The Commonwealth August/September 2021 by The Commonwealth Club of California

DAISY KHAN | JEN GUNTER & SAMANTHA BEE | JUNETEENTH | NICK CHO

Commonwealth The

THE MAGAZINE OF THE COMMONWEALTH CLUB OF CALIFORNIA

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

BLACK SMOKE Adrian Miller on African Americans & the United States of Barbecue

$5.00; free for members | commonwealthclub.org

JANUARY 29 - FEBRUARY 9, 2022 • Immerse yourself in the beautiful landscapes of Tanzania with our naturalist guides and featured guest speaker, Lucy Cooke. • Search for wildlife - lion, elephant, cheetah, giraffe and rhino in the Serengeti. • Discover Ngorongoro Crater, home to rhinoceros, hippo, flamingo, ostrich and black-maned lion. • Retreat each night to your tented camps offering superior comfort, and enjoy a 2-night stay at the award-winning Gibbs Farm. • Join an optional post-trip gorilla trek in Rwanda.

GUEST SPEAKER LUCY COOKE

Lucy Cooke is National Geographic explorer, award-winning documentary presenter and producer, New York Times best-selling author and TED speaker with a Masters in zoology from New College, Oxford where she studied evolution and animal behavior under Richard Dawkins. Lucy has produced and presented a number of popular primetime series for National Geographic Wild, Animal Planet, PBS and the BBC. Her latest book, The Truth About Animals was short-listed for the prestigious Royal Society prize and has been translated into 18 languages.

Brochure at commonwealthclub.org/travel | 415.597.6720 | travel@commonwealthclub.org CST: 2096889-40

Commonwealth The

FEATURES 10 Black Smoke In the first in-person program since the pandemic struck, Adrian Miller talks with Justin Phillips about African Americans and the art of the barbecue. 20 The Myths of Menopause Dr. Jen Gunter talks with Samantha Bee about menopause, myths and misinformation. 30 American Muslims Daisy Khan and Sara Abbasi discuss Islamophobia, women’s rights and more.

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021 VOL. 115, NO. 4

“A lot of people don’t really pay attention until you get to the end result of policy, but barbecue people come in with their own preconceived notions of what it is and how to do it right, so part of the fun is arguing about barbecue. A lot of people really don’t know the true history of barbecue, but they are dead set on what they think it is.” —ADRIAN MILLER

Your Korean Dad Nick Cho reveals the pros and cons of TikTok parenting and human connections over social media. On Juneteenth Annette Gordon-Reed talks with LaDoris Cordell about the history and legacy of Juneteenth.

ON THE COVER: Black Smoke author Adrian Miller is a certified barbecue judge as well as a chronicler of African Americans and the history of barbecue. (Photo by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto.)

DEPARTMENTS 4 Editor’s Desk By John Zipperer 5 The Commons News of the Club; plus upcoming program highlights. 46 InSight Dr. Gloria Duffy on Japanese American internment. 47 Program Info

ON THIS PAGE: The San Francisco Chronicle’s Justin Phillips (left) talks with author Adrian Miller before the Club’s first live audience in more than a year. (Photo by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto.) AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

Commonwealth The

August/September 2021 Volume 115, Number 4

EDITOR’S DESK

BUSINESS OFFICES

The Commonwealth, 110 The Embarcadero, San Francisco, CA 94105 feedback@commonwealthclub.org

VICE PRESIDENT, MEDIA & EDITORIAL

John Zipperer

HEARST EDITORIAL FELLOW

Corey Rose

PHOTOGRAPHERS: Spencer Campbell, Sarah Gonzalez, John Zipperer. ADVERTISING INFORMATION John Zipperer, Vice President of Media & Editorial, (415) 597-6715, jzipperer@commonwealthclub.org The Commonwealth (ISSN 0010-3349) is published bimonthly (6 times a year) by The Commonwealth Club of California, 110 The Embarcadero, San Francisco, CA 94105. Periodicals postage paid at San Francisco, CA. Subscription rate $34 per year included in annual membership dues. Copyright © 2021 The Commonwealth Club of California. POSTMASTER: Send address changes to The Commonwealth, The Commonwealth Club of California, 110 The Embarcadero, San Francisco, CA 94105; (415) 597-6700; feedback@commonwealthclub.org EDITORIAL TRANSCRIPT POLICY The Commonwealth magazine covers a range of programs in each issue. Program transcripts and question-and-answer sessions are routinely condensed due to space limitations. Hear full-length recordings online at commonwealthclub. org/watch-listen, or via our free podcasts on Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts or Spotify; watch videos at youtube.com/ commonwealthclub. Published digitally via Issuu.com.

FOLLOW US ONLINE facebook.com/thecommonwealthclub twitter.com/cwclub youtube.com/commonwealthclub commonwealthclub.org instagram.com/cwclub

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Photo by John Zipperer

While You Weren’t Looking

hen we welcomed Club members back to our waterfront headquarters building in June and July, part of the schedule of events took place on our rooftop Kaiser Permanente Terrace. The terrace was also the location of our barbecue feast from Horn Barbecue following the late-June “Black Smoke” program (this issue’s cover story). At the end of July, attendees of a program on QTAPI Pride enjoyed a pre-program rooftop lunch from What the Cluck Chicken and Thai (an admittedly fowl-mouthed name for a restaurant). I’ve always enjoyed bringing members, guests and speakers up to the roof. They almost immediately are drawn to the front of the building, with its wide view of the bay, Bay Bridge, Ferry Building, The Embarcadero and more. Even Olympic athletes and award-winning actors have taken in the view and then quickly pulled out their smartphones to take some selfies of themselves against the bay background. Perhaps best of all, the view is gorgeous during the day and during the evening, when the bridge is all lit up. Soon you’ll be able to appreciate looking at some sculptures on the terrace; it’s part of a sculpture exhibit (our first!) in collaboration with the Pacific Rim Sculptors. Whatever draws you to the building these days, I do suggest trying to make the rooftop part of your visit. The terrace is a nice place to relax, have a conversation, enjoy the bay view or turn the other direction and enjoy the city view—and don’t pass that up. Our terrace was designed to feature a vibrant garden, and during the past year, it has really blossomed into a stunning oasis amid the big city. Carefully tended by Alex Hernandez, our vice president of facilities and private events, the plants are bigger and more beautiful than when you last saw them. The plant life on the roof have used these past 15–16 months to make themselves—and the rooftop garden—even more wonderful. JO H N Z IPPER ER VI C E PRESI DENT O F MEDI A & ED I T O RI AL

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TALK OF THE CLUB Gathering Together Again Safely

he Club’s headquarters at 110 The Embarcadero is once again hosting speakers, audiences, social gatherings and private events. Our recent surveys of members told us that many of you are eager to see the Club again and talk with others, and to do it all safely. To ensure the best of both worlds—inperson events and public health—the Club has established its safety protocols for all who visit our building. • We will be following best practices laid out by the CDC and state and local guidelines. • All guests, staff and volunteers must be vaccinated and show proof of vaccination. • Masks are required inside the building. • Elevators are limited to a maximum of four people at a time. • Please depart promptly at the end of your program, to allow our staff to clean and reset the rooms. Our LEED Gold-certified building is designed to cool with outside air, using digitally controlled moveable windows and large ceiling fans. We are deploying additional HEPA filters inside to scrub the air. This is all in addition to increased cleaning of surfaces throughout the building. Please note that as local and state public health guidelines continue to evolve, The Commonwealth Club of California may adjust guidelines as such as relaxing mask usage as appropriate. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. We look forward to seeing you soon.

Creating Citizens

eep an eye out for the colorful new logos and designs associated with Creating Citizens, the Club’s education initiative (see samples above). They will be visible at programs, on a website, in social media and on other outreach materials as the Club’s education division ramps up its program efforts, which include its “Youth Talks” programs featuring the voices of students discussing important issues, student involvement in the California Book Awards, and more. The education department was established

with the generous support of the Koret Foundation.

100,000 and Growing

n late July, The Commonwealth Club reached a milestone when our YouTube channel attracted its 100,000th subscriber. The channel, which features more than 1,300 videos on a very wide range of topics, has grown in popularity as the Club has continued to produce hundreds of new programs even during a pandemic that shut down public events. Viewers tune in to our programs—live or on-demand—from across the Bay Area and around the world. July also saw our YouTube channel achieve a second milestone: the Club program “Malcolm Nance: The Plot to Betray America” became our first video to reach 1 million viewers. Close on its heels and likely to reach the 1 million marker soon is “Andrea Bernstein: The Trumps, the Kushners and American Greed.” If you are not yet subscribed to this free service, go to youtube.com/commonwealthclub.

Our Civic Duty

n September 14, the Club’s San Francisco headquarters at 110 The Embarcadero will once again serve as a polling place for the special gubernatorial recall election. Locals will be able to vote in-person in our Rembe Rock Auditorium on the first floor. But even if you live outside of this district, you can stop in and drop off your ballot. Your vote counts. Don’t forget to cast it.

Photo by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto

Adrian Miller Named Denver All-star

e calls himself a “soul food scholar,” but Denver newspaper Westword recently added to Adrian Miller’s titles by naming him a Denver All-Star. While noting the Black Smoke author and James Beard Award-winner’s rise to national prominence as well as his recent Commonwealth Club appearance, Westword writes, “Miller has deep roots in Denver and remains a local culinary leader . . . even if we may need to wait in line the next time we want to see him.” Turn to page 10 to read an in-depth conversation with this all-star. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

The Commons

LEADERSHIP OF THE COMMONWEALTH CLUB TALK OF THE CLUB CLUB OFFICERS Board Chair Evelyn Dilsaver Vice Chair Martha Ryan Secretary Dr. Jaleh Daie Treasurer John R. Farmer President & CEO Dr. Gloria C. Duffy BOARD OF GOVERNORS Robert E. Adams Willie Adams John F. Allen Scott Anderson Dan Ashley Dr. Mary G. F. Bitterman John L. Boland Charles M. Collins Kevin Collins Mary B. Cranston Susie Cranston Dr. Kerry P. Curtis Dorian Daley James Driscoll Joseph I. Epstein Jeffrey A. Farber Dr. Carol A. Fleming Leslie Saul Garvin Hon. James C. Hormel Mary Huss Lata Krishnan John Leckrone Dr. Mary Marcy Lenny Mendonca Michelle Meow Anna W.M. Mok DJ Patil Donald J. Pierce Bruce Raabe Skip Rhodes Bill Ring George M. Scalise Charlotte Mailliard Shultz Todd Silvia George D. Smith Jr. David Spencer James Strother Hon. Tad Taube

Marcel TenBerge Charles Travers Don Wen Dr. Colleen B. Wilcox Brenda Wright Mark Zitter PAST BOARD CHAIRS AND PRESIDENTS * Past Chair ** Past President Dr. Mary G. F. Bitterman* J. Dennis Bonney** Maryles Casto* Hon. Ming Chin** Mary B. Cranston* Joseph I. Epstein** John Farmer* Dr. Joseph R. Fink** Rose Guilbault* Claude B. Hutchison Jr.** Anna W.M. Mok* Richard Otter** Joseph Perrelli** Toni Rembe** Victor J. Revenko** Skip Rhodes** Renée Rubin** Richard Rubin* Connie Shapiro** Nelson Weller** Judith Wilbur** Dennis Wu** ADVISORY BOARD Karin Helene Bauer Hon. William Bradley Dennise M. Carter Steven Falk Amy Gershoni Jacquelyn Hadley Heather Kitchen Amy McCombs Don J. McGrath Hon. William J. Perry Hon. Barbara Pivnicka Hon. Richard Pivnicka Nancy Thompson

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2021 California Book Award Winners

he Commonwealth Club of for The Black Kids, set in the Los Angeles of California has announced the winners 1992 but powerfully timely today. The poetry of the 90th annual California Book gold medal went to Nathalie Khankan for Awards. The awards ceremony to recognize her movingly personal and incisively political the winners will be held on August 16 at 6 Quiet Orient Riot. Richard and Jesse Amble p.m. PDT. In-person and virtual tickets are White won the Californiana award for California Exposures; Envisioning Myth and available at commonwealthclub.org. “The California Book Awards jury is History, whose text and photography create an proud to announce our 2021 medalists,” indelible portrait of the Golden State. Finally, said Peter Fish, chair of the awards. “This the contribution to publishing award was year marks our 90th anniversary: for nine won by Sunbelt Publications for Mike Wells’ decades we’ve honored the enormous and Marie Simovich’s A Natural History of the creativity and energy of California writers Anza-Borrego Region, a scholarly yet inviting and publishers. It seems especially fitting guide to one of California’s most beautiful and that in this anniversary year we’re giving biologically diverse landscapes.” Since 1931, the California Book Awards medals to a spectacularly innovative and have honored the exceptional literary merit diverse group of books and authors. of California writers and The fiction our gold medal GOLD MEDALS went to Daniel Mason’s FICTION: A Registry of My publishers. Each year a select spellbinding collection of stories Passage Upon the Earth, Daniel jury considers hundreds of A Registry of My Passage Upon Mason, Little, Brown and books from around the state in search of the very best in the Earth; the silver medal Company FIRST FICTION: How Much of went to Charles Yu’s subversive, These Hills Is Gold, C Pam Zhang, literary achievement.  Eligible books must be written while irresistibly entertaining Interior Riverhead Books Chinatown. The winner of NONFICTION: South to Freedom: the author is a resident in the first fiction gold medal Runaway Slaves to Mexico and California, and they must is C Pam Zhang’s haunting the Road to the Civil War, Alice L. be published during the year Baumgartner, Basic Books evocation of an alluring and JUVENILE: Efrén Divided, Ernesto under consideration. The Club thanks the estate treacherous American West, Cisneros, Quill Tree Books, How Much of These Hills Is Gold. an imprint of HarperCollins of Martha Cox for providing the funds for the prizes. And Alice L. Baumgartner won the Publishers non-fiction gold medal for her YOUNG ADULT: Private Lessons, we are grateful to Roy and Cynthia Salaysay, Candlewick Betsy Eisenhardt, without deeply researched, compellingly Press written South to Freedom: P O E T R Y : Q u i e t O r i e n t whom the selection process Runaway Slaves to Mexico and R i o t ,   N a t h a l i e K h a n k a n , would have been difficult or impossible during this the Road to the Civil War. The Omnidawn California landmark 90th year of the silver medal for non-fiction CALIFORNIANA: Exposures: Envisioning Myth went to Conor Dougherty’s and History, Richard White, with California Book Awards. California Book Awards skillfully reported and written photos by Jesse Amble White, have honored the writers who Golden Gates: The Housing Crisis W.W. Norton & Company and a Reckoning for the American CONTRIBUTION TO PUBLISHING: have come to define California A Natural History of the Anzato the world. Among them Dream. Borrego Region, Marie Simovich The juvenile gold medal was and Mike Wells, Sunbelt are John Steinbeck, Wallace Stegner, MFK Fisher, Thom awarded to Ernesto Cisneros for Publications Gunn, Richard Rodriquez, Efrén Divided, a deeply moving Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Joan tale of families torn apart by U.S. SILVER MEDALS FICTION: Interior Chinatown, immigration policy. Cynthia Charles Yu, Pantheon/Vintage Didion, Ishmael Reed, and Salaysay received the young NONFICTION: Golden Gates: The Amy Tan. Recent award adult gold medal for Private Housing Crisis and a Reckoning winners include Hector Tobar, Lessons, her elegant, harrowing for the American Dream, Conor Viet Thanh Nguyen, Susan Orlean, Rachel Kushner, portrait of musical ambition Dougherty, Penguin Press YOUNG ADULT: The Black and exploitation. The young Kids, Christina Hammonds Rachel Khong, Tommy adult silver medal was awarded Reed, Simon & Schuster Books Orange, Morgan Parker and Steph Cha. to Christina Hammonds Reed for Young Readers

Leave Your Legacy Make a lasting impact through a planned gift. Gifts Through Wills • Charitable Trusts • Gift Annuities • IRA / Retirement Plan Designation

To learn more about how to leave a legacy gift to The Commonwealth Club please contact AUGUST/SEPTEMBER Kimberly Maas at kmaas@commonwealthclub.org or (415) 597-6726. 2021 7

