Jack Kirby Collector #29 Preview by TwoMorrows Publishing

Fully Authorized By The Kirby Estate

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68-PAGE ISSUE SPOTLIGHTING KIRBY’S 1970S MARVEL WO RK!

ISSUE #29, AUG. 2000 Feature-Length Unpublished Interview with

Jack and Roz Kirby As they discuss their early years together

Keith Giffen & Rich Buckler Talk about the Kirby influence on their 1970s work

Mike Gartland’s

A Failure To Communicate 1970s Marvel

Cover Gallery showing Jack’s uninked pencils

Kirby’s trials & Tribulations At

1970s Marvel Art From

Machine Man Black Panther Capt. America Devil Dinosaur Eternals And others

The Debut Of A

New Regular Column examining Comics influenced by The King

Unpublished Art including published pages Befo re They Were Inked, And Much Mo re!! Avengers and related characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

C o l l e c t o r

Issue #29 Contents You Can’t Go Home Again .................4 (a look inside 1970s Marvel) Captain, My Captain ..........................7 (the best Cap tale Jack ever did?) Conversations With Jack ..................1 2 (Ray Wyman shares a delightful chat with Jack and Roz Kirby) It Started On Yancy Street................2 2 (Alan Kupperberg takes us down his long & winding road of Kirby comics) Keith Giffen Interview......................2 4 (Lobo’s creator talks straight about Kirby & the current comics industry) NEW FEATURE: Kirby As A Genre..3 2 (Adam McGovern begins his new regular column about other artists’ works that are influenced by the King) CENTERFOLD: Devil Dinosaur .......3 4 (this one’s for you, Randy Hoppe!) Jack Who? ........................................3 6 (to put it mildly: they didn’t like Kirby) Rich Buckler Interview .....................3 8 (the self-described “chameleon” talks about his Kirby influences) Where Have All The Villains Gone?...4 3 (was Arnim Zola the best Kirby could come up with?) 1970s Cover Gallery .........................4 6 (gobs of Kirby’s 1970s Marvel covers, still in their original pencil form!) Tips for Frugal Kirby Collectors.......5 3 (you don’t have to spend a fortune to read Kirby’s best) The Return of the King.....................5 4 (did Jack make a difference at Marvel in the 1970s?) A Failure To Communicate: Part 6 ...5 5 (Mike Gartland examines Kirby’s layout work for other Marvel artists) Collector Comments.........................6 5

ISSUE #29, AUG. 2000

THE ONLY ’ ZINE AUTHORIZED BY THE KIRBY ESTATE

Our front cover is a new Klaus Janson reinking of these back cover pencils from Marvel Treasury Edition #7, featuring the Avengers. Our back cover is inked by Joe Rubinstein, from a Kirby convention drawing of Thena of the Eternals. Our thanks to both Klaus and Joe for their superb work.

Front cover inks: Klaus Janson Back cover inks: Joe Rubinstein Cover color: Tom Ziuko Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from published comics are reproduced here courtesy of the Kirby Estate, which has our thanks for their continued support.

COPYRIGHTS: Abomination, Angel, Arnim Zola, Attuma, Avengers, Baron Blood, Beast, Black Bolt, Black Knight, Black Panther, Bobby Drake, Bucky, Captain America, Crusaders, Cyclops, Daredevil, Defenders, Destroyer, Devil Dinosaur, Donna Maria, Dr. Druid, Dr. Strange, Eternals, Falcon, Fantastic Four (Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch, Invisible Girl), Ghost Rider, Giant-Man, Hawkeye, Hellcat, High Evolutionary, Hulk, Iceman, Iron Man, Juggernaut, Karkas, Leader, Liberty Legion, Machine Man, Mad Thinker, Magneto, Marvel Girl, Master Man, Miss America, Moon Knight, Moonboy, Moondragon, Mr. Little, Night Flyer, Nighthawk, Nova, Patriot, Power Man, Prof. Xavier, Quicksilver, Red Guardian, Red Rajah, Red Raven, Red Skull, Red Wolf, Reject, Rhino, Scarlet Witch, Sentinels, Spitfire, SubMariner, Super-Skrull, Swine, Thena, Thor, Tigra, Toad, Tony Stark, Toro, Triton, Ultimo, Union Jack, Valkyrie, Vision, Warren Worthington III, Wasp, Watcher, Water Wizard, Whizzer, Wonder Man, X-Men, Yellowjacket TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • Darkseid, Orion, The Losers TM & © DC Comics • Tiger 21, Victory characters TM & © Jack Kirby Estate • The Shield/Pvt. Strong TM & © Archie Publications.

The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 8, No. 29, Aug. 2000. Published bi-monthly by & © TwoMorrows Publishing, 1812 Park Drive, Raleigh, NC 27605, USA. 919-833-8092. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor. Eric Nolen-Weathington, Production Assistant. Single issues: $5.95 ($7 Canada, $9 elsewhere). Six-issue subscriptions: $24.00 US, $32.00 Canada and Mexico, $44.00 outside North America. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. First printing. PRINTED IN CANADA.

You Can’t Go Home Again Kirby’s 1970s return to the “Snake Pit” of Marvel Comics, examined by Mike Gartland & John Morrow (Editor’s note: The following article was compiled through published accounts, and particularly through interviews with current and ex-Marvel staffers and freelancers. The goal here is not to point fingers, but simply to put together as accurate an account of Kirby’s 1970s Marvel stay as possible. Some of our requests for interviews were denied, some of our interview subjects simply couldn’t remember many details, and still others wanted to remain anonymous for fear or reprisals from within the industry, so we won’t be “naming names” here. Nevertheless, our thanks go out to all those who contributed information for this article.)

hen Jack Kirby returned to Marvel in the mid-1970s, it was because he needed a change; but he was to discover that some things never change, while others, perhaps, change too much. Although Jack returned to Marvel in the Spring of 1975, this tale’s roots actually are found in late 1973, almost two years earlier. Jack was very disappointed and upset at the cancellation of his Fourth World books, and the news of the cancellation of Mr. Miracle in late ’73 led Jack to start thinking of breaking his then-contract with DC and looking elsewhere for work. Although the matter was resolved quickly with DC, the seed of discontent was planted. Stan Lee had always wanted Jack back (he never wanted him to leave in the first place). As Kirby neared the end of his DC contract, Stan made it known publicly in interviews that Marvel would welcome Jack’s return. But Kirby still harbored resentment toward Lee, stemming from his 1960s stay at Marvel. Stan once said to a mutual friend of the two, “If only Jack wouldn’t hang up on me, I’m sure something could be worked out.” Eventually, the failure to communicate (sorry, couldn’t resist) was smoothed over. Stan told Jack that Marvel was willing to make him an offer, so Jack, still under contract, sounded DC out about a new deal. DC, it became apparent to Jack, didn’t want him to stay on in his present capacity of writer/editor. Once Jack was sure that DC wanted someone else to write with him (or for him), Jack knew he would leave, and told Marvel he was ready to hear their offer. There appears to be a time overlap, where Jack is still doing Kamandi while already having signed on with Marvel, but Jack had some backlog already done on Kamandi. Once DC knew he was going to leave, they decided to bring on Gerry Conway to indoctrinate him to the series and perhaps clean-up some dialogue; this is why Conway is credited as writer/editor on the last Kirby Kamandis. Marvel offered a contract which Jack

(above) Page 3 pencils from Captain America #213, featuring the Red Skull—the only old villain Jack brought back. (top center) A July 1970 photo of the Marvel Bullpen by Steve Sherman. In addition to a never-published cover for a comedy book called “Foops”, pinned on the wall is Kirby’s “resignation” created by Marie Severin, using one of Jack’s old cigar butts Marie found in the office. Seeing this was how many staffers first heard Kirby had left Marvel in 1970. (next page) Splash page pencils from 2001 #9, featuring Mister Machine (later renamed Machine Man).

