Taipei so boring and not interesting at all? Maybe eight or ten years ago it was a really interesting place. But nowadays, since 2000, we have the curating system and a lot of Biennales or international exhibitions. It is kind of globalization, but

somehow we felt that we lost some energy. Those energies are: we go to other cities or countries and they look all the same. Every Biennial, Triennial provides almost the same names. We started to think that we need something new in Taipei. We decided to have our own space: VT Art salon. But it didn’t look like these days. We tried different directions: we had a lounge bar, exhibitions, party every weekend. Also we organize different events. In the beginning it was fun. Actually a lot of people came. But around 2007 we realized that as an artist you must have your faith but the reality is the

集團，我們已經互相認識至少十年了。在2005年農曆新年的某一天我們去姚瑞中的家且我們討論著為什麼台北這麼得無聊且沒有任何的樂趣？大概在八或十年前台北曾是個充滿樂趣的地方。但現今，從2000年開始，我們有了策展機制和大量的雙年展和國際展覽。這些都是全球化的展覽，但不知道為什麼我們都感到我們失去了一些動力；那些失去的動力是：我們不管是去哪個城市或是國家他們看起來都一樣，每個雙年展和三年展幾乎都是一樣的名稱。我們開始思考我們需要在台北創造一些新的東西，所以我

們決定創立我們自己的空間：非常廟藝文空間。這藝術沙龍在剛起步時看起來和現在不一樣，我們嘗試了不同的方向：我們每個周末都有lounge bar、展覽和派對，我們也規劃不一樣的活動。一開始的時候很好玩，實際上也有很多人來。但在2007年左右我們了解身為一個藝術家你必須秉持著自己的信念，但現實就是現實…我們那時花了大部份的錢而且我們幾乎要收了非常廟藝文空間。所以那是另一個重要的問題需要去思考：我們要如何生存？因為藝術家有很多夢想且他們也為那些夢想發狂。我們那時並沒 131

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reality…we spent a lot of money at that time and we almost closed VT. So there was other question important to think about: how can we survive? Because artists have a lot of dreams and they go crazy to it. We didn’t care about some financial things or management. We felt just do it but one year later everything became to be exhausted and you are getting tired because you have to go home very late. We were confused, as artists if this is what we want. We decided to change a little bit and make VT more focus on the video art and young artists. Yao had the solo exhibition here and other

few artists also. The first three exhibitions were quite successful before economic crises in 2008 and other artists they got attention by collectors and they decided to sell their works and the record was good. The other good thing was this change helped VT to survive and those artists get to the art market. But there were still wondering if we want this direction or make VT more as a non profit institution. Yao was formal director of VT and three years later he was really tired. So he passed it to me. That is why I am now taking charge of this place. J：Who is buying art here?

有考慮到經濟層面和管理層面，覺得先做了再說，當時我們每天都很晚回家，一年後所有的事物都被耗盡了，而且漸漸的我們感到厭倦。我們那時非常的困惑，想著當一位藝術家是否是我們真的想要的。我們開始改變一些方向讓非常廟文藝空間多重視在錄影藝術和年輕的藝術家上。姚瑞中和其他幾位藝術家也曾在非常廟文藝空間有自己的展覽，在 2008年金融危機前我們辦了頭三個非常成功的展覽，而且其他的藝術家也受到收藏家的青睞，他們決定賣出自己的作品並且成績都非常好。另一益處是這個改變

幫助了非常廟藝文空間繼續生存和其他藝術家進入到藝術市場。但我們對是否想要走這個方向或是把非常廟文藝空間轉型成非營利機構還有些顧慮。姚瑞中曾是非常廟藝文空間的董事但三年後他真的累了。所以他將這個位子傳承給我，這就是為什麼我現在在管理這個地方的原因。 J：誰會買這裡的作品呢？ D：我們還是有一些固定的藏家。 J：台灣人嗎？

D：We still have some collectors here. J：From Taiwan? D： Yes also from Asian country and few from Europe. J：That is quite interesting how a group of people, around 8 members had this kind of strong feeling to do something, prepare a new place and how you said in the beginning for fun. Have something really changed since this moment? D：For the contemporary art scene here in Taiwan. 20 or 25 years ago some political issues influenced by

society has brought contemporary art a big change. By that time the KMT party finally cancelled the regulation of organizing political party, which means we can finally have different parties in the parliament. Also it was in the late 80s when Taiwanese were given the freedom to speech and the newspaper publishers are allowed to post critiques about the government. The new, relatively free atmosphere in the society has brought a big change to people. Artists and poetry writers started to write or create their own new look of works. Of course some people studied abroad then came