The Commons

UPCOMING PROGRAM HIGHLIGHTS LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 3 / 12:00 PM PDT DAVID POGUE AND WEI-TAI KWOK: HOW TO PREPARE FOR CLIMATE CHANGE LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 3 / 6:00 PM PDT COURTNEY MARTIN: LEARNING IN PUBLIC LIVE STREAM

WED, AUG 4 / 12:00 PM PDT TIM HIGGINS: TESLA, ELON MUSK, AND THE BET OF THE CENTURY LIVE STREAM

WED, AUG 4 / 12:30 PM PDT HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE MEMBER ZOE LOFGREN: A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE JANUARY 6 ATTACK LIVE STREAM

LIVE STREAM

THU, AUG 5 / 6:00 PM PDT PIXAR CO-FOUNDER ALVY RAY SMITH: THE HISTORY OF THE PIXEL LIVE STREAM

MON, AUG 9 / 3:00 PM PDT CNN’S PETER BERGEN: THE RISE, FALL AND IMPACT OF OSAMA BIN LADEN LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 10 / 12:00 PM PDT ALEXANDER VINDMAN: HERE, RIGHT MATTERS LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 10 / 3:00 PM PDT JOSH MITCHELL: INSIDE THE STUDENT LOAN DEBT TRAP LIVE STREAM

WED, AUG 4 / 4:00 PM PDT A CONVERSATION WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL PEACE CORPS ASSOCIATION

TUE, AUG 10 / 5:00 PM PDT THE CULT OF WE: THE WEWORK STORY

LIVE STREAM

THU, AUG 12 / 12:00 PM PDT DR. PAULA STONE WILLIAMS: AS A WOMAN

LIVE STREAM

MON, AUG 16 / 6:00 PM PDT 90TH ANNUAL CALIFORNIA BOOK AWARDS

LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 17 / 3:00 PM PDT SPENCER ACKERMAN: THE 9/11 ERA AND THE DESTABILIZING OF AMERICA

LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 17 / 6:00 PM PDT A CONVERSATION WITH CONGRESSWOMAN LIZ CHENEY

WED, AUG 4 / 6:00 PM PDT SHEERA FRENKEL AND CECILIA KANG: INSIDE FACEBOOK’S BATTLE FOR DOMINATION THU, AUG 5 / 9:30 AM PDT VIOLENCE AGAINST THE AAPI COMMUNITY AND RISING ABOVE THE HATE THU, AUG 5 / 12:00 PM PDT INDIA, COVID-19 AND THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY THU, AUG 5 / 3:00 PM PDT JEFFREY KLUGER: HOLDOUT

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LIVE STREAM

SAN FRANCISCO • IN-PERSON & LIVE STREAM

LIVE STREAM

SAN FRANCISCO • IN-PERSON & LIVE STREAM

LIVE STREAM

WED, AUG 18 / 12:00 PM PDT JIMMY CARTER’S PRESIDENTIAL LEGACY: A CONVERSATION WITH PULITZER PRIZE WINNING HISTORIAN KAI BIRD LIVE STREAM

WED, AUG 18 / 3:00 PM PDT NUDGE WITH RICHARD THALER SAN FRANCISCO • IN-PERSON & LIVE STREAM

MON, AUG 23 / 6:00 PM PDT THE NEWSOM RECALL: A WEEK TO WEEK POLITICAL ROUNDTABLE SPECIAL LIVE STREAM

TUE, AUG 24 / 6:00 PM PDT PARADISE: INSIDE CALIFORNIA’S DEADLIEST WILDFIRE LIVE STREAM

WED, AUG 25 / 6:00 PM PDT CHOOSE POSSIBILITY WITH SUKHINDER SINGH CASSIDY LIVE STREAM

THU, AUG 26 / 10:00 AM PDT BRIGHT GALAXIES, DARK MATTER, AND BEYOND LIVE STREAM

THU, AUG 26 / 3:00 PM PDT ENGAGING AND EMPOWERING RETURNED PEACE CORPS WOMEN LIVE STREAM

MON, AUG 30 / 9:30 AM PDT BRITNEY SPEARS AND THE CONSERVATORSHIP CON LIVE STREAM

MON, AUG 30 / 12:00 PM PDT KEVIN ADLER AND DR. GLORIA DUFFY: STEPS EVERYONE CAN TAKE TO END HOMELESSNESS

LIVE STREAM

MON, AUG 30 / 5:00 PM PDT U.C. BERKELEY LAW DEAN ERWIN CHEMERINSKY: THE SUPREME COURT AND RACIST POLICING LIVE STREAM

WED, SEP 1 / 10:00 AM PDT WHEN BAD THINKING HAPPENS TO GOOD PEOPLE

LIZ CHENEY COURTNEY MARTIN DAVID POGUE & WEI-TAI KWOK NEWSOM RECALL ROUNDTABLE PETER BERGEN PAULA STONE WILLIAMS TIM HIGGINS PEACE CORPS SHEERA FRENKEL & CECILIA KANG ANTI-AAPI VIOLENCE MILDRED HARNACK ERWIN CHEMERINSKY & MUCH MORE

SAN FRANCISCO • IN-PERSON & LIVE STREAM

TUE, SEP 7 / 3:00 PM PDT MILDRED HARNACK: AMERICAN GRAD STUDENT/BERLIN RESISTANCE LEADER LIVE STREAM

WED, SEP 8 / 3:00 PM PDT FEAR OF A BLACK UNIVERSE LIVE STREAM

TUE, SEP 14 / 10:00 AM PDT THE LASTING IMPACT OF TINY HABITS. NO WILLPOWER NEEDED! LIVE STREAM

THU, SEP 16 / 2:00 PM PDT WHICH COMES FIRST, OVEREATING OR OBESITY? CARBOHYDRATES, INSULIN AND METABOLIC HEALTH LIVE STREAM

TUE, SEP 21 / 6:00 PM PDT MARY ROACH’S FUZZ: WHEN NATURE BREAKS THE LAW

SAN FRANCISCO • IN-PERSON & LIVE STREAM

WED, SEP 22 / 6:00 PM PDT A NEW ERA OF EXPERIENTIAL MEDICINE: FROM VIDEO GAMES TO PSYCHEDELICS LIVE STREAM

TUE, SEP 28 / 9:00 AM PDT

COVID-19 AND YOUTH MENTAL HEALTH: MOVING FORWARD POST-COVID

LIVE STREAM

WED, SEP 29 / 10:00 AM PDT OF FEAR AND STRANGERS: A HISTORY OF XENOPHOBIA LIVE STREAM

WED, OCT 6 / 10:00 AM PDT AFTER ONE HUNDRED WINTERS: AMERICA’S STOLEN LANDS LIVE STREAM

THU, OCT 7 / 10:00 AM PDT OF SOUND MIND: HOW OUR BRAIN CONSTRUCTS A MEANINGFUL SONIC WORLD

Note: Online-only programs are labeled “Live Stream”; hybrid programs, with online and inperson options, are listed as live stream and the city where the event will take place; in-person only programs are listed with only the city name.

New programs are added to The Commonwealth Club’s schedule every day. For the full list, event details, and to buy tickets, subscribe to our weekly email newsletter or visit: commonwealthclub.org/events AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

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Top: Justin Phillips (left) interviews Adrian Miller on stage at the Club. Below: Scenes from the after-program feast. (Photos by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto.)

BLACK SMOKE

African Americans and the United States of Barbecue FOR THE FIRST IN-PERSON CLUB

program since the pandemic struck, we heard about the African American roots and craft of barbecue in America. From the June 28, 2021, program “Black Smoke: African Americans and the United States of Barbecue,” part of our Food Lit series, underwritten by the Bernard Osher Foundation ADRIAN MILLER, Writer; Certified Barbecue Judge; Attorney; Author, Black Smoke: African Americans and the United States of Barbecue In Conversation with JUSTIN PHILLIPS, Columnist, San Francisco Chronicle

JUSTIN PHILLIPS: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to today’s program with Inforum and The Commonwealth Club. This is the first in-studio audience in 15 months. Today, I’m honored to be in conversation with food writer, James Beard Award winner, attorney and certified barbecue judge, Adrian Miller. In honor of the Fourth of July, we’re here to explore an inherently American tradition, southern barbecue. The history of barbecue is a smoke-filled story of Black perseverance, culinary innovation and entrepreneurship. It’s also, like many things, a misunderstood story. We are here to learn about the real history of barbecue in America and the critical role that African Americans have played in that story. Now, let’s rock and roll. Before you became Adrian Miller as the food world knows you, you were in the world of politics, AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

doing work with the Clinton administration? Am I right? ADRIAN MILLER: Yes. PHILLIPS: So I wanted to ask which is harder, being in a room where you have to develop policies that affect millions of people, or telling one person the history of barbecue? MILLER: Oh, man. I think it’s telling one person the history of barbecue. PHILLIPS: Why is that? MILLER: A lot of people don’t really pay attention until you get to the end result of policy, but barbecue people come in with their own preconceived notions of what it is and how to do it right, so part of the fun is arguing about barbecue. A lot of people really don’t know the true history of barbecue, but they are dead set on what they think it is. PHILLIPS: Everyone has that point where they wanted to break through and learn more about a topic. For you, it was when you read Southern Food: At Home, on the Road, in History by John Egerton. The author believed that there “had yet to be written a true tribute to Black achievement in the American culinary scene.” Do you think that gap has been filled? And how far do we have

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“Cooking is an act of love. When somebody cooks for you, they’re saying they care about your survival.” —ADRIAN MILLER to go until you feel like we’re at a good place? MILLER: I think we’ve made a lot of progress on that in the last 15 years. So when I first started looking at the subject, there wasn’t really much written in fact. What launched this journey was unemployment. I was in between the Clinton administration and at that time in my life, I wanted to be the senator from Colorado. So I was trying to get back to Colorado and start my political career, but the job market was really slow. In the depth of my depravity, I said, “I should read something.” That’s what got me to Egerton’s book. There wasn’t much written, and when I reached out to food writers, when I decided to start this journey, a lot of the food writers told me, “Hey, look, there’s not much on African Americans. This country is racist. You’re just not going to find that much

stuff.” Now, the people I talked to hadn’t really heard of this thing called the internet, and with the internet, I quickly had enough information to write five books. Jessica B. Harris was certainly the pioneer, kind of, in this field. So her book and then that High on the Hog series, and then other people like Michael Twitty, Toni TiptonMartin. Michael Twitty is interesting, because he’s talking about antebellum food ways as well as he’s Black, gay, and Jewish, so he’s talking about the connections of all of those things. Toni Tipton-Martin has certainly written a lot. There’s a lot more food writing happening, but we still have a ways to go, because there’s so many stories that remain untold. PHILLIPS: So your first full-time job was at Luther’s barbecue in Aurora, Colorado.

Left: Following the program in the Taube Family Auditorium, attendees headed to the rooftop Kaiser Permanente Terrace for some delicious berbecue from Oakland’s legendary Horn Barbecue. (Photo by John Zipperer.) Above (l to r): Justin Phillips, KGO-TV morning anchor Kumasi M. Aaron, and Commonwealth Club Board of Governors member Brenda Wright. (Photo by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto.)

You were working as a dishwasher, cleaning tables, and that played a part in your development and interest in barbecue. As a dishwasher and a busser, is there anything that is a cardinal sin to leave unfinished on your plate at a barbecue restaurant? MILLER: For me, it’s the barbecue spare rib, because that’s my touchstone, that’s my go-to thing. Cooking is an act of love, right? When somebody cooks for you, they’re saying they care about your survival. It’s sustenance. Even if the food is straight-nasty, the act of doing that is meaningful. If you’re not feeling it, just give it to somebody else so they could savor that. PHILLIPS: So basically clean your plate. MILLER: Yeah, clean your plate. PHILLIPS: You’re an official barbecue judge, but you also admit your shortcomings when it comes to barbecue. Is that a crucial element to being able to understand what

makes barbecue special? MILLER: Great barbecue comes through the trial and error process. You’ve got to put in the time, make those mistakes, and learn from it. At this point in my journey, I’m much better at eating barbecue than cooking it, but I endeavor. PHILLIPS: Should we or should we not be using the term pitmasters? What’s the phrase that you would like to use? MILLER: I like the term barbecuer, and I use that intentionally in the book to stay away from that idea of pitmaster, but one thing to understand is that pitmaster is a very recent term, relatively speaking. Barbecue has been around several centuries. Pitmaster really didn’t come into the language until the 1950s or so. Daniel Vaughn, the barbecue editor of Texas Monthly magazine, is the one who dug that up. Back in the day, say in the 1900s, 1800s,

they would call them superintendents, so you were superintending a barbecue. Later, it became barbecue man, because most of them were men. Then it was barbecue king. Everybody was calling themselves barbecue king because self-promotion is a huge part of barbecue. I prefer barbecuer. PHILLIPS: I want to touch on that painful, racist part of barbecue. You talked about in the book how barbecue talent among slaves was a point of plantation-owner pride, right? But also at this time plantation owners would whip slaves. Jim Crow era lynchings were called, “negro barbecues.” Also during Jim Crow, white restaurant owners objectified the Black barbecue style by forcing cooks to the margins and using caricatures like Aunt Jemima. Eating around the country in small towns, there are a ton of barbecue spots and soul food restaurants where the owners might lean into this kind of stereotype at some point. Not to say they’re behaving this way, but they don’t mind being called big mama or something like that. Being able to take control of a narrative like that, is that empowerment by using the character for our AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

economic advantage, or do you not want to see that kind of style or brand of restaurant? What do you think? MILLER: I’m about reclaiming things, because I think by reclaiming it, we can take the sting out of certain things. This is not necessarily barbecue, but the way that fried chicken and watermelon have become so toxic, I definitely want us to reclaim that, because it’s some of the most delicious stuff on the planet. There’s a lot of reasons why those stereotypes cause harm, but to give just a little bit of context, I believe that barbecue is made possible by enslaved labor, because old school barbecue was very labor intensive. You had to dig a trench, a couple feet wide, a couple feet deep. You had to fill that trench with hardwood burning coals. Animals had to be slaughtered and processed and butterflied, poles stuck on them and then somebody had to flip that through the cooking and somebody had to replenish the coals in the fire. It just goes on and on. Then, after all that work was done, enslaved African Americans were asked to entertain. It was a Black experience from beginning to end. Old-school barbecue was scalable. So in the early 1800s, you’re reading about barbecues for 10,000 to 20,000 people. You don’t hear about fried chicken dinners for 10,000, because the logistics are impossible, but it’s possible with barbecue and slave labor. By the time you get to the 1830s or so, you’re getting newspaper articles saying, “legitimate barbecue needs to have a negro man or colored man”—the language of the time—”do X, Y, or Z.” We’re part of the recipe. PHILLIPS: It’s so interesting that you brought up the idea of consuming chicken or watermelon in a public space where it’s not predominantly Black. I don’t feel selfconscious if I’m eating barbecue in a space that isn’t filled with people that look like us. Is it a communal aspect? Why is barbecue different? MILLER: If you go back and look at the literature of the 1870s and ‘80s when these stereotypes were getting power, catfish and barbecue were all part of it. Some of the most Top: Justin Phillips (left) interviews Horn Barbecue owners Matt and Nina Horn on the rooftop terrace. Below: Food served up by Horn Barbecue. Facing Page: Board of Governors member Brenda White introduced the program. (Photos by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto.)