felt was the best he could obtain at the time. What Jack wanted, to put it frankly, was to be left alone to write and edit his own stories, and have no collaborators (in the storytelling sense) or tieins with other titles done by other people. (This shows how strongly Jack was determined to never again fall victim to losing credit for his concepts or creations—the hundreds of characters and/or ideas he gave Marvel in the ’60s, and was sometimes acknowledged for.) Once Jack returned to Marvel, several projects were discussed; the results of some are made clear in the books that were published. Captain America and the Black Panther were the only Marvel characters (co-created by Jack) that Kirby agreed to return to; everything else would be new concepts, unrelated to the then-current Marvel line. Although the new creations weren’t as noticeable, Captain America and Black Panther became somewhat conspicuous by their lack of involvement with the rest of Marvel. Not only would Jack keep them detached from Marvel continuity, but with the exception of the Red Skull, no established villains were used. The two heroes became involved in an action/adventure genre that could have showcased any action hero; it was entertaining and interesting, but weird to many Marvel fans. Another Kirby book would be based not on New Gods as so many thought (and claimed), but on the then-debated topic of Von Däniken’s book Chariots of the Gods. The comic was originally to be titled Return of the Gods, but since it too closely resembled the Chariots title, it became The Eternals instead, arguably the best of the “return to Marvel” series Jack did. (Interestingly, DC used the title “Return of the New Gods” when they brought back Jack’s opus in 1976 under new creative hands in First Issue Special #13, but abandoned it when they resurrected the New Gods book with #12 in 1977, perhaps because it was also deemed too similar to Von Däniken’s novel’s title.) When Marvel purchased the rights to 2001: A Space Odyssey, it was given to Jack to reproduce as a series. The gem of this run was Jack’s “Machine Man” (originally named Mister Machine until Marvel heard from Ideal Toys about their character of the same name). He was spun-off to receive his own series. When Marvel heard that DC had TV networks interested in turning Kamandi into a Saturday morning cartoon show, they asked Jack for a proposal of their own, and Devil Dinosaur was created. This may help explain why this series reads as it does, because it was devel-

oped with children in mind; of course, many Marvel fans panned Devil Dinosaur as beneath both Jack and them, which shows just how childish some can be. These were the books Jack worked on during this period; he wrote, drew, and edited them, then handed them in to Marvel—and then the problems began. To start with, Jack was in California and Marvel was in New York. There was no way he could tell what was being done to his work in the Marvel offices until it was usually too late. Jack would come to realize that Marvel had changed drastically since he originally left in 1970. There was no Stan Lee to oversee all production; in fact, Marvel had ballooned to such proportions that no one person could possible control it. According to one Marvel staffer of the time, “It was a mess.” Marvel was now being handled by the next generation, many of whom were fans who grew up on Kirby’s work; younger, aspiring people who made the transition from fan to professional. When it was announced that Jack was returning, some of these young writers very much wanted to work with Jack. Some, on the other hand, felt that someone who left the company the way Jack did shouldn’t have been welcomed back with such enthusiasm. When it became apparent that Jack would not

swap spit with the lovely Latina babe), but does anyone remember the cast of the relatively recent Next Men? My opinion of Jack’s ’70s run on Captain America, even when measured against the fine work of Steve Englehart, J.M. DeMatteis, Mark Waid and others, is it still holds up pretty well both in terms of the Kirby Kanon and Pop entertainment in general. With that having been said, one must bear in mind: All of the aforementioned writers were essentially putting their own spin on someone else’s character. No one (with the exception of his former partner, Joe Simon) has the right to say Jack’s Cap was “wrong.” You could say that it wasn’t your cup of java but you can’t say, “But—Cap wouldn’t...”. That’s like saying Frank Miller was the only one who knew how to write Batman and who the hell were those Bob Kane and Bill Finger guys?

Captain, My Captain by Rex B. Ferrell have read endless reams of praise for Jack Kirby’s legendary Sixties’ tenure at Marvel, to say nothing of the extraordinary “Fourth World Saga” for DC/National. However, amidst all of the praise heaping, the comics that made me a diehard Kirby fan have been maligned, spat upon, and downright dissed! I’m talking about when Jack finally got a chance to fly solo on his own co-creation— Captain America! While I haven’t yet read the seemingly excellent compilation of the first five issues from the ’40s, I have pored over numerous reprints of the Sixties comics and found them to be action-packed episodes of jingoism masquerading as patriotism. Jack’s third tenure on the series was truly a solo effort in the writing department so there is no Joe Simon or Stan Lee to take the credit or the blame. As far as I’m concerned, the phrase “third time’s the charm” really fits in this case. My first exposure to the Kirbyworks was from those 1970s Captain Americas so I am not as enamored with the writing of Stan Lee as are other people. Although witty and melodramatic, I thought Lee’s stuff tended to get a little predictable. (I’m sorry, but Dr. Doom, Doc Ock and Dormammu all sound alike!) I don’t feel there is a way you could confuse the philosophic Darkseid with the deliciously devious Red Skull! Still, I am here to praise Kirby, not bury Stan Lee. (I like ’em both!)

Cap & The Historical United States With a character named after our country, one is faced with the reality of two Americas: The American Dream and The Historical America, the one run by a government that has not always lived up to

Jack’s Writing Style Some have said, erroneously, that “Jack couldn’t do wordsmithing,” or other such twaddle. True, at times his use of grammar was inaccurate and in other spots, his diction was off (using “destruct” instead of “destroy,” for instance), but how many times has the word “Fortuitous” been misused by some of our Pretentious Purveyors of Puke who call themselves “Writer/Artists”? (“Fortuitous” is not a synonym for “Fortunate”!) One should point out, minus the air of apology, that Jack may not have been formally trained as a writer; still, he was a voracious reader and thus, followed the prime axiom for all aspiring writers: “Duh, learn from example!” Jack had a good ear and since they were his characters, he knew how he wanted them to sound. I find his style unique, vibrant and refreshing as it holds up very nicely, twenty years later. The critically-inclined can have a field day with things such as Jack’s wacky slang or kooky names for some of his characters but they are part of what separates the work of Jack Kirby, Will Eisner, Johnny Craig, and others from the Stan Lee “Wish-l-Wuz” crowd. You see, every would-be Tolstoy should remember the first lesson from Creative Writing 101: One must never use “vogue” words. After the unpublished Soul Love fiasco from just a few years before his return to Cap, Jack must have understood this, despite pressure he may have received from the Marvel Editorial Elite. This is why, 20 years later, I can laugh at “Blazing Bullfrogs,” whereas the “Jive Turkeys” and “Sweet Christmases” by supposedly more talented writers of that era make me want to slit my wrists! The highbrows of today’s comic world can chuckle over the names of General Heshin and Donna Maria (personally, I would have loved to have seen Cap

Kirby’s action-packed pencils for Captain America #207, page 8.