D：有台灣人也有一些歐洲藏報禁解除台灣人開始有了言論家。權，並且開始出現批評政府的社論。這種相對自由的新社會氣象 J：想想這實在是很有趣，八個也給人們帶來改變，藝術家和詩人對一件事情有這麼強的信念，人開始了不同的創作，從海外回讓你們能夠共同來經營這個空間來的學者們也帶來一些新的想法一開始的動力，如你所說，竟然並且開始在學校內任教。我想那只是因為好玩，在這些年裡有沒正是台灣的當代藝術真正開始萌芽茁壯的時候，而當時還小的我有甚麼改變呢？們也受到這種氣氛影響。 D：以台灣的藝術境況來說，大在九零年代因為泡沫經濟的發展約二十到二十五年前因為解嚴的台灣的經濟非常活躍，有許多的關係給了台灣的當代藝術一個很商業畫廊在這個時期賺了很多大個改變，禁止結社的法令也取錢，當時有些畫廊老闆還會直接消了，新政黨也終於有機會成跑來藝術家的工作室然後也不管立。同時也在八零年代末期隨著作品還沒完成就帶走了，真的很 133

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back to Taiwan have started to teach in local schools. I think they are the first generation of artists who are really making contemporary art. They were also influenced by the change of society just like we young generation. In 1990 the Taiwanese economy got much more prosperous due to the growing of economic bubble so the commercial galleries earned a lot of money. Some gallery owners even came to the artist’s studio and took the work which are not finished yet and sold it. It was ridiculous. But I think it is similar in recent China. We had this kind of experience so

when the economy bubble crashes we suddenly understood what we should do or what as an artist you should focus on. Of course to earn a living is important but on the other hand you have to have a strong feeling or strong faith of being an artist. You have to be responsible to show people the new direction in the rapid changing trend of society and provide people different points of view. But when we grown up and we started to feel it in 2005, 2006 in Taipei we realized that something is still missing. We started to have our own experiences to go abroad or participate in international exhibi-

荒謬。但我想這就和最近的大陸很像，所以當後來經濟開始泡沫化之後我們才突然驚覺藝術家真正該做的是甚麼；當然對每個人來說賺錢餬口是一件重要的事，但同時我們也應該要感到身為藝術家的有的責任，在社會變化如此劇烈的年代我們應該要有能力提供人們不同的觀點和看法。當我離開學校展開藝術生涯一直到 2005-2006年，我發現台灣的當代藝術依然缺少了甚麼。當我們開始慢慢有機會到海外去參加各式各樣的雙年展或是博覽會，開始發現當外國人對我們說：喔！你是藝術家！並且對我們多所

禮遇，而當我們回國之後受到台灣社會冷漠的對待，感覺是完全不同的。一般台灣民眾並不在乎藝術，也不知道當代藝術在做甚麼。所以我們開始覺得擁有自己的空間並且能夠藉由空間讓大眾更加了解我們的想法與概念是很重要的。現在我開始寫一些對台灣社會的觀察，也希望能發展論述，但我是藝術家我並不是政客，我想在很多方面來說我還是不夠的。但我覺得，我想創造一面給這個島嶼的鏡子，我想做一個虛擬的國家叫做”沒人共和國”，然後這個國家就像是台灣目前狀況的鏡像，我想邀請大概

tions. But every time when we went to other country everyone said: oh you are artists! And they treated you quite well and after we came back to Taiwan and here the situation is totally different. People won’t care about the art, or what are you doing? Generally people say that they don’t know what Contemporary art is. So we were thinking that we should have our own space and keep telling or showing our ideas to the general public. Now I am still writing an essay, I wrote down my own observation of Taiwanese contemporary art and I have always been thinking what this

country can be. I am an artist I am not politician so I have to say in an artist’s way it night not be enough. I am trying to create a mirror for this island and in this mirror I will make a fake country and it is called republic without people. This title is a kind of specular reflection of Taiwan’s situation. I also invited around 20 artists. This exhibition will be in Taipei MOCA in our National Taiwanese museum and I am talking with them and maybe it will have a tour to New York. I have already been preparing this exhibition for one and half year. J：How do other countries perceive Taiwan?

二十個藝術家，然後在台北當代藝術館或是國立台灣美術館辦一個展覽，甚至我們可能會巡迴展覽到紐約，我已經在準備這個計劃大概有一年多了。 J：別的國家如何認知台灣呢？

有策展人會來台灣參考我們的作品，當然在這十五年內有很多藝術家參加了世界各地的駐村，他們經驗豐富而且視野寬廣，然後他們成為教授並開始在學校裡教書，我相信台灣慢慢會越來越全球化的。

D：我想這幾年台灣的能見度應該有慢慢在提升，當然是不能跟中國相比。在九零年代末期有一些台灣藝術家搬到北京去並且希望能和當地的藝術社群有一些交流，不過沒幾年後他們就回來了，因為他們就是沒辦法在那裡生存。我想大概五年內就會開始

J：你從國外學到些甚麼呢？不管是駐村或是參加展覽。答：每個地方對我來說都不同，參加展覽也會有這種感覺。比如說去年我第一次去北京參展我覺得超詭異的，雖然我能聽懂他們講的話而且我也看過一些藝術家的作品了，所以那並不是太陌 137

D：I think nowadays Taiwan is getting more attention abroad. Of course it won’t be comparable to China. At late 90s some Taiwanese artists moved to Peking and tried to get into local art community but a few years later some of them came back. Because they couldn’t somehow live there. But I think during last 5 years some curators arrived in Taiwan to see our art. And of course we go from here to some Residency programs about 15 years and pretty much of them have experiences and influences. Also some artists become professors and teach in local universities. It is kind of globalization state.