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racist stuff is about barbecue, but we don’t hold the same stigma for barbecue now. If you were to have a scale, I think the tonnage of crap about fried chicken and watermelon just far exceeds barbecue. PHILLIPS: When author John Grisham asked you what’s the difference between Black and white barbecue, your response was simply Black barbecue tastes better, right? I respect that. It also made me spit out my coffee when I was reading it. What can be said about the visual, the aesthetic qualities of Black barbecue that makes it different from white barbecue? MILLER: I knew this was going to be hard to write this chapter and prove my point, but I just think after you’ve eaten a lot of barbecue made by African Americans, there’s a certain visual aspect—you’re expecting to see char, the meat is not as butchered. For instance, spare ribs. In a Black joint, you’re not going to see St. Louis cut ribs that often. The ribs are ovular in their shape and so the St. Louis cut is taking off the tips and just trying to create a more rectangular uniform look. Black joints, you’re going to see the rib tip attached. You might even see that flap on the back of ribs. It’s just less butchering and more fat. Also, highly seasoned and definitely, without a doubt, sauce. There’s this emerging conventional wisdom that barbecue should be un-sauced. I’m going to go out on a limb and say most Black people would say, “Says who?” I’ve been to Black barbecue joints where you get your plate and it’s an ocean of sauce with little islands of meat poking. The sauce is the calling card. I got an email today from some guy. He’s just like, “I loved your book. My dad ran a barbecue joint in Ithaca, New York. He’s been gone for 30 years but people still talk about the sauce.” They’re not talking about the meat, they’re talking about the sauce. PHILLIPS: So my family lived in Jackson, Mississippi, for a little while, and there’s this place called . . . oh, man, I think it was like E&L Barbecue. Little hole-in-the-wall place. I remember they would do the rib tips and give you a bowl of it. You would have to be like, “Is there meat in there?” It used to just be the sauce, just about it. MILLER: There are a lot of old school barbecue joints that would just give you sauce and bread, and part of that was for poor customers who couldn’t afford to have the meat. That shows you how important sauce is. PHILLIPS: Is there such a thing as

consistency in the creation of a barbecue? Or is it the fallible nature of the exercise that makes it so unique? Do you almost not want it to be perfect, and that’s what makes it perfect? MILLER: Are we talking about in African American context or just in general? PHILLIPS: Let’s say the African American context. MILLER: I think that everybody has a signature. Often, African American barbecue is going to be messier. I think about a lot of spots that are celebrated, they’re white owned. The meat comes out. It’s perfectly manicured. It’s social media ready, right? In a lot of Black joints, it’s going to be chopped up with white bread and sauce on it, maybe all wrapped together with fries and brownies. I think it’s the imperfect part of it—this is this person’s signature, and I’m going to gobble it up. PHILLIPS: We definitely have those places that are like, “It was cool on Tuesday. It wasn’t that great on Friday, but I’m going to go back on Saturday.” MILLER: Right, or you call and ask who’s cooking. PHILLIPS: Your book does an amazing job with so many things, but one of them is highlighting the influence of Black women in barbecue in this country. I want to give you the space right now to talk about that. MILLER: Barbecue is often presented as an all-boys club, right? The masculinity is just dripping. In my own family, my late mother was the griller-in-chief. It’s only later in life that my dad really took over the barbecue duties. In my book, I give a lot of profiles of

people who I think really evoke the themes of a chapter, and one of the most fascinating people I came across was a woman named Mary John, but her birth name was Marie Jean because she was born when Arkansas was French territory. In 1840s Pine Bluff, Arkansas, there is a newspaper account of her superintending a barbecue. She ends up buying her freedom, stays in Arkansas, runs a highly regarded restaurant. When she dies, the white newspaper eulogizes her. A Black woman telling dudes what to do in 1840s Arkansas, that just shows you how deep Black women run in barbecue. Even if a place is not run by a Black woman, a lot of these men who are running spots will tell you, “Oh, yeah. This is my grandmother’s sauce recipe” or “My mother taught me to do it.” Sometimes the restaurants are named after women. I just wanted to really make that point that Black women have been in the barbecue game. Like I say, sisters have been “grilling” it for themselves for a long time. PHILLIPS: So your mom ran the show during barbecues. Can you talk about that a little bit? Does she have a specialty? MILLER: We were more of a ribs, chicken and hot link kind of family. Then we would have other stuff for kids. Hamburgers, bratwurst, and all that kind of stuff. My grandmother had her own sauce recipe, which I found while going through my mom’s stuff. I found this handwritten recipe, which was really cool. I’m letting out some secrets here, but a lot of people just doctor commercial sauces and call it their sauce. I have fond memories of my mom taking AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

Open Pit barbecue [sauce], cutting a lemon, and putting it in there with other spices. It was pretty slamming. PHILLIPS: The pandemic took a heavy toll on Black businesses in this country. Early on, 40 percent were either closing or on the brink of closing. Then we had a year of social unrest and people calling for racial justice. Black Lives Matter, which has been doing work for years, got an even bigger stage right now. Out here in the Bay Area, we had a moment where people were called to go support Black businesses and they saw an uptick in support, but it didn’t last that long for many of them. Do you think this moment is going to have a lasting impact, this desire for people to do something positive? We have good people, well-intended people out here in the Bay Area that aren’t Black that want to support these businesses. Do you think that’s going to last? And can that, coupled with a post-pandemic desire to be in communal spaces, be a benefit for Black businesses? MILLER: Oh, definitely. I think one reason is that the attention is still being paid. Typically in the past, we’ve had communal moments around grief or tragedy and usually the energy lasts for a couple months, and it dissipates. I haven’t really seen that. We’re more than a year out, and there are still people reading the books and asking the questions. What I’m finding is a lot of people outside the Black community are wondering, “What can we do next?” and are looking for practical suggestions on next steps. I think we have to be vigilant and keep telling people ways to support Black businesses at this time. We have to keep that fire burning. I’m going to say something that’s going to sound in-conflict, but one of my favorite Black-owned barbecue joints in Denver did close because of the pandemic, but I think it’s because they had a big space that relied a lot on in-person dining. I think a lot of Blackowned barbecue joints are take-out, so I’m thinking that maybe they’re doing all right. PHILLIPS: Especially down South, those are a lot of little take-out, stop-in-real-quick joints. That’s a very good point. MILLER: Another side of that reflects injustice, because Black entrepreneurs often don’t get enough capital so that they can invest and have a sit-down place. So they’re doing the best they can with the resources they have. PHILLIPS: Let alone afford a liquor license, which out here is secondary market. They’re crazy expensive. You make the argument in

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“The sauce is the calling card. . . . They’re not talking about the meat, they’re talking about the sauce.” —ADRIAN MILLER this book about barbecue techniques and how they didn’t migrate from the Caribbean as European colonists moved north. There’s also a suggestion that America’s barbecue is more homegrown, borrowed from Native Americans. In the book you talk about how they used rotating spits, raised platforms, shallow pits, and vertical holes to cook their wild game. At the same time, you say there’s little evidence to support the theory that American barbecue can trace its roots to West Africa. That was something fellow food writer and historian Michael Twitty couldn’t endorse. He was like, “I just can’t. I don’t know if I can get down with that thinking.” Have you been getting pushback from other people within your writer community, who look like you, about this? Because you dropped a lot of knowledge and I imagine that some other Black writers would be like, “I don’t know about that.” MILLER: Actually, the most criticism I’ve gotten in that realm has been from other African Americans. Look, trust me. I wanted to prove, without a doubt, that barbecue was West African in origin. I wanted to do this and say, “Wakanda Forever,” but I’m in a literary tradition, so I look at sources. Right now, the available sources do not suggest that. There’s a couple reasons why. First of all, Europeans were in West Africa at least a century before they got to America. There’s no documentation of this type of cooking. What we do know is when Europeans showed up in the Caribbean and they saw this type of cooking, they talked about this as if it’s something they’ve never seen before. They write about it and make illustrations about it. These illustrations cause a sensation in Europe, and they had the same kind of view of Africans before. So I’m curious as to why that didn’t happen. The second thing is West Africans don’t even cook like that today. If you look at West African barbecue, it’s more street food, skewers with chunks of meat, highly seasoned. This whole-animal cooking that evolves in the South, it doesn’t show up. Barbecue history is so hazy, and problematic.

There’s a good criticism to say, “Well, you’re relying on Europeans for this.” Of the three major players in this, Native Americans, West Africans and Europeans, the Europeans are the only ones that have a literary tradition. Everybody else is oral history, so it’s hard to figure out what’s going on. I relied on what Europeans said they saw. It’s problematic because looking at the sources, they weren’t always good at the descriptions and there are a lot of times they had an agenda. The earliest barbecue scenes were just fish on a raised platform in the Caribbean, and on that platform were fish and vegetables, and iguanas. When the Europeans with an agenda started writing about barbecue a couple decades later, because they’re bent on conquest and dehumanizing the indigenous people in Caribbean, all of a sudden human limbs start showing up on the barbecue grill. It’s problematic, but there were several techniques that were seen in the American South, and pit barbecue is different from cooking on that raised platform. So, to me, something else was going on. It just looked like Europeans saw something that Native Americans were doing in Virginia, modified, added their quick grilling techniques, and then enslaved Africans got in the mix later. That puts us on the road to something we call Southern barbecue. All the people that have called me out, like, “You’re not a real brother man. You’re saying that Africans didn’t . . .” All right. Look, here are the receipts. This is how I reach the conclusion. Nobody has said I’m wrong. They haven’t proved it. PHILLIPS: You had a desire to prove something that Black people have held true for a long time, but you also were open to evidence showing different. How important is that when it comes to being a food historian? I feel like a lot of people might just try to validate something that they already know, but you have to be way more open than that, right? And probably susceptible to being disappointed sometimes. MILLER: Food tells a story, but I’m on a journey for truth, and I don’t think that the

Above: Davey D provided the music for the rooftop BBQ dinner following the program. Left and below: Attendees enjoyed fresh barbecue, book signing, and conversation. (Photo by Sarah Gonzalez/SMG Foto.)

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

fact that somebody else created something means that it’s not wholly part of my culture and that we didn’t do a lot to develop this thing that we all love today. I don’t think those are mutually exclusive, but I’m on a journey for truth. PHILLIPS: In 2013, you wrote a book that won a James Beard Award. For people that aren’t in the food world, it’s sometimes kind of hard to explain what a James Beard Award is. How did you explain that to people, and what did that award do for your career? MILLER: I told people it’s just like winning an Oscar for film or a Grammy for music, and then people are like, “Oh, okay.” I don’t think the James Beard Award means as much to writers as it does to chefs and restaurants, because I didn’t see an immediate explosion in attention. It’s been a slow build. The biggest explosion of attention in my career was actually the “High on the Hog” appearance [on Netflix], but it gave me street cred and led to other things. It was thrilling, because I never expected that award. I had practiced two things, my acceptance speech and then my fake, “Oh, I’m so happy you won instead of me,” when they zoom in on you. I thought it was going to be the latter, because it was my first book.

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PHILLIPS: Can you talk about the research that goes into this? MILLER: I’ve only had a few strokes of genius in my life, and I had one in this case. When I started researching the soul food book, I just grabbed all the information I could about everything, and I included barbecue. The first book took about 12 years, because I had a day job. So it was a side hustle. I was a grad student spending evenings and weekends working on it. I read 3,500 oral histories of formerly enslaved people looking for all references for food. I read thousands of newspaper articles and magazines. Some go back to the 1300s and are word-searchable. I talked to hundreds of people. Then, because I care so much about my craft, I’ve decided to eat my way through the country. Since I’m a soul food scholar, I call people who help me out research assistants. I’m always on the lookout for research assistants. The second book took four years. This one took about three, because I had that solid foundation of that research before that I could draw upon. I didn’t have to start from scratch. PHILLIPS: You’re not just going into a city and picking around . . . or are you? What goes into that journey across the country?

I imagine that there’s some kind of formula to it? MILLER: I’m always jealous of these people that just drive around, because I’m too broke to do that. PHILLIPS: You can’t waste money. MILLER: Yeah. I had to focus my trips. So I said, “Okay. Where am I likely to get the great barbecue stories?” I didn’t get to everywhere I wanted to, because the pandemic cut that short. My strategy was this: I have a really good social media following. So I would just put it out there. “Hey, I’m thinking about going to this place. Where should I eat?” So that’s the first cut. The second cut is I actually reached out to the food writers in certain cities and asked them for their spots. Now, sadly they weren’t up on a lot of the Black joints, believe it or not. I didn’t get a lot, but when I did get it, it was a gold mine. I actually did look at things like Yelp and Trip Advisor, not because I really believe what the people are writing there, but I thought if a place was heavily commented upon, it’s a place I probably should check out. And then if I could, I always left a couple of days because it’s just when you get into a place, you find out about all those joints.

Left: Justin Phillips chats with the Horns. This page: Adrian Miller on stage in the Club’s Taube Family Auditorium. (Photos by Sarah Gonzalez/ SMG Foto.)

PHILLIPS: Has social media hurt Black businesses or helped Black businesses? Some of these places, the food can be amazing, but it might not be photogenic. MILLER: I think it’s a double-edged sword. The Black businesses that have figured this piece out, they’re doing well and they’re thriving. I think the downside of it is what you just said. A lot of Black barbecue is messy, and so it’s not “Instagramable.” It’s having real consequences for these Black businesses, because with the ascendancy of, say, Central Texas Barbecue, focused on brisket. Now people are walking into Black joints across the country that are traditionally pork-based, and they’re asking, “where’s the brisket?” And if it’s not on the menu, they’re walking out because they’ve gotten the message— that’s what great barbecue is. So now these Black barbecuers are responding in two different ways. Some are like, “All right. This is what I do.” Others are like, “Oh, man. I can’t lose these customers. Let me start making brisket.” There’s a lot of mediocre brisket being made. My tagline about a lot of stuff is, “there’s room to cook out for everyone” so stop saying, “this is the only way to do it,” let’s start talking about, “Well, this is how I do

Red Soda on Juneteenth Red Drinks are often consumed on Juneteenth and other celebrations as a way to commemorate the blood shed by ancestors. Adrian Miller points to two ceremonial West African red drinks as origins: Kola nut tea, from the same plant that gives us Coca-Cola, and Hibiscus tea, from the flower of the same name. Hibiscus tea spread to the Caribbean, where it’s made with ginger and widely known as agua de jamaica (jamiacan water). In the United States, Red Kool-Aid became a popular go-to red drink as early as the 1920s, partly due to its accessibility as a cheaper alternative to soda pop. In Texas, Big Red strawberry soda still has a hold on the region, while cities further north may cling to strawberry Fanta or Faygo. Red is also a prominent symbol across many African cultures and appears on the flags of more than 40 countries on the continent. The Pan African flag, adopted in 1921 to represent Black people across the diaspora, features red to symbolize the common ancestry of Black people, and the blood shed in the fight for liberation. —Corey Rose

it, but there’s other ways that people do it.” PHILLIPS: What do you want people to take away from this book? MILLER: I would say that Black Smoke is a celebration of African American barbecue culture. It’s a restoration of African Americans to the barbecue narrative, because in a lot of barbecue media, African Americans are pushed to the sidelines, or left out entirely. It’s a pushback on the idea that barbecue media has fallen deeply, madly, softly, tenderly in love with white dudes who barbecue. The last thing I want is, if you get invited to a Black barbecue, don’t show up with raisins in your coleslaw or your potato salad. PHILLIPS: Is there a Bay Area type of barbecue or is it the homogenization of a bunch of things? MILLER: Yeah. It’s an amalgamation. I have not picked up a distinctive Bay Area barbecue vibe, but that doesn’t mean that it could not develop. I think one thing that might be interesting that could be distinctively Bay Area is vegan barbecue. A lot of interesting things are happening with vegan cuisine in this area. One thing you find out when you get into barbecue culture as much as we talk about tradition, you could start something. You just

got to get enough people on board in order to say, “that’s a regional style.” If people think there is a Bay Area style, I would love to hear that, but I just don’t see one. I see elements from other places that show up here. PHILLIPS: What is your 60-second idea to change the world? MILLER: I was thinking about a limited dinner series guide to difficult conversations. The first would be a potluck. The next one, the marginalized group that’s affected by the challenge has the platform. The third meeting would be a clap back. So all the people who are not part of that marginalized group would say, “Here’s what we heard. This is how we’re processing it.” Then the last would be a meal where we talk about the journey together. The food story is this: Potluck first. Second meeting, everybody else who’s outside of the marginalized groups, cooks the food of the marginalized group. Third meeting is comfort food, because we’re processing stuff. Then the last meeting would be a fusion of all the people who have been part of that journey. PHILLIPS: I love that. MILLER: That’s what I’m thinking about. So I call it the welcome table. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

THE MENOPAUSE MANIFESTO

THE DIGITALLY SAVVY BAY AREA DOCTOR WHO

has been called “the world’s most famous gynecologist” returns to take on myths and misunderstandings about menopause in her usual fashion: facts, science, historical perspective, expert advice and humor. From the June 2, 2021, online program “Dr. Jen Gunter with Samantha Bee: The Menopause Manifesto” held on June 2, 2021. An Inforum and Marin Conversations program, presented with support from Relevant Wealth Advisors. Dr. JEN GUNTER, M.D., OB/GYN and Pain Medicine Specialist; Author, The Menopause Manifesto SAMANTHA BEE, Comedian; Host, “Full Frontal with Samantha Bee,” TBS

SAMANTHA BEE: I am so excited to speak with Dr. Jen Gunter, an obstetriciangynecologist, friend to all the women, a fearless advocate for women’s health. Her new book, which is right here on my child’s book case, The Menopause Manifesto, it’s so informative and it’s a deeply humorous work to counter the stubborn myths, attitudes and misunderstandings that society has about menopause. Dr. Jen Gunter, welcome. I’m so excited to talk to you.