Conversations With Jack: Roz & Jack (Part I) Based on interviews from August 1989 through June 1992 Compiled and edited by Ray Wyman, Jr. Copyright ©1999-2000 by Ray Wyman, Jr. (During my extensive interviews with Jack for The Art of Jack Kirby, every so often Roz would walk into the living room where Jack and I had set up camp and join the conversation. On some of those occasions we would get into a discussion about how they met, their life together, and other family matters. Roz also had a better grasp of dates, so her input had the effect of keeping Jack “honest.” I have taken many of these impromptu moments and treated them as one contiguous interview. The reader will hopefully enjoy the very candid and wonderful examples of their relationship as did I.—Ray Wyman) ROZ KIRBY: How are you guys doing? JACK KIRBY: We are running the range of comics here. RAY WYMAN: You want to stick around? Give us some pointers? ROZ: I’ll keep this guy honest. You never know what will come out of his mouth. RAY: You’re going to keep him honest? ROZ: You know what I mean. He’ll say anything. JACK: I’ll just blab the whole thing. RAY: Okay. Well, I’ll keep it simple today. Let’s start with how you two met. ROZ: You want to know when we met? RAY: How, when, where, you know. For posterity, Roz. I want to know all the sordid details. JACK: Oh, there’s no mystery. ROZ: Well, I’m not telling you everything. RAY: We’ll see. Actually, I’ll just wait until you’re out of the room and ask Jack the juicy stuff. JACK: Oh, there’s plenty of that. ROZ: The first time… well, Jack was living in Brooklyn in this two-

A 1985 shot of Jack in his home studio. Photo by James Van Hise.

story, kind of brownstone house. His family lived downstairs, and we moved upstairs. I was just a little over 17 years old, and Jack was 5 years older. The first time I saw him he was playing ball in the street; he was wearing these little bathing trunks. He was playing ball with his brother who is 6 foot tall and Jack was only about 5 foot 6, and some other guys. My cousin, Pearl, was with me and she was also 5 years older than me. We were watching the boys play. RAY: The cousin that I met? ROZ: Yeah, Pearl. We were laughing and joking around. She says, “I’ll take the older one and you take the younger one.” I says, ‘I don’t want him; you take him. I’ll take the other one.’ We argued who should get Jack and we hadn’t even moved in yet. The furniture was going up and the parents were getting to know each other. In those days, everyone sat on their stoops. That’s where we were sitting when Jack came over—you know how guys come over to the girls—and started talking to me. He was very polite and introduced himself, his brother and his friends. As it turned out, all the other guys were paying attention to Pearl, because she was older. But Jack stayed with me and we got to talking about this and that. Finally he says, “By the way, I’m an artist. You want to come on in and I’ll show you my drawings?” I Examples of Jack’s early comic strip work from the late 1930s, around the time he met Roz. Jack saved stats of these in his files. 12

instantly thought that it was one of these old gags, you know, the ones RAY: A favorite song? that guys use to get the girls into their bedrooms. But I figured that I ROZ: Actually, I never had a real favorite song. It was all good. was pretty safe. My mother and father were right there and his mother JACK: We would go into the Paramount and hear the bobby-soxers and father were right there, so I went in and was very surprised to scream when Frank Sinatra came out. find that he actually had drawings to look at! That was the first time I RAY: So what happened next? Engagement? When did that happen? ever knew anything about comic books—he was working on Captain ROZ: Jack asked me to marry him on my eighteenth birthday. We just America; there were drawings everywhere on the walls and his table. kind of took it for granted that it was going to happen, but he was so RAY: So what was it like living above the Kurtzbergs? cute about it. ROZ: Well, the family was very quiet. The apartments were very simple. RAY: Jack? Cute? What’d he do? JACK: They were railroad apartments. ROZ: He was a gentleman—he was always a gentleman. We were ROZ: Railroad apartments. married on May 23, 1942; I was 19. RAY: Oh, arranged like boxcars? JACK: Yes. ROZ: You go right into the living room, then you have the dining room and then the kitchen, the bedroom. All in one line. JACK: One room succeeded the other, the doors were all in a straight line, no hallway—that was a luxury. And again, the kitchen was somewhere in the middle. You could shoot a cannon through all the doors and never hit any of the walls. ROZ: When we started dating, we would stay downstairs and sit on the couch in the parlor. His mother and father were right behind the glass door in the bedroom, which was the second room. So you had to be very quiet; you couldn’t make any noise. If you fooled around, you had to be pretty quiet about it! RAY: No, you guys didn’t do that? JACK: Yes, we did. ROZ: He put his arm around me occasionally. JACK: We did more than that. ROZ: He doesn’t need to hear all the details. Anyhow, we would be down there for quite a while and then my father was right upstairs, so about 3 o’clock in the morning, he would come down with the garbage, look in and say, “Oh, Roz is still up?” Can you imagine anyone coming down at 3 o’clock in the morning to take the garbage out? That was his excuse for me to get upstairs. RAY: So, did either of you pull that one on any of your daughters? JACK: No. I’d just throw the bums out. RAY: What kind of music did you listen to? JACK: Oh, they had jazz of course, but they had swing. RAY: What was the music that you guys were into? JACK: We loved dancing to swing. ROZ: It was Frank Sinatra’s time. The big bands. JACK: Frank Sinatra was just a young man at the time. He was just emerging into popularity, and the girls loved him. He was at the Paramount Theater, and when I took Roz out on a date, I took her to see Frank Sinatra and whatever else was playing on Broadway. RAY: Bing Crosby? JACK: No. Stunning pencils from the cover of FF Annual #11, featuring a trio of 1940s characters. ROZ: Crosby was more radio at the time. 13

ROZ: My father’s, too. RAY: “All your cousins and your aunts,” huh? ROZ: I mentioned that we went bike riding a lot. We did that because we lived on what was known as the Belt Parkway, and they had the bicycle strip there. But he was never on a bike in his life, so I taught him how to ride a bike. So the first time he went on a bike he hit the back of a truck and he went flying into the horse drawn wagon. RAY: Ho, Jack! JACK: Yes, I never rode a bike. I hated bikes. ROZ: [Laughs] He went right into it and right over the horse and landed someplace. JACK: The second time we rode down Prospect Parkway and she rode on one side of this railing and I rode on the other side. I couldn’t steer very well and I went right over the railing. RAY: Get hurt? ROZ: He landed on his head, but didn’t get hurt. JACK: The hard part was getting back on the bike. ROZ: Jack was never very good on a bike. JACK: I was great on skates, but lousy on bikes. RAY: Roller skating? JACK: Yes. I had it down pretty good. ROZ: You didn’t go too often. I went a lot more. After Jack was drafted, I went roller skating with my cousins. JACK: Well, let’s put it this way. She was a better athlete than I was. ROZ: Yeah, that’s true. I was. JACK: It is because that kind of thing wasn’t my kind of thing. I did all these things because she did them. ROZ: We learned how to skate in the streets, then we went to Prospect Park—there were plenty of open spaces there. They had these metal wheels then. Later on, we started going to the rinks and we rented skates that had wooden wheels. RAY: So, you got married… May 23, 1942. ROZ: That’s right. We’ve been married for 47 years. RAY: Should I live so long. And you just took it for granted that you were going to get married. Was that it? JACK: Oh, yes. ROZ: Well, we were going together for about 3 months, and in those days when you go together with someone for 3 months, you are going steady. (above) Jack and Roz’s wedding photo, taken May 23, 1942. RAY: Roz, how did he propose marriage? (below) The dapper couple when they renewed their wedding vows in 1992. Photo by Shel Dorf. ROZ: We were sitting at the park one day and he took out this engagement ring. He didn’t say “I love you” and all that kind JACK: It was a rotten trick, but very sociable. of schmaltz. He says, “I don’t want you seeing anyone else” and he put ROZ: We went to Coney Island a lot and we took walks along the the ring on my finger. boardwalk. We were close to the ocean and the boardwalk was very nice, especially at night. We did the things that any normal, healthy couple would do. JACK: Coney Island was terribly crowded. Everybody loved the beach. There was little room to walk. At night you were stepping over people. Oh, we would step across their heads. Some would be making love and we would step over them. RAY: Sounds like it was one big love fest. JACK: Oh, it was! ROZ: We were a large family and we would have parties quite often, go visit relatives and the grandparents. There was always a get-together of some kind. JACK: Families were closely knit at the time. ROZ: The cousins all lived close by, too. You would have a cousin on one street and another cousin on another street. JACK: Gilbert and Sullivan said something like that: “All your cousins and your aunts.” It was true because families would often entail many people. In my case, my cousins moved out of New York. My family was the only one that stayed. In her case, everyone was there. All her mother’s cousins and her aunts. 16