生，不過他們生活的方式、說話的方式、還有他們思考的方式都這麼的不同。我和一些香港藝術家一起去的，我們都覺得好奇怪，沒辦法融入那個地方，我們沒辦法在北京找到歸屬感。

J：What did you learn from other places? No matter residencies or exhibitions. D：Every place is very different to me. Also the exhibitions which I made gave me this kind of feeling. For example I traveled but last year I went for first time to Peking and my feelings were so weird. I can understand the language and I already saw some artworks of local artists in art magazines so it was familiar to me. But the way they live and the way they talk, their mind and thinking is so different. We were there with other artists from Hong Kong etc…but we felt so strange, just gave

人來這裡時帶來了很多改變，比如說我們把原住民的姓氏改成漢姓，原住民被迫被同化或是移住到山區。接著這裡又被日本統治，當國民政府來台時其實一開始台灣人是很歡迎的，但為了穩固統治力量蔣介石政府殺了很多 J：你是台灣人嗎？台灣人對你人，很多台灣人都還記憶深刻，來說是甚麼呢？所以我想認同在這個島嶼上是非常複雜的問題。 D：我當然是台灣人，當然我知道華人也是一個相當普遍的認 J：但對你自己來說台灣人是甚同。我們的祖先確實來自中國大麼？陸，台灣的原住民在血緣上其實是比較接近菲律賓人的，甚至在 D：台灣人應該要可以生存、工語言上也比叫雷同。三百年前漢作並抱著誠實而且感恩的心情在 138

up and said go to other places. We didn’t feel that we belong to the place like Peking. J：Are you Taiwanese? What does it mean to you? D：Sure I am Taiwanese but I think maybe Chinese is a very common identity. Our ancestors came from China. We also have aboriginals whose kinships are actually closer to Phillipines. Their language is similar I mean aboriginal language. When Chinese came here 300 years ago they brought something. For example they changed the aboriginal’s family names to Chinese names. Many people were changed. Ab-

original were chased to mountains to hide themselves like Indians. Some of them still keep the original culture but some were assimilated into Chinese. After Japanese Colonialism, when Chiang kai shek and KMT party first came here Taiwanese actually welcome their arrival but he wanted to stable his power and he killed a lot of people. Many Taiwanese people can’t forget it. So I think the identity on this island is very complicated. J：But what does it mean to you to be Taiwanese? D：Taiwanese should be able to live, work honestly and grateful for

這個國家、這個島嶼。在這裡我們應該要可以自由地做我們想做的事，這看來似乎非常簡單但到現在我們都還無法達成（缺乏國際認同），或許其實我們很想回聯合國但沒辦法。

事情或是在海邊游泳，哈。 J：你有沒有甚麼信仰呢？宗教…

D：沒有，我有朋有信教但我認為，身為一個藝術家，不管是信仰、哲學、科學，這些通通都是 J：你對未來的展望呢？文化的一部分，而我尊重這些文 D：我想去一個小島然後躺在那化。裡整天無所事事，那是我的夢想。不過這跟現實生活差很遠，或許在我接下來的駐村計劃裡有機會實現吧？去一個離都市很遠而且有私人海灘的地方那我就可以實現夢想了，就在那裡整天想 139

this country and island. We should be able to do whatever we want. It is very basic but until now we are still lack of something (international recognition). Maybe we want to go back to UN but until now we could not. J：what’s your vision? D：I wanted to go to a small island and lie down there all day and do nothing. It is another dream. It’s pretty far from my daily life. Actually it looks like that I will have this opportunity for my next residency. The place is pretty far away from city and there is some private beach or something so I can realize it. Go there for thinking, swimming in the

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ocean everyday. Ha… J：Do you believe in God, religion… D：No…I have some friend they have some religions but I think as an artist you have to respect everything including religions, philosophy… science…I mean also those religions are part of your culture. I respect every culture.

Wu, Dar Kuen ~ 1974 http://cat.ntmofa.gov.tw 141

Amy Cheng

鄭慧華

As a cultural-worker who conducted many interviews with artists all over the world, she was also interested in our project of having interviews with local artists. For her, the interview might be a possible method to map out the contemporary art scene, it’s also a way to recollect the pieces of history. In the interview we also talked about the role of curator in different points of view. Being in the curatorial career is actually not so easy for anyone. However, it’s still a fascinating job that Amy cannot give up so easily. With the space newly started to run, she also shared the information about up-coming exhibitions. For first part of the project, we think it’s a very good temporal ending and are really very to have this interview at this time.