JEN GUNTER: I’m so excited to talk to you, too. And thank you so much for hosting. BEE: It is my deep pleasure. So let’s talk about your good news. Your book is already [a success]. GUNTER: It hit The New York Times bestseller list, first week out. And it was the number one book for all of Canada. BEE: I was telling you before we began that I am so not surprised, because people really want to read this book. I wanted to read this book. I’m 51 years old, so from the moment I heard that this book was coming, boy, I was ready. Okay. Let’s get right into it. Do you recall the first time that you began to conceptualize menopause? When was that real for you? Even a little bit. GUNTER: Well, the first time I actually just heard of any concept about it, I think was when I got my own period. A few days later, because my mother wasn’t very observant or maternal, she said, “Oh, that’s started.” And I said, “Yeah, I’ve got it covered. It’s okay.” And she said, “Well, what are you using?” And I showed her the pads with sticky back on them. And she’s like . . . “They didn’t have those when I had that. I’m all done with that.” That was the extent of it. I’m all done with that.

She’d use menstrual belts. For those of who don’t know, people are probably like “What? A menstrual belt?” Google them. BEE: Oh my God, “I’m all done with that.” GUNTER: Yeah. So that was it. That was the extent of it. I don’t believe I had heard it mentioned really until I got to medical school. I mean, I just can’t remember it being mentioned. BEE: Right. I mean, I think for a lot of families, it’s really a story told in whispers, and knowing looks, and things like “I’m done with that” around the kitchen table. GUNTER: Right. Or windows being flung open. BEE: Yes. Oh my gosh, my own step-mom used to wear Bjorn Borg tennis wristlets and head band when she would walk around New York City, and I was like, “What is going on with you?” She was just like, “I’m hot. I’m just so hot all the time.” Okay, we can get into some more technical stuff. You speak in the book about how, because of your intense medical training, you knew a lot about menopause. But when you yourself began to go through it, were there surprises? Were you even surprised by what surprised you? GUNTER: Well, so there weren’t really any

surprises, because I knew what was going to happen. So I was prepared. For example, when I had irregular bleeding or heavy bleeding, I wasn’t surprised. But I was, I would say, a little bit taken aback by what a hot flash actually felt like, right? BEE: Right. GUNTER: Because you can conceptualize what heavy bleeding is like, but it’s not like having a fever. I thought it was going to be like having a fever and it’s not; it’s this bizarre wave that comes over you. And I found the term hot flash inept. I didn’t like hot flashes either. When I started doing research for the book and I found out women used to call them hot blooms, I was like, “That’s exactly what it feels like.” BEE: Right yes. The tingling in your toes that just crawls its way up your body and then flies up the top of your head. GUNTER: Yeah, it really does feel like it’s coming out of your head. It’s so strange. And so, now actually in the office, I tell women about the [term] hot blooms and everyone goes, “Oh yeah, that’s better.” BEE: That makes a lot of sense. I’m actually always personally surprised by the number of intelligent, educated women in my own social circle who have little to no information about menopause. And then because I’m personally very unafraid to talk about it, I just do a little tiny probe and the floodgates open. You know what I mean? Once you start the conversation, it’s unstoppable. And a lot of people that I know really base their knowledge on that old study from the nineties. There is so much misinformation out there or lack of information and so much shame. Is this why you wanted to write this book? GUNTER: Absolutely. When I was on tour for The Vagina Bible, in the olden days when we used to do book tours and there’d be an audience and you’d do questions at the end, everybody wanted to talk about menopause, every time. As soon as one woman asked, then others would stand up. Then when people come up and you autograph the book, “What did you think about this book on menopause? What did you think about it?” It was just question after question. Sometimes women even don’t want to bring it up in the office, and you have to probe to get them to talk about it. So there’s been so much culture of shame about this just normal phase of life. I wanted to try to put an end to that. BEE: I have found in my own life that many doctors can be incurious about the wonderful world of a woman’s body. How has the study of female medical topics like menopause changed as more women have entered the medical AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

“I hear so many women say that they’re just brushed off and told this is just part of being a woman.” —JEN GUNTER workforce? How is the knowledge changing? How is it growing? And what will it look like 30 years from now? GUNTER: Well, for example, when I was training, we were taught that menopause was not quite a disease, but not far off it. They use terms like ovarian failure in lectures and things like that. So we looked at it through this lens of failure. I think as we’ve had greater diversity—and obviously it took a while, right? Because you think about how few women were originally in medicine. All those women had to get to be the age, to even be menopausal, and had to stick it out through all the rigors because it’s stacked against you just like in everywhere else. So, yeah, I think that that diversity of finally getting women in menopause who are actually being able to say, “Hey, wait a minute, these symptoms matter,”—because I hear so many women say that they’re just brushed off and told this just part of being a woman. BEE: Right. GUNTER: And no one ever says that to men. Oh, well, erectile dysfunction. That’s just part of being a man. BEE: “You’ll be fine. You’ll get over it.” I mean, you won’t get over it, but you’ll learn to live with it. GUNTER: That’s your new normal, sweetie? BEE: So how do we reform the language around menopause? Because the term itself could use a reworking. GUNTER: Yeah. I think we have to look at all the words we use to describe women’s bodies, because so many of the words are dismissive or diminutive. For example, they used to call the changes in the vagina that we see with menopause atrophy. That’s just not acceptable. We don’t say penile shrinkage, so why would we say vaginal atrophy? Even the word menopause itself, I find problematic because first of all, your last menstrual period is one of the least important things about what’s happening to you. And secondly, doesn’t it seem a bit odd to describe me in relation to my last period? When I was 25, we didn’t describe (continued on page 27)

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Dr. Jen Gunter. (Photo by Jason LeCras.)

Israel

Ancient Sites to Modern-Day Startups February 21–March 4, 2022

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

ITINERARY

Friday, February 25

Monday, February 21

Experience Yad Vashem, a powerful living memorial dedicated to the Holocaust. Visit the West Bank with our Palestinian guide, starting with Bethlehem to see the Christian holy sites, including the Church of the Nativity, said to mark the place of Jesus’ birth. Herbert Samuel Jerusalem (B,L,D)

U.S. / Tel Aviv, Israel

Depart on flights to Israel.

Tuesday, February 22 Tel Aviv / Jerusalem

Upon arrival at Ben Gurion Airport, transfer to Jerusalem and check into our centrally located hotel. As most flights arrive in the evening, there are no group activities this day. Herbert Samuel Jerusalem

Wednesday, February 23 Jerusalem

After a tour orientation, explore the Old City of Jerusalem and sites important to the three major monotheistic religions. Visit the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, one of the most important sites to Muslims. Walk portions of the Via Dolorosa and enter the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, said to be the site where Christ was crucified and buried. Following lunch visit the Western Wall. Then enjoy free time to browse the alleys and shops. Tonight gather for a welcome dinner. Herbert Samuel Jerusalem (B,L,D)

Thursday, February 24 Ramallah / Jerusalem

We continue to Ramallah, the provisional capital of the Palestinian Authority, where we hear from Palestinians about the issues they face and their hopes for a settlement in this long, unresolved issue. Return to Jerusalem in the late afternoon. After a pre-dinner discussion, explore Mahane Yehuda, once a popular fruit and produce market, it’s now a hub of gourmet food stalls, restaurants and cafes. Herbert Samuel Jerusalem (B,L)

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Jerusalem / Bethlehem

Saturday, February 26 Masada / Dead Sea

This morning we drive to Masada, the location of the mountaintop fortress where Jews sacrificed their lives rather than succumb to the Romans. The importance of Masada remains in the psychological and political mindset of many Israelis. Continue to the Dead Sea, the lowest point on the earth. Swim or float in the relaxing salt waters and experience the health benefits of its natural minerals. Return to Jerusalem in the early evening. Herbert Samuel Jerusalem (B,L)

Sunday, February 27 Safed / Galilee

Travel north stopping in Safed, a charming city known for being a center of art and religious mysticism. Continue to the more rural area of Upper Galilee. Learn about the important role of kibbutzim in the development of Israel in the 20th century. Merom Golan (B,L,D)

Monday, February 28 Galilee / Golan Heights

Meet with an officer from the IDF (Israel Defense Forces). Then hear from people in a Druze town in the Golan Heights area. Druze are an Arabic-speaking sect found primarily in the mountainous areas of northern Israel, Syria and Lebanon. Later visit a winery and learn about Israel’s growing wine industry. Merom Golan (B,L,D)

Tuesday, March 1 Nazareth / Caesarea / Tel Aviv

Journey to Nazareth, the largest Arab town within Israel’s pre-1967 borders. See the Church of the Annunciation, believed to be where archangel Gabriel visited Mary. We also visit an Arab tech firm. Continue to the coast and explore the archaeological site and Roman city of Caesarea. Arrive in Tel Aviv in the early evening for dinner on your own. The Hotel Carlton (B,L)

Wednesday, March 2 Tel Aviv / Jaffa

Visit Jaffa, also known as Yafo in Hebrew, a mixed Jewish-Arab town, just south of Tel Aviv. Enjoy lunch on your own and time in the flea market with its wonderful mix art and antiques. Then continue to the Rabin Center, named after Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Enjoy dinner at one of Tel Aviv’s seaside restaurants. The Hotel Carlton (B,D)

Thursday, March 3 Tel Aviv

Learn about Tel Aviv’s various neighborhoods and architectural styles. See Bauhaus architecture, Dizengoff Street, Neve Tzedek, and the Florentine district. Enjoy a free afternoon to visit galleries, the beach, or rent bikes to travel the coastal path around Tel Aviv. Gather tonight for a special farewell dinner. The Hotel Carlton (B,D)

Friday, March 4 Tel Aviv / U.S.

After breakfast at the hotel, transfer to the airport for flights home. (B) “Extremely well planned and thought out. I particularly enjoyed the speakers, guides and meetings with the various groups and organizations offering varied perspectives.” - Jan Harrison, 2018

DETAILS DATES: February 21–March 4, 2022 GROUP SIZE: Minimum 12, maximum 22 COST: $8,125 per person, double occupancy $1,450 single-room supplement

INCLUDED: All activities as specified; airport transfers on designated group dates and times; transportation throughout; accommodations as specified (or similar); meals (B=breakfast, L=lunch, D=dinner) per itinerary; bottled water on buses and during tours; special guest speakers; local guide; gratuities to local guide, driver, and for included group activities; predeparture materials; Commonwealth Club representative with 15 travelers.

TOUR LEADER

JERRY SORKIN has been involved with

the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for more than three decades, having quietly brought together people from both sides of the issue. Conversant in both Arabic and Hebrew, Jerry has traveled extensively throughout the Middle East and North Africa, returning to the U.S. in 2016, after being based more than six years in Tunisia. He has organized and led many trips to Israel, all using his unique contacts to provide an exclusive and enlightening educational experience.

NOT INCLUDED: International air; meals not specified as included; optional outings and gratuities for those outings; alcoholic beverages beyond welcome and farewell dinners; travel insurance (recommended, information will be sent upon registration); items of a purely personal nature.

WHAT TO EXPECT OPTIONAL To enjoy this program, travelers must be in JORDAN overall good health and able to walk 1–2 miles a day (on average) and be able to stand EXTENSION for several hours during touring. Participants should be comfortable walking on uneven surfaces such as dirt paths and cobblestone streets, and getting on and off tour buses without assistance.

March 4-6

Travel to the desert oasis of Wadi Rum and the “Rose City” of Petra where caves, temples, and tombs were carved from blushing pink sandstone in the high desert of Jordan. Details provided on request and with trip confirmation packet.

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

Phone: (415) 597-6720 Fax: (415) 597-6729

RESERVATION FORM FEBRUARY 21–MARCH 4, 2022 Name 1

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Cell Phone We require membership in the Commonwealth Club to travel with us. Please check one of the following options:

E-mail Address SINGLE TRAVELERS ONLY: If this is a reservation for one person, please indicate: ___ I plan to share accommodations with _____________________________ OR ___ I wish to have single accommodations. OR ___ I’d like to know about possible roommates.

___ I am a current member of the Commonwealth Club. ___ Please use the credit card information below to sign me up or renew my membership. ___ I will visit commonwealthclub.org/membership to sign up for a membership. I want to join the Jordan Extension

I am a ___ smoker ___ nonsmoker. PAYMENT: Here is my deposit of $__________ ($1,000 per person) for ____ place(s).

____ Enclosed is my check (make payable to Commonwealth Club). OR ____ Charge my deposit to my ____ Visa ____ MasterCard ____ American Express

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Mail completed form to: Commonwealth Club Travel, P.O. Box 194210, San Francisco, CA 94119-9801, or fax to (415) 597-6729. For questions or to reserve by phone call (415) 597-6720. ___ I / We have read the Terms and Conditions for this program and agree to them.

Signature

TERMSANDCONDITIONS

The Commonwealth Club (CWC) has contracted with Iconic Journeys Worldwide (IJW) to organize this tour. Reservations: A $1,000 per person deposit, along with a completed and signed Reservation Form, will reserve a place for participants on this program. The balance of the trip is due 90 days prior to departure and must be paid by check. Cancellation and Refund Policy: Notification of cancellation must be received in writing. At the time we receive your written cancellation, the following penalties will apply: • 91 days or more prior to departure: no penalty • 90-60 days to departure: $500 • 59-1 days prior to departure: 100% fare Tour can also be cancelled due to low enrollment or due to travel advisories and regulations due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Neither CWC nor IJW accepts liability for cancellation penalties related to domestic or international airline tickets purchased in conjunction with the tour. Trip Cancellation and Interruption Insurance: We strongly advise that all travelers purchase trip cancellation 26 THE COMMO N WE AL TH a covered unand interruption insurance as coverage against foreseen emergency that may force you to cancel or leave the

trip while it is in progress. A brochure describing coverage will be sent to you upon receipt of your reservation. Medical Information: Participation in this program requires that you be in good health. It is essential that persons with any medical problems and related dietary restrictions make them known to us well before departure. COVID-19 protocols and requirements will be provided on regisration and prior to depature. Itinerary Changes & Trip Delay: Itinerary is based on information available at the time of printing and is subject to change. We reserve the right to change a program’s dates, staff, itineraries, or accommodations as conditions warrant. If a trip must be delayed, or the itinerary changed, due to bad weather, road conditions, transportation delays, airline schedules, government intervention, sickness or other contingency for which CWC or IJW or its agents cannot make provision, the cost of delays or changes is not included. Limitations of Liability: CWC and IJW its Owners, Agents, and Employees act only as the agent for any transportation carrier, hotel, ground operator, or other suppliers of services connected with this program (“other providers”), and the other providers are solely responsible and liable for providing their respective services. CWC and IJW shall not

be held liable for (A) any damage to, or loss of, property or injury to, or death of, persons occasioned directly or indirectly by an act or omission of any other provider, including but not limited to any defect in any aircraft, or vehicle operated or provided by such other provider, and (B) any loss or damage due to delay, cancellation, or disruption in any manner caused by the laws, regulations, acts or failures to act, demands, orders, or interpositions of any government or any subdivision or agent thereof, or by acts of God, strikes, fire, flood, war, rebellion, terrorism, insurrection, sickness, quarantine, epidemics, pandemics, theft, or any other cause(s) beyond their control. The participant waives any claim against CWC/IJW for any such loss, damage, injury, or death. By registering for the trip, the participant certifies that he/she does not have any mental, physical, or other condition or disability that would create a hazard for him/herself or other participants. CWC/IJW shall not be liable for any air carrier’s cancellation penalty incurred by the purchase of a nonrefundable ticket to or from the departure city. Baggage and personal effects are at all times the sole responsibility of the traveler. Reasonable changes in the itinerary may be made where deemed advisable for the comfort and well-being of the passengers. CST# 2096889-40