JACK: She had about five boyfriends. ROZ: It wasn’t five. JACK: Four boyfriends, would you go for that? ROZ: It sounds good. JACK: One of them was a piano player. I discouraged all of them. I knew when I saw Roz that I wanted her and nobody else. I went out with a variety of girls and none of them pleased me as well as Roz. Well, she had a lot of class, which she still does, and the girls around my way—well, they were gyrating all over the place and she wasn’t like that. She was quiet. ROZ: I was, I was very quiet. Now I talk a lot. JACK: She was a quiet girl. She had a lot of what I thought was dignity and she came from a quiet family, very wonderful people. In fact, I loved her family. Everything about her was right. ROZ: But you always fought with my sister. JACK: Well, I discouraged your sister because I felt she was going out with the wrong kind of guys. ROZ: He would chase all her boyfriends away. JACK: And her boyfriends would sometimes be 3 or 4 in a row waiting for her to come out of the house, and I come into the house and I would dump these guys. I would upend the chairs and these guys would land on the floor and I would kick them all out of the house because I felt those were not the kind of guys her sister should be going out with. ROZ: I thought my sister was going to kill him. RAY: Oh man. This really happened? JACK: Yes. And her sister was furious because I was ruining her dates; but I felt I was doing the right thing because I knew people, and I knew the right man would come along. All I knew then was that I didn’t like these guys. RAY: Anita? ROZ: That’s my little sister. RAY: Obviously, she finally met her man. ROZ: Yeah, she married Jack’s sergeant. That was a cute story. Before Jack went overseas, he went to Atlanta for three months. They made him an automobile mechanic, and he can’t even change a tire. My sister was 16 at the time and she was going to come down for a visit. So Jack helped me fix her up with a date. The first one was with a Texan who hated her. They went on the bus and she almost started a riot because she put an old Black woman in the front seat. JACK: Remember, those were different times. There was a lot of things that had to be ironed out. You couldn’t do that sort of thing at that time. Certain people had to go through the back of the bus, and Anita had what people thought back then was very liberal. She had a wonderful mind and was very, very high-spirited. She wasn’t going to stand for this bus driver telling this woman to sit in the back when she had a right to any seat on the bus. ROZ: My sister told the old woman to sit down with her and the bus driver stopped

the bus and threw them both off the bus. The Texan was so embarrassed. He brought her back and he said, “I’m through with her; get her out of here.” JACK: I was in the barracks trying to go to sleep when the Texan came in mumbling, “Never saw such a girl in my life. I’m not going out with that chick again.” I got the whole story from him mumbling in the barracks. He was a witness to the entire incident. He said he slid under the seat, he was so embarrassed. It was really comical the way he was reacting to this whole event. ROZ: The second date was with Jack’s sergeant, Morris Katz. He was about 10 years older than my sister; she was 16, he was 26. They hated each other right from the beginning. They went out but they absolutely hated each other. She was with us for a week and then she

Page 10 pencils from Captain America #194.

wall of DC’s production department (never Bullpen). When DC Production Vice-President Sol Harrison discovered this forgery, he was shocked. Sol avowed quite vehemently that Marvel wouldn’t get away with publishing their Mar-vell bearing a Beck visage. As usual in those days, DC didn’t get the joke. Sol didn’t joke about the product (except for referring to one of DC’s war titles as Our Farting Forces). Sol’s sense of humor favored the macabre. When Sol attended the funeral of letterer Milt Snappin’s A Personal Reminiscence by Alan E. Kupperberg mother, it was the prototype for Mary Tyler Moore’s classic “Chuckles Bites The Dust” episode. t started on Yancy Street. At least it did for me. I first “met” Jack So, normally, only two events in the staid course of the DC universe Kirby on Yancy Street—or, more accurately, via the cover of would, like a giant rogue comet or invading singularity, disturb the Fantastic Four #29, which promised a story by that name, within. magisterial and usually unalterably eternal orbits at DC Comics: The I’ve wanted to walk the same streets Jack Kirby walked ever since. arrival of a new Joe Kubert Tarzan book, and the other J.K.— Jack I’ve been lucky enough to walk and work with many of Jack Kirby’s Kirby’s—latest “special delivery.” Even hardened and cynical long collaborators. I’ve been scripted by Stan Lee and Larry Leiber. Inked time production department grunts Morris Waldinger and Joe by Wally Wood, Neal Adams, Joe Sinnott, Vinnie Colletta, Frank Letterese would join the gaggle and goggle in appreciation as each Giacoia, John Romita, Chic Stone, Mike Esposito. I’ve inked Steve Ditko. new Fourth World episode unfolded. Others, like George Roussos, John Verpoorten, Sol Brodsky, and Paul Funky Flashman absolutely made waves the moment it arrived in Reinman, I worked with in their various later careers in production the office. If my memory serves me, within a day or so of its arrival, a and as colorists. I shared studio space with Syd Shores. Some, like Don certain Houseroy had paid an undercover visit to DC and had a Heck, Bill Everett, Herb Trimpe, Dick Ayers and, indeed, Jack Kirby chuckle reading this now “infamous” tale. himself, were merely acquaintances. Wonderful, funny, patient Jack Adler Some, like Frankie G., Vinnie and Woody ran DC’s coloring department, among his were loved, and now, often missed other duties. When Tommy Nicoletti, Jerry friends of cherished memory. Serpe, or Paul Reinman would deliver the I’ve worked with them and reveled color guides for a Kirby book, Adler would in their friendship and the “mystiquereview it, as he did all their efforts. Adler by-association” it afforded me. But Jack would often “throw” a YRB2 (red brown) or Kirby was one of a kind. He did it his a YBR2 (dark green) into a panel behind a way and made it look easy—“look” being three-quarter character close-up with an the operative word here. open background. A touch as small as this By early 1970 I was a regular pest— would invariably make an already sizzling er—visitor to Marvel’s small, six room, Kirby page pop like a firecracker. dozen-person office. I often contributed The gracious Gerda Gaettel was another custom-written “fan-mail” for correspondirect link for me to Kirby’s Golden Age days. dence-starved letters pages on request. She proofread his DC titles in the 1970s, just In Marvel’s tiny but happy Bullpen as she had his Timely titles in the 1940s. I watched that dear soul Frankie Giacoia Deadman was to make his appearance inking the finishing flourishes on the in the Forever People and word came back to Fantastic Four #97 cover he was delivering. DC via Jack’s New York liaison, E. Nelson That was my first introduction to a Kirby Bridwell, that Jack needed Deadman art and original, and made to me by another true story reference. Being, at that time, the original. Frank and I later became almost buttinski of all time, my ears opened wide. brothers and I still miss him daily. Now, I don’t loan my books. My books I watched Bill Everett touch up his are like... well, my children. own inks on Thor #174. My letter But this was for the King. remarking on that issue’s “Crypto-Man” And he was about to interpret Neal Adams’ appeared in Thor #177’s letter column. masterpiece. Kirby and Adams. My-TwoVinnie Colletta’s inks were also often Favorite-Heroes-In-One-Adventure-Together. subject to Everett’s augmentation or I volunteered to loan Jack my own perreworking at the request of Stan or pro(above) Kupperberg’s layout for the cover of Invaders #32. sonal collection of Strange Adventures. Off duction honcho Sol Brodsky. (next page) Kirby’s pencils, before a needed Thor facelift (inset). they went to California. The conveyer belt on Marvel’s photoAnd you’d better believe I got them back in pristine shape and in stat machine bore the manufacturer’s imprinted admonition: “Feed a timely manner. And you’d better believe I’ve still got them. Prints Face Up.” Photostat guru and comedy legend Stu Schwartzburg Of course, as a dyed-in-the-wool Superman fan, I’d long dreamt had inked in a cartoon below it portraying a hungry dog lying on his of a Kirby Superman. So I was as disappointed as everyone else when back, his master offering the supine pup a tidbit, saying, “Here, Prince!” DC had artists Al Plastino, and then Murphy Anderson, bring the And there was always the great Mimi Gold. I’ll always love Mimi. famous Kryptonian physiognomy into line with the DC house style. Within a year I was hard at work in the production department Sometimes Superman’s face was “whited-out” with Sno-Pake and of National Periodicals Publications (DC Comics). Vinnie Colletta’s work was re-inked. Sometimes the inked face was Whereas Marvel operated like a small family of merry upstarts, pasted over. Sometimes it was literally cut out of the page and DC was “Big Business” and always a serious operation. Them folks patched in. Sometimes Vinnie left the face uninked and it was passed wore ties to make comic books. There was no running in the halls. on to Anderson. Murphy regularly worked in the tiny, airless room Shortly after DC revived the classic Fawcett Captain Marvel in DC set aside for freelancers’ use. Why ever and what ever way they Shazam!, some freelancer xeroxed a C.C. Beck Marvel head onto a Jim were accomplished, I still feel these alterations were a sad mutilation. Starlin, Marvel Comics Captain Marvel cover. This was pinned to the 22