身為一個在訪談上身經百戰的藝術工作者，她對我們的計劃相當感興趣，這對我們來說也是很大的鼓勵。對她來說身為策展人的可能性有許多面向，其中當然也包含對當代藝術樣貌的建構、以及對歷史的斷裂進行點點滴滴的重新繪製。我們也談到了策展工作的大不易，但這並沒有讓她輕易放棄策展人的身分，在她新開始營運的空間中，接下來也會陸續迎接更多的展覽。對我們的計劃來說，第一階段的訪談將進行到這裡，我們將會把這半年的成果集結成書面資料，將書籍散播到更多地方，在這個階段能夠和Amy進行訪談，對我們來說也是相當重要的事。希望能夠在大家的支持下，將這個計劃越推越遠。

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Z：What is the beginning of your curator career? A： I received my master degree in 1996 and started to work for the art magazine. That was the time I started to get engaged in contemporary art. As a student of art history, I had no connection to the contemporary art society, nor did I have any connection to the environment here in Taiwan. So the first job gave me a big influence, it broadened my eyes and mind. In 2000 I moved to Vancouver, I was still a freelance journalist and I also volunteered in an art center

called center A. They deal mainly with Asian contemporary art. Once they held an exhibition conference and I wrote an essay for them about Chen Cheih-jen. Then they asked me if I can curate a show of him Taiwan, and I thus started my curator career. J：You are also having interviews with artists all over the world. Can you tell us, what is the possibility of interview? What do you think about it? A：I personally like to do the interviews because I can have direct contact with the artists. When I started to work as an art journalist,

Z ：開始做策展的契機是甚麼壇，我寫了一篇關於陳界仁的文呢？章，之後他們問我願不願意幫台灣策一個展，那就是我開始做策 A ：我碩士念的是西洋美術展的第一份工作。史，1996年畢業之後我開始在藝術雜誌當記者，那是我從事當代 J：你自己也訪談很多世界各地藝術相關工作的起頭，基本上念的藝術家，對你來說訪談的可能藝術史出來的學生對當代藝術是性是甚麼呢？你怎麼看待呢？沒甚麼概念的，和自己所處的社會環境也沒甚麼連結，那份工作 A：我個人很喜歡做訪談是因為給了我很大的影響也開啟了我的可以和藝術家有直接的接觸。當視野。2000年的時候我搬到溫哥我開始做記者時我覺得當代藝術華去，當時也一直還是特約記者真的非常吸引人，當代藝術的世而且我在一個藝術中心(Center A) 界充滿了驚奇。有些人可能會覺當志工，它們基本上做的都是當得作品比較重要，但對我來說重代藝術，有一年辦了一個聯展論要的是創造作品的藝術家，直接 144

the differences really fascinated me. The contemporary art world really is really amazing. Some people might say the art works are the priority, but for me the people doing art are the priority. I like to know how they think and what makes them create wonderful artworks. Having conversation with them helps me to know them and the interviews show me their personality. So I really enjoy having interviews with artists, I would say if I can I think I will continue doing this forever. Z：When doing interviews, we always tried to do some research of the artists in advance, have you

ever read some articles from the critiques/news which gave totally different impression from your interview experience with the artists? For, example, your thinking of that particular artist totally changed after you conducted the interview. A：Yes, sometimes. I think the articles written by other people could be a reference to know the artists, or artworks. But I still believe in personal contact. Of course there were experiences when my understanding totally changed, I still think, that’s just different points of view. Every one can have their own way to

和他們訪談讓我更了解他們的想法以及如何創作，直接對話也可以表現出他們的人格特質，所以我非常喜歡和藝術家訪談，可以的話我也會一直持續做下去。

要的是創造作品的藝術家，直接和他們訪談讓我更了解他們的想法以及如何創作，直接對話也可以表現出他們的人格特質，所以我非常喜歡和藝術家訪談，可以的話我也會一直持續做下去。

Z：你自己也訪談很多世界各地的藝術家，對你來說訪談的可能 J：在進行訪談之前，通常不都性是甚麼呢？你怎麼看待呢？會先對藝術家或作品做一些研究嗎？有沒有過經驗是看到別人評 A：我個人很喜歡做訪談是因為論這個藝術家的印象和你自己進可以和藝術家有直接的接觸。當行訪談的感覺完全不同的呢？或我開始做記者時我覺得當代藝術者是進行訪談之後對藝術家的印真的非常吸引人，當代藝術的世象完全改觀的呢？界充滿了驚奇。有些人可能會覺得作品比較重要，但對我來說重 A：有時候會。但我覺得別人寫 145