“I have found in my own life that many doctors can be incurious about the wonderful world of a woman’s body.” —SAMANTHA BEE (continued from page 22) me in relation to my first period. And some of the words we use, for example the word pudendum in medicine, which describes the outside of the vulva, the Latin root of that is to shame. And the hymen is named after the Greek god of marriage. BEE: Do you see progress? How do you change the language? How do you evolve that GUNTER: So there has been change. So for example, what we used to call atrophy, we now call genital urinary syndrome of menopause. It’s not exactly catchy acronym, but it works. It’s better. And what we used to call premature menopause, we now call primary ovarian insufficiency. So medicine can change. We can do better. It takes a lot of effort because the way we’ve always done it is the way the patriarchy has always done it. BEE: Right. Is there any cultural situation like books, movies, television, which you think have portrayed menopause well? It usually feels like a punchline; but have you seen depictions of menopause that you admire or you think this is good? GUNTER: Well, I like Grace and Frankie, with Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. I mean, they’re obviously years past their final period, but I think that there’s [realistic portrayals]. I think they did a great job. And I liked how Grace was married to a man younger than her. BEE: Can you show us what is behind you? GUNTER: Sure. When I was researching the book, something someone said to me, and I can’t remember if it was a tweet or if it was at a book tour, there was no culture of menopause. She felt lonely. That’s why I really took this deep dive into the history behind the word, the evolution of the medicine, and also looked at some of the older therapies. And it’s amazing what you can find on Etsy. Let me tell you. When other people were doing other pandemic shopping, I was trolling Etsy for cultural items of menopause. I have some medication from the 1920s. This bottle is Lydia Pinkham Vegetable Compound, which

Samantha Bee. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

was a home brew recipe from the 1800s containing nothing that could help you. But it was sold as if it could treat everything. And when it was finally tested, it was 18 percent alcohol. BEE: Sure. GUNTER: You were supposed to sip on it on those days when you felt fit for nothing. BEE: That sounds right to me. How much respect did you gain for earlier generations of women when you were researching some of these antiquated cures or treatments? GUNTER: The history of menopause and medicine is one of at most, I would say division. Women were considered inferior to begin with, and you helped yourself get rid of toxic, build ups of fluid with menstruation. Men were perfect, they didn’t have that toxic buildup, right? But then when you went through menopause, it’s not like you elevated to a higher social status. What happened is that stuff you weren’t releasing with your menstruation now was accumulating in your body. So that’s why you became even more ill. So if a 60-year-old man was working hard and hurt his shoulder, well it’s because he was working hard. But if it was a 60-year-old woman, it was because of her uterus. So all the therapies were designed to release fluid, to make you sweat, things like that. So the older therapies, if there were any, they were vaginal injections of lead, leeches on the vulva. BEE: I’m sorry, I’m just . . . GUNTER: Yeah, I know, right? Like every woman’s legs went together. Therapies like that. I read a lot of journals from the 1920s because again, everything’s online. These stories of these women coming in suffering, and people having very little to offer them because this was just the beginning of understanding anything about hormones. And so many of these women actually had radiation therapy to their pelvis for pelvic pain. They were left with early severe menopause. So yes, it’s just the suffering. And so the ability to mass produce hormones really I think alleviated a lot of suffering. BEE: How early do you think that we should start educating young people about menopause? GUNTER: Middle school? BEE: Middle school. GUNTER: Yeah. BEE: We have so many battles over sex education curriculum. I can’t imagine the battle if you try to add menopause into the order of the day. But it feels valuable to me. GUNTER: Right. BEE: I’m very inclined actually to take your

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book and give it to my husband. Because even though I talk about it constantly, I do think he just tunes me out a little bit. I wonder if a lot of the people who are watching this feel the same way, to have a partner who could share the experience, feels very valuable. GUNTER: Yeah. My partner read the book. He feels very up-to-date on everything on menopause. But back to getting into schools: We teach sex ed, we frame it with stopping pregnancy. That’s it. It’s very purity culture as opposed to learning how your bodies work. I personally believe if everybody knew what good sex was early, actually people might be making different choices, right? People do things because they’re curious and they don’t know. Wouldn’t it be better for people to know how everything works? And how everything works should be the full scope of your life. But if we can’t get it into middle school, which I’m still not going to stop on that mission— BEE: No, listen, I’ll join you in that mission. GUNTER: But I think everybody should know. We do a bad job of teaching biology in general. But I think anybody who partners with anybody who’s going through menopause could really learn about it. If your mom’s going through it, your sister, or your wife, your cousin, your partner, anybody could learn, because even if you’re not going through menopause yourself, maybe you should learn about why those jokes could be so hurtful to somebody. BEE: As with a lot of things, people with low information have many large scale opinions about things such as menopause. You have said that you expect a lot of hate mail for your chapter on supplements. Why is that? GUNTER: Well, I’m telling the truth and supplements make a lot of people a lot of money. For a lot of people, it’s like a religion.

What’s fascinating to me about this belief in supplements, so many people who promote supplements say, “Well, look at all the harms in medicine. Look how medicine has harmed people.” And yeah, so let’s look at how medicine has harmed people. How did thalidomide harm people? Oh, it harmed people by not being studied adequately and getting out there. How did DES harm people? By not being studied adequately and getting out there. Are we studying supplements adequately? No, we’re not. So when you look at it from that framework, if you’re expecting something to have a physical effect in your body, it’s got an active ingredient and the assumption should not be that that is a beneficial active ingredient. So, yeah, it’s a lot of people making a lot of money off of it. If your product is so great and so safe, you should go out and prove it. Don’t women deserve that? Don’t women deserve the studies to prove it’s safe and effective? BEE: Right. Why do you think that information from the study in the nineties is so pervasive even today? Because I tell you, I talked to a lot of people who still quote that information, and they’re hearing it from their own doctors, and that is alarming to me. GUNTER: Absolutely. Unfortunately, in medicine it can take 10 to 20 years from something that’s studied to make it into the office, which is not acceptable, but just so you know how long it takes. Cancer headlines are super scary and they scare doctors as well. And the headlines from the Women’s Health Initiative in 2002 were just ridiculous. It kept going over and everybody was frightened. Then the lawyers come out and, “Oh, have you taken menopausal hormone therapy? Contact us. Do you have . . .” So it’s this whole cycle of just completely spreading the misinformation. And it’s like when there’s an

“People do things because they’re curious and they don’t know. Wouldn’t it be better for people to know how everything works?” —JEN GUNTER

error in a newspaper, right? They print the retraction on the fifth page. All the studies that have come out now putting those risks in perspective, explaining the benefits of menopausal hormone therapy, and the risks when they are there, those things don’t appear on the front page. Fear sells and fear sticks with us. People are still more afraid of breast cancer than they are of heart disease, even though heart disease is the number one killer of women. And it doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be concerned about breast cancer, but the thing that’s killing more women doesn’t seem to get very much attention. BEE: How do we ensure that the research being done on the products being offered don’t just cater to one specific white woman? GUNTER: Well, now we have rules that studies have to include diversity. And we’re seeing more and more studies like that. For example, the “Study of Women’s Health Across the Nation,” the SWAN, which I referenced a lot, has quite a diverse group of women. But even then, if you enroll Asian women, that’s still a huge grouping of different people, right? BEE: Right. GUNTER: So if you enroll Hispanic people, that’s still a huge grouping of different people. And so obviously we need more and more data so we can refine things. I think we’re moving in that direction, but we clearly need to keep moving in that direction. BEE: What would you say are the most pervasive myths that come up when people speak to you about menopause? You must get the same three questions, pretty much every time you hit the road. What are those? Have I asked those three probably? GUNTER: Well, one is about “isn’t menopausal hormone therapy risky?” I always start with that and I say, “Well, driving

your car has risks, right? But you decide that there are benefits with it as well.” And they’re like, “Oh yeah.” I say there is a very low risk of breast cancer and some other things, but [with] transdermal therapy, the risk is actually incredibly low. For three or four years, the risk is essentially zero. It’s about as low risk as you can get. Risk needs to be put in perspective, and you have to decide what it’s doing for you. As long as it’s helping you, then that low risk may be something you can tolerate. So people have been brought up to think that menopausal hormone therapy is going to cause breast cancer for like 40 percent of people who take it. BEE: Right. GUNTER: As opposed to six per 10,000 women per year, and that mortality isn’t increased taking it. So there’s that. I think MHT was the biggest thing. The second is that there’s no good treatments. I’m like, “Well, actually there are quite a few. You probably just haven’t been offered them or offered them in a way that you could hear,” right? BEE: When you say that, what do you mean? GUNTER: Oh, well, so for example with the risks about MHT. “Oh, you could take a machine.” “Oh, doesn’t that cause cancer?” “Okay, well, let’s move on to the next thing.” As opposed to the doctor stopping and saying, “Well, let’s talk about that.” Or, say, antidepressants. “Oh, I don’t want those. I heard there was a dangerous [risk].” “Well, let’s talk about what do you mean by what have you heard?” Actually listening to what the person is worried about and then actually answering the question. People just say, “Oh, I don’t want that,” because maybe they heard a bad thing about it from someone, but they also deserve to hear the information. So I think that’s a big thing. And then the third thing is that it’s all over, everything’s just done. And it’s not. I mean, there’s so many women doing so many amazing things over the age of 50. This is a phase of life, this is not pre-death. BEE: Right. That’s good to hear. Thank you. Here’s a good question that came up in the chat. And I’m going to ask it, even though we’re not technically at that section, because it’s important. Do you have advice for people on how to speak up when you feel like your doctor isn’t taking your pain or your symptoms seriously enough? GUNTER: Yeah. I mean, that is definitely a challenge, and you shouldn’t feel like that in the office. But when that happens, I think that it’s important to say if you feel comfortable, “Well, I don’t think you heard me, and this is

what’s really bothering me. And are you telling me there are no treatments, or are you telling me . . .” So, to rephrase it. I think that if you can’t get help from that person, if that doctor’s not jelling with you, then unfortunately you probably do need to find another provider. It shouldn’t be like that. The onus shouldn’t be on the person. I absolutely agree with that. But you also have to say, “Well, if you have this problem, what’s the fastest way to get the help that you need?” I think also it’s very useful to know the guidelines for therapy, if you can, before you go to the office, right? So you have an idea if what you’re being told is actually in line with the guidelines, right? So for example, you could use my book as a reference for menopause or the North American Menopause Society. Because if you go in and you hear something that’s totally different, you might say, “Well, maybe this isn’t the provider for me anyway, because I want standard of care.” BEE: How can you tell the difference between memory loss that is a natural part of aging and the menopause transition, and something that might be a sign of something potentially more serious? GUNTER: That’s a great question. A lot of women experience something called brain fog during the menopause transition, where they can’t remember where the keys are. They’re just like a lot of people say when they have mommy brain, right? BEE: Sure. GUNTER: When you walk into a room and you just go, “Well, I knew I came in here for a purpose. I cannot find it,” or, “I came to the grocery store and I only needed one item, and no idea what that is. That’s why I didn’t write a list because it was only one item.” Brain fog is something that happens and is normal. It’s worrying, but it’s not worrisome, and it’s temporary. I think if anyone has symptoms where they’re concerned that they should be seen, because there’s a lot of different things that can cause those symptoms. For example, you could have depression, and depression can manifest as brain fog. So you want to be screened for depression. If you’re not sleeping well, you know what? Sleep apnea increases both with age and after menopause. That could affect how your brain is functioning. So you might need to be screened for that. If your memory loss is progressive, getting worse, then there are screening tools that your doctor can do concerning aspects of memory loss, and then refer you if appropriate. There are screening tools, questions, and an appropriate workup. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

Daisy Khan & Sara Abbasi:

UNDERSTANDING MODERN MUSLIM WOMEN

SARA ABBASI: It’s my pleasure to introduce our distinguished speaker, Daisy Khan. Daisy is founder of the Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality, known as WISE. She is co-founder and former executive director of the American Society of Muslim Advancement [ASMA], author of Born with Wings, and executive editor of WISE Up: Knowledge Ends Extremism. Daisy plans to follow Born with Wings with two forthcoming books, 30 Rights of Muslim Women, and WISE Up: White Supremacy. Today we’ll have an important conversation with Daisy about Islam and the advancement of Muslim women. Welcome, Daisy. It’s wonderful to see you. DAISY KHAN: Thank you very much, Sara, for having me and I also want to thank all those people at Commonwealth who are behind the scenes, who have made this program possible. ABBASI: I recently finished reading your book, Born with Wings, and I think everyone should get a copy. It is so well-written, full of wonderful

DAISY KHAN HAS DEVOTED MUCH OF HER

life to fighting Islamophobia, increasing public understanding of Islam and breaking down barriers between Muslims and other faiths. She has also worked to modernize the role of women within Islam. Khan’s awards and honors include the Eleanor Roosevelt Human Rights Award, Edinburgh Peace Award, and the Interfaith Center’s Award for Promoting Peace. She’s been listed among Time magazine’s 100 Most Influential People and was ranked among the “Top Ten Women Faith leaders” by The Huffington Post. From the June 16, 2021, online program “Islamic Activist Daisy Khan with Sara Abbasi: Understanding Modern Muslim Women.”

DAISY KHAN, Founder, Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality Photo by Voice of America and Equality (WISE); Co-Founder & Former Executive Director, American Society of Muslim Advancement (ASMA); Author, Born With Wings In Conversation with SARA ABBASI, Philanthropist; Provider of Endowment, Sohaib and Sara Abbasi Program in Islamic Studies, Stanford University

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

Daisy Khan

anecdotes and told with just such a great sense of humor. What prompted you to write a book about your life? KHAN: I decided to set the record straight about Muslim women and who they were by publishing a book titled, 100 Heroines of Islam. I met two literary agents who examined these photos and found the kaleidoscope of women’s faces truly striking. They loved it. Then they said, “There’s a problem, the market for illustrated books is gone, nobody does coffee table books anymore.” Then, they asked me about my work with these women. As I spoke about my passion for women’s rights and the work I was undertaking around the world, their interest was piqued. So, they asked me, had I written a book about my life? And I said, “I cannot imagine why anyone would want to read such a book.” They looked at each other, smiled, and then said, “We would.” So, the memoir was born. I wrote it so people could have a cup of tea with me while I give people a nuanced picture of Islam, of Muslims, which is currently, arguably, the most misunderstood

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and misrepresented faith on our planet today. ABBASI: Could you tell us about the title of the book, Born with Wings? Is there a story behind why you chose that particular title? KHAN: Rumi, the 13th century Muslim theologian, has a poem in which he says, “You are born with wings, so why crawl through life?” For me, this is a metaphor for the human condition. We’re all born equal with dignity and inherent capabilities to realize our potential as a human being or to reach great heights, but external circumstances somehow prevent us from doing so. In order for us to achieve these great heights, we must discover our purpose. Why are we here? And what am I supposed to do? And then what is my talent that will make me flourish or achieve my goal? So, this is why, in the book, I share my own journey of self-discovery as well. ABBASI: You talk about learning about religion and religious teachings more from your grandparents, from Moji and Dadaji, while you were growing up in Kashmir and just their life examples with some of the things they did around the community.

Could you share specific examples of how they imparted Islam or religious teachings to you as a child? KHAN: We lived in an extended family in a very large home. There were about 16 children in our house at one time, and everyone together, we were like the von Trapps. They sent in a religious tutor, who was brought in to teach us how to read and write the Quran. And just like the von Trapps, we made this guy’s life miserable. One cousin pulled a knife on him. Another one put a mouse under his chair, and he fled like his pants were on fire. We all cheered on, not realizing how detrimental this was going to be for us long term. I mean, today, I don’t know how to read the Arabic the way I should. So there was no formal education, because no imam would ever come to our house again, because the word was out that this is a terrible family. We basically watched our elders put the Quran into action. And there’s a verse in the Quran that says, “No compulsion in religion.” So there was no compelling, no doctrine passed on to us.