It Started On Yancy Street

Keith Giffen Interview Interviewed by Jon B. Cooke, transcribed by Eric Nolen-Weathington (Keith Giffen entered the field of comics at Marvel in the ’70s with a very Kirbyesque style. He became a fan-favorite for his work on Marvel’s Defenders (inked by Mike Royer) and DC’s Legion of Super-Heroes, and as writer on Justice League, and went on to make his mark on such characters as Ambush Bug, Lobo, The Heckler, and Trencher. This interview was conducted by phone in February 2000.)

at Marvel or when he was doing his DC war work? KEITH: No, when he was over at Marvel, when he took over Iron Man. Actually my first real solid exposure to him was when Giant-Man, who was my all-time favorite Marvel character, was thrown out of Tales to Astonish and Sub-Mariner came in. TJKC: And this Adam Austin artist shows up? KEITH: Yeah, the Adam Austin stuff. And then Iron Man finally led to Daredevil. But there were always Jack Kirby books. There was always the FF, there was always Thor or Tales of Suspense or some older comics I was always digging out that had the titles torn off. I probably had most of the early FF. It’s just that none of them had the top half of the cover. [laughs] Very strange collection.

THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: Just to get some background, you’re from New Jersey? KEITH GIFFEN: Yeah, born and bred. I was born back in ’52 in Queens, New York, and my first year my parents moved to New Jersey. Although there was one distinction from Queens, NY, and that is the first person who ever held me besides my parents and various doctors was our downstairs neighbor, Whitey Ford. He wasn’t making money hand over fist way back then. [laughs] TJKC: [laughs] When do you remember your first exposure to comics? KEITH: I remember exactly. My mother used to do tailoring work, sewing work for neighbors and friends. She was really handy and capable of cobbling things together out of patterns. So a lot of the women in the neighborhood would go over there and pay her to do what they couldn’t do. And there was this one woman who worked at one of these—I don’t know what they’re called, but they were these big paper plants where all of the comics came with the titles torn off to be destroyed. And she would just scoop handfuls up and bring them to my mother, and she would pass them on to me. The first comic book I remember, and a fan was kind enough to send me a copy so I’ve actually got it—I don’t remember the number, but it was a World’s Finest issue. It was when Batwoman got Superman’s powers. All I could remember about it for years was that it had this big green monster with Mickey Mouse gloves on the cover and Batwoman zooming down. That was my first exposure to comics. That really stood out among the Archies and the various others. From there it was an easy slide to the Fin Fang Foom and the Goom, Son of Goomba books, which are probably my first exposure to Jack Kirby before I knew who he was. TJKC: Were you attracted to Jack’s work? Was there something in it? KEITH: There was something in it that fascinated me. I don’t know if I’d say ‘attracted’ back then. TJKC: Repelled? [laughs] KEITH: No, no, no. I suppose a perverse fascination. It didn’t look like anything else that was out there. During my early comic book collector days I was a much bigger fan of Gene Colan than of Jack. Jack was something that grew on me, like a taste for martinis. It was only after I began in comics that I realized all the work he had done and all the memories I had that were locked into him. I began to understand how important he was, but it was a gradual process. I was a stupid kid. TJKC: Were you into Gene Colan when he was over

(above) The pencils to the cover of Fantastic Four #172.

TJKC: [laughs] You knew the title of the book though, right? KEITH: Absolutely, absolutely. They were wonderful, wonderful books back then. TJKC: You were an avid Marvel collector? KEITH: No. I was an avid comic book collector. I tend to go after what I like. For a while there it was almost purely Marvel, because only Marvel was doing anything that was sparking my imagination and getting my attention. There were things—you know, the Neal Adams Deadman stuff, Nick Cardy’s Bat Lash. So there was some DC stuff, but for the most part it was Marvel. I loved the Tower books, as well. Whatever sparked my interest. The first four or five issues of Creepy. TJKC: When did you start drawing? KEITH: When I was eight years old, I decided I wanted to draw these strange things. TJKC: And did you draw your own comic books? KEITH: Oh, yeah, yeah. All sorts of odd little characters that I would farm around to friends and they’d read them and think, “What an odd friend we have.” [laughter] Miserable, wretched little things. I’ve heard Erik Larsen, before he had the fire, held onto everything he did dating back to maybe the first time he held pencil to paper. But I still don’t do that to this day. TJKC: You don’t save anything? KEITH: No, because I put it down and I loathe it. [laughter] And it takes me a long time to make peace with something I’ve drawn. A long time. TJKC: Do you recall any of the names of the characters? Anything you want mentioned for posterity? KEITH: Oh, boy. No, the only one I can remember was when I was in tenth grade goofing around with a character called Lobo who I finally did something with later down the line. Although, I didn’t call him Lobo. I called him Lunatik with a “k.” And then Marvel got the name and at Marvel I went back and revisited the character. But other than that, no, I can’t remember. Probably, these bizarre little things like a rip-off on the Sub-Mariner called Finman. I really have no memory, but then if you asked me what I was working on last week I’d probably have to refer to notes. [laughs] (above) Unpublished 1990s Giffen penciled page from the never-completed Topps Comics Victory series. TJKC: Did you specifically want to be a comic book artist? business next week.” [laughs] I said, ‘That’s interesting,’ and after I KEITH: Yes. Specifically comic book artist. I had no interest in advertising hung up the phone with her I thought maybe I should just take the bit or any of that. It was always geared toward doing comic book work. in my teeth and start at the top and get turned down all the way down. Just wind up someplace. Back then the top was Marvel, so I called up TJKC: Were you known in school as being the artist? Marvel. I don’t know who the secretary was then, but it was not the KEITH: No, no, no. I was just this odd kid. I cut so close to nerd that most positive—“yeah, um, bring your portfolio in and they’ll look at it really didn’t matter. it and you can pick it up tomorrow.” I was stupid enough. I go into TJKC: [laughs] And when did you start developing a portfolio? New York and drop off the portfolio and I go home. Next day I figure KEITH: I didn’t. I broke into comics by doing everything wrong. I was I’ll go get it and I thought, “No that’s not a good idea.” So I let a day working as a hazardous material handler and I took a week off and go by and rather than just go get it, I called. And the woman said, said, ‘Hey, I think I’ll break into comics.’ So I just drew up a bunch of “Get in here now.” So I go in and she’s yelling at me, she’s really pictures and slapped them together. I figured, let me call up the compissed off at me. It took a while for it to sink in that apparently Ed panies and find out how you do this. I didn’t want to start at the top. I Hannigan—prior commitments had forced him off this back-up strip wanted to start at the bottom. I didn’t want Marvel, I didn’t want in a b-&-w magazine called The Sword and the Star. And Bill Mantlo, who Charlton. Atlas was publishing then. So I called up Atlas and the woman was the writer, happened to see my samples laying around and said, was so positive on the phone. “Oh, yes. Bring your portfolio. Absolutely. “I like him; why don’t we get this guy?” And they couldn’t contact me, We’ll take a look at it. Blah, blah, blah. However, we’re going out of 25

As A Genre

A new regular feature examining Kirby-inspired work, by Adam McGovern

atching the dynamism of Jack Kirby’s design, and mining the cast of characters he created or collaborated on, has long been an imperative of mainstream comics. Now, as generations of artists come into their own for whom Kirby-influenced art is the primary frame of reference rather than one prominent approach, and as Kirby’s pivotal place in the pantheon of pulp culture is belatedly acknowledged, there are proliferating examples of creators who channel his style to a degree unthinkable among his contemporaries, and revivals of his concepts which make them ever more central to the mythos of his two main employers, Marvel and DC. From time to time this column will examine recent homages to “the King,” from stylistic emulations, to current treatments of his characters, to the ways in which his successors handle acknowledging him by name.