know a person or an art work and I won’t say what is right or wrong. For me, the personal contact with artists is the most important thing. J：When you started to do the interviews, did you do it for any purpose? You do it only for yourself or you also want to share it with others? Would you consider the readers when you are doing the interviews? A：Actually I do it for both. When I started to work in art circle I realize that the history of Taiwan’s contemporary art is fragmented. And there is a big gap between art and people,

there’s barely any social contact. The main reason I want to do this is that I want to rebuild the historical, or cultural connection between art and people. Of course it’s very complicated, some times I feel I don’t know the younger generation, but actually I don’t know the older generation as well. I think this is a social responsibility of curator, so maybe I can say that I do this to share with people. When I do this I also have to trace back to the history and I found the connection between us and the older generation, or the differences between us. Of course to rebuild the historical connection is a huge job,

或者是評論都是對認識藝術家的一種參考，我還是相信當面對話，當然有時候我的看法在訪談之後會有變化，但我覺得那只是觀點不同。每個人都可以有自己對某個藝術家或作品的看法，那是沒有對錯的，對我來說和藝術家的直接接觸是最重要的。

在藝術圈工作我發現當代藝術的歷史是非常斷裂的，而且和一般民眾之間有很大的隔閡，幾乎沒有甚麼社會連結。我開始做訪談最大的原因是想要重新建立歷史上或是文化上的連結。當然這是非常複雜的，有時我覺得我真不了解年輕的世代，但想想我也不是很了解我們的上一代，我想這也是做為策展人的社會責任之一，因此訪談也算是為了分享出去吧！當我開始做訪談我也會需要回溯到之前的歷史，那我就會發現自己和上一代的連結或者是異同之處，的確重建歷史脈絡是很龐大的工作我並不覺得可以靠

J：當你決定開始做訪談時，有甚麼目的嗎？你是為了自己去做這樣的訪談或者你想把這些訊息傳遞出去呢？在做訪談時你有考慮到讀者嗎？ A：基本上兩者都有。當我開始 146

I won’t think that I can complete it on my own, and I won’t give others any pressure to force them to understand. However, I will take it as a job of curator and keep on working on this. J：I would like to know how to get the things you do to more people? The interviews might be one form, but how to get contemporary art more accessible to the general society? A：There’s another reason why I choose interview as my method to know artists. Usually when we are having conversation, it’s in a more

casual way. If those thoughts are not spoken, but written by the artist or critiques, it’s going to be even more difficult for people to understand. In interviews we always use spoken language which is easier to understand. For example, once I had interview with a sound artist Lin, chi-wei. I focused more on the motivation of why he decided to use his body, use the sound, as a tool to express his idea. Though we also talked about the theory of sound and many professional things, I don’t think that part is understandable for normal people. So when I am reorganizing the content of interview I normally

自己完成，但我並不會想要強迫別人一定要了解這些歷史脈絡，基本上我會把它當作策展人的職責繼續進行下去。

我選擇用訪談這種相對容易理解的語言。比如說，有一次我訪問聲音藝術家林其蔚，我會比較具焦在他創作的動機，為什麼他選擇用自己的身體、用聲音來表達他的想法；當然在訪談中我們也談到很多聲音理論以及哲學概念，但我不會把這些專業語言歸類在大家都懂的範疇，所以當我在整理訪談資料時，我會保留這些比較專業的部分，把比較容易理解的部分分享給一般大眾，視狀況而定。

J：我想知道你如何把這些訊息推廣給大眾？面談或許是一種形式，但對你來說要怎麼讓當代藝術更接近一般大眾呢？

A：還有另外一個原因我選擇用訪談來做為認識藝術家的方式。當我們在進行對話時通常氣氛會是比較輕鬆的，如果這些概念不是用說的，而是用寫的或是藝評 Z：你陸陸續續進行訪談工作也來寫，那會更難讓人理解，因此大概十年了，在這段時間中你是

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separated the part for some particular professionals and the part which everyone can understand. It depends. Z：You have been conducting interviews for around ten years, within this decade, do you observe any changes? Or trend? A：I won’t say it as a trend. I see many young artists join in the art circle every year, some of them like to use the factor of animation or they like to do videos, which is not so popular ten years ago, I saw more installations in our generation. But I won’t consider that as a trend, that is just their personal characters. In

Taiwan, the contemporary art market boomed after 2005. If there’s a trend, that might be market-driven. Artists could be influenced by the market. However, what’s more important is that artists should keep on their track. Most of great artists I know they always stick with what they want to do. Z：Compare to them, the younger artists sometimes are rather unstable, do you have any advice for younger generation? A：I think when you’re young you have more time to do many experiments, try different things. As long as you know why you change your