It was religion by emulation. When giving charity, our grandfather would show us how charity must be given by the right hand, so the left hand does not know. ABBASI: You gave your first official talk on Islam to your high school class when you were 16. Do you think that particular experience of presenting on Islam and looking at Islam in a completely different way, set the stage for your role as a spokesperson for Islam? KHAN: Yeah. I mean, for a social studies teacher, I was a true specimen. I mean, he loved the fact that there was somebody from over East. He inquired if I was Muslim, and when I replied, he asked me if I could tell the class about Islam. I mean, how many 16-year-olds know anything about Islam? We are talking pre-Google, pre-internet. I told him I had no idea what to say, but he was persistent. Why don’t I study up and come prepared for the class, he said. Then there was something that was ironic. The same thing had happened to my grandfather when he was at Harvard, he had been asked to do a presentation, and he discovered Islam in the library at Harvard, which was a very extensive library. Fortunately, his love of Islam resulted in him writing a book called The Kashmiri Muslim, which was an excellent resource for me. So I lifted the whole section of the five pillars of Islam and the beliefs of Muslims and the basic tenets. And here I was standing in front of the class, talking about the basic tenets of Islam to, largely, Jewish kids who knew little about their own religion, much less mine. At first, I was nervous, but as I was speaking, I felt as if a switch had been flipped inside me. Basic as it was, my little talk gave me a sense and control of leadership. Once again, I found myself at the podium and my classmates were intrigued, not so much about Islam, it seemed, but about my life. I was no longer the odd kid out, the girl people were pointing to, as I was now part of the conversation. My 16-year-old self was guided by a path paved by my grandfather and his cherished books. I realize now that the power of the family model increased me in knowledge, was actually going to become my set of wings that I would lean on throughout my life. Decades after my presentation to Mr. Green’s classroom, he and my school community would rise to defend me during the Ground Zero mosque controversy, which I was part of. I was one of the people that proposed it. I had to wonder if I had not shared my

beliefs with my teachers and my fellow students when I was in high school, would they have had the exposure that ultimately led them to understand and support me when so many people were rising to judgment? At that point, I thought I was just representing myself, but something inside of me made me realize that I was going to be an ambassador. This is a role many Muslims play today. I know Muslims that have the same story, how they were asked to rise up and speak for people and speak for the community. This has given rise to many Muslims who are civically engaged, who are running for politics, who are public speakers. So, this is just not my story, it’s a story of Muslims in general. ABBASI: In your book, you highlight the fact that the prophet abolished female infanticide, he established women’s rights of inheritance, of property, of divorce. What was the most surprising part of that research, when you did that research in New York many years later? KHAN: The more I delve into the Quran, the more I realize how much human equality is central to our faith. I’m not just talking about men’s and women’s equality, but really human equality in terms of the Quran saying, “I have created you nations and tribes, so you may get to know one another.” This diversity that we talk about, the “diversity and inclusion”, which is a corporate term, is actually a divine plan. So, for me, that is exciting, because that’s the worldview that I was raised in. In Islam, we believe that all humans are stewards of God. We’ve been given a piece of divinity, a divine charge, so to speak, to act God-like. I, as a woman, have that same charge. It’s not just a charge on men, it’s a woman’s charge as well. So, I realized, “Oh my God, I have a big responsibility.” I was able to stand taller and bigger, because now I was discharging something that God required me to do. That really opened my pathway to taking my activism very seriously, because it’s a tall order. ABBASI: Was that charge the motivation behind the launch of ASMA? Tell us more about ASMA, what the organization is and what it does. KHAN: I started ASMA in 1997, primarily to focus on how to create an American expression of Islam. Not American Islam, but an American expression; it has to do with how you conduct weddings, how you do your birthrights, which is uniquely different

Sara Abbasi

in every country, because we are products of our cultures and our customs. I stepped down from that organization to primarily start and focus on WISE, but the organization was created to build bridges between faith communities and to foster an AmericanMuslim identity for the next generation. ABBASI: In your book, there’s a powerful moment that talk about in your life, that took place after you gave a talk on Islam after 9/11. You were asked a question by an audience member that prompted you to quit your job in corporate America. Can you tell us what that question was and what you decided to do? KHAN: I had a corporate job, I was a fulltime architectural designer. I did work in the World Trade Center towers for about three years. I was on the 106th floor, which is one of the top-most floors. I was not there during 9/11, I was there before 9/11. So, after 9/11, I was kind of the tag-along person trying to help Imam Feisal, who was doing all his speeches. I accidentally double-booked him for a synagogue and a church. He said, “Well, we can’t disappoint either, why don’t you go to the church and I’ll go to the synagogue?” I said, “Well, I don’t know how to speak.” I mean, I could do presentations, but I’d never done public speaking on religious issues. He said, “Oh, you’ve heard me speak a thousand times. Just repeat what I say.” So, with that, I went to this little church in Princeton and just like the same frequently asked questions came up and, like a parrot, AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

I repeated everything. Then, this little old lady, bless her heart, she must’ve been in her late 80s, with white hair, she asked me the question about women in Islam. I said, “Women have been granted the right to divorce, to own property, to inheritance,” and all the things that people do not know about. She looked at me and she said, “I believe you, dear, but can you tell me why women in Afghanistan are being stoned to death?” Because that was the image that was circulating around, where a woman was shot in a soccer field while the men were cheering on. That image was very traumatic, because, as a Muslim woman, I felt like I couldn’t do anything. I was living so far away. I didn’t have a specific wherewithal, what can I do? Then, she asked me that next profound question, the life-altering question. She said, “Well, dear, just tell me, what are you doing about it?” And that, “What are you doing about it?” Really stayed with me. As I drove home, I wondered why I was giving my time to corporate America. I could be replaced in two seconds in corporate America, but my community needed me. My community needed my skill, because I was very skilled at developing things and creating things. I had a lot of skill, energy, and motivation. I was passionate about my faith and I had gone through a whole spiritual journey. I quit cold turkey, my paycheck and everything. I dedicated myself full-time to community

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development, not knowing what shape it was going to take. I was just ready for whatever was coming my way. ABBASI: In your book, you said you were inspired by how the suffragettes had used faith-based arguments to fight for women’s rights, and you’re doing something similar with WISE. Can you tell us about that and the impact that it’s had on the community? KHAN: I discovered the suffragettes, and then I discovered that there are actually pre-suffragettes in my own faith. So it was interesting. Devout Christian women, Black and white together, driven by their faith in a just God, that not only challenged inequality against women but also the practice of slavery itself. They wrote the statement at this first antislavery convention that reads as follows, that really had a profound effect on me. It says, “The time has come for women to move in the sphere which God has assigned her, and no longer remain satisfied with the limits of corrupt custom and perverse application of Scripture that has encircled her.” I thought at that time when I read that, and I said, “Oh my God, I could write the same exact statement for the women in my community and what they’re going through.” I established WISE as a faith-based movement to transform the position of women from within the Islamic faith and its tradition, because it’s there already. We

do this by collaborating together as women and supporting the work of Muslim women leaders worldwide. We started this in 2006, we brought 200 amazing Muslim women scholars, activists, artists, religious, and civil society leaders, who joined together to develop a holistic vision for improving the position of Muslim women around the world. We’ve had global conferences, we’ve got seven evidence-based position papers. We have the largest database of 600 influential Muslim women from the earliest of time to today on our website. ABBASI: There’s another book that you are coming out with, the book on women’s rights in Islam. Can you tell us a little bit about that book? KHAN: I’m publishing this book called 30 Rights of Muslim Women, which is a complete overview of women’s rights in Islam with clear chronic and historical support, to disentangle the universal tenets of Islam from the varying customs that prevent women from having these rights. A lot of times it’s the nexus of custom versus religion or custom trumping religion, that is the issue. Through these 30 rights, we hope to improve the lives of Muslim women by connecting them to their deeply held beliefs and giving them the powerful tool to aid their agency, so they can work in their own communities. It’s also intended as a formal charge to governments and religious leaders

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf

eisal Abdul Rauf was born in Kuwait in 1948 and emigrated to the United States in the 1960s with his father, Imam Muhammad Abdul Rauf. After earning degrees in nuclear engineering and plasma physics, he turned his focus toward religion and founded the American Society for Muslim Advancement in 1997. He has written five books on Islam, including a children’s version of the Quran. From 1983 to 2009, Rauf was the imam (leader of prayer) for Masjid al-Farah in New York City’s Tribeca district. He married Islamic activist Daisy Khan in the late 90s, and has advocated for the equality of women within Islam. Following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Rauf spoke at chuches and mosques all over New York City, provided cultural training to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and worked in the Bush and Obama administrations on outreach tours to foster better

to protect and uphold the Islamic rights of Muslim women, especially in those countries that want to call themselves Islamic. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan has no right to strip women of their Islamic rights. They can call themselves Islamic, they can call themselves the Republic of Taliban, but they can’t call themselves Islamic Republic of Afghanistan if they’re going to deny the rights that women have received in seventh century Arabia. A BBA SI: W hat a re the greatest misperceptions that you think non-Muslims have about Islam? What can the media do to correct these misperceptions? KHAN: So, the most common misperception is that somehow Islam is linked to terrorism or Islam is inherently violent. This is a gross mischaracterization of Islam. It is completely false, it is wrong. It would be like saying all white supremacists are all somehow based in Christian thought. ISIS and other groups exploit and weaponize Islam to meet their political goals, just like the white supremacists are weaponizing Christianity right now. Islam, the religion that we practice, has to be de-linked from the activity of the terrorists or what the terrorists do. They’re terrorists, Islam is a religion. The second one is that somehow women are second class citizens or don’t have the same rights. It’s just not true. The third one, which is more of a political issue, is that Muslims are not capable of democracy, and that they are only interested in theocracies. There are many Muslim nations that are democratic nations There are other [misperceptions], but I just

relationships between Islam and the West. His work centers the cultural ties between the foundations of Islam and the concept of American religious pluralism. His plans for a 13-story interfaith community center two blocks away from where the Twin Towers once stood were criticized by conservatives, including a pastor from Florida who threatened to burn just over 2,900 copies of the Quran if the building was completed. In a 2012 interview, Rauf told NPR’s Terry Gross, “There are moderates in Israel, there are moderates in Iran, there are moderates in the Republican Party, moderates in the Democratic Party. What we need to do is link all of these moderates together and to figure out a way by which this particular coalition can speak to important issues to marginalize the voice of the extremists.” —Corey Rose

mentioned the top three or four. ABBASI: What’s the greatest challenge facing Muslim women, both in and outside of the religion? KHAN: The greatest challenge I believe is that Muslim women themselves don’t know their own rights, so they don’t know how to fight for their rights. It’s my hope that after this book comes out, that women will have the information that they need at their fingertips, so they can fight for their rights. But that’s from within the faith. Externally, I am also hoping that the book can serve as a tool for our allies who don’t know, don’t understand when they are confronted with these false narratives about Muslim women, that they will also have that information at their fingertips. We’ve written the book in such a way that . . . they are key takeaways. All your key takeaways are really easy for you to take away that key thing and say, “That’s just not true,” because we Muslims have written it and we’ve done a lot of research, so everything is supported. It’s external, but it’s internal, and internally we have to educate ourselves. That’s very important. ABBASI: A question from the audience is, “The hate crimes are on the rise. What can be done to reduce them against Muslims and all groups that have been targeted?” KHAN: I think that Americans are not aware that the majority of us who are confronted by hate crimes directly, like the Jewish community, the Muslim community, the African-American community, the Asian community know these statistics, but majority of Americans don’t. In fact, they

don’t even know what’s going on. They just discovered white supremacy existed while all of us were confronted by white supremacists for a long time. Now there is a national awareness that there is a real threat from within. That is why I think it’s important for every American now to learn this information and to bring these facts to bear. ABBASI: What an incredible journey you’ve had so far. What is next for you? KHAN: Well, I think that the red boxing gloves are out, because we have a lot of work to do on many fronts. My work is no longer just the work I’m doing with women around the world. My work is here in the homeland too, because if this homeland comes apart, and we have seen this in the last four years of what it did to the world when America comes apart, the world comes apart. So, we have to keep our home base safe, and we have to create peace in this country. Then, we also have to, in tandem, work with other nations, because there are so many people looking to connect with one another to create a different way of doing things. So, my plate is full, but I’m always open to anything else that somebody throws my way. I believe that from my own spiritual tradition, I think that I’m just a container. And if God wants to send something my way and make space in my life for that, I will accept that. I don’t have any real grand plans. I just go along with what I think is necessary at that moment and what I think my new charge is. And that comes, it shows up. It has a way of showing up. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

TikTok Star Nick Cho: Your Korean Dad

MICHELLE MEOW: It’s tradition here that we ask for a coming out story to normalize the idea of being LGBTQIA+ with our allies, if you will. NICK CHO: Coming out story, most definitely. There is that relationship between personal identity and the community, like people in your community acknowledging you and how you see yourself. I’m 47 now; [I will] be 48 later this year. Year of the ox, this is my year. But I took a year off from college back in 1993 and I taught music at a missionary school in Bangladesh. When I was there, they didn’t understand what a Korean American was. I said, “I’m a Korean American.” They said, “You got to choose one. You can’t be both.” I worked with a group that was from Korea. So for them there I was the American guy, and for everyone else who lived in Bangladesh, the Bangladeshi, for folks there, I was the Chinese guy. For some of the other expats who were there, I was seen as Korean. I remember spending a lot of time thinking about what it means in terms of your own identity and how that relates to [how] if your whole community around you doesn’t understand what that means, then what is that like? So I’ve tried my best to sort of figure out that right mix of being able to empathize and understand the experience of other people whose experiences are very different from mine, but using the lens or pathway of my own experiences.

That idea of identity, of how that feels, is something I think a lot about. And I see people out there just everyday struggling with that in so many ways, depending on where they are, what their community looks like. Either that’s a relatively easy thing or it’s really hard, you know? JOHN ZIPPERER: So, 2.7 million-plus people know you as “Your Korean Dad.” Was this the first thing you tried to do on TikTok? Did you ever think it would explode, or did you think this would be something [only] you and your cousins would look at? CHO: I have two teenage daughters. They said, “You know, you should really check out TikTok, because you like to make videos.” There’s something about short-form video that is a very intimate experience. And I saw that a lot of people, especially young people, were curling up in their bed watching videos. It’s the kind of thing you might take into the bathroom with you to kind of keep you company. I just thought to myself, “What could I make that would honor the intimacy of that space?” I think that in a lot of ways where there needs to be more balance in media is that it tends to be very transactional. What if people actually cared deeply in a way that a loved one might, with the health and wellbeing of the people who are seeing this stuff? That’s kind of where I proposed the problem for myself and started working on the solution. For me it was, “Well, I’m a dad and I’m Korean.” But I always say if there’s a secret sauce in there, it’s really the your part. That idea of, “I’m not just going to present myself, ta-dah, I’m a dad. I’m here, I’m going to do these things for you on the internet.” But offering myself up to the viewer saying, “I’m Your Korean Dad.” And here we are. Now, I’m here at The Commonwealth Club. MEOW: You’ve obviously struck a chord with so many people. Do you think that people are yearning for a dad? Tell us why you think so many people are drawn to you?