M (this page) Thomas Scioli’s very Kirbyesque work from The Myth of 8-Opus, available now. © Thomas Scioli.

(next page) Walter Simonson’s stellar work from Orion #4. © DC Comics.

There’s no better way to start measuring the Kirby influence than to note how far beyond the mainstream it reaches. Thomas Scioli’s The Myth of 8-Opus is a selfpublished indy initially bankrolled by the Xeric Foundation, alternative-comics philanthropists perhaps best known for having funded the original Castle Waiting. This quest saga of a mysterious drifter on the intergalactic plains (the first issue of which should be on sale as you read this) incorporates not only Kirby’s look but also his sensibility in a

The Power of Myth

way which shows the true freshness of the enthusiast rather than the stasis of the imitator. First and foremost there is, of course, the art, which goes beyond almost all current Kirby tributes to not only evoke the rendering style (a rare enough gift to master), but also to apply and advance the all-important compositional sense; some of the most dynamic layouts you’ve seen in a long time, you’ll see here. Also present is Kirby’s hallucinatory imagination; the first issue finds our hero searching through the remains of a dying world shaped like a gargantuan human corpse, with a mysterious and deceptively utopian city thriving upside-down on the ceiling of its skull! And we have Kirby’s fevered classic/pop-culture mix-and-match, creating fresh recombinations on each stir; the mytho-technological wordplay of the title character’s name alone is an audacious gem (if it’s not coming to you, say it to yourself fast or consider the first issue’s title, “8-Opus Wrecks”— which, with storytelling economy in the manner of the master, doubles as the start of the narration’s first sentence!). Along the way we get a few of Kirby’s idiosyncrasies, too. Some of the narrative transitions could be a bit smoother, some of the anatomical passages a bit more convincing, and some of the exposition tightened up; and the covers show how much Scioli’s intricate art could benefit from color or at least tones. But most of these cavils are a product of the full-speed-ahead creativity that makes

Machine Man and Devil Dinosaur but I wasn’t very impressed at the time. The Black Panther was fun from the start! I eagerly awaited every issue and it never bothered me that Jack ignored everything from Jungle Action, a book I had enjoyed for about a year. Even Ricky liked Kirby’s Panther at first, but he really made fun of the Black Musketeers in a later issue and quit reading. We didn’t always understand Jack. I can see that now. We were used to different comic books and Jack’s work for Marvel was strange to us. We got used to it, we matured, we learned a little more about Jack’s legacy. Jack was always ahead of his time but, paradoxically, he was often a little behind his time as well. I don’t think we were quite ready for Jack in 1975, but he was always ready for us, and waiting for the day when we might come around.

Jack Who? by Tony Seybert

hose of us who grew up in the ’70s remember the weekly missions. The careening bicycles, the cracked sidewalks and the alleys, the younger siblings to be ditched or looked after, the chores that had to be finished before you could decamp. And the wild final approach as we raced across the parking lot and descended on the drugstore like marauding Huns. One Tuesday at the end of 1975, there was something unusual about one of the comic books we all enjoyed. Some guy named Kirby had taken over on Captain America. None of us was much over twelve years of age, and the name of Jack Kirby didn’t mean much to us. We quickly reached a consensus on Captain America #193 and the first chapter of the “Madbomb” storyline. To phrase it in the most polite manner possible, we didn’t like it. I bought most of the Kirby Captain America issues anyway but I didn’t like it at all until after “Madbomb” ended. By then, I had read Origins of Marvel Comics and Son of Origins (which was advertised in Captain America #194), I had acquired a few back issues and reprints, and I understood the Kirby contribution to comics a little better. Since I was buying them, the other kids were reading my copies, and Captain America was the subject of much schoolyard debate. Most of it was negative. I was the only one actually paying for them and even I didn’t like them at first. My peers made fun of me for buying every issue of a comic book I didn’t like. We mocked the dialogue. My friend Ricky would read a few pages aloud, talking like a dullard, or lisping, and we would laugh like little demons. (Ricky would eventually accumulate a huge collection of Kirby Fantastic Four comics and most of the first Hulk series.) “Kill Derby” was the subject of much ridicule. We made fun of certain poses. We thought the monsters were weird. The plot was hard to follow. There was always something in Kirby’s Captain America to make fun of. After “Madbomb” ended, we weren’t making fun of Cap anymore. (Well, Ricky thought Kirby’s Red Skull was really stupidlooking.) There weren’t as many of us reading comics either, just a few stalwarts who would give the hobby a few more years. One guy liked the “Night People” storyline and another guy thought Agron was really cool. I was rather partial to the story with the Swine and Donna Maria. Then Arnim Zola was introduced and we were all pointing and laughing again! I didn’t read The Eternals or 2001 when they first appeared. (Years later, I picked up a few issues of The Eternals and found it very (above) Pencils from Machine Man #2. (next page) Devil Dinosaur #7 pencils, featuring one lovely brontosaurus. entertaining.) I did pick up a few issues of

Rich Buckler Interview Conducted by Jon B. Cooke, transcribed by John Morrow (Rich Buckler broke into the comics scene in a big way in the early ’70s with his work on The Avengers and other Marvel, DC and Warren titles. An admitted “chameleon,” Rich has worked in a number of distinct styles, including Jack Kirby’s. Though he has worked on several prominent titles during his career, he is probably most remembered as the creator of Deathlok for Marvel. This interview was conducted by phone in February 2000.)

RICH: Yeah, it knocked me out! (laughter) I wasn’t aware of any artist other than Jack Kirby who was that dynamic with the human figure, and could convey such drama and emotion. It grabbed me right away. I’m probably not the first to observe this. (laughter) TJKC: You obviously picked up on his style in paying homage to it when you were doing Fantastic Four to a degree, but especially when you were doing Thor. RICH: It was more like gratitude. I was so grateful for how much his work inspired me. It was as if I wanted to tell everybody, “Hey, look at this guy!” But sometimes people took it wrong, and thought that I was saying, “Hey, look at me, I can draw like this guy.” But it’s very difficult to get all the drawing distortions; you don’t think like he did. But I think I picked up on the emotion and the drama, and that’s what affected my work the most. I wanted to pay back, and say “thanks,” and also to be a fan; to pretend this isn’t comics work, it’s fanzine work. It was probably very immature of me to do that, (laughter) and not every editor went along with that. A lot of times the editors weren’t thrilled with it. They liked the idea that I was bringing back some excitement, and they missed the Kirby work at the time. It seemed like every time I was able to apply it, I was at a company where Kirby wasn’t. He was always five or ten steps ahead of me.

THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: When did you first see Kirby’s work? RICH BUCKLER: Probably Fantastic Four. We’re talking #20, or something in that area. TJKC: Was there anything special about it that attracted you?

TJKC: Do you think in retrospect it was artistically successful? Could somebody really pick up on the very idiosyncratic point of view Kirby has? RICH: I think I did it successfully, but I don’t think I’m the only one. If someone comes up to me and says, “You draw the best Jack Kirby take-off I’ve ever seen,” that could be a compliment, but it could also be taken the other way. What does that mean, to be the best imitator? I hope I captured a lot of what he was about, but of course you can’t really do anything that’s so close it’ll be mistaken for the real thing, unless you think like that man did, and he was a genius. While I consider myself any less so, I don’t have the output he had, and I don’t have the energy and dynamics to the extent that he did so. I had to work at it real hard. TJKC: When you were at Marvel in the mid-’70s working on Thor and Fantastic Four, in some ways it was like having Kirby there, when he wasn’t. RICH: Well, I wanted him to be there when he wasn’t. (laughter) So I know what you mean. But I wasn’t the only one imitating him; I was just probably the one most obvious about it.