否感覺到當代藝術界的一些變化在這十年間還是堅持在自己的創或者有甚麼潮流呢？作道路上。 A：我不會說這是潮流，當然每年有很多年輕藝術家加入，他們可能喜歡使用動漫元素或喜歡做錄像，這和以前不一樣，相對地以前我看到比較多裝置作品，但我並不覺得這是潮流，這些只是藝術家個人偏好或特質。在台灣，當代藝術市場的開啟大約是 2005年，如果說真有甚麼潮流，那或許是市場導向的，藝術家當然有可能受到藝術市場影響。但是重要的是他們知道自己要的是甚麼，我認識很多很棒的藝術家 150

Z：相對於這些成功的藝術家，有很多年輕藝術家的創作類型還不是很穩定，對他們你有沒有甚麼建議呢？ A：我想當人在年輕的時候總是有比較多時間去嘗試不同的事物，只要你知道自己為什麼要改變，是因為你創作需要而不是為了市場潮流或是別人的期待，那我想改變其實也沒甚麼不好，對於改變我的看法還蠻積極的，只要你知道你想要的是甚麼。

style, not only because of the market or because others are doing something else, it’s not that bad to change. I am very positive in facing changes. You just have to know what you really want to do. J：I think young generations are also easily influenced by the teachers. Nowadays in the school they are teaching so many things about philosophy, and that makes their artworks difficult for people to understand. What do you think about it? A：I won’t say that students don’t have to study any art history or western philosophy, but we have

to know that all these theories are mainly from the West. Which means their connection to the local society is very weak. I think what we should do is to let the students be aware of it. It’s still necessary to study, but what is the connection between their study and the society here, they should think about it. Foe example, in 2008 Taipei Biennial, curator Manray Hsu and Vasif Kuton introduced many political artists and art works into Taiwan and suddenly the students are crazy about it. They started to try to do political art, but do they really know what political art is? Do they really know what is happening in our society?

J：我想年輕的一代也很容易受到老師們的影響，如果現在學校裡教了很多哲學相關的概念，這也會讓藝術變得不容易理解，你自己的看法是甚麼呢？

政治藝術的作品和藝術家，頓時形成一股風潮，學生們都想要做政治藝術，但他們真的理解政治藝術是甚麼嗎？他們真的理解我們社會當中有些甚麼問題嗎？這才是重點，比如說在八零年代也有一些藝術家做了很多政治藝術的作品，他們反映出社會現實而且真的關心社會。如果現在的年輕藝術家做政治藝術，那他該去思考的是這和自己身處社會的連結是甚麼，而不是為了仿效政治藝術而創作。

A：我不會說念書是不重要的，我們還是需要學習藝術史或當代哲學，但我想有一點應該點出的試這些理論通常都不是在地的，學生們應該要知道這點。讀書當然重要，但是自己念的東西和自己身處的環境有甚麼連結，我們也應該去思考。比如說在2008年的台北雙年展，當時的策展人徐 J：為什麼你會說相較於八零年文瑞和瓦西夫．庫東引進了很多代的藝術家，現在年輕藝術家對 151

That is the point. In 80s many artists they did their artwork to reflect the real situation in the society because they really care about it. The social engagement should be in your society, not the environment which is so far away from your life. J：Why do you think the artist in 80s they really care about the society but the current young artists are rather less concern about it? A：Though we talked about the 80s artists but actually there were only a few of them. So I am not comparing the quantity of artists. In 80s we still have the martial law and the society is rather closed. What artists were

asking for is very specific, the freedom of being a citizen. On the other hand, the young generations who are doing the political arts they have no specific social engagement so it’s hard to see what exactly they concern. The world is getting more and more complicated. Whether the artists are doing the artworks for themselves, for the art, or they are doing this to show their concern to some particular issues. If they are doing the political art right now as an experiment, and they will go further and keep looking for the meaning of doing this, it’s not that bad. But we need to point out that what they

社會的理解比較少呢？

難理解他們想要表達的是甚麼。如果他們做這些政治藝術是一種實驗，他們會持續去尋找自己創作的目的和訴求，這樣做其實不壞，但我們必須點明，他們所學的和他們所處的社會可能是不同的，這些需要被檢驗。問：這聽起來很像藝術家對自己身為藝術家的身分認同。

A：雖然我剛提到八零年代的藝術家，但其實也就我們都知道的那幾個，因此我所比較的並不是藝術家的數量。在八零年代台灣社會是相對封閉的，在戒嚴時代有很多權利都是被禁止的，當時的藝術家有很多作品在反應這件事，他們的訴求明確。相較之下，現在的年輕藝術家在做作品時是否有思考到自己的訴求還有自己的社會介入？當然現在的社會很複雜，藝術家創作是為了自己、為了藝術，或者他們想表達某個明確的訴求，有時候很