CHO: I don’t really know. I don’t think I can know. Part of what makes it hard to know is, I mean, 2.7 million-plus, that’s beyond unfathomable. It was unfathomable at 100,000. I try to make different things for different people in every video; understanding that is a little bit of the lingua franca of the [online] world. That straightforward, very linear sermon type sort of thing tends to be less appealing these days, especially for young people. So I kept thinking, “What are ways of having little subversive moments that point to things that are very intentional, things I want to signal?” Also, things that are just kind of cute and funny and kind of heartwarming. How can I mix all these things up in 30-, 45-second videos? And I guess I’m doing okay. ZIPPERER: Talk a bit about, if you would, did you learn fathering from your father? Are you like him, different from him? What did you learn from him? CHO: You can build trust and you can earn trust. You can’t demand it, but you can break it really easily. When you try to put it back together again, it’s not the same. I really recognized that as an important part of leadership on my end, especially when there are younger people who are looking up to me. When I had children and looked at how I needed to parent them, I realized that it was just that, but the stakes were even higher than they would be otherwise. My focus has been on never breaking trust, and trying to build trust through different experiences. We all have experiences with our parents or adult figures that you’ll never forget, that was very often painful, sometimes a really happy memory. If you ask the adult, they had no recollection of that interaction. As a parent now, that’s terrifying to me. That discrepancy is really terrifying. In a lot of ways I feel like it’s analogous to life in general. When we talk about being in a position of power and authority, and the impact that we can have on someone else, it can not even have crossed your mind. To me, that becomes

THE STORY OF HOW SOCIAL MEDIA CAN BE USED

to connect with and help guide young people. From the July 1, 2021, “Michelle Meow Show” program “TikTok Star Nick Cho: Your Korean Dad.” NICK CHO, Creator and Star, “Your Korean Dad,” TikTok; Co-Founder, Wrecking Ball Coffee Roasters; Twitter @NickCho; TikTok @yourkoreandad MICHELLE MEOW, Producer and Host, “The Michelle Meow Show,” KBCW/KPIX TV and Podcast; Member, Commonwealth Club Board of Governors; Twitter @msmichellemeow—Co-Host JOHN ZIPPERER, Producer and Host, Week to Week Political Roundtable; Vice President of Media & Editorial, The Commonwealth Club; Not Cool Enough to AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021 17 Be on TikTok—Co-Host

all about the responsibility of the powerful person to take even more time, more space, more mental energy, emotional energy on double checking, triple, quadruple checking in yourself before you do anything. The good news is that it gets easier with practice, but it’s never easy easy. It’s just that you get used to it. So that’s been sort of the thing for me. I think that in a lot of ways that comes through [in] the video content and a lot that I put out there. That intentionality and that care and every word [in it], I’m trying to be careful about it. MEOW: Speaking of being intentional and producing content, one thing that popped up in my mind was, Is this who he is as a real dad? Are you really Nick Cho from “Your Korean Dad,” or is it a personality? CHO: I asked my kids, and I’ve asked them multiple times like, “How do you feel about this?” Because people keep asking me this question. Their answer has basically been, “Well, they get the two-dimensional version of you, we get the three-dimensional version. But it is you.” That’s what they tell their friends as well. So, it’s snippets and such, but in a lot of ways yeah, it’s just me being myself. ZIPPERER: It certainly has been a year and more of a lot of Americans realizing there are millions and millions of their fellow Americans who have never had the experiences, rights or opportunities that they have. [Do] you want to talk about that in itself, as well as, how do you then address that? CHO: There’s a lot of value in normalizing

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these things and having these conversations out in the open. There hasn’t been a conversation around men and the role of men for a long time. A lot of men feel like, “There’s this growing list of all these things I’m not supposed to do, but no change to the things that I should do.” That’s an opportunity and a challenge in itself. Those are the things I want to talk about when it comes to race and the idea of tolerance. I think that there’s a lot of very human and sort of understandable reasons why people get intolerant. MEOW: Did you talk to your children about anti-Asian racism and violence, especially after the pandemic? Did you talk to them about anti-Blackness that we had witnessed and experienced, especially during this hard year? CHO: We didn’t have to talk about it in a special way this time, because frankly we’ve been talking about it this whole time. When it comes to like the anti-Asian violence, I’m still at this point really confused by a lot of it, just because there is the way that things happen out there and then there’s the ways that the media covers it. Then there’s the ways that we as the consumers, engage with all of that and the way that these things are interrelated. It makes things very confusing and a little bit harder to really get a sense of what’s really going on. When it came to, for instance, the Atlanta shooting and everything, it brought up a lot about a specific type of racism that’s directed

Photos, this page: Nick Cho on-stage at the Club’s Taube Family Auditorium. Facing page: Cho and co-host Michelle Meow during the program, discussing his collection of sneakers.

“I started getting videos of people, young people, watching [my] video and crying, tears streaming down their face. They were saying things like, ‘Is this what it’s like to have a dad?’” —NICK CHO

at east-Asian women and Asian American women. Those are things that we’ve been talking about in our household for a while. When it comes to Black Lives Matter and a lot of the anti-Black sentiment and violence and such, that has been this lifelong journey, trying to figure out how I fit into this conversation around race, because race is such an important conversation in America. How do I as a Korean American, cis, het man fit into that? What do I have to offer? And maybe most important, what are the things that I don’t see modeled out there that I still need to do? That has a lot to do with sort of my calling as a leader in the community. Really bringing up these topics and raising these things that other people aren’t, because we’re social animals and kind of waiting for someone to prompt us like, “Oh yeah, me too. I feel that too. I feel that on Instagram too,” kind of thing. “I’ll use that hashtag too.” There are people who have to come up with that stuff and really help sort of challenge ourselves and each other in terms of how we talk about it. So that, all said, is a long-winded way of saying, “We’ve been talking about it this whole time.” ZIPPERER: Doing a TikTok video, what they always ask a creator is like, “Where do you get your ideas?” How do you come up with an idea for one? Do people constantly suggest them for you? And how much time do you escape from running the company to do a video? Take us through the creation of a TikTok video. CHO: I have the curse/luxury of being a generally undisciplined person when it comes to time management. So for me it becomes really figuring out ways of kind of letting inspiration just hit me. It’ll be something that I saw online or something that’s happening that will just kind of be that sort of speck of dust that then becomes the snowflake. I’m also a little bit bashful to say that I’m pretty fast at making videos. I don’t try to take too much time. I feel like TikTok is really perfect for me, that it doesn’t necessarily reward a really high production value. I know a few people who are professional filmmakers who struggle to sort of gain traction on TikTok, because for them it’s like they’re trying to get this perfect. It’s not really part of the culture, because of that intimacy part that I mentioned before. So, from an idea all the way to posting it, I mean, it can be as little as 45 minutes to an hour. The editing can take a few minutes, but again, that’s really fast. And yeah, some of them can take longer than others, but most of

the time it doesn’t take that long. I always tell people that TikTok is interesting. If anyone wants to get started on TikTok, you should. It’s an interesting experience making those videos. Because they’re so short, they don’t involve a ton of work, and almost everyone has a phone that you can make a video on. TikTok is short-form video that’s frontloaded. There has to be something at the beginning that grabs people’s attention that makes them want to keep watching it. I think that we’re going to see in our culture more of an optimization toward that sort of thing in commercials and things like that. When we have more ability to swipe away and go to the next one with a literal flick of the finger, how you get people’s attention is going to be a growing sort of value that is a make-or-break for a lot of people’s work and communication. ZIPPERER: Is there an actual time limit on TikTok, or is it just kind of known that the longer you go on the less people are going to watch it? CHO: Yeah, it used to be one minute. They changed it to three minutes, I think now, but most people don’t make TikToks longer than a minute. It’s just little, it’s like, instead of having a big plate of food, it’s like having little bites. And then you go to the next one and you go to the next one. It’s just a different way. MEOW: Some of your most viewed videos include your fetish for sneakers. And I did notice these awesome sneakers. Jordans, right? CHO: Yes. MEOW: And they’ve got the South Korean flag.

CHO: That’s right. I wanted to honor the stage with one of my favorite pairs of sneakers. These are some limited edition Korean flag Jordan 3s. It brings people together. The number of conversations that have been prompted by a pair of sneakers that I wore, and just those nice sort of moments where people are complimenting each other on their taste, on their choices, people will start to share a story. That’s really special. So to kind of have that through your footwear feels like magic every time. And it really drives my passion for sneakers. ZIPPERER: And how many pairs do you have? CHO: Too many, more pairs of sneakers than I have pairs of feet. ZIPPERER: Again, 2.7 million followers. Do you hear from them? Are they like, “You’re the father I never had,” or “You’re giving me that kind of advice.” Are people criticizing you? What sort of feedback do you get? CHO: One of the features on the TikTok platform is a thing called duets. Someone can make a video that’s like a double screen with your video on the other side, interacting with it in some way. I started getting videos of people, young people watching the video and crying, tears streaming down their face. Looking at the captions and comments, they were saying things like, “Is this what it’s like to have a dad?” That’s when it really struck me that there was a whole dimension that I hadn’t really considered. Through all of this, I do get a lot of AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

messages. I get a lot of emails, I get letters, things show up; and it’s its own sort of thing learning how to sort of deal with more correspondence than any single human being can actually respond to or react to. I do try to read everything that comes in. Some are very long and share life stories. A lot of them are sharing very painful stories of trauma, of abuse, of violence, of just some of the stuff that really just took my breath away for the rest of the day, that took a while to recover from. Some that have made me cry—a bunch of them actually. But that’s where I really try to focus on the idea that I’m so thankful that they have a place to kind of put that and to send it. I try to put out there that I do read everything that comes in, and how to sort of be super human in that way, to be able to have those kind of connections beyond what really makes logical sense. It’s very special. And I try my best to honor that every time. ZIPPERER: Do you know where your audience is? CHO: It’s not in Korea. It’s mostly in the United States, UK, Canada, Australia, English-speaking places. The platform actually has analytics that’ll tell you a little

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bit. But all over the world, all over the world. Again, it’s hard to wrap your brain around. ZIPPERER: Question from the audience, please? AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Hello, thank you for being here. This is really wonderful to hear. It’s completely new to me, TikTok, number one, and you’re explaining it very well, so thank you. Did you grow up watching, are you at all influenced by Fred Rogers? CHO: Oh, wow. That’s a great, great, great question. Three greats. Yes, Fred Rogers is probably my number one hero of my life. I have a slightly different experience with Mr. Rogers from most people. For most folks he’s seen as being very kind and sweet. I see him as really fierce, really aggressive in all the right ways. He was absolutely uncompromising in terms of his singular focus on the health and wellbeing of children. He didn’t care what was popular, he just cared about what was healthy. That’s radical, and he’s not remembered enough for that sort of radical courage and that vision, for having that focus. I get compared to him from time to time. And I think that there’s something emotional that maybe is conveyed that we have in common. Maybe it’s a little bit voice, maybe

it’s a little bit like just being, looking at the camera and saying things to people that maybe they needed to hear. Taking that time and attention and really trying to craft it the best I can, my messaging. I see that part in common and I do feel like I want to honor that comparison. It’s not really a legacy so much as just a comparison. I said this once on Twitter a week ago when I was thinking about this very topic of Mr. Rogers, “One of the best ways you can honor your heroes is to do the work that they were unable to do, but maybe they would have if they were born when you were born and then they had the opportunities that you did.” I hope I can do a little bit of that. Thanks for the question. AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: And the second one, well, I grew up in the Bay Area, and it has a very rich Asian community. And so this current racism against Asians, do you experience it in the Bay Area? CHO: I experience it in America, and Bay Area is part of America. It’s being discussed recently, but it’s been going on for a long time. Some of my earliest memories are my family and a couple of families getting together, going out to the public park. I grew up in Northern Virginia, outside of Washington, D.C., in the ’70s and the ’80s. Going to the park for a picnic, and then, I’m sure it wasn’t exactly this, but my memory of it is an entire white family of seven or eight people all joining together in a course of racist taunts from an adjoining picnic area. And it wasn’t once or twice, it was pretty often. In a lot of ways within the Asian American community the recent news has been an opportunity to kind of revisit a lot of that stuff. Especially some of the memories that maybe we would have suppressed or didn’t want to talk about. It’s still to be determined the outcome of the current discourse and awareness, because very often it really becomes, this terrible thing is mentioned, everyone shakes their heads and tsk-tsks at this terrible thing, and commits to themselves that, “I would never do such a thing.” And then everything just moves on from there. That’s where we have to do better. We have to graduate from that to a different level where we understand that there is a responsibility when we say that we’re a nation of immigrants. There’s a big responsibility to that claim. And we’re not living up to it right now, but we could. AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Hi, great to have you at the Club. I’m curious, as TikTok kind of takes over social media and young people’s minds these days, what kind of advice do you have for young people? Not even just as a dad,

Photos, previous page: During the program, questions came from audience members in the room, on YouTube, and from the online “Zoom Gallery” of members. This page: Meow, Cho and Zipperer on stage.

“For most folks, [Mr. Rogers is] seen as being very kind and sweet. I see him as really fierce, really aggressive in all the right ways. He was absolutely uncompromising in terms of his singular focus on the health and wellbeing of children.” —NICK CHO

but just advice for young people in general as social media has kind of taken over our world? CHO: When my kids were coming up, I watched a lot of other parents withholding it from them and preventing their kids from accessing it. I thought to myself, “I’d rather figure out how to help them get good at it.” I don’t mean good at it, meaning a lot of followers or whatever. But to have a healthy relationship with it, because it is here, and it’s a thing that’s going to continue to develop. Sort of a general advice is this idea that what you intend to put out there is not the end of the story of that thing. That the ways that people see it, hear it, experience it, process it, might hit other folks in a way that you didn’t intend. But you have to know that that’s how it goes when you put something out into the world. MEOW: What do you think is the future of “Your Korean Dad”? Do you have some plans that you could share with us? And will you always kind of ride this internet fame until the very end? I don’t know what the end is. CHO: It’s hard to call them plans. It’s more like an exploration of sorts. I have my potential and the opportunities ahead of me, and we’ll see what happens. ZIPPERER: So, what ideas do you reject? What do you think would not work for your particular TikTok videos? CHO: That’s a great question. I get hundreds of thousands of views per video, and sometimes thousands, if not tens of thousands of comments. People will ask things like, “Teach me how to use chopsticks. Or teach

me more Korean,” and things like that. It is dehumanizing. And it does sort of reduce somebody who’s offering themselves out there and sharing. I’m sharing my talents, my gifts, myself with you. And then when people start talking on that like, “Give me this,” “Dance this way for me,” I try to gently remind people about how that’s not a good, healthy place to go. Not for me, not for you, not for everyone. MEOW: [If people said to you,] Dad, we’re getting out of this pandemic. It was really scary. Thank you so much for being there and guiding us and leading us, but I’m still feeling unsure. I feel like I don’t know who I am or what I’m doing or what I’m supposed to do, and everything’s changing around me. Can you help me, just guide me? CHO: It’s been a really hard time. I was watching our first in-theater movie a few days ago, and one of those little trailer commercials came on and it was talking about a global pandemic. My brain just went, “Oh my goodness, we’re in a global pandemic. This actually happened.” Being in the theater made it even more just wild and unfathomable, because we’re used to seeing these fictional stories play out and we’ve just been living through a fictional story, but it was real. It’s okay that you don’t know what to do. It’s okay that it was hard, because it is and it was. I think that when you look around, there’s a lot of messaging out there that you’re supposed to be okay, you’re supposed to be happy, smile more. None of that stuff’s fair. You’re doing your best; I see it, and I’m proud of you. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

Annette Gordon-Reed

ON JUNETEENTH

PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING

historian and Texas native Annette Gordon-Reed chronicles the country’s long road to Juneteenth, recounting its origins in Texas and the enormous hardships that African Americans have endured from Reconstruction through Jim Crow and beyond. From the June 9, 2021, online program “Annette Gordon-Reed: On Juneteenth.” Part of our Good Lit series, underwritten by the Bernard Osher Foundation. ANNETTE GORDON-REED, Carl M. Loeb University Professor, Harvard University; Author, On Juneteenth In conversation with Judge LADORIS CORDELL, (Ret). LADORIS CORDELL: It is my pleasure to welcome Annette Gordon-Reed, author of On Juneteenth. Annette is a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Carl M. Loeb Professor at Harvard University. As a Texas native and descendant of enslaved people brought to Texas as early as the 1820s, Annette chronicles our country’s long and

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ongoing journey to ensure freedom and equality for all. Welcome. ANNETTE GORDON-REED: Glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me. CORDELL: In your book you write, “Texas, more than any state in the Union, has always embodied nearly every major aspect of the story of the United States. It is the American story told from this most American place.” What exactly do you mean by that? GORDON-REED: I mean Texas has all of the kinds of things that America has struggled with, within the confines of the state. There’s westward expansion, conflict between Native peoples and Europeans, plantation slavery, Jim Crow after the end of plantation slavery. It borders another country, so immigration is an issue. It was a republic. It’s all there, and it makes it a very, very volatile place. Even though it seems to be exotic and very different from the rest of America, it has all of these components of America right there. CORDELL: I loved, in the book, the way that you intertwined your own story with the story that builds up toward Juneteenth, so let’s talk a little bit about your upbringing in the town of Conroe, Texas. If you could tell us about your parents and how their

views impacted your public school education that resulted in you integrating your town’s schools. And really, what kind of parents would have you do that? What was their thinking? And what was the experience like for you? GORDON-REED: Okay. I was born in Livingston, Texas, about 50 miles northeast of Conroe. My parents moved to Conroe when I was about six months old. My mother got a job teaching at Booker T. Washington, the Black school in the community, K-12. My father had a store, and he did a number of things trying to be an entrepreneur at the time. They moved to Conroe, and with my two older brothers I went to the Black school, we should call it, when I was in kindergarten. By the time I was going to the first grade, Texas had come up with something called the Freedom of Choice Plan. And it wasn’t just Texas; other jurisdictions in the South had this too. It was a way of trying to get around the decision in Brown v. Board of Education. This is like 10 years after that. Under the Freedom of Choice Plan, white parents would choose white schools and Black parents would choose Black schools, so that everybody was

going to live according to those traditions. My parents decided that they were not going to choose the Black school, that they would send me to a white school, Anderson Elementary School. They made this decision . . . well, and I’ve said that their rationale for doing that kind of changed over time as they became disillusioned with the effects of integration, disappointed when whatever transformation they thought was going to happen didn’t come to fruition. Their reasons became more pragmatic. They’d say, “Well, we sent you to this school because we knew that the court would eventually strike down Freedom of Choice Plans, that it would be unconstitutional and everybody would have to change schools.” This is what they said later on. But thinking back to that time period and remembering how they talked about this, remembering how other people responded to this, it’s almost as if, in their disappointment, they did not want to admit that they had been idealistic, so it became a pragmatic decision. This is great for a historian, thinking about the past and how people’s understandings about things sometimes legitimately change over time, or they alter them. It becomes a different rationale in their mind, and then they think they had it all along. It all worked for me because I loved school. I loved reading, and I loved to learn. So the actual work that we were doing was pleasant to me. It was something that I liked. But there was this social overlay about integration that was always there, that I was always aware of it. It’s not a national story, but some of it, it’s a big deal in that area to have done that. It was certainly a big deal for me and probably shaped me in ways that I’ve had to think about. Again, back to this question: After I had my kids, would I do that, and I’m not sure. CORDELL: What makes your storytelling so rich is the fact that you’re not only a historian, but you’re also a lawyer. Why did you go to law school?