(above) Jack Kirby pencils for the cover of Fantastic Four #174.

TJKC: Were you the first professional one to really imitate Jack? RICH: No. Dick Ayers was imitating him, because people wanted the dynamics to be there in the storytelling. I don’t think there was any format edict that was made, “Hey, everybody, you have to draw like Jack.” But Marie Severin worshiped him and wanted to draw like him. Don Heck tried to draw like him, at least from my observations. There were others that were his contemporaries that admired him and

so much fun. TJKC: Is that the first really overt pastiche you did? RICH: That got me in a lot of trouble with people, who went, “What’s the matter with him? He flipped out, he went backwards, he forgot how to draw.” But when you do that style, you do have to forget how to draw to an extent, to do the cartooniness. I think too many artists that really know how to draw well forget that. John Byrne knows how to draw well, and he hasn’t forgotten it. And George Pérez has gotten real good, and his draftsmanship is very good, but he hasn’t forgotten how to exaggerate. TJKC: There was a real transition when you did The Avengers right after #100, with an almost John Buscematype work. Then you did a Giant-Size Avengers with Nuklo that was a very Kirby-pastiche. RICH: That was another giant-size, and I just let loose. I had no editor looking over me saying, “Do this, but don’t do that.” I had Roy Thomas, who was like a guardian angel. He said, “Rich, do your thing. Some people say you’ve got too much Kirby influence, or that you swipe Kirby, or copy him, and it’s a bad thing. I like the Kirby stuff; do whatever you want.” So with those kind of bosses, how could you go wrong, unless you did something phenomenally stupid—which I tried not to. You’re on safe ground, as long as the excitement’s there; as long as it’s good comics. TJKC: So there was no edict that came down for you to draw like Kirby? RICH: No. It was my own crazy idea. I did it strictly to have fun and say, “Hey, Jack, thanks!”

(above) Rich’s splash page for Fantastic Four #150. Inks by Joe Sinnott.

TJKC: Do you recall Jack ever seeing that work or having comment on it? RICH: No. I think I spoke to his wife one time, and she said he took it as a compliment. People’d come up to them and say, “Hey, Buckler’s copying you.” Well, hello! Like I’m the first person who ever copied Kirby? (laughter) I got a lot of attention because I was being the most overt about it, the most blatant. TJKC: Were the comments you received 50/50 positive/ negative? RICH: No, most people were supportive. Most of them loved it. People who tended to get bugged by it were people in the business. I think that just had to do with the nonsense that creeps in with egos and what have you.

wanted to draw like him, and incorporated some of those dynamics. I think George Tuska worked in the Simon & Kirby studio, and at times did work that was trying to pick up on that style. TJKC: But with the approach of storytelling, Marie certainly picked up aspects of it. Actually, all the people who came in after Kirby picked up on it in one way or another. RICH: Marie had her own distinctive style, but she had the same problem I had; she had to work at it really hard. (laughter) After at least ten years of drawing, my draftsmanship got very good. That’s an accomplishment in itself, but anybody can do that with a lot of practice. But to go back to Jack Kirby, you have to draw “badly”; actually, what happens is, you learn realism, and you get to where you can draw so well, you don’t want to exaggerate. Because of the style Jack Kirby was always evolving, it was always exaggerated. It had such cartooniness that allowed for that exaggeration. But when you got really realistic, it didn’t quite work.

TJKC: Do you think part of that could’ve been that you had the technique and facility to expand yourself as an artist unto yourself, and that you were throwing yourself backwards? RICH: There was a period there were it was actually taboo, literally, to swipe. It was supposedly something negative. You weren’t supposed to imitate; you certainly weren’t supposed to copy anything. I think the ones who were the most verbal about criticizing this were the ones most guilty, if they were artists. If they were editors, they were just being hypocrites, because everybody that’s a comic artist has swiped, and is probably still swiping; from photographs, or from other people’s work. Swiping was supposedly a negative thing, and it went around to editors: “This one swipes, don’t give him work.” It got real mean, and it’s ridiculous. The masters from the Renaissance; that’s how they learned. And there’s a tradition of it in comics, and we’re talking commercial art it; it’s not high art. But they took it so serious, it developed into almost a political thing: “Don’t use this guy, he swipes.”

TJKC: I think the first instance where I really noticed it in your work was Giant-Size Super Stars #1. RICH: On that book, they gave me a plot. It looked pretty skimpy, but they said I could do a giant-size. So I sort of really made up the story from a very brief outline, and I drew the entire thing over the weekend. (laughter) I decided I’m going to be a superman, and I’m going to go nuts, and pull out all my Jack Kirby stuff, and that’s what I did. It was 39

Where Have All The Villains Gone? Remembering Kirby’s return to Marvel in the ’70s, by Shane Foley nowing what we do now about Kirby’s frustrations with the comics industry in the ‘70s, his creativity and output in his postFourth World work is quite remarkable. But as a late teens fan in the mid-’70s, I knew nothing of this and had only the books themselves to judge by. When Kirby’s return to Marvel was announced in Oct. ’75 (cover date—which, in Australia, was the date we bought the books), I was overjoyed. But for me, it took a further 12 months after he arrived in Captain America #193 before the King was really back. In 1975, at the end of his DC run, Kirby seemed to be biding his time. Why all the featureless opponents, I used to think? Kirby villains used to be fabulous! Every issue seemed to have OMAC or Manhunter up against some sort of blob. OMAC himself was great. Manhunter had tons of Kirby potential. The story ideas still had the usual Kirby out-of-this-world flair. But the villains always looked like monsters, or fat gangsters, or—blobs. Look at Sandman #4. Ugh! (Atlas I never saw. First issues of any series were rare in Australia then.) And where were the star’s great supporting cast? His writing was looser than ever. And to make it worse, his art also seemed looser and clunkier than before (although when Mike Royer returned for Kirby’s last few DC issues, the art was better by leaps and bounds. Maybe that looser look of Kirby’s art wasn’t his fault at all—never did like Berry much.) Kamandi was the exception. He still read well—despite light-on scripting and art under Berry—probably because of the miles of untapped potential Kirby had invested into it in its early issues. Unfortunately, the Kirby who returned to Marvel seemed to be the same Kirby who worked for DC in 1975. Where were the great Kirby villains? Or where was the interesting Kirby supporting cast? Captain America strung together a number of movie themes, and fought bland revolutionaries and monsters. The Eternals was great, with Ikaris and the Celestials, etc. and the writing seemed strong and yes, the supporting cast was fine. But who were the main Earth-bound foes? The Deviants, who mostly looked like—featureless blobs. Again! (Years later, the Deviants seem perfect, but at the time, their appearance, which is what I was disappointed with, seemed like yet more in an endless row of featureless foes.) Like OMAC and Manhunter, the stars of the book were great, but there were no villains that grabbed me. (The Celestials, whether villains or supporting cast, were, in a sense, “featureless,” too. None of them is another Galactus.) 2001 was unique, but it also started with forgettable “blobs.” (Barak was okay, though.) At least Mike Royer was back on most books and the art looked better. Twelve months after Kirby returned to

Marvel, his Black Panther arrived. Issue #1 promised well (for those who weren’t in love with the abandoned Don McGregor approach, that is). Mr. Little was typical ’70s Kirby, but at least Zanda looked okay. And there on page 2 was a great looking Kirby armored assassin. But he was soon gone. Instead, by the end of the issue we faced Hatch-22! Again, a fine idea (though Kirby seemed bogged down in sci-fi futuristic stuff, no matter what strip he did), but he looked like a monster-comefeatureless... thing (not quite a blob this time). Oh, well. Next month, the Reject arrived in The Eternals. He looked good and held lots of

The Reject and Karkas, from Eternals #12, page 6.

Cover pencils to Ghost Rider #23.

Cover pencils to Marvel Two-In-One Annual #1.