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J：能不能和我們分享你對「雙年展現像」的看法呢？世界上現在有上百個雙年展，這讓雙年展本身都變成一個龐大的機制了。 A：我還是覺得雙年展和藝術博

learn might be different from what their real life (local environment) is. It has to be reviewed later. J: It sounds like it’s more about an artist’s identity of being an artist. J：Can you tell us what you think about the “biennial phenomena”. We have hundred biennials all over the world and somehow it has become institutional. And you were one of the curators of Taipei Biennial. A：I still think there’s difference between Biennials and Art Fairs. The Art Fair is directly reflected to the art market but biennials should

serve totally different function. However, some of the recent biennials are combined with the city tourism mechanism and even lack of its own subjectivity. If biennial is possible it should be a platform for contemporary art in different corner of the world to be able to communicate with each other. On the other hand, in Taipei Biennial, we have already more than ten years experience, I think it’s also the time to retrospect, to rethink the system of our biennial, has it served the function of communicating with other countries, is it the time to trust our local curators and empower them to

覽會還是有不同的，博覽會是市場機制的產物，它反應了市場需求，但我認為雙年展應該有不同的功能。雖然有很多雙年展現在變成都市在進行觀光發展的一環甚至喪失了主體性。如果雙年展做為世界各地的當代藝術交流的平台是可能的，那反過來看我們自己的台北雙年展，現在也有超過十年的歷史了，我們是否也該具有反思、重新檢驗的能力，重新來看我們雙年展執行的系統，是否有達到國際交流的目的？我們是否可以相信當代的策展人是有能力可以獨立完成策展的？那雙策展人的模式是否還是必要？

我們應該要有能力對自己的雙年展進行檢驗，這樣才能讓我們走得更遠。 Z：你自己對於身為策展人的期許是甚麼呢？你覺你在台灣當代藝術的角色是甚麼？ A：我希望，透過策展可以建構出台灣當代藝術的脈絡。有些策展人或許可以有個想法，找幾個藝術家來然後就可以策一個展覽，但對我來說，藝術家的狀態，他們想透過作品傳達的想法，是比策展論述還重要的。當然策展的方式每個人不同，這也

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curate the biennial alone instead of the co-curator model. We should be able to re-examine ourselves and try to move forward. Z：What is your expectation of being a curator? What is your position in Taiwan’s contemporary art? A：I hope, through curating we can map out the historical thread of Taiwan’s contemporary art. Some curators might be able to put up many artworks together and curate a show, but for me, the status of artists, and the idea they want to convey in art works, are more important than a curator’s statement. Of course there’re different ways of curating a show

沒有是非之分，但對我來說，透過策展想要達到的是對台灣歷史脈絡的建構，對社會的描述。我並不覺得為了策展而策展會行得通，我想一切最終還是要回歸藝術。 J：你是台灣人嗎？ A：是的 J：你有甚麼信仰嗎？ A：不算是，雖然台灣人有時候都會去拜拜或甚麼的，但我稱不上有信仰。

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and there’s no right or wrong, but to me, what I want to do through being a curator is to reflect to the context of Taiwan and be able to describe the art scene of Taiwan. I don’t think curate for curate’s sake is what I want to do, I think it should eventually come back to the art itself. J：Are you a Taiwanese? A:：Yes! J：Do you have any religion? A：Not exactly, though Taiwanese go to temple some times, but I won’t say I have strong religion.

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Roaming Art Field 如果Juliana有塊地……

As an interviews collection which tries to map out Taiwan’s art circle, we certainly cannot expect the meaning of it from the shallow answer. If we did so, it would become something like the answer for the question “Where is the Arts?” When trying to approach a question of impossible, what we need are those clues left behind. In the clues, they are useful information simultaneously. We can use it as “Tokyo Art Map” for the function of getting to entrance the Taiwan art world. (Actually, we never have something like Tokyo Art Map in Taiwan. Though there are still many things we don’t

have in Taiwan, we don’t have books for art education, we don’t have books for curator interviews, but somehow this book recorded something we need.) For someone who arrives here for the first time, this book can serve as a Taiwan Art Guide for the art planet. He or she will understand where to go and how to go immediately. Why is Taiwan different? Why is Taiwan’s democracy undemocratic? What are the subtle differences between Taiwanese and Chinese? (People in Mainland China are always reminding themselves to “Surpass Great Britain and catch up with the US”.) Just like what Hong-

作為一個試圖描繪出藝術圈的訪談，我們當然不能期待答覆者言談表面的意思，這就跟回答「藝術在哪裡？」是同樣的道理。在試圖逼近一個不可能的問題時，我們所需的是那些遺落的線索，就這些線索而言，他同時是些實用的資訊，這幾乎可以代替如 Tokyo Art Map的「入門」功能（要知道，台灣從來沒有這東東。然而，台灣沒有的還很多，我們沒有談藝術教育問題的書，沒有策展人訪談的書，但這些都透過「問」的方式被這本書記錄了），對一個初來乍到的人來說，將他視為藝術星球的Taiwan Art