Historian Annette Gordon-Reed.

GORDON-REED: It was partly to please my father. It was partly because I knew that lawyers could make a difference in the world. And, again, this too; my history is tied up in law. I thought that this was a way to make a living while I took the opportunity to try to make things better for people. So that’s why

“It’s almost as if, in their disappointment, they didn’t want to admit that they had been idealistic, so it became a pragmatic decision.”

I went to law school. CORDELL: As a result, your descriptions of court cases that impacted the lives of Black people in Texas, they’re really riveting. One example is your telling of the 1940 case of Texas v. White that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. So Bob White, a Black man, had been accused of raping a white woman in Livingston, Texas. That’s where you were born. The woman was unable to identify him as the rapist, after viewing 15 Black men rounded up by law enforcement, but [she] did I.D. Mr. White after the cops told him to say the words that the woman attributed to her assailant. He was arrested. He was jailed, and he was taken by the Texas Rangers every night for a week, chained to a tree and beaten until he signed a confession, even though he couldn’t read or write and he had no lawyer. A jury convicted him and imposed the death sentence. He appealed, and was granted a new trial that was moved to Conroe, where you were subsequently raised. He was again convicted, and this time the appeal goes to the U.S. Supreme Court. So could you take it from there? GORDON-REED: The Court rules that taking somebody outside, tying them to the tree and whipping them until they confess was a violation of the due process clause, and they send the case back down. I did not know that this case had gone to the Supreme Court. My grandfather used to talk about Bob White when I was a little girl, and so I knew about Bob White. He knew Bob White. He knew the Cochrans, the woman that Bob White allegedly raped, and the husband of the woman, called Dude Cochran. So the case goes back down for trial. While it’s going on, Dude Cochran comes into the courthouse and shoots Bob White in the back of the head, killing him instantly. [Cochran] hands the gun to some official. He’s later tried for this and acquitted in just a few minutes, and the courtroom erupts in

AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

applause. So here is the situation where the person [committed] premeditated murder, shot someone in front of [a] packed courthouse, and he gets off. This really breaks the spirit of people, because procedurally there were people who were protesting this. It got to the Supreme Court, and the Court said, “You can’t do this,” and sent it back down, so people may have thought that the system of justice might actually work. But then to have him killed in this way and have nothing happen to his assailant was just really, really rough for people. There are people in my family who refused to spend the night in Conroe. They would come to visit but then they would go. I think it was almost like a protest, that they didn’t want to spend the night in a place where something like that could happen. The purpose of the chapter, the things that I’m talking about, is that these kinds of things seep into the culture, a cultural memory to the way people do things in a society, and you can’t just erase that. I mean, law can be changed. But on the ground, the culture and traditions and attitudes can persist. In a town with a culturally embedded memory about violence and the possibility of violence that will not be punished, I think it affected everybody. Even if things were against the law, traditions and cultural memories and understandings die hard. Having said that, I had a good time

growing up. We rode bikes when the summer came, when school was out. Take your shoes off. That’s it until you go to church or go into town or something like that. I had a good childhood, because my parents cared about me, and I had my brothers, and I took piano lessons. I did all the kinds of things that kids do, but there was this tension because of the racial situation; you knew that at any moment if you got too far out of line or anybody else got too far out of line, then it could be a real problem there. You can have happiness and a sense of peace, but at the same time at the back of your mind, you can understand that this can all go awry with a spark. CORDELL: As we move toward Juneteenth discussion, I want to talk about documents. The first one I want to ask you to talk about is the Texas Declaration of Independence. You write in your book, “I often encounter great hesitancy about and impatience with discussing race when talking about American past. The obvious difficulty with those kinds of complaints is that people in the past, in the overall American context and the specific context of Texas, talked a lot about and did a lot about race. It isn’t some newly discovered fad topic. Race is right there in the documents, official and personal.” And you conclude: “It would take a concerted effort not to consider and analyze the subject.” So the Texas Declaration of Independence, talk to us about that and why that is significant. GORDON-REED: Well, they wanted to

President joe Biden signs a bill making Juneteenth a federal holiday. (White House photo.)

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“Even if things were against the law, traditions and cultural memories and understandings die hard.” imitate what had happened in the United States and wanted to have a statement as to why they wanted to break away from Mexico, so it follows the form that Jefferson chose for the American Declaration. It starts off talking about the difficulty that they had with the Mexican government and then lists grievances just like the American Declaration, but it curiously leaves out, “We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.” They don’t include it because they repudiate that idea, that all men are created equal, and didn’t want a part of it because they understood that it gave people ideas. African American people believed that they were equal human beings before Jefferson put those words in the Declaration, but those words had influenced people and even further, might influence them to action. So they don’t put that in there. Their constitution talks specifically about slavery and it talks about race. So it’s just a little bit hard for me to understand how you’re going to talk about the Texas republic without talking about its constitution. Once we note the absence in the Texas Declaration about equality and you look at the constitution, you have to talk about race. It invites discussions about race. So I’m interested to see what people are going to do with this, with the 1836 Project [a legislative initiative to teach Texas history], and in the future. I don’t want to single Texas out only, but it’s a big state and people pay attention to it. In other states as well, there is a reaction to a more inclusive, and they would say critical, history in different places. This notion of patriotic education, which people define or

seem to be defining, is only talking about things that make us happy or make us proud. It’s something that I think we have to push back against, because there’s no benefit in hiding things from people. The things that I’m talking about are not hidden. It’s not a matter of interpretation. They’re right there in the documents, and it would be doing a disservice to students if you did not acknowledge that. CORDELL: Let’s get to June 19, 1865. Gordon Granger, a general in the U.S. Army, arrives in Galveston, Texas, and he’s carrying with him General Order No. 3. Because of your book, this was the first time I’d read General Order No. 3, which is just four sentences. So I’d like you to talk to us about the immediate and long-term impact on Texans of all hues about this order, and I’m just going to read the four sentences. “General Order No. 3. The people of Texas are informed that in accordance with the Proclamation from the Executive of the United States,” meaning the president, “all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and hired labor. The freedmen are advised to remain at their present homes and work for wages. They are informed that they will be allowed to collect at military posts and they will not be supported in idleness, either there or elsewhere.” So talk to us about this order. GORDON-REED: The traditional story is that he read those words from the balcony of the villa where he was staying. Some people say that his soldiers went around Galveston, which was the major city in Texas at the time. He probably did both. He could’ve done both. But the truth is some people knew before he got there what he was intending to say, what was going to happen. Enslaved people are jubilant, very happy about this, and the whites are not so happy about it. There are stories about people who were whipped when they celebrated the news of emancipation, but they kept doing it anyway. Over the years, there were celebrations at people’s homes, at churches and so forth. The Freedmen’s Bureau sponsored some Juneteenth celebrations as well. In 1876, some Black men in Houston pooled their resources and bought land for the specific purposes of hosting Juneteenth celebrations. People would come and give speeches, sing

songs, make food and talk about what had happened, remember what had happened. That eventually became Emancipation Park, which is still in Houston today, where I have been to Juneteenth celebrations as a kid when we weren’t celebrating at home or at my grandmother’s house. CORDELL: So there is, as you noted, a move afoot in Texas to ban or limit the role of slavery and the impact of racism that can be taught in the schools. A law has already passed the [state] House that would limit teacher-led discussions of current events, prohibit course credit for “political activism or lobbying, including volunteering for civil rights groups, and ban teaching of the 1619 Project.” Another proposed law would create a committee to promote patriotic education about the state’s secession from Mexico in 1836 and limit how teachers can discuss the ways racism influences the legal system in Texas. Another would block exhibits at the Alamo from explaining the major figures in the Texas revolution were slave owners. What is this and what is to be done? GORDON-REED: People don’t want to be made to feel bad about things that people whom they consider to be their ancestors did, but they did these things. These things happened. Nobody’s pretending that there was slavery in Texas when there wasn’t. Nobody’s pretending that there was not a conflict with Mexico over the issue of slavery. There were other reasons why they separated, but that was one of them. That was clearly one of the things that was galvanizing them. So it’s misplaced guilt. You could easily say, “Yes, they made mistakes. They had some good things that they did, but they made mistakes, and we’re going to go forward from that.” But this is an effort to say, “No. No mistakes were made. There were no problems.” And

you can’t do that without denying the history and the heritage of, say, my family. Am I supposed to pretend that my great-greatgreat-grandparents were not enslaved? Am I supposed to say that that was an okay thing? It’s unrealistic and I think it’s a reaction. It’s out of fear. CORDELL: How do you observe Juneteenth today? GORDON-REED: Well, I live in an apartment, so I can’t barbecue. I try to drink red soda water. We usually purchase barbecued brisket. I look at pictures, remembering. I know I’m going to be talking to people all day pretty much, but it’s more food related. It’s the soul food and the red soda water and thinking about my family. COR DELL: A nother way to spend Juneteenth, obviously, is reading your book, because it’s just a wonderful context in which to place all of this. How do you feel about it possibly becoming a national holiday? I mean, it’s something that happened in Texas. GORDON-REED: Well, I think it’s a good idea. I think there should be a day to commemorate Emancipation, which was not just an event in Black people’s lives. It was an event in the lives of the country, an event in the lives of the world. I would hope that the day would bring an impetus for education and it wouldn’t just be a day of red soda water and barbecue, but a time when people were taught about Emancipation and the struggle that came afterward. I think it’s backward-looking in some ways. As commemoration, we’re looking to the past, but I think the people who actually were in that time were thinking about the future, what they had to do next. And that’s a meaningful message, I think, for us as well, not just about the past but what we have to do next. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER 2021

INSIGHT

DR. GLORIA C. DUFFY, PRESIDENT AND CEO

Facing History and Ourselves

here has been renewed reflection, recently, about the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. Was it necessary? Was it ethical? What ongoing damage did it cause to our Japanese American community? The Commonwealth Club has a story to tell about the relocation and internment of U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry during the second world war. Sharing the Club’s history may help in the continued examination of this important topic. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, on the recommendation of the officer in charge of the Western Defense Command, General John DeWitt, on February 19, 1942 the Roosevelt administration issued Executive Order 9066. It authorized the secretary of war to set up areas of exclusion within the United States for anyone deemed to be a national security threat. Concern was a possible fifth column or spying for the Axis powers during the war. On March 21, 1942, Congress passed Public Law 503, allowing the military to enforce Executive Order 9066. The West Coast of the United States was deemed to be an exclusion area for Japanese-Americans, and to a lesser degree, for Italian-Americans and German-Americans. First voluntary, then forced, relocation and internment followed, moving 120,000 American citizens and residents of Japanese ancestry to 10 inland camps in Arizona, Utah, California, Wyoming, Colorado and Arkansas. In the months following Pearl Harbor, the Roosevelt administration took steps to obtain public support for the relocation and internment policy. General DeWitt and other officials spoke to chambers of commerce, labor unions, veteran’s groups, service clubs and public forums, particularly on the West Coast. One of the groups they addressed was The Commonwealth Club. The Club was located in San Francisco, where the Presidio, headquarters of the Western Defense Command, was based. Since the WDC was responsible for many of the relocation orders, a number of those responsible for the internment stepped onto the Club’s platform. In 1942 and 1943, the Club heard speeches supporting wartime relocation from Lt. Colonel Wallace Moore; Dillon S. Myer, director of the war relocation agency; Army Col. Karl Bendetson, Captain George Grandstaff, and others. By 1944 and 1945, we know that the Club was hearing from those who questioned the internment policy. One of the most famous speeches at the Club during World War II was by Ben Kuroki, a Japanese-American war hero, in 1944. He received a standing ovation at the Club after talking about intolerance and saying that Japanese Americans were entitled to the same rights that Jefferson propounded and for which Washington fought. A Hollywood entertainer, Joe E. Brown, gave a speech to the

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Club in 1945 after he returned from entertaining the troops in Europe, in which he criticized the internment. But by 1944 and 1945, the decisions about relocation had been made and the policy had been implemented. The question arises, did the Club make an effort, early in the war, to amplify voices questioning the relocation and internment policy? Over the past several decades, Photo by James Meinerth the Club has devoted considerable attention to the internment and its aftermath. This has included holding forums on the civil rights, ethics, legal and justice implications of the relocation. There have been several presentations at the Club about the Korematsu case. Fred Korematsu was a Japanese American who defied the internship order. Represented by the ACLU, he filed a suit over the evacuation and incarceration that went to the U.S. Supreme Court. Lillian Nakagawa, the volunteer chair of the Club’s Asia-Pacific Member-Led Forum, has organized a number of these forums over the years, including presentations by Fred’s daughter, Dr. Karen Korematsu. We have hosted personal reflections about being interned, including by actor George Takei, former Transportation and Commerce Secretary Norm Mineta, poet and playwright Hiroshi Kashiwagi, and former congressman Mike Honda. The Club has presented several of its California Book Awards to works about the internment, including The Great Betrayal by Audrie Girdner and Anne Loftis and a children’s book about the internment, A Jar of Dreams, by Yoshiko Uchida. On our YouTube channel, there is a playlist on “The Japanese-American Experience During World War II.” In thinking about what more we can do to help us as an organization and our nation to assess the internment, the first step is to share what we know about our history, and to explore it further through documentary records. For example, we know that Ernest Besig, head of the ACLU of Northern California, who sued on behalf of Fred Korematsu, was a Commonwealth Club member. We have not yet found any evidence that his voice, or the voices of others opposed to the internment, were heard at the Club early in the war. If they weren’t, why not? Beyond that, the questions surrounding public debate about the internment policy early in the war underline another critical point. As we move forward, it is so important to ensure that we foster a wide range of views and voices, even if they are unpopular at the time.

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WEEK TO WEEK

Political roundtable paired with a preprogram social. COMMONWEALTHCLUB.ORG/W2W

TICKETS Prepayment is required. Unless otherwise indicated, all events—including “Members Free” events—require tickets. In-person programs often sell out, so we strongly encourage you to purchase tickets in advance. Due to heavy call volume, we urge you to purchase tickets online at commonwealthclub.org; or call (415) 597-6705. Please note: All ticket sales are final. Please arrive at least 10 minutes prior to any program. Select events include premium seating, which refers to the first several rows of seating. Pricing is subject to change. AUGUST/SEPTEMBER AU G U ST/SE P T E M B E R2021 2021

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SAND DUNES, CANYONS & WILDFLOWERS

March 13 -18, 2022 With our expert naturalist guide, explore Badwater Salt Flats and Ubehebe Crater. Marvel at the panoramic views of Telescope Peak. Watch the sunrise at Zabriskie Point and walk between the multihued walls of Golden Canyon. Learn about the resilient desert pupfish and wildflowers. Stay at the Oasis at Death Valley.

Details at commonwealthclub.org/travel

| 415.597.6720

travel@commonwealthclub.org CST: 2096889-40

The Commonwealth August/September 2021

Articles inside

Program Info

American Muslims

On Juneteenth

Your Korean Dad

Editor’s Desk

InSight

Black Smoke

The Myths of Meno pause