Avengers #154 cover. We think this one looks way cooler without the dialogue.

Cover pencils to Invaders #12.

A Failure To Communicate: Part 6 by Mike Gartland Marvel on a regular basis. In my opinion, once Lee realized that Kirby needed little or no prompting to get a good saleable story out of him, he gave Jack the leeway (no pun intended) to develop characters and concepts that an otherwise full script would have restrained. When Lee also realized that he could adapt that type of collaboration with

The Best Laid (Out) Plans...

ess is More.” Never thought about it, really; just another catchy phrase used by advertising people to try and convince you to buy something—that you were getting something special. What could it mean? Well, I guess it could mean something like concentrated fabric softener, or if a seller was trying to convince a buyer that their “new reduced-size” product was just as good as the previous size (except the price remained the same, or was increased, of course). But it wasn’t until I began to research the layout work that Jack Kirby did for Marvel in the Sixties that I realized what it also could mean. Personnel-wise, Marvel was in a state of flux by the mid-Sixties. Due to the tremendous increase in popularity of the new Marvel line, Stan Lee was in constant search for creative people to help lessen the load; he was also seeking inroads to release new titles while under distribution restrictions. By 1965 books that originally showcased one super-hero found themselves sharing with another; or were dropped totally in favor of a new series. Storylines began to change to a multi-issue, serialistic format. New artists were introduced; Jack’s margin notes from Avengers #14; layouts by Kirby, pencils by Heck, inks by Chic Stone. Jack was brought back some stayed, others didn’t, or stayed but in a in to set the tone and direction for the series, even though he stopped being the regular penciler on it with #8. different capacity, such as inking, coloring, or production. The artists who were to pencil others, and get better stories from them (and free himself from writing these books had to be indoctrinated to the “Marvel method” of story scripts), the “Marvel method” was born. production. Due to the pressing deadlines, and foreseeing that some Chronologically, the precursor of Jack doing layouts might have might have problems conforming in so limited a time, Lee decided been as early as 1963. Up until that time, most of the new super-hero that the best course to take would be for someone to work with these line was pure Kirby/Lee, but by the cover date of March 1963, there is artists who could help them learn to work “Marvel method.” Well, only one book, Fantastic Four, with Kirby art produced. On that month, who better than the one who unknowingly created it, Jack Kirby? all the other titles drawn by Kirby up until then are handed over to To digress for a moment, it is my opinion that the “Marvel method” the other resident artists. The Hulk went to Ditko, Strange Tales went to was not so much a creation as it was an advantageous development. Ayers (which made sense since he was probably even more experienced Lee states in a 1977 interview that it came about in the Sixties, but in at drawing Torch stories than Kirby). Journey Into Mystery tried out a more recent interview with Roy Thomas in Alter Ego, Roy convinces with Al Hartley (but settled better with Joe Sinnott), and Don Heck Lee that it must have occurred earlier, during the pre-hero monster jumped in with both feet, premiering his super-hero drawing abilities era. This makes more sense as it coincides with the return of Kirby to with Ant-Man in Astonish and a new feature called Iron Man in

“L

Original art from X-Men #12 showing Jack’s margin notes and layouts, with Toth pencils and Colletta inks.

Suspense (actually, Iron Man was to premiere earlier, but that’s another story). This was the first attempt to have others continue the Kirby/Lee technique, but many of the stories showed the lack of something (or someone). Of course while this was going on, Jack was not idle; he was behind the scenes drawing and developing, in conjunction with Stan, what would become The Avengers, The X-Men, Sgt. Fury, FF Annual #1 and Strange Tales Annual #2. Up front he continued to draw the monthly FF adventures, a Thor, Iron Man, Ant-Man, or Torch story here and there, and the cover art for almost the complete line. When Sgt. Fury, The Avengers, and The X-Men premiere, the process begins to repeat itself. Kirby draws approximately the first year of stories and then another artist comes in to continue; but unlike the earlier non-

Kirby period, Jack doesn’t leave entirely. We now finally come to 1965; there are more titles to draw than ever before, and unlike two years previous, Stan cannot resort to his resident artists to fill in because they already have their hands full drawing books. Enter the freelancers; some were old friends of Stan from the Timely/Atlas days, some were from competitor companies, some were talented newcomers; but none were experienced at drawing stories “Marvel method.” It is during this time and for this reason that Jack is persuaded to do layouts to help these “new” artists. Jack is first credited with layouts in Avengers #14 (cover-dated March 1965), but of course this should not infer that Jack didn’t influence plots or artwork for other artists prior to this. There is an excellent article in the Jack Kirby Quarterly by Nigel Kitching which covers Kirby contributing art “help” on stories where his name doesn’t appear, like Avengers #9-13. On copies of the original art to Avengers #14 there is evidence of Jack’s border notes similar to the type we covered on the Journey into Mystery #111 article in TJKC #26, but this particular issue seemed to have many hands in it; Lee, Ivey, Heck, Stone, et. al. Jack also lays out the stories to Avengers #15 and #16, by which time his border notes become much more expansive and descriptive. These

three issues appear to be Jack’s “dry run” at leaving pencil and story layouts for other artists to follow. By May/June 1965 Jack has finished with layouts on The Avengers and with penciling on The X-Men (issue #11 was his last as artist), but he has picked up “The Hulk” in Tales to Astonish (#68). Up until that time, Steve Ditko was drawing and co-plotting the stories. Mark Evanier related to me that it was Ditko who originally pitched the idea of giving The Hulk a series to Lee; perhaps it was Lee who suggested putting The Hulk in the Goblin story in Spider-Man #14 (cover-dated July 1964) that alerted Ditko that the character was being shuffled around looking for a home. Ditko therefore made the suggestion which led to The Hulk series beginning in Astonish #60 (cover-dated October 1964, after Lee and Dick Ayers indoctrinated Astonish readers to The Hulk in Astonish #59). After leaving the Hulk series, the very next month in Spider-Man, Ditko begins receiving a (long-delayed) co-plotting credit (he doesn’t receive co-plotting credit on “Dr. Strange” until two months later); coincidence? Ditko’s problems with Marvel were growing—but back to Jack. Between June and August 1965, Jack co-plots and draws the Hulk stories for Astonish #68-70 and begins doing layouts—similar to the Avengers stories—for The X-Men; he also adds plot and pencils to help Stan launch the new “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” series in Strange Tales. With The X-Men, Jack leaves layouts and border notes for Alex Toth, in what may have been his “try-out” issue. This is not to say that Toth was new to the field; he was an accomplished draftsman long before this, but working “Marvel method” may not have been his cup of tea. He leaves after only one issue, a shame really. By the way, this particular issue (X-Men #12) is of interest not only for the obvious introduction of The Juggernaut; on the originals Kirby layed-out, The Juggernaut was originally intended to look different, with a flat helmet (à la the Atlas Black Knight), a waist apron similar to Galactus’, and spikes on the breastplate. Obviously someone thought him a little too lethal (or ridiculous) looking and Margin notes from Avengers #16. asked for changes. Also it is my opinion Jack’s note below show the involvement he had in helping determine the personalities and motivations of the characters. that in keeping with the ‘Origin of Professor X’ storyline, Jack intended for Cain Marko (The Juggernaut) to be the cause of Professor X becoming crippled. Although I’ve yet to verify this through the original art, the powerful images on pages 12 and 13 seem to confirm this, and the fact that Jack probably came up with the name Cain Marko (“the mark of Cain”) would fit into the brother vs. brother plot. Stan almost always used alliterative names on characters he was writing. Stan of course would have had to change the “Marko cripples Professor X” plot since he knew he had previously established this in an earlier issue of X-Men (#9) using the villain Lucifer. In reviewing the border notes to the originals from X-Men #9 it is apparent that the crippling of Xavier at Lucifer’s hands was not part of the original plot; there are no border notes by Jack pertaining to the incident, and the notes in the borders by Lee pertaining to it are written over erased Kirby 56