Guide，可以很快知道哪邊可以去，哪裡該去，為什麼台灣人跟別人不同，台灣的民主是多麼的不民主，卻也可以區分出跟中國人的細微差異（中國人總是說：「超英趕美」），正如受訪者林宏璋所言，Juliana「倒」是以一個道道地地的外人眼睛來看這個藝術圈。透過一個陌生的語言詢問關於最深層、高密度的認同、信仰問題。當然，就一個台灣人的角度而言，這些訪談在回答「你是台灣人嗎？」有點言不由衷，但，這絕對不是一種批評，反而，這些 157

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john Lin said in the interview, Juliana is gazing the Taiwan art circle as an outsider. She is trying to approach the deepest, the most private questions of identity and religion. Obviously, in the perspective of local, the answers from interviewees of the question “Are you Taiwanese?” is slightly dishonest. However, this is definitely not a critique, it’s rather the real problem of the question: It is a question which cannot be described by any language. (What’s more is that, when you ask the question in Taiwanese or any dialect, it comes along with even more problems: “I just love Taiwan!”) For Tai-

wanese readers, when reading the short stories of Taiwan art circle, we should focus on the booming of an idea: The imagination of the gaze from the Other! In other words, how others look at us? Maybe in the end we come up with “Hey, my homeland is such a place of external!” Meanwhile, for the foreign readers who are unfamiliar with Taiwan, through those floating sentences of “ I don’t know why… but I it’s really nice!”, they can (and can only) try to catch the unsaid things: Taiwan is not a country, Taiwanese do care about politics, they care so much that they are totally frustrated.” (vice versa,

問題的真正原因，正是一個無論你用什麼語言問都問不出來的問題（甚至，當你用方言問問題，只會造成更多的困擾：「我就是愛台灣啦！」）。對台灣的讀者來說，在閱讀這些藝術圈二三事的同時，重要的是它不斷勾出一個想法，喚起我們對於一個凝視的想像，簡單的說，外人如何看待我們，如「我的故鄉真是個化外之地！」而對於不熟悉台灣的讀者來說，可以（也只能）在許多飄忽的答案中：「我不知道為什麼，但，非常棒」捕捉那些沒被說出來的事：「台灣不是國家……台灣人

其實關心政治到不行，關心到心都涼了。」（而同一句話，也可將詞彙換成藝術。）尋找台灣人的世界觀，台灣人對於國際的觀點……我們甚至透過這個文本，可以精神分析地說，「追根究柢，其實台灣也不想成為國家……」。這不正是一個關於主體的文本？更精確的說，關於一個綴上a-的主體，被踐斥的。也或許，你們看完後根本就覺得台灣沒有藝術圈這回事！

we can replace the word politics in to Arts.) Taiwanese’s sense of the world, points of views to be international……Through this text, we can say it analytically: Ultimately, Taiwan does not want to become a country. This IS a text about a subject. To be more precise, it is a subject with petit a, an abjected one. Or maybe when you finish the reading you will realize there’s no such thing called “Art circle” in Taiwan.

Zi an Chen 文陳璽安 159

... to be co

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continued

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Content

162

3_7

Critical point of view by Zoe Yeh

8_9

Story o poli _ story about the project

157_159

Zi-an Chen makes revolution of the book

162_163

Content

10_21

22_33

34_45

46_59

60_69

70_79

80_91

Yao Jui Chung

姚瑞中

Yu Chen Ta

余政達 Sam Su

蘇育賢 Tsui Kuang Yu

崔廣宇

Teng Yu Chin

曾御欽

92_103

104_115

116_127

128_141

142_155

Muchi Hsieh 謝牧岐 Yang Mao Lin

楊茂林 Huang Hua Chen

黃華真

Wu Darkuen

吳達坤

Amy Cheng

鄭慧華

Lin Hong John

林宏璋

Wu Chi Tsung

吳季璁

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賢育蘇 Su m Sa

Lin g

余

羅

政

喬

達

綾

Participants

Wu Darkuen 吳達坤 Yang Mao Lin 楊茂林 Tsui Kuang Yu 崔廣宇

Hu g an Hu aC

hi uc

岐

真

華黃

n he

牧謝

君

頤

沈

164

h Ye

an Sh

ng Ho

o ia Hs

Lin

e Zo

傅珊

蓉

璋

佳

宏

小

林

葉

Juliana Höschlová Zi an Chen 陳璽安

璁季吳 ng Ch iT su u W

Yu ng Ts e

he n

鄭

曾御

慧

欽

華

Yao Jui Chung 姚瑞中

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,Field,Políčko

Art in Taipei 台北的藝術 Editor Translation Graphic design Administrator

Zoe Yeh Zoe Yeh, Zi An Chen, Yu Chung, Naomi Shen Juliana Höschlová, Ming wei Liu Lo Chiao Ling, Fu Hsiao Shan

June, 2010 Picture rights and Art works rights reserved to the Artists. Sponzored by

xxfieldxx.blogspot.com

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